March 11, 2025 • 20 mins
When your professional license is threatened by disciplinary action, understanding the regulatory process becomes critical to your career's survival. Our conversation with attorney Kerry Bloodsaw pulls back the curtain on two pivotal stages of administrative proceedings that can determine a license holder's fate.
Kerry walks us through the stark differences between Informal Settlement Conferences (ISCs) and State Office of Administrative Hearings (SOAH) proceedings, revealing crucial information licensed professionals rarely understand until they're deep in the process. We learn that ISCs vary significantly between regulatory boards—from the highly formal proceedings of the Texas Medical Board to more relaxed sessions with behavioral health regulators—yet all represent a crucial opportunity that shouldn't be squandered.
The conversation takes a sobering turn when Kerry explains the reality of SOAH hearings. Unlike ISCs, where agencies are still willing to hear a licensee's perspective, SOAH represents full-scale litigation where the regulatory body is typically seeking license revocation. The preparation requirements skyrocket, timing extends from minutes to days, and procedural complexity multiplies exponentially. Perhaps most eye-opening is Kerry's insight that even successful appeals rarely end cases—they simply restart them, often with the same decision-makers reviewing the matter again.
Whether you're currently facing disciplinary action or simply want to understand the processes that could one day affect your professional standing, this episode provides essential insights for any licensed professional. Don't miss Kerry's final advice on why attempting to navigate either process without representation could prove disastrous for your career and livelihood. Know Your Regulator, inspiring professionals to engage.
Get more information, details and resources on Know Your Regulator - https://www.belolaw.com/know-your-regulator
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:01):
This podcast is for educational purposes only, does
not constitute legal advice anddoes not create an
attorney-client relationship.
If you need legal assistanceabout a legal problem, contact
an attorney.
Welcome to Know your Regulator.
The podcast that inspires youto engage.
I am your host, simone Murphy,and co-hosting with me today is
(00:23):
MJ Hooper.
Today, we're going to talkabout two critical stages in the
administrative process forlicense holders facing
disciplinary action informalsettlement conferences, or often
referred to as ISCs, and theState Office of Administrative
Hearings, or often referred toas SOA.
Speaker 2 (00:42):
Good afternoon ladies .
That's right.
Today we are going to break itall down with our attorney,
carrie Blitzhoff, who has anextensive experience
representing professionalsduring these type of proceedings
.
Speaker 3 (00:54):
Hi, thank you for having me.
I do think this is aninteresting and important topic.
I think a lot of licenseholders are probably confused by
what an ISC is and what a SOAis, so I think this will be
helpful for a lot of people.
Speaker 1 (01:07):
Awesome.
Well, let's get into it.
We'll start with the informalsettlement conference.
Carrie, can you explain what itis and why it happens?
Speaker 3 (01:18):
Yeah, so generally this is like the first stop
during the investigation, oncethe license holder has submitted
a response.
Sometimes the agencies kind ofdo an ISC and a response at the
same time, but most of the timethe license holders probably had
a chance to provide some typeof information in writing, and
(01:40):
then the boards looked at it anddecided that they kind of want
to hear a little bit more, andso they'll send out an ISC
notice.
Sometimes they're mandatory andother times they're optional,
and then some boards actuallydon't have any ISCs at all.
Speaker 2 (01:57):
Thank you for explaining that, Carrie.
Also, I know every agency isdifferent, but can you kind of
give us an idea as to whotypically is present at the ISC
and or the panel members?
Speaker 3 (02:08):
Sure, yeah, like you said, it really depends on the
agency.
Some agencies that are a lotmore formal with their ISCs are
agencies like the Board ofPharmacy, the Texas Medical
Board, the boards foroccupational therapists and
physical therapists.
Those are a little bit moreformal.
(02:29):
They normally have anadministrator, sometimes the
agency's general counsel, that'skind of monitoring or running
the show, and then they'd have astaff attorney that's there
kind of presenting the factsagainst the license holder, and
then sometimes these agencieswill have an investigator or
multiple investigators presentthat worked on the case and then
(02:51):
generally they'll have at leasttwo board members, normally one
public and one license holder.
That would act as board membersthat are kind of listening in
and then conducting the rest ofthe ISC.
Those are kind of the moreformal ones.
They feel a little bit morelike a hearing um, or they would
feel like that to maybe alicense holder, um.
(03:13):
But other ISCs can be much morecasual Um, the Texas uh
education agency, um.
And then the behavioralexecutive council.
Those are a little bit morerelaxed.
They have much less people inattendance.
The ones with Tia is just theinvestigator and then the ones
(03:34):
with BHEC normally have a staffattorney and two board members,
but generally staff doesn't saytoo much and the focus is really
on the questions that the panelhas for the license holder.
