August 6, 2024 • 62 mins
Join us on this captivating journey with Ruben Gonzalez, a former senior special agent with US Customs, as he unveils the thrilling and often perilous world of undercover law enforcement. Discover how Ruben’s childhood in a Puerto Rican family in Wisconsin and his early exposure to law enforcement in Florida shaped his extraordinary career. From being a Customs Explorer to conducting high-stakes operations in Miami during the late 80s and early 90s, Ruben discusses his crucial role in tackling money laundering and his specialized knowledge in marine environments and trade regulations.
Step into the shadowy realm of counterfeit goods investigations, where Ruben shares stories of dismantling networks dealing in fake pharmaceuticals and medical supplies. Uncover the harsh realities and dangers posed by counterfeit heart and cancer medications, among other items, often traced back to international origins. Ruben’s relentless pursuit of justice continues with his involvement in Operation Underground Railroad (OUR), where he fights human trafficking in Central America, offering invaluable training to local law enforcement and holistic support to rescued victims.
Finally, we delve into the mechanics of identifying and rescuing human trafficking victims, from discreet intelligence-gathering in Costa Rican clubs to post-rescue rehabilitation efforts. Hear about Ruben’s detailed strategies to maintain safety and authenticity in undercover operations, including transporting millions in cash with local law enforcement in Panama. His impactful stories and dedication to justice provide a riveting and inspiring account of the relentless fight to protect the innocent and bring criminals to justice.
Produced by: Citrustream, LLC
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Here we are with another session of Justice Then
Justice.
Now.
Across from me is Jeff Thomas,the producer and the person.
The man of the hour is RubenGonzalez, who I've known since
1989.
Ruben's in Panama City, Panama,and I'll let him tell you what
(00:24):
his current job is.
I think everybody will beinterested in this session
because there was a hit movielast year about the subject and
prior to that Ruben was anaccomplished senior special
agent with US Customs.
He was with what's now CBP andalso with HSI, Homeland Security
(00:48):
Investigations.
He's been assigned to the Miamioffice and also finished out
his career in Houston, Texas,had a very diverse career with a
bunch of different cases done,multiple undercover operations.
So that should be a hint aboutwhat cases done multiple
undercover operations.
So that should be a hint aboutwhat he's going to talk about.
(01:09):
And this subject is a verysensitive subject for anybody in
the law enforcement industry.
It takes a special quality ofperson's character to do such,
and when he explains it to you,I know you're going to be
interested in what he's doing tomake the world a better place
(01:31):
for families.
Ruben, it's a pleasure to talkto you.
Speaker 2 (01:36):
Likewise, fred likewise.
Speaker 3 (01:37):
Yeah again.
Thanks for coming on, ruben, soreal quick.
I'd kind of like to open thisup by just asking you a couple
of background questions whenyou're from, where you grew up,
how your childhood was like,what your parents were like and
foreshadowed maybe into whyyou're at where you're at today.
Speaker 2 (01:57):
Simple.
I'm originally a Macetan.
I was born and raised inWisconsin.
My dad had settled down inMilwaukee and my childhood was
there in Wisconsin.
My dad had settled down inMilwaukee and my childhood was
there in Wisconsin.
So I grew up with the peoplesay there's Midwestern values,
you know Midwest.
When my dad retired he moveddown to Florida.
(02:19):
So I finished my school andcollege down in Florida and
that's where I became exposed tolaw enforcement.
I am of Puerto Rican descent.
My parents are Puerto Rican andwe get a whole family
tight-knit Latin Hispaniccommunity Grew up in Miami,
(02:41):
pretty much their high schooland college.
It was during these earlyformative years we met some good
friends, law enforcement peoplelike Toby here.
When we met I think I wasprobably 16, 17 years old.
I was when I started out mycareer and, believe it or not, I
(03:01):
was one of the first personshired was Customs Explorer,
which is a branch of the BoyScouts for finding careers and
so on.
So there were two of us whowere hired at the same time when
I was in New York and myselfwere the first ones who were
hired after I finished college.
Speaker 3 (03:20):
Awesome.
And then after college, where'dyou go from there?
Speaker 2 (03:27):
Yeah, when I finished school I entered.
I got exposed to lawenforcement.
I was in the school departmentand there was a gentleman who
ran.
I'm not even sure who he was.
Back then Custis had what wecall a patrol division.
They actually went on patrolsby the water and so on.
So I got exposed to the marineenvironment and to the special
agencies what we call a patroldivision.
They actually went on patrolsand played in the water and so
(03:48):
on.
So I got exposed to the marineenvironment and to the special
agencies.
This guy was named Ray RogersToby may know him, he's been
retired.
He exposed me to this programand I joined Constance
University College and my firstposting was with an instructor's
job as an instructor in SanJuan Juan, puerto Rico.
So I got to go and live therefor one a year and actually get
(04:10):
to know my family, which iswithout.
That was a plus.
But I ended up getting allthese fever and I was like no,
I'm not gonna get up to thestates.
I I mean, I want to do electionand the time everything on the
action was in Miami.
You know this is the era I'mtalking about dating home.
We're talking about you knowthe times.
You know, miami, rice and southbeach and within miami was the
(04:31):
hot point at the time for my ownfriends.
So I was able to uh finaletransfer back to miami and join
uh a specialized unit that wascalled the Intervention
Enforcement Team, cet, and therewere the elites and they had
become like the new patroldivision of systems and we
(04:53):
worked in ports and seaportscontainers.
It wasn't really working, itwas fun.
It was fun, I mean, we foundtargets in places that you could
not imagine and then once wefind it, you know, call the
special agencies, do theinvestigations and join them in
surveillances and car chasesdown the road, down the turnpike
, trying to stop peoplefollowing containers all the way
(05:15):
from Miami to Houston loads,you know, several thousand
pounds of loads.
It was a fun time, it was a funera and we did a lot of good
back then.
Speaker 3 (05:25):
Awesome.
So this was like late 80s,early 90s kind of.
Speaker 2 (05:31):
Yes, the late 80s 90s .
I worked there.
We worked case.
He moved up to a supervisorylevel within that division and
then later on I transferred overas a special agent and started
working conductinginvestigations.
It was a different part.
That was the part where havingworked as an instructor and
(05:55):
working the ports and learningthe regulations, the compliance
systems of shipments, of trade,of cargo consuming, methods of
consuling, understanding theflow of where merchandise is
coming from and going to thehunt points, made me so much a
better investigator to followleads and think out of the box.
(06:17):
My key was thinking out of thebox and the one thing that
attracted me the most was theaspect of which we'll get into
is the money laundry, and themoney laundry as it relates to
the color operations, uh, mebeing bilingual, being able to
be spanish, read it and write it, um.
And when I became a specialagent, um, I got approached.
(06:39):
I wanted to become the cover inthe cover, working in different
programs, whether it'sintellectual property, money
laundering products, and thecover work is not cut out for
everything, it's somethingspecific.
You have to have a specificmindset.
I don't get into the specificsof everything, but there is a
(07:04):
bunch of testing, there'sdifferent forms that you have to
go through.
They get into the cover workjust to say, hey, I was in the
cover work the Eagle, the Primebut they're still working till
the end.
When you go into the cover work, you have to.
You don't say it While you'reworking on're working undercover
(07:25):
.
You're not telling yourneighbors and your brothers and
your sisters or fellow lawenforcement or people in the
neighborhood.
You keep it quiet.
You do not become a brag.
I'm doing this not because I'mretired, I'm in business.
But you have to have a specificmindset.
(07:45):
They'll tell you this is real.
This is not pretending to be acop, this is being real.
Work undercover where you'reputting your life on the line.
It's not like you've been inreal life.
You put your life on the line.
You put hands in somewhere,handcuffs, when you do it
(08:09):
undercover.
You could be working undercoverin some remote area If you've
been sanctioned and organized ina foreign country and your
alcohol cannot may not be thereright away.
You're backed by the hostcountry to be the ones that sell
notes.
I may not be there right away.
You're backed by the hostcountry to be the ones that sell
notes.
I mean, you're doing so manythings when you're doing it at
(08:29):
risk that you.
It's really people where Iremember going to the conference
where they they said you knowreally of this, you can die from
this.
This is no joke.
I mean didn't even if he wassomething that will change
within a second, and before youknow it, you know somebody has a
gun on you or something or aknife, and before your team gets
you and backs you up, you canbe.
So this is big at Torrance andpeople are like no, no, no, no,
(08:52):
no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no,no, no, no for this.
So, yeah, you have to have, Iwant to say, a little bit nuts
to want to do it.
Speaker 3 (09:09):
Yeah, so you know, concerning your interest with
money laundering and stuff likethat, is that is undercover work
, like is that how you catchmost of those money laundering
things, or is it like just abunch of cash rolls up and
you're putting the dots together?
Speaker 2 (09:25):
No, no, no Digital waste.
There are different avenues.
One type of work is just onetool in your toolbox.
I mean you have agents that aredoing work.
It's counting work that youfollow the source, the
intelligence where the moneyreports from banks, suspicious
activity reports in banks.
Suspicious activity reports inbanks leads from fencing, which
(09:49):
is a financial intelligence unitin the US, and agents will
follow the trail, follow thebreadcrumbs, use subpoenas,
grand juries to the banks, theaccountants.
You interview people you getwarned for, let's say, books,
accountants, information.
That's one avenue, but theother avenue is in the cover
(10:10):
work, where you are able toreduce yourself to longer
people's money.
I mean you set up entities orbusinesses in an under-common
capacity and you yourself mightas sure don't earn your money.
So you're raising illicit fundsand placing them within some
type of financial institution,whether it's a business with
(10:31):
bank accounts, et cetera and youmove the money, cover the money
as gains or proceeds of thosebusinesses, so when it comes out
on the other side to the bank,he can claim it in whatever
country he's in, wherever he is.
Oh, this is money from suchbusiness, so don't be so mean.
You've covered up his originsthrough financial businesses and
(10:53):
there you end up collectingintel and evidence on those
individuals because now theycommitted the overt act of
hiding the money, which is acrime in itself.
On those individuals, becausenow they committed the overact
of hiding the money, which is acrime in itself.
And you're moving millions forthem.
And the thing is that when youdevelop a good rapport with a
(11:16):
certain organization and theystart to trust you, then they
start using you as theiraccountant to pay their bills.
You know, let's, for example,you move a million dollars for
them.
They're happy with you, soyou're able to move more money
for them.
They trust you.
Now they say, hey, can you pay$200,000 to Mr John Smith,
(11:40):
captain, so-and-so Okay, smith,captain, so-and-so Okay.
Can you pay another $400,000 toABC Chemicals in, let's say,
taiwan or somewhere, china?
Can you pay so-and-so?
So now you become paying theirbills.
Now you have to identify theorganization.
Oh, john Smith, he's a captain.
(12:01):
He runs a ship off the coast ofthe Caribbean Interesting,
let's look at that.
Oh, abc Chemicals.
He's a captain.
He runs a ship off the coast ofthe Caribbean Interesting,
let's look at that.
Oh, abc Chemicals out of Chinaor Taiwan, let's look at that.
It could be the precursorcompany that's providing the
precursor chemicals to make thenew products, or so on.
So and so so you startidentifying, you develop your
trust in the current capacity.
Then you look in theorganization and you get
developed or trust in thecurrent capacity.
(12:22):
Then you're not going to work inthe organization.
Speaker 3 (12:25):
And then those in turn become like referrals for
new assignments.
Potentially right, correct.
