Ep 13: Dave Gaddis - Battling Drug Cartels and Navigating Undercover Operations

Curious about what it takes to bring down major drug cartels? Join us for an eye-opening conversation with Dave Gaddis, a retired DEA agent whose career spans some of the most intense eras and locations in narcotics enforcement. From his early days inspired by his Green Beret father, to overcoming vision-related hurdles that led him to the DEA, Dave's journey is a testament to resilience and dedication. We talk about his book, "The Noble Experiment," where he shares stories aimed at giving the public—and his own children—a glimpse into the gritty reality of federal law enforcement.

Ever wondered how undercover operations really work? Dave Gaddis takes us through the complexities of managing informants and the invaluable street survival tactics he learned in Miami's volatile drug scene. Hear about the diverse backgrounds of DEA trainees, ranging from NYPD officers to former fast-food managers, and how their unique skills contributed to a united mission. Dave recounts his undercover assignments in Miami and Costa Rica, and the strategic relationships he formed with informants that were crucial for cracking major drug cases.

As we tackle contemporary issues like the fentanyl crisis and cannabis regulation, Dave offers his expert insights on the critical need to halt the flow of dangerous drugs into the U.S. and debates whether the ATF or DEA should regulate cannabis. We also reflect on the evolution of drug enforcement policies and the enduring camaraderie among agents in this high-pressure field. Don't miss this episode packed with compelling stories and expert perspectives from a career dedicated to making our communities safer.

Produced by: Citrustream, LLC

Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:00):
We have another episode of Justice Then Justice
Now.
Our guest today is Dave Gaddis.
Dave is retired from the DrugEnforcement Administration.
His background is he was anagent here in Miami.
He was overseas.
I met him for the first timewhen he was in Costa Rica on a

(00:22):
case which he almost got mefired for working narcotics with
customs, which I wasn'tsupposed to do, but it was a
favor, as I told the SAC.
But that went well, but he didget me a nice commendation, so
it helped.
We've been friends for yearsyears.

(00:48):
Dave went to Onward to becomethe country attache in Bogota,
colombia, at the height of thedrug smuggling and the
conversion to heroin whichhappened over there, and then
ended up in Mexico City workingthere with the Mexican movement
of the smuggling of narcotics.
Retired in 2011 from the DEA,he's an expert on everything.
He's testified at Congress.

(01:09):
But, more important, he startedout as a street agent in Miami,
which was in the late 80s andearly 90s a very busy period.
He has this book out that I'veread, the Noble Experiment.
It starts out with him as astreet agent and follows his
career up through the DrugEnforcement Administration.

(01:30):
He talks about the policychanges and everything else in
it.
It has my highestrecommendation and Dave's
character is beyond reproach andhe will tell it like it is.
Thank you, dave, for coming on.

Speaker 2 (01:46):
It's great to see you .
My pleasure you bet.
Toby.
It was uh great to hear fromyou again same here.

Speaker 1 (01:52):
This is jeff thomas.
Jeff is, uh, uh, very goodfriend of mine.
He's the producer of all thiskind of stuff and an expert, and
uh training me as I go along.
So I I'll let you, I'll let you.

Speaker 3 (02:06):
And I'm the and I'm the big dummy, so I get to ask
all the dummy questions.
So all the you know lessinformed people in the audience
can get a translated you knowversion for all of us dummies.

Speaker 2 (02:19):
Well, that's essentially why I wrote the
noble experiment, because Iwanted to show people who didn't
know about federal lawenforcement what it's really
like and how fun it could beperfect thing, you're a perfect
guest.

Speaker 3 (02:30):
So, um, the way we have been opening up um and it's
worked pretty well.
If you can just briefly go over, yeah, you know your early life
, where you're from, um, youknow you're growing up and you
know you know your parents andwhat led you to a start, a
career in law enforcement well,jeff, you gotta buy the book
well, I mean just first chapter,you gotta give us a little

(02:52):
teaser.
You know I'm gonna read it.
You just gotta get a littleteaser, get the hooks in hey,
listen, man, it was.

Speaker 2 (02:58):
You know the the.
That was one reason I wrote thebook.
The second reason was because Ihave a couple of kids and, as
Toby knows, you know, whenyou're in the job and you're
working it, you don't talk muchabout it.
A lot of the stuff that'shappening in your case is you
don't really want to talk about.
You know, to your family.
I mean, it's not alwayspleasant things, in fact it's

(03:21):
rarely pleasant In a way.
I always joke that my job wasto make other people's world
turn upside down.
Right, because we weretargeting the bad guys.
And if their lives turned upsidedown then I was doing my job.
But I'm glad that it waswritten and the kids can look at
it.
And it basically all startedwhen I was in college, right, I

(03:45):
grew up in a military family.
Uh, my dad was a special forcesgreen beret, um vietnam era guy
and um, he just showed me, uh,the importance of civil service.
So, um, I initially thoughtabout military but, uh, I just
had something of a greatercalling, it seemed to me, and it

(04:08):
was going to be in lawenforcement.
I really don't know why, but Idecided I wanted to be a part of
the law enforcement communityFor a couple of years.

(04:32):
As a junior and senior incollege, I probably applied for
every ABC agency you could thinkof, including the Legacy
Customs Service, but only twoagencies decided to interview me
.
One was the FBI and the otherwas the DEA.
So it turns out the DEA had abit of a more expedient uh
hiring process than the fbi andum, and I ended up being hired
by the dea, although I wouldhave been disqualified by the

(04:53):
fbi eventually, I understand,because I had had um
radiocarototomy eye surgery whenI was in college and the fbi
was using that as a disqualifier, uh at that time, as well as
the military.
They don't any longer, but theydid at that time.
But the DEA they didn't have uhthat requirement.

(05:14):
So I ended up just slidingunder the radar and getting
hired with DEA and that's how mycareer started.

Speaker 3 (05:21):
Is that?
Is that the um that's likestill like fighter pilots and
that kind of stuff?
Can't um, have that, have thatpast, correct?
Or is that like across theboard?

Speaker 2 (05:32):
okay now I, I'm I'm absolutely certain that um
training fighter pilots have tohave perfect, perfect natural
vision not even lacing now yeah,I would think.
Well, I would think, know, let'ssay you're 40 years old, right,
or 30 years old, and you'vebeen a pilot for eight years,
you might be able to get awaywith some of that modern LASIK

(05:52):
stuff, but now, now, if you're atraining pilot, I'm pretty sure
you wouldn't be able to to toqualify.
And it's funny because when Ifirst graduated high school, I
actually went to the US AirForce Academy Preparatory School
, which is also in ColoradoSprings, colorado, with the

(06:14):
intent of being an Air ForceAcademy cadet and flying.
I wanted to fly.
It was in that year that myvision went to hell, in a
handbasket and um, because forthe first time in my life, I
think I actually had to studyand uh, uh the vision went
pretty bad, uh, at the age of 19.

(06:36):
And uh, I realized that even ifI I graduated from the academy
which would have been a fabulouseducation I never would have
been a pilot.
So it kind of burst my bubble alittle bit, so I maybe a sorry
excuse as to why I didn'tcontinue to go on.
Um, I did receive anappointment to the academy, but
I decided to, uh, to turn tofederal law enforcement at that

(06:59):
time instead of the military soyou went straight into the DEA,
no local police background oranything, just straight in.
No, you can't do that.
You have to have or at least atthat time in 1985, 86, you had
to have three years full-timework experience, preferably as a
law enforcement officer of themilitary or some related field.

(07:23):
You know, probation, parole,anything like that.
And while I was in college Iactually had an 11P to 7A job at
the Madison County AlabamaJuvenile Detention Center.
So I was a probation officerand intake officer for juveniles

(07:44):
and I did that for three yearswhile I was actually in college,
which worked out very well.
So I almost immediatelyqualified, at least on the
application after I had degreed.
And it turns out that thetiming was perfect.
Right, that's life, timing'salways the important thing.

