What happens when a regulatory agency decides to focus on potential rather than past mistakes? The Texas Department of Licensing and Regulation (TDLR) has embraced a groundbreaking "Second Chance" philosophy that's transforming how individuals with criminal histories access professional careers.
Senior Prosecutor Jessica Hurtado takes us deep into TDLR's innovative approach to professional licensing for those with criminal backgrounds. Born from House Bill 1342 in 2019, this initiative removed arbitrary barriers and enabled Fair Chance Hiring opportunities for those who have served their sentences. The results are remarkable, particularly in the electrical and HVAC industries where restricted licenses now provide pathways for individuals to rebuild their lives through meaningful work.
The conversation reveals TDLR's individualized evaluation process for applicants with criminal histories. Rather than blanket denials, the agency considers whether offenses directly relate to the occupation, the time elapsed since conviction, and evidence of rehabilitation efforts. Jessica shares what makes applications successful: "It's very persuasive when somebody can present to me the rehabilitation they've done... anything that shows they've addressed the root cause of their criminal history." Letters from supporters who acknowledge both the person's qualities and their past mistakes carry significant weight in these evaluations.
Most compelling is TDLR's prison outreach program with the Windham School District. This partnership allows incarcerated individuals to receive a free Criminal History Evaluation Letter (CHEL) before investing in vocational training, and even processes license applications pre-release so that newly freed individuals can begin working immediately. This proactive approach tackles recidivism at its source by eliminating the employment gap that so often leads people back to crime.
If you're currently incarcerated, recently released, or worried about how your past could impact your professional future, this episode is for you. Visit www.tdlr.texas.gov to explore how you can benefit from these second chance initiatives, and check out www.tdlr.texas.gov/crimHistoryEval.htm to request a Criminal History Evaluation Letter.
Get more information, details and resources on Know Your Regulator - https://www.belolaw.com/know-your-regulator
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:01):
This podcast is for educational purposes only, does
not constitute legal advice anddoes not create an
attorney-client relationship.
If you need legal assistanceabout a legal problem, contact
an attorney.
Speaker 2 (00:13):
Welcome to Know your Regulator.
The podcast that inspires youto engage.
I am your host, simone Murphy,and co-hosting with me today is
Keri Bloodsaw, associateAttorney at the Bertolino Law
Firm.
Speaker 1 (00:27):
Welcome, keri Hi.
Hi everybody.
I'm excited to join today,ready to dive into some second
chances and talk with TDLR aboutthis really kind of interesting
and inspiring new thing thatthey're doing.
Speaker 2 (00:40):
Yeah, it is really cool.
It's a super neat initiative.
I'm really glad that we get todiscuss it.
Joining us to share all of theins and outs is Jessica Hurtado,
senior Prosecutor at the TexasDepartment of Licensing and
Regulation, and she is leadingthe charge on implementing the
Second Chance philosophy.
Thanks for joining us, jessica.
Speaker 3 (01:02):
Thank you, thanks for having me.
Yes, I am Jessica Hurtado.
I am a senior prosecutor at theTexas Department of Licensing
and Regulation.
I've been with the departmentsince 2017, and I've been
working on criminal historymatters since about 2020.
Speaker 2 (01:20):
That's awesome.
So we'll start with kind of thebasics of this second chance
philosophy.
Can you talk to us about whatTLR's second chance program is
and how it came about?
Speaker 3 (01:35):
Sure.
So in 2019, there was a Housebill that was passed House Bill
1342, that did a couple ofthings to try to enhance second
chance opportunities forindividuals who have a criminal
background and who wish to get alicense to work in their chosen
(01:57):
profession.
And so that bill, basically itremoved some barriers to that
licensure, and one of thosebarriers was that previously
there was a subsection that saidyou could deny a license
application to someone who had acriminal conviction within the
last five years, even if thatconviction really had nothing to
(02:20):
do with the industry they weretrying to work in, and so that
was one thing that got removed,that that's helpful for
individuals.
And the second thing that thatHouse bill did was it added,
actually, section 53003 of theOccupations Code, where the
(02:40):
legislature lays out that it isthe intent of the law that we
enhance opportunities for aperson who has been convicted
and served their sentence togain employment.
So the legislature told usright there in the law that we
(03:02):
need to make these secondchances a priority.
Nice, that makes sense, right,it does.
And one thing that we knowabout recidivism is that coming
out and being able to get a jobis really important in reducing
that rate of recidivism backinto prison.
Speaker 1 (03:22):
That's good to know, okay, really good to know.
Well, I think you've reallykind of laid out a lot about,
like, how this is going to bebeneficial, basically that it's
not shutting the door on a lotof folks that maybe it used to.
Can you talk specifically aboutmaybe any individual license
that you think this is going toreally help applicants with?
(03:42):
Or is it just kind of ingeneral, you guys hope to see a
blanket benefit to anybody thathad a conviction that's looking
to get licensed now?
