Jesus for Mormons #38: Future Mormon God finds Jesus

Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:01):
Welcome to this episode of Jesus for Mormons. I am
joined by Brandy Bronson. Yeah, yeah, there we go. Brandy Bronson,
the writer of a book, The Journey to Jesus, and
we are really excited to have you on. Thanks for

(00:23):
coming on, Brandy.

Speaker 2 (00:24):
Thank you, Kai, it is so lovely to be here.

Speaker 3 (00:27):
All right.

Speaker 1 (00:27):
Well, one thing that I think is really interesting about
your story.

Speaker 3 (00:32):
Is this idea of the goal of God.

Speaker 1 (00:35):
Like, as a Mormon, you grow up in the church,
and your goal is I'll use the Mormon term exaltation, right,
and to become as God as God once was. Man
can become as Joseph Smith said. And so I just
want to kind of start with this topic of becoming

(00:57):
like God and exaltation and how that kind of weaves
its way into your story.

Speaker 2 (01:03):
Oh my goodness, Well where to start. It's I mean,
Godhead does everything, and kind of like we talked about before,
it's not necessarily like a self obsessed thing when you're
in Mormonism. It's not like, oh, I just want to,
you know, be so great and everything like that. You
truly feel as though this is what God wants for you.
And I remember telling my friends all the time like,

(01:23):
if you were, you know, a father, wouldn't you want
your child to become all that you are and have
everything that you have? And you're like, yes, that makes sense,
you know, so you know, we've kind of slapped that
will onto God. We appropriated that, like, of course that's
what you would want, you know, because that's what we
as humans want. So I grew up to thinking like
the grind and get that exaltation and marriage obviously is
a huge component of exaltation. And I gosh, since I

(01:48):
was a little girl, I was just looking through my
diary the other day and it was just like the
names of all the people I might marry one day,
and I was obsessed with the temple and getting there
and being married and that was the end goal in life.
So I just feel like that perfectionism also is in
there where it's just like you can reach it, you
must reach it. And so it was there was always
that grind of perfectionism, very competitive. All of those things

(02:09):
played into how I grew up.

Speaker 1 (02:12):
Yeah, do you think I obviously think about this side
of Mormonism a lot. You think that it affected your
relationship with God? Like, do you think it it set
a peer level with Jesus, right or likely?

Speaker 2 (02:34):
Yes, yeah, no, absolutely, because you're basically I mean, he's
there to show you how to live and then you
kind of replicate that process. He got baptized, You need
to get baptized. He did this, you need to get
You do this, and then hopefully you'll be able to
get to where he is. And so I mean I
always thought that it was just going to be me
and my husband later on in life. The goal was
never followship with him. As much as there was utility

(02:56):
in God. He uses the priestood, and we're going to
use the priestood to continue the secession of God's and
so he was It's almost like I needed him right now.
But you know that was the means to the end,
which was me and my husband, you know.

Speaker 3 (03:10):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (03:11):
And it's such a weird relationship that Mormons have with Jesus, right,
Like I am in the mainstream Christian world and it
is all about Jesus, Yes, and he is so much
more than what I am. Right, the I love this

(03:31):
Christian idea that after your life is over, like that's it,
and you just hope that Jesus is glorified, right, like
that is the only thing that you want, and in Mormonism,
it is the hope that we will be glorified. Yeah, yes,

(03:52):
we will be exalted to this to this level. And
you know we kings and means priests and priestesses to
the Most High God. For those of you who have
been through the Temple, you'll kind of maybe that will
ring true to you, but it's just an it's just
an interesting idea that of godhood. And I wanted to

(04:15):
just start our interview with this conversation. And as I've
left Mormonism, Sorry, Brandy, I'm not meaning to talk over you,
but as I've left Mormonism, God has become like I've
been able to realize that how great really he is?

Speaker 2 (04:35):
Yes?

Speaker 3 (04:37):
Right, have you ever just.

Speaker 1 (04:39):
Stood out there and been like, Gosh, God, I hope
I did not humanize you to the point where you
kind of lost some significance in my life.

Speaker 2 (04:50):
Well, yeah, and you look at it from I was
actually thinking about this the other day because mystery to
an LDS is kind of like, if it's mysterious, then
it isn't true. And this is what I mean by that,
the more specificity you can offer as to who God is,
Like you mentioned Joseph Smith when it's like, if you
can't perceive God, then you can't perceive yourself, right, It's like,
you should be able to comprehend the nature of God,

(05:11):
you should be able to grapple with all this, or
it's not true. And that's the way I thought about it.
I'm like, this is a cop out to say that
God is a mystery or he's so big that we
can't fully grasp him. He's an exalted man, like I
can picture on what that is, you know what I mean.
And so it felt more true because it was able
to be understood better. And so it's so funny you're
saying this, because the two big things for me leaving
the LDS Church and finding the Biblical Christ was learning

(05:33):
about the fact that the Creator and the creation are
two very different things, and that we can't become an
uncreated God. That's just not even a possibility for us.
And so you know, my motivations changed, my goals changed.
But then also this idea of a sayety, which was
like a fancy word for us, essentially mean that God
is self existent. He doesn't rely on anything external to

(05:55):
himself to exist, And like my mind was like Bologne
because for us at least, I mean, I won't speak
for you, but like I pictured God as like you know,
he had a God, what a God? What a God?
And there's this like forever secession of gods, and really
the only thing that existed eternally was like the system,
like the priesthood and the authority that always has existed
to create the gods, but not God himself. If that

(06:18):
makes sense.

Speaker 1 (06:19):
Yeah, gosh, there are so many ways we could go
about this, but I do think that there is this
humanizing factor totally that the church tries to push and
tries to I'm just gonna say it, dumb down God,

(06:40):
so that you know, it makes it makes sense quote
unquote to two members of the church. But in a
way it diminishes like how great God is, like we
talk about, oh, dear, here we go. We're going to
open it up like sovereignty, like the sovereignty of God. Yeah, yeah,

(07:03):
that God can do whatever he wants to do.

Speaker 2 (07:06):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (07:07):
And then you that goes against I the Lord and
bound when you do what I say, but when you
do not what I say, you have no promise. That
goes directly in contradictions. So for those of you who
don't know that references from DNC. It was a scripture mastery. Sorry,
I just pulled it off the top of my head
and I don't have the reference. But that's what Joseph

(07:28):
Smith said. He said, speaking for God, he said, I
the Lord am bound when you do what I say,
meaning God does not have sovereignty. He is literally bound
when you do what he says, and when you do
not what I say, you have no promise. I think
Joseph was just talking there for himself and hoping that

(07:50):
people listen to what he said. All right, well, let's
get into your story, Brandy. I mean we started off
with kind of some interesting stuff. Yes, tell the people
a little bit about you and what kind of led
you to, you know, write this book. I think that's
really interesting, and congratulations on writing it.

Speaker 2 (08:15):
So yeah, it's really see. Actually, before I get into that,
I would love to say thank you for having me on,
but also just creating the space for ex Mormons who
have found the Biblical Christ to speak, because I don't know,
I feel like there's such a need for that right now.
There's a lot of Mormons leaving the church, but I
think they're only I mean they believe the church, as
did I when I left that it's either them or

(08:35):
it's no one. You know, it's like we either have
the Church the truth or no one has the truth.
And it's like a lot of people buy that even
after they leave the church. And so I'm grateful to
have found the biblical Christ, but I'm also grateful for
people like you who I know this isn't probably not
easy to have to run all this YouTube stuff and
have people on, but you're basically holding like virtual testimony meetings.
So this is kind of cool, right, we can carry

(08:57):
on the testimony meeting, you know, thing that we do
in Mormonism. And it's not the first Sunday of the month,
but I would love to share my testimony today. So
that's my opening.

Speaker 3 (09:07):
Okay, there you go, There I go.

Speaker 2 (09:10):
So I was born in a very traditional Mormon family
family of six. I'm the oldest girl and my mom,
I told you before the show, she actually was raised
as a Methodist prior to becoming a Mormon. And like
we talked about, converts are so cool in Mormonism, Like
people just glob onto them. They're like, you weren't born
in the Covenant, Like this is so crazy. So I

(09:30):
always loved like kind of locking my hair and be
like my mom's a convert, you know, like we're cool.
So I really loved that. But my dad, he actually
came from a long lineage of saints. He was one
of thirteen, so I have a lot of uncles and
aunts and they had a lot of babies. That was
all Mormons do. So the family reunions are insane, and yeah,
it was always really wild growing up. But anyways, so

(09:52):
that's my dad's side, and he was more analytical, like
he was really into the like the doctrine, and so
I would go to him for more of my theological
questions and stuff like that. And my mom was a
little more like the feeler, you know, like I just
know the Church is true, and especially coming from her background,
she was like, you know, Christianity doesn't offer what Mormonism can.
And so I was always just really sure that we
had the truth, you know, and that Christianity really lacked

(10:15):
in some severe ways, not just with authority but also
with actual doctrine. So I basically was I don't know,
I just never doubted, I never questioned it. I grew
up I was very confident and like we talked about
before Pride, competitive, like I was all those things. If
I was going to do something, I had to go
all the way in. And I think I don't know
if Mormonism made me that way or if I just
already had that temperament and it just like brought it

(10:36):
out to like the millionth degree, which is really scary.
But I had to do everything and be perfect and
all the things. And so if I was going to
play soccer, I had to do varsity. If I was
going to do broadcasting, I had to do morning news.
You know, I had to do all the things. So
I was just always working hard and outworking everybody. So
I love that. I didn't really like hanging out with
a lot of lds, to be honest with you, because
I kind of felt like I felt like if if

(10:57):
I wasn't doing all the things, then I was kind
of a jack, which I want to consider myself the
Jack Mormon. But you know, sometimes I was playing sports
and I didn't go to mutual and I had a
lot of non Mormon friends, and I think that kind
of put me in this weird like thing where like
no one really understood who I was because to the
world it was like, Oh, you're Mormon and you don't
drink and you don't smoke, and you know, you're goody

(11:18):
two shoes the Mormons. I'm like, well, you're not going
to all the things all the time, and you're playing
soccer and you have non Mormon friends. So like, no
one knew what to do with me, and I kind
of liked it that way, to be honest with you.

Speaker 1 (11:28):
Okay, So where did you grow up? Where would you
call hometown California?

Speaker 2 (11:34):
I grew up in Rockland, California.

