November 26, 2024 • 23 mins
Curious about navigating the intricate landscape of licensing and enforcement for massage therapists in Texas? We’re here to guide you through it with insights from our expert guests, Ron Foster and Heather Muehr from the Texas Department of Licensing and Regulation (TDLR). In this episode, we’ll cover everything you need to know about student permits, instructor certifications, and establishment licenses. Whether you’re a Texas-based student, an out-of-state applicant, or an international candidate, we’ll break down how to complete your application accurately and avoid unnecessary delays. With thousands of applications processed annually, this advice is essential for anyone entering the massage therapy field in Texas.
But we don’t stop at licensing. We also explore the critical topic of criminal history disclosure, shedding light on TDLR’s tools like the Criminal History Evaluation Letter, which helps applicants assess their eligibility before applying. Ron and Heather provide practical tips on maintaining clear communication with the TDLR and emphasize the value of legal representation and proactive engagement throughout the regulatory process. Packed with expert advice and actionable strategies, this episode will equip you with the knowledge to confidently pursue your massage therapy career in Texas.
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Heather Muehr is the Director of Licensing at the Texas Department of Licensing and Regulation (TDLR), where she oversees the licensing of 37 professions, that encompass over 200 different license types and almost a million licensees, businesses, and pieces of equipment. Heather has over 29 years of experience in state licensing and regulation. Prior to joining TDLR in 2016, she worked at the Department of State Health Services where she was the Director of several health professions, including the Massage Therapy Program.
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Ron Foster is the Director of Enforcement for the Texas Department of Licensing and Regulation (TDLR). Foster oversees a 120-member team of investigators, attorneys and administrative professionals who receive, investigate, and administratively prosecute complaints about TDLR licensees. He has been the Enforcement Director since December 2019.
Foster has worked at TDLR since August 2009, starting as a Prosecutor and then moving on to be Senior Prosecutor and Chief Prosecutor. Before joining TDLR, Foster was a prosecutor for the Texas Department of Public Safety where he handled cases involving the revocation of driver licenses for individuals arrested for intoxicated driver offenses. He also served in the United States Marine Corps for five years.
Get more information, details and resources on Know Your Regulator - https://www.belolaw.com/know-your-regulator
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Narrator (00:01):
This podcast is for educational purposes only, does
not constitute legal advice anddoes not create an
attorney-client relationship.
If you need legal assistanceabout a legal problem, contact
an attorney.
Speaker 2 (00:14):
Thanks for joining us on another episode of Know your
Regulator, the podcast thatinspires you to engage.
I'm your host, simone Murphy,and co-hosting with me today is
Associate Carrie Bloodsaw.
Hey, carrie, we've got a greatepisode lined up.
We're going to be discussinglicensing and enforcement for
massage therapists in Texas.
(00:35):
Joining us for this exclusivechat is the Director of
Enforcement, ron Foster, andHeather Muir, director of
Licensing, and thank you guys somuch for being with us.
How are y'all doing?
Speaker 3 (00:48):
Doing great.
Thank you for inviting me yes,doing well.
Speaker 4 (00:51):
Thank you for having me as well.
We always enjoy opportunitiesto talk about our programs and
what we do.
Speaker 2 (00:57):
So I think we'll start off kind of at the very
beginning, probably when youfirst come in contact with you
know a young hopeful which wouldbe an application.
How many applications do youguys see over in your department
in?
You know a six-month period ora 12-month period, however you,
you know, collect that data.
Speaker 4 (01:18):
Okay.
So the licensing department isresponsible for four different
license types.
We issue student permits, wealso license massage therapists
and we do massage therapyinstructors who teach in the
schools and we also licensemassage establishment.
I'm going to talk a little bitabout each one of them.
So the students we generallyget about a little over 4,000
(01:42):
applications a year.
About a little over 4,000applications a year.
Massage therapists we get about16,000 a year and that's
initial and renewal Instructorsabout 850 a year, and then
establishments about 2,000 ayear.
Generally initial massagetherapy applicants about 4,000 a
(02:03):
year.
Instructors around 170 a year.
Establishments a little over athousand a year and those are
initials, and then the rest ofthat number would be in renewals
.
So a little over 12,000renewals for massage therapists,
about 650 instructor renewalsand then about 950 establishment
(02:26):
renewals.
Speaker 2 (02:27):
Wow, okay, so you guys are very busy over there in
the application department,especially when you're dealing
with right, just not newapplications but renewals.
And then if you have fourcategories and for our listeners
could you walk them through inyour experience the typical
(02:47):
application process.
We'll get into some of theintricacies or some issues that
could come up, but in general,what could someone anticipate it
looking like?
The general process?
Speaker 4 (02:59):
So at a very high level.
