April 16, 2025 • 47 mins
In this episode, Annalisa interviews Brandy Bronson about her book The Journey to Jesus, where she shares her transition from the LDS Church to a personal relationship with Jesus. Raised in a devout Mormon family, Brandy struggled with doctrinal inconsistencies and left the church after discovering a deeper faith in the God of the Bible. She reflects on the emotional challenges of leaving Mormonism, including fears of losing community and identity, and emphasizes the importance of questioning beliefs and distinguishing personal spiritual experiences from theological truth. Brandy contrasts Mormonism’s legalism with Christianity’s message of grace and transformation, encouraging others in similar faith transitions to explore Biblical Christianity and trust in Jesus as Savior, focusing on salvation through grace rather than works.
Contact us:
Email: jesusformormons@gmail.com
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Website: https://jesusformormons.com/
Contact us:
Email: jesusformormons@gmail.com
Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/share/g/kxt1hS692rDMcJi8/
Website: https://jesusformormons.com/
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:01):
Welcome to this episode of Jesus for Mormons. I am
Kai Van Luvin and we are doing a book review
on Brandy Bronson's book, The Journey to Jesus. And for
this book review we have Onna, Lisa and the author
(00:23):
of the book, Brandy. I'm gonna step away from this
one and let them tell their story and so with
that on a Lisa awesome.
Speaker 2 (00:34):
Well, thanks so much guys for being here. We're gonna
have a lot of fun. Okay, So we have Brandi here.
She has been on Jesus from Mormons before and she
wrote a book and that's why we're here, and so
we're so excited. We're gonna work talk about face transitions,
about how do you wrestle the truth and really importantly,
what does it mean to find Jesus?
Speaker 3 (00:55):
So Brandy, can you go and introduce yourself?
Speaker 4 (00:58):
Oh my goodness, Well, thank you so much for having
me today.
Speaker 5 (01:00):
And I'm grateful that you read the book and then
I was invited on to talk about it, So thank
you so much. And yeah, we kind of already covered
my story on the last episode on the last podcast.
Speaker 4 (01:10):
Thanks Kai for letting me come back on.
Speaker 5 (01:13):
But I just was raising a very traditional LDIAS family
and family of six and grew up in the church
and went to Bou and got married in the temple
and served faithfully, faithfully until my exodus.
Speaker 3 (01:25):
So awesome.
Speaker 2 (01:26):
Okay, So just a couple of years. So when did
you leave the LDS Church? So you were LDS all
your life and you left at what time? And then
how how long has it been since your life leaving.
Speaker 5 (01:35):
It's been a little over four years now since I
love the LDIA in about two years since I've come
to Christ.
Speaker 2 (01:41):
Okay, awesome, And you wrote a book already, Wow, Yeah, yeah, over,
we're here. That's amazing though, That's amazing. Okay, So we're
going to dive deep into it. First couple of questions
and then we're going to go backtrack a little bit,
just because I want to touch on some important things.
So you talked to me before a little bit. Obviously
we all had testimonies in the LDS Church. One of
(02:04):
the biggest things I noticed when you wrote this book,
you wrote that you felt it in your bones that
you were confidence that you had the truth. Yeah, So
how did that emotion play into all of this and
how did that lead into writing the book?
Speaker 3 (02:18):
Yeah?
Speaker 5 (02:19):
I mean, I would say that my testimony within the
Eldist Church was very much based on the experiential and
that didn't mean that I didn't believe the doctrine.
Speaker 4 (02:27):
I did, and I thought it made sense. I thought
it offered more specificity than traditional Christianity. But I did
feel it just in my bones. I just I knew
it was true.
Speaker 5 (02:35):
I had so much peace reading the Book of Mormon,
and I really believed that we had the proper authority.
And in my book I kind of mentioned that I
had that really crazy experience when I was a preteen
and had to have surgery, life saving surgery, and we
talked a little bit about that behind the scenes. But
hearing the doctor say that I might not be able
to have children based off of just the absences that
(02:57):
were growing in my reproductive system and all the horrible
things going on in my body, that kind of broke
me because I only wanted to be a wife and
a mother. That's all I wanted, That's all I ever wanted.
So wrestling with that until it was time for my
patriarchal blessing was really really challenging for me, and it
was really heavy, and I actually remember there was a woman.
(03:19):
It is during sacrament meeting one time, she said that
she had been told by her patriarch that she was
going to have children, but that later on, when she
got married, she found out that she was infertile. And
so I remember sitting there kind of uncomfortable, and she
was like, but she had been given a witness later
on that that meant that she was going to be
having children in the next life, and that Heavenly Father
had promised for those babies for later. And that didn't
(03:42):
sit super well with me at the time because I
was like, well, I want to make sure when I
get my patriarchal blessing that the patriarch specifies in this life.
So I prayed and prayed and prayed to make sure
that when it was time for me to get my
patriarchal blessing, that he would be very articulate in that I.
Speaker 4 (03:56):
Was going to birth my own children in this life.
And he did.
Speaker 5 (03:59):
He said a very scific phrase that really put my
heart to rest and and really solidified my testimony that
we had real patriarchs who listened to God and that
God was listening to me. So yeah, I just I
had certain experiences within the Aldis Church. That really solidified
what I thought was the validity of it.
Speaker 2 (04:18):
Yeah, that's that's I mean, what you explained right there.
It's very similar to a lot of experiences that people
have throughout their lives and and I kind of find
it interesting just to touch on a little bit. But
first off, it's one of the biggest things that lds
woman to want to be a mother.
Speaker 3 (04:34):
You're like, if you're if you don't have that desire,
then you.
Speaker 2 (04:37):
Pray for that desire, yes, because if you don't.
Speaker 3 (04:40):
Have it, there's something wrong with you.
Speaker 2 (04:41):
You obviously that's your number one role in this life
is to become a mother and a mother and Zion,
if you want to put it that way, and many
of the patriarchal Wessons did put it, and so.
Speaker 3 (04:52):
I can only imagine how that felt.
Speaker 2 (04:54):
Especially it kind of reminds me a little bit about
kind of what's similar how Joseph Smith in that whole,
Like he had that surgery and then he could walk
and you know kind of and all those things. And
so I find it so interesting but also very key
that you still are trying to figure it out. You're
trying to you're trying to make sense of it all,
and do you find that something that's more LDS like
(05:16):
or is it more Christian? Would you say that's more
leaning towards one and the other.
Speaker 5 (05:21):
I think everyone uses the experiential, and I don't think
that we should necessarily say that because we experience something
that it can't lead to truth or isn't a form
of understanding truth. I think the hard part is for
Mormons and Christians and people of faith in general, is
slapping on experiences onto their theology and saying because I
experienced this, therefore my belief system and my worldview is accurate.
(05:42):
So I do believe that God is a personal God
and that he greaches us where we are. But I
think a lot of the times the way that we
translate that as human beings can be very incorrect.
Speaker 3 (05:52):
That's that's perfect. I kind have put it better. That's awesome.
Speaker 2 (05:54):
I think that's a great way to show the different
and also to make sure that we don't convolute God's.
Speaker 3 (06:01):
Will, right, we don't convolute to to what we want it.
So there's this. As you're reading your book, Okay, I
gotta say, guys, I love her book. I have been
telling everybody about it and I am like the number
one fan.
Speaker 2 (06:14):
I took that badge.
Speaker 3 (06:15):
I take that badge of number one fan.
Speaker 2 (06:17):
I've told everybody and their uncles and their brothers and everybody,
and I told everyone because it's just such a relatable book.
And I'm just I'm being completely honest. It's a relatable book.
You're very honest in it, very approachable as you are
right now, and I think that sneaks through your book,
and I think that it's very unique. I say, I
would say, I would say it's unique in general, but
I would say it's unique to the Mormon women, more
(06:41):
Mormon woman lifestyle. That's yours honesty and your your just
your canid demeanor is very apparent. So one of the
things that I loved about your book, one of my
favorite parts was when you were at graduation.
Speaker 3 (06:56):
And you basically.
Speaker 2 (06:59):
Gave out book Mormon Too. And I can only imagine,
I just I just know it. You're like getting so
excited and so ready for graduation and writing these down
and praying and making sure. I just I just see,
like an eighteen year old Brandy write these beautiful like
letters out to people, and you give it away to
your most closest friends, and teachers, and so this is
(07:19):
a photo of that, and I just want to share that.
Speaker 3 (07:24):
I think it's like, what was driving that?
Speaker 2 (07:25):
Like, I mean, obviously we as LDS people, we want
to preach the Gospel to everybody, but that was an
extra step.
Speaker 3 (07:32):
I would say.
Speaker 2 (07:33):
That's a very unique and a very and just a
passion driven personality.
Speaker 3 (07:38):
So what drove that?
Speaker 4 (07:40):
Oh totally, Yes. I had so much zeal for my testimony.
Speaker 5 (07:44):
I was one hundred percent sure in my position and
my worldview, and I just really felt as though, now
that my best friends and my teachers and people i'd
been with for so many years where we were, you know,
going on different paths, that hopefully there'd be a time
where they would come to dust off that Book of
Mormon that the Weird Chick gave them a graduation, and
(08:06):
they were in a point of life where I really
did feel as each one of them would open it
up and they'd be like, oh yeah, and they'd look
through it and the highlighted parts that I put in there,
and the testimony that I had written on the front
of it, and I was sure that they would be
compelled at some point in their life to accept the
Gospel so yeah, I took it upon myself. I went
to the word clerk and I was like, hey, get
me as many of these blue books as you can.
I'm gonna get as many as I can out before
(08:27):
I head off to BYU.
Speaker 4 (08:29):
And I just it's because I think that was a
form and it still is.
Speaker 5 (08:32):
Spreading the Gospel for me is the highest form of love,
and when you're in the Restored Gospel, you think that
presenting the Restored Gospel is the highest form of love.
So it's I don't think it's antagonistic to want to
share your faith with people and ask them to reconsider
their world views. Because when you believe you of the
truth and you believe that, you know you want don't
you want eternal families? Don't you want exaltation? Like these
(08:52):
things can be yours. I just I wanted them to
take it seriously.
Speaker 2 (08:56):
Yeah, I find that it's like you know what you
said right there, It's like you it's the highest form
of love, so true, so true, And so I think
it's interesting though it's it's I would say, uh, we
can get to theology, but it's it's Mormonism does teach
that you have so many chances and so what I
guess like the driven, the drive is is just to
(09:17):
be unique and go out there and actually do it.
So I always like to say Mormons ALBS Church created
its own, it's own little army with itself because we
are so vocals as we are right now talking about
this on you know, Wednesday afternoon. Yes, and you know
that's just that's just I guess you could say, like
it's it's kind of like too bad. I mean, we
(09:40):
took the tools and we're using it to our benefit
to help further God's kingdom of the biblical Jesus, Right,
And so I do want to talk on some pretty
big questions you touch not only like it's just a
very relatable book. So you guys get the book because
it is so relatable, but it's super funny.
Speaker 3 (09:55):
I laughed out loud, like it's funny, and so I'm.
Speaker 2 (09:59):
One of the the interesting part about it is that
you combined the humor with very serious questions, very very
big theological questions, and you touched on it. You didn't
just we went into it deep enough to get us like, hey,
this is a starting.
Speaker 3 (10:12):
Point and where do we go from there? And I
just love that.
Speaker 2 (10:15):
So there's some big questions. You discovered some inconsistencies, right,
some inconsistencies as you found as you were on your
faith transition, like the two different accounts of the Book
Mormon and how they were translated. You said something very interesting,
and I think it's my first quote that it pulls up.
So this is a this is very this is what
we are being taught Joseph Smith and his amazing spectacles.
(10:38):
And I mean that warm lamp glow everything about it.
It just seems warm and fuzzy. Am I right? Is
this what we were taught? Oh?
Speaker 4 (10:46):
One hundred percent, this is exactly what we were taught.
Speaker 5 (10:49):
It was this idea that you know, Joseph Smith had
these gold plates in front of him and that he
was translating line uponline, and that translation process was all
that I was aware of for until I left, until
I realized what the truth was.
Speaker 2 (11:03):
Yeah, and that's and this is what this coke. I mean,
I just love this quote. It says I would have
I would have believed the church regardless of how they
told me things went down. They she came down to this,
why are there ever two different translation processes?
Speaker 3 (11:16):
And why wasn't I taught the true process.
Speaker 2 (11:18):
I mean, it's it's a valid question. And I find
that if they're honest with themselves, if people who are
questioning the Church are honest with this with this question,
why were we not told the true process?
Speaker 3 (11:29):
Which is, you know, what's the true process? Brandnie?
