July 16, 2024 • 59 mins
Ever wondered what it takes to navigate the complex world of law enforcement and organized crime? Join us as we sit down with Herb Rutherford, a highly respected figure in the U.S. Marshal Service, whose career spans decades of impactful service. From his first memorable encounter with Chief Deputy Toby Roche during the notorious Licavoli trial in 1982 to his pivotal role in high-stakes organized crime trials, Herb's stories are not just gripping but also offer profound insights into the challenges and triumphs of being a Marshal.
Herb's journey is not just confined to his law enforcement career; it also encapsulates his early life in Washington, DC, his military service in Korea and Vietnam. Facing challenges head-on, from managing dangerous inmates to thwarting escape plans, Herb's resilience and dedication stand out. Learn about his remarkable career trajectory, including his significant appointments as the United States Marshal for Virginia and his rare distinction of being appointed by four presidents.
We also explore the unique initiatives led by Herb, such as the impactful youth programs and undercover operations aimed at tackling police corruption and mob activity. From the adrenaline-pumping moments of Operation Flagship to the poignant efforts of the Learning and Discipline (LAD) program at Smothers Elementary School, Herb's stories are a testament to his dedication and leadership. Reflect on the times when camaraderie was built over shared meals, touch football games, and the challenging yet rewarding environment of the U.S. Marshal Service. Join us for this inspirational episode that offers not just lessons in law enforcement but also in leadership, resilience, and community impact.
Produced by: Citrustream, LLC
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Welcome everybody to the Justice Then, justice Now
podcast.
My name is Jeff Thomas, I'mhere with Toby Roach and our
guest is on with us right now,herb Rutherford.
How are you doing, herb?
I'm well, thank you.
Thank you so much for being ourfirst guest.
Speaker 2 (00:13):
Yes, well, Toby had been talking about this for
quite a while and I'm honoredthat we are going to do this.
Thank you so much, Awesome.
So where and when did you firstmeet Toby?
I met Toby.
It would have been 19,.
Would have been 85, Toby, Isthat?
Speaker 3 (00:29):
the year.
No, you met me in 82 inCleveland, so that's where we
met the first time 82, right,Okay, 82.
Speaker 2 (00:37):
In Cleveland.
I was there for the Liccavolitrial, James White, yeah.
Well, what happened was I endedup having a chief deputy that,
for better reasons than not, heended up going elsewhere.
And you know, when you'regetting a new chief deputy in,
(00:57):
there's concern as to how areyou going to blend with this guy
.
We didn't have many femalechief devs at the time, but I
was very concerned about whowould be coming in, so Toby came
in.
We sat down in my office forabout I think it was about an
hour and a half two hours justtalking to each other, Just
(01:21):
talking to each other, gettingto know each other.
By the time we finished ourintroductions to each other and
talking to each other, gettingto know each other by the time
we finished our introductions toeach other and talking to each
other at least in my mind I'msaying this is going to work out
great.
Toby is going to be an idealchief deputy.
So that's how we met.
Well, we met in Cleveland atfirst, but this is when I first
(01:43):
met him, coming back into myoffice in Washington DC.
Speaker 1 (01:48):
What were you doing in?
Speaker 2 (01:49):
Cleveland.
I was the chief deputy UnitedStates Marshal in Cleveland.
I ended up having to wear awire in a case up there and a
day or so later my director,william E Hall, called me and
said Herb, we've got to get youout of Cleveland.
(02:10):
So they sent me to Newark, newJersey, as the chief deputy.
Speaker 1 (02:19):
So that's how that went down.
So Newark is that an upgrade orhas?
Speaker 2 (02:24):
that fallen off the cliff.
It was a challenge, but Ienjoyed it.
Speaker 3 (02:34):
You have any Newark stories, toby?
No, no, he had very toughoffices with a lot of trials
with organized crime that hedirected there.
So it was very helpful with meto be the chief deputy in DC
getting experience with some ofthe Iran-Contra trials we had we
had.
You know, dc is the fishbowlfor the Marshal Service that's
the best way to describe it andthey watched to see like if
(02:57):
something goes wrong in USDistrict Court and with the
Court of Appeals.
Speaker 2 (03:03):
Getting back to Toby and I getting together, I guess
when he came into the office, asI said, we sat down and talked
for a couple hours and at theend of that discussion I think
both of us had formed theopinion that this was going to
be an ideal match, an idealsituation.
So Toby moved in shortlythereafter, moved into the area.
(03:29):
I met his wife, aida at thetime and it was just a very
positive experience the wholetime.
The whole time he and I weretogether.
Speaker 1 (03:39):
I have a similar type first meeting with Toby under
some different circumstances, ata cage fight.
Speaker 2 (03:48):
Wasn't at a bar, was he?
Speaker 1 (03:49):
No, shortly thereafter.
I'm sure that's where he doesall his best work.
That's what I've heard anyway.
Speaker 3 (03:56):
Yeah, he has a rum collection behind him.
You can see that in the view,Jeff.
Speaker 1 (04:02):
Herb.
Can I take you all the way back?
Where did you grow up?
What was your childhood like?
Speaker 2 (04:06):
I grew up in Washington DC Pretty tough area
at the time, but I did wellthere and ended up going to well
, grew up in Washington DC, wentinto the military at 19 years
(04:28):
old.
I spent about 22 months inKorea and I was told that I had
orders I was going to be goingto Fort Polk, louisiana.
I went to my superiors andmentioned to them that I really
didn't want to go to Fort Polk.
What were my options?
(04:48):
And they said, well, herb, youcan go to Vietnam.
And I said, well, fine, I'll goto Vietnam.
So I ended up going to Vietnam.
Now, my assignment that I hadin Vietnam was a unique
assignment.
I guess we all remember hearingabout the my Lai Massacre of
1969, I guess it was.
(05:09):
So they ended up.
I ended up flying into Vietnam,met with my boss, who was an
African-American gentleman.
He was a civilian close.
He was driving a civilian sheep.
His name was Oren Blackman andwe sat down and talked for quite
(05:33):
a while and I just realizedthat it was going to be a good
assignment.
Now he was about 20 years olderthan I was, maybe 25 years
older than I was, but we hit itoff well.
Now, he never went to the field.
That was my job.
I was in the field and the jobas an advisor to the Vietnamese
(05:56):
National Speed Force had me inthe field and it was good.
I mean at his age, as I said,he was about 20, 25 years older
than I was it was better.
I was more suited to be in thefield than he was, so he worked
out very well.
Well, I was kind of on the edgea lot as a young man.
I guess my parents and a lot ofpeople at that time were
(06:19):
getting strung out on heroin andthat kind of thing.
I was never going to do that.
When I first came back fromVietnam, many of the young men
that I'd grown up with wereheroin addicts.
I came, and the first day I gotback from Vietnam I saw a guy
(06:43):
that I had been in high schoolwith and he said Herb, do you
want?
to try some of this.
I said, no, I can.
A guy that saw a guy that I hadbeen in high school with and he
said, herb, you want to trysome of this and pulled out some
heroin.
And I said, no, I can't go thatway.
So I mean, he's dead now, justas most of the young men that I
grew up with are dead now.
So I've been blessed.
I've been truly blessed.
What else can I tell you aboutmy early days?
What so?
What branch were you in?
(07:03):
What else can I tell you aboutmy early days?
What branch were you in?
Army?
Actually, I was trained as an MPin Korea, but when I went to
Vietnam, they told me that I wasgoing to be advising a unit of
the Vietnamese National PoliceField Force.
Now, this was following the myLai Massacre of 19, I guess 1969
(07:28):
, 70, in that area.
So that was my job, but I hadto.
I was an advisor with theVietnamese National Police Field
Force.
They said they could never have.
In fact, their words were wecan never have Americans killing
Vietnamese civilians.
So you were going to, they said, told me that I would be
(07:50):
assigned to a Vietnamese unit ofthe National Police Field Force
as an advisor, both to get themequipment and to just get them
the support they needed whenthey were in the field.
As I said, they just alwaysreinforced that we can never
have American soldiers killingVietnamese civilians.
(08:11):
So that was the nature of thejob I had when I was there.
Speaker 1 (08:15):
So when you get out of the Army, how long were you
there?
Did you do?
A couple of years, a coupletours out there.
Speaker 2 (08:21):
I just did a total of three years.
And when I came home I startedapplying for jobs.
I applied for a position withthe Secret Service and I don't
know what happened there.
But they ended up telling methat they couldn't access my
military health records.
(08:42):
And I told them.
I said I don't know where theywould be.
I never saw them.
In Vietnam could have beenblown up, but I never saw them.
So they ended up telling mewell, perhaps you're gonna.
As I said, I applied for a jobwith the Secret Service and they
couldn't find my health records.
So I was kind of undesirable tothem.
So I went and applied for aposition with the United States
(09:04):
Marshal Service and they saidsure, we'd love to have you.
So I went to work for theUnited States Marshal Service
and was actually with them from1971 to to what?
2088, I guess.
Speaker 1 (09:26):
So a long time when you were in the Army.
Were these positions that youthought maybe I could do this
afterwards, or was it just theright place at the right time?
Speaker 2 (09:36):
I thought about that, trying to do it or applying to
do it afterwards, but that endedup not working that way.
I mean, I guess about a yearafter I got there my time was up
, so I could have stayed longerif I wanted to, but I didn't.
I just got out and came homeand started applying for
positions in various lawenforcement agencies.
Speaker 1 (10:00):
So you were straight to the marshals, not like Toby
was a cop and then kind of movedto the marshals.
Speaker 3 (10:06):
He knows this story.
We have a mutual friend namedPaul Desmond, and Herb was in
the special operations group,which is a 99-person unit,
practical unit yeah.
Yeah, they're paramilitary.
And I went into the federalcourthouse looking for jobs
(10:27):
because I was on midnights and Iran into a guy by the name of
Paul Desmond and I came in andhe was the best recruiter I've
ever seen.
He came in, he had me allpumped up.
I was like 22 years old, 23.
And he had me.
So you know that's how I gotstarted.
(10:48):
Pretty much I went in thebasement of the federal building
and that's always, always wherethe marshals are right Herb,
the first floor or the basement.
When you even the courthouse inDC, it's the marshals right on
the first floor before you getto any courtrooms.
Speaker 2 (11:05):
Exactly, exactly.
But, like I said, when Tobyfirst got there, I was elated to
have had him Chief Deputy in anoffice is a very important
position, as you can imagine,and just having somebody that we
immediately knew that we couldwork well together.
So that was a great situationand I guess the period of the
(11:35):
years that we were together itwas great.
He was a great friend and atalented manager and leader, so
it was great.
Speaker 3 (11:45):
We also liked to sing music, you know, because it was
very unique.
Her was 37 years old and I was29.
And I think you know theaverage age of the marshal and
the chief deputy was probably inthe 50s.
So we balanced out at like age32, which today wouldn't happen.
(12:06):
I'm pretty sure they won't havethat happen again not from a
bad experience, but I'm sayingjust the unique time that we
were in in the 80s.
Speaker 1 (12:17):
So I know just from my conversations with Toby a
little bit about what theMarshalls do.
What was your experience likewhen you first joined?
Did you have any expectations?
Did you have any periods whereyou're like, whoa, what am I
doing here?
What was that like?
Speaker 2 (12:33):
No, I think it met my expectations.
Of course, everybody coming inat the rank I was at the time
you're going to end up workingin the cell block and nothing
glamorous.