Speaker 3 (03:52):
TDLR has always taken a individualized approach when
we look at someone's criminalhistory and only very rarely, in
some special circumstances, isthere a blanket denial, but most
often there are things thatpeople can do to help their
(04:12):
chances.
Now there is another sort ofsecond chances initiative that
came about that appliesspecifically to our electrical
and HVAC programs and that thoseprograms.
What the law allows is for thedepartment to issue what is
(04:33):
termed a restricted license andthat license allows an
individual who may want to workin an industrial or a commercial
setting to get that license andwork in those settings with a
criminal history that may havebeen concerning for someone who
(04:54):
is going into residentiallocations or to homes or schools
, something like that.
So, as far as a restrictedlicense goes, when we're
examining someone's criminalhistory, we're looking at the
guideline crimes that we haveadopted, and so, for example,
one of those guideline crimesinvolves crimes that involve
(05:15):
physical harm or assault toanother individual.
Okay, so that is going to be aconcern for anyone who is maybe
you're going to let into yourhome as an electrician or as an
HVAC technician.
Those are the kinds of thingsthat we may be concerned about,
and this came about becausethese individuals would come to
(05:37):
the commission and they wouldhave their employers there who
are supporting them and want toemploy them in these industrial
commercial settings.
But the problem was the law didnot allow us to limit them to
those types of settings, and so,while we could all say, today
you're working here, buttomorrow, you know you're free
to go anywhere else and we can'tmonitor that, and so this
(06:00):
really allows us to get moreinto the nitty gritty with
someone and, when they have thesupport of their employer, and
to spell out those actualrestrictions that they're going
to agree to and their employeris going to agree to, such as
the employer may agree, I'mgoing to be there with him on
(06:23):
the job site or the employer mayagree, agree, I'm not going to
be there, but he's not going towork on our residential
locations and I'm going to beresponsible for ensuring that
those restrictions are followed.
And that's important, becausethe department does not have the
resources to monitor arestricted license, does not
(06:46):
have the resources to monitor arestricted license.
But if we have another licenseewho is saying I'm going to put
my own license on the line youknow I am putting by saying I'm
going to uphold theserestrictions and if I don't I'm
leaving myself open, you know,to a possible penalty or
sanction then that really goes along way to getting that person
getting that agreement in placeso that they can go to work.
(07:10):
And then once they've shownthat they can, you know, be
successful for that license term, when they come around again
for renewal assuming there's nonew criminal history then
they're going to be able to getthat full license assuming
there's no new criminal history,then they're going to be able
to get that full license.
Speaker 1 (07:30):
Yeah, and it seems like probably what PDLR's main
goal was, even back when the lawwas different, which is like we
just want to protect, you know,the public and we want to make
sure that especially people thatare going into people's homes
don't have history that we don'tlike.
But it makes sense to me that,yeah, if you can have somebody
kind of vouching for yourapplicant, then you know it
benefits them to give them achance, as opposed to just kind
(07:50):
of black letter lawing it andsaying, no, you know, we can't
have you here.
Yeah, that's really great.
So you kind of touched on it alittle bit with that in terms of
, like, employer support but forapplicants listening, what are
some other things that you findreally helpful?
When an application comesacross your desk where there's
some criminal history, what areyou kind of wanting and looking
(08:12):
for?
Speaker 3 (08:14):
Yeah, that's a great question.
So there's a couple ofdifferent things that we're
looking at we're always going tobe looking at.
First of all, is this acriminal history?
Is it directly related to theoccupation that they're seeking?
So, for example, we're talkingabout electricians, for the
guidelines for electriciansdon't include any type of drug
(08:36):
offenses or intoxicationoffenses.
So if that's your criminalhistory background and you want
to be an electrician, you're notgoing to have an issue as far
as your criminal history goes.
Now compare that to a tow truckdriver, which we also regulate.
You know, an intoxicationoffense is of actual great
(08:58):
concern for a tow truck driver,because if you were to drive a
tow truck while intoxicated, youwould be putting the public in
danger, and so we're alwaysbalancing this second chances
versus protecting the publicsafety, as you mentioned earlier
.
So that's the first thing thatwe're going to be looking at.
Now, that's not really withinthe applicant's control, but
(09:21):
it's good for them to know theapplicant's control, but it's
good for them to know Some otherthings that are.
Important is how much time haspassed since the last offense
occurred.
Obviously, the longer in timeyou go without having a new
crime, the better it is, themore, you've shown that you've
rehabilitated yourself.
(09:41):
But the things that that reallycan impact an applicant which
which they can provide to us areproof of rehabilitation efforts
is a big one.
So, for example, you know,sometimes we'll see someone with
a history of theft offenseswhich can be a concern for
(10:06):
several of our programs.
