July 30, 2025 • 38 mins
In this episode, Kai Van Leuven and Di Beals discuss the emotional and spiritual aftermath of leaving the Mormon church, asking whether ex-Mormons are driven by a “murderous spirit” or simply processing deep hurt. Kai reflects on how his past anger fueled the podcast but ultimately became unsustainable. Di explains the difference between demonic possession and oppression, emphasizing how lies and bitterness can spiritually weigh people down. Both agree that true healing and purpose come from love, not destruction. Kai shares his renewed conviction to focus less on tearing down the LDS Church and more on simply sharing the gospel of Jesus with grace and truth.
Contact us:
Email: jesusformormons@gmail.com
Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/share/g/kxt1hS692rDMcJi8/
Website: https://jesusformormons.com/
Contact us:
Email: jesusformormons@gmail.com
Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/share/g/kxt1hS692rDMcJi8/
Website: https://jesusformormons.com/
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:01):
Do ex Mormons have a murderous spirit? Is all that
they try to do is to tear down the Church
of Jesus Christ of Latter day Saints? Is that the
sole goal of those who leave the church? Hi, I
am Kai van Leuvin. I spent over thirty years in
the Mormon Church and this is my story after leaving.
Speaker 2 (00:24):
I'm die Beals.
Speaker 3 (00:26):
I am a pastor at Venture Church in the Greater
Seattle area, and your friend here for the journey.
Speaker 4 (00:34):
All right, Well, it's been a little minute.
Speaker 1 (00:36):
We've taken a break, and now we are back, which
is really fun and exciting. I'm glad I got to
take a break. It's given me a chance to really
look at my motives. It's giving me a chance to
kind of stop and reflect on why I am doing
this podcast thing. And I guess at the end of
(00:58):
this podcast, maybe well we'll circle back, will ask the
question was it a good thing for us to.
Speaker 4 (01:02):
Take a break and maybe talk about that?
Speaker 1 (01:04):
So back to the original question, do ex Mormons have
a murderous spirit? Is their whole goal to try to
tear down the Mormon Church? And is that healthy? Coming
from a Mormon background? This demonic uh like you know,
(01:26):
Satan is like a cartoon character. You know, he's he's red,
and he has horns and you know a what is
it a forked tail?
Speaker 4 (01:35):
Is that right?
Speaker 2 (01:36):
Dying a pitchfork?
Speaker 4 (01:38):
Pitchfork?
Speaker 1 (01:40):
Yeah, and we have he has kind of you know,
devious eyes. Right, This very like almost to the point
of being a joke, right, Like, no one sees that
that kind of satanic devily picture in their mind and
they're like, that's somebody to take seriously, right, It's a character. Sure,
(02:02):
And as I, as I saved in you know, a
Christian church and a charismatic church, this idea of like
demonic possession kind of comes up and.
Speaker 4 (02:13):
You're like, oh, I don't really understand that. It's a
little bit weird.
Speaker 1 (02:18):
And I think of it almost like that satanic you know,
little characture of Satan, the red one, you know, and
I think of like, oh, that guy, you know, I
don't believe in that, right, And because it has been
kind of played out that way, but I, as I've
(02:40):
kind of gone longer in this journey, this idea of
like demonic possession has actually been a little more interesting
to me and something I've kind of thought about more
and I don't know, die, what is like demonic possession?
(03:00):
Maybe I'm hitting you with this. You said you were
coming into this about you are super hitting this.
Speaker 2 (03:07):
Yeah, okay.
Speaker 3 (03:11):
So there is a spiritual realm and there are good
spirits angels. There is the Holy Spirit, father Son and
Holy Spirit, and there is an evil darkness side. There
is a captain of the fallen angels, and he goes
by Lucifer or Satan. You're right, he gets the devil caricature.
(03:35):
But you know, if you play around with where'd that
come from? You know, there's a lot of there's a
lot of probably church history involved in it or whatever.
Speaker 2 (03:44):
Can people be possessed by an evil spirit?
Speaker 3 (03:49):
Yes, I have personally seen it and experience not experienced
it in myself, but I have experienced other people struggling.
I think more often, I think that's more rare. More
often is so instead of possession would be oppression. So,
you know, the spirit realm than the evil spirit realm
(04:11):
can mess with us, can can really cause a lot
of darkness, oppression, bad thoughts. They can really mess with
us in ways that we can't see with our physical eyes.
Speaker 2 (04:21):
So that is that a good foundation?
Speaker 5 (04:24):
Yeah?
Speaker 1 (04:24):
And I think one time when we were podcasting. This
was a ways back. I kind of threw shade at
this idea of demonic possession. I kind of laughed at
often and did this, and you're like.
Speaker 4 (04:36):
Nah, o, Kai, it's real. Like it's a real thing.
Speaker 1 (04:40):
And one thing that you said that really stuck with
me was you said, demonic possession really in like maybe
a softer form is anything that speaks untruth over your life.
Speaker 3 (04:53):
Sure, where do lies come from? The Bible says Satan
is the father of lies?
Speaker 1 (04:59):
Sure, So like if you're like, oh, gosh, I suck,
I can't do anything, my life's terrible. There's no hope,
there's no like, that's a form of like nihilism is
a form of demonic possession.
Speaker 3 (05:14):
Right, maybe not possession, but think of it this way.
There are two kingdoms. There's the Kingdom of God and
there's the Kingdom of darkness. And we're in one of them.
Whether we want to admit it or realize it or not,
we're in one of them. So what's your motivation? Who
are you living for? That can feel gray to the
average person, but if your intent is to harm or
(05:38):
be cruel or hurt, there's an instigator behind that, whether
he fully possesses you or is just sort of puppet
stringing you a little bit. I mean, it's that's you know,
there's levels.
Speaker 1 (05:49):
I guess, yeah, and I think that there's there's It's
very purposeful, right, It's there's a purpose behind why you know, Satan,
the Abbesssary, the devil is like pushing you in a
certain way. It's very purposeful. And I believe for me,
I'm going to talk about Mark Driscoll, your boy, Are
(06:11):
you ready for a color curarly?
Speaker 2 (06:12):
My boy?
Speaker 4 (06:14):
But go ahead, that's not what I've heard.
Speaker 2 (06:16):
He's from the Seattle.
Speaker 1 (06:19):
He is from the Seattle area. He's a little bit
you know, famous for different reasons. He's kind of a
shock guy, but he has a a way, he's a
cut So to bring maybe people who don't have a
maybe even a charismatic background, because you know, people who
are maybe Baptist or whatever may not be that familiar
(06:40):
with Mark Driscoll, at least the people I've asked. And
so Mark Driscool is a really well known pastor, has
a ton of influence. He was in this Seattle area,
now he's down in Arizona.
Speaker 4 (06:53):
I want to say he's very clip worthy. He kind
of has some things to say, but he tries to.
Speaker 1 (07:03):
Maybe identify different spiritual demonic possession attributes. That's something that
he's known for. I think these are I think they're helpful.
I don't know if they're like straight biblical.
Speaker 2 (07:19):
I don't know what you're prescriptive, yeah.
Speaker 4 (07:21):
Or prescriptive, They're just they kind of create.
Speaker 1 (07:25):
A type an archetype of like how you may be
acting if you're under this influence. Okay, so let's go
ahead and play this video of what he believes a
murderous spirit.
Speaker 4 (07:40):
You ready to die?
Speaker 2 (07:43):
I don't know.
Speaker 5 (07:43):
Spirit. Jesus says in John eight forty four that Satan
is a murderer. He's just try.
Speaker 4 (07:51):
Anything he can kill.
Speaker 5 (07:52):
He's gonna kill it. An anyone he can hurt, he's
gonna hurt him. All he brings is just pain and
death and destruction. Now he'll promise great things, but he
delivers only pain. What happens with someone that has a
murderous spirit? Gary Thomas says it this way. A heart
that loves to hate that defines them. Now, a healthy
(08:13):
heart loves to loves to love. He's got a murder.
Speaker 1 (08:17):
All right, would you agree with that? As a pastor?
Would you agree with this summary from march Ra's.
Speaker 2 (08:27):
School, I mean I would say most of it.
Speaker 3 (08:30):
Sure, yeah, I would say in generally speaking, yes, where
does murderousness come from?
Speaker 2 (08:36):
It comes from the Father of murder. Yes.
Speaker 3 (08:39):
I think where he and I are going to disagree
is if he delves into your possessed if you do
anything murderous, I'm going to disagree there.
Speaker 2 (08:47):
But so far we're okay.
