December 10, 2024 • 30 mins
Is public accountability worth the cost of individual reputations? Join us as we continue to examine the teacher certification cheating scandal in Texas, where over 100 educators are embroiled in allegations of fraud. With insights from a panel of top-tier attorneys—Kerry Bloodsaw, LaJuana Acklin, and Troy Beaulieu—we dissect the Texas Education Agency's explosive decision to release the names of the accused teachers, igniting a debate on transparency versus privacy. Hear LaJuana Acklin outline the serious consequences educators could face, while Kerry Bloodsaw navigates the complex web of potential criminal charges lurking ahead.
Our conversation extends beyond the courtroom, exploring the seismic shifts expected within the Texas education system. We tackle the regulatory aftershocks likely to reshape teacher certification processes and scrutinize the role of the Texas Education Agency in enhancing supervision. With a focus on the nuanced legal pathways and the urgency for accused teachers to seek robust legal representation, this episode offers an essential guide for anyone concerned about the future of education and professional integrity. Tune in for a thorough exploration of the scandal’s ripple effects and the anticipated reforms that could redefine educator accountability.
Missed the first episode?
We initially covered this breaking news in Episode 15 of Know Your Regulator. Listen to our previous episode to catch up!
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:01):
This podcast is for educational purposes only, does
not constitute legal advice anddoes not create an
attorney-client relationship.
If you need legal assistanceabout a legal problem, contact
an attorney.
Speaker 2 (00:14):
Howdy and welcome to Know your Regulator, the podcast
that inspires you to engage.
I'm your host, Simone Murphy,and joining me for this
continued coverage is our lovelypanel of attorneys Carrie
Bloodsaw, LaJuana Acklin andTroy Bollier.
In early November, we releasedan episode about a breaking
(00:36):
story where a teachercertification cheating ring
scandal was uncovered here inTexas.
Prospective teachers werepaying to have someone pass the
certification exam so they couldbe granted their teaching
licenses.
New data obtained by TEA showsthat these certification types
ranged from special education tosocial studies, to even
(00:57):
physical education.
Now TEA has released over 100names of the teachers who have
allegedly obtained theirlicenses through fraudulent
means, and we are here to giveyou the scoop.
So we'll start with the name.
Release, Luana, we'll talk toyou first.
I know that this has got to beextremely uncomfortable for some
(01:17):
of these teachers who are named, and a question that I'm sure
is being thrown around is canthey actually release my name?
Can you talk to us about theaccused identities becoming
public and some of therepercussions that can result
from being named in a highprofile case like this?
Speaker 3 (01:36):
Sure, when it comes to investigations, they have the
right to approach theinvestigation how they see fit,
including disclosing the namesof individuals who are being
investigated.
Also, with the State Board ofEducators certification, the
certifications are public, soanytime there is an
(01:59):
investigation against aneducator, anyone can go and look
that up and see that they'rebeing investigated.
So I also think that gives theagency room to release those
names.
So I don't think there'sanything being violated as far
as the educators are concernedwith that release, since that
(02:20):
part of the investigationmeaning that this individual was
being investigated isessentially public anyway.
As far as the individuals thatwere released, it's very
interesting that the TexasEducation Agency, instead of
just posting their names ontheir website, actually released
(02:41):
it to the media, so it's notjust something that's public,
someone can go research.
It's really been disseminatedthroughout the state and even
the country, since this is anational news story and with
(03:02):
that that really puts everyoneon notice as far as what's going
on in the state.
Also, too, it really brings outsome sort of some implications
with these educators A, they'repossibly unqualified and also,
too, I do think that releasingthose names, it helps to shore
(03:24):
up the trust of the public,because the public's trust has
been breached by this scandaland with the names being
released, it really tells thepublic hey, we're here for you,
we're here to protect the publicand protect our children.
Here's one of the ways we'redoing that.
So with those names beingreleased, it implies that these
are the individuals that may bepossibly unqualified, and then
(03:47):
that gives the public and theschool district the wherewithal
of what they want to do withthat information.
Speaker 2 (03:55):
Gotcha, and that makes sense, kind of getting
everybody on the same page,having the public be on the same
page, so to speak, with theinvestigation, the public be on
the same page, so to speak, withthe investigation.
Carrie, can you talk to usabout the potential criminal
charges and the penalties thatthese 100 plus individuals under
investigation may face, and isit likely that the DA goes after
(04:18):
these 100,?
I think there may be 200teachers, some of them have not
been named yet, but is it likelythat the DA's office would go
after them as well?
Speaker 1 (04:29):
Yeah, so that's a really good question.
So yeah, at this point what weknow is TIA released that list
of about 100 names.
But what we know from the DA'sprior statements, kind of the
articles that hit the press whenwe first did our original
podcast, is that there's about100 other participants involved
too.
So at this point, just the kindof original five, that sort of
(04:52):
crafted this criminalorganization, so to speak, have
been charged.
But every teacher that wasinvolved would still fall under
those same charges that theoriginal five were charged with.
So this like conspiracy, thiscriminal group activity, which
is how the DA charged it, isgoing to include all these other
(05:14):
individual participants.
Even though those teachers youknow most likely only
participated one time right theisolated occasion they paid them
, they got someone to take thetest for them they're still
considered part of that criminalentity under the code.
So they definitely are at risk.
And I would say, based on thegravity of the situation and how
(05:39):
the DA has kind of been goingafter the original five thus far
, has kind of been going afterthe original five thus far, I
think it's pretty likely thatcriminal indictments are
forthcoming for these newteachers.
