May 23, 2025 • 28 mins
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In this episode of the Lead Learn Laugh Grow podcast, host Randy Gooch converses with Josh Varner, a nationally recognized trauma-informed speaker and author. Josh shares his extensive experience working with individuals affected by childhood trauma, emphasizing the importance of connection in leadership. He discusses practical strategies for leaders and educators to support trauma-impacted individuals, including the significance of humor and storytelling in fostering trust. The conversation also explores the prevalence of trauma in society, the brain's response to trauma, and the need for resilience and perseverance. Josh introduces the 'relax, reconnect, reteach' approach, offering actionable insights for managing stress and digital addiction. This episode is packed with valuable advice for anyone looking to make a significant impact in their professional and personal lives.
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Episode Transcript
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Nancy (00:00):
Welcome back to the Lead Learn Laugh Grow podcast we’re
joined by Josh Varner, anationally recognized
trauma-informed speaker, author,and passionate advocate for
supporting individuals impactedby childhood trauma.
Josh has delivered over 400engaging presentations across
the country, equipping schools,organizations, and communities
with practical tools to createsafe, connected environments
where people can thrive.
Josh is the author of Be TheirHero: An Educator’s Guide to
(00:22):
Trauma-Informed Care, a powerfulresource that offers educators
actionable strategies forunderstanding and responding to
trauma in the classroom andbeyond.
With a background incommunity-based mental health,
school counseling, and leadingprograms for at-risk youth, Josh
brings a grounded, real-worldperspective that resonates with
audiences from all walks oflife.
In this conversation, heexplores the lasting impact of
(00:44):
trauma on individuals and teams,the power of connection in
leadership, and the importanceof perseverance and
adaptability.
He also shares how humor andstorytelling can be powerful
tools for building trust andbreaking down barriers—and
addresses the challenges ofstress and digital addiction in
today’s world.
Whether you're a leader,educator, or simply someone
looking to make a greaterimpact, this episode is packed
(01:05):
with insight, inspiration, andpractical wisdom you won’t want
to miss.
I’m Nancy and I have theabsolute pleasure of introducing
today’s host—someone who hasspent his career leading,
inspiring, and developingothers.
He’s a seasoned educationleader, consultant, speaker, and
executive coach, with abackground that spans education,
business, and even the military.
(01:25):
As a former Chief OperationsOfficer of a major school
district, a career and technicaleducation innovator, and now the
creator of Results Matter LeaderDevelopment, he’s been at the
forefront of leadership andinfluence for decades.
But that’s not all—he’s also aJohn Maxwell Certified Executive
Director, a national keynotespeaker, and the driving force
behind this very podcast.
His passion?
Helping YOU lead boldly, learncontinuously, laugh often, and
(01:48):
grow relentlessly.
So, without further ado, let’sdive into today’s episode with
our host—Randy Gooch!
Randy (01:54):
All right, ladies and gentlemen, I'm excited to have
Josh Varner, our guest with ustoday.
Josh, how are you doing
JOSH (01:59):
Thanks for having me on, Randy.
I'm excited to talk to youtoday.
Randy (02:02):
Great.
Let's just dive right in.
I've got a few rapid firequestions.
just so the audience can startgetting a feel for who and how
you communicate, and then we'lldig a little deeper as we go
along.
Josh, give me a one worddescription.
Of your approach to leadership.
And I realize that's hard for aguy who speaks on the stage to
narrow it down to one word, butgive it a shot.
JOSH (02:25):
I think my one word would be connection.
I think you need to build greatrelationships with people in
order to lead them.
Randy (02:30):
That's awesome.
John Maxwell came out with abook a few years ago and it was,
everybody Communicates, but FewConnect, and that's true.
There's a lot of talk.
we get bombarded by media.
Sometimes we're talking and wewonder if we're being effective
and so I think that connectionpiece is real important.
So thanks for that.
Finish this sentence.
Every leader needs to understandtrauma because,
JOSH (02:52):
I'd say because it impacts so many of the people that you
work with every day.