Speaker 1 (08:49):
Okay, so we're from about ten thousand. You and Mark
are like this, Like I.
Speaker 2 (08:54):
Said, are not just.
Speaker 3 (08:57):
Kidd the reasoning as a woman should stay at home
and cook in the kitchen.
Speaker 2 (09:03):
So we are not like this.
Speaker 4 (09:05):
You are not like that. Okay, Well, my wow, how
do we get back on the rails here? My point
is is that having.
Speaker 1 (09:16):
A murderous spirit is like when you leave the Mormon Church,
you will use that anger, that hatred, that whatever to
just fuel you, dude, no matter what, even if it's
the most petty, small, insignificant thing, you will hold on
(09:36):
to that have it drive you to kind of be
a hateful, vengeful person. And some people might say, oh no,
that's not the come on, Like, look at the leading
voices in this space. I'll call them up by name
because I really don't care. John Delynn Radio Free Mormon,
(09:59):
Alyssa grin Fled, Britt Hartley's kind of coming on this scene.
All these people they are not like talking about the
church in a way, talking about the Church of Jesus Christ, celebrities, saints,
the Mormon Church. Yeah, I know, right, in a way
that is anything other than murderous. Like it's not fair,
(10:20):
it's not balanced, it's none of that. It is literally
how can I attack this organization because I hope it
doesn't exist?
Speaker 4 (10:31):
Right?
Speaker 1 (10:32):
And they, I think, what's kind of sad about it
is they say, Oh, it's about informed consent. We want
people to know about all. Dude, you guys have been
circling the drain for like twenty years now helping people know.
Like last week, John Delynn came up with a list
of twenty reasons why the Mormon Church isn't true. You
(10:55):
probably created that list twenty years ago, Like you're our
whole goal is this murderous spirit. It is to tear
something down.
Speaker 4 (11:07):
Right.
Speaker 1 (11:08):
Who's influencing that? What is influencing that?
Speaker 4 (11:13):
Is it? Love?
Speaker 1 (11:15):
I mean, I can't even ask the question with a
straight face, like is it love that is pushing you
to want to.
Speaker 4 (11:24):
Tear down this organization? Right?
Speaker 1 (11:26):
Not speak about what is truth? Because I have yet
to hear any form of truth come from that camp, right,
the ex Mormon camp. I have yet to hear what
can cause healing. I've yet to hear any of that
come out of there.
Speaker 4 (11:45):
But I hear a.
Speaker 1 (11:46):
Lot of oh, well the church does they were wrong
in eighteen thirty? Okay, great, Like we've heard it. We've
heard it. Like, once you hear it, do you have
to keep murdering it? Like, once the people are out,
do you have to keep that battle cry going?
Speaker 4 (12:06):
I would think no.
Speaker 2 (12:10):
I mean, I do think.
Speaker 3 (12:12):
There is a need for truth for those who don't
know it, but the repeated beating of it probably comes
more from a place of your own personal hurt, which
then would lead me. I mean, I just preached on
this on Sunday. I just preached on forgiveness, the forgiveness
(12:34):
we receive from the Lord, But then what is expected
for us to then extend? And forgiveness doesn't mean you're
homies again and you're in great relationship, and it doesn't
mean everything's okay. It doesn't mean that you are going
to forget about it and never think about it again.
Whatever the injustice or wrong is, Forgiveness is here's the charge,
(12:58):
and here what here's what should be done to repay me.
And I'm going to release you from the expectation that
you will repay me. That's I think most people know,
Like when you struggle to forgive, you're the one in prison,
not the person. The Mormon Church just you know, they're
just cooking along, you know, just fine for now, and
(13:19):
that these people that are angry, they're the ones suffering,
which you have talked about.
Speaker 4 (13:26):
Actually, yeah, and I.
Speaker 1 (13:27):
Think it's I guess I look at how it's probably
affected my own life and how I do believe there
is a demonic element to it that I think actually
really hurts. Like I look at all of the time
I spent now in the church, right in the body
(13:48):
of Christ's mainstream Christianity, right in that you know body,
and I look at because I have so much anger
towards the Mormon Church. Also channeled that anger towards the
Mormon people, right like those who are fully active, like
I've been like, oh, I just don't I don't know
(14:10):
why I just don't want to preach the gospel to them.
Speaker 4 (14:12):
I don't want to be open about my.
Speaker 1 (14:16):
Like my faith journey and process, like I don't really
want to go there, Like that's that's not good, that's
not like like if I think about what I'm called
to do, it's not that it's not like pick oh
these people are Oh, I'm going to share with them,
and then.
Speaker 4 (14:32):
No, it's like.
Speaker 1 (14:34):
You're called to spread the gospel, you know, go out preach,
and so if there's anything limiting that, like, sorry, Kai,
you're in the wrong, Like there is something, there's an
element in your life that's holding you there. And I
really do believe that it's kind of this this kind
of hatred, this kind of murder, like I want to destroy,
(14:57):
like I don't want it to exist anymore. And and
how does that find its way to the people around you?
Speaker 2 (15:03):
Right right?
Speaker 1 (15:05):
That's kind of a scary, scary thing to think about. Recently,
I had my brother stay with me, so die. We
have had guests in our house for the last six months.
Speaker 2 (15:17):
I mean, you are in an ideal location.
Speaker 1 (15:20):
I'm in the best except for like yesterday, everything was
nutty yesterday with the tsunami warning. But yeah, So I've
had people stay with me, like literally consistently, like somebody
just let My father in law was staying with us
for four months before that. My brother was with us,
So like we've had all of these guests stay with us.
(15:42):
My house is so quiet now, it's like I live
in a monk monastery.
Speaker 2 (15:47):
No you don't. You have three children.
Speaker 1 (15:50):
Still, it's way quieter. And yeah, unfortunately on the dog portion.
But I had my brother here with me, and I
had taken a break from podcasting when he was here,
and just kind of thinking about it and thinking about
like when someone comes into your home, you kind of
think about some of the logistical things of where they're.
Speaker 4 (16:12):
Going to stay, what they're gonna eat, what they're gonna.
Speaker 1 (16:14):
Do, right, And I thought about this idea of like, well,
should I share the gospel with my brother? And I
want to paint a picture for my brother. My brother
is like the ultimate gold standard. Okay, he just is.
He's got five kids, he's got a beautiful, sweet wife,
(16:35):
his kids. One of his kids was valed Victorian. He
has a law degree, he has an MBA. He's very
well edged, you know, like this, the list goes on
and on and on right, he's very active in the church.
He's right now, he's in the bishopric, which means something
to people, like he's you know, there's the bishop and
his two counselors. He's one of the counselors. Okay, so
(16:56):
he's kind of high up, and we would call him
like an associate pastor. Right, So he's he's helping out
with his local congregation. My brother like he would not
let anything if me and him had a disagreement, he
would eat crow and say I was wrong. He's that
(17:16):
type of like he's a great like he's not gonna,
you know, hold any wrongs. I really think, like the
the highest degree. My brother is a good moral person.
And I'm sitting there and I'm thinking, gosh, this could really,
you know, derail this vacation when you have you know, yes,
seven people in his family. When you have seven people
(17:39):
plus R five, you know, it kind of is a
lot of people and it could lead to a disagreement.
But I came to the conclusion that I should probably
like preach the Gospel to my brother. Okay, late night
we're talking, and it was really difficult for me to
not try to tear down the Mormon sure, as I'm
(18:00):
preaching the gospel too, Like it's like that it is
like that character, right, you got Satan on the side,
you got Angel on this side, like tear.
Speaker 4 (18:09):
It down like Joseph with those evil.
Speaker 1 (18:12):
Poligamist right, like you like that side of it, and
then you got like the side of it like the
Gospel brings hope, healing. You know, you don't need all
these other things. It's just simply Jesus only, right, And
I thought that was a really interesting like it was
me trying to hold back this this murderous spirit, this
(18:34):
like this natural inclination for me to be like to
heck with the church, they suck, I'm And I've had
multiple experiences where I've looked back at them interacting with
people and said, Hi, why didn't you just like simply
preach the gospel, like, simply preach it. Don't think that
(18:55):
you have to come up with some other thing. And
so I've really felt convicted on that and felt that, Okay,
I should kind of put a lot of this to rest,
like I should put a lot of my gripes with
the Mormon Church to rest and purely focused on the gospel.
Speaker 2 (19:19):
All right, That's good. By the way, that's that's really healthy.
Speaker 3 (19:23):
I think that's part of you processing to say it
in like a worldly way, but that's part of you. Forgiving,
that's part of you. It doesn't mean what was done
was okay, or how things are run are.
