Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
Today we have another
edition of Justice Then Justice
Now.
Our guest today is a longtimefriend of mine, robert Startman.
I've known Bob since I firstcame to Customs in 1988.
He is retired as a seniorspecial agent.
He has great stories and aunique perspective on law
(00:25):
enforcement and basketball.
Bob's written a book.
It's called Inside Both Courts.
I've read the book.
It's fantastic.
He's got great pictures of the80s with people that I worked
with in Miami and also seizuresmade of the narcotics reign of
terror that occurred back then.
(00:47):
His book the Forward is byJoseph Pistone.
Now for our listeners they don'tknow who that is If you've seen
the movie Donnie Brasco.
Joe was the FBI agent thatinfiltrated the mob in New York
and was about to be a made manwhen they did the takedowns.
(01:10):
He's a great guy.
He teaches to this dayundercover techniques and Bob is
very close with the cops andthe agents over the years.
I'm going to let him explainhis background and the unique
perspective about him.
He is a championship basketballcoach and you know, in this
(01:37):
flamboyant style of anybodycoming from New York that
coaches basketball, anybodycoming from New York that
coaches basketball, a sports fan, somebody that I trust when he
gives you his word.
His word is there and that'sthe most important thing in law
(01:59):
enforcement.
Many times us in lawenforcement see people fall by
the wayside due to politics anddue to other things.
Bob's a stand-up guy, so it'smy pleasure to welcome Robert
Starkman to Justice.
Then Justice, now, bob, how areyou?
Speaker 2 (02:16):
Good, good Thanks,
jeff.
Thanks Toby.
It's funny when I hear Robert.
I look around because only twopeople call me Robert my wife
and Miles.
So I get nervous, you know whenI Anyhow, no, that's good.
I appreciate you having me on.
It's an honor to be on yourshow.
Speaker 1 (02:30):
Thank you If you
could, if you could tell and I
wanted you to mention too thatyou actually started out in
corrections, I think, which isimportant because you deal with
prisoners and I think, as anagent or a police officer, the
safety factor is number one.
You want to be able to comehome to your wife and kids and
other activities that you have,and over the years we both have
(02:55):
seen people that don't payattention to that.
We'll talk about that later.
But if you could give yourbackground and starting out with
that, and then how you ended upin Florida, and we'll lead in
and I'll occasionally jump inand ask questions that the
viewers may not understand, andI'd like to also get into the
(03:18):
basketball part of it.
I find that fascinating.
You've had a very successful,you have a wonderful wife and a
very successful family and that.
So, bob, all yours.
Speaker 2 (03:32):
Okay, well, I was
born in the Bronx, raised in
Queens, went to school inCalifornia.
One year I played ball outthere, transferred back to New
York, played three more years atYork College.
I really didn't know what Iwanted to do and we used to rent
summer homes out in theHamptons for this, you know,
during the summer a whole bunchof my friends and I remember one
(03:54):
morning I picked up the paradesection, which I think is called
the color section and I sawthis.
The cover was New York City'smost decorated detective.
I was this guy, ralph Friedman.
There's a picture of himgrabbing this perp and kind of
bring him in.
I read the story.
I'm like this is pretty cool.
So it kind of gave me a littleyou know, initiative to go out
(04:17):
and maybe start taking policetests, which I started doing
with a lot of my friends.
This was in the 70s Now.
I remember the fiscal problemin New York was pretty bad back
then, so I took every test.
It was funny.
Like I said, I always wanted tobe a city cop.
After reading that article whenI took that test I actually got
a 93, and it was a failure.
(04:38):
94 was the cutoff and I nevergot a 93 in my life on anything
you know.
So you know it happened.
But at the same time I wastaking every other test.
So I took state correction,city correction, marshals, you
name it.
I took it and in 1980, well, 79, I was a bouncer in a club and
(05:00):
I guess that was my prerequisitefor getting called to be a
correction officer.
I got called to work for thestate.
Actually I got called once inbetween a strike, but there was
no way I was going to go upthere and, you know, jump a
picket line when these guyseventually I'd be working with.
So I waited.
I'm back in July 25th, exactly1980.
(05:20):
I remember calling my house andI would call every day before
cell phones get on the pay phoneI'd call my brother, wake him
up.
Hey, the mail come, the mailcome.
And on that day he said yeah,you just got something from
state correction in Albany.
I said great, open it up.
Basically it said I don't knowwhat day it was, probably it was
a Thursday or Friday.
That Monday I had to report toAlbany where the state academy
(05:41):
is.
So I went up there andbasically I was only there for
two days.
We were called two day wonders.
They never had that in thehistory of correction.
We're in the academy for twodays.
Come back home.
I'll never forget.
On Friday and Monday morning Ihad to report to Greenhaven,
which was a pretty bad jail as amax a.
It was a rough jail.
(06:02):
Now, as you know, I'm a prettybig guy.
I actually was bigger back thenand if anybody ever says they
weren't scared walking into ajail, they're lying.
So the first day we go in itwas like a James Cagney movie.
They had, I guess, their SWATteam, sert team, which was like
correction and emergencyresponse team, and had these
orange jumpsuits on.
And you know I laugh becauseyou know like this kind of
(06:24):
reminds me of the initial wetteam with customs.
You know, guys are pretty short.
I'm not saying they weren'ttough or good, but I'm looking
at these guys with bats.
You know hats and bats andthey're ready to go.
I'm like the biggest guy inthere.
Anyhow, I'm walking and it waslike, like I said, like a movie
from James Cagney.
There was mattresses burning inthe yard.
It was definitely scary and Inever forget I was walking with
(06:48):
this girl.
They had us in twos and it wasDiana Pappas and she was a
really good-looking young ladyand I remember the inmates were
screaming some vulgar things outthe window, and she turns to me
, she goes, are they saying thatto me?
I said they sure as hell arenot saying that to me, so you
could just imagine what wasbeing said.
So, anyhow, we went in thereand, to be honest with you, I
(07:08):
had second thoughts.
I'm like what am I doing?
And you know, with no training,just probably just my
background, growing up in NewYork, you know, and I was joking
, I said being a, b the tests.
He actually got hired, probablyclose to a year before me, and
there he was what they callpacking an inmate.
(07:30):
You know, they take the,they're packing him up, they
take his mattress, they throwall this crap in there, they
roll it up and it's a pack ofcigarettes rolled in his sleeve.
And Carl's a big dude and he'ssmoking a cigarette Right, and
my nickname was Stitch.
I don't know if I ever told youthat.
No, you didn't.
And all of a sudden, well, itwas my father's name and my
buddies adopted it for me.
So all of a sudden he turnsaround, he looks at me, he goes
(07:51):
Stitch, what's up?
I'm like this is going to befun.
Fast forward.
I worked there for a couple ofmonths Before I even went to the
academy.
I was in charge of a cell block.
Now you could just imaginethere was, I think, 1900 inmates
there.
Most of them at the time wereprobably doing double life
sentences.
So it was a great.
You know, experience learning.
(08:13):
I went back to the academysometime in January just for two
weeks.
Really, what are they going toteach you?
You know you're in a max jailother than the law and you know
maybe firearm techniques orwhatever.
They can't teach anything else.
I'll tell you that.
And then that February I getcalled for city correction.
But I already was engaged andit was great because now I can
(08:37):
move back to the city, because Iwas living upstate.
I can go back to the city andcity correction paid about five
thousand more to start.
Back to the city and citycorrection paid about 5,000 more
to start.
So I was very lucky.
Here again, I'm in the academyfive days and I get called out.
So here I am, figuring I'm introuble.
I'm like, what did I do?
I'm only here five days.
Basically, they called out fiveof us that had prior state time
(08:57):
and they put us right into afacility.
I went to the Queen's house,somebody went to the Brooklyn
house, the Bronx house, whichusually takes years to get there
or you have to have a goodrabbi, and I had neither of them
.
And it was funny because thenight before, two days before
that, I was driving.
I remember saying to my wifeJill I said, yeah, it's going to
take me 15 years to get there,and then after the weekend I get
(09:18):
assigned there.
So I worked there for about ayear, year and half, and while I
was there I was assigned to thespecial housing units.