And really everyone's beenimpacted by trauma, but we know,
20, 25% of people aresignificantly impacted by
trauma.
So whether we realize that ornot, it's impacting us, our
ability to perform at the levelwe want to, the quality of our
relationships and our teamsbeing successful.
Randy (03:08):
What's a moment that you might have said, this is why I
do this work?
JOSH (03:15):
Yeah.
I really fell in love with thespeaking that I've been doing
these last three years, and thebest part for me actually isn't
when we talk a lot about servingkids impacted by trauma, but I
love when people come up to meafterwards and they say, this
helped me understand myselfbetter, my family better, et
cetera.
I was working with a schoolleader recently and He said it
transformed his relationshipwith his foster child.
And so to me that's the reallycool stuff when people have a
personal impact in their livesbecause they understand this
(03:35):
work.
Randy (03:37):
Excellent, excellent.
And I'm a practical guy.
I listen to a lot of podcasts.
I listen to speakers and theones that seem to make always
that greatest connection with meare those that I can see a
practical implementation of thebig thinking that was talked
about, how can we make therubber hit the road with that?
I know in our previousconversation you talked a little
bit about humor and keeping someof these heavy subjects light.
(03:58):
So talk to me about somethingsurprisingly funny that might
have happened during one of yourtalks
JOSH (04:04):
Surprisingly funny.
I just love hearing the storiesabout especially the little
kids, all the different wildstuff they do.
And I think sometimes it's soserious in the moment and then
later on when people can stepback away from the emotion,
reflect a lot of the stuff ispretty funny.
people share stories theaudience gets a laugh and, we
realize that we make this stuffserious every day.
It feel serious in the moment,but in the big picture, a lot of
this stuff isn't as life ordeath as we think it is.
Randy (04:27):
I like that sometimes we think we're in a crisis and
sometimes it's not a crisis.
good advice.
If you had the chance to go backand give your younger self some
advice, what might that be?
JOSH (04:39):
I think everything that's come my way has come my way for
a reason.
everything is being presented toyou for your growth.
a lot of times you're not gonnalike things in the moment, but
it's gonna fit into a biggerpicture.
And every relationship is anopportunity to learn, grow,
every experience you're gonnahave in life, and an opportunity
to learn and grow.
now that I'm, a little bit olderand a little wiser, I can
reflect back and say, That wasdivine redirection, but at the
time it felt like rejection.
just to remind myself, even whenthose things are uncomfortable,
(05:00):
even when those things don'twork out the way you want
they're fitting into a biggerplan.
be patient with that.
Randy (05:06):
Awesome.
So I know many of our listenersthey're leaders in education
agencies, institution,businesses, ministries they lead
people and they influenceculture.
Your story connects deeply withthat.
Let's talk about your leadershipjourney.
Take us back to your originalstory.
What life experiences haveshaped your passion for
(05:26):
trauma-informed leadership?
JOSH (05:29):
I went to school for school counseling.
I really wanted to be a highschool counselor and high school
football coach.
That was my dream.
But I fell in love with collegefootball.
I loved the recruiting, thegrind, the competition.
I went on to become a collegefootball coach for about 10
years.
I thought it was gonna be mylife's work.
But then I connected with mywife we got married, started
having kids, and it was just,how the heck am I supposed to do
this profession?
That's a grind, seven days aweek, 12 hour day kind of job?
and be a great dad.
And so I left college coaching.
(05:49):
I took a job in community-basedmental health in Mexico,
Missouri.
And what I found real quicklywhen I did that job was, I had
the master's degree, but reallywhat I learned how to do was
label kids and we medicatedkids.
And what I found was all thesekids I was working with were
significantly impacted trauma.
And but I didn't know how tohelp them.
I saw my first trauma informedspeaker about 10 years ago.
It was very transformational forme.
Shifted my paradigm away fromwhat's wrong with this person,
(06:10):
to what is this personexperienced?
And I'm a lifelong learner, so Iread books and went to
conferences.
the podcast is one of myfavorite ways to learn too.
the more I understood, the moreI was able to help these people
thrive and recover from trauma.