Speaker 2 (12:31):
Yeah, those end up becoming independent
investigations, sort of what wecall like walled off so you
don't get burned as it becomes.
Speaker 3 (12:41):
Gotcha.
Gotcha, Because at that pointyou're pretty valuable, because
people are referring you toother people and to lose that
status would be devastating tothat whole investigation, right?
Speaker 2 (13:05):
and way better and they've probably even done more.
I know they have done more thanme and more riskier, but in the
time that I've had I was ableto work into uh undercover
operations and doing moneylaundering.
Uh, I was able to work in.
Believe it, when we dointellectuals, um, we call ipr
and uh, of course, theelectronics and the human
support and new products.
(13:25):
You're basically offeringservices, transport services
that for a while in the maritimeindustry, pick up the loads,
(13:46):
bring them out and we, you knowyou can provide the cover load
to hide the narcotics in and youmay.
You charge them for a, for a,for a fee, a percentage in money
.
We move the money for them Inhumans.
We offer, again, transportationto bring people across the
border for them and these peopleand these, these illegals
immigrants, they becomewitnesses and so I have to
(14:08):
cooperate.
So there are different avenuesthat you can use undercover in
the intellectual property rightsin the arena, mostly we try to
concentrate not on fakemerchandise like you know, the
glass you can use your stufflike fake Apple phones, which
(14:30):
are mostly in health safety,health and safety Cases, like
fake pharmaceutical sales offake drugs such as hope medicine
, cancer medicine, a lot of thatstuff that you find on the
Internet.
So I did undercover work with agood agent, an excellent agent
(14:52):
out of Houston fake meds fordogs and these meds were like
tick medications for fleas andtick and it was huge.
It involved the Great Britain.
We worked with Leonard.
He was coming out of India.
It was in the hundreds ofmillions of dollars to fraud and
(15:15):
the case ended up being wheresomeone's merchandise got into
legitimate and being sold inmajor brand stores stuff like
that.
We had one with cancer medicine.
Heart medicine went to India.
Then we come over there inIndia and people bring medicines
for the heart conditions andyet it's the stuff doesn't and
(15:39):
the stuff that's in it isdangerous
itself and these people areputting it in their lives.
And so we found that that is abig business, especially in the
West, because with the cost ofmedicine.
So we went in and did our caseson the current work behind
these medicines so we can thenlead us to the actual supplier
(16:01):
by bigger rooms, leading us intomore, to the factories so they
can show us their operationswith big loads and made us
because we'll become their bestpartners or their best customers
in order then to extradite themto the US, and because a lot of
people die from this stuff.
We had a case that was withtourniquets you know those
(16:23):
tourniquets that you put on whenyou're bleeding out and they
were fainted and some of thesetourniquets were being supplied
to local police departments anddifferent government entities in
other countries and stuff likethat.
It doesn't sound as sexy as oohso you can go out and bring
money for some terrorist groupor something, but in that arena
(16:48):
it's important because it'saffecting rural people and
making because it's it's a, it'saffecting real people and
making a buck of somebody'smisery.
But yeah, I got exposed into Imean I could get into more
specific one case in the carwhere we were working with um
licensing stuff that were peoplemaking hundreds of millions of
(17:11):
dollars selling fake licensesfor, like, microsoft software
and we're everybody got somemajor distributor so we're sexy,
but they were making, hurtingthe businesses and hundreds of
millions of dollars.
But the sexy ones thatexcitement have the excitement
with the takedown and guns.
(17:32):
That's mostly what you want tobring to your product's business
.
Speaker 3 (17:36):
Gotcha.
And so how long were you doingthat for before you are, you
know, gotten to what you'redoing now?
Speaker 2 (17:43):
So I.
So I've been in the long runbetween inspector and special
agent 35 years.
I returned in the end of 2022.
I did undercover work for 10years.
The undercover work.
I got exposed to do some greatstuff, the methodology of the
(18:05):
undercover work and I won't getinto specific on the backstop,
but I'll give you a differentidentity on that um and I'm
gonna uh when I retire.
Um, I'm sort of looking to seewhat I could.
I was putting my name out therein my resume and I've had a few
offers um in complaints, youknow, retention clients, uh,
(18:29):
money laundering, compliance,looking for suspicious
activities from a couple banksand so on.
But I just didn't feel it.
And then this organizationwhich is called Operation of the
Marlboro we have some friendsthat worked there who were
former agents also got word ofme.
They were also retiring.
(18:50):
They always like panama.
I worked as uh here, pam, forfour years as uh, as uh with the
uh, some shades and office withthe homeless security
investigations and I fell inlove with him and I call panama
man.
Like you don't have to have,like you know, but light or
Light or Bud, this I call itMiami Light.
So it's a good place to live agreat place for expats.
(19:13):
So I came down.
They offered me hey, would youlike to come to work for UO,
right here in the Army Room, atthe end of 2022.
And I remember I was on a longterm team.
Why would I want to?
I mean long term.
It was almost a year.
Returned to TY and I cut my TYshirt short and changed the date
(19:38):
on my papers retirement papersand retired.
And retired one day and startedworking for OUR the next day,
literally.
And then three days later I wasin Honduras doing work,
literally.
And then three days later I wasin honduras doing much right
away.
Yeah, so what you are is uh,it's uh came out in the movie uh
, sound of freedom that's verypopular in the us, developed by
(20:00):
uh, uh this proving my angelstudios.
Uh, the story of an hsi agentwho fed up with bureaucracy and
uh quit and started thisfoundation or this NGO,
non-profit NGO, non-governmentorganization and I ended up
looking for them.
I felt it was God's work, Ifelt that it was.
(20:21):
They took it over offers fromthe other private sector.
As I mentioned earlier,compliance was, it was right and
uh, I just felt it in my heartand it's something.
My whole life came from thewest, like I said, I started
(20:43):
really saying I'm originallycalled cheese here in wisconsin
came from wisconsin and bigwestern values and the Latin
culture of family and closenessand helping each other and
Christian values of helping afellow man.
So my whole life has been aboutthat.
My parents taught me is aboutgiving to others, giving to the
(21:04):
community, always do what youcan for everyone.
So it was ingrained in me, soit was natural for me to accept
the job with OUR, and here I am,opened up offices here in
Panama and Central America andwe're strictly rescuing
(21:24):
exploited sexual trafficking,sexual exploitation, trafficking
of women and children, andthere's work to be done here in
Central America Right now.
Presently it's a two-partapproach.
(21:45):
We help the local lawenforcement, the prosecutors, in
trainings and capacity buildingand guide them in
investigations.
We help the local lawenforcement, the prosecutors, in
trainings and capacity buildingand guide them in
investigations and if need be,if we're authorized, if need be,
we'll bring in retiredpersonnel to go and collect
intelligence on the groundutilized by the host government.
We're not doing this out on theroad, you know, we don't want
(22:08):
to get jammed.
And the other part is, afterthe rescue.
A lot of the sponsors don'thave the resources to help the
children or the women, and thewomen need attention, uh,
psychological trauma, medicalattention.
Um, we try to empower the womento fulfill their dreams or even
help them with careers andgrowing up so they can become
(22:29):
independent and not reallygetting duped by some trafficker
, probably seeing a better world.
For example, we've hadoperations in Honduras and
locations where we've workedwith one enforcement and taken
our organizations.
I remember one place we did anoperation and we were able to
(22:51):
get four different organizationsto bring girls um like for
alleged clients.
And well, those girls are like,10 of them were like, 40 were
minors under the age of 15, andthen then out of those, two of
them were pregnant when we tookthem to the hospitals and did
(23:18):
the triage.
Once you rescue them, so itends a.
Today, sexual slavery orslavery is more prevalent than
ever in the history of humankindand I wanted to get into this
and we're able to do good here.
We're rescuing children, we'rerunning into actual
organizations that arerecognized, that they're
(23:39):
operating in, uh well, 40 or socountries around the world,
everywhere from like Thailand,australia, middle East, europe,
africa, south America, centralAmerica, and it's $150 million
operation yearly.
You know, in profit it's thethird highest revenue gaining
(24:02):
illicit activity, afternarcotics and weapon smuggling.
It's number three according tothe United Nations numbers.
But I've been able to rescuesome children here, some women
Women are and we have this issuewith their open borders in the
US.
The US says, oh, we don't haveopen borders.
Well, you know, right, you knowwhere I stand on that.
(24:25):
It's just coming along, theissue here with these women
coming across Panama, the DariénGap in families.
They come looking for a betterlife.
But there are people alwaystaking advantage of the
situation of these people thatare coming, their families
coming across Now the borderhere in Panama, in Colombia.
It's a jungle.
They've been down there manytimes.
(24:46):
They've been down there manytimes and that place is no joke.
I mean, they got beetles biggerthan your fist, they got snakes
, they got canines, they'reeverything.
And the heat, the hydrationalone will kill you and people
die in that road and you havepeople taking advantage.
(25:12):
So this migration that's goingon to the US, to me it's like
American history, indians, theTrail of Tears how the Indians
were being migrated and movedand so many Indians died along
the route where they were beingrelocated in the US.
Some thousands of people diedin these trails and the
organized cartels are takingadvantage of the situations.
(25:32):
So you have something fromsmuggling.
Human smuggling turns intotrafficking with the instance
where they grab these people andthey tell them yeah, 10 grand,
take it to the US.
They sell everything.
They only give you, let's say,4,000 in front, along the way
they get to Panama and CostaRica or Honduras and say you
know what?
I'm yours for another $2,000.
Speaker 1 (25:54):
Well you can't give it to us?
Speaker 2 (25:55):
Guess what we're going to work for it.
Where you're going, she's goingto be working herself as a
prostitute in this club.
You, your wife's going to beworking at a hotel cleaning
sheets or whatever.
Now you can force leave.
Now that into you pay.
You never come up with those$2,000 interest incurred and
additional that they say thatthey've incurred.
(26:17):
So then you move on to the nextstage in the room.
So from a trip that you'relooking for a better life, it
turns into a need for some ofthese people who's smuggling
into trafficking.
And you're looking for a betterlife, it turns into a need for
some of these people who aresmuggling into trafficking and
you never hear from them againsometimes.
So we've seen that organizedand women that are also brought
(26:40):
into, taken from here to Easterncountry Europeans and other
places with false promises Well,we'll get you a better job,
you're going to earn so muchmoney a month.
Then next thing thing you knowthey get there and they're
saying now they take theirpassports and your
documentations and they'reworking in some club.
um and uh they can't get up andthey say well, people, uh,
(27:04):
police, or go for help.
Well, theseickers, when theyrecruit you in these centuries,
they ask you like oh, so he'slike a farm hey, you know, it
could be.
It's a good journey, but just incase, as you're on a city with
your tons of somebody you carehusband, wife, someone that
(27:29):
you're dear to and they say yes,so-and-so, okay, great.
So when they're trying to helpyou, they put you to work
somewhere as a prostitute orforced labor or something, and
they'll say listen, if you actup, you run away and you call
the police.
We have your documents, yourpassports, but here, who
recruited you in that town?
He will take a picture of yourmother, of your kids or your
(27:53):
relative and they'll send it tohim via WhatsApp or one of these
apps and they'll show it to you.
They'll say you know what?
See this?
This was 10 minutes ago.
If your mother or your familyyou behave, shit is going to
happen to them, so that's howthey keep them in control.
So we do a lot of work of thisstuff.
I'm being detailed about this,but we're doing a lot of good
(28:15):
work and all of thisorganization is privately funded
by donors and we're doing goodand I'm very proud and if you're
on to be working with thisorganization, because anything I
can do to help save childrenfrom this evil, evil, immoral
crime of women.
