Ep 6: Pete Thron (Part Two) - Imprisoned NYPD Officer Turned Author

In this gripping episode, Pete Thron takes us on an unforgettable journey as he recounts the harrowing conclusion of his court case, his time behind bars, and his path to redemption. From the biased sentencing that shattered his life to the mental and physical struggles of surviving prison, Pete's story is a testament to the resilience of the human spirit. Listeners will get an inside look at the harsh ethical dilemmas of 80s and 90s policing, and how Pete navigated these challenges both as a cop and as an inmate.

Explore the psychological and physical toll of incarceration for a former law enforcement officer. Pete opens up about his time in protective custody, his feelings of shame, and even his thoughts of suicide. His relentless efforts to stay mentally and physically fit as a coping mechanism reveal the complexities of prison life. Hear about the intense encounters with other inmates, including a tense interaction with a white supremacist, and the journey towards his eventual parole. Pete’s honesty and strong record of behavior played a crucial role in his parole being granted, marking a pivotal moment in his story.

Transitioning from prison to becoming a successful author, Pete shares the inspiration behind his books and the challenges he faced in the publishing world. He discusses his latest works, including a novel about an undercover agent and his potential book on clemency. His journey is not just about survival; it's about thriving and finding a new purpose. This episode offers a raw and compelling look at Pete Thron's resilience and dedication, making it an essential listen for anyone interested in the complexities of the criminal justice system and the power of personal redemption.

Produced by: Citrustream, LLC

Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:00):
This will be part two of the interview with Pete
Thrun for Justice Then, justiceNow.
Pete, as you know, is anaward-winning author.
He's written numerous books Imean numerous law enforcement
books on Amazon.
One of these I have a stake in.

(00:23):
It's called Behind Blue Eyes.
I'm very grateful for him forwriting it and it's about 14
cases long and talks about casesthat I worked over my 40 plus
year career.
Okay, pete has written a newbook.
I'll let him talk to you aboutthat.

(00:45):
That's just come out and is abestseller on Amazon in the law
enforcement category, and he'salso going to discuss what's
happened to him since the firstepisode that was cut, which he
described his career in New YorkCity as a police officer and

(01:07):
doing investigations and makingarrests and everything that goes
with the territory making overa thousand arrests and the
unfortunate circumstances thathappened to him, which he's
going to pick up from.
That happened to him, whichhe's going to pick up from, and
we're going to discuss alsowhere Pete is going now in his

(01:29):
career as a writer.
And as for this show JusticeThen, justice Now he has a
unique perspective on thecriminal justice system and will
be a frequent guest.
I don't want to give the basisof the second part away, so I'll
let him talk about it, and then, in the final closing chapter

(01:54):
of today, he will discuss whathis future plans are.
Pete, great to have you.

Speaker 2 (02:02):
Thanks Tob, have you?
Thanks, tob.
I appreciate again being on andI do appreciate being part of
Just as Then, just as Now.
I'm looking forward to thefuture with you guys, you and
Jeff and I'm honored to be apart of this.

Speaker 1 (02:19):
We appreciate having you and that, and you have a
truly unique perspective on this.
Besides being my friend forlife, you know it's.
It's wonderful to hear yourstory and what you're doing and
that you got a new book out isfantastic.

(02:41):
We talked briefly about it.
It's an in-depth I guess youwould call a manual.
This is a little different foryou in achieving this.
It's an investigator's manual.
So anyway, let's pick it up,though.
Last time we were discussingthat you had gone to court and

(03:02):
what happened at the conclusionof your case before the judge
and that, and then we'llcontinue on with our
conversation.

Speaker 2 (03:13):
Okay.
So I was found guilty by thejury.
I was found not guilty of themajor charge, thank God, which
they had me for a robbery.
They found me not guilty forthat and the DAs that I had been
really close friends with andthe cops that I was close with,

(03:37):
like I told you earlier in thefirst episode, we had sat down
when this all happened to me andwe had dinner and I put out all
the paperwork of the casebefore I went to trial and even
the DA said listen, if they findyou not guilty of the robbery,

(04:00):
all the other charges have to bethrown out because there is no
case.
All the other charges have tobe thrown out because there is
no case.
And I got found not guilty andthat wasn't the case.
I mean it was.
I don't want to get political,but the judge was very biased
against law enforcement and I'lltell you a little about that in

(04:22):
a second.
And he did some unethicalthings while charging the jury
and most police officers.
I know as a police officer Iknew two books.
I knew my patrol guide.
I didn't always follow mypatrol guide.
I didn't always follow thepatrol guy.
I didn't always follow therules.

(04:43):
I'd be the first one to saythat, because there's sometimes
rules just don't apply in thestreet.
Toby and rules have their ownthe rules.
The streets I worked in theyhad their own rules.
In order for me to survive, Ihad to adapt to those rules.
It was a game.

(05:04):
It's still a game.
If you're a cop now, you rules.
It was a game, it's still agame.
If you're a cop now, you bettertreat it like a game and it's
us against them, it's the badguys against the good guys.
And rules don't apply in thestreet.
You have to follow them,because if you want to keep your
job, I understand that, but ifyou want to stay alive in my

(05:28):
case, back in the 80s and 90s,those rules were bent to stay
alive.
I was in three shootings.
I had my nose ripped off, myface with a .45 automatic and
after that everything was outthe window.
So I was going to be the firstone to strike instead of being
struck, and after that,everything was out the window.

(05:48):
I was going to be the first oneto strike instead of being
struck.
That being said, I went totrial for the crimes that I was
locked up for and I beat therobbery.
Thank God because I would havegotten this judge would have

(06:09):
given me 25 years in prison.
That's how much he did not likelaw enforcement officers.
I was found guilty of the lawcity of the money that I turned

(06:29):
in and vouchered that I had doneover a thousand times the same
way, as found guilty offalsifying my memo book and
documents that another officerfilled out and that became a
problem.
So I had toget.
I waited a month to besentenced and I got a bunch of
letters written for me and I hada captain, captain Lennox, and

(06:55):
he was a sergeant at the time.
He actually became a chieflater on in his life, sergeant
Hawk, who I was basicallypartners with when I drove him
as a uniform officer.
They wrote me letters withother cops and when I went to my
sentencing I asked the judge ifyou might.

(07:15):
My lawyer asked the judge if hecould read the.
I had about 30 letters beforesentencing, so he said yes, he
agreed to it.
He said go have some breakfastand come back here in an
hour.
And when we came back the judgewas livid.
He smashed his gavel down.

(07:35):
He said what irks me more isthat you had the audacity to
give me these letters from acaptain and a sergeant that were
that basically said that youone letter my captain wrote that

(07:56):
I was just trying to out musclethe, the dealers, on on my beat
and arrest as many people as Icould that were doing crimes.
And with me being arrested andconvicted, he put his papers in

(08:17):
and he retired Because he saidin silent I can't stay in silent
purgatory without going to batfor this officer because he was
just trying to do the rightthing and he should have never
been convicted of a crime.
I should still be a cop.
The sergeant I keep calling hima lieutenant sergeant.

(08:38):
He went further by sayingOfficer Thrawn, I don't want to
sound like I'm tooting my ownhorn by saying Officer Thrawn, I
don't want to sound like I'mtooting my own horn was the
greatest collar cop I have everencountered.
And the judge was biased.
He hated all.
He wrote this in the letter.
He hated all law enforcementand he convicted an innocent man

(08:58):
.
The judge went ballistic,ballistic.
He sentenced me to one and ahalf to four years in prison.
I did about two years before Igot paroled.
But the captain and lieutenant,when they got back to the
commands that day, they weresuspended without pay Without

(09:21):
pay for going to bat for mebecause he made a phone call and
said I want their gun andshield.
Either suspend them or I'mgoing to go after them, or
whatever he said.
I can't say what hesaid.
I went to Rikers for like threeweeks, which was a nightmare.
I got bailed out for an appeala nightmare.

