September 25, 2024 • 89 mins
In this episode we learn how someone with aspirations of becoming a high school history teacher from Mesquite, Texas ended up chasing drug smugglers in the skies over the U.S.-Mexico border? Veteran federal agent Ken Cates shares his extraordinary journey from aspiring educator to DEA and ATF operative, revealing the twists of fate that led him to a distinguished career in law enforcement. Ken's compelling stories offer a ground-level look at the unique challenges of working the southwestern border, and how the Vietnam Veterans Readjustment Act program unexpectedly set him on this path.
Ken pulls back the curtain on high-stakes undercover operations and the crucial role of informants in generating cases, and the infiltration of dangerous groups like the Aryan Nation. We delve into the camaraderie among agents, their collaboration with the LAPD Intel Unit, and the dramatic raids that defined a thrilling era of law enforcement. You'll hear firsthand accounts of innovative sting operations in South Central LA, punctuated by the wild nature of the job during those intense years.
Join us as we recount the chaotic yet humorous start to the transition from the ATF to Customs, leading into the high-octane world of air smuggling operations. Listen to tales of chasing drug-smuggling aircraft with primitive yet effective methods and intense aerial pursuits that characterized customs enforcement along the border. From the spontaneous assignments to the adrenaline-pumping chases, this episode provides a vivid and captivating glimpse into the life of a federal agent patrolling the skies.
Produced by: Citrustream, LLC
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Today we're going to have another edition of Justice
Then Justice Now.
Today's guest is Ken Cates.
Ken is a career federal agent,law enforcement expert.
He has worked everythingundercover.
He's worked for a coupleagencies and he rose to the
(00:23):
ranks of being an executive withthe various agencies and the
special agent in charge onwhat's happening today with the
border in Arizona area and heshould provide real insight into
this.
This is an individual thatlives in the southwest border
(00:44):
region.
He knows the problems, he knowsthe solutions.
He's not somebody that's atalking head on mass media that
has either never been there orbeen appointed to those
positions politically.
So this is like I said.
This show is the real deal.
It has the entire criminaljustice spectrum for the
(01:09):
listener.
I am going to talk about a bookhe wrote.
Everything Changed.
It is an account.
It's a fictional account ofborder life and what it is to be
an agent there and what it isto be an agent there.
I think that this should behanded out to Homeland Security
(01:30):
and DOJ so that they understandthe whole process that has been
controversial for the lastcouple of years there.
It's my pleasure to speak withKen now.
Ken, thank you for getting upearly this morning on East Coast
time, and it's a pleasure totalk to you today.
Speaker 2 (01:51):
Well, thanks very much.
It's my pleasure to be here,not that early.
It's only an hour.
We only have a little hourdifference.
I live right outside Dallas,texas, and the only really thing
I'm missing this morning is mygolf game.
So you are a special.
It's a special event for me todo that.
Speaker 1 (02:09):
Yes, yeah, I was.
I watched the.
I'm not a golfer.
I tried to hit a golf ball likea baseball my whole life, so I
wasn't very successful.
But I did enjoy the PGAChampionship with the former
Olympic champion who, longoverdue, won one of the majors
(02:29):
and that, and you know, I likefollowing it and I think it's a
great sport, you know, to watchas a spectator.
You know, especially the 19thhole.
I think that's a tradition.
My father was a golfer and Iused to say to him you know he
would, he would uh.
Grown up in Massachusetts hewould get up early in the
(02:52):
morning, finish his work bythree o'clock and hit the links
and then hit the uh.
After he played nine holes he'dsit at the 19th hole and watch
uh Walter Cronkite on TV, or 12o'clock high or shows like that.
So anyway, thank you very muchfor coming on.
(03:12):
If you could, if you could, onthe first segment, I'd like to
talk about what gets youinterested in law enforcement
where you grew up, and just tostart out with that, I think,
would be the best thing.
Speaker 2 (03:27):
Well, let's see, it's kind of a funny story, I guess.
Um, because I never wasinterested in law enforcement.
I didn't have the.
I really didn't have theslightest inkling about law
enforcement.
I expected uh.
Initially I thought I'd be uh,uh, try to be an attorney and
then discovered that was justtoo hard and a little boring, I
(03:52):
thought.
With all due respect, but Igrew up in Mesquite, texas,
right outside of Dallas.
It was a little country town atthat time that was known for
the rodeo.
So you know a bit of a countryguy, I guess you'd say certainly
(04:16):
suburban.
But I got into law enforcementon a fluke because I'd started
college.
It turned out to be veryexpensive and ultimately Uncle
Sam came calling.
I went into the Army for twoyears and, long story short,
(04:37):
when I finally got back out ofthe service and was finishing up
my college degree, really withan expectation that I'd wind up
being a high school historyteacher, at this point, my
mother called me and said sheasked me if I was in trouble or
(04:59):
you know, essentially, what haveyou done?
I said I have no idea whatyou're talking about, mom.
She said well, some federalagent is calling here trying to
reach you.
And I said gosh, I don't have aclue what you're talking about.
In fact, I didn't even exceptwatching the FBI on TV.
I didn't know anything aboutthe feds and anyway, ultimately
(05:22):
I called the guy and it turnedout he was a recruiter and said
well, you know what you need tocome down for an interview.
I said an interview about what?
Why are you calling me?
And the guy said, well, didn'tyou apply for a job here?
And I said not that I know of.
And at any rate he said, well,oh, I see you're a VRA guy,
(05:46):
which was a program that thegovernment had at the time, the
Vietnam Veterans Readjustment.
Speaker 1 (05:50):
Act.
Speaker 2 (05:53):
And he said well, you must have signed up for this
program.
I said, mister, when I wastrying to get out of the Army I
signed anything.
They put in front of me Iwanted to get out.
They put in front of me Iwanted to get out.
And anyway, I went down andinterviewed and got offered a
job in the regional intelligenceunit for DEA and then after
(06:14):
about a year ATF offered me ajob as an agent.
The rest is history.
So it was kind of a flukereally Turned out.
It paid a little more thanteaching high school history, so
it was kind of a fluke reallyTurned out.
Speaker 1 (06:26):
It paid a little more than teaching high school
history, yeah, but a little moredangerous.
But today, being a teacher insome of the inner city schools,
I don't know which is moredangerous.
You know, unfortunately, thoseare the times I agree.
Yeah, so tell me about when youwent to ATF.
What was that like and when wasthat?
Speaker 2 (06:48):
Well, let's see.
I guess I started with ATFabout the end of 74.
I'm kind of an old guy, I thinkI finally got on in about early
75.
About early 75.
And I got hired in Dallas andthen, ultimately, I went to
(07:10):
Little Rock as my first officeand I'd always wanted to travel,
I'd always wanted to see thecountry, and so I decided to
wanted to see the country and soI decided that I would give
(07:30):
California a try.
And after about a year, yearand a half in Little Rock, which
was a fun time but perhaps notas actionable, I guess, as I
thought it might be Then Itransferred out to California
and ended up working inSacramento and then down in Los
(07:55):
Angeles, which is where I spentthe majority of my time as an
ATF agent, working out of thedowntown LA office agent working
out of the downtown LA office.
Speaker 1 (08:07):
We've talked before and we have mutual people that
we know because I was in LosAngeles in the mid 80s, also
with the marshal service, sothere was a lot of it's a very
small law enforcement worldespecially probably bigger now
with a lot more agents than wehad, but when you only had like
2,500 nationwide for each agency, you pretty much crossed paths
(08:31):
with a lot of people in that.
So tell me about LA what was itlike working?
What kind of cases did you workand that.
Speaker 2 (08:41):
Well, you're right, we certainly do have some mutual
acquaintances.
In fact, you know, if you'vebeen in the feds you know that
that's not atypical A guy mightstart out in the marshal service
and wind up in ATF or gosh.
I've had guys that were in theFBI and wound up in customs with
(09:02):
us.
But uh, when I got to LA, uh, Igot uh initially posted to, uh,
uh, I guess the most uh, atleast in our view, the most
action oriented office.
It was called the downtown LAMetro group and uh, we had every
bad part of of that.
(09:22):
You can imagine.
Uh, south central watch,compton rampart, yes, yeah, uh,
you know, hollywood west,hollywood, uh.
So we, we had the, we had theinner city and, uh, we were
primarily a gun enforcementgroup.
So we were out looking forviolent criminals that were
(09:47):
creating nefarious deeds usingfirearms and we did a lot of
gang work.
We were in what wasaffectionately known then as the
ghetto just about every day.
We also supported andparticipated with the arson
group, the downtown la arsongroup, so we had a lot of fires
(10:11):
that we worked.
I I joined the atf nationalresponse team while I was in los
angeles so that that sort ofaided my travel and give me a
little break from being down inthe ghetto, so to speak.
We could get out and go to abombing or a fire and work those
incidents forensically.
But actually I've always saidthat my time in Los Angeles in
(10:37):
the LA Metro group probably someof the funnest time that I ever
had as an agent.
We worked a lot of undercoverin those days.
You wouldn't believe it, but aTexas cowboy looking guy in fact
that was an undercover name Iused a lot was Cowboy Texas
cowboy looking guy and one of myclosest friends and longest
(11:00):
partners, a little Italian guy.
We were down in the ghettoworking stings and buying,
buying guns from gangsters.
Um, you know, in reflectionseemed like almost every week.
So uh, it was.