Speaker 2 (11:33):
How about you just gave me the spoilin what is
the true process?
Speaker 5 (11:36):
Well, when I learned that Justice Smith never needed the
gold plates plates at all, right, so he.
Speaker 4 (11:40):
Actually used to keep stone in a hat.
Speaker 5 (11:42):
And when I when I thought about that, I thought, well,
again I would have trusted the Church had they come
out originally and said so.
Speaker 4 (11:47):
The problem was is that now we have.
Speaker 5 (11:49):
Two conflicting ideas of how this translation process went down,
and the second, more accurate portrayal of the translation process
involved no plates at all. So when you hear stories
about him, you know, carrying these plates and running with them,
and and people their persecution through the plates to go,
what is the point of that? What is the point
of inscribing this on gold plates at all? What was
the point of any of this? So it didn't make
sense to me. And I also saw the fact that
(12:10):
it wasn't even being taught at all until really recently,
and the narrative changed led me to believe that things were
buried instead of being transparent, and so it showed a
deeper rot in the church. Then I who was allowing
myself to see previously. So I think that was what
it came down to for me, was that the gold
plates weren't even necessary. I mean there was a time
in Joseph Smith wasn't allowed to translate right because he
had made mistakes, and the gold plates were removed from
(12:31):
him for a time. And it's like, well, if he
was just using the hat in the stone, then why
would that have mattered. So there's so many holes now
in that narrative of the translation process. And that was
just one of many issues. There wasn't just one. If
it was just that one, maybe I could have wiggled.
Speaker 4 (12:45):
My way out of it. But it was that there
was an overwhelming amount of evidence stacking up against the
narratives that I was taught growing up.
Speaker 2 (12:53):
Yeah, yeah, I love how you just said right there,
It's like I could have.
Speaker 3 (12:56):
Maybe wiggled my way.
Speaker 2 (12:58):
Isn't that something you typically do when it's uncomfortable to
see something that was obviously not told to us?
Speaker 3 (13:06):
And then we're trying to justify it.
Speaker 2 (13:09):
So like that goes into my next question, right, So
it's kind of very interesting to think about. So at
some point you had to ask yourself, like it is
it worth it? Is it worth it to keep going?
Is it worth it to relearn anything new? Is it
worth it? And I know your your book touches on
your process of leaving, and I love how you kind
of walk through those processes. So guys, pick it up.
(13:31):
If I didn't say it again, if I can haven't
read it, but can I ask you was it worth it?
And and can you make sense to somebody with the
answer why it's worth it or why it's not worth it?
Speaker 3 (13:43):
Obviously? Right?
Speaker 5 (13:44):
Yeah, absolutely, And I think that's what it comes down
to a lot of the times, is is it worth
it to leave the church? When the church tells you
it's them or nothing? So if it's this is the
church of you know, I actually posted this week on
my Instagram page, which is where will you go?
Speaker 4 (13:56):
What will you do?
Speaker 5 (13:57):
These questions of there's nothing for you anywhere else, there's
no way to know truth?
Speaker 4 (14:01):
And so that's what's really scary.
Speaker 5 (14:03):
About leaving is going, Well, there's no other way to
know any sort of truth, and so I might as
well stay. And yes, I don't believe the truth claims
are accurate anymore, but I know the community. It's the
devil I know. And so at the beginning those conversations
did happen with my husband where we were like, well,
we still thought of church as kind of the avenue
for moral development, and I wanted my.
Speaker 4 (14:23):
Kids to have a community. They wanted them to have purpose.
Speaker 5 (14:26):
I mentioned in my book about Dennis Praeger when he
talks about how the belief in God is just as
important as the existence of God, and I believe that
he's onto something when he says that the existence of God.
Obviously I believe in the existence of God, but living
out a life of faith does so much for us
mentally and psychologically. And I wanted my children to have
that meeting and purpose that I don't feel like postmodern
(14:46):
and secularism offers. And so I was like, well, we
might fake it till we make it, and we can
keep going to the LDS Church. And so that was
on the table for a while, and it for me,
I felt like, and this is what really.
Speaker 4 (14:58):
It came down to. I knew that there was absolute truth.
Speaker 5 (15:01):
I knew that, regardless of whether you thought and on
a Lisa that purple unicorns dropped us from the sky
or we started from nothing and restart us. And no
matter what we believe, there's something that really happened. There's
really an absolute truth out there, regardless of our our
lowercase tea truths.
Speaker 1 (15:17):
Right.
Speaker 4 (15:18):
I just didn't know if I could find that anymore.
Speaker 5 (15:19):
So I think that's what's really hard for lds leaving
is their epistemologies in question.
Speaker 4 (15:23):
They're like, how do we know what we know? And
how can we find truth?
Speaker 5 (15:26):
Because so far we had revelation written down, as well
as a living oracle, a prophet who could tell us
what the truth was.
Speaker 4 (15:33):
And when that is shattered for you, you go, well.
Speaker 5 (15:36):
I guess I'm going to find the truth within because
there's nowhere else to find it, and even then I'll
just have my truth. And so I saw that to
be problematic, but I didn't really know a way around it.
Speaker 4 (15:45):
So I thought, we'll just keep going to the Mormon Church.
Speaker 5 (15:47):
And it wasn't until really understanding the God of the
Bible and meeting him did I realize that I couldn't
afford to bring them to the LD's church anymore.
Speaker 2 (15:56):
That's I mean, there's so much to be said what
you just said right now, But I think think the
biggest thing I think about when you're talking about all this,
I mean the fact that you're walking through these questions
and you're thinking about them right as you're walking through them.
How often did you have time to do that as
an lbs person? And let's be honest, how busy were you?
And I feel like, not just because of the church,
(16:18):
but also because of just life in general.
Speaker 3 (16:21):
Kids, you know, work, things like that and.
Speaker 2 (16:24):
That are just kind of pushing us to this. So
I mean, I think it's amazing that you walk through it,
and you're walking through it with this in this book,
and I think that people are encouraged when they hear it.
But it's definitely a question, I think someone and that
reminds you of the scripture. Every need will bow right,
And so at some point in life, we're going to
come to that point where we're just like, Lord, what
is the truth? Or pray to We don't even might
(16:46):
not even pray to Jesus at that moment, but like
we're going to come to a moment where like, what
is truth and how can I find it objectively? Regardless
of how I feel about the truth or whatever, it's
going to be an objective truth. So I think that's
great that you're putting that into perspective. And I think
also it's also a timing issue, right, and we only
know what the Lord is and has and has through everybody,
(17:08):
but very.
Speaker 3 (17:10):
Deep questions, very deep questions for sure.
Speaker 5 (17:13):
No, And I think your point is so well taken
because when you're LDS, I actually loved that.
Speaker 4 (17:17):
I didn't have to struggle with the big questions.
Speaker 5 (17:19):
Everything had been figured out for me in this nice,
little pretty box, so I didn't worry about what is
the purpose of life?
Speaker 2 (17:24):
And who am I?
Speaker 5 (17:25):
And where am I going? And who's my creator. It's
painful to start over. It's scary, and it is so uncomfortable.
And the amount, and this is what it comes down to,
is you have to pick, like, am I going to
choose the LDS Church and all the peace and the
security that that provides, or am I going to venture
off into this scary abyss where I'm just broken and
I don't have any source of truth. And that's very scary,
(17:47):
and I think most people will go never mind, I'm
going back that way, and we see it all the time,
and I was I was kind of willing to do that.
I mean, again, I didn't believe the truth claims anymore,
but I thought maybe we could just stick with the
community and I could find.
Speaker 4 (18:00):
Value in that.
Speaker 5 (18:00):
But yeah, I think that having the time and energy
to really think through how do we know what we know?
Speaker 1 (18:05):
What is truth?
Speaker 4 (18:06):
Who am I? All those big questions, It's it's very
scary to.
Speaker 5 (18:10):
Be that open and vulnerable to that, especially coming from
an eldest background where everything is just so secure and
specific and has been founded into you since day one.
So yeah, I actually loved that. I never had to
struggle with an identity before. I saw that happening to
my friends in high school, and I was like, just
wait until you're Mormon, and then it'll all be figured
out for you. You can just you know, it's very peaceful,
and they've got all these pretty answers on a plate.
(18:32):
But and then I ended up having a faith crisis,
an identity crisis, and they were already figuring themselves out,
you know.
Speaker 4 (18:37):
So I was just behind the game. But and it
was humbling.
Speaker 5 (18:40):
It was very humbling because I was so prideful and
sure of myself. So there was a lot of humility
in saying I don't know like anything anymore.
Speaker 3 (18:49):
And that said, we go, you go. It's just so
much detail what you did there right now.
Speaker 2 (18:53):
But it just touches on such deep things about you know,
things that in the church that we don't realize that
are somewhat prideful, that we take for like, oh we know,
we know, and it takes us a certain amount of humbleness.
I think that life sometimes smacks this in the face.
And we'll talk about smacking this laughing in a couple
of minutes, but let's just talk about now that we
(19:15):
talked a little bit about this. The reason why I
want to focus on this question in the middle of
the interview. Okay, it's really like, who did you write
this for?
Speaker 3 (19:22):
I mean, who did you picture? Right?
Speaker 2 (19:25):
Did you picture me, I only say, in the middle
of Metida and Katzne reading your book and just being
like this is amazing.
Speaker 3 (19:31):
Or did you picture some random person at a bus stop?
Speaker 2 (19:34):
Like?
Speaker 3 (19:34):
Who did you picture this for?
Speaker 5 (19:36):
Okay, Well, first, I kind of started writing this because
I wanted my kids to have a sense of what
it was like to grow up LDS. We are such
a peculiar people, and back in the day when I
was being raised, we were less worldly than I feel
like a lot of LDS are now a lot more
influenced by culture.
Speaker 4 (19:53):
But back in the day, we were very peculiar and
we liked it that way.
Speaker 5 (19:56):
And so there were so many things I loved about
being peculiar, and some of the things, obviously I could,
you know, leave, but some of the things I wanted
to keep. So I wanted to write it all down
and just really ruminate on my upbringing. And through that process,
I also started saying, well, I'm gonna write down why
I left then, and why it's important that I left,
and why it truth matters, and what truth I feel
(20:17):
like I've found here, And so I wanted to write
my testimony. I wanted to write it all down for
my kids. Really was a Google doc that kind of transformed.
And a huge catalyst for this was that one of
my best friends in high school excuse me, in Utah
from college after college, and I love her to death,
and she was going through a little bit of a
faith crisis as well. And I did something that I
(20:37):
wish I could take back, which is I just started
barfing at her all the things that I was learning,
and she wasn't ready for it, and so it did
a detriment to our friendship because I didn't understand that
not everybody was where I was at. You know what
I'm trying to say, I'm like, everybody who here's what
I hear is going to feel the way that I feel.
Speaker 4 (20:55):
About it, and that's not true.
Speaker 5 (20:56):
So I just started going at her really hard, and
she was ready for it, and so I started just
backing off a little bit. And so then I started
shipping her books like Mere Christianity and all these kind
of more apologetics books also just for the belief in
God and all these things. And I was just trying
really hard to meet her where she was at and
kind of playing this dance with her, and to be honest,
(21:17):
I don't think she read any of it. So then
I told my husband, I was like, Okay, so this
book that it wasn't a book yet, but it was
a letter I was writing.
Speaker 4 (21:23):
I was like, I think that this could go and
I could just kind of pull all my favorite resources
into one thing and then she can read it. And
so she was.
Speaker 5 (21:33):
A huge catalyst for it. My children were a huge
catalyst for it. But as the process continued and it
took over a year to do it, I've met so
many people who have left as well who I'm like,
oh my gosh, like I would love for you to
hear some of the things I'm learning, even my siblings,
because I want them to consider Christ after leaving, and
so far I haven't seen a lot of them do so.
(21:55):
So I just wanted to put it out in a
way where it's also better when it's writ because sometimes
you get so emotional when you're speaking, and sometimes that's
really necessary and beautiful to get that emotional, but sometimes it.
Speaker 4 (22:06):
Doesn't go the way we intend for it to go.
Speaker 5 (22:08):
So I think having it out written and being able
to smooth it over first before presenting it was kind
of a tactic that I wanted to use as well.
Speaker 4 (22:15):
So, yeah, it was. It kind of evolved. The motivations
behind the book evolved over time.
Speaker 3 (22:20):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (22:21):
I love how you said that you barked all over
because I feel like anyone who leaves the LDS Church
has done this to some extent. I did mine over Tacos,
so it wasn't probably the best time, and it was
over Tacos and one of my favorite people in my family.
