Ep 18: Billy Dekle - Navigating Danger and Redemption - Justice Then, Justice Now

Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
We have another session of Justice, then Justice
Now, okay, and this is going tobe a very interesting one.
It's going to be a time capsule, but it's a very interesting
person.
Billy Deckley's here in studiotoday to talk to us about his

(00:21):
life back with the drugsmuggling days, his
incarceration and his book.
It's called Flying High withGringo Billy.
Okay, and it's available.
You can buy this book on Amazonand through other outlets.
He's going to talk about that.
I enjoyed it.

(00:43):
It's good reading for anybodyinterested in criminal justice,
and tells it like it is here.
We've talked prior to this infull disclosure about that, and
we both came to an agreementthat it would be very productive

(01:05):
for the listeners to hear hislife story on this.
So I'm going to turn it over toBilly, known as Gringo Billy,
and first the question I'd likeyou to answer for the viewers is
how'd you get that name?

Speaker 2 (01:28):
how'd you get that name?
Well, this is how it came about.
On my very first trip tocolumbia, I went down uh I don't
know if you know where valuedepart is went over rio hacha
down to value depart uh, about20, 30 miles south of value
depart and landed in a cowpasture to pick up my first load
and a fella comes out and hewalks up to me you could tell he

(01:50):
was the one barking out theorders, he was the heffy.
He walks over to me and hepounds on his chest and he goes,
coach ann.
And so I looked and I poundedon mine back at him and I said
Billy, he goes, gringo Billy.
And then he puts in avion loco.

(02:12):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (02:13):
Speaking of that, before we start on how you got
started in that, give us abackground of where you're from
and how you got involved in this, and we've chatted about this,
but I think it's really, reallyinteresting how this came about.

Speaker 2 (02:32):
Well, as a kid, up until I was 13 years old, I
lived on a farm in Union Countyon New River and Dad he worked
for the phone company companyand he got a big promotion to go
to Lake City and be the plantmanager.
So he had to live there and tome that was like going to New

(02:54):
York City.
I didn't want to go, but when Igot there I liked it.
It was a lot of things to dothere, a lot more girls in
school and what have you.
And uh, that's how I wound upin lake city and what happened?
I started learning.
My cousin came up to see us andhe's telling me about he's

(03:17):
flying, he's, he's going tomiami-dade junior college and
burnside ought.
Uh, he's from miami and Ithat's the first time I realized
that.
Just I said I thought you hadto have a college education or
be in the service or somethinglike that.
To fly an airplane.
You have to be, you know, supersmart.
And he's telling me, no, hesays just got to be 16 years old

(03:41):
and find a flight instructorand have some money.
It's got to be 16 years old andfind a flight instructor and
have some money.
And so I was going to be acowboy up until then and he's
telling me all about flying.
In fact he didn't come up.
I went down to Miami and hetook me out for a flight at
night and I was sold.

(04:01):
And so when I get back to homeI tell Daddy I said he wasn't
real big on the cowboy deal.
I told him I said, look, I'vechanged my mind.
I want to be a pilot.
And that really made him happy.
He gets on the phone, finds theflight instructor and I go down
and people nowadays takingflying lessons will think I paid

(04:24):
$9 an hour for a Cessna 150.

Speaker 1 (04:29):
What year was this?
This is 1966.

Speaker 2 (04:31):
Okay $13 an hour, with the instructor getting
taught you know.
And so I did that and I got myflight instructor rating, I got
my commercial license, I got myinstrument rating, I got my
multi-engine rating and all that, and I took over the Lake City

(04:52):
Airport as the airport managerand all the facilities there and
I had a Part 135 air taxicertificate.
How old were you when this washappening?
I was 16 whenever I started.
I had a Part 135 air taxicertificate.

Speaker 1 (05:05):
How old were you when this was happening?

Speaker 2 (05:07):
I was 16 whenever I started and whenever I took over
the airport I was in my early20s, okay, and this must have
been in 1974, 75.
, there was a fellow there thathad a Beach 18, and he was

(05:31):
suspected of smuggling.
I'd known the fellow for quitea while and I knew, you know,
when the airborne smugglingstarted I knew all the area
pilots and then you could tellwho was doing and who wasn't,
and I always felt like you know,they were good people before
and just because they were doingthat I didn't, they didn't

(05:53):
change anything with me.
You know, going down andgetting the marijuana and coming
back and, um, this fella'sbeach 18, his pilot, it.
It crashed down in Columbia sohe lost his airplane.
And a fellow with the customsand FBI and a lot of people out

(06:16):
of Jacksonville came to theairport and they started telling
me about this fellow and what abad guy he was.
Well, I never thought he wasthat bad of a guy, fella, and
what a bad guy he was.
Well, I never thought he wasthat bad of a guy and what a
good service I'd be doing forthe country and everybody and
they'd even pay me if I set himup help them because he had lost

(06:36):
his airplane.
I had an aztec, a twin aztec,and they wanted me to offer him
my services and my airplane andget him to mark a place on the
map.
I'm going to wear a wire andall this stuff and I'm thinking
the whole time I'm not going todo this, but I don't tell them

(06:56):
that I said, look, I've got totalk to my wife about this, I've
got to think about this andI'll let you know.
And I warned the guy the nextday and told him.
I said, look, whatever, I don'tknow what you're doing, don't
care what you're doing, but thisis what they say you're doing
and if you are, you probablyneed to quit because they're

(07:18):
getting ready to bust you.
And he said, well, thanks andall that.
And he says if you do ever wantto do that, let me know.

Speaker 1 (07:28):
So you had two offers at the same time.

Speaker 2 (07:31):
Yeah, one set the guy up and then the guy that I was
supposed to set up he's offeringme hey, you want to try this?
And I'm thinking you know well,if I do, probably not with you.
And things rocked on.
Dad's company went bankrupt.
I wasn't making enough money atthe airport.
I'm flying my butt off and I'mpaying insurance companies and

(07:52):
airplane payments and risking mylife because I'm flying
overloaded, because you'rehaving to compete with airlines.
They'll call you hey, well,I've got six people who need to
go somewhere.
Can you compete with theairline on this?
You know, for six tickets, andso I've got to get a little
under them.
And that's overloading theairplane, which is not safe.

(08:14):
If you lose an engine, you knowthe airplane handled it all
right on both engines, but ifyou have a malfunction, you're
going down.
A malfunction, you're goingdown.
And after everything, I was insuch bad financial shape that we
were turning the piggy bankupside down to go to grocery

(08:34):
store and I said I said tomyself, I'm a pilot, I know
these people that are doing this.
They're making money, all ofthem driving Lincolns and things
like that real nice cars.
And we're using mymother-in-law's old car.
She's loaned it to us.
So I go to Tom and tell him.

(08:56):
I said, look, you know what wetalked about before.
He says, yeah.
I said, well, I'm ready, I needto make some money.
And I felt like to me I hadnever smoked no pot, never, you
know, done any of that, and Iactually felt like I was doing
something wrong.
But to me it was the leastwrong thing I could do to get my

(09:18):
butt out of the financial jam.
I was in jam, I was in, so Iwent ahead.
I went to tom and I made myfirst first trip was tried in a
dc7, a four-engine dc7.
That's the only first one I'dever been inside of so what was
your first trip?

(09:38):
like, obviously you were nervousbecause, well, the first
attempt was in the dc7 and Itold tom, I said I don't think
the biggest thing I'd flew up tothen was like an aero commander
, a queen air or something likethat.
And this dc7 is four engines, 3700 horsepower an engine.
And I said tom, do you think Ican fly this?

(10:00):
He says you fly it like anyairplane you've flown before,
from the front seat up.
He said all that out there andall that behind you.
He said it's coming right along.
He says you.
He says you can do it with thetype experience you got, you'll
have no problem so he knew howto crank it up, he knew how to

(10:20):
change the fuel and all that andset the engines.
And here we go, almost, uh, wego all the way down the runway
before we take off, get up,climb out and I'm trying to
figure out how to tune in.
Uh, bimini, on the adf get,because all this equipment,
avionics are new.
You know, they don't have themin the 5150s, like that, and it

(10:43):
was out of the 50s.
And so I'm trying to tune inBimini, and Tom and the fellow
sitting in the right seat,they're tapping on something, a
gauge, and they're talking andthey're tapping and I can tell
something's up.
And I said, tom, what's goingon?
And he says there's four gaugesup there and it said all

(11:09):
quantity gauges, three of themwere full and one of them was
empty, like on the number threeengine.
And he said it's the gauge.
He said because if it wasn't agauge she had already blew by
now.
And when he said, now that'swhen she blew.
And oh, I'll tell you, when youblow a catastrophic engine

(11:30):
failure, that big of an engine,it's like an earthquake in that
airplane.
It shook it and rocked it.
And then, when she was finallywinding down, we're going back
and forth and we secured theengine.
You know, turn off the fuel,close the cow flaps, trim it out
for three-engine flight, andall that.

(11:51):
And then, tom, he goes,unbuckling the seat belt and
getting up and I'm thinking,does he have a parachute?

Speaker 1 (11:57):
in him anywhere.
That's what I would havethought too, yeah.

Speaker 2 (11:59):
I said where are you going?
And he says, well, I'm going tocheck the engine for damage and
fire.
That's the first time I thoughtof that.
I said, oh my, yeah, go ahead.
And then I'm picturing us a bigroman candle going through
there.
He comes back, sayseverything's good, it's all good
, and he says we got a decisionto make.

(12:21):
I said what's that?
He says we can go on down onthree engines and come back with
a piece of a load, or we can goget the engine fixed.
I said well, tom, no furtherthan we've got it.
I said could we fly on twoengines?
He said loaded two going on thesame side.
He said we're swimming.
I said I think we probablyought to get this thing worked

(12:44):
on.
We came side.
He says we're swimming.
I said I think we probably oughtto get this thing worked on,
and and so we came back and Imade a good landing.
I mean, I got about an hour andsomething time in a dc7 without
ever being checked out.
So uh, next I got a friend ofmine that I had confided with, a
real good friend, telling himwhat I was doing and he was

(13:08):
wanting to know, as soon as Iget back.
How'd it go?
How'd it go?
I told him.
I said, man, we lost an engine.
We're on hold, we ain't got noairplane.
He says, well, tell them, I'llbuy one.
So I went from a four-engineairplane to a one-engine
airplane, went and bought aCessna 210, rigged it out with a

(13:31):
bladder.
This is my next attempt becausethey said when they put the
bladder in, they said all right,it's going to gravity feed,
down to the fuel selector andthe engine-driven fuel pump is
going to pick it up and take itto the engine.
And you're good.
So I'm almost a great inaugural.
When the engine quits and so Iturn it to the other uh thing,

(13:54):
it fires back up and I said Ican't be out of gas and I turn
it back on.
She quits again.
I turn it back two or threetimes.
Then I get up on my hands andknees, turn around backwards and
look down in the bladder andand I see plenty of gas in there
.
So I said you know, theengine-driven pump's probably
not doing what Charlie told meit'd do.
So I turn around and come backand we put a fuel pump on it.

(14:18):
It's what an inline fuel pump.
So I'd pump the fuel up to thetank and then burn it from the
tank down gravity feed all theway.
And so I'm head down on thistrip.
This is a couple days later,after we'd put the pump on, and,
uh, I get in a lot of weather.

(14:39):
It's, it's bad weather, and wedidn't have weather channel back
then and things, and youcouldn't call the flight service
.
Hey, I'm going to Columbiatoday.
How is it down there, and allthat?
So what?
I looked at Florida Times Unionhad a radar shot down in the
right-hand corner of the frontpage every day, and as long as

(15:01):
there wasn't a hurricane rightthere, I'm going.
And so I could tell you know,with the radar shot, and as long
as there wasn't a hurricaneright there, I'm going.
And so I could tell you know,with the radar shot.
And I fought the weather allthe way down there.
And I landed and got my name,gringo Billy, and I was given to
Coach Ann the heffy.
I was supposed to give him apistol.
It had a cowboy belt, you know,and it must have been a 357.

