January 14, 2025 • 30 mins
What happens when criminal charges threaten not just your freedom but your professional license too? In this insightful episode, we’re joined by legal experts Troy Beaulieu, and Tony Bertolino from Bertolino Law Firm (https://www.belolaw.com/) and Justin Keiter from The Keiter Law Firm (https://keiterlawfirm.com/) as they explore the high-stakes world where criminal law collides with professional licensing. Whether the charges are tied to your work or entirely separate, they can have far-reaching consequences for your career.
Our panel breaks down why a collaborative approach between criminal defense and professional license defense attorneys is essential. Through real-world examples, they share strategies for navigating this complex legal landscape, from early intervention to effective communication. Discover how proactive legal planning can safeguard your license, protect your livelihood, and prevent costly missteps.
We dive into creative legal tactics, including leveraging administrative hearings to influence criminal cases and using agency-specific regulatory frameworks to your advantage. Learn how to minimize the risk of license suspensions, ensure your ability to maintain your practice, and secure the resources you need for a strong defense.
This episode offers essential guidance for licensed professionals facing dual legal challenges. Tune in to gain the knowledge and strategies you need to stay protected and prepared.
Get more information, details and resources on Know Your Regulator - https://www.belolaw.com/know-your-regulator
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:01):
This podcast is for educational purposes only, does
not constitute legal advice anddoes not create an
attorney-client relationship.
If you need legal assistanceabout a legal problem, contact
an attorney.
Speaker 2 (00:14):
Thanks for joining us today on Know your Regulator,
the podcast that inspires you toengage.
I'm your host, simone Murphy,and today we'll be discussing a
very important topic thecrossover between criminal and
professional license defense.
Your host, simone Murphree, andtoday we'll be discussing a
very important topic thecrossover between criminal and
professional license defense.
As a licensed professional,what you do outside of your
day-to-day career could have animpact on your license and
(00:35):
livelihood.
In criminal defense attorneys,your defense strategy could aid
or hinder your client when itcomes to their professional
license.
Joining me for this crucialdiscussion is Troy Bullier, a
seasoned professional licensedefense attorney at Bertolino
Law Firm.
With years of experiencerepresenting licensed
professionals before regulatoryagencies, troy has seen
(00:58):
firsthand how professional andcriminal matters can intersect.
Also with us today is TonyBertolino, managing partner of
the Bertolino Law Firm.
Tony brings a wealth ofexperience in complex licensed
defense cases and, in additionto leading the firm, he has a
unique perspective on howleadership and practice
(01:19):
intersect in these situations.
And finally, we're excited towelcome Justin Keiter, a
distinguished criminal defenseattorney from the Keiter Law
Firm in Houston, texas.
With extensive experience incriminal law, justin has
valuable insights on howcriminal charges can impact
professional licenses and how tonavigate those challenges
(01:40):
effectively.
So we will begin with how thesetwo worlds can collide.
How do criminal charges andprofessional licenses intersect,
troy, we'll start with you.
Speaker 1 (01:54):
Well, I would say I think there's two main ways.
In my experience of being alicensed defense attorney these
past few years, but also priorto that, a regulator, you really
see two contexts.
One is somebody gets a criminalcharge that's kind of unrelated
to their professionalexperience you know they have a
(02:16):
substance abuse problem orthey're caught driving while
intoxicated or there's someother issue maybe family
violence and that charge thenhas kind of an impact on their
licensing world, because all thestate regulators and all the
licensing structures areconcerned about their
(02:36):
overarching job is protect thepublic, have to look at that and
see if that potential criminalconviction or that criminal
matter has an impact on thepublic trust.
The other scenario that you seea lot more frequently occurring
more and more and we've seen itrecently even in the educator
world with the education examcheating scandal that's been in
(02:59):
the news is situations where alicense holder is doing
something in their capacity as alicense holder and that may
cross over not only violatingregulatory requirements but also
potential criminal accusationsof criminal conduct.
So those are really the twomain areas you see that
happening.
Speaker 3 (03:18):
And you know as to how these licensing boards they
sort of learn about thesecriminal cases in the first
place.
You know that tends to happenin sort of I guess I would say
three scenarios.
The first would be insituations where you have an
(03:40):
applicant who is self-disclosingthe criminal background and
letting the board know on theirapplication early on.
And of course there's thebackground checks that are
conducted anyway by theseregulatory agencies for
applicants.
Another way that theseregulatory agencies become aware
of these criminal cases is alsothrough self-disclosures on
renewals of their applicationsas well as situations in which
(04:05):
they have been found to beconvicted of a particular crime.
And generally speaking, there'sa requirement that within a
30-day period that you reportthe matter to the regulatory
agency, letting them know aboutthe final conviction.
And then the third way is justgenerally someone reporting you
(04:25):
you know you happen to have acriminal case that you haven't
self-disclosed or for whateverreason you've sort of tried to
hide it from the agencies and athird party, someone you know,
or maybe an employer or someonewho's aware of your criminal
background they make thedecision to report you to the
boards itself.
So those are different.
Speaker 2 (04:44):
You know examples in which you know, these licensing
boards become aware of criminalcases.
Gotcha and Justin.
On the criminal defense side ofthings, how are professional
licenses considered and how canthey be overlooked in criminal
cases?
Speaker 4 (05:02):
Great question.
The answer really is if youstart with the overlooking part.
Unfortunately, it's hard to findgood attorneys like Troy and
Tony who know what they're doing.
When I can call one of them,it's almost one of my first
calls is when I find out thatsomeone has a professional
license.
I know that the ramifications ofwhat my choices are and the
(05:26):
strategy that I need to employis critically important that I
talk to an administrative lawyer, because a lot of criminal
lawyers don't realize that evena deferred or a pretrial
diversion can be considered aconviction on the administrative
side, and so a lot of lawyersunfortunately don't think about
(05:47):
these things.
They just want to get theirclient what they consider the
best deal possible, when thebest deal possible could be the
worst deal possible, and sothat's critically important.
And then sometimes I think onthe other side, a lot of the
administrative lawyers some ofthe ones who aren't as seasoned
or experienced don't think aboutthe ramifications of what
(06:09):
choices they're making.
They're saying, oh great, wesaved the license, not a problem
, and five months later they'rebeing charged with a felony
offense because they'vebasically confessed to all the
elements at the hearing and theyhave no clue what they've done
and they've put themselves in anincredibly precarious situation
for their future and theirlivelihood.
