March 12, 2025 • 58 mins
The episode questions LDS Church leaders' biblical literacy, focusing on the eighth Article of Faith, which doubts the Bible’s accuracy while affirming the Book of Mormon. The hosts critique the LDS reliance on the KJV and contrast traditional pastoral training with the corporate backgrounds of Mormon leaders, arguing this leads to scriptural misinterpretation. They highlight doctrinal discrepancies, particularly regarding marriage and priesthood authority, emphasizing Hebrews 5:4, which affirms Jesus as the sole High Priest. A speaker shares their exit from Mormonism, realizing LDS teachings contradict biblical Christianity. The episode urges LDS members to read the Bible in context, recognizing Mormonism as a different gospel.
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Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/share/g/kxt1hS692rDMcJi8/
Website: https://jesusformormons.com/
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:01):
Welcome to another episode of Jesus for Mormons. Die, I
have a question for you. Okay, are Mormon leaders I'm
talking about the prophet and apostles, are they biblically ignorant?
Speaker 2 (00:21):
I don't know how to answer that question, but I'm
excited to explore the topic and maybe our readers can
also listeners can come to a conclusion with us. Wow journey.
Speaker 1 (00:34):
Okay, well, let's go ahead and have this conversation. I
am going to make the case today that I do
believe that Mormon leadership is biblically ignorant.
Speaker 2 (00:45):
Hot take.
Speaker 1 (00:47):
I didn't cross my words. But let's let's hear what
the first prophet of quote unquote prophet of the Church
of Jesus Christ of Latter day Saints. It wasn't called
that back then, Joseph Smith said in the eighth Article
of Faith. So the idea behind the articles of faith
(01:07):
is that Joseph Smith was asked what his beliefs were,
and he gave these thirteen articles of faith. The eighth
one is, we believe the Bible to be the Word
of God as far as it is translated correctly. We
also believe the Book of Mormon to be the word
(01:28):
of God, all right, So we believe the Bible to
be the Word of God as far as it is
translated correctly.
Speaker 2 (01:36):
I have heard that over the years, and I have
so many questions.
Speaker 1 (01:41):
I'm curious, what questions do you have as a pastor
for thirty some odd years or however long you've done it.
What questions do you have?
Speaker 2 (01:49):
Well, I mean I could pop off a few. What
standard of measurement are you using to determine whether or
not it's translated accurately? Who's determining that, and what are
their dentials? What source material are they looking at, and
who's deciding whether or not the Book of Mormon has
been translated or recorded correctly, Because as far as I understand,
(02:11):
there are were a decent amount of errors in that
book when it was first written down transcribed, even though
it was written correct me if I'm wrong, written down
because the Bible had errors, and so we needed a
book without errors, and the one that was supposed to
have no errors had way more.
Speaker 1 (02:29):
Well, I would say, uh, I would say, There's only
one statement that I would say is maybe a little
off from a Mormon perspective. It's that the Bible was
written because there were errors or the Book of Mormon
was written because they were errors. From a Mormon perspective,
it would be the Book of Mormon is another testament
(02:50):
of Jesus Christ, so it's a companion scripture to the Bible,
as a Mormon.
Speaker 2 (02:57):
Would view it accurate to say that, but that that
companion book is more accurate than what it's a companion to.
Speaker 1 (03:07):
Oh So, in the introduction to the Book of Mormon,
it says that the Book of Mormon is the most
correct out of any book on earth. Okay, so there's
the Bible is also a book, so they're saying it
is more more correct than the Bible.
Speaker 2 (03:28):
Okay, you see your wording got really fairly good job.
Good job holding back your own thoughts and just stating
it factually.
Speaker 1 (03:37):
Okay. Yeah, I could have a tendency to go a
little nuclear, but I think it's really important to talk
about this eighth Article of Faith because it says that
we believe the Bible to be the Word of God
as far as is translated correctly, and I really want
to stick to that. And Mormons, members of the Church
(03:58):
of Jesus Christ of Latter Day saying read from the
King James version of the Bible almost exclusively, and I
think it's important to say, is that the best translation
of the Bible? Die is shaking her head. No. I
(04:20):
went through and did kind of research outside of Die,
and I've heard it said this is my opinion, Die,
and I would love to hear yours, because I'm sure
it's much better than mine. I've heard that it is
a decent translation, that like word for word, it's actually
not that bad. But because it was written in sixteen eleven,
(04:45):
the language is so hard, like your Companion to the
King James version of the Bible better be a Webster's
Dictionary or the equivalent of from sixteen eleven, so you
can actually understand what it's saying.
Speaker 2 (05:04):
Yes, yeah, I mean I think that's the best summary.
It's Is it the best translation? Me shaking my head.
Speaker 1 (05:12):
No.
Speaker 2 (05:12):
Doesn't mean it's an inaccurate translation. It's just not the
best translation for you and I today to understand what
on earth it's saying. Yeah, it's it's our it's archaic language.
Speaker 1 (05:26):
Yeah, And that's and that's really what I came out
of it from. I was I was thinking about how
many times i'd probably been through the Old and New
Testament as a Mormon, and I probably have been through
it six or seven times, but the language is so tricky,
like especially in like the Pauline epistles, right, you get
(05:48):
in there and you're just like, what is paul even
talking about? Like it's very it's very hard in that
old English language to do that. And so I look
at how probably a lot of members of the church
past and present, you know, the ex Mormon world, how
(06:09):
they probably look at the Bible and they're like, well,
I think I understand it. I've read it, but you're
reading it through and you're also reading it through a
very Mormon lens, and it's like, yeah, I don't understand this,
Well what does the church tell me? It means right? Right?
And I don't think it's that much different for the
(06:35):
prophets and apostles of the Church. I actually think that
a lot of them are very biblically illiterate. And I
am going to kind of go through this. I think
people might think, wow, that's a really harsh statement, but
I want you to think, like, die, what would you
say is your foundation? Like if I'm throwing that stone
(07:00):
out there, what would you say is like your foundation
of biblical literacy as a pastor? What is that based
off of.
Speaker 2 (07:11):
Four years of Bible College, two years of a master's degree,
and thirty years of exclusively studying the Bible with the
help of the original language and concordances commentaries for parts
of it that I'm not an expert in. I rely
on the experts in that area to help me understand.
Speaker 1 (07:32):
Yeah, so there is this a lot of Biblical knowledge
and like original text, so we would talk like Greek Hebrew.
I'm not trying to be an expert in this, but
I'm just saying, like there is ay.
Speaker 2 (07:49):
There's an intentionality to understand it.
Speaker 1 (07:52):
Yeah, like you guys want to make sure it is
translated correctly, and we want.
Speaker 2 (07:58):
To understand this ancient Eastern book written by ancient Eastern people.
Two ancient Eastern people, we understand what they mean. When
we're not ancient or Eastern, we're modern and Western. So
that means there are things that I'm just not going
to get unless I do some study culturally and historically
to help me understand.
Speaker 1 (08:20):
Okay, So we heard about Dye's credentials where Die and
I'm sure other pastors like her. I don't think Die
is the one end all be all of you know,
biblical scholarship. I did a search to try to find
out who in the Mormon Church, Nose, Greek, Nose, Hebrew
(08:45):
has studied ancient texts. Okay, die, are you ready for
my exhaustive list here?
Speaker 2 (08:52):
I think so. But to be fair, I haven't. I
don't know the original languages. So are you saying that
have to be trained in original language or that that
they are reading other someone else's work.
Speaker 1 (09:07):
I would say that the pursuit is to try to understand, okay, context,
to understand what original words mean.
Speaker 2 (09:17):
Yeah?
Speaker 1 (09:17):
Yeah. Do I think you have to speak it fluently? No?
But I think that there's a there's a desire to,
and there's merit to the idea of really understanding what
the Bible says, or understanding one of these books that
(09:38):
you believe is the Word of God. Okay, died, this
is what I this is what I unearthed. Are you ready?
Speaker 2 (09:45):
I'm buckling up right now?
Speaker 1 (09:47):
All right? Joseph Smith's study of Hebrew in Kirtland. So
this is a BYU Religious Studies Center article and it
says the most formal, well documented, an influential exercise was
Joseph Smith's study in Kirtland, Ohio between the fall, so
(10:09):
let's just say September. I don't know, between the fall
of eighteen thirty five and the spring of eighteen thirty six.
Speaker 2 (10:22):
I'm biting my tongue. Okay, where'd this picture come from?
That's the most ridiculous picture for people can't see the
picture is that Joseph Smith sitting in a rocking chair
with a book that weighs I don't know, nineteen pounds
in gilded gold pages. That is the assumption that he's
(10:45):
just casually reading Hebrew in.
Speaker 1 (10:47):
This picture, casually he's got He's got it.
Speaker 2 (10:51):
There, Di strodigy, you picked it up really fast.
Speaker 1 (10:54):
Yeah, there you go. Yeah, it only took him. Let's
just say it was September to March. It only took
him eight months. And that is the most formal and
well documented is of Joseph Smith studying Hebrew for like
eight months. Okay, right, that is his biblical scholarship there,
(11:17):
all right. I don't know how I feel about that one.
So I want to talk about the current leadership today
and this I actually trashed a preview a podcast I
was going to do in the future about the current
apostles of the church and first presidency, because I think
(11:37):
it's really important to talk about what type of people
they are and what type of educational background they have. Okay,
so I have it for those of you who are watching,
This might be a really good episode to watch, just
maybe for this main graphic, so it shows first the
profit of the church. Russell M. Nelson was a heart
(11:58):
surgeon and he was the president of the Utah State
Medical Association. That's impressive, very impressive. Dalan A. Jokes, Justice
of the Utah Supreme Court and president of BYU the
Church School, right ye. And Russell Ballard businessman and owner
(12:19):
of Ballard Motor Company. I actually think he's deceased since
I have put this together, so I'm sorry for that one.
I don't know if that's correct. Jeffrey R. Holland was
president of BYU, Henry b Iring was president of Ricks College.
Deeter f Uchdorp was senior vice president of Flight Operations.
I think that was for Luftanza, but I didn't write
(12:41):
that on here. You can fact check me on that one.
