April 23, 2025 • 60 mins
In this episode of Jesus for Mormons, Kai Van Leuven and Pastor Di examine the Mormon Church's controversial history with race, focusing on its past teachings about Black members, including the priesthood ban that wasn't lifted until 1978 and its reluctance to open missions in Africa during the Civil Rights Movement. It critiques the hypocrisy of the church's token support for civil rights while denying Black members key privileges, such as eternal family sealing and priesthood. The speaker, a descendant of Brigham Young, reflects on the damaging racist teachings of the past, including the belief that skin color was tied to spiritual failure. They contrast the Mormon Church's exclusionary stance with the inclusivity of the Azusa Street Revival and discuss the dangers of blind loyalty to religious leaders, encouraging a more personal, critical, and direct relationship with God for spiritual renewal.
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Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/share/g/kxt1hS692rDMcJi8/
Website: https://jesusformormons.com/
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:02):
If the eternal salvation of your children was based on
them marrying someone who was black, would you encourage them
to do it?
Speaker 2 (00:12):
Hi?
Speaker 1 (00:13):
I am Kai van Lubin and this is Jesus for Mormons,
and I am joined by my lovely co host Iabeels.
Speaker 3 (00:22):
Hello.
Speaker 2 (00:23):
Hello, All right, well here we are die.
Speaker 1 (00:26):
We're starting with maybe a little bit of controversy to
start our episode, so why don't we just get right
into it. So we are going to read this quote
by Brigham Young. You would think that it would be
like a white supremacist like you think it'd be like
the Proud Boys who made this statement, But no, it
(00:48):
was the second prophet of the Mormon Church, Brigham Young,
and it says, shall I tell you the law of
God in regard to the af Can race. If the
white man, who belongs to the Chosen Seed mixes his
blood with the seed of Cain, the penalty under the
(01:12):
law of God is death on the spot. This will
always be So.
Speaker 4 (01:24):
Break them on, so that people really know that you
do not feed me these things ahead of time.
Speaker 3 (01:43):
I have no words. How do you How do you
look at people knowing? How what do they say about this?
Do people ask about this?
Speaker 1 (01:53):
So this is actually a quote that I read it
funny enough, I read it on a Mormon apoll elegenics website.
I read like part of the quote and I was like,
that's not a real quote. Like this just isn't real,
you know when you read something and you're like, nah,
like that's like taken out of context, and you know,
(02:16):
people's influence, like people who really hate the church are
pulling this out. And then I read the full quote
and I was like, oh, and he goes he goes on.
This is like the summer. You know, this is like
just a snippet from that from that talk, but it's
so like just gnarly. And then I put I think
(02:37):
it's interesting to I also put for those of you
watching this on YouTube, I put a picture of a
you know, a white wife, a black husband, and then
their kids, right, you know, mixed kids or whatever. And
I think it just kind of shows like this just
stark reality and they're happy, you know, it's very happy,
(02:58):
beautiful family. And I think it shows just like this
stark reality between this person who's believed to be the
prophet of God in you know, the mid eighteen hundreds
and then like what like a beautiful family looks like right,
and these two, these two different things.
Speaker 3 (03:18):
You're going to have to help me out here. I
need I need a little more information. It is this?
How hard was this to find? Did people actually die
on the spot? Give me? Give me some where? Where
is this? And how long was it peddled to people?
Speaker 1 (03:37):
Okay, so let's do a little bit of a history lesson.
Are you ready for this one? Die?
Speaker 2 (03:41):
You're kind of teeing me up without that, I am.
Speaker 3 (03:43):
I am ready for this one.
Speaker 2 (03:45):
Okay.
Speaker 1 (03:45):
So this whole idea of blacks in the priesthood, so
Joseph Smith was kind of okay with blacks in the priesthood.
So the priesthood is that, by Mormon definition, is the
power and authority delegated to ma'am to act for God.
So you would need the priesthood to like baptize or
(04:06):
to marry people on the temple, or to give the
gift of the Holy Ghost, or to administer the church,
like to be a bishop or something like that. Right,
So Joseph Smith was actually like kind of cool with this,
and he ordained a few people to the priesthood, but
(04:26):
then he died. Brigham Young kind of took over. We
could talk about the succession, but when I say take over,
I think that's a really light way to put it.
He hostily took over the church, excommunicating people rising to power. Whatever. Sorry,
I'll go down a little rabbit trail there, takes over
(04:49):
the church. And so then from eighteen fifty two it's
a little fuzzy. So let's just say the mid eighteen fifties,
the eighteen fifties. He there is no one else ordained
to be a given the priesthood in the church.
Speaker 2 (05:06):
Okay, okay, Now you might.
Speaker 1 (05:09):
Say, like priesthood, like what does that really mean and
what does that entail? So in order to be in
the Highest Kingdom in the Mormon Church, you have to
have the priesthood, right, so you need to be sealed
to your family for time and all eternity.
Speaker 3 (05:29):
So the highest kingdom after death after death.
Speaker 1 (05:32):
Yeah, so I mean in the Christian Like to put
this in a Christian context, that's like salvation Like.
Speaker 3 (05:40):
This, right, you can't go to heaven if you are
If you are I mean the color.
Speaker 1 (05:45):
Of skin, yes, to really simplify it, if you are black,
you are not like going to be in the Highest
Kingdom in heaven.
Speaker 3 (05:56):
What if you're not black but brown? What does this
do for other races? Or am I totally off track?
Speaker 4 (06:03):
No?
Speaker 1 (06:04):
You can. So if you're everything but black, you're good.
Speaker 3 (06:10):
What why we can?
Speaker 1 (06:13):
I think I actually have it in the next slide.
Oh come on, I kind of talk about that. This
is like and even I didn't know that, Like I
was like, I didn't really think about the implications. Like
I was like, oh, yeah, they banned blacks in the priesthood.
Speaker 3 (06:26):
Wait, hypothetically, now we have ancestry dot com. So do
you have to be a part of Mormon priesthood? Do
you have to show your your ancestry? Do you have
to be able to show your genealogy? Because what if
you become a part of the priest or you get
sealed to your family or whatever, and then you do
ancestry dot com and you find out that you are
(06:47):
four percent African? Are you out? Because that's what that said.
Speaker 1 (06:52):
Well, they didn't have ancestry dot com in nineteen seventy eight. Yeah,
shout out our sponsor ancestry dot com. I'm just kidding, weird,
they did not have that in nineteen seventy eight. They
I'm such a goofball. They didn't have it in nineteen
seventy eight, so you wouldn't know. But there was some
(07:13):
weird stuff. Gosh, I don't really have it here. It's
very sensationalized. But there was like a lady who was
who was married to a black man before got divorced
but had black children and then was getting married to
a white guy and the church refused sealing them together
(07:34):
because she had half black children.
Speaker 3 (07:39):
I just want to know. The Seed of Cain part
was kind of weird for me too. I'm really curious
where that came from.
Speaker 1 (07:45):
But go, yeah, go ahead, yeah, I have some official declarations.
I think they're h next slide couple slides from them.
So you couldn't receive your endowment, so that means like
to be exalted, like this gift from God where you
go pretty much you couldn't go through the temple at all. Okay,
you couldn't hold any significant church calling, so you couldn't
(08:06):
be like a bishop or an elder scorn president or
and they kind of lax that towards the end and
they let people be presidents of like auxiliaries, like you
could have a Release Society president, which would be like women,
the women's society, right, So there were all of these
(08:26):
restrictions that existed, and I think it kind of and
I'm just going to tell you straight up. For me,
somebody who I honestly love uncomfortable conversations, I think it's
something that I learned as a missionary for the Church
of Jesus Christ of Latter day Saints. You got to
put that in there. I really enjoy uncomfortable. And as
(08:50):
I thought about this, there's really two ends of the
spectrum that you can talk about race in general in
twenty twenty five. You can have this idea that, like,
you want a virtue signal, and oh, these are the
worst people on the planet, how could they ever do
such a thing?
Speaker 2 (09:08):
Right?
Speaker 1 (09:09):
That's one end of the of the spectrum. And then
there's this other end of the spectrum that is defending
it and talking about how it was culturally acceptable in
that time. And let's explain away all of these things.
For me in this discussion, I'm going to try to
be right down the middle of like what is morally
(09:32):
right and wrong and to not try to explain away
any of this. For those of you who this may
be your first episode listening to this Brigham Young, the
person who made this quote is my four time great grandfather.
I am a direct descendant of him. If there's anyone
(09:55):
who wants to defend the statements of family members, which
he is a family member mine, it would be me.
So I wanted to kind of throw that disclosure in
there before we get too far into this episode, and
hopefully we find this discussion somewhere in the middle. Let's
(10:15):
talk about in the nineteen sixties when kind of the
church was starting to be a little softer on these
race issues, and we have to I think we also
have to throw in what is happening in the United States, right.
We have the civil rights movement led by Martin Luther
King Junior. We have all of these you know, we
(10:36):
have the women's suffrage movement that's happening where women are
getting the right to vote. All of these things right,
and the Church, the Mormon Church, it will always be
the church to me. Unfortunately, the Mormon Church. In the
nineteen sixties, the church president, who is also the prophet,
began considering opening up a mission in Nigeria.
Speaker 2 (11:00):
Now, this is I think.
Speaker 1 (11:01):
That's actually kind of an interesting thing that they were
considering this considering that probably ninety nine percent of the
people there I would assume are of African descent, it
was decided that only the auxiliaries so die. What I
mean by auxiliaries is Primary Release Society, Young Men's Young
(11:23):
Women's Right would be set up in Nigeria, which would
which could be operated without the priesthood. Nigerian men would
be allowed to pass the sacrament, but white missionaries would
need to bless it. However, the program was canceled after
(11:46):
several members of the corm of the Twelve Apostles objected,
you can't make this stuff up.
Speaker 3 (11:55):
Die, I have no Mormon background in me, and all
I want to do is apologize right now.
Speaker 1 (12:02):
Well, yeah, I mean it's pretty like disgusting, right if
you even think about awful that era, Like, who's on
what side? The Mormon Church would love to think that
it's on the side of We're on the side of
you know, civil rights, and we're on I mean, everyone
(12:23):
wants to be on that side, right in hindsight, everyone
wants to be on the right side of history. Yeah,
and here they are, you know, having the chance to
kind of we could we could do this in Nigeria,
and they decide not to. This is a This was
another interesting thing that I did not know. On April fifth,
(12:48):
So April fourth of nineteen sixty eight, Martin Luther King
was assassinated. And I think that's really important to keep
that in mind. So April fourth, well, as all good
Mormons know, and as die is coming to know, the
first weekend in April is General Conference righth, So April fourth,
(13:12):
Martin Luther King is assassinated. April fifth is General Conference.
Speaker 2 (13:17):
Okay, okay, And.
Speaker 1 (13:21):
In the first session of General Conference, Hugh B. Brown,
who is conducting General Conference, said, at this time, we
expressed deep sorrow and shock at the news of the
passing of a man. He actually didn't say his name,
the passing of a man who dedicated his life to
(13:41):
what he believed to be the welfare of his people.
It is a shocking thing, that is that in this
age such a thing could happen. We pray God's blessing
upon his family, his friends, and the associated with him.
(14:05):
I mean, I think it's an interesting nod to Martin
Luther King.
Speaker 3 (14:09):
Yep.