I had all the celebrity copkillers, as they're called.
I had the two black liberationarmy guys, james nixon york and,
uh, anthony laborde the scarydudes.
So just one cell was thenupstairs.
I had cops that got locked upsnitches.
(09:40):
Back then.
They actually had transgendersor whatever they called them
back then in the 80s, and it wasreally weird because like, on
one level you have, you know,cops that got locked up and they
really can't go into generalpopulation, and on the other
level I have cop killers, youknow, of course they didn't
intermingle.
So I did that for a while andthen I got called, I put in.
(10:01):
You know, I put in for everyjob, and I put in for every job
and I put in for deputy sheriffand I had seen it in the Civil
Chief.
I used to read that every.
I think it used to come out onThursdays or Tuesdays and I saw
that New York City had oh no, no, that's not what happens.
I forgot, I never heard of that.
I thought I'd heard of everyjob.
And one day I'm working atSally Port and these two guys
(10:21):
come in and they have a prisonerand they flash a badge.
Speaker 1 (10:24):
It looks like a
detective just kind of one thing
the sally port for thelisteners is where they're.
Yeah, yes, I'm sorry yeah.
Speaker 2 (10:32):
So what happened was
they flash a badge.
And the one thing I alwayslearned that correction, and
especially living in new york,anybody could have a badge.
So I said yeah.
I said you know sheriffs.
I said where you know nassausuffolk, they go new york, I go.
Where you know sheriffs.
I said where you know NassauSuffolk, they go New York, I go.
Where you know Sullivan County,they go New York City, I go New
York City has a sheriff'soffice.
I thought that I knew every jobthat was out there.
(10:53):
And lo and behold, they saidlisten, we have an opening.
Why don't you put a resumetogether?
Now, you know, it was the olddays.
You know the little typewriters.
Speaker 1 (11:02):
I think my outfit
Triple carbon.
We all remember that.
Speaker 2 (11:06):
Yeah, yeah, yeah,
Right, exactly yeah.
And if it slips, the ink stains.
Speaker 1 (11:09):
White out on your
desk.
Speaker 2 (11:11):
Yeah.
So what happened was, see, theywere responsible for civil
prisoners and in the area whereI had the cops that got locked
up, the snitches and the others,there was also civil prisoners.
So I took that job.
I said, hey, it was a best keptsecret, I knew I wasn't going
to stay there, you know it.
Just, it was the same pay asthe uniformed services, you know
(11:31):
, corrections, fire, police.
So it's a no brainer, probablythe worst job I've ever had.
Basically, I was a glorifiedprocess server with a gun, you
know, even though it was a stage, a city job.
So I stayed there for a whileand, uh, as you know me well, I
always.
You know, we joke around a lotand I do funny things.
So my friend call one day I was,uh, I was looking in the back
(11:53):
of the, uh, the new york post.
They have this like barbizonschool of beauty.
So I fill it out.
His name is call anthonyterrasano.
I put caller, like he's a girl.
Oh, my, I know, I send it out,and they call on his house.
Oh, we understand, caller.
They call him caller.
So he had gotten me back.
He had a letter that he gotcalled for border patrol.
(12:15):
He kind of changed it around,but you could see the whiteout.
You knew it wasn't legit.
But lo and behold, I come backfrom vacation and I'm sitting in
the sheriff's office and myphone rings.
Now at the time I think therewas only like 28 sheriffs in the
city.
They're up to over 300.
They're uniform.
Now it's changed.
So the phone rings and somelady said, hey, I'm so, and so
(12:37):
from us customs, uh, your namecame up, or whatever.
I go call, stop effing with me.
I do this call.
Like messing with me.
I'm like, hey, stop effing withme.
I'd do it with Carl, likemessing with me.
I'm like, hey, stop effing withme, because I totally forgot
about the customs job that I putin and it was for the Customs
Patrol Officer, cpo.
Speaker 1 (12:53):
Can I stop you?
Speaker 2 (12:54):
for a minute.
Speaker 1 (12:55):
I have some questions
.
First of all, ralph Friedman'sbeen on.
He's terrific, he's a legend.
He's a cop's terrific, he's alegend, he's a.
He's a cop's cop, he's.
He's unbelievable.
He's got a Gregoriuspersonality and it was a real
pleasure.
So your interest in lawenforcement.
(13:16):
I'm sure you wanted to be aWNBA player as a kid.
Speaker 2 (13:21):
WNBA is women.
That's number one WNBA.
Matt, I justBA.
Speaker 1 (13:25):
I kind of knew when
did you want to be a cop?
Speaker 2 (13:28):
that's what I'm
asking yeah, I want to be a cop.
You know, it's like it's justsomething I wanted to do and I
had a lot of friends who hadfriends that were cops, but
again in the 70s, you know, theyweren't hiring right, they were
laying off.
Speaker 1 (13:40):
They were laying off.
Speaker 2 (13:42):
I'm saying you know
what I'm going to take the first
job that comes and just get towhat I want.
You know where I want to beokay.
Speaker 1 (13:48):
So you got the phone
call from customs and what did
they tell?
Speaker 2 (13:51):
you, uh, you know,
your name came up, uh, for
employment, and I turn aroundlike I said call, get the f out
of here, don't f with me.
I just got back from vacationand all of a sudden there's like
a pause in the phone call andshe says listen, I'm going to
tell you again.
My name is not call, I'm so andso from you know personnel and
(14:12):
we'd like you to come interview.
So I'm like, okay, how aboutnext week?
She says, how about tomorrow?
I'm like I'm dead, I'm nevergetting this job.
You know, after what I said,yeah so, lo and behold, next day
I find a suit.
I think I had one from you know, like when I used to go to bar
mitzvahs and stuff and weddingswith the white, white collar and
the big tie yeah, yeah, I hadthose two you know, yeah.
(14:36):
So anyhow, I uh, I show up andI'm like nervous as hell only
because of you know what I, whatI said.
I walk in, the lady comes out,she goes listen, I'm not your
friend, call relax.
So right there, I knew I wasokay.
So I go through the interviewand one of the questions they
said to me was hey, you don'thave any investigative
(14:56):
experience.
I said, well, you know, in thesheriff's office I did a lot of
you know, I was able toelaborate a little.
But I said but here's the thing, I worked in a max jail and I
worked in a city jail with allcop killers.
You know everybody's innocent.
Just ask them.
You learn body language, youlearn the lingo, you learn
different things.
You know you learn a lot aboutthem.
(15:18):
You know which.
Most investigators don't havethat experience and you know it
went.
So now I'm walking out and thisguy comes up to me, a short,
older fellow, and he says to mehow's Stitch?
I go, excuse me, he goes.
How's Stitch, dad, right, he'stalking about me?
Speaker 1 (15:36):
Yeah, nobody knows.
Yet I'm like how the hell doeshe know?
Speaker 2 (15:39):
I never put that on
the OD-171, my father's nickname
.
So it turns out he calls meover on the side.
He grew up with my father.
They used to play basketballtogether him, the brother and my
father all went off to war,world War II.
His brother never came back.
He was a retired detective.
His name was Gus Gersey.
My father probably didn't speakto him in I don't know 30 years
(16:00):
and he saw the name.
He saw the application and hecalled me over on the side.
And he saw the name, he saw theapplication and he called me
over on the side and he saidlisten, you know, I kind of felt
really comfortable and I knowmy father hasn't spoken to me,
he hasn't never mentioned thatname to me.
It wasn't like he made a phonecall and you know, he just kind
of told me about the job andwhatever.
And a week later I'm in there,you know, filling out a little
paperwork and I got hiredOctober 3rd.
Speaker 1 (16:23):
Okay, and what
happened from then on?
How did you get to SouthFlorida?
Speaker 2 (16:28):
Okay, so October 3rd
we couldn't go to the academy
until January.
I think second or whatever itwas, you know, because there's
no class, but being I had priorlaw enforcement, so was a few
other guys that you know gothired.
They let us go to the range andqualify.
Basically we stayed at theairport.
Uh, you know just helping out.
You know doing secondaries.
I actually went on two controldeliveries before I even came
(16:52):
out.