Again, if you're going intohomes or if you're going to be
around unintended property, youknow theft is always going to be
a concern and you may also seea lot of drug offenses along
with those thefts.
And when they are explainingtheir criminal history they may
say to you you know, I wasaddicted to drugs and that
(10:30):
caused me to steal property, tofurther you know my addiction or
whatnot, right, so when you can, so in that type of situation,
if you were to present, you know, I find it very persuasive if
somebody can present to mehere's the rehabilitation I've
done for my drug addiction.
You know, what programs have Iparticipated in?
(10:54):
Am I going to a group, you know?
Am I participating in some sortof therapy, participating in
some sort of therapy?
Anything like that to show thatI've addressed the root cause
of my criminal history, of mythefts, you know, is always very
persuasive.
Speaker 1 (11:13):
Right.
So really things that kind ofcan give TDLR some reassurance
that whatever the issue was haskind of been cured or that this
person is now, you know, justdifferent from who they were
back then exactly, and lettersfrom individuals that know the
person can be very persuasive alot of times.
Speaker 3 (11:35):
you know, doing this for as long as I have, I can
tell the difference between aletter that someone has written
for someone that they may notknow as well as some, against a
letter that you know, where youcan tell the person writing the
letter knows the individual welland it's very persuasive when
(11:58):
they can speak to the fact thatthey know what their criminal
history is and they're stillwilling to say you know, this is
how they've changed.
Sometimes, if a letter writeryou know can say great things
about a person but they don'tindicate to me that they are
aware of the person's background, that can it's not as helpful
(12:23):
because then it's like, well,did they know about this past?
because you know you know,people don't want to talk about
their criminal history.
Clearly I mean and so it's morepersuasive to me if the person
writing the letter candemonstrate that right.
Speaker 1 (12:41):
Well, that's really reassuring to hear, because I
say that to my clients all thetime.
I say the best letter is aletter that's going to speak to
what the issue is, so that theagency is aware, like here's all
these great things about thisperson and I'm also aware of why
we're here.
Because, right, I think to yourpoint.
It kind of deflates a letter ifyou're sitting there reading it
(13:02):
, unsure if they even know aboutyou, know what your concern is
in this case you know, criminalhistory.
Speaker 2 (13:07):
Really great for our viewers to know and super
impactful.
It's just so awesome that TDLRis really focusing on like
allowing rehabilitation and likenoticing those efforts, because
a lot of I don't know somepeople can probably get really
far and then really find thatwall when they go back into the
world and try and get into theworkforce and there's just kind
(13:30):
of a icky stigma and things likethat.
That can just be deflating toyou know, to some.
But again, one thing thatreally did catch our attention
was that you're not justreviewing the applicants
post-release, you guys are goinginto prisons.
Can you talk to us a little bitabout that prison outreach
(13:53):
program?
What does that look like?
Speaker 3 (13:57):
Sure.
So I'm trying to think aboutwhen this started.
It's been several years sincewe started working really
closely with the Wyndham SchoolDistrict which, for your
listeners, the Wyndham SchoolDistrict and get that high
school education that you maynot have, get your GED.
And now what's really excitingis that they're offering more
(14:36):
and more secondary education.
So associate's degrees and evenbachelor degrees now.
So associate's degrees and evenbachelor degrees.
Now when TDLR comes in with thatis that if they're going to be
getting that training whilethey're incarcerated, we want to
make sure they're going to beeligible for that license when
they get out.
And so we work with Wyndham.
(14:57):
Wyndham has the students fillout what we call a CHEL
application, which is a criminalhistory evaluation letter, and
anybody in the general publiccan get a CHEL and pay.
It's a $10 fee for the public,but with Wyndham we do that for
them for free.
(15:19):
But we work with their studentsso that they submit those in
advance to make sure if thatperson has some criminal history
that is within the guidelinesthat they're still going to need
to take more steps.
I'm going to need to get moreof that, you know,
(15:46):
rehabilitative information orletters of recommendation.
I'm going to have to work alittle harder if I want to get
the license.
Speaker 1 (15:54):
So it sounds like how these inmates kind of find out
about this program is throughWyndham, is through the school.
They're going to let them knowhey look, these are these new
programs, and then they get tostart.
What's the reception been like?
I mean, have you had a lot ofpeople taking advantage of these
programs and have you seen kindof what's happened after
(16:18):
they've been able to complete it?
If they have been?
Speaker 3 (16:21):
Yeah, I think the reception has been good.
We've really increased thenumber of Chells that we've done
for WINDOW over the last coupleof years.
We've also given their whatthey call.
They're called student advisors, so these are the individuals
in the prison who is helping thestudent decide, like, what kind
of vocational training they maywant, and so we've actually
(16:45):
trained those individuals on ourlicensing process so they can
help the students betterunderstand.
These are the guideline crimes.
These are the things that aregoing to be, you know, maybe an
issue, or explain to them, oryou know, maybe they'll explain
to them.