Speaker 3 (22:36):
And it didn't go over so well.
Speaker 2 (22:38):
It didn't go over so well, and it was very
I was just like, maybe it's naive to think maybe
there's but you know, honestly.
Speaker 3 (22:47):
Give yourself grace because God gives us grace.
Speaker 2 (22:49):
And we were just so excited and so nervous, but
also reaching out for anybody, yeah, to talk to you
about this, because obviously we couldn't go to our bishops.
I hope we could. If we did, we were probably
going to get in trouble. Or basically it's kind of marked.
Speaker 5 (23:08):
Yes, yeah, mopetually because you think that everybody wants to
hear it. You're like, come on, I want to tell
you what I found out, but they don't. And I
have to remember all the time, even now, like who
was I before? And I have to put myself back
in that mindset and be like, Okay, I always told
things all the time that I just you know, because
I needed the church to be true.
Speaker 4 (23:27):
And I and I didn't. I didn't want to consider
anything otherwise.
Speaker 5 (23:31):
So I think just coming from a perspective of reading
the room and seeing where people are at before just
you know, coming at them. It's like a Calvinist right
out of cage stage. You know, You're just like, so
just you know, it is a cage stage. There's a
cage stage for Mormons too, when they leave.
Speaker 2 (23:45):
There is And I think that I think that I
pray and hope that, like you say, like there's a time,
and that we could be sensitive and also just be
aware that we are We're working with imperfect people, were
imperfect pains, but we are perfect in Christ, and so
that because we can just look at Him and say, Lord,
I don't know, can you please help guide me and
(24:07):
what to say and do you in these moments. So
it was it was very vulnerable the thing that you did.
First off, I feel like it was your diary in.
Speaker 3 (24:15):
So many ways.
Speaker 2 (24:16):
Like when I was reading it, I was like I
kept on kicking my husband. I was like, he's like
laying next door me, like in bed.
Speaker 3 (24:22):
I'm like, oh my gosh, this girl, Oh my gosh.
She's like, oh my gosh. This girl. I was like,
oh my gosh, she's just like me, Oh my gosh.
Speaker 2 (24:29):
I was thinking these things.
Speaker 3 (24:30):
I was like, oh my gosh, Sam, And He's.
Speaker 2 (24:31):
Just like uh huh uh huh, Like he just I
think our husbands are angels and themselves because they put
up with us. They do man, you know, shout out
to our husbands on this thing, just like we married
some spitfire women. But it's okay, it's okay. They deep
(24:51):
down love it, so okay. The biggest question, do you
think you'll ever regret writing the book?
Speaker 3 (24:59):
No?
Speaker 4 (25:00):
Oh, I don't.
Speaker 5 (25:00):
I think that I again regret some of the ways
that I have come at people, and I'm learning how
to especially the Church is changing so fast that even
the way that I perceive Mormons, there's way more questions
beforehand before going into any theological question. Excuse me any
theological discussions, but I think in general, I think it's
really important for a Christian to understand why they believe
(25:22):
what they believe. And I think the highest form of
love again is to tell people about Christ. And so
it was a labor of love. But it was something
that I would do again.
Speaker 3 (25:32):
Awesome, I would. I would.
Speaker 2 (25:34):
I hated to ask the question because it's like something that, well,
how will I know if I will regret it? But
really it's a very, like I said, vulnerable thing to do,
and I just applied your bravery because it is brave.
Speaker 3 (25:46):
It is very brave what you did.
Speaker 2 (25:47):
And so one of the questions, let's go back to
the book a little bit about Yeah, we kind of
got a little bit of mixture.
Speaker 3 (25:53):
I like to like shake.
Speaker 2 (25:55):
Things up because if we go if we go into
like just you know, programs situation, we want to just
talk about real things. One of the biggest questions in
the world is what is the purpose of life? And
you really you tackle that. You tackle that in this book,
which I honestly was very surprised with, and I was like, man,
I don't even know if I could explain to someone
(26:15):
like the way you I mean, you put it together
so well. And one of the quotes you put is
that the LDS faith teaches that this life is a
test in which we must keep the commandments and receive
acquired ordinances to one day become exalted to Godhood. Now,
now I'm gonna say this, Most LVS people are not
going to say this to their friend who says, what
(26:36):
is the purpose of life? Most ELDS people will I'm
not gonna I'm not going to say that it's a
dishonest thing, but they're going to say, oh Jesus loves you.
Speaker 3 (26:46):
But in the end, this is what they're thinking.
Speaker 2 (26:49):
This is what the highest form of being LDS, of
being a god, this is the ultimate goal. And so
he said, oh, it's like being a god, so we
can become God. I think that would come out weird.
Speaker 3 (27:01):
For one. One, it would come out weird. Two would
they'd be like, whoa you'aring become a god?
Speaker 2 (27:06):
Like like you know, from like the Avengers, like you know,
like people like you know, Zanos, Orthos, whatever they're called.
Speaker 3 (27:14):
I would probably think.
Speaker 2 (27:14):
Of that, and I think that's why we don't lead
into that with this quote. But you did touch on it,
and so why did you touch on it? It's kind
of I kind of curious because I think it's it's
such a big topic to get to get into.
Speaker 3 (27:26):
Oh.
Speaker 4 (27:27):
Absolutely, well.
Speaker 5 (27:28):
The biggest questions religion can offer or excuse me answers
that can offer is.
Speaker 4 (27:33):
Who is God? And why we're here? Like what is
our purpose?
Speaker 5 (27:36):
And I feel like our purpose in life really depends
on a relationship to our creator. And when you're LDS,
because you have a divine nature and you share in
his nature, you can become all that he is. And
it didn't feel like I was being self absorbed when
I talked about exultation, because I believe that's what I
was built for and that I was honoring Christ and
I was honoring the atonement by becoming all that I
(27:57):
was supposed to be and that I would if I
failed in test, if I failed in that obedience, then
I wasn't living up to my true potential. And so
for me, it wasn't like, oh, I can become a God,
like I'm you know, this is this is so self absorbed.
Speaker 4 (28:10):
I didn't feel that way. I thought it was a good,
beautiful thing.
Speaker 5 (28:13):
But the problem is is that Christians don't believe we
share in God's define nature. We can't become what he
is because God doesn't become God. God is immutable, and
it's a different God in Christian theology.
Speaker 4 (28:25):
So the big.
Speaker 5 (28:26):
Thing for me was, and I taught I talk on
this a little bit in the book too, is I
thought that Christians who were like the point of life
is to worship and glorify God, was like that is it?
Speaker 4 (28:36):
Like that's so like aim higher?
Speaker 5 (28:38):
You know, like this is so you're just gonna play
harps and you're just gonna sit there and vow to
this God, and how obsessed is this God and himself
that he can just make us so that we'll glorify him,
you know, And so those that was what I thought,
That's how I felt, And so I really wanted to
tackle not only who is God and who we are,
but why we're here. That's like one of the most
fundamental questions we can ask. And for a Christian it
(29:00):
isn't to become like God. It is to be reconciled
to God, to know God, to glorify God, and to
make Him known to others, and that's why we're here.
Speaker 2 (29:08):
So yeah, I love that you you put that together,
because honestly, that's the first thing, right And I love
how you said that you had.
Speaker 3 (29:16):
That thought because I had the same thought. I was like,
that sounds very.
Speaker 2 (29:20):
Boring, and we're gonna just stop seeing it at some point,
I don't know. And and now that I understand this
relationship that I've become within Christ, and I just there's
no words to express my happiness and joy with when
I found that true relationship with Christ and how it
should be right And I just I feel it's so
interesting because it's in the Bible. We could read it,
(29:42):
we could understand it, but there's always that caveat of
can we trust it? And so if we can truss
what Jesus says about who he is, I think that's
the starting point of all of that. And so thank
you for sharing that. This is a very funny quote.
I thought, see this, this is relatable. This is why
it's so relatable. I wish someone would have slapped me,
gently slap me. I don't that doesn't look a like
(30:02):
a gentle slap, but gently slap me across the face
and told me that our works cannot add to the
work on the cross. That is like a hammer on
the nail. Like that is That's a very There's so
much emotion in that quote. Okay, so first off, someone
just slappy like hey Brandy, stop, Hey an A, Lisa stop, Hey,
you know what.
Speaker 3 (30:20):
Stop. But then at the same time, we never, like
you said, it's.
Speaker 2 (30:26):
Twisted in a way that it's true enough to it's
truth mingled with fly and as we know, the best
lies in the world are mingled with some truth, So
we have to understand I'm using that word mingled.
Speaker 3 (30:40):
If you guys catch that. I like it.
Speaker 2 (30:46):
But I think it's interesting because if we would have
just sat down and really understood who our Lord's Savior was.
By his words, we would know that there's no way
that we could add to the cross. And it's just
a double, it's just a strong quote. So do you
want to touch on that a bit, like why it's
so important, like we cannot add to the cross?
Speaker 5 (31:06):
Absolutely? Well, I think the first thing is that Mormons
would agree. They would say, you're right, you cannot add
to the cross. And they'll say that Jesus was sufficient,
He's enough. The question becomes enough for what? Because what
Jesus did on the cross gives us per LVS doctrine,
a ticket out of hell, a resurrected body, and a
level of the Kingdom of heaven. Right, but what it
(31:27):
doesn't get us is to the Father. Jesus alone and
faith in him does not get us back to the Father.
And so I think when we say Jesus is enough
and they'll say amen, we need to say enough for what.
That's what it comes down to, and kind of like
what I talk about in my book, It's like Jesus
has brought us a base model of salvation, but we
need to utilizing the atonement, you know, upgrade until we
get to the Father, and that requires that we make
(31:50):
can keep sacre covenants in the temple, and so yeah,
I think if the second we have temple work that
is required of us to make to the Father, we're
conceding that the Cross isn't enough and so we're looking
to add to that. And I think that that is
the opposite of what Jesus was telling us to do,
which is that we can rest in him and his
finished work.
Speaker 3 (32:07):
Yeah, it reminds me of the scripture.
Speaker 2 (32:09):
It's a relations to twenty one that if it was
led by our works, then Christ that is dead in vain.
And it's just like, like, it just hurts me now
to even think, I don't know if it hurts you,
Does it hurt you?
Speaker 3 (32:20):
It hurts me to think that. But I'm so grateful.
Speaker 2 (32:23):
For amazing God that he loves all of us and
that he took us out of that mindset. But there's
that still remorse and it's that sanctification process and that
we're just still working with that because we're human where
we have those emotions, we have those things that come
through it. And it's still to this day, I cannot
believe I thought that, and it's just like it hurts
(32:45):
physically and I usually had to let out a big
side when it becomes overwhelming. It's like, my you know
what's overwhelming for me is when I sigh so deeply,
I'm just like just get it off, like I can't
do it. And so we're gonna touch a little bit
about that because it's a little overwhelming to be Lds,
I would say in a sense because of one of
(33:05):
my our favorite words is legalism. Okay, so we're gonna
talk about legalism. Most Mormons will never even heard that word.
And if they did hear that word, maybe like lawyers
like the law, Like what are you talking about so legally?
This is in your promire quote one of your books.
It says legalism leads to an emphasis on perfection and
falling short of perfection leads to billions of inadequacy and guilt.
Speaker 3 (33:28):
Okay, So that's Mormonism for it, I think, and most
people in.
Speaker 2 (33:32):
A nutshell, Okay, guys, I'm sorry, And if they don't,
if they're saying that it's not I'm sorry, that's a
little bit of a let's be honest, it's inadequacy and
guilt at times like did I go to the temple
enough Did I do as many genealogy searches?
Speaker 3 (33:44):
Oh?
Speaker 2 (33:44):
I didn't put enough names on the indexing car. I mean,
there's so much to be said and done. I did
I do my seven years? It used to be seven
years of this food storage. Now it's like six months
or three months. Now it's gonna be worse and worse time.
And so like as a mom, I mean, I was
raising three boys in this religion, guys, I was raising them,
and so I resonated with this because I felt that
(34:07):
I felt that overwhelming sense of perfect trying to be perfect.
And I feel like that's what Mormons are best known for,
is that they're always like picture perfect. They always have
there you know, there's there's this air of perfection when
it comes around them. So why is this important to
even speak about that far? Why isn't it important to
talk about the legalism behind it all?
Speaker 4 (34:28):
That's a great question.
Speaker 5 (34:29):
I think legalism really reflects that the Gospel becomes self oriented,
where we look to ourselves to go God, I'm either
performing adequately and therefore grace becomes a wage, where we
feel we've earned God's favor or salvation, or we feel
we need to somehow add to that, or we feel
crushed all the time that we are not denying all
on Godliness, which is what we're asked to do. We
(34:51):
have to deny all on godliness and then grace can
be sufficient for us.