It was quite a diversity ofwork out on the streets running
(11:21):
with LAPD, running with the gangunits, the sheriff's department
crash units, and then of course, you know, come Monday you
might have to put on a suit andbe in court.
I always said that being an ATFagent back in those days was
about the most challenging.
I thought that you couldchallenging job you could have
(11:43):
as a fed, because being an ATFagent AJ was fairly close to
being a true street cop.
But at the same time you might,as I said, you might wind up on
an arson scene the next week,you might wind up in court, you
(12:06):
know, the following week andthen, of course, you had to take
care of all your own internalpaperwork.
The ATF system at that time wasa lot simpler than it is today,
I'm sure you know.
We had to account for all ourown undercover money, so we were
our own accountants.
We did a little bit ofeverything back in those days
(12:27):
and we did it with some of thegreatest guys I ever met some of
the funniest, most dedicated,hardworking, courageous group of
guys, and not just in ATF.
We worked closely with SecretService, who were in the office
right next door to us.
We worked with the customs guysout of Terminal Island at the
(12:47):
time and certainly we workedwith LAPD almost constantly.
So great cast of characters inour own office and in those
different agencies and, wow, itwas a really.
I always say it was thegreatest time in the world to be
an 1811, a special agent,because we had just enough
(13:09):
technology and resources to beout ahead of the crooks.
But regulations and ruleshadn't really caught up with us
at that time.
Speaker 1 (13:18):
Yeah, I always tell people that our travel program
was having GTRs in your pocketand if you had to do a
controlled delivery or you hadto go after a fugitive, you just
walked up to the airlinecounter, filled it out and got
on the plane.
Everybody was like, well,didn't you have to get approval
for that?
I said the approval was thatyou were going to go out and
(13:40):
make an arrest.
You know, and like LA, likesome of the watering holes, like
Gorky's and Emmylou's downtownthat we went to, and you know
the big movie that was out thenwas Live and Die in LA with
Secret Service and put them onthe map for Petrovich and for
(14:02):
the counterfeiting and the checkforging and all the stuff which
you know.
And I went later to work atSecret Service as a consultant
on their assets seizure andfinancial investigation.
So it was, like you said, atotally different world and the
(14:23):
many friends that we'veaccumulated over the years are
from different jobs.
I always said that I stayedwith an agency until they
restarted my five-yearbackground, said that I stayed
with an agency until theyrestarted my five-year
background so they wouldn'tcatch up with me and I could
retire.
You know what?
Speaker 2 (14:39):
I mean Well, you can't hit a moving target.
That's what I always said.
That's a good point, okay, soyou were an ATF from what years?
In Los Angeles?
Let's see, in LA, I was therefrom 80 to 86, I think it was.
Speaker 1 (14:54):
Okay, yeah.
I was there 83, 84, and part of85.
Yeah, yeah, it was a good timeA little different.
Speaker 2 (15:04):
Yeah, it was a great time.
We were there during theOlympics.
You know the Olympics was a bigdeal at the time, you know.
Thankfully nothing happened.
It ended up being a boringassignment.
Were you on the task force forthat?
Yeah, we all were.
Atf brought in a bunch of guysfrom all over the country and we
(15:24):
actually were just doingpresence patrolling.
I guess during all that we weredriving around from venue to
venue.
In fact that was one of thebiggest investigations that ever
happened in ATF.
Los Angeles then was because onone boring evening an unnamed
agent and again this shows youhow far back technology goes
(15:46):
Took his two-way radio andJohnny Paycheck's take this job
and shove.
It was playing over the AMradio at the time, so he keyed
the mic and broadcast all overthe LA basin and the task force
frequency Take this Job andShove it.
And I think our office, ourbosses, had about a three-week
(16:08):
investigation trying to identifywho that culprit was.
Speaker 1 (16:11):
Home in on it, home in on it.
I'm dating culprit was Home inon it, home in on it.
I'm dating myself too Home inon it, and that, yeah, when I
was out there during theOlympics two weeks before, I had
a case in Oxnard and it was afugitive who had assumed the
identity of a dead person I'mgoing to promote my book a
little.
But we went up there and he hadblown up two police cars in
(16:36):
Spokane and the courthouse andATF was involved and the Bureau
of course, because it wasterrorism, of course they got to
get in there, the FBI listeners.
I don't mean to offend you, butyou know.
But anyway, I was involved inthat and you know, like you said
, with that and kidding around,seriously, you had some very
(16:58):
serious cases and I'd like youto talk about the one that
involved the chief in LAPD.
I think that's a tremendousstory.
Speaker 2 (17:08):
Well, again, I think, upon reflection, I think that
was another quasi-famous agent'scase.
It was a young agent at thetime named Bill Queen, but he
started that case and itinvolved the Aryan Nation, which
was prominent at the time, andNation which was prominent at
(17:33):
the time, and it ended up beingan undercover case and worked
with LAPD on it.
But the LAPD had acontroversial unit back then
called the Intel Unit I think ithad another name, but it was
essentially an intelligencefunction but later got banned, I
(17:53):
believe, but we won't get intothat.
Speaker 1 (17:55):
I know they're chalking it up.
Speaker 2 (17:58):
Yeah, so that particular case.
A bunch of Aryan Nationskinhead types were interested
in acquiring a bunch of fullyautomatic weapons and were
involved in convertingsemi-automatics to automatics.
So our office there, the MetroGun Group, got involved in that
(18:22):
case.
Our agent worked undercover.
Ultimately there were somethreats made against Darrell
Gates, the chief of LAPD at thetime.
And so we worked that case andin those days an investigative
group would be about eight or 10agents and it was a pretty
(18:46):
tight-knit group.
So if one guy was out on a case, the whole group was out.
We tried to have a standingrule back in those days that you
know you run the deal, the dealdoesn't run you, and the
standing rule was we don't wantto have any deals that go on
Friday night, saturday night orSunday night, so try to keep
(19:09):
your deals during the work week.
Speaker 1 (19:10):
Federal Friday.
It didn't always make thathappen.
Speaker 2 (19:13):
But we tried and, at any rate, we ended up taking
down that group of guys, gettinga warrant, raiding them.
Lapd and some of theirsignificant players came out
there.
We took all those guys intocustody and prosecuted them.
And then Darryl Gates came overand, uh, you know, gave us a
big pat on the back and we allgot our picture taken with the,
(19:36):
with daryl the, you know, theinventor of the swat concept,
and, and, uh, that picturefloats around from time to time.
What's that?
Speaker 1 (19:44):
what was that tank?
There was a name for the.
Remember the tank that they gotto demolish houses.
Speaker 2 (19:50):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, that was where they put the big
long spear on the front of themRight.
Like a Brinks armored car truck.
Speaker 1 (20:02):
They were selling them up at the police academy.
We would go up there for theclam chowder on Fridays and to
see Heather Locklear swim in thepool for TJ Hooker.
Remember those days.
Speaker 2 (20:14):
Yeah, yeah, oh sure, yeah, we used to.
You know most law enforcementagencies and certainly ATF.
Back then they gave us I thinkthey gave us three hours of paid
time a week to work out, sothat was our go-to spot.
We'd go up to the LAPD Academy.
Speaker 1 (20:32):
It's a little slow with me, but the name of it was
RAM.
That was what they called itRAM.
Go ahead.
I'm sorry.
I have this useless informationthat goes into my brain the
closer I get to 70.
Speaker 2 (20:45):
So I'm going to say it yeah, believe me, I'm living
that.
But yeah, we'd go up there tothe LAPD Academy and run on the
track and, you know, eat in thecheap cafeteria and you know,
try to get gun deals out of thegun store that was up there.
And then you know, we, as Isaid, we worked in the ghetto
(21:06):
constantly.
We were on many raids with LAPDwhere you know they ran, they
ran that Ram through the side ofa house and about pulled down a
you know some kind of a crackhouse or something down there.
Pretty, it was wild timesreally.
I mean I I look back on it Ithink my gosh, I don't know how
we didn't get.
You know, we didn't get reallyhurt down there because we were,
(21:29):
we were really winging it manytimes.
Speaker 1 (21:34):
Running and gun, and that's exactly what that era was
right there, especially in thatcity yeah, we, well, we had a
great uh.
Speaker 2 (21:42):
I'll tell you.
You know, I think all uh, allreally productive cops will tell
you that what makes a greatinvestigator is having great
informants.
And and then we just happen tohave about the best informant uh
that we ever had down there.
Uh, in fact, I, you know, Ihate to even call him an
informant he was uh, uh, youknow, he was a cooperating
(22:03):
individual and uh, uh, he, thatguy could generate more gun
cases down there.
Uh, he was uh at the time, ofcourse, we were young guys.
I think he was about 65.
We called him Old Nicky.
You know, we thought Old Nickywas old.
Sorry, we got an Amber Alert orsomething coming up here.
Speaker 1 (22:22):
Oh okay, that's important.
What happens when I hear thatnoise?
I have one of those sugarmonitors and it goes off.
It went off yesterday on myphone and everybody's like
what's that?
I said I shouldn't have hadthat martini at lunch.
No, I'm kidding with you, butit does go off Go ahead.
(22:44):
I'm sorry.
Speaker 2 (22:48):
But that's really what made the.
We did one of the very first.
My partner Jimmy and I did oneof the very first headquarters
monitored special projects downthere.
So we came up with this conceptof, instead of having a
storefront kind of sting wherewe would buy guns, we had a
(23:09):
mobile state.