Speaker 2 (14:10):
And at this same time.
Speaker 3 (14:13):
Like it's a very well crafted statement, at least it
appears that way.
Speaker 2 (14:20):
Yeah, And.
Speaker 1 (14:23):
I guess this is maybe where I get a little
bit like fired up. Yes, you're kind of giving this
token nod.
Speaker 3 (14:31):
No, you crafted it carefully to not actually say anything.
Speaker 1 (14:38):
Yeah, but if you were a full believing Mormon, you
know that this life does not matter. Right, And even
if you're a full believing person in nineteen sixty eight,
you are denying these people eternal families yep, right, yeah,
which is a core belief of your doctrine. Right, you're
(15:03):
denying Like really, you aren't publicly coming out and saying
we deny inner rachel marriage, but you won't let those
people be sealed to each other.
Speaker 3 (15:14):
No, that's that's exactly what I'm saying. He is carefully
crafted a way to dance around this. Yeah.
Speaker 1 (15:22):
Yeah, And I just think it's I wrote on the
title of this for those of you who are watching
on YouTube, it says a nod to MLK, but delusion
of what it meant, Like, yeah, sorry, but disillusion of
what it meant.
Speaker 3 (15:40):
But it is kind of delusional too.
Speaker 2 (15:42):
Yeah. I can't. I can't even read my own words.
Speaker 1 (15:46):
I just think it's really crazy that they're like, oh, yeah, this,
this guy died for what he believes in but yet
we're still denying these I don't even know if i'd
say rights. We're denying these privileges or the priesthood to
people who look just like him, and we're we're also
(16:09):
part of this problem. We haven't changed, you.
Speaker 3 (16:13):
Know, we didn't pull the trigger, but we're we're in
the guilts category.
Speaker 1 (16:20):
Yeah yeah, but you know, they nod to it so
that the people who are who are pro civil rights
are like, yeah, our church gets us, and then they
don't really say anything. Yeah for the people who are like, well,
black shouldn't have the priesthood right, they're trying to kind
of speak out of both sides of their mouth on
(16:42):
this issue, and I think it's I don't really respect it.
If I'm just being honest, I think you say nothing
right if you're still denying these people absolutely of rights
and you you know, I just don't think you say
anything personally. So this is ten years before the priesthood ban. Okay,
(17:06):
so there are some official church letters, and this goes
back to your question of well, why like why are
they doing this? You know, like, why are they why
do they have these feelings about the seed. We're going
to say the seed of Cain Cain, so die Cain Abel.
(17:29):
That's where we're that's what we're talking about here, right,
So Cain slew his brother Abel. Yes, what happens is
the first Presidency issues like letters and these would be
like read from the pulpit, so these would be read
in front of the whole congregation. And they issued two letters,
one in nineteen forty nine and one in nineteen sixty nine.
(17:50):
And these letters kind of explain why they still have
not lifted the priesthood ban or allowed blacks to have
the priesthood only blacks, which is it's kind of crazy.
You asked me the question, and I knew, but it's
kind of sickening to say, like it's only black people.
It's only like exclusively black people.
Speaker 2 (18:15):
Okay.
Speaker 1 (18:15):
So the first Presidency letter in nineteen forty nine, this
is an excerpt from it, the position of the Church
regarding the Negro which we'll give them a pass on.
That was probably a culturally acceptable term at the time,
maybe understood when another doctrine of the Church is kept
(18:36):
in mind, namely, the conduct of spirits in the pre
mortal existence has some determining effect on the conditions and
circumstances under which these spirits take on mortality. And while
the details of this principle have not been made known,
(18:57):
the morality is a privt that is given to those
who maintain their first estate. Oh my gosh, I'm gonna
have to get in the gobbly goook. I'm sorry, die,
And that the worth of the privilege is so great
that the spirits were willing to come to earth and
take on bodies, no matter what the handicap.
Speaker 2 (19:22):
Interesting choice of words.
Speaker 1 (19:24):
Maybe as to the kind of bodies, they are too secure,
And that among the handicaps failure of the right to
enjoy in morale in mortality the blessings of the priesthood
is a handicap which the spirits are willing to assume
in order that they might come to earth. Under this principle,
(19:49):
there is no injustice whatsoever in the deprivation as to
the holding of the priesthood by I would.
Speaker 3 (20:01):
Like to go on records. I am canceling the first
Presidency and all associated canceled.
Speaker 2 (20:13):
I don't know what to do.
Speaker 3 (20:14):
You feel like? Do you feel dirty having read that?
Because I do.
Speaker 1 (20:20):
Just listening to you, I'm can we can I get can?
I just kind of help with the terminology.
Speaker 3 (20:29):
Yes, because it just looks pretty bad, but you're gonna
make it sound worse, so go ahead.
Speaker 2 (20:34):
Okay.
Speaker 1 (20:34):
So the Mormons believe in a pre mortal existence before
we came to earth.
Speaker 3 (20:40):
Yeah, you were in spirit form waiting for a body
to be born into Yes.
Speaker 1 (20:45):
So they would use like Jeremiah one to five. I
believe that's in preaching my Gospel, which it says before
I formed, before I formed THEE in the belly, I
knew THEE and I sanctified THEE a prophet. So that
would be maybe a scripture that they would use to
justify this pre mortal existence that existed. Okay, and we
(21:06):
all made this. So there are three parts in what
they would consider to be the war in heaven. There
were the good and valiant. And I'm gonna throw out
because this is what this statement is saying.
Speaker 3 (21:23):
Non black, Yeah, okay, yeah.
Speaker 2 (21:26):
You said white?
Speaker 1 (21:27):
Should I throw it? Should I do a Southern accent?
Speaker 3 (21:30):
White? The whiter the better it is how it sounds.
But I'm curious how Indian or Asian or how nobody
else lives in the in this canceled category.
Speaker 1 (21:43):
This cant well, okay, but let's talk about why, and
this is the this is the under this principle, there
is no injustice whatsoever in the deprivation of holding.
Speaker 3 (21:53):
They got a choice that they would go on this
handicapped body.
Speaker 1 (21:57):
So this is kind of a and I think there
are quotes on this. There are the fence sitters. That
was what was said, man. I wish I had the quote.
But it's pretty much like in the pre mortal existence,
there was the people who chose to follow Jesus, there
were the people who chose to follow Satan, and then
(22:21):
there was a third part that were kind of in
the middle. And they're saying that those people who were
kind of like in the middle were black people in
this mortal existence. I've heard them called fence sitters before.
I wish I had the quote on that. And so
(22:45):
because of that, because of their pre mortal existence, they
are given according to the First Presidency in nineteen forty nine,
they were given a handicap, which would mean that they
would not be able to hold the priestthood.
Speaker 3 (23:05):
And the way that we know who they are is
by what color their skin is.
Speaker 1 (23:11):
Yes, is anyone right now thinking of the song follow
the Profit, Follow the prof because I'm like nope, I
am not following the prophet at this moment.
Speaker 3 (23:30):
Can I ask an honest question, yes, were you aware
of this? I was as you were growing up and
serving your mission or I guess maybe you haven't got
that far, Like they're gonna start undoing this a little
bit when they get into the late seventies, and so
maybe that made it feel better.
Speaker 1 (23:49):
Yeah, I mean, it's this is the way I feel
about like race. And maybe I'm the wrong person to
ask on this, but like it's not my own personal
struggle with this, right, Like I think if I were
black and I was growing up in the church, I
think I would have had like a more I would
have dug into it a little bit deeper. But I'm
(24:10):
just kind of like, oh, they didn't have it before
and they have it now, Like, oh, that's kind of interesting.
And I know that might sound really bad.
Speaker 2 (24:20):
For some people, and I don't.
Speaker 3 (24:22):
It's honest, that's honest. That is probably an honest If
most people who don't haven't struggled with racism grow or
you know, being the the on the wrong end of
racism probably lived a fairly unaware life. That's that's probably
pretty honest.
Speaker 1 (24:40):
Yeah, And I think also what might have kind of
burned for me growing up and where I grew up,
there was actually a black family that went to our
ward building, which I don't think is super common. I
mean even in the and in the Northwest, there really
aren't that many African American people, Like if we're talking
(25:00):
about as a percentage of our population, it's really not
a high population.
Speaker 2 (25:05):
And so.
Speaker 1 (25:08):
I I but we had someone in our in our
not an award, but in the ward next to us
that I went to high school with. She was we
actually dated for quite some time in high school. And
so I think for me it was just kind of like, oh, yeah,
like we have black people that go to our church,
(25:28):
and so I never really like and I wanted to
not believe that there was racism in our church, right,
Like who wants to be like, yeah, I want to
find out this really kind of gnarly thing.
Speaker 2 (25:41):
I don't.
Speaker 1 (25:41):
I don't think people are like actively seeking that seeking
that out. So yeah, I just I think it's a
I think it's really interesting growing up in it where
you're just like, I don't know, does this exist? Did
it exist? It doesn't exist really in my era at all,
Like I wouldn't say there was any overt or racism
(26:03):
that like I personally witnessed, but this seems to be
pretty racist. Like if you told me that first quote
from Brigham Young was like from like the Proud Boys
or the Aryan Rape Nation or like some you know,
all all right Hitler group, I'd just be like, yeah,
(26:25):
I mean, the shoe kind of fits. But if you're
telling me it's from like the second prophet of the Church,
I'm just kind of like like it doesn't even sit
well with me as an ex Mormon and as a
direct descendant, I'm just kind of like, oh, like that's
really that's really icky. Okay, let's get into the second one.
(26:46):
So this is the first Presidency letter in nineteen sixty nine.
Our living Prophet, President David O. McKay has said this
the seemingly seemingly discrimination by the church towards Negroes. So
this is one year after, like just to give some
context to this, this is one year after Martin Luther
King's assassination. Right, we're kind of into this you know,
(27:07):
civil rights movement, right, like like we're thinking, you know,
there's actually a lot going on in the United States
as far as civil rights is concerned. So let me
start this. Our living prophet, President David O. McKay has
said the seemingly discrimination by the church towards the Negroes
is not something which originated with man, but goes back
(27:32):
into the beginning with God. See, we're not to blame.
Speaker 2 (27:37):
It's God's fault.
Speaker 1 (27:40):
Revelation assures that this plan and to dates man's mortal existence,
extending back to man's pre existing state. Dig Can you
read that last line because it's.
Speaker 2 (27:55):
Cut off for me.
Speaker 3 (27:57):
President McKay has also said sometime in God Odd's eternal plan,
the negro will be given the right to hold the priesthood.
Speaker 1 (28:06):
Okay, so they're softening a little bit.
Speaker 2 (28:10):
I think.
Speaker 1 (28:10):
I think this is like I've painted myself into a
corner and God's a pretty good fall guy. So and
you know, he's the one who screwed this up in there,
you know, like he's the his plan. This isn't my plan,
this is his plan, which I think is kind of interesting.
(28:34):
They're probably getting a lot of heat in nineteen sixty nine,
and I hope so yeah, like from a lot of members. Uh,
and so they're having to kind of deal with that.
I do think it's always interesting and if you you'll
notice this common thread. And like Mormonism, when the when
the prophets start to like throw God under the bus,
(28:55):
which they happen to do from time to time, you
know that something's about to because they're like at their
last last end, like.
Speaker 2 (29:02):
Don't look at me, it's God's fault, all right, So
let's go on.