You know the academy.
And then, uh, I got to befriends with bobby benevente in
the academy.
I met him and he was in floridaat the time and he was really
nice.
He was an agent school.
He actually used to be a cpo aswell and his son is an agent
too.
No, yeah, I heard, yes, I heard,yeah.
So, uh, what happened was wewere just uh talking.
(17:14):
He goes listen.
If you ever want to come toflorida, you call me okay, you
know, you know the way mostpeople are yeah, okay, so they
had us on this undercoveroperation.
We lived out in Montauk, youknow, nick Jacobellis, jim
O'Rourke and it was one otherguy, kenny Coz, and a couple of
guys.
We were only CPOs.
You know, we weren't agents yetand you know, looking back I'm
(17:37):
like something's wrong.
You know, I spoke to friendsthat were older than me that had
worked undercover and differentthings.
Just they weren't ready for whatthey were doing.
And they weren't, and that'sjust the way it was.
So what I did was I toldBenevente, listen, I'm going to
come down there one weekend, Iwant to see what it's like.
And Nick, myself and this guy,kenny Koza, came down on our own
(17:58):
and I remember we went to wasthat Papa 100?
You know where?
The CPOs?
Speaker 1 (18:02):
Sure right across
from the Hyatt.
Speaker 2 (18:05):
Yes, right, holiday
Inn it used to be, I think yeah.
So we went down there and hetook us around.
He introduced us to AlWesterman, who was the chief of
patrol, and it was really funny.
I always remember this, goingdown on the dock, you know,
downstairs, and the smell ofmarijuana.
I thought I was in like in acollege dorm, like, and the
(18:25):
smell of marijuana.
I thought I was in like in acollege dorm, you know like it
was just reeking because theyused to keep diseased marijuana
down there.
And I see this guy on a boat, anunmarked boat towing in a boat,
with a guy in handcuffs and twoor three barrels.
I'm like what the hell is that?
So the guy comes in.
It happened to be Joe Gouletand what he did was he caught
some guy out in the ocean.
He was waiting to refill youknow a dope boat.
(18:47):
I said, man, this is cool, youknow anyhow.
So we went down there and Idon't even think I told my wife,
I just told her how we went toAl Westerman's office.
He said, listen, this is what Icould do for you If you could
come down by August, whateverthe last week of August.
Basically, it was like gettinga scholarship as a CPO.
That doesn't happen.
I was a GS-5.
(19:07):
Paid my house hunting trip,paid my closing fees and I
wanted 30 or 60 days temporaryquarters.
So Al said they brought us in.
Just before you were there theyhad this small boat reporting
stations with the inspectors.
I said Al, listen, I don'tthink I called him Al then but I
(19:28):
told him listen, I can't go onboats.
I said I get nauseous.
I said the only boat I don'tget sick on is the Circle on the
New Yorker.
Speaker 1 (19:35):
You know the big boat
that goes around.
I've swam next to that boat.
Speaker 2 (19:41):
I know you have, I
know, and I said I just can't do
it.
You know it's just don't worry,okay.
So whatever Benevente did forme, he did the right thing and I
got assigned to the FIS team,which was the group to be in.
You know, we're all CPOs.
Jim Larrison and Val Jorge werethe super.
They were the SCPOs.
I'll never forget the first dayI get down there.
Nick and I we had to go to therange and qualify.
(20:04):
It was like 105 degrees.
I never shot a machine gun inmy life.
It was the first time I shot amachine gun.
And then we came back.
You remember the from the range.
I don't think the sack office.
Oh yeah, I'm not sure if thesack office is there.
Remember the Cuban place on 58?
There, actually, artie Cullenended up marrying the girl there
, el Faro.
Speaker 1 (20:23):
It's still there, el
Faro Right, and I saw Artie
about two years ago at the Cubanthe one across from Coral
Gables High.
School and I went in For an ATF.
Yeah, I know.
Speaker 2 (20:36):
It was the bus boy.
Good, good, great guy, soanyhow.
So I see, like the Gatorade bar, you know the Gatorade thing on
the shelf and so I said, man,I'd watch Miami Vice, I'm going
to order a Cuban coffee.
I take the Cuban coffee, takethe water.
Here I am thinking I'm cool.
I had the runs for the nextweek and then went to work the
(21:00):
next day, showed up and this isone of the greatest things, and
I don't know too many bossesthat would have ever done it.
They definitely wouldn't do it.
Now, hands me a set of keys.
He says to me and Nick, listen,go out, learn Miami, I'll see
you in a week.
Unbelievable.
And we went out, went to theports, went along the river,
drove around, did everything,and then I started working there
(21:21):
, trial by fire that's what itwas.
And that was good.
Speaker 1 (21:29):
That's the way to do
it.
You know the one thing that Iremember Joe Goulet was great,
because for a while I was thetraining officer, as you know,
and Joe would come in and teachBlue Lightning and me.
I wasn't on a customs boat, sohe would come in, but Joe would
have.
We'd have pictures of theSanteria chickens that were
(21:51):
thrown against the boats.
You know what I'm talking about, for those people not from
Miami.
It's an Afro Catholic religionwhere they they try to protect
themselves with this and theywould throw the chickens and
leave it next to the boats tonot have dope picked up at sea.
Okay, I just wanted to add that, but go ahead.
Speaker 2 (22:12):
No, no, no, no.
That's supposed to keep thecops away, you know, when
they're trying to send three toboot.
So then I'm working forPenevente funny for a while, and
then I go on vacation to NewYork my wife was finishing
college.
I go up there, I come back andnow I find out Group 8, now it's
called Group 8.
It's the old, you know, fiskGroup 8.
(22:32):
And there's a new boss, wayneRoberts.
I don't know Wayne from a holein the wall.
I just heard they called himthe Rocket man when he was in
Greenback.
The way he worked, you know,like a rocket, nonstop.
Evidently.
I guess he handpicked a lot ofus.
He called me in his office andit's funny what he said to me I
still use today when I coach.
He called me and he goes listen, I don't know you, but I'm
(22:56):
going to tell you one thingDon't ever lie to me.
I'll go to the wall for you.
If you lie to me, I'm going tothrow you off the wall.
And that was like the great andI lived by that even with
basketball.
To this day, even in the highschool, I help out.
I tell the kids that.
So that group, we were justkicking ass.
I don't think anybody was doingwhat we were doing.
Speaker 1 (23:13):
And we were all CPOs.
Speaker 2 (23:14):
That was like 85, 86.
I think I want to say Novemberof 86, I got selected for agent
and they were making aconversion and we're making CPOs
and then to agent.
Yeah.
So I went to agent school, cameback, uh, work for Wayne.
I mean, with the time, you know, in the 80s we had the time of
(23:36):
our life and I learned so muchfrom him, you know, just oh,
wayne Roberts was a master ofdeveloping informants and that
was and he actually I was in anadult group but he helped me
with some of the banking throughhis connections he was a
wonderful supervisor.
Speaker 1 (23:55):
I just wanted to say
that go ahead.
Speaker 2 (23:58):
No, but he knows the
job and he taught us.
You know, I know he got jammedup over jealousy and all kinds
of stuff.
Speaker 1 (24:04):
Of course Always
happens, yes.
Speaker 2 (24:07):
So now I'm there I
don't know a year or two, I
don't even know how long Waynegets promoted back to greenback.
He said to me just hang out,just lay low.
And then Woody Kirk took overour group and Woody was a good
boss too.
So Wayne told me listen, justlay back, I'm going to get you
over to Greenback and that'swhere you get your 13.
(24:28):
And that was the days where itwas competitive, not one, you
know, you didn't get wanted in.
I had to put in for it becausethe person so, anyhow, I go to
Greenback and I'll never forgetthis.
So I'm like Wayne, you know,how does this work here?
Like you know.
Like how does this work here?
Like you know what are youusing informants?
And I have no idea about moneylaw.
I know a little bit because wedid some cases in Group A.
(24:49):
You know little spin-offs.
I said, like, how do you getinto these people?
He said we have this new dog.
I said you have a new dog.
He goes yeah, it's the Jewishsetter, the money dog.