So we first used a old Nikki'svan and then we got our own
undercover van and we we made acircuit all through South
Central and and every every daywe would have different stops
and we would roll up in our van.
My partner Jim and I and and, ofcourse, our LA Metro cover
(23:32):
teams would be around and and uh, we would just meet these
gangsters on the street and buystolen guns and uh, occasionally
we'd buy dope from them, youknow, whatever it took, and and
uh, really sit on the streetcorner and uh, smoke a cool
cigarette and, you know, drink acouple of beers and uh and uh,
(23:53):
you know, talk them right intoprison.
So it was a wild, wild andcrazy time down there then and
it was all really based on theteamwork that we did and based
on having great informants andbegrudgingly because back in the
day we would never haveadmitted this, but begrudgingly
we had some supervisors thatgave us enough rope to either
(24:17):
hang ourself or make us prettygood agents.
Luckily, we're still breathing.
Speaker 1 (24:22):
Trial by fire.
Right, that's exactly what itwas.
You were there, so let's go tofollow you with ATF and where
you moved to after that.
Speaker 2 (24:35):
You know from having lived in LA that even in the 80s
traffic every day was just anightmare.
It was just unbelievable.
I lived down in HuntingtonBeach, which from my driveway to
my parking spot in the downtownfederal building was about 30
miles, and that was typically anhour, 15 to an hour to two
(24:59):
hours on the road one way.
So that also actuallyfacilitated a lot of undercover
work because we knew we weregoing to be stuck in traffic.
So we might as well just stayat work and you know work, uh,
work down the ghetto till eight,nine o'clock at night and then
drive home with you know lesstraffic, but I had on my desk.
Speaker 1 (25:17):
I had on my desk a sign and it said we arrest
fugitives by appointment onlybecause it was the same thing.
We had to know the guy wasthere because the the chief
deputy, who was a former Marine,would come in and say you got a
rest today.
Yeah, how sure are you?
On a scale of one to 10?
(25:37):
, well, I always learn 50%chance, just so 51.
So we would go out and do it,but I didn't mean to cut you off
.
Go ahead, tell me about it.
Speaker 2 (25:46):
No, no, no, that's exactly the way it was.
You know it was just.
The commute was a struggle.
So after five or six years ofthat, I really I loved ATF.
I loved being an ATF agent.
I was relatively successful, Iguess, and so I kept just trying
to get transferred to one ofthe outlying offices closer to
(26:09):
my house, because there were acouple of other outlying ATF
offices in Long Beach and downin Santa Ana that were 30
minutes on surface streets.
But I think I tried.
I submitted a memo to transferto one of those offices.
I think my record was 24 timesbecause I would submit it once a
(26:30):
quarter, 24 times, 24 times,because I would submit it once a
quarter, 24 times to just leavedowntown, leave the Metro Gun
Group and just go to a littleslower paced office.
And so ultimately my my specialagent in charge, then after
about the 20.
One time I got my memo back andhe had handwritten on it.
Your repeated requests fortransfer are noted.
(26:54):
They are not in the staffingpattern at this time and you can
expect to remain in the LAMetro Gun Group for a long, long
time.
You're kidding me?
That's a true story.
So I thought, golly, maybe it'stime to do something else.
(27:15):
So, uh, so about the in 86, um,to kind of digress, customs, up
until the 84, 85, 86, in thatarea customs agents were
(27:38):
essentially precluded fromworking narcotics cases because
of the DEA, the creation of DEAin the 70s, and a lot of customs
agents had been merged into DEAback then, I think in 72.
And so customs worked.
You know, they worked generalsmuggling and a lot of
commercial import fraud andthings like that.
I mean they certainly earnedtheir pay but they didn't really
(28:01):
work narcotics.
But by the mid 80s the war ondrugs was really going on and
dope smuggling was so prevalent,particularly down at the US
borders, at all the ports ofentry, and the process at that
time was that when the uniformedcustoms inspectors and customs
(28:26):
officers would catch a load ofdope in a truck or a car or what
have you, they had to call aDEA agent to come down and take
the case and take it to.
And customs officers would catcha load of dope in a truck or a
car or what have you, they hadto call a DEA agent to come down
and take the case and take itto federal court and DEA just
got overwhelmed.
Those were called port callcases.
Dea had gotten overwhelmed andrecognized that they needed some
help.
And customs got at that timecross-designated Title 21
(28:50):
authority to work narcoticsdomestically.
And so Customs put on a hugehiring to take on that new
program that they had, thatexpanded narcotics program.
So man Customs in the late 80sCustoms was hiring guys from DEA
and ATF and Secret Service, Imean just about everywhere FBI
(29:12):
guys.
And so to go back even furtherback in, oh my gosh, I think it
was around 78 or so in ATFRonald Reagan, who was not an
ATF fan when he got electedpresident had committed to
(29:33):
abolish the Bureau of Alcohol,tobacco and Fire.
Speaker 1 (29:34):
You're going to talk about the RIF notices right
Right.
Speaker 2 (29:36):
Reduction of course.
Yeah, we had all gotten RIFnotices back then and so a lot
of guys did what ATF managementcalled jump ship.
A lot of those guys that got alot of agents back then in the
70s went over.
They went to Secret Service andother places but seemed like
(29:57):
predominantly a lot of guys wentto customs as agents.
So by the 80s when I was told Iwas going to be in downtown LA
for a long, long time, a lot ofthose xatf guys had moved into
customs management positions.
So from those and as you pointout, you know a lot, most of
your friends are guys that youworked with.
(30:19):
So still knowing some of thoseguys and knowing that customs
was hiring, I kind of put outsome feelers and uh and and got
um, you know, got some positivefeedback about just transferring
over to customs there in LA.
But then they also pointed outthat, boy, they were really
(30:40):
hiring down in Texas, which hasa huge Mexican border, and if I
ever wanted to go back home Imight ought to consider that.
So, long story short, I endedup applying.
I actually went back to atf andsaid, well, look, these guys
offered me a job and and I'mthinking about going, unless you
(31:01):
think there's a possibilitythat I can get uh you know, out
of la and uh.
And ultimately they said, yeah,if I were you I would take that
job.
So so I did I, I, uh, Itransferred to customs.
I was lucky enough to getpicked up, uh, as a customs
agent down in san antonio, downsan antonio, texas.
(31:23):
So that was my uh, that was my,my impetus to leave atf, to
leave my longtime friends.
I mean I had about 12, a littleover 12 total years with ATF
when I left 12 or 13.
It was really all I knew and,despite having worked a couple
(31:44):
of cases with customs out in LosAngeles, boy, I really knew
nothing about customs.
But you know, it was anopportunity to get back home, be
closer to my parents my parentswere getting elderly then and
get my kids out of LA at thetime.
So really, once again, sort offate just intervened and I
(32:04):
pulled the trigger on it and gottransferred down to San Antonio
and the whole world of mothercustoms opened up to me there.
Speaker 1 (32:13):
What year was this?
Speaker 2 (32:17):
So that was the fall of 86 when I left LA.
I think it was 80.
I'm pretty sure it was 86.
Speaker 1 (32:24):
This was the Von Rob era, when they really started
beefing up enforcement and allthat.
I'm anxious to talk to youabout when he closed the border,
which is legendary.
Speaker 2 (32:37):
Yeah, commissioner Van Rob was the commissioner
then.
Speaker 1 (32:40):
Yeah, so you went to San Antonio.
Speaker 2 (32:45):
I did.
I went to San Antonio.
I ended up.
At the time I had a pilot'slicense, and now I have my
attack dog barking on the otherend of the house.
Speaker 1 (32:59):
It's lunchtime, that's why Did you feed him.
Speaker 2 (33:03):
Probably means my wife has an Amazon package being
delivered somewhere.
So I had a pilot's licenseAgain.
Again, it was kind of a funnystory.
I, I, I reported for work, youknow, on a monday morning and
and, uh, atf, atf, that I justleft was was pretty, you know,
(33:24):
it was pretty structured.
I mean, we were, you know, wewere accountable to our bosses
and and, and we were, you know,we were accountable to our
bosses and and, uh, they, we hada, we had a lot of bosses that
had that idea that, uh, to quoteone of my partners, that that
agents ought to be all in theirplaces with bright, shining
faces.
You know, by 8 30 you should bein the office, that kind of
(33:44):
stuff.
We, we, believe me, we haveplenty of workarounds for that.
But when I got to customs thefirst day, I showed up and there
were just a couple of the SACsecretary and the admin officer
were there.
I said, hey, I'm the new agent,I'm here to report, and they
(34:05):
said, oh yeah, no one's heretoday, you're going to have to
come back tomorrow.
Oh my gosh, I said no, no, noone's here today, you're going
to have to come back tomorrow.
Oh my gosh, I said no, no, no,I can't come back tomorrow.
You know, I mean, I gotchildren, I need to get, you
know, my insurance transferredover and get my pay started.
And they went, yeah, no,they're all at the range and
then they're having a barbecueout there and so no one will be
(34:27):
here until tomorrow.
So you just got to come backtomorrow.
So, uh, I ultimately did talkhim into letting me sign on, but
but essentially, I came back onTuesday and, uh, um, walked
into the SAC office down in SanAntonio, which was a small
office that was originally abouteight or nine agents and at
(34:48):
that time was ballooning toabout 20.
And so there were not enoughdesks, not enough cars, you name
it.
So I walk in on the second day,on Tuesday, and ASAC met me,
the assistant special agent incharge, and he said oh, yeah,
yeah, the SAC told me you werecoming.
