September 10, 2024 • 59 mins
In this episode, we sit down with Mariel Colon, a New York-based attorney who has represented clients like Joaquín "El Chapo" Guzmán and Jeffrey Epstein. Mariel opens up about her unique journey from aspiring to work in entertainment law to becoming a prominent figure in criminal defense, sharing the unexpected challenges and invaluable lessons learned along the way.
Mariel recounts her first encounter with a high-profile client at MCC New York, where she found herself navigating the meeting solo due to an absent attorney. We dive into the emotional and strategic complexities of building trust with clients under intense scrutiny, and the legal hurdles faced when defending those with notorious reputations. Mariel's insights highlight the balance between professional rigor and personal empathy, offering a rare glimpse into the realities of high-stakes legal battles.
But Mariel's ambitions don't stop at the courtroom. As she dreams of expanding her legal practice across states and making waves in the music industry, this episode also explores the personal side of her life, including her close-knit family dynamics and creative aspirations. From discussing the moral dilemmas in sentencing to the importance of humane treatment within the penal system, this conversation sheds light on the broader implications of justice and the power of empathy. Join us for an engaging discussion that bridges the worlds of law and music, revealing the nuanced challenges and triumphs of an extraordinary career.
Produced by: Citrustream, LLC
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Today's interview for Justice, then Justice Now.
I think everybody will findinteresting and informative.
I'm honored to have on thistoday Marielle Colon-Piro.
Marielle is an attorney out ofNew York.
She is you're going to be quitefascinated with her career.
(00:22):
She is also a professionalsinger and she'll talk about
that.
And, more important, she's a FOT, and that means a friend of
Toby and that's probably themost important thing, she is
very familiar with the work thatI've done and I'm very familiar
(00:43):
with the work that she's doneand I'll just say that and I
have ultimate respect for her inthe legal profession and in the
entertainment industry.
So I will turn this over to herand we'll start our informative
(01:05):
discussion.
How are you, mariel?
How are you feeling?
Speaker 2 (01:09):
Hi Toby, Thank you very much for that introduction.
I'm feeling well.
How about you?
How are you doing?
Speaker 1 (01:16):
Good, I'm okay.
I'm a little tired.
I had the flight from hellyesterday coming up.
I sat on the tarmac for two anda half hours because we had
rainstorms in orlando miami ormiami miami so, and of course,
was loaded with disney peoplecoming from latin america.
Kids, when are we going?
(01:37):
To get there when are we goingto see mickey?
You know all around me, so youknow it was oh, wow that sounds
like a nightmare.
Yeah, but but it worked out okayand and that, and I'm, uh, like
I said, really honored to haveyou on the show, because it's
going to be informative Um thankyou very much for the
(01:58):
invitation Of course, of course.
Uh, mariel, what I haveeverybody do is do a
self-introduction, and it'susually with your background,
your professional career,something with the criminal
justice system, about that, thatyou like and dislike, and uh,
you know.
And also I'd like to top talkabout your entertainment.
(02:22):
Go ahead, I'm sure you have alot to say on that topic.
Speaker 2 (02:32):
I rather not.
So.
Good morning everybody, orshould I say good afternoon.
My name is Mariel Colomero.
I am a New York-based criminaldefense attorney.
I also am a professional singeras well, and one thing I
dislike one of the many things Iguess I dislike about the
(02:54):
criminal justice system is how Iguess it's not necessarily the
criminal justice system, butmore so the issue there is with
lay people not understanding thelaw and then serving in a jury
(03:19):
panel and how that could affecta client.
Certainly clients like mine,where they're accused of a crime
and because there's otherpeople sitting down who don't
understand the law, may getunfairly judged or treated
(03:42):
because of it, because the lackof knowledge, the lack of
understanding, because peoplereally don't understand our
justice system.
So I feel like one thing Idon't like is the fact that our
society does not understand whata presumption of innocence is.
Speaker 1 (04:01):
Well, why don't you give us a little of your
background so people can reallyknow who you are, where you came
from?
I mean, I know obviously, butRight, right.
Speaker 2 (04:11):
So, like I said, I am a New York-based criminal
defense attorney.
I've been practicing law forsix years now, but most of you
know me or the people that doknow me know me because of my
first big case, which happenedto be also my first case in my
career, which was El Chapo.
I represented Joaquin GuzmanLoera El Chapo in a federal case
(04:36):
against him at the EDNY,eastern District of New York,
back since 2018.
And I'm still his attorney andwe you know we we've been
together since 2018.
We did the trial together.
Appeals went, try to go all theway to Supreme Court.
(04:57):
Supreme Court did not want tolisten to the case.
But, yeah, most people know methe most because of that case
and also because the JeffreyEpstein case, whom I also
represented for about a month.
And I guess the third case thatput me in the spotlight was El
(05:18):
Chapo's wife's case, emmaCornell.
So those are the three casesthat I'm most famous for.
Speaker 1 (05:24):
Yes, and I think that's got our audience's
attention with that.
And I do realize, and I need toinform everybody, that you will
talk as much as you can aboutthe individuals in the cases,
but, as someone who is in thecriminal justice system for
almost 50 years now, we respectthe attorney-client privilege
(05:48):
and there's things that youcannot talk about because of the
relationship that you have withthe clients involved.
So, with that, how did you getstarted in the legal profession
when you were young and you'restill very young, trust me but
(06:09):
how did you?
What made you want to be alawyer?
Speaker 2 (06:12):
So I always wanted to be a singer and I tell people
that I am a singer who became alawyer, not the opposite way,
Although I started, you know,the legal career before the
singing career.
But so I've always wanted to bea singer because I like
performing.
I still do, it was my firstpassion.
But my family wanted a more, Iguess, a different kind of
(06:40):
career for me with, I guess,with more, with a financial
stability, and I decided to goto law school.
Right, I went to.
I did my undergrad in LoyolaUniversity in New Orleans in
music business, and then I said,Okay, let me go to law school,
because then I can doentertainment law, and you know
that is related to theentertainment industry, which is
(07:00):
what I want, to what I want todo, what a?
But still there's somefinancial stability as a lawyer.
So I went to law school, but thefirst year, right off the bat,
I knew I did not want to bedoing a nine to five writing
contract for other people.
I knew that was boring andthat's what an entertainment
lawyer does, and I just did notwant to do that for myself.
And so I went and participatedin the criminal justice clinic
(07:27):
at my law school in New York.
I did that clinic and that'swhere I realized that's right.
Then and there I realized thatthat's really what I wanted to
do.
I wanted to do criminal work.
I wanted to do criminal defensework.
So very early on, since thevery first year of being in law
school, I realized that that'swhat I what I wanted to do.
(07:48):
I guess part of it it's because, as a criminal defense attorney
, you have to perform right.
You have to sell a story, justlike the prosecutors are doing
right.
They have their version, theirside of their story, and we have
our side of the story and youhave an audience which is the
judge and a jury, and youactually, you know, have to sell
this story.
And I thought that that wasfascinating to me.
(08:12):
And that was the first thingthat really like caught my
attention about this work.
And also then, as I got, as Igot more involved with it and I
was able to go to my visit,visit my first jail and interact
with my first clients right asa as an intern, I realized that
I also liked something aboutrepresenting the underdog right
(08:35):
or the accused criminal defenseside of the law, and I stuck
with it.
I finished.
I did a lot of internships atvarious public defender offices,
such as Legal Aid Society, theQueens Defenders, many other you
(08:57):
know different public defenderoffices within the state of New
York, which is where I was.
I was going to law school andafter I graduated, I sat for the
bar.
I was waiting to result and soI decided to go on Craigslist
and I go on Craigslist to andmany other websites indeed
(09:18):
Craigslist, many other websitestrying to find a job, because
now you know, I was waiting forthe bar results.
I no longer had student loans,my parents were no longer
helping me, so I needed to finda job and I found on Craigslist
an ad that said that they werelooking for a Spanish speaker
paralegal for a criminal defenselaw firm and I was like perfect
(09:42):
.
That's me.
You know there are not manyjobs for that.
For criminal defense firmsthere's mostly.
There's more like jobopportunities for, like, family
law or civil law, but very fewfor criminal defense.
So I applied right then andthere, immediately.
That's the.
It was very general.
It did not have anydescriptions of what I was going
(10:04):
to be doing or anything.
It was just that Spanishspeaker paralegal for a criminal
defense law firm, part time.
That's it.
I applied.
I remember they.
I applied, I send my email.
They didn't call me right thenand there.
And so I kept on sending theemail for about a week every day
, to make sure that my email wasat the top of the list.
My email was at the top of thelist.
They finally saw my email.
They called me.
(10:25):
They told me to go to a meeting.
I went to a meeting and thenthey sat down with me and
explained.
So we're a criminal defense lawfirm.
Right now we have a client whois incarcerated in a federal
institution in New York.
He's awaiting trial.
The reason why we need aSpanish speaker paralegal is
because the client does notspeak English.
(10:46):
All he needs he obviously hehas a constitutional right to
review all the evidence.
But because he can't readEnglish, we need somebody that
can translate it for him andalso explain it for him, and
somebody that's willing to go tofederal jail for this, you know
, three times a week.
And I said, ok, sounds easy,perfect, when do I start?
(11:07):
When they, when I asked that,they say, well, you know the
client is, we want to make surethat you're aware that the
client is, is this, this person?
And obviously, right then andthere I was like I really I kind
of knew the name, but rightthen and there I like my brain
did not click, like who it was.
(11:28):
So I was like, yeah, sure, isthat supposed to mean anything?
And I Googled him and once Isaw, like who it was, I was like
, oh yes, definitely I want thisjob.
Because immediately I saw it asa very big professional
opportunity for me.
Because immediately I saw it asa very big professional
opportunity for me.
You know most all of my, all mycolleagues, they spend 20, 30
(11:50):
years practicing law to get acase like this right.
So me being able to, even as aparalegal, being involved in a
case like this, meant that thatwas going to be professionally
amazing for me and I was goingto gain a lot of experience.
So it was like a, like a nobrainer for me and I accepted
(12:13):
the job.
I remember I had a.
I had to pass a like abackground check and many
different you know securityprotocols, because he's a Sam's
inmate, which which meant youknow a whole different set of
rules apply to him that don'tapply to a regular general
population inmate.
So you know, we did all of thatand once I was approved I
started visiting him and afterthat I kind of like you know, we
(12:35):
kind of he got very used to mystyle.
He liked you know how I workedwith him.
A few months after I finallygot the results back from the
bar, I had passed it, and so hethen hired me to stay on the
case as his attorney, and so I,instead of being a paralegal
(12:57):
then I became one of hisattorneys.
So it was a legal team, but Iwas one of the attorneys on the
legal team, a legal team, but Iwas one of the attorneys on the
legal team.
Speaker 1 (13:08):
Marielle, you're very modest and you know you've told
us this mystery guy who yourepresented on your first case
as a paralegal and now as hisattorney.
Tell the audience who it is.
Speaker 2 (13:20):
El Chapo Guzman, joaquin El Chapo Guzman.
Speaker 1 (13:25):
What do you think the odds of that happening were?
I mean, you must have beenoverwhelmed.
Speaker 2 (13:31):
Yes, I see it still to this day.
I'll always see it as ablessing, professionally.
I mean, this is the case youwant to be If you're a criminal
defense attorney and this iswhat you do.
This is a case that youliterally worked your entire
life to get, to get right a caselike this, and it was my first
case.
So to me, I could not believeit.
I saw it as literally, as aprofessional blessing, like
(13:54):
there's just no other way todescribe it.
Maybe some people would say ablessing.
You know that because theydon't understand it.
When you're a criminal defenseattorney and this is what you do
do, this is.
This is the type of case thatyou prepare yourself for to get
in the future at some point inyour life yes and uh.
Speaker 1 (14:12):
Yeah, what was your?
What was your the etiquette foryour first meeting with him?
I mean, how, how was thatarranged?
You just showed up at the jailand you had all your clearances
yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2 (14:24):
So so I I already had all my clearances and the
attorney that hired me she wassupposed to go with me to, you
know, make the introduction.
However she I'll never.
I, I still have my doubts aboutthis story, but on the day of
as I was already there, it waslike 20, we were supposed to
meet at five.
So she calls me at like 4 40.
She says are you there?