(15:25):
It was large caliber, smith andwesson.
He takes the gun out, thepistol out of the belt, drops
the belt on the ground, sticksthe pistol in his pants, come
over here, I walk over with himand he pulls it out and he
starts target practice and itpiles the cow manure where Holy
cow it shoots away.

Speaker 1 (15:45):
Where was this in Columbia?
Yeah, oh, geez.

Speaker 2 (15:48):
Yeah, this was down on this farm, down below Valle
de Par in the valley Right.
So it gets dark before I takeoff and there's a lot of
lightning and all Valle de Parwas.
Whenever I went over ValueDepart Airport it was almost
flooded.
But I'm coming back now.

(16:10):
I load up and Coach Ann'strying to tell me to spend the
night, which we don't have.
I couldn't speak much Spanishthen and still can't a little
bit, and he couldn't speak anyEnglish, but I could tell he was
telling me that I was crazy ivyon loco and all that.
But I knew the people waswaiting on me and I didn't want

(16:32):
to get off playing.
So I took off, heading back and, uh, going through the
lightning actually was a helpbecause you know that's a valley
but it's a big valley.
You've got Venezuela on theright and then Santa Madre or
whatever Nevada's on the left,snow-capped mountains I thought

(16:54):
that was sand on top of themountain.
I flew over to look at it.
I said you know, that's not sand, that's, you know, old country
boy, you know, and that was onmy second trip, because I
couldn't see him on my firsttrip.
The second trip it was clearand I seen it's clear all the
way down.
I seen, uh, I said, well,there's some clouds, finally

(17:15):
gonna get into a little weather.
And I got there wasn't clouds,it was a snow-capped mountains.
But back to.
So I'm coming out of the valleyheading home and the lightning
lit up the mountains a lot so Icould stay in the valley.
And then whenever I got overRio Hacha out in the Caribbean

(17:39):
Sea, it cleared up for probably100, 150 miles and I get back in
a whole bunch of weather againand the airplane starts
backfiring and it's raining sohard.
I don't see how the windshieldscan stay in the plane.
I'm bouncing all over the place.

(18:00):
My instrument panel's blurred.
You can't focus on theinstrument panel and I found out
what that is is you're gettingso violent that it's just your
eyeballs are bouncing up anddown in the socket and it's
distorting them, and that's whyyou it gets, everything gets
blurry.
And I found out one thing thenthat an airplane is a lot

(18:24):
stronger than what you think itis, as long as you keep it right
side up and at the right speed.
It'll take a lot of punishment.
I hadn't tore one up in the airyet and I went through a lot of
stuff.

Speaker 1 (18:36):
Let me ask you this, though so you were hooked up
with the guy that you hadoriginally been approached by
the feds, and he gave you, let'ssay, an offer you couldn't
refuse, right, okay, so how didI mean?
Had you flown out of thecountry before?

Speaker 2 (18:55):
Oh, I'd been to the Bahamas and Nassau, All right so
you had taken other trips?

Speaker 1 (18:59):
Yeah, I flew gamblers down there.

Speaker 2 (19:01):
I was several thousand hours at the time I
started.
Oh, okay, all right.
I was several thousand hours atthe time I started.
Oh okay, All right.

Speaker 1 (19:05):
I'd been—.
But this was your first time toColumbia right.

Speaker 2 (19:08):
Right.

Speaker 1 (19:09):
So obviously you encountered the elements on
flying and you just describedwell and that Were you nervous
about going into— I mean,columbia wasn't as known as it
is now, or was Now.
It's Mexico, yeah, back then.

(19:29):
So was there any apprehensionlike in your mind, like who's
the big boss down there?
Who am I working for?
Or are you just strictly?

Speaker 2 (19:39):
dealing with the guy.
You didn't deal with them atall.
I'm going on what my partnerstold me to do up here and I was
apprehensive and all that andconcerned.
But I knew, if I was going todo it, that that didn't help
being concerned or apprehensiveand all that.
But I've told people before Isaid panic will kill you, but

(20:04):
being concerned or a littlescared.

Speaker 1 (20:08):
Keep you alert, right .

Speaker 2 (20:10):
Yeah, that's your friend.

Speaker 1 (20:11):
So when you did this, obviously there was no money
laundering laws or anything inthe United States back in the
mid-'70s.
How did you get paid for doingthis?
What was the procedure for?
Would you bring back money fromColombia or would you get paid
here in the States?
Paid?

Speaker 2 (20:30):
here in the States.
Okay, In fact, on that firsttrip I made almost $10,000.
Okay.

Speaker 1 (20:37):
Which was quite a amount of money in the 70s.

Speaker 2 (20:40):
That's probably— that's almost a year from where
I was salary.

Speaker 1 (20:44):
Yeah, that's like probably over $100,000 today
with the inflation.

Speaker 2 (20:51):
I was paying my bills and everything getting caught
up and all I had to borrow $300from my friend, mike that bought
the airplane.
To get me through to our nextdeal.
I took my wife on a littlevacation.
She was working for the schoolsystem and so we bought a Buick

(21:14):
Riviera, bought her a car downpayment and she got it financed.
I was off and running.
I couldn't wait to do it again.
But getting back to that firstone, if anything was going to
discourage me it would have beenthat one, because now I'm

(21:34):
coming back, it's backfiring.
I'm in all that weather and I'mthinking well, this is it.
They're going to wonder whathappened to me.
It's going to, you know, it'sgoing to be hard on my family
and blah, blah, blah.
And that I kept going, it keptbackfiring and I kept going.
And then my next thing after Ipassed and I'd often wondered

(21:57):
about this when I was flying thegamblers is the smugglers at
nighttime.
How did they see the water onthese dark nights?
How did they know they're nottoo low or too high or whatever?
And so I figured out how to dothat.
When I got to Freeport, I stayedoff the coast heading towards

(22:23):
West End, off the coast headingtowards West End, and I used the
lights of Freeport and alongthat road going to West End to
judge my height above the water.
And I'm going down, I'm gettinglower, getting lower, getting
lower and the airplane backfiredreal big and it flashed back

(22:43):
off of the ocean, the water.
You know.
I got a flashback and so I saidI'm a little too low with the
reflecting back off the waterlike that.
So I pulled the airplane up tolike 50 more feet, set my
altimeter at zero, set the trimtab a little nose up In case I

(23:06):
relaxed it would go up insteadof set it down.
And when I got back to the placethat I was supposed to land,
which was a field, it was foggy,it was daylight, it took like
20-something hours, 24, 25 hoursto round-trip that and I was

(23:31):
fogged out.
But you could look straightdown.
The fog wasn't that thick, youcould look straight down and see
the ground.
So I knew our little airstripreform was due south of Live Oak
Airport.
Our little airstrip reform wasdue south of Live Oak Airport
and I looked over at I could seeoff of US-90, it goes east and

(23:51):
west a microwave tower.
I could see the top of thattower sticking out of the fog.
So I knew where I was at.
I got to that tower, I knewwhere I was at.
I followed 90, flying, lookingstraight out the window,
straight down, and I get to LiveOak Airport.
I turn 100th to Deuce All andI'm looking straight down and I

(24:16):
make that circuit probably 15times.
And I said I was saying tomyself well, I don't really know
how I'm going because you can'tsee forward.
All I could see was down.
If I fly over the strip, Idon't really know how I'm going
to get in.
And when I did finally fly overand look down and see it, I

(24:41):
said I just don't know what.
I can't lose this, I cannottake my eyes off of this field.
And I did basically a barrelroll, loop, a loop and barrel
roll.
I said I'm going into thatfield.
If I crash they'll get the pot,if I break out under the.

(25:01):
you know I'll land, we'll seewhat happens.
But I know I'm going to be onthe ground somewhere real soon
because I'm running out of fuel.
So luckily the Lord was with me, I guess you could say, because
I've.
When I came around, I'd go downin fog.
I can't see nothing, andwhenever I finally do break out

(25:25):
and see the ground, I'm off tothe right of the run where I was
going to land that we had made,and so the thing I had to do
was my biggest concern then wasmaking the left turn to get back
on the strip, was sticking mywing in the ground, because I
was that low whenever I brokeout, I mean, it was a perfect

(25:48):
loop and barrel roll.
Just you know, or I wouldn't behere right now.
And so I unloaded, everybody'shappy and all that, and then a
few days later I get my moneyand start paying on.
I can't wait to do it again.
And the next trip was acomplete opposite of that trip,

(26:12):
because there wasn't a cloud inthe sky the whole way down or
back and I got there earlybecause of that and there was
nobody there at the strip.

Speaker 1 (26:23):
The coach in and then wasn't there.

Speaker 2 (26:24):
There was cows all over the strip and I'm ready to
get out.

Speaker 1 (26:29):
Right, you get to wonder what's happening.

Speaker 2 (26:31):
Yeah, I'm ready to get out and stretch my legs and
what have you.
And so I see the cows.
I said there's a bunch of cowshere here and there's a clearing
between the next bunch.
I said if I come in right overthem I think I can get stopped
before I get to the next ones.
Well, I hit the this one cowand, uh, I hit a.

(26:53):
Perfectly.
I hit him just right on theback because it just went.
Boom, I just skipped right offof him and it broke his back,
killed the cow.
So they got him some hamburgersdown there on that and hit a
cow on the way down.
Boom, I just skipped right offof him and it broke his back,
killed the cow so they got himsome hamburgers down there on
that.
You hit a cow on the way downLanding, yeah.
And so when they loaded thatairplane they had a machete and

(27:18):
paper.
I took the right yoke off so Icould could fill the co-pilot
side up.
I'd stowed the rudder paddlesfill the tunnel up there.
Field set on the uh dash, hadit, it's completely full.
I'm sitting in there like this.
I got my seat all the way upwith marijuana inside.

(27:38):
Yeah, just completely encasedit's completely I didn't have.
I took for survival equipment,I took a one gallon of water and
for a flotation I took a skivest that you use in the lake
and for a bathroom I had agatorade jar to relieve myself.

Speaker 1 (27:58):
Sounds like an agent on surveillance.
You know, we had a pee jarbecause we couldn't get out.
We had Gatorades, power bars,all these things with us and we
never knew where you'd end up.
Because we had a suitcase inthe trunk with about three days'
worth of supplies, Because wehad people.

(28:20):
They'd move it to Houston ortake it to New York and you went
with them.
But it got more sophisticatedbecause we got handoffs.
You know, on the I-10 corridor,there we went from sack office
or rack office to each one.
But I can imagine that.
So you started bringing thesein.

(28:41):
You did you get to know thepeople that were loading down
there?
Were they the same people?

Speaker 2 (28:47):
yes, okay, I loaded three times down there and and
then, uh, a fella has got.
Uh, he wants me to go, he's gothis.
Uh, we bought a twin, an oldbeach twin, bonanza, and a
fellow wanted to use a hangerthat we had in Moultrie and we

(29:09):
told him, we said, look, thehanger's hot.
I said they had an old.
This is at Spenceville.
They had an old tower there andyou could see a tripod up there
pointed at our hanger.
And it said they're on us andthey'd come by.
The police would come by everynow and then and just stop and
chat with us.
And so we told the fellow thatwanted to use the hangar hey,

(29:32):
you can use it, but it's hot.
We got out of there.
He comes in there with a 401 andblows a tire and by the time he
gets his tire fixed and allthat.
He says man, you're right, Iwas wanting to use the hanger to
bladder the 401.
And all of a sudden he says Igot Quaaludes down in Managua,

(29:52):
nicaragua, I need picking up.
He said you want to go get them?
I said sure, I didn't even knowwhat a Quaalude was, it was an
Aurora 714s.
And I asked Charlie.
I said what are these thingsanyway.
He said it's like drinking afifth of whiskey you take one of
them, that's all they are.
He says he's going to give us100 grand to go down there and

(30:17):
do that and my part would be$25,000.
So I'm tickled to death.
I've done doubled my money.
And so he says, just fly downthere and go right into Managua
International.
He says they'll take you rightthrough customs and immigrations
.
They won't stamp your passport,nothing.
You go to the motel there Ithink it was the Rio Camille

(30:41):
Motel right off the airportperimeter.
So I go there and sleep andthey got the Quaaludes in their
adjoining room in boxes and sothe next day they load up all
the Quaaludes.
What year was this?