He's like he was messing withme, yeah, so I remember that.
And then then that was just,that was great.
Greenback was so much fun.
And then I don't know, if youremember, I'm the one that got
(25:10):
the local cops assigned.
I got broward sheriffs.
Speaker 1 (25:13):
Yep, tommy, okay, all
those guys, I actually you
talked to him and you oh yeah, Igot everybody.
Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2 (25:20):
So you know, I
started that, which was great,
you know, and it was just fun,you know.
Know, I started that, which wasgreat, you know, and it was
just fun, you know, and I had ablast.
And then, you know, wayne gotjammed up uh, you know it was bs
, I thought, but you know who amI, and uh, then he was
suspended for a while, if youremember.
Then he, you know everythingwas back, I believe he went to
headquarters, so we were kind offlipping around.
(25:42):
I was in a couple of thegreenback groups Dave Warren, a
few others and then I want tosay I landed up in like the
Exodus group or something.
Oh, no, no, a port group.
It was a little different.
It wasn't what I was used toworking the port, you know, no,
running and gunning like whatyou guys did.
Speaker 1 (26:04):
Yeah Well, it was a
little different, you know.
Speaker 2 (26:07):
And then I went to, I
want to say, the Exodus group
for a while.
Then I went to the.
They put me in the FBI JointTerrorist Task Force.
I was there from before 9-11,during and after, so I think it
was about four years.
I was there.
That was a good assignment.
Somebody tried to jam me up andit was just all BS, but that's
(26:29):
all right.
And then I believe Alex was theASAC at the time and I asked
Alex.
I said Alex, listen, I'd liketo go to Fort Lauderdale.
I'm coming towards retirement.
I had my 20 years in it alreadyand it'd be nice.
You know I live up north, it'dbe nice.
So I go there and I getassigned to a group supervisor
(26:52):
who had an IA case on me whichwas all BS and I think that was
all over the jealousy of themtrying to go after Miles' son
and I got called to the grandjury and the case was ruined
because I told the truth, so,and I got called to the grand
jury and the case was ruinedbecause I told the truth.
So now I'm working for this guyand life is miserable, like you
know.
I'm getting treated like a, youknow, like a new agent.
But I don't say nothing.
(27:13):
You know I don't say a word.
Next thing, I know I gettransferred to 79th Street,
which is the punishment groupafter the merger.
Yeah, and if?
Speaker 1 (27:25):
I was there, I was
there.
Speaker 2 (27:27):
Were you?
Okay, you weren't the one, so Ibelieve I came to work for you.
You did.
Speaker 1 (27:32):
But I think there was
somebody for you, right?
Speaker 2 (27:35):
And then were you
there when we moved out to like
by that of 183rd and byTootsie's over there, whatever
that place is.
Remember there was an officethere.
Oh, no, no, no, you were gone.
You were gone.
I worked for you.
Speaker 1 (27:49):
I was there when we
had people around the block and
dunking donuts across the streetand all that.
Yeah, right, right, right.
Speaker 2 (27:58):
Okay.
So then I worked for you, whichwas fine, still wasn't, I don't
mean you, but it wasn't what weused to do.
But there was a change Oncethat merger came to me.
It was just a total differentjob and you know, then I landed
up going to oh when I wastransferred to the airport.
(28:19):
Based on my experience at theairport, which I never worked, I
was transferred to the airport,if you remember, A response
group, which is normally for newagents.
You know, sometimes they thinkthey were punishing me At the
end of my career.
They weren't, which is normallyfor new agents.
You know, sometimes they thinkthey will punish me.
I'm at the end of my career.
They weren't, which is fine.
You know, I did my job, did whatI had to do and you know,
several times, because I startedcoaching in college, it was
part time, from 97 actually,just to a couple of years ago
(28:42):
and you know there was a lot ofjealous guys and, as you know,
they said that I'm working fulltime.
When I'm an agent I'm not atwork.
And you know I never did that.
You know it was.
It was just.
You know it was aggravating.
But if you know you're doingnothing wrong, you have nothing
to hide, but you always havethat fear in the back of your
head.
You don't know who they'rereally going to believe.
(29:04):
And again, there was nothing.
Nothing there, so I did that.
Then one night we were on acontrolled delivery at the
airport.
I thought it was pretty bad.
I thought I was going to getshot and you could read about it
in my book.
I don't want to feel like I donwas.
(29:27):
I went home that night.
It was so bad I went home thatnight Probably was the longest
ride I've ever taken, when, infact, at a late hour at night to
my house it was probably 30minutes, it seemed like 10 hours
and I got on the computer and Istarted pulling out my
paperwork and I put it in andthat was, I don't know, during
the summer and then I retiredthat January.
Speaker 1 (29:48):
Okay, you know, oh,
you had a I'm sorry.
Speaker 2 (29:51):
The only thing I
forgot to tell you was really
weird.
When I was at the CPO Academy,I was on the phone with my wife,
Jill, and, uh, I remember hertelling me I was three days from
graduating.
You have to spend a three and ahalf months down there.
I remember her telling me thatI just got a letter from NYPD.
My name got called off anotherlist and I'm like you know what
I don't like school.
(30:12):
I just spent three and a halfmonths in Glencoe, Georgia.
I'm not taking it, and you knowwhat Things worked out for the
better.
Speaker 1 (30:20):
Oh yeah, it's strange
.
Like I left DC and I came toFlorida and I was my ex-wife,
was hired and I was, like insports, a player to be named
later.
You know, that's exactly how.
I got hired player to be namedlater.
I don't know if you rememberone of the incidents we had at
(30:42):
79th which you brought to myattention.
You came in and we talked inthe office and you said, oh,
there's some guys from IA aroundthe building and I said what?
So I went out and I recognizedthem and they had a line.
So they did this to me and wewent over to Dunkin' Donuts and
(31:06):
I said what's going on?
I mean you got three guys thatI recognize here at the building
.
He said pornography.
And I go what do you meanpornography?
And they said oh, this is inthe early days of the internet,
like 2004 or 2003.
(31:26):
They said there's a show called8th street latinas and I said
it's on the internet.
And they what they do is theypick women out of the line to
get immigration paperwork andthey pretend like they can get
them papers and they go to ahotel and then nothing happens.
(31:46):
And I said you've got to bekidding me.
I said yeah, so they were allout and they had a complaint
with this.
It was all fictitious,obviously, but again, I remember
calling everybody in and sayingyou're going to see some faces
that you may recognize.
Just leave it alone, and thatthat you may recognize.
(32:09):
Just leave it alone, you know,and that.
So eventually I called the SAC,who I was probably not on good
terms with.
Speaker 2 (32:19):
I can't remember who,
because Alex was the ASAC.
Speaker 1 (32:21):
So that was in what
03-04?
Speaker 2 (32:24):
Yeah, well, no, no,
when I was there, maybe 05.
Speaker 1 (32:27):
Was it.
Speaker 2 (32:28):
Clark, maybe I don't
know, it had to be Jesus.
Speaker 1 (32:35):
I'm not going to say
his name on this, so anyway,
that blew over, but it was kindof entertaining that, that was
going on and nobody had calledus, because it didn't involve
agents.
Speaker 2 (32:50):
It was something else
we could have assisted on.
Okay.
Speaker 1 (32:53):
So I know your career
.
I know the supervisors you had,wayne and Woody.
They were fantastic.
They made cases.
They put dope on the table.
Thank you, they did all thisstuff and put it on the map.
One of the people that Iinterviewed yesterday.
He was a drug smuggler out ofthe Keys.
(33:14):
You'll see it in an upcomingepisode.
He got seven life sentences.
He's released and he detailedhow Charlie Jordan was and
Charlie Jordan worked for hisorganization.
So I hope you watch that.
Charlie Jordan worked for hisorganization, so I hope you
watch that.
It's kind of really, reallyfascinating what modus operandi
was with that.
(33:35):
But let's get back to you.
So tell me about yourbasketball coaching.
It's quite tremendous, you know, and how you did that, and it's
a very I think, a very positivething that a federal agent was
able to use his knowledge inthat to enhance others.
(33:55):
And I know from Facebook andfrom you that you keep in
contact with these guys andladies and they're all
successful.