To start off with, we receivean application it's either
through the mail or it's onlineThen we review it to make sure
it meets all of the requirementsand then, if we need additional
information, we send them arequest for information, or RFI
for short and if everything isthere, we issue the license.
(03:21):
And then the license isgenerated and printed and then
it gets mailed out to theapplicant.
Students are pretty easyprocess you have to be enrolled
in the school.
That's it Very, very quick.
When you're talking about amassage therapy license, there
(03:42):
are several ways which they canobtain Texas licensure.
First they would be a.
They would have gone through amassage school in Texas and once
they complete that education,they submit their application.
It's reviewed same process theywould take the Texas, the Texas
examination and then we sendthem a At that point a
(04:06):
fingerprint request because theyhave to be fingerprinted.
Once they get that informationand those instructions, they
schedule that and go do that andthen that gets sent to
enforcement on Ron's team forreview and then, once that's
cleared and they pass the exam,we issue the license.
The second is if they'vecompleted it at, as at a
(04:31):
learning institution, that isprobably not a licensed massage
school, um, like a communitycollege or through some other
method.
They have some college coursesat a college but also then maybe
kind of stitch it together,their education together, to
meet those 500 hours.
They can take the Imblex, whichis an exam that's offered by
(04:55):
the Federation of State MassageTherapy Boards, or they can take
the Texas exam.
But if they already have theirexam scores, they submit that to
us with their application andthen we also have, if they do
take the IMLX, they have to takea jurisprudence exam and that's
a law and rule knowledge forthe state of Texas.
(05:18):
And then we also have a lot ofapplicants that come from other
states, in other countries.
The addition, the one thingthat they have to do, if they're
in another state and they'relicensed in another state, they
have to submit us a letter ofgood standing and licensure from
the state that they're inanother state and they're
licensed in another state, theyhave to submit us a letter of
good standing and licensure fromthe state that they're licensed
in currently.
And so out of country kind ofgets a little more hairy and
(05:39):
technical because they have togo to a credentialing evaluation
service and get that evaluatedthrough them and then submit
that in with their application,evaluated through them and then
submit that in with theirapplication.
There are times when maybe thateducation doesn't meet our
requirements and they have to goback to school and get some
additional education.
But once everything is received, no matter what pathway they go
(06:04):
through, as long as everythingis complete, then we issue that
license.
Instructors same process.
And then establishments massageestablishments their owners
have to be fingerprinted, sothat is an additional step that
they have to go through as well.
But that's generally theprocess that we go through.
Speaker 2 (06:29):
Okay, and so it sounds like you know.
If somebody's going to ask well, how long would this process
take?
Would it be fair to say that itreally seems to be placed on
the applicant to make sure thatthey're getting TDLR everything
that y'all are asking for and,however you know, efficient or
organized they are in thatprocess, would probably be the
(06:51):
number one factor in how slow ortheir favorite application to
process was meaning like whatprogram?
Speaker 4 (06:57):
and the employee's response was a complete
application, no matter whatprogram it is.
So yes, we definitely wantcomplete applications and
(07:21):
overall, we generally will touchan application within two weeks
of it coming to us, if it'sonline, and process it to the
point of completion.
that we can if it's online andwe process it to the point of
completion.
That we can process it to, thatmeans we have reviewed
everything and we either haveapproved it or send an RFI to
the applicant.
If it is mailed in, it takes alittle bit longer to go through
(07:44):
the mail process and then ittouches our finance department
before it comes to us and thenit touches our finance
department before it comes to us.
So yeah, it depends on themethod of submittal and it also
depends on the level ofcompleteness for the application
.
Speaker 2 (07:59):
Okay, so then, looking at some kind of some
common challenges, what are somegeneral issues that you see
applicants having to kind ofdeal with during this process?
Speaker 4 (08:13):
Yeah, that's a good question, so we've talked about
it, we've touched on it.
They're not sending all therequired documents.
They are licensed in anotherstate and they have to submit
that document to us saying thatthey're free and clear, they're
in good standing in that otherstate.
That kind of is a stickingpoint.
Sometimes Applicants whoindicate that they have a
criminal history and then theyhave to complete and submit a
(08:36):
criminal history questionnairethat then goes through our
enforcement division, ron'sdivision, for review.
That takes an additional, alittle bit of additional time in
getting all that correctinformation submitted.
Education equivalency for outof state and out of country
applicants is another kind ofsticking point.
(08:58):
Credentialing review done forout of country applicants, out
of state applicants.
We have this really nifty toolon our website.
You can go and you can from adrop down menu you can select
your state that you're licensedin and it will give you
(09:20):
information about what you haveto meet based on your licensure
in that other state.
So it is pretty cool, wow, okay.
And fingerprinting state.
So it is pretty cool, wow, okay.
And fingerprintingFingerprinting is a process.
Federal law stipulates that wecannot have access to their
(09:41):
fingerprint records until wehave an application.