I think what's really workingagainst them is, like I said,
the gravity of the situation.
So there's not going to be ateacher that participated in
(06:01):
this that didn't know that itwas like such a grand scheme,
right, because you wouldn't haveheard about it had you not
known.
Maybe a couple other teachersthat had you know, paid and had
somebody take the test for them,right.
So because of that it kind ofautomatically puts that onus and
(06:24):
intent on the teachers for themto know that this was a big
organization and that, as we see, you know from the release of
names, it's all over Texas, Imean even up into Dallas.
So I think it's going to bepretty difficult for some of
these teachers if they want tokind of try to argue that they
(06:45):
didn't know about this kind ofcrime ring, so to speak, um,
because I think the firstquestion a detective or the da
is going to ask is okay, wellthen, how'd you find out about
it in the first place, right?
So that really kind of putsthat um, criminal intent on
these teachers as well as theoriginal five.
Obviously, in terms of likepunishment or kind of having the
(07:11):
ability to maybe work out abetter plea, these teachers are
going to be in a better positionthan, you know, the five that
created it, but they're stilldefinitely, you know, criminally
liable, just as the other fiveare.
Speaker 3 (07:29):
Gotcha.
Speaker 1 (07:30):
Yeah, these teachers.
If they are aware of that, theyshould definitely be paying
attention if law enforcement are, you know, trying to get in
touch with them.
I would say that probably mostpeople on that list have already
had some type of encounter withlaw enforcement.
Speaker 2 (07:46):
Yeah, and kind of to piggyback off that, what should
an individual do if they doreceive a phone call from the
DA's office or Texas EducationAgency or really anyone kind of
trying to get more informationfrom them about this
investigation?
Speaker 1 (08:06):
Yeah, I think as a lawyer, me, LJ and Troy would
all say call a lawyer, Don'ttalk to anybody.
That doesn't mean that you'renot going to be compliant or
that you're not going to youknow, work with them and provide
the information that you have.
It just means that you shouldtalk to a lawyer first before
you go and say everything aboutwhat you did.
Speaker 2 (08:30):
Troy, I wanted to kind of get your perspective.
How do these investigationsimpact licensing standards and
oversight, and should we expectto see changes within TEA's
testing process, and when mightwe see that change?
Speaker 4 (08:47):
Simone, that's a really good question.
So obviously, anytime you havesomething that kind of makes the
news, especially the nationalnews, that impacts the law and
the regulatory world, you'regoing to see the different
groups of people that areimpacted by that regulatory
(09:09):
world.
They're going to react, youknow.
So I would expect.
You know in January we have thelegislative session coming up
so you may see some statelegislators take positions or
even propose bills in connectionwith this scandal.
You're probably going to seeTEA making some of their own
(09:31):
in-house internal adjustments.
You know they have rulemakingauthority and so they can amend
or supplement or even createentirely new rules.
You know they do have rules onthe books that do address fraud
and cheating and any type ofmisrepresentation in connection
(09:54):
with taking the exam.
There's plenty of robustauthority in the current rules
and in the Texas Education Codeto facilitate them taking
disciplinary action againstlicense holders.
But I do think they're going to.
It just tends to be, you know,when it's on the public's mind
and obviously the public'slooking for some reassurance
(10:16):
that our lawmakers, ourregulators, are aware of, in
constantly adjusting things inorder to account for this.
You know it tends to happen inall kinds of industries when you
have a scandal, a scheme, afraud situation, you know people
are exploiting aspects of thecurrent system.
So there's a tendency to wantto say, hey, what do we need to
(10:38):
adjust and massage so that wecan close that door, prevent
that inappropriate avenue orthat opportunity for fraud or
cheating?
It's not to say that thosekinds of things are going to go
away for good, but you try andwall off and close off those you
know vulnerabilities so that itmakes it harder for people to
(11:00):
commit ethics violations andfraud and engage in criminal
conduct.
So I would definitely expect tosee that as we head into 2025,
especially with the legislaturemeeting.
Speaker 2 (11:10):
Yeah, absolutely, and that makes complete sense.
Really, really great insights.
Y'all Some good stuff.
I do want to shift the focusmore to you know the journey
that some of these accused mayhave ahead of them.
Lj, starting with you, can youwalk us through the general
complaint and investigationprocess?
(11:32):
What kind of timeline are thesefolks on and what do they need
to watch out for when they arenavigating the system?
Speaker 3 (11:40):
Sure.
So just a little bit of context.
Typically with Texas EducationAgency a complaint, you know,
starts with some sort of report,some sort of information given
to the agency about the educatorthat would spark an
investigation.
Typically they're sent a noticeand they have a certain amount
of days to respond to thatnotice.
(12:01):
As I stated earlier, on theircertificate there is a flag that
said this individual is beinginvestigated by the
investigations division.
On that initial notice they getto respond as to why that
should come off and if theydon't respond or they don't give
a proper answer as to why itshould, it typically stays on
(12:21):
until it's their turn to have aninformal settlement conference
before the investigator and theyget to tell their side of the
story.
But in this particular situationwe know that on the criminal
side this has been investigatedfor about four years.
So that information that wasdiscovered during the criminal
(12:42):
process, the names that may havebeen produced, was probably
given over to TIA and thenthat's probably how that
investigation started with theseparticular educators.
So for these 100, they alreadyhave the flag on their
certificate and they're justawaiting the process to be able
(13:04):
to tell their side of the storyto an investigator.
And this is where I think weshould reiterate please call an
attorney, because an attorneycan really navigate you through
the process of how to respond inthis particular situation.