Speaker 1 (11:36):
Okay, Rockland, California. Ah right, I had a missionary companion
from Rockland, California. Yeah, Nicholas Takis, which is maybe I
shouldn't name drop him here. You were from He was
from Rockland, California. Okay, So you were from there and
you did pretty competitive in sports. I wonder what it

(11:59):
is about Mormon culture that does drive people to be
very driven through athletics or you know, through school or
whatever that is. But you were definitely feeling the effects
of that. Oh yeah as a young young kid. So
you went through your high school years maybe not fitting

(12:23):
in with either side either group. Yes, hardcore true believing,
and then maybe the athletic jock type and you were
somewhere somewhere in the middle there.

Speaker 2 (12:37):
Yeah, like I would say that, Like I actually, to
be honest with you, I thought that I had a
greater faith than the Mollies. Of the Mollies because I
felt that they had to stay kind of like insulated
in order to keep their testimony. And I was like,
I'm out, Like I can go to a party, i
can pick up my friends who are drinking, and I'm
not even enticed by that, Like it doesn't even you know,
I'm out with the wolves. I felt like I could

(12:58):
totally be an evangelist to them, you know, every missionary.
I was like, that's me. So like I actually felt
I alas resented that they were like, well, if you're
not doing all of the mutuals and you're not going
to all the stake events, church isn't enough. Like you
got to do all the things. And for me, my family,
I'm so grateful my mom let me have non eldiest friends.
I mean, we still had a very traditional upbringing. We
didn't have friends over on Sundays, we didn't go shopping,

(13:20):
you know, we kept the Sabbath, but all those things.
It just wasn't like, oh, but you don't hit everything,
so I kind of resented them a little bit. I'm
gonna be honest with you, where I was like, how
much could you do what I'm doing, have the friends
that I have, and still be an example to them
without being pulled down, you know, by by their influences.
So I actually felt really prideful because I felt better
than the world, but I also felt better than the Mormons.

(13:40):
So I was just like, hi, on my own stuff.
So that's the truth.

Speaker 1 (13:47):
Hi, I'm Brandy Bronston. I'm better than you, and I know.

Speaker 2 (13:50):
It matter that everyone.

Speaker 1 (13:56):
Okay, So I'm sorry, Brandy. Maybe I took it a
little too far there.

Speaker 2 (14:01):
That was actually yeah, that sounded just like me.

Speaker 1 (14:07):
So, so you're in this like in school, you're just
you're you're kind of figuring this out, and I assumed
you were pretty you know, kind of moral going through that.
So how did this and you were also taking your
cataloging your future celestial spouse?

Speaker 3 (14:27):
How does that kind of work its way?

Speaker 1 (14:29):
Did you go off to school afterwards? Did you meet
your husband high school?

Speaker 3 (14:34):
How did that? How did that work?

Speaker 2 (14:36):
Yeah? So I had my whole life mapped out for
me since I before I could walk. So it was
like I already knew I was going to get baptized.
I know I was going to go through Young Women's
I knew I was going to go to BYU. I
knew I was going to get married in the Temple.
I knew I was going to have at least three
to five kids and drive a minivan. And literally all
that happened to a t and I loved it. I
sipe off of the boxes.

Speaker 1 (14:56):
Nice you wanted the minivan.

Speaker 2 (14:58):
Oh I craved it. Yeah, yeah, because you don't at
the highest level. And there's even ben again, that's just
where it is.

Speaker 1 (15:06):
That's the new Mormon theology right there.

Speaker 2 (15:10):
Not large SUVs, but minivans were really cool like fifteen
years ago. So I had my eye on the prize
minivan marriage. Oh my gosh. I had this like little sign.
It's even written in my book. It says I'm going
there some date. And I had a picture of the
temple in the background, and I was enveloped and what
they did in the temple, and I just knew that
the goal was, like they say, the most important thing
you could ever do in your life is marry the
right person. At the right time, in the right place.

(15:31):
And so again, the most important thing in your life
isn't to be born again and to you know, give
your life to Christ and be regenerated by him. It
is to find a spouse. So that's what I focused on.
I was not deterred. I could have boyfriends in high
school and that was fine. Most of them were actually
non lds. But like I was, I was a good girl,
straight edged, and I knew, you know, like what my

(15:52):
goals were. So I knew I was going to get
in to bau I didn't even apply to anywhere else,
and I worked really hard. I did seminary, I you know,
got really good grades and I went off to college
and so but I knew that when I got to
college that I could kind of go because my husband
was just gonna take care of me. I just, you know,
I was like, I'll just going too badcast that'll be great.
So I was more I just wanted the mrs degree.

(16:12):
That's really what I wanted.

Speaker 1 (16:14):
Hold on the mrs degree. Yes, what is an mr
s degree?

Speaker 2 (16:21):
And lit his degree to get married?

Speaker 1 (16:24):
Oh I've never heard that before, Well, missus. Oh yeah,
so that's the degree that you wanted.

Speaker 3 (16:32):
So you end up going to b Yu.

Speaker 1 (16:35):
You are a cougar, you are rise and shout yes
at the y and how did that work out?

Speaker 3 (16:43):
You?

Speaker 1 (16:43):
You're looking for this, you know, partner, this celestial partner
for the rest of your life and yeah, tell us
about that.

Speaker 2 (16:54):
Well. I had never really been to Utah, and when
I got there, I was like, what is this place?
Because as much as I felt kind of misunderstood by
the Malli of the Mollies in my homeword, I felt
just so out of place in Utah. I mean, I have,
you know, very wild and I have a lot of energy,
and so I just felt like, I don't know, I

(17:14):
just felt it's the cream of the crop, right, Like
they're academically, like they're the best. They are really smart,
they're and they're not playing around. And so I felt
kind of like, however, the standard was where I lived
growing up, that it was just like magnified when you
got to Utah, and so I had to learn a
whole different culture. I really really did. Provo is very
It's very different than California, I will tell you that much.

Speaker 1 (17:37):
So what do you mean by that? I only lived
in Provo for two weeks at the MTC. What do
you mean by like it is a different culture as
far as expectation or I guess I want to know
what do you mean?

Speaker 2 (17:54):
Okay, Well, like basically we all have this standard. We
all know what we're supposed to dress, how we're supposed
to speak, what we're supposed to do, and there's just
this gosh, I don't really know how to describe it
as much as it's just everybody knows everybody else's business,
and there is this expectation. This the aesthetics matter the
way you you know, you're not supposed to Like, for example,

(18:14):
back in the day, like if you were to plan
on the soccer team and it was like shirt's burstus
skins or whatever. You know, you're you're run around your
sports bar or whatever it's hot out here. You can't
do that in provo, like that would be a no no.
So I'm relearning cultural rules where it's like, oh, this
is a different kind of vibe out here. Do you
get what I'm saying? So you have to learn to
be a little bit more like oh, like yeah, okay,
it's like it's like pre woman, you know, like she's

(18:36):
going to the really really nice place the joints, and
you're like, Okay, I have to just like settle down
a little bit and be a little bit more, you know,
whatever I'm supposed to be.

Speaker 1 (18:45):
So like, so you've felt this pressure to be like
hardcore all in. Yes, modesty is of the utmost importance. Yes, yes,
how you tak and how you present yourself is And
that was something that was Do you feel like it

(19:07):
was inescapable going to BYU like everyone kind of knew
New Year's business news going on with you?

Speaker 2 (19:14):
Yes, yes, And again I usually had non LDS friends
and so it was a really big culture shop too
to only have really into my friends. I will say
though I loved my bay you were mad. They are
amazing women, and I actually my testimony just got so
much stronger, even though I started to clash a little
bit more with like why there was so much judgment
going on? I was kind of like and I was.
I remember calling my mom on the phone and being like,
I feel like everyone's at church all the time, but

(19:37):
yet we're all just so self righteous and like there's
so much judging, and like, you know, everyone would know
if you didn't fast on fast Sunday, everyone would know,
you know, like they just know everything all the time,
and so I just felt like everyone's motivations and I
can't speak to this, and this sounds really judgmental. I
loved my time at BAU by the way, I feel
like really focusing on the negative, but I just felt
like so much of those motivations were more horizontal than

(19:58):
they were vertical, and I felt felt like everyone was
a little bit more interested in how they looked than
anything else. And so I just had to kind of
get used to that culture. But I would say that
that God really blessed me with some really amazing women
in my dorm room that weren't like that. They really weren't.
But I think at large, it's just a culture in
Utah County was I felt really suffocated, to be honest

(20:20):
with you. But at the same time, I started going
to the temple more than I ever had. I mean,
I was immersed in the Book of Mormon and taking
all of the classes that you have to take a
VYU for your religion courses, and I felt like I
just became such a stronger I always thought I couldn't
get any stronger, my faith couldn't even stronger. I loved
my faith and I loved the church, and I even

(20:41):
considered serving a mission. They changed the policy right when
I was a sophomore, So I was nineteen, right when
they changed it so women could serve it at nineteen,
and I felt like God had to like put that
on my heart and I was like, oh my gosh,
So I like prayed about it. I talked to women
who had served before me, and I turned out that
I was like, I really just think that I'm I
need to get married, like I got to get married.

Speaker 1 (21:03):
Well that's a shock, right, they felt this huge pressure
to get married.

Speaker 3 (21:08):
Huh.

Speaker 2 (21:09):
Right.

Speaker 1 (21:11):
I do want to back up on this idea though,
of like judgment right and judgment coming from peers. I
wonder if it has to do with this idea of
a common judge in Israel, right, like you hear that
term in the Mormon Church referring to like a bishop

(21:31):
referring to And I wonder if because the standard is
all am I viewed by this man, I wonder how
that finds its way into culture.

Speaker 2 (21:44):
Oh absolutely, Oh my gosh, yes, absolutely. Your dedication to
the church and the way that you yes, your whole
aura says so much about it. And you're trying to
prove and actually was talking to I didn't even remember
who I was talking to you about this recently. But
I feel like because we all deep down know that
we're not keeping all the commandments and that we are
vain and that we are self centered, and that we
do gossip about people, and like we aren't doing all

(22:05):
that we can do. Even though we say, oh, well,
after all we can do, we know we're not doing
all can do. The second you pick up your phone
and you're on Instagram instead of reading your Bible, you've
now done not all that you can do. And so
I think we have to actually start focusing more on
the aesthetics and like the outside and following all the
external codes. And it's like we have to overcompensate. And
I felt like maybe that's what some people were doing,
is like I know that inside I'm not doing everything

(22:28):
I should be doing, but on the outside, I'm sure
is that gonna look like I got all put together,
you know, and I'm going to declare myself worthy to
get into that temple and to do all those things
and so and honestly, it also is the culture of like,
as long as you're not doing a big sin, as
long as you're not doing a sin that can get
you outside of the temple. When in reality, if you
really listen to Jesus's words, I mean, he's like, even
if you hate someone, you have committed murder like this

(22:50):
is this is like we're elevating the standard and we're
not hitting it. So no one should be able to
raise their hand and say I am worthy to enter
God's house right now. You know, I've shed all of
that sin and I'm I'm worthy. So I think you
do have to overcompensate on the outside.