(09:51):
I got bailed out for an appealand my original bond was
$100,000, which was ridiculous.
At that time.
It was another $100,000.
So my family had to put up weput up their houses and put up
another 10,000 to get meout.
I called my lawyer and said youknow I'm appealing this, let's
do it.
And he said I don't thinkyou're going to be able to.
I had paid him $25,000 to do mycase and as far as I'm

(10:15):
concerned he did a great jobbecause he got me off of the
robbery.
I'd still be in jail, probablyNow.
Maybe I would have been out now.
And he was honest with me.
He said I don't do appeals, I'mnot going to win it if I do it.
I saidokay.
So I made a few phone calls andI found that I found through a

(10:38):
relative who was running to be ajudge himself.
He found a lawyer for me thatwas an appeal a lawyer and this
guy was very confident.
His name was I can onlyremember his last name, but his
first name was Ben.
He was confident that he wasgoing to win.
And when the case was brought,when the case was going the

(11:05):
night before, he called me.
He said OK, listen, I'm goingto present it to the judges the
six judges and I'll let you knowwhat's going on.
So I asked him.
I said well, can I be there?
He said well, no, it's aninformal.
It's an informal hearing.
So I'm being guided by whatthis guy's saying.

(11:25):
I kind of wanted to be therebecause I wanted to face the
judges, but he was dead setagainst it.
He said no, I have a very goodreport with these judges, don't
worry about it.
I'll call you tomorrow, let youknow what happened.

Speaker 1 (11:42):
What was his fear in you being present?
Did he explain that?

Speaker 2 (11:49):
I don't know and he never did say it.
And I'll explain to you whathappened after he called me,
because that was a greatquestion and I never really
thought about it the way youjust thought about it, because
I'm still.
I'm going to be honest, I'mstill enraged over this.
This is never going to peopletell me to let it go.

(12:09):
I'm never going to let it go.
No, I'm never going to let itgo because I'm going to be
honest, I know I would have beena first grade detective.
I know I would have been atleast the least a second grade.
So he I'm waiting for his phonecall.
It it's not coming.
It's not coming.
It finally comes like nineo'clock at night.
First thing out of his mouth islike are you sitting down?

(12:32):
That's not a good sign.
Right there, I'm like I'drather stand.
What's going on?
He goes okay, I know we havefour judges that are going to
rule for you, but there are twojudges.
One judge is up on the fence.
He doesn't.
I don't know how he's going torule, but there's one judge he's

(12:55):
a new judge.
I've never seen him before.
He's going to rule against you.
I do not know why I asked thisquestion, but I did so, ben.
What is the judges need?
Because I remember that therewas my original-.
Can I interrupt for a second?

Speaker 1 (13:12):
Did this require a unanimous of all judges for the
appeal or a?

Speaker 2 (13:18):
majority.
No, unanimous, had to be six.
All, wow, okay, no, unanimous,had to be six, oh, okay.
So I knew one of the judgesthat did my hearings was going
to the appellant division.
So I said what's the judge'sname?
Ben, it's my fucking judge.
Judge andreas, I go.

(13:42):
Can you repeat that name again?
He says yeah, judge Andreas.
I said Ben, did you even readthe paperwork that I gave you
for the Huntley hearing, theWade hearing and the Mapp
hearing?
He presided over those hearingsand then he recused himself
because he was becoming anappellant judge and he didn't
want to deal with it because theDirty 30 happened and he just

(14:03):
gave it to another judge.
He never put it in the wheel.
He goes.
Well, okay, that's a problem.
I said a problem.
I said he can't rule againsthimself, otherwise they're open
for a lawsuit.
I said he has to recuse himselfnow and we got to redo this.
He goes.
If you do that, there's only 12other judges on the appellate

(14:25):
division.
They're all going to bepoisoned because he's going to
go back and tell them ruleagainst this guy.
Once you get the case, rethinkabout what you want to do.
It's the weekend.
I'll make sure they don't do adecision until Monday.
I'm like Ben, he's not going torule in my favor.

(14:46):
Well, I'm dead set againstasking him to recuse himself.
He wanted to give himself a badname, because if you ask a
judge to recuse himself anytime,you're going to face that judge
.
You're never going to get afavorable decision when you're
the lawyer, said Judge, you'renever going to get a favorable

(15:06):
decision when you're the lawyer.
So I listened to what he said.
On Monday he said listen,you're lost.
You have to surrender on April1st.
So that's great, Thank you.
So I surrendered April 1st.
My ex-wife at the time was justjust got pregnant with our

(15:29):
third child and the first nightI went back to Rikers and I was
only on Rikers for about a month.
That that was just a messed upsituation, but I really didn't
have a problem because I was ina cell by myself.

(15:50):
But they did move me to, didthey?

Speaker 1 (15:55):
put you in your cell by yourself because you were
prior law enforcement.
Is that the?

Speaker 2 (16:01):
reason?
Yeah, I was put in place.
I was placed in PC but I wasalso in a dorm with PC guys.
And what people don't realizeis PC is no longer and even when
I was in 30 years ago it's notPC, it's not protective custody,

(16:21):
that's just a name.
If somebody wants to get to youfrom general population they
know you're on PC they're goingto get thrown into PC to get you
to get to you or have somebodydo a crime, or I call it, do a

(16:42):
hit inside the yard or get intoa fight to get thrown in to PC
to get to that person Not meparticular, but to that person.
So that bullshit withprotective custody, that's a
bunch of bullshit.
There is no protective custodyunless you're in the den, which

(17:03):
is 23 hours.
You're in and you're allowedmaybe a half hour in a little
cage.

Speaker 1 (17:12):
That's for exercise, right, Exercise yes.

Speaker 2 (17:18):
Yes, you're like a fucking caged animal.
You know.
I was like okay, first of allyou got to do something wrong to
be thrown into there.
So I went to Rikers.
30 days later they sent me to aplace called downstate.
That's like a.
You're in transit where they'redeciding where to put you in to

(17:39):
your regular place.
Downstate was upstate, new York.
There I I started.
I just started honing my bodyinto a machine.
I was doing a thousand pushupsevery day, 300 dips and 300
pull-ups every day and about athousand ab movements.

(17:59):
I made my body into a piece ofsteel.
But my mind was fucked up.
For close to a year not a year,I'd say about six months I
thought about killing myselfevery day.
It was either I was going to doit myself, it was.

(18:23):
First of all, it was the shamethat I felt that I put on my
mother and my family.
Even though I didn't do it, Istill had to live with that
shame that, yeah, my son or mybrother or my cousin or my
father is a convicted felon, andthat's a fucked up thing to

(18:46):
have to live with when you're alaw enforcement officer and the
kind of one the one I was.
I was a crime fighter.
There aren't many crimefighters that left in the United
States and I was one of them,and I'm not saying that to be
conceited.
I could put a few people inthat category, and those are the

(19:09):
people that I write about.
One of them is going to be aguest on your show.
It's Ralph Friedman.
He was a fucking crime fighter.
We're a breed apart.
You were a crime fighter.
It's a title that I'm proud of,that I held.

(19:29):
So I'm thinking about that andI'm thinking about okay, when am
I going to get shanked?
Listen, at that point Iprobably would have been able to
hold off three guys.
I was a very good fighter.

(19:51):
I was a brown belt in Aikido.
I was a good street fighter andI was strong then.
But any more than that you'renot going to win.
You're going to get fuckingkilled or hurt.
Bad, these guys don't play byrules.
They're going to cut you up.
I mean, I saw so many peopleget I call them joker faces,
where they get cut from theirlip to their ear.
I saw it all the time in prison, even in PC.

(20:22):
The criminal, the convicts.
They're geniuses when it comesto making weapons.
They can make a cigarette buttinto one of the sharpest blades
you can imagine.
They melt it into a crystal andthen sharpen it on the ground
and put it between their fingersand it becomes a razor blade.

(20:44):
And they melt them together andit becomes a razor blade.
It will cut your face open in ablade.
They melt them together and itbecomes a razor blade.
It will cut your face open in aheartbeat.
They sharpen toothbrushes downto spikes.
So about six months I just saidI want to die.
I thought about wrapping atowel, towel, a sheet around my

(21:07):
neck and hanging myself, but Icouldn't do it to my mother for
one reason my father killedhimself when I was 11 months old
and there would be no way thatI could allow my mother to go
through that again, and I didn'twant to leave my kids without a
father like my father did.
So I wasn't going to do that.