Speaker 1 (30:55):
What year was this?
78.
So this is when the Sandinistastook over.

Speaker 2 (31:00):
Oh, you could hear this, daniel.

Speaker 1 (31:01):
Ortega, and that crew came into power.

Speaker 2 (31:05):
They were still fighting.
You could hear the machine gunsand the mortars and all that.
There's a heavy militarypresence and all at the airport,
which concerned me a little bitbecause my airplane's sitting
on the ramp.
And here we come in aVolkswagen van, it's loaded with
boxes.
We get to the gate and there'stwo guys there, military, with

(31:27):
their guns and all their riflesand all that.
And I'm saying, well, matt, ifwe get through here, and he
talks to them in Spanish and allthat, and they open the gates.
We go out to the airplane, loadthe airplane up and I tell them
.
I say, look, it's too early forme to leave Now.
I'll load the airplane up and Itell him.
I said, look, it's too earlyfor me to leave to now, I'll get
back too early that I'msupposed to be back.

(31:47):
I got to be back at a certaintime and he says, well, we'll
just go back to and havebreakfast and you leave when you
get ready.
And the airplane was old,everybody wouldn't lock.
I said I can't even lock thisairplane, you know.
He said, don't worry about it,ain't nobody gonna mess with it.
And I I said, all right, let'sgo.
We went and ate and then messedaround a little, killed a
little bit of time, and then Iget in the airplane, fly back to

(32:09):
Lake City and unload at theLake City Airport about 11.30,
12 o'clock, something like that.
Get my money, and I can't waitto do it again.
And the next time the airportwas staked out.

Speaker 1 (32:29):
So let me ask you this so when you landed in
Managua, it was all controlled.
It was Ortega's people thatjust got.
No, it was Somoza, somoza's,really.

Speaker 2 (32:40):
Somoza was still in power then they were still
fighting and who exactly?
From what I understood laterthat some fellow in Miami was
the actual fellow that took caredown there.
I can't remember what theycalled him, mr something, anyway
but he was the one that had thekey to get in and out down

(33:04):
there the way we did.
And so the next time I go downand when I get there,
everything's going the same waybut the pill machine breaks down
.
They don't have the pills,which was a blessing for us,
more than likely the way, Ithink, things went down.

(33:27):
So I'm there another day andthe pill machine breaks again.
I'm there about three or fourdays in this motel waiting on
them to get the load up.
I mean I felt like theyshouldn't have called us until
they had it, and it's supposedto be $350,000.
Well, I asked them the lasttime when it broke.

(33:50):
I said how much have you allgot?
He said we've got $300,000.
I said, well, I'm going, becauseI had took a friend of mine
that I had flew with a lot, whohad just been up in Alaska doing
flying bush up in Alaska.
He was wanting to get involvedand so he was going to go with
me on this trip and he getsantsy down there.

(34:12):
He says I'm going to take theplane and go back.
I says you're not.
I says you're going on.
If you go back, it'll be theairliner or with me.
I says you don't get no moneyfor going back empty and that's
when I decided to uh, go andtake 300 000.
So we loaded that and we comeback like four days late land

(34:36):
and the trucks coming down theramp to get us.
He flashes a light and turnsaround and leaves.
I said man that's strange what'sgoing on.
And I look out at the road andwe had Mike, the guy that had
the 210.
He was supposed to be theblocker, and there's a car right

(34:57):
behind him and he stops in thedeceleration lane or turn lane.
He stops and gets out and hestops in the deceleration lane
or turn lane, he stops and getsout and he's talking to this
fella.
And then mike gets back in hiscar and he leaves and the fella
that he's talking to, in thisbrown torino with ohio license
plates on it, comes out onto theramp and goes all the way down
looking at all the airplanes.

(35:18):
If i'd,000 quaaludes it wouldhave been above the windows, but
the airplane looked empty fromwhere he was sitting.
Yeah, so he goes all the waydown and turns around and is
coming back, and my buddy hadhis car at the airport.
So we sneak around through hereand we get in the car, his car,

(35:41):
and it cranks up and we'repulling out on the highway, stop
on the highway and the police,the undercover police, fella, he
pulls up right beside us and Isaid, hey, how you doing he's,
and he followed us.
When he followed us, that'swhen the guys went back in and
got the uh, got the quaaludes,and I feel like that they had

(36:06):
probably more people at thatstakeout than just one person,
and you know, and they said, man, he's gone and went somewhere
else or he's not coming, or youknow, and so they just left that
one guy there.
I mean, I'm not sure, I don'tknow, but that's what it seems
like to me, and if he hadn'thave followed us, it would have

(36:27):
been a mess out there.

Speaker 1 (36:31):
Yeah, so when you came back you had Quaaludes and
that and marijuana.
Where did you go in other trips?
I mean, we're going to talkabout how you got involved and
did you meet some of theorganizational people that were

(36:52):
in Columbia eventually, or whatlevel did you?
What organization was involvedwith your smuggling?
I'm not sure.

Speaker 2 (37:01):
See, that's an interesting answer.
Yeah, I met the biggest, Iguess fella I ever met was in
prison.
Fabio Ochoa.

Speaker 1 (37:12):
Yeah, that's about as big as you can get back then.

Speaker 2 (37:14):
A little guy and he's a real nice, courteous fella.
Yeah, and I would have liked tohave met him earlier.

Speaker 1 (37:22):
Yeah, and I would have liked to have met him
earlier.
Yeah, and did you.
You met, because it was Ochoaand Carlos.
Later you met him, did you meethim?
Oh?

Speaker 2 (37:29):
Carlos, yeah, he, I'm not in prison.
I met him.
He used to get his airplaneworked on at the same place.
I did at Keystone Heights withBarney Kim and Barney had his
hangar there and he had a couch,a TV and a chair For our
viewers.

Speaker 1 (37:48):
where is this.

Speaker 2 (37:49):
Keystone Heights Airport.

Speaker 1 (37:50):
Okay, and where is that?
In North Florida, okay.

Speaker 2 (37:56):
It's between Gainesville and Jacksonville,
and if Carlos got there firstbefore me, he'd be on the couch
and I'd get the chair.
And if I got there first I'dget the couch and he'd have to
be on the chair and we didn'thardly speak at all or anything.
There was a lot of smugglers wewere using there and everybody

(38:20):
kept quiet.
Everybody knew what everybodywas doing, but nobody would get
in it.
And Barney he was.
he would hook you up with him,you know hey, this guy's wanting
to know if you'll uh, he knowsyou know things like that.
And I ran into Carlos again inum Great Inaugural fueling up
and that's's.

(38:40):
Personally I didn't like theguy.
He was kind of overbearing,like you could have three or
four airplanes in there gettingfueling, and he acted like he
was the only one there.
You know, hey, I'm first, I do,you know, and all that, and
I've never liked people likethat.

Speaker 1 (38:59):
The me first.
Mentality yeah me first.
Y'all or nothing, yeah yeah,but Ochoa you met later on in
prison okay and that I'm surethat was an interesting meeting
we'll we'll talk about.
Okay, so you were, you wereinto this.
Now, obviously you liked themoney because you hadn't seen

(39:23):
this before as an airportmanager or anything.
That's a big jump.

Speaker 2 (39:35):
I've never had.

Speaker 1 (39:36):
Your lifestyle changed right.

Speaker 2 (39:37):
Yeah, I never had $1,000 of my own to do with what
I wanted to in my life untilthen.
Now I've I've gotten money andbefore and a little later on,
the biggest thing about themoney was is uh, uh is counting
it.
You know, in fact, years later,dealing with a lot of the

(40:03):
people we dealt with and dealtwith them so much, they would
say, hey, randy, bring me money.
And he'd say, look, he says Ididn't count it.
He says so-and-so counted it.
He said he counted it and hesays it's there.
He says you want to count it,you count it.
Let me know if it's over orunder or whatever.

(40:24):
I'll make it right.
And that's the way we dealt.
And, if you think about it,real honest people some of them,
some of them not I ran into theones that were not and I cut
them loose because I'm not goingto deal with somebody, somebody
like that.
It's like when you're in prison, you're playing handball with

(40:46):
somebody that cheats.

Speaker 1 (40:47):
You don't play with them, no more yeah, you know,
and you're the philosophy Idon't like a liar and a chief a
thief right you know that,that's quite the exactly, and I
mean I've had people listen.

Speaker 2 (41:01):
That book there Take off was a quarter million
dollars worth of pot and it gaveme the money and he don't like
it.
I said, well, bring it back.
Here's your money back.
And I even told him down there.
I said I'll bring it back downthere to you.
You know, we just keep doingbusiness.
You know, keep this trainrolling.

Speaker 1 (41:21):
Yeah, you know, keep this train rolling.
Yeah, so you had a refundpolicy, but you know if you
stole from you, that was the end, oh yeah that was the end.

Speaker 2 (41:31):
that's what happened to Charlie on our third trip to
get quaaludes wasn't going toManagua, would be going to Corn
Island and that's off the coast.
And charlie, he didn't have apilot's license but he went and
learned how to fly and he hadflew down with me on the first
load and he's calling.
He's saying well, I'm, we'regetting it ready, getting ready,

(41:54):
it's on hold, it's on hold.
And the next thing the fella inatlanta calls us hey, man,
where's charlie?
Anybody seen charlie?
And and a fella from miami callsus looking for Charlie, looking
for Charlie.
And he says I loaned Charlie,the guy in Miami, I loaned
Charlie money to buy an airplane.
He's going to pay for it inQuaaludes.
And the guy in Atlanta, Iloaned Charlie money to buy an

(42:15):
airplane.
So Charlie was just crooked, asyou can be.
He's getting money from thisdude and getting money from
another fellow and he can't fly,he don't have no experience.
He goes down there, he getslost, can't find Corn Island,
lands in Bluefields and getslocked up.
And we cut him loose after that.

(42:37):
Good business practice, right,it's a liability.

Speaker 1 (42:45):
It's a liability for the business.
How did you come aboutattracting the attention of law
enforcement?
How did that come out?
You were doing this, and howlong did you do this before you
attracted the attention.

Speaker 2 (42:59):
Not long, not long at all.
In fact, after there's a coupleof things happened.
We were at a, you know we wererookies I was and my friend Mike
.
We were sitting in a restaurantand Mike was real hard of
hearing so people are hard ofhearing talk loud and we're

(43:19):
sitting in a restaurant andhe's's talking.
We're talking about hey man, wewere happy we just done one and
all that.
And I see a fellow that thenext highway patrolman sitting
over there and I could tell he'skind of trying to hear what we
call in prison ear hustling.
He's trying to overhear us andI'm telling my men.

Speaker 1 (43:42):
We call that for you country, guys, rabbit ears.
Like you've been in a field andyou hear noise, it's the ears
that pop up above the grassRabbit ears, go ahead.

Speaker 2 (43:54):
He was rabbit earing and I knew it and we wound up.
I didn't find out this untillater, way later.
We wound up.
They followed me around forlike two weeks.
I didn't even know it and weran a load.
In the middle of all that and Ihad a friend north of Lake City.