Speaker 3 (23:05):
Yeah, I think that The.

Speaker 1 (23:07):
Craziest question on the Temple recommend interview is do you
consider yourself worthy to enter the House of the Lord? Yes,
every single person who's ever lived, aside from Jesus should
say no. You should say no. I'm talking about me

(23:30):
right now, I'm talking about any person who ever lived
should say I do not. I am not worthy to
enter the House of the Lord. I think about that
all the time, and I think, but you look at
what Jesus taught. I mean, look at what Jesus taught
when he told people you are like a glass that

(23:51):
is clean on the outside, but is dirty on the inside, right,
I mean, and that's the esthetic that has put out.

Speaker 3 (23:59):
So much in the church.

Speaker 1 (24:02):
I can't speak for you, but I know for a
lot of men that's a really hard thing to and
I think there's a lot of shame and a lot
of people who put up, you know, these guards where
they know they aren't living right and they feel that
they can't express themselves and say, hey, I'm actually really
struggling with this. And I think that the more barriers

(24:25):
that the church puts on people to actually confess and
move in the right direction. Yea, those just aren't healthy.
Barriers like those aren't healthy things to for people to
act like everything is perfect. That is not healthy.

Speaker 2 (24:43):
No. Also, it leads it so we don't feel like
we need Christ or okay. So this is what legalism does. Right,
There's basically two outcomes with a legalistic mindset. You're either
one completely you know, crushed by the weight of the law,
and you are you're all the time feeling that like
you said, it's like this impossible standard, especially for prestoos,
where you're like, I have to have God's power with me.
And if you read what's required to hold God's power,

(25:05):
I mean you can't send sense of commission and an
omission or amen to that man's priesthood like by you
don't have it anymore. And so that standard is impossible,
and so men know that. So you're either crushed by
that or you've somehow convinced yourself that you are worthy,
and at that point you're prideful and you don't feel
as though unique grace. And so either way, we're not
working with a good system here. This isn't the gospels.

(25:26):
That's not what the gospel is.

Speaker 1 (25:28):
Yeah, yeah, And I think it's Uh, I think it
can be really damaging. I guess I shouldn't have said
for men. I just know for me personally, and a
lot of the struggles I know a lot of men have.
But it's the same with women. Right, one of their kids,
you know, they're supposed to be nurturing these children. One
of these kids goes wayward and they torment themselves. You know,

(25:50):
did I do enough? Was I enough? It's like, h no,
none of us are enough. I mean that's the point,
none of us enough. Yeah, And I think that it's
really damaging to our people, our culture. I'm talking about
Mormonism and Mormons in general. It's really damaging for our

(26:12):
culture for people to continue to put all of that
responsibility back on themselves. And you know, from a very
Christian perspective, you hand that over to the Lord. So
you're in this perfection or legalism in b Yu. You
are on the man hunt for your mrs degree. Yes,

(26:36):
let's talk a little about that. So you tell us
about your husband. You and your husband, how you met?

Speaker 2 (26:41):
Okay, okay, So my husband actually served in LDS mission
with my brother, so they served in Spain for two
years together. And so I remember I was at a
BAU football game and I saw him for the first time,
and he thought me and my brother were dating. And
so that was awkward because he was like, oh, your
girlfriend's cue and he's like, that's gross, that's my sister.

(27:02):
And he's like, oh whatever, like laughed it off, and
I was like so anyway, So it took a while
for him to actually he kept thinking my brother was
kidding because my brother is a total goofball and so
he didn't believe us, and I was like, no, please, like,
we're not dating. So it took a while for that
to simmer down, which was weird. But we started we
met and then we were married with in the same year.
I was a junior in college and so yeah, I

(27:25):
mean there's really not much that story except I dated
a lot and then I feel like I could never
get like a second date. It was like either I
talked too much or he didn't talk enough, or it
was just like I never could you just go through
him so fast because at BYU, you're like, I got
to get, you know, somebody before I graduate or I'm
an old maiden. And so I remember freaking out. It

(27:46):
was my junior year. It was before I met AJ,
and I was like, I'm never gonna get married, Like
this isn't going to happen for me.

Speaker 1 (27:52):
And I was like, how old were you at the time.
I mean, just to give the non Mormons out there perspective,
how old were you, Yeah.

Speaker 2 (28:01):
Nineteen or twenty nineteen, end of nineteen, early twenties.

Speaker 1 (28:05):
Okay, So just to give respective, this is a twenty
year old girl thinking she's never gonna get married unless
she locks it down at BYU.

Speaker 2 (28:13):
Yep, yep. So I was feeling I was feeling the heat.
And I remember there's another girl outside of the broadcast station.
She was a senior and she was like, I could
tell a fear was in her eyes. And I was like,
are you worried You're gonna have to graduate without getting
a ring on your finger? And she's like yeah, And
I'm like me too, Like we just bonded over that
and not the only time I ever talked to her.
But I was like, yeah, this is ru So yeah,

(28:38):
but I was so grateful because it was so funny, though,
kai because I also wanted to push against the culture.
I didn't want to get married until I had graduated.
I'd like set these arbitrary rules for myself. I was like,
I'm not going to follow all my roommates who got
married within the same semester, you know, Like that's too Mollie,
But I need to make sure I have a ring
on my finger by the time I graduate, Like I
need I don't need to move away after BYU and

(28:59):
have to start trying to find somebody. This is going
to be the best pot of guys that I ever have.
But I just I don't want to get married in college.
Like that was a little too too much for me,
you know, Like so so anyway, so I made these
arbitrary rules, like I need to be engaged by the
time I graduate, but I cannot be married before I
graduate because that's too much on the other side. And
I ended up breaking my rule getting married in college.

(29:22):
It was in between semesters, so it was at Christmas break.
I got married right before Christmas. And yeah. So, I
mean we met and immediately I knew he was just
he was absolutely my soulmate. So we just got along
so well. And he's from Utah and I was like,
I cannot live out here. So he was like, okay.
So we moved back to California, but he finished up
as master's at BYU. We start having babies immediately, and

(29:45):
so I worked for a bit and then yeah, we
had three babies and moved to California.

Speaker 1 (29:49):
Wow beautiful. Yeah, and so what did that look like,
I mean, after you left kind of that bubble of BYU, right,
what did that look like as far as adult activity
in the church, Like, were you guys kind of taking
a break, Hey, we're outside of this you know, Mormon

(30:10):
bubble or was it full steam ahead where this young
family that is just you know, fulfilling all of our
callings and doing all those things.

Speaker 3 (30:20):
What did that look like for you guys?

Speaker 1 (30:22):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (30:22):
Well, when I met aj, he was Elderscorn president and
he was very, very active in his word. And I
really like that, Like I wanted a I would not
have dated or married a man who came back early
from his mission. And I know that sounds terrible, but
that was like that was written in my diary. It
was canonized. I could not deviate from that. I had
to marry a man who was a full time missionary.
And so he was. He checked every single box that
I had made when I was seven years old. And

(30:45):
so he spoke Spanish, which was a requirement. And so
I on, hold.

Speaker 1 (30:50):
On, that was a requirement, or that was not a requirement.

Speaker 2 (30:53):
It was a requirement.

Speaker 3 (30:57):
Okay, there we go. She's got that going.

Speaker 2 (31:01):
I was so depressed. I was dating all these guys
and like you hit fifteen out of twenty. But you know,
it just wasn't. I mean, we're talking about eternity, okay, Kai,
we're talking about eternity. So I was. I was very Yeah,
I was very specific. But anyways, so he was very
active in his word. I was reactive in my award.
I was Released Study president right before no excuse me.
I was teaching Release Society not the president right then,

(31:22):
and so we moved into Obviously, we got married, we
moved in together, had London and then you know, we
had a few more babies, but we moved in with
my parents when we came to California originally, and when
we moved in with my parents, we were just in
my old ward growing up, so we went to that ward.
I didn't hold a calling there because I was had
newborns and you know, and was pregnant and I just
never stopped having I felt like I had kids forever.

(31:44):
Within like a four year period, I had three babies.
It was just like insane and so I was puking
all the time or just holding but it was just
like it was chaos. So I didn't I wasn't like
I wouldn't say that I was as active as I
could have been. But I did go to church every
week and you know, participated, and my dad was the
organist growing up, and so we always had RpW. You know,
so like if you were staring at the pulpit to

(32:05):
the left front row, that was our bench, and he'd
always have his like hymnoles and church manuals and bocal
Mormons and stuff out so we move those we all
sit down, and now I had my little babies, and
it was really cute actually to be in my homeward
and to see to kind of come back in my
mom could show me off to everybody with the babies.
And because you made it, you got married like you
did it, married in the temple and all of that

(32:27):
good stuff.

Speaker 1 (32:27):
I think it's interesting I go to that imagery right
everyone knows left left side, you know, a few rows back,
and then saving your space and all of those things
that are very very like quintessentially Mormon. So you have
kind of this really happy ideal, like you know, setting

(32:49):
with your with your family and this new family that
you have with these three little kids. When did that
When did that start to change while being in the church,
or or how long did that did that period go
on for?

Speaker 2 (33:05):
Yeah, Well, we left my mom's word and we moved
into the house that we currently own. And when we
did that, it was kind of at a weird time
because my husband actually lived in a different city for
a few years. He was out there for a job,
so it was hard because he lived in a camper
and then came home on the weekends, and it was
really hard because you know, we're I'm having babies, and
so it was lonely for me, it was lonely for him.

(33:27):
It was really hard for that little while, but he
had to do it for his job, so we kind
of just made it work. But it was really hard
to get to church because you know, Daddy wasn't always
there on right when we needed him to be. So
so I tried to take the kids as much as
possible in menu ward, but I was not in a
position where I could really give anything at that point.
So I was hanging on by a threat, to be

(33:48):
honest with you, so I was just doing what I could.
I remember, though, just reading my Book of Mormon, you know,
reading especially conference talks. I loved reading conference talks. So
if I couldn't get to my Book of Mormon, it
would just be a conference talk. I tried to make
sure at least I could, I was stick, you know,
just check it off, you know, as long as I
could check it off, and I still wasn't, I was
doing good, and so so that was kind of how
I played it. But then COVID happened and it got

(34:08):
really weird because when we moved in, we had about
a year and a half before everything just went crazy,
and so, you know, I never really integrated fully into
the world that we were in because of everything that
just went down. But it was during during COVID, and
I know your story is very similar, but a lot
of things just started happening where I kind of felt
like confused as to the church's position on certain things.