David A. Bednar, president of BYU Idaho. Quentin Cook corporate attorney,
they like the lawyers. De Todd Christofferson was also a
lawyer for Bank of America, a corporate attorney for Bank
of America. Neil L. Anderson business executive. Donald A. Rasband
(13:05):
was a business executive for Huntsman. Gary E. Stevens was
a business executive. Daniel G. Runlan was a cardiologist, professor,
professor and medical director. Garrett W. Gong was in politics
and a professor, and Uleasy Sores was like an LDS
(13:25):
church employee and senior auditor. Okay, can I just throw
it out there? These dudes are rock stars like at
their profession. These guys are people that don't want it
on any board. Not going to disrespect them in that way.
If they were like, hey, Kai, your tiny businesses that
(13:47):
do nothing in revenue, we will be on your board
of directors. I would take any of them because I
think they're probably great administratively. But if you really look
at it, like, these are people who are supposed to
be leading the Lord's Church. These are people who are
(14:08):
supposed to be translating the Bible correctly. Don't you think
like one of them should be a biblical scholar?
Speaker 2 (14:18):
Right? It's interesting because I don't know how the governmental
structure works really the word apostle makes me think that
that there should be some biblical basis or seminary training
or something. But they do come off like they are
a board of directors.
Speaker 1 (14:37):
Yeah, it's very and and I think like if people
look at the Mormon Church from an administrative perspective, it
is run super well, Like it is administratively done really well. Die.
This is hurting my soul to give so many good
compliments to the Mormon Church, but it is. It's just,
(14:58):
you know, there's a great organizational structure. But I think
about it theologically, like what is there theologically that is
bringing people back to a standard, right, Like in the
Christian Church, the standard is the Bible. And any pastor
(15:19):
that goes up and preaches the Bible and preaches it
without teaching something false, anyone in that congregation can go
up to them and say, hey, like, I actually think
that you are off the rails here. I mean, is
that is that something that you are open to die?
Speaker 2 (15:38):
Oh sure, yes, yeah. If I teach something incorrectly, I'd
be mortified, but I would want to know, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1 (15:47):
And what would your reception of that be? Like, what
would your reception of, Hey, that wasn't biblically accurate, like.
Speaker 2 (15:54):
What to be totally honest. If I had studied it really,
really strongly, I might react with, you know what, let
me take a look at that this week and see
what I think about it. Thank you for bringing that up.
If I didn't study it well enough and I feel
like someone just caught me on something that I am
not well versed in, I'd probably be so humiliated and
(16:18):
just start apologizing and then say let me go, let
me go reread that this week and then figure out
how I'm going to publicly apologize next week.
Speaker 1 (16:29):
Yeah. So there's this idea in the church that if
it's said by the prophet or by the apostles, then
that is what's correct. Right. It's not what is said,
it is who says it. Okay, So you have this
idea of all of these people, and I'm not dogging
(16:50):
their credentials. I think their credentials are great and they're
very impressive, but none of them are biblical scholars. They
all may be no Mormon doctrine really well, and they
might know how that might work into how they view
the Bible and how they view the Book Mormon and
(17:10):
all of those things. But none of them are like
biblically strong, as in they are reading, they're like trying
to fully understand this Eastern book and all.
Speaker 2 (17:25):
At least not that we can see. It is possible
one of them or more of them have this private
side hobby of deep Biblical study and it's just not
a credentials. We just want to be fair and say,
maybe they love reading the Bible and we just don't know.
But it does not appear that they have been formally trained.
(17:48):
I think that's what you're looking for. There's no formal
training here, I am.
Speaker 1 (17:54):
I'm not saying that at all. I am saying that
they will willfully go against the Bible and be willfully
ignorant of it and hide behind a King James version
that is almost not understandable.
Speaker 2 (18:16):
Yes, I understand what your experience backs up what you're saying.
I'm trying to say from my seat, if I'm just
looking at this list and the credentials after them, that
doesn't tell me that these people don't have a love
for the Bible. They just don't have formal training as
part of their credentials. But now you're saying, but now
(18:39):
back it up with the experience of probably all Mormons.
And that's where you can that's the glaring weakness.
Speaker 1 (18:47):
Yeah, and that's where I say, if you really did
have a deep biblical understanding, your theology would be completely different.
And so we're going to get into a little bit
of theology and we're going to talk about that. And Die.
If me as just this guy talking about theology, if
(19:08):
I am way off, hey you can, you can rebuke
me here. But I do think it's really important because
when I came out of when I came out of Mormonism,
I would hear like these stories, like I would hear
Die preach up on the stage and I'd be like, yeah,
like I kind of know the story, Like I know,
you know, you could talk about the global flood. I'm like, yeah,
(19:29):
I know these general basic concepts, But how does that
find its way into theology, Like how does that find
its way into Mormon doctrine? And as I read through
the Bible, there were so many times where as a believer,
or even as a non believer, I would be listening
(19:52):
and I would hear something and I would say that
goes directly against Mormon doctrine. What we're going to cover
is not an exhaustive list at all. This is very personal,
very anecdotal, but just these moments where I'm reading through
the Bible in a translation that I can actually understand.
(20:16):
Just put that out there. I was reading through the
CSB when I really unearthed a lot of this stuff.
Christian Standard Bible given to me by Die's husband. I
was reading through it. This is the first thing that
made me think what and I want to I want
(20:37):
to paint the picture. In Mormonism, marriage is a foundation
of theological belief ceilings for time and all eternity to
people is how you are exalted, how you become like God.
You need your spouse. It's it's not optional. It's not
(21:02):
an optional thing. It is you need to be married.
You see these people get off their mission in a
fever pitch, get married, like within a year because it's
so not knowing anyone, they just find the person, get engaged,
get married. Right. It's a very core thing in the church.
(21:24):
And so as I'm reading through the Bible, kind of
I want to say for the first time, but without
that Mormon lens, without that Mormon filter, like we understand
filters in our society, right, people get catfished because there's
a filter over a picture or whatever. Without that Mormon filter,
(21:46):
I was able to read about marriage, and I was
able to read like, is it necessary? Here? We have
in one Corinthian seven we have this guy Paul, right,
the apostle Paul, and he's talking about marriage. He's talking
about it in a lot of different ways. If you
(22:08):
want to get more context, read this whole chapter and
you can tell me if you think contextually I'm taking
Paul's words incorrectly. But he says now to the unmarried,
like for me as a Mormon thinking about being unmarried, uh,
you know, kind of frightening, right, can't be exalted without
(22:30):
being married? Says now to the unmarried and the widows,
I say it is good for them to stay unmarried,
as I do, but if they cannot control themselves, they
should marry, or it is better for them to marry
(22:50):
than to burn with passion. Okay, I think I think
we can all kind of understand this. Right. He's saying
it's okay to be not married.
Speaker 2 (23:02):
Okay, what does the Mormon Church do with the fact
that Paul wasn't married.
Speaker 1 (23:08):
You're reading it in King James. I don't know if
you pick that up. I'm just being honest. I'm not
trying to be snarky. I just I don't think I
ever picked that up. That like, oh, and like a
lot of the apostles weren't married. Like of the twelve
that Jesus called twelve, the twelve disciples or apostles, a
lot of them weren't married. Right. I think if you
(23:29):
had a deep biblical understanding temple marriage, maybe wouldn't be
you know what it is? Right, he says, Now about virgins,
I have no command for So this is a little
further down, and I didn't want to read the whole chapter,
but please read it and get context and tell me
if I'm wrong. But now about virgins, I have no
(23:51):
command from the Lord, but I give judgment as one who,
by the Lord's mercy, is trustworthy. So a trusted sore.
I'm gonna give you some advice. Because of the present crisis.
I think it is good for man to remain as
he is. So if you're married, if you're pledged to
a woman, do not seek to be released. If you
(24:15):
are free from such a commitment, do not look for
a wife. Do not look for a wife. Okay, but
if you do not marry, you have not sinned. And
if a virgin marries, she has not sinned. But those
who marry will face many troubles in this life. And
I want to spare you this. Okay, marriage is tough. Okay,
(24:39):
well we've all heard that one before. I would like
for you to be free from concern. An unmarried man
is concerned about the lord's affairs, how he can please
the Lord. But a married man is concerned about the
affairs of this world and how he can please his wife.
(25:01):
And he talks about these affairs being divided. I think
this is really important. Guy, Like, here we are, we're
talking about, like, if you have to be married to
be in the celestial kingdom with God and to be
exalted and to be creating worlds after this.
Speaker 2 (25:20):
Life, why would you give an option?
Speaker 1 (25:22):
Yeah, And Paul's like, dude, it doesn't matter. And actually,
not only does it.
Speaker 3 (25:30):
Not matter, but if you are not married with no kids,
you are free from like the concerns of marriage.
Speaker 2 (25:43):
Have a divided interest. You can focus solely on God
without having to divide your interest with a spouse.
Speaker 1 (25:49):
With a spouse and kids in a household and this
and that, like you can fully dedicate yourself to God.
And I'm reading this and I'm thinking to myself, this
goes totally in the face of celestial marriage stealing and
this very fundamental Mormon doctrine. Yeah, if you let's just die,
(26:16):
I'm gonna go with your benefit of the doubt that
Dieter Ukdorf is sitting around and reading the Bible by
himself in a way that he can understand, and he
reads these verses and he finds a way to have
that mesh with Mormon doctrine. I don't think you can.
(26:41):
I don't either, and I don't think that's what he's doing.
I think he's saying it's good for people to marry.
That's what we're getting out of these verses. That's what
we're getting out of this chapter. It's good to be married,
and it's good to be a good spouse and to
(27:02):
meet your spouse's needs, which is what this chapter is saying.
Speaker 2 (27:05):
In fact, the section that starts it off is if
you're married, you shouldn't abstain from from sex, because then
you create temptation for you or for your partner, or
for both of you. And it in the background reason
for that is the culture had a belief system or
a religious belief system in it called gnosticism. Gnosticism believed
(27:28):
that physical bodies were that's not spiritual, like you, the
physical body and physical matter are are evil and the
spirit is what's good, so they have they must be separated.
So anything that involved the physical body was thought of
as dirty or evil or bad, including Jesus could not
(27:49):
have been in a physical body because God would never
inhabit something evil. Matter is evil, So that that is
just a reference back to what happens in your physical
bodies is not all bad. So sex inside of marriage
is where it's designed to be. So it's just an
interesting little cultural piece that gets put behind it.
Speaker 1 (28:10):
Yeah, I'm sure. I'm sure Cooda told me that. Just kidding. Sorry,
I shouldn't be so stark.
Speaker 2 (28:16):
It's a simple history search too, that's not a hard
thing to look up what gnosticism was and when it
was and it was that's the backdrop these letters are
written against.