And as far as the timeline,typically the timeline can take
(13:25):
months, but what I foresee sincethis is such a huge deal and
it's statewide and it's madenational news I believe the
agency may shift theirpriorities and focus on this and
they may actually dedicate timeto where it's truncated and it
doesn't take as long to resolvethese particular cases,
especially since they areconnected to a criminal matter.
(13:48):
So, with that said, the bestway to navigate is, of course,
get an attorney, be proactive ingetting an attorney, so we can
guide you through the process totry to get the best outcome in
light of circumstances.
Speaker 4 (14:03):
And Simone, to piggyback on what LaWanna is
saying, you know TEA does haverules that prioritize certain
types of conduct.
Already the core of what theseteachers are being accused of
does fall within those, that toppriority, that first tier types
(14:23):
of offenses.
So LaJuan is exactly right thatTEA already has the
infrastructure in place toprioritize these over maybe some
other complaints or lesssignificant violations.
So I think you know, whenyou've got things going heavy in
the media and you've got alegislative session in ongoing
(14:45):
where you know the legislatorsmay be looking to the agency to
be aggressive and prompt andthorough in responding to these
trust issues, these issues, thatkind of tug at the school
system and the confidence we putin teachers, I suspect you're
going to see quick, swift,moving investigations and
(15:11):
disciplinary action by TEA.
Speaker 2 (15:12):
Good to know, good for our viewers to know too.
And Carrie to LJ's point ofrepresentation.
Can you explain the role of anattorney and how an individual's
rights are protected duringquestioning, hearings and
negotiations?
Speaker 1 (15:29):
Yeah.
So just like if Tia opens acomplaint against you, if you
are indicted or if lawenforcement contacts you, the
burden of proof, the rules, thelaw are different.
Tia's rules are different thanthe penal code, and so it's just
(15:49):
imperative on the criminal sideright when, like we talked
about in the original podcast,if they are charged like the
original five are they arefacing decades of possible
prison time.
You certainly want to havecounsel there with you during
kind of an initial interviewwith a detective or an
(16:10):
investigator.
There's several hearings thatmove once a case gets indicted
and you really need a lawyerthere that's going to be able to
talk to you know, the assistantDAs and kind of negotiate on
your behalf to make sure thatyou know you're keeping this
prison time off the table, right.
(16:31):
I'm sure that's probably thebiggest fear for teachers out
there thinking about a possiblecriminal case, and so when
that's on the line, youdefinitely want to make sure
that you have representation.
So that would probably be mostimportant.
Like Troy mentioned earlier,these rules are in place.
(16:56):
Tia has code sections talkingabout how you can't cheat.
It's a pretty obvious andblatant violation, and so
ignorance is not a defense, it'snot a defense to TIA and it's
not a defense with a criminalcase.
So you certainly want to makesure that you have
representation so that they canfigure out any type of you know
(17:19):
mitigated argument that youmight have.
And I think most you know laypeople, if they were just
contacted and they didn't have alawyer, would sort of fall to
that you know, oh, I, you know,I didn't know or I wasn't sure,
(17:39):
and that's just not going to beyour best bet, especially, you
know, based on the circumstances.
So I think that's kind of whatwould be our prime you know job.
In any criminal attorney'sprimary focus is is looking to
see if they can distinguish yourcase from these other 200
people.
If you have a background storythat kind of caused you to make
this you know poor decision andhave this bad, you know lapse in
(18:03):
judgment, that's going to bewhat an attorney's job is going
to be able to figure that outand then see the best way to you
know, disclose that to you know, in a criminal case, the DA, or
in a TIA case, to the staffattorney involved.
Speaker 3 (18:20):
I want to add on to something that Garrett said.
So, according to reports, youhave teachers that can pass
certification exams, but youalso have teachers that wanted
promotions.
So those teachers probablyalready had certifications but
they wanted a different one tomake more money.
And with that, that's wherehaving an attorney to help you
(18:40):
navigate those specific types ofcases, because those cases may
have more of a consequence thanan individual that may have more
of a Texas education agency ornever had a criminal matter you
(19:07):
know they only paid that one feeto pass this one time versus an
individual that engaged theseindividuals because they wanted
to make more money.
So they may be looked at moredifferently and they may need
they will need an attorney tohelp resolve that in a better
manner than obviously you wouldon your own, because that's a
different yeah, that's adifferent level of dare I say it
, even greed on behalf of aneducator, if that would be their
(19:28):
facts and that they havesubstantial evidence to with the
agency.
Speaker 2 (19:34):
Yeah, absolutely, and some of these accused may be
completely innocent.
And to that, would they stillhave to comply with agency
requests and talk to the agency?
If they're, you know, gettingphone calls or emails, what
(19:54):
might that look like for thattype of individual?
Speaker 1 (19:58):
You definitely wouldn't want to just ignore the
response because you feel likethere's been some type of
mistake and it's not you.
You know there's a TIA rulethat basically says you have to
participate in the investigation.
So any contact that a teacherout there gets, they certainly
need to to respond to, even ifit's just um, to tell them like
(20:24):
here's my you know attorney'sname.
Speaker 4 (20:26):
That's exactly right and I think it's really
important because, like Carrieand LaWanna have said, you know
these cases in some sense aregoing to be very open and shut
right.
They're going to have therecords.
They're going to have thedocuments.
Being a former regulator, I cantell you that state agencies do
(20:47):
a lot of investigating behindthe scenes before anything ever
comes out, and I've participatedin joint regulatory and
criminal investigations andthere's very thorough and
there's a lot of sharing ofinformation.