(08:04):
And George Bush, 41, GW's dadwas the president and I'm sorry,
he was the vice president atthe time in 86.
And Ronald Reagan you rememberRonald, nancy Reagan, just say
no campaign.
They were really focusing ontrying to stop drugs and drug

(08:26):
abuse and they actually askedthe vice president, george Bush,
to oversee and activate theSouth Florida task force around
1985.
Toby, you remember all that.
There was a lot of attentionback in Miami because that was
ground zero for Dopeland, right?

Speaker 1 (08:47):
Yeah, and with that South Florida task force, yeah,
and I was a member of that, theycalled it FJTG and we used to
complain because the customsagents they had to fill out two
forms ROIs and DEA 6s, and theDEA agents had to do 6s.

Speaker 3 (09:06):
So what's a ROI?
A report of investigation?

Speaker 1 (09:10):
and DEA 6 was their report of investigation.
So what we'd have to do is sitat our typewriters with carbon
copies and figure out how tosubmit the reports and the
seizures.
And I think we got shafted withthat, Dave.
But that's okay, Go ahead.

Speaker 2 (09:28):
Yeah, but you guys we'll get into it, because I'm
sure we'll get into it.

Speaker 1 (09:33):
Border search authority, Title 21, all that.

Speaker 2 (09:36):
But I'll remind you of the FDIN and we'll get back
to that.
I'm sure very soon in theconversation and you guys own
the F?
Fdin most of the time.
But, um, no, I mean it wasgreat timing they were hiring.
There was a flood of uh basicagent trainees coming in.
Uh, not that they would hire uh, you know, just anybody.

(09:56):
But I think I was part of apool where, uh, I was included
in some fabulous uh uh agenttrainees at that time it was
1986.
And, uh, we, we had, uh we hadNYPD cops.
Um, we had, um, folks like methat just kind of had a

(10:17):
peripheral experience to lawenforcement, as as a juvenile
detention officer.
Um, we even had somebody whowas a manager at McDonald's.
So I mean, they were reallytaking a lot of people at that
time and that individual whoactually worked at McDonald's
turned out to be one hell of agreat agent.
So you never know what yourexperience comes from.

(10:40):
That will essentially evolveand just create this persona of
a great DEA agent or a federalagent in general.
Right, I remember working manycases with customs agents in
South Florida and we had a greattime and we all came from
different backgrounds.
You know different educationlevels.

(11:02):
I only had a bachelor's degreeat that time and I don't know if
people know this, buttechnically you do not have to
have a four-year bachelor'sdegree to join the DEA.
You didn't then and you don'tnow.
Now, as a practice, you know,most of the people who are hired
have some bachelor's degree,whether it's in humanities,

(11:26):
behavioral sciences, science orwhatever.
But technically it's notrequired.
So we got, like you know awhole group of different people.
I remember when I was at theFBI Academy, which is where the
DEA Academy in 86 was located inQuantico Virginia, and 86 was
located in Quantico Virginia andone of the FBI agents who was a
really strong-looking guy, youknow, a real strappy guy.

(11:49):
He had worked in a circus andwas an elephant trainer.
So how do you use thatexperience to become a federal
agent?

Speaker 3 (12:01):
I'm sure there's some crossover there.

Speaker 2 (12:03):
I always thought it was, you know, basically
shoveling shit right.
If you learn to shovel shit,you can be a DEA agent.

Speaker 3 (12:08):
Yes, and what mountain of shit is bigger than
an elephant's?

Speaker 1 (12:11):
Yeah, that's the top of the hill.

Speaker 2 (12:14):
Or the US drug problem, yeah.

Speaker 3 (12:19):
Especially in the 80s .

Speaker 2 (12:23):
Man.
Toby, wasn't that something?
The 80s was off.
Toby, wasn't that something.
The 80s was, uh, it, it was offthe hook.
Really it was an amazingexperience.
Um, I I was in a class of about40 people, maybe 45 34 ended up
graduating because it'smulti-month training and you
know, some people just decideit's not for them or or they

(12:44):
can't hack it.
You know, there's a physicaltraining at the time and, um,
and then there's course, coursework and all this stuff.
But, uh, nothing preparedanyone for miami and I was so
thankful that dea had sent me tomiami as a 24 year old graduate

(13:05):
of the Academy instead of.
You know, boise Idaho nothingagainst Boise Idaho.
Today there's drugs everywhere.
But at that time, I mean, weweren't really working.
You couldn't work ounce cases,which is where the rest of
America work.
You know they were working.
Multi-ounce cases in some cases, gram cases, right, and

(13:30):
conspiracies and whatnot.
But in Miami it was nothing tothrow together a five, 10 kilo
by bust case, and by bust iswhere, you know, you set up with
an informant and you meet theguy who wants to sell the dope.
You show him a little money,some flash money hopefully not

(13:50):
at the same time, because we hadplenty of shootings in Miami at
that time and, of course, lotsof people that would rip you off
if they could.
And then, yeah, you had five or10 kilos of cocaine on the
table, right.
I mean there are places.
Even at that time Houston Texaswasn't getting those kinds of

(14:11):
cases because it was the mid-90sand Miami was the gateway to
Latin America and the drugsupply.

Speaker 3 (14:18):
So how much did that schooling prepare you for
getting into Miami and gettingstarted, or was it mostly on the
job training once you got there?

Speaker 2 (14:27):
the school basically just taught us how to survive,
uh, administratively yes, 100the senior agents.
The senior agents in Miamitaught you how to survive on the
street Because you're notreally dealing with true

(14:50):
informants.
And Toby can tell you one ofthe most challenging parts.
It's a great career.
I called it my 25-yearperpetual play date.
It's a great career.
It's so much fun, fun.
I recommend it for everybody.
But there's one frustratingpart about being a federal narc

(15:12):
and that is operating andmanaging your informants,
because you don't have legitbusiness owners, you don't have
clergymen, you don't have greatmoms.
You have sometimes you havemoms, but they're not great and,
uh, you're informed we'll talkabout those.
Yes, the great moms so you, youknow you don't have that in

(15:36):
training man.
And then when you're there, itall comes out right.
And you're trying to.
You're trying to drink it froma a five foot fire hose and
you're trying to drink it from afive-foot fire hose and you're
trying to suck it in.
And thank goodness you havethose senior agents who, with
their experience their 8, 10, 15, 20 years of experience that

(15:58):
can say, hey, kid, it's okay,we're going to handle it this
way, we're going to do it thisway, but going to do it this way
.
But wait, the manual says weshould actually go through this
and we're going to follow themanual.
But I've got a shortcut, youknow.
So it, there's a way to getthings done and, uh, legally, uh
and um, but the regulations Iremember, actually, when I

(16:21):
joined dea, I think theA specialagent's manual was about an
inch and a half thick, and todayit's probably about four inches
thick, and that extra two and ahalf inches is definitely
mistakes that have been made bypeople like me.

Speaker 1 (16:40):
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Plus, like the thickest sectionof the customs manual, it was
undercover operations andhandling informants.

Speaker 3 (17:08):
I mean, that was where people got in trouble, you
know, keeping them confidential, or what was the?
What was the main um?

Speaker 2 (17:11):
overwhelming, uh, apparent thing that that, um,
that you discovered every one ofthem wanted something.
Every one of them had theiragenda.
I get it, we're all human.
But if you're working with adefendant informant, they have a
very dark background, right.
They have probably witnessedhomicides.
They have certainly witnessedthreats and extortion against

(17:33):
individuals.
They're a tough personalitybecause they've lived through it
, right, it's as if you'reworking with a mobster, right, a
career mobster, right, a careermobster, right.
So Toby and I are sitting herein Miami and we ended up with an
informant and then a formant'sbeen with the Cali cartel or the

(17:54):
Medellin cartel for I don'tknow, five years, four years,
whatever.
I mean they probably die afterabout nine or ten years.
I mean you don't last in thosecartels very long.

Speaker 1 (18:06):
No pension plan.