Your criminal history isactually not going to be an
issue if you want to beelectrician or if you want to be
(17:07):
a cosmetologist.
The other exciting thing thatwe're doing with the Windham
School District now is thatwe're accepting applications
from their students in theseregulated industries in advance
of their release, and so thatallows us to have that
processing time to process theirapplication through our system
while that student isapproaching their release from
(17:29):
incarceration, so that we canget that license into their
hands, as you know, as quicklyas possible after that day one
release, because the faster theyget the license, the faster
they can go to work andhopefully, you know, become
productive members of oursociety and go forth and be
(17:50):
successful in their profession.
And so that's really exciting,working with Wyndham on how to
do that and get that program upand running this last, I guess,
two years now.
Speaker 1 (18:04):
Yeah, that aspect sounds really great, and I was a
public defender in Georgia andFulton County for a long time,
so I know like if we had hadsomething like that, then, like
it's.
It's really disheartening whenyou're coming out of, you know,
prison or even sometimes whenyou're, if you're in jail for
however long, um, and just notknowing what you can do and like
(18:26):
you were punished, but nowyou're out and you still can't
do anything.
So the fact that they couldknow like oh, I have, you know,
maybe four more months orwhatever it is, but I have a
license waiting for me.
I can imagine that also justmakes that time for them, you
know, even more easy to bear orlike gives them even more of a
(18:47):
reason to do well and do otherthings you know, productive
while they're, while they're,you know, inside, because they
know they have that waiting forthem.
That's really great.
I don't know how many otherstates are doing that, but I'd
actually like to look into it.
We've kind of been mostlyfocusing on applicants, right,
simone?
So people that haven't had alicense before, can we talk a
(19:10):
little bit about reinstatement?
So maybe somebody that wasdenied before just outright, or
somebody that lost their licensebased on a conviction.
What's kind of changing orwhat's this looking like for
them?
Speaker 3 (19:25):
Sure Great question.
So when we're talking aboutsomeone who's lost a license due
to their criminal history again, or they were denied, you know
when they originally applied.
It goes back to the thatindividual review, and so there
have been many instances that Ihave personally worked on where
(19:46):
you know it's been two or threeyears and now the person has
more time has elapsed and maybethey've shown, maybe they've
presented some additionalrehabilitative efforts or some
letters of recommendation whereI have absolutely granted a
license where in the past theyhad been denied, and it's just.
(20:09):
It's all about that balance ofwe need to protect the public
but also give people anopportunity to be employed, and
sometimes people are right onthe line and so a couple of
years can make the difference.
Also, when you speaking aboutlosing a license, you know if
(20:30):
you had a penalty or a fine thatyou owed and you didn't pay it
and you got your license revokedfor that reason.
Now the law actually allows usto reinstate your license as
soon as you get into a paymentplan.
So you get into a payment planwith the department, come in,
(20:52):
you know and agree that you'regoing to pay off whatever the
penalty is you owed, and youdon't have to wait that full
year now before getting yourlicense back.
So that, I think, is reallyhelpful, because the whole point
of revoking the license is justbecause, simply, you need to
pay your fine.
You owe a penalty for whateverreason, and you need to pay it,
(21:14):
and that's kind of the onlystick the department has.
And so if you're going to comeback and say yes, I'll pay, then
there's really no reason not tolet you have your license back.
Speaker 1 (21:26):
Right and kind of goes hand in hand a little bit
with this in terms of secondchances and especially if it's a
monetary issue.
You know you don't want that tohold someone back, just like
you don't want someone'scriminal history to hold them
back from being licensed.
That's really great for thoseinmates.
Speaker 2 (22:01):
I mean, you can really save yourself some
heartache or some stress or justthe anxiousness of can I, can I
not really early?
For, like I said, $10.
I think that's super powerful.
It's such a great option thatthese potential licensees have
to know early on can I obtainthis license?
Should I go to school for this?
Should I take these classes andreally sink a bunch of money
(22:22):
and time into this, or should Isimply look for something else?
You know?
Speaker 3 (22:27):
Yeah, absolutely.
None of us want to waste ourhard-earned money and resources
and time in a pursuit that we'reultimately you know there's
going to be harder for us to geta license or maybe not, you
know immediately able to do so.
So, yeah, we always encouragepeople to get that shell before
(22:47):
they commit to, you know,cosmetology school or barbering
school or any of the otherregulated industries where you
know you have to invest up frontin that education.
Speaker 2 (23:01):
Yeah, Well, jessica, thank you very much for joining
us this afternoon.
It's been a really eye-openingconversation about this super
impactful program.
It really is more than just apolicy.
It sounds like it's a culturalshift that's happening.
I hope that we can see thisamongst other agencies.