(21:28):
That's the only reason you'respeaking to me today, otherwise
I would have.
After six months, that feelingwent away.
I just got into a groove,everything.
I went to my regular prison,which was Oneida.
It was literally nine hoursaway from my, my ex, my kids, so

(21:53):
they couldn't come and visit me, and my mother made the ride
every two weeks fromPennsylvania.
She was able to be up to cutthat ride down to about a three,
three or four hour ride.
So that's what I had to lookforward to Every two weeks.
I knew my mother was coming tovisit me.
She took care of me withcommissary and she put money

(22:13):
into my commissary, but shealways brought me literally like
four bags of food and I becamea heavy smoker back then.
You got three things to do inprison Smoke, train and watch TV
and do whatever work theyassign you.
That's four things, I know, butthat's all you got to do.

(22:37):
I mean.
And when I went into the dayroom I would always sit at the
corner of the table for onereason and I'd have my hand like
this.
So if I got cut, I got cut on myhand and guys would
occasionally say you know you'rea cop, fuck you, you're a cop,

(22:59):
we don't trust you.
And I'd have to come back andsay don't trust you.
And I'd have to come back andsay no, I'm one of you.
Now I'm not a cop in here, butinside I kept my.
I knew I was a cop, but Ibecame one of them.
If you don't become one of them.
You're not going to live.

(23:19):
That's for anybody else.
I had to double that because Iwas a cop.
So the deck was stacked againstme 100 times worse than any
normal prison.
Because what's the number onething you do?
A cop in prison?
You become a fucking king inthere and you can write your own

(23:41):
ticket.
You're going to rule whateverfloor you live on.
So it's the truth.
I was there, it's the truth.
So I pretty much just trained.
I weight trained when I went tothe yard.
I read a lot.

(24:03):
I was lucky enough my cellmatewas another cop and he was
really, really smart.
He was actually writing his ownappeal.
So we would talk at night andjust talk about.
Sometimes we talk about warstories and on Sunday night it

(24:23):
was a cool night because afterthe at the rec or the yard be
about 11 o'clock at night, weturn the radio on and we would
listen to the old time show theShadow, and it was just and they
had to play.
They played it for like twohours and it was.
That was the best time inprison for me to listen to that

(24:45):
show with him, because we werelike nobody knows but the shadow
.
You know, this is something wedid and that passed each week.
We had to look forward to thatmy mother and his girlfriend or
his fiance at the time.
They came the same day, so theywould meet at a halfway point

(25:06):
and they would split.
Who would buy cigarettes for usevery two weeks?
My mother would, and then Mac'sfamily would buy them for the
other two weeks, so we had aconstant supply.
We had about I don't know,maybe four cartons for every two
weeks, and people you know.

(25:26):
You know we used them to barterand to smoke.

Speaker 1 (25:29):
I was a heavy smoker back then and Would you explain
what you meant to barter for ouraudience that doesn't
understand how the cigarettesand commissary stuff's used
cigarettes and commissary stuffsused.

Speaker 2 (25:44):
Okay, so it's.
It's basically, if somebody, ifI needed something or they
needed something, I'd say, okay,that's going to be a pack of
cigarettes.
So if I say I wanted, if I, ifwe ran out of pasta or something
, so you got any pasta left,he's they would say, yeah, we
got two boxes, so I'd give you apack of cigarettes Instantly.

(26:08):
Okay, no problem.
And I actually had a guy.
I gave him I think I can'tremember the number, but I gave
him a lot of packs.
He drew.
He was an artist and he drew aportrait of my son when he was
born, beautiful picture.
And when he handed it to me, hewas this white guy with long

(26:35):
hair, short, my assistant beard,and I got a little
uncomfortable.
He was like I want to show yousomething.
I'm like okay, now, rememberthat the rec room is 80% black

(26:55):
and Hispanic and 20% white.
You're outnumbered by everybody.
I was outnumbered.
He says let me show yousomething.
I said, okay, go ahead.
Takes off his shirt and he hasone of those things the flag
with the snake on it Live, freeor die.

Speaker 1 (27:15):
Yeah, don't tread on me.
Don't tread on me.
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (27:22):
He's like I'm a white supremacist.
He's like excuse my languageaudience.
He's like fuck those niggas.
I said yo man, I'm gettingclose to going home.
Keep cool with that, please.
And he proceeded to tell mewhat got him in.
He had worked his way down froma max to a medium.

(27:49):
He was in for like 25 years.
And he told me how he lynched ablack guy with this group that
he was with and he dragged theguy with his truck and killed
the guy.
But he was proud of it and Iwas just like and the problem
was he was talking loud enoughwhere they heard and I'm like

(28:12):
listen, thanks for the picture.
We got to stay away from eachother and he wasn't going to
mess with me because I was twicehis size.
I would have crushed him.
And I went over to them andsaid listen, I don't condone
that shit and you know I don't.
And they said, no, you're.
They said we know you're cool,but he had a problem after that.

(28:37):
He had a big problem becausethey were all looking, they were
going to do something to him.
I just didn't want to be aroundhim.
So my I, what I was doing was Ikind of lied my way into one of
the groups where I wanted tojust want to be out of my cell

(29:01):
and I said I was an alcoholic,I'm not a big drinker, I just
wanted to go to that group to beout of the cell.
My cellmate was in it, I was agambler.
So I was like, all right, I'llsay I'm an alcoholic, I'm a
gambler, big deal, same thing.
So I'm sitting at the meetingand the counselor was a pretty

(29:29):
woman, miss Gomez.
I kept seeing her stare at me.
So I'm like Matt, and we wentback to our.
I sell it.
I feel like the third meeting.
I'm like, do you see herchecking me out?
He's like you're fucking out ofyour mind.
You're just, you're justfucking.
I'm like I'm telling you,telling you, man, something's up

(29:51):
with her.
The next meeting she sits nextto me.
She's married to a correctionofficer.
That works.
Wow, yeah, big problem.
She crossed her legs to me andher foot was behind my leg and
she's going like this with herfoot.
I'm like what the fuck?

(30:13):
And I started getting attractedto her too.
So we talked and became goodfriends, but nothing ever
happened.
So I something later wouldhappen, I'll tell you.
So I go to my tonight before myparole hearing.

(30:37):
Still haven't gotten into anyfights, nothing making sure I'm
staying clean.
I was good friends with thesergeant that was the sergeant
on the floor.
Pretty good friends with thesergeant that was the sergeant
on the floor.
Pretty good friends with mostof the officers I worked in the
Bing.
I worked on that floor and thatwas one of my jobs.

(30:57):
I had three jobs and there werethree of them.
They were pretty racist andthey were pretty bad to the
prisoners.
You know these guys are lockedin 23 hours a day.
They were fucked up to them.
They did some fucked up thingsto them.
So I'm waiting to do my parolehearing.

(31:25):
So now all the convicts arecoming up with their suggestions
on how to get paroled.
Like, all right, you know, yougot to say you did it, you got
to admit that you did it and I'mlike I can't do that Like I
didn't do it, I did my job thatnight.

(31:46):
They're like if you don'tfucking admit it, you're not
going home.
So I actually saw a priest fourhours before and I said Father,
I can't admit that I did acrime when I didn't do a crime.
He said I can only pray for you.
I cannot give you any advice.

(32:06):
I said I appreciate that you Icannot give you any advice.
I said I appreciate that and Igot called into the hearing my
parole board.
There was a woman that was thehead of the board and one

(32:26):
gentleman on the left and onegentleman on the right and she
opened my file and she saidwe've read your file and you've
been an exemplary prisoner.
The officers have nothing butgood things to say about you.
Why are you here?
I'm like, okay, this is a trapquestion.

(32:49):
How the fuck do I answer it?
So I said I got convicted offor doing my job that night.
I broke it, which I reallydidn't, but I had to say
something, said I broke protocolwith the guidelines of the

(33:11):
patrol guide.
I never said I broke the law.
I said I probably should havebeen disciplined by my job.
But they went further with it.
I know you guys are familiarwith the 30-30, and they said
yes.
And I said I know you guys arefamiliar with the 3030.

(33:32):
And they said yes.
And then she said didn't ask meanything else.
She said do you have with aconcern to my case?
She said do you have a place togo when you leave?
I said yes.
Do you have employment lined up?
I said yes.
She said I have no furtherquestions.
The guy on the left said I haveno further questions.