(14:45):
Because I'm not going to beable to make it, because I just
I just left my wallet in thesubway and all my ids, including
my bar card, where am I in mywallet?
So I cannot go in.
So you have two options you caneither wait two weeks while I
get all my ids and can get backto the you know go back inside
to the facility, or you can justgo in by yourself because you
(15:07):
back to the you know go backinside to the facility.
Or you can just go in byyourself because you have the
clearances.
You can't go by yourself.
I was like, listen, I'm notgoing to wait another month,
I've already waited.
I need to start working, andalso I wanted to meet this guy.
So I was like I'm going to go,I'm going to go in, and so I
(15:27):
went and it was my first timegoing to a federal institution
so like, so secured right bymyself.
So obviously, yeah, where wasthis mcc?
At the?
At the mcc new york, which isnow closed.
Yes, yes, so you know, and Iwent all the way to the shoe to
the 10th floor, 10 south, whichis like there's only four cells
were because that mcc closeddown but there were only four
cells on that floor and he was.
(15:48):
He was because and they wereall four cells for four
different sam's inmates, someaning inmates that had sam's
uh on them, right, the specialadministrative measure, and he
was one of them.
So there were only four inmatesthere.
He was one of them and so Iwould go to the 10th floor and I
would meet with him and uh,that was the first time.
(16:08):
So, obviously, and it was likefrom zero to a hundred, right on
my first, I guess, on my firstvisit to that institution.
So, uh, it was crazy, it waswild.
I felt anxious in the beginningbecause I was locked in a room
for like it must have been like30 minutes, but to me it felt
like two hours, while they wouldcome and get him.
Um, literally, I was like, oh,my god, I'm never getting out of
(16:32):
here.
You know it was, it was, it wasanxiety, like full-on blast.
But after that I I got used toit, I guess, and I started going
three days a week to see himfor three hours, but then it
became seven days a week.
So I was there every single day, including Saturdays and
Sundays, prepping for trial andobviously interacting with the
(16:53):
client.
So he obviously got to trust meand then when I became an
attorney, he hired me.
Speaker 1 (17:00):
What was his reaction ?
What was his reaction?
I mean most defendants, like athis level, which are high
profile, they're going to,they're going to expect somebody
(17:21):
coming in my age, you know withwhitish gray hair, coming in to
see him, and you showed up andit's like what was his reaction
I could imagine, I guess?
Speaker 2 (17:25):
well, I guess because they were looking for paralegal
.
Paralegals are young, so Ithink that he already knew that
it was going to be a youngperson, maybe fresh out of law
school or fresh out of aparalegal course, or you know
somebody.
There's not and at least in myexperience there's not many
older paralegals.
I'd say they're fairly young,you know, in their mid-20s to
(17:50):
early 40s at least my experienceright, the ones that I've met.
So I think that he knew that itwas going to be somebody young.
Maybe, you know, a law studentor something like that, I don't.
I mean, we just started talking, started talking like he really
didn't have a reaction.
He just wanted to get to knowwho I was, obviously who it was,
who I was, who he was going tobe working with and same with me
(18:12):
.
Um, I was obviously curiousabout many things, um and so,
but obviously some of them Ikept to myself until later on.
Uh, some others, you know, Ifelt like I could ask and it was
it.
Just it was.
It was very much a relationshiplike a, like a professional
relationship, but like you alsohave to establish some rapport,
it's impossible not to whenyou're spending hours a day,
(18:36):
seven days a week, with a person, obviously.
So you talk about, abouteverything, not just work.
Um, you know life, trips,anything, politics, everything.
I wanted to also understand hisbrain a little bit.
Um, music, and I think he didtoo.
He did so too, uh, so that'sthat's how it was, at least for
(18:59):
me I.
I learned a lot also along theway, um, because in a case like
this, you learn a lot, andthere's things that you'll never
learn in law school that a highprofile case like this will
teach you.
First of all, in law school,they don't teach you how to deal
with the press.
They don't teach you how todeal with somebody that already
has a reputation, a negativereputation, and how do you
represent somebody that'salready stained Right?
(19:21):
That's already stained right.
Nobody, everybody knew.
I mean, there was not a singleperson in the jury and the
people that we actually, youknow, like interviewed for
potential jurors, that didn'tknow who he was or that had seen
the Netflix show.
So it's hard to defend somebodylike that in a case like that,
because he's already there'salready a public opinion forum
(19:43):
and he's already condemned bythe press, I guess.
So that's something that youlive, you learn.
Also, the public eye is alwayson you, so you have to behave
different.
There's certain things that youcan't do.
You have to be very carefulwhat you talk to, who do you
talk to?
It's many things that you knowthat really, law school doesn't
(20:06):
prepare you for um and alsoother.
You know legal aspects that um,uh, they don't prepare you for.
That you know.
Really, I had to learn in likea matter of months uh, I didn't
have 30 years to learn them, ohyeah what was the reaction of
the us attorney's office, theausas and the agents, when you
(20:29):
know you became his lawyer?
Speaker 1 (20:30):
what was, what was that they?
Speaker 2 (20:32):
gave me, they gave me a, they gave me a lot of shit.
I'm just gonna call it how itis.
I don't care if they're seeingthis I hope that they're
watching this podcast becausethey were hard on me.
I think that they felt, I think, right, this is what this is
all speculation.
I was a young attorney, straightout of law school, so I think
that that was unsettling.
(20:53):
I think that they were nervousabout that, because I think that
they maybe thought that I coulddo things because I could be
persuaded, maybe, or that youknow I could, that I just didn't
have the maturity because Icould be persuaded, maybe, or
that you know I could, um, thatI just didn't have the maturity
or the experience to be in acase like this.
So I don't think that theyliked that and they tried it.
(21:13):
They tried to remove me fromthe case.
They oh my God, they did manythings to try to remove from the
case.
They did it, which I'm notgoing to get into, but they,
they played a bit dirty, um, youknow dirty, you know, and I
also had to learn that.
I also had to learn very earlyon that the US government is not
your friend, Not always.
Speaker 1 (21:34):
No, not always, but I know as an agent.
If I was in that situation, Iwould be talking to the AOSA
saying let's get a plea bargainin, let's get this thing in, and
maybe we'll pull the wool oversomebody's eyes.
No, I'm being serious on that.
That is a ploy that thegovernment will use in that kind
(21:57):
of situation.
So did you ask any time for achange of venue or anything like
that?
Was it considered it was goingto be tried there?
Speaker 2 (22:08):
Listen, we did not just because where could we put
this trial?
That people don't know who heis?
Where could we have taken thistrial?
Speaker 1 (22:16):
Maybe North Dakota or something like that.
Yeah, the Middle East, no yeah.
Speaker 2 (22:22):
Everybody knows.
Everybody knows who he is.
Speaker 1 (22:27):
So, there's.
Speaker 2 (22:28):
It doesn't matter which state, it doesn't matter
Like he, obviously it.
It's kind of like Trump, whodoesn't know who Trump was Like,
tell me, you know.
So when you have somebody likethat, really there is no venue
that's going to like be morefavorable to you, or you know,
or if anything, you do want ademocratic state.
(22:50):
You don't want a Republicanstate, right In a case like that
involves a Latino man, so youwant maybe a place where you can
get more Latinos on the jurypanel, but that really doesn't
mean anything when it comes downto it.
It really doesn't.
You know, when it comes down toit, it really doesn't.
Um, you know, it's allspeculation, boy dear, and jury
selection it's really all aboutspeculation.
(23:11):
You know, there are certainthings that you can, you know,
try to get, but, um, I rememberthat we had, we had our jury
panel and we had it all.
We thought that we we wereready and the day the trial
started, this juror decides thathe wants to tell a marshal that
(23:33):
he wants to get an autographfrom chapel.
He wants a chapel's autograph.
So obviously he was already inand we had to get the jury back
in, and obviously he wasdismissed and we had to get
another juror because you knowthe government claimed that.
Yeah, you know he was a fan.
He was not going to be.
You know he was going to bebiased or whatever, but yeah
(23:58):
well, that's so, that's amazing.
Speaker 1 (24:00):
Um, so, that was that's tough.
Speaker 2 (24:02):
He should have stayed quiet.
He should have stayed silent.
You know he could have.
He should have asked for theautograph once the trial was
over.
Speaker 1 (24:08):
Oh, yeah, no that wasn't obviously at the Voidere
hearing a question like that.
Speaker 2 (24:13):
Seriously.
Speaker 1 (24:15):
Do something with celebrity status or a question
with that, so that's interesting.
So you also represent the wifeand can you talk about that a
little bit?
Speaker 2 (24:32):
Yes, I represent the wife.
She also served time for aconspiracy as well, a different
conspiracy than him, but sheserved three years, two and a
half, three years, somethingaround those lines, um, but now
she's out, she's on probationand I'm still representing her.
(24:53):
So I, we, we, you know we, mycolleague jeffrey lickman and I,
we worked on that case togetherand now she's out I'm still
working with her, but on otheruh matters as well.
Just because you know thecriminal case is over, other
matters as well, just becauseyou know the criminal case is
over pretty much, I'm stillworking with him as well.
I still go visit him.
(25:13):
Right now we're working ontrying to get his conditions of
confinement relaxed a little bit.
Essentially, we're trying toget the SAMs either removed or
modified, which it's going to bea battle.
It's not going to be very easy.
I'm sure bop and doj are notgoing to make it easy for us,
but you know we got to try okay,and uh, I'm assuming that he's
(25:37):
still in the location wherethere's a lot of skiing right in
in, uh he, he is, he is in inflorence and ad max, the super
max, so the Alcatraz yeah,that's how they call it.
so it's, I guess it's the mostsecure prison.
It's a federal institution, atleast in the US, and that's
(26:03):
where he's at.
He's in unit H, which is wherethey mostly have all the SAMs
and Mates as well, and it's ahe's at.
He's in Unit H, which is wherethey mostly have all the SAMs
inmates as well, and it's a very, you know, restricted unit and
he is alone in his cell 24 hoursa day, seven days a week.
He's not a general populationinmate, so he cannot like
interact with other inmates.
He eats inside of himself, heshowers inside, he does
(26:26):
everything in his cell.
Speaker 1 (26:27):
So the only time that he really speaks to someone is
when I go visit him okay,because we've we have had
several inmates that were inthat institution and they
describe it exactly like you doon the show.
Speaker 2 (26:42):
We I don't know they're with.
Inside of that institution,though, there's unit h, which is
the worst unit, and thenthere's other different units
inside of supermax, but he's inthe worst one yeah, yeah right.
Speaker 1 (26:57):
I know some of the individuals that are situated in
that unit there.
Um, yeah, there's not a,there's a few, but yeah there's
a a few going back that weremoved out of Marion into that
that I dealt with.
So what is his wife is nowreleased here.
Speaker 2 (27:19):
She's released.
Yes, she's obviously in herprobation period, but she is in
the United States.
Speaker 1 (27:25):
Yes, that was my next question with that.
Speaker 2 (27:29):
Um, yes, she's a U S citizen too, so Right, yeah,
yeah, I know she is.
She wasn't deported becauseshe's a U S citizen.
Speaker 1 (27:37):
Right, right.
Uh, you know I have a littleexperience with that.
You know from case that Iworked where somebody was in
double life sentence and I tookthem.
I took them home to the airportand they went back.
Speaker 2 (27:51):
You're brave, huh, you're brave, you're brave.
Speaker 1 (27:55):
I was a little nervous because she was released
to my custody, which I think isvery, very unique to the whole
system.
Speaker 2 (28:02):
Yeah, oh, yeah, oh yeah, so it's.
Speaker 1 (28:05):
it's like 30 years later, amazing things do happen
in life with that.
Speaker 2 (28:13):
Do you think that'll ever happen at Guzman?
Speaker 1 (28:18):
I don't think so.
I mean, you know the agentsbetter than me and the judge.
Speaker 2 (28:23):
I don't think there's going to be a Toby on that team
.
I don't think there's going tobe a Toby on that team.
I don't know?
Speaker 1 (28:29):
Yeah, you would know.
You would know they rolled outthe red carpet for you when you
came.
So that's what.
I have to say and we had thesupport of the prosecutor, which
(28:55):
was very, very important.
Yeah, no, I don't think we havethat either.
No, no, but you't think we havethat either.