So that's what I did initiallygoing in.
Eventually I kind of moved upwhen they realized that I had
(12:56):
skills that would enable me tomaybe do other than cell block
work, do other than cell blockwork.
So that's how that went down.
I mean, you had cell block work, evictions, some fugitive work,
but not a whole lot.
The older guys wanted to do thefugitive work and were involved
(13:17):
in that kind of thing.
As for me, at the time I wasstill considered a rookie and
was not exposed to that when Ifirst got in.
Speaker 3 (13:25):
I just want to add to that that there are no prima
donnas in the Marshal Service.
You start out transportingdangerous prisoners, working the
cell block and that you've gotto be on your toes.
You know, and it kind of teststo see how you're going to react
.
You know, and it kind of teststo see how you're going to react
Like we knew with all thedeputies that we had each
(13:48):
other's back that if somethingwent bad we went right to work
on that situation and dealt withit and I think that's kind of
unique for the Marshal Service.
I've been with a coupleagencies but I know the
camaraderie level agencies.
(14:08):
But I know the camaraderielevel.
When I was an entry deputymyself, you went in there and
you had altercations in the cellblock and if you didn't like
that you found out pretty fastthis wasn't a calling for you,
yeah.
Speaker 1 (14:18):
So what are you doing in there, Like are you taking
them to and from court?
Or like what is your assignmentin the cell block?
Speaker 2 (14:24):
Well, you're searching them when they first
come in, hopefully to ensurethat they don't have not
sneaking anything in anythinglike weapons, knives, guns,
anything like that and then youescort them to court.
That's what you're doing withthe prisoners and you're also
transporting them to and fromthe jail.
Now, we had some I mean I hadsome pretty interesting
(14:47):
experiences at the time.
I had my wife.
At the time she was atGeorgetown University Medical
School and she called me one dayand there was another young
lady that was at GeorgetownMedical School with her and she
(15:08):
said that her Donna has told methat Rafe Edmonds is planning to
escape from DC jail.
I said, okay, we'll get on that.
Anyway, we ended up going to gethim, putting him in a
helicopter and taking him downto Quantico Brig, marine Brig,
down the road, about 30 milesdown the road.
(15:29):
But we were just trying to takeadvantage of any insights or
anybody that could give usinformation that might make what
we're trying to accomplish moresecure.
So anyway, that's how thathappened.
Additionally, I ended up infact Toby mentioned it I ended
(15:51):
up going to SOG school, specialOperations Group School.
It was a tactical unit, it waschallenging.
I think about 50 of us startedin the program and probably
about 17 of us finished.
So it's rigorous and a lot offolks don't make it through, so
(16:14):
it was good.
Speaker 1 (16:15):
What's that school preparing you for?
Is that more like going afterthe fugitives and stuff like
that?
Speaker 2 (16:20):
Well, that because it's a tactical training.
So I mean there's a lot ofweaponry driving, um just it's,
it's just everything you mightrun into in a hostile situation
within the marshal service.
So, um, that's, that'sbasically what it was actually
(16:42):
Actually what ended up happening.
After I finished that, I endedup getting, or being, promoted
to.
Well, let me back up, tell youa little bit more.
They came out with a newposition.
They asked me if I wanted to goto SOG, and I did, completed
(17:06):
that training and then they saidwell, we would like for you to
consider applying for theposition as an inspector in the
Judicial Security Division.
So I did that, took thatposition as an inspector and did
(17:32):
that for a while.
Subsequently, I got a call frommy director His name was
William E Hall, a great man atthe time, and he said Herb, I
need you out of this position.
I need you in Cleveland, ohio,or Newark, new Jersey.
He said where do you want to go?
(17:55):
I said I'll go wherever youwant to send me.
So I ended up going to Newark,new Jersey, and rather, we ended
up going to Cleveland.
Ohio.
I was in Cleveland for probablythree or four months and ended
up being having to wear a wirein a case that was dealing with
(18:22):
the Cleveland Police Departmentand some thugs there, so I ended
up having to wear that wire.
The director at the time,william E Hall.
He called me and says Herb, Igot to get you out of Cleveland.
He said where do you want to go?
I said I can go wherever youwant to send me.
So that's how I ended up goingto Newark, new Jersey.
(18:44):
Subsequently I got a call fromBill Hall after I had been in
Newark New Jersey for probablyabout eight or nine months and
he said Herb, senator JohnWarner would like to talk to you
, john Warner of Virginia.
And I said what's up?
And he said he wants to discusswith you being the United
(19:04):
States Marshal for beingappointed, being the United
States Marshal being appointedas the United States Marshal for
Virginia.
He says there's never been anAfrican-American United States
Marshal in the state of Virginia.
So I went and met with SenatorJohn Warner and we had a nice
conversation.
He ended up saying you knowHerb well.
(19:27):
We talked about a lot of things, but he ended up saying Herb, I
think you will be an idealperson to be the United States
Marshal for Virginia.
So I ended up being transferredout of Newark, new Jersey, to
Richmond, Virginia, spentprobably close to a year there
(19:48):
and again I get a call fromWilliam E Hall, the director,
and he says Herb, I need you totalk with Senator John Warner.
He wants to interview you withregard to being the United
States Marshal for Virginia.
So Senator John Warner said Iwas a chief deputy at the time.
He said, chief Rutherford, thiscan be a dirty business.
He said especially the politicscan be a dirty business.
(20:10):
He said if you will handle theUS marshalling, I'll handle the
politics and we'll make thisthing work very well.
And we did.
I mean, I really admired andhad a lot of respect for Senator
John Warner.
Yeah, he was a good man.
Unfortunately, he's passed awaynow.
Speaker 3 (20:25):
No, I just wanted to add that, you know, in Pete
Throne's book Behind Blue Eyes,herb wrote the foreword and he's
very modest, he always was.
I mean, you know, he'sappointed by four different
presidents Republicans andDemocrats and that's really
unusual, because those positionsare usually you serve at the
(20:49):
whim of the president and thenwhen power changes you're gone.
But he had such a reputation,you know, in doing that.
As far as fairness and that'sthe one thing that I'll always
remember Herb R, her brother,for is his fairness with
everybody I mean, we both hadpeople that we loved and people
(21:10):
we didn't like, but as long asthey did the job, we didn't care
, you know.
And our makeup was very uniquein DC, with African-Americans,
caucasians, hispanics.
It was a, it was a melting potof diversity and we didn't see
(21:31):
it that way.
Speaker 2 (21:32):
Excuse me, toby, excuse me, toby, but DC had the
largest contingent ofAfrican-Americans deputies and
admin in the country, so it wasa.
It was a unique experiencebeing there and I enjoyed it.
I thoroughly enjoyed it.
So, as I said, I was in DC,rather, I was the marshal in DC
(21:57):
for a number of years and thenended up being promoted to the
marshal's position rather themarshal position in Virginia.
Subsequently I was asked tocome back to Washington DC to be
the United States Marshal.
I took that position and spentabout I guess about 15 years
(22:21):
there as the United StatesMarshal in Washington DC.
It was a challenging job but Ienjoyed it.
I was at home.
I remember when I first wasappointed to the United States
motion position in Virginia, myfather he came down to the
swearing in in Richmond,virginia.
(22:42):
A lot of the Virginiacongressmen, senators, that kind
of thing were at the swearingin and I remember my father
saying son, I'm really proud ofyou, I'm happy for you, but it
sure would have been nice hadyou been able to get the job as
the United States Marshal forWashington DC.
(23:02):
I said, yeah, dad, it certainlywould have been Well.
Within a year or so I was theUnited States Marshal in
Washington DC.
Within a year or so I was theUnited States Marshal in
Washington DC.
But I guess you know, I knewthe guys, I knew the city and I
(23:27):
guess, especially having a chiefdeputy like Toby there who was
just real savvy and got alongwith everybody, it was an ideal,
it was a match made in heaven,let me put it that way.
I don't know that it'shappening that way in the
martial service now any longer.
Toby, what do you think?
Speaker 3 (23:38):
I think that it's changed a lot.
Like I said, there were verybusy times in the 80s and you
know, one of the highlights thatwe had working together was
Operation Flagship, which had todo with arresting all that
(23:58):
heard talk about it.
But he said, go, set this up,we'll work together.
And then when we got so manypeople responding to the
Washington Redskins game, webrought it up to headquarters.
(24:19):
But this whole thing wasconceived and it was conceived
not as a master plan ofheadquarters, it was having
dinner at my townhome with her.
Myself and my ex-wife, aidaperez, had made cuban food and
herb loves cuban food andsangria.
(24:40):
So I, when I had the invitation, it was like what well, I'm
going to tell another story too.
Too, that you remember.
We would go to Arlington,virginia, across the bridge, and
there was one Cuban restaurant,ok, and we went for the
restaurant and we had one of our, our terrific deputies, gary
(25:02):
Noble, had a top 15 fugitive whoHerb knew from the neighborhood
and cornered at HowardUniversity and we said let's go.
We put our food down on thecampus and drew down on this guy
Now this is kind of unusualbecause this is what deputies do
(25:25):
and we were called up toheadquarters and we were asked
you guys are supposed to be theadministrators, you're the
executives of the office, whatthe hell?
And Herb had the best answer.
He said Mr Director, I was onmy lunch hour.
Now, if I said it I would havegot my ass out in the hallway
(25:45):
and yelled at, but it was HerbRutherford.
Speaker 2 (25:48):
Out of coverage.
What?
Speaker 3 (25:50):
I know you had me.
Speaker 2 (25:52):
But that was I would have covered you.
Speaker 3 (25:55):
I know that, I know that for sure.
But very modest, you know, likethat'll never happen again Four
presidents in a row like that.
You know most of it is themarshal, because most deputies
and agents go through theirwhole career as line people and
(26:16):
there's nothing wrong with that.
I did that myself and and that,but it's a very unique
situation, you know, and justjust the way that he dealt with
the people in the courthouse,just the way that he dealt with
the people in the courthouse.
There was a couple occasionsthat I would piss off the judges
, you know, just because ofbeing a brash 29-year-old, and
(26:43):
he would go upstairs and say letme clean this up for you.
But all in all, it was reallyreally, really a good time and a
great boss that I had.
Speaker 2 (26:50):
And we've been friends ever since.
I mean, it's been a closenessto us ever since, both in the
country, out of the country,different assignments, different
places.
So he's like my brother yes,better than some of my brothers.
Speaker 3 (27:09):
I used to joke around I say, when we were there, it's
like Rutherford and Roach, it'slike a law firm.
You know, you could just put aplaque up outside the courthouse
, because that's how it sounded.
And, believe me, there was a lotof pressure.
Herb, you know that we had howmany judges were in that
building district court andcourt of appeals that they all
(27:33):
had their own little things thatthey wanted, you know, and you
had to balance that.
You had to balance that out.
But when we got into flagshipit was challenging.
We had a fantastic time becauseI just remember saying, you
know, we had a great man, howardSafer, who passed away.
(27:56):
He was the chief of the NewYork City Police Department, he
was the commissioner and he roseup and he was a role model, you
know, for everybody.
But at that point he had fullconfidence in us doing this and
allowing it to happen.
(28:16):
So, you know, some peoplethought we were crazy.
They said, oh, if you get 200people up there and they
recognize each other.
But you got to remembersomething there was no internet,
there was no cell phones, therewas no social media like today.
Now, would it work?
Today?
Absolutely not.
(28:37):
People would get hurt and thisand that, but we had the whole
operation spelled out.