For me it's hopefully God takesa notice and say hey, thank you
(28:39):
.
Speaker 3 (28:40):
So like when you know I'm very much a lay person in
this, you know experience, I'venever.
I've been to Central Americaand South America a couple of
times but um, you know, for workand you know it's just kind of
like when you're there for acouple of days you just everyone
just see, you, you're almostthe exotic person, you know, and
(29:02):
everyone's just kind of goingabout their day.
Um, and then you know, you hearabout the migration from South
America to coming through Mexicoand in the US.
But there's people like thatthat get caught up in, you know,
say, in Central America andthey don't make it to the US,
they get kind of shipped out toEurope and other countries.
That happens pretty prevalentlyor pretty rarely.
Speaker 2 (29:26):
It happens.
I wouldn't say prevalently, butmore than normal it happens.
I always say prevalent, butmore than normal.
They will approach them and sayI can offer you, we can take
you to Paris or we can.
I'll give you a specific caseTo a local group.
They do it to the migrants thatare moving to the locals and
(29:50):
they'll tell them listen, I knowit's tough, the economy is bad,
you can't find jobs.
We have some jobs for you inEurope.
We're going to take you.
You're going to make about1,000 to 1,600 euros a month.
They'll give you a contract tosign.
It's working at some naturecities or at some fancy
(30:11):
restaurant or club.
It's for tourists.
In either case, these women wererecruited.
One of the female recruiters itwas a couple actually flew with
them and flew home, but theyended up.
They flew them to Turkey.
In Turkey, they were handed offto a gentleman and drove them
(30:36):
to Kosovo.
And next thing, you know theirpractices are taken and they're
working at a high-end club, abar club, with VIP prostitution
rooms, and so they're workingthere.
They're like, oh my God, withVIP prostitution rooms, and so
they're working there.
They're like, oh my God.
(30:58):
They were able to get a messageout and we were able the
organization, we were able torescue them and bring them back
to Canada.
We'll pay for the trips, theirairfare and give them assistance
here.
So you have migrants, let's say,coming out of Venezuela or
Colombia.
They get here.
(31:18):
They're like hey, listen, greatjob for you over here, we'll
take you over here, here's yourcontract, it's a contract,
everything else and they putthem to work.
So, yes, I would say it'sprevalent um, where they're just
trying to make a gift of lifeand they don't realize what
(31:39):
they're getting into, sometimesthe dangers about these
predators that are out therelooking for that.
I've been to chile and in chileyou have, we have a trend.
There's a game called now Trende Armas.
It's moving through Venezuela,the movement across, and even
now in the US they're great avery group.
(31:59):
So I was in Chile working for awhile on a conference and we
hooked up with the police downthere and I went driving through
the cities of cities, ofdowntown, and you have a lot of
Venezuelans that have also goneto Chile looking for a better
life.
And the Tren de Aragua gangmembers come out the streets
(32:21):
looking for young girls andthey're looking, they're
profiling and what they're doingis they're looking at.
Okay, here's a 20 somethingyear old girl.
She looks like she's going togo for an interview and she's
moving around with folders andrepeating what her resume is in.
So that's what they're lookingfor.
And they're hey, I got this foryou, baba, you know.
(32:45):
And they promised them, hey,let's have a coffee next thing.
You know, they got theirpassports, they got them
controlled and they're workingin a apartment building where
they're controlled and they'rebeing prosecuted.
And they didn't cooperate.
The girls had them have to.
For every job that they worked,they got to give a percentage.
(33:06):
And if they hold anything, orthey don't want or they refuse,
what they do is they shame thegirl's head.
So everyone in the communityand all the friends know that,
hey, she's from the thing around, but she didn't do what she had
to do to shame them and thepeople.
And they extort the localbusinessmen.
And also another scam they gotgoing on and if they don't pay,
(33:32):
they give them the leg foot.
They shoot them in the leg orthe foot, so they're limping.
So it puts a message out whenthe merchant's walking around
and he's limping yeah, he didn'tdo what he had to do, pay us.
So they're like the new MS--13,ms-18 of south america, central
america so to do undercoverwork?
Speaker 3 (33:55):
are you mainly like um, like going to the places
where these people end up, orlike um, or do you trying to get
them in?
You know, but before they getthere in rote, like how does
that work?
Speaker 2 (34:07):
no, I'm not.
I'm not doing, doing like here.
I'm not doing the governmentpanel, obviously because I'm in
the public life here, but inother countries we'll the
organization we try not to do,because of liability issues, too
much of the work.
It's only as one adds to thepost-government that they need
(34:29):
someone to go in they're anAmerican or European into those
to collect intel information forthem at their request.
We'll do it.
We're not setting up theseprivate parties to come over to
this house because we don't wantto bring up the clause of
(34:51):
entrapment.
But going in and talking topossible girls in there or their
managers, or bartender or lawenforcement cops that they don't
know how to do this, or retiredguys, we can get the red flags
or the basic evidence, um, totake it to the next level for
(35:14):
law enforcement, to take it tothe next level in these
countries.
And uh, and you can see thetall tape.
You say you can look at see ifthe woman looks too young.
Or you can ask her uh, you canask, you can find now if she's
trafficked or she can't goanywhere.
(35:36):
Simple questions, because a lotof them they'll take their
travel documents or passports.
So let's say you find a girlthat says she's from Colombia,
venezuela or some country,honduras, in this location here
in Costa Rica, or Colombia andVenezuela or some country in
Honduras in this location herein Costa Rica, in a club, and
(35:56):
you tell her something.
Well, how do you try to findout without right up asking them
?
Did they take your documents?
No, you say, hey, I'm reallycute, you're really cute, I
really like you.
You know what Can you get outof here?
You know, for a couple days, mytree and they'll say, no, well,
(36:19):
yeah, I can go out, but youhave to pay the house more money
to leave the premises.
No, no, no, like I want to takeyou to Mexico with the
Dominican Republic.
You tell, tell a country thatyou got to know countries where
visas are not for certain people, for certain countries, and you
(36:39):
go yeah, let's go to theDominican Republic you go to.
Cancun.
I'll take you all expensesthree days.
No, I can't.
No, no, it's okay, I can't, andyou go why, why can't you?
no, you know I can't.
Okay, for all those days youknow more than you would make
(37:00):
here and eventually they'll say,no, they have my birth
certificate.
They can't tell me.
And so that, right, there isone of the elements of
trafficking.
By then simply saying that theycan't vote with you, that could
(37:22):
be a flat, that they're beingtracked, that they're being held
there because their documentsare being controlled.
So, even if they don't rightout say it, the fact that they
tell you no, they can't, that'san indicator to go to the next
level.
On the investigation Simplestuff, simple trick like that
will go into location to getthat.
On the investigation Simplestuff, simple trick like that.
(37:42):
We'll go into location to getthat type of intel.
But it's not that we'reknocking down doors, you know,
like a SWAT team.
No, no, no, that's the hostgovernment, that's their job,
that's their responsibility.
We'll just provide the inteland assist them in every way we
can.
But the number one way,primarily for us, is to build up
(38:03):
the law enforcement to get tothat level of efficiency, of
professionalism and becomeexperts themselves so they can
do it themselves.
There are certain things theycan do.
Sometimes you need a lookingform to collect that intel for
you.
Speaker 3 (38:21):
Gotcha, gotcha looking for a particular man to
let that intel for you.
Operation Underground Railroadonly works in countries where
they're like they want the help.
Speaker 2 (38:29):
No, no, no, We'll go out and engage and make contact
with the countries and sometimeswe'll start working there
period and get them to know usand the good that we can do and
what we can bring to the table.
But I would say, yeah, most ofthe time they want us there,
(38:51):
they welcome our assistance,especially when we're helping
the aftercare, the victims orthe survivors after their health
, because we're helping themwith some of those and then, um,
we help with like medicine, asmentioned before in psychology
(39:13):
treatments.
Um, we'll help them.
Let's say, we're still ruraland she says I want to stay in
this country, I don't want to gobetween your country.
I want to learn how to becomean office manager in some
business, you know, like, I wantto learn how to become
certified in Microsoft System,adobe, excel and use all that.
(39:34):
So we'll find like a school.
Or I want to learn a trade.
We'll find a school for thattrade and pay the tuition.
And then we'll tell them okay,it's to you now.
You have to show up, you haveto pass, you have to take the
(39:56):
courses.
By then doing that, they'rebecoming self-reliant, they're
learning to become whole again.
You're empowering them and thenhelp them also to find jobs.
That's so they don't.
The cycle does not continue,what we call break the chain.
(40:17):
You know that old adage you cangive a guy a fish, but if you
teach him not continue what wecall break the chain.
You know, you know that old,that old adage you know.
You know you can give a guy afish, but if you teach him how
to fish, it's instead of givingthe fish and teach him how to
finish it, he won't go home.
So basically, that's thephilosophy and these women can,
um, we sometimes even help themset up businesses.
(40:39):
We have some have set up smallbusinesses, small entrepreneurs,
and they've become successful.
Some continue to go on into themedical field.
We've helped them get into itand then they themselves have
gone on and gotten scholarshipsand move on.
(41:00):
We had one girl in Honduras whoher dream was just to finish
high school.
She was there to finish highschool.
She said that her life was born.
Her life began the day she wasrescued.
She was probably at the time, Ithink, like 14 years old.
(41:23):
She graduated recently and onher classroom graduation ring on
her finger she took a picture,sent it to us.
On the inside of her ring sheput the date not of graduation,
the date that she was rescuedyou are out of graduation.
(41:45):
The date that she was rescuedby you are and and the host
country law enforcement.
So, um, to have the greatestfeeling is when you rescue some
of these women that's it'shappened to me is, um, when they
come back later, after a coupleweeks, that they're calm, their
brain is is settled, they'regotten over the shock.
It's a lot going on and you'remeeting with them and they come
(42:08):
and they give you a hug and theysay thank you, thank you for
saving my life, thank you, andthat's better than a million
bucks because you know you justimpacted someone's life, so
you're blessed.
I believe that if you canimpact one person's life, you're
(42:29):
blessed.
Speaker 3 (42:31):
Definitely, definitely.
So, yeah, I think that's got tobe like the most rewarding part
of the whole thing, right, isafterwards seeing some of these
people go from hell to you knowsomething prosperous and
productive.
Are there what?
What's, um, like, what's theworst countries?
What are, what are some of thecountries that are like screw
you guys, we don't want you,we're taking care of the problem
(42:52):
ourselves or not?
Speaker 2 (42:54):
and uh, and like where it's not even worth
dealing with no question I Idon't know because I haven't
spoken to the other countries orthe management about that.
I know that here in CentralAmerica and in South America
they want us, they beg us tocome in and we need more help.
We need more assistance Becausenot just the resources, the
(43:17):
financial that we bring, thetraining, the capacity building,
we also help with awareness andeducation.
The biggest threat, like fornow, in the exploitation of
children or children becomingvictims, is the ease of social
(43:39):
media, social apps.
So you have a lot of predatorsand people on these social apps
talking to kids and enticingthem, getting up to a location
where they can actually meet anddo something with them, to them
.
So it's we try to also help outin education on the pearls of
(44:03):
you know, monitoring the dangersof social applications and
helping local law enforcementdevelop their capabilities in
the cybernetic and internetarena to proactively be out
there looking for thesepredators and helping those
countries in legislationupdating their legislation to
(44:25):
reflect the new times and newtechnologies that are out there.
That were kids becomevulnerable to these predators
and they end up these kids endup being sexually trafficked and
sexually used let's go back toyour government work.