Speaker 2 (18:08):
Yeah, there's no pension plan and there's no pink
slip, you know, except in theform of a bullet.
So you're dealing with a roughcrowd, right?
That's the first thing.
And second, I mean they've gottheir own agenda right.
Either they're going to try toget off of some time because
they're a defendant informant,they've been charged and they

(18:28):
know they have to cooperate inorder to get less time, or
they're on the outs of thecartel for one reason or another
, or there's monetary incentive,right.
And if there's simply monetaryincentive to do it, you can't
trust them, right?
I mean, we had a case where aColombian informant, a female, a

(18:50):
very attractive female in thelate 80s, was working with our
group and she was sitting onabout $4 million and this was
connected to the Ochoa cartelout of Medellin in the mid 80s,
and we basically monitored heractivities and she was giving us

(19:14):
a little bit of information,but she felt like she couldn't
give up the money because if shedid, they would kill her.
And she's probably right.
You know, the Ochoa cartel werenot friendly to enemies and in
the end she, she moved it.
I mean, you know, 3 millionbecame 4 million, 4 million
became 6 million, 8 million, andthen, lo and behold, she ended

(19:36):
up moving it and it it costedthe DEA quite a bit and the FDLE
, the Florida Department of LawEnforcement, uh, a heck of a lot
of spent time on surveillance,and that was one informant that
skewered the, the investigation.
Uh, were we successful in theend?
Uh, yeah, I think at certainlevels, but uh, we didn't get

(19:57):
the, the fat fish that we wanted, and it was because of that,
that informant that had hadbecame a turncoat in the ninth
inning of the program.
Did you ever experienceanything like that, toby?
Were your informants skeweredon you?

Speaker 1 (20:14):
Yeah, you know, I always assumed that and it's
terrible to say that they werewired from internal affairs or
they were working for my ex-wife.
You know, I just had thatmentality.
It was a professionalrelationship and that's the hard
part of it.
There's some of these peoplethat you actually like.
They have same interests andstuff like that, and you had to

(20:38):
keep that line there in dealingwith them.
No matter any law enforcementofficer that handles informants
has to has to do that.

Speaker 2 (20:48):
So yeah, of course, yeah, I remember one of my
chapters is called um.
It's called mangoes.
Yes, in the noble experimentit's about a defendant named
chichi and I'd worked undercover.
I brought a load in from theguajira uh peninsula of colombia
and um, I don't know, it's a500 kilos, something like that.
And then there was another youknow thousand pounds of weed

(21:10):
that they insisted on throwingon the on the plane and, uh, I
worked with chichi forundercover of course, uh, for
maybe I don't know 60 days, 70days, something like that, and
we actually kind of got to knoweach other.
But of course he doesn't knowwho.
I am right, I was thebrother-in-law of the pilot who

(21:33):
was able, who had run many loadsfor him in the past, a gringo
pilot.
So it was natural for me to behis brother-in-law, it was
natural for me to be hisbrother-in-law, and once we
arrested him which was kind of aviolent arrest because he was
on the run he was on the lam forabout maybe two weeks before we

(22:09):
could actually put him down inHialeah and took him down at a
friend's house.
But when we started talking tohim in the Metropolitan
Detention Center down there inSouth Dade I really felt like I
got to know him.
That's right, I got to know him.
It was the other zoo, right,the two-legged zoo, and he
turned out to be a pretty coolcat man and I wrote a chapter
about that.
Simply because we connected, wekind of connected in a way, and
I realized the, the, the humanside to how it happened, because

(22:33):
he told me his life story.
He never had an opportunity.
He, he was.
He was brought over not longafter the mariel boat lift.
Uh, he, he was, he wasrelatively young and uh fell
into the wrong crowd, was makingsome easy, not a whole lot of
money, but easy money and uh.
So you know, we ended up uhkind of bonding, you know, as as

(22:55):
cop and drug trafficker and uh,it it turned out to be a
relationship to where he's outof prison now and I hope he's
doing well.
Actually I hope he's living anormal life and he's about my
age, so he's starting to slowdown a bit, but I hope he's
doing well.
But there was that case in thechapter of mangoes where we were

(23:20):
running around and he waspointing out houses, you know
flop houses, where he said, ok,I picked up 40 kilos from that
house and then we would go a fewblocks down and he said I
picked up 20 kilos here, Idropped off 80 kilos at this one
, and so I'm just documentingand document.
And we finally went by a cornerlot and there was this huge

(23:45):
mango tree, beautiful ripemangoes hanging off of it.
I mean, they were purple, theywere so beautiful.
And he looked at that andapparently he wasn't getting
mangoes in federal prison.
So he said, dave, please let mepick a mango.
And I said you know, you'vebeen helping me, I'm going to

(24:07):
let you pick a mango.
I didn't know whose tree it was, it's private property, but it
was in the front yard, it wasover there on the side of the
house, and there were a fewthere on the ground, right.
So I said, okay, I'm going tolet you pick a mango.
But of course he was handcuffedthe whole time, right.
So I unhandcuffed him, know,and I looked at him straight in

(24:28):
his eyes and I said, gg, if yourun, I'm gonna shoot you.
He said, no problem, so he will.
It's out of the car, it's like a1984 le sabre.
You know, three of the lug nutson each tire had been ripped
off.
You know, from car chases andwhatnot, I never would have been

(24:50):
able to catch them.
And he walks out there, helooks around the ground, he
looks at a couple of mangoes.
No, he's not happy with that.
I mean, this is a Cuban guy,right, he knows a mango.
So he looks up and he picks theperfect mango and he starts, he
grabs a couple of the ones thatwere on the ground and he
starts throwing it and throwingit.

(25:11):
And I'm thinking, geez, youknow, this is this is going to
get me in trouble.
We got to get him back in thecar, right, he gets one of the
mangoes that he wanted.
It falls to the ground, hegrabs it, he starts devouring it
.
You know, just casually,walking back to the uh, to the
car, and uh, and I said, are youhappy now?

(25:31):
And he goes oh, yeah, thank you.
Muchas gracias, david, muchasgracias.
And then, uh, I get back intothe car.
I said get in the car.
And he doesn't get in the carand he doesn't get in the car.
He's standing up, door's openon the passenger side.
He's not getting in the car.
I get back out of the car and Ilook over the hood and he's just

(25:52):
looking down the road and Isaid Gigi, get in the car.
He doesn't answer, he's lookingdown the road and I thought for
a quick second this guy's goingto rabbit on me, he's going to
run.
He was probably in one of hisold neighborhoods, right?
He would know the area muchbetter than I.
He took a sigh, big breath.

(26:12):
He got back into the car,handcuffed him and we continued,
uh, uh.
He continued fingering stashhouses for me for another couple
of hours before we went backand I asked him.
I said why didn't you get inthe car when I told you?
And he says I miss it?
He says I really miss it.

(26:32):
You know the fresh mangoes, thefresh air of Miami.
He says I just missed it.
But you know you're treating meright.
I'm going to treat you rightand I'm going to do this.
You can count on me.
So, right before we get back tothe DEA office so we could
confirm all the addresses.

(26:53):
Toby, you'll remember this.
I don't know if it's, yeah, itprobably is current, but there
used to be these umbrella standswhere these young ladies would
be selling hot dogs and thenthey would have these.

Speaker 1 (27:05):
I forgot all about that, so he told me you never
saw those and they were.

Speaker 2 (27:09):
They were, you know, clad in in these very were they
out at the airport?

Speaker 1 (27:13):
were they out at the airport too?

Speaker 2 (27:15):
they were everywhere.

Speaker 3 (27:16):
Perimeter road perimeter road there.

Speaker 2 (27:18):
Yeah, I've seen photos oh yeah, I almost on
every corner.
They were modern-day Starbucks,they were on every street
corner.
It had a little hot dog stand,little umbrella, and the girls
were wearing bikinis, right, andthey sell you these great hot
dogs.
And man, all the workers werearound and probably all the

(27:43):
customs agents were around a fewDEA agents and we ended up
going by that umbrella stand andthen Chi-Chi looks at it and he
goes mangoes, can I stop andget those mangoes?

Speaker 3 (28:01):
And I said no, chi-chi, those are mangoes you
will never have and I stoppedand get those mangoes and I said
no Chi.