It's just treating people likethey're, you know, so much more
(23:25):
than a bad moment or a badperiod of time in their life or
maybe just a misunderstoodperiod of time, and you guys are
really giving them the toolsthat they need to succeed
straight out of you know leavingprisons.
That's super awesome.
Thank you very need to succeedstraight out of you know leaving
prisons.
That's super awesome.
Thank you very much for carvingtime out of your day to join us
.
Speaker 1 (23:45):
Thank you so much for having me.
Thank you, thank you so muchand to our viewers.
Speaker 2 (23:52):
Thank you for tuning in.
If you or someone you know hasa criminal history and is
wondering if they can obtain aprofessional license, don't
assume that the answer is no.
You can get more second chanceinformation at tdlrtexasgov and
visit the link below in ourdescription.
Follow us for more insights,stories and updates that matter
(24:13):
to license holders across Texas.
Until next time, stay inspiredand continue engaging with your
regulatory agency.
Speaker 1 (24:21):
Know your Regulator.
The podcast that inspires youto engage.
This podcast is for educational purposes only, does
not constitute legal advice anddoes not create an
attorney-client relationship.
If you need legal assistanceabout a legal problem, contact
an attorney.
Speaker 2 (00:13):
Welcome to Know your Regulator.
The podcast that inspires youto engage.
I am your host, simone Murphy,and co-hosting with me today is
Keri Bloodsaw, associateAttorney at the Bertolino Law
Firm.
Speaker 1 (00:27):
Welcome, keri Hi.
Hi everybody.
I'm excited to join today,ready to dive into some second
chances and talk with TDLR aboutthis really kind of interesting
and inspiring new thing thatthey're doing.
Speaker 2 (00:40):
Yeah, it is really cool.
It's a super neat initiative.
I'm really glad that we get todiscuss it.
Joining us to share all of theins and outs is Jessica Hurtado,
senior Prosecutor at the TexasDepartment of Licensing and
Regulation, and she is leadingthe charge on implementing the
Second Chance philosophy.
Thanks for joining us, jessica.
Speaker 3 (01:02):
Thank you, thanks for having me.
Yes, I am Jessica Hurtado.
I am a senior prosecutor at theTexas Department of Licensing
and Regulation.
I've been with the departmentsince 2017, and I've been
working on criminal historymatters since about 2020.
Speaker 2 (01:20):
That's awesome.
So we'll start with kind of thebasics of this second chance
philosophy.
Can you talk to us about whatTLR's second chance program is
and how it came about?
Speaker 3 (01:35):
Sure.
So in 2019, there was a Housebill that was passed House Bill
1342, that did a couple ofthings to try to enhance second
chance opportunities forindividuals who have a criminal
background and who wish to get alicense to work in their chosen
(01:57):
profession.
And so that bill, basically itremoved some barriers to that
licensure, and one of thosebarriers was that previously
there was a subsection that saidyou could deny a license
application to someone who had acriminal conviction within the
last five years, even if thatconviction really had nothing to
(02:20):
do with the industry they weretrying to work in, and so that
was one thing that got removed,that that's helpful for
individuals.
And the second thing that thatHouse bill did was it added,
actually, section 53003 of theOccupations Code, where the
(02:40):
legislature lays out that it isthe intent of the law that we
enhance opportunities for aperson who has been convicted
and served their sentence togain employment.
So the legislature told usright there in the law that we
(03:02):
need to make these secondchances a priority.
Nice, that makes sense, right,it does.
And one thing that we knowabout recidivism is that coming
out and being able to get a jobis really important in reducing
that rate of recidivism backinto prison.
Speaker 1 (03:22):
That's good to know, okay, really good to know.
Well, I think you've reallykind of laid out a lot about,
like, how this is going to bebeneficial, basically that it's
not shutting the door on a lotof folks that maybe it used to.
Can you talk specifically aboutmaybe any individual license
that you think this is going toreally help applicants with?
(03:42):
Or is it just kind of ingeneral, you guys hope to see a
blanket benefit to anybody thathad a conviction that's looking
to get licensed now?
Speaker 3 (03:52):
TDLR has always taken a individualized approach when
we look at someone's criminalhistory and only very rarely, in
some special circumstances, isthere a blanket denial, but most
often there are things thatpeople can do to help their
(04:12):
chances.
Now there is another sort ofsecond chances initiative that
came about that appliesspecifically to our electrical
and HVAC programs and that thoseprograms.
What the law allows is for thedepartment to issue what is
(04:33):
termed a restricted license andthat license allows an
individual who may want to workin an industrial or a commercial
setting to get that license andwork in those settings with a
criminal history that may havebeen concerning for someone who
(04:54):
is going into residentiallocations or to homes or schools
, something like that.
So, as far as a restrictedlicense goes, when we're
examining someone's criminalhistory, we're looking at the
guideline crimes that we haveadopted, and so, for example,
one of those guideline crimesinvolves crimes that involve
(05:15):
physical harm or assault toanother individual.