Speaker 2 (06:30):
Yeah, it sounds like sometimes kind of having a
narrow mindset when it comes to,you know, looking at the end
result for your client.
You'll kind of want to expandthat and maybe keep your head on
a swivel and collaborate alittle bit.
Speaker 4 (06:45):
Collaboration is critical.
I know I've worked with Troyand the best way to handle it is
to get in it early and havethat communication.
That I think is lacking on bothsides for many.
Speaker 1 (06:58):
Yeah, and Simone, to amplify what Dustin's saying,
it's really important likewise,to have a really seasoned and
knowledgeable criminal defenseattorney, because sometimes,
like Justin was saying, you getin there early and maybe you
have some options.
Sometimes, depending on theagency, it treats different
crimes and different types ofconvictions differently.
(07:21):
So maybe if you can get a pleaagreement to a different type of
offense that the agency doesn'tconsider to be directly related
to your license holder'sprofessional practice, then you
might be able to skirt or tolessen the impact on the license
, and so there's a way they canstill positively resolve the
(07:42):
criminal case but not just puttheir professional license in
jeopardy.
Likewise, it's really importantto call someone like Justin
early on if you have aregulatory case that looks like
it could be fraud orembezzlement or some kind of
serious criminal offense and youdon't want your client writing
a complaint response or talkingto an investigator where, like
(08:04):
he said, they're makingadmissions to things that could
be a felony criminal offense.
Speaker 2 (08:10):
Yeah, looking at being proactive instead of
reactive, Something I think wesay a lot here.
Tony wanted to hear from you Doyou have an example that you
might be able to share with usof a licensed professional who
faced disciplinary action due tocriminal charges?
Speaker 3 (08:28):
You know there's just a lot of common ways and we
handle so many different casesin which you know, we have, you
know, a licensee, license holderwho happens to face a criminal
matter, and many of them thatcome to uh.
And of course we're verycareful with the kind of cases
that we take because of thesensitivity of them, but they're
(08:49):
the, the, the text, educationagency cases, um, in which the
certificate holder, the teacher,is uh accused of some kind of
um misconduct with uh, with astudent.
A common one is, you know,inappropriate communications
that they may have with astudent and sometimes what will
happen is that will overlap withthe criminal matter in which,
(09:12):
you know, arguably it's acriminal offense as well when
you've got a teacher who'saccused of inappropriate
communication or eveninappropriate relationship with
a student.
So those are, you know,somewhat on the common ones that
we face with on the teachingside.
You know, even on the medicalside, nursing, you know, a lot
of these case matters that wehandle.
(09:33):
You know, when it comes to theoverlap with criminal charges is
, you know, of course we have agood amount of cases in which
there's a standard of care issuegoing on, but, believe it or
not, most of our cases are ourlicense holders who are just
misbehaving and, you know, inthe form of theft of drugs.
(09:56):
Perhaps you know a nurse who'saccused of misappropriating
drugs at work, medical doctorswho are accused of and arrested
for DWIs, you know, these arejust sort of behavioral issues
that they have.
So those are the common onesthat I'm seeing in my experience
.
You know, when handling, youknow defending licensed
(10:20):
professionals and they'redealing with an overlap with
criminal charges.
Speaker 2 (10:25):
And what steps can be taken during this time to
protect their license whilethey're still dealing with, you
know, a potential criminalconviction?
Speaker 3 (10:36):
Well, you know, that's a really good question,
and I like to answer thatquestion in a way, in this way
you know, at the end of the day,whenever you've got a license
holder who's accused of a crime,the most important thing is
really to get that licenseholder in front of a criminal
defense lawyer like Justin.
And I think that's importantbecause we're talking about
(10:59):
someone who's potentially facingthe loss of their liberty
versus the loss of their license.
So, you know so, the immediatestep that I would take would be
to immediately, you know, seekout a criminal defense attorney
to help with that.
You know it's much moreimportant for you to stay out of
prison or jail than it is toprotect that license.
(11:21):
So you know so.
And, of course, you know,working hand in hand between a
criminal defense attorney and anadministrative law attorney and
navigating throughout thatprocess is also critical.
But I think the immediate stepis is to hire a criminal defense
attorney right away, andcertainly don't try to handle it
on your own.
That's a big, big, big, bigmistake to do such a thing.
Speaker 4 (11:45):
Right, I know what I don't know.
Troy and Tony, and that's why Icall y'all is I know what I
don't know.
But I think, if I can piggybackreal quick on on what you said,
tony, sometimes our clients andmaybe I'm wrong are so focused
on their license and theirlivelihood that they just don't
(12:06):
even think about the criminalside, when actually I've had
some situations and and troy andI had one where I could I was
able to successfully negotiateno criminal charge by making
sure that they gave up theirlicense and a case quietly went
away.
And you know, like we alwayssay, I say on the criminal side
(12:26):
to a lot of my clients, alwayssay I say on the criminal side
to a lot of my clients I canlive with your decision.
The question is, can you?
And you know those licenses arevery valuable and sometimes
they don't think about theirlivelihood, they're focused on
their livelihood, not theirfreedom.
And I think making sure I haveall the proper paperwork from an
agency and making sure that'sdrafted and there's an agreement
(12:50):
goes a long way innegotiability on the criminal
defense side.
Speaker 2 (12:57):
Yeah, that makes sense.
Speaker 1 (12:59):
Yeah, and I'd say you know to kind of echo what
they're saying, simone it'sreally a holistic approach.
You've got to look at bothsides of that coin and figure
out how to thread the needle,and in everybody's case it's
going to be a little bitdifferent, but there are
definitely, like Tony and Justinsaid, some typical things that
(13:22):
you will see along the way thatyou're going to have to navigate
.
But I think the biggest thingis getting a holistic approach
from both a criminal defense anda licensed defense attorney so
you can plan a comprehensivestrategy, like Justin said, that
you can live with at the end ofthe day.
So one of the things we reallytry and do and I know Justin
does too is have very meaningfulconversations with clients
(13:45):
about where they find themselves, what the circumstances are and
what the options are aboutwhere they find themselves, what
the circumstances are and whatthe options are.
Speaker 2 (13:56):
That's actually a great segue into my next
question Are there challengesthat attorneys or clients may
face in dealing with theselicense investigations while
they're trying to maintainprofessional standing during and
even after criminal cases?
Speaker 1 (14:13):
during and even after criminal cases.
Absolutely, it's a lot ofdifferent things that come into
play.