So when it does finally comeout, they really do have all the
documents, the evidence, thewitnesses lined up how you are
(21:46):
going to have a conversationwith your regulator and
potentially with law enforcementabout this situation that you
find yourself in, and animportant aspect of that is
demonstrating that you languagethey use is cooperate with the
agency's investigation.
They also have another ruleprovision that says you want to
(22:07):
make sure you're not eating intothe impression that you're
leaving with the governmentabout your cooperativeness and
how forthright you're being.
And two, you don't want to thenstep into another basis for
discipline.
You don't want to then stepinto another basis for
(22:27):
discipline.
So then you're not just lookingat you know the cheating
scandal issues, but then, oh,this person's not being
cooperative.
So we're going to add anadditional charge for failing to
cooperate failing to providedocuments, no-transcript, but
(23:19):
they look like they're not beingcooperative.
Maybe we will refer them forcriminal prosecutions.
You don't want things toescalate and get worse, and that
is what always happens when youavoid things.
Speaker 2 (23:30):
Yeah, it sounds like bottom line, innocent, guilty,
consulting with an expertgetting representation to kind
of lay all this out to you know,the investigator, the board,
the DA.
It sounds like that is what isin your best interest.
Like I said, innocent or guilty, don't try and handle this on
(23:53):
your own, absolutely.
Speaker 4 (23:55):
Because, again, you know you wouldn't go in to get
open heart surgery and say, no,nevermind, I'm going to handle
that on my own.
You know, if you need a rootcanal, you go to a dental expert
.
It's the same thing for legalthings.
You know, apart from all thefacts that can get complicated,
there's a whole body of legalprovisions, whether at the
(24:16):
criminal level, the regulatorylevel, that you know teachers
are just not trained in, and soit just you're not going to get
the kinds of results that youwant if you're trying to do that
on your own.
Speaker 2 (24:29):
Yeah, well, as today's episode comes to a close
, I want to kind of go aroundthe panel and if each of you
could just give a key reminderor a key takeaway that you would
like our viewers to know or tojust really have on their top of
mind awareness.
Luana, let's start with you.
Speaker 3 (24:51):
For me, I think, a key takeaway is, of course, you
want to always get an attorney,but better yet, honesty is the
best policy.
Even if you were dishonest, youwere involved with this,
because being honest may get youa better resolution than if you
(25:12):
aren't.
This isn't one of thosesituations.
You want to have your story andstick to it.
If you were involved with this,you want to be as honest as
possible, because they honestlymay get you a better resolution
than than not.
Speaker 2 (25:28):
Yeah, absolutely Carrie.
Speaker 1 (25:32):
Yeah, I definitely agree and, and I would say you
know, like any legal process,especially if you're dealing
with two right, with TIA or witha district attorney's office,
this is a marathon not a sprint.
This is not a fast process and,specifically with TIA, in terms
of a timeline, if you are underinvestigation which most likely
(25:56):
all of these individuals will atleast have a preliminary
criminal investigation your TIAcase is going to be put on hold
until your criminal case isresolved.
So with that, like we know,some of these teachers have been
put on leave, but some of themhave been put in different
positions.
(26:17):
It's kind of imperative to knowthat this is going to be a long
process.
So, whatever you can do to keepyourself in the best position
by, like we said, you know,retaining counsel or at least
talking to counsel before youtalk to law enforcement or
before you talk to TIA, justkind of understanding that you
(26:39):
want to keep the lines ofcommunication open.
You want to respond whenrequested, because this is not
something that's going to wrapup, you know, in a month.
This is something that willprobably be going on for several
months or maybe even into theyears if you're working
alongside TIA and lawenforcement or the DA's office.
Speaker 4 (27:00):
Simone, I would just say to our viewers be proactive
Now.
Whether that means you're oneof these hundred and you need to
be proactive and contact legalcounsel now, even though maybe
you haven't heard from TEA quiteyet, or maybe you're in that
other hundred who haven't beenreleased yet, it's better to get
ahead of things now.
(27:20):
Talk with good legal counselwho knows what they're doing.
If you need to consult with acriminal attorney, they can do
that as well.
But being proactive, you know,and getting information right
Information is power and whenyou have a better understanding
of what's going on, you can makebetter decisions for yourself.
(27:41):
And that may mean you know ifyou're not someone you're a
teacher, but you're not caughtup in this scandal.
You know being proactive islook as we head into 2025, see
what changes may be on thehorizon that could affect you.
If you're a student teacher andyou're about to apply, you know
.
What changes could thelegislature make this session
(28:03):
that come into effect?
What rules might TEA change?
They may change some of theprovisions with their
contractors that provide thetesting services.
So my message really to peoplein the education field is be
proactive, get more involved, beaware of what's going on in
(28:27):
your industry and that gives yousome power and some control
over your career and yourprofession as you move forward.
Whether you're caught up in thescandal or not, it's definitely
an eye-opener on the importanceof staying aware of what's
going on in your regulateduniverse.
Speaker 2 (28:45):
Absolutely, absolutely, I want to add
something to that.
Speaker 3 (28:48):
The Texas Education Agency notified all the school
districts, but they onlynotified them of the educators
that were employed.
That could be a part of thisfrom the 22 and 23 school year
in 23 and 24.
So that means if you moved on,if you no longer work for a
school district, if you're intotally different industry, it
(29:09):
doesn't mean that you're in theclear.
So if you've had acertification with TIA, although
you may not teach anymore, ifthat certificate is still valid,
the Texas Education Agencystill can come after you.