Speaker 2 (19:38):
Okay, or the deception is okay.
Speaker 3 (19:40):
It just means you're not expecting you're ever going to
get an apology or they're going to pay you back
for all the that you gave or served.
Speaker 2 (19:47):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (19:50):
Yeah, and I there's really two versus that come to
mind when I've been really thinking about this. What's funny
is uh, first printh thirteen one that has literally been
preached to me or I've heard it or whatever, like
over and over and over again since I've stopped podcasting.
(20:11):
Actually the Pink Apostle, she she kind of called me
out on it, which is actually one of the reasons
why I stopped. But so this is this is the
Apostle Paul writing a letter to the Corinthians. He says,
if I speak so first, he's if we go back
chapter twelve, he's talking about like gifts of the spirit
(20:34):
and seeking those out and all that stuff, and like, gosh,
how great of a blessing that is to the church.
Speaker 4 (20:39):
Okay, just give some context.
Speaker 1 (20:42):
And he's saying, if I speak with a with the
tongues of men or angels, so like if I'm just
preaching it and it's coming down, okay, like if Diabeel's
is preaching or something. But I do not have love,
I am only a resounding gong or clanging symbol. He
(21:03):
goes on, because he just talked about these gifts of
the spirit. If I have the gift of prophecy and
can fathom all the mysteries all knowledge, and if I
have faith that can move a mountain, but do not
have love, I am.
Speaker 4 (21:20):
Okay, No, he says, I am nothing.
Speaker 1 (21:22):
If I give all that I possess to the poor
and give over to my my body to hardship, which
Paul did do that I may boast, but do not
have love, I gain nothing.
Speaker 4 (21:35):
So I uh, I'm sorry. Die a little.
Speaker 1 (21:38):
This quote from Mark Driscoll, because he's saying that like
the opposite of this murderous spirit is a spirit that
is really rooted in love, right, Like that's the opposite
of like.
Speaker 4 (21:50):
I want to destroy this thing.
Speaker 1 (21:52):
Is is this idea that we should we should love?
Speaker 4 (21:57):
Right?
Speaker 1 (21:59):
And then this Romumphesians six twelve. I've also been thinking
about this and die this should be my go to verse.
I mean, look at the third word. I mean, this
should be all me, all day long. It says, where
we wrestle, come on, not against flesh and blood, but
against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of darkness of
(22:22):
this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places. Mm hm,
as i've as I've looked at this, right Like, my
fight is not against my brother, like my physical brother,
this person that in a way, I think I probably
think more highly of him than really a lot of people.
(22:43):
He's he's very, very close to the top. My fight
is not against my brother, but it's against the evil
practices of the Mormon Church. Right Like, if we're drawing
a distinction, it's not even again the prophet as a person,
it's against the teachings and ideologies that he has, right, Yeah,
(23:07):
if we're going all the way to the top, it's that.
And I think even they are unfortunately confined by their teachings.
Speaker 4 (23:19):
I think that these.
Speaker 1 (23:21):
Negative, poor, poor thought out, unbiblical teachings that really have
not stood the test of time.
Speaker 4 (23:29):
Right, they are kind of they are kind of You
don't like the term possessed, but they are. You know, they're.
Speaker 3 (23:36):
They're taking the truth and twisting it or it's a
partial truth. And anytime that happens, if it's not one
hundred percent true, then it's a lie. Even if it's
ten percent a lie, it's it's not true anymore.
Speaker 2 (23:48):
So, Yeah, who's the father of lies? Satan?
Speaker 3 (23:51):
But that doesn't mean that every person is possessed by Satan.
They've just bought his lies.
Speaker 1 (23:57):
Okay, you may have that's you may have to draw
this distinction for us because I am honestly, I don't
know enough to say what the difference is between what
possession and influence is that kind of what.
Speaker 2 (24:10):
Your possession and oppression.
Speaker 3 (24:12):
Possession would require an open door welcome to the enemy
to take full control of your life.
Speaker 4 (24:21):
Dang, that's heavy.
Speaker 3 (24:22):
Yeah, so it's not super common. It's where you've lost
the control because you've given it over.
Speaker 2 (24:29):
You are possessed.
Speaker 3 (24:30):
We understand that term like man, he was driving like
a man possessed, like he was no longer in control
of himself.
Speaker 2 (24:37):
Something else was controlling him.
Speaker 3 (24:39):
That is legitimately, So if you read the New Testament,
and you read like the father who comes to Jesus
and says, rescue my son. He's possessed by an evil
spirit that keeps throwing him into the fire trying to
kill him. That that is possession, and it doesn't have
to always show itself that way, but it shows itself
in a way that is contrary to how that person
(25:01):
would normally act. Oppression. So think possession is on the inside.
Oppression is like over top of you, like weighing you down.
And you can be participating in the wrong kingdom by
the way that you treat people or talk, or the
choices you make. But it doesn't mean you've invited the
devil to come live in your soul. That could be
a you could be on the path there.
Speaker 4 (25:23):
Wow, yeah, that's uh. I don't know.
Speaker 1 (25:27):
I whenever you talk about this die like my Mormon
brain has it, it's so foreign, right, Like it's not
like a like is this and maybe I'm kind of going,
is this like a like charismatic even like that that
(25:48):
type of way, or or is it Baptist like what
a Baptist kind of or maybe tone it down a
little bit, or what is the like is this a
very well known thing across CHRISTI Ristianity.
Speaker 3 (26:01):
I'm trying to understand, I would say, the broad term
of Christianity, and if we use that term including Catholics
who would call themselves Christians in most ways, uh, that
that is a widely understood, simple definition. Yes, Catholics. There
we can learn a lot from Catholics. In fact, if
(26:22):
I could shout out a podcast right now, I'm going
to shout out the Exorcist files.
Speaker 2 (26:28):
Exorcist Files.
Speaker 3 (26:30):
It's a Catholic priest who is and they're dramatized, who
is dramatizing his exorcisms with people possessed, and he gives
really simple, clear classifications that come down from the Catholic
diocese of what how do you how do you know
it's a possession and not mental health and not schizophrenia
(26:53):
and not you know, anger and anger.
Speaker 2 (26:55):
Problem, et cetera.
Speaker 4 (26:58):
That's interesting.
Speaker 2 (26:59):
You should take a listen. It's really Yeah, I've learned
a lot.
Speaker 1 (27:02):
Really so yeah, I love the Catholic shout out.
Speaker 4 (27:06):
That's kind of an interesting one, right.
Speaker 3 (27:08):
Carlos Martin's he's all the rage right now, he's very
well respected, he's very humble. It's never that's one of
the issues I have with people in evangelical circles who
are known as like big deliverance people. That would be
our way of saying exorcism, because you know, like in
my denomination, we don't think of it as exorcism.
Speaker 2 (27:30):
We call it deliverance. But it's the same thing.
Speaker 3 (27:31):
It's just semantics where someone is freed from demonic possession
or oppression.
Speaker 2 (27:37):
But he's he's kind of all.
Speaker 3 (27:39):
The rage right now because he's so well educated and
he's so humble. I love that about him. He's never
Oh then I had to just tell that guy come
out in the name of Jesus. Like that's how some
of the really aggressive, kind of arrogant is how they
come across. Evangelical guy that do deliverance come across. He's like, well,
(28:02):
I have no power. I just say the Lord rebuke you.
I mean, it's he's the real deal.
Speaker 1 (28:08):
Yeah, oh die, Well that's great. I love that you're
I love that you're given some love to a Catholic brother. Okay,
would you consider the brother in Christ like definitely?
Speaker 2 (28:19):
Yeah. In other words, do I think Catholics can know
the Lord? Yes? Absolutely, you go.
Speaker 3 (28:24):
We differ on some key things, but I mean in general,
we all we all believe Jesus is the way, the
way to the Father.
Speaker 1 (28:32):
Yes, yeah, see, I definitely try to like I've learned
that in this pot This is definitely a side note,
but in this podcasting world that like I am so
ill equipped to figure out like who is saved?
Speaker 4 (28:47):
Like, so I just feel that way. Maybe I'm not.
Speaker 1 (28:51):
Yeah, it's like in an honest way, like not in
like a humble way or like.
Speaker 3 (28:55):
Oh you know, I'm like Jesus said, you know them
by their fruit, So we look for fruit.
Speaker 1 (29:01):
Yeah, oh man, I'm gonna totally go off rail. But
is can it be fruit from the wrong tree?
Speaker 4 (29:08):
Though? Can it be good fruit from the wrong tree?