You know, early on, some thingsto you know that you have to be
concerned with is is thisserious enough criminal offenses
?
Does it have enough connectionto your license that the agency
might try and temporarily oremergency suspend your license,
which is a real challenge,because if they're successful in
(14:34):
that, that really impacts yourability to pay for the legal
services that you need.
And when I was a regulator youknow it's not something that you
want to do lightly, butobviously, if you really believe
someone is a danger or threatto the public, being able to do
that can be a very effectivetool in limiting a licensed
(14:55):
consulter's ability to respondand fight back.
So that's one thing to look outfor early on.
I think the other thing is youreally need to make sure
especially if the person hasalready had conversations with
somebody from the governmentmake sure that we don't have any
statements or admissions thatcould be harmful.
I remember many times when Iwas a regulator.
(15:18):
It is amazing what people willput in writing and send to the
government.
I've had people fill outcomplete affidavits confessing
to felony offenses and turn themin, and so you really need to.
You know, be careful about thataspect that you're not saying
things.
You know, until you've talkedwith a lawyer who handles
(15:41):
criminal and licensed defensestuff, you really don't want to
say much about your case.
It's very challenging Sometimes.
If you can find creative legalarguments that really don't rely
a lot on the client saying alot and coming to their own
defense, those can be some ofthe best defenses.
(16:03):
You know, if you have a statuteof limitations argument or if
you have some kind of fairlylegal argument, you know, as
they would say in commonparlance, you know it's a
technicality.
Well, if it's a legalrequirement, then it's a legal
requirement, and so sometimesthat can be the best thing.
The client doesn't necessarilyneed to say anything and can be
quiet, but you can still make anargument and maybe get past
(16:24):
that.
So there's definitelychallenges because, like you
said earlier, you've got to keepyour head on a swivel because
you're essentially dealing withyou.
Throw one of these stones intothe water and it's a ripple
effect in two different arenas.
Speaker 2 (16:37):
Yeah, well said, Very well said.
Justin.
Can you talk to us aboutbalancing the legal strategies
in criminal court and thepotential long-term consequences
for a client's professionallife?
Speaker 4 (16:53):
Sure, and just to piggyback off of what Troy said,
the segue is perfect, becausesometimes if you know that
you're dead to rights.
There was another lawyer I wasworking with on the admin side
that was just like let's justgive up.
And I said, well, if it's thatopen and shut, I don't know what
(17:13):
, I don't know.
And I said, no, have thehearing.
If they're going to call theofficer and the complainant in
the case, it's free discovery onthe criminal side.
If you really think the licenseis lost, I'm going to go
fishing and let's see what Icatch.
And sure enough, by the time wewere done at that SOA hearing
(17:35):
it was one of the only ones I'dever attended, because it's not
my cup of tea, but I mean I hadfree access to the investigating
detective.
And by the time I was done withthe detective and the
complainant on this theft case,there was no criminal case.
They had nothing left, um, andI don't know how the actual
admin side resolved itself.
(17:56):
But by that point I orderedthat, we ordered the transcript
and I looked at the prosecutor,uh, who was looking at the case
in a white collar and a largewhite collar embezzlement case,
and said here's the transcript.
Are you going to touch this?
They called me back two dayslater and, like I'm rejecting
the charge, we're good.
So best of luck to you and yourclient.
(18:19):
But you don't know that unlessyou're willing to find someone
aggressive to go to go tohearing, and I know Troy did too
.
Troy took it, didn't take nofor an answer until he got a yes
on on what our mutual clientwanted.
But that long-term effect Idon't think they understand.
Clients don't understand unlessthey are, unless they're
explained thoroughly theoverarching consequences of what
(18:43):
their decisions have.
You know, I don't know ifthat's going to affect.
You might want to take thisdeal, but I don't know if it's
going to affect long-termwhether or not you make it to a
master plumber versus just beinga journeyman, if I'm using the
right terminology.
And you need to take that intoaccount every time with every
(19:04):
client into account every timewith every client.
Speaker 2 (19:11):
Yeah, absolutely.
It really sounds like thereneeds to be a collaborative
approach for both the criminaland professional defense.
I mean, it sounds like that'sthe most comprehensive and best
approach to your client.
I know we've talked about itseveral times already this
episode, but I do want to reallydrive it home on why this is so
(19:31):
critical.
The collaboration is socritical.
Tony, we'll start with youfirst.
Can you give us a little bit ofinsights on some proactive
strategies that may be able tobe used to mitigate these
licensing consequences early on?
Speaker 3 (19:45):
Sure, sure.
I think it's key that licenseewho is also facing a criminal
matter hire an experiencedattorney who can handle both, or
an attorney that can handle thecriminal side as well as an
attorney that can handle thelicensing defense side, and hire
(20:06):
them at the same time.
I think that's very, veryimportant so that both the
criminal defense attorney andthe licensed defense attorney
can work together incollaboration to figure out
solutions for that licenseholder.
A lot of times you know you'vegot criminal defense attorneys
that are just not aware at allof the administrative law
procedure, not aware of the.
(20:27):
You know the substantive lawsand vice versa with you know
licensed defense attorneys, ormany of them, are not aware of
the criminal implications.
So it's important that you knowyou hire both at the same time
and they're able to worktogether.
And particularly in usinglanguage, for example, plea
bargain deals, you know being ina position for a licensed
(20:51):
defense attorney to work withand assist a criminal defense
lawyer in the drafting of thelanguage in a plea bargain deal,
because of course that's goingto have implications down the
road on the licensing side.
So it's best to work you knowearly on in the process if that
is in fact what's happening.
(21:11):
You know you don't end up goingto trial and you end up getting
it settled out in a pleabargain deal.
I think it'd be critical in aneffort to mitigate those
consequences early by makingsure you hire attorneys that
work well together andstrategizing together.
Speaker 2 (21:31):
Yeah, absolutely.
Mr Bollier, can you talk to usa little bit about the
importance of understanding theregulatory frameworks and the
regulatory rules?
Speaker 1 (21:44):
Yeah, absolutely.
That's an important thing toconsider.
I think Justin said it verywell earlier.
There's just an alphabet soupout there of state agencies and
every one of them is a littlebit different, has their own
rules, has their own statute,has their own provisions and
what may be.
You know, a problem or an issuefor one type of license may be
(22:07):
workable in another.