Obviously, we've all playedsports and we had that coach
that brought us along both as aman or a woman and also as a
player.
(34:15):
And I think you're playing days.
They end, you know, but lifegoes on and the character that
you build up goes forward.
Speaker 2 (34:28):
So tell me a little
about the basketball side.
Well, I remember my lastcollege game was 1978 against
Manhattanville College atFordham University.
I remember that After that Iplayed in some summer leagues,
played in a winter league like acitywide YMCA, played at West
Fork Street in Manhattan, playedout in the Hamptons in Long
(34:48):
Island.
I played at West 4th Street inManhattan, played out in the
Hamptons in Long Island, andthen when I got into law
enforcement I really didn't have, you know, time and I kind of
lost my interest.
I liked watching it but youknow I would just play every
once in a while in the park whenI was still living home, you
know, in New York.
I mean, come down to Florida.
My daughter's probably I don'tknow seven or eight years old,
(35:10):
maybe a little bit younger.
Speaker 1 (35:12):
She wants to play
basketball.
Speaker 2 (35:13):
So I take her up to
the Coral Springs Rec League and
I register her and you know, Isee what's going on and I never
coached and I never had anydreams about coaching.
And now I'm watching.
I mean this goes back 30 yearsago.
My daughter's like 38 nowAlthough I shouldn't have said
that on TV she gets mad.
(35:34):
But I started coaching becauseI couldn't stand what was going
on.
You know, I couldn't stand likeit really bothered me that.
You know, let's say you pickeight kids on a team and let's
say me, me, you and Jeff arereally good.
So the coach would say, listen,miss your shots, look bad.
So this way you'd be like a six, seven and eight pick, but
(35:57):
realistically you're probably aone.
I'm like, is this really goingon?
So I started coaching and thenmy two boys were born and I
started coaching them and I wasgoing back and forth, back and
forth.
Uh, I coached, uh even Iremember my daughter's I want to
say going into high school,five stars, a legendary camp.
I worked there just so shecould go to camp.
(36:20):
You know, we went for a weekand I just started.
I was really, you know, betweenboth boys and my daughter.
I started coaching her and thenI put together a little travel
team for her just to help her.
Once she got into high school Ibroke away.
It was time.
You know, you know me very well.
I do not have to live my lifeto my kids.
You know, I have a 6'10 son andpeople would come up to me and
(36:43):
they'd say you're a coach, whydon't you make your son play?
I go listen.
I don't have to live my life tomy son and I will tell you he is
very, very successful and hewouldn't have made the money
he's making now if he playedbasketball.
My youngest son was a baseballplayer.
He did the same path that hisbrother did.
He became a manager atUniversity of Florida, did it
(37:04):
for four years and you know theSEC is big and upon graduation
he got interviewed I want to sayunder Armour, I think, nike and
the Atlanta Hawks.
He was offered an internshipand, fast forward the clock
going on 10 years he's now a VP.
So they've all done well.
I think being around sportscoaching hopefully had some type
(37:28):
of influence on them the way Iwas.
Because you know, one thing Ilearned from my father my father
used to work in the nightcenters.
They used to have that in NewYork and he worked in the South
Bronx.
And one thing I learned from myfather color doesn't mean
anything black, white, chinese,you know, people are people and
I've always been that way andI'm very thankful my kids
believe the same way, you know,especially in the crazy world we
(37:51):
live in.
So you know I was coaching andone day Miles calls me up and he
says hey, did you see today'sSun Central.
I said no.
He says, go in the you know theclassified or whatever.
I said, okay, so I go in.
And it said Broward College ishiring a women's assistant coach
, part-time.
He said, put in, I go, really.
(38:11):
So I put in, for the hell of it.
And next thing I know I getinterviewed and I'm the
assistant coach.
They fired the head coach.
Next year I'm the assistantcoach again.
They fired that coach and theymake me the head coach.
Now it's a part-time positionand at the time I think Broward
was the only school maybe in thecountry where the coaches are
(38:34):
not on campus.
So you know how hard that is,especially in junior college.
And uh, I took over the women'sprogram.
I was the women's head coachfor two years, so I did four
years with the women.
One day John Giordano, friend ofmine, who was, uh, the athletic
coordinator it was like a mafiamovie training out, he goes
come on, let's go to this game.
So we went to some high schoolgame.
(38:54):
He says I have good news andbad news.
I said, OK, well, give me thebad news You're going to be the
men's coach.
Well, that's not so bad.
What's the good news?
You're not coaching the womenanymore more.
Okay, and because of myrelationships and the friends I
have.
You know, with no recruitingbudget for the most part
scholarships are nowhere likethe other schools I competed
(39:17):
against my friends were able tohelp me out.
You know, like, get me players,that's the bottom line.
I mean I had seven, allamericans, uh, two or
two-timeAmericans.
I had the player of the yearand they were all sent to me
Three.
You know all of them, all theguys that made all were sent to
me.
I didn't even know who theywere.
So you know, I've always beenvery loyal.
(39:41):
The thing with the kids was ableto help me coach personally.
I think being in lawenforcement and vice versa, it
helps each other.
You know, I used to alwaysequate it to all right, you go
out on the drug bust, Okay.
If the guy you don't get him,hey, it's like a game, You're
lost.
Get a better plan, Get a gameplan together.
Don't cheat, Don't lie in court.
(40:02):
Same thing, you know.
Get a plan, go out and do it.
The one thing I learned from aformer assistant coachman who
passed away years ago, JayMcCormick.
He said to me you know what yougot to do.
You have to have the kidsbelieve that you'll run through
a wall.
You know, make them run througha wall for you and you'll be
right behind them.
And I always stood by that.
(40:23):
And you know, listen, I alwaysthought if you have a roster of
12 or 13, I always believed Icould help every kid and if you
help three it's great.
And I've never sat aside withjust helping three.
And there's been kids, you know,they can play them all they
want, but the kids that areloyal, the kids that, the ones
that listen, you know I use mynegative experiences as a player
(40:46):
, things that happened to me,you know, in the 70s, first of
all, your family never reallywent to a game.
They were working.
Your family never called up acoach.
Why are you not playing my son?
There was no portal.
You're not transferring likethey do now, you just suck it up
, you know.
So I learned.
You know, like you know, I wentfrom starting to never playing
(41:09):
and I never understood that.
And I don't know if I ever toldyou this, probably about I
don't know.
30 years ago I went to thisbasketball dinner they have it's
called the Maternal Order ofBasketball, all in New York City
.
At the time, my father wasprobably one of the youngest
guys there and he was in hislate 70s all old New York guys
and who walks in?
My college coach.
So now I'm like okay, do I be ajerk and say something stupid?
(41:34):
Do I walk away or am I going tobe a better person?
I chose to be a better person.
Speaker 1 (41:40):
Always take the high
road.
You're right about that.
Speaker 2 (41:42):
Yeah, you know, you
learn, especially as we get
older.
So I went up to him I said hey,how you doing?
Blah, blah, blah.
He says fine, turns to myfather and says if anybody
should hold a grudge against me,it's your son.
And that just threw me back.
And to this day I don't knowwhy he went that way.
And I talk to a lot of my oldteammates still and to this day
(42:04):
I don't know why you go fromstarting to not even playing.
But the one thing I learned isthat with my players in college,
if you're not playing, come tome, I will tell you what it will
take to play.
So an example was a kid, davidBrown, who's a local kid, went
to an NAIA school.
I think he sat out.
He came to me very goodacademic, pretty good basketball
(42:27):
player.
He wasn't playing and he cameup to me like the fifth game I
remember we were in a tournamentat palm beach junior college.
He says coach, why aren't I notplaying?
I said listen, dave, you don'tdefend that well and you got to
play tougher.
He says okay, fine, somethinghappened.
I don't know if somethinghappened with a player.
I put him in.
He scored 30, pointsed the hellout of the guy.
(42:49):
From that day on he startedevery game, made junior college
All-State in Florida which youknow Juco in Florida is some of
the best basketball in thecountry Went on to, I got him
hooked into Gardner-Webb,graduated he sent me the nicest
letter I've ever gotten fromsomebody.