Speaker 3 (29:11):
I mean there is Bible verses about that. Can a
good fruit? Can a good tree bear fruit that is
not of its kind?
Speaker 4 (29:19):
No?
Speaker 3 (29:20):
Can a good tree bear fruit that rots because it's
not harvested? Yes, But but a pear tree doesn't grow apples,
So a pear tree, So if you put that in
spiritual terms, like a tree, a tree planted in Jesus
is should not be growing demonic fruit. That's just not
Those two things are contrary to each other.
Speaker 4 (29:48):
There's a lot of good people to come out of it.
Come on, I think I gotta ask them. I didn't
want to derail this, but I was like.
Speaker 3 (29:54):
Mormons are, by and large incredibly well intentioned. I do
think most Mormons think they are loving, following and serving
the Lord. But it always comes back to Jesus said,
I'm the Way, the Truth, and the Life, and no
one comes to the Father but by me. So if
we do not have a personal relationship with Jesus, that's
(30:16):
the rub.
Speaker 1 (30:18):
Yeah, okay, we can move on because we've had nothing
to do with this podcast.
Speaker 4 (30:25):
But that's okay.
Speaker 1 (30:28):
I've wanted to I wanted to kind of go back
to the beginning and just bring up two things and
then we're going to close out because we're just we're
just at that point.
Speaker 4 (30:40):
Today.
Speaker 1 (30:41):
I wanted to talk about this idea of I stopped podcasting,
and one of the things that I wanted to touch
on is I really lost motivation to continue to do it.
And I think that this murderous spirit, the spirit of
like I just kind of hate the Mormon Church. That
(31:04):
pushed me, but it only kind of pushed me to
a point, right, Like it only was like and then
once you're like, ah, I don't.
Speaker 4 (31:13):
I mean, I don't.
Speaker 1 (31:14):
I still kind of have this anks and I still
kind of have this you know, little edge to me whatever,
but I don't really have it that much anymore. And
I remember us talking off off camera quite a bit
about me just being like.
Speaker 4 (31:27):
Well, am I like healed from this?
Speaker 1 (31:29):
Like I just like, you know, like and that's that's
making me kind of lose some motivation to continue to podcast,
is because like originally I had maybe this you know,
oppression kind of fueling me, and I think it's just
like any other kind of vice, it can only fuel
(31:51):
you so long, right, Like I would love to maybe
do some you know, extracurricular activity as far as you know,
maybe maybe some experimental drug use or something. But I
always feel like, isn't that terrible to say? I always
feel like it will only.
Speaker 3 (32:10):
Hold on ready, Yeah I shouldn't say that, but.
Speaker 2 (32:18):
I just whacked my head on the microphone.
Speaker 4 (32:19):
But can Yeah, I know.
Speaker 1 (32:22):
But I always feel like, gosh, it's just gonna be
so short lived, right Like in m I'm sure it's
a wild ride for a little bit, but it becomes
like short lived and then it becomes so much, so
much worse, And I kind of felt that way, like
with this, with this podcasting side, It's like, gosh, I
(32:44):
would I don't really feel like motivated by maybe like
tearing down the church anymore. That's not really a strong motivation.
Speaker 4 (32:55):
For me anymore.
Speaker 1 (32:58):
And so you lose your motivation, you lose your like
vision for what you're trying to do. But I think
back of like what my like what There's also this
calling element to this, right, Like I feel that this
is like a calling for me to share, you know,
my story, whether it is huge, which hey, I would
(33:21):
love that, come on, It's not that important to me.
But I wouldn't mind whether this is huge or whether
this is small. I hope that it impacts one person.
That's what we pray for every time. But you lose
just your motivation to do this. And I was talking
with a guy at church. I go to a small church.
I was talking with him about, you know, maybe starting
(33:44):
back up the podcast and telling him about, you know,
what my feelings were and all this stuff, and he
turns to me and I do I always love it
when people are very honest, like honest to a fault.
We live in just this super kind culture that I
think is very unloving because we never tell people how
we actually feel unless.
Speaker 3 (34:05):
We're behind a keyboard and we can say it in
the meanest way possible. Yeah, that's really spineless.
Speaker 6 (34:12):
Yeah, I'd like it when people tell me to my
face like same. But we're talking, and I actually like,
I think of all these interactions that you have with
like just word to people.
Speaker 1 (34:27):
I think of all of these interactions I have with
people where they're like, Oh, everything's fine, living in the
dram up puke right, Like there's nothing that really comes
out of it. It's like this small talk. And then
I think about this guy and I'm like, well, I
stopped podcasting because I wasn't really like you know, I
just didn't feel motivated to do it anymore. I feel
like super healed by it. And he's like, well, have
(34:49):
you ever thought that, like podcasting is not really about you?
Speaker 4 (34:55):
I'm like, oh, I.
Speaker 1 (34:58):
Mean I know it's not about me, right, Like I
know this, But when he said it that way, I
was like, Oh, it's about the message, right, Like it's
about what die you and I are trying to put
out there. And it just kind of hit me like
a ton of bricks, like, kai, this really isn't about you, Like,
this isn't about you checking how effective this is because
(35:22):
you actually can't even measure that, right, Like, this is
about putting the message out there. This will be really long,
but I'll try to keep it short. I believe that
the name that you give to someone is important, the
name that you put on them. I was given the
name I've gone by Kai my whole life, and I'll
(35:46):
tell you, glory to God, hallelujah. I ended up in Hawaii, right,
so Kai, Hey, that's a good name to be given.
But my real name is Malachi, which means the messenger,
right or the message however you want to interpret it.
Speaker 4 (36:01):
And I'm thinking about that.
Speaker 1 (36:02):
I'm like, gosh, Kai, it's really more about the message, right,
Like it's about you kind of living up to that
name that you were given, maybe one that you don't
even take full ownership over, but like about putting that
message out there. And so it's kind of helped me
regain this focus of like, Okay, why are we doing this?
(36:24):
What's really our intention? Is our intention to like hurt
the church?
Speaker 4 (36:28):
Gosh.
Speaker 1 (36:29):
I hope that we kind of move on from church
history stuff. I mean, I I've told you all these
things about church history. Are you ready to become Mormon yet?
Speaker 4 (36:38):
Yep?
Speaker 1 (36:39):
Okay, so I think I've I think I need to
probably put some of that to rest and probably just
reach the gospel. So if there's anything from this podcast
today that you guys feel that you need to reach
out to us about, please reach out at Jesus for
Mormon at gmail dot com. It's been fun to have
(37:02):
people reach out to me and say, whoa, you stopped?
Speaker 4 (37:05):
What's good? More people than you someone? Yeah, Oh that's
so nice. Do we did the awe together?
Speaker 2 (37:15):
Die?
Speaker 4 (37:16):
That was that was a moment. That's insane podcast. Yeah.
Speaker 1 (37:19):
So no, But if you want to reach out to us,
I think subscribe because it helps us. It helps us
kind of get the message out about what we are doing.
I just want to give a shout out to our
X Mormon Christians that are like, actually, I feel like
pretty united right now. There's a lot of really great
X Mormon Christians. If you're not on that Facebook group
(37:42):
and you want help and support and things like that,
that's a really good group to be a part of
on Facebook.
Speaker 4 (37:49):
Because we're old. Die because we're old, We're on Facebook.
Speaker 1 (37:53):
I don't know, I don't know. Instagram. I'm not even
that hip. I don't know TikTok.
Speaker 3 (37:57):
I stopped going on Facebook in twenty twenty when everyone
sat behind their computers and said really mean things.
Speaker 1 (38:04):
You mean, like when our world was like coming to
an end. Pretty much, twenty twenty was freaking weird. Like
I look back on that.
Speaker 3 (38:11):
Twenty twenty and any election and anything that any president
says from either party.
Speaker 2 (38:18):
I'm over it. I don't want to hear people's opinions anymore.
Speaker 4 (38:21):
I think that's what twenty twenty four was so mellow.
Speaker 3 (38:23):
I like to see pictures of mountains and good food
and puppies.
Speaker 1 (38:30):
That's why you've hiked every mountain. Okay, we'll die now
we're just talking about us.
Speaker 4 (38:37):
But whatever.
Speaker 1 (38:38):
Okay, friends, I guess that's it, And yeah, until next time,
Love you guys,
Do ex Mormons have a murderous spirit? Is all that
they try to do is to tear down the Church
of Jesus Christ of Latter day Saints? Is that the
sole goal of those who leave the church? Hi, I
am Kai van Leuvin. I spent over thirty years in
the Mormon Church and this is my story after leaving.
Speaker 2 (00:24):
I'm die Beals.