What group are you going to bein?
I said, man, I don't know whatgroups do you have?
(35:12):
You know, I knew nothing aboutcustoms.
And so the ASAC said well, whatare your hobbies?
What are your hobbies?
And I said, well, I'm a.
I'm a big runner.
I ran a pretty big runner and Igolf a little bit and I, I, I
got a pilot's license.
Oh, you got a pilot's license.
Oh, you're in the air smugglinggroup.
That's how management was backthen.
(35:39):
They were over at a big orangehangar over at the San Antonio
airport.
They're located with thecustoms air guys over there.
I had actually already beenover there and I said, yeah, I
know where that is.
They said, well, just go overthere.
They got an acting supervisorover there to just tell him
you're assigned to his group andI don't want to bore you.
(36:00):
But upon reflection I said,okay, well, all right, great.
Well, how am I going to getover there?
He said, well, I don't know.
I said, well, I need a car.
Speaker 1 (36:09):
A jeep ride Come.
Well, I don't know.
I said, well, I need a carG-Ride.
Speaker 2 (36:10):
Come on, where's my G-Ride?
He said, oh, we don't have anycars, we're going to get some.
But we'll get you a car.
Just see the lady out front.
She'll lease you a car for awhile and then we'll figure
something out.
I said, okay.
I said well how about equipment?
He said well, like what I saidwell how about like a gun?
Yeah, yeah, I said how aboutlike a gun?
(36:31):
And the guy looked at me.
He said a gun.
He said don't you have your owngun, texas?
Yes, I said I don't have a gun.
He said you came from ATF.
You don't have your own pistol.
I said no.
I said in ATF you got to carrya government gun.
So I don't even.
I got a deer rifle and ashotgun but I don't own a pistol
(36:53):
.
So he reached down in one ofthose big old, you know mahogany
government desks that he satbehind you know big, huge
executive desk and pulled openthis big file cabinet and there
was about 20 pistols of everykind of make and model thrown in
there, automatics and revolvers.
And he said, hey, just grab oneof these and pick one out and
(37:15):
then tell the property guy toput it on your paperwork when
you think about it.
So I picked out a littlefive-shot stainless steel Smith
which in ATF you had to die orretire.
Yeah, model 60, cheap special.
Somebody had to die or retireto get that gun in APF.
So I got a little cheap specialand I said okay.
(37:37):
Then I said well, how aboutsome ID?
He said you'll get that whenyou go to customs agent school.
I said well, when's that goingto be?
He said it'll probably be.
That could be a year or longerbecause we got a bunch of new
hires that are going to thoseacademy classes now.
So I gave him the pistol back.
(37:58):
I said well then I probablywon't need this pistol if I
don't have any ID, you know.
So he said okay, wait a minute.
And he goes in the little frontoffice, comes back with a, with
a customs, a customs letterheadand it said typed on it was to
whom it may concern, this willcertify that kenneth gates is a
special agent with us customs,authorized to make arrests and
(38:18):
carry firearms, signed uh,acting special agent in charge.
And then he gave me a bluegovernment credit card and that
was the id that I carried for my, like my first year in custody.
Speaker 1 (38:31):
He didn't say a little note on the side we don't
need no stinking badges, right?
Speaker 2 (38:37):
No, no, you know.
Now, within within a couple ofmonths, they did send me a
temporary badge from from aGlencoe, from Plessy and and a
little laminated ID card.
But I carried that letterheadman.
I got on airplanes with thatand a blue government credit
(39:00):
card more than once in my firstyear.
Speaker 1 (39:04):
The good old days.
Speaker 2 (39:05):
It was very organized .
I said what about a vest?
I said I need a vest.
He said a bulletproof vest.
He said I need a vest.
He said a bulletproof vest.
He said we don't have any ofthat stuff in customs.
He said I don't know about allyou transferee guys, but we
don't have any of that stuff incustoms.
And I mean that's how primitiveit was in 86 when I came to
customs, wow.
So once again, as I say, it wasthe greatest time to be an
(39:29):
agent because they basicallysaid here you go, here's your
government steed and a gun, goforth and do good stuff and just
figure it out.
And we did.
We went out and man Customs hadsome incredible they were
called air officers at the timeand and customs pilots, who were
(39:50):
all law enforcement guys.
Speaker 1 (39:52):
Right.
Speaker 2 (39:52):
And man, we would just get in airplanes and fly
around and follow, followairplanes that were coming
across the border and landbehind them and, you know, fly
out to some remote desert stripand eat good Mexican enchiladas
in West Texas for lunch.
You know, it was just a wild,wild time and I guess it was
(40:15):
sort of the closing days of airsmuggling, because that was
really just before the cartelssort of organized and put all
the independent smugglers out ofbusiness.
Back in those days you couldjust fly across the border to
some Mexican town, you know, buy500 pounds of weed and fly it
back in and, you know, withineight or 10 years the cartels
(40:39):
organized all that and you couldfly to Mexico with a plane, but
you probably weren't flyingback out.
Speaker 1 (40:45):
So what did you do with the?
And just for a personal note,we had a big-time air smuggler
on yesterday who got out on acompassion release and quite a
character from the Keys.
So you got seven life sentencesfor that.
What's his name?
(41:06):
Dickie Lynn?
Yeah, and he was on and I'mgoing to have on after you one
of the smugglers from the late70s.
He also received substantialsentences.
So this should be good, and Inever was in an air group like
(41:28):
that.
I mean, I was in airportresponse, which was totally
different.
Uh, with that and uh it's.
I love hearing uh smugglingstories because I don't think
the general public, uh, they'reso used.
This is refreshing for me tohear because a lot of the
(41:57):
complaints that we had as agentsand as a first line supervisor,
like I was, is we would getmanagers that hadn't lived a
life, that had been done a tourin headquarters.
You know the deal.
And then they come back andthey're an ASAC or a DSAC.
But go ahead, tell me whathappened with your smuggling
then when you went there in SanAntonio.
Speaker 2 (42:18):
Well, again, it was still pretty primitive Customs
and some of this predates me soI'm kind of giving you some
secondhand background and someof this predates me.
So I'm kind of giving you somesecondhand background.
But, as I said earlier, customsSpecial Agents didn't work
narcotics up until the late 80s,you know, just by statutory
(42:41):
limitation for Title 21,.
You know that all belonged toDEA agents.
But the one program in Customsthat continued to work narcotics
was the customs air program.
So they had customs airofficers and customs pilots who
were just as much an agent asany agent you ever met, in fact
(43:02):
even more so, had flown up anddown the southwest border from
all the way from Brownsville tobasically to San Diego and and
tracked drug smuggling airplanes.
They worked cases, they workedinformants.
You know I think they had aninformant in every little
(43:23):
fixed-base private airport upand down the Mexican border.
So those guys were very, very,very prolific, even as that
program evolved and theyrestructured and they ended up
with air interdiction officers.
Those guys were out there everyday patrolling and flying
(43:43):
around and developinginformation and then doing
interdiction work when planeswould bust the border and radar
would pick them up.
Those were the guys thatlaunched in customs aircraft and
customs helicopters, you know,to land right behind a dope
(44:03):
smuggling scheme and take thosepeople into custody.
So that was the environmentthat we kind of fell into.
Uh, uh, those guys wereveterans and knew what they were
doing, and and uh, uh, therewas a little friction because,
uh, the agency, as I said,customs was evolving and and uh
and agents really became uh,preeminent in in the prosecution
(44:27):
of those kinds of cases, butvery, very common that we would
be in the office.
And Customs had its own networkof feeds from every FAA radar
all over the country.
And then in the 80s they put upa series of aerostats, those
(44:51):
big balloons up and down theborder, to finally cover places
that didn't even have FFA radarcoverage.
A typical smuggling deal was asmall aircraft, might be a
(45:13):
single engine, might be a twinengine.
An independent smuggler wouldfly into gosh, you name it
Monterey or Piedras, negras orwherever, take on a load of weed
Typically I think it was weedsmuggling but might take on
cocaine at the time and then, uh, come back across the border.
(45:33):
Of course they would turn offtheir aviation electronics, they
would turn off theirtransponders, fly really low and
then pop up, turn their, turntheir uh transponders back on
and then you know, land inwichita falls or Lubbock or or
wherever the you know that theywere based out of and and the
(45:54):
customs communications and radarguys, our radar specialists.
They were just constantlyscanning those radar screens
looking for those unidentifiedtargets and and they would
launch customs aircraft.
You'd get, you'd get a call andit would be.
It would be like a fire alarmwent off.
The air crews would run to theairplanes or we had some old
(46:17):
Army surplus Mike Model Hueyhelicopters.
That was even before theBlackhawks came in.
But you would run out there andjump in an aircraft with the
customs pilots and we would gochasing after those airplanes
and land behind them in fieldsor on county roads and um and
jump out.
And you know, sometimes youcaught dope and sometimes you
(46:40):
didn't.
You know just a, I guess ahumorous story.
I was sitting in the office insan antonio and one of those
alerts came from the, thecustoms radar guys, and the
pilots came running into oursquad bay and said come on, we
got, we got a, we got a hottarget coming across the border
from del rio.
So, man, I ran out and wejumped in a customs king air,
(47:05):
two pilots and myself and uh, atthe time I think I had a six
inch smith model 66, uh 357revolver with me.
That was it, and a blue nyloncustoms raid jacket.
That was.
That was a sum total of ourequipment.