Speaker 1 (44:45):
Give me an example of what's the most frightening
circumstance you faced, notnecessarily in an undercover
role, but in general.
You know, and I'll be straightwith you on this, we had a very
lack of Hispanic agents when Istarted.
(45:07):
Okay, believe it or not it was,it was a very.
All you did was undercover.
I mean, with the drug wars withthe Cubans and the Colombians,
you would get that phone call 10o'clock at night.
Go out.
You got to be the UC, I mean me.
A guy from Massachusetts couldnot go out and buy from drugs
(45:31):
from Colombians or go out and doa money pickup.
Okay, what I'm asking you isbasically what kind of
undercover did what kind of work?
What challenging stuff have youbeen actually not scared but
you had to pay attention toright away?
Speaker 2 (45:52):
Oh my God, the key for me, the most difficult thing
, was the details.
The detail, the slightest,smallest thing could give you
(46:14):
away who you were.
And one of the biggest issuesto overcome understanding the
Spanish culture for me was a lotof the narcotics guys or the
Latinos in the Hispaniccommunity that were involved in
the illicit trade and narcoticsand mail laundering are very
(46:37):
superstitious.
Some of my laundry are verysuperstitious and Toby you,
coming also from Miami, youunderstand a lot would be
involved in santeria, likevoodoo, magic santeria and all
this stuff.
And if they met with you andthey got a bad vibe, bad feeling
(47:00):
, you had to be careful how youdressed, what you spoke, your
mannerism, any little thing.
They would look at you and theydidn't like your pants, the
color of your shirt.
Right away you're a cop or thedeal is off.
So the key thing for me wasmaking sure that I not didn't
(47:22):
trigger something um on him.
I I had a case one time and uh,the uh, the guy started probed
me and they were Mexicans andthe thing was they were just
(47:47):
looking at me and my PuertoRican accent right.
And here I am and they're justlike.
I knew what they were thinking.
I knew they were like is thisnot a cop?
Why is this?
And I just have to make surethat the details matter for me
(48:07):
and the biggest thing is it wasthat.
And the other thing was I gotscared one time when I was doing
a deal and I was meeting withsome people in.
It was, I believe it was, in StWarren.
We were on the Dutch side andthese guys were.
(48:31):
They were Colombians and wewere picking up major, major
money and we were able the Dutchto get to get her phones and we
had an initial meeting and theywere just talking about you
know what is.
(48:52):
Are these guys for real?
It was like the first meetingand we had to make a phone call
we're going to meet with them ornot?
Even though they had doubts,they weren't sure it was big
money.
We had the meeting but I had tomake sure that my cover team
and myself I was totally fleeingand and it's the whole thing is
(49:12):
for me, the terror has beenworking in foreign country,
taking up money.
My thing has always been, notso much in Syria but in some of
the Latin countries where theyallow us to operate, is are the
people that are covering me thatwe try to limit who knows who I
(49:33):
am.
Are they're the ones?
Speaker 1 (49:36):
who are gonna give me ?
Speaker 2 (49:37):
up.
So you always have that fear.
I can't be reminded.
I remember one time when Ifirst got to Panama here I was
not.
This is not on the cover.
Give me an idea.
My first week here I get a case.
(49:57):
I had to go to the clone freezone.
I just met these cops.
The guys that worked with meknew them.
This is the first time I metthem.
It took me three days to goalong in the Free Zone.
We come back.
We end up with $7 million incash that was being shipped to
Columbia.
I'm coming back, for example, ona country road, one lane, going
(50:18):
one lane coming, climb throughhills back and forth at you know
, one in the morning with $7million, four vehicles.
I'm the only agent.
The rest are local cops and I'mthinking I just met these guys
three days ago.
My buddies vouch for them.
But you know, do I trust theseguys?
(50:42):
Are we going to get ambushed onthis road, dark road?
You know these cops, local cops.
You know for this kind of money.
You know put a bullet in andyou know take the money an
ambush on me.
So these are the real thingsthat you deal with as an
undercover and when you're inthe field, when you're working,
(51:02):
especially in a foreignenvironment, with stuff like
that.
My biggest concern was thesmallest details, things like
when they're prepping thematerials for you, really giving
the undercover meaning.
Is everything up to date?
If you set up an apartment, isthe apartment up to date?
(51:22):
Is the food in the refrigeratorin the undercover office?
Is it good?
You can't have anything that'sexpired.
You can't have anything that'sif it needs to complain.
You don't have pictures ofyourself with family and friends
or something in your office, inyour undercover office, then it
looks fake.
It has to look real.
Speaker 1 (51:42):
The details matter.
Speaker 2 (51:43):
They pay attention to the details how you're dressed,
your shoes, the jewelry you'rewearing.
If you're playing a businessman, are your nails fixed?
Are your nails done properlymanicured?
Are you playing a constructionworker?
Are your hands coarse?
And you say, yeah, I meanconstruction, only life.
But yet you have the hands ofthe permanent owner.
(52:05):
You know the details and a lotof times not every undercover
can do all types of undercover,like I did not do street corner
or construction undercover,biker.
I didn't fit.
That person Mostly stuck towhite collar type money
(52:29):
laundering stuff.
Well, you have other guys thatcan do corner, street stuff,
that can do bikers.
So management needs to knowyour abilities and where you fit
in.
You can't force the circle intothe square, and sometimes they
(52:50):
do, and that's when things gowrong.
I don't know if I put morethere than your question.
You know totally want to answer, but it's somewhat aligned to
the details.
Speaker 1 (53:00):
Yeah, it comes down to screening.
It comes down to screening theright person for the assignment
and especially with somethinglike that.
I mean, you know the work I'vedone as a PI on Persona Non
Grata in Venezuela.
Because of the work that wasdone.
Speaker 2 (53:17):
Yeah, don't let them put you in jail.
Speaker 1 (53:19):
What's that?
Yeah, they would, and you knowthat We've talked about this
both when you were with thegovernment and since.
But yeah, I'm not going to getthe welcome wagon if I go back.
But at the same time, being agringo for call it a lesser word
worked to my advantage, becausewhen I was down there until I
(53:42):
was told to leave by Ledea thatit worked because I was able to
blend in and get things done.
But you're right, it has to bearound the situation and you
have to pick the right person.
Situation and you have to pickthe right person.
(54:05):
I think what you've explainedwell is, once the children and
the women are rescued, they gothrough a process of
psychological job placement.
I don't think that has beenaddressed in Sound of Freedom
and I don't think theorganization that you work for
people don't realize it is asocial service component for
these victims and I thought youdid a great job explaining that,
(54:26):
because the public just knowsyou rescue and there's a happy
ending afterwards, but there issevere psychological trauma to
any any of these ladies thathave been through that, Correct?
Speaker 2 (54:41):
Yes, yes, as a matter of fact, our biggest part of
our budget, that we spend thebiggest chunk, the largest chunk
is for survivor care, helpingthem after their rescue.
Speaker 1 (54:56):
Okay, and let me ask you this, since, as far as the
individuals that are traffickingthem and they're prosecuted in
country, what kind of sentencesdo they get down in Central
America and you know, NorthernColumbia and stuff like that?
Speaker 2 (55:16):
It's, various countries are, and everything
based on the Korean UnitedNations established definition
of what is trafficking andelected Panama, I think it
starts at seven years is thelowest sentence.
(55:38):
Each country is a little bitdifferent.
Um, they, they're, they'restringent.
Um, I know panama is trying toraise it something to like 12,
15 years sentence.
Um, the countries are similar.
Um, I don't know the othercountry specific, but it's a
country, it's, it's verystraight.
(55:58):
Um, they, especially in latLatin cultures, because, you
know, overall, you know kids areeverything.
You know most cultures, youknow, I think, from the Italians
, the Latins, you know families,everything, our children are
the most precious things to us.
So I mean, I've seen inGuatemala and also in Honduras
(56:20):
and other countries, where theycatch somebody with a child,
they won't even let the cops getinvolved.
The whole village will come outand torture them alive.
You know they'll do the, youknow like put the tires around
the person, put gasoline andthen line them up and God forbid
the cops try to step in.
Speaker 1 (56:42):
Don't lynch the cops yeah, no, that's uh, that's how
it is.
I, uh you talked about santaria.
Uh, for those people that don'tknow, it's uh, it's quite a
phenomenon.
It's a mix of african religionwith catholicism.
And we used to have the boats.
They would put chicken blood onthe customs boats.
(57:04):
Remember that.
And I actually did a searchwarrant on a case one of my
Evelyn Bison Papa, who I'll betied to the rest of my life with
her arrest and release.
One of the principals in therehad a Santero altar in West
Kendall and we went in and theyhad a box for an Uzi machine gun
(57:29):
in there and one of the agentsthe guy wasn't going to talk and
when he was face down facingthe altar, we asked him donde
esta pistola?
My Spanish, but he had it inthe attic directly above.
So you're right, the wholeculture is different and they're
(57:52):
going to size you up too.
Your accent was different andhow you dress.
If you dress with nice shoes,they know that they think that
you have money and then whenthey go to your office, if you
have a generic office with noprotocol of family pictures or
things like that, then it'sgoing to be suspicious and put
(58:16):
you in danger.
So, matt, where do you see?
I have one more question andI'll let Jeff go when do you see
the program?
How is it continuing withOperation Underground Railroad?
What are the future objectivesthat you have?
Speaker 2 (58:35):
All right, we are moving still in heavily in
assisting the healthcareproactively.
I think we're moving or I'veseen at least here in Panama
we're trying to move them moreto local cops, to cybernetic
(58:59):
area where we can develop unitsin Panama proactively.
Child exploitation images thatpeople move in the black web or
(59:27):
through certain platforms,cryptic platforms, pornographic
material, children.
So for me, panama would be abig push for that, because in
certain countries Colombia,costa Rica and some of Central
America you still have a lot ofsexual tourism and some of these
(59:49):
people come down here for halfsex with children.
Sometimes they like to takepictures or have a trophy.
They like to take pictures orhave a trophy, but they'll start
and you'll have local predatorslooking through social media
(01:00:10):
enticing kids.
So I want to expand that herein Central America a proactive
system.
We can assist them withsoftware and training the law
enforcement in this matter andadjusting the laws to that so
they can prosecute these peopleonline looking for sharing these
(01:00:33):
images and or looking for kidsonline to get them to meet
somewhere.
Kids online to get them to meetsomewhere um the evening or that
, because as technology evolves,things evolve, um, the police
have to keep up and they don't.
Sometimes they don't have theresources, like sometimes we do
in the states, um to to do thisand keep it up.
And the reason we had to do itwith them is because this is
(01:00:56):
something that we as a privateentity can't do.
It has to be authorized lawenforcement that can do this and
have possession of these images.
I mean, if we were to do that,a contractor that I would hire
to help me, I mean they wouldn'thave been jailed just for the
mere possession of an image orrecruiting for someone sending
(01:01:17):
them an image.
It has to be law enforcement,or recruiting or someone sending
them an image.
It has to be law enforcement.
We can help them in thetechnology.
How do you approach?
How do you speak online?
How do you cover your IPs?
How do you set up fake profilesto proactively be out there
looking for these onlineprinters?
Speaker 1 (01:01:35):
I just have to tell you you had the fastest
retirement I've ever seen.
I'm talking to you and thenlet's see.
You left on a Friday and youstarted the new job on a Monday.
Speaker 2 (01:01:48):
Yeah, it was quick.
Speaker 1 (01:01:51):
That's legendary.