So we have to wait till theyapply to supply them with that
information and then they haveto go do the process.
So it's going to be very rarethat we're able to process
something fully to completionbecause of that requirement.
Speaker 2 (09:55):
Okay, and so it sounds like, especially for,
like, out of state applicants oror applicants that maybe are
uncertain if they meet y'all'srequirements, sounds like the
first thing that would be veryhelpful for them to do would be
to go and look at that y'all'swebsite and really kind of do
their own research first, beforethey go ahead and just submit
(10:16):
an application without kind offully understanding what they
may need to do.
Speaker 4 (10:20):
Yes, that is correct.
We would say read, read, readand then read again.
There is one more time ofinformation on the Web page and,
even though we encourage onlineapplication processing and
renewal processing, we do offera PDF of our application, and
the first couple of pages onthat application walk through
(10:42):
everything that you need tosubmit, so that is another
really good tool for them to use.
Speaker 2 (11:03):
Okay, yeah, definitely look at that.
Read through that.
Don't skip those first pages tojust start filling out the
application.
Are you seeing that applicantsare disclosing things like
criminal history, or do you runinto an issue where it's not
disclosed and now it's kind of aworse case because the
(11:23):
applicant wasn't honest?
Speaker 3 (11:25):
and they do submit the application in good faith.
They're trying to provide ourlicensing team everything that
they need and they do try toprovide the criminal history
questionnaire in full.
Sometimes there are issues withthe questionnaire that we get
and we have to do our own RFIletter requesting them to
(11:50):
provide more completeinformation and unfortunately,
there are always going to besome folks that try to get
around the system and think thatif they don't disclose
something, they're going to getaway with something.
They won't.
We check criminal histories oneveryone, so I would say that
(12:20):
most of the, I guess, challengesthat you see with the criminal
histories are things that wefind going through our normal
criminal history process, but Idon't think it's intentional
deception from most people.
Speaker 2 (12:25):
Well, that's good to hear, Kind of in that same line
(12:46):
of questioning is there anyprior criminal history or
anything?
That's an automatic disclosure,like our listeners should know.
Hey,
Speaker 3 (12:51):
right now may be true right now, but it may not be in
the future.
And we've had changes recentlyin the law that eliminated some
of the restrictions on who canget a license and who cannot.
So, for example, right now ifyou're trying to get a massage
establishment license, if you'rea sexually oriented business,
you can't get a license.
The law strictly does not allowthat.
(13:13):
But for the most part, whatwe're going to do is we're going
to look at our criminal historyguidelines and we're going to
apply those guidelines that wehave for every one of our
programs and we're going to seeif the crime that the person
committed falls within thoseguidelines.
So is it something about goingagainst a person like a crime
against a person, kidnapping orhomicide or assault?
(13:35):
Is it a crime involving somekind of sexual conduct or a
crime against a child or a crimeinvolving human trafficking?
What we're going to do, carrie,in those situations is we're
going to go ahead and reviewthat, open up a case, most
likely, and give that person anopportunity to request a hearing
(13:55):
on their case.
We generally do notautomatically disqualify.
When I hear the term automaticdisqualify in my mind I think of
no due process, no hearing.
We don't do that.
We usually almost every kind ofcrime unless the law
specifically says you can't havea license, like the sexually
(14:17):
oriented business we're going togive you an opportunity to have
a contested hearing no, itseems like TDLR has a good
amount of discretion andeventually they could have their
day in court, so to speak, toreally argue for why they think
(14:38):
they should have a license.
Exactly, and I'll be happy totalk about some of those
statistics, because the numbersthat get denied really are quite
small.
Speaker 2 (14:47):
And it sounds like that from what Heather was
saying earlier.
Speaker 4 (14:51):
I don't think I heard Ron touch on this.
We do have a process called acriminal history evaluation
letter that if someone does havea criminal history they can
actually request a review beforesubmitting their application or
before going to school.
Even Our licensed Texas massageschools are required to tell
(15:16):
potential applicants of therisks of having a criminal
history and explain that processto them.
So before they even go downthat road, if they do feel like
there's a potential or they havea question, I would strongly
advise them to use that toolbefore going to school even.
Speaker 2 (15:35):
Okay, yeah, that does .
I don't think we touched onthat, but that certainly is
helpful and again, I think kindof just goes to the totality of
what you have been talking about, which is like kind of doing
your own research and putting inyour due diligence first before
going ahead and just throwingtogether an application.
Really understanding what youneed to do and what TDLR needs
(15:58):
from you, getting everythingtogether and then starting the
process seems like the best wayto go.
Speaker 3 (16:04):
I would like to add one point about that criminal
history evaluation letter thatHeather mentioned is it's very
affordable.
I think it's a $10 fee rightnow, which is much less than
many of the license applicationfees and obviously much less
than paying to go to school andthen finding out later that you
can't get a license.