(34:31):
And I won't really get into those just because that's
not really relevant. But I did start to question, like
if there was kind of like the leadership is going rogue.
I was like, maybe this is like another mini apostasy,
because I know the Book of Mormon's true, and I
know Joseph Smith is real prophet, and but like, why
is the church acting this way right now? You know?
And I was born into a very Americanized home, like

(34:53):
the you know, the what was the quote I always said,
you can't have an eighteen thirty unless you have a
seventeen seventy six, right like you And what was born
for the Book of Mormon essentially is what I believed.
And I knew that, you know, adam On diomen I
had a ticket to adam On Diamon for the end
of times. I knew that that was going to be
I could get in there, and that I knew the
Garden of Eden was going to be, like I knew

(35:14):
all of just America, right, was very American centric and
so very conservative, and so some of the things that
were happening I was just kind of confused about. But again,
I didn't question the validity of the LDS Church. And
it wasn't until I talked to a family member who
I knew had been struggling with their testimony. I won't
really name who they are, but they told me to
go to the site called Mormon Think and I was like,

(35:35):
I will would, because you don't do that, right, You
don't go to somewhere to learn about church history that
isn't from the church, you know. Yeah, so that was
like really weird.

Speaker 1 (35:45):
Yeah, yeah, that's a really hard that's a really hard
thing to try to try to step outside of what
the leadership tells you to do. And every good Mormon
kind of know was that, especially especially if you've served
a mission. You know that they really control the content.

(36:07):
You know, you have this very small I wouldn't even
call it a gospel library. When I served a mission.
It was three books that you could read aside from
aside from the Book Mormon and Doctrin and Covenants and
Pearl of Great Price and DNC and Bible. So I
think that there is this really controlling aspect. And how

(36:34):
did you feel when you started to like dig outside
of what you knew the church wanted you to look at.
I mean, here, you are this very you know, perfection
oriented person.

Speaker 3 (36:48):
How did you feel about about that?

Speaker 2 (36:51):
Well? I felt like And it was funny because I
remember talking to a girlfriend right after I started reading
this stuff, and I was just beside myself, and she's like,
I will never look at church history because I already
know that it's going to make me feel the way
that you're feeling. And I don't want Satan to influence me.
And I mean essentially said that Satan was influencing me, right,
And I already knew that that was probably going to happen,
because if you start looking at that stuff, immediately your

(37:12):
testimony starts to be shaken a little bit. And I
was like, I don't want to go here. So I mean,
I was very hesitant because I already knew kind of
the spiritual warfare that might come into play, and not
that I want to be. I want to be clear here,
I didn't think I was going to find anything wrong
with the history of the church. I just didn't know
what I was going to find. And I thought maybe
someone would convince me this wasn't a Mormon sight, so

(37:34):
maybe someone who just hates the church is going to
twist everything and make me doubt something that I know
is true. And so I was very hesitant. And the
only reason that I even looked at it is because
there was an apologist for the LDS Church and a critiquer.
So at the same time, there's a critical aspect and
there is a pro aspect for this LDS topic. Whatever
it was, whether it was the translation process, whether it's

(37:55):
a Book of Abraham, whatever it was it was, they had,
you know, the best argument for against and I was like, Okay,
this seems a little less antagonistic. And that was like
the only way I really was going to look at it.
So I'm really true. I'm actually really grateful that this
family member told me to go to this site, because
I wouldn't have done well going straight to the Cees
letter or somewhere else. It just wouldn't have worked. I
would have been like, oh, this is just anti Mormon,

(38:17):
you know, propaganda. I'm not going to read this. So
it was the fact that there were apologists for the
church on there that made that something I actually started
to really consider and take seriously.

Speaker 1 (38:29):
Yeah, I I you know, I haven't been on Mormon
think too much, but I can speak to the CES
letter as it, you know, just nuking you know, personally,
and nuked my testimony. And I don't I don't think
it was that that positive. I guess it was informative,
but I don't think it really If I guess, I'm

(38:53):
I'm taking notes on what is maybe a soft for
easier approach to this whole faith thing, because I know,
for me, the CES letter just wrecked me and my testimony.

Speaker 2 (39:07):
Yeah. Well, and for me, to be honest with you,
it led me to go, okay, well, well, first of all,
I never heard of the peepstone and that translation method.
ID never even heard of that. So I had never
heard that the first vision was presented differently for a
long time before the way that it is presented to
us now, Like these are things that I'm like, what
what are you talking about? Because we're package this pretty

(39:28):
little bow of you know, this history given to us,
and so when it doesn't, it doesn't fit anymore. Because
my entire testimony, I remember being at girls camp and
just bawling and shaking and bearing my witness. My little
sister was there, and I felt like I needed to
just make this be something that she'll never forget and
just telling her, like Joseph Smith translated it this way
and did it this way, and I know this, and
this is so good and true, and so to learn

(39:50):
this stuff was so painful. And I would click over
to the links and the Gospel topic essays which were
released when I was a BYU. I didn't know anything
about them. They weren't really publicized it all. I went
and read those and hearing it from the church's mouth
that there are translational you know, there's all these changes
to the Book of Mormon and the lack of archaeological sport,

(40:11):
all these things that I'm like, what do you mean?
Like them conceding to the points that they had to
concede to was kind of the thing that broke it all,
because you know, I have to go listen to them
because maybe they commit this all fit. I wanted to
make a fit. I have apologetic s flicks from the church.
I spent how many hours reading the Book of Mormon,
trying to make sure that you know, these these forces weren't,
you know, getting into my head and changing my testimony,

(40:32):
And so I was I was kind of going pretty
wild and nuts for a while. I was, I was scared,
I was confused, and so I'd read to my husband.
He was traveling at this point for months, so I
just read to him on the phone all the things
on Mormon, think the Gospel, topic essays, and we go
through over and over and over again, and I just
felt like it was a completely different church that I
was seeing when all was said and done.

Speaker 1 (40:51):
That's really cool that you and your husband were able
to have this open dialogue about what you were going through.
I know a lot of people do it alone, and
you know, we see divorces, we see families split up,
we see kids do different things than their parents, and

(41:12):
I just I think that that speaks a lot about
your husband that you and him were able to kind
of work through that. What would you say made that
possible for you too, to be able to like actually
have this this dialogue, Because I think that's really unique.

Speaker 3 (41:34):
And cool that you guys were able to do that.

Speaker 2 (41:37):
Yeah, So honestly, kaid of the more that I have
been around the block now, the more I realize how
unique it is, which is heartbreaking, by the way, because
I have been around so many instances now where that
is not the case, and that the church becomes a
wedge between two spouses and it gets so complicated so fast.
And I get it. I get why it does because

(42:00):
one person is like, what do you mean, Like you're questioning,
like this is what I got married to you for
this reason? You you you know, like of course you
love them, but like you're a priest holder. I need
you to be the priest holder in my family, you know, like,
and so I get that. But for me, I don't
really know what it was. I mean, my husband and
I I'm just very blessed, like I told you, like
I found the guy, like we tell each other everything.
And I think because the way that I called him

(42:22):
and I was just obviously very emotional, was like I
wasn't trying to attack his faith. I was I was
being vulnerable with him where we could explore that together,
where it was like a group effort and it wasn't like, hey,
I need to I'm going I'm bitter and so I'm
gonna bring you down or whatever it was. It didn't
feel like that. It was just like, hey, like, let's
do this together, and I'm going to read to you
and and aj at times because I mean, he's such

(42:43):
a strong you know, he was. He was the Nephi,
you know, he's just he's so strong. And I remember
like we would go through the same thing a hundred
times because I would be like, honey, like this is
what it is, and he'd be like, I just don't
believe that, you know, So we'd have to go through it.
But he was willing to see it or what it was.
And I think we had to decide do we want
to try to make this work or are we just

(43:05):
going to see it for what it is? And taking
those blinders off is the most terrifying thing you could
ever do, you know.

Speaker 1 (43:12):
Yeah, yeah, I mean I wouldn't wish a faith crisis
on anyone.

Speaker 3 (43:17):
It's a terrible, terrible way.

Speaker 1 (43:19):
I just think that that is like really a blessing
from God that you were able to do it with
your husband and have, you know, go through it, because
that that is just.

Speaker 3 (43:35):
Even for me.

Speaker 1 (43:35):
My wife was a convert and you know, was very
pemo very you know, she went every week and she
just watched me just crumble and she's like, well, I
was never really that into it, you know. So we
were able to kind of work through that. But to

(43:56):
have two people who are really going through the faith
crisis at the.

Speaker 3 (44:00):
Same time, Yeah, and you.

Speaker 1 (44:03):
Know, having that, would you say that that like strengthened
your relationship? Would you say that it or was it
always just humming and great? What would you like? What
would you say that like? And maybe your husband's still
in the church, maybe we don't need to Maybe.

Speaker 2 (44:21):
No, no, he's not. We just got baptized in August
actually together and as as Christians, so we're very much
on the same page with everything. And you're right, I'm
so thankful to God every day. But I mean, I
think that our marriage was already very strong, but it
did bring us even closer, which is so strange because
you hear that everything usually is just so much worse

(44:41):
after you leave, and I'm not gonna be I mean,
I was bad, it was terrible, but having him was
like the only way through. So I don't know how
people do it alone. To be honest with you. I
don't know if I could have done it alone. So yeah,
us basically looking to each other even more made it even.
We even had a stronger marriage through that, for sure.

Speaker 1 (45:00):
Wow, that's that's really cool. I think that's that's a
really I think that's great.

Speaker 3 (45:07):
Like I've.

Speaker 1 (45:09):
I was talking with one of my one of my
buddies who left the church. She never became Christian, ever
went to any other thing, and he was telling me
about how he lost his faith and he didn't want
to tell his wife for months and months and they
just had He was like, I was so afraid that
my wife was just going to like leave me, and

(45:29):
they have kids and all these messy things. And I
just think about, like, oh, how you know how like
tormented he was by this, by this situation. Him and
his wife both left and they're still happily married, And
I think that that's awesome. But you know, we we
were able to really talk about that. So you're on
Mormon think and you're kind of reading both sides to

(45:54):
this story. Was there was there one specific thing that
made you think like, oh my gosh, this is not
what I thought it was.