Speaker 3 (00:26):
I am a pastor at Venture Church in the Greater
Seattle area, and your friend here for the journey.
Speaker 4 (00:34):
All right, Well, it's been a little minute.
Speaker 1 (00:36):
We've taken a break, and now we are back, which
is really fun and exciting. I'm glad I got to
take a break. It's given me a chance to really
look at my motives. It's giving me a chance to
kind of stop and reflect on why I am doing
this podcast thing. And I guess at the end of
(00:58):
this podcast, maybe well we'll circle back, will ask the
question was it a good thing for us to.
Speaker 4 (01:02):
Take a break and maybe talk about that?
Speaker 1 (01:04):
So back to the original question, do ex Mormons have
a murderous spirit? Is their whole goal to try to
tear down the Mormon Church? And is that healthy? Coming
from a Mormon background? This demonic uh like you know,
(01:26):
Satan is like a cartoon character. You know, he's he's red,
and he has horns and you know a what is
it a forked tail?
Speaker 4 (01:35):
Is that right?
Speaker 2 (01:36):
Dying a pitchfork?
Speaker 4 (01:38):
Pitchfork?
Speaker 1 (01:40):
Yeah, and we have he has kind of you know,
devious eyes. Right, This very like almost to the point
of being a joke, right, Like, no one sees that
that kind of satanic devily picture in their mind and
they're like, that's somebody to take seriously, right, It's a character. Sure,
(02:02):
And as I, as I saved in you know, a
Christian church and a charismatic church, this idea of like
demonic possession kind of comes up and.
Speaker 4 (02:13):
You're like, oh, I don't really understand that. It's a
little bit weird.
Speaker 1 (02:18):
And I think of it almost like that satanic you know,
little characture of Satan, the red one, you know, and
I think of like, oh, that guy, you know, I
don't believe in that, right, And because it has been
kind of played out that way, but I, as I've
(02:40):
kind of gone longer in this journey, this idea of
like demonic possession has actually been a little more interesting
to me and something I've kind of thought about more
and I don't know, die, what is like demonic possession?
(03:00):
Maybe I'm hitting you with this. You said you were
coming into this about you are super hitting this.
Speaker 2 (03:07):
Yeah, okay.
Speaker 3 (03:11):
So there is a spiritual realm and there are good
spirits angels. There is the Holy Spirit, father Son and
Holy Spirit, and there is an evil darkness side. There
is a captain of the fallen angels, and he goes
by Lucifer or Satan. You're right, he gets the devil caricature.
(03:35):
But you know, if you play around with where'd that
come from? You know, there's a lot of there's a
lot of probably church history involved in it or whatever.
Speaker 2 (03:44):
Can people be possessed by an evil spirit?
Speaker 3 (03:49):
Yes, I have personally seen it and experience not experienced
it in myself, but I have experienced other people struggling.
I think more often, I think that's more rare. More
often is so instead of possession would be oppression. So,
you know, the spirit realm than the evil spirit realm
(04:11):
can mess with us, can can really cause a lot
of darkness, oppression, bad thoughts. They can really mess with
us in ways that we can't see with our physical eyes.
Speaker 2 (04:21):
So that is that a good foundation?
Speaker 5 (04:24):
Yeah?
Speaker 1 (04:24):
And I think one time when we were podcasting. This
was a ways back. I kind of threw shade at
this idea of demonic possession. I kind of laughed at
often and did this, and you're like.
Speaker 4 (04:36):
Nah, o, Kai, it's real. Like it's a real thing.
Speaker 1 (04:40):
And one thing that you said that really stuck with
me was you said, demonic possession really in like maybe
a softer form is anything that speaks untruth over your life.
Speaker 3 (04:53):
Sure, where do lies come from? The Bible says Satan
is the father of lies?
Speaker 1 (04:59):
Sure, So like if you're like, oh, gosh, I suck,
I can't do anything, my life's terrible. There's no hope,
there's no like, that's a form of like nihilism is
a form of demonic possession.
Speaker 3 (05:14):
Right, maybe not possession, but think of it this way.
There are two kingdoms. There's the Kingdom of God and
there's the Kingdom of darkness. And we're in one of them.
Whether we want to admit it or realize it or not,
we're in one of them. So what's your motivation? Who
are you living for? That can feel gray to the
average person, but if your intent is to harm or
(05:38):
be cruel or hurt, there's an instigator behind that, whether
he fully possesses you or is just sort of puppet
stringing you a little bit. I mean, it's that's you know,
there's levels.
Speaker 1 (05:49):
I guess, yeah, and I think that there's there's It's
very purposeful, right, It's there's a purpose behind why you know, Satan,
the Abbesssary, the devil is like pushing you in a
certain way. It's very purposeful. And I believe for me,
I'm going to talk about Mark Driscoll, your boy, Are
(06:11):
you ready for a color curarly?
Speaker 2 (06:12):
My boy?
Speaker 4 (06:14):
But go ahead, that's not what I've heard.
Speaker 2 (06:16):
He's from the Seattle.
Speaker 1 (06:19):
He is from the Seattle area. He's a little bit
you know, famous for different reasons. He's kind of a
shock guy, but he has a a way, he's a
cut So to bring maybe people who don't have a
maybe even a charismatic background, because you know, people who
are maybe Baptist or whatever may not be that familiar
(06:40):
with Mark Driscoll, at least the people I've asked. And
so Mark Driscool is a really well known pastor, has
a ton of influence. He was in this Seattle area,
now he's down in Arizona.
Speaker 4 (06:53):
I want to say he's very clip worthy. He kind
of has some things to say, but he tries to.
Speaker 1 (07:03):
Maybe identify different spiritual demonic possession attributes. That's something that
he's known for. I think these are I think they're helpful.
I don't know if they're like straight biblical.
Speaker 2 (07:19):
I don't know what you're prescriptive, yeah.
Speaker 4 (07:21):
Or prescriptive, They're just they kind of create.
Speaker 1 (07:25):
A type an archetype of like how you may be
acting if you're under this influence. Okay, so let's go
ahead and play this video of what he believes a
murderous spirit.
Speaker 4 (07:40):
You ready to die?
Speaker 2 (07:43):
I don't know.
Speaker 5 (07:43):
Spirit. Jesus says in John eight forty four that Satan
is a murderer. He's just try.
Speaker 4 (07:51):
Anything he can kill.
Speaker 5 (07:52):
He's gonna kill it. An anyone he can hurt, he's
gonna hurt him. All he brings is just pain and
death and destruction. Now he'll promise great things, but he
delivers only pain. What happens with someone that has a
murderous spirit? Gary Thomas says it this way. A heart
that loves to hate that defines them. Now, a healthy
(08:13):
heart loves to loves to love. He's got a murder.
Speaker 1 (08:17):
All right, would you agree with that? As a pastor?
Would you agree with this summary from march Ra's.
Speaker 2 (08:27):
School, I mean I would say most of it.
Speaker 3 (08:30):
Sure, yeah, I would say in generally speaking, yes, where
does murderousness come from?
Speaker 2 (08:36):
It comes from the Father of murder. Yes.
Speaker 3 (08:39):
I think where he and I are going to disagree
is if he delves into your possessed if you do
anything murderous, I'm going to disagree there.
Speaker 2 (08:47):
But so far we're okay.
Speaker 1 (08:49):
Okay, so we're from about ten thousand. You and Mark
are like this, Like I.
Speaker 2 (08:54):
Said, are not just.
Speaker 3 (08:57):
Kidd the reasoning as a woman should stay at home
and cook in the kitchen.
Speaker 2 (09:03):
So we are not like this.
Speaker 4 (09:05):
You are not like that. Okay, Well, my wow, how
do we get back on the rails here? My point
is is that having.
Speaker 1 (09:16):
A murderous spirit is like when you leave the Mormon Church,
you will use that anger, that hatred, that whatever to
just fuel you, dude, no matter what, even if it's
the most petty, small, insignificant thing, you will hold on
(09:36):
to that have it drive you to kind of be
a hateful, vengeful person. And some people might say, oh no,
that's not the come on, Like, look at the leading
voices in this space. I'll call them up by name
because I really don't care. John Delynn Radio Free Mormon,
(09:59):
Alyssa grin Fled, Britt Hartley's kind of coming on this scene.
All these people they are not like talking about the
church in a way, talking about the Church of Jesus Christ, celebrities, saints,
the Mormon Church. Yeah, I know, right, in a way
that is anything other than murderous. Like it's not fair,
(10:20):
it's not balanced, it's none of that. It is literally
how can I attack this organization because I hope it
doesn't exist?
