Ep 4: John Murray - From Surveillance Innovation to the NHL - Justice Then, Justice Now

Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Good morning.
This is Tobias Roach with JeffThomas.
This is Justice Then, justiceNow, podcast.
Today we have the pleasure ofhaving John Murray here on the
podcast.
Full disclosure.
I've known John since 1989.

(00:23):
I've known John since 1989.
We worked together at Customsand we had the wonderful
pleasure of working together 30years later for the National
Hockey League.
He's a senior representativeand I was the junior
representative in the NHL at thegames in Sunrise and we were

(00:49):
able to go to the Stanley Cup,which was a real thrill for me
and thanks to John, I'll alwaysbe grateful for that to do that.
He's going to talk about thatjob that he had for 30 years,
but the main focus today isgoing to be on his career.
John is retired from the NewYork City Police Department,

(01:16):
he's retired from the US Customand now he's spoiling his dog at
home on a daily basis, and thatthe subjects we're going to
talk about are a lot of things.
He's going to be back for othersessions one on gambling, which

(01:38):
he's very knowledgeable on, andwe have another individual who
actually went to jail and wasindicted on gambling, so it
should be very interesting tothe viewers.
The persons that John hasencountered are some unique
individuals.
You'll hear about the casesgroundbreaking cases and

(02:04):
investigations that occurred inhis tenure with the New York
City Police Department and withthe US Customs Service.
John, it's great to see you.

Speaker 2 (02:17):
Good to be here and good to see you guys.
Nice to meet you, jeff, you tooLikewise.
Nice to meet you, jeff, you tooLikewise.

Speaker 1 (02:23):
I wanted to.
I wonder if you could tell usyour background for the benefit
of viewers where you grew up,what got you into police work?

Speaker 2 (02:38):
That's usually the most popular question.
Well, I grew up in the SouthBronx, right by the Triborough
Bridge, and I always wanted tobe in the police department.
There was no other goals I hadwhen I graduated high school.
We just waited until my age was21, and then I entered the
police department and that'swhere I wanted to go from day
one and, believe me, I loved itand I wish I could do it over.

(03:01):
I went to patrol when I wasappointed.
I went to patrol in the 10thprecinct, which is like Chelsea
section of Manhattan, and thenfrom there I got.
I was fortunate to get anassignment to the police
commissioner's confidentialinvestigating unit and from
there on it was.
It's been great.
It was became a detective andinvolved in other agencies and

(03:22):
it was a great career.
It was 22 years and I left.
Only reason I left is becausethe, the president of john jay
college in new york of criminaljustice asked me to take over
the training program at john jaycollege and that's the reason I
left.
Otherwise I would have beenthere until still there if I
could have.

Speaker 1 (03:42):
They'd have to carry you out right.

Speaker 2 (03:45):
Yeah, the job yeah.

Speaker 1 (03:47):
Okay, that's, that's a compliment in the law
enforcement circles.
Can you tell us about what itwas like when you started and
and how they all the trainingyou received the first week and
what?
How did they?
How did they bring anentrylevel person right out of
the academy on the job?

Speaker 2 (04:07):
Well, I was doing a late tour and when I came off
the late tour the desk officerwho at that time was Barney
McBrand he's the lieutenant hewanted to know if I had any
clerical experience and I said,oh yes, I worked in Union
Carbide for a while.
Worked in Union Carbide for awhile.
So he asked me could I stayover and form a method of search

(04:29):
for a lot of the cops that aregoing to be temporarily assigned
there because we have a missingkid in the neighborhood.
So I sat down at the desk and Iwrote and I had blocks written
up and then I got the names ofthe cops and who was in sign to
what block and they searched andduring that search one cop
discovered the mutilated bodyand rape of a young girl named

(04:53):
Edith Kikorius.
It was terrible.
He came into the precinct myroom where I was the clerical,
was right behind the deskofficer and he was very upset
and we spoke, we wrote a, wetalked to him a bit and me.
At the meantime, what washappening at this time at police
headquarters was a greatcelebration because it was going

(05:13):
to be a new chief inspector, anew chief of detectives and all
that was taking place and in themeantime at the 10th precinct
all the the press was gatheringbecause the body was discovered.
So I figured this is going tobe a madhouse today and I had a
little thing typed up and readyto go in case somebody needed it
.
So up comes the new chief ofdetectives and he comes in and

(05:38):
he's a little bit sweaty andnervous, of course.
He comes in and we're talkingto him.
He meets with the cop thatdiscovered the body.
He was still very upset and wegave him a little thing what to
say.
He went out in front of thedesk and he spoke to all the
press.
Apparently it was a goodpresentation and he was very

(05:58):
pleased with it, because aboutfour hours later, when he was
leaving and he went out, wasgoing out the door.
He stopped and he turned aroundand he said to the Lieutenant
hey Lou, you and that guy overthere meaning me be at my office
tomorrow at nine o'clock.
And that was the beginning.
Was that luck or not?
I mean, it's a shame the way ithappened Otherwise I probably

(06:20):
would have went right throughpatrol for 20 years and that
there I was assigned to thePolice Commissioner's
Confidential Investigating Unit,which was basically a unit that
did gambling investigations,and that was the beginning of my
career, so how?

Speaker 1 (06:36):
long were you on the job, john, when this happened?
Oh, I was.

Speaker 2 (06:40):
I think about a year, a year and a half.
Okay, maybe two years.
I'm not sure I was.
Yeah, maybe two years.
And with that job and Iremember I was there, I was a
clerical person and they, Ididn't mind, I didn't like that,
but I took it because it was anice job and it was down in
headquarters and then one timetwo detectives were going out on

(07:00):
a gambling arrest and theyneeded help and they needed a
driver really.
So they asked me.
So we went to Rockaway, farRockaway, and it was in the
wintertime, and I remember wewent in.
They had a warrant to arrest aplace where they were doing bets
over the phone and we went inthe door, broke down the door
and everything.
They arrested the guy and they,I guess, because that was a

(07:27):
nuisance to them, they told me,stay here and watch in case and
answer the phones and take thebets.
This way we'll do the businessmore harm.
And I said, okay, I knew it wasa way of getting rid of me.
So I stayed there and I'm andI'm doing, answering the phone,
doing the bets, had just a fewcoming in and I noticed outside
a car pulls up and the guy getsout and he's looking all around.
So I said said whoa?
I hid in the closet, I saidsomething's happening and he
came upstairs, that guy, he wentto the phones and he started

(07:49):
taking all the bets.
So I watched him for about 20minutes and I did, I opened the
closet and I scared the shit outof him and I called up the two
detectives and I said what am Igoing to do with this guy?
He's here taking bets and theycouldn't believe it.
And that was the beginning.
I didn't have to go to the deskanymore and I was with the

(08:13):
field units and it was great.
And that was the beginning,right there.
That was just luck.
They would try to dump me.
But another stroke of luck,another guy came into work and
we made another arrest in theevening what?

Speaker 3 (08:24):
what kind of was that ?
A typical thing?
Was that like a sports bet typeoperation?
Yes, it was mostly.

Speaker 2 (08:29):
Was mostly sports betting, uh-huh, and mostly
phones like they had what theyaccommodate horses only as a uh
an act, like a luxury, like justan accommodation.
Gotcha, we were mostly sportsbetting.

Speaker 3 (08:40):
How busy was it, uh.
What was that kind of oh very?

Speaker 2 (08:43):
busy, very busy.
Sports betting is.
Betting is a big thing.
Horse racing is active incertain areas.
At that time we didn't have OTBat that time.
Otb came in a little bit later,which I was a part of trying to
stop it, but during OTB, whenit came in, I went on.
After a few weeks the big thingin New York at that time was

(09:11):
OTB was going to knock outorganized crime in gambling.
After about a month we had madequite a few arrests and
examination of the evidenceshowed it increased.
So what I did is I typed up apaper for the chief and it was,
and I put any labels on it andthe chief had it.
And I don't know what happenedto this paper.
The next day it was on.
It was in the front page of theTimes.
My whole story.

(09:32):
I said, oh geez, I'm finished.
Now for sure it's a white paper.
No, no, no signal Written byJerry Eskenazi of the New York
Times.
But that white paper showedthat it would only increase
their bookmakers use the parlorsand eventually it went out of
business.
They overexpanded.
There's no more OTB in New York.

(09:53):
It's out of business as of lastyear.

Speaker 1 (09:55):
So I guess I was right there.
Could you explain what OTB isfor our viewers?
Off-track betting I'm sorry.
Off-track betting Horses only.

Speaker 2 (10:02):
Okay, horses only.
Okay, horses only.

Speaker 3 (10:09):
So you have to go to the track normally to bet, but
this way you could just bet onany track in the world or
whatever or in the region.

Speaker 2 (10:15):
In the region.
Yeah, at one time we were intothat.
We had a post out at Aqueductwhere we had a little house that
had all machines in it thatgave the telephone numbers of
anybody around the area thatwould dial to try to place bets.
And during that time I saw theindividuals that tried to pass
post.

(10:35):
There was no phones allowed atthe track and one guy would
stand up and put a big number upor have a code and put his hand
up.
That's one is the first horsewinner, so they could pass post.
The bookmakers in New York.
It was quite interesting justto watch them run, run the
parking lot to get to where theguy that was near the phone and

(10:57):
he was BSing and we werelistening.
At the time we had a courtorder to listen to this and that
was my learning of it.
It was, it was really, uh, anawakening.
It was good, it was enjoyabledoing the gambling.
And then they had also whichamazed me up on the cross bay
boulevard.
They, they had a couple of guysthere that always sat with

(11:20):
attache cases full of money thatwould, if there was a race that
was going lopsided whereeverybody was betting on it,
they would bring in the bed onother horses to bring it up.
So if the payout was that goodwould nobody would get hurt and
the mob wouldn't get hurt thatwas taking the bets to pay out
of the, to bring down the payoutof the horse.

(11:41):
Everybody's betting on this 40to one shot.
And all of a sudden the 40 toone shot is if that payouts will
be enormous.
So they they get into the track, put money into the power
mutual machine and the 40 to oneshot would slim right down to
10 to one.
But enough of betting on it.
And that would, and bankerswould be aware of it too.

Speaker 3 (12:02):
So so we're like the jockeys involved, or was it just
all manipulation of the oddsthat was the hustle.

Speaker 2 (12:08):
Yeah, we're not.
We're not jockeys, it was justthat it was.
Uh, that's what they justmonitored.
They have people monitor thattoday.
If that's a, they have a, agroup, a private group, that
does the monitoring of allsporting events, and watching
the betting is what tells you ifsomething's going wrong.
But if it's organized, it's,it's hard to discover.