But see, I don't like takingcredit for that.
(43:10):
This is my attitude.
I opened the door, you wentthrough it, I'll open the door
for you, but you've got to walkthrough it and it's the same.
You never hear me talk.
I got a lot of pretty.
You know some good accolades,but you know when I won, let's
say, my 100th game, oh, what doyou feel about that?
Every time I went into thehundreds I would say listen, I
(43:31):
don't win games.
Players win games.
You know.
You see most coaches yeah, no myjob is to get them out there,
keep them together, play hardand win Players, win games.
I'll argue with anybody, andyou know, and I think one of the
reasons that I was alsosuccessful at Broward is because
I did it for the right reason.
(43:51):
I was, you know, I was makingchicken scratch, part time
working.
I don't know how I got it doneto this day, you know, I just
don't know how I did it, but Idid it and I think a lot of it
is when the kids have trust inyou.
You know, it happens Like.
I'll just tell you one funnystory.
(44:12):
I had some suspicions they weresmoking weed which, listen, I
don't put up with that.
That's for numerous reasons.
I have a little shih tzu.
My foot was probably as big asmy dog.
I told him that I went to theapartment and I told him that
the dog was a customs dog Iborrowed from work because they
knew what I did for a living.
I had the dog walking around.
You remember the caninehandlers Find it, find it.
I think the apartment was sodirty and stunk.
(44:34):
My dog's ears were wiggling, soI got him scared, but it worked
.
If they were going to dosomething, yeah.
So you know, it was just littlethings.
You have to put a little fear,but you have to also know.
You know, know.
Speaker 1 (44:45):
They have to know you
after them, and that's what I
think was my success it's likethe old saying you, you know,
you do, you help people becauseyou want to and you expect
nothing in return.
Um, when I served on the boxingand mma commission, um, I tried
to get.
I had a lot of people call meand say I'm interested in this,
(45:05):
I've interested.
So, the ones that werequalified, I referred and they
got hired, but I didn't expectanything in return for that.
It was just here's a door, likeyou said, opening it up, and I
was opposed to the testing wetried to.
Well, they did the marijuanatesting for fighters.
(45:28):
I couldn't imagine getting intoa fight on marijuana.
I mean, you're going to getknocked out and that's just so.
They left it to the doctors todetermine that.
But anyway, sports is changingand I wanted to talk to you
about and we're going to go backto law enforcement.
I wanted to talk to you aboutthe internet gambling and the
(45:51):
gambling now in sports and inbasketball.
I know there's been a fewinstances where there's been
point shaving and that.
Do you think, as a professionalcoach, that this is going to
have an effect on games withplayers?
Speaker 2 (46:09):
Well, I don't follow
any of that.
To be honest with you, I'm nota gambler.
I don't follow any of that.
However, you know, it's likemaking marijuana legal
Somebody's still going to sellit, somebody's still going to
bring it in.
So, no matter what bookmakershave been around forever, I
don't think that's going tochange.
You know, I think some playerjust got jammed up doing some
(46:34):
online betting.
He wasn't betting on his team.
I mean, there's so much outthere, they just approve
anything, you know.
I mean, you know, again, I'mnot really, you know, I don't
follow that because I I'm, Idon't enjoy gambling, you know,
I just don't, you know, so Idon't really know too much about
it.
Speaker 1 (46:47):
Okay, going back to
customs and I use that because
we're legacy customs and what'sthe most dangerous situation
that you had as an agent?
Because I refer in the bookthat Pete Thron wrote as there's
(47:08):
a group of agents that we callthe butt snorkelers.
Those are the ones that broughtdonuts in the office, brought
acquiesce to senior managers,and then the ride-alongs people
that when you had a searchwarrant or you had arrests, they
went upstairs and they strappedon three guns and they went out
(47:30):
and, you know, pretended likethey worked the case and led to
the seizure and that.
But what's the most dangerousthing that you had happen in
your career with customs?
Speaker 2 (47:47):
Worrying about
passing my final exam at the cpo
school.
Uh, you know, like I said, Iwas in two active groups, group
eight, we would.
You know, we were the asskickers, not the ass kissers.
We were the ass kickers when Iwent to greenback, we same thing
.
The one fortunate thing,working for wayne, you know, v
(48:09):
vet the streets.
He taught us so much.
And, like I said, I like torevert back to my being raised
in New York, the way I wasraised just being around things
working in jail.
I'm always thinking ahead.
That's me.
I mean, I could tell you therewere so many situations, you
(48:32):
know, I don't know where tostart, but I could say probably
the one of the worst was the, mylast experience which led me to
retire Control delivery.
Two kilos of heroin, you'resupposed to take it out and put
sham, leave enough in there.
(48:53):
Correct, without mentioningnames.
They allowed a new agent, arookie agent, to be in charge of
the control delivery as theinformant.
Really, there was no briefing.
You're supposed to do abriefing, an ops plan, right,
(49:13):
kind of?
Just, you know, go out.
So we go out.
And I was with a former dea, uh, former immigration agent, and,
if you're familiar with 36thstreet, right outside the
airport, before the palmetto.
So you got mcdonald's and youhave the denny's.
So the deal was, first of all,he was with two kilos of heroin,
(49:33):
not sham kilos of.
That was the first mistake.
No takedown, no, nothing.
I was driving because I justhad come out of.
You know, I still had my chiefof police car when I was over at
the FBI.
I had a grand marquee so Ireally couldn't fit in.
So what I did was I went to theMcDonald's parking lot next
(49:54):
door.
It was, you know, right east ofit, right next door literally.
And I said to the guy, withoutagain mentioning names, I just
said hey, just wait, something'sgoing to happen.
What are you talking about?
I said that's the bad guy.
She says how do you know?
I go?
It's 1230 at night.
There's three or four cars inthe McDonald's parking lot.
(50:15):
He's driving with his lightsoff, trying to this was my
interpretation trying to see ifthat was a cop car, somebody.
Would you know your lightsaren't on, flashing on the
lights because you're kidding me.
I said no, but I said quick,make like you're doing something
to me, because we have to makelike we're parking here.
So we did that, sure enough,car goes out.
All of a sudden I hear he'sgetting into the car.
(50:38):
What?
No, takedown, no, call, no,nothing.
Me, the schmuck that I am, youknow, I get 20,.
What?
Four years on I come out, youknow, like to get onto 36th
Street.
I make the right he's about toleave and I'm literally like
(51:00):
this I tell the guy, you get thedriver One of them was quiet
and I get the bad guy.
Now he's revving his engine.
You know, you get tunnel visionand you're going real fast,
real fast, real fast.
So what do I do?
I take the guy right throughthe window and I lift him up,
(51:20):
get him on the ground, put a gunto him, and my exact words are
I'm too effing old, don't move.
But prior to that, when I gethim out, there's a de-agent on
the roof of the car pointed amachine gun at me, you know,
like an ar-15 or something.
He wasn't thinking.
You know I had a ray jacket on,but he didn't know who was who
to play as well, because therewas no briefing got, as I said
(51:43):
in my retirement party, had theformer immigration agents with
their uh, immigration detectorson.
You know, everybody's pointingguns at me.
I'm more worried about acrossfire.
So bottom line is that's thenight that led to my retirement.
One other time, oh yeah, oneother time, uh, we're working
with wayne.
(52:03):
I got to the uh, was it when?
Yeah, it was wayne, I wasworking, uh, I was getting to
work late.
I would probably stayed outlate, you know, working the
night before I was driving a uhjeep laredo, which tommy o'eefe
got me out of seizure and I'lltell you the story when it's
over, about that car and I'mlate to the surveillance and I
(52:23):
was Woody Kirk used to say I'mthe only guy that had three
phones.
I would smurf phones, you know,like you only like $30 on each.
So I would do 29, 28 on theother whatever.
Speaker 1 (52:32):
Metro, yeah.
Speaker 2 (52:35):
I don't know whatever
they gave us what.
I don't know whatever they gaveus, what's it called?
I'm late.
I leave my house.
I have my bag.
I have a Beretta in there,what's it called?
I have a phone, my three phones, walkie-talkie, whatever else.