Speaker 1 (03:48):
That's awesome information for our viewers to
know, keri.
Thanks for that.
I have probably a burningquestion on some people's minds
Is the outcome of the ISCbinding, or can the license
holder reject it?
Speaker 3 (04:04):
Yeah, that's a really good question and probably
something that a lot of peoplewould think about if they were
deciding whether to take the ISCor not.
Like I said, they're notoptional or they are optional
sometimes.
So somebody might be thinkingabout what happens.
You know if I don't like theresult.
The ISCs are not binding.
The offer generally comes afteryou know the ISC closes.
(04:25):
Binding the offer generallycomes after you know the ISC
closes.
Sometimes it's immediatelyafter.
Sometimes they take somethingunder advisement and you'll hear
back in like a week or so.
But eventually, once you getwhatever that offer is, you know
, you do get some time to readit over and think about it, and
then you do have the option toreject it.
So they're certainly notbinding.
(04:45):
I will say something to keep inmind, though, is whatever the
offer is, is the offer.
The offer most of the time, in95% of the cases, is not going
to be modified after.
So if you have the ISC and youget your offer and then you want
to come back the next day withlike, oh, what about this or
this other piece of information?
(05:06):
That's really not going to fly.
So you want to make sure, ifyou do do the ISC, that you're
putting all your arguments outthere, all your evidence,
because once you get that offer,it'll be what it is, and if you
reject it, then you just haveto move to the SOA.
Speaker 2 (05:22):
Perfect segue.
So now we're going to talkabout SOA, which again is State
Office of AdministrativeHearings.
So can you explain to us whatthe difference is between SOA
hearing?
Speaker 3 (05:35):
and an ISC, Keri.
Yeah, so that's something thatI think a lot of people get
confused, because sometimeslicense holders will refer to
ISCs as hearings and they'rereally not.
A SOA hearing is the actualhearing.
It's what you think about whenyou think about a civil case or
a criminal case.
You see something you know onTV.
There's going to be a judge,the agency is going to have that
(05:55):
burden, they're going topresent their case, they're
going to call witnesses, they'regoing to present evidence and
then on the flip side, thelicense holder would have a
chance to cross-examinewitnesses evidence and then on
the flip side, the licenseholder would have a chance to
cross-examine witnesses, calltheir own witnesses and then
present their evidence.
So it's much more like what youwould think of when you hear
the term hearing than an ISC isjust kind of more of an informal
(06:16):
discussion.
Speaker 1 (06:17):
Really great information, Keri.
It definitely sounds like SOAis a more formal setting.
Can you talk to us a little bitabout what license holders can
expect at a SOA hearing?
Speaker 3 (06:30):
Yeah, it definitely is more formal.
Like I said, it's going to feellike what you would think of
for a trial or a hearing.
The ISC might feel kind ofintimidating, especially for
like a license holder andcertainly if they don't have a
lawyer present.
Intimidating especially forlike a license holder and
certainly if they don't have alawyer present.
But it really is a chance forthe licensee to kind of tell
(06:52):
their side of the story, presentany type of evidence they want
or any type of argument thatthey have.
But out of SOA all the rules ofevidence, all the rules of civil
procedure, they all apply.
So it makes a SOA much morerigid, much more litigious, much
more kind of discerning.
Basically, the agency at thetime in which they're at SOA is
(07:14):
not really interested anymore inwhat the license holder has to
say.
Right, they don't really careabout your side of the story.
They're not trying to be nice,they're not trying to resolve it
.
They're generally at that pointat a SOA seeking a revocation
of your license.
So it's much more of a seriousinteraction and, you know, it's
(07:36):
just a lot more of what youwould think of when you would
think of a trial, because of allthe rules and all the deadlines
that have to apply.
Speaker 2 (07:44):
All right.
So how would a licensee holderprepare for an upcoming ISC?
Speaker 3 (07:53):
Sure.
So what normally we would wantto do is there might be, you
know, some drafting.
Like I said, sometimes you'redoing a response or a rebuttal
in conjunction with the ISC, soyou'd want to get your response
together or an updated response.
You'd want to get your evidencetogether or some updated
(08:14):
evidence that the panel hasn'treceived yet, some updated
evidence that the panel hasn'treceived yet, and then generally
what we do is we would shed thelicense holder, meaning we
prepare them for any questionsthat the board members might
have.
Like I said earlier, thebiggest part of the ISC is
really the agency asking thelicense holder any questions
(08:34):
that they have.
Most of the time, in thebeginning of any ISC you'll kind
of hear from the moderator orwhoever is like running the show
.