Speaker 1 (28:44):
So it wouldn't even be considered.
Today They'd say get out ofhere, it's a logistics nightmare
100% right, herb.
Speaker 3 (28:52):
They wouldn't do that today.
Speaker 2 (28:53):
Yes, I don't.
The DC offices, I mean.
I'm sure they are veryprofessional and doing a fine
job, but it was a lot differentback then, a lot different.
Speaker 1 (29:05):
I'll go back to what you were saying before.
You know you face somechallenges, unique challenges
and stuff.
What was the most challengingpart of that job?
Speaker 2 (29:12):
Dealing with judges was challenging, but also I mean
, you know, dc can be a toughplace to work.
There were a lot of prisoners,and all the prisoners thought
they were bad.
We didn't back down fromanybody.
But so, I mean, as time went on, they developed a respect for
(29:37):
us.
They knew we were fair, weweren't going to abuse anybody,
but we weren't going to take anycrap either.
So that worked fine.
In fact, toby used to do someboxing too, didn't he?
Speaker 3 (29:48):
Well, I did wrestling .
You used to do some boxing too,didn't you?
Well, I did wrestling.
They had a guy we had a deputy,floyd Johnson who was.
He was huge and he went to theWorld Police Olympics and I said
he says I don't got anybody totrain with.
I said I'll train with you andI remember coming down from like
(30:08):
two hours of training with himand I had cuts on my face.
I had everything else and I'mdressed in a suit, you
understand, bruised up andwalking around Everybody's, like
what happened to you?
I'd go.
It was Floyd, it was him, itwasn't a bandit or anything like
(30:29):
that.
It was that.
Speaker 1 (30:33):
So what kind of situations would you have to
deal with, judges?
What would make it a difficultsituation versus a seamless
situation?
Speaker 3 (30:44):
I'll let you answer now.
Speaker 2 (30:45):
Judges.
Many of them feel that they'rejudges and there's, you know,
whatever they say goes.
So the majority of the judgesin the federal court there in
Washington DC were good, weregreat.
They respected us and what wewere trying to do and they were
(31:10):
going to be in our corner ifanything happened.
And I guess I remember alsoyears ago there was another
situation that took place andthis was at the Superior Court
in Washington DC.
The US Marshal's Office at thattime had the responsibilities
for the Superior Court, which isthe city court, as well as the
(31:33):
federal court, which is thedistrict court.
So we worked hard to ensure thesecurity of the judiciary and
the courts themselves, and itcould get pretty rough over
there sometime, and the courtsthemselves, and it could get
pretty rough over theresometimes, but all is well.
(31:55):
I like to think that we set thestage for a very professional
office and an office that woulddo whatever it took to get the
job done.
That's the way we handled it.
That's the way we ended updoing it.
We didn't turn down anyassignments or anything.
It could get a little dangeroussometime, but that goes with
(32:16):
the territory.
Speaker 3 (32:17):
Yeah, we actually had touch football games with
Superior Court and DistrictCourt and they were fun, because
you know, when guys play touchfootball it turns out not to be
touch football.
But we got the judges thatwould go to.
The judges would go to thegames, the federal judges, I
(32:39):
mean.
And what he was referring towith the boxing was it wasn't me
we had a young deputy who wentto the world uh uh, police
olympics and he fought and hewon the championship.
So so, as you know, john Sirica, who was the Watergate judge,
he was a boxer in the army and Iget a phone call you know, can
(33:01):
you send this guy up?
And Sirica said it was Mike,you know, and he goes like this
and he goes, let me see what yougot.
And I looked at him and I saiddo not hit this man.
This is God, do not hit him.
And the other one that he bailedme out on was we do evictions
(33:25):
in DC.
You'd go and after somebody.
It was kind of a sad thing, butyou had to place the evictee's
property on the sidewalk infront of you, okay, or across
the street.
I'm right, I think I'm right.
So we put that in a coupletimes.
Well, this guy calls in and oneof the supervisors is on the
(33:47):
phone and he, he says yep, okay,all right, listen, I know a
little bit about the law myself.
Okay, mr burger, and please, ifyou don't, if you have a
problem, talk to my chief deputy, tobias roach.
Okay, so I, I went off and Isaid I said no, you did the
(34:08):
right thing, you moved the stuffacross the street.
Well, herb Herb comes runningback.
He says I just got a call fromthe attorney general, the house,
that you placed the evicteestuff in front of it's Chief
Justice, warren Burger.
And, needless to say, I saw mytransfer in front of my eyes and
(34:30):
I said let's just move it downa couple things, a couple houses
down where we do this.
But yeah, so the big joke wasthat when the guy he's since
deceased retired, we got him atrophy and it says with a
justice thing on it, with agavel.
It said listen, mr Berger, Iknow a little bit about the law
myself.
(34:50):
Gavel.
It said listen, mr berger, Iknow a little bit about the law
myself.
Speaker 2 (34:54):
So those were some of the another thing too.
Yeah, another thing that uhhappened was, uh, I guess that
years ago, before the unitedstates marshals office in
washington dc handled it, was aseparate office, separate for
the Superior Court and one forthe District Court.
(35:15):
Well, one day I was assigned tothe Superior Court.
A deputy had a.
When you're dealing withprisoners, the policy was you
don't have a gun aroundprisoners.
Well, this deputy had obviouslyforgotten to take his gun off
(35:35):
or whatever.
But one of the prisoners stoodup in the chair in the courtroom
and the deputy went over to himand bent over, put his hand on
his shoulder to force him to sitdown.
But when he went bent over, hiscoat suit coat kind of slid
back and the prisoner saw thedeputy's gun.
(35:59):
He reached in the holster andpulled the gun out.
So you had Gary Noble andCarlisle Burch.
They're fighting him.
They got a gun up in the air,they're trying to disarm him and
(36:22):
he ended up dying in thestruggle.
So I mean, now the issue is youwere taught when you're that
close to prisoners you shouldn'thave a gun on you where they
could gain access to it.
So anyway that went down the waythat it shouldn't have gone
(36:44):
down, but the prisoner died.
They said the prisoner himself.
He died of a torn heart.
They said well, when you lookat Gary Noble and Carlisle Birch
, both of them weighed well over250 pounds.
So when they disarmed him inthe struggle, he passed away.
(37:10):
When they disarmed him in thestruggle, he passed away.
And you know, as is normallythe case, the Metropolitan
Police are going to have to do ahomicide investigation and all
that.
But it was ruled that.
You know they took the actionsthey had to take.
Unfortunately he died, but wehad our share of experiences
(37:32):
there.
I was blessed to have been insuch a great office as the
District of Columbia.
I just had some greatexperiences.
Speaker 3 (37:40):
Toby was one of those great experiences we had a.
It was a different time, likeyou know, I'm not going to say
we were like cowboys, because weweren't, but at the same time
we gave a lot of attitude.
A lot of attitude I meant notattitude, but you know the
ability to go out and do yourjob and do things and you know
(38:04):
we had some hairy incidents withdeputies there.
You know we beefed up thewarrant squad, which was a good
thing, because DC in the 80s wasthe murder capital of the
United States.
It was.
It was just a very violentcrack cocaine was hitting the
streets and different areas ofthe district and that.
(38:27):
So we went out and we had greatdeputies that worked with us
and they made a lot ofapprehensions, to begin in the
middle 80s, right when that wasstarting out.
So it was good we hadheadquarters looking at us every
(38:49):
day, because back then thelocal section of the Washington
Post was read by everybody, notlike today with your news is on
your phone and you've got themajor networks.
I mean you had things in theirinfancy CNN stuff like that, so
(39:10):
you didn't have it, so theywould get their news there and
they all liked to pay attentionto DC.
But no, his background wasterrific.
You know, I was never in themilitary.
You know I was kind ofdifferent.
I would come from Californiaand that Kind of different, I
(39:32):
would come from California andthat, and you know, it just was
a really really good combination.
And people noticed it, I thinkHerb all the deputies, because
they had had histories beforewhere the marshal didn't get
along with the chief or thechief didn't get along with the
marshal, and that hurts morale.
You know, that's the wholething.
(39:53):
That's how law enforcement issuccessful.
It's all about the morale ofthe people that you're working
with and that.
So when we did flagship, themorale was through the roof that
we did it and we kept it a bigsecret, which you know.
You say, how can you keep asecret in Washington?
Well, back then you didn't havethe social media.
(40:15):
You had tough reporters thatsniffed around the courthouse
but we kept that secret.
When we briefed the deputiesinvolved and they brought in the
SOG team, special OperationsGroup, the Metropolitan Police,
their SWAT team and everybody,nobody had a clue, right Hurt,
nobody knew what was going on.
(40:36):
They were in shock.
They were in shock.
Speaker 1 (40:39):
Because I saw the documentary, the 30 for 30
documentary, and so there waslike cameras.
You guys were shooting thatyourselves.
Where was that footage from?
Speaker 2 (40:48):
Go ahead.
We had some media.
The media was going to be there.
They wanted to take pictures ofit and that not only well, it
covered us, because if thecamera's there there's less
likely to be any abuses.
And you know, we weren't thereto kill anybody or unnecessarily
hurt anybody.
(41:08):
But having the media there wasa good thing a very good thing.
Speaker 1 (41:12):
So they kind of knew, but they had the good sense of
not spoiling it.
Speaker 3 (41:16):
No, there was only certain media that they broke
the story to and that was not atour level, that was at
headquarters and they wentthrough a vetting process with
that and they went through avetting process with that.
So we didn't have like, I mean,you can't keep a secret in
(41:38):
Washington.
I mean, you know, no matterwhat era it's been, you know
it's always politics and that,and we stayed away from that.
We stayed away from politicsand this and that, you know, and
just did our jobs.
You know.
But yeah, it's a good question,jeff, we very few people know
(42:01):
about it and the media was.
They covered it from from aboutthe second weekend or third
week when we we got a tremendousresponse and we realized that
we didn't have the personnel tocover this, because when you're
taking groups of 20 people up toa room and arresting 150 in a
(42:26):
period of an hour and a half,two hours, it's got to run very
quickly and all that.
So you know, it was the largestone-day actually three-hour
roundup, I think, in the historyof law enforcement that we did,
and you know it was very crazy,you know.
(42:48):
But yeah, anyway, it worked.
So I'm glad.
Speaker 2 (42:54):
Actually, it worked surprisingly well.
I mean, it was great.
But we ended up getting callsfrom other law enforcement
agencies around the world Wantedto know how did you all do this
?
How can we do it?
So you know, it was a lot ofinterest from, as I said, a lot
of law enforcement agencieseverywhere.
(43:14):
So and we shared, we hadnothing to hide.
We shared it with them, so itwas a good thing to do.
Another thing that we did in theoffice and Toby would remember
this is my sister was a teacherthere at a place called Smothers
Elementary School in WashingtonDC, and she called me one day
(43:41):
when she got home and said shesaid I need some help.
I said what's that?
She said so many of the youngboys, and it was an elementary
school.
She said so many of these youngboys in this elementary school
don't have fathers at home.
Is there something you all cando to present a male role model
(44:02):
for them that will help them?
I said, well, yeah, let me talkto my people.
I went and talked to one of mypeople.
He was a black belt karateinstructor.
His name was I'm drawing ablank, but who am I talking
about?
Toby, pj Adkins, pj Adkins.
Yeah, pj Adkins.
(44:22):
So I went and talked to PJ.