So the first thing is it's youknow, it's really important to
know what are thoseagency-specific laws and rules,
because it's not just likeclients think, oh well, I've had
a conviction right.
Certainly a conviction can be aproblem.
But things like deferredadjudication, where your
(22:28):
criminal lawyer is saying, hey,you know, if you get through
this at the end a deferredadjudication type agreement, you
won't have anything on yourcriminal record, that's probably
not going to be true for yourregulatory license.
Most state agencies still havethe authority within boundaries
to treat that as a conviction.
Same thing many times forpretrial diversion, which is
(22:52):
even kind of a little bit betterdeal, where before you even you
know the case even really getsvery far off the ground there's
some type of agreement to dosomething on the criminal case
to resolve it.
Type of agreement to dosomething on the criminal case
to resolve it and then thecharges get dropped.
But again, that can still haveconsequences.
And then there's even agenciesthat say you know what?
(23:14):
We have the regulatoryauthority to come after you,
even if you were never chargedwith the crime, you were just
arrested and we think we canindependently prove that you did
this bad act.
We can independently prove thatyou did this bad act and we
might come after you for that.
So it's really important to knowwhat are those rules, how does
that agency look at those typesof things and what have they
(23:35):
done in the past?
What have been similar outcomes?
Because you need to thinkcarefully and not just you know,
kind of blindly move forwardand say, well, I want a hearing,
and not just you know, kind ofblindly moves forward and say,
well, I want a hearing.
Because, again, like Justin andTony have alluded to, you can
really kind of open your mouthand insert your foot if you're
(23:57):
making statements under oath andit can really be problematic.
That's why making sure you havelawyers who are collaborating
on your side is so important.
But yeah, I think knowing thoserules and understanding how
they fit your particular licenseis really going to help you
figure out what are your optionsand how, then you can
incorporate that with thecriminal defense attorney to a
(24:18):
good, solid, holistic strategy.
Speaker 2 (24:21):
Yeah, absolutely Finding an expert.
Having those experts worktogether in tandem Sounds like
that is really key to to having,you know, the best overall
representation.
Justin, can you talk to us justabout how incorporating license
defense advice just strengthensoverall representation of these
(24:42):
clients?
Speaker 4 (24:43):
Sure, when you're, when you're talking and they
have that license, that isn'tthe.
I think and Troy and Tony willprobably agree it is.
It is the foremost thing ontheir mind.
Like you know, when I'm talking, like, hey, you're facing two
to 10 years in prison, sometimesthe response is just well, what
about my license?
(25:04):
I just like it's two to 10years in prison, what, but what
about my license?
And so sometimes you can use itas a bargaining chip and
sometimes, strategically, youkeep it.
I keep it very quiet.
I don't want the prosecutor toknow.
(25:25):
I keep it very quiet.
I don't want the prosecutor toknow and I don't want them to
have an idea of what's at stake,because then they, then they
dig in and I don't the less youknow instead of the more you
know for the for from the thereare some aggressive agencies.
(25:46):
I was shocked when I you know,when they upload everything in
the portal at the da's office.
And then I have to share allthis discovery with you.
I I'm sitting there looking atan email from an investigator
from an agency and I was like myclient didn't even tell me that
they had this license and I waslike I didn't understand and
he's like well, yeah, I had thatfrom long ago, but I'm in a
(26:08):
different field now.
I said, well, that doesn't, Idon't think that matters, like
they're.
They certainly know, and that'simportant.
And I immediately I calledbecause I don't understand.
Well, so so what?
So you're saying you don't careabout the license.
Can I use that as a bargainingchip, you know, to get your case
dismissed or reduced or get thecharge changed.
(26:31):
But it is so powerful.
But sometimes you don't wantthe prosecution to know, because
then they dig their heels inwhere the prosecutor is like no,
he doesn't ever need to, thatperson doesn't ever need to be
in that line of work again.
So I know what they want, butI'm not giving it to them.
Well, and so that was that wasvery painful.
(26:53):
I mean, that's the game ofsurvivor outwit, outlast and
outplay.
And so I had to wait.
That prosecutor was just sogung ho.
I dragged out the case until Ifound that, until that
prosecutor got moved to adifferent court.
I mean that you know.
That's why it's criticallyimportant.
I think your licensing can beyour.
Your license can be your bestdefense and your best offense.
Speaker 2 (27:19):
Yeah.
What it sounds like, though, isthat a an expert again really
trying to drive it home, becauseyou know, these are the experts
.
These are the ones who, day inand day out, they practice this
type of law.
Speaker 3 (27:31):
When you get these two types of experts together,
they can really comprehensivelylook at your situation, find a
strategy that puts you in thebest light One of the things
I've and I've spoken to Troyabout this in the past and I'm
glad that you know Justin ismindful of this is you know the
issue of the possibility thatcriminal defense lawyers may be
(27:54):
committing malpractice in manyscenarios when they fail to
obtain information about theirclient's license license and
whether that could ultimately beused as a bargaining chip down
the road, as Justin mentionedearlier, or not.
It's still important that thesecriminal defense attorneys are
(28:15):
made aware and ask the rightquestions in their initial
interviews with their clients ofwhether or not they possess any
kind of professional license ofsorts.
There's that possibility thatmalpractice could be committed
if you don't.
You know if you end up, youknow, entering into a deal of
some sort, or you know deferredadjudication or whatever kind of
(28:35):
potential dismissal from acriminal defense attorney's
perspective, as they see as apotential dismissal of a case.
But in fact it is a finalconviction by you know the way
it's interpreted by theregulatory agency and lo and
behold, you may have justcommitted malpractice at that
point or at the very least youcould have an upset client who
(28:58):
is going to try to test thatmalpractice by reporting that
lawyer to the bar.
So it's really important thatyou know.
It's good to see you knowlawyers like Justin is mindful
of the existence of theseprofessional licenses, that you
know that their criminal defenseclients possess.
Speaker 2 (29:17):
Yeah, absolutely Very insightful, tony, Such a good
point to make.
Speaker 4 (29:22):
Tony, you are spot on man.
I will tell you, my friend, Icringe if I see someone in a
coat and tie, a defendant who'swell-dressed, and I see some
defense attorney pleading themout and I wonder just exactly
what you said.
I wonder.
I hope they don't have alicense.
Speaker 3 (29:42):
Right, right, absolutely.
Speaker 4 (29:45):
Because that lawyer may not have one at the end.
Speaker 3 (29:47):
Yeah, exactly right.