(44:18):
They have the inspectionstation.
You know, agricultureinspection station, a pickup
truck, all that stuff issupposed to pull in for
inspection and all, and the waythe rivers are around there you
can't get out of the statewithout going through one of
them and so a lot of people getsbusted there.
I had a friend that owned landright across from the inspection

(44:40):
station, like 14,000 acres, andso we hunted there and we would
go towards the inspectionstation, turn off, get on his
property and go through hisproperty around the inspection
station and then back on thehighway and on to Detroit's

(45:00):
where he was selling the pot.
And we'd done it while we werebeing surveilled and the people.
Mike lived up that way close tothe inspection station and he
was going to town and you couldsee a bunch of skid marks and

(45:23):
all on the road and he uh foundout from some people that lived
down around what area?
Deep creek, uh, that it was.
Some police were heading northat a high rate of speed and hit
some hogs, so it appears we weresaved by the hogs and they

(45:45):
would come on the 14,000 acresand follow you?
no, they were didn't make it tothe 14,000 oh, they hit the hogs
.
They hit the hogs on the on thehighway before going to the,
trying to follow us and therewas no aerial surveillance back
then.
Right, because there could havebeen, but there wasn't, not
that you were aware of.
Yeah, the local, yeah.

Speaker 1 (46:05):
But they hit the hogs .

Speaker 2 (46:07):
They hit the hogs, tore the car up, wow.
So I feel like we were saved bythe pill machine breaking down
and delaying us there, right,and then saved again by the hogs
.
And then we find out you knowthat we are being people.
You know they had talked tosome people and the people had

(46:28):
tipped us off, said, hey, man,we're getting.
In fact, my neighbor, a friendof mine's aunt, lived next door
to me and he's over at my house.
Me and him are standing out inthe front yard talking and his

(46:53):
uh, aunt sees him over there.
So I get a call a little lateron from him at the meeting and I
go to him.
He he says hey, look, my auntlives next door to you, says the
FDLE and all them they want tosit up in her house to surveil
you.
She told me to stay away fromyou, so I said okay.

(47:17):
So that's when I first found outthat she wouldn't let them.
So they went across the street.
Behind the houses across thestreet there was empty lots back
there.
They set up back there and tookpictures of the house and I had
a lot of good pictures of thehouse and the car and what have
you.
And when we went to court onthis, I got charged with

(47:40):
racketeering for this deal Rightaway.
Not right away, no, it was acouple of years later or a year
and something later I'm chargedwith racketeering and yeah.

Speaker 1 (47:56):
So this was the federal recall statute, as we
call it.

Speaker 2 (47:59):
State State recall, right the state I was indicted
by the special grand jury thatwas in panel for drug smuggling.
We were the last peopleindicted.
I had a governor-appointedjudge and a governor-appointed
prosecutor and they used, theykept when we were getting all

(48:22):
our discovery this is kind offunny they used a.
They told the grand jury, hey,we got films of them.
You know, up in Moulter Georgiawe have films that took and all
that.
So we wanted to see the film.
They said, well, we won't letyou see that because we're not
going to use it.
We said, we don't care whereyou it, we might want to use it,

(48:42):
you know.
And so then they tried to say,well, it's not compatible.
And we wound up sending it outto California and getting it
where we could put it on a VHS.
And we brought that VHS back andthey had a time lapse of about
I don't know how much it was ona two or three hour VHS, it must

(49:06):
have been several weeks becauseeverything was going fast and
they had it in that oldabandoned tower, aircraft
control tower where they'd setup with that tripod I'd
mentioned earlier.
So they had a telescope on it.
It was a telescopic and it wasthe funniest looking thing
you've ever seen.

(49:26):
It'd be getting night and thenit'd be daytime and it'd be
nighttime again and at daytimepeople would be coming and going
in and out of their cars.
Doors, open doors, close,airplane going airplane back.
This, that and the other.
And the star of the show was afly and the star of the show was
a fly.
The fly comes buzzing in thereand sits down.
He sits down on the lens.

(49:50):
Are you kidding me?
Yeah, and he's a giant fly nowon this telescopic lens and he
kicks his back legs up and hedoes his little dance and all
that.
And you can see through thosewings with all the veins and all
that and we're watching that.

Speaker 1 (50:04):
How long was the fly on?

Speaker 2 (50:05):
there A pretty good while he takes off, and then you
say, oh well, about time we getthrough laughing here.
He comes back, sits down thereagain, he does his another jig
and we ain't watching what'sgoing on, we're watching the fly
.
And we said then said, well, nowonder they're not going to use
this in court.
Yeah, have the whole courtroombe broken up.

Speaker 1 (50:25):
Today they could have probably eliminated the fly.
You know, with the technologynow, it wouldn't have been so
funny.
It would have been screened off.
Yeah, okay, so you got indictedfor RICO on the state level and
what happened?

Speaker 2 (50:40):
well, charlie, the guy that we cut loose, he's
busted up in or somewhere aroundDothan, alabama, I can't
remember exactly what they.
They brought in a, uh, aconstellation up there and, uh,
he got busted.
And so that's the first timeI'd heard of the Federal Witness

(51:05):
Protection Program.
He gets put on the FederalWitness Protection Program and
he's got only two things he'sgot immunity on anything he
talks about, but he can't lieand he can't have a murder.
If you're murdering anybody,don't tell them, you know and
don't lie.

(51:25):
Well, he's on where it's hardto get a deposition from him
because he's being controlled sotightly as security.
And so we're having in front ofthe judge, we're having
depositions because they'rehaving so much.
You know we're going to have to, we object and blah, blah, blah

(51:48):
and they brought in anotherfella that they had went and
this was back.
They put this predicate act onour indictment.
It was the judge smith wheneverhe gave it a supposedly gave a
destruction order to destructsome pot and they carried it out
there and didn't destruct itthey, but it was the feds pot

(52:12):
and they had cameras on them.
It was foggy, camera didn't getpick up, nothing but fog.
So the guys, when they came tothe dump to load the pot.
They got away with it.
It had a bug on it and Charlie,whenever they went to federal
court, charlie was the only onethat beat the trial, that beat

(52:33):
his case, and he told them thathe had just loaned them the
truck and I was standing out atthe gate.
He said I don't know what theywas doing in there.
And they knew somebody was atthe gate as a lookout, but it
wasn't Charlie.
And so they asked Charlie, didyou handle any pot?

(52:53):
No, did you see any pot?
No, nothing.
No, nothing about it.
He just come clean.
So that's the story he gavethem in federal court and he
beat the case.
Well, he had told me how he beatit.
You know, with his story.
I knew what his story was.
I told my lawyer I saysquestion him about that.
I said he's either gonna lienow and you know, stay with his

(53:17):
old lie or tell the truth.
And if tells the truth, he'salways lying in, he's a liar and
you know this and I knew him isgonna stick with his old story.
So he gets up there and hetells the same story that he
told me.
I was at the gate, I didn'tknow nothing.
They I didn't handle no pot,didn't see no pot and all that.

(53:37):
Well, they called hisco-defendant in there next and
we're talking to him and askedhim.
They said how much pot was that?
Now this guy got convicted.
He says we don't know.
We never really got to weigh itbecause it got busted, you know
later on.
And he says well, did Charliehandle any of the pot?

(54:02):
And he says yeah.
He says well, how many poundsdid he?
He said I don't know.
I told you all.
He says well, what percent didhe handle?
He said all of it.
He says what do you mean?
All of it?
He said well, I've taken it offto you, hall, and handed it to
him.
He's putting it in the truck.
Judge says hold it.

(54:25):
And my lawyer says Judge calleda recess.
My lawyer says I can tell whatthey're going to do.
They're going to force a dealon us.
And I said I had Bill Shepardfor a long time.
I said Bill, how can they forceit?
I said I think we're winningnow.
This thing's turning around.
How can they force it?
I said I think we're winningnow.
This thing's turning around.
How can they force a deal on us?
He says they can make it sogood you can't turn it down.

(54:48):
I said, well, let's hear it.
And they charged me a $40,000fine, two years all suspended,
but nine months.
And I already had six months ofit done pre-trial in jail.
So he says you'll be home byChristmas and it'll be work
release.
I said, well, let's do it.

(55:08):
And so I've pled no lowcontender and was sentenced to
two years all suspended, butnine months.
What have you?
I go from looking at 30 yearsbecause Charlie lied and that
was a good thing.

Speaker 1 (55:27):
Charlie and the fly.

Speaker 2 (55:29):
Charlie and the fly, yeah.

Speaker 1 (55:33):
So what happened after that?
When you went home, how longwere you incarcerated the first
time?

Speaker 2 (55:40):
Actual, maybe a couple months, uh, halfway house
six months, uh, pre-trial, andthen uh like three more months,
or I got a little good at gametime, it was less than a year,
and uh, then I got another youdidn't have a bond on pre-trial
no yeah, $750,000.

Speaker 1 (56:02):
Wow, so that means they've got to put down $75,000,
right, right, 10%.

Speaker 2 (56:07):
And then you've got to do that.
I could have done it, but theywere going to keep the money.

Speaker 1 (56:12):
Sure, there was no.

Speaker 2 (56:13):
All that, that wouldn't work.

Speaker 1 (56:16):
I worked hard for that Source of the funds Right.

Speaker 2 (56:28):
I got you of funds, right, right, and so I said we
tried to get.
Uh, I had a, uh, my mama'suncle, he was a millionaire and
all and he was a preacher also,and so, uh, he, uh, she went to
him about you know, hey, hecould just put it all up, land,
whatever and whatever.
And he says he's praying for meand that's it.
And I said okay, thanks, yeah,but you know, I'd done real good

(56:52):
in jail.
I mean, I sued Suwannee CountyJail and they moved me to
another jail that was built inthe 1800s, had a hanging tower
in it and everything.
They moved me to another jailthat was built in the 1800s, had
a hanging tower in it andeverything.
And we this is a story aboutthey had a new section to it for
juveniles and women that theyhad closed up and used it to

(57:14):
store pot because it's HamiltonCounty Jail and Hamilton County
was right at where the I-10inspection station was, so
they're catching semi-loads,everything at the inspection
station.
So they needed a big place touh.
So they put this in the jail inthe in the uh.

(57:36):
They closed down the uhjuvenile and women's part of the
jail and they put it in there.
Holy rock.
And it was right next to thecatwalk.
It was a catwalk and we had ashower in one of the cells and
we could stick.
This is how we found out thedadgum water stuck and it
wouldn't turn off.

(57:56):
So they got us and they said,opened up down the catwalk
around here and we unplugged theuh got the shower to stop and
on our way there, the bean holeswe call them bean holes, where
you stick the food in to thething uh, look in there, bells
of hot.
So here we go, we're stickingthe shower.

(58:19):
Now we're getting uh stuck onpurpose.
There he goes and we're goingand loading pillowcases up with
marijuana, and so we, you know,make our stay a little better.
And they bring some pain.

Speaker 1 (58:34):
So it gives new myth of the fox in the hen house.

Speaker 2 (58:36):
Yeah, that's exactly, and this is where we went wrong
.
This is what happened to us.

Speaker 1 (58:41):
So how did?
On a side note, how did theyfind out about it?
I'm getting ready to tell you,Okay.

Speaker 2 (58:48):
They bring some painters in there to paint you
know, I guess they're going tohave an inspection or something
and these painters come in thereand we're smoking pot in there
and everything, and the painterswe don't have no whiskey, so
we're needing some whiskey, sowe're trading pot for whiskey.
The painters is bringing thiswhiskey and they get busted out

(59:09):
there selling the pot and sothat shuts us down.
Uh, pot coming from the jailboy.
They come back there, goes forthe talking to, and the bean
holes they we can't reach inthere no more.
They got them blocked off.
But luckily we had a wholepillowcase load of pot thrown up
on top of the drunk tank and sowe wasn't out of pot.

(59:29):
So we was, but our whiskeydried up.

Speaker 1 (59:35):
Yeah, that's a new one for me.
I have stories with themarshals with, like in federal
prison, the Church of the NewSong that allowed winemaking.
You know what I'm talking aboutand you know fraternization and
like Lexington and stuff likethat.
So it's kind of interesting.

(59:56):
This is stuff they don't talkabout on television shows and
you know the war on drugs andeverything else.
It's the reality.
That's why we're doing thisshow.

Speaker 2 (01:00:08):
Let me go back.

Speaker 1 (01:00:09):
So you got out, and what happened then?