Speaker 2 (16:24):
Yeah, oh, okay, yeah, that's definitely the way to go
.
Then, if anybody has questions,I know that, Ron, we have
another episode that you knowtalks solely about enforcement,
and so I think some of thesemore general questions can be
answered there.
But I'd like to kind of hone inon the massage therapy
(16:46):
department, and you know, arethere any things that you are
seeing in the enforcementdivision that kind of stand out
as far as complaints go?
Are there, you know, commonissues that these licensees are
facing?
Speaker 3 (17:04):
Thank you, simone.
Let me start off by giving ashout out to our website,
tdlrtexasgov.
All of the information that I'mgoing to provide is under the
complaints and enforcementsection, so you can go and look
at these statistics.
It's publicly availableinformation.
There's also all kinds oflicensing information on our
website for each one of theprograms, so tdlrtexasgov is the
(17:28):
place to go.
It's a really good question,Simone.
We do have some common issues.
So what happens is usually whena complaint gets filed, we open
the case based upon theallegations that are alleged.
As you can imagine, sometimesthose allegations are not true.
They're just what people aretelling us, and so what we see
(17:51):
is we have trends in the case,types of cases that are being
filed with us.
We see violations that areunlicensed activity, unlicensed
establishments.
Unfortunately, there's quite abit of sexual misconduct type of
activity that we see that'shappening where the client,
which is non-consensual, andthen of course, there is some
(18:13):
misconduct that is consensualconduct.
That's going on as well, butit's also illegal to be doing in
a massage therapy setting.
So those are the most commontype of violations we see.
We do see some administrativetype of violations with the
paperwork, the consultationdocuments and such that get
filed.
So those are all theallegations we see at the
(18:35):
opening.
When it comes to thedisciplinary actions that we
issue, we tend to kind of focuson the more serious public
health risks.
So the sexual misconduct, thehuman trafficking, is a big
issue for us right now.
Of activity, unlicensedactivity from the establishment
(18:56):
and establishments that allowunlicensed persons to work there
, those are the big trends thatwe see right now in the massage
industry.
Speaker 2 (19:04):
Gotcha, yeah, yeah, no, and that would make sense.
Are these complaints generallykind of like we were talking
about earlier?
Are these initiated by TDLRearlier?
Are these initiated by TDLR?
Are you guys seeing some ofthese things and getting tips,
(19:28):
or are these, you know, victimsthat are coming forward or you?
Speaker 3 (19:31):
know consumers that are submitting these complaints.
So in the last so I'll just runthrough some statistics real
quick In fiscal year 23, we had608 consumer complaints and in
fiscal year 24, we had 840consumer complaints.
We also do departmentinspections of the massage
establishments in this program.
So we had 566 cases that wereopen because of department
(19:54):
inspections and 585 that wereopen in fiscal year 24.
So the bottom line is we get apretty substantial number of
people that are complaining tous.
There are a lot of people thatstep forward when they've been
assaulted or when they've hadsomething inappropriate happen.
Our inspections team does avery good job of getting out
(20:15):
there and inspecting theselocations and looking for
indicators of human trafficking,which is actually required in
many of these for theseestablishments to have signs up
to advise people about thedanger of human trafficking.
So that's something we'relooking for and we open up a
pretty good number of cases onour own.
Based upon that.
Speaker 2 (20:35):
What advice?
would you have for theselicensees that are receiving
complaints?
You know, like you said,sometimes they know that they've
done nothing wrong and they'recompletely innocent.
Do they still have to gothrough this process?
Speaker 3 (20:50):
They really do, simone.
They need to engage with us.
I know it's the big badgovernment sometimes is the way
people look at us, but we'rehere to really do a fair and
unbiased investigation.
That's what I expect of my teammembers.
So when that complaint comes inthe door, we don't know what
the truth is.
Right, we need to interview theinvestigators are interviewing
(21:12):
the witnesses and interviewingthe complainant and the
respondent.
They need to be who is thelicensee.
They need to be who is thelicensee.
Usually they need to respond tous, and so the worst thing that
they can do is just to ignorethat letter or that phone call
that comes from us asking forthem to you know.
Allow us to ask them somequestions or provide us some
(21:33):
documents.
Speaker 2 (21:34):
What do you generally see, that is, you know, is
productive or is not productivein providing a response?
Speaker 3 (21:41):
Well getting in contact with us or responding to
the calls that we have.
Usually what happens is we'rerequesting some documents or
something your side of the storyor maybe some kind of business
record.
So when they produce that,that's helpful.
But I want to do back up andsay when they do retain a lawyer
(22:02):
, it's very important that theyreach out and they let us know
that they've done that, becausea lot of times respondents are
dealing directly with ourattorney or our investigator and
they're not letting us knowwhether or not they have
representation.