You know this is your time totell us what happened.
This is your time to likeexplain anything you want us to
know, and so it's really justabout kind of letting the
license holder tell their sideIf you do have an attorney there
(08:57):
, letting the license holdertell their side If you do have
an attorney there.
Obviously, you know if we'rethere, we do provide, you know,
an opening argument or a closingremark.
You know if there's some typeof legal issue that needs to be
addressed, we'll do that.
But generally the primary focusis that they want to hear from
the license holder.
They want to hear what happenedand what they have to say in a
more robust fashion.
(09:18):
Then you can kind of getthrough a written response.
Speaker 2 (09:22):
Sherry, can I ask because I know some of the
clients or viewers may want toknow typically, when a person
has an ISC, how long does ittake normally for an order or an
agreement to be issued?
Speaker 3 (09:35):
So generally most agencies now seem to be issuing
a recommendation at the end ofthe ISC.
That's what happens with theTexas Medical Board, that's what
happens with most BHEK cases.
With pharmacy board cases theyissue the recommendation right
away and then normally it takesmaybe a week or a couple weeks
(09:56):
to get the actual offer down onpaper and then sent over to the
client.
But other agencies can takelonger to do that, can sometimes
take up to like several weeksto get back to you on what the
end result is, which can befrustrating Definitely.
Speaker 2 (10:13):
Thank you for sharing .
Speaker 1 (10:14):
So for SOA hearings, I know that it's more of a you
know, more formal setting and itseems to be that there's a
little bit more that goes intothat hearing than an ISC.
Can you talk to us a little bitabout the difference in
preparation between preparingfor an ISC and preparing for a
(10:34):
SOA hearing?
Speaker 3 (10:36):
Yeah, definitely At SOA, you know, less of the
burden is on the licensee right.
We obviously would prepare them, you know, similar to an ISC,
where we want to prepare themfor their testimony.
But we would also have toprepare our other witnesses.
We would have to preparecross-examinations for the
(10:59):
agency's witnesses.
We have to get our evidencetogether in a much more formal
way.
At SOA the evidence, you know,would be called an exhibit.
We would have to prepare thatin order to try to get it
admitted.
At an ISC right, we're justproviding a response and we're
just dumping all of our evidenceonto the panel.
(11:20):
You know there's nothing that'sgoing to be excluded.
They get to have everything.
But at SOA a judge can makecertain rulings and keep certain
evidence out.
If you're not following youknow the proper procedural rules
or you've missed a deadline orsomething like that, that can
kick evidence out.
(11:43):
So there's just a lot more workthat has to go into that,
because not everything is beingadmitted.
So a witness could be objectedto, an argument could be
objected to, a piece of evidencecould be objected to.
So you're not only working onorganizing everything, getting
things together and presenting acase, but you're also creating
a rebuttal in your head as tosay, if the agency staff
attorney says this or tries toexclude this, what should I say?
(12:03):
And vice versa.
The agency doesn't get to geteverything in admitted either.
So we're having to come up withcertain you know legal
strategies or legal argumentsthat are maybe going to keep a
witness out or a piece ofevidence out on their side.
So I would say that's certainlyyou know.
The more intense part of theSOA is you're really having to
(12:27):
craft these legal arguments.
There's probably a lot ofresearch and you know kind of
case law involved in that thatyou're just not having to deal
with at an ISC, because at a SOAyou're presenting your case to
a judge who is a lawyer and atan ISC you're presenting your
case to just a couple otherlicense holders.
That may not truly be focusedon kind of the niche parts of
(12:50):
the law.
Speaker 2 (12:51):
One thing you also say.
Another difference between anISC and a SOA hearing is
typically the ISCs are held inone day, sometimes maybe in 30
minutes, versus SOA hearings itcould be one to three or four
days.
Speaker 3 (13:09):
Oh yeah, definitely.
I mean timeline is certainly akey factor and a big difference
with an ISC or a SOA.
I mean factor in a bigdifference with an ISC or a SOA.
I mean sometimes ISCs can be,you know, an hour, sometimes
they can be 15 minutes.
You know, if the panel doesn'thave any questions, if it's a
pretty black and white case,sometimes we'll make an argument
, they'll ask the client acouple of questions and then
(13:30):
that'll be that.
But a SOA I mean I've never hada SOA that's less than six hours
.
I mean generally they're allday, sometimes they're half a
day, but they can certainly betwo days in length.
So if you think about it likethat, you know preparing for
something that might be 30minutes versus preparing for
something that might be eighthours, and this is the same case
(13:52):
, right?
Your case hasn't changed.
Your facts are the same.