Tell me how you got involvedwith Jeffrey Epstein.
Speaker 2 (29:06):
So Jeffrey Epstein, he was incarcerated there around
the same time when Guzman'strial was over.
He was awaiting sentence, but Iwas still visiting him because
(29:33):
we were working on an appeal andother motions that you know
that we were filing because ajuror went on to Vice News, the
newspaper, and said that theyhad violated, you know, the
judges rules while on trial,that they were like they did not
stay away from the press.
So we were, you know, in thetrying to fight that and trying
to see if we could get a new, anew trial before sentencing.
Or you know, yeah, that, andtrying to see if we could get a
new trial before sentencing.
Or you know, yeah, exactly, anew trial.
Essentially we tried.
So he was awaiting sentence tobe sentenced.
(30:02):
So Epstein arrives and Epsteinwas represented, he had a legal
team, but one of the attorneyswas also one of the attorneys
that was representing Guzman onthe appellate level, mark
Pernish, also one of theattorneys that was representing
Guzman on the appellate level,mark Pernish.
And so I guess Epstein askedMark he also needed an attorney
(30:22):
that would visit him regularly,meaning every day, to go over
all that evidence, and a youngerattorney, obviously, that would
do this, because once you getto a certain point in your
career, I don't know why mycolleagues, they just don't want
to go to the jail, they don'twant to visit clients, they
don't Right.
So they leave that work toyounger attorneys like me to do
(30:45):
the dirty work of going to jail,I guess, and meeting with the
client.
So he asked me if I would beyou know.
So he said you know, do youknow of somebody?
He actually told him, I guess,do you know of somebody that
could you know, a young attorneythat could you know do this?
I remember his words were likewell, to me at least, it's like
the only crazy person that Iknow that can stand going to
(31:05):
that prison, to that jail everyday is this attorney.
And so he hired me the next dayI went.
So literally Chapo gotsentenced on a Thursday and
Friday I was already hired to gothen to start visiting Epstein.
I remember the guards were likeyour client was just sentenced
and moved Because he wassentenced and usually normal
(31:26):
inmates, they're sentenced andthen they go back to that same
jail and they'll move themwithin a month, you know two
months.
No, no, no, no, no.
He was sentenced and that sameday he was moved to colorado.
Literally he did not get back.
He did not go back to ncc, hewent straight to colorado.
On that same thursday and, uh,the next day I started visiting
(31:48):
Epstein and it was obviously wewere a legal team but the
younger attorneys were therereviewing evidence with him and
all of that, and I guess I wentin for the job interview and I
got it.
Speaker 1 (32:02):
Wow, and what was that?
What was that like?
I mean, you must have beenmaking a name for yourself, you
know because and you did,obviously.
But you know you'rerepresenting two of the highest
profile cases in the UnitedStates and they're wondering
(32:22):
like, how did this happen andhow did you get this?
And what was Jeffrey Epstein'sreaction to you getting hired?
Speaker 2 (32:31):
I mean, he's the one that hired me.
So, yeah, because I went in,mark sent me, right, the
attorney, the other attorneysent me, but he ultimately hires
his attorneys.
So he interviewed me and hiredme then and there he said, okay,
yes, yeah, his attorneys.
So he interviewed me and hiredme then and there he said, okay,
(32:51):
yes, yeah.
So, um, that's that's how I gotin on that case.
I guess all my clients havehired me because, yeah, guzman
may not have hired me as aparalegal, but he's, he hired me
as an attorney.
So that's how it's been withall my clients they've, they've
hired me.
Uh, I guess they see a positiveasset, a value, uh, and what I
(33:12):
bring to the table, even thoughI'm not the most experienced one
, and they, they know that,obviously, they understand that,
but I have a, I guess, apurpose and I do it right.
Speaker 1 (33:22):
Uh you know, we all have.
We all have a role in the kidsthey know you're gonna fight for
them, and that's a good thing.
That's how I get hired as a PI.
You know because I have to whenI deal, and you know what I
deal with.
I deal with all cooperators andvictims.
That's my specialty as far asthat.
Speaker 2 (33:47):
I get very passionate about my cases and my clients
and I guess that they like that.
With this line of work that Ido, it's easy to lose empathy as
a criminal defense attorneyafter a while.
I've seen it in my colleaguesthey lose empathy.
But I haven't lost that and Ithink that's one of the reasons
why even though.
(34:15):
I'm not the most experiencedone.
They keep on hiring me becausethey want somebody like that
also in their corner.
Okay, I keep on getting hiredand obviously I'm still learning
along the way and I have a lotto learn.
But you know I, you know that'swhat I'm, that's what I'm doing
and I fight with them.
I fight for them, with theminside of jail, getting better.
(34:37):
You know conditions, everything.
You know stuff that mostattorneys really overlook
because they focus on the legalstuff, like prison conditions
are very important to thembecause they're living it daily
and, um, they like that, I, I dothat like they like that.
I don't.
I don't get tired of emailingbop, the wardens, the counselors
10 times a day until I get youknow the little thing that
(35:02):
they're asking for.
Or you know, sometimes they're,sometimes they're unreasonable
requests.
Some but most times aren't,most times are just basic human
needs, like an extra sheet, ablanket or you know a clean
uniform or literally.
There are things like sometimesthey're just basic human things
that you know.
The jails jails in the us aretough.
(35:23):
You know we say that we havelike one of the best systems.
No, we don't Like they're tough.
They're tough on inmates.
They're not designed to reenteryou into society.
They're not.
They should be, but they're not.
Speaker 1 (35:42):
Yeah, sometimes they school people on what they're
doing.
Speaker 2 (35:47):
They're straight up punitive.
Yeah, and that's how it is.
Speaker 1 (35:50):
Yeah, and sometimes in my experience, which may
differ with you is they schoolthemselves on other things on
the inside, so when they get outthey can go back and be
recidivists.
Okay, so you know it's boththey could be.
Yeah, so they also have thatalso have.
Speaker 2 (36:08):
They could be too, but they could be too, but
because there's there's there'sno options to you know if there
were other options for them.
To listen when sometimes theydo it even out of necessity,
like you get back and the wholeworld is turning your back.
You can't find a job, you can't, you can't find a place to to
live because they won't rent you, they literally they treat you
(36:30):
differently.
So sometimes and I'm notjustifying them by any means,
but sometimes they just don'thave other options If they don't
have a support system like afamily that will support them on
the outside.
Nine out of 10 times, yes,they're going to go back because
they don't have another optionand they don't know how and they
were not taught how to do itdifferently, because there is
(36:51):
not a system in place really forthem Halfway house to this.
That's not effective.
Speaker 1 (37:00):
So you're obviously opposed to minimum mandatory
sentencing right to minimummandatory sentencing right.
Speaker 2 (37:07):
I not necessarily.
What I'm opposed to is the waythe prison system works, right,
okay.
Speaker 1 (37:21):
however, I am definitely opposed to life
sentences okay, yeah, and Idon't, I, I'm not, I'm sorry no,
no, and I mean, is that alllife sentences or let me?
Let me just state my opinion,uh, which I do quite frequently.
(37:44):
As far as killing cops, I thinkyou well, I believe in capital
punishment for that, and I knowstates it varies with life
sentences and capital punishment, your views on that.
You're a defense attorney and Iunderstand that, and your
(38:05):
background is a very religiousbackground too, like mine was
and it still is, except I miss alot of masses, but that's my
own fault.
What do you think about thatCop killers and people like that
that are incarcerated for,let's say, a mass murder, a
(38:25):
child rapist?
Speaker 2 (38:29):
So you want my professional opinion or my
personal opinion and I get.
Those get mixed.
Speaker 1 (38:35):
I like both.
Speaker 2 (38:36):
When we talk about when.
Well, personally, like you saidexactly, I'm a very religious
person and I don't think that Iam capable to judge other
person's actions or to determinewhat is a good punishment for
your sins, for what you've done.
So I am opposed to lifesentences or capital punishment
(38:56):
for that reason, because who amI to determine what you should
get?
What you should get?
Uh, obviously, now,professionally speaking, I
understand that because thereare no other alternatives in
place.
Sometimes that is the onlyoption.
I understand that.
That doesn't mean that I, likeI said, personally agree with it
, but I, I understand it.
(39:17):
Obviously I can't change it,that this, the system that I,
that I work in, is a system thatwe live in and that's that um.
But I feel like um sometimesbecause, for example, take, take
a take.
Take a person that, like, has amental, a mental issue, and he
just kills and kills and killsand he can't control himself.
(39:39):
Well, you're, you're, you'repunishing that person, whether
it be killing her or him, orgiving it a life sentence,
because he has a mental issuethat he can't control, right,
but at the same time, that thatmental issue is hurting others.
So the only alternative islet's lock him up for the rest
(40:00):
of his life or let's end hislife.
So, but because there's noother alternative.
So I get it, but I just don't.
Morally I, who am I todetermine what you should get
for the sin or the crime thatyou committed?
Speaker 1 (40:14):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (40:15):
And that's just the way I see it.
Speaker 1 (40:16):
No, and that's that's a good legal point, no more a
morality point.
Morality point I've experiencedprisoners that I've had that
have introduced themselves to meby saying good morning, Mr
Roach.
Nothing personal, but I'm doingmultiple life sentences.
If I get a chance to kill you Iwill try to escape immediately
and I know that's mostly a formof intimidation.
(40:39):
The reality is it's not goingto happen, they're not going to
escape from me.
But again, there are some thatsome of the gangs that are in
prison that and these arevicious criminals.
This isn't white collar crimeor anything like that that I've
(41:00):
dealt with in that so hopefullyyou don't have to deal with
those.
Um right, okay so I haven't.
Speaker 2 (41:08):
I haven't.
But you know, obviously, if youask me somebody, uh take for
example, conspiracy, drugconspiracies, most of them,
literally, because of theminimum mandatories they get
life or 30 plus.
I don't think that for drugconspiracies you should get a
(41:30):
life sentence.
But then again, obviously youknow, I just follow the system,
I don't make the rules.
And hey, listen, you have yourown experience with Evelyn.
And hey, listen, you have yourown experience with Evelyn.
I want to hear about you andwhat you thought that she should
have gotten a life sentence youthought when you put her in
(41:52):
jail, right, were you happy thatshe was going to get a life
sentence?
Speaker 1 (42:00):
Did you think that she deserved it?
I thought I knew there was aminimum mandatory sentencing
which the judge, who was a very,very good judge that released
her and incarcerated her, had tofollow.
She wouldn't talk to us.
She was an individual who wasbeaten by her husband and we all
knew that.
She had improper legalrepresentation, who was
(42:21):
representing the Cali cartel, tobe quite frank about it, and we
knew that the self-interest.
He's since passed away and Ifeel with him, there was a
special place in hell for himbecause he didn't represent his
client truthfully, truthfully.
(42:47):
And as far as Evelyn, yeah, shewas abused.
We gave her every opportunityto speak with us and probably
would have received five to 10years under what was laid out in
front of her for that.
So again, she's much moreproductive back in Columbia, in
my personal and professionalopinion, than sitting in
(43:08):
Tallahassee for the next 40years.
Speaker 2 (43:12):
But she had minimum mandatory.
So take a case like that.
Maybe she wasn't deserving of aminimum mandatory, but because
that is how the law is, that'swhat she got.
So I wish that it was case bycase and not, you know, you just
have to follow the guidelinesand that's it.
So that is my thing with thewith the minimum mandatories,
but I guess that is a topic foranother day.
Speaker 1 (43:33):
No, it's a huge topic .
Speaker 2 (43:35):
They're not just there.
They sometimes don't justify,they're not just it's a, it's a,
you know, a blank slate, likeit's like same for everybody and
that's it.
But I think that it should beon a case by case.
Um, when you're going tosentence, you're going to
sentence someone, especially ifyou're going to cut that person
completely.
You know, uh, you know hisliberty and you're going to put
(43:57):
that person essentially in hellfor the next.
You know, whatever x amount ofyears, like it has to be
proportionate I the punishmentto what you did and their
circumstances.
Right, that lets you to do that.
But the system doesn't worklike that and that's why I don't
like the minimum mandatories.
Speaker 1 (44:14):
Yeah, and like I remember, when the crackademic
occurred, they had peoplegetting life sentences for as
addicts, you knows, with theintent to sell and that's what
it fell under with that, becausethere was a big panic when it
came in.