Okay, so that is going to be aconcern for anyone who is maybe
you're going to let into yourhome as an electrician or as an
HVAC technician.
Those are the kinds of thingsthat we may be concerned about,
and this came about becausethese individuals would come to
(05:37):
the commission and they wouldhave their employers there who
are supporting them and want toemploy them in these industrial
commercial settings.
But the problem was the law didnot allow us to limit them to
those types of settings, and so,while we could all say, today
you're working here, buttomorrow, you know you're free
to go anywhere else and we can'tmonitor that, and so this
(06:00):
really allows us to get moreinto the nitty gritty with
someone and, when they have thesupport of their employer, and
to spell out those actualrestrictions that they're going
to agree to and their employeris going to agree to, such as
the employer may agree, I'mgoing to be there with him on
(06:23):
the job site or the employer mayagree, agree, I'm not going to
be there, but he's not going towork on our residential
locations and I'm going to beresponsible for ensuring that
those restrictions are followed.
And that's important, becausethe department does not have the
resources to monitor arestricted license, does not
(06:46):
have the resources to monitor arestricted license.
But if we have another licenseewho is saying I'm going to put
my own license on the line youknow I am putting by saying I'm
going to uphold theserestrictions and if I don't I'm
leaving myself open, you know,to a possible penalty or
sanction then that really goes along way to getting that person
getting that agreement in placeso that they can go to work.
(07:10):
And then once they've shownthat they can, you know, be
successful for that license term, when they come around again
for renewal assuming there's nonew criminal history then
they're going to be able to getthat full license assuming
there's no new criminal history,then they're going to be able
to get that full license.
Speaker 1 (07:30):
Yeah, and it seems like probably what PDLR's main
goal was, even back when the lawwas different, which is like we
just want to protect, you know,the public and we want to make
sure that especially people thatare going into people's homes
don't have history that we don'tlike.
But it makes sense to me that,yeah, if you can have somebody
kind of vouching for yourapplicant, then you know it
benefits them to give them achance, as opposed to just kind
(07:50):
of black letter lawing it andsaying, no, you know, we can't
have you here.
Yeah, that's really great.
So you kind of touched on it alittle bit with that in terms of
, like, employer support but forapplicants listening, what are
some other things that you findreally helpful?
When an application comesacross your desk where there's
some criminal history, what areyou kind of wanting and looking
(08:12):
for?
Speaker 3 (08:14):
Yeah, that's a great question.
So there's a couple ofdifferent things that we're
looking at we're always going tobe looking at.
First of all, is this acriminal history?
Is it directly related to theoccupation that they're seeking?
So, for example, we're talkingabout electricians, for the
guidelines for electriciansdon't include any type of drug
(08:36):
offenses or intoxicationoffenses.
So if that's your criminalhistory background and you want
to be an electrician, you're notgoing to have an issue as far
as your criminal history goes.
Now compare that to a tow truckdriver, which we also regulate.
You know, an intoxicationoffense is of actual great
(08:58):
concern for a tow truck driver,because if you were to drive a
tow truck while intoxicated, youwould be putting the public in
danger, and so we're alwaysbalancing this second chances
versus protecting the publicsafety, as you mentioned earlier
.
So that's the first thing thatwe're going to be looking at.
Now, that's not really withinthe applicant's control, but
(09:21):
it's good for them to know theapplicant's control, but it's
good for them to know Some otherthings that are.
Important is how much time haspassed since the last offense
occurred.
Obviously, the longer in timeyou go without having a new
crime, the better it is, themore, you've shown that you've
rehabilitated yourself.
(09:41):
But the things that that reallycan impact an applicant which
which they can provide to us areproof of rehabilitation efforts
is a big one.
So, for example, you know,sometimes we'll see someone with
a history of theft offenseswhich can be a concern for
(10:06):
several of our programs.
Again, if you're going intohomes or if you're going to be
around unintended property, youknow theft is always going to be
a concern and you may also seea lot of drug offenses along
with those thefts.
And when they are explainingtheir criminal history they may
say to you you know, I wasaddicted to drugs and that
(10:30):
caused me to steal property, tofurther you know my addiction or
whatnot, right, so when you can, so in that type of situation,
if you were to present, you know, I find it very persuasive if
somebody can present to mehere's the rehabilitation I've
done for my drug addiction.
You know, what programs have Iparticipated in?
(10:54):
Am I going to a group, you know?
Am I participating in some sortof therapy, participating in
some sort of therapy?
Anything like that to show thatI've addressed the root cause
of my criminal history, of mythefts, you know, is always very
persuasive.
Speaker 1 (11:13):
Right.
So really things that kind ofcan give TDLR some reassurance
that whatever the issue was haskind of been cured or that this
person is now, you know, justdifferent from who they were
back then exactly, and lettersfrom individuals that know the
person can be very persuasive alot of times.