Speaker 3 (12:30):
Yeah, yeah so when you were monitoring the calls
like was that a?
Was that an early form of wiretapping or was that a different
system?

Speaker 2 (12:38):
no, no, it's the same , the same system, except they
just got fancier equipment andeasier ways to do it.
But the monitoring is the same.
The I mean the equipment iselectronically now.
At that time there was no uhmod.
There was the dialing was allmanual, there was no uh.

Speaker 3 (12:58):
So, like when you, discovered when you discover it.
Was it like when you discoveredone of these phones that one of
these uh guys was using?
You would then record all thecalls coming into that, or were,
was there another?

Speaker 2 (13:09):
no, we're just waiting for the outgoing call of
the bet.

Speaker 3 (13:12):
So so you already knew those incoming incoming on
minimization incoming calls.

Speaker 2 (13:17):
If they had, it was.
These were coin boxes that werearound the track.
Uh, okay, gotcha, gotcha,gotcha.
So we didn't want it.
We only wanted the ones thatwere illegal the track.
Okay, gotcha, gotcha, gotcha,we only wanted the ones that
were illegal.
We couldn't listen to the onesthat weren't illegal.
Gotcha, if a guy came in andhe's called, it looked like a
professional store answer or wejust hang up our phone.

(13:39):
He calls in and he says Jackfor 32.
Oh, that's the number we want.
He's jack and 32 is the runnerand then he gives his bets.

Speaker 3 (13:48):
It, that's the call we want interesting we're not
interested in any other calls uh, that's, that's cool, that's
cool yeah, it was the.

Speaker 2 (13:57):
That was.
Yeah, it was.
That's the way the codes workedon it.
On the betting, how had it was?
The first one was identifyingthe person bedding and the
second one was his contact therunner how, uh, how soon after,
like how long we're gonna?
Do one on gaming.
I have all those things for you.
I have all those facts for youthere.

Speaker 3 (14:16):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, I gotta check those out.
The um.
So like, how quick after.
I mean, how long would did itlast before um, you know, the
guys on the other side were likewait a second, they're, they're
on our calls.
You know when did like we'renot you.
Just, it was just, that's theway it.
No, they never would do that?

Speaker 2 (14:33):
no, we would never, because we got it from the track
.
And these, how many people goto the track?
Maybe three people called them,but they, you know, they've
never found, they never foundout out that particular way.
They know it's somebody, butthey felt somebody gave them up.

Speaker 3 (14:49):
Yeah, yeah, so then they're all paranoid of their
guys.
Yeah, that's right.
It's kind of a double whammy.
That's it.
Yeah, it is.

Speaker 2 (14:58):
They never suspected that we had these taps in.
Some of them did.
If it was the fancy bookmakers,they felt they must have a wire
somewhere.
In other words, and we used toget a lot of good calls.
We'd just say the Jewishbookmakers were the funniest
because they would have a ifsomebody was watching them.
They would say Frankie Bennyand Izzy's around, and I would
say what the hell is that Frank?

(15:19):
That means the FBI.
They called him Frank Benny andIzzy the fbi.
And now that was it.
That was quite funny.
I figured out well who'sfrankie benny and is he, and we
don't know that group and that'swho it was I love that.

Speaker 3 (15:36):
I love that.
So, like um the other gamblingstuff was there, like card rooms
and that kind of stuff, or wasit just all?

Speaker 2 (15:43):
oh yeah, card rooms and we used to have.
We, our office, was responsiblefor organized crime dice games.
Dice games was was organized byorganized crime.
It was definitely.
We would go around and try tofollow.
There would be a lugger that'sthe guy that drove them there.
Or if the persons were part ofthe game organized crime, they
would go, they would go right tothe game.

(16:05):
But if the game was somewherein the city and it was a
professional table that had tonsof eats there for the people
and they would have like between40 to 60 people gambling and
this would happen during themiddle of the night and this was
a a big, a big thing, with thepolice department to try to stop
this and we would watch themand the lugger would pick them

(16:29):
up at like 49th and Broadway.
That's where if you wanted toplay dice that night.
You would get down to 49th andBroadway and you'd wait there
and the lugger would come alongand take six or seven people in
his car and his deal was not tobe followed and he was tough,
very tough to follow the lugger.
He would go to Jersey, NewJersey, and come back in the
tunnel, Then maybe go out toJersey again and come back in

(16:52):
again before going to thelocation.
But we were lucky once in awhile.
Our breakthrough came one timewhen we raided a dice game up
and arrested a dice game upthere.
We had the table, we had allthe chips and everything.
We were booking the people, wewere writing the arrest cards up
and we noticed the food wasalways delicious Italian cold

(17:16):
cuts of every brand, the bestbagels in town.
And we found a receipt inMcDonald's Avenue for the
bakeries.
Hey, this guy gets his bagelsat McDonald's, you know, on
McDonald's Avenue in Brooklyn.
And we said, gee, we kept thatreceipt.
And a week later we decided towatch the bagel store in
Brooklyn.

(17:37):
And we watched the bagel storeand along comes a guy, gets like
four dozen bagels, puts them ina car, let's follow him.
And there he was.
He was the.
He was the food guy for the icegames.
He was easy to follow becausehe didn't know anybody was
behind them and he led us to alot of great places and they
could never figure out how wegot them so fast.
We were following the bagel guyand it was an interesting.

(18:00):
It was really amazing.
He didn't have to go throughthis.
I mean we used to follow themto Jersey and back and in and
out of traffic and Broadway.
It was a mess.
Fortunately nobody got in anaccident.
This was a pleasure followingthe bagel man and he would oh,
he would get the cold cuts too.
He would have the cold cuts.
He'd get them from 18th Avenuein Brooklyn and he would go

(18:22):
right to the game and we wouldsit there and watch it about.
He would get there like 8.30, 8, 9 o'clock, set the whole thing
up.
In comes the players around 11,12, 1 and it's packed.
By 1.30 in the morning it'spacked and that's the time we
would always hit it when it waspacked.

Speaker 3 (18:40):
And so would everyone get arrested, or were you just
kind of looking for the toppeople?

Speaker 2 (18:45):
Yes, they were kind of arrested During one of those
games.
We got John Gotti in one ofthose games when he was a young
loan shark.
He was at the game.
It was organized crime.
It was definitely organizedcrime running it.
There was, I have to say, 40people at the game.
I would say 20 are part of thegame.
The other 20 are justcontributing to the game.
I would say 20 are part of thegame.
The other 20 are justcontributing to the money, just

(19:07):
putting the money in.
It was well done.
It was honestly done.
By the way, plus, the big thingat the game was the loan sharks
.
They were there and they wouldlend you money if you needed
more money, at a high rate ofinterest, of course.

Speaker 3 (19:23):
They're like the ATMs .

Speaker 1 (19:23):
Yeah, with a serious service charge, that rate of
interest.
Of course they're like the.

Speaker 3 (19:25):
ATMs yeah, with a serious service charge.
That's the only gambling Iencountered in.

Speaker 2 (19:29):
The only other gambling I ever came across was
an FBI tech.
He was an FBI guy that got.
He was the Boston FBI tech andhe got transferred Boston FBI
tech and he got transferred tothe city and he well, I don't

(19:51):
know how far can you tell.
Oh well, it's the truth, youknow.
I want to know.
Talk about it because it was aninteresting case.
He went to one of the clubs, notclubs, one of the nice bars in
Manhattan where one of the barswhere the clubs in the not clubs
one of the nice bars inManhattan where one of the bars
where a CI worked in there andthis guy was this particular

(20:13):
agent was so wanted toingratiate him so much he just
kept bragging.
He was an FBI guy and nobodybelieved him and all the cop
that was there got theinformation.
He would send it down toheadquarters.
Head headquarters would look atit and not pay attention.
Then one day the undercover copup there says, hey, let me see
your id.

(20:34):
So they gave him his.
He gave the id to the cop, hemade a xerox of it in the back,
then he gave it back to him.
Then he sent down the id toheadquarters.
The next thing we know thechief is gone to washington.
Then he sent down the ID toheadquarters.
The next thing we know thechief is gone to Washington with
the head of the FBI from NewYork.
And we also in the meantime wesaid, oh, they're going to ruin
our case because this guy'sgoing to be a bonus to us.

(20:54):
So we ran across the street andgot a court order for a pen
register in court and we put thepen register on his home phone,
which is in Manhattan.
And we had to put the penregister on his home phone,
which is in Manhattan.
And we had to put the penregister on his home phone in a
manner that he couldn't discoverbecause he parked his car right
near where the terminal box wasdownstairs.

(21:15):
So we had to take the wholething apart and put it in the
back and like weld it in in away.
So once they came back fromWashington the FBI thing was
we're going to transfer him tothe task force in Florida.
But we had a pen register orderso they couldn't do it right
away.
But eventually they got him outof the way to transfer him and

(21:38):
they did transfer him.
A year later he comes back andhe was arrested and thrown out
of the FBI.
But they didn't want us gettingtoo close to the FBI.
We had put a pen register onhis desk phone at 69th Street
and oh, it was World TradeCenter.
No, was he at the desk?
Yeah, the desk set up at 69thStreet and also his home, which

(22:01):
was on 3rd Avenue, manhattan.
That was an interesting case.
Just trying to beat and he got.
Eventually he was arrested.
So I don't know what hissentence was, but I thought it
was a great case and it was tothe efforts of the narcotics
court that helped us get the penregister orders.

Speaker 3 (22:21):
What's a?

Speaker 2 (22:21):
pen register.
Pen register is at that timebefore touchtone, dialing pen
registers give you the digits ofthe number dialed.
It would be like a teletype orthe printer from the Wall Street
ticker tape All digits.

(22:42):
If a guy dialed a nine, you getnine dashes.
Then it'd be a space for a twoor a one.
That was before touchtone.
After that it became well whenit became touchtone, which we
thought was the biggest thing inthe world because we couldn't
get the number anymore.
But eventually we got aroundthat too.

Speaker 3 (23:00):
So it's like basically like the rotary phones
, it's like basically like therotary phones.
It's like giving you a call logof the calls going out and
coming in or just going out.

Speaker 2 (23:09):
Incoming in would be a series of short dashes, and
that was to let us know it wasan incoming.

Speaker 1 (23:22):
Outgoing would be nine long dashes there on a
white thin piece of paper, athin strip.
Yeah, let me just add that I'veworked with John on this and
not installing an app, but oncases in the gold industry we
would look for the couriers anda pen.
Correct me if I'm wrong, john.
It was good for like 60 daysand you had to renew it within
the 60-day period to get it tocontinue and do an affidavit why

(23:46):
you need it.
But it generated a lot of leadsthat you know you would instead
of you know following the targetaround and doing that, you
would find where he was callingor she, and it was a great tool
at the time, wow.