Speaker 3 (34:54):
That is an.
Speaker 5 (34:55):
Impossible standard for lds, and so they're either going to
feel the weight of their scripture if they properly interpret them,
they'll realize, I cannot hit this standard that I have to.
Speaker 4 (35:04):
Meet, and I can't be perfect.
Speaker 5 (35:06):
Even using the atonement, I'm still not shedding sins as
frequently as I can.
Speaker 4 (35:10):
I'm not taking the sacrament enough.
Speaker 5 (35:11):
I wish we could take sacrament every single day, because
once it's Sunday on Saturday, I got a whole thing
of sins in my bank that I got to get
rid of. You know, hopefully I don't die on a Saturday.
That mentality is just like that. It wasn't enough. But again,
the atonement for a Laturday saint is that Jesus Christ
offers us salvation. But then we have to continue on
a personal that was universal. But then there's a personal
(35:34):
atonement that needs to continue to happen as we shed sin.
They are not afforded the idea that Jesus impuse his
righteousness onto us, and so you're left with either feeling
guilty and that the cross was insufficient to save you,
or feeling super prideful and that you finally conquered it,
and therefore you've added to the cross and the cross.
Speaker 4 (35:51):
Still remains insufficient. So either way, it's not the gospel.
Speaker 2 (35:55):
It mean, I mean, I think you speak quite a
bit about that in the book already Balance the balancing
act of Oh I didn't do this, but I did this.
Oh I didn't do that, but I did this. And
it speaks to that self self righteous and when I
don't when I say that, I guys self righteous person here,
I was self righteous. I'm surprised self righteous right now.
(36:16):
But because I live in Christ, He's He's sufficient of
all those things. Okay, guys, Like so you know when
I when I when I think about that, I think
about that self righteousness and that that that drive to
constantly like oh I didn't do this, but I did this,
I didn't do that, I did this. It's so overwhelmingly tired.
I got I think that you at some point someone buckles.
(36:40):
Now I gotta say, I gotta say this well, does
that make us lazy in Christ? Because that's what the
Mormons will come at you. They'll say, Okay, well you
just gave up. You didn't hold on to that rod.
Speaker 3 (36:52):
You went over to the great and spacious building. Me
and Brandy are going out and doing.
Speaker 2 (36:56):
Great, spacious building things. You're doing some crazy stuff, and
that's why we chose Jesus.
Speaker 3 (37:01):
Guys.
Speaker 2 (37:03):
So like, I think that's the next question that people
think is like, well, we just couldn't.
Speaker 3 (37:09):
You couldn't. You couldn't hack it. That's the best way.
Speaker 5 (37:12):
Yes, okay, So I'm so glad you asked this because
when I was LDS, I thought of the Christian version
of grace is so cheap. It was like, oh my gosh,
so you just say the words and you give a
little lip service.
Speaker 4 (37:23):
To God and then you're in.
Speaker 5 (37:25):
And I didn't understand what being born again was. I
didn't understand that regeneration was an actual spiritual rebirth. I
didn't understand that once we are reborn that we will
live a different way. I kind of talk about that
my book, like we're getting a new manager. The company
is going to be changed in some policies because we've
got a new manager.
Speaker 4 (37:41):
I'm no longer lord of my own life, but he is.
Speaker 5 (37:43):
And we work out our sanctification through grace still, right,
So we're saved by grace, and then through grace we
can continue to be conformed into the image of our savior.
But I won't say that we work our way into
his good grace. And I'm just as saved when I
disobey as when I obey. And I think that's what's
really hard. When I was LDS, having the spirit with
(38:04):
me was something that I only could have when I.
Speaker 4 (38:06):
Was worthy to have the Spirit with me.
Speaker 5 (38:08):
And so it's kind of like this oscillating, fluctuating relationship
you're having where it's like, Okay, now I've sinned, I've
lost the spirit.
Speaker 4 (38:15):
I've got to repent, then I can get them back.
Speaker 5 (38:17):
And it says back and forth and back and forth
and back and forth, and there's no security in that,
and it's exhausting. And what you're constantly doing is focusing
on yourself.
Speaker 4 (38:25):
Am I am?
Speaker 3 (38:26):
I good?
Speaker 2 (38:26):
Nap? You know.
Speaker 5 (38:27):
It's it's back and forth where you're constantly wondering did
I make it? You ask an LDS, are you going
to make it to the Father? I hope, So I hope, so,
I hope I did enough. And so the answer to
that is very clear on who they're looking to for
their ultimate destination in the next life. So I think
that there has to be a separation, which is why
justification and sanctification are such important concepts, because you can
(38:47):
be legally declared justice while simultaneously still be a sinner.
You're just not seen as a sinner in front of
a holy God, but you're still going to sin, and
that sin doesn't disqualify you because your obedience is not
what qualified you in the first place.
Speaker 4 (39:01):
So I think we just need to distinguish that.
Speaker 2 (39:04):
Yeah, and a lot of LDS people are maybe gonna
watch this and be like or people that.
Speaker 3 (39:07):
Are just coming new to the trade transition gonna be like.
Speaker 2 (39:10):
Justification, sanctification, Google It, got questions dot Com.
Speaker 3 (39:14):
Brandy's website is going to help you, guys. And the
book the.
Speaker 2 (39:17):
Book obviously, but I think it's also like how you
speak into that oscillating that feeling and then that I
was always like, we didn't touch on it, but I'm
gonna briefly touch on how that is something that I
find so overwhelmingly comforting because I when I read Ephesians
and I read the first chapter, and you read the
couple first verses in there, you are sealed with the
(39:39):
Holy Spirit of promise because you're hit because you believed.
And so when I read that, I'm just like, oh
my goodness, it was there the entire time. And so
without all that self righteous I can do it. I
can add to the cross. It becomes simpler. And let
me tell you, it becomes simpler.
Speaker 3 (39:56):
And if there's a process.
Speaker 2 (39:57):
Of healing, of course, of course we're always but at
the same time, for me personally, it was very much like, uh,
I don't want to say, I had an angst my
entire like my entire adulthood when I was at LDS.
And my husband has mentioned this before. He's like, it's
like he went back to almost like the person you
were before, being so serious in your in religion and
(40:20):
I and I and I love that. I love that
I'm getting back to the personality God gave me in
him and it's perfect and God, and I'm so grateful
for that because his love is just so overcompassing and
it's just so overwhelming and it's just so so I
love that you touch on all that and it's so important.
So if you guys want to know more, just like
really pick up the book and read it. And she
goes into great for Layman's processes, Like for myself, guys,
(40:42):
it can be it's a total readable and it's totally understandable,
and how Brady is played it is perfect.
Speaker 3 (40:48):
So biggest thing we're gonna wrap up some.
Speaker 2 (40:51):
Things I kind of want to just get into how
can people connect? Like how can people connect with you?
And also like if you're not going to write a book,
if they're not going to start a podcast, they're not
going to interview, how can they start walking with Christ?
And if you can also share your testimony and remember
those feelings and giving what Christ has done for you.
Speaker 4 (41:13):
Now, okay, I'll try to get all those questions in order.
Let's see.
Speaker 5 (41:21):
I think that there are some wonderful resources that I
have come across.
Speaker 4 (41:24):
Mormonism.
Speaker 5 (41:24):
Research Ministry is one that really comes out in my
head because Eric Johnson is so faithful to help those
who are struggling to find Christ after Mormonism. There are
certain podcasts and resources that people can start to consume
if they are really wondering what the biblical Christianity, the
Biblical Christ offers that Mormonism does not. So I have
some of those posted on my Instagram. You're welcome to
(41:46):
reach out to me. I have people dming me every
day and just talking about you know, like what does
this mean? Like how do I make this happen? I'm
so confused about this and that, and so walking through
that with them is really a beautiful thing I'm privileged
to do. So I also know a lot of people
who've reached out and just said, you know, I'm sorry,
I can't like order your book because I don't want
(42:08):
this on my Amazon account and I can't.
Speaker 4 (42:10):
You know, have people around me have, you know, see
this going on.
Speaker 5 (42:13):
And so I've seen some really interesting situations come about
through this process too of writing this book, and just
have a greater and a deeper gratitude for the ability
to write this because some people are not in a
situation where they can talk about their faith journey. And
I also think that we need to stick together because
(42:34):
we're there's only a few of.
Speaker 4 (42:35):
Us like we out of the whole world.
Speaker 5 (42:38):
You know, all the Mormons are like this much, but
then the ones who have found Christ or are considering
it are so small and people need to know that
there's more out there just besides ignosticism or atheism. There
is a Christ that I believe that I didn't properly
know in the LD search that I know now and
I just want that for other people. So there are
(42:58):
a lot of beautiful resources out there. Jesus is Enough
is another organization that actually can help you find a
church as well. It's on their website. So those are
some great resources there. Okay, what was your next question eron?
Speaker 4 (43:08):
Have forgot it?
Speaker 3 (43:10):
So? How how has this like?
Speaker 2 (43:12):
If you could just share your testimony? Because I really
I just admire your passion and your honesty and I
think everyone's going to see the genuiness in what you
speak and know how you explain everything. Can you just
share your testimony? And I know that sounds like super
mormony because share your testimony. We're invested in testimony, but no,
like it is your true testimony of finding the biblical Jesus,
(43:32):
and I just want you to share that because I
think that so many people can gain such strength from
what you can share. And I know that there's people
out there searching, and I know the Lord's going to
reach them. And so that's why I just encourage you
guys to reach out to Brandy as well. So it's yours,
the floor is yours.
Speaker 4 (43:52):
Yes, Okay.
Speaker 5 (43:54):
Well, I used to say that I know this church
is true and that Joseph Smith is a prophet, but
now I can say that I know that you Jesus
is the truth, and that Jesus is my prophet, and
he's my temple, and he's all of the things fulfilled
within scripture. And I believe that he is the son
of God who took on flesh to redeem those who
have faith in him, and that through him alone we
can be reconciled to a holy God and have peace with.
Speaker 4 (44:16):
Him, have fellowship with him.
Speaker 5 (44:18):
And I think for my family it's super important to
know that we can rest in that finished work and
that there's nothing that we can do, and there's nothing
required of us, and there's nothing we could do in reverse,
there's nothing we could neglect in order to be kicked
out of his presence when we are justified before him.
So I have faith, and I have trust, biblical trust
that what he did is sufficient and that not only
(44:39):
did he die for my sin, but Jesus also lived
under the law perfectly to offer me his righteousness. And
I know that a lot of people feel it's not
just that we need to be cleansed of our sin,
but we need to be righteous.
Speaker 4 (44:51):
We need to be righteous.
Speaker 5 (44:52):
So we're either going to look to our own righteousness
or we're going to look to Christ righteousness. We have
two options. And now that I can look to him,
I'm so grateful because I was not meeting the mark.
And he is my high priest, he is my King,
and he is my Savior, and that is my testimony.
Speaker 3 (45:09):
Amen, thank you so much.
Speaker 2 (45:11):
I was I was holding back the amens because I'm
getting amen over here.
Speaker 3 (45:14):
Amen. Amen. Amen.
Speaker 2 (45:16):
That's not something that you know LDS people do, but
that's as a new Christian. I'm loving the amens. So
I just want to say thank you so much. I
honestly I think and that story.
Speaker 3 (45:31):
Guys.
Speaker 2 (45:31):
I love this girl. We've been talking almost every day.
One of the best people I've met, and I just
want to tell you reach out, reach out and read
her book. It is so worth your time. And I
just want to say thank you for being here and
keep on seeking truth and look to Jesus.
Speaker 3 (45:44):
If it's not this.
Speaker 2 (45:45):
Moment guys, it's going to happen at some point. But
I pray that you do and you find our your
Lord and Savior, because he is going to find you.
He'll find me the darkest places, the places you don't
think that he would he would be, but he's there.
He is there holding your hand, and he's looking for you.
Just reach out to him. So thank you so much,
And I think Kai's in a jump right back on.
Speaker 1 (46:07):
Oh my gosh, that was such a fire interview. That
was insane. I was fist bumping, like pumping the whole time.
There were so many good quotes in that and oh
my gosh, you guys are amazing. Really that was It
was fun for me to be backstage and listen to this.
(46:31):
If anyone is interested in Brandy's book, and maybe they
can't order it on their Amazon, please reach out Jesus
for Mormons and I will send you a copy Jesus
for Mormons at gmail dot com and I will send
you a copy. If that's something that doesn't that you
don't want to have to show up there. This was
(46:51):
such a good interview. I feel like any talking that
I do will take away from it.