Speaker 3 (11:35):
you know, doing this for as long as I have, I can
tell the difference between aletter that someone has written
for someone that they may notknow as well as some, against a
letter that you know, where youcan tell the person writing the
letter knows the individual welland it's very persuasive when
(11:58):
they can speak to the fact thatthey know what their criminal
history is and they're stillwilling to say you know, this is
how they've changed.
Sometimes, if a letter writeryou know can say great things
about a person but they don'tindicate to me that they are
aware of the person's background, that can it's not as helpful
(12:23):
because then it's like, well,did they know about this past?
because you know you know,people don't want to talk about
their criminal history.
Clearly I mean and so it's morepersuasive to me if the person
writing the letter candemonstrate that right.
Speaker 1 (12:41):
Well, that's really reassuring to hear, because I
say that to my clients all thetime.
I say the best letter is aletter that's going to speak to
what the issue is, so that theagency is aware, like here's all
these great things about thisperson and I'm also aware of why
we're here.
Because, right, I think to yourpoint.
It kind of deflates a letter ifyou're sitting there reading it
(13:02):
, unsure if they even know aboutyou, know what your concern is
in this case you know, criminalhistory.
Speaker 2 (13:07):
Really great for our viewers to know and super
impactful.
It's just so awesome that TDLRis really focusing on like
allowing rehabilitation and likenoticing those efforts, because
a lot of I don't know somepeople can probably get really
far and then really find thatwall when they go back into the
world and try and get into theworkforce and there's just kind
(13:30):
of a icky stigma and things likethat.
That can just be deflating toyou know, to some.
But again, one thing thatreally did catch our attention
was that you're not justreviewing the applicants
post-release, you guys are goinginto prisons.
Can you talk to us a little bitabout that prison outreach
(13:53):
program?
What does that look like?
Speaker 3 (13:57):
Sure.
So I'm trying to think aboutwhen this started.
It's been several years sincewe started working really
closely with the Wyndham SchoolDistrict which, for your
listeners, the Wyndham SchoolDistrict and get that high
school education that you maynot have, get your GED.
And now what's really excitingis that they're offering more
(14:36):
and more secondary education.
So associate's degrees and evenbachelor degrees now.
So associate's degrees and evenbachelor degrees.
Now when TDLR comes in with thatis that if they're going to be
getting that training whilethey're incarcerated, we want to
make sure they're going to beeligible for that license when
they get out.
And so we work with Wyndham.
(14:57):
Wyndham has the students fillout what we call a CHEL
application, which is a criminalhistory evaluation letter, and
anybody in the general publiccan get a CHEL and pay.
It's a $10 fee for the public,but with Wyndham we do that for
them for free.
(15:19):
But we work with their studentsso that they submit those in
advance to make sure if thatperson has some criminal history
that is within the guidelinesthat they're still going to need
to take more steps.
I'm going to need to get moreof that, you know,
(15:46):
rehabilitative information orletters of recommendation.
I'm going to have to work alittle harder if I want to get
the license.
Speaker 1 (15:54):
So it sounds like how these inmates kind of find out
about this program is throughWyndham, is through the school.
They're going to let them knowhey look, these are these new
programs, and then they get tostart.
What's the reception been like?
I mean, have you had a lot ofpeople taking advantage of these
programs and have you seen kindof what's happened after
(16:18):
they've been able to complete it?
If they have been?
Speaker 3 (16:21):
Yeah, I think the reception has been good.
We've really increased thenumber of Chells that we've done
for WINDOW over the last coupleof years.
We've also given their whatthey call.
They're called student advisors, so these are the individuals
in the prison who is helping thestudent decide, like, what kind
of vocational training they maywant, and so we've actually
(16:45):
trained those individuals on ourlicensing process so they can
help the students betterunderstand.
These are the guideline crimes.
These are the things that aregoing to be, you know, maybe an
issue, or explain to them, oryou know, maybe they'll explain
to them.
Your criminal history isactually not going to be an
issue if you want to beelectrician or if you want to be
(17:07):
a cosmetologist.
The other exciting thing thatwe're doing with the Windham
School District now is thatwe're accepting applications
from their students in theseregulated industries in advance
of their release, and so thatallows us to have that
processing time to process theirapplication through our system
while that student isapproaching their release from
(17:29):
incarceration, so that we canget that license into their
hands, as you know, as quicklyas possible after that day one
release, because the faster theyget the license, the faster
they can go to work andhopefully, you know, become
productive members of oursociety and go forth and be
(17:50):
successful in their profession.
And so that's really exciting,working with Wyndham on how to
do that and get that program upand running this last, I guess,
two years now.
Speaker 1 (18:04):
Yeah, that aspect sounds really great, and I was a
public defender in Georgia andFulton County for a long time,
so I know like if we had hadsomething like that, then, like
it's.
