Ep 8: Vanessa Rojas - Healing In Prison Through Therapy and Mentorship

Join us in this powerful episode as we sit down with Vanessa Rojas, Evelyn Bazon-Pappa, and Damaris Ramos Hernandez, to explore their extraordinary journeys from the depths of federal incarceration to becoming beacons of hope and mentors for others. Vanessa's heartbreaking story of childhood trauma, addiction, and the struggles of single motherhood, including caring for a special needs child, sets the stage for an emotional and inspiring conversation. At FCI Tallahassee, Evelyn's mentorship provided Vanessa with the strength and guidance needed to turn her life around and seek a brighter future.

We take a deep dive into the transformative power of therapeutic programs such as Cognitive Behavioral Therapy (CBT), Dialectical Behavior Therapy (DBT), and the Residential Drug Abuse Program (RDAP). These therapies have been pivotal in helping Vanessa and others understand and manage their emotions, leading to meaningful personal growth and recovery. Vanessa's candid reflections on her past, from early gang involvement and drug trade to the soul-crushing moments of federal imprisonment, provide a raw and gripping narrative that highlights the complex interplay between addiction, crime, and redemption.

Our conversation also tackles the broader issues within the prison system, shedding light on the challenges of reintegration and the urgency for prison reform. Vanessa's advocacy work, driven by her own experiences and the promise she made to help others, shines a spotlight on the need for compassionate release and community support as essential components of successful reintegration. We conclude with heartfelt stories of resilience and the tireless efforts to support incarcerated women in Colombia, emphasizing the unyielding spirit of those fighting for change and a second chance at life. Don’t miss this episode filled with true stories of resilience, mentorship, and the relentless pursuit of redemption.

Produced by: Citrustream, LLC

Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:01):
Today for another edition of Justice Then Justice.
Now.
We have two very good gueststoday Vanessa Rojas and Evelyn
Bazon-Papa.
Vanessa is reaching out fromSan Diego area today and Evelyn

(00:24):
is reaching out fromBarranquilla, colombia.
Okay, and I'm glad they're here.
Ladies, nice to see you today,good to see you too Good to be
here.
I made it despite the rainstormtoday from Miami.
They let me on the plane.
Anyway, this is going to be aunique show today because these

(00:51):
two people know each other verywell under adverse circumstances
, but both of them have beenvery successful in getting out
of that situation and movingforward.
In getting out of thatsituation and moving forward.
I'll start with you, evelyn.
Evelyn and I have a history ofover 30 years now of knowing

(01:13):
each other in different timewarps I guess you'd call it of
that and I know her entirefamily and you've seen episode
one and there'll be moreepisodes on that also to talk
about.
And through Evelyn, I metVanessa, her over LinkedIn all

(01:44):
the time, and she is a professorat school and a mentor out
there and she is for advocacyfor the first step and second
chances of inmates in thecorrectional system.
She knows everybody inCalifornia that's trying to get

(02:06):
clemency, trying to get pardonedout there, and a very hard
worker.
And, more important, she's amother and she has a very dear
daughter to her that she caresfor constantly, daughter to her

(02:29):
that she cares for constantly,as every mother should.
And I'm glad to have both youladies here today and I guess
we'll start this out.
Evelyn's background.
We know she was a sentencedfederal prisoner, or inmate
rather, and she served 26 yearsin Tallahassee Federal

(02:49):
Correctional Institution.
And Vanessa also was a formerfederal inmate and she served
time, and I'll let her explainher situation.
And the two of them encounteredeach other at Tallahassee,
florida, not at a Florida Stategame, but at the institution

(03:11):
there, became friends and Evelynmentored Vanessa when she spent
a while there.
And I'll just leave it at thatand I'll let you talk first,
vanessa, if you could Let theaudience know your background,
where you came from, and move itforward until you met each

(03:34):
other and your knowledge in thefield is tremendous.

Speaker 3 (03:39):
Thank you, Toby.
I'm really grateful to be onhere and I want to thank you
again for inviting us.
So I'm not a professor.

Speaker 2 (03:48):
Oh, I'm sorry I thought you were.

Speaker 3 (03:51):
I'm just a student and I work here for Palmer
Community College in thepresident's office.
I'm also a rising scholar, so Iguess a little bit about my
background is I experiencedchildhood trauma at a very young
age.
So I was sexually molested at avery, very, very young age and
that kind of sent me on adestructive path which took me

(04:16):
down a very dark time intoaddiction.
So I got addicted to heroin andmeth.
So I got addicted to heroin andmeth.
During this time I just waslost and gave birth to three
kids.
My youngest has special needs.
It requires 24 hours of care.
I was involved in a like acycle that I could never break

(04:42):
free from.
And being a mother, a singlemother of the three children and
my special needs daughter, youknow that was kind of like it
was really hard.
It was hard.
I'm very grateful that allthree of them are alive.
I'm grateful that I have them.
You know they're all adults.

(05:03):
I'm grateful that I'm able tobe there.
They're all adults.
I'm grateful that I'm able tobe there, be present, and
they're seeing me sober now.
So I was in and out of jail for20 years I guess, maybe a little
bit longer.
I never really got offsuccessfully off probation for
county probation.
I ended up getting caught up ina federal indictment with 55

(05:26):
other defendants and I gotsentenced to 80 months in
federal prison and I was sent to.
I pled guilty.
It was a conspiracy todistribute heroin and I was sent
to FCI Tallahassee, which kindof was like something we weren't
prepared for.
So I was sent there and itpretty much was like one family

(05:56):
crisis after another.
I was on a lot of medication atthe time too, because I had a
diagnosis of schizoaffectivebipolar disorder which I believe
was all drug induced, because Inever really gave my brain time
to heal.
So while I was out there, thefirst year was probably the
worst year for me because I wasso far.
I've never been away from myfamily that long, not that far

(06:19):
away, and I pretty much sleptthe first year of prison just in
denial looking for a way to getcloser to home.
And I knew Evelyn because sheworked in the chapel and I spoke
with her a few times.
I would go to the service therea few times.

(06:40):
I kind of was like in a state ofsearching for a meaning for my
life, for why I ended up there,what I could have done different
.
So I spent like a lot of timereflecting on my past and my
choices and really doing a lotof introspection and, um, I got
off on my meds, which wassomething that I'm so grateful

(07:04):
that I was able to do, but Ikind of did it cold turkey.
So I went through a lot of likediscomfort but I had the
psychiatrist there was wasreally a good psychiatrist and
he encouraged me.
He was, he backed me up 100%because I was.
I was very transparent about mysituation and my goals and
everything that was going on.

(07:26):
So, like I said, I wasexperiencing one family crisis
after another and at one point Ihad lost all my faith and my
hope when I didn't think I wouldhave a family to come home to,
because every single member ofmy family was sick and my mother
was a primary caretaker of myspecial needs daughter and my

(07:47):
son had a cancerous tumor in hislung.
My oldest daughter had Gravesdisease and my mom was like on
her deathbed and I was workingin Unicor at the time and I was
in the back and I distinctlyremember this memory.
I was in the back because Icouldn't even be on the phone.
I was like devastated and I wascrying and I couldn't get

(08:07):
through.
It was a call center, so Icouldn't even get through a
phone call without crying.
And so I spoke to the um, thewarehouse manager, and I said
look, I can't even like put mein the shoe, whatever.
I just I can't work today.
And this is what's going on.
And I told her what washappening and she's like go, go,
sit in the back, take the dayoff.
And I was back there and I wasjust like crying, I couldn't

(08:28):
pull myself together because Ididn't have any hope.
You know, and this was maybeabout a year and a half, two
years into my 80 sentence spin.
So then Evelyn comes up to meand she just grabbed my face.
She just came up to me I'msorry, I'm going to get
emotional.

(08:48):
No, please do.
She grabbed my face.
She grabbed my face and shestarted kissing me on the cheeks
and she's telling me don't giveup, don't give up, whatever it
is you're going through, don'tgive up.
She's's like I've been here 25years and I still have faith and
I'm not going to give up.
And she's just encouraging me,encouraging me, and that really

(09:12):
like snapped me back intoreality and I'm thinking like,
wow, what am I crying about?
This lady's been here.
She's like I have a lifesentence, I've been here 25
years and I'm not giving up.
And I'm and I just snapped meback to reality and I'm thinking
like, wow, what am I cryingabout?
I'm going to go home someday.