Speaker 1 (29:08):
And so we've kind of talked about kind of this
maybe unhappy chapter, right, I think it's really important to
like just look at this, that this is what existed
in a church led by prophets of God. I put
that in air quotes for those of you listening to
this in a different medium and maybe not looking at
(29:31):
dian I on on you know YouTube. But I love
how when something that is kind of unsavory and gnarly
is happening, there's something beautiful happening on the other side, right,
(29:52):
Like that's kind of the way that God works, right.
Speaker 2 (29:55):
Yeah, it's not just like, oh yeah, there's.
Speaker 1 (29:58):
This group that's like or and I'm not even talking
about like just Mormonism, right.
Speaker 3 (30:04):
No, it could be like in the midst of the
death of a loved one, a baby is born, there's
like the beauty that comes in the midst of the difficulty.
Speaker 1 (30:12):
Yeah, and I think it could also be like there
there can be this beautiful movement and in the kind
of charismatic which we are come on give the glory
to God. There was there was a movement that was happening,
and I think it's really important to talk about this.
(30:33):
And it was led by somebody who is black, which
is kind of kind of cool and I think kind
of hints to God and so die. You are familiar
with William Seymour.
Speaker 3 (30:46):
I am somebody.
Speaker 1 (30:48):
Yeah, he is somebody that I am not familiar with.
Coming from a Mormon background, I honestly had no idea
who he is. The only reference I had to him
is this Azusa Is I'm not saying that, right, yep,
Azusa Street Revival. I had heard about this being, you know,
(31:08):
kind of a transplant into this charismatic movement. Do you
want to talk about William Seymour? Do you want to
talk about what happened with him? Or maybe I can
share my knowledge?
Speaker 3 (31:21):
And yeah, I mean I I have. I have read
quite a bit about him, but not recently, so off
the top of my head, African American preacher, I know
that he studied under Charles Parham, who was a white preacher,
but he was invited to come to La, which the
(31:44):
meeting location was on Azusa Street in LA I think
he might have been invited for an extended period of time,
like maybe even a month to preach, and it just
sort of and hit. Specifically preached on a lot was
baptism in the Holy Spirit like that you referred to
(32:04):
it as Pentecostalism, but this very a live relationship with
the Lord, and it took off. It got to the
point where things I've read over the years, you know,
people would come in the middle of the day and
line up outside to be able to go inside, and
the fire department kept getting called because it looked like
(32:25):
the place was on fire. Is one of the things
they talked about a lot like there were just there
were visible, physical, visible manifestations of a move of God
that was supernatural through his ministry. So that that is
the origin of the denomination that I have my ministerial
credentials through, which is the Assemblies of God.
Speaker 1 (32:47):
Yeah, okay, so from my so I love that Die,
I love that you're talking about this, you know, God moving,
Come on, I love it. Maybe I'll talk about it,
maybe just from a statistical perspective. So we'll talk about
William J. Seymour, who is black, right, thirty four year
(33:10):
old son of free slaves. So his parents were freed
slaves on April ninth of nineteen o six. So just
to give perspective, Mormons were giving the priesthood to black
members seventy what would that be, seventy two years later.
(33:33):
He was kind of the preacher who started Diasuza Street revivals.
This is in the middle of the Jim Crow era, right,
so we have to like put that in perspective. We're
talking segregation. We're talking people, you know, not using the
same drinking fountains and not using the same toilets, and
you know, bus segregation, school segregate right, right, We're talking
(33:56):
about this whole segregated era. That's that's when this revived
is happening.
Speaker 2 (34:01):
Come on, that's cool.
Speaker 3 (34:02):
Yep.
Speaker 1 (34:03):
So it started in April and then by mid May
it had about fifteen hundred people at it. So you know,
a month later it had fifteen hundred people. These were
interracial gatherings, women leading services, women leading services.
Speaker 3 (34:22):
Yep, come on, here we are that's a whole nother
arm we could explore here.
Speaker 1 (34:28):
One hundred years later, still in the Mormon Church, women
are not leading services.
Speaker 3 (34:33):
I was struggling to lead in other places too.
Speaker 2 (34:36):
There you go.
Speaker 1 (34:37):
So fourteen years after getting their rights to vote, women
are leading services in these interracial gatherings. It says that
the Student Street Revival lasted until nineteen fifteen, but it
would be the catalyst for the Pentecostal and Charismatic movement.
(34:58):
And this is always kind of a fun statistic for me,
where you can kind of poke a little bit of
fun at the Mormon Church or the Church of Jesus Christ,
the Lattery Saints. Man, it's hard to get that in
one breath. You've really got to push at the end.
But currently there are six hundred and forty four million
(35:19):
Pentecostals and Charismatics, and it is the fastest, actually the
fastest growing form of Christianity.
Speaker 3 (35:29):
It might be one of the only denominations that does
have actual growth. I mean, it's a pretty limp, it
is pretty anyways, continue I don't have statistics on that,
so I probably shouldn't even say it.
Speaker 1 (35:42):
Well, I think it's just interesting to point out that
the Mormon church and die. Maybe I have to give
you some background on this. The Mormon Church claims it's
one of the newest, you know, formed April sixth, eighteen
thirty of the newest churches, and it's also the fastest
(36:03):
growing church in the world or in the United States.
And here we are this one started almost one hundred
years later and is six hundred and forty four million
as opposed to seventeen million. So I don't know. Maybe
the Mormon Church is right and the way it does math,
(36:24):
I don't know. So anyways, I think it's interesting that.
Speaker 2 (36:31):
I shouldn't been so starky.
Speaker 1 (36:32):
It's interesting that you have this this movement that's started
by someone who's black, and then you have kind of
these let's just be honest, old white dudes being like, you.
Speaker 2 (36:43):
Guys aren't worthy of the priesthood.
Speaker 1 (36:46):
I just think there's just some interesting dichotomy in that
right of like, well, God's kind of determining who is worthy,
and it is creating a huge movement that is growing
to fill the whole earth.
Speaker 2 (37:02):
There you go all quote Daniel on that one.
Speaker 1 (37:04):
And so I think it's just a really a really
interesting thing to kind of point out in this Okay,
we got to go positive. Those those first few slides
are like so sicky, Like I'm just like, how do
I even come back from this? Like it's just so gross. Okay,
I'll tell you how we come back. Okay, guys, well
(37:26):
maybe maybe we'll go back to the bad the bad thing.
I just think it's important to think about if we
were teleported back to nineteen seventy seven, and the catalyst
for this episode is not was not really for me
to talk about blacks in the priesthood. That's not really
like something I am super you know, I've super read about.
But I think it's important to teleport ourselves back to
(37:49):
nineteen seventy seven and what was shaping members of the
church's vision of black people, like, what was shaping their
theology towards towards people of color. I won't even say
people of color. We can't say that it's literally black people, right,
(38:11):
the prophet, right, the lens that the prophet has, that
that human here on earth, as that is how you
see a race, that is what's determining how you feel
about someone, which I think is pretty crazy, right, And
(38:37):
so you have this time in your life, like if
I were a member of the church in nineteen seventy
seven where I'm adamantly defending the prophet of the church
that he speaks for God, that he's this person that
And I've done that as a member of the church,
not on this issue, but on other issues. I've been like, well,
I follow the prophet, like I'm going to choose faith
(39:00):
over these other things. And I think that's really troubling
because we're putting our faith in Man and this, Like,
I think that's just super troubling just from the onset.
It's like, DII, if you told me something really troubling,
I'm not going to answer anything here because anything that
(39:21):
cans weight on this. What should be the response of
somebody in your congregation, Like, what should be the response if.
Speaker 2 (39:28):
You were like, hey, I believe.
Speaker 1 (39:32):
I don't even want to say something along these lines,
and you say it from the pulpit and you believe it,
like me, as somebody who is in your congregation, what
is it that I should say back to you? Or
should I say nothing and just follow you blindly?
Speaker 2 (39:50):
Right?
Speaker 3 (39:50):
I mean, you're making the point without even having to
answer that question. I hope people don't follow blindly, but
I know that all over the world people follow blindly.
Speaker 2 (40:02):
Okay, what does and what does healthy look like? Though?
Speaker 3 (40:09):
Well, I mean, are you actually asking me?
Speaker 2 (40:12):
I'm actually asking you because you go, Okay, I'm gonna
give a scenario.
Speaker 3 (40:18):
What if I said, I believe a you know, to
be a Christian you have to cut off your right
pinky finger like something just ridiculous. Yes, I hope that
we don't have Yeah, I hope we don't have a
lineup of people that are blindly saying yes, amen. I
hope someone says, why where is that? Where are you
(40:39):
getting this idea from? And I've said this before on
this podcast. If we don't have a basis for our
belief system, we're in big trouble because we're just following
whatever someone in charge thinks is the right thing. And
that could change on a day to day basis, it
could change on an hour to hour basis. So for us,
(41:00):
that is the Bible. But that goes this also goes
back to a previous podcast. If we don't understand the
historicity of the Bible or the cultural context, or you know,
if we don't have a Bible at all to base
our belief system on, we're just making stuff up as
we go along. So I hope that somebody in my
church or in my relationship circle would say that sounds
(41:23):
pretty wild. Can you tell me where this is coming
from and why you're expecting other people to do this?
And can you show me where this is in the Bible,
because that's our standard that we live by.
Speaker 2 (41:34):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (41:35):
Yeah, and that's what a healthy environment looks like. Like
I think for a lot of Mormons, and it was
kind of this way for me coming out of Mormonism,
Like I wouldn't think to come up and have even
that dialogue with you. Yeah, Like that would not be
Like if you said something from the pulpit that like
maybe was uncomfortable for me, I would just I would
(41:59):
be like, well tough, Like I better get over it
because I'm following my spiritual leader.
Speaker 2 (42:05):
I'm following who.
Speaker 3 (42:06):
Hears directly from God and tells me what I'm supposed
to do.
Speaker 2 (42:11):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (42:11):
It's just way too much power for any human.
Speaker 2 (42:16):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (42:16):
And I see so many ex Mormons who are like
mad and they're like gosh, how could God do this?
Speaker 2 (42:22):
And it's like, man, you're kind of missing it.
Speaker 1 (42:24):
Yeah, like you're missing that it's not God, Like you're
missing that it's just some wa yahoo going off the handle.
Speaker 3 (42:33):
No, that's the ultimate trump card. If I if I
that's like me playing an ace, you know, like if
I say, well, that's what God said, and that is
exactly how you manipulate people. I'm just going to use
the word manipulate. If I use and I've said this
before to some degree, but if I use my influence
in someone's life to tell them what I say, God
(42:56):
says you should do this, that's me manipulating them.
Speaker 2 (43:01):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (43:01):
And then I look at it from the effect of
let's say you're in nineteen seventy nine Mormon, right, right,
and this has passed this you know, priesthood banne has
(43:21):
gone away. Everyone can have the priesthood. It was through
official declaration too, which I actually believe is the last
revelation that has been received by the church. So you
have these prophets fifty years and you know, I think
Cole Hastings can do a lot better job at prophesying
than something in the last fifty years.
Speaker 2 (43:42):
Maybe I shouldn't throw that in.