(33:52):
And the guy on the left heasked me something like do you
feel yourself rehabbed, reformed?
I said yes.
So that's it.
You're free to go.
Good luck to you.
That was it.
So the rule of thumb when yougo to your parole board is when

(34:14):
the letter gets slipped underthe door and you pick it up and
you put it in your hand and youdrop it to the floor.
If it drops to the floorquickly and it's heavy, you're
not going home.
If it floats like a feather,you're going home.
So I picked it up and I saidMatt, you drop it.

(34:34):
He said just drop it, man, I'mstanding right next to you.
So it floated.
I said can you open it up?
Because I didn't want to openit.
I was still so fucking nervous.
He said you're going home inlike six weeks and he was sad
because now he had no, he wasgoing to be bunked with a

(34:58):
convict that he had nothing incommon with.
Five weeks went fast.
The last week I was in prisonwas a fucking nightmare, total
nightmare.
It was in prison was a fuckingnightmare, total nightmare.
It was in October.
It snowed.
I was very active with the yard, I was in good shape and I got.

(35:22):
It was maybe like 20 degreesout because you're upstate, it's
cold and there's probably likethis much snow on the ground.
And they're like we want to playa tackle football game.
I'm like all right, I know Ican hang with you guys, I don't
give a fuck, I play tacklefootball.
So we're playing and theofficers are betting on what
team's going to win and they'rewatching we're playing for a

(35:46):
good 30 minutes.
People are getting banged up.
It was like that movie thatSylvester Stallone was in when
he went to jail.
And they played the footballgame they got.
I mean, guys were gettingbloodied.
It was a rough game becausewe're playing on cement.
So officer says, okay, lastplay.

(36:07):
So Mac, my, my cellmate, he'squarterback and he's like pete,
I'm gonna hand you the ballscore.
I'm like, okay, just block youguys, block.
For me.
It was this big guy.
His name was moose, big blackguy guy was the size of a
fucking house.
I run right into him and hefucking gut punched me, lift me

(36:34):
off the air.
I'm going down to the ground.
I'm like what the fuck was thatman?
It's like that's how we do itin Buffalo copper and I was
friends with this guy the wholetime.
I'm like I'm not a fucking cop,I'm a convict, and that bothered
me to say.
I will tell you that right now.
That bothered me To this day.

(36:56):
It bothered me.
I'm a convict, like you are.
It's like you're a cop.
I'm heartened.
I'm like, fuck thatmotherfucker broke my rib, so we
get back to the cell.
I'm like fuck that motherfuckerbroke my rib, so we get back to
the cell.
I'm like Mac, I think I broke myrib.
I think Moose broke my rib.
I said I feel something wet,maybe it's sweat.

(37:21):
Guy fucking stabbed me with ashank, went right through my
coat, I just didn't know.
So I have a hole in the centerof my stomach.
It's probably about an inchdeep, Like I can't go to the

(37:41):
fucking infirmary, they'll holdme back.
Now you go to the infirmarywhen you're a week away.
You ain't going home foranother six months because they
don't want a complaint.
You can go home and say, yeah,the correctional officers did it
to me.
So I'm like Mac, I cannot go tothe infirmary and I am in pain.

(38:01):
So we got to seal this upbecause we got to stop fucking
bleeding.
We had to stop fucking bleeding.
Now one of the officers that Ibecame good friends with down in

(38:22):
the lower floor, which is thebank Officer Nobles, he liked me
so much that he gave me a metalspoon, which he wasn't supposed
to, just to eat with.
And I said, mac, you got tofucking heat the spoon up.
We got to cauterize it.
I gotta stop the bleeding.
He's like I can't do that.
I'm like I have no other way.
I can't tell them I need afucking band-aid.
This thing is bleeding tooheavy.
I said just heat the fuckingspoon up.

(38:45):
I kept my back to the doorbecause the door had, like this
skinny window that they couldsee in.
So he put a book in my mouth, apaperback.
He eats up the spoon and, oh youmotherfucker, we just heard
sizzling of the blood and itdidn't fully cauterize it, it
was like half.
I'm like it's heating up again.

(39:07):
He's like I can't do it, man, Ican't Just get it up again.
He's like I can't do it, man, Ican't Just get it over with.
Second time he put it in, heatsit up.
He caught a rise.
I like fucking just went to mybed and I'm like just tell him
I'm sleeping, man, I just wantto go to sleep.
Next morning I got up, scabbedup, good, but I was hurting.

(39:29):
I didn't know.
I knew I didn't have likeinternal anything, like he
didn't puncture any major organs, but it was a nice size wound.
So like I go through, like forthe next few days.
I'm in a little pain, but notbad.
I even get back into the yardand start training.

(39:51):
Now I'm three, four days late,maybe three or four days away,
and I'm lifting, I'm doing flieswith this guy, this big guy
named Ruiz.
That was like six, three and Ihad like 55 pounders or 60
pounders and I would spring upafter the set and place them on

(40:13):
my knees and put them to thesides.
One of the dumbbells goesforward and lands on my fucking
toe with a steel.
It was a steel toe, but just infront it was the boots that
they gave you and it breaks myfucking big toe.

(40:34):
I go to scream.
He puts his hands he watchedthe whole thing.
He puts his hands against mymouth and said don't say a word
if they see that you got hurt,you ain't going home.
I'm like broke my toe.
He's like shut the fuck up andtake the pain.
They tell us okay, end of theyard, let's go clean it up.

(40:55):
He's like you gotta walk normal.
So I'm like I can't.
My fucking foot is broken.
He's like walk on the cornerlike the side of your foot and
make sure you're not putting thepressure on your toe and walk
normal.
So I proceed to do that and gointo my cell.

(41:18):
I'm like Mac, I think I brokemy foot.
Can you take a look at it?
He's like take your boot off.
I took the boot off.
My toe swells up to like afucking grapefruit.
He's like you broke yourfucking toe bad.
I'm like he's like we got toput a new sock on.
I got to get your boot back on.

(41:39):
You're going to have to sleepwith your boot on because if we
let it sit.
It's just going to get worse.
So I slept with my boot on forthe rest of the time.
Weekend comes.
This all happened in one week inthe West.
I knew I'm down in the stillkind of hobbling but not showing

(42:05):
it and the bank would mop it.
And I know the guy in the veryfirst cell.
He just got thrown in there.
I used to see the guy, becamefriends with the guy during
visitation and his family.
He was in for a DWI.
He was going home soon.
He was at a visitation with hiswife and kids.

(42:27):
One of the convicts one of theguys said.
One of the inmates said Ishouldn't call them convicts.
One of the inmates saidsomething to his wife derogatory
, sexual.
So he got up to defend her,gets into a fight, gets thrown
into the bin.
Now he was a month away fromgoing on too.

(42:49):
So I kept talking to him, youknow, saying hello to him.
Hour four was right above the23-hour lockdown and it was like

(43:10):
3 o'clock in the morning.
My cell was right above his.
I hear these CEOs that I knewthat I didn't like.
They're tuning somebody up.
Bad, it's the guy.
And he's screaming I didn't donothing.
What are you doing?

(43:31):
And I'm yelling shut the fuckup, motherfucker.
You're pounding a living fuckout of him, tony.
And it all goes silent.
I'm like okay, at least theystopped doing it.
Getting ready I'm like okay, atleast they stopped doing it.

(43:53):
I'm getting ready for work.
At 5 o'clock see an ambulancecoroner, me state police.
I said what the fuck is thatfor?
I go down to work.
His cell is taped with acrunching tape.

(44:16):
Do not enter.
The officers, the guys that didit.
They're off now.
Now it's a new shift and thisguy helping him.
I didn't like.
He's like, yeah, it's the sameshame.
What happened to john lastnight?
I'm like what are you talkingabout?
He hung himself and killedhimself.

(44:38):
Like like, really, that sucks.
He was, he was a really niceguy.
Now my fucking heart is beating.

Speaker 1 (44:48):
And he was in for DUI .
Yeah, okay.

Speaker 2 (44:53):
My heart is pounding Because all I want to do is get
the fuck away from these guysnow, because I know what
happened.
So my shift ends, I go up to mycell.
The heating system was in thefloor so you could hear
everything that was going on inother cells and downstairs.