(09:33):
And I saw, like I saw thingsdifferently from that moment and
I remember I had graduated RDAPand they moved me over to the
honor dorm, which was whereEvelyn was at, moved me over to
the honor dorm, which was whereEvelyn was at.
So, um, I think we justgravitated towards each other.
You know, um our faith.

(09:53):
You know, like I said, I hadlost my faith, but then
something happened while I wasin prison when, during that time
, um, where I had like aspiritual encounter and, um,
everything changed, everythingchanged.
And I know, I know like aspiritual encounter and
everything changed, everythingchanged.
And I know, I know, like it wasapparent to everybody that
something was different.
And I think, without likegetting into religion, because
this has nothing to do withreligion, this has to do with a

(10:17):
personal connection I have withGod and I think, once you
realize that there is somethingto believe in, it just gives you
hope.
And so it gave me hope and Istarted helping Evelyn with
things you know, emails and such.

(10:38):
And one day I remember that Iwent into her cell.
She wanted to talk and she toldme her whole, whole, whole life
story.
It was just me and her.
She brought out document afterdocument and she was crying a
lot and I felt like I had to bestrong for her and I think I

(11:04):
just knew, I just knew Evelynwas going to get out, I just
knew.
And so there was a lot ofprayer and fasting involved and
there was moments where thingsseemed hopeless, because I
remember she was so sure she wasgoing to get clemency from
Trump and I remember we watchedTrump walk out.
We watched him his last day inoffice.
We watched Trump walk out.
We watched him his last day inoffice.

(11:25):
We watched him walk out intohis new, I guess, residence or
not new residence, hisMar-a-Lago residence, and Evelyn
was devastated and we're likewhat happened, like what just
happened.
You know, they pretty much saidthat it was going to happen.
She was going to get clemencyand it didn't happen, it didn't
happen.
She going to get clemency andit didn't happen, it didn't

(11:46):
happen, she didn't get clemencythrough Trump and Evelyn was
devastated, and I've never, seenEvelyn.

Speaker 1 (11:53):
I know.

Speaker 3 (11:53):
I've never seen her devastated like that.

Speaker 1 (11:55):
I know the reason she didn't get clemency.
We've talked about that and itwas a very poor decision, not by
the president, but by somebodyunderneath him that lives in
your state.
I'll just say that I don't talkpolitics, but the person lives

(12:16):
in your state, okay, and we hada credibility problem.
All right, that's all I'm goingto say.
Go ahead.
I didn't mean to cut you off,but I wanted to be clear.

Speaker 3 (12:26):
It All right, that's all I'm going to say.
Go ahead.
I didn't mean to cut you off,but I wanted to be clear.
It's okay, it's okay.
So I just kind of had that likeknowing.
I just knew in my core thatEvelyn was going to get out on a
compassionate release.
And I remember telling her thatI said Evelyn, you're not
getting out on clemency, You'regetting out on compassionate

(12:47):
release and I'm leaving rightafter you.
And that's exactly whathappened.
I remember she came in toUnicorn.
She was so happy that theygranted her compassionate
release.
She was like dancing.
She was dancing and the wholecompound just celebrated that
dancing.
She was dancing and the wholecompound just celebrated that,

(13:08):
you know because if anybodydeserved that, it was her.

Speaker 1 (13:09):
Yes, I was sitting at a van for eight hours, so
waiting for that order to comethrough, okay my goodness yeah
go ahead, yeah and and she.

Speaker 3 (13:21):
You know it took a minute for for them to let her
go, you know, because, um, Idon't know what happened, but
that day that she thought forsure she was leaving, I remember
, like I remember, that day shewas a wreck of media outside and
they ended up releasing her,like in the middle of the night,
but we got to say goodbye.

(13:47):
We got to say goodbye and itwas during COVID, you know, and
it was one of the best thingsthat I've ever been a part of.
I'm so grateful, that's greatso grateful.

Speaker 1 (14:01):
She got to go to McDonald's too, so that was a
nice retreat.
Well, it's Well.
I wanted to talk about you,though I have a couple questions
Before we go back to your pastand the gang activity and the
smuggling.
What did you do to get whereyou are now?
Obviously, you went to FCITallahassee and you had a

(14:25):
religious experience, which Iunderstand, but what programs
turned you into?
You know, someday I'm going tobe out and I'm going to turn my
life around.
What was available to you as aninmate?

Speaker 3 (14:49):
you as an inmate, I think you know I took advantage
of all the programs there and Iwill stand by this 100%.
The programs that I benefitedthe most from were the ones that
were ran by the interns.
Like, obviously I did benefitfrom RDAP because I learned a
lot of things.
And and what?
What I realized was when you'reable to acknowledge something,

(15:10):
that's when you're able tochange it.
So not knowing that thesethoughts, these, these um
behaviors, these thoughtpatterns, without acknowledging
what they were, putting a nameon them, was got me to like
realize, okay, that's what it is, this is what's happening.
So I did benefit from RDAT, butthe most programming that I

(15:33):
benefited from were the onesthat were run by the interns and
that would have been like thecognitive behavior therapy, the
CBT, the DBT, anger management,emotional regulation.

Speaker 1 (15:45):
Can you go into that a little bit, because some of
the people aren't going tounderstand what each one of
these programs entails.
So can you give me a betteridea and our viewers?

Speaker 3 (15:57):
So, yes, so cognitive behavior therapy focuses, like,
on your thought patterns and itgives you tools and I can't
like exactly remember what it is, but I still I kept my books, I
kept all my books and I do alot of like follow up, reading
on it.
But, like the tools were like Iguess it's it's replacing a bad

(16:21):
thought with a better one, soalways being aware of your
thoughts and being in thepresent.
You know, and I think that'simportant, like mindfulness,
being mindful and always beingin the present, because I catch
myself, you know, worrying aboutthings that haven't even
happened yet.
You know, and, like with RDAP,it's about rational

(16:43):
self-analysis, so that it's allup here, everything's up here.
It starts up here and I alwaystalk about the three Cs that I
learned in RDAP is yourconditions, your cognitions and
your choices.
So your conditions, like theway you grow, grow up, your

(17:04):
surroundings, your environmentyou don't have control of that,
but that shapes your cognitions,that shapes your thought
patterns and then your thoughtpatterns affect your choices.
So when you're able tounderstand certain things appear
, it helps you make betterchoices.
So I I think cognitive behaviortherapy, a lot of the stuff that

(17:26):
has to do with, like yourcognitions, is what changed for
me, I guess, what helped me havethe awareness within myself
that I needed to know where itall starts.
It all starts up here, and andand the in the introspection and

(17:47):
the reflecting that I did.
You know, once I was able tograsp it all, then it all made
sense to me.
This is why I, this is why oh,okay, this is why this is why I
do this, this is why I do that.
So a lot of my time was spent,um, reading a lot of the
so-called self-help books, justlearning about myself.

(18:10):
So you know, the thing aboutprison for me was, before I got
there, I didn't know who I wasbecause I didn't exist, and when
I say that, because I was ashell, I was controlled by my
addiction.
So, in prison, getting clean,that was the only, probably the

(18:31):
only good thing was therelationships I made in prison
and the change that happenedwithin me was, um, I found who I
was.
I was able to have my.
I took my identity back, theidentity that was stolen from me
from a very young age myinnocence.

Speaker 1 (18:52):
I found who I was in prison it's very well explained
that they have these programsavailable.
They're very, very importantand you took advantage of it and
I commend you on that and andthat did you.
Did you grow up in the SanDiego area or did you come from

(19:16):
Mexico?

Speaker 3 (19:17):
I grew up in Vista.
No, no, I grew up in Vista,California.
My mom is from San Miguel,Jalisco, my dad's from Texas.
So I grew up in Vista.
I grew up not really happy.
I had everything I needed.
But you know, when youridentity is taken from you, you
start looking for an identityand things that don't really

(19:40):
serve a purpose in your life butdestruction.