Speaker 3 (24:03):
But you have to like have some evidence come up in 60
days, or else it won't getrenewed, kind of thing.

Speaker 1 (24:09):
Well, yeah, usually you had it very fast.
It would come in and you know,creature's a habit, they're on
the phone and you'd say, oh,this isn't the.
We actually used these thingscalled crisscross directories.
Remember those, john, thecrisscross the books we had?
We had them in each group andagents.
You had to leave that bookthere because we were all

(24:31):
working cases and sometimessomebody calling sick and we
couldn't find a book to use, sowe had to go to another group.
It was really ancienttechnology, but but that's that
would list the addresses andstuff.
So we what we were doing istrying to save time and and and
the unit at customs I'm jumpingahead, but that John worked in.

(24:53):
They were, they were doing allthe electronic surveillance for
the whole, actually the wholestate, a lot of the time and
Beyond.
I'll let John continue with theBoston part.

Speaker 2 (25:05):
Go ahead.
No, the technical surveillancewas definitely necessary.
I didn't know if you wanted togo into that.
We had a lot of great casesthrough technical surveillance.
We worked with every agency theDEA, we had the abortion bomber
.
We were able to track down andget in New York before he blew

(25:27):
up.
Another unit and working withthem was great the ATF and all
the other agencies, becausenobody gave you a tough time, it
was just trying to get thetechnical part done and we
always was able to get thetechnical part done and it just
was great.
Okay, I don't know how far you.

Speaker 1 (25:48):
No, discuss the cases .

Speaker 2 (25:51):
We came up with the first ones that use tracking
devices, where you're able toput a gadget on a car and then
you sit in the office and watchit where it goes.
You know that was a companycame down and asked us to try it
out for them, and we did.
We put it on the car and wewere able to sit in the office
and have a map and see where theguy was going, so we didn't
have to follow him, and it was agreat invention.

(26:13):
We did that for hijackers,hijacking and everything.

Speaker 3 (26:17):
What year you know time frame was that?

Speaker 2 (26:20):
Oh, this was in the.
I guess the 70s.
Wow, yeah, the was in the.
I guess the.
Uh, the seventies Wow yeah, theseventies before.
Yeah, it was in about theseventies, I'm not sure the
timeframe about the seventies.

Speaker 3 (26:31):
So you'd have like a map?
Was it like a whole interfacewhere, because nothing was
digital, then obviously On thescreen, just like on the screen.

Speaker 2 (26:40):
Like you know, you have your, your, your, your,
your tracking.
Now to get it, where do youwant to go?
To a certain place, yourstreets and everything where you
have a voice.
Delegate.
This would give us the streetand follow the the item and a
tracking device was put on.
What it was was magnetic andyou could put it underneath the
car at one time and you can putit on without a court order.

(27:00):
Long as it wasn't in thedriveway of the guy's home, it
was on a public place.
You could go underneath andstick it on because you weren't
violating anything, and then youwould go home, back to the
office, call the office and youjust watch where the car went.
You know where you could watchit park and stop and everything.
That was the beginning of it.
That was the crude, that wasthe old method.

(27:20):
I'm sure it's far more advancednow than ever.

Speaker 3 (27:23):
Okay, do it from the satellite yeah, the gps, but
that was like I mean that thatmust.

Speaker 2 (27:29):
That was a yeah, that's, that's exactly where it
was before the gps.

Speaker 3 (27:32):
That must have felt like like james bond technology
it was.

Speaker 2 (27:37):
It was, it was.
It was amazing to givedemonstrations of it because
nobody could believe you couldsit in downtown in manhattan and
watch the guy drive around thecity and where he was going.
That's wild and everybody wasbored by it and I was awed by it
and the company that came downwas very generous.
That's that developed it,because they let us use it first

(27:58):
, and it was.
It was exceptionally great, itwas was wonderful.
Now I I'm trying to go down thelist here.
I'm trying to figure out what Imean.
I'm not sure of what kind ofinformation you want.
I'll tell you one quick story.
This is like one of the unusualthings.
Well, maybe it's against theFBI again, but that's all right,

(28:21):
I don't mind that a bit.
And we had an investigationgoing up in Hanover, mass, and
it was the FBI.
This one I think you'll enjoy.
This one was on organized crimeLebanese I think it was.

(28:41):
I'm not sure of that, but mymind is slipping.
But we went up there to meetwith them one night in Boston.
I was out of Fort Lauderdale.
I met with the FBI tech peopleand they had a bug which is a
microphone inside a business inBoston.

(29:02):
Well, not Boston, it was AnnArbor.
And I said, okay, and we had anorder to go in and put our own
bug in too, which is kind ofsilly, but we had an order.
But they said we had the orderand they said, okay, we're going
to remove our bug.
I said, don't do that, we won'ttouch the wires.
I said don't go in.
Again they said, oh no, we haveto go in, we'll do that, we

(29:25):
won't touch the wires, don't goin.
Again they said, oh no, we haveto go in.
I said, okay, we had a meetingthat night.
So the next day was a saturdaywhere I was meeting with uh, an
atf guy, and we were going to wewere, he was, he was the
undercover, he was going to takehis inside the office because
he he was dealing with thesubject and I was just, I was
from the ira and I was going tobe his communications guy as the

(29:46):
undercover.
So we met him in the morning.
It was, snow had just finishedand we were driving to his
office and as we're going in theoffice, he opened the door and
we went in.
As we were walking to theoffice to go to his private
office, I noticed a ladder allthe way in the back and I said,

(30:07):
oh so the my, the guy from theatf, the guy that was working
with the other officer.
He went inside with him and Isaid, give me a minute, I just
want to check out back becausethat was my job to check for
wires.
I went back there and here'sthe ladder up against the wall,
where the, where their bug was,where they put the wires for the
bug, and here that FBI propertyof the FBI, boston, written on

(30:29):
the side.
So I said, oh geez.
So I took the ladder and I wentout the back door and I tore it
in the snow and then I cameback in and we did our job and
eventually we got our job.
For part of being the IRA wasthey were getting hash oil
delivered and I was going to get, we were going to get guns.
That was the undercover withthe ATF and but it was was.

(30:52):
I couldn't believe it when Isaw the lettering and we threw
it out and we completed the caseand it was great, it was a good
case and it was the guys pledguilty.
It was part of an organizedcrime thing.
But during that investigationwhich puzzled me more than
anything, and I guess I neversaid it.
We came up with a part therewhere we remember the American

(31:18):
soldiers that were head of theprisoner Anderson.
They were held prisonerssomewhere in I'm not sure where
it was, but we found out theyhad the cells in Abscana County
underneath a gas station, terryAnderson Terry Anderson it was
him Journalist and so wesubmitted this information to

(31:39):
Washington DC and forgot aboutit.
And a year later I'm watchingthe film on television news and
there's our gas station andthey're taking them out of the
cells at Nevada which wereported a year before.
So I said, gee, how did they?
We told them about that a yearago.
How come they didn't doanything?
It's one of those things.
I'll probably get the hell beatout of me for that, but that

(32:00):
was one of the things.
It's great to get this stuffout.
Let me tell you.
Oh, now it's history.
Yeah, that's exactly right, itis history.
It is history.
It is history.
That was.
The latter incident was thefunniest thing that ever
happened to me with that and wecovered it up.
Nobody got involved.

(32:20):
The whole case continued onaway and it was.
We were lucky.
We were very lucky, or I shouldsayie benny and izzy was, but
it was.
We got a a lot, a lot of goodthings.
We tried different things.
We tried to just you know,interesting things that happened

(32:41):
.
We, I remember we were one nightputting a tracking device on on
a boat in pompano, florida,florida, and we had the police
department watching across thecanal in case something happened
.
If there was a run by thepolice, like a burglar or
something, they would be able tostop it because they were
watching us.

(33:03):
And as we were there, the guycame out and we were inside the
boat putting.
He had a wire in the trackingdevice.
There was three of us and weand he stood up right on top of
his dock and we were all quiet,laying down.
We all had dark clothes on andhe had a smoke and he tore it

(33:25):
away and he went back in and sowe'd be able to stall the
tracking device and got the hellout of there.
But the thing was that the theofficer that was assigned from
the police department.
He panicked.
He was so upset that he wasgoing to discover us and he
wanted to know what to do.
He was.
He came to us at the end.

(33:45):
He says what would you guysdone if he he found you?
Now he said he came to us atthe end and said what would you
guys do if he found you?
And we said we would probablythrow him in the water.
What, what do you mean?
Throw him in the water?
We're not going to get caught.
He says oh good, I didn't knowwhat to do if he came down there
.
It was a good series, a good eraand it was a lot of fun and we

(34:08):
tried to do all the jobs thatway and it's just, uh, it just
it's interesting.
I mean, there's tons of thingsI was on and I'm trying to
figure the white ones to do whatthey wants to, uh, that you
would enjoy or what people wouldenjoy.
Well, there's a lot ofbookmaking and how to move the
wires around.
That will wait as another dayin gambling.
You want to do one in gamblingeventually.

Speaker 1 (34:28):
Yes, we want that with you.

Speaker 2 (34:31):
Yeah, avoid that.
And we had to install a mic inNiagara Falls.

Speaker 1 (34:39):
In Niagara.

Speaker 2 (34:40):
Falls.
Where would you put it?
Here's what we did.
No, no, it was in a motel rightoutside Niagara Falls.
The motel was a horseshoe shapewith about, I think, uh, 30
rooms and they they used thefirst one on the right as you
came in now.
The purpose of this was not touse the telephone.
The guy used to sit there everyday and other people used to

(35:01):
come and get messages.
It was organized crime.
So they gave us the job ofputting a bug in there.
So we got a room down the otherend and we were in that room
and we're trying to figure outhow are we going to get in that
room to put a bug in there.
Plus, the owners might know.
So we found a trap inside ourlinen closet and the trap led

(35:23):
underneath the motel, which wasall sand.
So we crawled down in the sandand when we got to his hotel we
pushed open the trap and outcame a scale that they weighed
the drugs on.
So we knew we had the rightroom.
So we took down the scale andwe went up there and they used
to sit in a room.
There was wallpaper.