But that's how procedurallydifferent they are.
And if they're thatprocedurally different, then you
know the amount of work is justgoing to be drastically
different, for you know the twothat is a big difference.
Speaker 1 (14:09):
It's a really big key difference, and I think it's
important for license holders toknow that, especially, you know
, as they're working with theirattorneys or maybe they're pro
se, especially as they'reworking with their attorneys or
maybe they're pro se, and Ithink that's very, very big for
anyone walking into thatscenario to know if a license
holder loses SOA or has anunfavorable outcome, do they
(14:30):
have any options to continuefighting?
Speaker 3 (14:33):
Yeah, so it's a little tricky with
administrative law, butbasically the license holder is
entitled to a hearing with SOA,but the judge is not the final
decision maker.
So basically the judge's job isto make a determination as to
if the agency has met theirburden and if the licensee has
violated a rule.
(14:53):
Some agencies also require thejudge to make a determination on
sanction, but other agenciesdon't ask that.
They just ask the judge to saywas there a violation?
Regardless, the judge puts hisdecision in what's called a
proposal for decision and thenthat proposal gets presented
(15:14):
back to the agency and there,there the agency would make the
final decision on a violationand a sanction.
So at that point, if the agencydecides there are violations
and they sanction the licensee,they would issue a final order
and then the licensee does havesome appeal options.
So the first is, if they issuean order that the license holder
(15:39):
doesn't agree with, then theywould have to file a motion for
rehearing and they wouldbasically file a motion back to
the agency and ask forreconsideration of the order.
For, whatever the case may be,whatever procedural issue or
legal issue they feel is, youknow, occurred during trial,
they have to file that motionfor rehearing and then the
(16:00):
agency would make a decision.
If that motion is denied, thenthey can file what's called
judicial review.
That gets filed in TravisCounty District Court.
So now we're outside ofadministrative jurisdiction and
we're in kind of civil sectorand here they would be asking a
district court judge to reviewthe case and determine if, like,
(16:23):
all the proper procedures andlaws were filed.
And then, if the judicialreview is granted, then the
district court you know hasfound that there was an issue
that the agency didn't do youknow correctly, or the judge
didn't do correctly, then thedistrict court judge would send
it back to the agency andbasically the entire case would
(16:44):
start over again.
Obviously, if you lose atjudicial review, then you know
essentially your case is over.
There's some other appeal youknow situations after that but
generally if the district courtfinds that there was no issue,
(17:07):
then you're kind of stuck withthat order.
But if they, you know, agreewith you, then it sends it back
to the agency.
I think what a lot of peopleneed to remember is the judicial
review is a very uphill battle.
Any type of appeal process isan uphill battle.
The district court judge is notlike re-litigating anything.
You're not getting anything newin.
It's strictly going off of whathappened at SOA.
And, like I said, even if youwin, the case does not get
(17:30):
thrown out.
A lot of people are like, oh,the case just goes away.
No, it just goes right back tothe agency and the agency could
do it all over again if theywanted to.
Obviously, there could be someyou know negotiation at that
point.
Maybe the agency could do itall over again if they wanted to
.
Obviously there could be someyou know negotiation at that
point.
Maybe the agency doesn't wantto have another trial either.
But it's not automatic that thecase would just go away or be
dismissed.
Speaker 2 (17:49):
Wow.
That sounds like a long process.
As we're wrapping up, ms Carey,what would you say is a good
piece of advice for anyone whois facing an ISE or SOA?
Speaker 3 (18:00):
Yeah, advice for anyone who is facing an ISC or
SOA.
Yeah, I guess I would say myadvice would generally be if you
are offered an ISC, I thinkit's helpful to take it Like we
talked about half an hour ofyour time versus eight hours and
the amount of work that goesinto either.
I think it's always kind ofhelpful to try with an ISC.
They're faster If it's lesswork than if you've hired an
(18:23):
attorney.
It's less billable time, soit's, you know, cheaper and it
could get you what you werelooking for without the headache
of a trial.
Remember, the board membersthat are giving you the offer at
the ISC are going to be thesame people that are reviewing
that proposal for decision fromthe judge after a trial.
So a lot of times the endresult may be the same and
(18:46):
that's just something toconsider and talk to an attorney
about when you're trying todecide.
You would hate to go through awhole trial just to come back
and get the same offer that youwere given at an ISC.
And then I'd say probably thebiggest piece of advice would be
that you know you don't want toreally do either of them alone.
I think an ISC might seem moredoable to a license holder
(19:10):
especially maybe even afterhearing this podcast to kind of
do without a lawyer than, say, aSOA hearing right.