So we jumped in this customsairplane and took off and all of
(47:27):
a sudden, of course they're on,the pilots, are talking to the
radar guys and and all of asudden the of course they're on
the pilots or talking to theradar guys, and all of a sudden
the transponder kicks on.
You know every kind of trappingof a smuggling deal and they
vector in behind.
Today we're going to have another edition of Justice
Then Justice Now.
Today's guest is Ken Cates.
Ken is a career federal agent,law enforcement expert.
He has worked everythingundercover.
He's worked for a coupleagencies and he rose to the
(00:23):
ranks of being an executive withthe various agencies and the
special agent in charge onwhat's happening today with the
border in Arizona area and heshould provide real insight into
this.
This is an individual thatlives in the southwest border
(00:44):
region.
He knows the problems, he knowsthe solutions.
He's not somebody that's atalking head on mass media that
has either never been there orbeen appointed to those
positions politically.
So this is like I said.
This show is the real deal.
It has the entire criminaljustice spectrum for the
(01:09):
listener.
I am going to talk about a bookhe wrote.
Everything Changed.
It is an account.
It's a fictional account ofborder life and what it is to be
an agent there and what it isto be an agent there.
I think that this should behanded out to Homeland Security
(01:30):
and DOJ so that they understandthe whole process that has been
controversial for the lastcouple of years there.
It's my pleasure to speak withKen now.
Ken, thank you for getting upearly this morning on East Coast
time, and it's a pleasure totalk to you today.
Speaker 2 (01:51):
Well, thanks very much.
It's my pleasure to be here,not that early.
It's only an hour.
We only have a little hourdifference.
I live right outside Dallas,texas, and the only really thing
I'm missing this morning is mygolf game.
So you are a special.
It's a special event for me todo that.
Speaker 1 (02:09):
Yes, yeah, I was.
I watched the.
I'm not a golfer.
I tried to hit a golf ball likea baseball my whole life, so I
wasn't very successful.
But I did enjoy the PGAChampionship with the former
Olympic champion who, longoverdue, won one of the majors
(02:29):
and that, and you know, I likefollowing it and I think it's a
great sport, you know, to watchas a spectator.
You know, especially the 19thhole.
I think that's a tradition.
My father was a golfer and Iused to say to him you know he
would, he would uh.
Grown up in Massachusetts hewould get up early in the
(02:52):
morning, finish his work bythree o'clock and hit the links
and then hit the uh.
After he played nine holes he'dsit at the 19th hole and watch
uh Walter Cronkite on TV, or 12o'clock high or shows like that.
So anyway, thank you very muchfor coming on.
(03:12):
If you could, if you could, onthe first segment, I'd like to
talk about what gets youinterested in law enforcement
where you grew up, and just tostart out with that, I think,
would be the best thing.
Speaker 2 (03:27):
Well, let's see, it's kind of a funny story, I guess.
Um, because I never wasinterested in law enforcement.
I didn't have the.
I really didn't have theslightest inkling about law
enforcement.
I expected uh.
Initially I thought I'd be uh,uh, try to be an attorney and
then discovered that was justtoo hard and a little boring, I
(03:52):
thought.
With all due respect, but Igrew up in Mesquite, texas,
right outside of Dallas.
It was a little country town atthat time that was known for
the rodeo.
So you know a bit of a countryguy, I guess you'd say certainly
(04:16):
suburban.
But I got into law enforcementon a fluke because I'd started
college.
It turned out to be veryexpensive and ultimately Uncle
Sam came calling.
I went into the Army for twoyears and, long story short,
(04:37):
when I finally got back out ofthe service and was finishing up
my college degree, really withan expectation that I'd wind up
being a high school historyteacher, at this point, my
mother called me and said sheasked me if I was in trouble or
(04:59):
you know, essentially, what haveyou done?
I said I have no idea whatyou're talking about, mom.
She said well, some federalagent is calling here trying to
reach you.
And I said gosh, I don't have aclue what you're talking about.
In fact, I didn't even exceptwatching the FBI on TV.
I didn't know anything aboutthe feds and anyway, ultimately
(05:22):
I called the guy and it turnedout he was a recruiter and said
well, you know what you need tocome down for an interview.
I said an interview about what?
Why are you calling me?
And the guy said, well, didn'tyou apply for a job here?
And I said not that I know of.
And at any rate he said, well,oh, I see you're a VRA guy,
(05:46):
which was a program that thegovernment had at the time, the
Vietnam Veterans Readjustment.
Speaker 1 (05:50):
Act.
Speaker 2 (05:53):
And he said well, you must have signed up for this
program.
I said, mister, when I wastrying to get out of the Army I
signed anything.
They put in front of me Iwanted to get out.
They put in front of me Iwanted to get out.
And anyway, I went down andinterviewed and got offered a
job in the regional intelligenceunit for DEA and then after
(06:14):
about a year ATF offered me ajob as an agent.
The rest is history.
So it was kind of a flukereally Turned out.
It paid a little more thanteaching high school history, so
it was kind of a fluke reallyTurned out.
Speaker 1 (06:26):
It paid a little more than teaching high school
history, yeah, but a little moredangerous.
But today, being a teacher insome of the inner city schools,
I don't know which is moredangerous.
You know, unfortunately, thoseare the times I agree.
Yeah, so tell me about when youwent to ATF.
What was that like and when wasthat?
Speaker 2 (06:48):
Well, let's see.
I guess I started with ATFabout the end of 74.
I'm kind of an old guy, I thinkI finally got on in about early
75.
About early 75.
And I got hired in Dallas andthen, ultimately, I went to
(07:10):
Little Rock as my first officeand I'd always wanted to travel,
I'd always wanted to see thecountry, and so I decided to
wanted to see the country and soI decided that I would give
(07:30):
California a try.
And after about a year, yearand a half in Little Rock, which
was a fun time but perhaps notas actionable, I guess, as I
thought it might be Then Itransferred out to California
and ended up working inSacramento and then down in Los
(07:55):
Angeles, which is where I spentthe majority of my time as an
ATF agent, working out of thedowntown LA office agent working
out of the downtown LA office.
Speaker 1 (08:07):
We've talked before and we have mutual people that
we know because I was in LosAngeles in the mid 80s, also
with the marshal service, sothere was a lot of it's a very
small law enforcement worldespecially probably bigger now
with a lot more agents than wehad, but when you only had like
2,500 nationwide for each agency, you pretty much crossed paths
(08:31):
with a lot of people in that.
So tell me about LA what was itlike working?
What kind of cases did you workand that.
Speaker 2 (08:41):
Well, you're right, we certainly do have some mutual
acquaintances.
In fact, you know, if you'vebeen in the feds you know that
that's not atypical A guy mightstart out in the marshal service
and wind up in ATF or gosh.
I've had guys that were in theFBI and wound up in customs with
(09:02):
us.
But uh, when I got to LA, uh, Igot uh initially posted to, uh,
uh, I guess the most uh, atleast in our view, the most
action oriented office.
It was called the downtown LAMetro group and uh, we had every
bad part of of that.
(09:22):
You can imagine.
Uh, south central watch,compton rampart, yes, yeah, uh,
you know, hollywood west,hollywood, uh.
So we, we had the, we had theinner city and, uh, we were
primarily a gun enforcementgroup.
So we were out looking forviolent criminals that were
(09:47):
creating nefarious deeds usingfirearms and we did a lot of
gang work.
We were in what wasaffectionately known then as the
ghetto just about every day.
We also supported andparticipated with the arson
group, the downtown la arsongroup, so we had a lot of fires
(10:11):
that we worked.
I I joined the atf nationalresponse team while I was in los
angeles so that that sort ofaided my travel and give me a
little break from being down inthe ghetto, so to speak.
We could get out and go to abombing or a fire and work those
incidents forensically.
But actually I've always saidthat my time in Los Angeles in
(10:37):
the LA Metro group probably someof the funnest time that I ever
had as an agent.
We worked a lot of undercoverin those days.
You wouldn't believe it, but aTexas cowboy looking guy in fact
that was an undercover name Iused a lot was Cowboy Texas
cowboy looking guy and one of myclosest friends and longest
(11:00):
partners, a little Italian guy.
We were down in the ghettoworking stings and buying,
buying guns from gangsters.
Um, you know, in reflectionseemed like almost every week.
So uh, it was.
It was quite a diversity ofwork out on the streets running
(11:21):
with LAPD, running with the gangunits, the sheriff's department
crash units, and then of course, you know, come Monday you
might have to put on a suit andbe in court.
I always said that being an ATFagent back in those days was
about the most challenging.
I thought that you couldchallenging job you could have
(11:43):
as a fed, because being an ATFagent AJ was fairly close to
being a true street cop.
But at the same time you might,as I said, you might wind up on
an arson scene the next week,you might wind up in court, you
(12:06):
know, the following week andthen, of course, you had to take
care of all your own internalpaperwork.
The ATF system at that time wasa lot simpler than it is today,
I'm sure you know.
We had to account for all ourown undercover money, so we were
our own accountants.
We did a little bit ofeverything back in those days
(12:27):
and we did it with some of thegreatest guys I ever met some of
the funniest, most dedicated,hardworking, courageous group of
guys, and not just in ATF.
We worked closely with SecretService, who were in the office
right next door to us.
We worked with the customs guysout of Terminal Island at the
(12:47):
time and certainly we workedwith LAPD almost constantly.
So great cast of characters inour own office and in those
different agencies and, wow, itwas a really.