Speaker 2 (46:05):
Well, yeah, yeah, Well the translation issue first got me
more than anything else. I would say the top three's
Book of Abraham, the translation issues, and then the first vision.
So those three are were like I couldn't and I
tried to put the genie back in the bottle, Like
do you how much easier it would have been to
be like never mind, you know, like this is we'll
make it work. And this is what's really frustrating is

(46:27):
I feel like some of the some of the reactions
I got was like, why can't you make this work?
Like why can't you make this work? And it's kind
of like, well, because I there this, this can't work,
like it won't work, and so it's like, but you're
not being loyal, you know, like why are you elevating?
So I almost felt like there was a struggle between
loyalty and truth and it was like which one are
you going to pick? Because you have to be loyal

(46:48):
and make it work, and if you decide that it's
this paradigm, if you decide it's true first, then you
can make it work. But if you're going from the
perspective of, well, let's look at everything first before we
figure out what's true, you know, like you're not being
loyal because the church has to be true first, and
so I just couldn't operate that way. I didn't find
that to be intellectually consistent, and so I just I
couldn't do that. But my husband, you know, he actually

(47:08):
was like, oh, I'm going to keep believing in a God,
and I was like, I don't know if I can.
So I actually went like lower than him where I
was like, I remember looking out the window and I
saw my neighbor outside. She's a wonderful woman. And I,
at that point, after leaving Mormonism, funny enough, was so
obsessed with doing charity because it was like, okay, well

(47:29):
I'm not paying tithing anymore, so I have to start
paying organizations and I have to start doing things to
be a good person outside of the church. I didn't
know how to reframe my morality. So I would start
giving to shelters and like I would have people in
community drop off diapers and I do diaper dumps to
different places. And so I was kind of like working
myself to death because I was like, I have to
be a good person somehow. I didn't really understand, you know,

(47:50):
didn't I didn't know if there was a god and
if there was like, does he care like what I do?
And so I remember looking at my neighbor outside and
I was like, she just goes to work and comes
home and you know, she's living her life. And I
was like, and I'm doing so much more than her.
And I was like, this is why Christianity could never
be true, because like in Christianity it's just heaven or help.
And I was like, I'm clearly doing more than her,
so like I should. This doesn't make sense that it's

(48:12):
one or the other. There has to be levels to this.
And so I just thought Christianity for sure. I mean
I already didn't believe the Bible was trustworthy. I already,
you know, I didn't believe that Jesus was who he
said he was, So I didn't believe in him. I
didn't wasn't really interested in learning a lot about Christianity
at all. I thought I already knew it. And that's
what's so funny, kay, is there's this weird like double
thing that's going on in your head when you're Mormon,

(48:33):
because on one sense, you're like, Okay, Christians are just
doing algebra, and we're doing like complex fractions over here, right,
Like we're doing way more. We've got extra biblical sources,
we have a prophet, we've got temples and covenants and
all the things and the authority. But then on the
other hand, I also looked at Christians and I was like,
you're wrong on your theology, you're wrong in the nature
of God, you're wrong in your doctor and you teach
doctrines of men. You know, you're abominable on the side

(48:56):
of the Lord as part of the first vision. So
it's like we were holding I was holding those view simultaneously,
which is kind of it doesn't make sense if you
really think about it. It's either we're just doing more,
we're more correct, or the whole foundation is rotten of
Christianity and we need to start over. And I actually
held both of those beliefs at the same time, and
I didn't even really allow myself to be introspective enough
to recognize that. But anyway, so I basically was like,

(49:17):
Christianity for sure is out. Like that was not on
the table for me. AJ was like, I'll believe in
a God, but I'm never ever gonna go to church again.
And I'm like, okay, but what do we do with
our kids? Like I was so grateful that our kids
were so young, because I mean, my oldest still remembers
the LDS Church. But it wasn't it wasn't difficult in
that respect. I don't have teenagers like some of the
people going through this right now that I know personally,

(49:37):
the teenagers, I'm like, oh my gosh, I just it's
so hard. And for me, I just felt like they
were so young that I could still figure my crap
out and then you know, we can figure we can
get to the next stage together as a as a
cohesive unit in a more seamless manner.

Speaker 1 (49:52):
So yeah, so you have this, you have this time
where you're kind of in the middle, and I I
think that this will resonate with a lot of people
where you are physically out of the church, but you're
mentally in and you still have a lot of Mormon
theology in your brain. At least for me, I guess

(50:13):
I shouldn't speak for you, Brandy, but for me, you
still have that, like you say, diminishing the Bible, Like
we believe that, uh this, so this is one of
the articles of faith, right. We believe the Book Mormon
to be the Word of God, and we also believe
the Bible to be the word of God as far
as it is translated correctly, right, Like that's our that's
the Mormon get out of jail free card on diminishing

(50:36):
the Bible. And so you kind of still have these
and you know, like you said in the first vision,
you believe that Christianity was an abomination.

Speaker 3 (50:47):
Huh.

Speaker 1 (50:47):
I wonder what put that in your mind? Yeah, weird,
that's weird. That sounds like it's right out of Joseph
Smith's history. So you have these, you have these elements
that you and I did the same thing. I was like,
oh my gosh, Like I would never go to a
church because that pastor is getting paid money.

Speaker 3 (51:09):
I know that.

Speaker 2 (51:12):
We don't do that.

Speaker 1 (51:13):
Yeah, yeah, Priest Craft right, King Benjamin's discourse right in Messiah.
So like we have all of these built in criticisms
to Christianity.

Speaker 3 (51:25):
Yes, and I I.

Speaker 1 (51:29):
Would I would ask anyone to think about if if
those Mormon, ex Mormon, Christian, non Christian are those is
that healthy for a religion that is supposedly the Church
of Jesus Christ of Latter day Saints. Is it healthy
to cut down Christianity in your theology? Is that healthy?

Speaker 3 (51:55):
Sorry?

Speaker 1 (51:55):
Brandy to stick that right into the middle of your story,
but please take the floor. I just think it's crazy.
I think that that is. I won't go I won't
go much further. I just I just it bothers me
now knowing like knowing Jesus in a different way and

(52:15):
having it presented in such a poor way in the
Mormon Church that makes it so hard for people to
be like, well, I guess I'm going to try out this,
you know, Pentecostal church down the road right, No one's
doing that. They're all saying because they've had these seeds
of doubt planted in them. I think it's sad for
me and my family. I think it's sad for you

(52:37):
and your family that you have that that you know
inside of you, that it's kind of that Mormon wiring.

Speaker 2 (52:43):
Yeah, which again though I also think at the same time,
there is this weird double thought though, because you're like,
but at the same time, I already tried Christianity, like
I wouldn't consider it because I thought I understood it.
Does that make sense? Like I thought I knew what
the who the Christian God was and what the Gospel
of Christianity was, and so later learning who the Christian

(53:04):
God is and learning the Christian Gospel, it was like
a light bulb goes off in your head. You're like,
I've never heard this before, which is so strange, like
you just couldn't hear it. But but I thought that
I was rejecting something I was aware of. I thought.
I was like, I'm never trying that again, Like I
already tried the Jesus thing. It didn't work. He's not real,
Like I just I will say I would say that,
I would say it. So it was like I didn't.

(53:27):
But it was really interesting because I started to and
this is kind of getting into the next section, but
I was working for a client when night on the TV.
Excuse me, I was working for a client and watching TV,
and there was a little teas that popped up from
this book called is Atheism Dead? And I was still
very much like is atheism dead? Or is it alive
and thriving? In my head like I didn't really know,
you know, where I was, And so I ordered it
right away and it was totally God because I got

(53:50):
it and right away, not only did it talk about
how it just makes so much sense to believe in
a god from intelligent design and absolute morality and all
of these things. It was also it talked about the
archaeological support for the Old Testament, and it kind of
blew my mind to learn about all that we can
corroborate from the Old Testament, and I was like, I

(54:10):
started to see it differently. It was kind of like, oh,
I'm just going to look at this as like a
historical document. Like that's how I'm going to look at it.
And that's kind of what started the seeds where I
started listening to Dennis Praeger a lot, and he's Jewish
and he wrote a series called the Rational Bible Series,
and so I ordered Genesis and it was insane, how
crazy at that time to think of a single God

(54:31):
who was ethical and was for all people of all times,
not just per culture and you know, not just one
of many pagan gods that mixed in with humanity. It
was so unique. And to learn more about the culture
of when the Old Testament was birthed, I was like,
this is rocking my brain. So I started to really
start to consider the Old Testament to be revelation that like,

(54:52):
this is who God is. Because I kept thinking of
God in a very general sense, and I almost pride
in myself on being like open minded, you know, like
I'm just going to be person and like we can
never know more than that, Like we can't know who
God is, so like why even try? And if you
try to tell me it's a Christian God, then you're
being closed minded. And so I just wanted to be
very liberal to my approach of all that. So I

(55:13):
really started to be like, oh, I think that this
is really special revelation. This is God interacting with humanity
and telling us who he is. And so that was
a huge deal for me to wrap my head around
the Old Testament.

Speaker 1 (55:26):
Huh, Yeah, I think that that's that's a really good
way to look at it. As far as would you
say you were still viewing it through a Mormon lens
or was it a clean slate and like a fresh
take on belief.

Speaker 2 (55:46):
That is such a good question if I were to like,
I feel like it's both, because I was still projecting
the Mormon God in some aspects, but I was trying
so hard to be like, God, who are you? You
tell me, I'm not going to project anything on you.
And I think there was only one way I could
really comprehend it at that time, but I was confused

(56:07):
because there was only one God, like that's what the
Old Testament was saying. I was like, okay, is that
just one God for us? But then like Jesus, like
you know, I didn't, you know what I mean, But
the Old Testament's talking about a savior, and like Isaiah Malachie,
we're I'm reading all this stuff and you're seeing this
very weird book. And so I was like, maybe I

(56:27):
should just look at the Old Testament. I never heard
words like manuscript authority or like you know, looking at
it in a way. And you and I kind of
talked about this before, but for me it really mattered
because for us it was like, well, there's just a
gold book that just basically popped out of the sky,
well unearthed and then you know, was given to the angels,
and so we don't really know like what was on
the original, but we have to trust this one single source.

(56:48):
And that's not how it works in the translation process
for the New Testament. It just wasn't. And so learning
like we have the ability to really see through textual
criticism what the originals had, and you can see that
there wasn't a huge change in the Gospel and what
it says about who God is, like I felt like,
oh my gosh, I need to start taking this seriously.
And it mattered to me the manuscript authority and seeing

(57:11):
that line really mattered. And so I started reading the
New Testament. And what was hard was Jesus for me personally,
I'm gonna be honest with you, it was like I
had this aversion to him because I was hurt and
I didn't want to consider him again because I felt
like I knew him and I felt like I walked

(57:32):
with him, and now I can see that I really
was walking with him. I had, I like to liken
it to like a circus mirror where I was looking
at him and he kind of had disfigured, you know, attributes,
and he wasn't clearly who he is to me now,
but I know that he was always with me. It's
just I couldn't really, I couldn't fully give myself to
him and have a full relationship with him yet because

(57:54):
I didn't know him the way that he is. So
when I started researching the Resurrection, and I kind of
again looked at a very purely historical lens and I
was just like I told my brother we were going
to a soccer game one time, and I was like, dude,
I would stake my life basically that this happened. And he,
you know, most of my siblings, all of them actually
left Failure's church. And so he was like what, like,

(58:16):
you know, what do you mean? Like he didn't even
know I was going through this process. I kept it
very kind of personal at the beginning, and I'm like,
you need to look into the resurrection. I fat books
on the you know, for the resurrection, refutations, all the things.
I was a mad woman going and saying reading all
this stuff podcasts all day. And so I got to
the point where I was like, Jesus rose from the dead,
and if he rose from the dead, then he is God.