Speaker 1 (19:44):
Did you know?
I agree with that.
And did you?
How did you get the first timeaddicted to narcotics?
How?
How did that happen?
Through a boyfriend or from apeer, or that?

Speaker 3 (20:00):
That actually, um.
So I used to steal my dad'sweed when I was really little.
I used to steal his weed, Iused to smoke his weed and drink
alcohol and then that led tojust hanging out with older kids
and you know, dabbling withmeth, dabbling with acid and
eventually heroin, which youknow, older boyfriend, that's

(20:23):
kind of what happened, okay, andhow old were you when this?
Started.
My first like true, trueaddiction started when I was 11.

Speaker 1 (20:34):
Okay, I got addicted at 11.
I know our audience is going tobe shocked with that because
usually it formulates juniorhigh school, but you would have
been in what, what?
Fourth or fifth grade back thengosh, I don't know.

Speaker 3 (20:48):
Probably, maybe fifth , sixth grade was when I really
started picking up still, that's.
That's in pre-junior high, youknow, and that junior high was a
full-blown addict at juniorhigh okay all right, and uh, was
alcohol involved with this too?

Speaker 1 (21:03):
or just narcotics?

Speaker 3 (21:07):
There was alcohol involved, but not like on a
daily basis.
It's just.
Whatever I could get my handson was what I was going to get,
what I was going to ingest.
So, like if we would go campingwith the family and friends in
the summer and there was beer inthe cooler.
We're still in the beer andwe're drinking it and we're
getting drunk okay, um, did youget involved with uh gang

(21:32):
activities?
we have talked previously and uhwould you explain how that came
about um, it was more of thepeople that I hung out with, you
know, and um, the father, mykids, um, it got more.
I guess I was more involvedonce.

(21:54):
Whenever he was locked up, Iwould get more involved because
he wasn't around, um, and justbecause he had, like, I guess,
status on the streets is whatpeople would call it, and so
people respected me because ofhim.
So when he got locked up and wewent our separate ways, um, I

(22:19):
had to, like, earn my way, Iguess, earn my own reputation, I
guess, would be a way to put itwithout having to write on his
reputation.
So, um, yeah, it was.
It was all drug related.
You know, everything was thestreets were not the same as
when I was younger.

Speaker 1 (22:40):
It was all about drugs and basically, okay, the
reason I and this show is goingto be about it's about firsthand
, it's not.
We don't have political talkingheads, we don't have
presidential appointees inWashington, we don't have people

(23:00):
that so-called know-it-allexperts, because they're not in
that.
So the reason I say this is I'mgoing to have on tomorrow the
special agent in charge who wasin Arizona about gang about
mostly about drugs and bordercrossings and another guest that

(23:23):
I'm going to have is an experton gangs who was the president
when she appointed US Marshal inSan Antonio and he was the head
of the gang unit there.
So you're inside with this.
I think will blend well withthat for the public to
understand that it starts outwith addiction and I think

(23:45):
you've pointed that out very,very well.
So when you were involved andwhen did your ex-husband go to
jail, was he your husband oryour boyfriend or the father of
your children?

Speaker 3 (23:58):
He was just the father, okay.
I mean so a lot of times, youknow, I think a lot of it it's
also because of relatives, youknow.
So you have relatives, so youjust are kind of born into it.
I guess in a way he, the fatherof my kids, started getting

(24:23):
more involved when he startedgetting arrested as a teenager,
um, but his thing was alwayslike he was the drug dealer but
he also was involved in gangactivity and those two things go
hand in hand.
And also, when you grow up inpoverty you're more susceptible
to getting drawn into that life,and as young kids you want to

(24:50):
prove yourself, so you are thefirst one to, you know, get
involved in the worst things toget a reputation.
And he was involved in a lot ofstuff at a very young age and
so Okay, how old were you whenyou had your first child.
I was 16.

(25:10):
So I was 14 when I met him.
Okay, I was 14 when I met him.
I was 14 when I met him.
We got together and I gotpregnant at 15 and had her at 16
.

Speaker 1 (25:20):
Okay, there's a pattern of abuse here with women
.
You know that's happened and itdoes that.
I mean I was, when I learnedthat Evelyn, you know she was
married at 14 and she had herkeen say after that.
That's just off the charts, youknow, and, and that people

(25:44):
don't understand that.
So you, you were, you were, youknow lack of a better word
enthralled in this lifestyle,along with your addiction, and
you brought up how it came about.
How did it get worse?
What happened after that, whereyou got the attention of law

(26:06):
enforcement?

Speaker 3 (26:10):
How did it get worse?
Meaning like what led up to theindictment, or yeah, yeah, how
did?
What was the indictment allabout?
You know?
You know what.
What got worse was my appetitefor the drug got worse.
So then I started gettinginvolved with people south of

(26:31):
the border and that just wasthrough mutual contacts, right.
But then my connections downthere got like pretty, it was
pretty crazy.
It was a pretty crazy time.
From what?
From what I can remember,because a lot of it there's
years where I don't remember alot.
A lot of it's a blur, a lot ofit's a blackout and I was doing

(26:55):
some pretty crazy things thatlike even now, when I think
about it, like what was Ithinking?
You know, I'm going to Mexicoby myself at three o'clock in
the morning and I don't evenlike, not even knowing where
these people are, just directedto go a certain place and I saw
a lot of things.

(27:16):
You know, I saw a lot of thingsdown there and and I don't even
talk about everything that I wasinvolved in, I don't talk about
and I probably never will, Iprobably never will, but it was
a pretty scary time but I just Ithought it was invincible,
maybe because, you know, whenyou're on drugs you just don't

(27:36):
think about the dangers and andum, I survived it.
You know, through the, throughthe grace of God, I survived
those things and um, it was, itwas that that's pretty much what
it was was my appetite for?
For the drug it wasn.
It had nothing to do with themoney.
It had nothing to do with themoney, it just had to do with

(27:58):
for me, it had to do with thehigh Just having enough drugs to
get high on.

Speaker 1 (28:04):
Yeah, when were you indicted and was it under the
conspiracy case?
Like you said, there weremultiple defendants a conspiracy
case.

Speaker 3 (28:18):
Like you said, there were multiple defendants.
Yeah it, I got indicted in 2017and I didn't even know I was
being watched by the feds.
Okay, I didn't even know likethat thought never occurred to
me.
Not, I mean, I I guess in a wayI always knew I was going to
end up in prison.
I just never in a million yearsthought I would get indicted
federally and end up in federalprison.

Speaker 1 (28:36):
Had you been in prison before?
No, just jail, just jail, justjail.
Possession charges Possession.

Speaker 3 (28:45):
You know the majority .
I have a pretty thick jacketbut the majority of those
arrests are all like violationof probations, um, so like um
being remanded back into jail tobecause I violated for dirty,
you know, and and I had, like Iremember, one time one of my

(29:08):
probation officers like this isyour 12th dirty, I don't know
what to do with you, 12 dirtiesin a row.
That meant like she let meslide 12 times and she's like I
don't even know what else to dowith you.
She's and she ordered me to goin front of the judge that day.
So from her, from her office, Iand this, this, I remember this

(29:28):
because I know this happened afew times.
I went from her office toreport to the judge and I'm
sitting there in front of thejudge and he's looking, you know
, at the file in front of himand he's shaking his head and
he's just like he looked at melike Mrs Rojas.
He's like I've never seen atoxicology report this alarming.

(29:51):
He's like I don't even know howyou're alive right now.
Yeah, I don't know how you'restanding up breathing.
He's like I have to put you injail to save your life.
He's like I hope you understandthat's what I'm doing, like I'm
trying to save your life, andthat happened a few times and um
, so this was in 2017 and wellthat time.

(30:13):
What I'm talking about that wasin 2015.
No, this is prior.

Speaker 1 (30:16):
I understand, and you were indicted where Out of this
Southern District of California.

Speaker 3 (30:24):
Yes, southern District of California.
The name of the indictment wascalled Operation no Worries.

Speaker 1 (30:32):
Okay, so you just came, you were sentenced, you
were in pretrial, and then youwere sentenced and surrendered,
or the marshals took you out toTallahassee.
How did that work, or BOP?