I feel like that's generallywhen the client is like, oh why
I need a lawyer.
But you can, you know, say thewrong thing or provide the wrong
evidence at an ISC and then nowyou've really kind of gone and
hurt your case and attorney'sobviously going to be the one to
(19:33):
help you with that.
So I'd say, if you get eitherof those offers, you certainly
want to at least consult with alawyer first before you go ahead
and provide anything over to anagency.
Speaker 2 (19:45):
That's awesome advice , Ms Carey.
We truly appreciate you andyour time and expertise today.
Speaker 1 (19:52):
Yes, absolutely, and thank you to our viewers for
tuning in to Know your Regulator.
Please subscribe, share, followus for more insights on
protecting your license and,until next time, stay inspired
and continue engaging with yourregulatory agency.
Know your Regulator the podcastthat inspires you to engage.
This podcast is for educational purposes only, does
not constitute legal advice anddoes not create an
attorney-client relationship.
If you need legal assistanceabout a legal problem, contact
an attorney.
Welcome to Know your Regulator.
The podcast that inspires youto engage.
I am your host, simone Murphy,and co-hosting with me today is
(00:23):
MJ Hooper.
Today, we're going to talkabout two critical stages in the
administrative process forlicense holders facing
disciplinary action informalsettlement conferences, or often
referred to as ISCs, and theState Office of Administrative
Hearings, or often referred toas SOA.
Speaker 2 (00:42):
Good afternoon ladies .
That's right.
Today we are going to break itall down with our attorney,
carrie Blitzhoff, who has anextensive experience
representing professionalsduring these type of proceedings
.
Speaker 3 (00:54):
Hi, thank you for having me.
I do think this is aninteresting and important topic.
I think a lot of licenseholders are probably confused by
what an ISC is and what a SOAis, so I think this will be
helpful for a lot of people.
Speaker 1 (01:07):
Awesome.
Well, let's get into it.
We'll start with the informalsettlement conference.
Carrie, can you explain what itis and why it happens?
Speaker 3 (01:18):
Yeah, so generally this is like the first stop
during the investigation, oncethe license holder has submitted
a response.
Sometimes the agencies kind ofdo an ISC and a response at the
same time, but most of the timethe license holders probably had
a chance to provide some typeof information in writing, and
(01:40):
then the boards looked at it anddecided that they kind of want
to hear a little bit more, andso they'll send out an ISC
notice.
Sometimes they're mandatory andother times they're optional,
and then some boards actuallydon't have any ISCs at all.
Speaker 2 (01:57):
Thank you for explaining that, Carrie.
Also, I know every agency isdifferent, but can you kind of
give us an idea as to whotypically is present at the ISC
and or the panel members?
Speaker 3 (02:08):
Sure, yeah, like you said, it really depends on the
agency.
Some agencies that are a lotmore formal with their ISCs are
agencies like the Board ofPharmacy, the Texas Medical
Board, the boards foroccupational therapists and
physical therapists.
Those are a little bit moreformal.
(02:29):
They normally have anadministrator, sometimes the
agency's general counsel, that'skind of monitoring or running
the show, and then they'd have astaff attorney that's there
kind of presenting the factsagainst the license holder, and
then sometimes these agencieswill have an investigator or
multiple investigators presentthat worked on the case and then
(02:51):
generally they'll have at leasttwo board members, normally one
public and one license holder.
That would act as board membersthat are kind of listening in
and then conducting the rest ofthe ISC.
Those are kind of the moreformal ones.
They feel a little bit morelike a hearing um, or they would
feel like that to maybe alicense holder, um.
(03:13):
But other ISCs can be much morecasual Um, the Texas uh
education agency, um.
And then the behavioralexecutive council.
Those are a little bit morerelaxed.
They have much less people inattendance.
The ones with Tia is just theinvestigator and then the ones
(03:34):
with BHEC normally have a staffattorney and two board members,
but generally staff doesn't saytoo much and the focus is really
on the questions that the panelhas for the license holder.
Speaker 1 (03:48):
That's awesome information for our viewers to
know, keri.
Thanks for that.
I have probably a burningquestion on some people's minds
Is the outcome of the ISCbinding, or can the license
holder reject it?
Speaker 3 (04:04):
Yeah, that's a really good question and probably
something that a lot of peoplewould think about if they were
deciding whether to take the ISCor not.
Like I said, they're notoptional or they are optional
sometimes.
So somebody might be thinkingabout what happens.
You know if I don't like theresult.
The ISCs are not binding.
The offer generally comes afteryou know the ISC closes.
(04:25):
Binding the offer generallycomes after you know the ISC
closes.
Sometimes it's immediatelyafter.