(35:44):
We moved the wallpapers and weput the microphone there back
down, close up the trap back toour motel room where the thing
was, and they had great successwith that.
But that was one of the mostinteresting ones because we got
to crawl maybe 20 yards in thesand on our belly to get to that
motel and make sure we had theright room above us, because all

(36:05):
those are connected on on theneat and it was.
It was an interesting thing andit was.
That was like one of the goodones and then one of the other
ones that I remember outstandingwas we had we used to get these
title trees, which is basicallya wire tap, and we were working
with our our west palm officeand customs and the titles they

(36:27):
were this they never had onebefore and I was up there to
instruct them and install it.
So we got it signed on a Fridayafternoon and I went to the
prosecutor and I said when arewe going to have minimization
hearings, meaning anybody thatsits in a wire must be
instructed by the US Attorney'sOffice about when to listen,

(36:47):
when not to listen.
So I talked to the prosecutionit's Friday, what are we going
to do?
And I said, well, let's callthe squad in and start the
wiretap.
And a lot of the cops were mad.
But we called it in and theyall came in and it was about 5
o'clock, 5.15, and everybody wasin the Fort Pierce office and

(37:09):
was sitting there and he saidand he's starting to describe it
and I put the machine down,plugged it in and in comes a
call and the attorney said okay,here it starts, here's how it
works.
In comes call and the call isabout the boat arrived, it's
down, it's on its way, it's asailboat and it's being towed

(37:31):
with the drugs in it up the up95.
Now we couldn't believe that.
That's.
That was the purpose of thewiretap.
So we had to get they.
They immediately left the roomand they got the.
Uh, they got the floridahighway patrol and we were able
they were unable to accept toget the coke and the sailboat.
Now that was the fastest wiretapever.
One call and that was it and itwas over.

(37:53):
Good thing we stayed, otherwisewe would get come the next day
or on saturday or monday and wesay, oh boy, what happened?
Somebody gave us up.
You know, we would be the worst, we would think the worst and
we got it.
We're just lucky.
The first.
Just they're given instructions, the us given it and then it
comes a call.
It's yes, we got it, we're onour way, and that was it, very
few words.
And the wiretap was over thecheapest wiretap I think we ever

(38:16):
installed, because we didn'tknow all the time.

Speaker 3 (38:19):
Know everything, you know paperwork and nothing ah,
so that's part of that's part ofthe cost of it.
Is the monitoring paying peopleto monitor it and sit there?

Speaker 2 (38:30):
over time.
You have to bring people inbecause you have to do sometimes
24 hours on it, so it's a bigcost and you have to lay out all
the plans for it and everythinglike that.
It is a big cost, but it'sdefinitely worth it if you have
the right subjects.

Speaker 3 (38:49):
Right.
So what's the range on thattransmission, the wiretap?

Speaker 2 (38:55):
Talking about range, we had to put a microphone once
in Washington DC a bug in anoffice and we monitored in our
office in New York.
That was a gadget that one ofthe private companies made for
me and I was part of theinstallation in Washington DC.

(39:16):
In fact it was the hardestinstallation because it was on a
person that slept in the office.
It was one of those buildingson DuPont that you could stay
there and it had a shower downthe block.
It had half a cafeteriamachines but the guy lived there
.
So it was really tough for us.
But he had one thing that healways played soccer every

(39:40):
Wednesday and he went at nightin Virginia.
He would take the car and wehad to wait for him to leave
before we could get up to hisoffice and put the bug in.
He had prostitutes to visit him.
He would never leave this placeand it was a very interesting
case.
But I'll never know the outcomebecause it all involved the CIA
and everything like that.
It was really unbelievablenames.

(40:01):
When we went in that office toput it in, it was you know the
names of spies.
So we were assisted then but wemonitored it in New York.
I had set the wiring up and wehad a gadget called a slave that
would transmit that they calledin from New York and it opened
the line right to them andwhenever he used the phone there

(40:23):
were two minimization in NewYork.
Nothing to do with theWashington office or anything
like that.
And that was the first time itwas ever done and it worked out
excellent, so it wastransmitting through the phone
line.
Yeah, right through the phoneline.
Wow, yeah, that was amazing.
Imagine just dialing one numberthat opened the lines.
It was just like a relay systemthat was wide open.

(40:45):
Yeah, yeah, it could beexpensive if you used real
telephone lines, but we used agovernment system which is like
what is that called?
What would we call thegovernment system?
Fts, john, fts, yeah, freetelephone service.

Speaker 1 (41:01):
Free telephone service.

Speaker 2 (41:05):
So it didn't cost how much it was.

Speaker 3 (41:11):
Call Grandma on.

Speaker 2 (41:11):
Sundayay how you doing that was.
That was a very interesting one.
We first time ever doneremotely and we didn't have to
have any go look for anyapartment down there or rent
department, everything like that.
We did it from the office innew york and it was, it was
installing the bug took about.
We did so much preliminary workon it.
We went in that night when heleft, when he oh but wait, when

(41:35):
we were standing in the duponthotel around the corner waiting
for him to leave for a soccermatch, which he did every
wednesday or whatever tuesday,and we met a, uh, one of the
reporters, that was an anchor,and he saw us there and we were
going in the back door and hewas coming out the back door and
he looked at us and he saidgood luck, fellas.
We said thanks, I mean he was Iwon't mention his name, but he

(41:58):
was good.
I don't know why.
He was coming out the back doorat the hotel and we were going
in the back door door and wewent down the block and
installed it.
Uh, that night it was really itwas.

Speaker 3 (42:08):
I enjoyed that case because it took a was a
challenge, it was a realchallenge so, so like it, I
would assume that getting caughtwould be the thing you're
worried about the most, rightwhen you're installing no, no,
oh you, you do precautions, youdo your job, you do your
homework you won't get caught.
So no one.
No one ever on the boat thatwas the closest call?

(42:30):
No one ever.

Speaker 2 (42:31):
Or actually in the closet.

Speaker 3 (42:32):
The closet was the closest call right.

Speaker 2 (42:36):
No, no, that was different.
I hid there on purpose.
That had nothing to do withwiretapping or anything.
Yeah, yeah, gotcha gotcha.

Speaker 3 (42:41):
I never got caught.

Speaker 2 (42:42):
Yeah, yeah, you never got, never got caught.
And because you, you got toplan this, you just can't jump
out and do something.

Speaker 3 (42:51):
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
No.
I was watching something youknow recently and they were
talking about wiretapping johngotti's like the hunting fish
club or whatever it was called,and yes, and there was a fish,
yeah, yeah, yeah, and they um,and there was like people
walking around and and whoeverthey were talking to, it seemed
like they all.
It was like a very close call.
It was almost one of thosethings where they came within

(43:12):
feet of them and it was like hadto have been terrifying oh,
yeah, that was.

Speaker 2 (43:16):
Yeah, that was.
They were trying to figure outwhere he was giving the orders
and they thought they weretrying to bug the club.
But he was giving the ordersfrom an apartment upstairs, from
one some woman who left,retired and moved out.
That's where he used to holdhis his thing.
That's where he had the bigconversation about granada.
I'll see me the bull and theyand that's when they found out

(43:37):
he turned on sammy the bull andthey just went and showed it
hurts.
Let sammy the bull see thisconversation and he became their
best informant ever and that'swhat that was the end of John
Cotting Right.

Speaker 3 (43:50):
Because Sammy figured he was done and so he flipped.
Oh yeah.

Speaker 2 (43:55):
They were so close and Sammy the Bull was his
right-hand man, is right and hedouble-crossed him.
He didn't like him, it was hisego.

Speaker 3 (44:05):
Were you involved in that at?

Speaker 2 (44:06):
that time or no no, I wasn't involved in none of that
, none of that, which was allright with me.
Yeah, they did a good job onthat, they, they.
But sammy the bull was the onethat when they turned him, that
was the end of god, he and allof them, and that was the best
thing that happened.
One of the interesting things Iran into that was one time we

(44:28):
were following a we call himlike a Broadway bookmaker.
He just he was.
I had, I was assigned to followhim and he'd come in by train
and he would go over by the NewYork Athletic Club in their
Central Park and he would sitthere and he would do his pay
and collects there.
Now I noticed one day when I wasfollowing was a spring day, it

(44:50):
was beautiful, and he met acouple of people.
I didn't know who they are, butone guy I thought I recognized
him but I could never repeat hisname because he looked like a
person that was well-known.
But I just let it go.
But I followed him later fromthen and he went to Dinty
Moore's restaurant, which was on47th Street and you have to
take an elevator up to DintyMoore's on the third floor, and

(45:13):
so I followed him up in theelevator and I looked inside the
restaurant, went inside andhe's sitting down with two other
people.
One I recognize one right awayis Frank Costello, and the other
one was an attorney.
So I called up the chief and Isaid hey, chief, let me.
I said this the bookmaker issitting with and he said go in

(45:35):
and arrest him.
I said, okay, what for vacancy?
Because they have no proof ofjobs.
There was a law on the books inNew York where if you didn't
have any gainful employment youcan't.
You have to have some sort ofgainful employment and have
identification.
And I announced myself andFrank Costello and the bookmaker

(45:56):
.
So the only person that didn'thave proof of employment was
Frank Costello, but he had themost cash.
So I arrested him for vagrancyand this was a big, big thing.
It was, I guess, a light day inthe city for nothing going on.
So I called the chief, I saidI'm taking him down in the car
to Manhattan Court and when Igot there it was like Times

(46:18):
Square with all the press.
I said I can't get over this.
Costello was very cordial andhe went along with the procedure
and I got him down to the courtand then the boss brought
another cop down from my officeto help me.
So you go in with thearraignment.
He wanted me to hide becausethey didn't want me to be seen.
So the cop went in with thearraignment and I hid.

(46:45):
But I talked to Frank on theway down.
I was telling him about the.
This was a times when there wasa lot of uh like talks about the
police department andcorruption and gambling and
everything like that.
And I told frank.
I said well, you're going to beinterviewed and everything like
that.
If you want to go out the backway, I'll take you out the back
way, whatever you want.
He went to court is he had his?
Like three attorneys came downand they settled the case
immediately in at a ring out,and so frank is coming out and I

(47:08):
asked him if you want to go out, I'll take you out the back way
.
And he said no.
So he went down in the elevatorand when he opened the elevator
all the press was there andthey asked him a question they
talked about one press guy wastalking about betting in new
york city.
Isn't it terrible?
And he said wait a minute, letme tell you something.
The way this department working.
They're doing the best job inthe world.

(47:29):
We can't get a bet in outsideof the track and I, oh boy, we
want it good.
And he looks over at me, wasthat okay, john, he was very
cordial about that, but that wasa very interesting time with
him.
He was very cordial about that,but that was a very interesting

(47:51):
time with him.
Frank Costello, he was quiteenjoyable, just for that ride
downtown and the arrest andeverything like that.
At Ninky Moore's.
He was the only one that gotarrested for three for vacancy
because the others had their W-2forms and everything with them.

Speaker 3 (48:03):
So he was the boss then right, he was the boss of
bosses.
He was maybe coming up throughthe ranks pretty high, I don't
know.
He was the boss then right, hewas the well, he was maybe
coming up, yeah, yeah.