Speaker 1 (28:26):
Yeah, hey and Deeter, you're welcome to come on the
podcast and clarify if you know all these like, honestly,
you are welcome. I actually I really like you. I
think you seem like a really nice guy, Okay, this
next thing, die, I should be less snarky, I should
be more professional. But I do think that there is
this idea that, like there's such a surface level biblical
(28:49):
understanding for these leaders who are trying to translate the
Bible correctly. And I think that if you are going
to take that title, like you should really be in
the text and you should really know the history. Yeah,
the next one and Diet, this actually has a very
personal contentation, like a very personal meaning to me. Before
(29:12):
I was a believer, I remember hearing this verse Hebrews
five to four, and if you had served a mission
like I had less than one. In the Restoration, they
have this verse of Hebrews five to four, and it
is no man ticket this honor unto himself except he
(29:32):
that is called as Is as was Aaron. Right, So
that's what it says in there, and what the Mormon
Church will say to give context is you can only
preach the Gospel if you have been ordained by somebody
who holds that authority, that Melchzedic priestood authority. And this
(29:55):
was their justification for it is that you have to
be called of God as Aaron was called of God.
Right by a physical ordination. Now, what's interesting about this
is if you look up Aaron's physical ordination, it's it's
actually very fuzzy there. There isn't like a I looked
(30:16):
it up in Joshua, and there isn't like we laid
our hands on Erin and gave him the priesthood.
Speaker 2 (30:21):
It doesn't it Moses saying I can't do this by myself,
and God saying, okay, fine, I'll give you Aaron to
help you.
Speaker 1 (30:29):
Period. That's his call. So so my point in saying
this is if you look up sometimes what you have
to do to give things context is we're in Hebrews four.
We actually don't know who the author of Hebrews is.
But in Hebrews four, at the end of the chapter
it starts to kind of give us context to who
(30:53):
the high priest is. And it's a little tough because
they don't they don't say, and then it goes to
chapter five, so you kind of lose it with that break.
It's kind of a bad break to say, like between
four and five, you got to kind of go to
verses before to get context to what five four is saying.
(31:14):
Hebrews five four saying, but he says, therefore, since we
have a great high priest, well, who is he talking about?
Who is the great high priest who ascended into heaven, Jesus,
the Son of God. Let us hold firmly to the
faith we possess, for we do not have a high
priest who is unable to empathize with our weakness, but
(31:38):
we have one who has been tempted in every way
just as we are, yet did not sin. Still talking
about Jesus, let us approach God's throne of grace with confidence,
so that we may receive mercy and find grace to
help us in our time of need. Okay, then the
(31:59):
chapter ends Die and we pick up in Hebrews five,
verse one. It says every high priest is selected from
among the people and is appointed to represent the people
in all the matters related to God. So he's still
talking about this like mosaic law levite thing. Right, he's
(32:23):
still talking about he talked about Jesus.
Speaker 2 (32:25):
Well, he's comparing them he or she, he or she.
By the way, the author of Hebrews could be female.
Speaker 1 (32:34):
Preach it die, Yeah, it could be a female. Hey,
there we go to represent the people in this matter
relating to God to offer gifts and sacrifices for sins.
Still talking about the old law, levitical law, he is
able to deal gently with those who are ignorant and
who have gone astray, since he himself is subject to weakness.
(32:58):
They're drawing a difference between the two. Jesus didn't have weakness.
They're saying that in the end of chapter four, this
is why he has to offer sacrifices for his own
sins as well as the sins of other people. And
no one takes this honor on himself, but he that
(33:19):
receives it when he's called of God, just as Aaron was.
The same way. Christ did not take upon himself the
glory of becoming a high priest. And it goes on here.
But I think we're kind of getting this idea that like,
we're not still trying to call people in this old
(33:40):
levitical way. He's saying there's a different way now, and
that is Jesus. Jesus is the high priest. So in
the Mormon Church we have high priests.
Speaker 2 (33:52):
Oh who's the high priest?
Speaker 1 (33:55):
So your ward, so the structure of your word, you
might have like ten high priests sat or twenty whoah.
So after you receive, after you have certain callings, or
you become a certain age, you become a high priest.
In you in the church, you're a high priest in.
Speaker 2 (34:17):
The order of Melchizedek. Is that the idea the.
Speaker 1 (34:20):
Order of Melkezidic? Yeah, which is I mean, from a
Christian perspective, pretty problematic because Jesus is our high priest.
But I remember, I just want to give why this
was so important to me is because I remember reading it,
(34:41):
and I remember reading it like almost for the first time,
really trying to investigate what it's saying, Like what is
what is this verse actually saying, and what is the
Mormon filter telling me it's saying? Right, the Mormon filter
is telling me, we have authority. We may give it
(35:06):
to you, you don't have it on your own. And
what Biblical Christianity is saying, Jesus is the high priest.
Speaker 2 (35:17):
What Biblical Christianity is saying is that system was temporary.
It was it was for a temporary way for humans
to interact with God. They had to do it through
an earthly priest. But what Melchizedeics showed us was as
a priest and a king outside of the levitical line,
(35:41):
that one who would come would be in that order,
would be like that would not be from the levitical line,
which Jesus was not, and would be a priest and
a king. And that is meant, of course to be
much bigger than the earthly office. So the whole overarching
thing of theme of Hebrews is Jesus offers a clear
(36:01):
version of everything that Jewish people knew that was less
clear and temporary. So Jesus is the high priest. The
form we had before was not could not save us,
it was I mean, that's why the priest had to
(36:22):
go in regularly and offer sacrifices. Jesus's sacrifice is the
last one needed because it's.
Speaker 1 (36:29):
Enough, okay and die. Is this pretty basic to Christianity?
Speaker 2 (36:36):
Yes?
Speaker 1 (36:36):
Yeah, And actually so.
Speaker 2 (36:39):
This this book because I've been studying Hebrews just so
happens the past couple of weeks. I taught it on
it to our interns here Adventure, but I've been studying
it for another group that I lead to. So I'm
not an expert, but I've spent a lot of time here.
The literary tool used to compose this book is what's
called an enclusive. It's like parentheses, and it's like everything
(37:04):
inside the parentheses is the argument for everything outside of
the parentheses. And it's almost the entire book is inside
the parentheses. It's like all those therefores, you have a
therefore right there at the beginning. All every time you
see therefore, they're all built on top of each other.
So you know, we have we had Moses, but because
(37:28):
we had Moses, we therefore have one that is better
who Therefore it's they all build a case on top
of each other, which is actually really interesting to study.
And then when you get to the very end, it's therefore,
because all this stuff that has been built as proof,
and Jesus is the ultimate high priest, we can endure.
(37:49):
That's the end. Like we can have faith, we can
endure suffering, we can get through this. So all of
the entire book Jesus modeled for us. He suffer, he endured,
he was, he remained faithful. Therefore so can we. He's
our high priest.
Speaker 1 (38:06):
Okay, perfect, So I think that this is and I'll
tell you die. This was. This was a real big
spark for me in my conversion to Christianity. Was like, oh,
I know this verse by heart, like I know, I
(38:28):
know it, like I know it through memory, but I
didn't know anything of the context. And when I started
to understand the context, I said, man, I probably didn't
understand this at all. Yeah, and that's where I find it.
I'm just gonna be honest and direct, because why stop
(38:50):
now I've been very honest and directly.
Speaker 2 (38:52):
I'm just kinda say as you usually aren't.
Speaker 1 (38:55):
I I think it's pretty nefairiou is, and like pretty
dishonest to put Hebrews five to four in a manual
as a way to claim authority. I actually believe it
points to your own ignorance. If I'm just being like,
you don't know, this is just something that sounds good
(39:19):
and that you can pull this first from.
Speaker 2 (39:22):
Well, and it's used manipulatively too. It's used to guide
people's actions in a way that they may not have
chosen for themselves. So that's manipulation.
Speaker 1 (39:33):
Yeah, yeah, I just I don't think it's I don't
think it's put in there in good faith. I guess
that's maybe MY big thing is it's like, if you
want to push your own doctrine, go for it, but
don't use don't use something out of context that's very
like you just have to read the verses and know that,
like this is not contextually correct, right.
Speaker 2 (39:55):
And just to make a point about your graphic, if
anyone's looking at it, where it says Hebrews five, and
then I underneath it has a five, that should be
a one, so it's chapter five, but you're starting with
verse one. I had to get out my Bible and
be like, wait, I'm.
Speaker 1 (40:10):
Sorry, Yeah, you're talking about my graphic where it says
Hebrews five. Yeah, sorry, that's chapter five, verse one. Yeah.
So just for those of you who are kind of
watching this online, I think this is a halfway decent
one to watch online. Okay, the next one and this
is you'll hear die. I have to. I have to
(40:32):
give you some credit on this one. So, while I
was still not a believer, my wife was full on
hardcore Christian and in the church, and she would go
through the Bible every single night through di'es program of
Bible in a.
Speaker 2 (40:50):
Year, oh, where I make comments every single day to
explain things.
Speaker 1 (40:56):
Yes, And what's funny is I'm not a believer, and
I'm also pretty annoyed with Christianity. But here I am
sitting there listening to the Bible every single night. There
were so many times in there where I would hear
something in language that I understood and just be like,
(41:17):
that is so not Mormon doctrine. Like there are so
many times where you would you would hear this and
you'd be like, that goes directly contrary to Mormon teachings, just.
Speaker 2 (41:32):
The straight reading, straight reading.
Speaker 1 (41:35):
You'd be like, you can't misinterpret this, like it's it's
going directly against it. And I would I would tell
my wife to push pause, and I would say, like,
I mean, obviously I'm not I'm not on board with
all this stuff you're studying. But it is interesting how
just different it is, like that wouldn't have stood up
(42:00):
and like that just doesn't stand up to Mormon doctor,
like it kind of strikes down Mormon doctrine. Is maybe
the wording I'm trying to say. And I had one
of those moments recently when I was at a church. Here,
we're church shopping right now, and I don't know when
this church shopping will end, but we are church shopping.
(42:22):
Every Sunday we go to a new church. And these
churches are very nice and lovely, I'm not going to
say anything negative about the churches around here. The pastor
was up there and he was preaching, and something stuck
out stood out to me that was interesting. And this
was a couple of weeks ago, so it's still fresh
(42:44):
in my mind. He quoted first Timothy one, and so
this is Paul again. He's sending a letter to his
buddy Timothy. Somebody kind of brought up a little bit,
and he's saying this thing to him. And I don't
think that this is a letter addressed to early leadership
(43:06):
of the Mormon Church, but I do think it's just
kind of funny. He says, as I urged you when
you were in Macedonia, so when you're in this other place,
stay here in ephesis, so he's telling him to stay here.