And when you have somethingthat's good, you wanna share it
with other people.
And so I started working in theschool system.
I would talk to foster parents.
I never thought I was gonna be aprofessional speaker.
That was never my dream.
That was a, my, I just wannacoach football.
But.
But you just wanna share stuffthat works and it just grew and
(06:31):
grew, especially post COVID.
It blew up and I've been doingthis full time now for.
Three years I wrote a book onthe topic and you're just trying
to help people really make senseof the people that they're
trying to serve every day.
hopefully, through that processyou're able to understand
yourself better, your familybetter, your community better,
and we can get more supportive.
I think we all wanna helppeople, but we don't always
understand why they'restruggling.
to me this is a great frameworkto understand the suffering
(06:52):
that's around us.
Randy (06:55):
how do you lead when working with trauma impacted
individual or teams?
JOSH (07:02):
Yeah, I think the biggest thing we're trying to get our
team on board with is we have tohave an understanding in the
beginning.
how big is this problem?
We need to understand howprevalent it is, right?
then we need to recognize peoplewhen they're impacted by trauma.
what do they look like?
How do we recognize thatsomebody's in distress?
once we have that framework thenthe tools in our toolbox are, is
we gotta learn how to stay calm.
Because when you interact withsomebody who's dysregulated, and
this could be a customer, thiscould be a student, this could
be a family member.
(07:23):
Your natural response is to getdysregulated too.
when you can learn how to staycalm, that's gonna help regulate
that person.
we're gonna learn how to listenand validate their experience.
That's what's gonna bring thatconnection in.
I'm gonna empathize.
listen to you, validate whatyou're going through, and as a
leader, I need to learn how torefer people to external
supports.
'cause I want to help them intheir own healing journey.
I recognize you're struggling.
I understand why you'restruggling now.
I want to help you in yourjourney and get you referred out
(07:44):
to somebody who understands thisproblem can help you on your
journey.
Randy (07:47):
Gotcha.
So you mentioned first figuringout how do we know how big this
problem is?
And we're talking about trauma.
So are we as a society in anepidemic?
And for some people that don'talways talk in this type of
language, what does that reallyboil down to?
What is trauma?
'Cause for me, I can say somethings are traumatic, but they
may not have impacted me yet.
(08:09):
There are other things that Imight not package in that trauma
box but help us understand that.
JOSH (08:14):
Yeah.
that's a great question.
I define trauma as anything thatoverwhelms your brain's ability
to cope.
Randy, what's traumatic for youwon't be traumatic for somebody
else.
And what's traumatic forsomebody else won't be traumatic
for you.
a lot of times we have thismisconception that it has to be
one of these big events, youdon't get to decide.
I've seen huge events have noimpact on somebody.
And I've seen small events havemassive impacts, and we don't
get to pick what our brainassociates with.
I'll give you an example.
I worked with police officersquite a bit an officer, got shot
(08:36):
in the line of duty.
He got patched up.
He goes, I'm doing really well.
It surprisingly hasn't had thatbig an impact on me.
He goes, but my partner got PTSDfor me getting shot.
He can't do the job anymore.
Can you believe it?
And I'm like, yes.
And we
see this all the time with our soldiers one PTSD one, fine.
We see it with children goingthrough something common like
divorce.
One kid is, yes, twoChristmases.
They're not fighting anymore.
The other kid, my whole world isshattered by that event.
(08:56):
it's very individualized.
a big part of this movement isunderstanding I'm not gonna
judge somebody else's response'cause they didn't have control
over that.
What's gonna traumatize oneperson will not traumatize
another.
The big study that got peopletalking about this, was called
the Adverse Childhood ExperienceStudy.
it was the largest longitudinalstudy in human history.
They looked at over 17,000people.
It was the CDC partnered withKaiser Permanente.
(09:16):
basically what they wanted tofigure out is how traumatized is
the average American.
And what they found was aboutone outta eight.
We're significantly impacted bytrauma.
So that was four or more ofthese.