Speaker 2 (46:56):
Oh my gosh, So.
Speaker 1 (46:58):
I really appreciate Brandy and Anna Lisa coming on go
check out Brandy's book as you can tell both but
Brandy's very articulate, can really put together her feelings and
express those and that is the journey to Jesus finding
Christ after leaving Mormonism. All right, well, we love you guys,
(47:21):
and we'll see you next time.
Speaker 4 (47:23):
Thank you so much,
Welcome to this episode of Jesus for Mormons. I am
Kai Van Luvin and we are doing a book review
on Brandy Bronson's book, The Journey to Jesus. And for
this book review we have Onna, Lisa and the author
(00:23):
of the book, Brandy. I'm gonna step away from this
one and let them tell their story and so with
that on a Lisa awesome.
Speaker 2 (00:34):
Well, thanks so much guys for being here. We're gonna
have a lot of fun. Okay, So we have Brandi here.
She has been on Jesus from Mormons before and she
wrote a book and that's why we're here, and so
we're so excited. We're gonna work talk about face transitions,
about how do you wrestle the truth and really importantly,
what does it mean to find Jesus?
Speaker 3 (00:55):
So Brandy, can you go and introduce yourself?
Speaker 4 (00:58):
Oh my goodness, Well, thank you so much for having
me today.
Speaker 5 (01:00):
And I'm grateful that you read the book and then
I was invited on to talk about it, So thank
you so much. And yeah, we kind of already covered
my story on the last episode on the last podcast.
Speaker 4 (01:10):
Thanks Kai for letting me come back on.
Speaker 5 (01:13):
But I just was raising a very traditional LDIAS family
and family of six and grew up in the church
and went to Bou and got married in the temple
and served faithfully, faithfully until my exodus.
Speaker 3 (01:25):
So awesome.
Speaker 2 (01:26):
Okay, So just a couple of years. So when did
you leave the LDS Church? So you were LDS all
your life and you left at what time? And then
how how long has it been since your life leaving.
Speaker 5 (01:35):
It's been a little over four years now since I
love the LDIA in about two years since I've come
to Christ.
Speaker 2 (01:41):
Okay, awesome, And you wrote a book already, Wow, Yeah, yeah, over,
we're here. That's amazing though, That's amazing. Okay, So we're
going to dive deep into it. First couple of questions
and then we're going to go backtrack a little bit,
just because I want to touch on some important things.
So you talked to me before a little bit. Obviously
we all had testimonies in the LDS Church. One of
(02:04):
the biggest things I noticed when you wrote this book,
you wrote that you felt it in your bones that
you were confidence that you had the truth. Yeah, So
how did that emotion play into all of this and
how did that lead into writing the book?
Speaker 3 (02:18):
Yeah?
Speaker 5 (02:19):
I mean, I would say that my testimony within the
Eldist Church was very much based on the experiential and
that didn't mean that I didn't believe the doctrine.
Speaker 4 (02:27):
I did, and I thought it made sense. I thought
it offered more specificity than traditional Christianity. But I did
feel it just in my bones. I just I knew
it was true.
Speaker 5 (02:35):
I had so much peace reading the Book of Mormon,
and I really believed that we had the proper authority.
And in my book I kind of mentioned that I
had that really crazy experience when I was a preteen
and had to have surgery, life saving surgery, and we
talked a little bit about that behind the scenes. But
hearing the doctor say that I might not be able
to have children based off of just the absences that
(02:57):
were growing in my reproductive system and all the horrible
things going on in my body, that kind of broke
me because I only wanted to be a wife and
a mother. That's all I wanted, That's all I ever wanted.
So wrestling with that until it was time for my
patriarchal blessing was really really challenging for me, and it
was really heavy, and I actually remember there was a woman.
(03:19):
It is during sacrament meeting one time, she said that
she had been told by her patriarch that she was
going to have children, but that later on, when she
got married, she found out that she was infertile. And
so I remember sitting there kind of uncomfortable, and she
was like, but she had been given a witness later
on that that meant that she was going to be
having children in the next life, and that Heavenly Father
had promised for those babies for later. And that didn't
(03:42):
sit super well with me at the time because I
was like, well, I want to make sure when I
get my patriarchal blessing that the patriarch specifies in this life.
So I prayed and prayed and prayed to make sure
that when it was time for me to get my
patriarchal blessing, that he would be very articulate in that I.
Speaker 4 (03:56):
Was going to birth my own children in this life.
And he did.
Speaker 5 (03:59):
He said a very scific phrase that really put my
heart to rest and and really solidified my testimony that
we had real patriarchs who listened to God and that
God was listening to me. So yeah, I just I
had certain experiences within the Aldis Church. That really solidified
what I thought was the validity of it.
Speaker 2 (04:18):
Yeah, that's that's I mean, what you explained right there.
It's very similar to a lot of experiences that people
have throughout their lives and and I kind of find
it interesting just to touch on a little bit. But
first off, it's one of the biggest things that lds
woman to want to be a mother.
Speaker 3 (04:34):
You're like, if you're if you don't have that desire,
then you.
Speaker 2 (04:37):
Pray for that desire, yes, because if you don't.
Speaker 3 (04:40):
Have it, there's something wrong with you.
Speaker 2 (04:41):
You obviously that's your number one role in this life
is to become a mother and a mother and Zion,
if you want to put it that way, and many
of the patriarchal Wessons did put it, and so.
Speaker 3 (04:52):
I can only imagine how that felt.
Speaker 2 (04:54):
Especially it kind of reminds me a little bit about
kind of what's similar how Joseph Smith in that whole,
Like he had that surgery and then he could walk
and you know kind of and all those things. And
so I find it so interesting but also very key
that you still are trying to figure it out. You're
trying to you're trying to make sense of it all,
and do you find that something that's more LDS like
(05:16):
or is it more Christian? Would you say that's more
leaning towards one and the other.
Speaker 5 (05:21):
I think everyone uses the experiential, and I don't think
that we should necessarily say that because we experience something
that it can't lead to truth or isn't a form
of understanding truth. I think the hard part is for
Mormons and Christians and people of faith in general, is
slapping on experiences onto their theology and saying because I
experienced this, therefore my belief system and my worldview is accurate.
(05:42):
So I do believe that God is a personal God
and that he greaches us where we are. But I
think a lot of the times the way that we
translate that as human beings can be very incorrect.
Speaker 3 (05:52):
That's that's perfect. I kind have put it better. That's awesome.
Speaker 2 (05:54):
I think that's a great way to show the different
and also to make sure that we don't convolute God's.
Speaker 3 (06:01):
Will, right, we don't convolute to to what we want it.
So there's this. As you're reading your book, Okay, I
gotta say, guys, I love her book. I have been
telling everybody about it and I am like the number
one fan.
Speaker 2 (06:14):
I took that badge.
Speaker 3 (06:15):
I take that badge of number one fan.
Speaker 2 (06:17):
I've told everybody and their uncles and their brothers and everybody,
and I told everyone because it's just such a relatable book.
And I'm just I'm being completely honest. It's a relatable book.
You're very honest in it, very approachable as you are
right now, and I think that sneaks through your book,
and I think that it's very unique. I say, I
would say, I would say it's unique in general, but
I would say it's unique to the Mormon women, more
(06:41):
Mormon woman lifestyle. That's yours honesty and your your just
your canid demeanor is very apparent. So one of the
things that I loved about your book, one of my
favorite parts was when you were at graduation.
Speaker 3 (06:56):
And you basically.
Speaker 2 (06:59):
Gave out book Mormon Too. And I can only imagine,
I just I just know it. You're like getting so
excited and so ready for graduation and writing these down
and praying and making sure. I just I just see,
like an eighteen year old Brandy write these beautiful like
letters out to people, and you give it away to
your most closest friends, and teachers, and so this is
(07:19):
a photo of that, and I just want to share that.
Speaker 3 (07:24):
I think it's like, what was driving that?
Speaker 2 (07:25):
Like, I mean, obviously we as LDS people, we want
to preach the Gospel to everybody, but that was an
extra step.
Speaker 3 (07:32):
I would say.
Speaker 2 (07:33):
That's a very unique and a very and just a
passion driven personality.
Speaker 3 (07:38):
So what drove that?
Speaker 4 (07:40):
Oh totally, Yes. I had so much zeal for my testimony.
Speaker 5 (07:44):
I was one hundred percent sure in my position and
my worldview, and I just really felt as though, now
that my best friends and my teachers and people i'd
been with for so many years where we were, you know,
going on different paths, that hopefully there'd be a time
where they would come to dust off that Book of
Mormon that the Weird Chick gave them a graduation, and
(08:06):
they were in a point of life where I really
did feel as each one of them would open it
up and they'd be like, oh yeah, and they'd look
through it and the highlighted parts that I put in there,
and the testimony that I had written on the front
of it, and I was sure that they would be
compelled at some point in their life to accept the
Gospel so yeah, I took it upon myself. I went
to the word clerk and I was like, hey, get
me as many of these blue books as you can.
I'm gonna get as many as I can out before
(08:27):
I head off to BYU.
Speaker 4 (08:29):
And I just it's because I think that was a
form and it still is.
Speaker 5 (08:32):
Spreading the Gospel for me is the highest form of love,
and when you're in the Restored Gospel, you think that
presenting the Restored Gospel is the highest form of love.
So it's I don't think it's antagonistic to want to
share your faith with people and ask them to reconsider
their world views. Because when you believe you of the
truth and you believe that, you know you want don't
you want eternal families? Don't you want exaltation? Like these
(08:52):
things can be yours. I just I wanted them to
take it seriously.
Speaker 2 (08:56):
Yeah, I find that it's like you know what you
said right there, It's like you it's the highest form
of love, so true, so true, And so I think
it's interesting though it's it's I would say, uh, we
can get to theology, but it's it's Mormonism does teach
that you have so many chances and so what I
guess like the driven, the drive is is just to
(09:17):
be unique and go out there and actually do it.
So I always like to say Mormons ALBS Church created
its own, it's own little army with itself because we
are so vocals as we are right now talking about
this on you know, Wednesday afternoon. Yes, and you know
that's just that's just I guess you could say, like
it's it's kind of like too bad. I mean, we
(09:40):
took the tools and we're using it to our benefit
to help further God's kingdom of the biblical Jesus, Right,
And so I do want to talk on some pretty
big questions you touch not only like it's just a
very relatable book. So you guys get the book because
it is so relatable, but it's super funny.
Speaker 3 (09:55):
I laughed out loud, like it's funny, and so I'm.
Speaker 2 (09:59):
One of the the interesting part about it is that
you combined the humor with very serious questions, very very
big theological questions, and you touched on it. You didn't
just we went into it deep enough to get us like, hey,
this is a starting.
Speaker 3 (10:12):
Point and where do we go from there? And I
just love that.
Speaker 2 (10:15):
So there's some big questions. You discovered some inconsistencies, right,
some inconsistencies as you found as you were on your
faith transition, like the two different accounts of the Book
Mormon and how they were translated. You said something very interesting,
and I think it's my first quote that it pulls up.
So this is a this is very this is what
we are being taught Joseph Smith and his amazing spectacles.
(10:38):
And I mean that warm lamp glow everything about it.
It just seems warm and fuzzy. Am I right? Is
this what we were taught? Oh?
Speaker 4 (10:46):
One hundred percent, this is exactly what we were taught.
Speaker 5 (10:49):
It was this idea that you know, Joseph Smith had
these gold plates in front of him and that he
was translating line uponline, and that translation process was all
that I was aware of for until I left, until
I realized what the truth was.
Speaker 2 (11:03):
Yeah, and that's and this is what this coke. I mean,
I just love this quote. It says I would have
I would have believed the church regardless of how they
told me things went down. They she came down to this,
why are there ever two different translation processes?
Speaker 3 (11:16):
And why wasn't I taught the true process.
Speaker 2 (11:18):
I mean, it's it's a valid question. And I find
that if they're honest with themselves, if people who are
questioning the Church are honest with this with this question,
why were we not told the true process?
Speaker 3 (11:29):
Which is, you know, what's the true process? Brandnie?
Speaker 2 (11:33):
How about you just gave me the spoilin what is
the true process?
Speaker 5 (11:36):
Well, when I learned that Justice Smith never needed the
gold plates plates at all, right, so he.
Speaker 4 (11:40):
Actually used to keep stone in a hat.
Speaker 5 (11:42):
And when I when I thought about that, I thought, well,
again I would have trusted the Church had they come
out originally and said so.
Speaker 4 (11:47):
The problem was is that now we have.