It's not quick, it's legendaryto do something like that.
To do something like that.
We've had some guests that haveretired in like two weeks and
that but two days.
That's a record, my friend.
I look forward to seeing yousoon and best, and what a view
(01:02:12):
you have down there, it'samazing.
Speaker 2 (01:02:14):
Hey man, both of you, come on down to Kessler.
You got a path torasher.
Speaker 1 (01:02:19):
Come enjoy Miami Light as I call it, miami.
Speaker 3 (01:02:22):
Light.
I like that Sign me up.
Thanks a lot, Ruben.
Appreciate it.
Speaker 1 (01:02:26):
Thank you, Ruben Bye.
Speaker 3 (01:02:27):
Take care guys.
Speaker 1 (01:02:28):
See you.
Here we are with another session of Justice Then
Justice.
Now.
Across from me is Jeff Thomas,the producer and the person.
The man of the hour is RubenGonzalez, who I've known since
1989.
Ruben's in Panama City, Panama,and I'll let him tell you what
(00:24):
his current job is.
I think everybody will beinterested in this session
because there was a hit movielast year about the subject and
prior to that Ruben was anaccomplished senior special
agent with US Customs.
He was with what's now CBP andalso with HSI, Homeland Security
(00:48):
Investigations.
He's been assigned to the Miamioffice and also finished out
his career in Houston, Texas,had a very diverse career with a
bunch of different cases done,multiple undercover operations.
So that should be a hint aboutwhat cases done multiple
undercover operations.
So that should be a hint aboutwhat he's going to talk about.
(01:09):
And this subject is a verysensitive subject for anybody in
the law enforcement industry.
It takes a special quality ofperson's character to do such,
and when he explains it to you,I know you're going to be
interested in what he's doing tomake the world a better place
(01:31):
for families.
Ruben, it's a pleasure to talkto you.
Speaker 2 (01:36):
Likewise, fred likewise.
Speaker 3 (01:37):
Yeah again.
Thanks for coming on, ruben, soreal quick.
I'd kind of like to open thisup by just asking you a couple
of background questions whenyou're from, where you grew up,
how your childhood was like,what your parents were like and
foreshadowed maybe into whyyou're at where you're at today.
Speaker 2 (01:57):
Simple.
I'm originally a Macetan.
I was born and raised inWisconsin.
My dad had settled down inMilwaukee and my childhood was
there in Wisconsin.
My dad had settled down inMilwaukee and my childhood was
there in Wisconsin.
So I grew up with the peoplesay there's Midwestern values,
you know Midwest.
When my dad retired he moveddown to Florida.
(02:19):
So I finished my school andcollege down in Florida and
that's where I became exposed tolaw enforcement.
I am of Puerto Rican descent.
My parents are Puerto Rican andwe get a whole family
tight-knit Latin Hispaniccommunity Grew up in Miami,
(02:41):
pretty much their high schooland college.
It was during these earlyformative years we met some good
friends, law enforcement peoplelike Toby here.
When we met I think I wasprobably 16, 17 years old.
I was when I started out mycareer and, believe it or not, I
(03:01):
was one of the first personshired was Customs Explorer,
which is a branch of the BoyScouts for finding careers and
so on.
So there were two of us whowere hired at the same time when
I was in New York and myselfwere the first ones who were
hired after I finished college.
Speaker 3 (03:20):
Awesome.
And then after college, where'dyou go from there?
Speaker 2 (03:27):
Yeah, when I finished school I entered.
I got exposed to lawenforcement.
I was in the school departmentand there was a gentleman who
ran.
I'm not even sure who he was.
Back then Custis had what wecall a patrol division.
They actually went on patrolsby the water and so on.
So I got exposed to the marineenvironment and to the special
agencies what we call a patroldivision.
They actually went on patrolsand played in the water and so
(03:48):
on.
So I got exposed to the marineenvironment and to the special
agencies.
This guy was named Ray RogersToby may know him, he's been
retired.
He exposed me to this programand I joined Constance
University College and my firstposting was with an instructor's
job as an instructor in SanJuan Juan, puerto Rico.
So I got to go and live therefor one a year and actually get
(04:10):
to know my family, which iswithout.
That was a plus.
But I ended up getting allthese fever and I was like no,
I'm not gonna get up to thestates.
I I mean, I want to do electionand the time everything on the
action was in Miami.
You know this is the era I'mtalking about dating home.
We're talking about you knowthe times.
You know, miami, rice and southbeach and within miami was the
(04:31):
hot point at the time for my ownfriends.
So I was able to uh finaletransfer back to miami and join
uh a specialized unit that wascalled the Intervention
Enforcement Team, cet, and therewere the elites and they had
become like the new patroldivision of systems and we
(04:53):
worked in ports and seaportscontainers.
It wasn't really working, itwas fun.
It was fun, I mean, we foundtargets in places that you could
not imagine and then once wefind it, you know, call the
special agencies, do theinvestigations and join them in
surveillances and car chasesdown the road, down the turnpike
, trying to stop peoplefollowing containers all the way
(05:15):
from Miami to Houston loads,you know, several thousand
pounds of loads.
It was a fun time, it was a funera and we did a lot of good
back then.
Speaker 3 (05:25):
Awesome.
So this was like late 80s,early 90s kind of.
Speaker 2 (05:31):
Yes, the late 80s 90s .
I worked there.
We worked case.
He moved up to a supervisorylevel within that division and
then later on I transferred overas a special agent and started
working conductinginvestigations.
It was a different part.
That was the part where havingworked as an instructor and
(05:55):
working the ports and learningthe regulations, the compliance
systems of shipments, of trade,of cargo consuming, methods of
consuling, understanding theflow of where merchandise is
coming from and going to thehunt points, made me so much a
better investigator to followleads and think out of the box.
(06:17):
My key was thinking out of thebox and the one thing that
attracted me the most was theaspect of which we'll get into
is the money laundry, and themoney laundry as it relates to
the color operations, uh, mebeing bilingual, being able to
be spanish, read it and write it, um.
And when I became a specialagent, um, I got approached.
(06:39):
I wanted to become the cover inthe cover, working in different
programs, whether it'sintellectual property, money
laundering products, and thecover work is not cut out for
everything, it's somethingspecific.
You have to have a specificmindset.
I don't get into the specificsof everything, but there is a
(07:04):
bunch of testing, there'sdifferent forms that you have to
go through.
They get into the cover workjust to say, hey, I was in the
cover work the Eagle, the Primebut they're still working till
the end.
When you go into the cover work, you have to.
You don't say it While you'reworking on're working undercover
(07:25):
.
You're not telling yourneighbors and your brothers and
your sisters or fellow lawenforcement or people in the
neighborhood.
You keep it quiet.
You do not become a brag.
I'm doing this not because I'mretired, I'm in business.
But you have to have a specificmindset.
(07:45):
They'll tell you this is real.
This is not pretending to be acop, this is being real.
Work undercover where you'reputting your life on the line.
It's not like you've been inreal life.
You put your life on the line.
You put hands in somewhere,handcuffs, when you do it
(08:09):
undercover.
You could be working undercoverin some remote area If you've
been sanctioned and organized ina foreign country and your
alcohol cannot may not be thereright away.
You're backed by the hostcountry to be the ones that sell
notes.
I may not be there right away.
You're backed by the hostcountry to be the ones that sell
notes.
I mean, you're doing so manythings when you're doing it at
(08:29):
risk that you.
It's really people where Iremember going to the conference
where they they said you knowreally of this, you can die from
this.
This is no joke.
I mean didn't even if he wassomething that will change
within a second, and before youknow it, you know somebody has a
gun on you or something or aknife, and before your team gets
you and backs you up, you canbe.
So this is big at Torrance andpeople are like no, no, no, no,
(08:52):
no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no,no, no, no for this.
So, yeah, you have to have, Iwant to say, a little bit nuts
to want to do it.
Speaker 3 (09:09):
Yeah, so you know, concerning your interest with
money laundering and stuff likethat, is that is undercover work
, like is that how you catchmost of those money laundering
things, or is it like just abunch of cash rolls up and
you're putting the dots together?
Speaker 2 (09:25):
No, no, no Digital waste.
There are different avenues.
One type of work is just onetool in your toolbox.
I mean you have agents that aredoing work.
It's counting work that youfollow the source, the
intelligence where the moneyreports from banks, suspicious
activity reports in banks.
Suspicious activity reports inbanks leads from fencing, which
(09:49):
is a financial intelligence unitin the US, and agents will
follow the trail, follow thebreadcrumbs, use subpoenas,
grand juries to the banks, theaccountants.
You interview people you getwarned for, let's say, books,
accountants, information.
That's one avenue, but theother avenue is in the cover
(10:10):
work, where you are able toreduce yourself to longer
people's money.
I mean you set up entities orbusinesses in an under-common
capacity and you yourself mightas sure don't earn your money.
So you're raising illicit fundsand placing them within some
type of financial institution,whether it's a business with
(10:31):
bank accounts, et cetera and youmove the money, cover the money
as gains or proceeds of thosebusinesses, so when it comes out
on the other side to the bank,he can claim it in whatever
country he's in, wherever he is.
Oh, this is money from suchbusiness, so don't be so mean.
You've covered up his originsthrough financial businesses and
(10:53):
there you end up collectingintel and evidence on those
individuals because now theycommitted the overt act of
hiding the money, which is acrime in itself.
On those individuals, becausenow they committed the overact
of hiding the money, which is acrime in itself.
And you're moving millions forthem.
And the thing is that when youdevelop a good rapport with a
(11:16):
certain organization and theystart to trust you, then they
start using you as theiraccountant to pay their bills.
You know, let's, for example,you move a million dollars for
them.
They're happy with you, soyou're able to move more money
for them.
They trust you.
Now they say, hey, can you pay$200,000 to Mr John Smith,
(11:40):
captain, so-and-so Okay, smith,captain, so-and-so Okay.
Can you pay another $400,000 toABC Chemicals in, let's say,
taiwan or somewhere, china?
Can you pay so-and-so?
So now you become paying theirbills.
Now you have to identify theorganization.
Oh, john Smith, he's a captain.
(12:01):
He runs a ship off the coast ofthe Caribbean Interesting,
let's look at that.
Oh, abc Chemicals.
He's a captain.
He runs a ship off the coast ofthe Caribbean Interesting,
let's look at that.
Oh, abc Chemicals out of Chinaor Taiwan, let's look at that.
It could be the precursorcompany that's providing the
precursor chemicals to make thenew products, or so on.
So and so so you startidentifying, you develop your
trust in the current capacity.
Then you look in theorganization and you get
developed or trust in thecurrent capacity.
(12:22):
Then you're not going to work inthe organization.
Speaker 3 (12:25):
And then those in turn become like referrals for
new assignments.
Potentially right, correct.
Speaker 2 (12:31):
Yeah, those end up becoming independent
investigations, sort of what wecall like walled off so you
don't get burned as it becomes.
Speaker 3 (12:41):
Gotcha.
Gotcha, Because at that pointyou're pretty valuable, because
people are referring you toother people and to lose that
status would be devastating tothat whole investigation, right?
Speaker 2 (13:05):
and way better and they've probably even done more.
I know they have done more thanme and more riskier, but in the
time that I've had I was ableto work into uh undercover
operations and doing moneylaundering.
Uh, I was able to work in.
Believe it, when we dointellectuals, um, we call ipr
and uh, of course, theelectronics and the human
support and new products.
(13:25):
You're basically offeringservices, transport services
that for a while in the maritimeindustry, pick up the loads,
(13:46):
bring them out and we, you knowyou can provide the cover load
to hide the narcotics in and youmay.