(45:20):
So I'm it's like three o'clockat night.
I'm like Mac, I got to talk toyou.
It's like what.
I'm like?
They fucking killed that guylast night.
They said he hung himself andhe's like he didn't fucking hang
himself and we thought we weretalking low, low enough for us
not to be heard.

(45:43):
Sunday night comes.
I'm going home Tuesday, officerNoble, sunday during the day.
I'm going home Tuesday, officerNoble, sunday during the day.
I should say Officer Noble, whoI was friends with, he's
working.
He calls me into the back roomand he goes like this to me
Don't say anything.
He writes stop talking aboutwhat happened in the cell in 1A,

(46:08):
forget about it, just go home,wrote it out and fucking burned
it.
I nodded to say I understand.
Afternoon comes, sergeant knockson our cell door.
He's like open up the gate to1A on our floor, steps in.

(46:35):
He's like Mac, who do you wantto be with.
When your buddy here Now heused to call me Pete your buddy
over here leaves, he tells himwhere he wants to be.
He goes all right, step out, goto the rec room I need to speak
to your buddy Closes the door,mac, leaves Fucking, starts

(47:01):
poking me in my chest.
He's like let me tell yousomething, motherfucker, you
ain't a detective in here.
You keep talking the way you'retalking.
We'll put you where they'llnever fucking find you.
You didn't hear anything.
You certainly didn't seeanything.
Forget about what you heard.

(47:22):
So I'm like in my mind I'mgoing you dirty, motherfucker,
you're covering for these guys.
They committed murder andyou're covering it up.
In my mind I'm saying itbecause you ain't a cop in here.
You're a fucking convict.
You want to go home.

(47:42):
I said yeah, I want to go homebecause you got 48 hours.
Shut the fuck up and forgetwhat you heard.
I said I don't know.
It's killed me to this day.
I said I don't know what you'retalking about.
He said that's a good boy, openup the gate, let Mac back in.
I never spoke about it Until Iwrote End of Torah and then I

(48:03):
wrote about it.
I carried that shit for fuckingalmost 25 years with me Because
I felt so guilty that Icouldn't get justice for this
guy.
I know it's not a politicalshow, but they fucking killed
that guy man.
They got away with murder andit's not right.

(48:25):
I can't do nothing, that's thejustice system.
And I went home.
But that last week it's notright.
I can't do nothing, that's thejustice system.
And I went home.
But that last week was theworst week that I ever had.
I actually met when my motherand brother and sister picked me
up.
They took me to a diner and Imet the counselor.

(48:49):
She came to our breakfast andshe's like well, you know how I
feel about you.
I said you know how I feel, Ireally liked her.
So I said it's a problem.
I mean, I don't want to get youin trouble.
She's like well, maybe we canmeet in a few months when things
die down.

(49:10):
And I met with her like threetimes upstate, not knowing I was
violating my parole because Iwas supposed to stay in my
county and we wrote each otherletters.
She didn't hide one of herletters, good enough.
So the last time that I saw hershe was all fucking bruised up

(49:35):
and I knew that she had come toone of our meetings with a
broken arm and she said that shefell.
So when I see her, I'm likewhat happened to you?
She's like oh, I fell again.
I said you're lying to me.
Your fucking husband beat thefuck out of you.
She's like Pete, he found oneof the letters and these letters

(50:00):
were very dirty.
I'm like fuck.
She said he's going to come foryou.
I'm like fuck.
She said he's going to come foryou.
I'm like okay, no problem, Iguess we can't see each other
again.
I immediately go to my paroleofficer, who I was great friends

(50:23):
with.
He even tried to get me on,fight upon, but he couldn't do
it.
He knew I was screwed.
He said listen, I know you gotyou got fucked.
I tell him what happened.
He tells me okay, if he showsup at your doorstep, don't fight
him outside because he can lockyou up.

(50:43):
Drag him in the house and saythat he was breaking in to your
house and you were just guardingyour house.
I go okay, he got.
Was it really cool?
He calls me up like three dayslater.
He goes listen, you got to comein the uh, the correction
officers are coming here tocorrect.
They're going to question you.

(51:04):
The guy actually called myhouse and he said motherfucker,
I'm coming after you and when Iget you they're going to bring
you back here and you ain'tgoing to be safe.
Fuck, that's not good.
So I called a few friends and Ireported him for abusing I knew

(51:29):
a few state police and toldthem what happened to her and
asked them could you check somehospital records, because she
had gone to the hospital a fewtimes?
And sure enough, it was listed.
They said okay, no problem, wegot your back.
If anything happens, we knowwhat to do with this guy.

(51:51):
So my parole officer says allright, you got to come in here.
You're going to have to answerquestions.
So there were three COs thereand they're like so you know you
violated your parole.
I'm like what are you talkingabout?
And I really didn't realize it.

(52:12):
So, like you left the county.
I'm like I thought it was Ican't leave the state.
So, like you didn't tell yourparole officer that you were
going upstate to fuck somebody,like I had no idea I had to,
which I really didn't, I thoughtit was I couldn't leave the
state Because I always told themwhen I was going to my mother's

(52:34):
at Pennsylvania.
He's like the guy's like, well,you know we're going to violate
you for that.
You're going back to Oneida andyou know that the woman that
you were fucking excuse me is acorrection officer's wife.
She just got fired and we'regoing to put you in general

(52:58):
power.
On his floor I'm like, okay,this is not good.
So I said, okay, he said youcan do that, but before you do
that, just know that he's goingto be arrested for domestic
abuse.
So I have at my house severalreports which I didn't have it.

(53:18):
I just tried to call that bluffSeveral reports that his wife,
who you just fired, was beatenby him and forced to say that
she fell down the stairs.
There's like six say that shefell down the stairs.
There's like six reports thatshe fell down the stairs.
She's either the most clumsiestwoman in the world or a drunk,
and she's neither.
Guy goes all right, time out,time out.

(53:42):
So they tell my parole officer,bring him outside.
They must have called the guy,said listen, you really want to
pursue this because you're goingto have a fucking problem if we
don't.
We're not even going to make itback with this guy without you

(54:04):
being in cuffs, because theyknew that he was done.
They came in, said okay, sothis is the deal, you're never
to see her again, don't go outof the county, continue your
parole.
And they pointed at my paroleofficer.
He said but you're not hisparole officer anymore.

(54:25):
And they gave me a new paroleofficer who was kind of strict.
But she even realized that Iwas screwed and I've had a
problem.
I made my parole, I finished myparole and the problem I was
that I had was I could never getwork because I was a convicted

(54:45):
felon, even though it was anonviolent e-felony.
They looked at it as I was adirty cop and I had plenty of
investigators that wanted tohire me and put me under their
umbrella and they just didn't doit.
I ended up getting a job a fewyears later with a private

(55:10):
investigator that had a securityfirm.
I didn't need a license at thattime for security, or it was
way back in the 90s for doing PIwork.
I worked under their umbrella.
I coached with them in baseballour kids and I worked with them
for 10 years.
I became their leadinvestigator and they sold the

(55:35):
business and I started writingso let me go back because you've
covered a lot.

Speaker 1 (55:51):
Were you so do you think that?
So let me go back becauseyou've covered a lot.
So do you think that thisindividual was recruiting you
for the?

Speaker 2 (56:02):
white supremacist organization and he was a member
of.
By showing you this?
That's a really good question.
I never thought about it.
I don't think he was.
I think he was.
Just he had come from a max andhe had no fear and he hated
black people.
He just hated them and he hateda lot of people.

(56:28):
He hated whites that weren'tpure white, as they call it.
He hit Spanish people and Idon't think he was recruiting me
.
I think he was just kind ofsaying you may think I'm a small
guy, but I got backing in here,so maybe he's saying, if you

(56:54):
need it, like I didn't need it.
And it's funny because when Iwas in, I didn't really cover my
Riker Island when I was in thedorm.
I was in the dorm in the verybeginning before I got let out
on appeal.
The night I went in, they putme in a cell.

(57:19):
This was the judge, I have nodoubt about it.
Correctional officer comes tomy cell and says listen, I'm
moving'm moving you.
I'm like where are you moving?
Where are you moving?
Now?
This is my first night.
I'm I'm freaking.
It's like I'm moving you to adorm a dorm.