And I wonder about the newsituation with fentanyl, because
(44:36):
now that's a real problembecause it's coming in from
China and places like that intoMexico.
And I had the head of theMexico City office for DEA, who
retired on the show and he'sjust with fentanyl.
He says that's going to destroythings.
(44:57):
It's wiping out 125,000 people.
That's a small city in theStates and you know, and I you
know I have my own politicalbeliefs which I don't put on
this show and I don't want it onthere.
But as far as border control,that needs to be enhanced, you
(45:26):
know something that yourgeneration will deal with the
effects in 20 years, when I'msitting in the nursing home
trying to remember my nameKidding, but you get my point.
Speaker 2 (45:34):
Don't say that.
I'm sure your daughter won'tallow that to happen to you.
Speaker 1 (45:39):
No, no.
Even my ex-wife won't allowthat to happen to me, hopefully.
So again, you're such a lawyer,you're turning it on me.
That's why you're a good lawyer, marielle because you know how
to turn the tables.
Let's talk about your singingcareer.
I'm amazed with that becausethat was your, your childhood
(46:04):
dream and you've accomplishedthat too, and that must make
your family very.
I know it makes your familyvery proud to have that happen
too.
Can you talk about that aspecta little bit?
With the videos and she hasgreat videos online that I've
seen, uh online that I've seenand uh, they're, they're,
(46:29):
they're uh thought-provoking anduh morally very good.
I like the one with themilitary ending in it.
I don't want to spoil itbecause I want people to watch
it, but uh, can you talk aboutthat a little?
Speaker 2 (46:37):
bit okay, yeah, of course.
So, like I said I, I knew Iwanted to be a singer since a
very early age.
My dad is a, uh, musicaldirector and and performer and
drummer in in puerto rico and soI always, always around music,
I was always around that, thatthat scene, the entertainment
(46:57):
world.
I would go to his rehearsals, Iwould go to his shows and
everything.
And from a very early age Iknew I wanted to be a singer, I
knew I wanted to be a performer.
Um, my parents, uh, wanted amore traditional career for me,
especially my dad, because hewas inside of the entertainment
industry and he knew how hard itwas and that there's really not
(47:18):
a lot of room for people.
It's very competitive and youknow it's just it's it's, it's a
tough world, the entertainmentindustry.
So he tried to, he tried to, Iguess not, you know he tried to.
He tried his best to like,steer me away from it.
But when something is yourpassion, it just is.
(47:38):
So I was a good girl.
I went to, you know, law school.
I did.
I got a, I guess, a moretraditional career, how they
want it.
But I turned 30, to what?
Last year?
No, the year before, and I wentthrough a bariatric surgery.
(48:00):
I was, I was very I, I wasoverweight, I was almost 200.
I was actually 200 pounds, andso I went to, I did a, I got a
bariatric surgery and I lost alot of weight.
And when I lost a lot of weight, I guess I found myself again,
and I found I regained myconfidence, and with that, you
(48:22):
know, I also regained the desireand the passion for the music
and like it.
Just, it was something that Iturned 30.
I look, I look like this.
Now I want to do this because Idon't want to.
I I don't want to not dosomething in my life because,
you know, out of fear, I, like Iwanted to do it.
(48:43):
It was something that, if Ididn't do, I was going to regret
.
I feared that I was going toregret it.
So I spoke to my family and Ispoke to some of my colleagues
and I told them you know, thisis something that I've always
wanted to do and I feared thatif I don't do it, I'm going to
regret it 30, 40 years now.
I am very scared that if I dothis, though, that I'm going to
lose credibility, and I'm goingto lose my you know my
(49:09):
credibility as an attorney andthat people are maybe not going
to see me as a professionalattorney anymore and they're
just going to see me as aperformer, and that it may
affect my practice.
But I'm more scared that if Idon't do this, I'm going to
regret it and I don't want tolive with that regret,
especially because it's mypassion, it's what I've always
wanted to do.
I don't want to live with thatregret, especially because it's
my passion, it's what I'vealways wanted to do and I'm good
at it too.
So I spoke to my family andthey understood.
I spoke to my colleagues andthey thought that I should do it
(49:30):
and I decided to do it.
I decided to do itprofessionally because I always
sang, I always took lessons, butit was more like as a hobby,
not professionally, like I'mdoing it now, and I went for it
and I am very involved in theoriginal Mexican.
Even though I'm Puerto Rican, Ising.
(49:51):
All I do is sing.
All I sing is original Mexicanmusic and I am loving every,
every single step of it.
I'm loving every singleexperience.
I've already have six singlesout uh, with all my, my lyrics.
Obviously they're very I, Iwrite.
I write my music with, with myproducers.
(50:12):
So I'm very involved in thecreative process and in the
writing and the compositionprocess.
Um, because I write mostlyabout my experiences, or
people's experiences, like youknow, personal experiences,
because I want people to feelidentified with my music and
with what you know, I've lived,and I also, I think, that shows,
(50:33):
or I project that on my videos,because all my videos they have
storylines, like you said, um,that many people can relate to.
So, yeah, so I'm very happywith the direction that aspect
of my life is taking.
I am working right now on an EP, which is an electronic
(50:57):
production, which is a smallalbum.
It's going to have five to sixsongs.
Right now I'm working on thefourth one and I'm very, very
excited, excited.
It should come out in august.
So this summer I have now,between these, like four to six
weeks.
I have a lot of work likefilming music videos, going to a
recording uh studio, uh, anddoing a lot of stuff and then,
(51:20):
um, but I'm very excited, I'mvery excited to see uh for the
people right, really to see youknow the, the work that I'm
doing and uh connect with my,with my music.
I'm still going to be anattorney.
That's something I'm not gonna,you know.
I'm not gonna stop being anattorney.
I'm still gonna do that.
I still have cases.
I just picked up a new case inthe in the picked up a new case
(51:48):
in the Washington DC district, afederal case, involving also
conspiracy to distribute, youknow, narcotics and whatnot.
That's mostly what they call mefor.
So I'm still doing both.
I'm still doing both careers.
I I think I found the uh, theway to match them both and and
just be, you know, present atboth no, that's great.
Speaker 1 (52:12):
Um, I'm I'm sure this will end up being a story for
hollywood down the line.
Speaker 2 (52:20):
I know it will be might have some insider
information, but uh, it don'thope it's, it's gonna happen.
Speaker 1 (52:28):
We know that.
It's just.
Just.
Like you know, I I don't likesaying everything's blessed in
life, you've worked foreverything you have.
I mean, this is your singingvoice is great, even though I
don't understand the spanish and, like I said, it's uh you know
the translation you can't trainme, I can't.
(52:49):
I I play the bandajo, Iunderstand, but as far as me
speaking it, forget about it, itain't gonna happen.
So with that, oh wow, yeah, butI've.
But some people, you know, havetried to teach me it, but I'm a
failure with that.
Speaker 2 (53:08):
At least you understand it.
That's the most important thing.
So you know they're talkingabout it too, or not?
Speaker 1 (53:13):
I pretend that I don't, though I like that, you
know, because I like hearing.
As soon as I hear gringo myears perk up, you know, and I
say, here comes somethingderogatory.
And I heard that from Evelyntoo, way back in the day and I
remind her of that constantly.
Speaker 2 (53:30):
Oh really.
Speaker 1 (53:31):
Constantly yes, yes, that's funny.
So what are your future plans?
I mean, you know, where do yousee yourself in 20 years from
now?
Speaker 2 (53:47):
to yourself in 20 years from now.
So I see myself as still beingan attorney, but also, you know,
a singer.
I still on the legal aspect.
I see myself expanding mypractice.
Right now I'm only in, so mypractice is in New York City,
but I want to also take otherstate bars and expand my
practice, maybe also put a firmin Florida, maybe one in Puerto
(54:11):
Rico as well, where we do stateand federal cases, and also
hiring more attorneys to helpand everything and the on the
other aspect, right on the onthe on the entertainment, uh, uh
career or the singing career, Isee myself hopefully, you know,
(54:33):
being a very successful bigartist.
You know, uh, very renamed andum, just being able to to make
money out of the two things thatI like the most in life, and I
think that once you do that, itdoesn't feel like work.
Speaker 1 (54:53):
Yeah Well, who knows, maybe you'll get an Academy
award winning song in nearfuture, you?
Speaker 2 (54:59):
know, I definitely, definitely, definitely.
But that's.
I hope that within the next atleast years at least I get a
grammy yeah, yeah, well that'slatin grammy and a grammy both
there you go double,double-edged sword.
Speaker 1 (55:13):
That's uh, that's what I always, always say that's
, that's the goal.
That's, that's the goal yeah,well, I want say I don't see
myself having kids, don't wantkids.
Don't want kids.
No, okay, I have a beautiful.
Speaker 2 (55:30):
I have a beautiful.
No, I have a beautiful nephew,but I don't don't want kids.
Speaker 1 (55:35):
Okay, yeah, that's.
That's a big challenge initself, but you know, with your
nephew that's quite wonderful.
Speaker 2 (55:47):
More than enough.
Yeah, I'm going to have asecond one now, so oh, I didn't
know that.
Speaker 1 (55:51):
That's good, that's congratulations.
Speaker 2 (55:53):
Yeah, they're pregnant.
She's five weeks pregnant.
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (55:58):
And her family is very patriotic.
If I can mention your brother,he's in the military, serving
our country.
Speaker 2 (56:06):
Yes, yes, he actually is in the—well.
He was in the Navy but he wasable to—one of the very few
people that can do that but hewas able to switch branches and
now he's in the Marines.
And right now he's in Quanticoin a training, a five-week
training where he can'tcommunicate with nobody.
He's on one of those trainingcamps, or whatever they call it
(56:33):
Recon camp.
Speaker 1 (56:33):
He's now on.
Speaker 2 (56:36):
Right, right, right, so now he's a Marine Corps.
Speaker 1 (56:38):
Okay.
Speaker 2 (56:39):
Yeah, I was looking on the Facebook page so they
have a Facebook page and I saw apicture of him and they had
just shaved his entire head.
Speaker 1 (56:49):
Yeah, He'll get over it.
Speaker 2 (56:52):
I sent him letters already.
I'm waiting for him to respond.
I know they have barely time todo anything, but he'll respond
obviously.
Speaker 1 (57:02):
Yeah, anything, but yeah, he'll respond, obviously.
Yeah, well, just don't send himliquor in the mail, because the
the, uh, the other people razzhim and they'll drink it,
especially if you get some goodpuerto rican rum to send to him,
you know yeah he, he, you, I'llbe able to.
Speaker 2 (57:19):
So he graduates, uh, in august.
Now, uh, I don't know exactlywhat he's doing.
This is five weeks.
Speaker 1 (57:24):
He's not going to tell you.
That's why he's in that job?
Speaker 2 (57:28):
I don't know you know .
Speaker 1 (57:29):
Yeah, you can't tell me Whatever they're doing.
Speaker 2 (57:33):
I'll be able to talk to him in August 3rd, yeah, so
yeah, I'm very excited, but he'slike a tough, you know, he's
literally the opposite of me,obviously.
Speaker 1 (57:48):
Yeah, well, yeah, he's very different.
Speaker 2 (57:50):
He's very like you know.
He's very military, he's verypro-government, he's very, yeah,
very different.
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (57:59):
Can I mention he's an MMA fan.
Speaker 2 (58:02):
Yeah, of course, and he is a former fighter as well,
yeah, that's pretty amazing thathe was in that.
I just left that world a couplemonths ago as far as sitting on
the sidelines with that, butthat's why I'm able to, but I
don't know which one's worseseeing your baby brother in the
(58:24):
Marines doing whatever he'sdoing, which I don't know, or
seeing him in the cage fighting.
It's like really, kid, You'regoing to kill me and my mom.
Speaker 1 (58:33):
Well, that's what he wants to do.
You know he wants to get at hissister.
You know, that's how it is.
Of course right, it's how it isOf course right, same way you
know, and that.
But no, I appreciate you verymuch coming on here.
No, thank you for the inviteTurning the tables on me.
(58:53):
Only a lawyer can do that.
We just had Evelyn's.
It's on YouTube now the podcastwith him.
He's Paul Pelletier.