Speaker 5 (11:49):
Two conflicting ideas of how this translation process went down,
and the second, more accurate portrayal of the translation process
involved no plates at all. So when you hear stories
about him, you know, carrying these plates and running with them,
and and people their persecution through the plates to go,
what is the point of that? What is the point
of inscribing this on gold plates at all? What was
the point of any of this? So it didn't make
sense to me. And I also saw the fact that
(12:10):
it wasn't even being taught at all until really recently,
and the narrative changed led me to believe that things were
buried instead of being transparent, and so it showed a
deeper rot in the church. Then I who was allowing
myself to see previously. So I think that was what
it came down to for me, was that the gold
plates weren't even necessary. I mean there was a time
in Joseph Smith wasn't allowed to translate right because he
had made mistakes, and the gold plates were removed from
(12:31):
him for a time. And it's like, well, if he
was just using the hat in the stone, then why
would that have mattered. So there's so many holes now
in that narrative of the translation process. And that was
just one of many issues. There wasn't just one. If
it was just that one, maybe I could have wiggled.
Speaker 4 (12:45):
My way out of it. But it was that there
was an overwhelming amount of evidence stacking up against the
narratives that I was taught growing up.
Speaker 2 (12:53):
Yeah, yeah, I love how you just said right there,
It's like I could have.
Speaker 3 (12:56):
Maybe wiggled my way.
Speaker 2 (12:58):
Isn't that something you typically do when it's uncomfortable to
see something that was obviously not told to us?
Speaker 3 (13:06):
And then we're trying to justify it.
Speaker 2 (13:09):
So like that goes into my next question, right, So
it's kind of very interesting to think about. So at
some point you had to ask yourself, like it is
it worth it? Is it worth it to keep going?
Is it worth it to relearn anything new? Is it
worth it? And I know your your book touches on
your process of leaving, and I love how you kind
of walk through those processes. So guys, pick it up.
(13:31):
If I didn't say it again, if I can haven't
read it, but can I ask you was it worth it?
And and can you make sense to somebody with the
answer why it's worth it or why it's not worth it?
Speaker 3 (13:43):
Obviously? Right?
Speaker 5 (13:44):
Yeah, absolutely, And I think that's what it comes down
to a lot of the times, is is it worth
it to leave the church? When the church tells you
it's them or nothing? So if it's this is the
church of you know, I actually posted this week on
my Instagram page, which is where will you go?
Speaker 4 (13:56):
What will you do?
Speaker 5 (13:57):
These questions of there's nothing for you anywhere else, there's
no way to know truth?
Speaker 4 (14:01):
And so that's what's really scary.
Speaker 5 (14:03):
About leaving is going, Well, there's no other way to
know any sort of truth, and so I might as
well stay. And yes, I don't believe the truth claims
are accurate anymore, but I know the community. It's the
devil I know. And so at the beginning those conversations
did happen with my husband where we were like, well,
we still thought of church as kind of the avenue
for moral development, and I wanted my.
Speaker 4 (14:23):
Kids to have a community. They wanted them to have purpose.
Speaker 5 (14:26):
I mentioned in my book about Dennis Praeger when he
talks about how the belief in God is just as
important as the existence of God, and I believe that
he's onto something when he says that the existence of God.
Obviously I believe in the existence of God, but living
out a life of faith does so much for us
mentally and psychologically. And I wanted my children to have
that meeting and purpose that I don't feel like postmodern
(14:46):
and secularism offers. And so I was like, well, we
might fake it till we make it, and we can
keep going to the LDS Church. And so that was
on the table for a while, and it for me,
I felt like, and this is what really.
Speaker 4 (14:58):
It came down to. I knew that there was absolute truth.
Speaker 5 (15:01):
I knew that, regardless of whether you thought and on
a Lisa that purple unicorns dropped us from the sky
or we started from nothing and restart us. And no
matter what we believe, there's something that really happened. There's
really an absolute truth out there, regardless of our our
lowercase tea truths.
Speaker 1 (15:17):
Right.
Speaker 4 (15:18):
I just didn't know if I could find that anymore.
Speaker 5 (15:19):
So I think that's what's really hard for lds leaving
is their epistemologies in question.
Speaker 4 (15:23):
They're like, how do we know what we know? And
how can we find truth?
Speaker 5 (15:26):
Because so far we had revelation written down, as well
as a living oracle, a prophet who could tell us
what the truth was.
Speaker 4 (15:33):
And when that is shattered for you, you go, well.
Speaker 5 (15:36):
I guess I'm going to find the truth within because
there's nowhere else to find it, and even then I'll
just have my truth. And so I saw that to
be problematic, but I didn't really know a way around it.
Speaker 4 (15:45):
So I thought, we'll just keep going to the Mormon Church.
Speaker 5 (15:47):
And it wasn't until really understanding the God of the
Bible and meeting him did I realize that I couldn't
afford to bring them to the LD's church anymore.
Speaker 2 (15:56):
That's I mean, there's so much to be said what
you just said right now, But I think think the
biggest thing I think about when you're talking about all this,
I mean the fact that you're walking through these questions
and you're thinking about them right as you're walking through them.
How often did you have time to do that as
an lbs person? And let's be honest, how busy were you?
And I feel like, not just because of the church,
(16:18):
but also because of just life in general.
Speaker 3 (16:21):
Kids, you know, work, things like that and.
Speaker 2 (16:24):
That are just kind of pushing us to this. So
I mean, I think it's amazing that you walk through it,
and you're walking through it with this in this book,
and I think that people are encouraged when they hear it.
But it's definitely a question, I think someone and that
reminds you of the scripture. Every need will bow right,
And so at some point in life, we're going to
come to that point where we're just like, Lord, what
is the truth? Or pray to We don't even might
(16:46):
not even pray to Jesus at that moment, but like
we're going to come to a moment where like, what
is truth and how can I find it objectively? Regardless
of how I feel about the truth or whatever, it's
going to be an objective truth. So I think that's
great that you're putting that into perspective. And I think
also it's also a timing issue, right, and we only
know what the Lord is and has and has through everybody,
(17:08):
but very.
Speaker 3 (17:10):
Deep questions, very deep questions for sure.
Speaker 5 (17:13):
No, And I think your point is so well taken
because when you're LDS, I actually loved that.
Speaker 4 (17:17):
I didn't have to struggle with the big questions.
Speaker 5 (17:19):
Everything had been figured out for me in this nice,
little pretty box, so I didn't worry about what is
the purpose of life?
Speaker 2 (17:24):
And who am I?
Speaker 5 (17:25):
And where am I going? And who's my creator. It's
painful to start over. It's scary, and it is so uncomfortable.
And the amount, and this is what it comes down to,
is you have to pick, like, am I going to
choose the LDS Church and all the peace and the
security that that provides, or am I going to venture
off into this scary abyss where I'm just broken and
I don't have any source of truth. And that's very scary,
(17:47):
and I think most people will go never mind, I'm
going back that way, and we see it all the time,
and I was I was kind of willing to do that.
I mean, again, I didn't believe the truth claims anymore,
but I thought maybe we could just stick with the
community and I could find.
Speaker 4 (18:00):
Value in that.
Speaker 5 (18:00):
But yeah, I think that having the time and energy
to really think through how do we know what we know?
Speaker 1 (18:05):
What is truth?
Speaker 4 (18:06):
Who am I? All those big questions, It's it's very
scary to.
Speaker 5 (18:10):
Be that open and vulnerable to that, especially coming from
an eldest background where everything is just so secure and
specific and has been founded into you since day one.
So yeah, I actually loved that. I never had to
struggle with an identity before. I saw that happening to
my friends in high school, and I was like, just
wait until you're Mormon, and then it'll all be figured
out for you. You can just you know, it's very peaceful,
and they've got all these pretty answers on a plate.
(18:32):
But and then I ended up having a faith crisis,
an identity crisis, and they were already figuring themselves out,
you know.
Speaker 4 (18:37):
So I was just behind the game. But and it
was humbling.
Speaker 5 (18:40):
It was very humbling because I was so prideful and
sure of myself. So there was a lot of humility
in saying I don't know like anything anymore.
Speaker 3 (18:49):
And that said, we go, you go. It's just so
much detail what you did there right now.
Speaker 2 (18:53):
But it just touches on such deep things about you know,
things that in the church that we don't realize that
are somewhat prideful, that we take for like, oh we know,
we know, and it takes us a certain amount of humbleness.
I think that life sometimes smacks this in the face.
And we'll talk about smacking this laughing in a couple
of minutes, but let's just talk about now that we
(19:15):
talked a little bit about this. The reason why I
want to focus on this question in the middle of
the interview. Okay, it's really like, who did you write
this for?
Speaker 3 (19:22):
I mean, who did you picture? Right?
Speaker 2 (19:25):
Did you picture me, I only say, in the middle
of Metida and Katzne reading your book and just being
like this is amazing.
Speaker 3 (19:31):
Or did you picture some random person at a bus stop?
Speaker 2 (19:34):
Like?
Speaker 3 (19:34):
Who did you picture this for?
Speaker 5 (19:36):
Okay, Well, first, I kind of started writing this because
I wanted my kids to have a sense of what
it was like to grow up LDS. We are such
a peculiar people, and back in the day when I
was being raised, we were less worldly than I feel
like a lot of LDS are now a lot more
influenced by culture.
Speaker 4 (19:53):
But back in the day, we were very peculiar and
we liked it that way.
Speaker 5 (19:56):
And so there were so many things I loved about
being peculiar, and some of the things, obviously I could,
you know, leave, but some of the things I wanted
to keep. So I wanted to write it all down
and just really ruminate on my upbringing. And through that process,
I also started saying, well, I'm gonna write down why
I left then, and why it's important that I left,
and why it truth matters, and what truth I feel
(20:17):
like I've found here, And so I wanted to write
my testimony. I wanted to write it all down for
my kids. Really was a Google doc that kind of transformed.
And a huge catalyst for this was that one of
my best friends in high school excuse me, in Utah
from college after college, and I love her to death,
and she was going through a little bit of a
faith crisis as well. And I did something that I
(20:37):
wish I could take back, which is I just started
barfing at her all the things that I was learning,
and she wasn't ready for it, and so it did
a detriment to our friendship because I didn't understand that
not everybody was where I was at. You know what
I'm trying to say, I'm like, everybody who here's what
I hear is going to feel the way that I feel.
Speaker 4 (20:55):
About it, and that's not true.
Speaker 5 (20:56):
So I just started going at her really hard, and
she was ready for it, and so I started just
backing off a little bit. And so then I started
shipping her books like Mere Christianity and all these kind
of more apologetics books also just for the belief in
God and all these things. And I was just trying
really hard to meet her where she was at and
kind of playing this dance with her, and to be honest,
(21:17):
I don't think she read any of it. So then
I told my husband, I was like, Okay, so this
book that it wasn't a book yet, but it was
a letter I was writing.
Speaker 4 (21:23):
I was like, I think that this could go and
I could just kind of pull all my favorite resources
into one thing and then she can read it. And
so she was.
Speaker 5 (21:33):
A huge catalyst for it. My children were a huge
catalyst for it. But as the process continued and it
took over a year to do it, I've met so
many people who have left as well who I'm like,
oh my gosh, like I would love for you to
hear some of the things I'm learning, even my siblings,
because I want them to consider Christ after leaving, and
so far I haven't seen a lot of them do so.
(21:55):
So I just wanted to put it out in a
way where it's also better when it's writ because sometimes
you get so emotional when you're speaking, and sometimes that's
really necessary and beautiful to get that emotional, but sometimes it.
Speaker 4 (22:06):
Doesn't go the way we intend for it to go.
Speaker 5 (22:08):
So I think having it out written and being able
to smooth it over first before presenting it was kind
of a tactic that I wanted to use as well.
Speaker 4 (22:15):
So, yeah, it was. It kind of evolved. The motivations
behind the book evolved over time.
Speaker 3 (22:20):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (22:21):
I love how you said that you barked all over
because I feel like anyone who leaves the LDS Church
has done this to some extent. I did mine over Tacos,
so it wasn't probably the best time, and it was
over Tacos and one of my favorite people in my family.
Speaker 3 (22:36):
And it didn't go over so well.
Speaker 2 (22:38):
It didn't go over so well, and it was very
I was just like, maybe it's naive to think maybe
there's but you know, honestly.
Speaker 3 (22:47):
Give yourself grace because God gives us grace.
Speaker 2 (22:49):
And we were just so excited and so nervous, but
also reaching out for anybody, yeah, to talk to you
about this, because obviously we couldn't go to our bishops.
I hope we could. If we did, we were probably
going to get in trouble. Or basically it's kind of marked.