(57:43):
You're gonna get me killed.
And there's no.
The only bars are to let thepeople out.
There's nobody separate,there's no bars separating
anybody.
So are to let the people out.
There's nobody separate,there's no bars separating
anybody.
So what are you trying to do?
Get me killed.
He goes.
That's the orders I got, you go.
Okay, this isn't going to begood.
So I get up to the floor.

(58:07):
There's an officer sitting at adesk and the officer that's
bringing me up.
Like I said, there's barsseparating the hallway and the
room, the dorm.
Now I'm on the first front pageof the news where it said judge
my picture and me shaking adetective's hand.

(58:30):
Some photographer took apicture of it and it says judge
blast police brass for backingcop thief.
That was the headline in theDaily News.

Speaker 1 (58:46):
This is New York Daily News You're talking about
In the post.

Speaker 2 (58:50):
Okay, no less.
I'm on the fucking front page.
It's just like are you fuckingkidding me?
It's crazy.
There's 14 guys at the fuckinggate, black and Hispanic, and
the guy that's in the front isholding up the paper Black and
Hispanic, and the guy that's inthe front is holding up the

(59:12):
paper where it's me.
So one of the officers said gotnew meat coming and it's a
fucking cop.
So I'm like you can't fuckingput me in there.
Look at this shit, I'm notgoing to make it a fucking
second in there.
Look at this shit, I'm notgoing to make it a fucking
second in there.

(59:32):
Officer's like you got to go in.
I'm like fuck you, I'm notgoing in.
And now when I get reallypissed off, my eyes well up,
they tear up.
I'm not crying, it's anger.
So I'm like I'm not going in,motherfucker.
And I fucking shove thecorrection officer, fucking
throw him right on his ass.

(59:53):
He gets up.
He's so cool about it.
He's like listen, if you showhim, you're afraid they're going
to kill you.
I'm like charge me for assault,I'm going to hit you again.
He's like you're not going tohit me.
I said, fucking, recharge me.
And I'm not thinking straightat that point.

(01:00:14):
I just don't want to go inthere.
I said, fuck it.
I went right to the front.
I said listen, I didn't put anyof you motherfuckers in here,
so whatever's going to happen isgoing to happen.
I don't know why I said that.
I said but I guarantee you, I'mgoing to take, you're going to
kill me in there, but I'm goingto take three of you with me.

(01:00:36):
I don't know what came over meto say that.
Probably God, like I know it'snot a religious show, but he
gave me the power to say that atthat point.
So there was this black guy thatwas 6'3" skinny guy named
Country, and a Spanish guy nextto him who was also the

(01:01:00):
president of the Nieders.
They're standing together.
He said open up the gate, openthis up, and if any of you
motherfuckers touch them, you'regoing to deal with us.
They were controlling the house, as they call it.
They had the Spanish guys incontrol and country had the

(01:01:21):
black guys in control.
So they open it up.
I walk in and I go over to thecountry and I'm like listen, man
, I ain't giving you my fuckingsneakers.
That's what I heard.
They steal people's sneakers.
He's like dude, I don't wantyour sneakers.
Man, you're right.

(01:01:43):
You didn't put any of us inhere.
We put ourselves in here.
You were a cop a long time ago.
You didn't put any.
You didn't put any.
He didn't put any of you idiotsin here.
So stop the bullshit.
He's one of us.
I became really good friendswith that guy, good friends with
the nieta guy.
They know I'm going home to goget my appeal the next day.

(01:02:07):
This was like I was in forabout 14 days.
Guy Country's only 19 years old.
I'm 27 or 28 years old at thetime.
He always kept watching me lookat my pictures of my kids.
He said Pete, can I talk to youfor a second?
I said yeah, sure.
And then the guy from the Nia.

(01:02:28):
He said when Country's done, Iwant to speak to you.
Second, I said yeah, sure.
And then the guy from the Nia.
They said when country's done,I want to speak to you.
I'm like okay.
He's like I know you're afamily man.
I don't have a mother or father.
Swear to God.
He said this Do you think youcan adopt me when you get out?
I'm like, country, I'm honoredby that.

(01:02:50):
You want me to do that and Iwould.
But you're 19 years old.
I'm not even 10 years olderthan you.
I said I'll stay good friendswith you and I'll help you any
way I can, but I can't adopt you.
You're 19 years old.
You're a man.
You're 19 years old, you're aman.
I appreciate it Really.

(01:03:10):
Good, good guy.
Here's my number.
We spoke to each other a lotafter I got home.
Now the other guy goes can Italk to you for a second?
I'm like sure he's like listen.
First thing I want to let youknow is there's a new guy coming
in.
Whatever you do, whatever yousee, whatever you hear, don't

(01:03:32):
get involved.
Sit on your bunk and don't doanything.
It's going to be bad.
Come on, man, he's like.
Second thing is he's thepresident of the Nieta.
He has a pipeline through thewhole prison.
They're able to send kites.
Tell us what.

Speaker 1 (01:03:53):
Nieda is for people that don't know.

Speaker 2 (01:03:55):
Nieda is a Spanish gang that they control the
prisons.
But they're very powerful.
Outside of New York City,california, they're all over the
place and they portray thatthey are a criminal enterprise.
But they are.
But in prisons they do controlthe prisons.

(01:04:16):
At that time they did.
They controlled the prisons.
They really did.
They controlled the blacks andthe Spanish.
At that time they were verypowerful.
They all wore rosary beads.
A lot of them had the tattoo ofthe rosary on them and this guy
was the president and he saidlisten, I sent out a kite to the

(01:04:42):
other leaders on the floors andwe took a vote.
We know how cool you are andyou kept quiet.
You didn't ride anybody out.
We want to make you an honorarymember of the need.
I'm like what he's like.

(01:05:02):
Yeah, you could become anhonorary member.
All you got to do is say yes,I'm like I forgot.
I think his is say yes, I'mlike I forgot.
I think his name was Jose.
I'm like Jose, I can't do that.
I came in here alone.
I just want to go home alone.
I'm honored, but you know Ican't be a part of a gang.
It's like.

(01:05:24):
All right, I understand, cool,he goes, but I'm going to let
you know we got your back.
Like, all right, I understand,cool, he goes, but I'm going to
let you know we got your back.
So, right there, I'm going.
Fuck, I'm going to owe peoplefavors.
And I said, am I going to oweyou something?
He goes.
Can you just do me one favorand you'll never be asked of
anything else.
I said what he said.
My daughter broke her eardrumtwo nights ago.

(01:05:46):
She's in the hospital.
Can you send somebody?
He told me what hospital inBrooklyn?
Can you send somebody over justto check on her and maybe bring
her a teddy bears?
I said done.
Called my ex-wife.
She went right over to thehospital, sent and gave her a

(01:06:07):
teddy bears and chocolates.
Told me that she was alright.
I told him and I called her.
I said everything is good.
He said you're good, thank you.
There were several times when Iwas upstate where I had several
of the other guys say Jose sendshis regards, we got you.

(01:06:31):
I never.
I said thank you and I justkept walking that night when
that new guy came in.
He was convicted of raping achild.
So they have this thing calledthe fucking gauntlet and they

(01:06:52):
gave him a choice.
The guy, the other guy.
The guard called out and saidnew me, child abuser, rapist
Said it, said it just like that.
All these guys lined up in frontof their cots and they were

(01:07:14):
fucking putting shit in theirpillowcases.
Whatever they had they wereputting in there Could be cans,
you name it, whatever was metalnot metal to kill you, but heavy
things, books.
They're all standing in frontof their fucking their cots.

(01:07:36):
I'm sitting, I'm not doinganything.
He goes up to the guy.
The guy comes in.
He says you're going to havetwo choices.
Now the guard leaves.
We're either going to bring youin there into the bathroom
we're going to stab you to deathBecause you ain't going to live
in here, or you're going to runthe gauntlet.

(01:07:57):
Now the black guys are part ofthe still Because everybody
hates rapistsists and childrapists.
Forget about it.
Guy picks the gauntlet.
He's running and he's gettinghalted by these guys swinging
the pillows.
He's getting hit in the balls,the groin, the stomach, the head

(01:08:20):
.
He makes it to the end andCountry's waist.
He fucking pounds him, pickshim up, kicks him.
You got to go back down to theother guy now.
You got to run back.
So he ran up one side and thenhad to run up the other side.