He the podcast with him.
He's Paul Pelletier.
He was the prosecutor, okay andgood guy Complete opposite of
me as far as politics andpersonality, and that even
(59:18):
though we're both from theCommonwealth of Massachusetts.
I was on a different team, butyeah, he was a great prosecutor
and an honest person, just likeyou are.
Speaker 2 (59:29):
Just take it on.
Challenges, take it onchallenges.
Speaker 1 (59:33):
So anyway, it's been a pleasure.
Thank you, Mariel.
I'll talk with you soon.
Speaker 2 (59:37):
Thank you so much, bye Thank you, Toby Bye.
Thanks.
Today's interview for Justice, then Justice Now.
I think everybody will findinteresting and informative.
I'm honored to have on thistoday Marielle Colon-Piro.
Marielle is an attorney out ofNew York.
She is you're going to be quitefascinated with her career.
(00:22):
She is also a professionalsinger and she'll talk about
that.
And, more important, she's a FOT, and that means a friend of
Toby and that's probably themost important thing, she is
very familiar with the work thatI've done and I'm very familiar
(00:43):
with the work that she's doneand I'll just say that and I
have ultimate respect for her inthe legal profession and in the
entertainment industry.
So I will turn this over to herand we'll start our informative
(01:05):
discussion.
How are you, mariel?
How are you feeling?
Speaker 2 (01:09):
Hi Toby, Thank you very much for that introduction.
I'm feeling well.
How about you?
How are you doing?
Speaker 1 (01:16):
Good, I'm okay.
I'm a little tired.
I had the flight from hellyesterday coming up.
I sat on the tarmac for two anda half hours because we had
rainstorms in orlando miami ormiami miami so, and of course,
was loaded with disney peoplecoming from latin america.
Kids, when are we going?
(01:37):
To get there when are we goingto see mickey?
You know all around me, so youknow it was oh, wow that sounds
like a nightmare.
Yeah, but but it worked out okayand and that, and I'm, uh, like
I said, really honored to haveyou on the show, because it's
going to be informative Um thankyou very much for the
(01:58):
invitation Of course, of course.
Uh, mariel, what I haveeverybody do is do a
self-introduction, and it'susually with your background,
your professional career,something with the criminal
justice system, about that, thatyou like and dislike, and uh,
you know.
And also I'd like to top talkabout your entertainment.
(02:22):
Go ahead, I'm sure you have alot to say on that topic.
Speaker 2 (02:32):
I rather not.
So.
Good morning everybody, orshould I say good afternoon.
My name is Mariel Colomero.
I am a New York-based criminaldefense attorney.
I also am a professional singeras well, and one thing I
dislike one of the many things Iguess I dislike about the
(02:54):
criminal justice system is how Iguess it's not necessarily the
criminal justice system, butmore so the issue there is with
lay people not understanding thelaw and then serving in a jury
(03:19):
panel and how that could affecta client.
Certainly clients like mine,where they're accused of a crime
and because there's otherpeople sitting down who don't
understand the law, may getunfairly judged or treated
(03:42):
because of it, because the lackof knowledge, the lack of
understanding, because peoplereally don't understand our
justice system.
So I feel like one thing Idon't like is the fact that our
society does not understand whata presumption of innocence is.
Speaker 1 (04:01):
Well, why don't you give us a little of your
background so people can reallyknow who you are, where you came
from?
I mean, I know obviously, butRight, right.
Speaker 2 (04:11):
So, like I said, I am a New York-based criminal
defense attorney.
I've been practicing law forsix years now, but most of you
know me or the people that doknow me know me because of my
first big case, which happenedto be also my first case in my
career, which was El Chapo.
I represented Joaquin GuzmanLoera El Chapo in a federal case
(04:36):
against him at the EDNY,eastern District of New York,
back since 2018.
And I'm still his attorney andwe you know we we've been
together since 2018.
We did the trial together.
Appeals went, try to go all theway to Supreme Court.
(04:57):
Supreme Court did not want tolisten to the case.
But, yeah, most people know methe most because of that case
and also because the JeffreyEpstein case, whom I also
represented for about a month.
And I guess the third case thatput me in the spotlight was El
(05:18):
Chapo's wife's case, emmaCornell.
So those are the three casesthat I'm most famous for.
Speaker 1 (05:24):
Yes, and I think that's got our audience's
attention with that.
And I do realize, and I need toinform everybody, that you will
talk as much as you can aboutthe individuals in the cases,
but, as someone who is in thecriminal justice system for
almost 50 years now, we respectthe attorney-client privilege
(05:48):
and there's things that youcannot talk about because of the
relationship that you have withthe clients involved.
So, with that, how did you getstarted in the legal profession
when you were young and you'restill very young, trust me but
(06:09):
how did you?
What made you want to be alawyer?
Speaker 2 (06:12):
So I always wanted to be a singer and I tell people
that I am a singer who became alawyer, not the opposite way,
Although I started, you know,the legal career before the
singing career.
But so I've always wanted to bea singer because I like
performing.
I still do, it was my firstpassion.
But my family wanted a more, Iguess, a different kind of
(06:40):
career for me with, I guess,with more, with a financial
stability, and I decided to goto law school.
Right, I went to.
I did my undergrad in LoyolaUniversity in New Orleans in
music business, and then I said,Okay, let me go to law school,
because then I can doentertainment law, and you know
that is related to theentertainment industry, which is
(07:00):
what I want, to what I want todo, what a?
But still there's somefinancial stability as a lawyer.
So I went to law school, but thefirst year, right off the bat,
I knew I did not want to bedoing a nine to five writing
contract for other people.
I knew that was boring andthat's what an entertainment
lawyer does, and I just did notwant to do that for myself.
And so I went and participatedin the criminal justice clinic
(07:27):
at my law school in New York.
I did that clinic and that'swhere I realized that's right.
Then and there I realized thatthat's really what I wanted to
do.
I wanted to do criminal work.
I wanted to do criminal defensework.
So very early on, since thevery first year of being in law
school, I realized that that'swhat I what I wanted to do.
(07:48):
I guess part of it it's because, as a criminal defense attorney
, you have to perform right.
You have to sell a story, justlike the prosecutors are doing
right.
They have their version, theirside of their story, and we have
our side of the story and youhave an audience which is the
judge and a jury, and youactually, you know, have to sell
this story.
And I thought that that wasfascinating to me.
(08:12):
And that was the first thingthat really like caught my
attention about this work.
And also then, as I got, as Igot more involved with it and I
was able to go to my visit,visit my first jail and interact
with my first clients right asa as an intern, I realized that
I also liked something aboutrepresenting the underdog right
(08:35):
or the accused criminal defenseside of the law, and I stuck
with it.
I finished.
I did a lot of internships atvarious public defender offices,
such as Legal Aid Society, theQueens Defenders, many other you
(08:57):
know different public defenderoffices within the state of New
York, which is where I was.
I was going to law school andafter I graduated, I sat for the
bar.
I was waiting to result and soI decided to go on Craigslist
and I go on Craigslist to andmany other websites indeed
(09:18):
Craigslist, many other websitestrying to find a job, because
now you know, I was waiting forthe bar results.
I no longer had student loans,my parents were no longer
helping me, so I needed to finda job and I found on Craigslist
an ad that said that they werelooking for a Spanish speaker
paralegal for a criminal defenselaw firm and I was like perfect
(09:42):
.
That's me.
You know there are not manyjobs for that.
For criminal defense firmsthere's mostly.
There's more like jobopportunities for, like, family
law or civil law, but very fewfor criminal defense.
So I applied right then andthere, immediately.
That's the.
It was very general.
It did not have anydescriptions of what I was going
(10:04):
to be doing or anything.
It was just that Spanishspeaker paralegal for a criminal
defense law firm, part time.
That's it.
I applied.
I remember they.
I applied, I send my email.
They didn't call me right thenand there.
And so I kept on sending theemail for about a week every day
, to make sure that my email wasat the top of the list.
My email was at the top of thelist.
They finally saw my email.
They called me.
(10:25):
They told me to go to a meeting.
I went to a meeting and thenthey sat down with me and
explained.
So we're a criminal defense lawfirm.
Right now we have a client whois incarcerated in a federal
institution in New York.
He's awaiting trial.
The reason why we need aSpanish speaker paralegal is
because the client does notspeak English.
(10:46):
All he needs he obviously hehas a constitutional right to
review all the evidence.
But because he can't readEnglish, we need somebody that
can translate it for him andalso explain it for him, and
somebody that's willing to go tofederal jail for this, you know
, three times a week.
And I said, ok, sounds easy,perfect, when do I start?
(11:07):
When they, when I asked that,they say, well, you know the
client is, we want to make surethat you're aware that the
client is, is this, this person?
And obviously, right then andthere I was like I really I kind
of knew the name, but rightthen and there I like my brain
did not click, like who it was.
(11:28):
So I was like, yeah, sure, isthat supposed to mean anything?
And I Googled him and once Isaw, like who it was, I was like
, oh yes, definitely I want thisjob.
Because immediately I saw it asa very big professional
opportunity for me.
Because immediately I saw it asa very big professional
opportunity for me.
You know most all of my, all mycolleagues, they spend 20, 30
(11:50):
years practicing law to get acase like this right.
So me being able to, even as aparalegal, being involved in a
case like this, meant that thatwas going to be professionally
amazing for me and I was goingto gain a lot of experience.
So it was like a, like a nobrainer for me and I accepted
(12:13):
the job.
I remember I had a.
I had to pass a like abackground check and many
different you know securityprotocols, because he's a Sam's
inmate, which which meant youknow a whole different set of
rules apply to him that don'tapply to a regular general
population inmate.
So you know, we did all of thatand once I was approved I
started visiting him and afterthat I kind of like you know, we
(12:35):
kind of he got very used to mystyle.
He liked you know how I workedwith him.
A few months after I finallygot the results back from the
bar, I had passed it, and so hethen hired me to stay on the
case as his attorney, and so I,instead of being a paralegal
(12:57):
then I became one of hisattorneys.
So it was a legal team, but Iwas one of the attorneys on the
legal team, a legal team, but Iwas one of the attorneys on the
legal team.
Speaker 1 (13:08):
Marielle, you're very modest and you know you've told
us this mystery guy who yourepresented on your first case
as a paralegal and now as hisattorney.
Tell the audience who it is.
Speaker 2 (13:20):
El Chapo Guzman, joaquin El Chapo Guzman.
Speaker 1 (13:25):
What do you think the odds of that happening were?
I mean, you must have beenoverwhelmed.
Speaker 2 (13:31):
Yes, I see it still to this day.
I'll always see it as ablessing, professionally.
I mean, this is the case youwant to be If you're a criminal
defense attorney and this iswhat you do.
This is a case that youliterally worked your entire
life to get, to get right a caselike this, and it was my first
case.
So to me, I could not believeit.
I saw it as literally, as aprofessional blessing, like
(13:54):
there's just no other way todescribe it.
Maybe some people would say ablessing.
You know that because theydon't understand it.
When you're a criminal defenseattorney and this is what you do
do, this is.
This is the type of case thatyou prepare yourself for to get
in the future at some point inyour life yes and uh.
Speaker 1 (14:12):
Yeah, what was your?
What was your the etiquette foryour first meeting with him?
I mean, how, how was thatarranged?
You just showed up at the jailand you had all your clearances
yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2 (14:24):
So so I I already had all my clearances and the
attorney that hired me she wassupposed to go with me to, you
know, make the introduction.
However she I'll never.
I, I still have my doubts aboutthis story, but on the day of
as I was already there, it waslike 20, we were supposed to
meet at five.
So she calls me at like 4 40.
She says are you there?
(14:45):
Because I'm not going to beable to make it, because I just
I just left my wallet in thesubway and all my ids, including
my bar card, where am I in mywallet?
So I cannot go in.
So you have two options you caneither wait two weeks while I
get all my ids and can get backto the you know go back inside
to the facility, or you can justgo in by yourself because you
(15:07):
back to the you know go backinside to the facility.
Or you can just go in byyourself because you have the
clearances.
You can't go by yourself.
I was like, listen, I'm notgoing to wait another month,
I've already waited.
I need to start working, andalso I wanted to meet this guy.
So I was like I'm going to go,I'm going to go in, and so I
(15:27):
went and it was my first timegoing to a federal institution
so like, so secured right bymyself.