Speaker 2 (28:05):
Chi, those are mangoes, you will never have.

Speaker 3 (28:08):
Yeah, toby sent me a picture one time and he was like
this is what they used to do todistract all the customs agents
while they flew stuff into theairport.

Speaker 1 (28:18):
When the Colombian flights came in at between 3 and
11,.
He knows they were all outthere on perimeter road.
We thought they were workingfor him.
That distract us and the guysfrom the task force would have
been brilliant, brilliant move.
They were very sharp with that.
They were very creative.
You know I can't wait to hearthe stories about bogota and
mexico city, but you know, fromhim.

Speaker 3 (28:41):
So how early on in your DEA career were you
undercover on flights and flyingbehind enemy lines?

Speaker 2 (28:53):
I did all of my undercover in Miami and in Costa
Rica.
See, I left Miami in 1992,joined in 1986, worked six years
in Miami Wow.
Then I ended up going to CostaRica, Did some undercover in

(29:14):
Costa Rica.
But you have to get specialpermissions from the US State
Department, the ambassador, towork undercover because you're
not on US soil, right,no-transcript.

(29:46):
But as you can see, theambassador would not be very
comfortable if you werephotographed or caught in a
place like that doing yourundercover work.
So by about 1994, I wasn'tworking undercover anymore, but
I did most of it right there inMiami and I was lucky enough to
have some very good informants,which is as frustrating as they

(30:10):
can be to work with.
Toby can tell you you have tohave them.

Speaker 1 (30:14):
Right, absolutely.
You can't do your job withoutthem.

Speaker 2 (30:17):
It's the peanut butter with bread baby.
You got to have them and I hadsome great informants.
I had one guy who was ared-haired Canadian, big old,
fat guy, who was a pilot, apilot, a very, very skilled
pilot, and, um, he was grabbedfor smuggling a couple of tons

(30:43):
of cocaine.
But he had been doing it forprobably 15, 20 years, uh, when
he got caught.
So he had some real deep hooksinto suppliers in Colombia.
So I was his brother-in-law youknow, I'm red-haired myself and
with his recommendation it waseasy to work me in.

(31:05):
So I had people like that, youknow, that was able for me to
get in.
I didn't really speak fluentspanish, uh, during my uh six
and a half years in in miami Iwas trying to learn it, but, uh,
it's, it's difficult, you know.
Um, it took a few years for meto actually pick it up and and I

(31:25):
was actually lucky enough to uhto be sent to spanish language
school at the defense LanguageInstitute in Monterey,
california, for six months andthen I was able to establish a
base, you know, so I could beginspeaking it and when I came
back it was just, you know, offI go.
Man, it was great because youreally, and Toby could tell you,

(31:49):
if you didn't speak Spanish youwere definitely disabled as an
agent, because all the policeofficers, miami-dade, metro-dade
, hialeah, I mean, they were allnative speakers.
So you kind of felt blind,right, if you couldn't speak the
language.

Speaker 3 (32:08):
And I was lucky enough to pick that up and
that's how I ended up with thepost in Costa Rica speak the
language and I I was luckyenough to pick that up, and
that's how I ended up with thepost in costa rica and then in
costa rica, are you, is it stilllike um, kind of like air, air
smuggling and stuff, or is that?
Is that, around the time thatit started, kind of shift into
like mexico?
Uh?

Speaker 1 (32:26):
no, this is pre pre that yeah yeah, one of the
questions I'm going to talkabout with Dave is about we had
a big shift in seizures in Miamiin the 90s and it went from
cocaine to heroin overnight andit was unbelievable the change
that they had.
I mean, we started, you know,they always made me the stat guy

(32:48):
because I didn't speak Spanish.
So I, I would.
I didn't do that, I did limitedundercover, mine was in the
gold industry and things likethat.
But, um, you know, uh, he he'll, he'll talk about that, but he
he was, he was down there, youwere the rep down there, right
Cause that's where you got me introuble, but that's okay.

Speaker 3 (33:11):
Oh, I got to hear that story.

Speaker 2 (33:12):
No, I was, I was, I was a journeyman.
You know, grade 13 specialagent in Costa Rica.
Man, uh, my boss, a guy nameduh Ron Lard, who, uh is
considered the country at yourshade.
We call them country at yourshades.
They're the lead agents in anyuh office, uh office uh of like

(33:35):
four agents or less, and um, andron was a great mentor, he was
a great supervisor yeah, super,super cool guy and uh.
So you know, he just kind ofgave us a very long leash to do
our jobs.
He trusted, uh, our training.
He trusted, uh, our experiences, uh, if, if, there and.

(33:58):
But there were times when hesaid, hey, listen, you know
you're pushing the envelope heretime out.
Let's think of another way, youknow, to, to, to achieve the
same end, uh and um, and Ireally enjoyed working for him,
and that's when I met toby.
But uh, where were we goingwith this?

Speaker 3 (34:15):
I can't remember now uh, like the transition to
heroin and all that stuff no, no, no, I'll ask that later we'll
go into that later, but it wasfunny.

Speaker 1 (34:24):
I went down with an undercover agent and informant
and they didn't know each other.
So I mean each other's rolesobviously in that.
And Dave was a tremendous helpin Ron.
And when I came back because Iworked for customs, he needed
paperwork to show for a reversedeal and I said I'll get you
that, you know, send it downthere.

(34:46):
And so they had a successful,what they call a reverse sting
down there with Drisham drugs.
So I get called about two monthslater to the SAC's office and
our SAC he had this deep voiceand said I heard over the
intercom the entire office Roach, come to my office.

(35:07):
So I go in there.
And he goes are you workingmoney laundering in gold or are
you working narcotics?
And I said, well, no, I'mrunning undercover with that and
doing that.
He goes.
Well, I just got a commendationfrom the ambassador down there
and the DEA deputy director foryour fine work down there on

(35:29):
this case like this.
And I said, oh my God, and heproduces a letter from Ron Lard
and I'm in there on this caselike this.
And I said, oh my God, and heproduces a letter from Ron Lard
and I'm in there and he goeslike this and you know we got
along well with DEA in Miami andcustoms Other areas of the
country they'd lock, but we hadso much drugs it was like, okay,

(35:49):
who's going to be the lead?
Flip a coin.

Speaker 3 (35:50):
That's right.
That's exactly what it was like.
Okay, who's going to be the?

Speaker 1 (35:52):
lead Flip a coin.
That's right, that's exactlywhat it was like.
And we'd laugh when we didcontrol delivery somewhere.
So I said what was this allabout?
And I said a favor.
I just you know like the linefrom, you know with Al Pacino in
that movie I forget the name ofit Carlito's Way A favor, a
favor will get you killed.
He, carlitos way a favor, afavor will get you killed.
He was like telling me a favorbut we have to do paperwork on

(36:14):
this and I said okay, but yeah,nice job, had me out.
So I told Dave, next time youcome to Miami, we're going to
have drinks and use yourAmerican express card at tobacco
road, which was a local divehangout.
So anyway, I was alwaysgrateful for that I, by the way.

Speaker 2 (36:33):
But yeah, I think I actually forged ron large
signature.

Speaker 1 (36:38):
He never knew about that I just basically wrote it
down right see, takes 30 yearsfor the truth to come out, jeff
check the spelling.

Speaker 3 (36:47):
Seal the envelope.
Check the spelling on the name.

Speaker 2 (36:52):
Seal the envelope and he had a stamp, his desk
probably and just sent that outsee, that's, that's that's what
those uh senior agents taughtyou, both in uh customs, uh
legacy customs, and the dea.
Is that?
Um, you know, they knew theline of things that you could
get away with, and and then theyknew what you couldn't get away

(37:12):
with.
So don't be stupid and donothing illegal.
But if you bent a rule everynow and then, it was okay.

Speaker 1 (37:22):
If not, you're not trying right.
It's called a favor, jeff,that's the word Favor.
It's not bending the rules,it's a favor, that's right.
That's right, yeah, it's afavor.

Speaker 2 (37:29):
That's right, that's right.