Speaker 2 (01:00:12):
Well, let's see, I've already been locked up in
Jamaica so we can back up.
That was my first bus downthere and I was flying for the
same guy I was talking to youabout earlier that wanted me to
talk to people to tell them howto do it.
I get down to the airport thatwe had been working out of, down

(01:00:38):
in a valley I don't know if youknow where Falmouth, jamaica is
and you go over the mountainsthere and down in a valley I
don't know if you know whereFalmouth, jamaica is over the
mountains there and down in avalley, we'd load up but the
police would go with dynamiteand they blew holes in the strip
.
So they say we're going tochange strips and so they want

(01:00:58):
me to go down there and look atit.
And I go down there and look atit and heck, it's a paved
runway.
All this.
It's got a mountain, you know,a little in the distance off of
one end.
And I told them yeah, sure, Ican come in here.
4,000-foot strip, no problem,load up.
They said well, they said it'sgot to be on Friday night after

(01:01:21):
9 o'clock.
I said, good, I'll see y'allFriday night.
After 9 o'clock they said theywas going to have it lit up with
flashlights and all that.
And I told them I says I'mgoing to land going towards the
mountain and we'll load up downon that end and take off going
away from the mountain and keepthe mountain out of play.

(01:01:41):
So when I came in and got therethat night there was nobody
there.
They didn't have it lit up andI wasn't sure if I couldn't see
the thing.
So I flew down, I flew past, Isaid I'm too far, I'm down
towards Montego Bay and all.
I come back, nothing.
And I'm getting mad becausethat airplane that I had was an

(01:02:02):
Excalibur Twin Bonanza and ithad real tight nacelles,
low-dragging nacelles, and youfly it slow, the oil temperature
and cylinder head temperaturewould heat up.
And so I'm flying slow and I'mheating the airplane up and all
this and I'm planning on I gotround-trip fuel.
I'm planning on just landing,opening the door, loading up and
going.
So finally I come by.

(01:02:23):
I see they gottrip fuel.
I'm planning on just landing,opening the door, loading up and
going.
So finally I come by.
I see they got it lit up.
So I come in, I go all the waydown to the end, nothing.
I turn around and I come backto the other end and I see them
bringing in the pot, a line ofpeople.
They don't have all the pot inyet.
Guy runs over to me and says,hey, you're going to have to

(01:02:43):
shut it off.
He says it's going to be aminute or two, which I never
shut off in Jamaica, no moreafter this, and so I cut the
thing off.
I may as well get out and checkthe oil.
I got out and checked the oil,all that, and they're getting it
loaded, and this airplane thebladder was putting a pot on top

(01:03:07):
of the bladder and so when Igot in they had packed me in and
so I couldn't get back to thedoor until I'd burned the gas
down.
Then I could crawl over the topof the pot.
So I crawled in.
They packed me in and he comesaround.
Got a little storm winded there.
He comes around and says buddysays we still got a couple of

(01:03:29):
bales Anywhere we can put it.
I give him a kiss.
I said yeah, put it in the nosebaggage up there.
I said make sure you get itclosed.
Good, though, because I don'twant that thing coming open when
I'm taking off or anything, orin flight.
So he goes in.
Yeah, we got it in.
He comes back, hands me the key.
I turn the master switch on.
I got my hand on the starterand first thing I see is fire

(01:03:51):
jumping out the barrel of theshotgun.
And here it, and then it soundslike a firefight.
Jamaicans running everywherescreaming, shooting the guy.
I look out the window, he's gotthe shotgun pointed right at me
and he's going and the sergeantwaits a guy named Sergeant

(01:04:14):
Waits.
He's screaming at this guyshooting, shooting, shoot the
SOB.
But he used the acronym there.
Shooting if he won't get outShooting, shooting.
And one of my buddies from andI'm thinking, well, this is it,

(01:04:34):
and I know what comes to yourmind Came to my mind.
I said, well, my poor two.
I had two girls and they werelike six and eight.
I said my poor girl's going tolive grow up knowing their daddy
got his brains blown out downhere over a load of pot.
And then the next thing thatcame to my mind was I hope he

(01:04:56):
gets a clean kill, because Iain't wanting to be jerking
around in here dying.
Yeah, and the only reason hedidn't shoot me, that guy just
wasn't shooting somebody in coldblood because his superior was
telling him shooting, shooting,shoot the SOB and a friend of

(01:05:17):
mine, you know that was there's,you know today with the SRTs,
and that they take people outright away.
Oh, down there the radio downthere, seaga was going against
what was the one's name?

Speaker 1 (01:05:37):
Manley, manley and Seaga was going against.

Speaker 2 (01:05:40):
What was the one's name?
Manley Manley.
And there was a lot of hey forhaving a gun down there or a
bullet's life sentence.
They got the gun present andall and so that means they're
going to use that gun.
And there was a lot of theradio down there, a lot of
violence back in that time, andhe just wouldn't shoot me.

(01:06:08):
And a guy that was from StarkFlorida, billy Griffiths.
I heard him.
He said please don't shoot thatpoor man, he can't get out of
that airplane Boy.
I took a breath and then hegoes please don't shoot that
poor man.
He says we can get him out, wecan get him out.
And they said get him out.
So he opened the back door,took a couple of bales of pot

(01:06:28):
off and I come out on my bellylike a snake and down the door
and on the ground spread eagleshotgun barrel between my
shoulder blades.
They didn't handcuff you ornothing, they just put the gun
on you.
And then they all mad at us.
What do you think you're doing?
You ain't paying us and allthat.
And we had paid.

(01:06:49):
But the guy we paid wasn'thonest.
Wow, he was an auxiliarypoliceman that was answering the
phone.
That night we found out thewhole deal he was.
He came on on friday nights andhe just sat there and answered
the phone and run the thing anda lady had seen them going in

(01:07:12):
with the pot and called him.
He told, yeah, yeah, he done hisjob.
Okay, I'm gonna call back againbecause you know it didn't.
Things wasn't going the wayit's supposed to.
I supposed to load and leaveand, uh, one of the head
policemen came up there and shecalled again and he picked the
phone up.

(01:07:33):
As soon as he picked the phoneup, they, they all jumped in the
Jeep and headed down there andbusted us and we gave in fact
I'd loaned them $15,000 for theprotection money and the guy
that I was working through, he'dgive the police sergeant $700.

(01:07:55):
And he kept the rest of themoney.
They had enough money to payeverybody.
That's what we tried to tellthem.
We said look everybody's, youknow it's too late now and I
wound up doing some time therein Roccabesa Jail and then they
moved us over after a couple ofweeks to Port Maria Jail and if

(01:08:19):
you can imagine Rockabesa, youslept on the floor, had a
garbage can for a toilet andthey bring you your food you eat
with your hands.
You ain't got nothing.

Speaker 1 (01:08:36):
No, I've heard the horror stories about that, oh
man.

Speaker 2 (01:08:40):
And to believe it, I think it can't get no worse than
this.
And they moved to Port Maria.
Oh man, everybody, all there'sjust room to lay down.
You're shoulder to shoulderlaying down in there that's how
crowded it was.
And the new guys, yourseniority is who's the least?
Seniority is over by the honeybucket, and the more seniority

(01:09:04):
you get, the further away fromthe honey bucket you get.
Yeah, and they, when you filledup, at least we beat on the
door.
I had a big wooden door.
You beat on the door and theylet you go, empty it, you know,
and come back and I seen thembeat those Jamaicans, whip them,

(01:09:25):
beat them.
Oh man, they had scars.
I mean witnessing something.
You see them on TV whipping them, being there watching it and
busting that skin open andswelling up and all being there
watching it.
It busting that skin open andswelling up and all.
And then already, them guysalready having scars all over
them from prior.
You know, I've seen a guy runout of the jail over the gun.

(01:09:48):
The man's standing thereholding the gun on him while
another man's whipping him.
It run right out over him, bust, boom, gone.
And as naive as I was hisbuddies I said man, what kind of
whipping is he going to getwhen they catch him?
And they told me, they saidhe's running for his life.

Speaker 1 (01:10:08):
They said the whipping is in here.
It would be a final chapter.

Speaker 2 (01:10:12):
Yeah, the whipping was here.

Speaker 1 (01:10:15):
They said he's running for his life.
I'm glad you touched on this.
So when you got out, you wentback, and then how did you get
into the federal system?
What happened then?

Speaker 2 (01:10:30):
Well, when I got out, we'd give some people some
money that was supposedly goingto uh, take care of thing down
there, get the airplane back,get, uh, get us out, tear all
the paperwork up and all that.
Well, that was a ripoff and I'mtrying to.
He's from fort myers, so I getout and I'm trying to find him
to get my money back.
He's gone and I said, well, Ican't, I can't, I may as well go

(01:10:53):
because my, my partners werestill down there and you can't
come out until you pay your fine.
I paid my fine and then I gotto get.
I told them, because the fellowthat we was working with, he's
on the run now.
Everything's messed up about asbad as it can mess up.
And so I got to get money.

(01:11:16):
I told them.
I said, well, I'm notabandoning y'all.
I said it's one person you candepend on.
I'm going to get the money andI'm going to get y'all out, pay
y'all's fine.
So I couldn't find the dudethat we had loaned the money to.
That's going to get us out.
Didn't loan it to him, he'sgoing to get us all out.
And then I I come up to LakeCity.

(01:11:37):
I said, well, I can make moremoney better than I can collect
money.
So when I get to Lake City, afellow comes up to Tom's bar and
he gets a hold of Tom and sayshey, I got a fellow from Daytona
, he's got a load ready rightnow and he ain't got a pilot.

(01:11:58):
Are you interested?
I said yeah, I am.
So I met him at GainesvilleAirport and he told me he says
I've got two airplanes and fivepilots.
He says I'll pay a pilot and Idon't see him again until he's
broke.
And he says how much are youwanting?
Will you run?

(01:12:19):
I told him I says every timeyou pay me, I'm ready, I'll go
again, but I'm not going to runanother one to get paid for the
other one.
I've already done that and thatdon't work so good.
And I said you as soon as youpay me.
He says were you ready to go?
He says I got one ready and Isaid yeah, he's.
I was going to tents of pen injamaica to pick up a load.

(01:12:41):
So we go to gainesville airportand in fact I got a picture of
the airplane.
My partner crashed it.
Uh, there's a twin bonanza,nine five alpha.
I uh jumped.
The first time I'd seen it, Ijumped in that airplane and
boogie, boogie, there I go andMe and the Daytona boys had a
real good.

(01:13:03):
We done real good.
I made my biggest year,according to them.
Now I didn't count them, but Isaid I was doing it because they
were trying to see how muchmoney they had paid this guy to
use his farm.
And it's 23 loads in one year.
Wow.
And my buddy from Daytona thatwould fly with me to Inagua for

(01:13:26):
the fuel stop and all he said herode with me on 45 trips and so
how I wound up with a federalbit, 45 trips, yeah, he said he
rode with me and you did 30 in ayear, 23.

Speaker 1 (01:13:47):
And how were you paid for that and how much?

Speaker 2 (01:13:49):
How was that work $50,000.
I made $1,300,000 on that 23trips.

Speaker 1 (01:13:55):
Wow, and this is what year trips.
Wow, and this is what year?

Speaker 2 (01:13:58):
1980.
Right after I got out of jailin Jamaica.

Speaker 1 (01:14:03):
Yeah, Now I'm not going to town Today.
That's unimaginable the amountof money with that.
So you know I tend to askdirect questions.
What happened to the money whenyou had that?

Speaker 2 (01:14:22):
Well, I got a lot of friends.

Speaker 1 (01:14:24):
They need money too.
You got more friends than everwhen this shit was coming
Absolutely, they come out of thewoodwork.