Sometimes they take somethingunder advisement and you'll hear
back in like a week or so.
But eventually, once you getwhatever that offer is, you know
, you do get some time to readit over and think about it, and
then you do have the option toreject it.
So they're certainly notbinding.
(04:45):
I will say something to keep inmind, though, is whatever the
offer is, is the offer.
The offer most of the time, in95% of the cases, is not going
to be modified after.
So if you have the ISC and youget your offer and then you want
to come back the next day withlike, oh, what about this or
this other piece of information?
(05:06):
That's really not going to fly.
So you want to make sure, ifyou do do the ISC, that you're
putting all your arguments outthere, all your evidence,
because once you get that offer,it'll be what it is, and if you
reject it, then you just haveto move to the SOA.
Speaker 2 (05:22):
Perfect segue.
So now we're going to talkabout SOA, which again is State
Office of AdministrativeHearings.
So can you explain to us whatthe difference is between SOA
hearing?
Speaker 3 (05:35):
and an ISC, Keri.
Yeah, so that's something thatI think a lot of people get
confused, because sometimeslicense holders will refer to
ISCs as hearings and they'rereally not.
A SOA hearing is the actualhearing.
It's what you think about whenyou think about a civil case or
a criminal case.
You see something you know onTV.
There's going to be a judge,the agency is going to have that
(05:55):
burden, they're going topresent their case, they're
going to call witnesses, they'regoing to present evidence and
then on the flip side, thelicense holder would have a
chance to cross-examinewitnesses evidence and then on
the flip side, the licenseholder would have a chance to
cross-examine witnesses, calltheir own witnesses and then
present their evidence.
So it's much more like what youwould think of when you hear
the term hearing than an ISC isjust kind of more of an informal
(06:16):
discussion.
Speaker 1 (06:17):
Really great information, Keri.
It definitely sounds like SOAis a more formal setting.
Can you talk to us a little bitabout what license holders can
expect at a SOA hearing?
Speaker 3 (06:30):
Yeah, it definitely is more formal.
Like I said, it's going to feellike what you would think of
for a trial or a hearing.
The ISC might feel kind ofintimidating, especially for
like a license holder andcertainly if they don't have a
lawyer present.
Intimidating especially forlike a license holder and
certainly if they don't have alawyer present.
But it really is a chance forthe licensee to kind of tell
(06:52):
their side of the story, presentany type of evidence they want
or any type of argument thatthey have.
But out of SOA all the rules ofevidence, all the rules of civil
procedure, they all apply.
So it makes a SOA much morerigid, much more litigious, much
more kind of discerning.
Basically, the agency at thetime in which they're at SOA is
(07:14):
not really interested anymore inwhat the license holder has to
say.
Right, they don't really careabout your side of the story.
They're not trying to be nice,they're not trying to resolve it
.
They're generally at that pointat a SOA seeking a revocation
of your license.
So it's much more of a seriousinteraction and, you know, it's
(07:36):
just a lot more of what youwould think of when you would
think of a trial, because of allthe rules and all the deadlines
that have to apply.
Speaker 2 (07:44):
All right.
So how would a licensee holderprepare for an upcoming ISC?
Speaker 3 (07:53):
Sure.
So what normally we would wantto do is there might be, you
know, some drafting.
Like I said, sometimes you'redoing a response or a rebuttal
in conjunction with the ISC, soyou'd want to get your response
together or an updated response.
You'd want to get your evidencetogether or some updated
(08:14):
evidence that the panel hasn'treceived yet, some updated
evidence that the panel hasn'treceived yet, and then generally
what we do is we would shed thelicense holder, meaning we
prepare them for any questionsthat the board members might
have.
Like I said earlier, thebiggest part of the ISC is
really the agency asking thelicense holder any questions
(08:34):
that they have.
Most of the time, in thebeginning of any ISC you'll kind
of hear from the moderator orwhoever is like running the show
.
You know this is your time totell us what happened.
This is your time to likeexplain anything you want us to
know, and so it's really justabout kind of letting the
license holder tell their sideIf you do have an attorney there
(08:57):
, letting the license holdertell their side If you do have
an attorney there.
Obviously, you know if we'rethere, we do provide, you know,
an opening argument or a closingremark.
You know if there's some typeof legal issue that needs to be
addressed, we'll do that.
But generally the primary focusis that they want to hear from
the license holder.
They want to hear what happenedand what they have to say in a
more robust fashion.
(09:18):
Then you can kind of getthrough a written response.
Speaker 2 (09:22):
Sherry, can I ask because I know some of the
clients or viewers may want toknow typically, when a person
has an ISC, how long does ittake normally for an order or an
agreement to be issued?