Speaker 1 (37:31):
Yeah, so anyway, the book is great.
I recommend it to everybody,not because Dave Gaddis is my
friend, but it's inaccurate andstarts out exactly how we're
doing this discussion Working asagents.
And then he progressed intomanagement and it's you know,

(37:53):
usually you see, and he was anexecutive in the government, he
was an SES, which is SeniorExecutive Service, and usually
they start at the top and thenyou read little things in there.
But this is casework.
I mean, that's what's you know,and I have a book too.
So you know, know, behind blueeyes, it's cases, it's cases and

(38:17):
that's a great book.
Pete wrote it, thank you, andwhen pete wrote it it was about
the cases in the marshal serviceand then here and carrying 40
years.
So but again, dave went downand I can't think of a better
person to head the office inBogota at the time when he was

(38:38):
there.
And then obviously he did agreat job and, as they do in the
government, you can do one oftwo things you can do a shitty
job and you get transferred, andthat happens, or you can.
You, you can do a great job andthey decide to move you at a
different step, but you alwaysgo to a problem area because

(39:00):
they'll put you in.
It's like when I was an agent.
They put me in different groups.
They say, okay, we need thisdone and this Okay.
And you don't take itpersonally.
They just do that kind of stuff.
So if you could pick up andtell us how you ended up in
Bogota and that man, you know,the career, as exciting as it is

(39:24):
, is equaled by the surprise.

Speaker 2 (39:28):
You know, I went from Miami, like I said, very lucky
to start in a place during themid 80s.
Probably wouldn't have wantedto be there at my age then
because it was way, far toorisky.
But when you're a 24, 25, 26year old, I mean, you're just

(39:51):
ready to take on the world,right, you're impetuous, you're
aggressive and you just want alot of adventure.
But I went from Miami to CostaRica, from Costa Rica to Mexico.
So I actually stayed six yearsoverseas and Costa Rica was got.
To be honest, man, costa Ricawas a training ground for what

(40:15):
was happening in Mexico.
Uh, because I transferred toMexico in 1995 and that was when
, uh, you know, the shit washitting the fan and everything
was going through Mexico, youknow, through the central
American and Caribbean, toCentral America, central America
to Mexico, and it was startingto really heat up.

(40:37):
That was when Amado CarrilloFuentes was tied into the
Medellin cartel and it just theyformed that alliance.
So I was right there at thattime and really enjoyed it, and
I'll tell you some stories aboutbeing in Mexico.
But then, from Mexico, I endedup going to headquarters, which

(41:05):
is what we call dead time, andbecause there's no fun, there's
no street work.
You're basically livingvicariously through agents out
there.
But you've got to do that, youknow, if you want to get
promoted.
And I was already in managementbecause I had become a manager
to be in Mexico the first time,and then I left there, ended up

(41:28):
with a domestic assignment inNorth Carolina and then after
that I ended up in Bogota.
So you know, you can't springfrom a group supervisor to an

(41:49):
SES.
If you're going to be an SESand a regional director or a
special agent in charge, you gotto go through the steps right.
It's a ladder.
You got to climb up the ladder.
Uh, the same with everyorganization, uh, whether it's
ICE, uh, dea, fbi.
So, uh, I ended up doing my uh,my mid level, mid management

(42:11):
level time in inagement leveltime in North Carolina and DC,
and then I was asked to take onthe job for a promotion at the
SES level in Bogota and I leftNorth Carolina, charlotte, north
Carolina, specifically to go toBogota, and that was in 2003,

(42:32):
which was a fun time, so it justseemed like the timing.
Always I was very fortunate andlucky to have been in that
location at that time.
Why do I say 2003 was a greattime to go to Bogota?
Because that's when theright-wing paramilitaries, pablo

(42:53):
Escobar had been killed, theMedellin cartel was being
dismantled and there was anumber of drug traffickers who
were stepping up and they weretrying to take over, create a
new uh a cartel.

(43:14):
And uh, and they did so and itbecame what was called the uh
AUC, which was, um it's aSpanish acronym for the right
wing paramilitaries Uh, the theauto defenses who need this the
Columbia and uh, they grew intoa force of like 30,000 soldiers

(43:37):
and they were paramilitarysoldiers.
They were tough and they becamea drug trafficking cartel the
greatest cartel that you canimagine, I believe, and I was
there during that time when itwas all happening.
So we started targeting membersof these AUC leaders.

(43:57):
In the end, although at timesit was very frustrating because
of the levels of sophisticationand the money that they had, we
were able to succeed and grablieutenants, captains, and
eventually we were able to grabthe top guys and the AUC was
dismantled.
It demobilized, uh, politically, the president, a guy named

(44:19):
Alvaro um, help me, toby, uh,alvaro Uribe.

Speaker 1 (44:27):
Uribe, alvaro Uribe U .

Speaker 2 (44:29):
Uribe yeah, he ended up working up a peace process
for that organization so thelower level guys could get out,
and I was in the middle of thatman, so it was great.
It was great is able to go froma place like Charlotte, north

(44:50):
Carolina, where he's in chargeof five offices in one state, to
being in Bogota and being inthe ground zero of all drug
trafficking, both heroin andcocaine, around the world.
It's an amazing change andamazing opportunities for

(45:11):
someone, and I felt very, verylucky to find myself in those
positions.

Speaker 1 (45:17):
Yeah.
So from there you went toMexico City and there and that
was probably the last time I sawyou when I was down there
working as a PI- that's right,Bringing informants and the

(45:37):
usual stuff that we do Sometimes.
I think this job is like themafia you know and I retire.
I don't know about you.
Do you play pickleball oranything like that, or no?

Speaker 2 (45:49):
No, my friend, I'm a farmer.

Speaker 1 (45:51):
Okay.

Speaker 2 (45:53):
Don't let the Ralph Laurenph lauren.
No, I always, I notice thingslike that.

Speaker 1 (45:56):
You know that the dressing and that I'm, I, I keep
busy, I keep.

Speaker 2 (46:00):
You are an scs dave.

Speaker 1 (46:02):
So you know that's, that's the I completely I
completely abandoned thatthought and that mentality.

Speaker 2 (46:11):
I actually, uh, grow potatoes and corn now and have a
little livestock and and aplace that I'll refer to as off
the beaten path, and I reallylove it.
Yeah, no pickleball for me, butyou're right about an
organization, it's it's, it's afraternity, and I mean that in
both a male and female sense.

(46:32):
You know, you go around theworld.
It's one of the odd experiencesin life where you can meet
somebody, you can work a casewith them, or cases with them
not see them for 40 years, andthen when you do see him, it
doesn't seem like a day hadpassed.

Speaker 1 (46:52):
Yep, a lot of fun, especially if you've got a
Heineken in front of you.
That usually helps.

Speaker 2 (47:00):
That's right.
That's right, although this iswater, I wanted to be
straightforward with you guys.

Speaker 3 (47:05):
That was good timing.
Not get too silly.

Speaker 2 (47:08):
I timed it perfect, didn't I Jeff?
Yeah, I timed it perfect,didn't I Jeff?

Speaker 1 (47:10):
Yeah, can you talk about your experiences as the
country attache in both Bogotaand there?
You touched on the AOC and whatwas happening there with the
paramilitary buildup.
What about?
You know, right now in the newseverything's about Mexico.

(47:32):
It's about the border.
Border, you know, and I have myopinions on it.
I think you know where they are.
Uh with that and it's creatingthe flow of narcotics and
hopefully that will change thepolicy on that, just because of
the safety factor to Americancitizens.

(47:52):
But what was Mexico like?
I mean, with the development ofthe major cartels out of there
with?
You know the Camarita case?
I worked and when I was amarshal in DC, I was involved in
that, when Rene VerdugoUrquhise was across the border,

(48:15):
shall we say, and thatpersonally too, with his
transportation and all that tocourts and things like that.
It was a very, very sad day wehadn't seen.
I mean you remember with thetask force that?
I mean you remember with thetask force that Eddie Benitez
and Ariel Rios were killed onOperation Florida, which in the

(48:37):
early 80s, and put everybody onalert for safety and all that.