Speaker 1 (43:44):
But then you look at nineteen seventy nine and the
confusion that probably ensues on that right, Like you have
a whole group of people that are defending this. Well,
in the pre existence, these people less valiant, therefore they
cannot get the priestthood, and here they are, they're getting it,
(44:06):
but there's still these seeds of doubt. Yeah, on, well
what is going on here? The catalyst for this episode
was this idea that I don't know what I'm talking about,
that me Kai van Lubin, someone who grew up in
the church, or four time great grandfather was Brigham Young,
(44:28):
served in a million callings, whatever, whatever, that I have
no idea what I'm talking about. And I actually think
that's probably true, like anyone who's outside of the church
or who sticks with old theology or that knows like
I know Mormon theology from before twenty twenty, but that
(44:50):
doesn't mean that I know it right now. And when
you're putting your view of God and your view of
theology on a Mormon prophet, you may not actually know
what you're talking about one prophet, then from one prophet.
Speaker 2 (45:08):
To the next.
Speaker 3 (45:09):
Sure that's you being gracious.
Speaker 1 (45:13):
Yeah, And I think that that's a really troubling thing
about your theology, is that it just goes from one
prophet to the next.
Speaker 3 (45:21):
Well, you have a question on this slide. Are you
going to ask this second thing here?
Speaker 2 (45:26):
Go ahead, go ahead and ask it.
Speaker 3 (45:27):
Yeah, okay, because this, I think is really this is
the lynchpin right here is the Mormon God asking me
to defend Mormon racism. So this is a series of
if questions. If the prophet what do you call it?
The prophet? Right? If the prophet is deemed the prophet
(45:50):
by God and hears from God and is the only
one who can speak from God, and the prophets for
years said these particular people are lesser than and cannot
have eternity or all the things that go with it
or you know, be sealed, and all the Mormon talk.
If if that's true, which I think all the prophets
(46:13):
would say, then what kind of a God are you serving?
That he was a racist god until nineteen seventy eight
or seventy nine.
Speaker 1 (46:24):
Yeah, And I think that's where a lot of people
have trouble with faith, right, is they look at this
and they're like, that is messed up.
Speaker 2 (46:34):
Like we can all acknowledge.
Speaker 1 (46:36):
Yeah, that in like to go back to my original
question in nineteen seventy seven, my beautiful daughter, right, if
she were nineteen years old, and the theology of the
church is that her husband couldn't hold the priestthood and couldn't,
you know, take her through the temple, and couldn't be
(46:57):
that that like be sealed to them for time and
all eternity. Is that going to be something I'm going
to encourage. I just I think it's interesting to wrestle
with that and to think about that.
Speaker 3 (47:14):
Well, there's two options. I mean, I'm stating the obvious.
Either the Mormon Church and Mormon leadership double down and
continue to say, Nope, that's what God said. That was
God did not make the way for African people to
attain the priesthood and tell the late seventies, they're either
(47:37):
doubling down on that, or they have to say, we
got that wrong, we heard wrong. We thought we heard
from God, but maybe we actually misheard and put our
own prejudices in the way. The two options, that's it.
Speaker 1 (47:53):
Which they have kind of done. They kind of threw
Brigham Young under the bus in these gospel topic essays.
They kind of did that. But man, if you do that,
you're cutting off your nose. Just bite your face.
Speaker 3 (48:09):
Well, and nobody, nobody spoke up, Nobody spoke up over
I mean, how many how many profits have there been since?
Bring them me on?
Speaker 2 (48:18):
Oh? Yeah?
Speaker 1 (48:19):
And I think people did speak up, but they were evil,
wicked apostates, right, that made it worse. They're just these evil,
awful people. Hey, maybe that's how I'm viewed right now.
Speaker 2 (48:39):
Who knows.
Speaker 3 (48:41):
So I feel like, wait, I just want to stick
something in there. And you didn't prep me for this conversation.
So if I'm taking you off where you wanted to go,
I'm so sorry. But I really our audience is probably
or most likely not people currently in the Mormon Church
(49:03):
that we're trying to talk out of it. I understand that.
But I think what we are trying to do is
look backwards and say, look where we and and that's
not me. I'm not a former Mormon, but look where
we former Mormons followed a man or a human man,
a white human man, and let him do our thinking
(49:29):
for us. And that's we've maybe now, in our hurt,
you know, blamed God or blamed the church and lumped
it all in together. But we have to take some
responsibility that we let someone else do our thinking for us.
Is that a fair statement?
Speaker 2 (49:47):
Yeah?
Speaker 1 (49:48):
I I think it's be into you so much though,
that the prophet will never lead you astray.
Speaker 2 (49:55):
That like.
Speaker 1 (49:57):
This is kind of a Christianity Mormonism battle, okay, Like
in Christianity, if a pastor goes off and does some
crazy thing, you're like, this isn't a good fit for me.
Like that's wired into Christianity.
Speaker 3 (50:17):
Maybe too much, because people will just pick up and go, Yeah,
my pastor told me that I should be serving. I
don't like that. I'm going to go to a different church.
Speaker 2 (50:25):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (50:26):
Yeah, my pastor told me like I should be plugged
in here. And I'm like yeah, man, but I think
it's like but so that's one end of the spectrum.
The other end of the spectrum is, dude, this doesn't.
Speaker 2 (50:40):
Sit right with me.
Speaker 1 (50:42):
Yeah, and the church saying that kind of sounds.
Speaker 2 (50:47):
Like a you problem.
Speaker 1 (50:48):
Yeah, Like racism doesn't sit well with me. You're probably
not following the prophet. You're probably in a state of apostas, right,
And I'm just kind of like like, and I know
that that's so different, Like I don't even know how
to convey this in a way that is like giving
(51:11):
it credit, but.
Speaker 2 (51:14):
That's really the way it is.
Speaker 1 (51:17):
Like if if if a pastor down the street said, hey,
sign your house over to me as an asset of
the church, Right, I'd be like, no, Like that's non biblical.
Speaker 3 (51:32):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (51:33):
When Joseph Smith asked people to consecrate everything that they
had and give and put all of the assets that
they had into the Church's name in whatever eighteen thirties,
the people who did it were righteous, they were holy,
they were true followers, they were you know, going to
(51:55):
be exalted, and the people who didn't were wicked, evil apostates.
And that's how the Church tells history, and so you
have to kind of you have to have that perspective,
like those people who gave everything that they had, like
sign their house over to the church, are glorified and
glamorized in this and are acting in faith, and the
(52:19):
other people who are thinking about this critically are demonized
and are.
Speaker 3 (52:25):
And that's a twisting even of like the early Church
in the Book of Acts, people willingly shared what they
had with each other. But it becomes manipulative when it
is either outright told you must do this, or even
one kind of person is praised and the other is
(52:45):
you know, segregated out or excommunicated. You're an apostate because
you're not willing to do this. That is that's it's
just so manipulative.
Speaker 2 (52:55):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (52:55):
The example that comes to me, and we're kind of
going down a bunny trail, but I think it's an
interesting discussion is Thomas B. Marsh. And for those of
you who kind of know this, hey, you guys didn't
change the Gospel doctrine lessons for like thirty years. So
I know this story by heart because I heard it
for multiple years in multiple years every four years.
Speaker 2 (53:17):
But Thomas B.
Speaker 1 (53:17):
Marsh, his wife did not want to give the cream.
If you guys remember that story from so milk, you know,
and they separate the cream from I don't really know
that much about this, but I know they separate the
cream and the milk and then you can make butter.
While she was holding back the butter and then somebody
from the church told her, you need to give it
to me. She got offended and Thomas B. Marsh left
(53:40):
the church. That is such a whitewashed version of history.
But it shows that like anything that is not that
you are not freely giving on like that. And Marsh
was at least in the first presidency. Maybe korm of
the twelve at the time that he left, and they're
like he's like demonized as this like thin skinned, can't
(54:02):
take correction, isn't willing to give everything to the church,
And that is be into you as a Mormon, right,
Like that is a and it's really not seen on
the Christian side, Like I just I want to make
that very clear, like in a healthy Christian church, Like
(54:24):
it's like, oh, you want to give okay, whatever, Like
we're not going to do tithing settlement. We're not going
to come and say are you being honest with this,
We're not going to guilt you. You want to give
your time? Great, Oh, this isn't a season that works
for you to give your time, okay, like you have
kids or you aren't feeling it, or you need something else,
(54:44):
Like there isn't this like oh you're just like a
super selfish person. Oh okay, cool, you know the passive
aggressive Mormon view. Okay, so let's get back into die.
We went way off on this little giatrape here, but
we're going to get back to it. I think it's
really important to get back into this idea of like
(55:09):
church history in the Mormon Church as being a burden.
Speaker 2 (55:16):
And I think that if you let go of.
Speaker 1 (55:22):
That burden that you felt before, right, Like, I think
that defending Mormon racism is a burden, and the fact
that it existed and that it was pushed for, you know,
over one hundred years. I think that's a burden that
really isn't isn't and shouldn't be yours. This beautiful thing
(55:46):
about me leaving that Mormon life behind and just following
Jesus is it becomes a lot more simple. Jesus said,
take my yoke upon you and learn of me, for
I'm meek and lonely of heart. Right, and I will
give you rest right that burden, that past burden that
(56:09):
you have. Once that's taken away from you, you can
have rest.
Speaker 3 (56:15):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (56:15):
Right. I love the story of Elijah and Elisha, the
Calling of Elishah where and I probably won't read this,
I'll probably summarize this story. But Elisha is a farmer
and he's out there right he's staring at the butt
of a ox plowing the fields, running, you know, running
(56:38):
a plow, and he was called by Elijah the prophet.
He like threw a coat at him, something along those lines,
and calls him into the ministry. Elisha decides to follow,
(56:58):
and he not only like casually says I'm going to follow.
He takes all of his stuff from his past life
and he burns it. He burns the cows. He has
a big barbecue, and he burns his plow, and he says,
all of these burdens that I had in my past
(57:22):
are gone, and I am following the One True God
from here on out. And so that's kind of the
invitation that I have for people who are maybe stuck
with this and they're wrestling with this, burn.
Speaker 2 (57:45):
That burden of the past.
Speaker 1 (57:47):
Amen, leave that behind and take up this new life
that you can have through Jesus, all of the old
stuff stripped away.
Speaker 3 (58:02):
Right.
Speaker 1 (58:04):
I always I always love the song shake up the ground.
Speaker 3 (58:09):
Right for all religion.
Speaker 1 (58:12):
Yeah, and shake up the ground for all my religion,
break down the walls of all my traditions, because your
way is better.
Speaker 2 (58:22):
Right. And this old.
Speaker 1 (58:24):
Religion that that you were a part of, that maybe
you were born into or you converted, to put that
away and take up a new way in Jesus, a
way where you don't have to defend the actions of
racist men, where you don't have to like have that
(58:45):
and there are so many other things. This is just
one of those things where you can be you know,
renewed in Christ.
Speaker 3 (58:53):
So to that, I say, amen.
Speaker 1 (58:57):
Amen, my friend say well, if you guys are willing, willing,
if you guys are interested in reaching out to us,
feel free to contact us at Jesus for Mormons at
gmail dot com.
Speaker 3 (59:14):
And if you're willing, please subscribe, like and share this
podcast with someone else.
Speaker 1 (59:22):
Beautiful. I love that, you know, it really helps the channel.
Our channel is doing super well. It really helps if
you guys do that. Die. I want to publicly say
you are awesome and I really appreciate you being on
this podcast with me. I am like all over the
place and you are a constant and so I really
(59:44):
really I feel like a.