Things like domestic violencephysical abuse happened to'em as
a child.
And the highest score you canget is 10 four more is what we
consider high risk.
But this very it was privateinsurance in Diego, so it was a
very affluent sample size.
And even within that group, theysaw one outta eight people were
(09:37):
significantly impacted bytrauma.
And so I always say, in aworking class community, blue
collar community, like I live inJefferson City, I think we're
more like one out of five.
And so I think what you realizeis there's a lot more people
that are significantly impactedby trauma and they're way more
at risk for things likesubstance abuse, homelessness,
mental health issues shortenedlife expectancy, et cetera, it's
a really significant.
Part of our population.
the reason why I work withschools, these are the kids that
(09:58):
are typically struggling inschool.
These are the kids thattypically aren't graduating,
they're having a lot ofbehavioral issues, et cetera,
are the kids that aresignificantly impacted by
childhood trauma.
my work is really teaching thehelpers, Hey, how do we
recognize that kid's intostress?
And what are the tools that aregonna help that kid heal and
thrive?
Because the toolbox for that kidimpacted by trauma is not gonna
be the same toolbox as the restof the kids.
And then getting people on boardwith that.
Randy (10:18):
Are these issues that we're talking about, are they
always rooted in childhoodexperience or could a child be
fairly well intact, have greatsupports and then later as an
adult based on experience and.
Problems and events developthese adverse reactions to
trauma and these disabling typebehaviors
JOSH (10:37):
Yeah.
The younger you are, the moreimpactful the trauma is.
That's the best way I candescribe it.
I hear a lot of people say, whathappened when they were two?
They don't remember.
It doesn't matter.
And it's wrong.
Two is more impactful than 12.
12 is more impactful than 22.
you can be traumatized at anypoint in your life, but when
you're a child, it's a lot moreimpactful because your brain is
developing a lot quicker.
Your brain is trying to figureout, am I safe?
Am I loved?
And so when you have thoseevents as a child, you can't
understand them.
(10:57):
You can't conceptualize them aswell as you can as an adult.
So yes, these events can happento us throughout life.
But the most impactful time isactually the third trimester
before that baby's even born.
Whatever's happened to thatmother is being imprinted onto
that child.
a lot of these kids get hurt andthey don't even know what's
happened to them psychologically'cause it happened before.
They don't remember it, buttheir brain remembers, their
body remembers.
it does definitely reappearthroughout life.
And that healing process cancontinue throughout life.
(11:18):
When they hit puberty, forexample, you'll see a lot of
behaviors that maybe we didn'tdeal with before start.
At different phases ofadulthood, different
relationships workrelationships, personal
relationships.
It can manifest in a lot ofdifferent ways.
And so I always encourage peoplewe're all on a lifelong healing
journey.
What I want you to do isrecognize, hey, this is
something I struggle with.
And then get curious and gethelp.
'Cause you can always become amore healed, a better version of
(11:38):
yourself.
Because when you don't know thisstuff, it impacts you in a lot
of different ways and it affectsyour relationship.
ITF affects your work.
It inf affects your ability tomake an impact on other people.
we all have work to do.
Some people got a lot more thanothers but I just encourage
people to do work.
Randy (11:52):
what are some common mistakes that well-meaning
people or well-meaning leadersmake when trying to support
people who've experienced thistrauma?
JOSH (12:00):
Yeah, so some people minimize, so it's not that bad.
At least it's not this I wentthrough worse.
What they're trying to do isminimize somebody's experience
to make themselves feel better.
And it ain't about you, it'sabout them.
And so I see a lot of thatminimization going on.
That's not good.
The idea that we can punish thetrauma outta somebody, that's a
myth that isn't helpful.
for a lot of people who haven'tbeen significantly impacted by
trauma, when they made mistakes,if people gave them punishment,
it.
(12:21):
Was a good guider to tell themnot to do anymore.
That positive, negativereinforcement worked really well
for UNT traumatized brains.
They don't work well for thesetraumatized people.
And so what happens is you'reconstantly giving'em negative
reinforcement.