Speaker 2 (48:55):
But what was the experience like with Mexico
transitioning to what they aretoday, with drug smuggling?
You know, I felt like when Ileft Colombia and went to Mexico
in 2006, I was thrown out ofthe frying pan into the fire.
Mexico is unparalleled in termsof the transnational drug
threat.
The idea of being able to stopthe Mexican cartels is almost to

(49:20):
me preposterous, because theconnections and the influence of
corruption in the country isunparalleled.
I mean, there's nothing thatI've seen like it, not in
Colombia, not in Asia.

(49:41):
We'll get to this.
But when I finished my career,I was chief of global
enforcement, so I was involvedwith casework throughout the
globe and there is no place likeMexico in terms of the
influence of cartels.

(50:03):
And one can argue that, okay,where do they get their arms?
Some of it's from the UnitedStates.
Okay, we'll take that hit,right?
Yeah, maybe you know we haveillegal arms traffickers that
are funneling weapons down toMexico, but not all of them.
Right?
You can't even own a weapon ifyou're a private citizen unless

(50:26):
it's at a .38 caliber levelpistol or below.
There are special permits forhunting weapons at a 38 caliber
level pistol or below.
Um, there are special permitsfor for for hunting weapons and
stuff for hunting rifles,shotguns and stuff.
But, um, it's, it's set up inMexico so that the corruption
becomes the grease it keeps thewheels going throughout.

(50:49):
You know the culture, um, andI'm not saying anything that
would be a surprise to anyMexican citizen.
They know that.
They know that there's lots ofjokes about government
corruptionthere.
Are there good people in Mexico?
You're damn right, there areGreat, great people, real
patriots.
We had in our sensitiveinvestigations unit, which was a

(51:14):
special forces unit, trained,recruited, trained in the United
States in Quantico, we had aguy his name was Omar Ramirez
Aguilar and he was a terrificguy.
He was a PhD candidate inMexico University and had a

(51:36):
family, four kids, was doingeverything he could to save the
country, and then he wasmurdered right by the Cetas.
A couple of motorcycles went upnext to him and took him out.
So they're good people there.
But, man, mexico was adifferent animal
altogether.
And your question about whatwas it like to manage, you know,

(52:02):
to be the director for Mexico?
Quite frankly, I felt that itwas easy.
And it was easy because I hadgood people working for me.
Um, I had some really excellentagents, intelligence analysts,
uh, program managers, uh, and,and even administrative folks

(52:23):
that were just in it.
Altogether it was like a team.
You know right and um and they,they did the hard work but, uh,
on the political side, it wasthe political side.
It was always a bit difficult.
However, when you're a managerof a federal law enforcement
agency overseas, what's criticalis to have support from your

(52:43):
ambassador or your deputy chiefof mission and fortunately, like
I said, luckiest man alive bothin Colombia and Mexico I had
great support from both mydeputy chiefs of mission and my
American ambassadors.
They were terrific.
Bill Wood was the ambassador inColombia and Tony Garcia I'm

(53:07):
sorry, garza, tony Garza was theambassador in Mexico, and just
both of them were fantastic andI write about them in the book.

Speaker 1 (53:16):
Yeah, I know he wrote the recommendation for you.
I read that that's right.

Speaker 2 (53:21):
Yeah, yeah, we ended up accomplishing quite a lot
together and it goes toward Imean, you're doing it, you know,
at one time of the day, onehour of the day, no-transcript

(54:14):
job.
It really was a fun job but, uh, it took.
It took a lot of patience and,uh, and I think what I was able
to do is look at the hard workand the success of those agents
and and other personnel thatwere succeeding every day,
because I had worked there andI'd been in Hermosillo, I had
been in San Jose, managua,Nicaragua, guatemala as an agent

(54:40):
.
You know I knew how difficultit was to run around
surreptitiously and covertly andactually accomplish a few
things and get things done.
So I was lucky to have goodpeople.

Speaker 1 (54:53):
Excellent, excellent.
Go ahead, jeff.
I've been talking.

Speaker 3 (54:58):
You got layperson.

Speaker 1 (55:00):
Questions for Dave.
I'm taking notes but I think Iunderstand most of it right now.

Speaker 3 (55:06):
When my dummy alarm comes off, I'll pipe up.

Speaker 1 (55:12):
Where do you think that?
I know we all hear about thefentanyl.
When I, when I worked, thatwasn't.
I couldn't even spell it foryou back then.
Um, what do you think thisfuture?
What do you think the future isfor narcotics in the United
States?
Because this fentanyl and allthe other drugs that are,

(55:35):
they're not the marijuana,cocaine, heroin that we all got
used to.
Where do you think this isheading as far as society and
efforts to combat it coming in?

Speaker 2 (55:51):
Yeah, I'm really worried.
This fentanyl has become thetrue poison that could
completely dismantle Americanculture.
Why do I say Because it'skilling somewhere around 100,000
US citizens a year.

(56:13):
Thousand us citizens a year?
Uh, that means that a hundredthousand us citizens are taking
a chance.
They don't know if there'sfentanyl in it, they don't know
they're committing suicide, butthey're.
They're trying to take, you know, uh, the adderall, percoc,
vicodin.

(56:33):
They think they're taking apill that will relieve them in
some way or some fashion, andit's going to wipe out an entire
generation.
So this might not be somethingthat we really see true
ramifications for the next 15 to20 years, but when that happens

(56:55):
, there's going to be a missinggeneration and I mean, listen,
it's going to affect everything,right, it's going to affect
people who can volunteer formilitary service.
It's going to affect people whocan support social security.

(57:15):
You know, if they're dead, theycan't have jobs and they can't
support social security, whichis for other people in the
future.
So I mean, this is going tohave some severe long-term
ramifications for our countryand I hope that we wake up and
see how important this really isand see how important this

(57:37):
really is.
I don't mean to be the bearerof bad news, but we're in big
trouble here.
If we don't turn this thingaround pretty quickly, I think
we could suffer in ways that wedon't even imagine right now.

Speaker 3 (57:56):
What's the course that you would suggest with
something like fentanyl?

Speaker 2 (58:00):
Well, I talked about it in the book a little bit and
that was toward the end of thebook with regards to our
national drug control policy andI said we have to give
everything that we've got intostopping the flow of
prescription, false prescriptionmedicine and fentanyl.

(58:24):
I talk about, you know, themarijuana issue.
I don't think marijuana is goodfor you and I don't think
marijuana is uh is going to get,um, you know any any uh easier
to deal with because the uhpercentage of the thc is

(58:45):
becoming more and more potent.
But I don't think that's Idon't think it being a federal
uh responsibility is isnecessarily helping our country
right now, and the reason I saythat is because it's almost like
the abortion issue that hasalready been decided by the
Supreme Court.
They sent it back to the states.

(59:06):
Right, I think they should sendcannabis back to the states.
Let states enforce it, regulateit, legalize it, decriminalize
it, whatever the hell they wantto do.
But in federal law enforcement,we have to look at what's
really degrading our society andthat right now, my friend, are

(59:27):
hardcore drugs, includingfentanyl.
So we need to put our bestresources into this problem.
We need to focus on its flowacross the border, which is a
very current political issue, Iunderstand, and we got to put
everything we can into it.