(58:36):
And if he is God, I should probably read the
New Testament again and instead of looking at it like historically,
look at it theologically. What is he saying, you know,
like who is he and what is he teaching? So
like it was just a shift, and I bought like
a couple of different Bibles because I was like, well,
I don't I kind of put my quad away, you know,
I was like, I don't don't want to use this anymore.
It was so strange, you know.

Speaker 3 (58:57):
Isn't that weird?

Speaker 1 (58:58):
Okay, I do want to talk to you about Bible shopping. Yes,
that is the weirdest thing as a Mormon. This is
so funny that you bring this up because I have
not had this conversation with anyone else. You have, no,
I mean, there's like twelve billion translations. Yes, somebody's going

(59:18):
to drop in the comments and say, no, there aren't.
There's actually twelve hundred or something, but there are whatever,
it doesn't matter.

Speaker 3 (59:25):
There's more than twenty. That's way too many. Yes, So
what is it?

Speaker 1 (59:29):
How is it that you came to a conclusion on like,
if you're going to start reading this a new and
fresh how did you go through and and pick something
that that you felt like wuld would work for you?

Speaker 2 (59:43):
And to Amazon reviews, we're starting there. That's what I
did the first time. But this is also crazy. There.
God placed this woman in my life who is actually
getting an apologetics degree, and she I saw some kids party,
the little kids party, and she came up to me
and she had heard that I had been LDS and

(01:00:05):
she's like, do you have a really good Bible? And
I'm like I don't think so, like I just got
something from Amazon, you know, and she I just I
didn't know. It was a little bit of like like
a women's devotional, like it had flowers all over it
and just was very big print, and it was just
you know, I just I didn't know where to start.
But she was like, I need to get you this
study Bible. And it was like one hundred dollars and
she just shipped it like she didn't even mean. And

(01:00:26):
so these little people were just popping op of my life,
you know, and putting all the pieces together. And I
still have that Study Bible and I use it every day,
but that esp Study Bible is what I use now.
And that was like cause I could put things into context,
which is what I was missing for so long, is
like who is this you know, speaking to? And when
and why? And like all of that framed that for
me in my Study Bible. And now I'm going to

(01:00:48):
read the text and I'm not going to be like God,
you know, like what does this mean to me? Like
it's like, no, what is? Who is God? And what is?
And of course we can glean from that and we
can apply that to our lives. But it wasn't me
centric anymore as much as it was like, God, tell
me who in a way that I can understand it,
because King James is very hard for me to understand.

Speaker 1 (01:01:05):
Oh my gosh, I I I think of all the
times I've read cover to cover to the King James
version and never understood it, Like growing up Mormon, and
this this might be really hard for like mainstream Christian people,
never know people whatever. But like, I mean, I've read

(01:01:30):
the I've read the Bible cover to cover King James
version probably six or seven times and never.

Speaker 3 (01:01:38):
Really gotten out of it.

Speaker 1 (01:01:39):
What I got out of reading the New Testament one time.

Speaker 2 (01:01:44):
Yeah, like yeah, it's yes.

Speaker 1 (01:01:49):
And I mean, I don't know why the Church of
Jesus Christ of Latter day Saints stays with a text that,
well I do know why that no one unders stands
and no one can push back on. Maybe that's the
reason why. But I remember reading I read the CSB.
I remember reading that the first time, all the way
through and being like, what, like this goes totally in

(01:02:15):
the face of Mormon theology and Mormon doctrine. You actually
understand what it's saying.

Speaker 2 (01:02:21):
Right, Yes, yep, A text without a context is a
con ooh podcast. No, it was Felicia Meisenheimer, I think
is who said that. But yeah, I was like, I'm
grabbing that one. That one's going in my pocket.

Speaker 1 (01:02:38):
I think it was Brandy Bronson who said that. No,
that is wow, that is a really interesting say that.

Speaker 2 (01:02:49):
Again, A text without context is a con.

Speaker 3 (01:02:53):
A text without context.

Speaker 2 (01:02:56):
Obviously a generalization, right, there's always exceptions. But I just
I don't think so.

Speaker 3 (01:03:06):
I think it is.

Speaker 1 (01:03:07):
I think that is totally true. And because I think
of all my experience. I mean, I taught seminary, I
taught Old Testament seminary. I was a seminary teacher for
a year, and I remember thinking to myself, like I
know this, and then to reread it back as someone
who was just like, Lord, I am a clean slate.

(01:03:34):
I just want to believe whatever I should believe and
for it to change one hundred percent.

Speaker 2 (01:03:43):
Yes, yes, wow, text.

Speaker 3 (01:03:46):
Without context is a con Yeah. Wow.

Speaker 1 (01:03:50):
Okay, so you're reading through this text, so you're reading
through the Bible. Yeah, talk a little bit about that
about what what did you find that maybe you hadn't
discovered before or.

Speaker 2 (01:04:04):
That's a whole nother podcast. How many hours do you have.
But I think for me, honestly, the idea of hell
was really crazy because and this is actually goes back
even to my mom, because my mom when she converted
to Mormonism, one of the main selling points in doctrine
for her was that hell wasn't really on the table
save it be for like you and me, you know,
all sons of provision, but hell, but like it was,

(01:04:31):
it was so comforting of course, like why wouldn't we
want it? A gospel that says everyone's making it, even
Hitler is getting to a degree of glory, and it's
like that sounds palatable, right. So for me reading how
much Jesus talks about hell and sin and seeing like,
oh my gosh, I think that, you know, like my
sin became I was more aware of it, and I

(01:04:53):
almost felt like again when it wasn't like, well, as
long as it's not the ones that is going to
get you in the bishop's office or the ones that
are going to get you out of the temple. For me,
it was like I saw in myself, my full self.
I saw, you know, all of the things that would
have still allowed me to get in the temple. But
because I would have still been loyal to the church
and all the things. It doesn't matter if you're vain,
it doesn't matter if you're drinking way too many rock stars,

(01:05:15):
as long as it's not coffee or tea, you know,
like it's like, as long as you're doing the things,
then you're good. But it was it was like everything
was on the table all of a sudden, and I
just felt so convicted and like I heard something else.
Really what was it? It was like, you can't taste
the sweetness of grace unless you first experienced this sting
of sin something along those lines. And that's what was
happening to me, is like I couldn't even understand grace

(01:05:37):
yet because I didn't fully comprehend the need for Christ
at this level, this deep level, like this biological level,
that like I was not okay, I was not the
greatest person in the world, and that was like, you know,
I wasn't going to be a God and I wasn't.
All these things just shattered in front of me, and
I really do feel as though I was reading God

(01:05:57):
really was like I need you to know who you
are so that you know like why I was here,
you know, like why I came and I started to read. Also,
something massive in terms of theology that shifted for me
was this idea of imputation, because Mormons are not afforded
the idea, Yeah, Jesus will take your sin, He'll take
your original sin, and then he'll keep taking your sin
as so long as you continually repent and shed all

(01:06:20):
of the additional sins off of you. But you're never
given this double imputation where you know, Christ is actually
reckoning his righteousness to you and so you don't have
to get rid of your sin first. He's going to
you know, He's going to give you his righteousness so
that you, while simultaneously a sinner, can also be legally
justified in front of a holy God. And I'm reading

(01:06:40):
this and I'm going, wait this higher law where he's saying,
like I told you earlier, even if you hate in
your heart, you know, even if you've lost it, if
you've done this and that, like you've broken you've broken
one little part, you broke the whole thing, dude. And
I'm like, this is so God's not saying, so stop
up your boots and work harder. He's saying, snop, look
to me, you know, so so crazy because I saw

(01:07:00):
Jesus always being like, oh my gosh, like he came in,
he up the ante. I need to be that much
better and I need to follow the law that much
more closely. But now it was like, oh my gosh,
I'm not under the law. Reading Romans was like, oh
my gosh. You know, it was insane.

Speaker 3 (01:07:16):
Yeah, And I think that.

Speaker 1 (01:07:19):
We there is so much pressure put back on somebody
who grows up in the Church of Jesus Christ of
Latter day Saints a Mormon, right, There's so much pressure
that is put back on you to be perfect. And
we do lose context of those verses, right, Like we've

(01:07:41):
kind of talked a little bit about them. But if
you look at like Jesus' Sermon on the Mount right
where he's talking about like, if you look after a
woman lustfully, you've committed adultery, if you do all these
things right like, and what he's saying is no one
can reach that level. Like nobody can. He's not saying

(01:08:03):
reach this level. Yes, if you don't feel bad over
and over right, feeling anguish your whole life that you
didn't reach this level, and if anything bad happens to
you in your life, yeah, it's because you weren't living
this level. It's not what Jesus is saying at all.
That's a very Mormon view on the gospel.

Speaker 2 (01:08:27):
Yeah. Well, it's like I said in the book, right,
because Christianity is so unique that God knows that we
can't meet that standard. So instead of us climbing up
to him, he actually comes down to us. And that's
so so critical for the Christian and yet for the
LDS it's like, okay, God came down. Now a God
came down. Jesus came down, He died for us, but
now we too must climb up. We must climb the

(01:08:47):
wrongs to get back to God. And so it's like
this really weird mix of him coming down but also
us coming up. And I do talk about that in
my book, like Jacobs Slatter and stuff like that, but
I think that there is like you said, it's I
didn't see the law as something that I that was
supposed to condemn me. It was something I had to fulfill,
you know, I had to meet the law instead of

(01:09:08):
allowing it to condemn me, so that I look to
another source completely that I outsourced that. And what's crazy
about all this is like I had a lot of
Christian friends and I constantly talked about I was part
of this debate group. We were called the Philosopher Kings,
and this wasn't necessarily about theology. It was more about
like evolution and all things like that. But I remember
wanting to debate Christians sometimes and we talk about the Trinity,

(01:09:29):
and I did not like how much they used Jesus's name, like,
because I was like, I thought it was irreverend. I
remember coming home one day to my mom and being like, gosh,
Christians to say Jesus like a lot, and it kind
of triggered me because I was like, we'd call them
the Savior or Christ, you know, something a little bit
more reverent like that, and they would talk about Jesus
as if they were like homies, you know, and I'm like,
this is very irrever. It bothered me. And so that

(01:09:51):
and the crosses and all the things that they did,
you know, it really put me off to all of that.
And so we would have conversations, but I never was
open to listening to the gospel because I was just
really waiting for them to stop talking so that I
can tell them about the restoration, like that's awesome.