So it's very important from ourperspective that if they do
(22:22):
have representation, that we'redealing with the attorney that
we're asking our request throughthe attorney, and the attorney
very often is able to explain tothe respondent what the
violations are that are allegedor what documents are needed to
come into compliance.
Speaker 2 (22:39):
Yes, and I, as an attorney, would also like to
tell listeners if you've hiredan attorney, please tell TDLR,
don't keep talking to them.
Well, as today's episode comesto a close, I really want to
highlight the importance of notonly being proactive when you're
applying for your license, but,you know, also when you're
experiencing some issues too.
Thanks again, Ron and Heather,for being with us today.
(23:01):
We really appreciate you guystaking some time.
Speaker 3 (23:05):
Thank you.
Speaker 2 (23:06):
Yes, thank you guys so much.
I think we've just reallyexplained to people that you are
.
You know PDLR is encouragingthem to reach out to look at the
website, to look at the you, tolook at the actual applications
, follow their own instructions,and I think this process could
be really really easy for somefolks.
So, thank you guys so much.
Thank you
Narrator (23:28):
Know your Regulator the podcast that inspires you to
engage.
This podcast is for educational purposes only, does
not constitute legal advice anddoes not create an
attorney-client relationship.
If you need legal assistanceabout a legal problem, contact
an attorney.
Speaker 2 (00:14):
Thanks for joining us on another episode of Know your
Regulator, the podcast thatinspires you to engage.
I'm your host, simone Murphy,and co-hosting with me today is
Associate Carrie Bloodsaw.
Hey, carrie, we've got a greatepisode lined up.
We're going to be discussinglicensing and enforcement for
massage therapists in Texas.
(00:35):
Joining us for this exclusivechat is the Director of
Enforcement, ron Foster, andHeather Muir, director of
Licensing, and thank you guys somuch for being with us.
How are y'all doing?
Speaker 3 (00:48):
Doing great.
Thank you for inviting me yes,doing well.
Speaker 4 (00:51):
Thank you for having me as well.
We always enjoy opportunitiesto talk about our programs and
what we do.
Speaker 2 (00:57):
So I think we'll start off kind of at the very
beginning, probably when youfirst come in contact with you
know a young hopeful which wouldbe an application.
How many applications do youguys see over in your department
in?
You know a six-month period ora 12-month period, however you,
you know, collect that data.
Speaker 4 (01:18):
Okay.
So the licensing department isresponsible for four different
license types.
We issue student permits, wealso license massage therapists
and we do massage therapyinstructors who teach in the
schools and we also licensemassage establishment.
I'm going to talk a little bitabout each one of them.
So the students we generallyget about a little over 4,000
(01:42):
applications a year.
About a little over 4,000applications a year.
Massage therapists we get about16,000 a year and that's
initial and renewal Instructorsabout 850 a year, and then
establishments about 2,000 ayear.
Generally initial massagetherapy applicants about 4,000 a
(02:03):
year.
Instructors around 170 a year.
Establishments a little over athousand a year and those are
initials, and then the rest ofthat number would be in renewals
.
So a little over 12,000renewals for massage therapists,
about 650 instructor renewalsand then about 950 establishment
(02:26):
renewals.
Speaker 2 (02:27):
Wow, okay, so you guys are very busy over there in
the application department,especially when you're dealing
with right, just not newapplications but renewals.
And then if you have fourcategories and for our listeners
could you walk them through inyour experience the typical
(02:47):
application process.
We'll get into some of theintricacies or some issues that
could come up, but in general,what could someone anticipate it
looking like?
The general process?
Speaker 4 (02:59):
So at a very high level.
To start off with, we receivean application it's either
through the mail or it's onlineThen we review it to make sure
it meets all of the requirementsand then, if we need additional
information, we send them arequest for information, or RFI
for short and if everything isthere, we issue the license.
(03:21):
And then the license isgenerated and printed and then
it gets mailed out to theapplicant.
Students are pretty easyprocess you have to be enrolled
in the school.
That's it Very, very quick.
When you're talking about amassage therapy license, there
(03:42):
are several ways which they canobtain Texas licensure.
First they would be a.
They would have gone through amassage school in Texas and once
they complete that education,they submit their application.
It's reviewed same process theywould take the Texas, the Texas
examination and then we sendthem a At that point a
(04:06):
fingerprint request because theyhave to be fingerprinted.
Once they get that informationand those instructions, they
schedule that and go do that andthen that gets sent to
enforcement on Ron's team forreview and then, once that's
cleared and they pass the exam,we issue the license.
The second is if they'vecompleted it at, as at a
(04:31):
learning institution, that isprobably not a licensed massage
school, um, like a communitycollege or through some other
method.
They have some college coursesat a college but also then maybe
kind of stitch it together,their education together, to
meet those 500 hours.