Speaker 2 (48:11):
He was.
He was up there but I don'tknow what he was doing there,
but he was very, very cordialabout it and he was interesting.
And now it's just.
And then I did another greatthing that happened to me along
the way, when I left the policedepartment and I went to John
Jay and I just got a littletired of being at John Jay and I

(48:32):
was able to get into customs myfirst week in customs.
Our new deputy commissionergets a call that they want me at
the trial of the commissiontrial that's going on over in
New York.
That was the big trial with thecement where so much of 5% went
to the families of every dropof cement that was laid in New
York.
That was the big trial with thecement where so much of 5% went
to the families of every dropof cement that was laid in New
York City.
And so the guy I remember, ourguy said go ahead over there.

(48:57):
I went over there and then theFBI in their pursuit of this
investigation decided to putwiretaps on a lot of gambling
operations.
Investigation decided that toput wiretaps on a lot of
gambling operations and theyaccumulated quite a bit of
evidence.
So now the big defense was thelawyers, which was like four or
five of them, and and plus theall the mob guys.
The big defense was all this,this piece of paper, these

(49:20):
papers were all gamblingevidence.
So my job was to go to I.
I spent almost a week down atthe room going over all the work
, all the information.
They seized the paperwork.
And then came the trial.
So I went, so the trial wasgoing on and I was came.
I remember walking in to go tothe defendants who were there.

(49:42):
It was Fat Tony, salerno et al.
So as I was, as I walked to goto take the seat of the testify,
fat Tony stands up and says hey, you retired, you can't testify

(50:05):
.
He stands up in court and saysthis, this trial go on, is they
try to.
And I took these pieces ofpaper and I proved to them that
their pieces of paper was howmuch of every drop of cement,
what put in New York City?
5% went to the five families,1% to each family, and that was

(50:30):
millions and millions of dollarsworth of cement.
And so we were able to convictthem on that, because it was not
gambling paper, because theyhad boxes and boxes of evidences
that they brought in and I hadto go through a lot of it and it
was on the stand for I thinktwo days half and it was quite a
piece of.

(50:50):
The lawyers were good.
They were very smart lawyersthey were.
They knew their gambling butthey but I doing gambling too
long not to be able to fool methat they said this sheet of
paper that they had thispercentage of the cement went to
the five families and they gotconvicted.
That was a very unusuallyinteresting case.
I enjoyed that but I didn'tlike the week and stuck in the

(51:14):
office going through all thebets.
But that was part of the job,to be prepared.
It was a good time.
I got a quick question.

Speaker 1 (51:24):
Come on, so did you want to?

Speaker 2 (51:24):
know about.
What are you interested in?

Speaker 1 (51:25):
I want to ask you this is kind of off the beat,
but didn question I want to askyou this is kind of off the beat
, but Dinty, dinty Moore's isthat Dinty Moore beef stew they
sell?

Speaker 2 (51:37):
in stores.

Speaker 1 (51:38):
No, no, I'm thinking like we used to have that in my
house on like Fridays.
If my dad had a bad week ofsales, then we'd have Dinty
Moore B Stew and that there wasa five-star restaurant that was
owned by a woman.

Speaker 2 (51:55):
It was on the third floor, right off, I think, 47th
Street.
You had to go up and take theprivate elevator up to it.
It was really like a classrestaurant.
They had lunch there.
We were having lunch there.
It was really like a classrestaurant.

Speaker 1 (52:07):
Okay.

Speaker 2 (52:08):
And they had lunch there.
It was crowded.
No, Dizzy North was the name ofthe restaurant.
I don't even know if it stillexists.

Speaker 1 (52:15):
Huh, I have no idea, you know.

Speaker 2 (52:19):
Yeah, it was.
And now another crazy thing wehad one time was one of the
groups down there was gettingsomebody was getting the guns
from the arsenal in Knoxville,tennessee, and selling them to
the bad guys and the druggies,and it happened to be a sergeant

(52:44):
in the reserve and they wantedto know.
What can we do about this?
So what we did is we were ableto go to Knoxville, we put up a
camera I don't know if thiswould work, but it did work we
put up a camera on where theywould put the guns before they
were sold and we put the camerathere and we were able to

(53:04):
monitor the camera in Miami,which was very interesting.
It didn't produce that much thecamera there and we were able
to monitor the camera in miami,which was which was very
interesting.
It didn't produce that much thecamera, but it was.
It was an accomplishment to getit done.
And because I remember down Iwas in when I went down to the
blue ridge mountains to put thiscamera in, uh I, the truck I
had, I barred, ran off the roadbecause I was looking at where

(53:26):
the cable ran and I rode downthe hill about 100 yards so I
had to get it towed out.
But I used my private triple aso I didn't want it.
But that night, when I was readyto go home, they asked me to go
and check out this bar to seeif this particular sergeant is
there, because they I don't knowwhat they were doing.
So I said, oh gee.
So it took me almost 25 minutesto find it at night up in the

(53:50):
mountains.
So I found the bar and Iremember parking and it was a
lot of these, these trucks thereand everything.
So I went in and as I went ineverything stopped.
There was packed and I said ohgeez.
So I looked, I stood there inthe doorway and it was right by
the bar.
It started and people werelooking at me because I'm a
stranger, I don't belong there,and I asked them.

(54:12):
I said do I have to leave orcan I get a drink?
And the bartender was come onin.
And then everybody went back totheir business and, sure enough
, they asked me to look for themand the sergeant was sitting in
the back there with the peoplethey wanted to know.
They just wanted to identifyhim at that bar.
But it was kind of strange.
When I went in there,everything stopped and

(54:33):
fortunately you just got to be.
Oh my God, I wanted to leavebut the bartender wouldn't let
me leave and I was able to spothim.
I stayed a while, had a fewdrinks, then just left and he
was eventually arrested forselling the arms out of the
armory because he was in chargeof the armory.
He had like 30 years in theNational Guard, so he was gone.

(54:56):
That was one of the cases thatMiami held.
I'm sure you were aware of thatcase.
Jerry Lang had that case.
Yeah, gary, it was an exodus.

Speaker 1 (55:04):
Yeah, yeah it was an exodus case.
I remember that one.
Yeah, gary, it was in Exodus.
Yeah, yeah, it was an Exoduscase.

Speaker 2 (55:08):
I remember that one.
Yeah, it was an Exodus case.
You know what I?

Speaker 1 (55:09):
do remember, john, is we had a gold.
We were doing gold cases.
I wasn't the case agent but Ihad the undercover customs
brokerage and we had an agentworking with a convicted felon
who was an informant.
I had an agent working with aconvicted felon who was an
informant he's since deceasedand the operation's taken down

(55:30):
which it lasted over 20 yearsand it fell down due to
corruption with an agent, with alady who was his maid and
accepting watches and all this.
It's really sad, really pissedme off and I actually saw him
years later after he got out ofjail.
But anyway, this time we were.

(55:53):
I didn't do a lot of undercoverlike this Mostly the Hispanic
agents would do that but it wasmy chance, it was.
I was like a money guy, youknow, coming in from
Massachusetts, obviously, andthat, and we were meeting with
somebody that was interested.
So the agent who was workingthere was the broker.

(56:13):
So John had wired up the place,you know.
So it was activated if wepushed a button, you know, a
concealed thing and like a bank,you know, when somebody came in
.
So I'm sitting there and thisguy comes in and he says to me
he's nervous and I said to himoh, where are you from, I said
to me.
I said I'm from Massachusetts.

(56:34):
He goes, me too.
I went to NortheasternUniversity.
Where did you go?
And of course that struck abell.
So I said, well, I kind ofdropped out of Harvard, you know
.
I said and that but anybodythat goes to Northeastern,
there's a very high percentagechance they're a criminal
justice major and a federalagent, because we had programs,

(56:58):
co-op programs, that wouldgraduate.
We knew a bunch of people incustoms that did that.
Yeah, yeah, right out ofcollege you get a job, it's
great.
So I look at him and I goNortheastern.
Huh, okay, so we do the tape.
We agree to another meetinglater on.
So I was able to get a yearbookabout his approximate age and

(57:21):
identified him.
But what really struck me washe was the PIO person for the
FBI, the public informationofficer.
I knew I had seen him.
So anyway, went up, talked tothe FBI and said look, I don't
know what you.
He says well, one of thetargets we had, they were
looking at, they had seen himcome there.

(57:45):
You know, it was like the caseswere separate customs and the
FBI but because of installingthese devices, because what had
happened was.
We had surveillance teams inthe parking lot, fbi cars,
customs cars.
We didn't know each other,everybody's armed.
Now there's these mechanisms,now that when you do an

(58:09):
operation like that you're ableto clear with you know there's a
clearinghouse for lawenforcement which tells you you
know anybody else working this,not the facts of the case, but
just for safety.
So for safety alone, I'mgrateful to John Murray for
putting that in and setting itup, because otherwise, you know,

(58:31):
it could have been disastrous,you know, in that parking lot.
So that's probably one of thethings that we've seen.
I've also seen John's work.
John, do you remember?
You told me this story aboutthe hat with the camera in it
that they would use for aface-to-face.
They used this to hand-buydrugs and guns.

(58:55):
It was great.
The only problem is somebodyleaked it to High Times Magazine
.
You know it was the end of that.
But John, could you talk aboutsome some I'm sure everybody'd
be interested in the cases, likethe Wolf of Wall Street and
Serpico and that group?

(59:16):
Everybody's seen those movies.

Speaker 2 (59:20):
Well, the Wolf of Wall Street really was Dave
Marwell's case.
I was.
I assisted Dave because I usedto wire up the rooms for the
hotels on Florida and it wasnice to be able to go into the
Fontainebleau and the nicehotels like that and wire them

(59:40):
up for Dave.
They did such a great, a long,tedious, good job on it.
We never got caught andeverything went successful.
It was a successful thing.
The Wolf of Wall Street.
I take my hat off to Dave theway it was planned and you were
on that, toby too, with Davequite a bit.
It was an extremely interestingcase to watch and you sit back.