I always say it was thegreatest time in the world to be
an 1811, a special agent,because we had just enough
(13:09):
technology and resources to beout ahead of the crooks.
But regulations and ruleshadn't really caught up with us
at that time.
Speaker 1 (13:18):
Yeah, I always tell people that our travel program
was having GTRs in your pocketand if you had to do a
controlled delivery or you hadto go after a fugitive, you just
walked up to the airlinecounter, filled it out and got
on the plane.
Everybody was like, well,didn't you have to get approval
for that?
I said the approval was thatyou were going to go out and
(13:40):
make an arrest.
You know, and like LA, likesome of the watering holes, like
Gorky's and Emmylou's downtownthat we went to, and you know
the big movie that was out thenwas Live and Die in LA with
Secret Service and put them onthe map for Petrovich and for
(14:02):
the counterfeiting and the checkforging and all the stuff which
you know.
And I went later to work atSecret Service as a consultant
on their assets seizure andfinancial investigation.
So it was, like you said, atotally different world and the
(14:23):
many friends that we'veaccumulated over the years are
from different jobs.
I always said that I stayedwith an agency until they
restarted my five-yearbackground, said that I stayed
with an agency until theyrestarted my five-year
background so they wouldn'tcatch up with me and I could
retire.
You know what?
Speaker 2 (14:39):
I mean Well, you can't hit a moving target.
That's what I always said.
That's a good point, okay, soyou were an ATF from what years?
In Los Angeles?
Let's see, in LA, I was therefrom 80 to 86, I think it was.
Speaker 1 (14:54):
Okay, yeah.
I was there 83, 84, and part of85.
Yeah, yeah, it was a good timeA little different.
Speaker 2 (15:04):
Yeah, it was a great time.
We were there during theOlympics.
You know the Olympics was a bigdeal at the time, you know.
Thankfully nothing happened.
It ended up being a boringassignment.
Were you on the task force forthat?
Yeah, we all were.
Atf brought in a bunch of guysfrom all over the country and we
(15:24):
actually were just doingpresence patrolling.
I guess during all that we weredriving around from venue to
venue.
In fact that was one of thebiggest investigations that ever
happened in ATF.
Los Angeles then was because onone boring evening an unnamed
agent and again this shows youhow far back technology goes
(15:46):
Took his two-way radio andJohnny Paycheck's take this job
and shove.
It was playing over the AMradio at the time, so he keyed
the mic and broadcast all overthe LA basin and the task force
frequency Take this Job andShove it.
And I think our office, ourbosses, had about a three-week
(16:08):
investigation trying to identifywho that culprit was.
Speaker 1 (16:11):
Home in on it, home in on it.
I'm dating culprit was Home inon it, home in on it.
I'm dating myself too Home inon it, and that, yeah, when I
was out there during theOlympics two weeks before, I had
a case in Oxnard and it was afugitive who had assumed the
identity of a dead person I'mgoing to promote my book a
little.
But we went up there and he hadblown up two police cars in
(16:36):
Spokane and the courthouse andATF was involved and the Bureau
of course, because it wasterrorism, of course they got to
get in there, the FBI listeners.
I don't mean to offend you, butyou know.
But anyway, I was involved inthat and you know, like you said
, with that and kidding around,seriously, you had some very
(16:58):
serious cases and I'd like youto talk about the one that
involved the chief in LAPD.
I think that's a tremendousstory.
Speaker 2 (17:08):
Well, again, I think, upon reflection, I think that
was another quasi-famous agent'scase.
It was a young agent at thetime named Bill Queen, but he
started that case and itinvolved the Aryan Nation, which
was prominent at the time, andNation which was prominent at
(17:33):
the time, and it ended up beingan undercover case and worked
with LAPD on it.
But the LAPD had acontroversial unit back then
called the Intel Unit I think ithad another name, but it was
essentially an intelligencefunction but later got banned, I
(17:53):
believe, but we won't get intothat.
Speaker 1 (17:55):
I know they're chalking it up.
Speaker 2 (17:58):
Yeah, so that particular case.
A bunch of Aryan Nationskinhead types were interested
in acquiring a bunch of fullyautomatic weapons and were
involved in convertingsemi-automatics to automatics.
So our office there, the MetroGun Group, got involved in that
(18:22):
case.
Our agent worked undercover.
Ultimately there were somethreats made against Darrell
Gates, the chief of LAPD at thetime.
And so we worked that case andin those days an investigative
group would be about eight or 10agents and it was a pretty
(18:46):
tight-knit group.
So if one guy was out on a case, the whole group was out.
We tried to have a standingrule back in those days that you
know you run the deal, the dealdoesn't run you, and the
standing rule was we don't wantto have any deals that go on
Friday night, saturday night orSunday night, so try to keep
(19:09):
your deals during the work week.
Speaker 1 (19:10):
Federal Friday.
It didn't always make thathappen.
Speaker 2 (19:13):
But we tried and, at any rate, we ended up taking
down that group of guys, gettinga warrant, raiding them.
Lapd and some of theirsignificant players came out
there.
We took all those guys intocustody and prosecuted them.
And then Darryl Gates came overand, uh, you know, gave us a
big pat on the back and we allgot our picture taken with the,
(19:36):
with daryl the, you know, theinventor of the swat concept,
and, and, uh, that picturefloats around from time to time.
What's that?
Speaker 1 (19:44):
what was that tank?
There was a name for the.
Remember the tank that they gotto demolish houses.
Speaker 2 (19:50):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, that was where they put the big
long spear on the front of themRight.
Like a Brinks armored car truck.
Speaker 1 (20:02):
They were selling them up at the police academy.
We would go up there for theclam chowder on Fridays and to
see Heather Locklear swim in thepool for TJ Hooker.
Remember those days.
Speaker 2 (20:14):
Yeah, yeah, oh sure, yeah, we used to.
You know most law enforcementagencies and certainly ATF.
Back then they gave us I thinkthey gave us three hours of paid
time a week to work out, sothat was our go-to spot.
We'd go up to the LAPD Academy.
Speaker 1 (20:32):
It's a little slow with me, but the name of it was
RAM.
That was what they called itRAM.
Go ahead.
I'm sorry.
I have this useless informationthat goes into my brain the
closer I get to 70.
Speaker 2 (20:45):
So I'm going to say it yeah, believe me, I'm living
that.
But yeah, we'd go up there tothe LAPD Academy and run on the
track and, you know, eat in thecheap cafeteria and you know,
try to get gun deals out of thegun store that was up there.
And then you know, we, as Isaid, we worked in the ghetto
(21:06):
constantly.
We were on many raids with LAPDwhere you know they ran, they
ran that Ram through the side ofa house and about pulled down a
you know some kind of a crackhouse or something down there.
Pretty, it was wild timesreally.
I mean I I look back on it Ithink my gosh, I don't know how
we didn't get.
You know, we didn't get reallyhurt down there because we were,
(21:29):
we were really winging it manytimes.
Speaker 1 (21:34):
Running and gun, and that's exactly what that era was
right there, especially in thatcity yeah, we, well, we had a
great uh.
Speaker 2 (21:42):
I'll tell you.
You know, I think all uh, allreally productive cops will tell
you that what makes a greatinvestigator is having great
informants.
And and then we just happen tohave about the best informant uh
that we ever had down there.
Uh, in fact, I, you know, Ihate to even call him an
informant he was uh, uh, youknow, he was a cooperating
(22:03):
individual and uh, uh, he, thatguy could generate more gun
cases down there.
Uh, he was uh at the time, ofcourse, we were young guys.
I think he was about 65.
We called him Old Nicky.
You know, we thought Old Nickywas old.
Sorry, we got an Amber Alert orsomething coming up here.
Speaker 1 (22:22):
Oh okay, that's important.
What happens when I hear thatnoise?
I have one of those sugarmonitors and it goes off.
It went off yesterday on myphone and everybody's like
what's that?
I said I shouldn't have hadthat martini at lunch.
No, I'm kidding with you, butit does go off Go ahead.
(22:44):
I'm sorry.
Speaker 2 (22:48):
But that's really what made the.
We did one of the very first.
My partner Jimmy and I did oneof the very first headquarters
monitored special projects downthere.
So we came up with this conceptof, instead of having a
storefront kind of sting wherewe would buy guns, we had a
(23:09):
mobile state.
So we first used a old Nikki'svan and then we got our own
undercover van and we we made acircuit all through South
Central and and every every daywe would have different stops
and we would roll up in our van.
My partner Jim and I and and, ofcourse, our LA Metro cover
(23:32):
teams would be around and and uh, we would just meet these
gangsters on the street and buystolen guns and uh, occasionally
we'd buy dope from them, youknow, whatever it took, and and
uh, really sit on the streetcorner and uh, smoke a cool
cigarette and, you know, drink acouple of beers and uh and uh,
(23:53):
you know, talk them right intoprison.
So it was a wild, wild andcrazy time down there then and
it was all really based on theteamwork that we did and based
on having great informants andbegrudgingly because back in the
day we would never haveadmitted this, but begrudgingly
we had some supervisors thatgave us enough rope to either
(24:17):
hang ourself or make us prettygood agents.
Luckily, we're still breathing.
Speaker 1 (24:22):
Trial by fire.
Right, that's exactly what itwas.
You were there, so let's go tofollow you with ATF and where
you moved to after that.
Speaker 2 (24:35):
You know from having lived in LA that even in the 80s
traffic every day was just anightmare.