I said PJ, we need to start aprogram over at Smothers and
River Terrace Elementary Schoolsfor these kids over there.
He said let me give somethought, marshall, I'll get back
to you.
So he got back to me in a fewdays and said I think we can
create a problem and we're goingto call it LAD.
I said what will LAD stand for?
(44:43):
He said it will stand forlearning and discipline.
So we set that program up.
We would go over to the school.
Some of the deputies would goover to the school every week,
work with the young boys, andsometimes they would take them
to theaters or ball games orwhatever.
We had people from anothergroup in Washington DC called
(45:07):
Black Scuba Divers.
So they came over and did apresentation Black schools in
Washington DC.
But we just tried to doeverything we could.
Subsequently, within probablyabout six months, I get a call
(45:28):
from my sister again and shesays there's something else I'm
going to ask you to do.
I said what's that?
She says the girls in theschool said they want their
program too.
They want a program.
And she said we think you canname it LAS as opposed to LA.
So we started another programjust to address the needs of the
(45:50):
young girls there.
So I don't think any of that isstill going on, but it was very
worthwhile.
As my sister said, many of theyoung men there didn't have
fathers at home, so setting thatup was it helped us as well as
helping the kids and theteachers.
(46:11):
Everybody benefited from it.
I had hoped that they wouldcontinue it when I left.
I hope that they would continueit when I left, but I don't
think that it was not continued.
It takes some.
Maybe you know for me, as Isaid when my sister called me,
we both grew up in DC.
She was a teacher, but I felt Ihad a vested interest in trying
(46:34):
to help these young men andyoung girls interest in trying
to help these young men andyoung girls.
But if you don't have peoplethat are from there, it's less
likely that they're going totake the efforts to create these
programs and hang in there withthem and make them work.
We actually even had theAttorney General come over at
the time Toby, what was her name?
Speaker 3 (46:56):
Which one I was there .
I was there when Mies was thereand William French Smith.
It would have been after I leftto go to customs.
Speaker 2 (47:05):
This would have been a female, female attorney
general.
Yeah, I'm drawing a blank.
Speaker 3 (47:12):
Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2 (47:13):
But, but we, we, we did a lot of things I mean, it's
mean with those kids.
It was always a Christmasdinner that we would put on for
them and just anything we coulddo to try to keep them out of
trouble and give them a reasonto want to excel, and it worked
(47:35):
quite well.
I don't think it's stillworking now.
I don't think it's still goingthere.
I don't think it's still goingthere.
In fact, when I did end upleaving DC, I challenged the
person who replaced me not tolet it go by the wayside.
But for whatever reason, theydidn't feel that it was worth
their time.
Speaker 1 (47:54):
Hey, herb, I'm super interested in what you were
talking about in Cleveland whenyou had to go undercover and
wear a wire with the police.
Did that give you a lot ofanxiety, or were you pretty
focused on what you were doing?
How did that go?
Speaker 2 (48:13):
I was focused on what I was doing.
I just felt it was somethingthat I needed to do and what it
was.
We went on a.
We were after a fugitive.
We Mark Farmer, who was adeputy at the time, actually
went on to be an assistantdirector.
I think at some point.
Speaker 3 (48:30):
A fifth degree black belt too.
Speaker 2 (48:32):
Yeah, he ran toward the door and did a flying
sidekick to knock the door down,kick the door in, and we went
in, arrested a lot of the peoplethat had drugs there and stolen
merchandise and all.
And I remember I went backoutside standing outside and I
saw the police with TVs and awhole bunch of stuff they just
(48:56):
collected and I asked them Isaid what is this?
They said oh, it's all stolenmerchandise.
I said okay, well, then thenext day some of them came to me
.
Two of them came to me and saidhad an envelope full of money
and said this is yours.
I said I don't want it.
But then I ended up calling myboss, who called the FBI head at
(49:22):
the time, and the next day theysaid well, marshal Rutherford,
would you be willing to wear awire?
I said sure, I'll wear a wire.
So I wore that wire on thatcase and then about two days
later, as I said, my directorcalled me and said Herb, we need
to get you out of Cleveland.
Speaker 3 (49:39):
If I could comment on it a little bit, that was a
tough time in Cleveland.
They actually made a moviecalled Kill the Irishman and in
that movie there's a guy, DannyBoy Green, and he was going
around and he was bombing.
They would bomb the carsInstead of killing you, they'd
blow up the cars.
(49:59):
So we had a major mob trial.
And that's when I met Herb forthe first time in 82.
I was detailed out to Clevelandand we were protecting the
witnesses for the governmentagainst the organized crime
there, for the governmentagainst the organized crime
(50:20):
there.
So this ties into the sameerror that he ran into.
This bribery.
Bring back memories, Herb, butthat's how I—huh Bring back
memories of Cleveland.
Huh, those guys, yeah.
Speaker 2 (50:32):
Yeah, but it was a good—I had great experiences in
the Mars martial service.
Some of it was challenging.
I mean, after having did what Idid in the military, it was a
good thing for me.
I was blessed.
I was truly blessed.
Speaker 3 (50:52):
He's good on arrest too because, like when we went
out and we arrested the top 15on our lunch hour, we went and I
said, herb, I don't know DC, Iknow the back roads, but I can
drive too fast, too furioustoday, so we ended up getting
there with the traffic in eightminutes.
(51:15):
It was amazing, turn here, turnhere, and I'm like okay and
that, but no, and that's whatyou look at.
You look at the streetmentality, even at higher
management.
We've both worked with managersthat you wouldn't go through a
(51:35):
door with, I mean.
But the Marshal Service didn'thave very many of them where
they got bad reputations.
It was all about yourreputation and that, and that
was very clear with theprisoners.
They didn't mess with youbecause they knew and not that
they were going to get their asskicked, which occasionally you
(51:57):
had to do, and not that theywere going to get their ass
kicked, which occasionally youhad to do.
But if you showed the respect,then they showed it to you.
You had a professionalrelationship with them and it
was very, very evident in DC.
That's how it operated, becauseit was a high volume of
prisoners between Superior court, which is like their city court
(52:19):
, and the federal court and thenwe had we had orders that that
they had too many prisoners andwe had remember we had to take
them to lorton and we had to goto petersburg because the jails
were really overcrowded.
This was, this was the 80s, thiswas washington d.
I was there.
We could sit here and talkabout the Iran-Contra, you know,
(52:42):
which we dealt with.
That was really high profile,probably the, you know, very,
very divisive.
You know, like the water,there's stages in our history,
especially in DC.
They had Watergate, iran-contraand and who knows what the
future is going to be.
There's always been thepolitical trials but you had to
(53:04):
maintain your professionalism,no matter how you felt about
that person going in, and itcame from the chief judge and
her that anybody that was goingto grand jury care who it was.
If you were an administrativesecretary for the president or
(53:27):
whatever, you went in throughthe main entrance, you know
whether you had Secret Serviceprotection or FBI protection and
we dealt with that, you know.
And we also had high threatsthat we had on people.
Herb put in the first Deltabarriers that we had.
(53:49):
They didn't have Delta barriersin the courthouses but we had
that and we had put inbulletproof windows, you know.
So we had the Delta barriers.
Speaker 2 (53:58):
And a secure courtroom.
Speaker 3 (54:00):
Yes, all that was brand new to the Marshal Service
.
We were the test office forthat.
I won't mention the physicalfitness facility that we built,
because that wasstate-of-the-art at the time and
you know, thank God we had thebacking of the judges to do that
(54:20):
well I had caught.
Speaker 2 (54:23):
What happened was I had called uh my director his
name was stan morris at the timeand told him that I would like
to uh put in a fitness facility,and he said you know, herbert,
you've got uh the money in yourbudget, you can go ahead and do
it.
Well, we ended up putting in,you know, mirosana, whirlpool,
all the different weights andeverything, so it worked out
(54:45):
fine.
Speaker 3 (54:46):
I wasn't going to say it.
Speaker 2 (54:47):
But we named it after a man named Norman Sheriff.
Now Norman Sheriff was a deputyUnited States marshal who was
killed in Washington DC.
He was on an assignment and wasshot and killed.
But you just try to, as amanager in these places, you try
(55:09):
to leave the place better thanyou found it or enhance it based
on what you're able toaccomplish while you're there,
and Toby and I were blessed tohave been able to do a lot there
and I certainly think, and I'msure Toby would agree leave it
better than what we found it.
Speaker 3 (55:27):
Yeah, most definitely , most definitely.
It was a unique situation.
Speaker 1 (55:35):
Herb.
Before we let you go, beforeour time is up, I'd love to know
, based on your career and yourexperience as a marshal, like
we're sitting here 2024, right,we're recording this in May of
2024 what is?
Like the thing that concernsyou the most about where things
(55:55):
are in the world right now, andwhat is one thing that gives you
the most hope.
Speaker 2 (56:00):
What concerns me the most.
Well, I think that we're stillfinding or it's obvious, you see
so many occasions where policeare abusing prisoners, and I
think that's we can't maintainas law enforcement officers.
We can't maintain our integrityif we are going to carry out
(56:25):
some of the heinous actions thatsome law enforcement
administrators, chiefs or whathave you are allowing to take
place within their particulardepartments.
So I think that's what we allhave to get away from.
(56:46):
I mean, we have to, but itcomes down to management.
All of us have been inmanagement.
That's what it comes down tojust being a manager that's not
going to tolerate certainactivities.
Speaker 3 (56:59):
And what do you?
Speaker 2 (57:00):
think.
Speaker 3 (57:00):
Toby, I agree with you.
I come from.
One of the purposes of thispodcast is that we're doing with
the series is it's going tohave everybody on the criminal
justice spectrum, and I meanwe're going to have deputies,
we're going to have policeofficers, special agents,
prosecutors, defense lawyers,inmates released, people given
(57:25):
second chances that were liferswith you know, compassionate
release, innovative programs andthis and that, and some of the
people we have lined up, youknow, I think, are going to
clearly show this to the public,that it's a wide spectrum and
(57:46):
one of the things everybodycriticizes criminal justice, but
they don't talk about how tofix it.
You notice, you watch the TV,you watch CNN, fox News,
whatever you watch, and they'realways criticizing but there's
no remedies to any of this.
It's communication.
Speaker 2 (58:07):
Fixing it can come as an afterthought and you have to
kind of be ahead of the ball.
Speaker 3 (58:12):
Preventing Absolutely .
Speaker 1 (58:16):
You know that was.
I think it was a pretty greatway to end.
Yeah, yeah, great way to endAnything you'd like to mention
or shout out, or you know what'sgoing on with you over there.
Speaker 2 (58:26):
Well, I'd like to certainly mention again Senator
John Warner of Virginia, whoappointed me, or who nominated
me, to be the firstAfrican-American United States
Marshal in the state of Virginia, and he was a great man, a good
man, and I'm just honored tohave been able to to know him
(58:50):
and to serve in that position.
Speaker 3 (58:52):
Now what?
What president did you serveunder?
Let let everybody know.
Okay, nixon, I don't think we'dbe talking today.
Speaker 2 (58:58):
Did you serve under?
Let everybody know, okay,ronald Reagan twice.
Speaker 3 (59:00):
Nixon, I don't think we'd be talking today.
Speaker 2 (59:04):
No, no, ronald Reagan twice.
And then there was Bush Sr andthen Clinton, bill Clinton.
And after that, after I wasappointed by Clinton, everybody
predicted my demise because theywere saying, herb, you know,
you were appointed by theseRepublicans, you're not going to
get it again.