You charge them for a, for a,for a fee, a percentage in money
.
We move the money for them Inhumans.
We offer, again, transportationto bring people across the
border for them and these peopleand these, these illegals
immigrants, they becomewitnesses and so I have to
(14:08):
cooperate.
So there are different avenuesthat you can use undercover in
the intellectual property rightsin the arena, mostly we try to
concentrate not on fakemerchandise like you know, the
glass you can use your stufflike fake Apple phones, which
(14:30):
are mostly in health safety,health and safety Cases, like
fake pharmaceutical sales offake drugs such as hope medicine
, cancer medicine, a lot of thatstuff that you find on the
Internet.
So I did undercover work with agood agent, an excellent agent
(14:52):
out of Houston fake meds fordogs and these meds were like
tick medications for fleas andtick and it was huge.
It involved the Great Britain.
We worked with Leonard.
He was coming out of India.
It was in the hundreds ofmillions of dollars to fraud and
(15:15):
the case ended up being wheresomeone's merchandise got into
legitimate and being sold inmajor brand stores stuff like
that.
We had one with cancer medicine.
Heart medicine went to India.
Then we come over there inIndia and people bring medicines
for the heart conditions andyet it's the stuff doesn't and
(15:39):
the stuff that's in it isdangerous
itself and these people areputting it in their lives.
And so we found that that is abig business, especially in the
West, because with the cost ofmedicine.
So we went in and did our caseson the current work behind
these medicines so we can thenlead us to the actual supplier
(16:01):
by bigger rooms, leading us intomore, to the factories so they
can show us their operationswith big loads and made us
because we'll become their bestpartners or their best customers
in order then to extradite themto the US, and because a lot of
people die from this stuff.
We had a case that was withtourniquets you know those
(16:23):
tourniquets that you put on whenyou're bleeding out and they
were fainted and some of thesetourniquets were being supplied
to local police departments anddifferent government entities in
other countries and stuff likethat.
It doesn't sound as sexy as oohso you can go out and bring
money for some terrorist groupor something, but in that arena
(16:48):
it's important because it'saffecting rural people and
making because it's it's a, it'saffecting real people and
making a buck of somebody'smisery.
But yeah, I got exposed into Imean I could get into more
specific one case in the carwhere we were working with um
licensing stuff that were peoplemaking hundreds of millions of
(17:11):
dollars selling fake licensesfor, like, microsoft software
and we're everybody got somemajor distributor so we're sexy,
but they were making, hurtingthe businesses and hundreds of
millions of dollars.
But the sexy ones thatexcitement have the excitement
with the takedown and guns.
(17:32):
That's mostly what you want tobring to your product's business
.
Speaker 3 (17:36):
Gotcha.
And so how long were you doingthat for before you are, you
know, gotten to what you'redoing now?
Speaker 2 (17:43):
So I.
So I've been in the long runbetween inspector and special
agent 35 years.
I returned in the end of 2022.
I did undercover work for 10years.
The undercover work.
I got exposed to do some greatstuff, the methodology of the
(18:05):
undercover work and I won't getinto specific on the backstop,
but I'll give you a differentidentity on that um and I'm
gonna uh when I retire.
Um, I'm sort of looking to seewhat I could.
I was putting my name out therein my resume and I've had a few
offers um in complaints, youknow, retention clients, uh,
(18:29):
money laundering, compliance,looking for suspicious
activities from a couple banksand so on.
But I just didn't feel it.
And then this organizationwhich is called Operation of the
Marlboro we have some friendsthat worked there who were
former agents also got word ofme.
They were also retiring.
(18:50):
They always like panama.
I worked as uh here, pam, forfour years as uh, as uh with the
uh, some shades and office withthe homeless security
investigations and I fell inlove with him and I call panama
man.
Like you don't have to have,like you know, but light or
Light or Bud, this I call itMiami Light.
So it's a good place to live agreat place for expats.
(19:13):
So I came down.
They offered me hey, would youlike to come to work for UO,
right here in the Army Room, atthe end of 2022.
And I remember I was on a longterm team.
Why would I want to?
I mean long term.
It was almost a year.
Returned to TY and I cut my TYshirt short and changed the date
(19:38):
on my papers retirement papersand retired.
And retired one day and startedworking for OUR the next day,
literally.
And then three days later I wasin Honduras doing work,
literally.
And then three days later I wasin honduras doing much right
away.
Yeah, so what you are is uh,it's uh came out in the movie uh
, sound of freedom that's verypopular in the us, developed by
(20:00):
uh, uh this proving my angelstudios.
Uh, the story of an hsi agentwho fed up with bureaucracy and
uh quit and started thisfoundation or this NGO,
non-profit NGO, non-governmentorganization and I ended up
looking for them.
I felt it was God's work, Ifelt that it was.
(20:21):
They took it over offers fromthe other private sector.
As I mentioned earlier,compliance was, it was right and
uh, I just felt it in my heartand it's something.
My whole life came from thewest, like I said, I started
(20:43):
really saying I'm originallycalled cheese here in wisconsin
came from wisconsin and bigwestern values and the Latin
culture of family and closenessand helping each other and
Christian values of helping afellow man.
So my whole life has been aboutthat.
My parents taught me is aboutgiving to others, giving to the
(21:04):
community, always do what youcan for everyone.
So it was ingrained in me, soit was natural for me to accept
the job with OUR, and here I am,opened up offices here in
Panama and Central America andwe're strictly rescuing
(21:24):
exploited sexual trafficking,sexual exploitation, trafficking
of women and children, andthere's work to be done here in
Central America Right now.
Presently it's a two-partapproach.
(21:45):
We help the local lawenforcement, the prosecutors, in
trainings and capacity buildingand guide them in
investigations.
We help the local lawenforcement, the prosecutors, in
trainings and capacity buildingand guide them in
investigations and if need be,if we're authorized, if need be,
we'll bring in retiredpersonnel to go and collect
intelligence on the groundutilized by the host government.
We're not doing this out on theroad, you know, we don't want
(22:08):
to get jammed.
And the other part is, afterthe rescue.
A lot of the sponsors don'thave the resources to help the
children or the women, and thewomen need attention, uh,
psychological trauma, medicalattention.
Um, we try to empower the womento fulfill their dreams or even
help them with careers andgrowing up so they can become
(22:29):
independent and not reallygetting duped by some trafficker
, probably seeing a better world.
For example, we've hadoperations in Honduras and
locations where we've workedwith one enforcement and taken
our organizations.
I remember one place we did anoperation and we were able to
(22:51):
get four different organizationsto bring girls um like for
alleged clients.
And well, those girls are like,10 of them were like, 40 were
minors under the age of 15, andthen then out of those, two of
them were pregnant when we tookthem to the hospitals and did
(23:18):
the triage.
Once you rescue them, so itends a.
Today, sexual slavery orslavery is more prevalent than
ever in the history of humankindand I wanted to get into this
and we're able to do good here.
We're rescuing children, we'rerunning into actual
organizations that arerecognized, that they're
(23:39):
operating in, uh well, 40 or socountries around the world,
everywhere from like Thailand,australia, middle East, europe,
africa, south America, centralAmerica, and it's $150 million
operation yearly.
You know, in profit it's thethird highest revenue gaining
(24:02):
illicit activity, afternarcotics and weapon smuggling.
It's number three according tothe United Nations numbers.
But I've been able to rescuesome children here, some women
Women are and we have this issuewith their open borders in the
US.
The US says, oh, we don't haveopen borders.
Well, you know, right, you knowwhere I stand on that.
(24:25):
It's just coming along, theissue here with these women
coming across Panama, the DariénGap in families.
They come looking for a betterlife.
But there are people alwaystaking advantage of the
situation of these people thatare coming, their families
coming across Now the borderhere in Panama, in Colombia.
It's a jungle.
They've been down there manytimes.
(24:46):
They've been down there manytimes and that place is no joke.
I mean, they got beetles biggerthan your fist, they got snakes
, they got canines, they'reeverything.
And the heat, the hydrationalone will kill you and people
die in that road and you havepeople taking advantage.
(25:12):
So this migration that's goingon to the US, to me it's like
American history, indians, theTrail of Tears how the Indians
were being migrated and movedand so many Indians died along
the route where they were beingrelocated in the US.
Some thousands of people diedin these trails and the
organized cartels are takingadvantage of the situations.
(25:32):
So you have something fromsmuggling.
Human smuggling turns intotrafficking with the instance
where they grab these people andthey tell them yeah, 10 grand,
take it to the US.
They sell everything.
They only give you, let's say,4,000 in front, along the way
they get to Panama and CostaRica or Honduras and say you
know what?
I'm yours for another $2,000.
Speaker 1 (25:54):
Well you can't give it to us?
Speaker 2 (25:55):
Guess what we're going to work for it.
Where you're going, she's goingto be working herself as a
prostitute in this club.
You, your wife's going to beworking at a hotel cleaning
sheets or whatever.
Now you can force leave.
Now that into you pay.
You never come up with those$2,000 interest incurred and
additional that they say thatthey've incurred.
(26:17):
So then you move on to the nextstage in the room.
So from a trip that you'relooking for a better life, it
turns into a need for some ofthese people who's smuggling
into trafficking.
And you're looking for a betterlife, it turns into a need for
some of these people who aresmuggling into trafficking and
you never hear from them againsometimes.
So we've seen that organizedand women that are also brought
(26:40):
into, taken from here to Easterncountry Europeans and other
places with false promises Well,we'll get you a better job,
you're going to earn so muchmoney a month.
Then next thing thing you knowthey get there and they're
saying now they take theirpassports and your
documentations and they'reworking in some club.
um and uh they can't get up andthey say well, people, uh,
(27:04):
police, or go for help.
Well, theseickers, when theyrecruit you in these centuries,
they ask you like oh, so he'slike a farm hey, you know, it
could be.
It's a good journey, but just incase, as you're on a city with
your tons of somebody you carehusband, wife, someone that
(27:29):
you're dear to and they say yes,so-and-so, okay, great.
So when they're trying to helpyou, they put you to work
somewhere as a prostitute orforced labor or something, and
they'll say listen, if you actup, you run away and you call
the police.
We have your documents, yourpassports, but here, who
recruited you in that town?
He will take a picture of yourmother, of your kids or your
(27:53):
relative and they'll send it tohim via WhatsApp or one of these
apps and they'll show it to you.
They'll say you know what?
See this?
This was 10 minutes ago.
If your mother or your familyyou behave, shit is going to
happen to them, so that's howthey keep them in control.
So we do a lot of work of thisstuff.
I'm being detailed about this,but we're doing a lot of good
(28:15):
work and all of thisorganization is privately funded
by donors and we're doing goodand I'm very proud and if you're
on to be working with thisorganization, because anything I
can do to help save childrenfrom this evil, evil, immoral
crime of women.
For me it's hopefully God takesa notice and say hey, thank you
(28:39):
.
Speaker 3 (28:40):
So like when you know I'm very much a lay person in
this, you know experience, I'venever.
I've been to Central Americaand South America a couple of
times but um, you know, for workand you know it's just kind of
like when you're there for acouple of days you just everyone
just see, you, you're almostthe exotic person, you know, and
(29:02):
everyone's just kind of goingabout their day.
Um, and then you know, you hearabout the migration from South
America to coming through Mexicoand in the US.
But there's people like thatthat get caught up in, you know,
say, in Central America andthey don't make it to the US,
they get kind of shipped out toEurope and other countries.
That happens pretty prevalentlyor pretty rarely.