We're actually reinforcing theirtrauma, and we get stuck in that
negative spiral.
And so that's a big one.
in our culture, we're obsessedwith punishment.
Punishment means You hurt me,I'm gonna hurt you.
Our whole criminal justicesystem's based on punishment and
(12:41):
that's why we have really highrecidivism rates.
It doesn't work.
I'm a big believer indiscipline.
Discipline comes from the rootword disciple, which means to
teach.
And so when I see a poorbehavior, I'm thinking, this is
an opportunity to grow.
People do better when they knowbetter.
How am I gonna help you grow andlearn from this experience?
That's what I'm passionateabout.
And so when I see, a kid, adult,whoever, if they're making
mistakes, Like, how do I helpthem learn and grow through that
experience?
Randy (13:01):
All right.
You've mentioned learning that'sa key part of what I try to
bring out and present to ouraudience in this podcast.
Can you break down somepractical tools, approaches that
leaders and educators and peoplethat are trying to work with
people that have experiencedthis trauma?
That can be implemented prettyeasily, without maybe a degree
in psychology or years and yearsof trauma informed training.
JOSH (13:25):
Yeah.
And so the cool thing about thisis I call'em, therapeutic
moments a term I got from BrucePerry, the brain does not care
who provides these therapeuticmoments.
When we help people feel safeand connected, that's gonna help
'em heal, Social workers arereally important, therapists are
really important, but they don'tget enough time with
individuals.
So we really wanna createsystems where lots of people can
provide these safe and connectedmoments, right?
And so I always say my schoolstaffs all the time, they're
(13:46):
these kids' brains don't care ifthe therapeutic moment comes
from a licensed clinical socialworker or a bus driver.
From a coach or teacher, from acustodian or food service
personnel, the brain doesn'tcare.
They're all worth the same.
So how do we create environmentswhere everybody sees that kid
that's struggling or an adult ina work environment and wraps
them with as much loving safetycare as possible?
that's what actually helps theirbrain heal.
the problem is, most of the timewhen somebody's struggling,
people don't want anything to dowith them.
(14:06):
When people are struggling,they're a pain in the butt.
I don't want any, I don't wannainteract'em.
And if I am interacting with'em,I'm gonna have a lot of negative
interactions with them.
That actually reinforces theirtrauma.
And so we gotta learn is how toyou, that's why understanding
how big the problem is,recognizing when somebody's
dysregulated because theirtrauma.
And then hey, we're gonna listenand validate and help them, fix
what they broke, whether it'srelationally or through that
process.
that's something I do a ton whenI teach parents, a lot of
(14:27):
parents are probably listeningto this.
Podcasts I talk about relax,reconnect, reteach.
Anytime you have to disciplineyour child, go through these
three steps.
And relax means I'm gonna calmmyself down first, and this is
what I have to do as a dad.
I'm really good with otherpeople's kids.
With my own kids, it's more of achallenge.
I have to be calm before Idiscipline my child.
Then I'm gonna calm down my kid.
that could be I, we're nottalking until they're calm, that
could be, we're go for a walk.
That could be we're gonnadistract'em with something and
(14:49):
then reconnect.
I'm gonna listen and validate.
You are really angry, you'rereally frustrated, you were
really disappointed.
I'm not validating theirbehavior.
I'm validating the feelingbehind it.
when they feel heard andvalidated, they feel close to
me.
They need to feel close to me ifI'm gonna change their lives.
So that's really what I'm doingis safety and connection.
You have to have those things inplace before somebody can learn.
I achieve safety, I achieveconnection.
Now I wanna reteach, which is,dude, you gotta fix what you
(15:11):
broke.
So as a parent, it's Hey, youput a hole in the wall.
Now we're gonna have to learnhow to fix holes in the wall.
We're gonna have to cut thisdrywall out.
We're gonna have to patch it,we're gonna have to paint it,
we're gonna have sand, all thesesteps, right?
If it's relational, it's going,man, you hurt your coworker.
You hurt your best friend, youhurt your sister.
How are you gonna fix thatrelationship?