Speaker 4 (10:31):
Right?
Speaker 1 (10:32):
And they, I think, what's kind of sad about it
is they say, Oh, it's about informed consent. We want
people to know about all. Dude, you guys have been
circling the drain for like twenty years now helping people know.
Like last week, John Delynn came up with a list
of twenty reasons why the Mormon Church isn't true. You
(10:55):
probably created that list twenty years ago, Like you're our
whole goal is this murderous spirit. It is to tear
something down.
Speaker 4 (11:07):
Right.
Speaker 1 (11:08):
Who's influencing that? What is influencing that?
Speaker 4 (11:13):
Is it? Love?
Speaker 1 (11:15):
I mean, I can't even ask the question with a
straight face, like is it love that is pushing you
to want to.
Speaker 4 (11:24):
Tear down this organization? Right?
Speaker 1 (11:26):
Not speak about what is truth? Because I have yet
to hear any form of truth come from that camp, right,
the ex Mormon camp. I have yet to hear what
can cause healing. I've yet to hear any of that
come out of there.
Speaker 4 (11:45):
But I hear a.
Speaker 1 (11:46):
Lot of oh, well the church does they were wrong
in eighteen thirty? Okay, great, Like we've heard it. We've
heard it. Like, once you hear it, do you have
to keep murdering it? Like, once the people are out,
do you have to keep that battle cry going?
Speaker 4 (12:06):
I would think no.
Speaker 2 (12:10):
I mean, I do think.
Speaker 3 (12:12):
There is a need for truth for those who don't
know it, but the repeated beating of it probably comes
more from a place of your own personal hurt, which
then would lead me. I mean, I just preached on
this on Sunday. I just preached on forgiveness, the forgiveness
(12:34):
we receive from the Lord, But then what is expected
for us to then extend? And forgiveness doesn't mean you're
homies again and you're in great relationship, and it doesn't
mean everything's okay. It doesn't mean that you are going
to forget about it and never think about it again.
Whatever the injustice or wrong is, Forgiveness is here's the charge,
(12:58):
and here what here's what should be done to repay me.
And I'm going to release you from the expectation that
you will repay me. That's I think most people know,
Like when you struggle to forgive, you're the one in prison,
not the person. The Mormon Church just you know, they're
just cooking along, you know, just fine for now, and
(13:19):
that these people that are angry, they're the ones suffering,
which you have talked about.
Speaker 4 (13:26):
Actually, yeah, and I.
Speaker 1 (13:27):
Think it's I guess I look at how it's probably
affected my own life and how I do believe there
is a demonic element to it that I think actually
really hurts. Like I look at all of the time
I spent now in the church, right in the body
(13:48):
of Christ's mainstream Christianity, right in that you know body,
and I look at because I have so much anger
towards the Mormon Church. Also channeled that anger towards the
Mormon people, right like those who are fully active, like
I've been like, oh, I just don't I don't know
(14:10):
why I just don't want to preach the gospel to them.
Speaker 4 (14:12):
I don't want to be open about my.
Speaker 1 (14:16):
Like my faith journey and process, like I don't really
want to go there, Like that's that's not good, that's
not like like if I think about what I'm called
to do, it's not that it's not like pick oh
these people are Oh, I'm going to share with them,
and then.
Speaker 4 (14:32):
No, it's like.
Speaker 1 (14:34):
You're called to spread the gospel, you know, go out preach,
and so if there's anything limiting that, like, sorry, Kai,
you're in the wrong, Like there is something, there's an
element in your life that's holding you there. And I
really do believe that it's kind of this this kind
of hatred, this kind of murder, like I want to destroy,
(14:57):
like I don't want it to exist anymore. And and
how does that find its way to the people around you?
Speaker 2 (15:03):
Right right?
Speaker 1 (15:05):
That's kind of a scary, scary thing to think about. Recently,
I had my brother stay with me, so die. We
have had guests in our house for the last six months.
Speaker 2 (15:17):
I mean, you are in an ideal location.
Speaker 1 (15:20):
I'm in the best except for like yesterday, everything was
nutty yesterday with the tsunami warning. But yeah, So I've
had people stay with me, like literally consistently, like somebody
just let My father in law was staying with us
for four months before that. My brother was with us,
So like we've had all of these guests stay with us.
(15:42):
My house is so quiet now, it's like I live
in a monk monastery.
Speaker 2 (15:47):
No you don't. You have three children.
Speaker 1 (15:50):
Still, it's way quieter. And yeah, unfortunately on the dog portion.
But I had my brother here with me, and I
had taken a break from podcasting when he was here,
and just kind of thinking about it and thinking about
like when someone comes into your home, you kind of
think about some of the logistical things of where they're.
Speaker 4 (16:12):
Going to stay, what they're gonna eat, what they're gonna.
Speaker 1 (16:14):
Do, right, And I thought about this idea of like, well,
should I share the gospel with my brother? And I
want to paint a picture for my brother. My brother
is like the ultimate gold standard. Okay, he just is.
He's got five kids, he's got a beautiful, sweet wife,
(16:35):
his kids. One of his kids was valed Victorian. He
has a law degree, he has an MBA. He's very
well edged, you know, like this, the list goes on
and on and on right, he's very active in the church.
He's right now, he's in the bishopric, which means something
to people, like he's you know, there's the bishop and
his two counselors. He's one of the counselors. Okay, so
(16:56):
he's kind of high up, and we would call him
like an associate pastor. Right, So he's he's helping out
with his local congregation. My brother like he would not
let anything if me and him had a disagreement, he
would eat crow and say I was wrong. He's that
(17:16):
type of like he's a great like he's not gonna,
you know, hold any wrongs. I really think, like the
the highest degree. My brother is a good moral person.
And I'm sitting there and I'm thinking, gosh, this could really,
you know, derail this vacation when you have you know, yes,
seven people in his family. When you have seven people
(17:39):
plus R five, you know, it kind of is a
lot of people and it could lead to a disagreement.
But I came to the conclusion that I should probably
like preach the Gospel to my brother. Okay, late night
we're talking, and it was really difficult for me to
not try to tear down the Mormon sure, as I'm
(18:00):
preaching the gospel too, Like it's like that it is
like that character, right, you got Satan on the side,
you got Angel on this side, like tear.
Speaker 4 (18:09):
It down like Joseph with those evil.
Speaker 1 (18:12):
Poligamist right, like you like that side of it, and
then you got like the side of it like the
Gospel brings hope, healing. You know, you don't need all
these other things. It's just simply Jesus only, right, And
I thought that was a really interesting like it was
me trying to hold back this this murderous spirit, this
(18:34):
like this natural inclination for me to be like to
heck with the church, they suck, I'm And I've had
multiple experiences where I've looked back at them interacting with
people and said, Hi, why didn't you just like simply
preach the gospel, like, simply preach it. Don't think that
(18:55):
you have to come up with some other thing. And
so I've really felt convicted on that and felt that, Okay,
I should kind of put a lot of this to rest,
like I should put a lot of my gripes with
the Mormon Church to rest and purely focused on the gospel.
Speaker 2 (19:19):
All right, That's good. By the way, that's that's really healthy.
Speaker 3 (19:23):
I think that's part of you processing to say it
in like a worldly way, but that's part of you. Forgiving,
that's part of you. It doesn't mean what was done
was okay, or how things are run are.
Speaker 2 (19:38):
Okay, or the deception is okay.
Speaker 3 (19:40):
It just means you're not expecting you're ever going to
get an apology or they're going to pay you back
for all the that you gave or served.
Speaker 2 (19:47):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (19:50):
Yeah, and I there's really two versus that come to
mind when I've been really thinking about this. What's funny
is uh, first printh thirteen one that has literally been
preached to me or I've heard it or whatever, like
over and over and over again since I've stopped podcasting.
(20:11):
Actually the Pink Apostle, she she kind of called me
out on it, which is actually one of the reasons
why I stopped. But so this is this is the
Apostle Paul writing a letter to the Corinthians. He says,
if I speak so first, he's if we go back
chapter twelve, he's talking about like gifts of the spirit
(20:34):
and seeking those out and all that stuff, and like, gosh,
how great of a blessing that is to the church.
Speaker 4 (20:39):
Okay, just give some context.
Speaker 1 (20:42):
And he's saying, if I speak with a with the
tongues of men or angels, so like if I'm just
preaching it and it's coming down, okay, like if Diabeel's
is preaching or something. But I do not have love,
I am only a resounding gong or clanging symbol. He
(21:03):
goes on, because he just talked about these gifts of
the spirit. If I have the gift of prophecy and
can fathom all the mysteries all knowledge, and if I
have faith that can move a mountain, but do not
have love, I am.