Speaker 2 (29:26):
It happens.
I wouldn't say prevalently, butmore than normal it happens.
I always say prevalent, butmore than normal.
They will approach them and sayI can offer you, we can take
you to Paris or we can.
I'll give you a specific caseTo a local group.
They do it to the migrants thatare moving to the locals and
(29:50):
they'll tell them listen, I knowit's tough, the economy is bad,
you can't find jobs.
We have some jobs for you inEurope.
We're going to take you.
You're going to make about1,000 to 1,600 euros a month.
They'll give you a contract tosign.
It's working at some naturecities or at some fancy
(30:11):
restaurant or club.
It's for tourists.
In either case, these women wererecruited.
One of the female recruiters itwas a couple actually flew with
them and flew home, but theyended up.
They flew them to Turkey.
In Turkey, they were handed offto a gentleman and drove them
(30:36):
to Kosovo.
And next thing, you know theirpractices are taken and they're
working at a high-end club, abar club, with VIP prostitution
rooms, and so they're workingthere.
They're like, oh my God, withVIP prostitution rooms, and so
they're working there.
They're like, oh my God.
(30:58):
They were able to get a messageout and we were able the
organization, we were able torescue them and bring them back
to Canada.
We'll pay for the trips, theirairfare and give them assistance
here.
So you have migrants, let's say,coming out of Venezuela or
Colombia.
They get here.
(31:18):
They're like hey, listen, greatjob for you over here, we'll
take you over here, here's yourcontract, it's a contract,
everything else and they putthem to work.
So, yes, I would say it'sprevalent um, where they're just
trying to make a gift of lifeand they don't realize what
(31:39):
they're getting into, sometimesthe dangers about these
predators that are out therelooking for that.
I've been to chile and in chileyou have, we have a trend.
There's a game called now Trende Armas.
It's moving through Venezuela,the movement across, and even
now in the US they're great avery group.
(31:59):
So I was in Chile working for awhile on a conference and we
hooked up with the police downthere and I went driving through
the cities of cities, ofdowntown, and you have a lot of
Venezuelans that have also goneto Chile looking for a better
life.
And the Tren de Aragua gangmembers come out the streets
(32:21):
looking for young girls andthey're looking, they're
profiling and what they're doingis they're looking at.
Okay, here's a 20 somethingyear old girl.
She looks like she's going togo for an interview and she's
moving around with folders andrepeating what her resume is in.
So that's what they're lookingfor.
And they're hey, I got this foryou, baba, you know.
(32:45):
And they promised them, hey,let's have a coffee next thing.
You know, they got theirpassports, they got them
controlled and they're workingin a apartment building where
they're controlled and they'rebeing prosecuted.
And they didn't cooperate.
The girls had them have to.
For every job that they worked,they got to give a percentage.
(33:06):
And if they hold anything, orthey don't want or they refuse,
what they do is they shame thegirl's head.
So everyone in the communityand all the friends know that,
hey, she's from the thing around, but she didn't do what she had
to do to shame them and thepeople.
And they extort the localbusinessmen.
And also another scam they gotgoing on and if they don't pay,
(33:32):
they give them the leg foot.
They shoot them in the leg orthe foot, so they're limping.
So it puts a message out whenthe merchant's walking around
and he's limping yeah, he didn'tdo what he had to do, pay us.
So they're like the new MS--13,ms-18 of south america, central
america so to do undercoverwork?
Speaker 3 (33:55):
are you mainly like um, like going to the places
where these people end up, orlike um, or do you trying to get
them in?
You know, but before they getthere in rote, like how does
that work?
Speaker 2 (34:07):
no, I'm not.
I'm not doing, doing like here.
I'm not doing the governmentpanel, obviously because I'm in
the public life here, but inother countries we'll the
organization we try not to do,because of liability issues, too
much of the work.
It's only as one adds to thepost-government that they need
(34:29):
someone to go in they're anAmerican or European into those
to collect intel information forthem at their request.
We'll do it.
We're not setting up theseprivate parties to come over to
this house because we don't wantto bring up the clause of
(34:51):
entrapment.
But going in and talking topossible girls in there or their
managers, or bartender or lawenforcement cops that they don't
know how to do this, or retiredguys, we can get the red flags
or the basic evidence, um, totake it to the next level for
(35:14):
law enforcement, to take it tothe next level in these
countries.
And uh, and you can see thetall tape.
You say you can look at see ifthe woman looks too young.
Or you can ask her uh, you canask, you can find now if she's
trafficked or she can't goanywhere.
(35:36):
Simple questions, because a lotof them they'll take their
travel documents or passports.
So let's say you find a girlthat says she's from Colombia,
venezuela or some country,honduras, in this location here
in Costa Rica, or Colombia andVenezuela or some country in
Honduras in this location herein Costa Rica, in a club, and
(35:56):
you tell her something.
Well, how do you try to findout without right up asking them
?
Did they take your documents?
No, you say, hey, I'm reallycute, you're really cute, I
really like you.
You know what Can you get outof here?
You know, for a couple days, mytree and they'll say, no, well,
(36:19):
yeah, I can go out, but youhave to pay the house more money
to leave the premises.
No, no, no, like I want to takeyou to Mexico with the
Dominican Republic.
You tell, tell a country thatyou got to know countries where
visas are not for certain people, for certain countries, and you
(36:39):
go yeah, let's go to theDominican Republic you go to.
Cancun.
I'll take you all expensesthree days.
No, I can't.
No, no, it's okay, I can't, andyou go why, why can't you?
no, you know I can't.
Okay, for all those days youknow more than you would make
(37:00):
here and eventually they'll say,no, they have my birth
certificate.
They can't tell me.
And so that, right, there isone of the elements of
trafficking.
By then simply saying that theycan't vote with you, that could
(37:22):
be a flat, that they're beingtracked, that they're being held
there because their documentsare being controlled.
So, even if they don't rightout say it, the fact that they
tell you no, they can't, that'san indicator to go to the next
level.
On the investigation Simplestuff, simple trick like that
will go into location to getthat.
On the investigation Simplestuff, simple trick like that.
(37:42):
We'll go into location to getthat type of intel.
But it's not that we'reknocking down doors, you know,
like a SWAT team.
No, no, no, that's the hostgovernment, that's their job,
that's their responsibility.
We'll just provide the inteland assist them in every way we
can.
But the number one way,primarily for us, is to build up
(38:03):
the law enforcement to get tothat level of efficiency, of
professionalism and becomeexperts themselves so they can
do it themselves.
There are certain things theycan do.
Sometimes you need a lookingform to collect that intel for
you.
Speaker 3 (38:21):
Gotcha, gotcha looking for a particular man to
let that intel for you.
Operation Underground Railroadonly works in countries where
they're like they want the help.
Speaker 2 (38:29):
No, no, no, We'll go out and engage and make contact
with the countries and sometimeswe'll start working there
period and get them to know usand the good that we can do and
what we can bring to the table.
But I would say, yeah, most ofthe time they want us there,
(38:51):
they welcome our assistance,especially when we're helping
the aftercare, the victims orthe survivors after their health
, because we're helping themwith some of those and then, um,
we help with like medicine, asmentioned before in psychology
(39:13):
treatments.
Um, we'll help them.
Let's say, we're still ruraland she says I want to stay in
this country, I don't want to gobetween your country.
I want to learn how to becomean office manager in some
business, you know, like, I wantto learn how to become
certified in Microsoft System,adobe, excel and use all that.
(39:34):
So we'll find like a school.
Or I want to learn a trade.
We'll find a school for thattrade and pay the tuition.
And then we'll tell them okay,it's to you now.
You have to show up, you haveto pass, you have to take the
(39:56):
courses.
By then doing that, they'rebecoming self-reliant, they're
learning to become whole again.
You're empowering them and thenhelp them also to find jobs.
That's so they don't.
The cycle does not continue,what we call break the chain.
(40:17):
You know that old adage you cangive a guy a fish, but if you
teach him not continue what wecall break the chain.
You know, you know that old,that old adage you know.
You know you can give a guy afish, but if you teach him how
to fish, it's instead of givingthe fish and teach him how to
finish it, he won't go home.
So basically, that's thephilosophy and these women can,
um, we sometimes even help themset up businesses.
(40:39):
We have some have set up smallbusinesses, small entrepreneurs,
and they've become successful.
Some continue to go on into themedical field.
We've helped them get into itand then they themselves have
gone on and gotten scholarshipsand move on.
(41:00):
We had one girl in Honduras whoher dream was just to finish
high school.
She was there to finish highschool.
She said that her life was born.
Her life began the day she wasrescued.
She was probably at the time, Ithink, like 14 years old.
(41:23):
She graduated recently and onher classroom graduation ring on
her finger she took a picture,sent it to us.
On the inside of her ring sheput the date not of graduation,
the date that she was rescuedyou are out of graduation.
(41:45):
The date that she was rescuedby you are and and the host
country law enforcement.
So, um, to have the greatestfeeling is when you rescue some
of these women that's it'shappened to me is, um, when they
come back later, after a coupleweeks, that they're calm, their
brain is is settled, they'regotten over the shock.
It's a lot going on and you'remeeting with them and they come
(42:08):
and they give you a hug and theysay thank you, thank you for
saving my life, thank you, andthat's better than a million
bucks because you know you justimpacted someone's life, so
you're blessed.
I believe that if you canimpact one person's life, you're
(42:29):
blessed.
Speaker 3 (42:31):
Definitely, definitely.
So, yeah, I think that's got tobe like the most rewarding part
of the whole thing, right, isafterwards seeing some of these
people go from hell to you knowsomething prosperous and
productive.
Are there what?
What's, um, like, what's theworst countries?
What are, what are some of thecountries that are like screw
you guys, we don't want you,we're taking care of the problem
(42:52):
ourselves or not?
Speaker 2 (42:54):
and uh, and like where it's not even worth
dealing with no question I Idon't know because I haven't
spoken to the other countries orthe management about that.
I know that here in CentralAmerica and in South America
they want us, they beg us tocome in and we need more help.
We need more assistance Becausenot just the resources, the
(43:17):
financial that we bring, thetraining, the capacity building,
we also help with awareness andeducation.
The biggest threat, like fornow, in the exploitation of
children or children becomingvictims, is the ease of social
(43:39):
media, social apps.
So you have a lot of predatorsand people on these social apps
talking to kids and enticingthem, getting up to a location
where they can actually meet anddo something with them, to them
.
So it's we try to also help outin education on the pearls of
(44:03):
you know, monitoring the dangersof social applications and
helping local law enforcementdevelop their capabilities in
the cybernetic and internetarena to proactively be out
there looking for thesepredators and helping those
countries in legislationupdating their legislation to
(44:25):
reflect the new times and newtechnologies that are out there.
That were kids becomevulnerable to these predators
and they end up these kids endup being sexually trafficked and
sexually used let's go back toyour government work.
Speaker 1 (44:45):
Give me an example of what's the most frightening
circumstance you faced, notnecessarily in an undercover
role, but in general.
You know, and I'll be straightwith you on this, we had a very
lack of Hispanic agents when Istarted.
(45:07):
Okay, believe it or not it was,it was a very.
All you did was undercover.
I mean, with the drug wars withthe Cubans and the Colombians,
you would get that phone call 10o'clock at night.
Go out.
You got to be the UC, I mean me.
A guy from Massachusetts couldnot go out and buy from drugs
(45:31):
from Colombians or go out and doa money pickup.
Okay, what I'm asking you isbasically what kind of
undercover did what kind of work?