It's really disheartening whenyou're coming out of, you know,
prison or even sometimes whenyou're, if you're in jail for
however long, um, and just notknowing what you can do and like
(18:26):
you were punished, but nowyou're out and you still can't
do anything.
So the fact that they couldknow like oh, I have, you know,
maybe four more months orwhatever it is, but I have a
license waiting for me.
I can imagine that also justmakes that time for them, you
know, even more easy to bear orlike gives them even more of a
(18:47):
reason to do well and do otherthings you know, productive
while they're, while they're,you know, inside, because they
know they have that waiting forthem.
That's really great.
I don't know how many otherstates are doing that, but I'd
actually like to look into it.
We've kind of been mostlyfocusing on applicants, right,
simone?
So people that haven't had alicense before, can we talk a
(19:10):
little bit about reinstatement?
So maybe somebody that wasdenied before just outright, or
somebody that lost their licensebased on a conviction.
What's kind of changing orwhat's this looking like for
them?
Speaker 3 (19:25):
Sure Great question.
So when we're talking aboutsomeone who's lost a license due
to their criminal history again, or they were denied, you know
when they originally applied.
It goes back to the thatindividual review, and so there
have been many instances that Ihave personally worked on where
(19:46):
you know it's been two or threeyears and now the person has
more time has elapsed and maybethey've shown, maybe they've
presented some additionalrehabilitative efforts or some
letters of recommendation whereI have absolutely granted a
license where in the past theyhad been denied, and it's just.
(20:09):
It's all about that balance ofwe need to protect the public
but also give people anopportunity to be employed, and
sometimes people are right onthe line and so a couple of
years can make the difference.
Also, when you speaking aboutlosing a license, you know if
(20:30):
you had a penalty or a fine thatyou owed and you didn't pay it
and you got your license revokedfor that reason.
Now the law actually allows usto reinstate your license as
soon as you get into a paymentplan.
So you get into a payment planwith the department, come in,
(20:52):
you know and agree that you'regoing to pay off whatever the
penalty is you owed, and youdon't have to wait that full
year now before getting yourlicense back.
So that, I think, is reallyhelpful, because the whole point
of revoking the license is justbecause, simply, you need to
pay your fine.
You owe a penalty for whateverreason, and you need to pay it,
(21:14):
and that's kind of the onlystick the department has.
And so if you're going to comeback and say yes, I'll pay, then
there's really no reason not tolet you have your license back.
Speaker 1 (21:26):
Right and kind of goes hand in hand a little bit
with this in terms of secondchances and especially if it's a
monetary issue.
You know you don't want that tohold someone back, just like
you don't want someone'scriminal history to hold them
back from being licensed.
That's really great for thoseinmates.
Speaker 2 (22:01):
I mean, you can really save yourself some
heartache or some stress or justthe anxiousness of can I, can I
not really early?
For, like I said, $10.
I think that's super powerful.
It's such a great option thatthese potential licensees have
to know early on can I obtainthis license?
Should I go to school for this?
Should I take these classes andreally sink a bunch of money
(22:22):
and time into this, or should Isimply look for something else?
You know?
Speaker 3 (22:27):
Yeah, absolutely.
None of us want to waste ourhard-earned money and resources
and time in a pursuit that we'reultimately you know there's
going to be harder for us to geta license or maybe not, you
know immediately able to do so.
So, yeah, we always encouragepeople to get that shell before
(22:47):
they commit to, you know,cosmetology school or barbering
school or any of the otherregulated industries where you
know you have to invest up frontin that education.
Speaker 2 (23:01):
Yeah, Well, jessica, thank you very much for joining
us this afternoon.
It's been a really eye-openingconversation about this super
impactful program.
It really is more than just apolicy.
It sounds like it's a culturalshift that's happening.
I hope that we can see thisamongst other agencies.
It's just treating people likethey're, you know, so much more
(23:25):
than a bad moment or a badperiod of time in their life or
maybe just a misunderstoodperiod of time, and you guys are
really giving them the toolsthat they need to succeed
straight out of you know leavingprisons.
That's super awesome.
Thank you very need to succeedstraight out of you know leaving
prisons.
That's super awesome.
Thank you very much for carvingtime out of your day to join us
.
Speaker 1 (23:45):
Thank you so much for having me.
Thank you, thank you so muchand to our viewers.
Speaker 2 (23:52):
Thank you for tuning in.
If you or someone you know hasa criminal history and is
wondering if they can obtain aprofessional license, don't
assume that the answer is no.
You can get more second chanceinformation at tdlrtexasgov and
visit the link below in ourdescription.
Follow us for more insights,stories and updates that matter
(24:13):
to license holders across Texas.
Until next time, stay inspiredand continue engaging with your
regulatory agency.
Speaker 1 (24:21):
Know your Regulator.
The podcast that inspires youto engage.
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