Speaker 3 (01:10:08):
How was that?

Speaker 2 (01:10:09):
You know?

Speaker 1 (01:10:11):
Yeah, and I think there's this there's this kind of
idea that's built into us that we have it all right.
I remember teaching it as a Mormon missionary in Saint Louis,
that you know, we have the whole truth and you
have just a small part of it, when really what

(01:10:33):
Christianity has is all of the truth, and that it's
just been distorted and expanded on without without God really
is what Mormonism really is. And so you you're starting
to read through this, I'm curious. I always think that

(01:10:54):
salvation is really interesting or somebody giving their life to cry,
especially when they have a little bit of jadedness to them.
I found myself in that category definitely after coming out
of the church, and it sounds like you kind of
had that same And I really want Jesus for Mormons

(01:11:17):
to reach those people who have had kind of this.
You know, they were all in in the church and
then they found out that the church was being dishonest.
And how do you how do you go to the
next phase of life, How do you go to the
next stage of life with belief? What did that look

(01:11:37):
like for you and what did you know, surrendering your
life to Jesus look like.

Speaker 2 (01:11:42):
Yeah, that is a packed question. Well, I think at
the beginning, for me, like I said, before kind of
knowing my position before God, knowing that God is the creator,
I had to know who he was. It was like
for me, this intellectual thing had to click first. And
the chapter of my book talking about knowing versus believing
in because you could know a lot about somebody and

(01:12:04):
still not be in love with them, right like they
could even I could have met Aja, he could have
checked every single box that I had, and yet we
would just by right Like that doesn't mean I just
love him because I know he's these things right, So
like I could have definitely said, God, I now know
that there's only one of you, and I know that
you're Tryune, and I know that you died for me,
But like I didn't. There's a leap that has to happen.

(01:12:27):
There has to be a spiritual relationship that is engaged
in that. And so I really I just obviously that's
all the Holy Spirit, because he gave me so much
of an interest and so much of a desire to
know God and to walk with him. And I read
Prodigal God recently by Tim Keller, and it just talks
so much about you know, the self righteous people kind

(01:12:48):
of getting you know, you have the prodigal son and
the one that goes away and does all the bad things.
But what about the one that's like Dad, I earned this,
like I did this, and that was me, Like I
was the one that was like I, I was so good.
I did all the things. I did the steps, and
I got baptized and young woman's and BYU and I
drive a minivan God, like I did all the things,
you know, And so the pride was so in the way.

(01:13:12):
And I love C. S. Lewis talks because he talks
a lot about how you know you have a woman
not making the best choices and you know, doing what
was he we called her? It was basically a sex
worker on the street, right, And she is way closer
to God than the pious Christian who's sitting in church
and feeling all self righteous and in himself. Because when
we come to God and we're high on our own stuff,

(01:13:33):
there's nothing left for him, right. We don't actually want
a relationship with him. We want to use him as
some celestial butler to make us feel feel good and
to give us what we want. It's those who are
broken and who know they are and they know that
they need him. Those are the ones that the Holy
Spirit just breaks open. And that's where I was at
is I got to the point where I was like, Okay,

(01:13:54):
so it doesn't matter what I'm doing. The law is there.
The law crushed me. And so that not only God
died for my sins, but actually feeling like the freedom
to know that I am forever His, that I don't
have to continually repent in this way of getting rid
of my own sin before I can present myself before God.

(01:14:14):
It was like I'm just who I am, Like I
can just come as I am and say God, I
need you. And I never had a relationship with God
like that before, and so I knew he was real
and I knew that he died for me. I could
not deny all of that, and now I understood why.
And so it was really it wasn't like a day.
There wasn't like this crazy moment, you know, where I
had this earth shattering experience. It was more of like
I just started to pray in this very specific way.

(01:14:37):
And also we can bry to Jesus can like it
doesn't have to be so old language. And I just
felt like everything was was I know, it's so formal
in the way that I was raised, and now it
was just like I could have a real relationship with
him and the way that I speak to God and
how vulnerable I am and how just I'm just like,
I'm not presenting myself as a worthy person. I need

(01:14:58):
you and this is who I am, and there's so
much freedom in that and it's so authentic now. And
so I just think my prayers got a little bit
more specific, and I started actually listening to worship music,
which was weird because I didn't I wasn't raised listening
to Christian music, and so kind of worshiping Jesus was
a very new thing for me. Instead of using Jesus

(01:15:18):
as a you know, you go through Jesus to pray
to heavenly Father. And I revered Jesus, I loved him,
but he wasn't my God, and now he is. And
so there was something that switched in my brain and
I just gave. I felt like I gave my life
to him, and I was just like, I just want
to be I want to be with you, I want
I want to walk this life with you, and so
he just but he did that that that wasn't me.

(01:15:40):
He gave me that desire to know him. And every
day I wake up and it's just it's all grace.
That's all it is. And grace means something different. Now,
Grace doesn't is not some type of force that can
help me obey, you know. Grace is this free gift
that while I was a sinner, that Christ sought me
out and that he died for me, and that he
saved me. And there's nothing that I need to do
before I get back to God. I don't say, okay,

(01:16:02):
well Jesus, and then I need to climb this and
I need to obey. It's just Jesus. That's it. It's
that simple.

Speaker 1 (01:16:08):
Yeah, yeah, And it's beautiful how simple it is?

Speaker 3 (01:16:13):
Right?

Speaker 1 (01:16:13):
Yes, yes, I mean it's And what that pushes you
to do. I mean when you say, Lord, I put
it all in your hands, I mean it changes your life,
like it changes the trajectory that you are are going in.
I'm curious on how on your husband's reaction to this,

(01:16:36):
how it's maybe affected your family life and your kids.
What does that look like for your close family in
the church. And when I say church, I mean the
Christian Church.

Speaker 2 (01:16:51):
Yes, yes, the corporate body of believer. So well, about
two years ago, I is when I gave my life
to Christ and I started walking with him intimately and
really just starting to read the Bible in a different way.
And my husband, he was a little bit more like
okay that, you know, going to church. It took a

(01:17:11):
little bit longer for him, but he came around and
he's like, but we're not paying tithing. I'm like, okay,
all right, you know, and I'm not getna be baptized again.
I'm like okay. So it was like, you know, and
I didn't want to either. I didn't think, you know,
I didn't want to get baptized again. I thought that
was kind of obnoxious, to be honest with you. I
was like, I'm not, like whatever. So we weren't really
planning on doing a whole lot there, but we started
church shopping and I thought, you know, it took a

(01:17:33):
while to find a biblically sound church, which is unfortunate,
but it did find where I live. I just felt
like it took a lot of different times to try
to find something that I felt like were really settled in.
But also through this process, I want to give a
shout out to Eric Johnson at Mormonism Research Ministry because
I another God thing. But I was on YouTube and
like this interview pops up with him. He's in Utah.
He now has a new research center by the way
that you can go and he goes through all the

(01:17:54):
old like Mormon history and you can like try to
lift the gold plates, and it's like a fascinating place
to go to. But I saw him on an interview
and I reached out to him and he sent me
his book, and he also bought me a Systematic Theology book,
and I emailed him and I started having questions and
then producing I was like, can I just send you
a Google doc? And he's like what, And I'm like,

(01:18:15):
I have a lot of questions. So I started just
sending him everything and he was like, this is a lot.
So we phone call. You know. He just worked with
me for so long, and that's when he bought me Systematic,
Like you need a systematic, like you're insane. So he
bought me Systematic, and so we have been friends ever since.
He brought the forward to my book. Actually it was
really sweet, but he definitely helped disciple me and kind

(01:18:36):
of rip apart this theology because even though you give
your life to Christ and you're like, okay, there's one
and there's so much, you still have to pull apart,
you know. And I love the idea of justification because,
like you were saying, like it's once you're saved, there's
this freedom to be like, you know, of course we're
still repenting. We're turning all the time back to Christ
and back to Christ and back to Christ. But what

(01:18:57):
we're not doing is our relationship isn't changing with Him
in terms of our legal standing before God. That's not
in jeopardy, that's not in question. And there's a freedom
to know that when I didn't obey the commandments that day,
God loves me just as much and he accepts me
just as much, and I'm just as saved. Like these
are things that, like you know, were so hard for
me to comprehend because I'm like, well, no, I didn't,
you know, I need to get back in his good

(01:19:19):
graces first. So but Eric discipled me and went walk
with me for a long time, and so I'm really
grateful for him, and he was really helpful in finding
a church for us. So he actually took the time
to help find a church out here. So my husband
and I tried a lot on and so finally we
found one that we loved, and then we got baptized
in it. My church. My kids love the church. We volunteered.

(01:19:40):
Now we paid tithing, which AJ said we would never do,
and we went all in. And I was so grateful
that he did that because I know that it wasn't
just about like sometimes when I was growing up, it
was like, as long as we're in the church, we're safe.
Like even my mom felt that way because I had
such a wild disposition. She's like, as long as I
have a leash on Brandy, like she'll be fine. And

(01:20:00):
and I felt like there was like this as long
as you're in the bubble. But now it's like I
don't go to church because like I have to. There's
no boxes anymore. It's just like I have this desire
to go to church and to worship the Lord and
to serve in his church and to do all those things.
And so this is a completely different motivation now. And
back to our full circle here, I'm not trying to

(01:20:20):
exalt myself. I'm not trying to like grind all day
to get somewhere. I'm just resting. I'm just resting in Jesus. Yeah,
you know.

Speaker 1 (01:20:29):
Yeah, And it's I think that's interesting to your motives change.
You know, that's the whole idea behind kind of giving
it all to God and letting that be a catalyst
for you to live your life.

Speaker 3 (01:20:46):
The right way.

Speaker 1 (01:20:47):
Yes, not I have to live my life or right
the right way so that God will accept me.

Speaker 2 (01:20:53):
Right.

Speaker 1 (01:20:54):
And I just think there is so much rest and
I think they're in that, and I think there's so
much work in the opposite of did I do enough?

Speaker 3 (01:21:06):
Am I enough? Did I parent well enough? Am I
good enough? Spouse?

Speaker 1 (01:21:10):
Am I good enough? My case? Priesthood holder? All of
those things? And it's like, that's not that's not what
the gospel is. That might be what a denomination wants
you to do. They might want you to give your
whole life and feel super guilty about not being everything

(01:21:30):
they want you to be. That's what the Mormon Church
wants you to be. But that's not what Jesus came
to do. He came to do something radically different, right.