(59:48):
Man, I would love to even seemaybe the military doing some
kind of intelligence gatheringsupport to us, because most of
it is coming across the border,most of it is coming across our
southwest border.
You know the, the fentanyl uhis imported into mexico from

(01:00:10):
china, uh, through, take yourpick.
You know what uh, what uh.
You know the, the corner ofcross and don't walk.
Uh, the, the walk and don'twalk.
I mean every country you canimagine, but it ends up in
Mexico.
The labs are in Mexico, it'sstamped, it looks like a regular
Adderall or Percocet Vicodinpill and then it's fired all

(01:00:30):
over the border into the UnitedStates.
And there's no way we're goingto be able to stop that unless
we put every resource we haveinto it.
And then we have to hold thesepeople responsible.
Right, we've got to.
It has to be a holisticapproach where we deal with the
Mexican government, difficult asit may be, and we also have to

(01:00:51):
deal with some kind ofintelligence collection
capability both.
Well, dea, customs sorry, ice,fbi can handle it in the US, but
we have to figure out a way todo it overseas right.
We have to get some majorintelligence in terms of locking

(01:01:16):
out those labs.
Now, maybe DEA I've been retiredsince 2011.
Perhaps DEA knows where thelabs are and Mexico's not doing
anything about it at a largelevel.
But that was the case withmethamphetamine.
I can tell you that in theearly 2000s, you know, we were
able to tell the Mexicangovernment that there was a

(01:01:38):
methamphetamine lab that wouldmanufacture I don't know 500
kilos per 48 hour cycleproduction cycle, and it would
take them two months to react.
And and, of course, when theydid, they had moved the lab to
another, another place.
So, um, that's that's whatwe're dealing with here.

(01:02:00):
Very difficult, jeff.
It's a hard question to answerso do you like?

Speaker 3 (01:02:05):
um, if we know like the fentanyl is is mainly coming
from china, like, do we have towait till it lands in mexico
before the da can do anything,or is there any way to intercept
it between the foreigncountries?
How does that work?
Do you kind of have to catch itin our court, or close?

Speaker 2 (01:02:23):
Well, no, no, no.
I mean, dea's reach is global.
So if we were able to identifywhere the load was and of course
keep in mind that it's always aload of fentanyl is not going
to be I mean, one grain of saltin fentanyl can cause an

(01:02:48):
overdose, right?
So if you take a 44 poundbarrel, 44 pounds is relatively
small, let's call it a pony keg.
You could take that full offentanyl and you could hide it

(01:03:08):
in a load of 47,000 pounds offlour that's coming from India,
from China, through India intoMexico.
You'd never be able to find itright, unless you have the
informants or you have some kindof method or technique that

(01:03:32):
reveals of that smugglingconspiracy.
You wouldn't know it.
There's no way that detectionis going to catch that kind of
movement.
And then, once the fentanyl isin Mexico, you take 44 pounds of
fentanyl and then you can cutit three, four times I don't

(01:03:54):
know, tell me Toby perhaps 20times, and it still have an
effective high in whatever pillthat is consumed in the United
States, sometimes even creatingoverdoses at the tune of 100,000
people a year.
So real problem People have tofocus on this right.
Number one and I said this tooin the book.

(01:04:16):
You know demand must be reduced, right, and I don't know how
we're going to do that.
People need to know not to takedrugs.
You know it's more so than ever.
I mean, when Toby and I wererunning the streets of Miami in
the 80s, we thought this was theworst of the ever.

(01:04:36):
I mean, when Toby and I wererunning the streets of Miami in
the eighties, we thought thiswas the worst of the worst.
I mean that pedals incomparison to the fentanyl
threat right now.
I, I could, I never, ever saw ahundred thousand people dying
per year because of a singledrug.
And and that's what we're upagainst now.

(01:04:56):
I mean it's far worse than itever has been, and I feel
terrible about that because wecommitted our careers to it.
You know 25, 30-year careers,but I look at it I hope Toby
does too is that?
Hey, maybe along the way wesaved a few lives and that's
what we wanted to do Exactly,right, right, you're never going

(01:05:18):
to stop it altogether.

Speaker 1 (01:05:19):
I hope Toby does too, is that, hey, maybe along the
way we saved a few lives andthat's what we wanted to do.
That's exactly right.
Right, you're never going tostop it altogether.
Yep, that's the whole thing,but what you said.
There's two interesting pointsthat you made and I commend you
on this Number one.
It begins in the people notwanting the drugs.
The people not wanting thedrugs.
I mean, you'd think that if yousaw this, with all these

(01:05:40):
100,000 people that have diedfrom this, it would be a
deterrent Even for somebodythat's experimenting with drugs
in their teens, early 20s.
That seems to be the target useof that and I know that would
scare me off.
Until it hits home.
You got a cousin who died of it.
Most people think, oh, thisain't going to happen to me or

(01:06:03):
my family.
Yes, it always does.
Drugs have always affected.
I don't care if you came from amilitary family, dea, customs,
whatever.
There's a relative that diddrugs, there's somebody that did
that.
So it's affected everybody.
And the other thing I foundinteresting is that you said

(01:06:25):
about the marijuana With that,do you think that, with the
states regulating it and we allknow there's blue states, red
states, conservative, liberalthat it'll be a that people will
actually move out of a statebecause of the legalization or

(01:06:45):
go to it.
Have a migration like that?
That would be.
That would be horrible.
So I guess my question is doyou think this is going to lead
to?
It's still a Schedule 1 drugmarijuana right, or has that
changed?

Speaker 2 (01:07:01):
That's right.

Speaker 1 (01:07:03):
Okay, if they move that then it would go to the
states, just like abortion, andthey can decide that, that whole
aspect of it, okay.
But I'll give you an examplewhen I was a police officer in
Massachusetts, okay, they justruled the governor's office
there that anybody that had arecord and they haven't decided

(01:07:29):
the amounts of the drugs oranything they could get it wiped
off like totally sealed andexpunged, and that may happen
with that too.
And you and I both know therewere some people that and the
smugglers, but mostly the streetdealers that stood on the
corner and sold heroin, cocaineand marijuana that you know that

(01:07:55):
they affected these people'slives.
I just, I just think if thathappens, it's got to be
carefully planned.
You know.
Just some theories I want tothrow out at you.

Speaker 2 (01:08:07):
Oh, I agree 100%.
I mean, if there still needs tobe some federal oversight maybe
Food and Drug Administration oryou know, some agency that
looks into the regulatory aspectof whether cannabis is proper
in the state, is being properlymanaged in the state but I just

(01:08:31):
don't see it being a federal lawenforcement responsibility any
longer.
Number one, because we havefatter fish to fry.
We have this fentanyl problem,we have methamphetamine, we have
heroin, opioids All this thereare only so many of us, right?
I mean, I don't know how manyDEA agents there are today.

(01:08:52):
I doubt that there are morethan 6,000, 7,000.

Speaker 1 (01:08:57):
Yeah, that's what I was going to say.

Speaker 2 (01:08:58):
Far more treasury agents, but then you know, you
have your.
How many statutes does atreasury agent, an ICE agent,
have to be focused on?
You know, I mean you may have40 or 400 statutes that you're
focused on.
You know, I mean you, you mayhave 40 or 400 statutes that
you're you're focused on.
So my point is is that we have,we have a lot to do, and I just

(01:09:22):
didn't see that, um, that weshould be too focused on
cannabis right now, although,like I said, I don't think
cannabis is the answer.
I don't.
It's not aspirin, folks, and andit's and it it's not a beer,
you know, I mean they're talkingabout the THC levels surpassing
95% these days.

(01:09:43):
I mean, when I was in highschool, it was three to 5%.
You know, of whatever you wouldsmoke.
You know that ditch weed, butnow I mean it's, it's.
It's really something that that, something that can make a
difference in how you live yourlife, you know, and how
successful your life is.
It's like anything else, right?
Alcohol, it's a drug, right, ifyou drink it in moderation,

(01:10:06):
that's one thing, but if youabuse it, it's going to affect
your life.
So I'm really worried right now, though, about the fentanyl,
and I have been for some time.
We've got some people that areworking very hard to bring
awareness to it, including theparents of fallen children, and
when I say children, I'm talkingabout anybody between 15 and 45

(01:10:29):
.
I mean, it's a wide angle ofdeceased that have died from
fentanyl overdoses.
So we have to keep a close eyeon it, man.

Speaker 3 (01:10:42):
So would the cannabis make more sense in an ATF
scenario than a DEA?

Speaker 2 (01:10:50):
Well, ATF is also a law enforcement agency, but you
mean, with regards to thefirearms, being more of a
regulatory, having someregulatory oversight.

Speaker 3 (01:11:00):
And making sure that there's actual commercial
licensed companies and stufftrading and having some sort of
regulation on that rightTaxation and stuff DEA actually
does.