(01:08:40):
You guys get crushed.
He makes it to the other guy andfalls and the other guy goes
like this All the other guys.
They follow him.
They go to the bathroom andthey fucking raped him with

(01:09:02):
toothbrushes.
They stuck about 16toothbrushes up his ass and beat
him again and the guards pickedhim up and dragged him out.
The guards let it happen.
That's fucking justice man.
That's prison justice.

(01:09:22):
That's the justice man.
That's prison justice.
That's the way it is.
But I'll tell you right now,listening to that if you've
never heard a male scream inpain or yell is one of the most
disturbing things that you'llever hear, and I heard that that

(01:09:43):
night.
So it was always when I wasgoing home that these crazy
things happened.

Speaker 1 (01:09:50):
Do you think and you've explained when you were
going to be released about thefootball game in the yard being
stabbed and the other injuryguard being stabbed and the
other injury?
Do you think?
The stabbing was intentional,because you were getting out and
it was to send a message whenyou get out.

Speaker 2 (01:10:11):
Yeah, absolutely, Because they knew, first of all,
like I said, I kept my handhere, so they weren't going to
be able to cut me.
And it's called the going awaypresent.
Because you're going home,they're still staying in.
So they're angry.
Because you're going home,they're not.
So you're going home, we'regoing to leave you with a little

(01:10:34):
fucking present to remind youof where you were.
And I didn't want that fuckingcut on my face and I didn't want
that fucking cut on my face.
So the guy thought that thepunch stab whatever the fuck you
want to call it was deep enoughto.
I don't think he wanted to killme.
He wanted me to know you'vebeen here.

(01:11:03):
And they got their pointthrough Pardon the pun.

Speaker 1 (01:11:12):
Yeah, yeah, that's.
Life imitates art.
I guess that's probably thebest way to describe it.
When you got out, you went towork as a PI, but that folded
and you just started to touch onwriting your book, which, if
you haven't read it, end of Tor.
It's about Pete, it's about hiscareer, his prison and his

(01:11:33):
future.
I highly recommend it.
So when you got out, whatprompted you to start writing?
I mean, you know, you obviouslygot my attention because of
your experience in criminaljustice, but how did you come

(01:11:54):
about to writing?
And I'd like you to talk aboutthat, if you could.
And I'd like you to talk aboutthat, if you could, and also
talk about your new book andabout what it's about too.
And I know that it's beennumber one on the Amazon in the
law enforcement category andgreat reviews that I've read.

(01:12:17):
I haven't had a chance to readit.
It's one of your thicker ones.

Speaker 2 (01:12:23):
Yeah, it's a long one , I will read.

Speaker 1 (01:12:23):
I haven't had a chance to read it.
It's one of your thicker ones,so I will read it, but why?

Speaker 2 (01:12:33):
don't you tell us about how you got into the
literary world and your latestbook?
Well, when I was in, I was kindof.
I think I was inspired by Macwho was writing his appeal.
He was so sharp, the guy couldhave been a lawyer.
That's how sharp he was.
And you know we would writenotes, letters to our friends

(01:12:58):
and wives, and I would alwaysgive him my letter before, and
he'd be like you made a millionmistakes, yet you got to become
a better writer, which I didn'twhen I was in prison.
I didn't give a shit.
But then something came to me.
I said you know, mac, I thinkwhen I get out.

(01:13:20):
I'm going to write a book aboutwhat, how I got fucked.
And he was like Pete, you trulygot fucked.
And because I was, I was ableto get all my my minutes to
everything and all of mypaperwork.
And I showed him it and he readit and he said you got screwed.

(01:13:41):
And I said you know what and Ithink I'm going to make the
cover A judge's gavel shatteringmy shield behind a cell.
He said holy shit, that wouldmake a nice cover.
So that was always the coveralways came first to me in my

(01:14:03):
head and with all my books Ialways try to do.
When we did your book, I triedto do your cover first because I
get inspiration from it, and Ididn't write the book right away
.
My kids were young.
I waited for all my kids to beout of school and one of the

(01:14:25):
reasons was I didn't want to putthem through anything.
I didn't want anybody to relivethat shit and I didn't want my
mother to relive it.
Or my family had no idea what Idid in the street, or my family
had no idea what I did in thestreet.
They had no idea how wild I wasin the street and my family

(01:14:47):
really didn't, my kids didn't.
Really my ex-wife did, and myex-wife was always against it
and I said I want my fuckinggold shield.
This is the only way to get itIs to make arrests.
And she wasn't that kind of cop.
She strove a boss and shewasn't that kind of cop.
She strove a boss and she washappy with that.
So after about five years ago,I started writing End of Thor.

(01:15:15):
My brother is a narrator forAudible, so he's done about 150
books.
So I sent him, I wrote thefirst book and the first draft
of the book.
He read it and he's like Petefirst of all, I will never read

(01:15:36):
this book on air for you and youcan't submit this book.
He said do you know any otherword but the F word?
You got to rewrite it and bemore articulate, which I did.
It took me about two years towrite.
So the first book came out.
I started writing it in 2017.
And the first book came out in2019.

(01:16:00):
And the first book came out in2019, and I was lucky enough to
go with it.
A small, traditional publisherBook went number one and I made
a little money on it and COVIDhappened and I had a lot of
friends that said listen, youneed to write a second book

(01:16:24):
about the prison.
You just touched on it.
Cops have to know about whatit's like to be in prison
because that will make themthink twice if they're going to
try to be dirty.
And my argument with them waslisten, that's something I'm not

(01:16:46):
proud of.
It's not.
My proudest point of my lifebeing a cop was I was proud to
write that first book.
They convinced me to do it.
Covid happened and I actuallywrote that book in six months
and that book's called One Under.
It was about me being in prisonand a little bit about my life
after and how.

(01:17:06):
The laughter part, which I'mstill living through, is how
powerful a judge can be.
Nobody realizes how powerful ajudge can be.
They hold an immense amount ofpower and the reason I say that

(01:17:28):
is I about seven years ago no,six years ago after my buddy
went out of business with afterhe sold his business with the
investigation, I said you knowwhat, let me reapply and try to
get an investigation job.

(01:17:48):
And I applied for thecorporation, not the corporation
council, the people that defendpeople that break the laws of
New York.
And I got called back and theysaid listen, we love your resume

(01:18:13):
.
You beat out about 100detectives.
There's three candidates thatwe're going.
We're going to get picked two.
And are you ready for yourinterview?
Now the interview had six peoplein there, three people on each
side, and I got to ask questionsand I answered them pretty good

(01:18:36):
.
The last question kind of threwme for a loop.
They said well, listen, ifyou're on call that one night
and you get called and they tellyou that you have to help or
take pictures or gather evidenceof a child rapist, what are you
going to do?
I wanted to say I want to beatthe fuck out of the guy, but I

(01:19:00):
couldn't.
I wanted to say I want to beatthe fuck out of the guy, but I
couldn't.
I said, well, I'm going to makesure that that guy gets the
best representation that he canand I'll gather as much evidence
for him as I can.
So they were recordingeverything the public defender's

(01:19:20):
office.
So once they put it off, theysaid listen, because four of
them were investigators, two ofthem were the lawyers for them.
They all said listen, we knowwhat you'd want to do to that
guy, but you do have to try tohelp him.
And it was the right answer.
We'll get back to you eithertoday or tomorrow and let you

(01:19:42):
know how you did.
They called me like within twohours and they said you got the
job.
So I'm thinking okay, they musthave done a background check on
me and I passed it.
I said the main office is goingto send you some paperwork.
Sign it, fill it out and signit.
When do you want to start it?

(01:20:02):
They gave me two dates.
I said I'll start in August.
Fill out the paperwork.
Of course, one of the questionsis have you ever been convicted
of crime?
I said yes.
He said it doesn't exclude youExplain what happened.
So I explained it and I wroteabout this guy, judge Andreas,

(01:20:24):
that sat on the appellantdivision.
Little did I know that JudgeAndreas became the head of the
appellant division and he stillis.
He wrote back to them and saiddo not hire this man.
How are you going to put him onthe stand if he's been

(01:20:44):
convicted of falsifying businessrecords.
He's going to get torn apart,which I wouldn't.
I know how to defend myself.
I've been on the stand athousand times.
They said we can't hire you.
They sent me that letter theday before I was supposed to go
to work in a fucking email.
So I'm thinking I bought suits,I bought a new jacket.