They can take the Imblex, whichis an exam that's offered by
(04:55):
the Federation of State MassageTherapy Boards, or they can take
the Texas exam.
But if they already have theirexam scores, they submit that to
us with their application andthen we also have, if they do
take the IMLX, they have to takea jurisprudence exam and that's
a law and rule knowledge forthe state of Texas.
(05:18):
And then we also have a lot ofapplicants that come from other
states, in other countries.
The addition, the one thingthat they have to do, if they're
in another state and they'relicensed in another state, they
have to submit us a letter ofgood standing and licensure from
the state that they're inanother state and they're
licensed in another state, theyhave to submit us a letter of
good standing and licensure fromthe state that they're licensed
in currently.
And so out of country kind ofgets a little more hairy and
(05:39):
technical because they have togo to a credentialing evaluation
service and get that evaluatedthrough them and then submit
that in with their application,evaluated through them and then
submit that in with theirapplication.
There are times when maybe thateducation doesn't meet our
requirements and they have to goback to school and get some
additional education.
But once everything is received, no matter what pathway they go
(06:04):
through, as long as everythingis complete, then we issue that
license.
Instructors same process.
And then establishments massageestablishments their owners
have to be fingerprinted, sothat is an additional step that
they have to go through as well.
But that's generally theprocess that we go through.
Speaker 2 (06:29):
Okay, and so it sounds like you know.
If somebody's going to ask well, how long would this process
take?
Would it be fair to say that itreally seems to be placed on
the applicant to make sure thatthey're getting TDLR everything
that y'all are asking for and,however you know, efficient or
organized they are in thatprocess, would probably be the
(06:51):
number one factor in how slow ortheir favorite application to
process was meaning like whatprogram?
Speaker 4 (06:57):
and the employee's response was a complete
application, no matter whatprogram it is.
So yes, we definitely wantcomplete applications and
(07:21):
overall, we generally will touchan application within two weeks
of it coming to us, if it'sonline, and process it to the
point of completion.
that we can if it's online andwe process it to the point of
completion.
That we can process it to, thatmeans we have reviewed
everything and we either haveapproved it or send an RFI to
the applicant.
If it is mailed in, it takes alittle bit longer to go through
(07:44):
the mail process and then ittouches our finance department
before it comes to us and thenit touches our finance
department before it comes to us.
So yeah, it depends on themethod of submittal and it also
depends on the level ofcompleteness for the application
.
Speaker 2 (07:59):
Okay, so then, looking at some kind of some
common challenges, what are somegeneral issues that you see
applicants having to kind ofdeal with during this process?
Speaker 4 (08:13):
Yeah, that's a good question, so we've talked about
it, we've touched on it.
They're not sending all therequired documents.
They are licensed in anotherstate and they have to submit
that document to us saying thatthey're free and clear, they're
in good standing in that otherstate.
That kind of is a stickingpoint.
Sometimes Applicants whoindicate that they have a
criminal history and then theyhave to complete and submit a
(08:36):
criminal history questionnairethat then goes through our
enforcement division, ron'sdivision, for review.
That takes an additional, alittle bit of additional time in
getting all that correctinformation submitted.
Education equivalency for outof state and out of country
applicants is another kind ofsticking point.
(08:58):
Credentialing review done forout of country applicants, out
of state applicants.
We have this really nifty toolon our website.
You can go and you can from adrop down menu you can select
your state that you're licensedin and it will give you
(09:20):
information about what you haveto meet based on your licensure
in that other state.
So it is pretty cool, wow, okay.
And fingerprinting state.
So it is pretty cool, wow, okay.
And fingerprintingFingerprinting is a process.
Federal law stipulates that wecannot have access to their
(09:41):
fingerprint records until wehave an application.
So we have to wait till theyapply to supply them with that
information and then they haveto go do the process.
So it's going to be very rarethat we're able to process
something fully to completionbecause of that requirement.
Speaker 2 (09:55):
Okay, and so it sounds like, especially for,
like, out of state applicants oror applicants that maybe are
uncertain if they meet y'all'srequirements, sounds like the
first thing that would be veryhelpful for them to do would be
to go and look at that y'all'swebsite and really kind of do
their own research first, beforethey go ahead and just submit
(10:16):
an application without kind offully understanding what they
may need to do.
Speaker 4 (10:20):
Yes, that is correct.
We would say read, read, readand then read again.
There is one more time ofinformation on the Web page and,
even though we encourage onlineapplication processing and
renewal processing, we do offera PDF of our application, and
the first couple of pages onthat application walk through
(10:42):
everything that you need tosubmit, so that is another
really good tool for them to use.
Speaker 2 (11:03):
Okay, yeah, definitely look at that.
Read through that.
Don't skip those first pages tojust start filling out the
application.