Speaker 5 (23:08):
Yes, yeah, mopetually because you think that everybody wants to
hear it. You're like, come on, I want to tell
you what I found out, but they don't. And I
have to remember all the time, even now, like who
was I before? And I have to put myself back
in that mindset and be like, Okay, I always told
things all the time that I just you know, because
I needed the church to be true.
Speaker 4 (23:27):
And I and I didn't. I didn't want to consider
anything otherwise.
Speaker 5 (23:31):
So I think just coming from a perspective of reading
the room and seeing where people are at before just
you know, coming at them. It's like a Calvinist right
out of cage stage. You know, You're just like, so
just you know, it is a cage stage. There's a
cage stage for Mormons too, when they leave.
Speaker 2 (23:45):
There is And I think that I think that I
pray and hope that, like you say, like there's a time,
and that we could be sensitive and also just be
aware that we are We're working with imperfect people, were
imperfect pains, but we are perfect in Christ, and so
that because we can just look at Him and say, Lord,
I don't know, can you please help guide me and
(24:07):
what to say and do you in these moments. So
it was it was very vulnerable the thing that you did.
First off, I feel like it was your diary in.
Speaker 3 (24:15):
So many ways.
Speaker 2 (24:16):
Like when I was reading it, I was like I
kept on kicking my husband. I was like, he's like
laying next door me, like in bed.
Speaker 3 (24:22):
I'm like, oh my gosh, this girl, Oh my gosh.
She's like, oh my gosh. This girl. I was like,
oh my gosh, she's just like me, Oh my gosh.
Speaker 2 (24:29):
I was thinking these things.
Speaker 3 (24:30):
I was like, oh my gosh, Sam, And He's.
Speaker 2 (24:31):
Just like uh huh uh huh, Like he just I
think our husbands are angels and themselves because they put
up with us. They do man, you know, shout out
to our husbands on this thing, just like we married
some spitfire women. But it's okay, it's okay. They deep
(24:51):
down love it, so okay. The biggest question, do you
think you'll ever regret writing the book?
Speaker 3 (24:59):
No?
Speaker 4 (25:00):
Oh, I don't.
Speaker 5 (25:00):
I think that I again regret some of the ways
that I have come at people, and I'm learning how
to especially the Church is changing so fast that even
the way that I perceive Mormons, there's way more questions
beforehand before going into any theological question. Excuse me any
theological discussions, but I think in general, I think it's
really important for a Christian to understand why they believe
(25:22):
what they believe. And I think the highest form of
love again is to tell people about Christ. And so
it was a labor of love. But it was something
that I would do again.
Speaker 3 (25:32):
Awesome, I would. I would.
Speaker 2 (25:34):
I hated to ask the question because it's like something that, well,
how will I know if I will regret it? But
really it's a very, like I said, vulnerable thing to do,
and I just applied your bravery because it is brave.
Speaker 3 (25:46):
It is very brave what you did.
Speaker 2 (25:47):
And so one of the questions, let's go back to
the book a little bit about Yeah, we kind of
got a little bit of mixture.
Speaker 3 (25:53):
I like to like shake.
Speaker 2 (25:55):
Things up because if we go if we go into
like just you know, programs situation, we want to just
talk about real things. One of the biggest questions in
the world is what is the purpose of life? And
you really you tackle that. You tackle that in this book,
which I honestly was very surprised with, and I was like, man,
I don't even know if I could explain to someone
(26:15):
like the way you I mean, you put it together
so well. And one of the quotes you put is
that the LDS faith teaches that this life is a
test in which we must keep the commandments and receive
acquired ordinances to one day become exalted to Godhood. Now,
now I'm gonna say this, Most LVS people are not
going to say this to their friend who says, what
(26:36):
is the purpose of life? Most ELDS people will I'm
not gonna I'm not going to say that it's a
dishonest thing, but they're going to say, oh Jesus loves you.
Speaker 3 (26:46):
But in the end, this is what they're thinking.
Speaker 2 (26:49):
This is what the highest form of being LDS, of
being a god, this is the ultimate goal. And so
he said, oh, it's like being a god, so we
can become God. I think that would come out weird.
Speaker 3 (27:01):
For one. One, it would come out weird. Two would
they'd be like, whoa you'aring become a god?
Speaker 2 (27:06):
Like like you know, from like the Avengers, like you know,
like people like you know, Zanos, Orthos, whatever they're called.
Speaker 3 (27:14):
I would probably think.
Speaker 2 (27:14):
Of that, and I think that's why we don't lead
into that with this quote. But you did touch on it,
and so why did you touch on it? It's kind
of I kind of curious because I think it's it's
such a big topic to get to get into.
Speaker 3 (27:26):
Oh.
Speaker 4 (27:27):
Absolutely, well.
Speaker 5 (27:28):
The biggest questions religion can offer or excuse me answers
that can offer is.
Speaker 4 (27:33):
Who is God? And why we're here? Like what is
our purpose?
Speaker 5 (27:36):
And I feel like our purpose in life really depends
on a relationship to our creator. And when you're LDS,
because you have a divine nature and you share in
his nature, you can become all that he is. And
it didn't feel like I was being self absorbed when
I talked about exultation, because I believe that's what I
was built for and that I was honoring Christ and
I was honoring the atonement by becoming all that I
(27:57):
was supposed to be and that I would if I
failed in test, if I failed in that obedience, then
I wasn't living up to my true potential. And so
for me, it wasn't like, oh, I can become a God,
like I'm you know, this is this is so self absorbed.
Speaker 4 (28:10):
I didn't feel that way. I thought it was a good,
beautiful thing.
Speaker 5 (28:13):
But the problem is is that Christians don't believe we
share in God's define nature. We can't become what he
is because God doesn't become God. God is immutable, and
it's a different God in Christian theology.
Speaker 4 (28:25):
So the big.
Speaker 5 (28:26):
Thing for me was, and I taught I talk on
this a little bit in the book too, is I
thought that Christians who were like the point of life
is to worship and glorify God, was like that is it?
Speaker 4 (28:36):
Like that's so like aim higher?
Speaker 5 (28:38):
You know, like this is so you're just gonna play
harps and you're just gonna sit there and vow to
this God, and how obsessed is this God and himself
that he can just make us so that we'll glorify him,
you know, And so those that was what I thought,
That's how I felt, And so I really wanted to
tackle not only who is God and who we are,
but why we're here. That's like one of the most
fundamental questions we can ask. And for a Christian it
(29:00):
isn't to become like God. It is to be reconciled
to God, to know God, to glorify God, and to
make Him known to others, and that's why we're here.
Speaker 2 (29:08):
So yeah, I love that you you put that together,
because honestly, that's the first thing, right And I love
how you said that you had.
Speaker 3 (29:16):
That thought because I had the same thought. I was like,
that sounds very.
Speaker 2 (29:20):
Boring, and we're gonna just stop seeing it at some point,
I don't know. And and now that I understand this
relationship that I've become within Christ, and I just there's
no words to express my happiness and joy with when
I found that true relationship with Christ and how it
should be right And I just I feel it's so
interesting because it's in the Bible. We could read it,
(29:42):
we could understand it, but there's always that caveat of
can we trust it? And so if we can truss
what Jesus says about who he is, I think that's
the starting point of all of that. And so thank
you for sharing that. This is a very funny quote.
I thought, see this, this is relatable. This is why
it's so relatable. I wish someone would have slapped me,
gently slap me. I don't that doesn't look a like
(30:02):
a gentle slap, but gently slap me across the face
and told me that our works cannot add to the
work on the cross. That is like a hammer on
the nail. Like that is That's a very There's so
much emotion in that quote. Okay, so first off, someone
just slappy like hey Brandy, stop, Hey an A, Lisa stop, Hey,
you know what.
Speaker 3 (30:20):
Stop. But then at the same time, we never, like
you said, it's.
Speaker 2 (30:26):
Twisted in a way that it's true enough to it's
truth mingled with fly and as we know, the best
lies in the world are mingled with some truth, So
we have to understand I'm using that word mingled.
Speaker 3 (30:40):
If you guys catch that. I like it.
Speaker 2 (30:46):
But I think it's interesting because if we would have
just sat down and really understood who our Lord's Savior was.
By his words, we would know that there's no way
that we could add to the cross. And it's just
a double, it's just a strong quote. So do you
want to touch on that a bit, like why it's
so important, like we cannot add to the cross?
Speaker 5 (31:06):
Absolutely? Well, I think the first thing is that Mormons
would agree. They would say, you're right, you cannot add
to the cross. And they'll say that Jesus was sufficient,
He's enough. The question becomes enough for what? Because what
Jesus did on the cross gives us per LVS doctrine,
a ticket out of hell, a resurrected body, and a
level of the Kingdom of heaven. Right, but what it
(31:27):
doesn't get us is to the Father. Jesus alone and
faith in him does not get us back to the Father.
And so I think when we say Jesus is enough
and they'll say amen, we need to say enough for what.
That's what it comes down to, and kind of like
what I talk about in my book, It's like Jesus
has brought us a base model of salvation, but we
need to utilizing the atonement, you know, upgrade until we
get to the Father, and that requires that we make
(31:50):
can keep sacre covenants in the temple, and so yeah,
I think if the second we have temple work that
is required of us to make to the Father, we're
conceding that the Cross isn't enough and so we're looking
to add to that. And I think that that is
the opposite of what Jesus was telling us to do,
which is that we can rest in him and his
finished work.
Speaker 3 (32:07):
Yeah, it reminds me of the scripture.
Speaker 2 (32:09):
It's a relations to twenty one that if it was
led by our works, then Christ that is dead in vain.
And it's just like, like, it just hurts me now
to even think, I don't know if it hurts you,
Does it hurt you?
Speaker 3 (32:20):
It hurts me to think that. But I'm so grateful.
Speaker 2 (32:23):
For amazing God that he loves all of us and
that he took us out of that mindset. But there's
that still remorse and it's that sanctification process and that
we're just still working with that because we're human where
we have those emotions, we have those things that come
through it. And it's still to this day, I cannot
believe I thought that, and it's just like it hurts
(32:45):
physically and I usually had to let out a big
side when it becomes overwhelming. It's like, my you know
what's overwhelming for me is when I sigh so deeply,
I'm just like just get it off, like I can't
do it. And so we're gonna touch a little bit
about that because it's a little overwhelming to be Lds,
I would say in a sense because of one of
(33:05):
my our favorite words is legalism. Okay, so we're gonna
talk about legalism. Most Mormons will never even heard that word.
And if they did hear that word, maybe like lawyers
like the law, Like what are you talking about so legally?
This is in your promire quote one of your books.
It says legalism leads to an emphasis on perfection and
falling short of perfection leads to billions of inadequacy and guilt.
Speaker 3 (33:28):
Okay, So that's Mormonism for it, I think, and most
people in.
Speaker 2 (33:32):
A nutshell, Okay, guys, I'm sorry, And if they don't,
if they're saying that it's not I'm sorry, that's a
little bit of a let's be honest, it's inadequacy and
guilt at times like did I go to the temple
enough Did I do as many genealogy searches?
Speaker 3 (33:44):
Oh?
Speaker 2 (33:44):
I didn't put enough names on the indexing car. I mean,
there's so much to be said and done. I did
I do my seven years? It used to be seven
years of this food storage. Now it's like six months
or three months. Now it's gonna be worse and worse time.
And so like as a mom, I mean, I was
raising three boys in this religion, guys, I was raising them,
and so I resonated with this because I felt that
(34:07):
I felt that overwhelming sense of perfect trying to be perfect.
And I feel like that's what Mormons are best known for,
is that they're always like picture perfect. They always have
there you know, there's there's this air of perfection when
it comes around them. So why is this important to
even speak about that far? Why isn't it important to
talk about the legalism behind it all?
Speaker 4 (34:28):
That's a great question.
Speaker 5 (34:29):
I think legalism really reflects that the Gospel becomes self oriented,
where we look to ourselves to go God, I'm either
performing adequately and therefore grace becomes a wage, where we
feel we've earned God's favor or salvation, or we feel
we need to somehow add to that, or we feel
crushed all the time that we are not denying all
on Godliness, which is what we're asked to do. We
(34:51):
have to deny all on godliness and then grace can
be sufficient for us.
Speaker 3 (34:54):
That is an.
Speaker 5 (34:55):
Impossible standard for lds, and so they're either going to
feel the weight of their scripture if they properly interpret them,
they'll realize, I cannot hit this standard that I have to.
Speaker 4 (35:04):
Meet, and I can't be perfect.
Speaker 5 (35:06):
Even using the atonement, I'm still not shedding sins as
frequently as I can.