Speaker 2 (01:14:33):
Yeah, and I know what it's like to need money.
So I got all this money.
I don't know what to do with it.
I loan money.
I bet the banks was probablyhappy whenever I got busted, but
some people paid me back.
Some people are paying now,after I got home, and some

(01:14:59):
people never did, or in the wind.
Yeah, in the wind and lawyersjust being stupid.
Bad luck, like in there.
I pay the $100,000 train ride.
You know I go to pay for thisairplane out there.
Give them the money and I'mgoing to get it, and they keep

(01:15:21):
the money in the airplane.
The government gets it.
And I wound up and then Icrashed that plane on what they
call a crash as a forced landing, lost the engine on the island
of Hole Box, I lost the loadthere, lost the airplane, Tore
up a brand new well, it wasn'tbrand new, but it was brand new

(01:15:43):
to me Airplane on takeoff downthere and the wet strip was too
wet to get off the ground, justthings like that.
There's a I think it's RobertPalmer, they said there's no
telling where the money went.

Speaker 1 (01:16:01):
Yeah, on his song no, no, yeah, that's right, that's
right yeah, robert palmer's.

Speaker 2 (01:16:07):
She's so fine.
There's no telling where themoney went.

Speaker 1 (01:16:10):
Yeah yeah, that's right, there's a voice from the
past, robert palmer.
Um no, as far as friends it.
It works in the law enforcementcommunity the same way.
You help people and then youknow they forget you know, when
I was an agent, and they're, ohokay, so it happens like that.

(01:16:31):
You know whether it's givingsomebody an informant or running
an undercover operation andthis and that, and they end up
taking credit for it.
You know, in our world I shouldsay in my past world that's how
it goes.
It's somebody else's case, it'ssomebody else's operation and

(01:16:53):
this and that, and that pissesme off, and I'm sure you were
pissed off too.
You did this in good faith andlook what happened.
So you made this money andobviously the feds were.
You know you were giving peopleand that they got on to it.

(01:17:13):
How did they get on to this,which resulted in your
significant sentencing?

Speaker 2 (01:17:20):
Okay, my first federal bit.
I was federal prison twice.
My first federal bit is afellow had stole 40 pounds of
pot.
I had went down and broughtsome pot back from Belize and

(01:17:42):
everything was going good.
But in Atlanta he's.
In fact he was a Dixie Mafiadude.
Of course I didn't know nothingabout that until later.
That's the thing you don't everfind.
You're meeting people and youdon't really know who they are
until a little later.

Speaker 1 (01:17:58):
It wasn't Barry.

Speaker 2 (01:17:59):
Seal right.
No, no.

Speaker 1 (01:18:01):
No.

Speaker 2 (01:18:02):
And so he's buying the pot.
So I go and he's a co-defendantof mine on the racketeering,
he's in work release while he'sbuying the pot.
And so I had a friend keepingit and he had a appliance, a

(01:18:25):
used appliance thing, so we hadhis refrigerators and washers
and dryers and all that full ofpot because he had them
everywhere.
And then we're going to movethem, move a lot of the pot out,
put it on to send to Atlanta.
And the car took everything butlike one or two bales.
So they took a couple of balesand left it in a house trailer

(01:18:53):
out at a farm.
And I told them, I said thatain't enough to even worry about
.
Man, don't even this guy don'thave to sit on it, you know, and
watch it.
I said don't, don't worry aboutthat.
So he goes to town.
What have you?
And a fellow had been watching.
He ripped the.
He ripped off the pot, a littlebit of pot, and it actually

(01:19:13):
made the guy in Atlanta more madthan it did me, because it was
real extremely good pot.
I'm selling it to him for $100a pound.
He's selling it for like $800or $1,200.
He's making more money than Iam.
I'm the one smuggling.
I'll find that out later howmuch money they were making off
of it.
They're making more than I wasDouble yeah.

(01:19:36):
And he's mad because this was anextremely good pot and he's
wanting to take the guy out.
And I told him.
I said man, you can't do that.
I says this ain't AtlantaGeorgia.
He told me.
He says the world will getaround.
He said I don't want anybodymessing with your pot after this

(01:19:56):
.
I said yeah.
I said we'll be over on deathrow, you and me both.
I said he can't do that here inthis town and he said well, I'm
gonna go see him.
He goes down there and pistolwhips the guy and uh fella goes
uh straight to the police.
And there we go.
Here we go again.
They uh.

(01:20:16):
The lake city reporter calledit risky business, was the
headline.

Speaker 1 (01:20:21):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:20:23):
And I said, oh my goodness.
And we wound up.
I wound up getting nobodytestified on me that they'd seen
me with any marijuana.
So the judge kicks out.
This is where In Jacksonvilleyeah, in Jacksonville Judge
Moore and he goes, he throwsthat possession out, but he lets

(01:20:49):
the conspiracy to possess go tothe jury.

Speaker 1 (01:20:52):
So you were indicted on a dry conspiracy.
What would you call a dryconspiracy?

Speaker 2 (01:20:57):
All do you call a dry conspiracy, All of them.
And he takes and lets theconspiracy go to the jury.
And they convict me of thatbecause all the witnesses, they
all said you know, we heard itwas his, they heard it was my
pot, Somebody told them it wasmy pot, but nobody said you know
, we heard it was his, theyheard it was my pot, Somebody

(01:21:18):
told them it was my pot, butnobody could say hey, he's the
one, we seen him with the pot.
And so I'm sure the jury'sthinking you know they arrested
him.
He must have done something.
It's got to be this conspiracy,Since it wasn't the other.
And so I get five years forthat.
I get sent to Mollin Michigan.

(01:21:39):
I do about a year up there.
I go through a winter, they putyou in the cold weather, ice
storm, I'm telling you what it's67 degrees below zero wind
chill factor.
I've been there, I know, but notin the winter.
We had a lot of birds.
That was in a sally port.

(01:21:59):
They were all froze on theground.
Ice was that thick inside thedormitory windows you slept with
everything you could get inthere.
I heard they got heaters inthere later on.
But you could steal a carton ofmilk out of the mess hole and
set it up in the window.
But you could steal a carton ofmilk out of the mess hall and
set it up in the window andyou'd have almost ice cream.

(01:22:21):
You'd freeze it and you couldeat it.
You know frozen milk.
But I got.
I was wanting to go toTallahassee, you know closer.
I kept telling them hey, everytime I'd have you a review.
Every 90 days I want to go toTallahassee.
She said no, no, mr Ray, no,your points are too high.

(01:22:45):
And they told me that I hadconnections with the Dixie Mafia
and all that which that's newsto me.
I didn't know that.
And so here you can't go.
And so here you can't go.
Well, my wife, the church shewent to was having a reunion and
Don Fuquay, our senator, wasgoing to be at the reunion.

(01:23:09):
And my wife, she was going outthere to see Don Fuquay and ask
him if there was anything hecould do to get me moved to
Tallahassee.
And when she was out there,another fellow that was— what
year was?
This 84.

Speaker 1 (01:23:26):
Okay, and Norm Carlson was still ahead of the
BGP.

Speaker 2 (01:23:30):
Yeah, he was still ahead.
Norman Carlson was out there hewas a very tough guy.
And all right, he's a verytough guy.
And all right.
So she's out there and she runsinto a fellow that used to be a
.
He was a state senator, a staterepresentative, then a state
senator and before all that hewas working at the high school

(01:23:50):
as a driver's ed teacher.
A real nice guy.
And he sees my wife here.
Hey, kay, how.
He says where's billy?
And she said, uh, uh, he's inin, uh, in prison.
He said, oh, that's right, I'msorry.
I'm sorry.
He says is there anything I cando?
And this guy's name's wayne, hesays.

(01:24:13):
She says wayne, I'm, I'm hereto see Don Fuquay.
I'm trying to get him moveddown to Tallahassee.
And he says, okay, I'll takecare of that.
She says you can do that.
Yeah, he says.
And he named off.
I don't know who it was.
He says he's one of the headmen up there at the BOP.
He says I party with him allthe time.

(01:24:35):
He says I'll get on the phone.
And uh, he said call me mondaytomorrow.
And he called.
She called and said he'll bethere in two weeks.
So he was, he had a connection,and, uh, I got stuck in
talladega as a holdover for alittle while.
I didn't make the two weeks,but she called and he called

(01:24:58):
again.
They put me on the fast trackand this was funny because I
just had a teaming review and,miss Ray, I told them I wanted
to go, your points is too high.
And then they called me I'm atwork.
They said they need you back atthe dorm.
I said what is it?
I don't know.
I get back at the dorm.
I said what is it?

(01:25:18):
I don't know.
I get back dormant going there,miss ray, what is it?
Miss ray says we're doing aspecial teaming on you.
I said y'all.
I said what's going on?
Says you're, we're sending youto tallahassee.
I said I thought my points wastoo high.
She says we're putting you onthe sliding scale.
I said First I'd heard aboutthe sliding scale.
Come up.

Speaker 1 (01:25:36):
Yeah, I know, it slid me right on down to Tallahassee
, wow.

Speaker 2 (01:25:42):
So I finished my time down there in Tallahassee and I
got two detainers on me.
I got a detainer for violatingmy probation off of the first
RICO Great.
Yeah, probation off of the firstrico, right, yeah, and then I
got another rico charge, uh,while I was in there, that uh

(01:26:03):
actually, and you know I wassurprised they called me
racketeer.
And then I got another one, andpart of this one overlapped the
other one.
We thought, you know, hey,double, that didn't work.
But I was racketeering inDaytona and racketeering in Lake

(01:26:24):
City at the same time Twodifferent you know double
racketeering, Two differentstate attorney's offices.
Right, yeah, Judge Smith down inDaytona, and yeah.
So what happened on that one?
What saved my bacon on that one, is the fellow that signed all

(01:26:47):
the affidavits and everythingthat got us indicted.
They had him.
He had been in prison out inArkansas and from what I can
hear about Arkansas, it was realbad and he got shot.
In fact he got shot through theback of the van and wound up

(01:27:12):
doing time in Arkansas.
When we got out in Arkansasthey arrested him again over
this racketeering with us, andso he signed up and he wouldn't
give him no bond and he tradedus for a bond.
And then when he gets out, thenext time the prosecutor hears

(01:27:33):
from him, he's got a letterapologizing changed my mind, I
just couldn't do this and theletter is postmarked lima, peru.
So he uh went on the vacation,he went on vacations and that uh
messed our, messed it up forhim and I wound up.

(01:27:53):
Uh, I was like the last one theyhad already.
Uh, the enterprise.
They gave him house arrest andother guys they give them like
probation and it's that you know, like that.
And so whenever I get out uh offederal they take me to state.
I do my state time, finish upmy uh two years or whatever it

(01:28:16):
is.
I've done about eight or ninemonths on it in Putnam
Correctional and then here comesVolusia County, picks me up at
Putnam Correctional and thenthey take me down to the Volusia
County Jail by the racetrack,not too far from the racetrack.
So I'm in there and the nextday they give me a bond here, a

(01:28:46):
$50,000 bond.
So I bond out and the lawyersand all work it out to where
they give me.
Since I'm already on federalparole, they gave me more
probation and let the federalparole officer handle my
probation and so I was lookingat 60 years on that Conspiracy

(01:29:12):
to racketeering, 30 years apiece, and thank goodness I lucked
out on that thing and uh.
So that was uh.
It was very fortunate on thatand uh that that fella took off
and I, when I was a fugitivedown in belize, I ran into him

(01:29:33):
down there.
He was was.

Speaker 1 (01:29:36):
That's just amazing.
There's so much to cover andwith that you ran into him.
Let's talk about the fugitiveand let's talk a little bit
about I don't want to, I mean.
I want people to read the bookRight, right, but about when you
were a fugitive the second timein and what happened then.
About when you were a fugitivethe second time in and what

(01:29:56):
happened then.
And then, finally, I want toget into what you're doing now
and your literary stuff.
So where are we at now with thesecond thing?
The guy's in Peru.
Okay, he's a fugitive.
I don't know if you bought himdinner when you were in Peru.

(01:30:19):
Right, okay, he's a fugitive.
I don't know if you bought himdinner when you were in police.