Speaker 2 (01:11:11):
Yeah, that's a good point, jeff, because DEA already
has a division called DiversionDiversion and what they do is
regulatory and cyclicaloversight for prescription
medication.
I mean United States doctors,pharmacies they have to work

(01:11:33):
with DEA in order to prescribe.
They have to work with DEA inorder to prescribe.
You know the drug, thescheduled drugs that they need
to support, you know theirmedical practices.
So, yeah, that's a concept thatactually could be applied is
that you use like a diversiontype of model to just make sure
that the states are regulatingthe cannabis production and the

(01:11:55):
distribution in the way thatthey're supposed to be.
Now, there are a number ofarguments out there in
opposition to this idea.
Number one, that drugtraffickers are never going to
obey the law.
Right, they're always going tobe out there in the national
parks growing weed, they'regoing to influence and and

(01:12:15):
threaten other legitimategrowers and and things like that
.
But uh, like I said, let thestates figure it out.
I just don't see where,federally, we have the time to
truly look.
I don't think, and from fromdea's perspective, and I could
be wrong, but I don't.
I don't.
While I was there, we weren'treally focusing on on pot.

(01:12:39):
We were focusing on, on fat orfish, you know, the fentanyl,
the methamphetamine, the heroin,the cocaine, uh, just yeah,
pick, pick from the buffet is.

Speaker 3 (01:12:54):
That is the biggest problem.
Is that because biggest problemis our demand, is our demand is
that because, um, uh, becausethe violence associated with the
trade itself or the the dangerof the substances?

Speaker 2 (01:13:07):
well, in fentanyl, it's the danger of the
substances, it's it's the highrate of of uh overdoses to death
and, um, I mean, when you'retalking about methamphetamine
that results in a number of uhviolent crimes, domestic uh

(01:13:31):
issues, domestic disputes,arrests.
You know uh, spouses arebeating spouses, spouses are
killing other people, I it it,just it goes on and on, man uh.
You know there's a lot more forus to look at in terms of the
small resources and and the theammo that we have to work with
right and uh, I don't know.
I just I agree with toby thatmarijuana, you know, and some

(01:13:56):
people have, um, some of myfellow agents have brought to my
attention that what was veryhelpful with uh, marijuana
arrests, federal arrests, was atthree strikes and you're out
Right.
So if you were able to grab atrafficker, you know, that was
in possession of a half a poundof of of a pot and he had two or

(01:14:17):
more prior arrest, you couldyou give him the three and
you're out Right, and thenthat's a harder sentence and
keep them in jail for longer.
But you know, I I don't reallysee that as as as a solution.
I think that's more.
I mean it is a solution, but itcould be a solution on the
state state end and not thefederal end because we're just

(01:14:39):
we're becoming awash in this uh,this, this fentanyl threat yeah
, I.

Speaker 1 (01:14:44):
I just I just wanted to comment that the creation of
task force with the border issuewould be good.
I we touched briefly in thebeginning about
cross-designation and one thingthat we had is we had Title 21
authority from DEA with customs,and they had border search

(01:15:08):
authority, which makes adifference.
And border search authority isif you follow a load into the
United States or narcotics, youdon't need a search warrant, as
long as you have that in viewand can place it.
And a lot of times there'sthere's, you know, there's
delays in getting searchwarrants for whatever reasons.

(01:15:29):
It can be an assistant USattorney who you know doesn't
want to act on it quick enough.
It can be the judge.
It can be a lot of things.
So it was a very, very usefultool that we had and Title 21
was great.
And the most important thing iscamaraderie among the people

(01:15:49):
you're working with.
You don't want to haveadversity.
Competition is good, funcompetition, but you don't want
it between enforcement agencies.
You want them together and youwant to be able to solve the
issue and I think if they createthese kinds of things with
fentanyl, it'll at least startin the right direction.

(01:16:11):
So I just wanted to commend youon one thing before we go.
This book is great and the firstchapter will blow you away and
I'm not going to discuss it.
He knows it, he lived it.
He's a brave man, okay, and oneof the agents who was involved

(01:16:35):
in that became the head of miamioffice.
But it starts you right out.
So I'll just want to pay you acompliment for that, that that,
if that that got people'sattention, it got mine right
away because I was looking and Isaid you know, this is going to
be like the big cheese over theoffice and sack and you know,

(01:17:00):
down in, you know the countryattache the head of global
operations.
But it starts out like that andit paints such a relevant
picture for anybody that has anyinterest in the law enforcement
in 1980s okay, well, I'm buyingit.
You sold me see you got a saletoday, hey jeff, you and my

(01:17:25):
mother that's two well, I'm notgoing to check it out of the
toby library.

Speaker 3 (01:17:34):
I'm going to get a copy.
Take my time.

Speaker 2 (01:17:37):
I appreciate it.
No, it's done well.
I mean, I it's, it's.
It's actually gotten some very,very um fine reviews and uh and
some positive uh responses, soI'm, I feel blessed, yeah, and
all I wanted to do was tell thestory right.
Like toby knows, it's aperpetual play date.
It was the.
It was the best job that Icould imagine.

(01:17:57):
It was fun.

Speaker 1 (01:17:58):
I have one last proposal that I have his book.
I hope you have mine somewhere.
It's I do.
It's less pages.
You can read it at the beach.
That's that's what I tellpeople.
But I want you to come down.
We're going to go to go totobacco road.
We're going to sign each others, but I got to warn you, the

(01:18:19):
tobacco road is not what it usedto be.
It is now.
Remember.
The parking was like, you know,park for free or five bucks.
It's now like like new york,like the design district down
there, and it's like 25 to 30bucks to park there.
The Death Burger is cheaper thanthe parking, if you can believe

(01:18:41):
that.
Okay, and you know PaulPelletier, right, the prosecutor
, he's an ASA Very, very tough.
He came down there.
He lives in Washington.
He came down there and we metthere and he he's like I can't
believe how expensive this isnow.
And I said I said yeah, yeah, Isaid uh, it's changed a little

(01:19:05):
bit over the years, but I wantyou to come down when you're in
Miami.
We're going to meet there.

Speaker 2 (01:19:11):
Dave got us thank you know if you, if, if you spoke
to current AUSAs, assistant USattorneys or even current
federal agents today and youtried to explain to them what
Tobacco Road was like in Miamiat that time, it would be like

(01:19:33):
trying to explain to somebodytoday what, uh, an eight track
tape or even a 4578 LP recordwas like right, they, they, you
know, trying to teach a 11 yearold what that was like.
It's totally different.
I mean, it truly was once in alifetime, historical moment that

(01:19:57):
you and I were able to grow inthe cocaine cowboys era at
Ground Zero.
There was no comparison andwe're really lucky, amazingly
lucky, to have been a part of it, and we are also lucky to have

(01:20:18):
survived it.

Speaker 1 (01:20:19):
Yes, yes, even though our hair colors changed a
little bit over the years, youknow.
But that's life.

Speaker 2 (01:20:29):
I'm not.
I haven't lost color, I've justlost the hair.

Speaker 1 (01:20:32):
Well, I'm working on that.
Now it's going away, but youknow what can I say?
I had it for a long time.

Speaker 3 (01:20:40):
Mine's just migrated south.

Speaker 2 (01:20:45):
Yeah, but you've got the cool, you've got the peaky.
That's covering it.
I like that.
Hey, Jeff, listen, read thebook.
If you see some chapters thatyou like, we can get back on the
call again.

Speaker 3 (01:20:56):
We're going to do this again book.
If you see some chapters thatyou like, we can get back on the
call again.
We're gonna do.
I love this guys.
This is so much fun, it wasfantastic and I'm sure we're
gonna have a ton of comments.
So next time we get on we canmaybe answer some of the viewers
comments and uh, you know, keepthem moving definitely
absolutely.

Speaker 2 (01:21:07):
Let me know anytime you want to get together.

Speaker 1 (01:21:09):
This was a lot of fun okay, good people, see you at
tobacco road.
Take care, dave.
Appreciate it, dave, bye.