Are you seeing that applicantsare disclosing things like
criminal history, or do you runinto an issue where it's not
disclosed and now it's kind of aworse case because the
(11:23):
applicant wasn't honest?
Speaker 3 (11:25):
and they do submit the application in good faith.
They're trying to provide ourlicensing team everything that
they need and they do try toprovide the criminal history
questionnaire in full.
Sometimes there are issues withthe questionnaire that we get
and we have to do our own RFIletter requesting them to
(11:50):
provide more completeinformation and unfortunately,
there are always going to besome folks that try to get
around the system and think thatif they don't disclose
something, they're going to getaway with something.
They won't.
We check criminal histories oneveryone, so I would say that
(12:20):
most of the, I guess, challengesthat you see with the criminal
histories are things that wefind going through our normal
criminal history process, but Idon't think it's intentional
deception from most people.
Speaker 2 (12:25):
Well, that's good to hear, Kind of in that same line
(12:46):
of questioning is there anyprior criminal history or
anything?
That's an automatic disclosure,like our listeners should know.
Hey,
Speaker 3 (12:51):
right now may be true right now, but it may not be in
the future.
And we've had changes recentlyin the law that eliminated some
of the restrictions on who canget a license and who cannot.
So, for example, right now ifyou're trying to get a massage
establishment license, if you'rea sexually oriented business,
you can't get a license.
The law strictly does not allowthat.
(13:13):
But for the most part, whatwe're going to do is we're going
to look at our criminal historyguidelines and we're going to
apply those guidelines that wehave for every one of our
programs and we're going to seeif the crime that the person
committed falls within thoseguidelines.
So is it something about goingagainst a person like a crime
against a person, kidnapping orhomicide or assault?
(13:35):
Is it a crime involving somekind of sexual conduct or a
crime against a child or a crimeinvolving human trafficking?
What we're going to do, carrie,in those situations is we're
going to go ahead and reviewthat, open up a case, most
likely, and give that person anopportunity to request a hearing
(13:55):
on their case.
We generally do notautomatically disqualify.
When I hear the term automaticdisqualify in my mind I think of
no due process, no hearing.
We don't do that.
We usually almost every kind ofcrime unless the law
specifically says you can't havea license, like the sexually
(14:17):
oriented business we're going togive you an opportunity to have
a contested hearing no, itseems like TDLR has a good
amount of discretion andeventually they could have their
day in court, so to speak, toreally argue for why they think
(14:38):
they should have a license.
Exactly, and I'll be happy totalk about some of those
statistics, because the numbersthat get denied really are quite
small.
Speaker 2 (14:47):
And it sounds like that from what Heather was
saying earlier.
Speaker 4 (14:51):
I don't think I heard Ron touch on this.
We do have a process called acriminal history evaluation
letter that if someone does havea criminal history they can
actually request a review beforesubmitting their application or
before going to school.
Even Our licensed Texas massageschools are required to tell
(15:16):
potential applicants of therisks of having a criminal
history and explain that processto them.
So before they even go downthat road, if they do feel like
there's a potential or they havea question, I would strongly
advise them to use that toolbefore going to school even.
Speaker 2 (15:35):
Okay, yeah, that does .
I don't think we touched onthat, but that certainly is
helpful and again, I think kindof just goes to the totality of
what you have been talking about, which is like kind of doing
your own research and putting inyour due diligence first before
going ahead and just throwingtogether an application.
Really understanding what youneed to do and what TDLR needs
(15:58):
from you, getting everythingtogether and then starting the
process seems like the best wayto go.
Speaker 3 (16:04):
I would like to add one point about that criminal
history evaluation letter thatHeather mentioned is it's very
affordable.
I think it's a $10 fee rightnow, which is much less than
many of the license applicationfees and obviously much less
than paying to go to school andthen finding out later that you
can't get a license.
Speaker 2 (16:24):
Yeah, oh, okay, yeah, that's definitely the way to go
.
Then, if anybody has questions,I know that, Ron, we have
another episode that you knowtalks solely about enforcement,
and so I think some of thesemore general questions can be
answered there.
But I'd like to kind of hone inon the massage therapy
(16:46):
department, and you know, arethere any things that you are
seeing in the enforcementdivision that kind of stand out
as far as complaints go?
Are there, you know, commonissues that these licensees are
facing?
Speaker 3 (17:04):
Thank you, simone.
Let me start off by giving ashout out to our website,
tdlrtexasgov.
All of the information that I'mgoing to provide is under the
complaints and enforcementsection, so you can go and look
at these statistics.
It's publicly availableinformation.
There's also all kinds oflicensing information on our
website for each one of theprograms, so tdlrtexasgov is the
(17:28):
place to go.
It's a really good question,Simone.
We do have some common issues.
So what happens is usually whena complaint gets filed, we open
the case based upon theallegations that are alleged.