Speaker 3 (09:35):
So generally most agencies now seem to be issuing
a recommendation at the end ofthe ISC.
That's what happens with theTexas Medical Board, that's what
happens with most BHEK cases.
With pharmacy board cases theyissue the recommendation right
away and then normally it takesmaybe a week or a couple weeks
(09:56):
to get the actual offer down onpaper and then sent over to the
client.
But other agencies can takelonger to do that, can sometimes
take up to like several weeksto get back to you on what the
end result is, which can befrustrating Definitely.
Speaker 2 (10:13):
Thank you for sharing .
Speaker 1 (10:14):
So for SOA hearings, I know that it's more of a you
know, more formal setting and itseems to be that there's a
little bit more that goes intothat hearing than an ISC.
Can you talk to us a little bitabout the difference in
preparation between preparingfor an ISC and preparing for a
(10:34):
SOA hearing?
Speaker 3 (10:36):
Yeah, definitely At SOA, you know, less of the
burden is on the licensee right.
We obviously would prepare them, you know, similar to an ISC,
where we want to prepare themfor their testimony.
But we would also have toprepare our other witnesses.
We would have to preparecross-examinations for the
(10:59):
agency's witnesses.
We have to get our evidencetogether in a much more formal
way.
At SOA the evidence, you know,would be called an exhibit.
We would have to prepare thatin order to try to get it
admitted.
At an ISC right, we're justproviding a response and we're
just dumping all of our evidenceonto the panel.
(11:20):
You know there's nothing that'sgoing to be excluded.
They get to have everything.
But at SOA a judge can makecertain rulings and keep certain
evidence out.
If you're not following youknow the proper procedural rules
or you've missed a deadline orsomething like that, that can
kick evidence out.
(11:43):
So there's just a lot more workthat has to go into that,
because not everything is beingadmitted.
So a witness could be objectedto, an argument could be
objected to, a piece of evidencecould be objected to.
So you're not only working onorganizing everything, getting
things together and presenting acase, but you're also creating
a rebuttal in your head as tosay, if the agency staff
attorney says this or tries toexclude this, what should I say?
(12:03):
And vice versa.
The agency doesn't get to geteverything in admitted either.
So we're having to come up withcertain you know legal
strategies or legal argumentsthat are maybe going to keep a
witness out or a piece ofevidence out on their side.
So I would say that's certainlyyou know.
The more intense part of theSOA is you're really having to
(12:27):
craft these legal arguments.
There's probably a lot ofresearch and you know kind of
case law involved in that thatyou're just not having to deal
with at an ISC, because at a SOAyou're presenting your case to
a judge who is a lawyer and atan ISC you're presenting your
case to just a couple otherlicense holders.
That may not truly be focusedon kind of the niche parts of
(12:50):
the law.
Speaker 2 (12:51):
One thing you also say.
Another difference between anISC and a SOA hearing is
typically the ISCs are held inone day, sometimes maybe in 30
minutes, versus SOA hearings itcould be one to three or four
days.
Speaker 3 (13:09):
Oh yeah, definitely.
I mean timeline is certainly akey factor and a big difference
with an ISC or a SOA.
I mean factor in a bigdifference with an ISC or a SOA.
I mean sometimes ISCs can be,you know, an hour, sometimes
they can be 15 minutes.
You know, if the panel doesn'thave any questions, if it's a
pretty black and white case,sometimes we'll make an argument
, they'll ask the client acouple of questions and then
(13:30):
that'll be that.
But a SOA I mean I've never hada SOA that's less than six hours
.
I mean generally they're allday, sometimes they're half a
day, but they can certainly betwo days in length.
So if you think about it likethat, you know preparing for
something that might be 30minutes versus preparing for
something that might be eighthours, and this is the same case
(13:52):
, right?
Your case hasn't changed.
Your facts are the same.
But that's how procedurallydifferent they are.
And if they're thatprocedurally different, then you
know the amount of work is justgoing to be drastically
different, for you know the twothat is a big difference.
Speaker 1 (14:09):
It's a really big key difference, and I think it's
important for license holders toknow that, especially, you know
, as they're working with theirattorneys or maybe they're pro
se, especially as they'reworking with their attorneys or
maybe they're pro se, and Ithink that's very, very big for
anyone walking into thatscenario to know if a license
holder loses SOA or has anunfavorable outcome, do they
(14:30):
have any options to continuefighting?
Speaker 3 (14:33):
Yeah, so it's a little tricky with
administrative law, butbasically the license holder is
entitled to a hearing with SOA,but the judge is not the final
decision maker.