He's kind of given him his little mission call, so
that you may command certain people not to teach false
(43:26):
doctrine any longer. I'm like, oh, false doctrine. So that
kind of peaked my interest a little bit. Or to
devote themselves to myths and endless genealogies, and I'm like,
my ex Mormon buzzers are like going endless genealogies. Huh,
(43:49):
that's kind of interesting from a Mormon perspective, right, such
things promote controversial speculations rather than advance seeing God's work,
which is by faith. Sorry, sometimes I get so excited
that I interject way too much. Let me just read
(44:10):
it straight. So this is Paul talking to Timothy, as
I urged you when you went into Macedonia, stay here
in ephesis so that you may command certain people not
to teach false doctrines any longer, or to devote themselves
to misths and endless genealogies. Such things promote controversial speculations
(44:34):
rather than advancing God's work, which is by faith. Okay,
As an ex Mormon, I read this and it's like
Timothy's whole goal is to make sure that the right
things are being taught in the church.
Speaker 2 (44:54):
Right, Well, Paul, Paul is talking to Timothy.
Speaker 1 (44:59):
Yes, sorry did I mix that up? And I thought
this idea of myths, like, there are a lot of
weird myths in the Mormon Church. There's a lot of
weird theology, I would say, false doctrine people. The whole
idea behind the temple is dedicating yourself to literally endless genealogies. Right,
(45:29):
So this whole thing. And what I think what bothers
a lot of ex Mormons is they look at it
and they're like all that weird stuff from being Mormon
and like all this templework stuff and all this other
weird stuff that like, we can see the origins of it.
(45:50):
Even the most atheist X Mormon will say, we see
the origins of it. And it's not like biblical. It's
actually pretty like folk magic y yeah, myth mythological and mystical.
Speaker 2 (46:07):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (46:09):
And so I just you see these little like winks
from God where you're like, well, if you ever see
this patterned.
Speaker 2 (46:17):
Well, and this was happening at this time period too.
So it's not a new thing for humans to slide
into their own traditions. Because the bigger word for myths
would be even traditions or rituals or the things that
are outside of God's word are not God's word. And
so therefore for us to elevate them to the same
(46:39):
status as God's word is putting them in their improper place.
So those myths and traditions they belong lesser than God's
word and they should never contradict God's word.
Speaker 1 (46:51):
Yeah, And to hammer this home, like I think what
a lot of ex Mormons struggle with is like, like
all of these pretty like extra for a biblical ideas, right,
They're like polygamy is coheresive and wrong, and the way
that Joseph Smith practiced it is wrong. The way that
(47:14):
like power and excommunicating people and silencing people like that
is wrong. I put some funny things on here to
kind of lighten the mood. I'm not, but I do
think these are kind of funny, and I think that
they speak to like kind of this. Just like Joseph
(47:35):
Smith and Brigham Young were normal people, I see these
not normal. They were people. I should say.
Speaker 2 (47:43):
They were people, common people.
Speaker 1 (47:45):
Common people who maybe had some weird ideas. And these
are some really funny weird ideas. So this is from
the prophet Joseph Smith. He said, the inhabitants of the moon,
the inhabitants people living there. Inhabitants of the moon are
more of a uniform size than the inhabitants of the Earth,
(48:07):
being about six feet in height. They dress very much
like Quaker style and are quite general in the style
or the fashion of dress. They live to be very old,
coming generally near a thousand years.
Speaker 2 (48:25):
Is this well known. Is this some obscure quote somewhere.
Speaker 1 (48:30):
It's pretty obscure, but it's a tributed to Joseph Smith
that he said it. And it's like.
Speaker 2 (48:38):
That's doodle whack a doodle.
Speaker 1 (48:42):
But but is that something that would like promote controversy
and speculation rather than advancing God's work? Like if you
read that and you're like this, dude's Dude's like God
some ideas? Okay. The next one is by the second
Prophet of the Church. This is by Brigham Young. He says,
(49:02):
who can tell us of the inhabitants of this little
planet that shines off in the evening called the moon? Oh,
he's really chiming it up here. So it is regarded
to the inhabitants of the sun. Oh, do you think
it is inhabited? Rather think it is. Do you think
(49:27):
there is any life there? No question of it. It
is not made in vain.
Speaker 2 (49:36):
Is right up there with flat earth arguments?
Speaker 1 (49:39):
Yeah, get the tinfoil hat today. But those these things
and these ideas, these are man you know, kind of
you know, tinfoil hat ideas. They promote controversial speculation, right,
rather than advancing god work. Yeah, And I think and
(50:02):
there's so many other things in the Mormon Church and
in Mormon doctrine where you're like, this just actually makes
it a lot harder for people to believe.
Speaker 2 (50:13):
And Okay, thank you for saying that, because can I
interrupt for one second?
Speaker 1 (50:17):
Go ahead.
Speaker 2 (50:17):
The genealogy comment here can be confusing if you stop
for a second and go, wait a minute, I'm not
supposed to go on ancestry dot com. Is that what
it's telling me? Or why does the Bible have so
many genealogies inside of it? And so this is where
we have to understand what is the author actually trying
(50:39):
to say to their original audience, because we're trying to
put it into our modern day, and first we have
to start with what did it mean and what it means.
The context for this is the religious teachers of the law.
I don't want to say obsessed, because maybe that's not
fair and not accurate, but we're cared a lot about
(51:00):
tracing their lineage back to a noteworthy biblical character, maybe
to Abraham or to Moses, and that made them better
than and the world at this time is all about
including more than just the Jewish people in salvation, and
so that doesn't help. It doesn't help if you're trying
(51:21):
to prove that you're better than so stop working so
hard to prove your pedigree is better when everybody's included,
if they believe and receive the work that Jesus did
on the Cross.
Speaker 1 (51:35):
Yeah, and I think it's good to give this context.
But I look at how much time is spent towards
temple work in the Mormon Church and this endless genealogies.
Like I said, I don't think that this is directly like,
I don't think that Paul is writing this to Timothy
(51:57):
so that it can strike down the Mormon Church right
hundreds of years later. I'm not trying to say that,
but it's pretty close. He's like pointing out these very
specific things. Yeah, that are really interesting from an ex
Mormon perspective.
Speaker 2 (52:17):
And it does strike down I mean, if if the
if I understood right, Mormons are trying to research their
genealogy so that they can perform an act or work
on behalf of somebody who's already died. Correct yep, Okay,
so yes, that's not that's not what the genealogies are for.
(52:37):
That's that is that is that verse just tells you
what genealogies are not for They're not for exclusivity. They're
not They're not for any of our traditions or anything
we've added to the Bible.
Speaker 1 (52:51):
Yeah, and if you are assigning too much weight to them,
what it means. Yeah, you're seeing the point, right. And
so I listen to this and I am just like laughing.
I'm return to my wife and I'm just like, this
is like Mormonism right here, and it's so interesting, Like
(53:17):
if you read the Bible in context and you were
a Biblical scholar and you were biblically literate. No, I'm
not even talking. I'm just taking a surface level here,
not knowing the Greek and Hebrew to be like, this
whole temple work thing is not biblical. Nope, and we
need to find a way to like scrap that so
(53:39):
that we can be in line with strong biblical teaching. Yeah,
all right. I I personally think that that there is
a lot of ignorance from the leadership, and I think
the reason why is be because they don't want if
(54:02):
they change the theology, they worry about losing all the members.
I think that is a really terrible reason to make
bad decisions and to continue to make bad decisions because
(54:22):
with the amount of information that people have, Yep, they
are going to look at you and they are going
to say, I'm informed, I've actually read the Bible in
a version that I can understand, and you are the
only one who is inconsistent with this. Yeah, Like you're
(54:46):
the only one who's on the outside. And so as
I look at this, and I look at it from
an ex Mormon perspective, I would just hope that people
would just get a copy of Christian Standard Bible and
that's what I read NIV any of these versions, really
(55:08):
read through it and be like, man, is this the
same gospel that I thought I understood in the Mormon Church?
Like is this the same teaching? And can everything kind
of be refuted like doctrinally that I believed because they
aren't the same. And this has taken me a really
(55:28):
long time to get to this point. Die When we
first started podcasting, I don't know, I mean, my theology
was not really that good. And now I look at
it and I'm like, gosh, there are just so many
differences that it is a different gospel. Yeah, Like it
(55:50):
might have the same characters, but it's a different gospel. Yeah,
and it's different teaching, and so die do I ask
you the question again. Maybe I shouldn't put you on
the record, but I do think it's an important question
(56:12):
to ask. Are Mormon leaders biblically ignorant?
Speaker 2 (56:18):
I'd have to say yes, with the caveat that doesn't
mean dumb. They're clearly intelligent humans. The list of credentials
you showed me shows that there's a lot of intelligence,
but biblically intelligent it does not appear. So.
Speaker 1 (56:41):
Yeah, and I would say they're intelligent with Mormon doctrine,
Mormon policies, procedure, that's.
Speaker 2 (56:49):
The legal side. I would expect that from them. They
all have that, most of them have a legal side
to them.
Speaker 1 (56:55):
Yeah, so I and administratively great, but that doesn't mean
that they really understand what Jesus did, what the Gospel is,
and all those things is. This would be my encouragement
to people out there. If you are like I don't know, Kai,
just read read the New Testament cover to cover, YEP,
(57:16):
come back and say Kai, doctrinally you're wrong here here, okay,
I will take that. I'll even take that at my
email Kai, Sorry Jesus for Mormons at Gmail. Dot com.
You can send me an email saying I believe that
you are incorrect, Kai, and I will. I'll look into
(57:38):
that and really research it. And I think that's really
what happens in the in the Christian world is people
they want to be correct, they want to be right
with God. They don't want to be right in their
own mind and in their group of fifteen buddies. Yeah,
that's a kind of a job there at the first
(58:00):
Presidency and Korma, the twelve Apostles. They don't want to
be just right with those people. They sincerely want to
be right with God. And that standard, that textual standard,
is the Bible. So on that one.
Speaker 2 (58:17):
Good work.
Speaker 1 (58:18):
I don't know a little nuclear today, but I do, Die,
I really appreciate you being on People love you. Somebody
wrote in the comments. They wrote, yeah, if that gal
could keep talking and you could talk less, that would
be great.