This is a criminal matter.
You can still be prosecuted.
So just because you may notteach anymore, if you were part
of the scandal, you reallyshould still seek legal counsel.
Speaker 2 (29:33):
Wow, yeah, really really great insights there.
I think a lot of people don'trealize that at all.
Well, as today's episode comesto a close, I want to thank you
all so much for your time today.
Thank you for diving deep intothis story with me, and the
story is still ongoing, socontinue to stay with know your
regulator for updates and staytuned for more episodes.
Speaker 1 (29:56):
Thanks y'all know your regulator.
The podcast that inspires youto engage.
This podcast is for educational purposes only, does
not constitute legal advice anddoes not create an
attorney-client relationship.
If you need legal assistanceabout a legal problem, contact
an attorney.
Speaker 2 (00:14):
Howdy and welcome to Know your Regulator, the podcast
that inspires you to engage.
I'm your host, Simone Murphy,and joining me for this
continued coverage is our lovelypanel of attorneys Carrie
Bloodsaw, LaJuana Acklin andTroy Bollier.
In early November, we releasedan episode about a breaking
(00:36):
story where a teachercertification cheating ring
scandal was uncovered here inTexas.
Prospective teachers werepaying to have someone pass the
certification exam so they couldbe granted their teaching
licenses.
New data obtained by TEA showsthat these certification types
ranged from special education tosocial studies, to even
(00:57):
physical education.
Now TEA has released over 100names of the teachers who have
allegedly obtained theirlicenses through fraudulent
means, and we are here to giveyou the scoop.
So we'll start with the name.
Release, Luana, we'll talk toyou first.
I know that this has got to beextremely uncomfortable for some
(01:17):
of these teachers who are named, and a question that I'm sure
is being thrown around is canthey actually release my name?
Can you talk to us about theaccused identities becoming
public and some of therepercussions that can result
from being named in a highprofile case like this?
Speaker 3 (01:36):
Sure, when it comes to investigations, they have the
right to approach theinvestigation how they see fit,
including disclosing the namesof individuals who are being
investigated.
Also, with the State Board ofEducators certification, the
certifications are public, soanytime there is an
(01:59):
investigation against aneducator, anyone can go and look
that up and see that they'rebeing investigated.
So I also think that gives theagency room to release those
names.
So I don't think there'sanything being violated as far
as the educators are concernedwith that release, since that
(02:20):
part of the investigationmeaning that this individual was
being investigated isessentially public anyway.
As far as the individuals thatwere released, it's very
interesting that the TexasEducation Agency, instead of
just posting their names ontheir website, actually released
(02:41):
it to the media, so it's notjust something that's public,
someone can go research.
It's really been disseminatedthroughout the state and even
the country, since this is anational news story and with
(03:02):
that that really puts everyoneon notice as far as what's going
on in the state.
Also, too, it really brings outsome sort of some implications
with these educators A, they'repossibly unqualified and also,
too, I do think that releasingthose names, it helps to shore
(03:24):
up the trust of the public,because the public's trust has
been breached by this scandaland with the names being
released, it really tells thepublic hey, we're here for you,
we're here to protect the publicand protect our children.
Here's one of the ways we'redoing that.
So with those names beingreleased, it implies that these
are the individuals that may bepossibly unqualified, and then
(03:47):
that gives the public and theschool district the wherewithal
of what they want to do withthat information.
Speaker 2 (03:55):
Gotcha, and that makes sense, kind of getting
everybody on the same page,having the public be on the same
page, so to speak, with theinvestigation, the public be on
the same page, so to speak, withthe investigation.
Carrie, can you talk to usabout the potential criminal
charges and the penalties thatthese 100 plus individuals under
investigation may face, and isit likely that the DA goes after
(04:18):
these 100,?
I think there may be 200teachers, some of them have not
been named yet, but is it likelythat the DA's office would go
after them as well?
Speaker 1 (04:29):
Yeah, so that's a really good question.
So yeah, at this point what weknow is TIA released that list
of about 100 names.
But what we know from the DA'sprior statements, kind of the
articles that hit the press whenwe first did our original
podcast, is that there's about100 other participants involved
too.
So at this point, just the kindof original five, that sort of
(04:52):
crafted this criminalorganization, so to speak, have
been charged.
But every teacher that wasinvolved would still fall under
those same charges that theoriginal five were charged with.
So this like conspiracy, thiscriminal group activity, which
is how the DA charged it, isgoing to include all these other
(05:14):
individual participants.
Even though those teachers youknow most likely only
participated one time right theisolated occasion they paid them
, they got someone to take thetest for them they're still
considered part of that criminalentity under the code.
So they definitely are at risk.
And I would say, based on thegravity of the situation and how
(05:39):
the DA has kind of been goingafter the original five thus far
, has kind of been going afterthe original five thus far, I
think it's pretty likely thatcriminal indictments are
forthcoming for these newteachers.
I think what's really workingagainst them is, like I said,
the gravity of the situation.
So there's not going to be ateacher that participated in
(06:01):
this that didn't know that itwas like such a grand scheme,
right, because you wouldn't haveheard about it had you not
known.
Maybe a couple other teachersthat had you know, paid and had
somebody take the test for them,right.
So because of that it kind ofautomatically puts that onus and
(06:24):
intent on the teachers for themto know that this was a big
organization and that, as we see, you know from the release of
names, it's all over Texas, Imean even up into Dallas.