So obviously, yeah, where wasthis mcc?
At the?
At the mcc new york, which isnow closed.
Yes, yes, so you know, and Iwent all the way to the shoe to
the 10th floor, 10 south, whichis like there's only four cells
were because that mcc closeddown but there were only four
cells on that floor and he was.
(15:48):
He was because and they wereall four cells for four
different sam's inmates, someaning inmates that had sam's
uh on them, right, the specialadministrative measure, and he
was one of them.
So there were only four inmatesthere.
He was one of them and so Iwould go to the 10th floor and I
would meet with him and uh,that was the first time.
(16:08):
So, obviously, and it was likefrom zero to a hundred, right on
my first, I guess, on my firstvisit to that institution.
So, uh, it was crazy, it waswild.
I felt anxious in the beginningbecause I was locked in a room
for like it must have been like30 minutes, but to me it felt
like two hours, while they wouldcome and get him.
Um, literally, I was like, oh,my god, I'm never getting out of
(16:32):
here.
You know it was, it was, it wasanxiety, like full-on blast.
But after that I I got used toit, I guess, and I started going
three days a week to see himfor three hours, but then it
became seven days a week.
So I was there every single day, including Saturdays and
Sundays, prepping for trial andobviously interacting with the
(16:53):
client.
So he obviously got to trust meand then when I became an
attorney, he hired me.
Speaker 1 (17:00):
What was his reaction ?
What was his reaction?
I mean most defendants, like athis level, which are high
profile, they're going to,they're going to expect somebody
(17:21):
coming in my age, you know withwhitish gray hair, coming in to
see him, and you showed up andit's like what was his reaction
I could imagine, I guess?
Speaker 2 (17:25):
well, I guess because they were looking for paralegal
.
Paralegals are young, so Ithink that he already knew that
it was going to be a youngperson, maybe fresh out of law
school or fresh out of aparalegal course, or you know
somebody.
There's not and at least in myexperience there's not many
older paralegals.
I'd say they're fairly young,you know, in their mid-20s to
(17:50):
early 40s at least my experienceright, the ones that I've met.
So I think that he knew that itwas going to be somebody young.
Maybe, you know, a law studentor something like that, I don't.
I mean, we just started talking, started talking like he really
didn't have a reaction.
He just wanted to get to knowwho I was, obviously who it was,
who I was, who he was going tobe working with and same with me
(18:12):
.
Um, I was obviously curiousabout many things, um and so,
but obviously some of them Ikept to myself until later on.
Uh, some others, you know, Ifelt like I could ask and it was
it.
Just it was.
It was very much a relationshiplike a, like a professional
relationship, but like you alsohave to establish some rapport,
it's impossible not to whenyou're spending hours a day,
(18:36):
seven days a week, with a person, obviously.
So you talk about, abouteverything, not just work.
Um, you know life, trips,anything, politics, everything.
I wanted to also understand hisbrain a little bit.
Um, music, and I think he didtoo.
He did so too, uh, so that'sthat's how it was, at least for
(18:59):
me I.
I learned a lot also along theway, um, because in a case like
this, you learn a lot, andthere's things that you'll never
learn in law school that a highprofile case like this will
teach you.
First of all, in law school,they don't teach you how to deal
with the press.
They don't teach you how todeal with somebody that already
has a reputation, a negativereputation, and how do you
represent somebody that'salready stained Right?
(19:21):
That's already stained right.
Nobody, everybody knew.
I mean, there was not a singleperson in the jury and the
people that we actually, youknow, like interviewed for
potential jurors, that didn'tknow who he was or that had seen
the Netflix show.
So it's hard to defend somebodylike that in a case like that,
because he's already there'salready a public opinion forum
(19:43):
and he's already condemned bythe press, I guess.
So that's something that youlive, you learn.
Also, the public eye is alwayson you, so you have to behave
different.
There's certain things that youcan't do.
You have to be very carefulwhat you talk to, who do you
talk to?
It's many things that you knowthat really, law school doesn't
(20:06):
prepare you for um and alsoother.
You know legal aspects that um,uh, they don't prepare you for.
That you know.
Really, I had to learn in likea matter of months uh, I didn't
have 30 years to learn them, ohyeah what was the reaction of
the us attorney's office, theausas and the agents, when you
(20:29):
know you became his lawyer?
Speaker 1 (20:30):
what was, what was that they?
Speaker 2 (20:32):
gave me, they gave me a, they gave me a lot of shit.
I'm just gonna call it how itis.
I don't care if they're seeingthis I hope that they're
watching this podcast becausethey were hard on me.
I think that they felt, I think, right, this is what this is
all speculation.
I was a young attorney, straightout of law school, so I think
that that was unsettling.
(20:53):
I think that they were nervousabout that, because I think that
they maybe thought that I coulddo things because I could be
persuaded, maybe, or that youknow I could, that I just didn't
have the maturity because Icould be persuaded, maybe, or
that you know I could, um, thatI just didn't have the maturity
or the experience to be in acase like this.
So I don't think that theyliked that and they tried it.
(21:13):
They tried to remove me fromthe case.
They oh my God, they did manythings to try to remove from the
case.
They did it, which I'm notgoing to get into, but they,
they played a bit dirty, um, youknow dirty, you know, and I
also had to learn that.
I also had to learn very earlyon that the US government is not
your friend, Not always.
Speaker 1 (21:34):
No, not always, but I know as an agent.
If I was in that situation, Iwould be talking to the AOSA
saying let's get a plea bargainin, let's get this thing in, and
maybe we'll pull the wool oversomebody's eyes.
No, I'm being serious on that.
That is a ploy that thegovernment will use in that kind
(21:57):
of situation.
So did you ask any time for achange of venue or anything like
that?
Was it considered it was goingto be tried there?
Speaker 2 (22:08):
Listen, we did not just because where could we put
this trial?
That people don't know who heis?
Where could we have taken thistrial?
Speaker 1 (22:16):
Maybe North Dakota or something like that.
Yeah, the Middle East, no yeah.
Speaker 2 (22:22):
Everybody knows.
Everybody knows who he is.
Speaker 1 (22:27):
So, there's.
Speaker 2 (22:28):
It doesn't matter which state, it doesn't matter
Like he, obviously it.
It's kind of like Trump, whodoesn't know who Trump was Like,
tell me, you know.
So when you have somebody likethat, really there is no venue
that's going to like be morefavorable to you, or you know,
or if anything, you do want ademocratic state.
(22:50):
You don't want a Republicanstate, right In a case like that
involves a Latino man, so youwant maybe a place where you can
get more Latinos on the jurypanel, but that really doesn't
mean anything when it comes downto it.
It really doesn't.
You know, when it comes down toit, it really doesn't.
Um, you know, it's allspeculation, boy dear, and jury
selection it's really all aboutspeculation.
(23:11):
You know, there are certainthings that you can, you know,
try to get, but, um, I rememberthat we had, we had our jury
panel and we had it all.
We thought that we we wereready and the day the trial
started, this juror decides thathe wants to tell a marshal that
(23:33):
he wants to get an autographfrom chapel.
He wants a chapel's autograph.
So obviously he was already inand we had to get the jury back
in, and obviously he wasdismissed and we had to get
another juror because you knowthe government claimed that.
Yeah, you know he was a fan.
He was not going to be.
You know he was going to bebiased or whatever, but yeah
(23:58):
well, that's so, that's amazing.
Speaker 1 (24:00):
Um, so, that was that's tough.
Speaker 2 (24:02):
He should have stayed quiet.
He should have stayed silent.
You know he could have.
He should have asked for theautograph once the trial was
over.
Speaker 1 (24:08):
Oh, yeah, no that wasn't obviously at the Voidere
hearing a question like that.
Speaker 2 (24:13):
Seriously.
Speaker 1 (24:15):
Do something with celebrity status or a question
with that, so that's interesting.
So you also represent the wifeand can you talk about that a
little bit?
Speaker 2 (24:32):
Yes, I represent the wife.
She also served time for aconspiracy as well, a different
conspiracy than him, but sheserved three years, two and a
half, three years, somethingaround those lines, um, but now
she's out, she's on probationand I'm still representing her.
(24:53):
So I, we, we, you know we, mycolleague jeffrey lickman and I,
we worked on that case togetherand now she's out I'm still
working with her, but on otheruh matters as well.
Just because you know thecriminal case is over, other
matters as well, just becauseyou know the criminal case is
over pretty much, I'm stillworking with him as well.
I still go visit him.
(25:13):
Right now we're working ontrying to get his conditions of
confinement relaxed a little bit.
Essentially, we're trying toget the SAMs either removed or
modified, which it's going to bea battle.
It's not going to be very easy.
I'm sure bop and doj are notgoing to make it easy for us,
but you know we got to try okay,and uh, I'm assuming that he's
(25:37):
still in the location wherethere's a lot of skiing right in
in, uh he, he is, he is in inflorence and ad max, the super
max, so the Alcatraz yeah,that's how they call it.
so it's, I guess it's the mostsecure prison.
It's a federal institution, atleast in the US, and that's
(26:03):
where he's at.
He's in unit H, which is wherethey mostly have all the SAMs
and Mates as well, and it's ahe's at.
He's in Unit H, which is wherethey mostly have all the SAMs
inmates as well, and it's a very, you know, restricted unit and
he is alone in his cell 24 hoursa day, seven days a week.
He's not a general populationinmate, so he cannot like
interact with other inmates.
He eats inside of himself, heshowers inside, he does
(26:26):
everything in his cell.
Speaker 1 (26:27):
So the only time that he really speaks to someone is
when I go visit him okay,because we've we have had
several inmates that were inthat institution and they
describe it exactly like you doon the show.
Speaker 2 (26:42):
We I don't know they're with.
Inside of that institution,though, there's unit h, which is
the worst unit, and thenthere's other different units
inside of supermax, but he's inthe worst one yeah, yeah right.
Speaker 1 (26:57):
I know some of the individuals that are situated in
that unit there.
Um, yeah, there's not a,there's a few, but yeah there's
a a few going back that weremoved out of Marion into that
that I dealt with.
So what is his wife is nowreleased here.
Speaker 2 (27:19):
She's released.
Yes, she's obviously in herprobation period, but she is in
the United States.
Speaker 1 (27:25):
Yes, that was my next question with that.
Speaker 2 (27:29):
Um, yes, she's a U S citizen too, so Right, yeah,
yeah, I know she is.
She wasn't deported becauseshe's a U S citizen.
Speaker 1 (27:37):
Right, right.
Uh, you know I have a littleexperience with that.
You know from case that Iworked where somebody was in
double life sentence and I tookthem.
I took them home to the airportand they went back.
Speaker 2 (27:51):
You're brave, huh, you're brave, you're brave.
Speaker 1 (27:55):
I was a little nervous because she was released
to my custody, which I think isvery, very unique to the whole
system.
Speaker 2 (28:02):
Yeah, oh, yeah, oh yeah, so it's.
Speaker 1 (28:05):
it's like 30 years later, amazing things do happen
in life with that.
Speaker 2 (28:13):
Do you think that'll ever happen at Guzman?
Speaker 1 (28:18):
I don't think so.
I mean, you know the agentsbetter than me and the judge.
Speaker 2 (28:23):
I don't think there's going to be a Toby on that team
.
I don't think there's going tobe a Toby on that team.
I don't know?
Speaker 1 (28:29):
Yeah, you would know.
You would know they rolled outthe red carpet for you when you
came.
So that's what.
I have to say and we had thesupport of the prosecutor, which
(28:55):
was very, very important.
Yeah, no, I don't think we havethat either.
No, no, but you't think we havethat either.
Tell me how you got involvedwith Jeffrey Epstein.
Speaker 2 (29:06):
So Jeffrey Epstein, he was incarcerated there around
the same time when Guzman'strial was over.
He was awaiting sentence, but Iwas still visiting him because
(29:33):
we were working on an appeal andother motions that you know
that we were filing because ajuror went on to Vice News, the
newspaper, and said that theyhad violated, you know, the
judges rules while on trial,that they were like they did not
stay away from the press.
So we were, you know, in thetrying to fight that and trying
to see if we could get a new, anew trial before sentencing.
Or you know, yeah, that, andtrying to see if we could get a
new trial before sentencing.