Speaker 2 (58:33):
Oh no, no, oh wow, that's pretty funny.
Speaker 1 (58:39):
I just laugh. I agree with them. I agree with him, Die,
I really appreciate you helping me on this and going
through my story with me. And uh yeah, until next time.
And we love you guys.
Speaker 2 (58:53):
Yep.
Welcome to another episode of Jesus for Mormons. Die, I
have a question for you. Okay, are Mormon leaders I'm
talking about the prophet and apostles, are they biblically ignorant?
Speaker 2 (00:21):
I don't know how to answer that question, but I'm
excited to explore the topic and maybe our readers can
also listeners can come to a conclusion with us. Wow journey.
Speaker 1 (00:34):
Okay, well, let's go ahead and have this conversation. I
am going to make the case today that I do
believe that Mormon leadership is biblically ignorant.
Speaker 2 (00:45):
Hot take.
Speaker 1 (00:47):
I didn't cross my words. But let's let's hear what
the first prophet of quote unquote prophet of the Church
of Jesus Christ of Latter day Saints. It wasn't called
that back then, Joseph Smith said in the eighth Article
of Faith. So the idea behind the articles of faith
(01:07):
is that Joseph Smith was asked what his beliefs were,
and he gave these thirteen articles of faith. The eighth
one is, we believe the Bible to be the Word
of God as far as it is translated correctly. We
also believe the Book of Mormon to be the word
(01:28):
of God, all right, So we believe the Bible to
be the Word of God as far as it is
translated correctly.
Speaker 2 (01:36):
I have heard that over the years, and I have
so many questions.
Speaker 1 (01:41):
I'm curious, what questions do you have as a pastor
for thirty some odd years or however long you've done it.
What questions do you have?
Speaker 2 (01:49):
Well, I mean I could pop off a few. What
standard of measurement are you using to determine whether or
not it's translated accurately? Who's determining that, and what are
their dentials? What source material are they looking at, and
who's deciding whether or not the Book of Mormon has
been translated or recorded correctly, Because as far as I understand,
(02:11):
there are were a decent amount of errors in that
book when it was first written down transcribed, even though
it was written correct me if I'm wrong, written down
because the Bible had errors, and so we needed a
book without errors, and the one that was supposed to
have no errors had way more.
Speaker 1 (02:29):
Well, I would say, uh, I would say, There's only
one statement that I would say is maybe a little
off from a Mormon perspective. It's that the Bible was
written because there were errors or the Book of Mormon
was written because they were errors. From a Mormon perspective,
it would be the Book of Mormon is another testament
(02:50):
of Jesus Christ, so it's a companion scripture to the Bible,
as a Mormon.
Speaker 2 (02:57):
Would view it accurate to say that, but that that
companion book is more accurate than what it's a companion to.
Speaker 1 (03:07):
Oh So, in the introduction to the Book of Mormon,
it says that the Book of Mormon is the most
correct out of any book on earth. Okay, so there's
the Bible is also a book, so they're saying it
is more more correct than the Bible.
Speaker 2 (03:28):
Okay, you see your wording got really fairly good job.
Good job holding back your own thoughts and just stating
it factually.
Speaker 1 (03:37):
Okay. Yeah, I could have a tendency to go a
little nuclear, but I think it's really important to talk
about this eighth Article of Faith because it says that
we believe the Bible to be the Word of God
as far as is translated correctly, and I really want
to stick to that. And Mormons, members of the Church
(03:58):
of Jesus Christ of Latter Day saying read from the
King James version of the Bible almost exclusively, and I
think it's important to say, is that the best translation
of the Bible? Die is shaking her head. No. I
(04:20):
went through and did kind of research outside of Die,
and I've heard it said this is my opinion, Die,
and I would love to hear yours, because I'm sure
it's much better than mine. I've heard that it is
a decent translation, that like word for word, it's actually
not that bad. But because it was written in sixteen eleven,
(04:45):
the language is so hard, like your Companion to the
King James version of the Bible better be a Webster's
Dictionary or the equivalent of from sixteen eleven, so you
can actually understand what it's saying.
Speaker 2 (05:04):
Yes, yeah, I mean I think that's the best summary.
It's Is it the best translation? Me shaking my head.
Speaker 1 (05:12):
No.
Speaker 2 (05:12):
Doesn't mean it's an inaccurate translation. It's just not the
best translation for you and I today to understand what
on earth it's saying. Yeah, it's it's our it's archaic language.
Speaker 1 (05:26):
Yeah, And that's and that's really what I came out
of it from. I was I was thinking about how
many times i'd probably been through the Old and New
Testament as a Mormon, and I probably have been through
it six or seven times, but the language is so tricky,
like especially in like the Pauline epistles, right, you get
(05:48):
in there and you're just like, what is paul even
talking about? Like it's very it's very hard in that
old English language to do that. And so I look
at how probably a lot of members of the church
past and present, you know, the ex Mormon world, how
(06:09):
they probably look at the Bible and they're like, well,
I think I understand it. I've read it, but you're
reading it through and you're also reading it through a
very Mormon lens, and it's like, yeah, I don't understand this,
Well what does the church tell me? It means right? Right?
And I don't think it's that much different for the
(06:35):
prophets and apostles of the Church. I actually think that
a lot of them are very biblically illiterate. And I
am going to kind of go through this. I think
people might think, wow, that's a really harsh statement, but
I want you to think, like, die, what would you
say is your foundation? Like if I'm throwing that stone
(07:00):
out there, what would you say is like your foundation
of biblical literacy as a pastor? What is that based
off of.
Speaker 2 (07:11):
Four years of Bible College, two years of a master's degree,
and thirty years of exclusively studying the Bible with the
help of the original language and concordances commentaries for parts
of it that I'm not an expert in. I rely
on the experts in that area to help me understand.
Speaker 1 (07:32):
Yeah, so there is this a lot of Biblical knowledge
and like original text, so we would talk like Greek Hebrew.
I'm not trying to be an expert in this, but
I'm just saying, like there is ay.
Speaker 2 (07:49):
There's an intentionality to understand it.
Speaker 1 (07:52):
Yeah, like you guys want to make sure it is
translated correctly, and we want.
Speaker 2 (07:58):
To understand this ancient Eastern book written by ancient Eastern people.
Two ancient Eastern people, we understand what they mean. When
we're not ancient or Eastern, we're modern and Western. So
that means there are things that I'm just not going
to get unless I do some study culturally and historically
to help me understand.
Speaker 1 (08:20):
Okay, So we heard about Dye's credentials where Die and
I'm sure other pastors like her. I don't think Die
is the one end all be all of you know,
biblical scholarship. I did a search to try to find
out who in the Mormon Church, Nose, Greek, Nose, Hebrew
(08:45):
has studied ancient texts. Okay, die, are you ready for
my exhaustive list here?
Speaker 2 (08:52):
I think so. But to be fair, I haven't. I
don't know the original languages. So are you saying that
have to be trained in original language or that that
they are reading other someone else's work.
Speaker 1 (09:07):
I would say that the pursuit is to try to understand, okay, context,
to understand what original words mean.
Speaker 2 (09:17):
Yeah?
Speaker 1 (09:17):
Yeah. Do I think you have to speak it fluently? No?
But I think that there's a there's a desire to,
and there's merit to the idea of really understanding what
the Bible says, or understanding one of these books that
(09:38):
you believe is the Word of God. Okay, died, this
is what I this is what I unearthed. Are you ready?
Speaker 2 (09:45):
I'm buckling up right now?
Speaker 1 (09:47):
All right? Joseph Smith's study of Hebrew in Kirtland. So
this is a BYU Religious Studies Center article and it
says the most formal, well documented, an influential exercise was
Joseph Smith's study in Kirtland, Ohio between the fall, so
(10:09):
let's just say September. I don't know, between the fall
of eighteen thirty five and the spring of eighteen thirty six.
Speaker 2 (10:22):
I'm biting my tongue. Okay, where'd this picture come from?
That's the most ridiculous picture for people can't see the
picture is that Joseph Smith sitting in a rocking chair
with a book that weighs I don't know, nineteen pounds
in gilded gold pages. That is the assumption that he's
(10:45):
just casually reading Hebrew in.
Speaker 1 (10:47):
This picture, casually he's got He's got it.
Speaker 2 (10:51):
There, Di strodigy, you picked it up really fast.
Speaker 1 (10:54):
Yeah, there you go. Yeah, it only took him. Let's
just say it was September to March. It only took
him eight months. And that is the most formal and
well documented is of Joseph Smith studying Hebrew for like
eight months. Okay, right, that is his biblical scholarship there,
(11:17):
all right. I don't know how I feel about that one.
So I want to talk about the current leadership today
and this I actually trashed a preview a podcast I
was going to do in the future about the current
apostles of the church and first presidency, because I think
(11:37):
it's really important to talk about what type of people
they are and what type of educational background they have. Okay,
so I have it for those of you who are watching,
This might be a really good episode to watch, just
maybe for this main graphic, so it shows first the
profit of the church. Russell M. Nelson was a heart
(11:58):
surgeon and he was the president of the Utah State
Medical Association. That's impressive, very impressive. Dalan A. Jokes, Justice
of the Utah Supreme Court and president of BYU the
Church School, right ye. And Russell Ballard businessman and owner
(12:19):
of Ballard Motor Company. I actually think he's deceased since
I have put this together, so I'm sorry for that one.
I don't know if that's correct. Jeffrey R. Holland was
president of BYU, Henry b Iring was president of Ricks College.
Deeter f Uchdorp was senior vice president of Flight Operations.
I think that was for Luftanza, but I didn't write
(12:41):
that on here. You can fact check me on that one.
David A. Bednar, president of BYU Idaho. Quentin Cook corporate attorney,
they like the lawyers. De Todd Christofferson was also a
lawyer for Bank of America, a corporate attorney for Bank
of America. Neil L. Anderson business executive. Donald A. Rasband
(13:05):
was a business executive for Huntsman. Gary E. Stevens was
a business executive. Daniel G. Runlan was a cardiologist, professor,
professor and medical director. Garrett W. Gong was in politics
and a professor, and Uleasy Sores was like an LDS
(13:25):
church employee and senior auditor. Okay, can I just throw
it out there? These dudes are rock stars like at
their profession. These guys are people that don't want it
on any board. Not going to disrespect them in that way.