(01:00:03):
But another crazy one we had,you might know, was I was
assigned to the grand cayman acouple of times to go with one
group for to put in, you know,wire up people.
One was they had a uh, it wasone of the detectives from the
grand cayman couldn't arrestthis group of people and he
didn't know how.
So he told me where they weremeeting out in the Grand Cayman,

(01:00:26):
a certain spot where they sataround like a table outdoor
table.
But they couldn't get theseguys.
So I went up there.
I took him one day.
He was a detective.
He was a very nice detectiveassigned to Grand Cayman police.
We went up there and I lookedaround and I took one of the
pineapple coconut shells and Ibrought it back to the hotel and

(01:00:48):
I was able to.
I just took it apart and I puta KEL in it.
A KEL is a device that is amicrophone that is transmitted
at a certain at so many hertz.
So I put the and then we wentback that that morning early and
we put the coconut with therest of the coconuts that fell
off the tree and in comes thebad guys and all the

(01:01:11):
conversations he heard.
He was so excited, thedetective, they were able to go
in and arrest everybody thereand they had a big day and they
put him in the local jail.
But they were so happy there.
I remember we used to go to the,their local bar, which was
inside the compound, at nightand they would celebrate about

(01:01:32):
getting this particular guy andthe dogs.
So they asked me now to go intothe cells to put a microphone
because they had some murdersuspects and so you line up to
go with into the cells and thedogs are.
Really they accepted me and theother prisoners were wondering
why they accepted me.
Just to put, I wanted to put amicrophone in one of the cells

(01:01:54):
but that didn't materializebecause there was no place to
really hide it.
But it was amazing to work withthem, so, knowing the
detectives down there they had.
They asked me listen, we have acricket team and we're trying
to get uniforms for them, butthey have no money.
So I said how much do you have?
So I said well, when I get backto the city I'll go to a place

(01:02:16):
in the Bronx, new York, andwe'll find out.
So when I got back I went up toa uniform place in the Bronx and
the guy said he would do the 25.
He gave me 25 blazers with thewith the imprint of the cricket
team in it, to go down to the ata dirt bottom price.
So I called the detective thereand he said okay, here's what

(01:02:38):
we got to do Now how do we getthem down there?
They said we can't pay the dutyon this, cause it'll be more
than the thing.
So he got the grand Cayman uhairline to meet down in the
miami airport to meet me and Iran and I came in the back way
for which I was customs.
I was able to get to with thisbig box of 25 sports jackets and

(01:02:58):
they and they put it on thegrand cayman plane and they took
, and the plane took off andthey next thing I do, I got a
picture of the 25 minute marchinto a big cricket meet out
there with their uniforms.
It was really I enjoyed doingthat.
It was, we got it, we got itdone and they were so happy to
get their uniforms, the, the uh,the grand cayman police, and I

(01:03:20):
was, oh, that was a long timeago, jeepus.
You know, I'm sorry, tony, butit was interesting.
Once these things come back tome, they, they ring bells and
it's.
It gets me nostalgia in a way.
I mean I miss it.
It's been many years ago.
I mean I've been around a longtime.

(01:03:42):
I'm 87.

Speaker 1 (01:03:44):
I was telling the other day people that I've
talked to that's how you reallytell the real cops is if you
miss the job, you know, and youmiss it every day.
One of my mentors said to me.
He said I miss this every day.
You know, I really do.

(01:04:04):
And when you reconnect, I thinkone of our guests said it's
like 30 years have gone by in 10to to talk about that.
I.
I say it's like talking about awoman from 30 years ago.

(01:04:32):
You know she was the mostbeautiful girl in the bar.
Who knows what she looks likenow?
And vice versa, for you ladiestoo, the guy that was there, you
know, that's why people go toreunions you know, they don't go
there to renew, they just wantto see how everybody looks.
You know what happened to youover the years, so, and that um,

(01:04:53):
can you talk?
Can you touch on serpico alittle bit?
Your any experience that youhad?

Speaker 2 (01:04:58):
now, I'm really now, I'm really dating you now I'm
dating you, john murray, I knowI had one experience with
Serpico.
The chief of the public moralsdivision asked me to go with
Serpico to this place on 116thStreet where they're taking
policy bets.
Now I met Frank and we went upin one car.
I drove and Frank was.

(01:05:19):
He did not look like a cop, hewas a long beard.
He had an overcoat because itwas wintertime.
A long beard, he had anovercoat because it was
wintertime.
And we went up there and wewatched.
We were on 16th Street, we werewatching the people excuse me
going in a certain store and Isaid, okay, frank, there's your
place to go bet.

(01:05:39):
And he kept saying that he'd begetting made, he'd get made.
So oh boy, I mean I was reallyupset Get made man, get made,
it's all cheapest.
So I said okay.
After about a half hour I saidlet's well, if you think you're
going to get made, let's call itoff.
So I took him back toheadquarters and I went in to
see the chief.
I said don't you ever put meout with him again, because he
will not.
He would not do the job.
He said he'd get made me.
And it was perfectly right wayto do it.

(01:06:02):
People, and frank was the onlyone we could.
He could have got in and out ofanywhere the way he operated,
but that was the only time Iworked with sepulchral and that
was it it was.
I was very disappointed and andhe was so fearful of doing the
job, so we're just.
That's a shame.
Another one we had.

(01:06:22):
I had a great thing with thesmuggling group when I first
arrived there from the policedepartment.
They had a group out where theywere getting that cleaners on
Atlantic Avenue where they kepttheir frogman suits.
And what happened when the shipcame in, which was the docking,
was only about two blocks away.

(01:06:44):
It would tie up one of the bigshippings, one of the commercial
ships, and at the bottom of theship is an enclosed cabinet
under the water.
And that cabinet they found outthat cabinet they would put the
drugs in there.
So.
But you could search the wholeship but you could never search
out unless you went under thewater.

(01:07:04):
So the smuggling group got windof this and they wanted to know
it.
So we put a wire tap in thatparticular dry cleaners where
they would go and get theiruniforms and go down to the
water.
So one night I was going downthere because the wire broke and
they couldn't hear anymore.
So I said, oh, something'swrong.

(01:07:24):
And I just went from New YorkCity into customs and I said, oh
gee, I'll go out and get it.
And I remember I had a call insector and telling me he said
what do you mean?
Nobody does that here incustoms.
I said, well, I got to fix thatwire and so I went and he said,
okay, I went down there and Ihad to go around the corner on

(01:07:48):
Atlantic Avenue, go down astairway to the backyards, and
as I was doing that and this waslike maybe 9 or 10 o'clock at
night, winter night there was aguy attacking a woman and of
course I stopped that and thewoman didn't.
No prosecution, no cause, hedidn't get any far and we, so we

(01:08:09):
, he, we couple of clobbers, andon the way he went and we went
about our business and the womanthanked me.
Well, that was.
That particular incident was oneof the incidences we use for
people that were equipmentspecialists in customs to carry
guns.
Cause that's where I was, I wasall alone going down the
backyard in Brooklyn.
Well, we did, we did, we didcorrect it and we found out and

(01:08:36):
we watched the frogman, go downand take it out.
And they made a great case inthat they did store the drugs
there.
We the night we put the wire inoutcomes.
Then the next thing, you know,it revealed that the ship
arrived go get the drugs.
So they watched them.
These guys came, got theirfrogman uniform, they drove them
a block down to the pier, theygot out, they went in the water,
the two of them out to thecargo ship, underneath by the

(01:08:59):
propeller there's a door andthat's where the drugs were.
And they made a successfulseizure.
And that was an interesting onebecause I only just came to
customs about two days beforeand it was nice to be able to
see the smuggling group succeedin that.
It was crazy because the guyattacking the woman fortunately,

(01:09:21):
and I'm so happy, I was able tobe there at that time and it
was just we couldn't believe it.
Here is just got here and I'mjust going down this, the cellar
, walking down the long stairs.
Oh, and there it is andeverything ended well and they
got a good arrest and the womanwas pleased and happy and

(01:09:42):
everybody went home.
That was an unusual one and wehad one time putting in the
microphone was.
This was strange.
It was in the East 80s.
They got a bug order for anarcotics operation.
The DEA got the order and theyran into a little stumbling

(01:10:04):
block.
They gave me the order toinstall the microphone, so the
DEA was able to have uh greatconnections with the phone
company and they put the guy'sphone out of service.
So he had a call for serviceand so they they established,
and I was going to be theservice person to put in the mic
.
So I arrived at the apartment Ithink uh 2l at 80 and the guy

(01:10:29):
and a woman let me in.
She was scantily clad and shewas a woman let me in, and and I
went in there and I'm sayingwhat, where is the?
And there is.
The guy cut a hole in theceiling and he's the.
He had the second floorapartments besides the first
floor and he had the secondfloor apartments besides the
first floor and he had his ownstairway going up.

(01:10:49):
And he's up there yelling thathe had a terrible back pain that
he couldn't come down.
Now we have a court order toput a bug in where he is, but
he's not there.
He's going to be upstairs.
I said, oh, what the hell do wedo now.
So I remember backing out andtalking to the DEA guy and I
said we got to do somethingabout this and he said okay.
He said what do we do?

(01:11:09):
So I said I come up with anidea, get me a long wire.
So I so I went there and Italked to the girl and oh, she
was followed me like anything.
She was suspicious.
The guy was a known narcoticsdealer.
I went up the steps and talkedto him and said about his, about
his back was killing him, and Iexplained to him.
I said listen, I need the phoneworking.

(01:11:31):
I said okay, I said I'll makesure that you don't have to go
down and get it.
How about if I give you a longextension?
He thought that was great.
So I took the extension, Iinstalled it downstairs, where
the court order said, and I putit on the phone and I gave him a
long wire.
But I didn't touch it then andthe girl brought it up to him
and brought up the bug up thesteps, gave him the bug and we

(01:11:55):
went about and when we got himhe got 40 years in jail.
That's up there.
I remember that.
But we didn't violate the order.
I installed it in the apartment.
The order said I didn't move it, they took the phone and
dragged it upstairs.
I remember the apartment.
The order said I didn't move it, they took the phone and
dragged it upstairs.
I remember they got me a biglong wire and I attached it to
the phone for him and he.
He wanted to give me a tip andeverything for giving him the

(01:12:16):
phone and it was because he wasup one flight up.
It was amazing when I walked tothat apartment saw how this guy
in and up went through concrete.
Well, he was very, verysuccessful narcotics dealer and
they had that spiral staircasecoming right down.
Probably would be good atgetting out of prison right with
those skills.
He got 40 years and he had anunusual name, but I don't want

(01:12:40):
to.
He's well-known in the area upthere.
He's a real bad, bad dealer andthat was an interesting one and
it was a good one.
I enjoyed going up there.
He's a real bad, bad dealer.
So, and that was an interestingone and it was a good one.
I enjoyed going up there.
But I remember handing her thephone and and he's thanking me
very much and but I wasn't goingto give him the phone because
that would be a violation of theorder.

(01:13:00):
I installed it in the apartmentwhere the order said what she
did with it.
I didn't know.
And she right up the stairs asI was leaving, they give him the
phone and then he did all hiscalls from there.
But that phone was installed inthe apartment we had the court
order for and it was successful.
The lawyers liked it andeverything.