Speaker 3 (30:48):
Okay, so I went.
I got out on pretrial.
My mom put up the property tobail me out.
Okay, so she bailed me out.
I got out on pretrial.
My mom put up the property tobail me out.
Okay, so she bailed me out, Igot out, I got picked up by
pretrial, they took me straightto a program and then I was out.
I think it was 10 months and Ihad to report for sentencing.
And I reported for sentencingon October 10th, which happens

(31:11):
to be my mother's birthday.

Speaker 1 (31:12):
Oh boy, october 10th which happens to be my mother's
birthday, oh boy.

Speaker 3 (31:14):
And so, october 10th 2017, I reported for sentencing
and the judge sentenced me to 80months, which was the lower end
of my guidelines and I rememberhe gave me permission to hug my
mom, you know, and before theytook me back, and I have never

(31:35):
seen my mom that devastated inher life.
I, I, that look haunted me.
It still haunts me.
Um, when I hugged her, it wasthe most the look of utter
despair and and my, my worry wasthat my mom was not going to
survive my prison sentence and,um, that my, my special needs

(32:00):
daughter was going to end up inthe system.

Speaker 1 (32:03):
But that's not what happened my mother's still alive
by the grace of god and I'm all.

Speaker 3 (32:09):
Three of my kids are alive.
I'm'm a grandma now.
I have two granddaughters Wow.

Speaker 2 (32:13):
Great.

Speaker 3 (32:16):
But definitely Tallahassee.

Speaker 1 (32:17):
Grand babies.
Right, that's what Damariscalls them.

Speaker 3 (32:18):
Yeah they're babies.

Speaker 4 (32:20):
Grand babies, they're babies.

Speaker 3 (32:21):
Grand babies, what happened in Tallahassee, you
know, not just the good things,the bad things that happened.
There is kind of what put me onthis path of advocacy and
wanting to change policy is whenI saw how the system what it
from the inside.
When I saw how the system isfrom the inside and the

(32:43):
corruption and the gaps thatneed to be filled and the lack
of accountability on the BOP.
So, and these women that arestuck behind the walls, women
like Evelyn that are stuck therebecause of the sentencing
policies, women that arerehabilitated and are helping

(33:05):
other women that are stuckbehind the walls and have no
avenue to get out, their havebeen, you know, their.
Their clemencies have beendenied, their motions have been
denied and there's just no wayout for them and they're just
taking up space and when theycould be out here, out here,
making change happen out here.

(33:26):
You know it's very unjust andthat's kind of what put me on
the path to, you know, education.
And I just knew, I just knewthat just open that door, let me
out, and I promise I made apromise to God that I promise
you you get me out of here.
I'm going to make sure thateverybody that comes into my

(33:46):
path is going to benefit fromknowing me one way or another,
and that I'm going to somehowget in a place where I'll be
able to change the policy andhelp these women and men that
are stuck behind the walls, helpthem get out and keep them out.

Speaker 1 (34:01):
And so our viewers know Tallahassee is the maximum
security prison.
There are some really, reallybad female prisoners that are in
there.
I mean, you know you haveexamples like here that have
been rehabilitated and they'reout, but there are people that

(34:22):
should not get out.
I mean, I feel this is mypersonal opinion If you kill a
cop, you're gone.
If you're in there because youmolest children and they're
killed, you're gone and and that.
But it seems to me and you guyswere in the honor section,

(34:44):
which would you explain that alittle bit so our viewers
understand what the honorsection is?

Speaker 3 (34:52):
what the honor section is.
Evelyn, you want to take that?

Speaker 1 (34:54):
Damaris, go ahead Anybody.

Speaker 3 (34:57):
Somebody, anybody, both of us.
Okay, I'll share.

Speaker 4 (35:08):
The honor side was mainly for people that behaved
well inside the prison.
And, toby, I respect your viewand, even being on both sides
because, remember, I alwaysshare with you that my father
was a police officer for over 34years and I was also at the
same time I got in trouble whenI was young.
I ended up in prison, andthat's how I met Evelyn, and I
believe in the public'sprotection.

(35:33):
Okay, so I agree with your pointthat you're right, everybody
does not deserve to get out yesand the problem with the bop
modus operandi is because theyactually put all so many people
together with so many level ofsecurity and I always had a
problem with that and we were weinside.

(35:54):
I have one of my good friends,mark Farland, which you met over
the phone.
We created a program.
It was called the I Am Programbecause we wanted to help people
coming in.
That way, the people that werewaiting to actually pray on
these people would have thatopportunity to pray on the
people I always mention.

(36:15):
Remember inmates and convicts.
It's all two different things.
So I believe in crimedeterrence, but at the same time
, this is a major business andthere are real people behind the
four walls that should not bein prison for 10, 20, 15 years
life.
You know, I think the budgetfor the Bureau of Prisons is

(36:40):
like $50 billion.
They don't even invest thatkind of money in education in
the United States of America.
So, yes, inside the four wallsthey were the honor unit, where
people that behaved well wererecompensed and went in there in
different.
It was more rooms instead ofcubicles.
I mean, this didn't feel like ahotel either.

(37:03):
Right, because you're secludedin yeah, away from family.
They made a song called hotelcalifornia yeah, I always wonder
what that song meant, Becausemy Puerto Rican brain I'm like
what does that mean?
I grew up in the 70s.
Is that a ghost or something?
So the Eagles?

Speaker 1 (37:17):
Yeah, the first time I heard it I was like wait a
minute, what's this about prison?
And they said no, no.
And then I listened to thewords and yeah, yeah so the
honor unit.

Speaker 4 (37:28):
It was to allow people that behaved well, allow
people that behaved well put ina.
There were nicer rooms and wekept it very clean.
However, it didn't stop from.
Prison is a really bad place tobe, but at the same time, it
could be a place to save peopleokay, to save the public from
all these crimes that are beingcommitted, you know, but at the

(37:50):
same time, I love the fact thatwe're bringing these
conversations to the table tobridge the gap.

Speaker 1 (37:58):
Yeah, this is a criminal justice program.
It's, I think, at everybody'spoint of view and it has the
extremes on both and in between.
And when this was firstdiscussed with the producer,
jeff, we talked about this and Isaid no, no.

(38:20):
I know the cops, you know, Iknow the agents, but at the same
time I've learned about theinmates, you know, and I
understand that.
And so we're trying to create abalanced program where we have
not just one side or this, andthat we have everybody on here.
You know, and like today Idon't know if you've seen our

(38:44):
second episode came out withPaul Pelletier.

Speaker 4 (38:48):
When you sent me the message, I looked it up.
Didn't get a chance to listento it, but I did see his face on
the video.
Yeah, when you watch it, I willwatch it it's, uh, it's very, I
think, entertaining.

Speaker 1 (39:00):
You know, I've known him a long time and I agree.
I agree with that too yeah, ifyou, if you watch it you'll, I
think everybody will enjoywatching him, as the prosecutor
had the defense hat.
You know the stuff that he did.
He was a pioneer.
So uh with that.
But um no, I, I, I think it'sgreat you guys are here, because

(39:23):
there were problems intallahassee.
I know from listening toeverybody on what was there.
No, I know.
Probably, I know I know I'veheard the female point of view
from Amy from Dublin and whathappened there and the transfers
and everything.
So it's a learning experiencefor me too.

(39:45):
I was a marshal for eight years.
Yes, so I went to you know.
Well, now it's Supermax inColorado, but the one that was
in Marion Illinois.
I've handled the AryanBrotherhood, I've handled all
the prison gangs and everything.

(40:05):
So I think it's a goodconversation.

Speaker 4 (40:08):
And, if I may add, if you allow me, toby, one thing
that I learned is that they wereamazing staff.
They were really amazing staffin Tallahassee that we've become
friends with and I still talkto them even years out and one
what was the difference betweenthe amazing staff and the others

(40:32):
is that the amazing staffbelieved in people going into
the system as a totalinstitution for rehabilitation,
okay, and and they used theirtools given by the bureau of
prisons to to facilitaterehabilitation.
But then you had the ones thatjust wanted to punish the

(40:56):
inmates, and that is not theirplace.
You're there to just do yourjob right the protection and
safety and security but youdon't punish people because they
know you already punished.
You have a sentence and you goin there to do your sentence
right, to serve your sentence,and that was a major difference.