If they were like, hey, Kai, your tiny businesses that
(13:47):
do nothing in revenue, we will be on your board
of directors. I would take any of them because I
think they're probably great administratively. But if you really look
at it, like, these are people who are supposed to
be leading the Lord's Church. These are people who are
(14:08):
supposed to be translating the Bible correctly. Don't you think
like one of them should be a biblical scholar?
Speaker 2 (14:18):
Right? It's interesting because I don't know how the governmental
structure works really the word apostle makes me think that
that there should be some biblical basis or seminary training
or something. But they do come off like they are
a board of directors.
Speaker 1 (14:37):
Yeah, it's very and and I think like if people
look at the Mormon Church from an administrative perspective, it
is run super well, Like it is administratively done really well. Die.
This is hurting my soul to give so many good
compliments to the Mormon Church, but it is. It's just,
(14:58):
you know, there's a great organizational structure. But I think
about it theologically, like what is there theologically that is
bringing people back to a standard, right, Like in the
Christian Church, the standard is the Bible. And any pastor
(15:19):
that goes up and preaches the Bible and preaches it
without teaching something false, anyone in that congregation can go
up to them and say, hey, like, I actually think
that you are off the rails here. I mean, is
that is that something that you are open to die?
Speaker 2 (15:38):
Oh sure, yes, yeah. If I teach something incorrectly, I'd
be mortified, but I would want to know, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1 (15:47):
And what would your reception of that be? Like, what
would your reception of, Hey, that wasn't biblically accurate, like.
Speaker 2 (15:54):
What to be totally honest. If I had studied it really,
really strongly, I might react with, you know what, let
me take a look at that this week and see
what I think about it. Thank you for bringing that up.
If I didn't study it well enough and I feel
like someone just caught me on something that I am
not well versed in, I'd probably be so humiliated and
(16:18):
just start apologizing and then say let me go, let
me go reread that this week and then figure out
how I'm going to publicly apologize next week.
Speaker 1 (16:29):
Yeah. So there's this idea in the church that if
it's said by the prophet or by the apostles, then
that is what's correct. Right. It's not what is said,
it is who says it. Okay, So you have this
idea of all of these people, and I'm not dogging
(16:50):
their credentials. I think their credentials are great and they're
very impressive, but none of them are biblical scholars. They
all may be no Mormon doctrine really well, and they
might know how that might work into how they view
the Bible and how they view the Book Mormon and
(17:10):
all of those things. But none of them are like
biblically strong, as in they are reading, they're like trying
to fully understand this Eastern book and all.
Speaker 2 (17:25):
At least not that we can see. It is possible
one of them or more of them have this private
side hobby of deep Biblical study and it's just not
a credentials. We just want to be fair and say,
maybe they love reading the Bible and we just don't know.
But it does not appear that they have been formally trained.
(17:48):
I think that's what you're looking for. There's no formal
training here, I am.
Speaker 1 (17:54):
I'm not saying that at all. I am saying that
they will willfully go against the Bible and be willfully
ignorant of it and hide behind a King James version
that is almost not understandable.
Speaker 2 (18:16):
Yes, I understand what your experience backs up what you're saying.
I'm trying to say from my seat, if I'm just
looking at this list and the credentials after them, that
doesn't tell me that these people don't have a love
for the Bible. They just don't have formal training as
part of their credentials. But now you're saying, but now
(18:39):
back it up with the experience of probably all Mormons.
And that's where you can that's the glaring weakness.
Speaker 1 (18:47):
Yeah, and that's where I say, if you really did
have a deep biblical understanding, your theology would be completely different.
And so we're going to get into a little bit
of theology and we're going to talk about that. And Die.
If me as just this guy talking about theology, if
(19:08):
I am way off, hey you can, you can rebuke
me here. But I do think it's really important because
when I came out of when I came out of Mormonism,
I would hear like these stories, like I would hear
Die preach up on the stage and I'd be like, yeah,
like I kind of know the story, Like I know,
you know, you could talk about the global flood. I'm like, yeah,
(19:29):
I know these general basic concepts, But how does that
find its way into theology, Like how does that find
its way into Mormon doctrine? And as I read through
the Bible, there were so many times where as a believer,
or even as a non believer, I would be listening
(19:52):
and I would hear something and I would say that
goes directly against Mormon doctrine. What we're going to cover
is not an exhaustive list at all. This is very personal,
very anecdotal, but just these moments where I'm reading through
the Bible in a translation that I can actually understand.
(20:16):
Just put that out there. I was reading through the
CSB when I really unearthed a lot of this stuff.
Christian Standard Bible given to me by Die's husband. I
was reading through it. This is the first thing that
made me think what and I want to I want
(20:37):
to paint the picture. In Mormonism, marriage is a foundation
of theological belief ceilings for time and all eternity to
people is how you are exalted, how you become like God.
You need your spouse. It's it's not optional. It's not
(21:02):
an optional thing. It is you need to be married.
You see these people get off their mission in a
fever pitch, get married, like within a year because it's
so not knowing anyone, they just find the person, get engaged,
get married. Right. It's a very core thing in the church.
(21:24):
And so as I'm reading through the Bible, kind of
I want to say for the first time, but without
that Mormon lens, without that Mormon filter, like we understand
filters in our society, right, people get catfished because there's
a filter over a picture or whatever. Without that Mormon filter,
(21:46):
I was able to read about marriage, and I was
able to read like, is it necessary? Here? We have
in one Corinthian seven we have this guy Paul, right,
the apostle Paul, and he's talking about marriage. He's talking
about it in a lot of different ways. If you
(22:08):
want to get more context, read this whole chapter and
you can tell me if you think contextually I'm taking
Paul's words incorrectly. But he says now to the unmarried,
like for me as a Mormon thinking about being unmarried, uh,
you know, kind of frightening, right, can't be exalted without
(22:30):
being married? Says now to the unmarried and the widows,
I say it is good for them to stay unmarried,
as I do, but if they cannot control themselves, they
should marry, or it is better for them to marry
(22:50):
than to burn with passion. Okay, I think I think
we can all kind of understand this. Right. He's saying
it's okay to be not married.
Speaker 2 (23:02):
Okay, what does the Mormon Church do with the fact
that Paul wasn't married.
Speaker 1 (23:08):
You're reading it in King James. I don't know if
you pick that up. I'm just being honest. I'm not
trying to be snarky. I just I don't think I
ever picked that up. That like, oh, and like a
lot of the apostles weren't married. Like of the twelve
that Jesus called twelve, the twelve disciples or apostles, a
lot of them weren't married. Right. I think if you
(23:29):
had a deep biblical understanding temple marriage, maybe wouldn't be
you know what it is? Right, he says, Now about virgins,
I have no command for So this is a little
further down, and I didn't want to read the whole chapter,
but please read it and get context and tell me
if I'm wrong. But now about virgins, I have no
(23:51):
command from the Lord, but I give judgment as one who,
by the Lord's mercy, is trustworthy. So a trusted sore.
I'm gonna give you some advice. Because of the present crisis.
I think it is good for man to remain as
he is. So if you're married, if you're pledged to
a woman, do not seek to be released. If you
(24:15):
are free from such a commitment, do not look for
a wife. Do not look for a wife. Okay, but
if you do not marry, you have not sinned. And
if a virgin marries, she has not sinned. But those
who marry will face many troubles in this life. And
I want to spare you this. Okay, marriage is tough. Okay,
(24:39):
well we've all heard that one before. I would like
for you to be free from concern. An unmarried man
is concerned about the lord's affairs, how he can please
the Lord. But a married man is concerned about the
affairs of this world and how he can please his wife.
(25:01):
And he talks about these affairs being divided. I think
this is really important. Guy, Like, here we are, we're
talking about, like, if you have to be married to
be in the celestial kingdom with God and to be
exalted and to be creating worlds after this.
Speaker 2 (25:20):
Life, why would you give an option?
Speaker 1 (25:22):
Yeah, And Paul's like, dude, it doesn't matter. And actually,
not only does it.
Speaker 3 (25:30):
Not matter, but if you are not married with no kids,
you are free from like the concerns of marriage.
Speaker 2 (25:43):
Have a divided interest. You can focus solely on God
without having to divide your interest with a spouse.
Speaker 1 (25:49):
With a spouse and kids in a household and this
and that, like you can fully dedicate yourself to God.
And I'm reading this and I'm thinking to myself, this
goes totally in the face of celestial marriage stealing and
this very fundamental Mormon doctrine. Yeah, if you let's just die,
(26:16):
I'm gonna go with your benefit of the doubt that
Dieter Ukdorf is sitting around and reading the Bible by
himself in a way that he can understand, and he
reads these verses and he finds a way to have
that mesh with Mormon doctrine. I don't think you can.
(26:41):
I don't either, and I don't think that's what he's doing.
I think he's saying it's good for people to marry.
That's what we're getting out of these verses. That's what
we're getting out of this chapter. It's good to be married,
and it's good to be a good spouse and to
(27:02):
meet your spouse's needs, which is what this chapter is saying.
Speaker 2 (27:05):
In fact, the section that starts it off is if
you're married, you shouldn't abstain from from sex, because then
you create temptation for you or for your partner, or
for both of you. And it in the background reason
for that is the culture had a belief system or
a religious belief system in it called gnosticism. Gnosticism believed
(27:28):
that physical bodies were that's not spiritual, like you, the
physical body and physical matter are are evil and the
spirit is what's good, so they have they must be separated.
So anything that involved the physical body was thought of
as dirty or evil or bad, including Jesus could not
(27:49):
have been in a physical body because God would never
inhabit something evil. Matter is evil, So that that is
just a reference back to what happens in your physical
bodies is not all bad. So sex inside of marriage
is where it's designed to be. So it's just an
interesting little cultural piece that gets put behind it.
Speaker 1 (28:10):
Yeah, I'm sure. I'm sure Cooda told me that. Just kidding. Sorry,
I shouldn't be so stark.
Speaker 2 (28:16):
It's a simple history search too, that's not a hard
thing to look up what gnosticism was and when it
was and it was that's the backdrop these letters are
written against.