Speaker 2 (29:50):
Well, thank you all again.
So much for your time thisafternoon.
It's been a really eye-openingepisode for our viewers.
I think there's a lot of greattakeaways and insights To our
viewers.
If you are unsure about a legalchallenge that you may be
facing, consult with an attorneyand attorneys.
You can always reach out to atrusted colleague or an expert
(30:14):
for assistance on someoverlapping cases.
As always, you can learn moreabout this topic and enhance
your professional career bysubscribing to Know your
Regulator and until next time,take care.
Thank you guys.
Speaker 4 (30:30):
Thank you.
Speaker 1 (30:32):
Know your Regulator.
The podcast that inspires youto engage.
This podcast is for educational purposes only, does
not constitute legal advice anddoes not create an
attorney-client relationship.
If you need legal assistanceabout a legal problem, contact
an attorney.
Speaker 2 (00:14):
Thanks for joining us today on Know your Regulator,
the podcast that inspires you toengage.
I'm your host, simone Murphy,and today we'll be discussing a
very important topic thecrossover between criminal and
professional license defense.
Your host, simone Murphree, andtoday we'll be discussing a
very important topic thecrossover between criminal and
professional license defense.
As a licensed professional,what you do outside of your
day-to-day career could have animpact on your license and
(00:35):
livelihood.
In criminal defense attorneys,your defense strategy could aid
or hinder your client when itcomes to their professional
license.
Joining me for this crucialdiscussion is Troy Bullier, a
seasoned professional licensedefense attorney at Bertolino
Law Firm.
With years of experiencerepresenting licensed
professionals before regulatoryagencies, troy has seen
(00:58):
firsthand how professional andcriminal matters can intersect.
Also with us today is TonyBertolino, managing partner of
the Bertolino Law Firm.
Tony brings a wealth ofexperience in complex licensed
defense cases and, in additionto leading the firm, he has a
unique perspective on howleadership and practice
(01:19):
intersect in these situations.
And finally, we're excited towelcome Justin Keiter, a
distinguished criminal defenseattorney from the Keiter Law
Firm in Houston, texas.
With extensive experience incriminal law, justin has
valuable insights on howcriminal charges can impact
professional licenses and how tonavigate those challenges
(01:40):
effectively.
So we will begin with how thesetwo worlds can collide.
How do criminal charges andprofessional licenses intersect,
troy, we'll start with you.
Speaker 1 (01:54):
Well, I would say I think there's two main ways.
In my experience of being alicensed defense attorney these
past few years, but also priorto that, a regulator, you really
see two contexts.
One is somebody gets a criminalcharge that's kind of unrelated
to their professionalexperience you know they have a
(02:16):
substance abuse problem orthey're caught driving while
intoxicated or there's someother issue maybe family
violence and that charge thenhas kind of an impact on their
licensing world, because all thestate regulators and all the
licensing structures areconcerned about their
(02:36):
overarching job is protect thepublic, have to look at that and
see if that potential criminalconviction or that criminal
matter has an impact on thepublic trust.
The other scenario that you seea lot more frequently occurring
more and more and we've seen itrecently even in the educator
world with the education examcheating scandal that's been in
(02:59):
the news is situations where alicense holder is doing
something in their capacity as alicense holder and that may
cross over not only violatingregulatory requirements but also
potential criminal accusationsof criminal conduct.
So those are really the twomain areas you see that
happening.
Speaker 3 (03:18):
And you know as to how these licensing boards they
sort of learn about thesecriminal cases in the first
place.
You know that tends to happenin sort of I guess I would say
three scenarios.
The first would be insituations where you have an
(03:40):
applicant who is self-disclosingthe criminal background and
letting the board know on theirapplication early on.
And of course there's thebackground checks that are
conducted anyway by theseregulatory agencies for
applicants.
Another way that theseregulatory agencies become aware
of these criminal cases is alsothrough self-disclosures on
renewals of their applicationsas well as situations in which
(04:05):
they have been found to beconvicted of a particular crime.
And generally speaking, there'sa requirement that within a
30-day period that you reportthe matter to the regulatory
agency, letting them know aboutthe final conviction.
And then the third way is justgenerally someone reporting you
(04:25):
you know you happen to have acriminal case that you haven't
self-disclosed or for whateverreason you've sort of tried to
hide it from the agencies and athird party, someone you know,
or maybe an employer or someonewho's aware of your criminal
background they make thedecision to report you to the
boards itself.
So those are different.
Speaker 2 (04:44):
You know examples in which you know, these licensing
boards become aware of criminalcases.
Gotcha and Justin.
On the criminal defense side ofthings, how are professional
licenses considered and how canthey be overlooked in criminal
cases?
Speaker 4 (05:02):
Great question.
The answer really is if youstart with the overlooking part.
Unfortunately, it's hard to findgood attorneys like Troy and
Tony who know what they're doing.
When I can call one of them,it's almost one of my first
calls is when I find out thatsomeone has a professional
license.
I know that the ramifications ofwhat my choices are and the
(05:26):
strategy that I need to employis critically important that I
talk to an administrative lawyer, because a lot of criminal
lawyers don't realize that evena deferred or a pretrial
diversion can be considered aconviction on the administrative
side, and so a lot of lawyersunfortunately don't think about
(05:47):
these things.
They just want to get theirclient what they consider the
best deal possible, when thebest deal possible could be the
worst deal possible, and sothat's critically important.
And then sometimes I think onthe other side, a lot of the
administrative lawyers some ofthe ones who aren't as seasoned
or experienced don't think aboutthe ramifications of what
(06:09):
choices they're making.
They're saying, oh great, wesaved the license, not a problem
, and five months later they'rebeing charged with a felony
offense because they'vebasically confessed to all the
elements at the hearing and theyhave no clue what they've done
and they've put themselves in anincredibly precarious situation
for their future and theirlivelihood.
Speaker 2 (06:30):
Yeah, it sounds like sometimes kind of having a
narrow mindset when it comes to,you know, looking at the end
result for your client.
You'll kind of want to expandthat and maybe keep your head on
a swivel and collaborate alittle bit.
Speaker 4 (06:45):
Collaboration is critical.
I know I've worked with Troyand the best way to handle it is
to get in it early and havethat communication.
That I think is lacking on bothsides for many.
Speaker 1 (06:58):
Yeah, and Simone, to amplify what Dustin's saying,
it's really important likewise,to have a really seasoned and
knowledgeable criminal defenseattorney, because sometimes,
like Justin was saying, you getin there early and maybe you
have some options.