(41:16):
So I think the training that alot of the staff receive can
make a whole difference as well.
I saw people that were, youknow, going there and become
very rebellious for things thatwere done to them by the not so
amazing staff.

Speaker 1 (41:33):
For things that were done to them by the not so
amazing staff.
Yeah, I mean, I looked at itwhen I was an agent.
It was strictly professionalbusiness.
I didn't take any vindictive orjoy out of incarcerating
somebody or doing aninvestigation.
It was my job.
I mean, that's what I did did.

(41:57):
My job was to do that, and in acorrectional environment.
Yeah, you have to stop violencewithin the institution because
if it spreads like I remember inatlanta in 87 they had I think
it was 87, 91 they had the bigtakeover of the whole prison and
it was a bloody conflict, youknow.
But no, there should be.

(42:20):
No, there's a rule that Ialways had and I think a good
cop has when the cuffs are on,everything's over, that's it.
You know, if the guy's fightingyou, you defend yourself, but
when the cuffs go on, that's theend.
That's what I was trained under.
But let me go back and I'mjumping around because I have

(42:45):
three people that areexperienced and that's great for
the viewers.
For the viewers, when you cameto Tallahassee, you obviously
came from a different culture onthe border in California to
there.
I mean, was it a big change foryou, vanessa, coming from there

(43:09):
to, shall we say Redneck Land,you know.

Speaker 3 (43:16):
It was a culture shock for me.
So and that was the first thingthat I noticed, because I guess
, from what I understand,Tallahassee is considered part
of the Deep South People withoutsounding I don't want this to

(43:38):
come off as sounding mean, but Ithink the best way to describe
it it's just a whole differentbreed of of women put it that
way yes, um a different, adifferent breed of women.
It's not anything I was used to.
So in California, you know, Igrew up around Sureños, Sureñas,

(44:00):
Chicanas, Chicanos there's alevel of, I guess, respect
street code that we live by.
Forget it, because inTallahassee it's just, it's
different, it's different, oh mygosh.
So you know, you know what?

(44:22):
What immediately caught myattention about the institution
was the way some of the COsinteracted with some of the
incarcerated women.
It's like sometimes you wouldhear the conversations like
they're just kicking it on theblock.
I just really didn't care to beaccepted, though I was in a

(44:43):
place where you know what, Iwasn't wanting to make friends.
Really I didn't want to makefriends, I just wanted to get
through my sentence, my bid.
I was miserable the firstcouple years there.
Miserable, I wasn't goodcompany, I was just miserable.

Speaker 1 (45:01):
How many years were you incarcerated?

Speaker 2 (45:04):
Four.

Speaker 1 (45:06):
Okay there, and you had a compassionate release also
.

Speaker 3 (45:13):
Yes, Can you explain that?

Speaker 1 (45:14):
how that happened, yeah.

Speaker 3 (45:16):
You know, my case is not unique in any way, but it
has its twists and turns.
So I got the Second Chance Act,which was a year of halfway
house, but I also got the yearoff for RDAP.
I didn't ask for the year ofhalfway house.
It was just really weird, Ihalfway house.
It was like it was just reallyweird, I think, because I was, I

(45:37):
was keeping, I was holding themaccountable to a lot of things
without writing them up.
I was holding them accountableto a lot of things and they
basically I joke about thisbecause it's funny when I think
about it I had a notepad that Icarried around with me
everywhere and anytime I'd speakto a staff member, I would.

(45:58):
I would have my questions ready, like, okay, I'm going to go to
mainline, I'm going to speak tothe um CM what was it?
The CMC?
I'm going to speak to the CM.

Speaker 1 (46:08):
I have my questions ready.
What's the CMC is?
Is that like the SIS?

Speaker 3 (46:14):
No, the person over the case managers like the
person over the unit managers,the case manager.
So anytime I had a question, Ihad my notepad with me and I
would go up.
I had my questions ready and Iwould write down the date and
time and I would ask myquestions and I would write down

(46:42):
everything they would tell melike verbatim.
I'd write it down, all theanswers, and and if I knew they
were wrong I will.
I would like back it up withpolicy.
Well, according to programstatement.
Well, actually, you know, thisis what's supposed to be.
So I was holding themaccountable to a lot of things
because we were being lied toabout a lot of things and I
would always follow up with anemail.
But I was keeping a record ofevery conversation I had with
them, everything that washappening there.

(47:03):
I was keeping a record of it.
I never, really I never wroteanybody up.
I never wrote any staff memberup, because I know how
retaliation works.
I know what happens when you dothat.
I was about to say that upbecause I know how retaliation
works.

Speaker 1 (47:14):
I know what happens when you do that.
I was about to say that yeah.

Speaker 3 (47:15):
I don't.
I didn't write them up.
I wrote one incident up.
It was an incident, it wasn't astaff member, it was a
situation which I did write itup which we didn't get fed one
night during COVID.
They forgot to feed us becausethey were bringing the food to
us and they forgot to feed us.
So I wrote that up.
But that was the only thing Iever did.
I didn't write any staffmembers up.

(47:36):
I did, though I did write theinspector general.
I got some mail out to aninspector general, but I was
keeping a record of everything.
And so when I asked my casemanager, well, how much halfway
house time are you going to giveme?
He's like well, we're going togive you the whole year, because
we're trying to get rid of youas soon as possible.

Speaker 1 (47:56):
And I took that.
I knew that was coming.
Yes, right.

Speaker 3 (47:59):
Like I took that like okay, well, I must be doing
something right Because womenhere beg for a year of halfway
house.
They beg for it and you willhear them in there like stroking
the case manager's ego to tryand get them.
I wasn't going to do that.
I wasn't going to strokeanybody's ego or kiss anybody's

(48:20):
behind to get it.
So that was handed to me, thatthe year of halfway house was
handed to me.
Now I had wrote a letter duringCOVID.
So so what happened was I wrotea letter to fam families
against mandatory minimumsduring COVID, asked just telling
them my situation, that I feltlike I was a candidate for

(48:41):
compassion release, never heardanything back.
So when, during like the GeorgeFloyd thing during COVID, when
just the nation was justshutting down like the mail
system was getting disrupted,there was like protests, there
was all this stuff happening andI just knew that I had to get

(49:03):
this compassionate releasemotion in front of this judge.
So I hand wrote mine.
I hand wrote it because theydidn't even like this lockdown.

Speaker 1 (49:11):
This is the same judge that was hard nose at
sentence you yes.

Speaker 3 (49:14):
Okay, yes, go ahead.
The same judge.
I hand wrote my motion.
I even spelt some words wrongbecause I didn't have like a
dictionary or anything, noaccess to law library, nothing,
because all the computers were.
We weren't allowed to leave aunit.
So, and the stamp situation wasanother crisis.
They were running out of stamps, the store didn't have stamps.

(49:37):
So I was in a hurry to get thismotion out because I knew that
the country was shut down.
Um, the courts were not liketaking in people from the public
.
They're just doing some weird,I guess, online courts and stuff
.
And, um, I I mailed that motionout just in faith that, hoping
and praying that it was going toget to my judge.

(49:58):
Now, remember, I said I hadwrote a letter to FAM.
So I'd never heard anythingback from FAM.
So then I still hadn't got myhalfway health state yet.
So this was during.
Covid hadn't got my halfwayhealth state yet.
So the government responded, ofcourse, denying my motion or
opposing it, opposing it.
And then the judge replieddenying my motion because he

(50:22):
said I didn't exhaust myadministrative remedies, so, but
he left the door open for me torefile.
That day that I got a denialfrom the judge.
I just kind of like you knowwhat, I'm just going to do my
time.
I'm just going to do my time.
I'm kind of just done with thisand there's so many other
people that need help and I knowI was helping Evelyn, I was

(50:43):
helping a lot of the other womenthere with their like
administrative remedies, withtheir emotions and stuff like
that, and so I just left italone.
That same night I got calledback to get some legal mail,
which was a letter from anattorney who BAM reached out to
and she agreed to take on mycase pro bono.