Or you know, yeah, exactly, anew trial.
Essentially we tried.
So he was awaiting sentence tobe sentenced.
(30:02):
So Epstein arrives and Epsteinwas represented, he had a legal
team, but one of the attorneyswas also one of the attorneys
that was representing Guzman onthe appellate level, mark
Pernish, also one of theattorneys that was representing
Guzman on the appellate level,mark Pernish.
And so I guess Epstein askedMark he also needed an attorney
(30:22):
that would visit him regularly,meaning every day, to go over
all that evidence, and a youngerattorney, obviously, that would
do this, because once you getto a certain point in your
career, I don't know why mycolleagues, they just don't want
to go to the jail, they don'twant to visit clients, they
don't Right.
So they leave that work toyounger attorneys like me to do
(30:45):
the dirty work of going to jail,I guess, and meeting with the
client.
So he asked me if I would beyou know.
So he said you know, do youknow of somebody?
He actually told him, I guess,do you know of somebody that
could you know, a young attorneythat could you know do this?
I remember his words were likewell, to me at least, it's like
the only crazy person that Iknow that can stand going to
(31:05):
that prison, to that jail everyday is this attorney.
And so he hired me the next dayI went.
So literally Chapo gotsentenced on a Thursday and
Friday I was already hired to gothen to start visiting Epstein.
I remember the guards were likeyour client was just sentenced
and moved Because he wassentenced and usually normal
(31:26):
inmates, they're sentenced andthen they go back to that same
jail and they'll move themwithin a month, you know two
months.
No, no, no, no, no.
He was sentenced and that sameday he was moved to colorado.
Literally he did not get back.
He did not go back to ncc, hewent straight to colorado.
On that same thursday and, uh,the next day I started visiting
(31:48):
Epstein and it was obviously wewere a legal team but the
younger attorneys were therereviewing evidence with him and
all of that, and I guess I wentin for the job interview and I
got it.
Speaker 1 (32:02):
Wow, and what was that?
What was that like?
I mean, you must have beenmaking a name for yourself, you
know because and you did,obviously.
But you know you'rerepresenting two of the highest
profile cases in the UnitedStates and they're wondering
(32:22):
like, how did this happen andhow did you get this?
And what was Jeffrey Epstein'sreaction to you getting hired?
Speaker 2 (32:31):
I mean, he's the one that hired me.
So, yeah, because I went in,mark sent me, right, the
attorney, the other attorneysent me, but he ultimately hires
his attorneys.
So he interviewed me and hiredme then and there he said, okay,
yes, yeah, his attorneys.
So he interviewed me and hiredme then and there he said, okay,
(32:51):
yes, yeah.
So, um, that's that's how I gotin on that case.
I guess all my clients havehired me because, yeah, guzman
may not have hired me as aparalegal, but he's, he hired me
as an attorney.
So that's how it's been withall my clients they've, they've
hired me.
Uh, I guess they see a positiveasset, a value, uh, and what I
(33:12):
bring to the table, even thoughI'm not the most experienced one
, and they, they know that,obviously, they understand that,
but I have a, I guess, apurpose and I do it right.
Speaker 1 (33:22):
Uh you know, we all have.
We all have a role in the kidsthey know you're gonna fight for
them, and that's a good thing.
That's how I get hired as a PI.
You know because I have to whenI deal, and you know what I
deal with.
I deal with all cooperators andvictims.
That's my specialty as far asthat.
Speaker 2 (33:47):
I get very passionate about my cases and my clients
and I guess that they like that.
With this line of work that Ido, it's easy to lose empathy as
a criminal defense attorneyafter a while.
I've seen it in my colleaguesthey lose empathy.
But I haven't lost that and Ithink that's one of the reasons
why even though.
(34:15):
I'm not the most experiencedone.
They keep on hiring me becausethey want somebody like that
also in their corner.
Okay, I keep on getting hiredand obviously I'm still learning
along the way and I have a lotto learn.
But you know I, you know that'swhat I'm, that's what I'm doing
and I fight with them.
I fight for them, with theminside of jail, getting better.
(34:37):
You know conditions, everything.
You know stuff that mostattorneys really overlook
because they focus on the legalstuff, like prison conditions
are very important to thembecause they're living it daily
and, um, they like that, I, I dothat like they like that.
I don't.
I don't get tired of emailingbop, the wardens, the counselors
10 times a day until I get youknow the little thing that
(35:02):
they're asking for.
Or you know, sometimes they're,sometimes they're unreasonable
requests.
Some but most times aren't,most times are just basic human
needs, like an extra sheet, ablanket or you know a clean
uniform or literally.
There are things like sometimesthey're just basic human things
that you know.
The jails jails in the us aretough.
(35:23):
You know we say that we havelike one of the best systems.
No, we don't Like they're tough.
They're tough on inmates.
They're not designed to reenteryou into society.
They're not.
They should be, but they're not.
Speaker 1 (35:42):
Yeah, sometimes they school people on what they're
doing.
Speaker 2 (35:47):
They're straight up punitive.
Yeah, and that's how it is.
Speaker 1 (35:50):
Yeah, and sometimes in my experience, which may
differ with you is they schoolthemselves on other things on
the inside, so when they get outthey can go back and be
recidivists.
Okay, so you know it's boththey could be.
Yeah, so they also have thatalso have.
Speaker 2 (36:08):
They could be too, but they could be too, but
because there's there's there'sno options to you know if there
were other options for them.
To listen when sometimes theydo it even out of necessity,
like you get back and the wholeworld is turning your back.
You can't find a job, you can't, you can't find a place to to
live because they won't rent you, they literally they treat you
(36:30):
differently.
So sometimes and I'm notjustifying them by any means,
but sometimes they just don'thave other options If they don't
have a support system like afamily that will support them on
the outside.
Nine out of 10 times, yes,they're going to go back because
they don't have another optionand they don't know how and they
were not taught how to do itdifferently, because there is
(36:51):
not a system in place really forthem Halfway house to this.
That's not effective.
Speaker 1 (37:00):
So you're obviously opposed to minimum mandatory
sentencing right to minimummandatory sentencing right.
Speaker 2 (37:07):
I not necessarily.
What I'm opposed to is the waythe prison system works, right,
okay.
Speaker 1 (37:21):
however, I am definitely opposed to life
sentences okay, yeah, and Idon't, I, I'm not, I'm sorry no,
no, and I mean, is that alllife sentences or let me?
Let me just state my opinion,uh, which I do quite frequently.
(37:44):
As far as killing cops, I thinkyou well, I believe in capital
punishment for that, and I knowstates it varies with life
sentences and capital punishment, your views on that.
You're a defense attorney and Iunderstand that, and your
(38:05):
background is a very religiousbackground too, like mine was
and it still is, except I miss alot of masses, but that's my
own fault.
What do you think about thatCop killers and people like that
that are incarcerated for,let's say, a mass murder, a
(38:25):
child rapist?
Speaker 2 (38:29):
So you want my professional opinion or my
personal opinion and I get.
Those get mixed.
Speaker 1 (38:35):
I like both.
Speaker 2 (38:36):
When we talk about when.
Well, personally, like you saidexactly, I'm a very religious
person and I don't think that Iam capable to judge other
person's actions or to determinewhat is a good punishment for
your sins, for what you've done.
So I am opposed to lifesentences or capital punishment
(38:56):
for that reason, because who amI to determine what you should
get?
What you should get?
Uh, obviously, now,professionally speaking, I
understand that because thereare no other alternatives in
place.
Sometimes that is the onlyoption.
I understand that.
That doesn't mean that I, likeI said, personally agree with it
, but I, I understand it.
(39:17):
Obviously I can't change it,that this, the system that I,
that I work in, is a system thatwe live in and that's that um.
But I feel like um sometimesbecause, for example, take, take
a take.
Take a person that, like, has amental, a mental issue, and he
just kills and kills and killsand he can't control himself.
(39:39):
Well, you're, you're, you'repunishing that person, whether
it be killing her or him, orgiving it a life sentence,
because he has a mental issuethat he can't control, right,
but at the same time, that thatmental issue is hurting others.
So the only alternative islet's lock him up for the rest
(40:00):
of his life or let's end hislife.
So, but because there's noother alternative.
So I get it, but I just don't.
Morally I, who am I todetermine what you should get
for the sin or the crime thatyou committed?
Speaker 1 (40:14):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (40:15):
And that's just the way I see it.
Speaker 1 (40:16):
No, and that's that's a good legal point, no more a
morality point.
Morality point I've experiencedprisoners that I've had that
have introduced themselves to meby saying good morning, Mr
Roach.
Nothing personal, but I'm doingmultiple life sentences.
If I get a chance to kill you Iwill try to escape immediately
and I know that's mostly a formof intimidation.
(40:39):
The reality is it's not goingto happen, they're not going to
escape from me.
But again, there are some thatsome of the gangs that are in
prison that and these arevicious criminals.
This isn't white collar crimeor anything like that that I've
(41:00):
dealt with in that so hopefullyyou don't have to deal with
those.
Um right, okay so I haven't.
Speaker 2 (41:08):
I haven't.
But you know, obviously, if youask me somebody, uh take for
example, conspiracy, drugconspiracies, most of them,
literally, because of theminimum mandatories they get
life or 30 plus.
I don't think that for drugconspiracies you should get a
(41:30):
life sentence.
But then again, obviously youknow, I just follow the system,
I don't make the rules.
And hey, listen, you have yourown experience with Evelyn.
And hey, listen, you have yourown experience with Evelyn.
I want to hear about you andwhat you thought that she should
have gotten a life sentence youthought when you put her in
(41:52):
jail, right, were you happy thatshe was going to get a life
sentence?
Speaker 1 (42:00):
Did you think that she deserved it?
I thought I knew there was aminimum mandatory sentencing
which the judge, who was a very,very good judge that released
her and incarcerated her, had tofollow.
She wouldn't talk to us.
She was an individual who wasbeaten by her husband and we all
knew that.
She had improper legalrepresentation, who was
(42:21):
representing the Cali cartel, tobe quite frank about it, and we
knew that the self-interest.
He's since passed away and Ifeel with him, there was a
special place in hell for himbecause he didn't represent his
client truthfully, truthfully.
(42:47):
And as far as Evelyn, yeah, shewas abused.
We gave her every opportunityto speak with us and probably
would have received five to 10years under what was laid out in
front of her for that.
So again, she's much moreproductive back in Columbia, in
my personal and professionalopinion, than sitting in
(43:08):
Tallahassee for the next 40years.
Speaker 2 (43:12):
But she had minimum mandatory.
So take a case like that.
Maybe she wasn't deserving of aminimum mandatory, but because
that is how the law is, that'swhat she got.
So I wish that it was case bycase and not, you know, you just
have to follow the guidelinesand that's it.
So that is my thing with thewith the minimum mandatories,
but I guess that is a topic foranother day.
Speaker 1 (43:33):
No, it's a huge topic .
Speaker 2 (43:35):
They're not just there.
They sometimes don't justify,they're not just it's a, it's a,
you know, a blank slate, likeit's like same for everybody and
that's it.
But I think that it should beon a case by case.
Um, when you're going tosentence, you're going to
sentence someone, especially ifyou're going to cut that person
completely.
You know, uh, you know hisliberty and you're going to put
(43:57):
that person essentially in hellfor the next.
You know, whatever x amount ofyears, like it has to be
proportionate I the punishmentto what you did and their
circumstances.
Right, that lets you to do that.
But the system doesn't worklike that and that's why I don't
like the minimum mandatories.
Speaker 1 (44:14):
Yeah, and like I remember, when the crackademic
occurred, they had peoplegetting life sentences for as
addicts, you knows, with theintent to sell and that's what
it fell under with that, becausethere was a big panic when it
came in.
And I wonder about the newsituation with fentanyl, because
(44:36):
now that's a real problembecause it's coming in from
China and places like that intoMexico.
And I had the head of theMexico City office for DEA, who
retired on the show and he'sjust with fentanyl.
He says that's going to destroythings.
(44:57):
It's wiping out 125,000 people.
That's a small city in theStates and you know, and I you
know I have my own politicalbeliefs which I don't put on
this show and I don't want it onthere.