I always carry the gun on myankle.
Now I'm driving, no problem, I'mdriving down, driving down,
(52:56):
unbeknownst to me, I beingfollowed because, you know, cell
phones weren't popular so Iremember they used to rob cell
phones.
So I get you know to the setthere and wayne says okay, bob,
you got here late.
You know probably made acomment as usual.
I need you to go inside.
It was a gym, look for you knowwhatever guys wearing this and
that, yeah, no problem, I goinside.
I come out.
I see these guys.
They're doing something to mywindow.
(53:18):
So what they did?
They took a spark plug becauseremember the windows used to
have heavy tint on it and itwouldn't make a noise boom.
They followed me.
They grabbed my bag becausethat phones.
They saw me on the phone.
But I'm running it.
I'm running to the car.
The car goes in reverse.
I go for my gun.
I don't have it.
I left my gun gun.
I told you.
I ran late, my little gun on myankle.
(53:40):
I left it home the only time inmy life.
Boom, the car hits me.
Right.
I get on.
I get in the car.
My hand is a mess.
I get on the radio Because wehad units all over.
We're on what's ass right?
(54:00):
And I'm on the phone withsector and you know what that's
like.
You know, hold one moment.
You know, remember they used tocall up yeah communication
system.
Speaker 1 (54:08):
Oh yeah, I'm sorry,
but they were great.
Speaker 2 (54:10):
I mean, I was sector
was great.
So now I'm calling it in.
You know, I don't know eastfrom west.
I know where the, theMcDonald's is, burger King, I
know the water, whatever.
So I make a right-hand turn andI look up.
I go southbound Jose CansecoBoulevard, they go what.
I look up it's Southwest 16thStreet or Avenue, whatever.
(54:32):
So that's what I was making,being a wiseass.
Get into it, boom, wayne, and I, I surround the guy, get him
Another stupid move by meforgetting that I don't have a
gun.
And he does.
Get him out of the car.
Force was used enough to effectan arrest.
(54:53):
And next thing, I know, I gotIA calling me because the guy's
in the hospital.
I didn't even touch him, that'sthe funniest part.
And they're telling me me, whata great job.
Yeah, he's in the hospital ward, he's this, he's that.
And there was a guy that wasthe acting sack.
Oh, I want to take you out fora drink.
I said, listen, I was acorrectional officer.
I said we used enough forcenecessary to affect an arrest
(55:15):
and you know, that was that onethat was scary because you know,
shame on me.
And I will tell you that onlyhappened once in 38 years of
carrying a gun because I waslate now the funny part was I
had a jeep laredo which tommyo'keefe you know they used to
get us cars, yeah I know timeyeah.
So he gave me a nice one.
Well, this, I went on vacationprior to that.
(55:36):
It was like thanksgiving.
So we went out to see ourfriends phil and kathy those, my
, I think I told you they'relapd we go out, we spend
thanksgiving with them.
So heywood says hey, listen,can I borrow your car?
Because you know everybody usedto get christmas trees right
after thanksgiving.
I said, sure, you know, becauseI had.
It was a suv.
So when I come back I find outyou know I had like the seat
(55:57):
that drops back the wheel.
Well, is in the back.
Hey, what drops the seat back?
There was two kilos in there.
Speaker 1 (56:03):
I knew you were going
to say that we had that.
Speaker 2 (56:06):
It was Falcone and
Sal Magruder's car yeah.
Speaker 1 (56:09):
It was one of their
cars.
But here.
Speaker 2 (56:10):
I am.
Can you imagine if I got pulledover?
I don't know where that camefrom.
I don't know where that camefrom, do you remember?
Speaker 1 (56:19):
when we would all
rent from Inter-American Car and
we would use it for UCs andpeople put that into like
computer systems for MetroDadeand for DEA Natus and we had
guys getting pulled over becausethat car was in a drug thing at
gunpoint.
I mean your point's well taken.
They had kilos in the car so Inever knew that.
Speaker 2 (56:40):
And the funniest part
was haywood took credit, you
know, took credit for a seasonat least you should give me like
honorable mention, you know.
But there was a lot of hairytimes but I always felt safe
with wayne, like you know.
He was so good, you know, wehad a case with, we did a joint
case with O'Keefe and his MetroNorth guys and we it was like a
(57:03):
money deal.
They were doing a reverse butthe guy wanted to launder the
money.
So that's how we got involved.
Basically, this guy they used Ijust call him by his first name
, pedro they used him as anundercover and the guy basically
grabbed him and held himhostage and we didn't know what
to do and Wayne was like I don'tknow, wayne just broke the door
(57:26):
down.
This guy was so big, he made melook like a midget, like he
wouldn't let go.
I mean, we literally had to hithim several times and then he
just shook it off.
And with that story what wasfunny is we went back to the
house, you know, we got themoney, we got the dope, got two
kilos, you know money, but itwas more going to be a reverse
(57:48):
on him and he had like three orfour filed-down guns with
silencers and I think with ATFthat's like a major charge,
especially back then.
So you know, think with ATFthat's like a major charge,
especially back then.
So we, you know, we contactedATF to handle it and I'll never
forget that trial where hewalked out, the guy like hugging
, like I don't know if it washis attorney or us attorney all
(58:08):
charges dropped.
He was a CIA Bay of pigs spy,so he walked away with it, wow.
Speaker 1 (58:16):
Wow.
Speaker 2 (58:19):
That's.
You could go on and on withthat stuff, but you know,
overall it was fine.
It changed a lot after themerger, but customs was a great
agent.
Speaker 1 (58:30):
We had a lot of
camaraderie.
I think that even to this dayyou know we look at it now it's
30, almost 40 years coming up onnext couple of years it's still
that way.
And you know I always, alwaysvalued the most and I know you
did loyalty in people, that whenthey said something they would
(58:50):
do it.
You know that's a hard part inlife, that the older I get and
and that I see, I look back andI say well, this this guy.
He wasn't a straight shooter,you know, as far as what he said
he'd do and, uh, you know andI'm not here to talk about.
(59:11):
I would like to talk about somepeople, but I'm over that and
I've learned.
That's how they were and you'vehad the same experience and
that.
But no, you had a great career.
I thought it was great.
What motivated you to write thebook?
That's the question.
Speaker 2 (59:30):
So really fun.
When I was a statecorrectionist in 1980, you know
they didn't have phones Istarted taking, like I would
choose to.
We had a polaroid camera in theuh, what they call the a box.
You know the with the uh, thecontrol room, whatever it was
called I used to take picturesof the inmates like I would see
if they're celebrities you knowwhat I call celebrity, like a
high profile.
(59:50):
And when I got to the queen'shouse I had every cop girl.
I still got their photos.
And then with the sheriffs, Ihad a couple nice cases.
I took some photos.
And then with customs, you know, we saw that I was taking
photos.
I used to always take photos andI would write little notes.
I said one day I may write abook and I would write little
notes.
You know, whatever seizure youknow with toby, this guy, that
(01:00:12):
guy, uh, I would just do that.
And finally I kept on saying it, saying it, and my middle son,
bobby Stockman not StockmanStockman he said, yeah, you got
to write the book.
Come on, you've been saying it.
Speaker 1 (01:00:28):
So over, covid I said
, because I had sat down, you
need to plug your son on theshow.
Tell him what tell him what hedoes.
Speaker 2 (01:00:33):
I plug all you know
me.
I'm a family man.
I plug all you know me.
I'm a family man.
I plug them all in Daughter, myson-in-law, everybody.
It's just like I started doingit and I started writing down.
As you witnessed on our call, Ican't even sign on a computer.
I would type let's say Ispelled your name wrong.
I'd lose everything.
(01:00:54):
I called up Joe Pistone.
I said Joe, listen, I can'ttype.
He goes.
Do it the old school way Get apen and pencil, write everything
down.
So if I spoke Toby Rocheron, Icould put a line through it,
write over it, boom, boom, boom.
So I started doing that.
I said, wow, this is fun, Iwould take the pictures out.
Now I have a really good memory.
I remember just abouteverything.
It's crazy, you know.