Speaker 3 (01:13:21):
As a service tech, as a telephone guy, you really
went above and beyond to makesure he could access that phone.

Speaker 2 (01:13:28):
You never know what you're gonna do.
You gotta go, you gotta goabove and beyond every case, I'm
here from the government.

Speaker 1 (01:13:33):
I'm here to help you.

Speaker 3 (01:13:34):
Yeah, yeah, he's the nicest phone guy ever but you
gotta play, you gotta offer,turn yourself right into that as
you do it.

Speaker 2 (01:13:43):
yeah, you know, you gotta really you gotta take five
minutes out to change yourattitude and have your attitude
one way and not be suspiciouslooking or look around.
You got to be one and that'sthe way you got to train
yourself.
It's a little bit of acting,but it was necessary.

Speaker 3 (01:14:00):
Yeah, that seems just as undercover to me as any of
the other undercover type things.

Speaker 2 (01:14:05):
Yeah it is.
It's not just going out andbuying drugs and everything like
that.
Uh, you know, but it was.
It was an interesting thingwith him and he got 40 years.
He was a big drug dealer.
I didn't know.
We had that in case too withwith another one up in the bronx
where one of the wires wherethe dea was working it and the

(01:14:26):
wire broke and we had a wirethere too and I had to go down a
certain yard that had a real, aGerman shepherd.
That was as mean as hell and Iknew I could never get into that
basement.
So I spent about whenever timeI went out and I went out for
about a week and about six orseven times I would stop by and
give him a cold cut, this Germanshepherd.
I told him something to eat, soI'm something to eat all the

(01:14:47):
time, and about six or seventimes I would stop by and give
him a cold cut, this Germancheck.
I told him something to eat,told him something to eat all
the time.
So then came the time that Ihad to go in now to see why this
wire wasn't working.
And so now, with the day that Ipicked that morning, I did it
in the morning, figured it was asafe time.
The bad guys are still sleeping.
I remember going down the stairsto the back and out comes a guy

(01:15:10):
with a machine gun around his,with a around his stomach
machine gun, holy shit.
So I, I, I I just said atelephone, I'm gonna do my
business.
And he looked at me and I hadall the proper stuff and he went
about his business because hedidn't care, because he said the
dog would.
No, the dog saw me and the tailwas going a mile a minute

(01:15:34):
breakfast.
He couldn't.
So the guy was very suspicious.
Then I said well, he doesn't,maybe don't like black people,
maybe he just likes white people.
And he said that must be it.
So the dog wouldn't let him in.
But the dog let me in, me in,and it was a good case for the
DEA to fix that wire and theyhad.
It was called Black Friday.
It was a big arrest on theirpart and that was.

(01:15:57):
I thought that was great, butthe dog was unbelievable.
You know, there was one timebefore just I should have said
that first where I had to godown there to see if it was all
right, and I was going down andhe wasn't around and so, oh
shucks the poor daughter wherehe is.
So I went to do my little thingin the box.
Next thing you notice it's myshoulder, there's a paw, and

(01:16:18):
there he is.
He come up to say hello to meand I had had his food for him
too.
I used to buy bologna for him.
I one time I gave him turkey.
I wanted to get a good roastbeef was the day when I went in.
I brought roast beef with meand he was my friend.
He would stay right with mewhile I did my wiring in the
basement.
He protected me.

Speaker 1 (01:16:37):
You should have brought him filet mignon after
the guy with the machine gun.
It was such a nice dog.

Speaker 2 (01:16:44):
I mean, he was ferocious when I first met him
and I would have loved to havetaken him home but I wouldn't.
But he was a nice animal and Iwasn't afraid of him.
After a while he was just mybuddy.
He would sit there with meinside the cellar.
It was nice to have company.
You know, it's just, it wasjust unbelievable.

(01:17:10):
We had many, many things likethat with the with Haida was a
big thing when we got Haida.
Haida was a high intensity drugtrafficking area and they gave
us the budget and we set up aspecial room in in Florida for
the monitoring team, which Iturned out pretty good Toby,
you've been in that room and itwas very proud to do that.

Speaker 1 (01:17:33):
No, that was, that was good, I wonder.
I wonder if we can talk aboutthe national hockey league a
little bit.
Oh sure, the, the, the.
I know you do.
It was my pleasure, like I saidbefore, working with him for a
year.
It was really really good times.

(01:17:53):
He knew where the good coffeewas in the arena, so that made
it good.
That's very important to me,especially in between periods,
you know, when there was a lotof activities.
But, john, could you explain tothe viewers what I talked to
Sean O'Connor?
He's going to come on and he'sgoing to talk about club

(01:18:15):
management and on that side, andEmilio is going to come on and
talk about his experiences withthe New Jersey State Police.
So we have quite a people.
But Sean was the securitymanager for the Panthers quite a
people.
But Sean was the securitymanager for the Panthers.
Uh, john, like I said, wasactually the most senior
representative of the NationalHockey League assigned to any

(01:18:36):
team.
Uh, you know, and that and didit for over 30 years, did it 30
years and, uh, you know Emiliois is here now he's, he's come
from New Jersey to Florida, soit was a great fit.
Sometimes you go into jobs andyou got to know the people.
We bonded instantly and lastyear we had the privilege of the

(01:19:02):
All-Star Game which was heldthere a special event and went
to the finals with the playoffs,so it was a real, real good
experience for me personally.
So, john, can you explain whatthe role of the NHL
representative is as far as withthe National Hockey League?

Speaker 2 (01:19:22):
Absolutely, it would be fun.
I was fortunate to get this jobwhen the Panthers was created
back in 19,.
I forget the date, but it was30 years ago and the head of it
was Dennis Cunningham, who wasthe head of the NHL security,
and he immediately called me upbecause he knew I was a hockey
buff Ever since I was.
When I was assigned as a cop inNew York.

(01:19:44):
We would go up to MadisonSquare Garden quite a bit and he
called up and I became thehockey rep.
The hockey rep was a personresponsible for the personnel of
the NHL and any kind of troubleor problems they would have or
any kind of scandalous thing wewould step in.

(01:20:04):
The first team to come down was.
I remember the first assignmentI had was meeting, uh, like ron
niedermeyer, taking him tobrian benning's house.
That was one of the bigassignments and they worked in
first draft pick yeah, yeah,their first draft pick was rob
niedermeyer and and so he was,and we had the rink was the

(01:20:28):
glacier r Pompano, which was anold-time rink, and the Panthers.
That was their camp.
They got that before they movedto Coral Springs to the ice
stand, but they played there forthe first couple of years I got
to meet.
All the Panthers was like anexpansion team, so they threw
together a lot of players thatwere over the hill, too young.

(01:20:52):
Some teams didn't want them andthey became a great team and
knowing them and getting to knowthem was amazing.
They are the greatest bunch ofpeople and they were a little
bit wild because they were brandnew, but they were wonderful.
They all ate together and theyall worked together and a lot of

(01:21:12):
little things happened, but wedon't want to mention that.
We don't want to damage them orlet their wives know or
anything like that.
We used to have a lot of.
When it started, they had a lotof people following them.
They used to have down at thegrounds.
Women used to come and waitthere for them to come out and I
would go over.
Some of the players liked that,but I would go over and talk to

(01:21:35):
the girl after seeing her a fewtimes and tell her, hey, you
don't want to hang out with him,I think he has AIDS.
And boom, they'd be gone.
The player would come out andlook around.
I was supposed to meet someonehere, john.
Oh, I think she left.
She didn't want to see anymore.
I was just doing that because Igot to know them and their
families and they were thegreatest bunch of guys in the
world.
And it went on and they did agreat thing.

(01:21:58):
Their second year they went allthe way to the finals and they
lost in the finals.
But that was a brand new teamand got to know their families
because everybody moved.
I lived in a place in watersidein florida and this had a hot
tub, but so the panther playersall lived in that area at that
time because they would drive tothe company, so I would leave

(01:22:19):
the gate open so they can comein if they had to use a hot tub
and they go into the hot tub andI'd develop it.
But otherwise you have to havepasses for the gate and
everything like that.
And that was with the knowingthem and got to know their
families.
They're the greatest bunch ofpeople in the world and the
honest people, and they'reunbelievable compared to any

(01:22:40):
sport.
I was in Major League Baseballfor quite a while too, and I
still enjoy the hockey playersmore than anyone, and now I
watch them grow.
I went to 30 years with themand they changed management last
year and it's lucky becausethey have good people in charge
now and he's excellent to runthe show and he took my place

(01:23:06):
and I'm happy and I've been atone game so far.
I intend to attend some moregames.

Speaker 1 (01:23:11):
What are the responsibilities?
I think that's what everybodywants to know.

Speaker 2 (01:23:15):
Like with the referees, I know them, but you
know you were there from thebeginning.
Right, the security was theprimary target was the visiting
team and the referees that wasyour ones that you really had to
be concerned about.
The home team they're at home.
They're not going to have manyenemies or people that don't
like them there.
It was the referees who, ofcourse, the referees they

(01:23:39):
wouldn't be.
They'd get in trouble, but theywouldn't.
They would be hurt.
If somebody was like the fansdidn't like them, it was a bad
call, and then they didn't likethe player.
If it was a bad call, too, theywould get.
They would be yelling andscreaming at the hey, the ref
sucks this.
And so that's who you had towatch out for Make sure they
arrive safely, make sure theyleave safely.

(01:24:01):
They had the referees and thevisiting team was on one side,
so that's where you devoted mostof your attention.
The officials, the referees andthe officials were a great
bunch of people and they, butthey were always.
No call, always is right.
And then the teams that wouldwant to come down and the
managers talk to the refs why'dthey make that call?

(01:24:22):
But they weren't allowed in theroom.
If they ever walked into thatroom without checking with me
first, they get a $10,000 fine.
So that's how they protect thereferee of the National Hockey
League.
But no one ever did it.
And they had one coach that waskind of in Philadelphia that
was kind of pushy and get in,but we let him go.

(01:24:43):
And then there was anothercoach in Toronto.
He wanted to challenge me to afight and I said, nah, I'll get
out of here.
And so we got along well and itwas great to watch these guys.
They're the salt of the earth.
They're really good people.
I enjoyed seeing all of thembreak in the rookies and

(01:25:04):
everything, especially in thebeginning where they were a
little bit wild because it'sFlorida, they would
unfortunately get involved instrip joints.
But everything went out goodToday, absolutely 100%.
There's less work to do andwatch them now.
It was really amazing.
We had a couple of incidentswith them when they were younger

(01:25:25):
and everything worked outperfectly.
That was my greatest 30 yearsworking with the NHL.
I enjoyed it tremendously andDennis Cunningham was the tops
and it was good.
It was great.
They were just a nice bunch ofpeople.
What a great place to go isdown to the rink and have the
people there and work and makesure everything is running right

(01:25:46):
.
I can't say enough about that.
I wish I was still there, butyou've got to move on.