It was just unbelievable.
I lived down in HuntingtonBeach, which from my driveway to
my parking spot in the downtownfederal building was about 30
miles, and that was typically anhour, 15 to an hour to two
(24:59):
hours on the road one way.
So that also actuallyfacilitated a lot of undercover
work because we knew we weregoing to be stuck in traffic.
So we might as well just stayat work and you know work, uh,
work down the ghetto till eight,nine o'clock at night and then
drive home with you know lesstraffic, but I had on my desk.
Speaker 1 (25:17):
I had on my desk a sign and it said we arrest
fugitives by appointment onlybecause it was the same thing.
We had to know the guy wasthere because the the chief
deputy, who was a former Marine,would come in and say you got a
rest today.
Yeah, how sure are you?
On a scale of one to 10?
(25:37):
, well, I always learn 50%chance, just so 51.
So we would go out and do it,but I didn't mean to cut you off
.
Go ahead, tell me about it.
Speaker 2 (25:46):
No, no, no, that's exactly the way it was.
You know it was just.
The commute was a struggle.
So after five or six years ofthat, I really I loved ATF.
I loved being an ATF agent.
I was relatively successful, Iguess, and so I kept just trying
to get transferred to one ofthe outlying offices closer to
(26:09):
my house, because there were acouple of other outlying ATF
offices in Long Beach and downin Santa Ana that were 30
minutes on surface streets.
But I think I tried.
I submitted a memo to transferto one of those offices.
I think my record was 24 timesbecause I would submit it once a
(26:30):
quarter, 24 times, 24 times,because I would submit it once a
quarter, 24 times to just leavedowntown, leave the Metro Gun
Group and just go to a littleslower paced office.
And so ultimately my my specialagent in charge, then after
about the 20.
One time I got my memo back andhe had handwritten on it.
Your repeated requests fortransfer are noted.
(26:54):
They are not in the staffingpattern at this time and you can
expect to remain in the LAMetro Gun Group for a long, long
time.
You're kidding me?
That's a true story.
So I thought, golly, maybe it'stime to do something else.
(27:15):
So, uh, so about the in 86, um,to kind of digress, customs, up
until the 84, 85, 86, in thatarea customs agents were
(27:38):
essentially precluded fromworking narcotics cases because
of the DEA, the creation of DEAin the 70s, and a lot of customs
agents had been merged into DEAback then, I think in 72.
And so customs worked.
You know, they worked generalsmuggling and a lot of
commercial import fraud andthings like that.
I mean they certainly earnedtheir pay but they didn't really
(28:01):
work narcotics.
But by the mid 80s the war ondrugs was really going on and
dope smuggling was so prevalent,particularly down at the US
borders, at all the ports ofentry, and the process at that
time was that when the uniformedcustoms inspectors and customs
(28:26):
officers would catch a load ofdope in a truck or a car or what
have you, they had to call aDEA agent to come down and take
the case and take it to.
And customs officers would catcha load of dope in a truck or a
car or what have you, they hadto call a DEA agent to come down
and take the case and take itto federal court and DEA just
got overwhelmed.
Those were called port callcases.
Dea had gotten overwhelmed andrecognized that they needed some
help.
And customs got at that timecross-designated Title 21
(28:50):
authority to work narcoticsdomestically.
And so Customs put on a hugehiring to take on that new
program that they had, thatexpanded narcotics program.
So man Customs in the late 80sCustoms was hiring guys from DEA
and ATF and Secret Service, Imean just about everywhere FBI
(29:12):
guys.
And so to go back even furtherback in, oh my gosh, I think it
was around 78 or so in ATFRonald Reagan, who was not an
ATF fan when he got electedpresident had committed to
(29:33):
abolish the Bureau of Alcohol,tobacco and Fire.
Speaker 1 (29:34):
You're going to talk about the RIF notices right
Right.
Speaker 2 (29:36):
Reduction of course.
Yeah, we had all gotten RIFnotices back then and so a lot
of guys did what ATF managementcalled jump ship.
A lot of those guys that got alot of agents back then in the
70s went over.
They went to Secret Service andother places but seemed like
(29:57):
predominantly a lot of guys wentto customs as agents.
So by the 80s when I was told Iwas going to be in downtown LA
for a long, long time, a lot ofthose xatf guys had moved into
customs management positions.
So from those and as you pointout, you know a lot, most of
your friends are guys that youworked with.
(30:19):
So still knowing some of thoseguys and knowing that customs
was hiring, I kind of put outsome feelers and uh and and got
um, you know, got some positivefeedback about just transferring
over to customs there in LA.
But then they also pointed outthat, boy, they were really
(30:40):
hiring down in Texas, which hasa huge Mexican border, and if I
ever wanted to go back home Imight ought to consider that.
So, long story short, I endedup applying.
I actually went back to atf andsaid, well, look, these guys
offered me a job and and I'mthinking about going, unless you
(31:01):
think there's a possibilitythat I can get uh you know, out
of la and uh.
And ultimately they said, yeah,if I were you I would take that
job.
So so I did I, I, uh, Itransferred to customs.
I was lucky enough to getpicked up, uh, as a customs
agent down in san antonio, downsan antonio, texas.
(31:23):
So that was my uh, that was my,my impetus to leave atf, to
leave my longtime friends.
I mean I had about 12, a littleover 12 total years with ATF
when I left 12 or 13.
It was really all I knew and,despite having worked a couple
(31:44):
of cases with customs out in LosAngeles, boy, I really knew
nothing about customs.
But you know, it was anopportunity to get back home, be
closer to my parents my parentswere getting elderly then and
get my kids out of LA at thetime.
So really, once again, sort offate just intervened and I
(32:04):
pulled the trigger on it and gottransferred down to San Antonio
and the whole world of mothercustoms opened up to me there.
Speaker 1 (32:13):
What year was this?
Speaker 2 (32:17):
So that was the fall of 86 when I left LA.
I think it was 80.
I'm pretty sure it was 86.
Speaker 1 (32:24):
This was the Von Rob era, when they really started
beefing up enforcement and allthat.
I'm anxious to talk to youabout when he closed the border,
which is legendary.
Speaker 2 (32:37):
Yeah, commissioner Van Rob was the commissioner
then.
Speaker 1 (32:40):
Yeah, so you went to San Antonio.
Speaker 2 (32:45):
I did.
I went to San Antonio.
I ended up.
At the time I had a pilot'slicense, and now I have my
attack dog barking on the otherend of the house.
Speaker 1 (32:59):
It's lunchtime, that's why Did you feed him.
Speaker 2 (33:03):
Probably means my wife has an Amazon package being
delivered somewhere.
So I had a pilot's licenseAgain.
Again, it was kind of a funnystory.
I, I, I reported for work, youknow, on a monday morning and
and, uh, atf, atf, that I justleft was was pretty, you know,
(33:24):
it was pretty structured.
I mean, we were, you know, wewere accountable to our bosses
and and, and we were, you know,we were accountable to our
bosses and and, uh, they, we hada, we had a lot of bosses that
had that idea that, uh, to quoteone of my partners, that that
agents ought to be all in theirplaces with bright, shining
faces.
You know, by 8 30 you should bein the office, that kind of
(33:44):
stuff.
We, we, believe me, we haveplenty of workarounds for that.
But when I got to customs thefirst day, I showed up and there
were just a couple of the SACsecretary and the admin officer
were there.
I said, hey, I'm the new agent,I'm here to report, and they
(34:05):
said, oh yeah, no one's heretoday, you're going to have to
come back tomorrow.
Oh my gosh, I said no, no, noone's here today, you're going
to have to come back tomorrow.
Oh my gosh, I said no, no, no,I can't come back tomorrow.
You know, I mean, I gotchildren, I need to get, you
know, my insurance transferredover and get my pay started.
And they went, yeah, no,they're all at the range and
then they're having a barbecueout there and so no one will be
(34:27):
here until tomorrow.
So you just got to come backtomorrow.
So, uh, I ultimately did talkhim into letting me sign on, but
but essentially, I came back onTuesday and, uh, um, walked
into the SAC office down in SanAntonio, which was a small
office that was originally abouteight or nine agents and at
(34:48):
that time was ballooning toabout 20.
And so there were not enoughdesks, not enough cars, you name
it.
So I walk in on the second day,on Tuesday, and ASAC met me,
the assistant special agent incharge, and he said oh, yeah,
yeah, the SAC told me you werecoming.
What group are you going to bein?
I said, man, I don't know whatgroups do you have?
(35:12):
You know, I knew nothing aboutcustoms.
And so the ASAC said well, whatare your hobbies?
What are your hobbies?
And I said, well, I'm a.
I'm a big runner.
I ran a pretty big runner and Igolf a little bit and I, I, I
got a pilot's license.
Oh, you got a pilot's license.
Oh, you're in the air smugglinggroup.
That's how management was backthen.
(35:39):
They were over at a big orangehangar over at the San Antonio
airport.
They're located with thecustoms air guys over there.
I had actually already beenover there and I said, yeah, I
know where that is.
They said, well, just go overthere.
They got an acting supervisorover there to just tell him
you're assigned to his group andI don't want to bore you.
(36:00):
But upon reflection I said,okay, well, all right, great.
Well, how am I going to getover there?
He said, well, I don't know.
I said, well, I need a car.
Speaker 1 (36:09):
A jeep ride Come.
Well, I don't know.
I said, well, I need a carG-Ride.
Speaker 2 (36:10):
Come on, where's my G-Ride?