(51:04):
So she filed a compassionaterelease motion.
It sat on the judge's desk fornine months.
So during that time that's whenI got my halfway house time so I
was already out the door theyflew me to San Diego.
I checked into the halfwayhouse and then my daughter, my
oldest daughter, ended up in thehospital like almost dying.
And that was when I'm like whyis this judge not letting me go?

(51:29):
Like he's still sitting on mymotion?
I'm already halfway out thedoor.
So I called my attorney.
I'm like look, what can we do?
My daughter's in the hospital.
She's going to have emergencysurgery tomorrow and she's like
well, it's not going to hurt tofile supplemental motion, so let
me just get that.
And then I, at the time, thehalfway house was not allowing
us to visit or leave or doanything like that other than go

(51:52):
to work, which made no sense tome, because they don't want us
to have any social visits, butthey want us to take public
transportation to work.
This is during COVID lockdown.
That was their excuse.
So I went and I spoke to theperson that was in charge there
at that night.
He was nobody liked him.

(52:13):
He was another tough one,another one like that was really
mean.
So I worked up the nerve totalk to him.
I got in the med line.
I didn't take meds, but I gotin the med line because I knew
he was in the room and I wantedto get him alone.
I didn't want to ask in frontof anybody, but I was gonna tell
him when I got, when I he gotto me, I went in there.
I said look, I don't.

(52:34):
You know I don't mess around,I'm not, you see me.
I don't get in trouble, I'mabout, you know, getting through
, I go, but I need your help.
It took everything out of me totalk to this man, cause he was
a type of person that hewouldn't even look at us in the
eyes.
He had so much disdain for usand he treated us that way.
So I looked at him.
I'm like I need your help.

(52:55):
And this is what's happening myoldest daughter's in the
hospital.
She's going to have emergencysurgery in the morning and I'm
about to get an escape chargebecause I need to go see her.
I don't know if she's going tomake it out of surgery.
Please, please, help me.
If not, I'm leaving and I'mletting you know.
Twice they let me out to seeher twice, which I'm very, very

(53:22):
grateful that I was able to bethere for her.
So the judge ended up giving mea compassionate release because
of that supplemental motion.
So I did get a compassionaterelease and I had to serve out
the remainder of my sentence onhome confinement, which was fine
.
I got my compassion release andI thank God for FAM, I thank
God for my attorney and justeverybody that's helped me along

(53:46):
the way.

Speaker 1 (53:47):
Yeah, that's amazing.

Speaker 4 (53:49):
Amazing.

Speaker 1 (53:50):
It is.
It is, and are you going towork towards your clemency now?
Is that the next goal that youhave, vanessa?

Speaker 3 (53:59):
Well, my next goal is I'm filing for early
termination of probation.
So that's in the process.
Right now I'm filing for earlytermination of probation.
I think I've done above andbeyond what has been required of
me on my conditions ofprobation.
I do so much that the publicdoesn't even know about.

(54:20):
I know, you see what I post onLinkedIn and Facebook and
Instagram.
I do so much more that I don'teven like share with everybody.
I go above and beyond, and notjust because it's just my
passion.
It's just my passion.
I think my calling in life isto be a vessel and just to help
people.
So I'm trying to get off early.

(54:42):
Once I'm off early, Idefinitely am going to be filing
for a pardon eventually.

Speaker 1 (54:48):
Good, okay, it's a great story, it's not a story,
it's reality.
Okay, and I don't think peoplerealize this, you know.

Speaker 4 (54:59):
You know, what I love about her story is the
resilience and her just notgiving up, and I think it was my
experience A lot of women.
They just gave up.
Women are different than men.
We're not made to be so toughlike that and I saw so many

(55:24):
women with depression.

Speaker 1 (55:25):
Really they're not?

Speaker 4 (55:27):
Oh well, don't look at me like that because I know
exactly what you're trying tosay when you look at me like
that.
No, I'm laughing.

Speaker 1 (55:33):
I'm laughing.
Stop it, Toby.
Jeff, don't put this on.
I've had two Hispanic ex-wivesand they were really tough.

Speaker 4 (55:39):
Okay, but maybe your definition of tough is not the
same definition of tough.
I remember when I first went tothe county jail when I was
really young, they didn't evenhave panties for women, so if
you were on your cycle youcouldn't even have panties.

Speaker 1 (55:57):
The men didn't use them up, right.
Well, because initially thesystem that's, well they.
Because initially that's a badjoke.

Speaker 4 (56:02):
He's laughing at me the system you know, back in the
days, I'm pretty sure, when youwere in the in the system,
there were not a lot of womenincarcerated.

Speaker 1 (56:13):
You know, the system was never really built for a
woman no, you know, you had toget a matron to sit there all
night, that's right.

Speaker 4 (56:20):
So it has taken a long time for the system to
evolve and I worked with.
It was a parenting class and Idid that for four years.
I was very, very, very muchinvolved in the community.
When I was in Tallahassee, Iworked with a lot of staff

(56:40):
because I was bilingual andthere were a lot of women from
South America and everywherethat didn't speak the language,
and I can share that withVanessa and Evelyn we love
people we love to help people.

Speaker 1 (56:54):
You obviously had very good instructors in
Tallahassee that taught womenthat didn't speak any English
how to speak good English.

Speaker 4 (57:04):
That's right.
And then and I'm funny too-We'll talk after this, and so
the point is you know herresilience.
I think it was amazing.

Speaker 1 (57:18):
No, it is.

Speaker 4 (57:19):
And I saw so many women just give up and they were
just so depressed, the despairI have never.
I think I've never been aroundso much despair in my life Like
the depression.
People will walk around and youcould sense that darkness and

(57:41):
it's just whatever they carried.
And when I worked with she wasa community leader in
Tallahassee.
I worked with her for fouryears and we would do a lot of
assessment and in our classes of20, 30, or 40 women, the amount
of children between all of themwill add up to sometimes a

(58:03):
hundred.
Like how in the world can youhave that amount of women with
that amount of biologicalchildren?
Okay, and who takes care ofthose children is usually the
parents, the grandmother thegrandmothers I know that I I
know my pocket says it right nowwe're all for and and and.

(58:30):
So do they have resources tohelp woman?
I think they do.
Can they have more and do more?
Definitely, because most ofthis woman, at some time in
their life, will be releasedback to society.
We can be your neighbors, right, okay, we're friends, right,
and it will make a wholedifference in going back to

(58:52):
those children and raising thechildren and breaking that cycle
of incarceration and recidivismand gosh, we can talk about it
all night.
So I definitely commend youknow, vanessa.
I have never heard her storyfully and I'm just thinking

(59:13):
about how resilient.
I can't even imagine how thestaff will react and that's what
I thought.
I'm like they gave her thatwhole year of halfway house
because they wanted to get ridof her.
Like, oh my god, here she comesagain with the pad and she's
gonna write it down.

Speaker 1 (59:26):
I can't even see that what she's saying and I can
follow this.
You wore them down.
That's exactly what happenedyeah you wore them down.
And the same thing with your,same thing with your uh release.

Speaker 4 (59:40):
Yes, amazing.

Speaker 1 (59:41):
That's a wild story.
No, I've seen your work and inthe short time I've known you,
it's very commendable.
You're in a state that Iwouldn't want to live in
personally, okay, and I think,without saying why, I just like

(01:00:04):
it here in sunny Florida.
Um and that, um, okay, do youdo you?
Um, you're still you're, areyou still on?
Are you still on parole orprobation, or is that done?
I wasn't following that.

Speaker 3 (01:00:24):
I'm still on federal probation.

Speaker 1 (01:00:25):
For how long?
How much longer.

Speaker 3 (01:00:28):
I have about four years left, I believe a little
less than four years.
So I got sentenced to 80 monthswith six years of probation,
federal probation.
So I have that much time left.

Speaker 1 (01:00:41):
Are they letting you cause you're at VC work, are
they?
Are they allowing you to traveland and do that?