What challenging stuff have youbeen actually not scared but
you had to pay attention toright away?
Speaker 2 (45:52):
Oh my God, the key for me, the most difficult thing
, was the details.
The detail, the slightest,smallest thing could give you
(46:14):
away who you were.
And one of the biggest issuesto overcome understanding the
Spanish culture for me was a lotof the narcotics guys or the
Latinos in the Hispaniccommunity that were involved in
the illicit trade and narcoticsand mail laundering are very
(46:37):
superstitious.
Some of my laundry are verysuperstitious and Toby you,
coming also from Miami, youunderstand a lot would be
involved in santeria, likevoodoo, magic santeria and all
this stuff.
And if they met with you andthey got a bad vibe, bad feeling
(47:00):
, you had to be careful how youdressed, what you spoke, your
mannerism, any little thing.
They would look at you and theydidn't like your pants, the
color of your shirt.
Right away you're a cop or thedeal is off.
So the key thing for me wasmaking sure that I not didn't
(47:22):
trigger something um on him.
I I had a case one time and uh,the uh, the guy started probed
me and they were Mexicans andthe thing was they were just
(47:47):
looking at me and my PuertoRican accent right.
And here I am and they're justlike.
I knew what they were thinking.
I knew they were like is thisnot a cop?
Why is this?
And I just have to make surethat the details matter for me
(48:07):
and the biggest thing is it wasthat.
And the other thing was I gotscared one time when I was doing
a deal and I was meeting withsome people in.
It was, I believe it was, in StWarren.
We were on the Dutch side andthese guys were.
(48:31):
They were Colombians and wewere picking up major, major
money and we were able the Dutchto get to get her phones and we
had an initial meeting and theywere just talking about you
know what is.
(48:52):
Are these guys for real?
It was like the first meetingand we had to make a phone call
we're going to meet with them ornot?
Even though they had doubts,they weren't sure it was big
money.
We had the meeting but I had tomake sure that my cover team
and myself I was totally fleeingand and it's the whole thing is
(49:12):
for me, the terror has beenworking in foreign country,
taking up money.
My thing has always been, notso much in Syria but in some of
the Latin countries where theyallow us to operate, is are the
people that are covering me thatwe try to limit who knows who I
(49:33):
am.
Are they're the ones?
Speaker 1 (49:36):
who are gonna give me ?
Speaker 2 (49:37):
up.
So you always have that fear.
I can't be reminded.
I remember one time when Ifirst got to Panama here I was
not.
This is not on the cover.
Give me an idea.
My first week here I get a case.
(49:57):
I had to go to the clone freezone.
I just met these cops.
The guys that worked with meknew them.
This is the first time I metthem.
It took me three days to goalong in the Free Zone.
We come back.
We end up with $7 million incash that was being shipped to
Columbia.
I'm coming back, for example, ona country road, one lane, going
(50:18):
one lane coming, climb throughhills back and forth at you know
, one in the morning with $7million, four vehicles.
I'm the only agent.
The rest are local cops and I'mthinking I just met these guys
three days ago.
My buddies vouch for them.
But you know, do I trust theseguys?
(50:42):
Are we going to get ambushed onthis road, dark road?
You know these cops, local cops.
You know for this kind of money.
You know put a bullet in andyou know take the money an
ambush on me.
So these are the real thingsthat you deal with as an
undercover and when you're inthe field, when you're working,
(51:02):
especially in a foreignenvironment, with stuff like
that.
My biggest concern was thesmallest details, things like
when they're prepping thematerials for you, really giving
the undercover meaning.
Is everything up to date?
If you set up an apartment, isthe apartment up to date?
(51:22):
Is the food in the refrigeratorin the undercover office?
Is it good?
You can't have anything that'sexpired.
You can't have anything that'sif it needs to complain.
You don't have pictures ofyourself with family and friends
or something in your office, inyour undercover office, then it
looks fake.
It has to look real.
Speaker 1 (51:42):
The details matter.
Speaker 2 (51:43):
They pay attention to the details how you're dressed,
your shoes, the jewelry you'rewearing.
If you're playing a businessman, are your nails fixed?
Are your nails done properlymanicured?
Are you playing a constructionworker?
Are your hands coarse?
And you say, yeah, I meanconstruction, only life.
But yet you have the hands ofthe permanent owner.
(52:05):
You know the details and a lotof times not every undercover
can do all types of undercover,like I did not do street corner
or construction undercover,biker.
I didn't fit.
That person Mostly stuck towhite collar type money
(52:29):
laundering stuff.
Well, you have other guys thatcan do corner, street stuff,
that can do bikers.
So management needs to knowyour abilities and where you fit
in.
You can't force the circle intothe square, and sometimes they
(52:50):
do, and that's when things gowrong.
I don't know if I put morethere than your question.
You know totally want to answer, but it's somewhat aligned to
the details.
Speaker 1 (53:00):
Yeah, it comes down to screening.
It comes down to screening theright person for the assignment
and especially with somethinglike that.
I mean, you know the work I'vedone as a PI on Persona Non
Grata in Venezuela.
Because of the work that wasdone.
Speaker 2 (53:17):
Yeah, don't let them put you in jail.
Speaker 1 (53:19):
What's that?
Yeah, they would, and you knowthat We've talked about this
both when you were with thegovernment and since.
But yeah, I'm not going to getthe welcome wagon if I go back.
But at the same time, being agringo for call it a lesser word
worked to my advantage, becausewhen I was down there until I
(53:42):
was told to leave by Ledea thatit worked because I was able to
blend in and get things done.
But you're right, it has to bearound the situation and you
have to pick the right person.
Situation and you have to pickthe right person.
(54:05):
I think what you've explainedwell is, once the children and
the women are rescued, they gothrough a process of
psychological job placement.
I don't think that has beenaddressed in Sound of Freedom
and I don't think theorganization that you work for
people don't realize it is asocial service component for
these victims and I thought youdid a great job explaining that,
(54:26):
because the public just knowsyou rescue and there's a happy
ending afterwards, but there issevere psychological trauma to
any any of these ladies thathave been through that, Correct?
Speaker 2 (54:41):
Yes, yes, as a matter of fact, our biggest part of
our budget, that we spend thebiggest chunk, the largest chunk
is for survivor care, helpingthem after their rescue.
Speaker 1 (54:56):
Okay, and let me ask you this, since, as far as the
individuals that are traffickingthem and they're prosecuted in
country, what kind of sentencesdo they get down in Central
America and you know, NorthernColumbia and stuff like that?
Speaker 2 (55:16):
It's, various countries are, and everything
based on the Korean UnitedNations established definition
of what is trafficking andelected Panama, I think it
starts at seven years is thelowest sentence.
(55:38):
Each country is a little bitdifferent.
Um, they, they're, they'restringent.
Um, I know panama is trying toraise it something to like 12,
15 years sentence.
Um, the countries are similar.
Um, I don't know the othercountry specific, but it's a
country, it's, it's verystraight.
(55:58):
Um, they, especially in latLatin cultures, because, you
know, overall, you know kids areeverything.
You know most cultures, youknow, I think, from the Italians
, the Latins, you know families,everything, our children are
the most precious things to us.
So I mean, I've seen inGuatemala and also in Honduras
(56:20):
and other countries, where theycatch somebody with a child,
they won't even let the cops getinvolved.
The whole village will come outand torture them alive.
You know they'll do the, youknow like put the tires around
the person, put gasoline andthen line them up and God forbid
the cops try to step in.
Speaker 1 (56:42):
Don't lynch the cops yeah, no, that's uh, that's how
it is.
I, uh you talked about santaria.
Uh, for those people that don'tknow, it's uh, it's quite a
phenomenon.
It's a mix of african religionwith catholicism.
And we used to have the boats.
They would put chicken blood onthe customs boats.
(57:04):
Remember that.
And I actually did a searchwarrant on a case one of my
Evelyn Bison Papa, who I'll betied to the rest of my life with
her arrest and release.
One of the principals in therehad a Santero altar in West
Kendall and we went in and theyhad a box for an Uzi machine gun
(57:29):
in there and one of the agentsthe guy wasn't going to talk and
when he was face down facingthe altar, we asked him donde
esta pistola?
My Spanish, but he had it inthe attic directly above.
So you're right, the wholeculture is different and they're
(57:52):
going to size you up too.
Your accent was different andhow you dress.
If you dress with nice shoes,they know that they think that
you have money and then whenthey go to your office, if you
have a generic office with noprotocol of family pictures or
things like that, then it'sgoing to be suspicious and put
(58:16):
you in danger.
So, matt, where do you see?
I have one more question andI'll let Jeff go when do you see
the program?
How is it continuing withOperation Underground Railroad?
What are the future objectivesthat you have?
Speaker 2 (58:35):
All right, we are moving still in heavily in
assisting the healthcareproactively.
I think we're moving or I'veseen at least here in Panama
we're trying to move them moreto local cops, to cybernetic
(58:59):
area where we can develop unitsin Panama proactively.
Child exploitation images thatpeople move in the black web or
(59:27):
through certain platforms,cryptic platforms, pornographic
material, children.
So for me, panama would be abig push for that, because in
certain countries Colombia,costa Rica and some of Central
America you still have a lot ofsexual tourism and some of these
(59:49):
people come down here for halfsex with children.
Sometimes they like to takepictures or have a trophy.
They like to take pictures orhave a trophy, but they'll start
and you'll have local predatorslooking through social media
(01:00:10):
enticing kids.
So I want to expand that herein Central America a proactive
system.
We can assist them withsoftware and training the law
enforcement in this matter andadjusting the laws to that so
they can prosecute these peopleonline looking for sharing these
(01:00:33):
images and or looking for kidsonline to get them to meet
somewhere.
Kids online to get them to meetsomewhere um the evening or that
, because as technology evolves,things evolve, um, the police
have to keep up and they don't.
Sometimes they don't have theresources, like sometimes we do
in the states, um to to do thisand keep it up.
And the reason we had to do itwith them is because this is
(01:00:56):
something that we as a privateentity can't do.
It has to be authorized lawenforcement that can do this and
have possession of these images.
I mean, if we were to do that,a contractor that I would hire
to help me, I mean they wouldn'thave been jailed just for the
mere possession of an image orrecruiting for someone sending
(01:01:17):
them an image.
It has to be law enforcement,or recruiting or someone sending
them an image.
It has to be law enforcement.
We can help them in thetechnology.
How do you approach?
How do you speak online?
How do you cover your IPs?
How do you set up fake profilesto proactively be out there
looking for these onlineprinters?
Speaker 1 (01:01:35):
I just have to tell you you had the fastest
retirement I've ever seen.
I'm talking to you and thenlet's see.
You left on a Friday and youstarted the new job on a Monday.
Speaker 2 (01:01:48):
Yeah, it was quick.
Speaker 1 (01:01:51):
That's legendary.
It's not quick, it's legendaryto do something like that.
To do something like that.
We've had some guests that haveretired in like two weeks and
that but two days.
That's a record, my friend.
I look forward to seeing yousoon and best, and what a view
(01:02:12):
you have down there, it'samazing.
Speaker 2 (01:02:14):
Hey man, both of you, come on down to Kessler.
You got a path torasher.
Speaker 1 (01:02:19):
Come enjoy Miami Light as I call it, miami.
Speaker 3 (01:02:22):
Light.
I like that Sign me up.
Thanks a lot, Ruben.
Appreciate it.
Speaker 1 (01:02:26):
Thank you, Ruben Bye.
Speaker 3 (01:02:27):
Take care guys.
Speaker 1 (01:02:28):
See you.
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