Sometimes, depending on theagency, it treats different
crimes and different types ofconvictions differently.
(07:21):
So maybe if you can get a pleaagreement to a different type of
offense that the agency doesn'tconsider to be directly related
to your license holder'sprofessional practice, then you
might be able to skirt or tolessen the impact on the license
, and so there's a way they canstill positively resolve the
(07:42):
criminal case but not just puttheir professional license in
jeopardy.
Likewise, it's really importantto call someone like Justin
early on if you have aregulatory case that looks like
it could be fraud orembezzlement or some kind of
serious criminal offense and youdon't want your client writing
a complaint response or talkingto an investigator where, like
(08:04):
he said, they're makingadmissions to things that could
be a felony criminal offense.
Speaker 2 (08:10):
Yeah, looking at being proactive instead of
reactive, Something I think wesay a lot here.
Tony wanted to hear from you Doyou have an example that you
might be able to share with usof a licensed professional who
faced disciplinary action due tocriminal charges?
Speaker 3 (08:28):
You know there's just a lot of common ways and we
handle so many different casesin which you know, we have, you
know, a licensee, license holderwho happens to face a criminal
matter, and many of them thatcome to uh.
And of course we're verycareful with the kind of cases
that we take because of thesensitivity of them, but they're
(08:49):
the, the, the text, educationagency cases, um, in which the
certificate holder, the teacher,is uh accused of some kind of
um misconduct with uh, with astudent.
A common one is, you know,inappropriate communications
that they may have with astudent and sometimes what will
happen is that will overlap withthe criminal matter in which,
(09:12):
you know, arguably it's acriminal offense as well when
you've got a teacher who'saccused of inappropriate
communication or eveninappropriate relationship with
a student.
So those are, you know,somewhat on the common ones that
we face with on the teachingside.
You know, even on the medicalside, nursing, you know, a lot
of these case matters that wehandle.
(09:33):
You know, when it comes to theoverlap with criminal charges is
, you know, of course we have agood amount of cases in which
there's a standard of care issuegoing on, but, believe it or
not, most of our cases are ourlicense holders who are just
misbehaving and, you know, inthe form of theft of drugs.
(09:56):
Perhaps you know a nurse who'saccused of misappropriating
drugs at work, medical doctorswho are accused of and arrested
for DWIs, you know, these arejust sort of behavioral issues
that they have.
So those are the common onesthat I'm seeing in my experience
.
You know, when handling, youknow defending licensed
(10:20):
professionals and they'redealing with an overlap with
criminal charges.
Speaker 2 (10:25):
And what steps can be taken during this time to
protect their license whilethey're still dealing with, you
know, a potential criminalconviction?
Speaker 3 (10:36):
Well, you know, that's a really good question,
and I like to answer thatquestion in a way, in this way
you know, at the end of the day,whenever you've got a license
holder who's accused of a crime,the most important thing is
really to get that licenseholder in front of a criminal
defense lawyer like Justin.
And I think that's importantbecause we're talking about
(10:59):
someone who's potentially facingthe loss of their liberty
versus the loss of their license.
So, you know so, the immediatestep that I would take would be
to immediately, you know, seekout a criminal defense attorney
to help with that.
You know it's much moreimportant for you to stay out of
prison or jail than it is toprotect that license.
(11:21):
So you know so.
And, of course, you know,working hand in hand between a
criminal defense attorney and anadministrative law attorney and
navigating throughout thatprocess is also critical.
But I think the immediate stepis is to hire a criminal defense
attorney right away, andcertainly don't try to handle it
on your own.
That's a big, big, big, bigmistake to do such a thing.
Speaker 4 (11:45):
Right, I know what I don't know.
Troy and Tony, and that's why Icall y'all is I know what I
don't know.
But I think, if I can piggybackreal quick on on what you said,
tony, sometimes our clients andmaybe I'm wrong are so focused
on their license and theirlivelihood that they just don't
(12:06):
even think about the criminalside, when actually I've had
some situations and and troy andI had one where I could I was
able to successfully negotiateno criminal charge by making
sure that they gave up theirlicense and a case quietly went
away.
And you know, like we alwayssay, I say on the criminal side
(12:26):
to a lot of my clients, alwayssay I say on the criminal side
to a lot of my clients I canlive with your decision.
The question is, can you?
And you know those licenses arevery valuable and sometimes
they don't think about theirlivelihood, they're focused on
their livelihood, not theirfreedom.
And I think making sure I haveall the proper paperwork from an
agency and making sure that'sdrafted and there's an agreement
(12:50):
goes a long way innegotiability on the criminal
defense side.
Speaker 2 (12:57):
Yeah, that makes sense.
Speaker 1 (12:59):
Yeah, and I'd say you know to kind of echo what
they're saying, simone it'sreally a holistic approach.
You've got to look at bothsides of that coin and figure
out how to thread the needle,and in everybody's case it's
going to be a little bitdifferent, but there are
definitely, like Tony and Justinsaid, some typical things that
(13:22):
you will see along the way thatyou're going to have to navigate
.
But I think the biggest thingis getting a holistic approach
from both a criminal defense anda licensed defense attorney so
you can plan a comprehensivestrategy, like Justin said, that
you can live with at the end ofthe day.
So one of the things we reallytry and do and I know Justin
does too is have very meaningfulconversations with clients
(13:45):
about where they find themselves, what the circumstances are and
what the options are aboutwhere they find themselves, what
the circumstances are and whatthe options are.
Speaker 2 (13:56):
That's actually a great segue into my next
question Are there challengesthat attorneys or clients may
face in dealing with theselicense investigations while
they're trying to maintainprofessional standing during and
even after criminal cases?
Speaker 1 (14:13):
during and even after criminal cases.
Absolutely, it's a lot ofdifferent things that come into
play.
You know, early on, some thingsto you know that you have to be
concerned with is is thisserious enough criminal offenses
?
Does it have enough connectionto your license that the agency
might try and temporarily oremergency suspend your license,
which is a real challenge,because if they're successful in
(14:34):
that, that really impacts yourability to pay for the legal
services that you need.
And when I was a regulator youknow it's not something that you
want to do lightly, butobviously, if you really believe
someone is a danger or threatto the public, being able to do
that can be a very effectivetool in limiting a licensed
(14:55):
consulter's ability to respondand fight back.
So that's one thing to look outfor early on.