Speaker 3 (01:00:48):
Yes, I actually have a really, really supportive
probation officer.
I've been blessed.
I've been so blessed in so manyways and I thank God for that.
I have a really supportiveprobation officer who approves
because she knows what I'm about.
You know, and I think I, I, Iget offended when, when my

(01:01:11):
integrity is being questioned.
So I have enough with withprobation, right, and so that's
what it was in the beginning,because they didn't know me.
You know, so they know that I'vebeen so consistent that she
doesn't question my integritybecause I'm so straightforward
with them and and she knows whatI'm about, you know, and, um, I

(01:01:32):
have so much proof of what I do.
You know, like, like, when Iwent to um seek an attorney to
file to get off probation early,I went there ready with
everything I needed and I hadpictures to prove it, I had
awards, I had certificates and Ijust sat there we're in this

(01:01:53):
conference room and I'm like,look, you guys represented me on
my compassionate release.
I thank you for that, but thisis why I'm here.
I want to file early becauseI've done this, bam, I thank you
for that, but this is why I'mhere.
I want to file early becauseI've done this.
Bam, I threw a picture down.
I met this senator.
Bam, I threw a picture down.
I've been here.
I've been there.
I presented at this conference.
I'm doing this.
I had like a whole pile of stuffto show him and his eyes just

(01:02:14):
got really big and he's justlike, I mean, for a good 45
minutes.
I'm just talking about all thestuff I've done since I've been
out.
I've been out two and a halfyears and every week I have
something new to like add.
Okay, well, this is what I didthis week.
This is what I did, this iswhat I'm doing, this is what's
going on.
And he was just like, wow,he's'm gonna beg my supervisor

(01:02:38):
to take your case.
He's like this is why your caseis why I do what I do.
This is the reason.
And he's like I.
He was just so impressed andit's not that I was trying to
impress him, I was just showinghim look, this is what I'm doing
, this is why I need to get off,because now probation is arance

(01:03:00):
, because I can't always getahold of my probation officer to
ask to travel outside of thecounty, you know, and I have to
ask for permission, I have tosubmit a form, and sometimes
she's gone wherever they go fortrainings for, sometimes up to
weeks.
So and I'm not saying it's herfault, you know it's, it's her

(01:03:20):
job she, she's not always goingto be there, but sometimes I get
last I have to do like lastminute requests to travel for my
job, and so I don't always getthose approved.
So now I'm getting asked to goto other parts of the world now.
So I've been asked to go to theUK, I've been asked to go to
Australia to speak, and now thisis now.

(01:03:42):
This is just cut me loosealready.
You know so, god willing,that's going to happen soon too.

Speaker 1 (01:03:51):
How long have, how long have you been drug free?

Speaker 3 (01:03:56):
I'm going to so my.
My clean date is going to beNovember 9th.
It'll be seven years.
Okay, so I got over six years.
Seven years, this is thelongest since I was 11.
Okay, the longest.

Speaker 1 (01:04:11):
Okay, that's great, that's great.
Evelyn, you're too quiet, Ijust.
I think the grand, grand babiesare in the background.
It's obvious that you're you'replaying the role of grandmother
and doing this stuff.
So yeah, we need to bring her.

Speaker 3 (01:04:32):
We need to bring her to the us.
Well, I think it's time.

Speaker 1 (01:04:35):
I think there's a good chance that people will
support that you know and that.
So I mean she had anotherbirthday yesterday, so you know
that's you know she's trying tocatch up to somebody that's
close to 70.
But we won't talk about that.

Speaker 3 (01:04:54):
You know, when Domides right now was talking
about the despair in prison, youknow the hopelessness, the
despair.
It just brought me back to thatmemory of that moment.
When Evelyn came up to me, whenI was in that moment of despair
, when she just was holding myface and kissing me on the cheek

(01:05:17):
, telling me not to give up.
That is what I needed to getthe fight back in me.
That moment was so pivotal forme and that's why, like Evelyn
is just part of my heart.

Speaker 1 (01:05:33):
She always will be okay well, I'm glad I was able
to reunite everybody here.
I mean, you know the technology.
Thank God for Jeff.

Speaker 2 (01:05:42):
I know right.

Speaker 1 (01:05:43):
Yeah.
You know, he knows what he'sdoing with the podcast business.
And I got to give a shout outto Beth too, of course, because
you know she's a straw thatstirs a drink with this
operation is a drink with thisoperation.

(01:06:05):
We interviewed the head of DEAin Mexico City, in Bogota, the
other day.
I worked cases with him back inthe early 90s.
An amazing person, and he seemsto really fear the border now
with fentanyl coming in.
It's the worst drug of all time.
And the laxness I mean you canput something in china, ship it

(01:06:26):
to mexico, disguise it and justbring it in and kill people.
That's what it does.

Speaker 4 (01:06:31):
It kills people, okay the statistics over 125 people
are dying of fentanyl, everysingle day.

Speaker 1 (01:06:41):
Lakeland, florida.
That's the population of that.
So I'm hoping that they I'm aconservative guy, I am, and I
hope we get back to theinterdiction that we had and
everything else.
And you know that we had andeverything else.
And you know, I found, in doingthese interviews and the future

(01:07:02):
ones that have respondedpositively to me, they realized
that I was doing my job and if Ihad to do it again, I'd do it
the same way.
You know, and you know, like Isaid, everybody deserves a
second chance, except for thecategories that I laid out for
you before.

Speaker 4 (01:07:22):
You know, and hopefully we get this, this
message across, because I seetoo much in the media now where
you're either on one side or theother, exactly you know the
criminal justice system and youknow I'm glad you bring that up
because that's why I'm alwayslike really behind the scenes
and I've talked to you about itbecause I believe, strongly

(01:07:45):
believe, in crime, deterrenceand the safety of the public
right, because I have children,I have grandbabies, but we lost
that balance.
You know you have the peoplethat were released from prison.
I've heard so many of them justbash law enforcement and talk

(01:08:06):
so bad about the system and thenthe other way around and you
know this is not to bring anycontroversy.
We're trying to bridge the gap,have the conversation so we can
have just programs andsolutions for the real issues
that are really in our backyardnow.

Speaker 1 (01:08:27):
Oh yeah, they gotta be solved, they have to be.

Speaker 4 (01:08:29):
They have to be, for example first, we have to
definitely.
And, like you say, you'reconservative and I'm a
conspiracy theorist, right, so Iam a conservative as well.

Speaker 1 (01:08:38):
I know you are.

Speaker 4 (01:08:39):
And in the border.
We definitely have to secure aborder because all these drugs
that are getting into thestreets right now but at the
same time we don't have enoughdrug programs.
Now you have to have money, youhave to have insurance.
There's not really hardly anyhomeless shelters.
So we have a major drugaddiction in society right now,

(01:09:05):
but there are not enough answersthere either.
So it works both ways.

Speaker 1 (01:09:09):
So this is amazing.
It's this demand here in theUnited States that's a big
problem.
That's why the drug cartels arein business, because the demand
is so high here in the US.

Speaker 4 (01:09:22):
It is.

Speaker 1 (01:09:23):
It's what it is.
It's just off the charts now.

Speaker 4 (01:09:27):
Never.
There's no other part of theworld where there's so much drug
consumption.

Speaker 1 (01:09:32):
No, no, and we've been the leader for almost 60
years now with that, you know,over and over.
But the borders, I I thinkeverybody would agree that you
know that that needs to besolved pronto.

Speaker 4 (01:09:49):
I mean very much, very much, so you know now I I
heard um somebody sayingsomething about, um, this being
a, um, like, um, something thatis done on purpose to weaken our
society, and I've, I look at it, I'm like, well, maybe it's not

(01:10:10):
, but maybe it is like, I don'tknow right we'll find out so
much going on that you're likeis this on purpose, we'll find
out.
Right.

Speaker 1 (01:10:20):
We'll find out very soon.
I just, you know I retired fromICE.
Okay, so I'm not going to beimpartial.
You know I'm a retiredsupervisory special agent with
ICE.
I think you know where I standon how to solve the problem.
Okay, I think you need to builda few things.

Speaker 4 (01:10:41):
You know what I'm saying.

Speaker 1 (01:10:42):
And that's unfortunate.
But we have to.
We have to screen people comingin, we have to make sure that
we're not letting terror.
What I think is the big thingis terrorism, you know what's
terrorism going to be like?