And I got appointed again.
So I was appointed by Clinton,everybody predicted my demise
because they were saying, herb,you know, you were appointed by
these Republicans, you're notgoing to get it again.
And I got appointed again.
So I was blessed, of course,when you got great people
(59:26):
working for you, greatleadership on your team.
It doesn't make sense to make alot of changes because you're
not going to get any better.
It's unlikely you're going toget any better.
Speaker 3 (59:37):
Yeah, I think that's a good note.
Thank you so much herb for yourtime, brother.
Speaker 2 (59:41):
See you appreciate it for your time.
Thank you for, uh, yourinterest.
Speaker 1 (59:45):
Okay, pleasure to have you too, have a great one
pleasure is ours thank you.
Welcome everybody to the Justice Then, justice Now
podcast.
My name is Jeff Thomas, I'mhere with Toby Roach and our
guest is on with us right now,herb Rutherford.
How are you doing, herb?
I'm well, thank you.
Thank you so much for being ourfirst guest.
Speaker 2 (00:13):
Yes, well, Toby had been talking about this for
quite a while and I'm honoredthat we are going to do this.
Thank you so much, Awesome.
So where and when did you firstmeet Toby?
I met Toby.
It would have been 19,.
Would have been 85, Toby, Isthat?
Speaker 3 (00:29):
the year.
No, you met me in 82 inCleveland, so that's where we
met the first time 82, right,Okay, 82.
Speaker 2 (00:37):
In Cleveland.
I was there for the Liccavolitrial, James White, yeah.
Well, what happened was I endedup having a chief deputy that,
for better reasons than not, heended up going elsewhere.
And you know, when you'regetting a new chief deputy in,
(00:57):
there's concern as to how areyou going to blend with this guy
.
We didn't have many femalechief devs at the time, but I
was very concerned about whowould be coming in, so Toby came
in.
We sat down in my office forabout I think it was about an
hour and a half two hours justtalking to each other, Just
(01:21):
talking to each other, gettingto know each other.
By the time we finished ourintroductions to each other and
talking to each other, gettingto know each other by the time
we finished our introductions toeach other and talking to each
other at least in my mind I'msaying this is going to work out
great.
Toby is going to be an idealchief deputy.
So that's how we met.
Well, we met in Cleveland atfirst, but this is when I first
(01:43):
met him, coming back into myoffice in Washington DC.
Speaker 1 (01:48):
What were you doing in?
Speaker 2 (01:49):
Cleveland.
I was the chief deputy UnitedStates Marshal in Cleveland.
I ended up having to wear awire in a case up there and a
day or so later my director,william E Hall, called me and
said Herb, we've got to get youout of Cleveland.
(02:10):
So they sent me to Newark, newJersey, as the chief deputy.
Speaker 1 (02:19):
So that's how that went down.
So Newark is that an upgrade orhas?
Speaker 2 (02:24):
that fallen off the cliff.
It was a challenge, but Ienjoyed it.
Speaker 3 (02:34):
You have any Newark stories, toby?
No, no, he had very toughoffices with a lot of trials
with organized crime that hedirected there.
So it was very helpful with meto be the chief deputy in DC
getting experience with some ofthe Iran-Contra trials we had we
had.
You know, dc is the fishbowlfor the Marshal Service that's
the best way to describe it andthey watched to see like if
(02:57):
something goes wrong in USDistrict Court and with the
Court of Appeals.
Speaker 2 (03:03):
Getting back to Toby and I getting together, I guess
when he came into the office, asI said, we sat down and talked
for a couple hours and at theend of that discussion I think
both of us had formed theopinion that this was going to
be an ideal match, an idealsituation.
So Toby moved in shortlythereafter, moved into the area.
(03:29):
I met his wife, aida at thetime and it was just a very
positive experience the wholetime.
The whole time he and I weretogether.
Speaker 1 (03:39):
I have a similar type first meeting with Toby under
some different circumstances, ata cage fight.
Speaker 2 (03:48):
Wasn't at a bar, was he?
Speaker 1 (03:49):
No, shortly thereafter.
I'm sure that's where he doesall his best work.
That's what I've heard anyway.
Speaker 3 (03:56):
Yeah, he has a rum collection behind him.
You can see that in the view,Jeff.
Speaker 1 (04:02):
Herb.
Can I take you all the way back?
Where did you grow up?
What was your childhood like?
Speaker 2 (04:06):
I grew up in Washington DC Pretty tough area
at the time, but I did wellthere and ended up going to well
, grew up in Washington DC, wentinto the military at 19 years
(04:28):
old.
I spent about 22 months inKorea and I was told that I had
orders I was going to be goingto Fort Polk, louisiana.
I went to my superiors andmentioned to them that I really
didn't want to go to Fort Polk.
What were my options?
(04:48):
And they said, well, herb, youcan go to Vietnam.
And I said, well, fine, I'll goto Vietnam.
So I ended up going to Vietnam.
Now, my assignment that I hadin Vietnam was a unique
assignment.
I guess we all remember hearingabout the my Lai Massacre of
1969, I guess it was.
(05:09):
So they ended up.
I ended up flying into Vietnam,met with my boss, who was an
African-American gentleman.
He was a civilian close.
He was driving a civilian sheep.
His name was Oren Blackman andwe sat down and talked for quite
(05:33):
a while and I just realizedthat it was going to be a good
assignment.
Now he was about 20 years olderthan I was, maybe 25 years
older than I was, but we hit itoff well.
Now, he never went to the field.
That was my job.
I was in the field and the jobas an advisor to the Vietnamese
(05:56):
National Speed Force had me inthe field and it was good.
I mean at his age, as I said,he was about 20, 25 years older
than I was it was better.
I was more suited to be in thefield than he was, so he worked
out very well.
Well, I was kind of on the edgea lot as a young man.
I guess my parents and a lot ofpeople at that time were
(06:19):
getting strung out on heroin andthat kind of thing.
I was never going to do that.
When I first came back fromVietnam, many of the young men
that I'd grown up with wereheroin addicts.
I came, and the first day I gotback from Vietnam I saw a guy
(06:43):
that I had been in high schoolwith and he said Herb, do you
want?
to try some of this.
I said, no, I can.
A guy that saw a guy that I hadbeen in high school with and he
said, herb, you want to trysome of this and pulled out some
heroin.
And I said, no, I can't go thatway.
So I mean, he's dead now, justas most of the young men that I
grew up with are dead now.
So I've been blessed.
I've been truly blessed.
What else can I tell you aboutmy early days?
What so?
What branch were you in?
(07:03):
What else can I tell you aboutmy early days?
What branch were you in?
Army?
Actually, I was trained as an MPin Korea, but when I went to
Vietnam, they told me that I wasgoing to be advising a unit of
the Vietnamese National PoliceField Force.
Now, this was following the myLai Massacre of 19, I guess 1969
(07:28):
, 70, in that area.
So that was my job, but I hadto.
I was an advisor with theVietnamese National Police Field
Force.
They said they could never have.
In fact, their words were wecan never have Americans killing
Vietnamese civilians.
So you were going to, they said, told me that I would be
(07:50):
assigned to a Vietnamese unit ofthe National Police Field Force
as an advisor, both to get themequipment and to just get them
the support they needed whenthey were in the field.
As I said, they just alwaysreinforced that we can never
have American soldiers killingVietnamese civilians.
(08:11):
So that was the nature of thejob I had when I was there.
Speaker 1 (08:15):
So when you get out of the Army, how long were you
there?
Did you do?
A couple of years, a coupletours out there.
Speaker 2 (08:21):
I just did a total of three years.
And when I came home I startedapplying for jobs.
I applied for a position withthe Secret Service and I don't
know what happened there.
But they ended up telling methat they couldn't access my
military health records.
(08:42):
And I told them.
I said I don't know where theywould be.
I never saw them.
In Vietnam could have beenblown up, but I never saw them.
So they ended up telling mewell, perhaps you're gonna.
As I said, I applied for a jobwith the Secret Service and they
couldn't find my health records.
So I was kind of undesirable tothem.
So I went and applied for aposition with the United States
(09:04):
Marshal Service and they saidsure, we'd love to have you.
So I went to work for theUnited States Marshal Service
and was actually with them from1971 to to what?
2088, I guess.
Speaker 1 (09:26):
So a long time when you were in the Army.
Were these positions that youthought maybe I could do this
afterwards, or was it just theright place at the right time?
Speaker 2 (09:36):
I thought about that, trying to do it or applying to
do it afterwards, but that endedup not working that way.
I mean, I guess about a yearafter I got there my time was up
, so I could have stayed longerif I wanted to, but I didn't.
I just got out and came homeand started applying for
positions in various lawenforcement agencies.
Speaker 1 (10:00):
So you were straight to the marshals, not like Toby
was a cop and then kind of movedto the marshals.
Speaker 3 (10:06):
He knows this story.
We have a mutual friend namedPaul Desmond, and Herb was in
the special operations group,which is a 99-person unit,
practical unit yeah.
Yeah, they're paramilitary.
And I went into the federalcourthouse looking for jobs
(10:27):
because I was on midnights and Iran into a guy by the name of
Paul Desmond and I came in andhe was the best recruiter I've
ever seen.
He came in, he had me allpumped up.
I was like 22 years old, 23.
And he had me.
So you know that's how I gotstarted.
(10:48):
Pretty much I went in thebasement of the federal building
and that's always, always wherethe marshals are right Herb,
the first floor or the basement.
When you even the courthouse inDC, it's the marshals right on
the first floor before you getto any courtrooms.
Speaker 2 (11:05):
Exactly, exactly.
But, like I said, when Tobyfirst got there, I was elated to
have had him Chief Deputy in anoffice is a very important
position, as you can imagine,and just having somebody that we
immediately knew that we couldwork well together.
So that was a great situationand I guess the period of the
(11:35):
years that we were together itwas great.
He was a great friend and atalented manager and leader, so
it was great.
Speaker 3 (11:45):
We also liked to sing music, you know, because it was
very unique.
Her was 37 years old and I was29.
And I think you know theaverage age of the marshal and
the chief deputy was probably inthe 50s.
So we balanced out at like age32, which today wouldn't happen.
(12:06):
I'm pretty sure they won't havethat happen again not from a
bad experience, but I'm sayingjust the unique time that we
were in in the 80s.
Speaker 1 (12:17):
So I know just from my conversations with Toby a
little bit about what theMarshalls do.
What was your experience likewhen you first joined?
Did you have any expectations?
Did you have any periods whereyou're like, whoa, what am I
doing here?
What was that like?
Speaker 2 (12:33):
No, I think it met my expectations.
Of course, everybody coming inat the rank I was at the time
you're going to end up workingin the cell block and nothing
glamorous.
So that's what I did initiallygoing in.
Eventually I kind of moved upwhen they realized that I had
(12:56):
skills that would enable me tomaybe do other than cell block
work, do other than cell blockwork.
So that's how that went down.
I mean, you had cell block work, evictions, some fugitive work,
but not a whole lot.
The older guys wanted to do thefugitive work and were involved
(13:17):
in that kind of thing.
As for me, at the time I wasstill considered a rookie and
was not exposed to that when Ifirst got in.
Speaker 3 (13:25):
I just want to add to that that there are no prima
donnas in the Marshal Service.
You start out transportingdangerous prisoners, working the
cell block and that you've gotto be on your toes.
You know, and it kind of teststo see how you're going to react
.