Speaker 4 (21:20):
Okay, No, he says, I am nothing.
Speaker 1 (21:22):
If I give all that I possess to the poor
and give over to my my body to hardship, which
Paul did do that I may boast, but do not
have love, I gain nothing.
Speaker 4 (21:35):
So I uh, I'm sorry. Die a little.
Speaker 1 (21:38):
This quote from Mark Driscoll, because he's saying that like
the opposite of this murderous spirit is a spirit that
is really rooted in love, right, Like that's the opposite
of like.
Speaker 4 (21:50):
I want to destroy this thing.
Speaker 1 (21:52):
Is is this idea that we should we should love?
Speaker 4 (21:57):
Right?
Speaker 1 (21:59):
And then this Romumphesians six twelve. I've also been thinking
about this and die this should be my go to verse.
I mean, look at the third word. I mean, this
should be all me, all day long. It says, where
we wrestle, come on, not against flesh and blood, but
against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of darkness of
(22:22):
this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places. Mm hm,
as i've as I've looked at this, right Like, my
fight is not against my brother, like my physical brother,
this person that in a way, I think I probably
think more highly of him than really a lot of people.
(22:43):
He's he's very, very close to the top. My fight
is not against my brother, but it's against the evil
practices of the Mormon Church. Right Like, if we're drawing
a distinction, it's not even again the prophet as a person,
it's against the teachings and ideologies that he has, right, Yeah,
(23:07):
if we're going all the way to the top, it's that.
And I think even they are unfortunately confined by their teachings.
Speaker 4 (23:19):
I think that these.
Speaker 1 (23:21):
Negative, poor, poor thought out, unbiblical teachings that really have
not stood the test of time.
Speaker 4 (23:29):
Right, they are kind of they are kind of You
don't like the term possessed, but they are. You know, they're.
Speaker 3 (23:36):
They're taking the truth and twisting it or it's a
partial truth. And anytime that happens, if it's not one
hundred percent true, then it's a lie. Even if it's
ten percent a lie, it's it's not true anymore.
Speaker 2 (23:48):
So, Yeah, who's the father of lies? Satan?
Speaker 3 (23:51):
But that doesn't mean that every person is possessed by Satan.
They've just bought his lies.
Speaker 1 (23:57):
Okay, you may have that's you may have to draw
this distinction for us because I am honestly, I don't
know enough to say what the difference is between what
possession and influence is that kind of what.
Speaker 2 (24:10):
Your possession and oppression.
Speaker 3 (24:12):
Possession would require an open door welcome to the enemy
to take full control of your life.
Speaker 4 (24:21):
Dang, that's heavy.
Speaker 3 (24:22):
Yeah, so it's not super common. It's where you've lost
the control because you've given it over.
Speaker 2 (24:29):
You are possessed.
Speaker 3 (24:30):
We understand that term like man, he was driving like
a man possessed, like he was no longer in control
of himself.
Speaker 2 (24:37):
Something else was controlling him.
Speaker 3 (24:39):
That is legitimately, So if you read the New Testament,
and you read like the father who comes to Jesus
and says, rescue my son. He's possessed by an evil
spirit that keeps throwing him into the fire trying to
kill him. That that is possession, and it doesn't have
to always show itself that way, but it shows itself
in a way that is contrary to how that person
(25:01):
would normally act. Oppression. So think possession is on the inside.
Oppression is like over top of you, like weighing you down.
And you can be participating in the wrong kingdom by
the way that you treat people or talk, or the
choices you make. But it doesn't mean you've invited the
devil to come live in your soul. That could be
a you could be on the path there.
Speaker 4 (25:23):
Wow, yeah, that's uh. I don't know.
Speaker 1 (25:27):
I whenever you talk about this die like my Mormon
brain has it, it's so foreign, right, Like it's not
like a like is this and maybe I'm kind of going,
is this like a like charismatic even like that that
(25:48):
type of way, or or is it Baptist like what
a Baptist kind of or maybe tone it down a
little bit, or what is the like is this a
very well known thing across CHRISTI Ristianity.
Speaker 3 (26:01):
I'm trying to understand, I would say, the broad term
of Christianity, and if we use that term including Catholics
who would call themselves Christians in most ways, uh, that
that is a widely understood, simple definition. Yes, Catholics. There
we can learn a lot from Catholics. In fact, if
(26:22):
I could shout out a podcast right now, I'm going
to shout out the Exorcist files.
Speaker 2 (26:28):
Exorcist Files.
Speaker 3 (26:30):
It's a Catholic priest who is and they're dramatized, who
is dramatizing his exorcisms with people possessed, and he gives
really simple, clear classifications that come down from the Catholic
diocese of what how do you how do you know
it's a possession and not mental health and not schizophrenia
(26:53):
and not you know, anger and anger.
Speaker 2 (26:55):
Problem, et cetera.
Speaker 4 (26:58):
That's interesting.
Speaker 2 (26:59):
You should take a listen. It's really Yeah, I've learned
a lot.
Speaker 1 (27:02):
Really so yeah, I love the Catholic shout out.
Speaker 4 (27:06):
That's kind of an interesting one, right.
Speaker 3 (27:08):
Carlos Martin's he's all the rage right now, he's very
well respected, he's very humble. It's never that's one of
the issues I have with people in evangelical circles who
are known as like big deliverance people. That would be
our way of saying exorcism, because you know, like in
my denomination, we don't think of it as exorcism.
Speaker 2 (27:30):
We call it deliverance. But it's the same thing.
Speaker 3 (27:31):
It's just semantics where someone is freed from demonic possession
or oppression.
Speaker 2 (27:37):
But he's he's kind of all.
Speaker 3 (27:39):
The rage right now because he's so well educated and
he's so humble. I love that about him. He's never
Oh then I had to just tell that guy come
out in the name of Jesus. Like that's how some
of the really aggressive, kind of arrogant is how they
come across. Evangelical guy that do deliverance come across. He's like, well,
(28:02):
I have no power. I just say the Lord rebuke you.
I mean, it's he's the real deal.
Speaker 1 (28:08):
Yeah, oh die, Well that's great. I love that you're
I love that you're given some love to a Catholic brother. Okay,
would you consider the brother in Christ like definitely?
Speaker 2 (28:19):
Yeah. In other words, do I think Catholics can know
the Lord? Yes? Absolutely, you go.
Speaker 3 (28:24):
We differ on some key things, but I mean in general,
we all we all believe Jesus is the way, the
way to the Father.
Speaker 1 (28:32):
Yes, yeah, see, I definitely try to like I've learned
that in this pot This is definitely a side note,
but in this podcasting world that like I am so
ill equipped to figure out like who is saved?
Speaker 4 (28:47):
Like, so I just feel that way. Maybe I'm not.
Speaker 1 (28:51):
Yeah, it's like in an honest way, like not in
like a humble way or like.
Speaker 3 (28:55):
Oh you know, I'm like Jesus said, you know them
by their fruit, So we look for fruit.
Speaker 1 (29:01):
Yeah, oh man, I'm gonna totally go off rail. But
is can it be fruit from the wrong tree?
Speaker 4 (29:08):
Though? Can it be good fruit from the wrong tree?
Speaker 3 (29:11):
I mean there is Bible verses about that. Can a
good fruit? Can a good tree bear fruit that is
not of its kind?
Speaker 4 (29:19):
No?
Speaker 3 (29:20):
Can a good tree bear fruit that rots because it's
not harvested? Yes, But but a pear tree doesn't grow apples,
So a pear tree, So if you put that in
spiritual terms, like a tree, a tree planted in Jesus
is should not be growing demonic fruit. That's just not
Those two things are contrary to each other.
Speaker 4 (29:48):
There's a lot of good people to come out of it.
Come on, I think I gotta ask them. I didn't
want to derail this, but I was like.
Speaker 3 (29:54):
Mormons are, by and large incredibly well intentioned. I do
think most Mormons think they are loving, following and serving
the Lord. But it always comes back to Jesus said,
I'm the Way, the Truth, and the Life, and no
one comes to the Father but by me. So if
we do not have a personal relationship with Jesus, that's
(30:16):
the rub.
Speaker 1 (30:18):
Yeah, okay, we can move on because we've had nothing
to do with this podcast.
Speaker 4 (30:25):
But that's okay.
Speaker 1 (30:28):
I've wanted to I wanted to kind of go back
to the beginning and just bring up two things and
then we're going to close out because we're just we're
just at that point.