So I think it's going to bepretty difficult for some of
these teachers if they want tokind of try to argue that they
(06:45):
didn't know about this kind ofcrime ring, so to speak, um,
because I think the firstquestion a detective or the da
is going to ask is okay, wellthen, how'd you find out about
it in the first place, right?
So that really kind of putsthat um, criminal intent on
these teachers as well as theoriginal five.
Obviously, in terms of likepunishment or kind of having the
(07:11):
ability to maybe work out abetter plea, these teachers are
going to be in a better positionthan, you know, the five that
created it, but they're stilldefinitely, you know, criminally
liable, just as the other fiveare.
Speaker 3 (07:29):
Gotcha.
Speaker 1 (07:30):
Yeah, these teachers.
If they are aware of that, theyshould definitely be paying
attention if law enforcement are, you know, trying to get in
touch with them.
I would say that probably mostpeople on that list have already
had some type of encounter withlaw enforcement.
Speaker 2 (07:46):
Yeah, and kind of to piggyback off that, what should
an individual do if they doreceive a phone call from the
DA's office or Texas EducationAgency or really anyone kind of
trying to get more informationfrom them about this
investigation?
Speaker 1 (08:06):
Yeah, I think as a lawyer, me, LJ and Troy would
all say call a lawyer, Don'ttalk to anybody.
That doesn't mean that you'renot going to be compliant or
that you're not going to youknow, work with them and provide
the information that you have.
It just means that you shouldtalk to a lawyer first before
you go and say everything aboutwhat you did.
Speaker 2 (08:30):
Troy, I wanted to kind of get your perspective.
How do these investigationsimpact licensing standards and
oversight, and should we expectto see changes within TEA's
testing process, and when mightwe see that change?
Speaker 4 (08:47):
Simone, that's a really good question.
So obviously, anytime you havesomething that kind of makes the
news, especially the nationalnews, that impacts the law and
the regulatory world, you'regoing to see the different
groups of people that areimpacted by that regulatory
(09:09):
world.
They're going to react, youknow.
So I would expect.
You know in January we have thelegislative session coming up
so you may see some statelegislators take positions or
even propose bills in connectionwith this scandal.
You're probably going to seeTEA making some of their own
(09:31):
in-house internal adjustments.
You know they have rulemakingauthority and so they can amend
or supplement or even createentirely new rules.
You know they do have rules onthe books that do address fraud
and cheating and any type ofmisrepresentation in connection
(09:54):
with taking the exam.
There's plenty of robustauthority in the current rules
and in the Texas Education Codeto facilitate them taking
disciplinary action againstlicense holders.
But I do think they're going to.
It just tends to be, you know,when it's on the public's mind
and obviously the public'slooking for some reassurance
(10:16):
that our lawmakers, ourregulators, are aware of, in
constantly adjusting things inorder to account for this.
You know it tends to happen inall kinds of industries when you
have a scandal, a scheme, afraud situation, you know people
are exploiting aspects of thecurrent system.
So there's a tendency to wantto say, hey, what do we need to
(10:38):
adjust and massage so that wecan close that door, prevent
that inappropriate avenue orthat opportunity for fraud or
cheating?
It's not to say that thosekinds of things are going to go
away for good, but you try andwall off and close off those you
know vulnerabilities so that itmakes it harder for people to
(11:00):
commit ethics violations andfraud and engage in criminal
conduct.
So I would definitely expect tosee that as we head into 2025,
especially with the legislaturemeeting.
Speaker 2 (11:10):
Yeah, absolutely, and that makes complete sense.
Really, really great insights.
Y'all Some good stuff.
I do want to shift the focusmore to you know the journey
that some of these accused mayhave ahead of them.
Lj, starting with you, can youwalk us through the general
complaint and investigationprocess?
(11:32):
What kind of timeline are thesefolks on and what do they need
to watch out for when they arenavigating the system?
Speaker 3 (11:40):
Sure.
So just a little bit of context.
Typically with Texas EducationAgency a complaint, you know,
starts with some sort of report,some sort of information given
to the agency about the educatorthat would spark an
investigation.
Typically they're sent a noticeand they have a certain amount
of days to respond to thatnotice.
(12:01):
As I stated earlier, on theircertificate there is a flag that
said this individual is beinginvestigated by the
investigations division.
On that initial notice they getto respond as to why that
should come off and if theydon't respond or they don't give
a proper answer as to why itshould, it typically stays on
(12:21):
until it's their turn to have aninformal settlement conference
before the investigator and theyget to tell their side of the
story.
But in this particular situationwe know that on the criminal
side this has been investigatedfor about four years.
So that information that wasdiscovered during the criminal
(12:42):
process, the names that may havebeen produced, was probably
given over to TIA and thenthat's probably how that
investigation started with theseparticular educators.
So for these 100, they alreadyhave the flag on their
certificate and they're justawaiting the process to be able
(13:04):
to tell their side of the storyto an investigator.
And this is where I think weshould reiterate please call an
attorney, because an attorneycan really navigate you through
the process of how to respond inthis particular situation.
And as far as the timeline,typically the timeline can take
(13:25):
months, but what I foresee sincethis is such a huge deal and
it's statewide and it's madenational news I believe the
agency may shift theirpriorities and focus on this and
they may actually dedicate timeto where it's truncated and it
doesn't take as long to resolvethese particular cases,
especially since they areconnected to a criminal matter.
(13:48):
So, with that said, the bestway to navigate is, of course,
get an attorney, be proactive ingetting an attorney, so we can
guide you through the process totry to get the best outcome in
light of circumstances.