Speaker 2 (01:30:21):
He was on his way through to Mexico.
Okay, I actually loaned himsome money.
Okay, he's back in Daytona now.
I don't know exactly whathappened, but he's doing real
extremely well.
He's back in Daytona, he's backin Daytona, he's back in
Daytona.
Wow, yeah, wow.
His dad was real well off.
In fact, one thing that helpedme my deal with the guys I was

(01:30:46):
smuggling with down there.
Their parents were all in theupper doctors real estate,
people, stuff like that.

Speaker 1 (01:30:57):
Why would they get in a business like this if they
got money?
I mean, that's why you got intoit.

Speaker 2 (01:31:02):
Yeah, the majority of people do yeah.
Why would?

Speaker 1 (01:31:04):
they get in.
It was a thrill for them, orwhat I guess so, but it became
for me too.

Speaker 2 (01:31:10):
I mean, that was later on, it was just Daddy told
me a long time ago.
He says, son, when you pick outa job, he says it don't matter
if it's digging a ditch, if youlike digging ditches, he said
that's what you're going to bedoing most of your life.
He said be the best ditchdigger he is.
He says like that.
He says you'll find somethingyou like.

Speaker 1 (01:31:32):
Daddy was right, because I'm coming up on 50
years of doing what I'm doing.

Speaker 2 (01:31:36):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:31:37):
So it's a good point in that I don't play pickleball
and I don't garden and all that.
So with that, but let's go toyour second time in.
How did that occur?
My second federal?
Yeah, my second federal.

Speaker 2 (01:31:55):
Yeah Well, I had they got on us right away, because
the fellow that I was dealingwith in Miami that I'd met in
prison I didn't know it, but hewas hooked up, he was a Canadian
, he was hooked up with.
In fact I ran into his boss inprison, who was like the John

(01:32:18):
Gotti of Canada back then, andhe was doing guns, buying guns
to send over to the what's that?
Over the IRA or something.

Speaker 1 (01:32:36):
Irish Republican Army .
Yeah, because you know they'reup around Boston, what's that?

Speaker 2 (01:32:39):
over the IRA or something Irish Republican Army?
Yeah, down there, because youknow they're up around Boston
and they got a lot ofconnections over there and he
was going to be sending some toColumbia and they were on him on
that gun thing.
So I go down to get theairplane and all and they get.
That's how they wind up taggingme in the deal and then, as you

(01:33:04):
know, we lost that load in theairplane and they hook
everything together and so theyarrest the boy down there for
the gun deal and then he tellson us on the pot deal and, um,
some more.
Uh, people go to telling and,uh, I know it's time to go, so I

(01:33:25):
take off, I'm a fugitive forabout three years and then I get
busted by, uh, the man I wastelling you about and they had,
they were on us a lot.
I had a fake ID and I hadconvinced myself I was that guy.

(01:33:45):
I was Jim Lane, everybody.
Hey, jim, I made a wholedifferent.
You know I'd moved around a lotbut I had been in the bars and
doing drugs.
The cocaine was my downfall andI imagine a lot, but I had, you
know, I'd been in the bars anddoing drugs.
That was my.
The cocaine was my downfall andI imagine a lot of people's yes
you just go crazy and I washaving, uh, I was doing a lot of

(01:34:09):
a lot of drugs and um drinkingand uh I guess, uh basically
being crazy, you know, andlosing money here and there.
So I get busted there atBinnington's and they offer me

(01:34:32):
10 years.
Tell on everybody.
You know how that goes.
Tell on everybody and we giveyou 10 years, you'll be out in
eight how'd you get busted?

Speaker 1 (01:34:41):
what happened?
What was the circle?

Speaker 2 (01:34:42):
well, I was at, uh, I was my partner.
He had been to drug rehab.
He was having all kind ofproblems on on drugs.
He was still on his parole, hewas still on parole.
I mean I was still on parole, Imean I'd quit my parole so I
wouldn't worry about it.
And he's getting, he's takingurine tests and filling them.

(01:35:05):
He's sitting in this rehab.
He escaped it and went toanother one and he's having all
kinds of problems and he's gotheat all over him.
And I think I got better atsmuggling than from whenever
they were following me around.
I didn't know it.
I said, well, you know, we gotthe heat on us.
They're watching Freddy.

(01:35:25):
The best place for Freddy to beis at the house.
Let them watch him and we'll besmuggling while they're
watching him.
So I told him I, I said, don'tworry.
I says, uh, I got.
We.
I keep the books on everythingand every time everything, after

(01:35:47):
it's all finished, everythingwas sold and everybody was paid
and everything was collected.
I'd go over the books withfreddie and then, when we were
done with it, he had had hisshare, I had mine and we'd throw
the book away.
Well, I had this book for thelast load where he was the decoy
, and I told him I was going tomeet him, I needed a meeting so

(01:36:12):
we could settle up and I couldthrow the book away.
And I met him at Bennigan's andhe uh, that's when I got busted
.
They, uh, I think this was theIRA guy.
No, no this.

Speaker 1 (01:36:28):
Okay, this is something.
Yeah, this was a pilot that wasa friend of mine from Freddie
Crowe.

Speaker 2 (01:36:33):
So it was I uh had felt like that.

Speaker 1 (01:36:39):
Uh, I kind of lost my place here no, no, no, no, I'm
following you, but you know,yeah it was for him to.

Speaker 2 (01:36:51):
I was gonna settle the books with him and
everything.
And when I got to benigan's hewasn't there.
He showed up, finally showed upand we're gonna go out.
I'd had a airplane alreadypicked out and was getting.
I was working on load.
Right then there's gonna get afella had.

(01:37:12):
Well, I'll back up a little bit.
I'm'm at Bennington's, I'mgoing hey, let's go smoke a
joint and I'll go over thesebooks and everything.
And I had got a call thatsomebody was wanting to borrow
$100 from me, so I was going toleave.

(01:37:33):
I asked them.
I said anybody got an envelope?
They didn't have an envelope.
I had one in the car.
I'm going to go get an envelope, put a hundred dollars in it
and leave it there and tell themhey, give that to whoever you
know.
Well, I gotta go.
And, uh, so I go out to get themoney.
I mean the envelope, put moneyin.
And that's when I wassurrounded.

(01:37:56):
But what I think happened was afellow that had been working
with us went to.
He was living in Tennessee uparound Newport.
He went back up there and gotin a fight with his girlfriend
and the law got involved andthey seen where he had had some

(01:38:17):
pot growing and then theychecked him out and found out
that he was a fugitive and theyarrested him and they sent him
to Scambia County Jail inPensacola.
And he didn't tell on me, butone of his co-defendants.
I think that he told thatco-defendant hey, when you get

(01:38:42):
out, I said you haven't got arecord, you own land.
They're going to give you abond.
They're not going to give me abond.
When you get out, go toBennigan's every day until Dekel
shows up.
He drives a blue Grand MarquisMercury.
It's got a Cocke County,Tennessee tag on it, he's got
gray hair and you just keepgoing and let him know what's

(01:39:06):
happening.
And let him know I want toborrow some money, naturally.
So I think whenever he went forhis bond I don't think they
gave him a bond and then he saidlook, I'll trade you.
I know how you can catch Deagle.
And I believe that's whathappened in my heart that he

(01:39:27):
traded me for a bond.
So, when I did show up.
Who is?

Speaker 1 (01:39:34):
he under arrest by DEA?
Yeah, okay, who is he underarrest by?

Speaker 2 (01:39:36):
DEA.
Yeah, okay, and whenever I wentto meet Freddie at Bennigan's,
bennigan's had a nice Marriottor something right beside it.
It had, you know, suites andeverything, and I could park
there and walk right toBennton's and do all the

(01:39:58):
drinking I wanted to and thenwalk right back to Bedroom Suite
, you know, and that's why Iused that area a lot when I was
there, and so I went out to getthe envelope and I'm walking
back and that's when I getarrested.
They surround me.
I know where to run.
I was checked out, I hadsuicide.

Speaker 1 (01:40:20):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:40:21):
What were you charged with?
I was charged with importationof over 1,000 kilograms of
marijuana, conspiracy import andpossession of the same 1,000
kilograms of marijuana.
Over 1,000 kilograms, they said, and then they broke it down

(01:40:42):
into smaller increments.
They call them substantive andnon-substantive.
I wound up getting eight30-year sentences under the old
law and two life sentences underthe new law, which is life
without relief.

Speaker 1 (01:41:01):
When this was going on, you said earlier that you
were really abusing drugsyourself.

Speaker 2 (01:41:06):
Right, yeah, I mean you were using high-quality
cocaine.

Speaker 1 (01:41:11):
Remember cocaine got stronger as it went on and that.

Speaker 2 (01:41:16):
I had the best, you know.
Yeah, yeah.
So I guess I had connections,you know.

Speaker 1 (01:41:22):
Yeah, and that kind of drove you into the business
to do this, or what?
In other words, were you payingfor your addiction too, in
addition to making money?

Speaker 2 (01:41:36):
Yeah, that part wasn't there.
If I wanted cocaine, I couldbuy a kilo instead of going and
getting ounces or quarters orwhatever, and I'd have all I
wanted, and a lot of people youknow.
I'd do it until I'd get sick ofit and tired of it and I'd quit
for a little while and go dosomething else and then do some

(01:41:58):
more.
Being on the run is kind of alonely thing, you know.
As far as trying to, what can Ido?
And I kicked my own butt fornot having more imagination to
do something constructiveinstead of what I was doing.

(01:42:19):
I should have done.
I had a fake ID, I should havewent and got a pilot license and
my fake ID.
I should have flew done thingsthat I like.

Speaker 1 (01:42:31):
So you were indicted.
You went to tell me whathappened with that and the
fugitive part too.

Speaker 2 (01:42:38):
Well, like I say, they told me they was going to
give me 10 years.
I'd be out in eight if I toldon everybody.
But I've told people I'm sureyou relate to this Everybody,
normal people.
I guess they like to be liked,you know like hey this guy.

(01:43:00):
Hey, there's billy.
He's a good guy.
I like him, or this.
You know what have you and theway I look at it.
If nobody likes me as long as Ilike me, I'm okay with that,
but I'd like for other peoplelike me too.

(01:43:21):
But I've got to look.
When I look in the mirror, Igot to see somebody that I say I
like that guy he's he, he don't.
he treats people right.
He don't tell on people hedon't do this or what have you,
and I just couldn't do it.

(01:43:42):
And I've done a lot of thingsthat I don't like, that I
wouldn't like myself about inthe past.
But that's over and done.
I can't do nothing about thatnow.
But I'm not sending you know,people to prison over a plant
and things or people that werefriends of mine.
In fact I've hooked up withpeople now that were friends of

(01:44:04):
mine.
Then they got at road with me40-something times I've seen you
know we had to be real closeand done a lot of things
together and all, and since he'sgot out he was one of the main
testifiers on me and all that Imean.
I'm not a person that can livewith hate in his heart.
That's not healthy.

(01:44:26):
I'm a forgiver on somethinglike that.
Now, somebody that just goesout and tries to bust you, just
to bust you is one thing, butsomebody that's under a lot of
duress Saving their ass is whatyou're saying?

Speaker 1 (01:44:41):
Yeah, right.

Speaker 2 (01:44:42):
And I had one guy tell me one time I loaned him
money, he was good.
I'm good with him now.
He was good all the way untilhe knocked his wife off.
He saved his wife, he went anddone time, he done his time and
all that, but he just, you know,he was in a position and you

(01:45:03):
don't know what these people aregoing to do until you there's
no way to test them.

Speaker 1 (01:45:10):
And that's the test, and that's too late then yeah,
when you got what happened thesecond time with your federal
case, you got sentenced.

Speaker 2 (01:45:22):
Yeah, I think it was a three-day trial or two and a
half days.
They slam-dunked me and thebiggest thing I was in jail
there 10 months because they wastrying to figure out was
arguing about whether I was oldlaw or new law.
I didn't have any actual actsthat I was named on on the
conspiracy.
That was within the new law.