Speaker 4 (30:40):
Today.
Speaker 1 (30:41):
I wanted to talk about this idea of I stopped podcasting,
and one of the things that I wanted to touch
on is I really lost motivation to continue to do it.
And I think that this murderous spirit, the spirit of
like I just kind of hate the Mormon Church. That
(31:04):
pushed me, but it only kind of pushed me to
a point, right, Like it only was like and then
once you're like, ah, I don't.
Speaker 4 (31:13):
I mean, I don't.
Speaker 1 (31:14):
I still kind of have this anks and I still
kind of have this you know, little edge to me whatever,
but I don't really have it that much anymore. And
I remember us talking off off camera quite a bit
about me just being like.
Speaker 4 (31:27):
Well, am I like healed from this?
Speaker 1 (31:29):
Like I just like, you know, like and that's that's
making me kind of lose some motivation to continue to podcast,
is because like originally I had maybe this you know,
oppression kind of fueling me, and I think it's just
like any other kind of vice, it can only fuel
(31:51):
you so long, right, Like I would love to maybe
do some you know, extracurricular activity as far as you know,
maybe maybe some experimental drug use or something. But I
always feel like, isn't that terrible to say? I always
feel like it will only.
Speaker 3 (32:10):
Hold on ready, Yeah I shouldn't say that, but.
Speaker 2 (32:18):
I just whacked my head on the microphone.
Speaker 4 (32:19):
But can Yeah, I know.
Speaker 1 (32:22):
But I always feel like, gosh, it's just gonna be
so short lived, right Like in m I'm sure it's
a wild ride for a little bit, but it becomes
like short lived and then it becomes so much, so
much worse, And I kind of felt that way, like
with this, with this podcasting side, It's like, gosh, I
(32:44):
would I don't really feel like motivated by maybe like
tearing down the church anymore. That's not really a strong motivation.
Speaker 4 (32:55):
For me anymore.
Speaker 1 (32:58):
And so you lose your motivation, you lose your like
vision for what you're trying to do. But I think
back of like what my like what There's also this
calling element to this, right, Like I feel that this
is like a calling for me to share, you know,
my story, whether it is huge, which hey, I would
(33:21):
love that, come on, It's not that important to me.
But I wouldn't mind whether this is huge or whether
this is small. I hope that it impacts one person.
That's what we pray for every time. But you lose
just your motivation to do this. And I was talking
with a guy at church. I go to a small church.
I was talking with him about, you know, maybe starting
(33:44):
back up the podcast and telling him about, you know,
what my feelings were and all this stuff, and he
turns to me and I do I always love it
when people are very honest, like honest to a fault.
We live in just this super kind culture that I
think is very unloving because we never tell people how
we actually feel unless.
Speaker 3 (34:05):
We're behind a keyboard and we can say it in
the meanest way possible. Yeah, that's really spineless.
Speaker 6 (34:12):
Yeah, I'd like it when people tell me to my
face like same. But we're talking, and I actually like,
I think of all these interactions that you have with
like just word to people.
Speaker 1 (34:27):
I think of all of these interactions I have with
people where they're like, Oh, everything's fine, living in the
dram up puke right, Like there's nothing that really comes
out of it. It's like this small talk. And then
I think about this guy and I'm like, well, I
stopped podcasting because I wasn't really like you know, I
just didn't feel motivated to do it anymore. I feel
like super healed by it. And he's like, well, have
(34:49):
you ever thought that, like podcasting is not really about you?
Speaker 4 (34:55):
I'm like, oh, I.
Speaker 1 (34:58):
Mean I know it's not about me, right, Like I
know this, But when he said it that way, I
was like, Oh, it's about the message, right, Like it's
about what die you and I are trying to put
out there. And it just kind of hit me like
a ton of bricks, like, kai, this really isn't about you, Like,
this isn't about you checking how effective this is because
(35:22):
you actually can't even measure that, right, Like, this is
about putting the message out there. This will be really long,
but I'll try to keep it short. I believe that
the name that you give to someone is important, the
name that you put on them. I was given the
name I've gone by Kai my whole life, and I'll
(35:46):
tell you, glory to God, hallelujah. I ended up in Hawaii, right,
so Kai, Hey, that's a good name to be given.
But my real name is Malachi, which means the messenger,
right or the message however you want to interpret it.
Speaker 4 (36:01):
And I'm thinking about that.
Speaker 1 (36:02):
I'm like, gosh, Kai, it's really more about the message, right,
Like it's about you kind of living up to that
name that you were given, maybe one that you don't
even take full ownership over, but like about putting that
message out there. And so it's kind of helped me
regain this focus of like, Okay, why are we doing this?
(36:24):
What's really our intention? Is our intention to like hurt
the church?
Speaker 4 (36:28):
Gosh.
Speaker 1 (36:29):
I hope that we kind of move on from church
history stuff. I mean, I I've told you all these
things about church history. Are you ready to become Mormon yet?
Speaker 4 (36:38):
Yep?
Speaker 1 (36:39):
Okay, so I think I've I think I need to
probably put some of that to rest and probably just
reach the gospel. So if there's anything from this podcast
today that you guys feel that you need to reach
out to us about, please reach out at Jesus for
Mormon at gmail dot com. It's been fun to have
(37:02):
people reach out to me and say, whoa, you stopped?
Speaker 4 (37:05):
What's good? More people than you someone? Yeah, Oh that's
so nice. Do we did the awe together?
Speaker 2 (37:15):
Die?
Speaker 4 (37:16):
That was that was a moment. That's insane podcast. Yeah.
Speaker 1 (37:19):
So no, But if you want to reach out to us,
I think subscribe because it helps us. It helps us
kind of get the message out about what we are doing.
I just want to give a shout out to our
X Mormon Christians that are like, actually, I feel like
pretty united right now. There's a lot of really great
X Mormon Christians. If you're not on that Facebook group
(37:42):
and you want help and support and things like that,
that's a really good group to be a part of
on Facebook.
Speaker 4 (37:49):
Because we're old. Die because we're old, We're on Facebook.
Speaker 1 (37:53):
I don't know, I don't know. Instagram. I'm not even
that hip. I don't know TikTok.
Speaker 3 (37:57):
I stopped going on Facebook in twenty twenty when everyone
sat behind their computers and said really mean things.
Speaker 1 (38:04):
You mean, like when our world was like coming to
an end. Pretty much, twenty twenty was freaking weird. Like
I look back on that.
Speaker 3 (38:11):
Twenty twenty and any election and anything that any president
says from either party.
Speaker 2 (38:18):
I'm over it. I don't want to hear people's opinions anymore.
Speaker 4 (38:21):
I think that's what twenty twenty four was so mellow.
Speaker 3 (38:23):
I like to see pictures of mountains and good food
and puppies.
Speaker 1 (38:30):
That's why you've hiked every mountain. Okay, we'll die now
we're just talking about us.
Speaker 4 (38:37):
But whatever.
Speaker 1 (38:38):
Okay, friends, I guess that's it, And yeah, until next time,
Love you guys,
Popular Podcasts
New Heights with Jason & Travis Kelce
Football’s funniest family duo — Jason Kelce of the Philadelphia Eagles and Travis Kelce of the Kansas City Chiefs — team up to provide next-level access to life in the league as it unfolds. The two brothers and Super Bowl champions drop weekly insights about the weekly slate of games and share their INSIDE perspectives on trending NFL news and sports headlines. They also endlessly rag on each other as brothers do, chat the latest in pop culture and welcome some very popular and well-known friends to chat with them. Check out new episodes every Wednesday. Follow New Heights on the Wondery App, YouTube or wherever you get your podcasts. You can listen to new episodes early and ad-free, and get exclusive content on Wondery+. Join Wondery+ in the Wondery App, Apple Podcasts or Spotify. And join our new membership for a unique fan experience by going to the New Heights YouTube channel now!
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com
On Purpose with Jay Shetty
I’m Jay Shetty host of On Purpose the worlds #1 Mental Health podcast and I’m so grateful you found us. I started this podcast 5 years ago to invite you into conversations and workshops that are designed to help make you happier, healthier and more healed. I believe that when you (yes you) feel seen, heard and understood you’re able to deal with relationship struggles, work challenges and life’s ups and downs with more ease and grace. I interview experts, celebrities, thought leaders and athletes so that we can grow our mindset, build better habits and uncover a side of them we’ve never seen before. New episodes every Monday and Friday. Your support means the world to me and I don’t take it for granted — click the follow button and leave a review to help us spread the love with On Purpose. I can’t wait for you to listen to your first or 500th episode!