Speaker 4 (14:03):
And Simone, to piggyback on what LaWanna is
saying, you know TEA does haverules that prioritize certain
types of conduct.
Already the core of what theseteachers are being accused of
does fall within those, that toppriority, that first tier types
(14:23):
of offenses.
So LaJuan is exactly right thatTEA already has the
infrastructure in place toprioritize these over maybe some
other complaints or lesssignificant violations.
So I think you know, whenyou've got things going heavy in
the media and you've got alegislative session in ongoing
(14:45):
where you know the legislatorsmay be looking to the agency to
be aggressive and prompt andthorough in responding to these
trust issues, these issues, thatkind of tug at the school
system and the confidence we putin teachers, I suspect you're
going to see quick, swift,moving investigations and
(15:11):
disciplinary action by TEA.
Speaker 2 (15:12):
Good to know, good for our viewers to know too.
And Carrie to LJ's point ofrepresentation.
Can you explain the role of anattorney and how an individual's
rights are protected duringquestioning, hearings and
negotiations?
Speaker 1 (15:29):
Yeah.
So just like if Tia opens acomplaint against you, if you
are indicted or if lawenforcement contacts you, the
burden of proof, the rules, thelaw are different.
Tia's rules are different thanthe penal code, and so it's just
(15:49):
imperative on the criminal sideright when, like we talked
about in the original podcast,if they are charged like the
original five are they arefacing decades of possible
prison time.
You certainly want to havecounsel there with you during
kind of an initial interviewwith a detective or an
(16:10):
investigator.
There's several hearings thatmove once a case gets indicted
and you really need a lawyerthere that's going to be able to
talk to you know, the assistantDAs and kind of negotiate on
your behalf to make sure thatyou know you're keeping this
prison time off the table, right.
(16:31):
I'm sure that's probably thebiggest fear for teachers out
there thinking about a possiblecriminal case, and so when
that's on the line, youdefinitely want to make sure
that you have representation.
So that would probably be mostimportant.
Like Troy mentioned earlier,these rules are in place.
(16:56):
Tia has code sections talkingabout how you can't cheat.
It's a pretty obvious andblatant violation, and so
ignorance is not a defense, it'snot a defense to TIA and it's
not a defense with a criminalcase.
So you certainly want to makesure that you have
representation so that they canfigure out any type of you know
(17:19):
mitigated argument that youmight have.
And I think most you know laypeople, if they were just
contacted and they didn't have alawyer, would sort of fall to
that you know, oh, I, you know,I didn't know or I wasn't sure,
(17:39):
and that's just not going to beyour best bet, especially, you
know, based on the circumstances.
So I think that's kind of whatwould be our prime you know job.
In any criminal attorney'sprimary focus is is looking to
see if they can distinguish yourcase from these other 200
people.
If you have a background storythat kind of caused you to make
this you know poor decision andhave this bad, you know lapse in
(18:03):
judgment, that's going to bewhat an attorney's job is going
to be able to figure that outand then see the best way to you
know, disclose that to you know, in a criminal case, the DA, or
in a TIA case, to the staffattorney involved.
Speaker 3 (18:20):
I want to add on to something that Garrett said.
So, according to reports, youhave teachers that can pass
certification exams, but youalso have teachers that wanted
promotions.
So those teachers probablyalready had certifications but
they wanted a different one tomake more money.
And with that, that's wherehaving an attorney to help you
(18:40):
navigate those specific types ofcases, because those cases may
have more of a consequence thanan individual that may have more
of a Texas education agency ornever had a criminal matter you
(19:07):
know they only paid that one feeto pass this one time versus an
individual that engaged theseindividuals because they wanted
to make more money.
So they may be looked at moredifferently and they may need
they will need an attorney tohelp resolve that in a better
manner than obviously you wouldon your own, because that's a
different yeah, that's adifferent level of dare I say it
, even greed on behalf of aneducator, if that would be their
(19:28):
facts and that they havesubstantial evidence to with the
agency.
Speaker 2 (19:34):
Yeah, absolutely, and some of these accused may be
completely innocent.
And to that, would they stillhave to comply with agency
requests and talk to the agency?
If they're, you know, gettingphone calls or emails, what
(19:54):
might that look like for thattype of individual?
Speaker 1 (19:58):
You definitely wouldn't want to just ignore the
response because you feel likethere's been some type of
mistake and it's not you.
You know there's a TIA rulethat basically says you have to
participate in the investigation.
So any contact that a teacherout there gets, they certainly
need to to respond to, even ifit's just um, to tell them like
(20:24):
here's my you know attorney'sname.
Speaker 4 (20:26):
That's exactly right and I think it's really
important because, like Carrieand LaWanna have said, you know
these cases in some sense aregoing to be very open and shut
right.
They're going to have therecords.
They're going to have thedocuments.
Being a former regulator, I cantell you that state agencies do
(20:47):
a lot of investigating behindthe scenes before anything ever
comes out, and I've participatedin joint regulatory and
criminal investigations andthere's very thorough and
there's a lot of sharing ofinformation.
So when it does finally comeout, they really do have all the
documents, the evidence, thewitnesses lined up how you are
(21:46):
going to have a conversationwith your regulator and
potentially with law enforcementabout this situation that you
find yourself in, and animportant aspect of that is
demonstrating that you languagethey use is cooperate with the
agency's investigation.
They also have another ruleprovision that says you want to
(22:07):
make sure you're not eating intothe impression that you're
leaving with the governmentabout your cooperativeness and
how forthright you're being.
And two, you don't want to thenstep into another basis for
discipline.