But as far as border control,that needs to be enhanced, you
(45:26):
know something that yourgeneration will deal with the
effects in 20 years, when I'msitting in the nursing home
trying to remember my nameKidding, but you get my point.
Speaker 2 (45:34):
Don't say that.
I'm sure your daughter won'tallow that to happen to you.
Speaker 1 (45:39):
No, no.
Even my ex-wife won't allowthat to happen to me, hopefully.
So again, you're such a lawyer,you're turning it on me.
That's why you're a good lawyer, marielle because you know how
to turn the tables.
Let's talk about your singingcareer.
I'm amazed with that becausethat was your, your childhood
(46:04):
dream and you've accomplishedthat too, and that must make
your family very.
I know it makes your familyvery proud to have that happen
too.
Can you talk about that aspecta little bit?
With the videos and she hasgreat videos online that I've
seen, uh online that I've seenand uh, they're, they're,
(46:29):
they're uh thought-provoking anduh morally very good.
I like the one with themilitary ending in it.
I don't want to spoil itbecause I want people to watch
it, but uh, can you talk aboutthat a little?
Speaker 2 (46:37):
bit okay, yeah, of course.
So, like I said I, I knew Iwanted to be a singer since a
very early age.
My dad is a, uh, musicaldirector and and performer and
drummer in in puerto rico and soI always, always around music,
I was always around that, thatthat scene, the entertainment
(46:57):
world.
I would go to his rehearsals, Iwould go to his shows and
everything.
And from a very early age Iknew I wanted to be a singer, I
knew I wanted to be a performer.
Um, my parents, uh, wanted amore traditional career for me,
especially my dad, because hewas inside of the entertainment
industry and he knew how hard itwas and that there's really not
(47:18):
a lot of room for people.
It's very competitive and youknow it's just it's it's, it's a
tough world, the entertainmentindustry.
So he tried to, he tried to, Iguess not, you know he tried to.
He tried his best to like,steer me away from it.
But when something is yourpassion, it just is.
(47:38):
So I was a good girl.
I went to, you know, law school.
I did.
I got a, I guess, a moretraditional career, how they
want it.
But I turned 30, to what?
Last year?
No, the year before, and I wentthrough a bariatric surgery.
(48:00):
I was, I was very I, I wasoverweight, I was almost 200.
I was actually 200 pounds, andso I went to, I did a, I got a
bariatric surgery and I lost alot of weight.
And when I lost a lot of weight, I guess I found myself again,
and I found I regained myconfidence, and with that, you
(48:22):
know, I also regained the desireand the passion for the music
and like it.
Just, it was something that Iturned 30.
I look, I look like this.
Now I want to do this because Idon't want to.
I I don't want to not dosomething in my life because,
you know, out of fear, I, like Iwanted to do it.
(48:43):
It was something that, if Ididn't do, I was going to regret
.
I feared that I was going toregret it.
So I spoke to my family and Ispoke to some of my colleagues
and I told them you know, thisis something that I've always
wanted to do and I feared thatif I don't do it, I'm going to
regret it 30, 40 years now.
I am very scared that if I dothis, though, that I'm going to
lose credibility, and I'm goingto lose my you know my
(49:09):
credibility as an attorney andthat people are maybe not going
to see me as a professionalattorney anymore and they're
just going to see me as aperformer, and that it may
affect my practice.
But I'm more scared that if Idon't do this, I'm going to
regret it and I don't want tolive with that regret,
especially because it's mypassion, it's what I've always
wanted to do.
I don't want to live with thatregret, especially because it's
my passion, it's what I'vealways wanted to do and I'm good
at it too.
So I spoke to my family andthey understood.
I spoke to my colleagues andthey thought that I should do it
(49:30):
and I decided to do it.
I decided to do itprofessionally because I always
sang, I always took lessons, butit was more like as a hobby,
not professionally, like I'mdoing it now, and I went for it
and I am very involved in theoriginal Mexican.
Even though I'm Puerto Rican, Ising.
(49:51):
All I do is sing.
All I sing is original Mexicanmusic and I am loving every,
every single step of it.
I'm loving every singleexperience.
I've already have six singlesout uh, with all my, my lyrics.
Obviously they're very I, Iwrite.
I write my music with, with myproducers.
(50:12):
So I'm very involved in thecreative process and in the
writing and the compositionprocess.
Um, because I write mostlyabout my experiences, or
people's experiences, like youknow, personal experiences,
because I want people to feelidentified with my music and
with what you know, I've lived,and I also, I think, that shows,
(50:33):
or I project that on my videos,because all my videos they have
storylines, like you said, um,that many people can relate to.
So, yeah, so I'm very happywith the direction that aspect
of my life is taking.
I am working right now on an EP, which is an electronic
(50:57):
production, which is a smallalbum.
It's going to have five to sixsongs.
Right now I'm working on thefourth one and I'm very, very
excited, excited.
It should come out in august.
So this summer I have now,between these, like four to six
weeks.
I have a lot of work likefilming music videos, going to a
recording uh studio, uh, anddoing a lot of stuff and then,
(51:20):
um, but I'm very excited, I'mvery excited to see uh for the
people right, really to see youknow the, the work that I'm
doing and uh connect with my,with my music.
I'm still going to be anattorney.
That's something I'm not gonna,you know.
I'm not gonna stop being anattorney.
I'm still gonna do that.
I still have cases.
I just picked up a new case inthe in the picked up a new case
(51:48):
in the Washington DC district, afederal case, involving also
conspiracy to distribute, youknow, narcotics and whatnot.
That's mostly what they call mefor.
So I'm still doing both.
I'm still doing both careers.
I I think I found the uh, theway to match them both and and
just be, you know, present atboth no, that's great.
Speaker 1 (52:12):
Um, I'm I'm sure this will end up being a story for
hollywood down the line.
Speaker 2 (52:20):
I know it will be might have some insider
information, but uh, it don'thope it's, it's gonna happen.
Speaker 1 (52:28):
We know that.
It's just.
Just.
Like you know, I I don't likesaying everything's blessed in
life, you've worked foreverything you have.
I mean, this is your singingvoice is great, even though I
don't understand the spanish and, like I said, it's uh you know
the translation you can't trainme, I can't.
(52:49):
I I play the bandajo, Iunderstand, but as far as me
speaking it, forget about it, itain't gonna happen.
So with that, oh wow, yeah, butI've.
But some people, you know, havetried to teach me it, but I'm a
failure with that.
Speaker 2 (53:08):
At least you understand it.
That's the most important thing.
So you know they're talkingabout it too, or not?
Speaker 1 (53:13):
I pretend that I don't, though I like that, you
know, because I like hearing.
As soon as I hear gringo myears perk up, you know, and I
say, here comes somethingderogatory.
And I heard that from Evelyntoo, way back in the day and I
remind her of that constantly.
Speaker 2 (53:30):
Oh really.
Speaker 1 (53:31):
Constantly yes, yes, that's funny.
So what are your future plans?
I mean, you know, where do yousee yourself in 20 years from
now?
Speaker 2 (53:47):
to yourself in 20 years from now.
So I see myself as still beingan attorney, but also, you know,
a singer.
I still on the legal aspect.
I see myself expanding mypractice.
Right now I'm only in, so mypractice is in New York City,
but I want to also take otherstate bars and expand my
practice, maybe also put a firmin Florida, maybe one in Puerto
(54:11):
Rico as well, where we do stateand federal cases, and also
hiring more attorneys to helpand everything and the on the
other aspect, right on the onthe on the entertainment, uh, uh
career or the singing career, Isee myself hopefully, you know,
(54:33):
being a very successful bigartist.
You know, uh, very renamed andum, just being able to to make
money out of the two things thatI like the most in life, and I
think that once you do that, itdoesn't feel like work.
Speaker 1 (54:53):
Yeah Well, who knows, maybe you'll get an Academy
award winning song in nearfuture, you?
Speaker 2 (54:59):
know, I definitely, definitely, definitely.
But that's.
I hope that within the next atleast years at least I get a
grammy yeah, yeah, well that'slatin grammy and a grammy both
there you go double,double-edged sword.
Speaker 1 (55:13):
That's uh, that's what I always, always say that's
, that's the goal.
That's, that's the goal yeah,well, I want say I don't see
myself having kids, don't wantkids.
Don't want kids.
No, okay, I have a beautiful.
Speaker 2 (55:30):
I have a beautiful.
No, I have a beautiful nephew,but I don't don't want kids.
Speaker 1 (55:35):
Okay, yeah, that's.
That's a big challenge initself, but you know, with your
nephew that's quite wonderful.
Speaker 2 (55:47):
More than enough.
Yeah, I'm going to have asecond one now, so oh, I didn't
know that.
Speaker 1 (55:51):
That's good, that's congratulations.
Speaker 2 (55:53):
Yeah, they're pregnant.
She's five weeks pregnant.
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (55:58):
And her family is very patriotic.
If I can mention your brother,he's in the military, serving
our country.
Speaker 2 (56:06):
Yes, yes, he actually is in the—well.
He was in the Navy but he wasable to—one of the very few
people that can do that but hewas able to switch branches and
now he's in the Marines.
And right now he's in Quanticoin a training, a five-week
training where he can'tcommunicate with nobody.
He's on one of those trainingcamps, or whatever they call it
(56:33):
Recon camp.
Speaker 1 (56:33):
He's now on.
Speaker 2 (56:36):
Right, right, right, so now he's a Marine Corps.
Speaker 1 (56:38):
Okay.
Speaker 2 (56:39):
Yeah, I was looking on the Facebook page so they
have a Facebook page and I saw apicture of him and they had
just shaved his entire head.
Speaker 1 (56:49):
Yeah, He'll get over it.
Speaker 2 (56:52):
I sent him letters already.
I'm waiting for him to respond.
I know they have barely time todo anything, but he'll respond
obviously.
Speaker 1 (57:02):
Yeah, anything, but yeah, he'll respond, obviously.
Yeah, well, just don't send himliquor in the mail, because the
the, uh, the other people razzhim and they'll drink it,
especially if you get some goodpuerto rican rum to send to him,
you know yeah he, he, you, I'llbe able to.
Speaker 2 (57:19):
So he graduates, uh, in august.
Now, uh, I don't know exactlywhat he's doing.
This is five weeks.
Speaker 1 (57:24):
He's not going to tell you.
That's why he's in that job?
Speaker 2 (57:28):
I don't know you know .
Speaker 1 (57:29):
Yeah, you can't tell me Whatever they're doing.
Speaker 2 (57:33):
I'll be able to talk to him in August 3rd, yeah, so
yeah, I'm very excited, but he'slike a tough, you know, he's
literally the opposite of me,obviously.
Speaker 1 (57:48):
Yeah, well, yeah, he's very different.
Speaker 2 (57:50):
He's very like you know.
He's very military, he's verypro-government, he's very, yeah,
very different.
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (57:59):
Can I mention he's an MMA fan.
Speaker 2 (58:02):
Yeah, of course, and he is a former fighter as well,
yeah, that's pretty amazing thathe was in that.
I just left that world a couplemonths ago as far as sitting on
the sidelines with that, butthat's why I'm able to, but I
don't know which one's worseseeing your baby brother in the
(58:24):
Marines doing whatever he'sdoing, which I don't know, or
seeing him in the cage fighting.
It's like really, kid, You'regoing to kill me and my mom.
Speaker 1 (58:33):
Well, that's what he wants to do.
You know he wants to get at hissister.
You know, that's how it is.
Of course right, it's how it isOf course right, same way you
know, and that.
But no, I appreciate you verymuch coming on here.
No, thank you for the inviteTurning the tables on me.
(58:53):
Only a lawyer can do that.
We just had Evelyn's.
It's on YouTube now the podcastwith him.
He's Paul Pelletier.
He the podcast with him.
He's Paul Pelletier.
He was the prosecutor, okay andgood guy Complete opposite of
me as far as politics andpersonality, and that even
(59:18):
though we're both from theCommonwealth of Massachusetts.
I was on a different team, butyeah, he was a great prosecutor
and an honest person, just likeyou are.
Speaker 2 (59:29):
Just take it on.
Challenges, take it onchallenges.
Speaker 1 (59:33):
So anyway, it's been a pleasure.
Thank you, Mariel.
I'll talk with you soon.
Speaker 2 (59:37):
Thank you so much, bye Thank you, Toby Bye.
Thanks.
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