Speaker 3 (59:45):
Hot mess sometimes. So you're very kind and I love
that you keep waving your venture pin at the camera.
Speaker 1 (59:53):
Two thousand miles away and I'm come on, that's my
home church. For those of you who are in the
Seattle area, you can go to any of their campuses
and enjoy that. All right, Well, we love you guys,
and yeah, until next time.
If the eternal salvation of your children was based on
them marrying someone who was black, would you encourage them
to do it?
Speaker 2 (00:12):
Hi?
Speaker 1 (00:13):
I am Kai van Lubin and this is Jesus for Mormons,
and I am joined by my lovely co host Iabeels.
Speaker 3 (00:22):
Hello.
Speaker 2 (00:23):
Hello, All right, well here we are die.
Speaker 1 (00:26):
We're starting with maybe a little bit of controversy to
start our episode, so why don't we just get right
into it. So we are going to read this quote
by Brigham Young. You would think that it would be
like a white supremacist like you think it'd be like
the Proud Boys who made this statement, But no, it
(00:48):
was the second prophet of the Mormon Church, Brigham Young,
and it says, shall I tell you the law of
God in regard to the af Can race. If the
white man, who belongs to the Chosen Seed mixes his
blood with the seed of Cain, the penalty under the
(01:12):
law of God is death on the spot. This will
always be So.
Speaker 4 (01:24):
Break them on, so that people really know that you
do not feed me these things ahead of time.
Speaker 3 (01:43):
I have no words. How do you How do you
look at people knowing? How what do they say about this?
Do people ask about this?
Speaker 1 (01:53):
So this is actually a quote that I read it
funny enough, I read it on a Mormon apoll elegenics website.
I read like part of the quote and I was like,
that's not a real quote. Like this just isn't real,
you know when you read something and you're like, nah,
like that's like taken out of context, and you know,
(02:16):
people's influence, like people who really hate the church are
pulling this out. And then I read the full quote
and I was like, oh, and he goes he goes on.
This is like the summer. You know, this is like
just a snippet from that from that talk, but it's
so like just gnarly. And then I put I think
(02:37):
it's interesting to I also put for those of you
watching this on YouTube, I put a picture of a
you know, a white wife, a black husband, and then
their kids, right, you know, mixed kids or whatever. And
I think it just kind of shows like this just
stark reality and they're happy, you know, it's very happy,
(02:58):
beautiful family. And I think it shows just like this
stark reality between this person who's believed to be the
prophet of God in you know, the mid eighteen hundreds
and then like what like a beautiful family looks like right,
and these two, these two different things.
Speaker 3 (03:18):
You're going to have to help me out here. I
need I need a little more information. It is this?
How hard was this to find? Did people actually die
on the spot? Give me? Give me some where? Where
is this? And how long was it peddled to people?
Speaker 1 (03:37):
Okay, so let's do a little bit of a history lesson.
Are you ready for this one? Die?
Speaker 2 (03:41):
You're kind of teeing me up without that, I am.
Speaker 3 (03:43):
I am ready for this one.
Speaker 2 (03:45):
Okay.
Speaker 1 (03:45):
So this whole idea of blacks in the priesthood, so
Joseph Smith was kind of okay with blacks in the priesthood.
So the priesthood is that, by Mormon definition, is the
power and authority delegated to ma'am to act for God.
So you would need the priesthood to like baptize or
(04:06):
to marry people on the temple, or to give the
gift of the Holy Ghost, or to administer the church,
like to be a bishop or something like that. Right,
So Joseph Smith was actually like kind of cool with this,
and he ordained a few people to the priesthood, but
(04:26):
then he died. Brigham Young kind of took over. We
could talk about the succession, but when I say take over,
I think that's a really light way to put it.
He hostily took over the church, excommunicating people rising to power. Whatever. Sorry,
I'll go down a little rabbit trail there, takes over
(04:49):
the church. And so then from eighteen fifty two it's
a little fuzzy. So let's just say the mid eighteen fifties,
the eighteen fifties. He there is no one else ordained
to be a given the priesthood in the church.
Speaker 2 (05:06):
Okay, okay, Now you might.
Speaker 1 (05:09):
Say, like priesthood, like what does that really mean and
what does that entail? So in order to be in
the Highest Kingdom in the Mormon Church, you have to
have the priesthood, right, so you need to be sealed
to your family for time and all eternity.
Speaker 3 (05:29):
So the highest kingdom after death after death.
Speaker 1 (05:32):
Yeah, so I mean in the Christian Like to put
this in a Christian context, that's like salvation Like.
Speaker 3 (05:40):
This, right, you can't go to heaven if you are
If you are I mean the color.
Speaker 1 (05:45):
Of skin, yes, to really simplify it, if you are black,
you are not like going to be in the Highest
Kingdom in heaven.
Speaker 3 (05:56):
What if you're not black but brown? What does this
do for other races? Or am I totally off track?
Speaker 4 (06:03):
No?
Speaker 1 (06:04):
You can. So if you're everything but black, you're good.
Speaker 3 (06:10):
What why we can?
Speaker 1 (06:13):
I think I actually have it in the next slide.
Oh come on, I kind of talk about that. This
is like and even I didn't know that, Like I
was like, I didn't really think about the implications. Like
I was like, oh, yeah, they banned blacks in the priesthood.
Speaker 3 (06:26):
Wait, hypothetically, now we have ancestry dot com. So do
you have to be a part of Mormon priesthood? Do
you have to show your your ancestry? Do you have
to be able to show your genealogy? Because what if
you become a part of the priest or you get
sealed to your family or whatever, and then you do
ancestry dot com and you find out that you are
(06:47):
four percent African? Are you out? Because that's what that said.
Speaker 1 (06:52):
Well, they didn't have ancestry dot com in nineteen seventy eight. Yeah,
shout out our sponsor ancestry dot com. I'm just kidding, weird,
they did not have that in nineteen seventy eight. They
I'm such a goofball. They didn't have it in nineteen
seventy eight, so you wouldn't know. But there was some
(07:13):
weird stuff. Gosh, I don't really have it here. It's
very sensationalized. But there was like a lady who was
who was married to a black man before got divorced
but had black children and then was getting married to
a white guy and the church refused sealing them together
(07:34):
because she had half black children.
Speaker 3 (07:39):
I just want to know. The Seed of Cain part
was kind of weird for me too. I'm really curious
where that came from.
Speaker 1 (07:45):
But go, yeah, go ahead, yeah, I have some official declarations.
I think they're h next slide couple slides from them.
So you couldn't receive your endowment, so that means like
to be exalted, like this gift from God where you
go pretty much you couldn't go through the temple at all. Okay,
you couldn't hold any significant church calling, so you couldn't
(08:06):
be like a bishop or an elder scorn president or
and they kind of lax that towards the end and
they let people be presidents of like auxiliaries, like you
could have a Release Society president, which would be like women,
the women's society, right, So there were all of these
(08:26):
restrictions that existed, and I think it kind of and
I'm just going to tell you straight up. For me,
somebody who I honestly love uncomfortable conversations, I think it's
something that I learned as a missionary for the Church
of Jesus Christ of Latter day Saints. You got to
put that in there. I really enjoy uncomfortable. And as
(08:50):
I thought about this, there's really two ends of the
spectrum that you can talk about race in general in
twenty twenty five. You can have this idea that, like,
you want a virtue signal, and oh, these are the
worst people on the planet, how could they ever do
such a thing?
Speaker 2 (09:08):
Right?
Speaker 1 (09:09):
That's one end of the of the spectrum. And then
there's this other end of the spectrum that is defending
it and talking about how it was culturally acceptable in
that time. And let's explain away all of these things.
For me in this discussion, I'm going to try to
be right down the middle of like what is morally
(09:32):
right and wrong and to not try to explain away
any of this. For those of you who this may
be your first episode listening to this Brigham Young, the
person who made this quote is my four time great grandfather.
I am a direct descendant of him. If there's anyone
(09:55):
who wants to defend the statements of family members, which
he is a family member mine, it would be me.
So I wanted to kind of throw that disclosure in
there before we get too far into this episode, and
hopefully we find this discussion somewhere in the middle. Let's
(10:15):
talk about in the nineteen sixties when kind of the
church was starting to be a little softer on these
race issues, and we have to I think we also
have to throw in what is happening in the United States, right.
We have the civil rights movement led by Martin Luther
King Junior. We have all of these you know, we
(10:36):
have the women's suffrage movement that's happening where women are
getting the right to vote. All of these things right,
and the Church, the Mormon Church, it will always be
the church to me. Unfortunately, the Mormon Church. In the
nineteen sixties, the church president, who is also the prophet,
began considering opening up a mission in Nigeria.
Speaker 2 (11:00):
Now, this is I think.
Speaker 1 (11:01):
That's actually kind of an interesting thing that they were
considering this considering that probably ninety nine percent of the
people there I would assume are of African descent, it
was decided that only the auxiliaries so die. What I
mean by auxiliaries is Primary Release Society, Young Men's Young
(11:23):
Women's Right would be set up in Nigeria, which would
which could be operated without the priesthood. Nigerian men would
be allowed to pass the sacrament, but white missionaries would
need to bless it. However, the program was canceled after
(11:46):
several members of the corm of the Twelve Apostles objected,
you can't make this stuff up.
Speaker 3 (11:55):
Die, I have no Mormon background in me, and all
I want to do is apologize right now.
Speaker 1 (12:02):
Well, yeah, I mean it's pretty like disgusting, right if
you even think about awful that era, Like, who's on
what side? The Mormon Church would love to think that
it's on the side of We're on the side of
you know, civil rights, and we're on I mean, everyone
(12:23):
wants to be on that side, right in hindsight, everyone
wants to be on the right side of history. Yeah,
and here they are, you know, having the chance to
kind of we could we could do this in Nigeria,
and they decide not to. This is a This was
another interesting thing that I did not know. On April fifth,
(12:48):
So April fourth of nineteen sixty eight, Martin Luther King
was assassinated. And I think that's really important to keep
that in mind. So April fourth, well, as all good
Mormons know, and as die is coming to know, the
first weekend in April is General Conference righth, So April fourth,
(13:12):
Martin Luther King is assassinated. April fifth is General Conference.
Speaker 2 (13:17):
Okay, okay, And.
Speaker 1 (13:21):
In the first session of General Conference, Hugh B. Brown,
who is conducting General Conference, said, at this time, we
expressed deep sorrow and shock at the news of the
passing of a man. He actually didn't say his name,
the passing of a man who dedicated his life to
(13:41):
what he believed to be the welfare of his people.
It is a shocking thing, that is that in this
age such a thing could happen. We pray God's blessing
upon his family, his friends, and the associated with him.
(14:05):
I mean, I think it's an interesting nod to Martin
Luther King.
Speaker 3 (14:09):
Yep.
Speaker 2 (14:10):
And at this same time.
Speaker 3 (14:13):
Like it's a very well crafted statement, at least it
appears that way.
Speaker 2 (14:20):
Yeah, And.
Speaker 1 (14:23):
I guess this is maybe where I get a little
bit like fired up. Yes, you're kind of giving this
token nod.
Speaker 3 (14:31):
No, you crafted it carefully to not actually say anything.