(01:45:44):
There was four acts.
What year was this?
This was 1990.

Speaker 1 (01:45:53):
So this was under the George HW uh laws that came
into effect with minimummandatories.

Speaker 2 (01:46:02):
Right, that's it yeah , yeah yeah comprehensive crime
bill and all that stuff yeah andum.
So everything went up.
You know, I I was getting uhlife sentence or something.
I'd max out at 50, you know,like a couple years earlier it
it would have only been 15 years, which is a good chunk, you
know, and you would have to do athird of it, I believe, before

(01:46:26):
you was eligible for parole andyou'd do two-thirds of it and
they'd kick you out.
But yeah, I was, I got slammedon that and so they sent me,
gave me the two last sentences.

Speaker 1 (01:46:45):
And what was the fugitive part in here?
I missed that when you were inBelize.
Yeah, when was that Before this?

Speaker 2 (01:46:53):
Yeah, that was shortly after I got out.
I mean, I had— oh, the otherwar and stuff.
Yeah, like was shortly after Igot out.

Speaker 1 (01:46:58):
I mean I had oh the other warrants.

Speaker 2 (01:47:00):
Yeah, like from 87, 88, 9, 90.

Speaker 1 (01:47:03):
And you were in Belize the whole time.

Speaker 2 (01:47:05):
Back and forth.
I stayed down there for sixmonths.
How'd you get back in Ringing alot, huh, ringing a load of pot
, but you were wanted right,yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:47:17):
How did you?
In the air I realized you couldfly under the radar and come in
and we, you know it's detailed,but, yeah, the viewers are
going to say, well, how did thisguy get back in the united
states if he's a fugitive?
And we know that you havedifferent ids and and the ways
that fugitives operate.
I'm very familiar with that.

Speaker 2 (01:47:40):
I came through one time when I was real, real sick.
I didn't know it.
I thought it was Montezuma'sRevenge, but I found out.
Actually later, in prison, theytold me this.
They said you've got antibodiesfor hepatitis A.
I said I ain't never hadhepatitis a.

(01:48:01):
I said yeah, you have.
I said no, I never turnedyellow or anything.
And they said have you everbeen out of the country?
And I said yeah, they shouldever get real sick when he's out
of the country.
I said yeah, I know when, Iknow right when I got it and um,
so I was so sick how'd you getsick seafood or something, or?
uh, I think it may.
I think it was either therestaurant in cancun or uh water

(01:48:30):
on that island that I had.
That uh got out of a.
Well, that uh, I think was badwater one or the other.
Anyway, I mean, that was sickand I said to myself I thought I
was going to die.
I said I'm going to die, I'mnot going to die here, I'm going
to die on an airplane headinghome or at the house and I

(01:48:51):
finally get back.

Speaker 1 (01:48:53):
So what you had was a state charge and I'm always a
technical guy what they call aUFAP unlawful flight to avoid
prosecution.
Is that what they had on?
Yeah, okay, all right.
Now what it is is BDEA or thelocals went to the FBI and they

(01:49:16):
got a warrant on you for UFAP,okay, so you came back, you got
the big sentence.
You went into the system asecond time and we talked
earlier there was allegationsmade for escape plans and all
that.
You got moved through thesystem and then, tell me, you

(01:49:41):
went to different institutions.
You ended up in coleman, okay,and, um, I understand the
minimum mandatories very well,because there was a woman by the
name of evelyn bazone, papa,papa, who, who you know, I'm
sure you've know about and uh,uh, advocated for her release

(01:50:02):
and she was under.
She got two life sentences.
She was, uh, in Tallahassee for30 years and uh, and that we we
, uh, I guess the right wordreacquainted ourselves through
her daughter and you wereclassically under that.

(01:50:23):
So let's go to Coleman and Iwant to give you time for you to
talk about the book with that.
But what?

Speaker 2 (01:50:35):
happened and how did you get released?

Speaker 1 (01:50:41):
Well.

Speaker 2 (01:50:41):
I was actually released from USP Pollock in
Louisiana.
That's where I was at and I hadfiled.
I can't even remember the firstone.
I filed two times for clemencyand I was in big USP, big Sandy,
when I got turned down.
I got my letter.
That's in South Carolina, right.
Kentucky, Kentucky okay, I'mthere, I get a letter.

(01:51:03):
And there's another Floridadude there.
He gets a letter, too, from theauthorities.
He had filed for clemency.
And I look at my letter.
My letter says after carefulconsideration, blah, blah, blah.
You know, you keep on going andkeep.
Clemency is not warranted.

(01:51:26):
And my buddy there from florida,from madison, florida, he had
one.
He looked at his and wecompared them and the only
difference between his and minewas mine had my name on it and
his had his name on it and theyhad done the same careful
consideration.
And blah, blah, blah and allthat.
So it's basically turned downwith a form letter and, uh,

(01:51:47):
president obama, he startedwhat's called the clemency
initiative of 2014.
Uh, he changed the pardonattorney and he told me, says
he's wanting them to see if hecan get some people out you know
that are deserving, been inthese long times and all that.

(01:52:08):
And if you qualified under acertain deal, they would even
give you a lawyer.
And I had already filed againbecause you have to wait a year
to file for clemency again.
So I had already filed again forclemency and there's a lot of
activists, you know where peoplewalking around with signs with

(01:52:31):
my picture on it in front ofWhite House but not just me with
Randy Lanier and John Nock anda whole bunch of us pot
prisoners.
You know these guys, they'd allbeen in over 10, 15, 20 years.
You know, sent them home lifesentences.
One of the activists told me hesays you need to file for a

(01:53:04):
lawyer.
I said, well, I've already sentit in.
They said, don't matter, filefor us if they'll give you a
lawyer.
So I've done it all.
They had computers in there now,you know, inmate, I filled out
all the stuff for that and Iwound up with a lawyer out of
New York City Caitlin Nadoff, Ithink it was her name, a nice

(01:53:25):
young lady and all, and she'ddone some amendments to my
supplements to my clemencyrequest and one of the things
that they had enhanced mysentence on clemency request and
the one of the things that theyhad enhanced my sentence on
that I objected against anddidn't get anywhere with my

(01:53:46):
objection if somebody hadsomething very similar to it and
it went to the Supreme Courtand they won, and so part of
what she did was, you know, partof the clemency issue is if you
were found guilty today, wouldyou get as harsh a sentence, as
you got back then, and so thatwas the deal.
Hey, I'm found guilty today.

(01:54:08):
They couldn't use this priorconviction against me, and so I
would be a maximum or minimum of20 years.

Speaker 1 (01:54:16):
You know, I wouldn't get the whole life.

Speaker 2 (01:54:19):
And uh, they, uh, I'm , I'm at pollock and they uh
call me in and say, uh, hey, we,uh, we want you to sign this
release papers.
We're going to send your thepardon attorney's wanting your
records.

Speaker 1 (01:54:34):
I said, great, I signed it where's this R&D at
the institution no?

Speaker 2 (01:54:38):
this was in my case manager.
Oh, okay, and so I get on thephone and call my wife.
I tell her.
I said look, I don't know ifsomething's going on.
There's some movement.
I said they must be looking atmy case.
I said that's a good deal.
That's never happened the othertime.
And so I kept rocking on.
Days later, a week, two later,I get a call.

(01:55:04):
They said you need to be in R&Dreceiving and discharge at such
and such a time.
You're getting a call from yourlawyer.
And I said okay, so I'm at R&Dat that time and I'm sitting
there with the officer and alland the phone rings.
And yeah, here he is, he handsit to me and it was Caitlin.

(01:55:28):
She says your clemency is beingapproved, approved.
President Obama approved ityesterday.
You'll be released on April the16th.
That was 120 days from that day.

Speaker 1 (01:55:44):
So I woke up that morning, so you were approved in
January, right?

Speaker 2 (01:55:54):
No, it was 120 days before April the 16th, whatever
that is.
April 16th was your releasedate.
April 16th was my release date.
That's on the weekend, so I gotout on April the 15th because
they don't hold you over.

Speaker 1 (01:56:10):
You're released on Jack's day.
Yeah, ironic.

Speaker 2 (01:56:13):
Okay, and so they told me that and they said
you're going to go to thehalfway house and what have you
and everything.
And so I got back on the phone.
He gave me the phone, I calledmy wife and told her.
I said she had just had a kneesurgery, a knee replacement.
How many years has he beenmarried?
Well, if you don't count ourdivorce 52.

Speaker 1 (01:56:38):
No, that don't count 52, wow, yeah, I told her.

Speaker 2 (01:56:41):
I've been married to her for 52 years.
She divorced me.

Speaker 1 (01:56:44):
What do they call a hall pass?
Right, yeah, that's what thekids call it, okay.

Speaker 2 (01:56:50):
Yeah.
So she was, you know,everybody's happy.
And I, yeah, she came.
I wanted to ride the bus, youknow, to the halfway house in
Jacksonville.
She wouldn't have it.
She drove all the way out therewith just a fresh knee
replacement and hobbling aroundand everything, and picked me up

(01:57:12):
, took me to Jacksonville anddropped me off here at the
halfway house.
They told me they said now youcall us when you get there.
We're leaving now.
We want to know that you'vemade it.
Well, I forgot to call themwhen I got there because we're
on the way there and we getbehind, there's real bad weather

(01:57:34):
, a wreck and all this, and look, we're not going to make it on
time.
So I called the halfway houseto let them know hey, we're
running late.
And we took pictures of, hey,where's the cars?
Just lined up, stopped on I-10.
So we ain't going to make it.
And they didn't even know I wascalling them.
They said what, who?
I said yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:57:58):
They said well, well we got to get you a bed.
I said, well, I'll be theretonight and all that, but I
could have spent the night atthe house.
So this is flied by.
This is amazing.
What are your goals now?
I mean, what do you want to dothe rest of your life With the
family?
I am assuming that you havegrandchildren.

Speaker 2 (01:58:21):
I've got a grandson who's 25 years old.
He's a machinist, he works onwhat's called a MESAC thing and
he's extremely smart.
He knows things I don't knowtrigonometry and stuff like that
.
Then I've got a 15-year-oldgranddaughter and I've told
people I never imagined seeinganything coming in my life like

(01:58:47):
her.
She has hijacked my heart andgone with it.
That's my life, she.
She plays soccer, she playssoftball.
In fact she's at the Universityof Florida right now at a camp
softball camp down there andthat's, that's that's our life.

(01:59:08):
We live right across the streetfrom my daughter and
granddaughter.
We in fact she moved and boughtthis house we sold in.
The house across the streetfrom her came up for sale and we
sold our house and moved towhere we, because we were on one
side of town.
They were on another side oftown.
I can just look right out, walkright across the street.

(01:59:29):
There they are and they comeover and eat with us all the
time and that's my life now'sand I'm happy with it.
It's uh.

Speaker 1 (01:59:42):
I mean nothing that more money wouldn't help, but uh
, yeah, yeah, well, we talkedearlier and you're in the
process of writing some morebooks and I commend you on that
because the more you read, themore you know in life.
That's the way I look at it.
I read, the glasses keepgetting thicker on me, you know,
and that, unfortunately, butthat's how you learn.

(02:00:05):
But it's been a great pleasure,billy, to interview you and I
thank you for coming to thestudio and doing this in person.
I like to talk like this Got totoo.
I think it's good for everybodyto hear all the sides and that

(02:00:25):
I'm sure.
And just to say that you hadthe support of law enforcement
on your release too.
You've given me the people totalk to that know you over the
years and I will talk to themand, uh, you know.
Thank you for coming you knowwell, I'm glad to be here, and
you know I wish her everythingthe best, and I understand why

(02:00:50):
she would have been great tohave her here, but you know
we'll do that in the futurethank you again.

Speaker 2 (02:00:56):
You're welcome, thank you.

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Ep 18: Billy Dekle - Navigating Danger and Redemption

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.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}Ep 18: Billy Dekle - Navigating Danger and Redemption