(01:01:15):
I remember so many things and Iwas able to refer back to the
pictures, which refreshed mymind.
I started writing and writingand writing it.
So now what I did was one of myformer players, joe Lopez was
playing pro ball in Spain.
He was a little bored.
I said Joe, listen, if I payyou a few bucks, will you type
this for me?
He goes yeah, why not?
He wasn't doing anything.
So I would scan like maybeeight pages and send it to him.
(01:01:39):
He send it back, send it to him, send it back.
As I started putting it together, somebody else recommended an
editor.
You know it wasn't that, youknow it was good, it was worth
the price.
She kind of edited everythingand I kept on doing it, doing it
.
But a funny story with joe, thisguy, joe lopez, I never read,
like when he retyped I justassumed he typed everything and
(01:02:00):
the editor would go over youknow spelling or you know
correct sentences.
One day I decided to write it,to read it.
And there's a story in therewhere I got into it with a cop
killer in jail and whatever.
You know, I made sure in thebook I used the right words, you
know politically correct.
Well, what he does, he decidesto change it.
(01:02:21):
And there's a scenario wherethis guy, James Dixon York, gets
in my face and he's a bad dudeI mean, he's, you know, just bad
and I get in his face and,ba-ba-ba, we're going at it.
And Joe Lopez writes and I toldhim my name is Bob Stockman,
Don't F with me.
This is what he writes, but Ididn't know that.
(01:02:44):
Thank God I looked, it wouldhave came out.
It would have made me.
I'm not like that.
But yeah, and I just starteddoing it, and I'm actually
thinking about doing anotherbook on our coffee club guys
because their stories are greatand I'm just not going to put
their names because I don't knowif the seven years not that it
matters anymore in the courts,but see, at least seven years.
You know hasn't expired, butI'm thinking about doing that,
(01:03:07):
it was fun.
Speaker 1 (01:03:09):
Now you, you
obviously, joe Pistone, donnie
Brasco, his movie.
I know you were in it.
I remember working in themiddle 90s and when the movie
came out I had no idea you werein it.
And I'm watching it and I go,yeah, that's Bob the Bouncer in
there.
That's Bodyguard, I know, Iknow but your Bouncer story
(01:03:34):
plays into that nicely.
Yeah, it was about you blink aright, you miss it, but it was
fun yeah.
Speaker 2 (01:03:40):
I'm not, but you know
you got me in there.
But you know the good thingthat that's really amazing.
I mean, you know we keep intouch but I'm very close with
Alex Alonzo.
When you know, I don't know,alex will tell you the story.
His first time on a, on asurveillance, it was with me.
I took him out with us.
Miles, of course, I'm stillfriends with Miles.
(01:04:00):
Chuck Welcher still be with him.
Tracy Cooner we're good friendsthere's a couple of people.
It's nice to just keep in touch,because time goes by way too
fast and unfortunately we're inan age now you usually get a
phone call.
It's not good news.
Speaker 1 (01:04:15):
You usually meet at
funerals.
That's the sad part of it.
Speaker 2 (01:04:20):
Yeah, well, I'm just
you know, like I said, you know
it doesn't pay.
Whatever you know, bygones arebygones type thing, you know.
Speaker 1 (01:04:28):
And well, yeah, to a
point, to a point, but no, no,
no, no no irish guy frommassachusetts.
You know how we are you, I'm aJewish guy from New York.
Speaker 2 (01:04:38):
So, but you know
Jewish guilt, but no, I'm just
saying, you know, like I'm at apoint now, like you know, I know
like when I had those BSIAinvestigations, you know shit
happens.
I'm a firm believer in karmaand I'll leave it at that.
Speaker 1 (01:04:53):
That's right.
There's a lot of envy.
Speaker 2 (01:04:58):
We had a lot of envy
with people.
Listen, how many times was Iinvestigated because somebody.
I remember once I made acomment.
I said you walk through thehalls and somebody said what
happened?
I said we had the experience.
Yeah, we ripped a guy for amillion last night.
Two days later my Mirandawarrant was read to me.
Somebody called up I know whereit was and said they thought I
ripped the guy off for a milliondollars.
Speaker 1 (01:05:17):
Like I'm gonna tell
somebody, I'm just saying and
they probably seized two dollarsfrom the waitress's tip in
their, in their oh, I don't careno, but my, my point is you
know people aren't going tochange and you know like no, you
just you enjoy life.
Speaker 2 (01:05:35):
Now you know it's
like you, look, you laugh.
You really have to because youknow I see people.
My wife wanted to make a shirtup, especially like in sports,
and you know you see thesepeople, the older I get, the
better I was.
I like that the older I get,the better I was no-transcript.
(01:06:20):
I'd like to believe I had alittle influence on that, but
you know the way wives are.
They take credit for all thegood stuff.
But listen, my wife should geta gold medal anyhow for putting
up with me, so I'll give it thatmuch.
Speaker 1 (01:06:30):
I agree with that,
you know.
Speaker 2 (01:06:33):
Hey, you're supposed
to say no, yeah, you're supposed
to say no, no, I you know, Idon't comment on marriages.
Speaker 1 (01:06:39):
I've had a couple
myself.
Speaker 2 (01:06:42):
Yeah, no, I'm just
not the easiest guy to get along
with sometimes, you know.
Speaker 1 (01:06:46):
No, no, you're good
to get along with, because
honesty is the most importantthing.
So what do you?
You said you're going toconsider writing the second book
.
What are you planning to dowith the next uh, uh, 40 years
of your life?
Hopefully we live that long.
I'm always optimistic, you knowI may be like weekend at
(01:07:07):
bernie's, but you know it uh,hopefully I don't know.
Speaker 2 (01:07:11):
I mean right now I
just want to enjoy, stay healthy
.
You know I I just do things youwant to do.
You know, uh, my wife loves thesailboat.
She left yesterday.
She's going three weeks.
She's in the fiji islands.
You know I, yeah, I mean that'swhat she likes to do.
You know she makes fun of me.
I like to go to new york andhang out with my buddy, paulie.
You know I'm just saying.
(01:07:31):
But you know I volunteer inhigh school now and you know I
just try to you do whatever Ican to help.
You know, maybe help change akid's life.
You know I think I have a lotto offer In a few weeks I go to
Vegas.
I work for a sports agent at hiscamp.
A European camp Guy's trying togo overseas.
I do that.
You know I just try to stay inthe game.
(01:07:53):
You know I go to the gym.
You just got to keep on moving.
You know you got to keep onmoving.
Absolutely, you know that'swhat it's about.
You know, it's not like we usedto be, you know.
Speaker 1 (01:08:04):
Well, I want to tell
everybody that I recommend this
book.
There's a lot of things in hereand I don't talk about books
because that's.
I recommend that you get it onamazon or whatever.
Bob has it out there, becauseit's, it's really good and it
has you know it's it's just gotthe right amount of pictures in
(01:08:26):
here.
Um, because some some of thebooks and I've read all my
guests I read the books becauseit's important.
You can't uh, sit here and belike a talking head, like we see
on on the border, and talk.
They've had no experience, youknow, about ever been to the
(01:08:48):
border.
They were the secretarywhatever secretary of this for
six months, appointed, appointedby somebody, and they're not
experts and I see this on allthe major media.
And I wanted to bring BobStarkman here today because he
(01:09:10):
is an expert.
He's lived the life, hecontinues to cherish his friends
and you're getting real stories, okay, from all the guests that
have been on this program.
So again, bob, I want to thankyou for coming on, wish you the
best always and I'll try to getup to Broward to attend one of
(01:09:35):
these meetings.
Speaker 2 (01:09:35):
You ain't going
nowhere.
You'll be taking the train upthere.
You're too lazy you won't drive.
You'll take the train I got totake the train.
Speaker 1 (01:09:42):
Yeah, I got to take
Brightline, so you can pick me
up and bring me in incognito andthat I'd like to see a lot of
the people.
Thank you very much for comingon, Bob.
I appreciate it.
Speaker 2 (01:09:54):
I appreciate it.
Thanks for having me guys.
Speaker 1 (01:09:55):
Okay, brother, Talk
to you soon.
Speaker 2 (01:09:57):
See you.