(01:21:09):
I'm like all right, I got thejob Great, like 18 hours before.
I'm like are you kidding me?
You do this now.
Why didn't you just tell me amonth ago so that's how powerful
judge is on man.
Judge is just.

Speaker 1 (01:21:28):
Oh yeah, no, I know that I've dealt with the Marshal
Service, with the judiciary,and I can tell you, very
powerful, especially a USDistrict Court judge, which the
majority, you know which they'rethere for life.
Let me jump around because Iwant to ask you about the new

(01:21:52):
book and what prompted you.
By the way, I think your bestbook which I enjoyed other than
mine was Second to None, whereyou really wrote about the New
York City and New York policeofficer detectives and what they
are.

(01:22:12):
That's the best one that I'veread.
Okay, we'll talk about that ona future and I hope to those
some of those guys as guests Ijust thought it was today's
society would enjoy reading sucha book about the history of
detectives.
But let's talk about the, theone you've written now, the, the

(01:22:35):
homicide book on the manual onhow to do it, and what prompted
you to write that?

Speaker 2 (01:22:46):
Well, what prompted me was Tell us about the book,
the name and all that I don'thave it.
Okay, the name of the book iscalled the Godfather of Homicide
and honestly I cannot take allthe credit for writing the book.
I have a co-author that he dida lot of work in it His name.
The book is about VernonGebbeth.
He was a lieutenant commander,he's retired in the NYPD and he

(01:23:13):
is the godfather of homicide.
He is one of the greatestdetectives homicide detectives
that NYPD ever had.
He's written a textbook that'sin its fifth edition called the
Practical Guide of Homicide andhas all cases in it and

(01:23:34):
guidelines of what to do anddetectives and cops and
throughout the nation.
He taught for many years, ofcourse, and he's taught
thousands of detectives on howto solve crimes and homicides.

(01:23:59):
Writing your book.
I was going in between and hisbook ended up being close to.
It was 401 pages but I was ableto cut it down from 500 pages
Because Amazon has someguidelines with books that are
that heavy and that not heavybut that long.

(01:24:19):
They kind of put a book into.
They put it in a kind of theymake it.
They want you to make it into atextbook.
That's not a textbook what Iwrote.
I wrote about the man's career,so he had to cut it down and
it's about his career and someof the cases that he did.
And he brought in Larry Davis,the guy that shot six cops in

(01:24:49):
the Bronx, and that was his lastcase and one of the reasons he
retired, because he went againstthe grain.
He was the kind of lieutenantthat had his men's back.
He's what's called a cop's cop.
He was loyal to his men andwe're hoping you and I are

(01:25:11):
hoping to get him on the showbecause he's a great guest.
He's a great guy.
That book actually did take apiece of my soul out of me
because I had my agent who wasalso my editor.
She was also my promoter.

(01:25:31):
She had just edited the book afew months prior and she called
me and she said we had a Zoommeeting and she said Peteete,
the book is ready, I just wantto reread it and I'm going to
send it to you in the email inthe afternoon she said I just
haven't been feeling too good,I've had some brachitis, but I

(01:25:54):
feel better.
And hi, I'm just logging inearly to see if it's working.
Hello, hi.
And she passed away that dayand I just didn't like.
I said she was my agent and my.

(01:26:16):
She was everything to me whenit came to my career.
She did everything, she handledall of my writing and, uh, that
threw me for a loop.
I had a I couldn't get.
I never got the email of whatshe finished for me, so I had to

(01:26:37):
with Vernon.
We had to edit the bookourselves and rewrite a lot of
it, and then I had to format thebook, which I had never done.
I never formatted a book, so Ihad to teach myself how to do
that.
I got the cover done and itpassed all the regulations

(01:26:59):
through Amazon and it wentnumber one the next day.
The first day it went out,which was good Cause he has a
strong following.
I have a very strong following,so you know the book's doing
well and your book is stillbehind blue eyes, which still on
the top hundred for where weput that book out in December.

(01:27:23):
So it's no, we actually put itout a little earlier than that.
It's seven months straight it'sbeen in the top 100, which is a
huge accomplishment.
I want to shoot to make sure itgets to the year mark where you
are in the top 100 and,hopefully, the top 20.

Speaker 1 (01:27:43):
I got one more question before we sign off for
today.
Out of all your cop writers, orcops that you've written about
and that who bothered you theleast?
You?

Speaker 2 (01:27:59):
You, you, 100%.
You were pretty much inagreement with everything we did
and if I needed help withsomething, you kind of put it
into a context and a text for meand I broke it down to how I
thought it should be written.
And you were great to work withand, like I've written, second

(01:28:26):
to none prompted me to writeabout two of the officers that I
had written about in that bookTim Kennedy and Greg Quinn.
I just thought that theirstories were extraordinary and
their careers were extraordinary.
Tim Kennedy was actually thepartner of one of the guests

(01:28:50):
you're going to have on RalphFriedman.
And then I wrote about you andI have written, and I have
written 16 books.
I've written 16 books.
I'm working on a book now.

(01:29:11):
It's not a true book, it's afiction, but it's based on a lot
of research I've done on a lotof agents ATF agents that
infiltrated motorcycle gangs.
So it's going to be about anundercover that infiltrates a
motorcycle gang, a very violentone, and it's going to have a

(01:29:33):
different twist than most ofthem do, and I'm actually
looking forward to that onebecause I kind of I know what
it's like to be an undercover,so it's easy for me to write the
undercover role.
So I just had to do a lot ofresearch on MC gangs and one
percenters and what they're allabout.

(01:29:55):
I had to do a lot of researchon motorcycles themselves Arlie
Davidson's I have a good friendthat's.
The guy can literally put a biketogether blind.
So he's helping me with that.
And I'm going to write a thirdbook about myself and that book
is going to be called theInformants and it's going to be

(01:30:16):
about several of my severalcases that my that I had really
really really good informants on.
And I'm hoping to do a fourthbook which will involve you,
where we can get my clemency andthe name of that book if I get
it will be called eitherPardoned or Clemency and that

(01:30:39):
will be how we went aboutgetting it and what it's like to
get my name back.
Because that, to me, is themost important thing is, I want
my name back and I want to beable to tell people yeah, I'm
retired, I didn't get fired, youknow what I mean.

Speaker 1 (01:31:00):
You have a tremendous amount of friends in the law
enforcement community, includingmyself, who will support your
clemency 100%, which you've beenthrough, and you know that
fourth book will get published.
Okay, pete.

Speaker 2 (01:31:21):
Thank you, I appreciate it, tom.

Speaker 1 (01:31:23):
Yes, and thank you for coming on today and I look
forward to having you and Jeffdoes too periodically coming on
on important shows that we haveon the system.
Because you've lived the entireend of it and you're candid
with your opinions.
I would say there's no futurein politics for you, but at the

(01:31:50):
same time, honesty and integrityis important.
So again, thank you very much.

Speaker 2 (01:31:59):
I believe that very much.
I believe that it's being onboth sides of the fence.

Speaker 1 (01:32:10):
I'm able to know how everybody like law enforcement
and the inmates feel yeah, and Ithink I think.
Before we close, I think onemore thing's important.
Pete has lost over 72 pounds bywalking his dog.
Okay, and he walks his dog 10miles a day.
I couldn't imagine.
Well, I'm sure the dog looksforward to it for the first two

(01:32:33):
or three miles but wants you tostop at a supermarket or a stop
and shop to get him a littlesnack along the way.

Speaker 2 (01:32:41):
But again, I get him water on the halfway mark.

Speaker 1 (01:32:44):
We got it down to a system?
Yeah, we don't.

Speaker 2 (01:32:48):
All right, and I even spoke to you when I'm at church
saying hey, I'm at church andI'm wrestling with Leo.

Speaker 1 (01:32:56):
Yes, all right, pete, good night.
Thank you very much.

Speaker 2 (01:32:59):
Thank you so much.
Thank you, Jeff.
Talk to you soon.

Speaker 1 (01:33:02):
Bye.