Speaker 2 (01:21:42):
Yeah, And.

Speaker 1 (01:21:44):
So well that's good. So do your are your kids
when they transitioned from a you know, going to the
Mormon church. I guess there was a little COVID break
and then how did they kind of integrate into this
new church environment that you're in now?

Speaker 2 (01:22:03):
Well, what's funny is, yeah, with the COVID thing that happened,
and then we tried on to different churches and it
kind of got to them because it was like we
were always kind of switching around and they're kind of like,
you know, they weren't really into it, and so I
finally got in. So funny because I still tell them
almost every week when we're driving to church, I'm like, hey, guys,
does going to church make you righteous? Does it make
you a good person? They're like no. And I'm like,

(01:22:25):
are we better than any of our neighbors right now
because they're at home playing video games, are doing what
they're doing, and we're going to church. Are we better?
They're like no. And it's like we're not doing something
to earn something right where our salvation isn't justified by
our obedience, or obedience is justified by our salvation. And
we do this because we love Jesus and we want
to be under his word and under a good preacher.
And so I've had such open conversations with them about

(01:22:49):
why we go to church, and I've been so intentional
about having them form relationships within church with kids their ages,
that this has been the most beautiful experience. And you
don't see this kai when you're ld Yes, you think
no one else has this type of happiness that we have.
And it's funny because growing up, you know, most of
my friends were non members, and I saw a lot
of alcoholism, I saw a lot of divorce. I saw

(01:23:09):
all these things and I thought, well, like my I
had a fantastic family growing up. And I was like,
this is proof that the LDS gospel is true because
and I will say, LDS have beautiful they have a
beautiful culture, beautiful culture, very family oriented, and so I
think we can Christians can do a lot of learning
through that. But I thought we had a monopoly on
this type of happiness and the Mormons do not. I

(01:23:33):
have never felt so excited to go to church of
see my kids, excited to go to church and worship
with them, and to hear my kids seeing gospel songs
in praise Jesus. In this way, all the time, they'll
turn to my husband and be like, this is such
a different there's coffee in my home. I recently started drinking.
It took me almost four years, but I like, and
I did a health raise. It's funny enough. I literally

(01:23:54):
did it too, because I wanted to get rid of
some diet coke and so I'm like, I need some,
but this is healthier. So it's funny that I actually
switched out what I could drink as an LDS for
something that I couldn't and to be healthier. But anyways,
I just all the time, I'll like sit there and ruminate,
and I'll tell my husband, I'm like, can you believe
how different our kids are growing up? It just and honestly,

(01:24:16):
that was one of the cattles for the books is
because I started writing out. I told my husband. I
was like, I don't want to forget the bad things,
but the really good things too about the Eldest Church
that again I only thought existed there, And so I
was like, our kids are going to miss out on
so many beautiful parts of this Eld's gospel that I
loved and cherished for my childhood, and so I started
writing it out to the good the bad, the ugly,
all of it. I just didn't want to forget it,
and I wanted them to understand it. And I have

(01:24:38):
pictures of the temples still that I showed them, like this.
My girl, my daughter still wears my young Woman's medallion
with the thing on it, and I talked to her
about it, you know, and I tell her what the
temple is, and we talk about these things, and I'm
very respectful about it, you know, but I let her
know why mommy and Daddy don't do that anymore. And
and so I also wanted them to be a little
bit inoculated to to Mormonism, so that this was something

(01:25:02):
that I wanted them to know why I do believe
it is false, and so I wanted to talk about
that theology. But more than anything, I wanted to tell
my kids why I found Christ, how I found Christ,
and why he is the Lord of my life. And
so it was just started off as this Google doc
that evolved into this massive project because God started putting
people into my brain that was like this person should

(01:25:23):
hear this, and this person needs this book, and it
was like I should probably At this point it wasn't
a book, but I was like, I should probably make
this in new book. So I remember one night I'm
like lay next to AJ and I'm like, guess what,
I think we should make this new a book. And
he was like, you're insane, We're not doing that. And
I was like, Okay, I'll do it anyway. So I
did it anyway, and it took like a whole year,
and AJ edit it for me and he helped me

(01:25:45):
do all of the crazy stuff you have to do
to get it all ready to go to publish it.
So he basically got on board because I forced him to.
But but it was basically my kids and seeing I
was like, they'll never know. Like that was really the catalyst,
because it is so strange to tell people how different
and how peculiar it was to grow up Naildias Church.

Speaker 3 (01:26:08):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:26:08):
Yeah, and that's let's let's highlight that a little bit.
Here is a copy of Brandy's book, The Journey to
Jesus by Brandy Bronson, and you guys can check that out.
Is it it's on Amazon?

Speaker 2 (01:26:24):
Yeah? I just self published through Amazon.

Speaker 1 (01:26:26):
Self published through Amazon, and you can get it. I
I love.

Speaker 3 (01:26:32):
Brandy.

Speaker 1 (01:26:33):
I think anyone who's listened to this, they love you.
They think you are great, they think, and I'm not
love bombing Mormon style. I'm just saying, no, you just
it's it's great to see people who just have a
passion for the Lord. I mean, I think so much
our community is like when I say our community, I

(01:26:55):
mean the ex Mormon community, Okay.

Speaker 3 (01:26:58):
Like is so art yes, and.

Speaker 1 (01:27:02):
I just want there to be this light of like
it doesn't have to be that way.

Speaker 3 (01:27:08):
I mean, you can definitely choose for it to be
that way.

Speaker 1 (01:27:10):
You can choose to be like, I feel so jaded
by God and Jesus and I'm an atheist and all that,
So you can choose that. Okay, that's that's that's totally
your choice. But I think that your story is like
such a good example of like the hope that can
come from a relationship with Jesus and how that can

(01:27:35):
help your family. You talk about driving your kids to church.
I think about my kids driving church. They are so excited,
like they're so excited to go.

Speaker 2 (01:27:47):
And.

Speaker 1 (01:27:48):
I just think, like, gosh, there's so much joy. And
then you see them like sincerely wanting to seek God
on their own, and you're like, oh my gosh, this
is just such a beautiful. I talked about this on
my podcast. I remember my oldest son puking he got
a virus and puking in the middle of the night,

(01:28:11):
and I said, buddy, I'm here for you, you know,
and we're talking. He's puked like twenty times. I was like,
what can I do for you? He's crying. He says, Dad,
I just want you to pray for me.

Speaker 3 (01:28:22):
Oh oh my gosh. I know me.

Speaker 1 (01:28:26):
I know I am a big idiot most of my life,
and yet I have this beauty of like my son
just wanting, like wanting and believing for this and he
thinks that's something that will help him. And I just
find like that same, like that same beauty in your
story of like how this helps and strengthens your family

(01:28:48):
and strengthens your marriage and all of those things. And
I just think it's just like so inspiring for people.

Speaker 3 (01:28:56):
Who can do that.

Speaker 2 (01:28:57):
So back at you. And also, I'll say one last
thing to kind of talk on the hypocrisy, because I
feel like there is, like we talked a little bit
earlier about this esthetic, this keeping up this external, you know,
visual of our perfection. I feel like the barriers are
down now, even with my kids where it's like if
I lose my temper or if I sin in some way,

(01:29:20):
I feel so free to go to them and be like,
I'm so sorry you guys, and I mommy is still
parking on her sanctification process as you are, and I
need Jesus just as much as you do. And I
don't want them to ever think that, like they're going
to see me like at home, and then I'm just like, oh,
you know, trying to put on the everywhere else because
they know, they know when we're faking. You know, they

(01:29:41):
see who we are. It's like that funny thing where
you're like, y'all know your kids, but they're like, hey,
you know, like that whole thing. I feel like I'm
so free to be like, admit, and this is what's
really funny. I'm sorry, I'm like rambling, but I remember
talking to Christians and they'd be like, I'm not enough
and I need Jesus. And I thought this was like
very self deprecating rhetoric. I'm like then like, then, like,

(01:30:03):
what do you mean you're still sinning? Then stop, like
for sake your sin. That's what true repentance means. Go
look at LDAs scripture. True repentance is for the first
saking of sin. If you sin again, it all comes back.
So I'm figure it out right, And so for me
it was kind of like, what do you mean that
you're just like basking in this not enoughness? You know,
like you do it, get go on on the commandments.

(01:30:25):
And so that's the way I felt. And now I
look at the kids and I'm like, see, Mommy's trying
and I'm still not making it Like I need Jesus
and Him alone. And so I get to say that
to my kids and when they mess up, it's like,
does God still love you? Like, of course, yes, of
course he does. Are you any less loved or saved? No,
you're not. And like we just I emphasize the Gospel
so much to my home and I feel, I know

(01:30:46):
this sounds weird, but like I wouldn't take back anything.
I wouldn't take back being LDS. I won't take back
any of it. The perspective I as Christian now, I
know how sweet grace can be because I lived where
the Gospel and the Law were meshed together, and being
able to distinguish the Gospel in the law and being
able to see what the gospel really is, and that
grace is so beautiful and it tastes so much sweeter

(01:31:08):
when you have been under the law for so long.
And so for my kids, it's just like I get
to emphasize that gospel every day. Jesus is enough. We
need him, Mommy needs him, You need him. And there's
just no like, there's no barriers anymore. I don't have
to put up this this aura about myself, you know.

Speaker 1 (01:31:25):
Yeah, yeah, there is so much freedom in it. And
I Brandy, thank you for coming on and telling your story.
People should go out by your book and I think
it will impact a lot of people. And I just
really appreciate you coming on Jesus for Mormons. Hopefully I

(01:31:46):
didn't take too much time of yours, but I really
do appreciate you coming on. And if you have any
questions for Brandy, how can people reach out to you
if they have any any questions about your story?

Speaker 2 (01:32:00):
Yeah, so I created a little Instagram page about six
months ago. It's called the Journey to Jesus. But I
think there's like a it's like the and then under,
you know, the Journey of Jesus. And it's on the
back of my book too. But just look at me
and Instagram. I don't have really any other social media.
I mean, like, I have like a really weird Facebook
that's just my name with like six followers. I use
it for marketplace. That's not don't don't try to find

(01:32:21):
me on Facebook. Just just on Instagram will be good enough.
The Journey to Jesus on Instagram.

Speaker 1 (01:32:26):
All right, Well, thanks a lot for taking the time
to tell your story and I know that it will
impact people. And uh yeah, if you have any questions
for me, feel free to reach out at Jesus for
Mormons at gmail dot com. And until next time, love
you guys.

Speaker 2 (01:32:43):
Thanks Kay,

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