Speaker 1 (28:26):
Yeah, hey and Deeter, you're welcome to come on the
podcast and clarify if you know all these like, honestly,
you are welcome. I actually I really like you. I
think you seem like a really nice guy, Okay, this
next thing, die, I should be less snarky, I should
be more professional. But I do think that there is
this idea that, like there's such a surface level biblical
(28:49):
understanding for these leaders who are trying to translate the
Bible correctly. And I think that if you are going
to take that title, like you should really be in
the text and you should really know the history. Yeah,
the next one and Diet, this actually has a very
personal contentation, like a very personal meaning to me. Before
(29:12):
I was a believer, I remember hearing this verse Hebrews
five to four, and if you had served a mission
like I had less than one. In the Restoration, they
have this verse of Hebrews five to four, and it
is no man ticket this honor unto himself except he
(29:32):
that is called as Is as was Aaron. Right, So
that's what it says in there, and what the Mormon
Church will say to give context is you can only
preach the Gospel if you have been ordained by somebody
who holds that authority, that Melchzedic priestood authority. And this
(29:55):
was their justification for it is that you have to
be called of God as Aaron was called of God.
Right by a physical ordination. Now, what's interesting about this
is if you look up Aaron's physical ordination, it's it's
actually very fuzzy there. There isn't like a I looked
(30:16):
it up in Joshua, and there isn't like we laid
our hands on Erin and gave him the priesthood.
Speaker 2 (30:21):
It doesn't it Moses saying I can't do this by myself,
and God saying, okay, fine, I'll give you Aaron to
help you.
Speaker 1 (30:29):
Period. That's his call. So so my point in saying
this is if you look up sometimes what you have
to do to give things context is we're in Hebrews four.
We actually don't know who the author of Hebrews is.
But in Hebrews four, at the end of the chapter
it starts to kind of give us context to who
(30:53):
the high priest is. And it's a little tough because
they don't they don't say, and then it goes to
chapter five, so you kind of lose it with that break.
It's kind of a bad break to say, like between
four and five, you got to kind of go to
verses before to get context to what five four is saying.
(31:14):
Hebrews five four saying, but he says, therefore, since we
have a great high priest, well, who is he talking about?
Who is the great high priest who ascended into heaven, Jesus,
the Son of God. Let us hold firmly to the
faith we possess, for we do not have a high
priest who is unable to empathize with our weakness, but
(31:38):
we have one who has been tempted in every way
just as we are, yet did not sin. Still talking
about Jesus, let us approach God's throne of grace with confidence,
so that we may receive mercy and find grace to
help us in our time of need. Okay, then the
(31:59):
chapter ends Die and we pick up in Hebrews five,
verse one. It says every high priest is selected from
among the people and is appointed to represent the people
in all the matters related to God. So he's still
talking about this like mosaic law levite thing. Right, he's
(32:23):
still talking about he talked about Jesus.
Speaker 2 (32:25):
Well, he's comparing them he or she, he or she.
By the way, the author of Hebrews could be female.
Speaker 1 (32:34):
Preach it die, Yeah, it could be a female. Hey,
there we go to represent the people in this matter
relating to God to offer gifts and sacrifices for sins.
Still talking about the old law, levitical law, he is
able to deal gently with those who are ignorant and
who have gone astray, since he himself is subject to weakness.
(32:58):
They're drawing a difference between the two. Jesus didn't have weakness.
They're saying that in the end of chapter four, this
is why he has to offer sacrifices for his own
sins as well as the sins of other people. And
no one takes this honor on himself, but he that
(33:19):
receives it when he's called of God, just as Aaron was.
The same way. Christ did not take upon himself the
glory of becoming a high priest. And it goes on here.
But I think we're kind of getting this idea that like,
we're not still trying to call people in this old
(33:40):
levitical way. He's saying there's a different way now, and
that is Jesus. Jesus is the high priest. So in
the Mormon Church we have high priests.
Speaker 2 (33:52):
Oh who's the high priest?
Speaker 1 (33:55):
So your ward, so the structure of your word, you
might have like ten high priests sat or twenty whoah.
So after you receive, after you have certain callings, or
you become a certain age, you become a high priest.
In you in the church, you're a high priest in.
Speaker 2 (34:17):
The order of Melchizedek. Is that the idea the.
Speaker 1 (34:20):
Order of Melkezidic? Yeah, which is I mean, from a
Christian perspective, pretty problematic because Jesus is our high priest.
But I remember, I just want to give why this
was so important to me is because I remember reading it,
(34:41):
and I remember reading it like almost for the first time,
really trying to investigate what it's saying, Like what is
what is this verse actually saying, and what is the
Mormon filter telling me it's saying? Right, the Mormon filter
is telling me, we have authority. We may give it
(35:06):
to you, you don't have it on your own. And
what Biblical Christianity is saying, Jesus is the high priest.
Speaker 2 (35:17):
What Biblical Christianity is saying is that system was temporary.
It was it was for a temporary way for humans
to interact with God. They had to do it through
an earthly priest. But what Melchizedeics showed us was as
a priest and a king outside of the levitical line,
(35:41):
that one who would come would be in that order,
would be like that would not be from the levitical line,
which Jesus was not, and would be a priest and
a king. And that is meant, of course to be
much bigger than the earthly office. So the whole overarching
thing of theme of Hebrews is Jesus offers a clear
(36:01):
version of everything that Jewish people knew that was less
clear and temporary. So Jesus is the high priest. The
form we had before was not could not save us,
it was I mean, that's why the priest had to
(36:22):
go in regularly and offer sacrifices. Jesus's sacrifice is the
last one needed because it's.
Speaker 1 (36:29):
Enough, okay and die. Is this pretty basic to Christianity?
Speaker 2 (36:36):
Yes?
Speaker 1 (36:36):
Yeah, And actually so.
Speaker 2 (36:39):
This this book because I've been studying Hebrews just so
happens the past couple of weeks. I taught it on
it to our interns here Adventure, but I've been studying
it for another group that I lead to. So I'm
not an expert, but I've spent a lot of time here.
The literary tool used to compose this book is what's
called an enclusive. It's like parentheses, and it's like everything
(37:04):
inside the parentheses is the argument for everything outside of
the parentheses. And it's almost the entire book is inside
the parentheses. It's like all those therefores, you have a
therefore right there at the beginning. All every time you
see therefore, they're all built on top of each other.
So you know, we have we had Moses, but because
(37:28):
we had Moses, we therefore have one that is better
who Therefore it's they all build a case on top
of each other, which is actually really interesting to study.
And then when you get to the very end, it's therefore,
because all this stuff that has been built as proof,
and Jesus is the ultimate high priest, we can endure.
(37:49):
That's the end. Like we can have faith, we can
endure suffering, we can get through this. So all of
the entire book Jesus modeled for us. He suffer, he endured,
he was, he remained faithful. Therefore so can we. He's
our high priest.
Speaker 1 (38:06):
Okay, perfect, So I think that this is and I'll
tell you die. This was. This was a real big
spark for me in my conversion to Christianity. Was like, oh,
I know this verse by heart, like I know, I
(38:28):
know it, like I know it through memory, but I
didn't know anything of the context. And when I started
to understand the context, I said, man, I probably didn't
understand this at all. Yeah, and that's where I find it.
I'm just gonna be honest and direct, because why stop
(38:50):
now I've been very honest and directly.
Speaker 2 (38:52):
I'm just kinda say as you usually aren't.
Speaker 1 (38:55):
I I think it's pretty nefairiou is, and like pretty
dishonest to put Hebrews five to four in a manual
as a way to claim authority. I actually believe it
points to your own ignorance. If I'm just being like,
you don't know, this is just something that sounds good
(39:19):
and that you can pull this first from.
Speaker 2 (39:22):
Well, and it's used manipulatively too. It's used to guide
people's actions in a way that they may not have
chosen for themselves. So that's manipulation.
Speaker 1 (39:33):
Yeah, yeah, I just I don't think it's I don't
think it's put in there in good faith. I guess
that's maybe MY big thing is it's like, if you
want to push your own doctrine, go for it, but
don't use don't use something out of context that's very
like you just have to read the verses and know that,
like this is not contextually correct, right.
Speaker 2 (39:55):
And just to make a point about your graphic, if
anyone's looking at it, where it says Hebrews five, and
then I underneath it has a five, that should be
a one, so it's chapter five, but you're starting with
verse one. I had to get out my Bible and
be like, wait, I'm.
Speaker 1 (40:10):
Sorry, Yeah, you're talking about my graphic where it says
Hebrews five. Yeah, sorry, that's chapter five, verse one. Yeah.
So just for those of you who are kind of
watching this online, I think this is a halfway decent
one to watch online. Okay, the next one and this
is you'll hear die. I have to. I have to
(40:32):
give you some credit on this one. So, while I
was still not a believer, my wife was full on
hardcore Christian and in the church, and she would go
through the Bible every single night through di'es program of
Bible in a.
Speaker 2 (40:50):
Year, oh, where I make comments every single day to
explain things.
Speaker 1 (40:56):
Yes, And what's funny is I'm not a believer, and
I'm also pretty annoyed with Christianity. But here I am
sitting there listening to the Bible every single night. There
were so many times in there where I would hear
something in language that I understood and just be like,
(41:17):
that is so not Mormon doctrine. Like there are so
many times where you would you would hear this and
you'd be like, that goes directly contrary to Mormon teachings, just.
Speaker 2 (41:32):
The straight reading, straight reading.
Speaker 1 (41:35):
You'd be like, you can't misinterpret this, like it's it's
going directly against it. And I would I would tell
my wife to push pause, and I would say, like,
I mean, obviously I'm not I'm not on board with
all this stuff you're studying. But it is interesting how
just different it is, like that wouldn't have stood up
(42:00):
and like that just doesn't stand up to Mormon doctor,
like it kind of strikes down Mormon doctrine. Is maybe
the wording I'm trying to say. And I had one
of those moments recently when I was at a church. Here,
we're church shopping right now, and I don't know when
this church shopping will end, but we are church shopping.
(42:22):
Every Sunday we go to a new church. And these
churches are very nice and lovely, I'm not going to
say anything negative about the churches around here. The pastor
was up there and he was preaching, and something stuck
out stood out to me that was interesting. And this
was a couple of weeks ago, so it's still fresh
(42:44):
in my mind. He quoted first Timothy one, and so
this is Paul again. He's sending a letter to his
buddy Timothy. Somebody kind of brought up a little bit,
and he's saying this thing to him. And I don't
think that this is a letter addressed to early leadership
(43:06):
of the Mormon Church, but I do think it's just
kind of funny. He says, as I urged you when
you were in Macedonia, so when you're in this other place,
stay here in ephesis, so he's telling him to stay here.