Speaker 1 (01:25:54):
It was a well-oiled machine, John, and everybody
knew their jobs.
The security people there gotalong, Even the fans.
Occasionally you'd have to talkto them, you know, because they
get upset with referees and youknow it was a great experience
to see behind the scenes andsome of the stuff that the

(01:26:18):
players goofing around, you know, especially at the All-Star
game, because everybody wasloose and everybody had fun.
Yeah, that's right, but no.

Speaker 2 (01:26:28):
And they all played before the game.
Remember the warm-ups Soccer.

Speaker 1 (01:26:31):
Indoor soccer.

Speaker 2 (01:26:33):
How they warm themselves up.
They would play soccer.

Speaker 1 (01:26:36):
In the hallway, in that little area.

Speaker 2 (01:26:38):
Yeah, and they would be really.
That's where you saw adifferent side of them compared
to on the ice, and it was reallyrefreshing.

Speaker 1 (01:26:47):
Oh yeah, I think the best thing about the NHL is they
make them dress and put a coaton and leave.
They don't go out in sweats,they get on the visiting team
bus and you know coat and tie.
You don't see that anymore inprofessional sports.
You know, usually I thinkhockey is the only sport that
still does that you know wherethey have to show up like that

(01:27:10):
and leave, like that, so and andthat.
So it's interesting.

Speaker 2 (01:27:16):
Well, go ahead.
The fans were interesting tooand they and what they the some.
We had a fan one time this isworth mentioning in Miami.
They were playing in Miami.
This kid had a palsy thing.
He was in his 30s and he alwayshad a guide with him.

(01:27:38):
I always saw him there and hewas a nice kid and he told me he
got permission one day.
He said I felt so bad for him.
He was always crumpled up andhe said if I could please get
him to meet mario lemieux.
So, jeepers, I said I don't, Iwouldn't, I don't think they
allow that.
I said but okay, I said, cometo practice at the before the

(01:27:59):
game.
He did came.
He came with his helper and hewas out waiting there at
practice and lemieux came offthe ice from his practice and he
gave him a stick and he talkedto him.
Well, this kid was cured, hestraightened up and he spoke.
Well, I just couldn't believeit.
I watched this in completeamazement and he got so overcome

(01:28:23):
with it that he was absolutelydidn't have any symptoms
whatsoever and Lemieux was sogood to him and talked to him
and everything.
And this kid, they had to takehim home.
He got so emotional and it wasso nice to see the way the
hockey players stopped, talkedto him and what he did for that
five minutes for that kid wasthe most amazing thing I've ever

(01:28:43):
seen.
How he straightened up fromthis all crawl.
He was all punched up like thisand errors and he was so happy
and he left with a stick signedby Mario and it was, it was.
I take my hat off to that manfor doing that.
Oh yeah, the players are reallynice.

Speaker 1 (01:29:03):
So typical, yes, yes, and the way they talk to the
fans and and everything likethat.
So, yeah, well, let's leave thison on a great note like that.
John, we're going to have youback on the gambling, because I
think that that's something thatand we'll talk about, now that
gambling's been open up toprofessional sports, what are

(01:29:27):
the drawbacks and what, what wehave to be aware of to see which
might happen.
You know, as far as the betting, as they put the odds on the
screen while the game's going onand you wonder if the players
will hopefully not get involvedin that.
But you know, with big money onthe table, you never know Like

(01:29:47):
with boxing, it was the same way.
You know, with big money on thetable, you never know Like with
boxing, it was the same way.
You know, there's big purses onthe table.
They bet will there be a draw,knock down in the second round?
It's become even the singing ofthe national anthem how long
it'll be.
You know and you've pointedthat out to me and I'm like I
never thought of that.

Speaker 3 (01:30:07):
Yeah, the Super Bowl prop bets, you know?

Speaker 1 (01:30:09):
Yeah, I mean it's, it's, it's, it's there and I I
hopefully it won't lead to a bigscandal, but if it does, it may
take down sports as we know it.
You know, and I want you togive your opinion on it, because
you've been in the sportsindustry and you've also been in
the law enforcement industry,and what your feelings are, and

(01:30:31):
we're going to have anindividual who was involved in
gambling and went to jail andnow talks about it on an
upcoming podcast, and I think itwould be good.

Speaker 2 (01:30:44):
The gambling.
I've been doing research on itsince you told me that would be
one of the subjects.
The gambling I've been doingresearch on it since you told me
that would be one of thesubjects.
And what surprised me.
I mean I went over to all thethings with the CCNY scandal way
back in the 50s where itstarted with basketball.
That was one of the bigscandals first and then it had
other little scandals and otherbig scandals with the referees
after.

(01:31:11):
But it's amazing what Idiscovered in looking at this
all the gambling and all thepeople that the advertisement
and the betting comes rightacross during intermission or
they're taking a break now froma period or commercial.
There's the gambling bet, thisbet, this that's the cheapest.
I'm shocked at it.
But now you know there's onegroup who is monitoring the
gambling and I told Toby you'llnever guess who, he could never
guess it.
But now you know there's onegroup who is monitoring the
gambling and I told Toby you'llnever guess who, he could never

(01:31:32):
guess it and I have the reporton it the UN.
Can you imagine that the UN ismonitoring the betting of the
gambling in the United States sothat I have prepared, ready to
go and tell you what they can do, what they want to do, but I
couldn't.
I was shocked when I found theUN involved in it.

(01:31:53):
What do you think of that, jeff?
Could you think of the UN wouldever be involved in monitoring
the gambling?

Speaker 3 (01:31:58):
Well, you know, I guess now everyone can gamble on
their phones, so it needs to besome sort of like not national,
you know oversight, but I meanyou could be in any country and
gamble on your phone real time.
You know oversight, but I meanyou could be in any country and
gamble on your phone real time,you know.
So, yeah, it would have to besomething above any one country,
I would assume, but I don'tknow.
I'm looking forward to that.
I'm looking forward to the, tothe information I was shocked

(01:32:20):
myself.

Speaker 2 (01:32:20):
I was reading like any like, like I was a brand new
rookie.
I said the UN, I said wait aminute, I just this page is
wrong.
And sure enough, there it is.
I'm reading all what their,what their plan is, what their
outline is, and the grant, oh,it's the cheapest.
This is amazing.
So there's, there's people wayin the back there are concerned
about.
You know, it's one of thosethings that Houston, houston, we

(01:32:41):
got a problem, we got a problem.
You know it's got it's going to.
It's going to be terriblescandals down because there's so
much money involved in it and Ijust hope, some sport somebody.

Speaker 1 (01:32:53):
Let's hope they don't bet on how many teeth players
lose on the ice.
Yeah, they do, that would be.

Speaker 2 (01:32:59):
Because when I was doing Major League Baseball, I
was doing the AAA teams andthings like that, and one of the
things that this is many yearsago, one of the things that came
to me was this one kid came tome one day at the AAA game and
he said you know, and he's apitcher, and but he, he says he,
he wants to talk to me.

(01:33:19):
I said what's the matter?
He says well, he says this guyhere wants to take, give me a
car and help me, and we werewarned to talk to you if
anything.
I said well, who was it?
What happened is he was achecker in the publics, but he
didn't.
He didn't earn enough and theywant this was an organized crime
guy grooming this kid that'sgoing to be an official in
baseball.
And I told him don't take thecar and I've got them.

(01:33:42):
I got the, got him away from andhe thanked me very much.
Just cut your ties with himbecause he was grooming this kid
to be to be part of the controland it's just.
You know, I couldn't believe itand how, how they exactly reach
back into the minor leaguesbefore he's even a referee or an
official in the triple a.

(01:34:03):
So they.
So you got to watch anything toget the edge.
Anything to get the edge in.

Speaker 1 (01:34:10):
Well, that'll be a, I'm sure, an interesting.
I know it will be.
People watch that because it'scoming.
It's coming and it's like yousaid, there's going to be the
good, bad and the ugly with that.

Speaker 2 (01:34:21):
So that's, you know that's, that's, that's the way
to put it and I hope it, I hope,I hope it don't happen.
But too much money is involved,toby.
No, I know Too much money isinvolved in it.

Speaker 1 (01:34:34):
It's all about the business now.

Speaker 2 (01:34:36):
It's like the Goodfellas.
Remember the Goodfellas.
Remember Henry Hill was in jailin Philadelphia and he was
jailed with Coon and his brotherplayed for Boston, boston
College.
Yeah, the scandal up atNortheast.

Speaker 1 (01:34:50):
Yeah, the scandal.

Speaker 2 (01:34:52):
Yeah, that was part of Goodfellas Shaving.
He was able to convince them.
He was able to convince threeplayers.
You're not going to make theNBA Take this $10,000.
Just shave the point.
Don't lose the game.
And that was a big thing, thatwas a part of Goodfellas the
movie.
That was a big thing, that wasa part of Goodfellas the movie,

(01:35:12):
and that's all I'm trying totell them here.
Just don't lose, you're notgoing to hurt the school.
Just take the money.
And they took the money andthey got arrested for that and
they cooned and I forget theother kid's name, and so that's
what the deal is.
You can make an astronomicalamount of money and still not
lose.
Just shave that.
For me, it's the line thatcounts.

(01:35:33):
What is the line?
It's not who wins or loses,it's the spread, that's it.
It's not who wins or losesanymore, it's the spread, and
that's what controls allgambling.
Now, if you want to know, Iusually bet.
I bet you this, wins, that wins.
I bet you dollar here.
Now, it's the spread thatcounts.

(01:35:54):
What is the spread?
Oh, I'm sorry, I jumped off thesubject no, no, no, no, no,
that's.

Speaker 1 (01:36:01):
That is the subject we're foreshadowing, we're going
to get to the next one withthat, but I wanted to thank you
and uh you know, and uh pleasurefor coming on and uh your
perspectives on the technologyand your career, which, uh, you
know, is uh tremendous, and uhalso the gambling, and uh

(01:36:24):
talking about that briefly todayand in a future show and uh,
you know, I I don't haveanything else, jeff, are you?

Speaker 3 (01:36:33):
No, I think this was a great session and I'm looking
forward to the next one.
It's great meeting you, John.

All Episodes

Ep 4: John Murray - From Surveillance Innovation to the NHL

Episode Transcript

Popular Podcasts

Crime Junkie

24/7 News: The Latest

Stuff You Should Know

.css-15opob5{left:0;position:absolute;top:0.8rem;} All Episodes

.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}Ep 4: John Murray - From Surveillance Innovation to the NHL