Speaker 4 (35:10):
I'm not taking the sacrament enough.
Speaker 5 (35:11):
I wish we could take sacrament every single day, because
once it's Sunday on Saturday, I got a whole thing
of sins in my bank that I got to get
rid of. You know, hopefully I don't die on a Saturday.
That mentality is just like that. It wasn't enough. But again,
the atonement for a Laturday saint is that Jesus Christ
offers us salvation. But then we have to continue on
a personal that was universal. But then there's a personal
(35:34):
atonement that needs to continue to happen as we shed sin.
They are not afforded the idea that Jesus impuse his
righteousness onto us, and so you're left with either feeling
guilty and that the cross was insufficient to save you,
or feeling super prideful and that you finally conquered it,
and therefore you've added to the cross and the cross.
Speaker 4 (35:51):
Still remains insufficient. So either way, it's not the gospel.
Speaker 2 (35:55):
It mean, I mean, I think you speak quite a
bit about that in the book already Balance the balancing
act of Oh I didn't do this, but I did this.
Oh I didn't do that, but I did this. And
it speaks to that self self righteous and when I
don't when I say that, I guys self righteous person here,
I was self righteous. I'm surprised self righteous right now.
(36:16):
But because I live in Christ, He's He's sufficient of
all those things. Okay, guys, Like so you know when
I when I when I think about that, I think
about that self righteousness and that that that drive to
constantly like oh I didn't do this, but I did this,
I didn't do that, I did this. It's so overwhelmingly tired.
I got I think that you at some point someone buckles.
(36:40):
Now I gotta say, I gotta say this well, does
that make us lazy in Christ? Because that's what the
Mormons will come at you. They'll say, Okay, well you
just gave up. You didn't hold on to that rod.
Speaker 3 (36:52):
You went over to the great and spacious building. Me
and Brandy are going out and doing.
Speaker 2 (36:56):
Great, spacious building things. You're doing some crazy stuff, and
that's why we chose Jesus.
Speaker 3 (37:01):
Guys.
Speaker 2 (37:03):
So like, I think that's the next question that people
think is like, well, we just couldn't.
Speaker 3 (37:09):
You couldn't. You couldn't hack it. That's the best way.
Speaker 5 (37:12):
Yes, okay, So I'm so glad you asked this because
when I was LDS, I thought of the Christian version
of grace is so cheap. It was like, oh my gosh,
so you just say the words and you give a
little lip service.
Speaker 4 (37:23):
To God and then you're in.
Speaker 5 (37:25):
And I didn't understand what being born again was. I
didn't understand that regeneration was an actual spiritual rebirth. I
didn't understand that once we are reborn that we will
live a different way. I kind of talk about that
my book, like we're getting a new manager. The company
is going to be changed in some policies because we've
got a new manager.
Speaker 4 (37:41):
I'm no longer lord of my own life, but he is.
Speaker 5 (37:43):
And we work out our sanctification through grace still, right,
So we're saved by grace, and then through grace we
can continue to be conformed into the image of our savior.
But I won't say that we work our way into
his good grace. And I'm just as saved when I
disobey as when I obey. And I think that's what's
really hard. When I was LDS, having the spirit with
(38:04):
me was something that I only could have when I.
Speaker 4 (38:06):
Was worthy to have the Spirit with me.
Speaker 5 (38:08):
And so it's kind of like this oscillating, fluctuating relationship
you're having where it's like, Okay, now I've sinned, I've
lost the spirit.
Speaker 4 (38:15):
I've got to repent, then I can get them back.
Speaker 5 (38:17):
And it says back and forth and back and forth
and back and forth, and there's no security in that,
and it's exhausting. And what you're constantly doing is focusing
on yourself.
Speaker 4 (38:25):
Am I am?
Speaker 3 (38:26):
I good?
Speaker 2 (38:26):
Nap? You know.
Speaker 5 (38:27):
It's it's back and forth where you're constantly wondering did
I make it? You ask an LDS, are you going
to make it to the Father? I hope, So I hope, so,
I hope I did enough. And so the answer to
that is very clear on who they're looking to for
their ultimate destination in the next life. So I think
that there has to be a separation, which is why
justification and sanctification are such important concepts, because you can
(38:47):
be legally declared justice while simultaneously still be a sinner.
You're just not seen as a sinner in front of
a holy God, but you're still going to sin, and
that sin doesn't disqualify you because your obedience is not
what qualified you in the first place.
Speaker 4 (39:01):
So I think we just need to distinguish that.
Speaker 2 (39:04):
Yeah, and a lot of LDS people are maybe gonna
watch this and be like or people that.
Speaker 3 (39:07):
Are just coming new to the trade transition gonna be like.
Speaker 2 (39:10):
Justification, sanctification, Google It, got questions dot Com.
Speaker 3 (39:14):
Brandy's website is going to help you, guys. And the
book the.
Speaker 2 (39:17):
Book obviously, but I think it's also like how you
speak into that oscillating that feeling and then that I
was always like, we didn't touch on it, but I'm
gonna briefly touch on how that is something that I
find so overwhelmingly comforting because I when I read Ephesians
and I read the first chapter, and you read the
couple first verses in there, you are sealed with the
(39:39):
Holy Spirit of promise because you're hit because you believed.
And so when I read that, I'm just like, oh
my goodness, it was there the entire time. And so
without all that self righteous I can do it. I
can add to the cross. It becomes simpler. And let
me tell you, it becomes simpler.
Speaker 3 (39:56):
And if there's a process.
Speaker 2 (39:57):
Of healing, of course, of course we're always but at
the same time, for me personally, it was very much like, uh,
I don't want to say, I had an angst my
entire like my entire adulthood when I was at LDS.
And my husband has mentioned this before. He's like, it's
like he went back to almost like the person you
were before, being so serious in your in religion and
(40:20):
I and I and I love that. I love that
I'm getting back to the personality God gave me in
him and it's perfect and God, and I'm so grateful
for that because his love is just so overcompassing and
it's just so overwhelming and it's just so so I
love that you touch on all that and it's so important.
So if you guys want to know more, just like
really pick up the book and read it. And she
goes into great for Layman's processes, Like for myself, guys,
(40:42):
it can be it's a total readable and it's totally understandable,
and how Brady is played it is perfect.
Speaker 3 (40:48):
So biggest thing we're gonna wrap up some.
Speaker 2 (40:51):
Things I kind of want to just get into how
can people connect? Like how can people connect with you?
And also like if you're not going to write a book,
if they're not going to start a podcast, they're not
going to interview, how can they start walking with Christ?
And if you can also share your testimony and remember
those feelings and giving what Christ has done for you.
Speaker 4 (41:13):
Now, okay, I'll try to get all those questions in order.
Let's see.
Speaker 5 (41:21):
I think that there are some wonderful resources that I
have come across.
Speaker 4 (41:24):
Mormonism.
Speaker 5 (41:24):
Research Ministry is one that really comes out in my
head because Eric Johnson is so faithful to help those
who are struggling to find Christ after Mormonism. There are
certain podcasts and resources that people can start to consume
if they are really wondering what the biblical Christianity, the
Biblical Christ offers that Mormonism does not. So I have
some of those posted on my Instagram. You're welcome to
(41:46):
reach out to me. I have people dming me every
day and just talking about you know, like what does
this mean? Like how do I make this happen? I'm
so confused about this and that, and so walking through
that with them is really a beautiful thing I'm privileged
to do. So I also know a lot of people
who've reached out and just said, you know, I'm sorry,
I can't like order your book because I don't want
(42:08):
this on my Amazon account and I can't.
Speaker 4 (42:10):
You know, have people around me have, you know, see
this going on.
Speaker 5 (42:13):
And so I've seen some really interesting situations come about
through this process too of writing this book, and just
have a greater and a deeper gratitude for the ability
to write this because some people are not in a
situation where they can talk about their faith journey. And
I also think that we need to stick together because
(42:34):
we're there's only a few of.
Speaker 4 (42:35):
Us like we out of the whole world.
Speaker 5 (42:38):
You know, all the Mormons are like this much, but
then the ones who have found Christ or are considering
it are so small and people need to know that
there's more out there just besides ignosticism or atheism. There
is a Christ that I believe that I didn't properly
know in the LD search that I know now and
I just want that for other people. So there are
(42:58):
a lot of beautiful resources out there. Jesus is Enough
is another organization that actually can help you find a
church as well. It's on their website. So those are
some great resources there. Okay, what was your next question eron?
Speaker 4 (43:08):
Have forgot it?
Speaker 3 (43:10):
So? How how has this like?
Speaker 2 (43:12):
If you could just share your testimony? Because I really
I just admire your passion and your honesty and I
think everyone's going to see the genuiness in what you
speak and know how you explain everything. Can you just
share your testimony? And I know that sounds like super
mormony because share your testimony. We're invested in testimony, but no,
like it is your true testimony of finding the biblical Jesus,
(43:32):
and I just want you to share that because I
think that so many people can gain such strength from
what you can share. And I know that there's people
out there searching, and I know the Lord's going to
reach them. And so that's why I just encourage you
guys to reach out to Brandy as well. So it's yours,
the floor is yours.
Speaker 4 (43:52):
Yes, Okay.
Speaker 5 (43:54):
Well, I used to say that I know this church
is true and that Joseph Smith is a prophet, but
now I can say that I know that you Jesus
is the truth, and that Jesus is my prophet, and
he's my temple, and he's all of the things fulfilled
within scripture. And I believe that he is the son
of God who took on flesh to redeem those who
have faith in him, and that through him alone we
can be reconciled to a holy God and have peace with.
Speaker 4 (44:16):
Him, have fellowship with him.
Speaker 5 (44:18):
And I think for my family it's super important to
know that we can rest in that finished work and
that there's nothing that we can do, and there's nothing
required of us, and there's nothing we could do in reverse,
there's nothing we could neglect in order to be kicked
out of his presence when we are justified before him.
So I have faith, and I have trust, biblical trust
that what he did is sufficient and that not only
(44:39):
did he die for my sin, but Jesus also lived
under the law perfectly to offer me his righteousness. And
I know that a lot of people feel it's not
just that we need to be cleansed of our sin,
but we need to be righteous.
Speaker 4 (44:51):
We need to be righteous.
Speaker 5 (44:52):
So we're either going to look to our own righteousness
or we're going to look to Christ righteousness. We have
two options. And now that I can look to him,
I'm so grateful because I was not meeting the mark.
And he is my high priest, he is my King,
and he is my Savior, and that is my testimony.
Speaker 3 (45:09):
Amen, thank you so much.
Speaker 2 (45:11):
I was I was holding back the amens because I'm
getting amen over here.
Speaker 3 (45:14):
Amen. Amen. Amen.
Speaker 2 (45:16):
That's not something that you know LDS people do, but
that's as a new Christian. I'm loving the amens. So
I just want to say thank you so much. I
honestly I think and that story.
Speaker 3 (45:31):
Guys.
Speaker 2 (45:31):
I love this girl. We've been talking almost every day.
One of the best people I've met, and I just
want to tell you reach out, reach out and read
her book. It is so worth your time. And I
just want to say thank you for being here and
keep on seeking truth and look to Jesus.
Speaker 3 (45:44):
If it's not this.
Speaker 2 (45:45):
Moment guys, it's going to happen at some point. But
I pray that you do and you find our your
Lord and Savior, because he is going to find you.
He'll find me the darkest places, the places you don't
think that he would he would be, but he's there.
He is there holding your hand, and he's looking for you.
Just reach out to him. So thank you so much,
And I think Kai's in a jump right back on.
Speaker 1 (46:07):
Oh my gosh, that was such a fire interview. That
was insane. I was fist bumping, like pumping the whole time.
There were so many good quotes in that and oh
my gosh, you guys are amazing. Really that was It
was fun for me to be backstage and listen to this.
(46:31):
If anyone is interested in Brandy's book, and maybe they
can't order it on their Amazon, please reach out Jesus
for Mormons and I will send you a copy Jesus
for Mormons at gmail dot com and I will send
you a copy. If that's something that doesn't that you
don't want to have to show up there. This was
(46:51):
such a good interview. I feel like any talking that
I do will take away from it.
Speaker 2 (46:56):
Oh my gosh, So.
Speaker 1 (46:58):
I really appreciate Brandy and Anna Lisa coming on go
check out Brandy's book as you can tell both but
Brandy's very articulate, can really put together her feelings and
express those and that is the journey to Jesus finding
Christ after leaving Mormonism. All right, well, we love you guys,
(47:21):
and we'll see you next time.
Speaker 4 (47:23):
Thank you so much,
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