Speaker 1 (14:38):
Yeah, but if you were a full believing Mormon, you
know that this life does not matter. Right, And even
if you're a full believing person in nineteen sixty eight,
you are denying these people eternal families yep, right, yeah,
which is a core belief of your doctrine. Right, you're
(15:03):
denying Like really, you aren't publicly coming out and saying
we deny inner rachel marriage, but you won't let those
people be sealed to each other.
Speaker 3 (15:14):
No, that's that's exactly what I'm saying. He is carefully
crafted a way to dance around this. Yeah.
Speaker 1 (15:22):
Yeah, And I just think it's I wrote on the
title of this for those of you who are watching
on YouTube, it says a nod to MLK, but delusion
of what it meant, Like, yeah, sorry, but disillusion of
what it meant.
Speaker 3 (15:40):
But it is kind of delusional too.
Speaker 2 (15:42):
Yeah. I can't. I can't even read my own words.
Speaker 1 (15:46):
I just think it's really crazy that they're like, oh, yeah, this,
this guy died for what he believes in but yet
we're still denying these I don't even know if i'd
say rights. We're denying these privileges or the priesthood to
people who look just like him, and we're we're also
(16:09):
part of this problem. We haven't changed, you.
Speaker 3 (16:13):
Know, we didn't pull the trigger, but we're we're in
the guilts category.
Speaker 1 (16:20):
Yeah yeah, but you know, they nod to it so
that the people who are who are pro civil rights
are like, yeah, our church gets us, and then they
don't really say anything. Yeah for the people who are like, well,
black shouldn't have the priesthood right, they're trying to kind
of speak out of both sides of their mouth on
(16:42):
this issue, and I think it's I don't really respect it.
If I'm just being honest, I think you say nothing
right if you're still denying these people absolutely of rights
and you you know, I just don't think you say
anything personally. So this is ten years before the priesthood ban. Okay,
(17:06):
so there are some official church letters, and this goes
back to your question of well, why like why are
they doing this? You know, like, why are they why
do they have these feelings about the seed. We're going
to say the seed of Cain Cain, so die Cain Abel.
(17:29):
That's where we're that's what we're talking about here, right,
So Cain slew his brother Abel. Yes, what happens is
the first Presidency issues like letters and these would be
like read from the pulpit, so these would be read
in front of the whole congregation. And they issued two letters,
one in nineteen forty nine and one in nineteen sixty nine.
(17:50):
And these letters kind of explain why they still have
not lifted the priesthood ban or allowed blacks to have
the priesthood only blacks, which is it's kind of crazy.
You asked me the question, and I knew, but it's
kind of sickening to say, like it's only black people.
It's only like exclusively black people.
Speaker 2 (18:15):
Okay.
Speaker 1 (18:15):
So the first Presidency letter in nineteen forty nine, this
is an excerpt from it, the position of the Church
regarding the Negro which we'll give them a pass on.
That was probably a culturally acceptable term at the time,
maybe understood when another doctrine of the Church is kept
(18:36):
in mind, namely, the conduct of spirits in the pre
mortal existence has some determining effect on the conditions and
circumstances under which these spirits take on mortality. And while
the details of this principle have not been made known,
(18:57):
the morality is a privt that is given to those
who maintain their first estate. Oh my gosh, I'm gonna
have to get in the gobbly goook. I'm sorry, die,
And that the worth of the privilege is so great
that the spirits were willing to come to earth and
take on bodies, no matter what the handicap.
Speaker 2 (19:22):
Interesting choice of words.
Speaker 1 (19:24):
Maybe as to the kind of bodies, they are too secure,
And that among the handicaps failure of the right to
enjoy in morale in mortality the blessings of the priesthood
is a handicap which the spirits are willing to assume
in order that they might come to earth. Under this principle,
(19:49):
there is no injustice whatsoever in the deprivation as to
the holding of the priesthood by I would.
Speaker 3 (20:01):
Like to go on records. I am canceling the first
Presidency and all associated canceled.
Speaker 2 (20:13):
I don't know what to do.
Speaker 3 (20:14):
You feel like? Do you feel dirty having read that?
Because I do.
Speaker 1 (20:20):
Just listening to you, I'm can we can I get can?
I just kind of help with the terminology.
Speaker 3 (20:29):
Yes, because it just looks pretty bad, but you're gonna
make it sound worse, so go ahead.
Speaker 2 (20:34):
Okay.
Speaker 1 (20:34):
So the Mormons believe in a pre mortal existence before
we came to earth.
Speaker 3 (20:40):
Yeah, you were in spirit form waiting for a body
to be born into Yes.
Speaker 1 (20:45):
So they would use like Jeremiah one to five. I
believe that's in preaching my Gospel, which it says before
I formed, before I formed THEE in the belly, I
knew THEE and I sanctified THEE a prophet. So that
would be maybe a scripture that they would use to
justify this pre mortal existence that existed. Okay, and we
(21:06):
all made this. So there are three parts in what
they would consider to be the war in heaven. There
were the good and valiant. And I'm gonna throw out
because this is what this statement is saying.
Speaker 3 (21:23):
Non black, Yeah, okay, yeah.
Speaker 2 (21:26):
You said white?
Speaker 1 (21:27):
Should I throw it? Should I do a Southern accent?
Speaker 3 (21:30):
White? The whiter the better it is how it sounds.
But I'm curious how Indian or Asian or how nobody
else lives in the in this canceled category.
Speaker 1 (21:43):
This cant well, okay, but let's talk about why, and
this is the this is the under this principle, there
is no injustice whatsoever in the deprivation of holding.
Speaker 3 (21:53):
They got a choice that they would go on this
handicapped body.
Speaker 1 (21:57):
So this is kind of a and I think there
are quotes on this. There are the fence sitters. That
was what was said, man. I wish I had the quote.
But it's pretty much like in the pre mortal existence,
there was the people who chose to follow Jesus, there
were the people who chose to follow Satan, and then
(22:21):
there was a third part that were kind of in
the middle. And they're saying that those people who were
kind of like in the middle were black people in
this mortal existence. I've heard them called fence sitters before.
I wish I had the quote on that. And so
(22:45):
because of that, because of their pre mortal existence, they
are given according to the First Presidency in nineteen forty nine,
they were given a handicap, which would mean that they
would not be able to hold the priestthood.
Speaker 3 (23:05):
And the way that we know who they are is
by what color their skin is.
Speaker 1 (23:11):
Yes, is anyone right now thinking of the song follow
the Profit, Follow the prof because I'm like nope, I
am not following the prophet at this moment.
Speaker 3 (23:30):
Can I ask an honest question, yes, were you aware
of this? I was as you were growing up and
serving your mission or I guess maybe you haven't got
that far, Like they're gonna start undoing this a little
bit when they get into the late seventies, and so
maybe that made it feel better.
Speaker 1 (23:49):
Yeah, I mean, it's this is the way I feel
about like race. And maybe I'm the wrong person to
ask on this, but like it's not my own personal
struggle with this, right, Like I think if I were
black and I was growing up in the church, I
think I would have had like a more I would
have dug into it a little bit deeper. But I'm
(24:10):
just kind of like, oh, they didn't have it before
and they have it now, Like, oh, that's kind of interesting.
And I know that might sound really bad.
Speaker 2 (24:20):
For some people, and I don't.
Speaker 3 (24:22):
It's honest, that's honest. That is probably an honest If
most people who don't haven't struggled with racism grow or
you know, being the the on the wrong end of
racism probably lived a fairly unaware life. That's that's probably
pretty honest.
Speaker 1 (24:40):
Yeah, And I think also what might have kind of
burned for me growing up and where I grew up,
there was actually a black family that went to our
ward building, which I don't think is super common. I
mean even in the and in the Northwest, there really
aren't that many African American people, Like if we're talking
(25:00):
about as a percentage of our population, it's really not
a high population.
Speaker 2 (25:05):
And so.
Speaker 1 (25:08):
I I but we had someone in our in our
not an award, but in the ward next to us
that I went to high school with. She was we
actually dated for quite some time in high school. And
so I think for me it was just kind of like, oh, yeah,
like we have black people that go to our church,
(25:28):
and so I never really like and I wanted to
not believe that there was racism in our church, right,
Like who wants to be like, yeah, I want to
find out this really kind of gnarly thing.
Speaker 2 (25:41):
I don't.
Speaker 1 (25:41):
I don't think people are like actively seeking that seeking
that out. So yeah, I just I think it's a
I think it's really interesting growing up in it where
you're just like, I don't know, does this exist? Did
it exist? It doesn't exist really in my era at all,
Like I wouldn't say there was any overt or racism
(26:03):
that like I personally witnessed, but this seems to be
pretty racist. Like if you told me that first quote
from Brigham Young was like from like the Proud Boys
or the Aryan Rape Nation or like some you know,
all all right Hitler group, I'd just be like, yeah,
(26:25):
I mean, the shoe kind of fits. But if you're
telling me it's from like the second prophet of the Church,
I'm just kind of like like it doesn't even sit
well with me as an ex Mormon and as a
direct descendant, I'm just kind of like, oh, like that's
really that's really icky. Okay, let's get into the second one.
(26:46):
So this is the first Presidency letter in nineteen sixty nine.
Our living Prophet, President David O. McKay has said this
the seemingly seemingly discrimination by the church towards Negroes. So
this is one year after, like just to give some
context to this, this is one year after Martin Luther
King's assassination. Right, we're kind of into this you know,
(27:07):
civil rights movement, right, like like we're thinking, you know,
there's actually a lot going on in the United States
as far as civil rights is concerned. So let me
start this. Our living prophet, President David O. McKay has
said the seemingly discrimination by the church towards the Negroes
is not something which originated with man, but goes back
(27:32):
into the beginning with God. See, we're not to blame.
Speaker 2 (27:37):
It's God's fault.
Speaker 1 (27:40):
Revelation assures that this plan and to dates man's mortal existence,
extending back to man's pre existing state. Dig Can you
read that last line because it's.
Speaker 2 (27:55):
Cut off for me.
Speaker 3 (27:57):
President McKay has also said sometime in God Odd's eternal plan,
the negro will be given the right to hold the priesthood.
Speaker 1 (28:06):
Okay, so they're softening a little bit.
Speaker 2 (28:10):
I think.
Speaker 1 (28:10):
I think this is like I've painted myself into a
corner and God's a pretty good fall guy. So and
you know, he's the one who screwed this up in there,
you know, like he's the his plan. This isn't my plan,
this is his plan, which I think is kind of interesting.
(28:34):
They're probably getting a lot of heat in nineteen sixty nine,
and I hope so yeah, like from a lot of members. Uh,
and so they're having to kind of deal with that.
I do think it's always interesting and if you you'll
notice this common thread. And like Mormonism, when the when
the prophets start to like throw God under the bus,
(28:55):
which they happen to do from time to time, you
know that something's about to because they're like at their
last last end, like.
Speaker 2 (29:02):
Don't look at me, it's God's fault, all right, So
let's go on.
Speaker 1 (29:08):
And so we've kind of talked about kind of this
maybe unhappy chapter, right, I think it's really important to
like just look at this, that this is what existed
in a church led by prophets of God. I put
that in air quotes for those of you listening to
this in a different medium and maybe not looking at
(29:31):
dian I on on you know YouTube. But I love
how when something that is kind of unsavory and gnarly
is happening, there's something beautiful happening on the other side, right,
(29:52):
Like that's kind of the way that God works, right.