So basically the judge's job isto make a determination as to
if the agency has met theirburden and if the licensee has
violated a rule.
(14:53):
Some agencies also require thejudge to make a determination on
sanction, but other agenciesdon't ask that.
They just ask the judge to saywas there a violation?
Regardless, the judge puts hisdecision in what's called a
proposal for decision and thenthat proposal gets presented
(15:14):
back to the agency and there,there the agency would make the
final decision on a violationand a sanction.
So at that point, if the agencydecides there are violations
and they sanction the licensee,they would issue a final order
and then the licensee does havesome appeal options.
So the first is, if they issuean order that the license holder
(15:39):
doesn't agree with, then theywould have to file a motion for
rehearing and they wouldbasically file a motion back to
the agency and ask forreconsideration of the order.
For, whatever the case may be,whatever procedural issue or
legal issue they feel is, youknow, occurred during trial,
they have to file that motionfor rehearing and then the
(16:00):
agency would make a decision.
If that motion is denied, thenthey can file what's called
judicial review.
That gets filed in TravisCounty District Court.
So now we're outside ofadministrative jurisdiction and
we're in kind of civil sectorand here they would be asking a
district court judge to reviewthe case and determine if, like,
(16:23):
all the proper procedures andlaws were filed.
And then, if the judicialreview is granted, then the
district court you know hasfound that there was an issue
that the agency didn't do youknow correctly, or the judge
didn't do correctly, then thedistrict court judge would send
it back to the agency andbasically the entire case would
(16:44):
start over again.
Obviously, if you lose atjudicial review, then you know
essentially your case is over.
There's some other appeal youknow situations after that but
generally if the district courtfinds that there was no issue,
(17:07):
then you're kind of stuck withthat order.
But if they, you know, agreewith you, then it sends it back
to the agency.
I think what a lot of peopleneed to remember is the judicial
review is a very uphill battle.
Any type of appeal process isan uphill battle.
The district court judge is notlike re-litigating anything.
You're not getting anything newin.
It's strictly going off of whathappened at SOA.
And, like I said, even if youwin, the case does not get
(17:30):
thrown out.
A lot of people are like, oh,the case just goes away.
No, it just goes right back tothe agency and the agency could
do it all over again if theywanted to.
Obviously, there could be someyou know negotiation at that
point.
Maybe the agency could do itall over again if they wanted to
.
Obviously there could be someyou know negotiation at that
point.
Maybe the agency doesn't wantto have another trial either.
But it's not automatic that thecase would just go away or be
dismissed.
Speaker 2 (17:49):
Wow.
That sounds like a long process.
As we're wrapping up, ms Carey,what would you say is a good
piece of advice for anyone whois facing an ISE or SOA?
Speaker 3 (18:00):
Yeah, advice for anyone who is facing an ISC or
SOA.
Yeah, I guess I would say myadvice would generally be if you
are offered an ISC, I thinkit's helpful to take it Like we
talked about half an hour ofyour time versus eight hours and
the amount of work that goesinto either.
I think it's always kind ofhelpful to try with an ISC.
They're faster If it's lesswork than if you've hired an
(18:23):
attorney.
It's less billable time, soit's, you know, cheaper and it
could get you what you werelooking for without the headache
of a trial.
Remember, the board membersthat are giving you the offer at
the ISC are going to be thesame people that are reviewing
that proposal for decision fromthe judge after a trial.
So a lot of times the endresult may be the same and
(18:46):
that's just something toconsider and talk to an attorney
about when you're trying todecide.
You would hate to go through awhole trial just to come back
and get the same offer that youwere given at an ISC.
And then I'd say probably thebiggest piece of advice would be
that you know you don't want toreally do either of them alone.
I think an ISC might seem moredoable to a license holder
(19:10):
especially maybe even afterhearing this podcast to kind of
do without a lawyer than, say, aSOA hearing right.
I feel like that's generallywhen the client is like, oh why
I need a lawyer.
But you can, you know, say thewrong thing or provide the wrong
evidence at an ISC and then nowyou've really kind of gone and
hurt your case and attorney'sobviously going to be the one to
(19:33):
help you with that.
So I'd say, if you get eitherof those offers, you certainly
want to at least consult with alawyer first before you go ahead
and provide anything over to anagency.
Speaker 2 (19:45):
That's awesome advice , Ms Carey.
We truly appreciate you andyour time and expertise today.
Speaker 1 (19:52):
Yes, absolutely, and thank you to our viewers for
tuning in to Know your Regulator.
Please subscribe, share, followus for more insights on
protecting your license and,until next time, stay inspired
and continue engaging with yourregulatory agency.
Know your Regulator the podcastthat inspires you to engage.
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