You know, and it kind of teststo see how you're going to react
Like we knew with all thedeputies that we had each
(13:48):
other's back that if somethingwent bad we went right to work
on that situation and dealt withit and I think that's kind of
unique for the Marshal Service.
I've been with a coupleagencies but I know the
camaraderie level agencies.
(14:08):
But I know the camaraderielevel.
When I was an entry deputymyself, you went in there and
you had altercations in the cellblock and if you didn't like
that you found out pretty fastthis wasn't a calling for you,
yeah.
Speaker 1 (14:18):
So what are you doing in there, Like are you taking
them to and from court?
Or like what is your assignmentin the cell block?
Speaker 2 (14:24):
Well, you're searching them when they first
come in, hopefully to ensurethat they don't have not
sneaking anything in anythinglike weapons, knives, guns,
anything like that and then youescort them to court.
That's what you're doing withthe prisoners and you're also
transporting them to and fromthe jail.
Now, we had some I mean I hadsome pretty interesting
(14:47):
experiences at the time.
I had my wife.
At the time she was atGeorgetown University Medical
School and she called me one dayand there was another young
lady that was at GeorgetownMedical School with her and she
(15:08):
said that her Donna has told methat Rafe Edmonds is planning to
escape from DC jail.
I said, okay, we'll get on that.
Anyway, we ended up going to gethim, putting him in a
helicopter and taking him downto Quantico Brig, marine Brig,
down the road, about 30 milesdown the road.
(15:29):
But we were just trying to takeadvantage of any insights or
anybody that could give usinformation that might make what
we're trying to accomplish moresecure.
So anyway, that's how thathappened.
Additionally, I ended up infact Toby mentioned it I ended
(15:51):
up going to SOG school, specialOperations Group School.
It was a tactical unit, it waschallenging.
I think about 50 of us startedin the program and probably
about 17 of us finished.
So it's rigorous and a lot offolks don't make it through, so
(16:14):
it was good.
Speaker 1 (16:15):
What's that school preparing you for?
Is that more like going afterthe fugitives and stuff like
that?
Speaker 2 (16:20):
Well, that because it's a tactical training.
So I mean there's a lot ofweaponry driving, um just it's,
it's just everything you mightrun into in a hostile situation
within the marshal service.
So, um, that's, that'sbasically what it was actually
(16:42):
Actually what ended up happening.
After I finished that, I endedup getting, or being, promoted
to.
Well, let me back up, tell youa little bit more.
They came out with a newposition.
They asked me if I wanted to goto SOG, and I did, completed
(17:06):
that training and then they saidwell, we would like for you to
consider applying for theposition as an inspector in the
Judicial Security Division.
So I did that, took thatposition as an inspector and did
(17:32):
that for a while.
Subsequently, I got a call frommy director His name was
William E Hall, a great man atthe time, and he said Herb, I
need you out of this position.
I need you in Cleveland, ohio,or Newark, new Jersey.
He said where do you want to go?
(17:55):
I said I'll go wherever youwant to send me.
So I ended up going to Newark,new Jersey, and rather, we ended
up going to Cleveland.
Ohio.
I was in Cleveland for probablythree or four months and ended
up being having to wear a wirein a case that was dealing with
(18:22):
the Cleveland Police Departmentand some thugs there, so I ended
up having to wear that wire.
The director at the time,william E Hall.
He called me and says Herb, Igot to get you out of Cleveland.
He said where do you want to go?
I said I can go wherever youwant to send me.
So that's how I ended up goingto Newark, new Jersey.
(18:44):
Subsequently I got a call fromBill Hall after I had been in
Newark New Jersey for probablyabout eight or nine months and
he said Herb, senator JohnWarner would like to talk to you
, john Warner of Virginia.
And I said what's up?
And he said he wants to discusswith you being the United
(19:04):
States Marshal for beingappointed, being the United
States Marshal being appointedas the United States Marshal for
Virginia.
He says there's never been anAfrican-American United States
Marshal in the state of Virginia.
So I went and met with SenatorJohn Warner and we had a nice
conversation.
He ended up saying you knowHerb well.
(19:27):
We talked about a lot of things, but he ended up saying Herb, I
think you will be an idealperson to be the United States
Marshal for Virginia.
So I ended up being transferredout of Newark, new Jersey, to
Richmond, Virginia, spentprobably close to a year there
(19:48):
and again I get a call fromWilliam E Hall, the director,
and he says Herb, I need you totalk with Senator John Warner.
He wants to interview you withregard to being the United
States Marshal for Virginia.
So Senator John Warner said Iwas a chief deputy at the time.
He said, chief Rutherford, thiscan be a dirty business.
He said especially the politicscan be a dirty business.
(20:10):
He said if you will handle theUS marshalling, I'll handle the
politics and we'll make thisthing work very well.
And we did.
I mean, I really admired andhad a lot of respect for Senator
John Warner.
Yeah, he was a good man.
Unfortunately, he's passed awaynow.
Speaker 3 (20:25):
No, I just wanted to add that, you know, in Pete
Throne's book Behind Blue Eyes,herb wrote the foreword and he's
very modest, he always was.
I mean, you know, he'sappointed by four different
presidents Republicans andDemocrats and that's really
unusual, because those positionsare usually you serve at the
(20:49):
whim of the president and thenwhen power changes you're gone.
But he had such a reputation,you know, in doing that.
As far as fairness and that'sthe one thing that I'll always
remember Herb R, her brother,for is his fairness with
everybody I mean, we both hadpeople that we loved and people
(21:10):
we didn't like, but as long asthey did the job, we didn't care
, you know.
And our makeup was very uniquein DC, with African-Americans,
caucasians, hispanics.
It was a, it was a melting potof diversity and we didn't see
(21:31):
it that way.
Speaker 2 (21:32):
Excuse me, toby, excuse me, toby, but DC had the
largest contingent ofAfrican-Americans deputies and
admin in the country, so it wasa.
It was a unique experiencebeing there and I enjoyed it.
I thoroughly enjoyed it.
So, as I said, I was in DC,rather, I was the marshal in DC
(21:57):
for a number of years and thenended up being promoted to the
marshal's position rather themarshal position in Virginia.
Subsequently I was asked tocome back to Washington DC to be
the United States Marshal.
I took that position and spentabout I guess about 15 years
(22:21):
there as the United StatesMarshal in Washington DC.
It was a challenging job but Ienjoyed it.
I was at home.
I remember when I first wasappointed to the United States
motion position in Virginia, myfather he came down to the
swearing in in Richmond,virginia.
(22:42):
A lot of the Virginiacongressmen, senators, that kind
of thing were at the swearingin and I remember my father
saying son, I'm really proud ofyou, I'm happy for you, but it
sure would have been nice hadyou been able to get the job as
the United States Marshal forWashington DC.
(23:02):
I said, yeah, dad, it certainlywould have been Well.
Within a year or so I was theUnited States Marshal in
Washington DC.
Within a year or so I was theUnited States Marshal in
Washington DC.
But I guess you know, I knewthe guys, I knew the city and I
(23:27):
guess, especially having a chiefdeputy like Toby there who was
just real savvy and got alongwith everybody, it was an ideal,
it was a match made in heaven,let me put it that way.
I don't know that it'shappening that way in the
martial service now any longer.
Toby, what do you think?
Speaker 3 (23:38):
I think that it's changed a lot.
Like I said, there were verybusy times in the 80s and you
know, one of the highlights thatwe had working together was
Operation Flagship, which had todo with arresting all that
(23:58):
heard talk about it.
But he said, go, set this up,we'll work together.
And then when we got so manypeople responding to the
Washington Redskins game, webrought it up to headquarters.
(24:19):
But this whole thing wasconceived and it was conceived
not as a master plan ofheadquarters, it was having
dinner at my townhome with her.
Myself and my ex-wife, aidaperez, had made cuban food and
herb loves cuban food andsangria.
(24:40):
So I, when I had the invitation, it was like what well, I'm
going to tell another story too.
Too, that you remember.
We would go to Arlington,virginia, across the bridge, and
there was one Cuban restaurant,ok, and we went for the
restaurant and we had one of our, our terrific deputies, gary
(25:02):
Noble, had a top 15 fugitive whoHerb knew from the neighborhood
and cornered at HowardUniversity and we said let's go.
We put our food down on thecampus and drew down on this guy
Now this is kind of unusualbecause this is what deputies do
(25:25):
and we were called up toheadquarters and we were asked
you guys are supposed to be theadministrators, you're the
executives of the office, whatthe hell?
And Herb had the best answer.
He said Mr Director, I was onmy lunch hour.
Now, if I said it I would havegot my ass out in the hallway
(25:45):
and yelled at, but it was HerbRutherford.
Speaker 2 (25:48):
Out of coverage.
What?
Speaker 3 (25:50):
I know you had me.
Speaker 2 (25:52):
But that was I would have covered you.
Speaker 3 (25:55):
I know that, I know that for sure.
But very modest, you know, likethat'll never happen again Four
presidents in a row like that.
You know most of it is themarshal, because most deputies
and agents go through theirwhole career as line people and
(26:16):
there's nothing wrong with that.
I did that myself and and that,but it's a very unique
situation, you know, and justjust the way that he dealt with
the people in the courthouse,just the way that he dealt with
the people in the courthouse.
There was a couple occasionsthat I would piss off the judges
, you know, just because ofbeing a brash 29-year-old, and
(26:43):
he would go upstairs and say letme clean this up for you.
But all in all, it was reallyreally, really a good time and a
great boss that I had.
Speaker 2 (26:50):
And we've been friends ever since.
I mean, it's been a closenessto us ever since, both in the
country, out of the country,different assignments, different
places.
So he's like my brother yes,better than some of my brothers.
Speaker 3 (27:09):
I used to joke around I say, when we were there, it's
like Rutherford and Roach, it'slike a law firm.
You know, you could just put aplaque up outside the courthouse
, because that's how it sounded.
And, believe me, there was a lotof pressure.
Herb, you know that we had howmany judges were in that
building district court andcourt of appeals that they all
(27:33):
had their own little things thatthey wanted, you know, and you
had to balance that.
You had to balance that out.
But when we got into flagshipit was challenging.
We had a fantastic time becauseI just remember saying, you
know, we had a great man, howardSafer, who passed away.
(27:56):
He was the chief of the NewYork City Police Department, he
was the commissioner and he roseup and he was a role model, you
know, for everybody.
But at that point he had fullconfidence in us doing this and
allowing it to happen.
(28:16):
So, you know, some peoplethought we were crazy.
They said, oh, if you get 200people up there and they
recognize each other.
But you got to remembersomething there was no internet,
there was no cell phones, therewas no social media like today.
Now, would it work?
Today?
Absolutely not.
(28:37):
People would get hurt and thisand that, but we had the whole
operation spelled out.
Speaker 1 (28:44):
So it wouldn't even be considered.
Today They'd say get out ofhere, it's a logistics nightmare
100% right, herb.
Speaker 3 (28:52):
They wouldn't do that today.
Speaker 2 (28:53):
Yes, I don't.
The DC offices, I mean.
I'm sure they are veryprofessional and doing a fine
job, but it was a lot differentback then, a lot different.
Speaker 1 (29:05):
I'll go back to what you were saying before.
You know you face somechallenges, unique challenges
and stuff.
What was the most challengingpart of that job?
Speaker 2 (29:12):
Dealing with judges was challenging, but also I mean
, you know, dc can be a toughplace to work.
There were a lot of prisoners,and all the prisoners thought
they were bad.