Speaker 2 (29:55):
Yeah, it's not just like, oh yeah, there's.
Speaker 1 (29:58):
This group that's like or and I'm not even talking
about like just Mormonism, right.
Speaker 3 (30:04):
No, it could be like in the midst of the
death of a loved one, a baby is born, there's
like the beauty that comes in the midst of the difficulty.
Speaker 1 (30:12):
Yeah, and I think it could also be like there
there can be this beautiful movement and in the kind
of charismatic which we are come on give the glory
to God. There was there was a movement that was happening,
and I think it's really important to talk about this.
(30:33):
And it was led by somebody who is black, which
is kind of kind of cool and I think kind
of hints to God and so die. You are familiar
with William Seymour.
Speaker 3 (30:46):
I am somebody.
Speaker 1 (30:48):
Yeah, he is somebody that I am not familiar with.
Coming from a Mormon background, I honestly had no idea
who he is. The only reference I had to him
is this Azusa Is I'm not saying that, right, yep,
Azusa Street Revival. I had heard about this being, you know,
(31:08):
kind of a transplant into this charismatic movement. Do you
want to talk about William Seymour? Do you want to
talk about what happened with him? Or maybe I can
share my knowledge?
Speaker 3 (31:21):
And yeah, I mean I I have. I have read
quite a bit about him, but not recently, so off
the top of my head, African American preacher, I know
that he studied under Charles Parham, who was a white preacher,
but he was invited to come to La, which the
(31:44):
meeting location was on Azusa Street in LA I think
he might have been invited for an extended period of time,
like maybe even a month to preach, and it just
sort of and hit. Specifically preached on a lot was
baptism in the Holy Spirit like that you referred to
(32:04):
it as Pentecostalism, but this very a live relationship with
the Lord, and it took off. It got to the
point where things I've read over the years, you know,
people would come in the middle of the day and
line up outside to be able to go inside, and
the fire department kept getting called because it looked like
(32:25):
the place was on fire. Is one of the things
they talked about a lot like there were just there
were visible, physical, visible manifestations of a move of God
that was supernatural through his ministry. So that that is
the origin of the denomination that I have my ministerial
credentials through, which is the Assemblies of God.
Speaker 1 (32:47):
Yeah, okay, so from my so I love that Die,
I love that you're talking about this, you know, God moving,
Come on, I love it. Maybe I'll talk about it,
maybe just from a statistical perspective. So we'll talk about
William J. Seymour, who is black, right, thirty four year
(33:10):
old son of free slaves. So his parents were freed
slaves on April ninth of nineteen o six. So just
to give perspective, Mormons were giving the priesthood to black
members seventy what would that be, seventy two years later.
(33:33):
He was kind of the preacher who started Diasuza Street revivals.
This is in the middle of the Jim Crow era, right,
so we have to like put that in perspective. We're
talking segregation. We're talking people, you know, not using the
same drinking fountains and not using the same toilets, and
you know, bus segregation, school segregate right, right, We're talking
(33:56):
about this whole segregated era. That's that's when this revived
is happening.
Speaker 2 (34:01):
Come on, that's cool.
Speaker 3 (34:02):
Yep.
Speaker 1 (34:03):
So it started in April and then by mid May
it had about fifteen hundred people at it. So you know,
a month later it had fifteen hundred people. These were
interracial gatherings, women leading services, women leading services.
Speaker 3 (34:22):
Yep, come on, here we are that's a whole nother
arm we could explore here.
Speaker 1 (34:28):
One hundred years later, still in the Mormon Church, women
are not leading services.
Speaker 3 (34:33):
I was struggling to lead in other places too.
Speaker 2 (34:36):
There you go.
Speaker 1 (34:37):
So fourteen years after getting their rights to vote, women
are leading services in these interracial gatherings. It says that
the Student Street Revival lasted until nineteen fifteen, but it
would be the catalyst for the Pentecostal and Charismatic movement.
(34:58):
And this is always kind of a fun statistic for me,
where you can kind of poke a little bit of
fun at the Mormon Church or the Church of Jesus Christ,
the Lattery Saints. Man, it's hard to get that in
one breath. You've really got to push at the end.
But currently there are six hundred and forty four million
(35:19):
Pentecostals and Charismatics, and it is the fastest, actually the
fastest growing form of Christianity.
Speaker 3 (35:29):
It might be one of the only denominations that does
have actual growth. I mean, it's a pretty limp, it
is pretty anyways, continue I don't have statistics on that,
so I probably shouldn't even say it.
Speaker 1 (35:42):
Well, I think it's just interesting to point out that
the Mormon church and die. Maybe I have to give
you some background on this. The Mormon Church claims it's
one of the newest, you know, formed April sixth, eighteen
thirty of the newest churches, and it's also the fastest
(36:03):
growing church in the world or in the United States.
And here we are this one started almost one hundred
years later and is six hundred and forty four million
as opposed to seventeen million. So I don't know. Maybe
the Mormon Church is right and the way it does math,
(36:24):
I don't know. So anyways, I think it's interesting that.
Speaker 2 (36:31):
I shouldn't been so starky.
Speaker 1 (36:32):
It's interesting that you have this this movement that's started
by someone who's black, and then you have kind of
these let's just be honest, old white dudes being like, you.
Speaker 2 (36:43):
Guys aren't worthy of the priesthood.
Speaker 1 (36:46):
I just think there's just some interesting dichotomy in that
right of like, well, God's kind of determining who is worthy,
and it is creating a huge movement that is growing
to fill the whole earth.
Speaker 2 (37:02):
There you go all quote Daniel on that one.
Speaker 1 (37:04):
And so I think it's just a really a really
interesting thing to kind of point out in this Okay,
we got to go positive. Those those first few slides
are like so sicky, Like I'm just like, how do
I even come back from this? Like it's just so gross. Okay,
I'll tell you how we come back. Okay, guys, well
(37:26):
maybe maybe we'll go back to the bad the bad thing.
I just think it's important to think about if we
were teleported back to nineteen seventy seven, and the catalyst
for this episode is not was not really for me
to talk about blacks in the priesthood. That's not really
like something I am super you know, I've super read about.
But I think it's important to teleport ourselves back to
(37:49):
nineteen seventy seven and what was shaping members of the
church's vision of black people, like, what was shaping their
theology towards towards people of color. I won't even say
people of color. We can't say that it's literally black people, right,
(38:11):
the prophet, right, the lens that the prophet has, that
that human here on earth, as that is how you
see a race, that is what's determining how you feel
about someone, which I think is pretty crazy, right, And
(38:37):
so you have this time in your life, like if
I were a member of the church in nineteen seventy
seven where I'm adamantly defending the prophet of the church
that he speaks for God, that he's this person that
And I've done that as a member of the church,
not on this issue, but on other issues. I've been like, well,
I follow the prophet, like I'm going to choose faith
(39:00):
over these other things. And I think that's really troubling
because we're putting our faith in Man and this, Like,
I think that's just super troubling just from the onset.
It's like, DII, if you told me something really troubling,
I'm not going to answer anything here because anything that
(39:21):
cans weight on this. What should be the response of
somebody in your congregation, Like, what should be the response if.
Speaker 2 (39:28):
You were like, hey, I believe.
Speaker 1 (39:32):
I don't even want to say something along these lines,
and you say it from the pulpit and you believe it,
like me, as somebody who is in your congregation, what
is it that I should say back to you? Or
should I say nothing and just follow you blindly?
Speaker 2 (39:50):
Right?
Speaker 3 (39:50):
I mean, you're making the point without even having to
answer that question. I hope people don't follow blindly, but
I know that all over the world people follow blindly.
Speaker 2 (40:02):
Okay, what does and what does healthy look like? Though?
Speaker 3 (40:09):
Well, I mean, are you actually asking me?
Speaker 2 (40:12):
I'm actually asking you because you go, Okay, I'm gonna
give a scenario.
Speaker 3 (40:18):
What if I said, I believe a you know, to
be a Christian you have to cut off your right
pinky finger like something just ridiculous. Yes, I hope that
we don't have Yeah, I hope we don't have a
lineup of people that are blindly saying yes, amen. I
hope someone says, why where is that? Where are you
(40:39):
getting this idea from? And I've said this before on
this podcast. If we don't have a basis for our
belief system, we're in big trouble because we're just following
whatever someone in charge thinks is the right thing. And
that could change on a day to day basis, it
could change on an hour to hour basis. So for us,
(41:00):
that is the Bible. But that goes this also goes
back to a previous podcast. If we don't understand the
historicity of the Bible or the cultural context, or you know,
if we don't have a Bible at all to base
our belief system on, we're just making stuff up as
we go along. So I hope that somebody in my
church or in my relationship circle would say that sounds
(41:23):
pretty wild. Can you tell me where this is coming
from and why you're expecting other people to do this?
And can you show me where this is in the Bible,
because that's our standard that we live by.
Speaker 2 (41:34):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (41:35):
Yeah, and that's what a healthy environment looks like. Like
I think for a lot of Mormons, and it was
kind of this way for me coming out of Mormonism,
Like I wouldn't think to come up and have even
that dialogue with you. Yeah, Like that would not be
Like if you said something from the pulpit that like
maybe was uncomfortable for me, I would just I would
(41:59):
be like, well tough, Like I better get over it
because I'm following my spiritual leader.
Speaker 2 (42:05):
I'm following who.
Speaker 3 (42:06):
Hears directly from God and tells me what I'm supposed
to do.
Speaker 2 (42:11):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (42:11):
It's just way too much power for any human.
Speaker 2 (42:16):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (42:16):
And I see so many ex Mormons who are like
mad and they're like gosh, how could God do this?
Speaker 2 (42:22):
And it's like, man, you're kind of missing it.
Speaker 1 (42:24):
Yeah, like you're missing that it's not God, Like you're
missing that it's just some wa yahoo going off the handle.
Speaker 3 (42:33):
No, that's the ultimate trump card. If I if I
that's like me playing an ace, you know, like if
I say, well, that's what God said, and that is
exactly how you manipulate people. I'm just going to use
the word manipulate. If I use and I've said this
before to some degree, but if I use my influence
in someone's life to tell them what I say, God
(42:56):
says you should do this, that's me manipulating them.
Speaker 2 (43:01):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (43:01):
And then I look at it from the effect of
let's say you're in nineteen seventy nine Mormon, right, right,
and this has passed this you know, priesthood banne has
(43:21):
gone away. Everyone can have the priesthood. It was through
official declaration too, which I actually believe is the last
revelation that has been received by the church. So you
have these prophets fifty years and you know, I think
Cole Hastings can do a lot better job at prophesying
than something in the last fifty years.
Speaker 2 (43:42):
Maybe I shouldn't throw that in.
Speaker 1 (43:44):
But then you look at nineteen seventy nine and the
confusion that probably ensues on that right, Like you have
a whole group of people that are defending this. Well,
in the pre existence, these people less valiant, therefore they
cannot get the priestthood, and here they are, they're getting it,
(44:06):
but there's still these seeds of doubt. Yeah, on, well
what is going on here? The catalyst for this episode
was this idea that I don't know what I'm talking about,
that me Kai van Lubin, someone who grew up in
the church, or four time great grandfather was Brigham Young,
(44:28):
served in a million callings, whatever, whatever, that I have
no idea what I'm talking about. And I actually think
that's probably true, like anyone who's outside of the church
or who sticks with old theology or that knows like
I know Mormon theology from before twenty twenty, but that
(44:50):
doesn't mean that I know it right now. And when
you're putting your view of God and your view of
theology on a Mormon prophet, you may not actually know
what you're talking about one prophet, then from one prophet.