I think the other thing is youreally need to make sure
especially if the person hasalready had conversations with
somebody from the governmentmake sure that we don't have any
statements or admissions thatcould be harmful.
I remember many times when Iwas a regulator.
(15:18):
It is amazing what people willput in writing and send to the
government.
I've had people fill outcomplete affidavits confessing
to felony offenses and turn themin, and so you really need to.
You know, be careful about thataspect that you're not saying
things.
You know, until you've talkedwith a lawyer who handles
(15:41):
criminal and licensed defensestuff, you really don't want to
say much about your case.
It's very challenging Sometimes.
If you can find creative legalarguments that really don't rely
a lot on the client saying alot and coming to their own
defense, those can be some ofthe best defenses.
(16:03):
You know, if you have a statuteof limitations argument or if
you have some kind of fairlylegal argument, you know, as
they would say in commonparlance, you know it's a
technicality.
Well, if it's a legalrequirement, then it's a legal
requirement, and so sometimesthat can be the best thing.
The client doesn't necessarilyneed to say anything and can be
quiet, but you can still make anargument and maybe get past
(16:24):
that.
So there's definitelychallenges because, like you
said earlier, you've got to keepyour head on a swivel because
you're essentially dealing withyou.
Throw one of these stones intothe water and it's a ripple
effect in two different arenas.
Speaker 2 (16:37):
Yeah, well said, Very well said.
Justin.
Can you talk to us aboutbalancing the legal strategies
in criminal court and thepotential long-term consequences
for a client's professionallife?
Speaker 4 (16:53):
Sure, and just to piggyback off of what Troy said,
the segue is perfect, becausesometimes if you know that
you're dead to rights.
There was another lawyer I wasworking with on the admin side
that was just like let's justgive up.
And I said, well, if it's thatopen and shut, I don't know what
(17:13):
, I don't know.
And I said, no, have thehearing.
If they're going to call theofficer and the complainant in
the case, it's free discovery onthe criminal side.
If you really think the licenseis lost, I'm going to go
fishing and let's see what Icatch.
And sure enough, by the time wewere done at that SOA hearing
(17:35):
it was one of the only ones I'dever attended, because it's not
my cup of tea, but I mean I hadfree access to the investigating
detective.
And by the time I was done withthe detective and the
complainant on this theft case,there was no criminal case.
They had nothing left, um, andI don't know how the actual
admin side resolved itself.
(17:56):
But by that point I orderedthat, we ordered the transcript
and I looked at the prosecutor,uh, who was looking at the case
in a white collar and a largewhite collar embezzlement case,
and said here's the transcript.
Are you going to touch this?
They called me back two dayslater and, like I'm rejecting
the charge, we're good.
So best of luck to you and yourclient.
(18:19):
But you don't know that unlessyou're willing to find someone
aggressive to go to go tohearing, and I know Troy did too
.
Troy took it, didn't take nofor an answer until he got a yes
on on what our mutual clientwanted.
But that long-term effect Idon't think they understand.
Clients don't understand unlessthey are, unless they're
explained thoroughly theoverarching consequences of what
(18:43):
their decisions have.
You know, I don't know ifthat's going to affect.
You might want to take thisdeal, but I don't know if it's
going to affect long-termwhether or not you make it to a
master plumber versus just beinga journeyman, if I'm using the
right terminology.
And you need to take that intoaccount every time with every
(19:04):
client into account every timewith every client.
Speaker 2 (19:11):
Yeah, absolutely.
It really sounds like thereneeds to be a collaborative
approach for both the criminaland professional defense.
I mean, it sounds like that'sthe most comprehensive and best
approach to your client.
I know we've talked about itseveral times already this
episode, but I do want to reallydrive it home on why this is so
(19:31):
critical.
The collaboration is socritical.
Tony, we'll start with youfirst.
Can you give us a little bit ofinsights on some proactive
strategies that may be able tobe used to mitigate these
licensing consequences early on?
Speaker 3 (19:45):
Sure, sure.
I think it's key that licenseewho is also facing a criminal
matter hire an experiencedattorney who can handle both, or
an attorney that can handle thecriminal side as well as an
attorney that can handle thelicensing defense side, and hire
(20:06):
them at the same time.
I think that's very, veryimportant so that both the
criminal defense attorney andthe licensed defense attorney
can work together incollaboration to figure out
solutions for that licenseholder.
A lot of times you know you'vegot criminal defense attorneys
that are just not aware at allof the administrative law
procedure, not aware of the.
(20:27):
You know the substantive lawsand vice versa with you know
licensed defense attorneys, ormany of them, are not aware of
the criminal implications.
So it's important that you knowyou hire both at the same time
and they're able to worktogether.
And particularly in usinglanguage, for example, plea
bargain deals, you know being ina position for a licensed
(20:51):
defense attorney to work withand assist a criminal defense
lawyer in the drafting of thelanguage in a plea bargain deal,
because of course that's goingto have implications down the
road on the licensing side.
So it's best to work you knowearly on in the process if that
is in fact what's happening.
(21:11):
You know you don't end up goingto trial and you end up getting
it settled out in a pleabargain deal.
I think it'd be critical in aneffort to mitigate those
consequences early by makingsure you hire attorneys that
work well together andstrategizing together.
Speaker 2 (21:31):
Yeah, absolutely.
Mr Bollier, can you talk to usa little bit about the
importance of understanding theregulatory frameworks and the
regulatory rules?
Speaker 1 (21:44):
Yeah, absolutely.
That's an important thing toconsider.
I think Justin said it verywell earlier.
There's just an alphabet soupout there of state agencies and
every one of them is a littlebit different, has their own
rules, has their own statute,has their own provisions and
what may be.
You know, a problem or an issuefor one type of license may be
(22:07):
workable in another.
So the first thing is it's youknow, it's really important to
know what are thoseagency-specific laws and rules,
because it's not just likeclients think, oh well, I've had
a conviction right.
Certainly a conviction can be aproblem.
But things like deferredadjudication, where your
(22:28):
criminal lawyer is saying, hey,you know, if you get through
this at the end a deferredadjudication type agreement, you
won't have anything on yourcriminal record, that's probably
not going to be true for yourregulatory license.
Most state agencies still havethe authority within boundaries
to treat that as a conviction.
Same thing many times forpretrial diversion, which is
(22:52):
even kind of a little bit betterdeal, where before you even you
know the case even really getsvery far off the ground there's
some type of agreement to dosomething on the criminal case
to resolve it.