We didn't back down fromanybody.
But so, I mean, as time went on, they developed a respect for
(29:37):
us.
They knew we were fair, weweren't going to abuse anybody,
but we weren't going to take anycrap either.
So that worked fine.
In fact, toby used to do someboxing too, didn't he?
Speaker 3 (29:48):
Well, I did wrestling .
You used to do some boxing too,didn't you?
Well, I did wrestling.
They had a guy we had a deputy,floyd Johnson who was.
He was huge and he went to theWorld Police Olympics and I said
he says I don't got anybody totrain with.
I said I'll train with you andI remember coming down from like
(30:08):
two hours of training with himand I had cuts on my face.
I had everything else and I'mdressed in a suit, you
understand, bruised up andwalking around Everybody's, like
what happened to you?
I'd go.
It was Floyd, it was him, itwasn't a bandit or anything like
(30:29):
that.
It was that.
Speaker 1 (30:33):
So what kind of situations would you have to
deal with, judges?
What would make it a difficultsituation versus a seamless
situation?
Speaker 3 (30:44):
I'll let you answer now.
Speaker 2 (30:45):
Judges.
Many of them feel that they'rejudges and there's, you know,
whatever they say goes.
So the majority of the judgesin the federal court there in
Washington DC were good, weregreat.
They respected us and what wewere trying to do and they were
(31:10):
going to be in our corner ifanything happened.
And I guess I remember alsoyears ago there was another
situation that took place andthis was at the Superior Court
in Washington DC.
The US Marshal's Office at thattime had the responsibilities
for the Superior Court, which isthe city court, as well as the
(31:33):
federal court, which is thedistrict court.
So we worked hard to ensure thesecurity of the judiciary and
the courts themselves, and itcould get pretty rough over
there sometime, and the courtsthemselves, and it could get
pretty rough over theresometimes, but all is well.
(31:55):
I like to think that we set thestage for a very professional
office and an office that woulddo whatever it took to get the
job done.
That's the way we handled it.
That's the way we ended updoing it.
We didn't turn down anyassignments or anything.
It could get a little dangeroussometime, but that goes with
(32:16):
the territory.
Speaker 3 (32:17):
Yeah, we actually had touch football games with
Superior Court and DistrictCourt and they were fun, because
you know, when guys play touchfootball it turns out not to be
touch football.
But we got the judges thatwould go to.
The judges would go to thegames, the federal judges, I
(32:39):
mean.
And what he was referring towith the boxing was it wasn't me
we had a young deputy who wentto the world uh uh, police
olympics and he fought and hewon the championship.
So so, as you know, john Sirica, who was the Watergate judge,
he was a boxer in the army and Iget a phone call you know, can
(33:01):
you send this guy up?
And Sirica said it was Mike,you know, and he goes like this
and he goes, let me see what yougot.
And I looked at him and I saiddo not hit this man.
This is God, do not hit him.
And the other one that he bailedme out on was we do evictions
(33:25):
in DC.
You'd go and after somebody.
It was kind of a sad thing, butyou had to place the evictee's
property on the sidewalk infront of you, okay, or across
the street.
I'm right, I think I'm right.
So we put that in a coupletimes.
Well, this guy calls in and oneof the supervisors is on the
(33:47):
phone and he, he says yep, okay,all right, listen, I know a
little bit about the law myself.
Okay, mr burger, and please, ifyou don't, if you have a
problem, talk to my chief deputy, tobias roach.
Okay, so I, I went off and Isaid I said no, you did the
(34:08):
right thing, you moved the stuffacross the street.
Well, herb Herb comes runningback.
He says I just got a call fromthe attorney general, the house,
that you placed the evicteestuff in front of it's Chief
Justice, warren Burger.
And, needless to say, I saw mytransfer in front of my eyes and
(34:30):
I said let's just move it downa couple things, a couple houses
down where we do this.
But yeah, so the big joke wasthat when the guy he's since
deceased retired, we got him atrophy and it says with a
justice thing on it, with agavel.
It said listen, mr Berger, Iknow a little bit about the law
myself.
(34:50):
Gavel.
It said listen, mr berger, Iknow a little bit about the law
myself.
Speaker 2 (34:54):
So those were some of the another thing too.
Yeah, another thing that uhhappened was, uh, I guess that
years ago, before the unitedstates marshals office in
washington dc handled it, was aseparate office, separate for
the Superior Court and one forthe District Court.
(35:15):
Well, one day I was assigned tothe Superior Court.
A deputy had a.
When you're dealing withprisoners, the policy was you
don't have a gun aroundprisoners.
Well, this deputy had obviouslyforgotten to take his gun off
(35:35):
or whatever.
But one of the prisoners stoodup in the chair in the courtroom
and the deputy went over to himand bent over, put his hand on
his shoulder to force him to sitdown.
But when he went bent over, hiscoat suit coat kind of slid
back and the prisoner saw thedeputy's gun.
(35:59):
He reached in the holster andpulled the gun out.
So you had Gary Noble andCarlisle Burch.
They're fighting him.
They got a gun up in the air,they're trying to disarm him and
(36:22):
he ended up dying in thestruggle.
So I mean, now the issue is youwere taught when you're that
close to prisoners you shouldn'thave a gun on you where they
could gain access to it.
So anyway that went down the waythat it shouldn't have gone
(36:44):
down, but the prisoner died.
They said the prisoner himself.
He died of a torn heart.
They said well, when you lookat Gary Noble and Carlisle Birch
, both of them weighed well over250 pounds.
So when they disarmed him inthe struggle, he passed away.
(37:10):
When they disarmed him in thestruggle, he passed away.
And you know, as is normallythe case, the Metropolitan
Police are going to have to do ahomicide investigation and all
that.
But it was ruled that.
You know they took the actionsthey had to take.
Unfortunately he died, but wehad our share of experiences
(37:32):
there.
I was blessed to have been insuch a great office as the
District of Columbia.
I just had some greatexperiences.
Speaker 3 (37:40):
Toby was one of those great experiences we had a.
It was a different time, likeyou know, I'm not going to say
we were like cowboys, because weweren't, but at the same time
we gave a lot of attitude.
A lot of attitude I meant notattitude, but you know the
ability to go out and do yourjob and do things and you know
(38:04):
we had some hairy incidents withdeputies there.
You know we beefed up thewarrant squad, which was a good
thing, because DC in the 80s wasthe murder capital of the
United States.
It was.
It was just a very violentcrack cocaine was hitting the
streets and different areas ofthe district and that.
(38:27):
So we went out and we had greatdeputies that worked with us
and they made a lot ofapprehensions, to begin in the
middle 80s, right when that wasstarting out.
So it was good we hadheadquarters looking at us every
(38:49):
day, because back then thelocal section of the Washington
Post was read by everybody, notlike today with your news is on
your phone and you've got themajor networks.
I mean you had things in theirinfancy CNN stuff like that, so
(39:10):
you didn't have it, so theywould get their news there and
they all liked to pay attentionto DC.
But no, his background wasterrific.
You know, I was never in themilitary.
You know I was kind ofdifferent.
I would come from Californiaand that Kind of different, I
(39:32):
would come from California andthat, and you know, it just was
a really really good combination.
And people noticed it, I thinkHerb all the deputies, because
they had had histories beforewhere the marshal didn't get
along with the chief or thechief didn't get along with the
marshal, and that hurts morale.
You know, that's the wholething.
(39:53):
That's how law enforcement issuccessful.
It's all about the morale ofthe people that you're working
with and that.
So when we did flagship, themorale was through the roof that
we did it and we kept it a bigsecret, which you know.
You say, how can you keep asecret in Washington?
Well, back then you didn't havethe social media.
(40:15):
You had tough reporters thatsniffed around the courthouse
but we kept that secret.
When we briefed the deputiesinvolved and they brought in the
SOG team, special OperationsGroup, the Metropolitan Police,
their SWAT team and everybody,nobody had a clue, right Hurt,
nobody knew what was going on.
(40:36):
They were in shock.
They were in shock.
Speaker 1 (40:39):
Because I saw the documentary, the 30 for 30
documentary, and so there waslike cameras.
You guys were shooting thatyourselves.
Where was that footage from?
Speaker 2 (40:48):
Go ahead.
We had some media.
The media was going to be there.
They wanted to take pictures ofit and that not only well, it
covered us, because if thecamera's there there's less
likely to be any abuses.
And you know, we weren't thereto kill anybody or unnecessarily
hurt anybody.
(41:08):
But having the media there wasa good thing a very good thing.
Speaker 1 (41:12):
So they kind of knew, but they had the good sense of
not spoiling it.
Speaker 3 (41:16):
No, there was only certain media that they broke
the story to and that was not atour level, that was at
headquarters and they wentthrough a vetting process with
that and they went through avetting process with that.
So we didn't have like, I mean,you can't keep a secret in
(41:38):
Washington.
I mean, you know, no matterwhat era it's been, you know
it's always politics and that,and we stayed away from that.
We stayed away from politicsand this and that, you know, and
just did our jobs.
You know.
But yeah, it's a good question,jeff, we very few people know
(42:01):
about it and the media was.
They covered it from from aboutthe second weekend or third
week when we we got a tremendousresponse and we realized that
we didn't have the personnel tocover this, because when you're
taking groups of 20 people up toa room and arresting 150 in a
(42:26):
period of an hour and a half,two hours, it's got to run very
quickly and all that.
So you know, it was the largestone-day actually three-hour
roundup, I think, in the historyof law enforcement that we did,
and you know it was very crazy,you know.
(42:48):
But yeah, anyway, it worked.
So I'm glad.
Speaker 2 (42:54):
Actually, it worked surprisingly well.
I mean, it was great.
But we ended up getting callsfrom other law enforcement
agencies around the world Wantedto know how did you all do this
?
How can we do it?
So you know, it was a lot ofinterest from, as I said, a lot
of law enforcement agencieseverywhere.
(43:14):
So and we shared, we hadnothing to hide.
We shared it with them, so itwas a good thing to do.
Another thing that we did in theoffice and Toby would remember
this is my sister was a teacherthere at a place called Smothers
Elementary School in WashingtonDC, and she called me one day
(43:41):
when she got home and said shesaid I need some help.
I said what's that?
She said so many of the youngboys, and it was an elementary
school.
She said so many of these youngboys in this elementary school
don't have fathers at home.
Is there something you all cando to present a male role model
(44:02):
for them that will help them?
I said, well, yeah, let me talkto my people.
I went and talked to one of mypeople.
He was a black belt karateinstructor.
His name was I'm drawing ablank, but who am I talking
about?
Toby, pj Adkins, pj Adkins.
Yeah, pj Adkins.
(44:22):
So I went and talked to PJ.
I said PJ, we need to start aprogram over at Smothers and
River Terrace Elementary Schoolsfor these kids over there.
He said let me give somethought, marshall, I'll get back
to you.
So he got back to me in a fewdays and said I think we can
create a problem and we're goingto call it LAD.
I said what will LAD stand for?
(44:43):
He said it will stand forlearning and discipline.
So we set that program up.
We would go over to the school.
Some of the deputies would goover to the school every week,
work with the young boys, andsometimes they would take them
to theaters or ball games orwhatever.
We had people from anothergroup in Washington DC called
(45:07):
Black Scuba Divers.
So they came over and did apresentation Black schools in
Washington DC.
But we just tried to doeverything we could.
Subsequently, within probablyabout six months, I get a call
(45:28):
from my sister again and shesays there's something else I'm
going to ask you to do.