Speaker 2 (45:08):
To the next.
Speaker 3 (45:09):
Sure that's you being gracious.
Speaker 1 (45:13):
Yeah, And I think that that's a really troubling thing
about your theology, is that it just goes from one
prophet to the next.
Speaker 3 (45:21):
Well, you have a question on this slide. Are you
going to ask this second thing here?
Speaker 2 (45:26):
Go ahead, go ahead and ask it.
Speaker 3 (45:27):
Yeah, okay, because this, I think is really this is
the lynchpin right here is the Mormon God asking me
to defend Mormon racism. So this is a series of
if questions. If the prophet what do you call it?
The prophet? Right? If the prophet is deemed the prophet
(45:50):
by God and hears from God and is the only
one who can speak from God, and the prophets for
years said these particular people are lesser than and cannot
have eternity or all the things that go with it
or you know, be sealed, and all the Mormon talk.
If if that's true, which I think all the prophets
(46:13):
would say, then what kind of a God are you serving?
That he was a racist god until nineteen seventy eight
or seventy nine.
Speaker 1 (46:24):
Yeah, And I think that's where a lot of people
have trouble with faith, right, is they look at this
and they're like, that is messed up.
Speaker 2 (46:34):
Like we can all acknowledge.
Speaker 1 (46:36):
Yeah, that in like to go back to my original
question in nineteen seventy seven, my beautiful daughter, right, if
she were nineteen years old, and the theology of the
church is that her husband couldn't hold the priestthood and couldn't,
you know, take her through the temple, and couldn't be
(46:57):
that that like be sealed to them for time and
all eternity. Is that going to be something I'm going
to encourage. I just I think it's interesting to wrestle
with that and to think about that.
Speaker 3 (47:14):
Well, there's two options. I mean, I'm stating the obvious.
Either the Mormon Church and Mormon leadership double down and
continue to say, Nope, that's what God said. That was
God did not make the way for African people to
attain the priesthood and tell the late seventies, they're either
(47:37):
doubling down on that, or they have to say, we
got that wrong, we heard wrong. We thought we heard
from God, but maybe we actually misheard and put our
own prejudices in the way. The two options, that's it.
Speaker 1 (47:53):
Which they have kind of done. They kind of threw
Brigham Young under the bus in these gospel topic essays.
They kind of did that. But man, if you do that,
you're cutting off your nose. Just bite your face.
Speaker 3 (48:09):
Well, and nobody, nobody spoke up, Nobody spoke up over
I mean, how many how many profits have there been since?
Bring them me on?
Speaker 2 (48:18):
Oh? Yeah?
Speaker 1 (48:19):
And I think people did speak up, but they were evil,
wicked apostates, right, that made it worse. They're just these evil,
awful people. Hey, maybe that's how I'm viewed right now.
Speaker 2 (48:39):
Who knows.
Speaker 3 (48:41):
So I feel like, wait, I just want to stick
something in there. And you didn't prep me for this conversation.
So if I'm taking you off where you wanted to go,
I'm so sorry. But I really our audience is probably
or most likely not people currently in the Mormon Church
(49:03):
that we're trying to talk out of it. I understand that.
But I think what we are trying to do is
look backwards and say, look where we and and that's
not me. I'm not a former Mormon, but look where
we former Mormons followed a man or a human man,
a white human man, and let him do our thinking
(49:29):
for us. And that's we've maybe now, in our hurt,
you know, blamed God or blamed the church and lumped
it all in together. But we have to take some
responsibility that we let someone else do our thinking for us.
Is that a fair statement?
Speaker 2 (49:47):
Yeah?
Speaker 1 (49:48):
I I think it's be into you so much though,
that the prophet will never lead you astray.
Speaker 2 (49:55):
That like.
Speaker 1 (49:57):
This is kind of a Christianity Mormonism battle, okay, Like
in Christianity, if a pastor goes off and does some
crazy thing, you're like, this isn't a good fit for me.
Like that's wired into Christianity.
Speaker 3 (50:17):
Maybe too much, because people will just pick up and go, Yeah,
my pastor told me that I should be serving. I
don't like that. I'm going to go to a different church.
Speaker 2 (50:25):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (50:26):
Yeah, my pastor told me like I should be plugged
in here. And I'm like yeah, man, but I think
it's like but so that's one end of the spectrum.
The other end of the spectrum is, dude, this doesn't.
Speaker 2 (50:40):
Sit right with me.
Speaker 1 (50:42):
Yeah, and the church saying that kind of sounds.
Speaker 2 (50:47):
Like a you problem.
Speaker 1 (50:48):
Yeah, Like racism doesn't sit well with me. You're probably
not following the prophet. You're probably in a state of apostas, right,
And I'm just kind of like like, and I know
that that's so different, Like I don't even know how
to convey this in a way that is like giving
(51:11):
it credit, but.
Speaker 2 (51:14):
That's really the way it is.
Speaker 1 (51:17):
Like if if if a pastor down the street said, hey,
sign your house over to me as an asset of
the church, Right, I'd be like, no, Like that's non biblical.
Speaker 3 (51:32):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (51:33):
When Joseph Smith asked people to consecrate everything that they
had and give and put all of the assets that
they had into the Church's name in whatever eighteen thirties,
the people who did it were righteous, they were holy,
they were true followers, they were you know, going to
(51:55):
be exalted, and the people who didn't were wicked, evil apostates.
And that's how the Church tells history, and so you
have to kind of you have to have that perspective,
like those people who gave everything that they had, like
sign their house over to the church, are glorified and
glamorized in this and are acting in faith, and the
(52:19):
other people who are thinking about this critically are demonized
and are.
Speaker 3 (52:25):
And that's a twisting even of like the early Church
in the Book of Acts, people willingly shared what they
had with each other. But it becomes manipulative when it
is either outright told you must do this, or even
one kind of person is praised and the other is
(52:45):
you know, segregated out or excommunicated. You're an apostate because
you're not willing to do this. That is that's it's
just so manipulative.
Speaker 2 (52:55):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (52:55):
The example that comes to me, and we're kind of
going down a bunny trail, but I think it's an
interesting discussion is Thomas B. Marsh. And for those of
you who kind of know this, hey, you guys didn't
change the Gospel doctrine lessons for like thirty years. So
I know this story by heart because I heard it
for multiple years in multiple years every four years.
Speaker 2 (53:17):
But Thomas B.
Speaker 1 (53:17):
Marsh, his wife did not want to give the cream.
If you guys remember that story from so milk, you know,
and they separate the cream from I don't really know
that much about this, but I know they separate the
cream and the milk and then you can make butter.
While she was holding back the butter and then somebody
from the church told her, you need to give it
to me. She got offended and Thomas B. Marsh left
(53:40):
the church. That is such a whitewashed version of history.
But it shows that like anything that is not that
you are not freely giving on like that. And Marsh
was at least in the first presidency. Maybe korm of
the twelve at the time that he left, and they're
like he's like demonized as this like thin skinned, can't
(54:02):
take correction, isn't willing to give everything to the church,
And that is be into you as a Mormon, right,
Like that is a and it's really not seen on
the Christian side, Like I just I want to make
that very clear, like in a healthy Christian church, Like
(54:24):
it's like, oh, you want to give okay, whatever, Like
we're not going to do tithing settlement. We're not going
to come and say are you being honest with this,
We're not going to guilt you. You want to give
your time? Great, Oh, this isn't a season that works
for you to give your time, okay, like you have
kids or you aren't feeling it, or you need something else,
(54:44):
Like there isn't this like oh you're just like a
super selfish person. Oh okay, cool, you know the passive
aggressive Mormon view. Okay, so let's get back into die.
We went way off on this little giatrape here, but
we're going to get back to it. I think it's
really important to get back into this idea of like
(55:09):
church history in the Mormon Church as being a burden.
Speaker 2 (55:16):
And I think that if you let go of.
Speaker 1 (55:22):
That burden that you felt before, right, Like, I think
that defending Mormon racism is a burden, and the fact
that it existed and that it was pushed for, you know,
over one hundred years. I think that's a burden that
really isn't isn't and shouldn't be yours. This beautiful thing
(55:46):
about me leaving that Mormon life behind and just following
Jesus is it becomes a lot more simple. Jesus said,
take my yoke upon you and learn of me, for
I'm meek and lonely of heart. Right, and I will
give you rest right that burden, that past burden that
(56:09):
you have. Once that's taken away from you, you can
have rest.
Speaker 3 (56:15):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (56:15):
Right. I love the story of Elijah and Elisha, the
Calling of Elishah where and I probably won't read this,
I'll probably summarize this story. But Elisha is a farmer
and he's out there right he's staring at the butt
of a ox plowing the fields, running, you know, running
(56:38):
a plow, and he was called by Elijah the prophet.
He like threw a coat at him, something along those lines,
and calls him into the ministry. Elisha decides to follow,
(56:58):
and he not only like casually says I'm going to follow.
He takes all of his stuff from his past life
and he burns it. He burns the cows. He has
a big barbecue, and he burns his plow, and he says,
all of these burdens that I had in my past
(57:22):
are gone, and I am following the One True God
from here on out. And so that's kind of the
invitation that I have for people who are maybe stuck
with this and they're wrestling with this, burn.
Speaker 2 (57:45):
That burden of the past.
Speaker 1 (57:47):
Amen, leave that behind and take up this new life
that you can have through Jesus, all of the old
stuff stripped away.
Speaker 3 (58:02):
Right.
Speaker 1 (58:04):
I always I always love the song shake up the ground.
Speaker 3 (58:09):
Right for all religion.
Speaker 1 (58:12):
Yeah, and shake up the ground for all my religion,
break down the walls of all my traditions, because your
way is better.
Speaker 2 (58:22):
Right. And this old.
Speaker 1 (58:24):
Religion that that you were a part of, that maybe
you were born into or you converted, to put that
away and take up a new way in Jesus, a
way where you don't have to defend the actions of
racist men, where you don't have to like have that
(58:45):
and there are so many other things. This is just
one of those things where you can be you know,
renewed in Christ.
Speaker 3 (58:53):
So to that, I say, amen.
Speaker 1 (58:57):
Amen, my friend say well, if you guys are willing, willing,
if you guys are interested in reaching out to us,
feel free to contact us at Jesus for Mormons at
gmail dot com.
Speaker 3 (59:14):
And if you're willing, please subscribe, like and share this
podcast with someone else.
Speaker 1 (59:22):
Beautiful. I love that, you know, it really helps the channel.
Our channel is doing super well. It really helps if
you guys do that. Die. I want to publicly say
you are awesome and I really appreciate you being on
this podcast with me. I am like all over the
place and you are a constant and so I really
(59:44):
really I feel like a.
Speaker 3 (59:45):
Hot mess sometimes. So you're very kind and I love
that you keep waving your venture pin at the camera.
Speaker 1 (59:53):
Two thousand miles away and I'm come on, that's my
home church. For those of you who are in the
Seattle area, you can go to any of their campuses
and enjoy that. All right, Well, we love you guys,
and yeah, until next time.
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