You don't want to then stepinto another basis for
(22:27):
discipline.
So then you're not just lookingat you know the cheating
scandal issues, but then, oh,this person's not being
cooperative.
So we're going to add anadditional charge for failing to
cooperate failing to providedocuments, no-transcript, but
(23:19):
they look like they're not beingcooperative.
Maybe we will refer them forcriminal prosecutions.
You don't want things toescalate and get worse, and that
is what always happens when youavoid things.
Speaker 2 (23:30):
Yeah, it sounds like bottom line, innocent, guilty,
consulting with an expertgetting representation to kind
of lay all this out to you know,the investigator, the board,
the DA.
It sounds like that is what isin your best interest.
Like I said, innocent or guilty, don't try and handle this on
(23:53):
your own, absolutely.
Speaker 4 (23:55):
Because, again, you know you wouldn't go in to get
open heart surgery and say, no,nevermind, I'm going to handle
that on my own.
You know, if you need a rootcanal, you go to a dental expert
.
It's the same thing for legalthings.
You know, apart from all thefacts that can get complicated,
there's a whole body of legalprovisions, whether at the
(24:16):
criminal level, the regulatorylevel, that you know teachers
are just not trained in, and soit just you're not going to get
the kinds of results that youwant if you're trying to do that
on your own.
Speaker 2 (24:29):
Yeah, well, as today's episode comes to a close
, I want to kind of go aroundthe panel and if each of you
could just give a key reminderor a key takeaway that you would
like our viewers to know or tojust really have on their top of
mind awareness.
Luana, let's start with you.
Speaker 3 (24:51):
For me, I think, a key takeaway is, of course, you
want to always get an attorney,but better yet, honesty is the
best policy.
Even if you were dishonest, youwere involved with this,
because being honest may get youa better resolution than if you
(25:12):
aren't.
This isn't one of thosesituations.
You want to have your story andstick to it.
If you were involved with this,you want to be as honest as
possible, because they honestlymay get you a better resolution
than than not.
Speaker 2 (25:28):
Yeah, absolutely Carrie.
Speaker 1 (25:32):
Yeah, I definitely agree and, and I would say you
know, like any legal process,especially if you're dealing
with two right, with TIA or witha district attorney's office,
this is a marathon not a sprint.
This is not a fast process and,specifically with TIA, in terms
of a timeline, if you are underinvestigation which most likely
(25:56):
all of these individuals will atleast have a preliminary
criminal investigation your TIAcase is going to be put on hold
until your criminal case isresolved.
So with that, like we know,some of these teachers have been
put on leave, but some of themhave been put in different
positions.
(26:17):
It's kind of imperative to knowthat this is going to be a long
process.
So, whatever you can do to keepyourself in the best position
by, like we said, you know,retaining counsel or at least
talking to counsel before youtalk to law enforcement or
before you talk to TIA, justkind of understanding that you
(26:39):
want to keep the lines ofcommunication open.
You want to respond whenrequested, because this is not
something that's going to wrapup, you know, in a month.
This is something that willprobably be going on for several
months or maybe even into theyears if you're working
alongside TIA and lawenforcement or the DA's office.
Speaker 4 (27:00):
Simone, I would just say to our viewers be proactive
Now.
Whether that means you're oneof these hundred and you need to
be proactive and contact legalcounsel now, even though maybe
you haven't heard from TEA quiteyet, or maybe you're in that
other hundred who haven't beenreleased yet, it's better to get
ahead of things now.
(27:20):
Talk with good legal counselwho knows what they're doing.
If you need to consult with acriminal attorney, they can do
that as well.
But being proactive, you know,and getting information right
Information is power and whenyou have a better understanding
of what's going on, you can makebetter decisions for yourself.
(27:41):
And that may mean you know ifyou're not someone you're a
teacher, but you're not caughtup in this scandal.
You know being proactive islook as we head into 2025, see
what changes may be on thehorizon that could affect you.
If you're a student teacher andyou're about to apply, you know
.
What changes could thelegislature make this session
(28:03):
that come into effect?
What rules might TEA change?
They may change some of theprovisions with their
contractors that provide thetesting services.
So my message really to peoplein the education field is be
proactive, get more involved, beaware of what's going on in
(28:27):
your industry and that gives yousome power and some control
over your career and yourprofession as you move forward.
Whether you're caught up in thescandal or not, it's definitely
an eye-opener on the importanceof staying aware of what's
going on in your regulateduniverse.
Speaker 2 (28:45):
Absolutely, absolutely, I want to add
something to that.
Speaker 3 (28:48):
The Texas Education Agency notified all the school
districts, but they onlynotified them of the educators
that were employed.
That could be a part of thisfrom the 22 and 23 school year
in 23 and 24.
So that means if you moved on,if you no longer work for a
school district, if you're intotally different industry, it
(29:09):
doesn't mean that you're in theclear.
So if you've had acertification with TIA, although
you may not teach anymore, ifthat certificate is still valid,
the Texas Education Agencystill can come after you.
This is a criminal matter.
You can still be prosecuted.
So just because you may notteach anymore, if you were part
of the scandal, you reallyshould still seek legal counsel.
Speaker 2 (29:33):
Wow, yeah, really really great insights there.
I think a lot of people don'trealize that at all.
Well, as today's episode comesto a close, I want to thank you
all so much for your time today.
Thank you for diving deep intothis story with me, and the
story is still ongoing, socontinue to stay with know your
regulator for updates and staytuned for more episodes.
Speaker 1 (29:56):
Thanks y'all know your regulator.
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