He said, oh, we don't have anycars, we're going to get some.
But we'll get you a car.
Just see the lady out front.
She'll lease you a car for awhile and then we'll figure
something out.
I said, okay.
I said well how about equipment?
He said well, like what I saidwell how about like a gun?
Yeah, yeah, I said how aboutlike a gun?
(36:31):
And the guy looked at me.
He said a gun.
He said don't you have your owngun, texas?
Yes, I said I don't have a gun.
He said you came from ATF.
You don't have your own pistol.
I said no.
I said in ATF you got to carrya government gun.
So I don't even.
I got a deer rifle and ashotgun but I don't own a pistol
(36:53):
.
So he reached down in one ofthose big old, you know mahogany
government desks that he satbehind you know big, huge
executive desk and pulled openthis big file cabinet and there
was about 20 pistols of everykind of make and model thrown in
there, automatics and revolvers.
And he said, hey, just grab oneof these and pick one out and
(37:15):
then tell the property guy toput it on your paperwork when
you think about it.
So I picked out a littlefive-shot stainless steel Smith
which in ATF you had to die orretire.
Yeah, model 60, cheap special.
Somebody had to die or retireto get that gun in APF.
So I got a little cheap specialand I said okay.
(37:37):
Then I said well, how aboutsome ID?
He said you'll get that whenyou go to customs agent school.
I said well, when's that goingto be?
He said it'll probably be.
That could be a year or longerbecause we got a bunch of new
hires that are going to thoseacademy classes now.
So I gave him the pistol back.
(37:58):
I said well then I probablywon't need this pistol if I
don't have any ID, you know.
So he said okay, wait a minute.
And he goes in the little frontoffice, comes back with a, with
a customs, a customs letterheadand it said typed on it was to
whom it may concern, this willcertify that kenneth gates is a
special agent with us customs,authorized to make arrests and
(38:18):
carry firearms, signed uh,acting special agent in charge.
And then he gave me a bluegovernment credit card and that
was the id that I carried for my, like my first year in custody.
Speaker 1 (38:31):
He didn't say a little note on the side we don't
need no stinking badges, right?
Speaker 2 (38:37):
No, no, you know.
Now, within within a couple ofmonths, they did send me a
temporary badge from from aGlencoe, from Plessy and and a
little laminated ID card.
But I carried that letterheadman.
I got on airplanes with thatand a blue government credit
(39:00):
card more than once in my firstyear.
Speaker 1 (39:04):
The good old days.
Speaker 2 (39:05):
It was very organized .
I said what about a vest?
I said I need a vest.
He said a bulletproof vest.
He said I need a vest.
He said a bulletproof vest.
He said we don't have any ofthat stuff in customs.
He said I don't know about allyou transferee guys, but we
don't have any of that stuff incustoms.
And I mean that's how primitiveit was in 86 when I came to
customs, wow.
So once again, as I say, it wasthe greatest time to be an
(39:29):
agent because they basicallysaid here you go, here's your
government steed and a gun, goforth and do good stuff and just
figure it out.
And we did.
We went out and man Customs hadsome incredible they were
called air officers at the timeand and customs pilots, who were
(39:50):
all law enforcement guys.
Speaker 1 (39:52):
Right.
Speaker 2 (39:52):
And man, we would just get in airplanes and fly
around and follow, followairplanes that were coming
across the border and landbehind them and, you know, fly
out to some remote desert stripand eat good Mexican enchiladas
in West Texas for lunch.
You know, it was just a wild,wild time and I guess it was
(40:15):
sort of the closing days of airsmuggling, because that was
really just before the cartelssort of organized and put all
the independent smugglers out ofbusiness.
Back in those days you couldjust fly across the border to
some Mexican town, you know, buy500 pounds of weed and fly it
back in and, you know, withineight or 10 years the cartels
(40:39):
organized all that and you couldfly to Mexico with a plane, but
you probably weren't flyingback out.
Speaker 1 (40:45):
So what did you do with the?
And just for a personal note,we had a big-time air smuggler
on yesterday who got out on acompassion release and quite a
character from the Keys.
So you got seven life sentencesfor that.
What's his name?
(41:06):
Dickie Lynn?
Yeah, and he was on and I'mgoing to have on after you one
of the smugglers from the late70s.
He also received substantialsentences.
So this should be good, and Inever was in an air group like
(41:28):
that.
I mean, I was in airportresponse, which was totally
different.
Uh, with that and uh it's.
I love hearing uh smugglingstories because I don't think
the general public, uh, they'reso used.
This is refreshing for me tohear because a lot of the
(41:57):
complaints that we had as agentsand as a first line supervisor,
like I was, is we would getmanagers that hadn't lived a
life, that had been done a tourin headquarters.
You know the deal.
And then they come back andthey're an ASAC or a DSAC.
But go ahead, tell me whathappened with your smuggling
then when you went there in SanAntonio.
Speaker 2 (42:18):
Well, again, it was still pretty primitive Customs
and some of this predates me soI'm kind of giving you some
secondhand background and someof this predates me.
So I'm kind of giving you somesecondhand background.
But, as I said earlier, customsSpecial Agents didn't work
narcotics up until the late 80s,you know, just by statutory
(42:41):
limitation for Title 21,.
You know that all belonged toDEA agents.
But the one program in Customsthat continued to work narcotics
was the customs air program.
So they had customs airofficers and customs pilots who
were just as much an agent asany agent you ever met, in fact
(43:02):
even more so, had flown up anddown the southwest border from
all the way from Brownsville tobasically to San Diego and and
tracked drug smuggling airplanes.
They worked cases, they workedinformants.
You know I think they had aninformant in every little
(43:23):
fixed-base private airport upand down the Mexican border.
So those guys were very, very,very prolific, even as that
program evolved and theyrestructured and they ended up
with air interdiction officers.
Those guys were out there everyday patrolling and flying
(43:43):
around and developinginformation and then doing
interdiction work when planeswould bust the border and radar
would pick them up.
Those were the guys thatlaunched in customs aircraft and
customs helicopters, you know,to land right behind a dope
(44:03):
smuggling scheme and take thosepeople into custody.
So that was the environmentthat we kind of fell into.
Uh, uh, those guys wereveterans and knew what they were
doing, and and uh, uh, therewas a little friction because,
uh, the agency, as I said,customs was evolving and and uh
and agents really became uh,preeminent in in the prosecution
(44:27):
of those kinds of cases, butvery, very common that we would
be in the office.
And Customs had its own networkof feeds from every FAA radar
all over the country.
And then in the 80s they put upa series of aerostats, those
(44:51):
big balloons up and down theborder, to finally cover places
that didn't even have FFA radarcoverage.
A typical smuggling deal was asmall aircraft, might be a
(45:13):
single engine, might be a twinengine.
An independent smuggler wouldfly into gosh, you name it
Monterey or Piedras, negras orwherever, take on a load of weed
Typically I think it was weedsmuggling but might take on
cocaine at the time and then, uh, come back across the border.
(45:33):
Of course they would turn offtheir aviation electronics, they
would turn off theirtransponders, fly really low and
then pop up, turn their, turntheir uh transponders back on
and then you know, land inwichita falls or Lubbock or or
wherever the you know that theywere based out of and and the
(45:54):
customs communications and radarguys, our radar specialists.
They were just constantlyscanning those radar screens
looking for those unidentifiedtargets and and they would
launch customs aircraft.
You'd get, you'd get a call andit would be.
It would be like a fire alarmwent off.
The air crews would run to theairplanes or we had some old
(46:17):
Army surplus Mike Model Hueyhelicopters.
That was even before theBlackhawks came in.
But you would run out there andjump in an aircraft with the
customs pilots and we would gochasing after those airplanes
and land behind them in fieldsor on county roads and um and
jump out.
And you know, sometimes youcaught dope and sometimes you
(46:40):
didn't.
You know just a, I guess ahumorous story.
I was sitting in the office insan antonio and one of those
alerts came from the, thecustoms radar guys, and the
pilots came running into oursquad bay and said come on, we
got, we got a, we got a hottarget coming across the border
from del rio.
So, man, I ran out and wejumped in a customs king air,
(47:05):
two pilots and myself and uh, atthe time I think I had a six
inch smith model 66, uh 357revolver with me.
That was it, and a blue nyloncustoms raid jacket.
That was.
That was a sum total of ourequipment.
So we jumped in this customsairplane and took off and all of
(47:27):
a sudden, of course they're on,the pilots, are talking to the
radar guys and and all of asudden the of course they're on
the pilots or talking to theradar guys, and all of a sudden
the transponder kicks on.
You know every kind of trappingof a smuggling deal and they
vector in behind.
Popular Podcasts
Crime Junkie
Does hearing about a true crime case always leave you scouring the internet for the truth behind the story? Dive into your next mystery with Crime Junkie. Every Monday, join your host Ashley Flowers as she unravels all the details of infamous and underreported true crime cases with her best friend Brit Prawat. From cold cases to missing persons and heroes in our community who seek justice, Crime Junkie is your destination for theories and stories you won’t hear anywhere else. Whether you're a seasoned true crime enthusiast or new to the genre, you'll find yourself on the edge of your seat awaiting a new episode every Monday. If you can never get enough true crime... Congratulations, you’ve found your people. Follow to join a community of Crime Junkies! Crime Junkie is presented by audiochuck Media Company.
24/7 News: The Latest
The latest news in 4 minutes updated every hour, every day.
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.