He's kind of given him his little mission call, so
that you may command certain people not to teach false
(43:26):
doctrine any longer. I'm like, oh, false doctrine. So that
kind of peaked my interest a little bit. Or to
devote themselves to myths and endless genealogies, and I'm like,
my ex Mormon buzzers are like going endless genealogies. Huh,
(43:49):
that's kind of interesting from a Mormon perspective, right, such
things promote controversial speculations rather than advance seeing God's work,
which is by faith. Sorry, sometimes I get so excited
that I interject way too much. Let me just read
(44:10):
it straight. So this is Paul talking to Timothy, as
I urged you when you went into Macedonia, stay here
in ephesis so that you may command certain people not
to teach false doctrines any longer, or to devote themselves
to misths and endless genealogies. Such things promote controversial speculations
(44:34):
rather than advancing God's work, which is by faith. Okay,
As an ex Mormon, I read this and it's like
Timothy's whole goal is to make sure that the right
things are being taught in the church.
Speaker 2 (44:54):
Right, Well, Paul, Paul is talking to Timothy.
Speaker 1 (44:59):
Yes, sorry did I mix that up? And I thought
this idea of myths, like, there are a lot of
weird myths in the Mormon Church. There's a lot of
weird theology, I would say, false doctrine people. The whole
idea behind the temple is dedicating yourself to literally endless genealogies. Right,
(45:29):
So this whole thing. And what I think what bothers
a lot of ex Mormons is they look at it
and they're like all that weird stuff from being Mormon
and like all this templework stuff and all this other
weird stuff that like, we can see the origins of it.
(45:50):
Even the most atheist X Mormon will say, we see
the origins of it. And it's not like biblical. It's
actually pretty like folk magic y yeah, myth mythological and mystical.
Speaker 2 (46:07):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (46:09):
And so I just you see these little like winks
from God where you're like, well, if you ever see
this patterned.
Speaker 2 (46:17):
Well, and this was happening at this time period too.
So it's not a new thing for humans to slide
into their own traditions. Because the bigger word for myths
would be even traditions or rituals or the things that
are outside of God's word are not God's word. And
so therefore for us to elevate them to the same
(46:39):
status as God's word is putting them in their improper place.
So those myths and traditions they belong lesser than God's
word and they should never contradict God's word.
Speaker 1 (46:51):
Yeah, And to hammer this home, like I think what
a lot of ex Mormons struggle with is like, like
all of these pretty like extra for a biblical ideas, right,
They're like polygamy is coheresive and wrong, and the way
that Joseph Smith practiced it is wrong. The way that
(47:14):
like power and excommunicating people and silencing people like that
is wrong. I put some funny things on here to
kind of lighten the mood. I'm not, but I do
think these are kind of funny, and I think that
they speak to like kind of this. Just like Joseph
(47:35):
Smith and Brigham Young were normal people, I see these
not normal. They were people. I should say.
Speaker 2 (47:43):
They were people, common people.
Speaker 1 (47:45):
Common people who maybe had some weird ideas. And these
are some really funny weird ideas. So this is from
the prophet Joseph Smith. He said, the inhabitants of the moon,
the inhabitants people living there. Inhabitants of the moon are
more of a uniform size than the inhabitants of the Earth,
(48:07):
being about six feet in height. They dress very much
like Quaker style and are quite general in the style
or the fashion of dress. They live to be very old,
coming generally near a thousand years.
Speaker 2 (48:25):
Is this well known. Is this some obscure quote somewhere.
Speaker 1 (48:30):
It's pretty obscure, but it's a tributed to Joseph Smith
that he said it. And it's like.
Speaker 2 (48:38):
That's doodle whack a doodle.
Speaker 1 (48:42):
But but is that something that would like promote controversy
and speculation rather than advancing God's work? Like if you
read that and you're like this, dude's Dude's like God
some ideas? Okay. The next one is by the second
Prophet of the Church. This is by Brigham Young. He says,
(49:02):
who can tell us of the inhabitants of this little
planet that shines off in the evening called the moon? Oh,
he's really chiming it up here. So it is regarded
to the inhabitants of the sun. Oh, do you think
it is inhabited? Rather think it is. Do you think
(49:27):
there is any life there? No question of it. It
is not made in vain.
Speaker 2 (49:36):
Is right up there with flat earth arguments?
Speaker 1 (49:39):
Yeah, get the tinfoil hat today. But those these things
and these ideas, these are man you know, kind of
you know, tinfoil hat ideas. They promote controversial speculation, right,
rather than advancing god work. Yeah, And I think and
(50:02):
there's so many other things in the Mormon Church and
in Mormon doctrine where you're like, this just actually makes
it a lot harder for people to believe.
Speaker 2 (50:13):
And Okay, thank you for saying that, because can I
interrupt for one second?
Speaker 1 (50:17):
Go ahead.
Speaker 2 (50:17):
The genealogy comment here can be confusing if you stop
for a second and go, wait a minute, I'm not
supposed to go on ancestry dot com. Is that what
it's telling me? Or why does the Bible have so
many genealogies inside of it? And so this is where
we have to understand what is the author actually trying
(50:39):
to say to their original audience, because we're trying to
put it into our modern day, and first we have
to start with what did it mean and what it means.
The context for this is the religious teachers of the law.
I don't want to say obsessed, because maybe that's not
fair and not accurate, but we're cared a lot about
(51:00):
tracing their lineage back to a noteworthy biblical character, maybe
to Abraham or to Moses, and that made them better
than and the world at this time is all about
including more than just the Jewish people in salvation, and
so that doesn't help. It doesn't help if you're trying
(51:21):
to prove that you're better than so stop working so
hard to prove your pedigree is better when everybody's included,
if they believe and receive the work that Jesus did
on the Cross.
Speaker 1 (51:35):
Yeah, and I think it's good to give this context.
But I look at how much time is spent towards
temple work in the Mormon Church and this endless genealogies.
Like I said, I don't think that this is directly like,
I don't think that Paul is writing this to Timothy
(51:57):
so that it can strike down the Mormon Church right
hundreds of years later. I'm not trying to say that,
but it's pretty close. He's like pointing out these very
specific things. Yeah, that are really interesting from an ex
Mormon perspective.
Speaker 2 (52:17):
And it does strike down I mean, if if the
if I understood right, Mormons are trying to research their
genealogy so that they can perform an act or work
on behalf of somebody who's already died. Correct yep, Okay,
so yes, that's not that's not what the genealogies are for.
(52:37):
That's that is that is that verse just tells you
what genealogies are not for They're not for exclusivity. They're
not They're not for any of our traditions or anything
we've added to the Bible.
Speaker 1 (52:51):
Yeah, and if you are assigning too much weight to them,
what it means. Yeah, you're seeing the point, right. And
so I listen to this and I am just like laughing.
I'm return to my wife and I'm just like, this
is like Mormonism right here, and it's so interesting, Like
(53:17):
if you read the Bible in context and you were
a Biblical scholar and you were biblically literate. No, I'm
not even talking. I'm just taking a surface level here,
not knowing the Greek and Hebrew to be like, this
whole temple work thing is not biblical. Nope, and we
need to find a way to like scrap that so
(53:39):
that we can be in line with strong biblical teaching. Yeah,
all right. I I personally think that that there is
a lot of ignorance from the leadership, and I think
the reason why is be because they don't want if
(54:02):
they change the theology, they worry about losing all the members.
I think that is a really terrible reason to make
bad decisions and to continue to make bad decisions because
(54:22):
with the amount of information that people have, Yep, they
are going to look at you and they are going
to say, I'm informed, I've actually read the Bible in
a version that I can understand, and you are the
only one who is inconsistent with this. Yeah, Like you're
(54:46):
the only one who's on the outside. And so as
I look at this, and I look at it from
an ex Mormon perspective, I would just hope that people
would just get a copy of Christian Standard Bible and
that's what I read NIV any of these versions, really
(55:08):
read through it and be like, man, is this the
same gospel that I thought I understood in the Mormon Church?
Like is this the same teaching? And can everything kind
of be refuted like doctrinally that I believed because they
aren't the same. And this has taken me a really
(55:28):
long time to get to this point. Die When we
first started podcasting, I don't know, I mean, my theology
was not really that good. And now I look at
it and I'm like, gosh, there are just so many
differences that it is a different gospel. Yeah, Like it
(55:50):
might have the same characters, but it's a different gospel. Yeah,
and it's different teaching, and so die do I ask
you the question again. Maybe I shouldn't put you on
the record, but I do think it's an important question
(56:12):
to ask. Are Mormon leaders biblically ignorant?
Speaker 2 (56:18):
I'd have to say yes, with the caveat that doesn't
mean dumb. They're clearly intelligent humans. The list of credentials
you showed me shows that there's a lot of intelligence,
but biblically intelligent it does not appear. So.
Speaker 1 (56:41):
Yeah, and I would say they're intelligent with Mormon doctrine,
Mormon policies, procedure, that's.
Speaker 2 (56:49):
The legal side. I would expect that from them. They
all have that, most of them have a legal side
to them.
Speaker 1 (56:55):
Yeah, so I and administratively great, but that doesn't mean
that they really understand what Jesus did, what the Gospel is,
and all those things is. This would be my encouragement
to people out there. If you are like I don't know, Kai,
just read read the New Testament cover to cover, YEP,
(57:16):
come back and say Kai, doctrinally you're wrong here here, okay,
I will take that. I'll even take that at my
email Kai, Sorry Jesus for Mormons at Gmail. Dot com.
You can send me an email saying I believe that
you are incorrect, Kai, and I will. I'll look into
(57:38):
that and really research it. And I think that's really
what happens in the in the Christian world is people
they want to be correct, they want to be right
with God. They don't want to be right in their
own mind and in their group of fifteen buddies. Yeah,
that's a kind of a job there at the first
(58:00):
Presidency and Korma, the twelve Apostles. They don't want to
be just right with those people. They sincerely want to
be right with God. And that standard, that textual standard,
is the Bible. So on that one.
Speaker 2 (58:17):
Good work.
Speaker 1 (58:18):
I don't know a little nuclear today, but I do, Die,
I really appreciate you being on People love you. Somebody
wrote in the comments. They wrote, yeah, if that gal
could keep talking and you could talk less, that would
be great.
Speaker 2 (58:33):
Oh no, no, oh wow, that's pretty funny.
Speaker 1 (58:39):
I just laugh. I agree with them. I agree with him, Die,
I really appreciate you helping me on this and going
through my story with me. And uh yeah, until next time.
And we love you guys.
Speaker 2 (58:53):
Yep.
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