As you can imagine, sometimesthose allegations are not true.
They're just what people aretelling us, and so what we see
(17:51):
is we have trends in the case,types of cases that are being
filed with us.
We see violations that areunlicensed activity, unlicensed
establishments.
Unfortunately, there's quite abit of sexual misconduct type of
activity that we see that'shappening where the client,
which is non-consensual, andthen of course, there is some
(18:13):
misconduct that is consensualconduct.
That's going on as well, butit's also illegal to be doing in
a massage therapy setting.
So those are the most commontype of violations we see.
We do see some administrativetype of violations with the
paperwork, the consultationdocuments and such that get
filed.
So those are all theallegations we see at the
(18:35):
opening.
When it comes to thedisciplinary actions that we
issue, we tend to kind of focuson the more serious public
health risks.
So the sexual misconduct, thehuman trafficking, is a big
issue for us right now.
Of activity, unlicensedactivity from the establishment
(18:56):
and establishments that allowunlicensed persons to work there
, those are the big trends thatwe see right now in the massage
industry.
Speaker 2 (19:04):
Gotcha, yeah, yeah, no, and that would make sense.
Are these complaints generallykind of like we were talking
about earlier?
Are these initiated by TDLRearlier?
Are these initiated by TDLR?
Are you guys seeing some ofthese things and getting tips,
(19:28):
or are these, you know, victimsthat are coming forward or you?
Speaker 3 (19:31):
know consumers that are submitting these complaints.
So in the last so I'll just runthrough some statistics real
quick In fiscal year 23, we had608 consumer complaints and in
fiscal year 24, we had 840consumer complaints.
We also do departmentinspections of the massage
establishments in this program.
So we had 566 cases that wereopen because of department
(19:54):
inspections and 585 that wereopen in fiscal year 24.
So the bottom line is we get apretty substantial number of
people that are complaining tous.
There are a lot of people thatstep forward when they've been
assaulted or when they've hadsomething inappropriate happen.
Our inspections team does avery good job of getting out
(20:15):
there and inspecting theselocations and looking for
indicators of human trafficking,which is actually required in
many of these for theseestablishments to have signs up
to advise people about thedanger of human trafficking.
So that's something we'relooking for and we open up a
pretty good number of cases onour own.
Based upon that.
Speaker 2 (20:35):
What advice?
would you have for theselicensees that are receiving
complaints?
You know, like you said,sometimes they know that they've
done nothing wrong and they'recompletely innocent.
Do they still have to gothrough this process?
Speaker 3 (20:50):
They really do, simone.
They need to engage with us.
I know it's the big badgovernment sometimes is the way
people look at us, but we'rehere to really do a fair and
unbiased investigation.
That's what I expect of my teammembers.
So when that complaint comes inthe door, we don't know what
the truth is.
Right, we need to interview theinvestigators are interviewing
(21:12):
the witnesses and interviewingthe complainant and the
respondent.
They need to be who is thelicensee.
They need to be who is thelicensee.
Usually they need to respond tous, and so the worst thing that
they can do is just to ignorethat letter or that phone call
that comes from us asking forthem to you know.
Allow us to ask them somequestions or provide us some
(21:33):
documents.
Speaker 2 (21:34):
What do you generally see, that is, you know, is
productive or is not productivein providing a response?
Speaker 3 (21:41):
Well getting in contact with us or responding to
the calls that we have.
Usually what happens is we'rerequesting some documents or
something your side of the storyor maybe some kind of business
record.
So when they produce that,that's helpful.
But I want to do back up andsay when they do retain a lawyer
(22:02):
, it's very important that theyreach out and they let us know
that they've done that, becausea lot of times respondents are
dealing directly with ourattorney or our investigator and
they're not letting us knowwhether or not they have
representation.
So it's very important from ourperspective that if they do
(22:22):
have representation, that we'redealing with the attorney that
we're asking our request throughthe attorney, and the attorney
very often is able to explain tothe respondent what the
violations are that are allegedor what documents are needed to
come into compliance.
Speaker 2 (22:39):
Yes, and I, as an attorney, would also like to
tell listeners if you've hiredan attorney, please tell TDLR,
don't keep talking to them.
Well, as today's episode comesto a close, I really want to
highlight the importance of notonly being proactive when you're
applying for your license, but,you know, also when you're
experiencing some issues too.
Thanks again, Ron and Heather,for being with us today.
(23:01):
We really appreciate you guystaking some time.
Speaker 3 (23:05):
Thank you.
Speaker 2 (23:06):
Yes, thank you guys so much.
I think we've just reallyexplained to people that you are
.
You know PDLR is encouragingthem to reach out to look at the
website, to look at the you, tolook at the actual applications
, follow their own instructions,and I think this process could
be really really easy for somefolks.
So, thank you guys so much.
Thank you
Narrator (23:28):
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