Speaker 4 (01:10:58):
No, any kind.

Speaker 1 (01:10:58):
Domestic and international.
You know that's terrorism goingto be like no any kind domestic
and international.
You know that's the whole thingwith it.
But I'm so glad you came on,vanessa, because also I look
forward to.
She's made referrals on peoplethat I think will be fantastic
to discuss.
You're a very trusted personwith all of them, otherwise they

(01:11:22):
they wouldn't, and you'vededicated yourself, in other
words, they wouldn't come onhere.
So I think that in the shorttime that you've been out and
that your goals and ambitionsare very, very, very positive.
You know and I would tell you Idon't know what kind of

(01:11:45):
relationship you had with theagents that worked your case
Maybe you should reach out tothem too, because they can only
help.
Okay, because I have a couplepeople coming on that males that
received life sentences andtheir agents supported them
years later.

(01:12:05):
You know years later, you know,like 30 years later, they
supported them.
So maybe something you and Ican talk about in the future.

Speaker 3 (01:12:15):
We'll see.
We'll see, I'm always open fora conversation, even if it's I'm
just open.
I'm open for the conversation.

Speaker 1 (01:12:24):
No, no it probably will be a good conversation now.
Maybe back then it wouldn'thave been a good conversation.
I always kid around with Evelynbecause she didn't speak
English back then, but Iunderstood Spanish.

Speaker 4 (01:12:44):
I can't imagine what she probably just mentioned your
name, from the A to the C tothe B.

Speaker 1 (01:12:54):
I'm sure it was a different tone in 1995.
Way different.
But anyway this has been great.

Speaker 4 (01:13:02):
I'm glad, I'm so glad I made it Toby, because I was
stuck at work.

Speaker 1 (01:13:07):
You're a workaholic.

Speaker 3 (01:13:09):
I know she's very tired.

Speaker 4 (01:13:11):
Well, I remember.
I'm a sales manager, so I haveto be there.

Speaker 1 (01:13:16):
Heavy is the that wears the crown right, gotta
wear it.

Speaker 3 (01:13:22):
I'm coming to Florida in October looking forward to
seeing you.

Speaker 4 (01:13:26):
Then I'm going to come to San Diego.

Speaker 1 (01:13:29):
I have a friend that was a police officer he's going
to be on.

Speaker 4 (01:13:32):
He's the one that trained me in 1976 that was a
year after I was born, toby, Iknew you were going to say that.

Speaker 1 (01:13:39):
I knew you were going to say that 1976.
That was her year after I wasborn.
Toby, what I was born, I knewyou were going to say that I
knew you were going to say thatand he lives in Carlsbad and I
go out every year to see him andI haven't been out yet, but we
were talking Vanessa and I'mgoing to go out.
I love it and he's a realcharacter.
You'll just love him when he'son.

(01:14:03):
He was a disc jockey cop.
He was different.

Speaker 4 (01:14:08):
So he would play like bad boys.
Bad boys, what you gonna do?
No, no, he played that.
He played like doo-wop.

Speaker 1 (01:14:15):
Okay, you know what doo-wop is in New York?
That's the street corner stuff.
So you know he played that kindof stuff.
You know what doo-wop is in NewYork?
That's the street corner stuff.
So you know he played that kindof stuff.
You know he's still got thesame.
Oh, if he hears this, he'sgoing to kill me Same hairstyle
that when I met him.
You know, wow, yeah, yeah, he'swaxed.
Fonzie, remember Fonzie?

Speaker 4 (01:14:37):
From Happy Days.

Speaker 1 (01:14:38):
Yeah, that kind of hairstyle.
I've had the same hairstyle too.
You know I watched Saturday.
No, I had a mustache in the 80s.
But you know I saw SaturdayNight Fever with John Travolta.
Nothing changed.
Nothing changed at all.

Speaker 3 (01:14:54):
He was the coolest guy back then.
Oh he was.
Everybody wanted to be him inthe Fonz.

Speaker 1 (01:15:02):
Yeah, he had to be trained to dance though I think
I'm a hopeless cause, you knowbut he went with Denny Terrio
and trained him how to dance forthat interesting movie.
So yeah, but anyway, thank youso much ladies.
Thank you, vanessa.
Happy birthday Evelyn.
Happy anyway, thank you so muchladies.
Thank you, vanessa.
Happy birthday Evelyn.

Speaker 4 (01:15:22):
Happy birthday.

Speaker 1 (01:15:23):
Thank you Happy 29th, that's when I met her.
No, she was 31.

Speaker 2 (01:15:28):
Wow, 36, 36, 36.
No.

Speaker 1 (01:15:31):
I met you when you were younger than that.
Wow, I think you were 32, 33.
And Vanessa, good luck withyour family.
Is your mom still alive?
I forgot to ask you that.
Yes, yes, my mother's stillalive.
How's she doing?

Speaker 3 (01:15:44):
She's doing okay.
She's 81.
She's doing okay.
I want to say she's not doingthe best, but she's hanging on.
My daughter's still there.
All my kids are there, you know.
So we're just, we're not.
I wasn't prepared to deal withtheir trauma when I got out, so
we're learning to coexist rightnow.

(01:16:07):
I love my dysfunctional family.
I love them and we're workingthrough some stuff.
But before we say goodbye, saygoodbye.
Before we say goodbye, I dowant to mention that we are
really going to be I myself andI know, evelyn.
We have some girls that werevery dear to us in Tallahassee

(01:16:38):
Gloria Palacios, who wassentenced to 40 years, rita Peek
, tiffany Arnold.

Speaker 2 (01:16:42):
Starlet Kaiser.

Speaker 3 (01:16:42):
Starlet, kaiser Mary Bowman, mary Bowman these are
some women that we're going tobe really, really trying to find
.

Speaker 2 (01:16:53):
Shiny shiny too, Shawnee Butler.
Shawnee Butler, yes.

Speaker 3 (01:16:59):
Women.
They've been there for a minute, rita, it has a life sentence.

Speaker 2 (01:17:09):
She's be out, huh, rita she's be out Renita.

Speaker 3 (01:17:13):
Yeah, renita, renita, but Rita.

Speaker 2 (01:17:18):
Oh, you're talking about Rita.

Speaker 3 (01:17:20):
Yes, yeah, it's Tiffanyiffany too, tiffany
arnold I.
I just want to mention thembecause, um, I just, I, I just
can't forget about them.
I can't, I can't.
Every night when I go to bed Iit haunts me.
So I know I have to do.
When it's when somethingbothers me that bad, I cannot
just sit on it, I have to dosomething.
Yeah's, when something bothersme that bad, I cannot just sit

(01:17:40):
on it, I have to do somethingyeah, and let me let me say
something about today.

Speaker 2 (01:17:46):
Yesterday, uh, mary Luz, she called me and she told
me about the girls.
She's from Colombia too, shehave a long time to do too, and
she asked me if we can help her.
And I tell her, let me, let metry to to talking about with my,
with my friends.
Yeah, she's from colombia.

(01:18:07):
There's a lot of people janine,jean t, jenny.
Yeah, goodness, we have a lot.

Speaker 1 (01:18:16):
Yeah, that yeah, sounds like you guys got work to
do yeah well, the mostimportant thing is be a
grandmother right.
That's what I said to evelynwhen she boarded the plane home
right now.

Speaker 3 (01:18:30):
Did you know that?
Did you know that?

Speaker 1 (01:18:32):
I told her.
I said she said thank you.
I said no, you go home and be a, be a grandmother.
That's the best thing you cando for your grandmother.

Speaker 3 (01:18:40):
Yeah, never forget these words yeah, yeah that's my
grandbaby, my grand one of mygrandbabies is is.
She's at the house right nowand my my phone's been blowing
up since this podcast and I knowshe wants me there, so I'm
gonna be heading straight homefrom here, all right?

Speaker 1 (01:18:55):
great, um, thank everybody straight here.
Okay, all right, great, thankeverybody and thank you.
We'll.
We'll do this again pretty soon, okay.

Speaker 2 (01:19:03):
Thank you.

Speaker 3 (01:19:05):
Thank you guys.
God bless everybody.
Have a good day.
Sorry, okay.