I said what's that?
She says the girls in theschool said they want their
program too.
They want a program.
And she said we think you canname it LAS as opposed to LA.
So we started another programjust to address the needs of the
(45:50):
young girls there.
So I don't think any of that isstill going on, but it was very
worthwhile.
As my sister said, many of theyoung men there didn't have
fathers at home, so setting thatup was it helped us as well as
helping the kids and theteachers.
(46:11):
Everybody benefited from it.
I had hoped that they wouldcontinue it when I left.
I hope that they would continueit when I left, but I don't
think that it was not continued.
It takes some.
Maybe you know for me, as Isaid when my sister called me,
we both grew up in DC.
She was a teacher, but I felt Ihad a vested interest in trying
(46:34):
to help these young men andyoung girls interest in trying
to help these young men andyoung girls.
But if you don't have peoplethat are from there, it's less
likely that they're going totake the efforts to create these
programs and hang in there withthem and make them work.
We actually even had theAttorney General come over at
the time Toby, what was her name?
Speaker 3 (46:56):
Which one I was there .
I was there when Mies was thereand William French Smith.
It would have been after I leftto go to customs.
Speaker 2 (47:05):
This would have been a female, female attorney
general.
Yeah, I'm drawing a blank.
Speaker 3 (47:12):
Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2 (47:13):
But, but we, we, we did a lot of things I mean, it's
mean with those kids.
It was always a Christmasdinner that we would put on for
them and just anything we coulddo to try to keep them out of
trouble and give them a reasonto want to excel, and it worked
(47:35):
quite well.
I don't think it's stillworking now.
I don't think it's still goingthere.
I don't think it's still goingthere.
In fact, when I did end upleaving DC, I challenged the
person who replaced me not tolet it go by the wayside.
But for whatever reason, theydidn't feel that it was worth
their time.
Speaker 1 (47:54):
Hey, herb, I'm super interested in what you were
talking about in Cleveland whenyou had to go undercover and
wear a wire with the police.
Did that give you a lot ofanxiety, or were you pretty
focused on what you were doing?
How did that go?
Speaker 2 (48:13):
I was focused on what I was doing.
I just felt it was somethingthat I needed to do and what it
was.
We went on a.
We were after a fugitive.
We Mark Farmer, who was adeputy at the time, actually
went on to be an assistantdirector.
I think at some point.
Speaker 3 (48:30):
A fifth degree black belt too.
Speaker 2 (48:32):
Yeah, he ran toward the door and did a flying
sidekick to knock the door down,kick the door in, and we went
in, arrested a lot of the peoplethat had drugs there and stolen
merchandise and all.
And I remember I went backoutside standing outside and I
saw the police with TVs and awhole bunch of stuff they just
(48:56):
collected and I asked them Isaid what is this?
They said oh, it's all stolenmerchandise.
I said okay, well, then thenext day some of them came to me
.
Two of them came to me and saidhad an envelope full of money
and said this is yours.
I said I don't want it.
But then I ended up calling myboss, who called the FBI head at
(49:22):
the time, and the next day theysaid well, marshal Rutherford,
would you be willing to wear awire?
I said sure, I'll wear a wire.
So I wore that wire on thatcase and then about two days
later, as I said, my directorcalled me and said Herb, we need
to get you out of Cleveland.
Speaker 3 (49:39):
If I could comment on it a little bit, that was a
tough time in Cleveland.
They actually made a moviecalled Kill the Irishman and in
that movie there's a guy, DannyBoy Green, and he was going
around and he was bombing.
They would bomb the carsInstead of killing you, they'd
blow up the cars.
(49:59):
So we had a major mob trial.
And that's when I met Herb forthe first time in 82.
I was detailed out to Clevelandand we were protecting the
witnesses for the governmentagainst the organized crime
there, for the governmentagainst the organized crime
(50:20):
there.
So this ties into the sameerror that he ran into.
This bribery.
Bring back memories, Herb, butthat's how I—huh Bring back
memories of Cleveland.
Huh, those guys, yeah.
Speaker 2 (50:32):
Yeah, but it was a good—I had great experiences in
the Mars martial service.
Some of it was challenging.
I mean, after having did what Idid in the military, it was a
good thing for me.
I was blessed.
I was truly blessed.
Speaker 3 (50:52):
He's good on arrest too because, like when we went
out and we arrested the top 15on our lunch hour, we went and I
said, herb, I don't know DC, Iknow the back roads, but I can
drive too fast, too furioustoday, so we ended up getting
there with the traffic in eightminutes.
(51:15):
It was amazing, turn here, turnhere, and I'm like okay and
that, but no, and that's whatyou look at.
You look at the streetmentality, even at higher
management.
We've both worked with managersthat you wouldn't go through a
(51:35):
door with, I mean.
But the Marshal Service didn'thave very many of them where
they got bad reputations.
It was all about yourreputation and that, and that
was very clear with theprisoners.
They didn't mess with youbecause they knew and not that
they were going to get their asskicked, which occasionally you
(51:57):
had to do, and not that theywere going to get their ass
kicked, which occasionally youhad to do.
But if you showed the respect,then they showed it to you.
You had a professionalrelationship with them and it
was very, very evident in DC.
That's how it operated, becauseit was a high volume of
prisoners between Superior court, which is like their city court
(52:19):
, and the federal court and thenwe had we had orders that that
they had too many prisoners andwe had remember we had to take
them to lorton and we had to goto petersburg because the jails
were really overcrowded.
This was, this was the 80s, thiswas washington d.
I was there.
We could sit here and talkabout the Iran-Contra, you know,
(52:42):
which we dealt with.
That was really high profile,probably the, you know, very,
very divisive.
You know, like the water,there's stages in our history,
especially in DC.
They had Watergate, iran-contraand and who knows what the
future is going to be.
There's always been thepolitical trials but you had to
(53:04):
maintain your professionalism,no matter how you felt about
that person going in, and itcame from the chief judge and
her that anybody that was goingto grand jury care who it was.
If you were an administrativesecretary for the president or
(53:27):
whatever, you went in throughthe main entrance, you know
whether you had Secret Serviceprotection or FBI protection and
we dealt with that, you know.
And we also had high threatsthat we had on people.
Herb put in the first Deltabarriers that we had.
(53:49):
They didn't have Delta barriersin the courthouses but we had
that and we had put inbulletproof windows, you know.
So we had the Delta barriers.
Speaker 2 (53:58):
And a secure courtroom.
Speaker 3 (54:00):
Yes, all that was brand new to the Marshal Service
.
We were the test office forthat.
I won't mention the physicalfitness facility that we built,
because that wasstate-of-the-art at the time and
you know, thank God we had thebacking of the judges to do that
(54:20):
well I had caught.
Speaker 2 (54:23):
What happened was I had called uh my director his
name was stan morris at the timeand told him that I would like
to uh put in a fitness facility,and he said you know, herbert,
you've got uh the money in yourbudget, you can go ahead and do
it.
Well, we ended up putting in,you know, mirosana, whirlpool,
all the different weights andeverything, so it worked out
(54:45):
fine.
Speaker 3 (54:46):
I wasn't going to say it.
Speaker 2 (54:47):
But we named it after a man named Norman Sheriff.
Now Norman Sheriff was a deputyUnited States marshal who was
killed in Washington DC.
He was on an assignment and wasshot and killed.
But you just try to, as amanager in these places, you try
(55:09):
to leave the place better thanyou found it or enhance it based
on what you're able toaccomplish while you're there,
and Toby and I were blessed tohave been able to do a lot there
and I certainly think, and I'msure Toby would agree leave it
better than what we found it.
Speaker 3 (55:27):
Yeah, most definitely , most definitely.
It was a unique situation.
Speaker 1 (55:35):
Herb.
Before we let you go, beforeour time is up, I'd love to know
, based on your career and yourexperience as a marshal, like
we're sitting here 2024, right,we're recording this in May of
2024 what is?
Like the thing that concernsyou the most about where things
(55:55):
are in the world right now, andwhat is one thing that gives you
the most hope.
Speaker 2 (56:00):
What concerns me the most.
Well, I think that we're stillfinding or it's obvious, you see
so many occasions where policeare abusing prisoners, and I
think that's we can't maintainas law enforcement officers.
We can't maintain our integrityif we are going to carry out
(56:25):
some of the heinous actions thatsome law enforcement
administrators, chiefs or whathave you are allowing to take
place within their particulardepartments.
So I think that's what we allhave to get away from.
(56:46):
I mean, we have to, but itcomes down to management.
All of us have been inmanagement.
That's what it comes down tojust being a manager that's not
going to tolerate certainactivities.
Speaker 3 (56:59):
And what do you?
Speaker 2 (57:00):
think.
Speaker 3 (57:00):
Toby, I agree with you.
I come from.
One of the purposes of thispodcast is that we're doing with
the series is it's going tohave everybody on the criminal
justice spectrum, and I meanwe're going to have deputies,
we're going to have policeofficers, special agents,
prosecutors, defense lawyers,inmates released, people given
(57:25):
second chances that were liferswith you know, compassionate
release, innovative programs andthis and that, and some of the
people we have lined up, youknow, I think, are going to
clearly show this to the public,that it's a wide spectrum and
(57:46):
one of the things everybodycriticizes criminal justice, but
they don't talk about how tofix it.
You notice, you watch the TV,you watch CNN, fox News,
whatever you watch, and they'realways criticizing but there's
no remedies to any of this.
It's communication.
Speaker 2 (58:07):
Fixing it can come as an afterthought and you have to
kind of be ahead of the ball.
Speaker 3 (58:12):
Preventing Absolutely .
Speaker 1 (58:16):
You know that was.
I think it was a pretty greatway to end.
Yeah, yeah, great way to endAnything you'd like to mention
or shout out, or you know what'sgoing on with you over there.
Speaker 2 (58:26):
Well, I'd like to certainly mention again Senator
John Warner of Virginia, whoappointed me, or who nominated
me, to be the firstAfrican-American United States
Marshal in the state of Virginia, and he was a great man, a good
man, and I'm just honored tohave been able to to know him
(58:50):
and to serve in that position.
Speaker 3 (58:52):
Now what?
What president did you serveunder?
Let let everybody know.
Okay, nixon, I don't think we'dbe talking today.
Speaker 2 (58:58):
Did you serve under?
Let everybody know, okay,ronald Reagan twice.
Speaker 3 (59:00):
Nixon, I don't think we'd be talking today.
Speaker 2 (59:04):
No, no, ronald Reagan twice.
And then there was Bush Sr andthen Clinton, bill Clinton.
And after that, after I wasappointed by Clinton, everybody
predicted my demise because theywere saying, herb, you know,
you were appointed by theseRepublicans, you're not going to
get it again.
And I got appointed again.
So I was appointed by Clinton,everybody predicted my demise
because they were saying, herb,you know, you were appointed by
these Republicans, you're notgoing to get it again.
And I got appointed again.
So I was blessed, of course,when you got great people
(59:26):
working for you, greatleadership on your team.
It doesn't make sense to make alot of changes because you're
not going to get any better.
It's unlikely you're going toget any better.
Speaker 3 (59:37):
Yeah, I think that's a good note.
Thank you so much herb for yourtime, brother.
Speaker 2 (59:41):
See you appreciate it for your time.
Thank you for, uh, yourinterest.
Speaker 1 (59:45):
Okay, pleasure to have you too, have a great one
pleasure is ours thank you.
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