Type of agreement to dosomething on the criminal case
to resolve it and then thecharges get dropped.
But again, that can still haveconsequences.
And then there's even agenciesthat say you know what?
(23:14):
We have the regulatoryauthority to come after you,
even if you were never chargedwith the crime, you were just
arrested and we think we canindependently prove that you did
this bad act.
We can independently prove thatyou did this bad act and we
might come after you for that.
So it's really important to knowwhat are those rules, how does
that agency look at those typesof things and what have they
(23:35):
done in the past?
What have been similar outcomes?
Because you need to thinkcarefully and not just you know,
kind of blindly move forwardand say, well, I want a hearing,
and not just you know, kind ofblindly moves forward and say,
well, I want a hearing.
Because, again, like Justin andTony have alluded to, you can
really kind of open your mouthand insert your foot if you're
(23:57):
making statements under oath andit can really be problematic.
That's why making sure you havelawyers who are collaborating
on your side is so important.
But yeah, I think knowing thoserules and understanding how
they fit your particular licenseis really going to help you
figure out what are your optionsand how, then you can
incorporate that with thecriminal defense attorney to a
(24:18):
good, solid, holistic strategy.
Speaker 2 (24:21):
Yeah, absolutely Finding an expert.
Having those experts worktogether in tandem Sounds like
that is really key to to having,you know, the best overall
representation.
Justin, can you talk to us justabout how incorporating license
defense advice just strengthensoverall representation of these
(24:42):
clients?
Speaker 4 (24:43):
Sure, when you're, when you're talking and they
have that license, that isn'tthe.
I think and Troy and Tony willprobably agree it is.
It is the foremost thing ontheir mind.
Like you know, when I'm talking, like, hey, you're facing two
to 10 years in prison, sometimesthe response is just well, what
about my license?
(25:04):
I just like it's two to 10years in prison, what, but what
about my license?
And so sometimes you can use itas a bargaining chip and
sometimes, strategically, youkeep it.
I keep it very quiet.
I don't want the prosecutor toknow.
(25:25):
I keep it very quiet.
I don't want the prosecutor toknow and I don't want them to
have an idea of what's at stake,because then they, then they
dig in and I don't the less youknow instead of the more you
know for the for from the thereare some aggressive agencies.
(25:46):
I was shocked when I you know,when they upload everything in
the portal at the da's office.
And then I have to share allthis discovery with you.
I I'm sitting there looking atan email from an investigator
from an agency and I was like myclient didn't even tell me that
they had this license and I waslike I didn't understand and
he's like well, yeah, I had thatfrom long ago, but I'm in a
(26:08):
different field now.
I said, well, that doesn't, Idon't think that matters, like
they're.
They certainly know, and that'simportant.
And I immediately I calledbecause I don't understand.
Well, so so what?
So you're saying you don't careabout the license.
Can I use that as a bargainingchip, you know, to get your case
dismissed or reduced or get thecharge changed.
(26:31):
But it is so powerful.
But sometimes you don't wantthe prosecution to know, because
then they dig their heels inwhere the prosecutor is like no,
he doesn't ever need to, thatperson doesn't ever need to be
in that line of work again.
So I know what they want, butI'm not giving it to them.
Well, and so that was that wasvery painful.
(26:53):
I mean, that's the game ofsurvivor outwit, outlast and
outplay.
And so I had to wait.
That prosecutor was just sogung ho.
I dragged out the case until Ifound that, until that
prosecutor got moved to adifferent court.
I mean that you know.
That's why it's criticallyimportant.
I think your licensing can beyour.
Your license can be your bestdefense and your best offense.
Speaker 2 (27:19):
Yeah.
What it sounds like, though, isthat a an expert again really
trying to drive it home, becauseyou know, these are the experts
.
These are the ones who, day inand day out, they practice this
type of law.
Speaker 3 (27:31):
When you get these two types of experts together,
they can really comprehensivelylook at your situation, find a
strategy that puts you in thebest light One of the things
I've and I've spoken to Troyabout this in the past and I'm
glad that you know Justin ismindful of this is you know the
issue of the possibility thatcriminal defense lawyers may be
(27:54):
committing malpractice in manyscenarios when they fail to
obtain information about theirclient's license license and
whether that could ultimately beused as a bargaining chip down
the road, as Justin mentionedearlier, or not.
It's still important that thesecriminal defense attorneys are
(28:15):
made aware and ask the rightquestions in their initial
interviews with their clients ofwhether or not they possess any
kind of professional license ofsorts.
There's that possibility thatmalpractice could be committed
if you don't.
You know if you end up, youknow, entering into a deal of
some sort, or you know deferredadjudication or whatever kind of
(28:35):
potential dismissal from acriminal defense attorney's
perspective, as they see as apotential dismissal of a case.
But in fact it is a finalconviction by you know the way
it's interpreted by theregulatory agency and lo and
behold, you may have justcommitted malpractice at that
point or at the very least youcould have an upset client who
(28:58):
is going to try to test thatmalpractice by reporting that
lawyer to the bar.
So it's really important thatyou know.
It's good to see you knowlawyers like Justin is mindful
of the existence of theseprofessional licenses, that you
know that their criminal defenseclients possess.
Speaker 2 (29:17):
Yeah, absolutely Very insightful, tony, Such a good
point to make.
Speaker 4 (29:22):
Tony, you are spot on man.
I will tell you, my friend, Icringe if I see someone in a
coat and tie, a defendant who'swell-dressed, and I see some
defense attorney pleading themout and I wonder just exactly
what you said.
I wonder.
I hope they don't have alicense.
Speaker 3 (29:42):
Right, right, absolutely.
Speaker 4 (29:45):
Because that lawyer may not have one at the end.
Speaker 3 (29:47):
Yeah, exactly right.
Speaker 2 (29:50):
Well, thank you all again.
So much for your time thisafternoon.
It's been a really eye-openingepisode for our viewers.
I think there's a lot of greattakeaways and insights To our
viewers.
If you are unsure about a legalchallenge that you may be
facing, consult with an attorneyand attorneys.
You can always reach out to atrusted colleague or an expert
(30:14):
for assistance on someoverlapping cases.
As always, you can learn moreabout this topic and enhance
your professional career bysubscribing to Know your
Regulator and until next time,take care.
Thank you guys.
Speaker 4 (30:30):
Thank you.
Speaker 1 (30:32):
Know your Regulator.
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