I'm gonna apologize.
'cause in that act of repairingwhat they broke.
That is how they learn andchange.
If I just say, you're removedfrom this family, you have to go
down here, you have to be awayfrom us.
(15:32):
that doesn't create change.
I want to create change.
And that reteach, thatrestorative practice actually
teaches them.
So that we don't get stuck inthese same behavioral cycles,
and that's why anybody inmanagement will tell you that's
the problem.
Anybody in education, anyparent, that's where we get
frustrated when we see the samebehavior over and over again.
If you follow that three stepprocess, you're gonna break
those cycles and it takes moretime on the front end, but it
takes way less time with seeingthe same behavior over and over
(15:53):
again.
Randy (15:54):
Gotcha.
Gimme those three points again.
JOSH (15:56):
Relax, reconnect, reteach.
people learn in threes.
That's why that was intentional.
you and them have to be relaxed.
Now I have to connect with them.
Now the reteach is, we're gonnafix what we broke.
Randy (16:06):
awesome.
It takes me a couple times,We're gonna pass along to the
audience that way.
you've alluded to the brain,what's happening in the brain
during trauma, because I knowthat what you're talking about
is repairing that brain let's,dig a little deeper.
What's happening in that brainwhen people are traumatized, I
don't think everybody knows thatI don't think we even think
about those things that arehappening to us that we don't
(16:28):
even really know that arehappening.
And there was a big term a fewyears ago in education,
brain-based learning looking atwhat is happening in that brain
for learning to be optimized.
But tell us about the brain andtrauma and how that goes hand in
hand.
JOSH (16:43):
So I feel like we have to take.
Neuroscience and we have to makeit really simple.
So there's people like BrucePerry, Peter Levine Dr.
Godber mate, like people thatare amazing at this work.
what I try to do is take alltheir awesome work and make it
so simple that I can teach it toa low functioning parent a bus
driver a teacher or a middleschool kid, I always say trauma
is a simple understandingtrauma.
Simple is understanding front ofthe brain, back of the brain.
Front of the brain, back of thebrain.
It's that easy.
(17:03):
We're not even gonna talk brainparts.
We're gonna keep it reallysimple.
So the front of the brain iscool.
This is where me and you areboth right now.
Whenever you feel safe andconnected, you can access the
front of your brain.
So we can learn, we can makedecisions, we can grow, we can
do complicated thinking.
think about what humanity's beenable to accomplish.
bridges, roads, architecture,engineering.
It's incredible what we've beenable to accomplish as a species.
'cause we have a really robustfront of the brain.
(17:24):
But we also have the back of thebrain.
the back of the brain is laserfast, so you have no control
over it, but it's instantaneousand automatic.
So you're doing digestion rightnow.
You're digesting breakfast.
You're not thinking about that.
The back of the brain does itautomatically breathing heart
rate pressure.
Okay, so now here's theinteresting thing, Randy, you're
in your studio.
If a bear came in and attackedyou, do you want to be in the
front of the brain or the backof the brain?
'Cause you can imagine if yourancestors 25,000 years ago were
(17:46):
drawn on the cave walls and theSaber two tiger came wandering
in your cave and you stayed inthe front of the brain, you'd be
like, what doing here?
Why does the Saber two Tigerhave big teeth?
Why is he grounding up my kids?
If our brains worked that way,we all would've got Scooby
Snacked in the cave.
We have this really interestingthing in the middle of our brain
called the amygdala, So justthink smoke detector.
You'll have a smoke detector inyour brain, and whenever you're
in a life or death situation,that smoke detector goes off.
(18:08):
It shuts off all that slow,complex brain activity and it
transfers all to the back of thebrain with instantaneous
automatic.
So if you're getting attacked bya bear, your smoke detector's
going off the front of thebrain's going offline.
Now the back of the brain'skicking in and the back of the
brain can only do three things.
Fight, flight or freeze.
I always joke if I'm in thestudio with you, Randy, I'm
running'cause that's gonna giveme the best chance of survival.
And what your brain wants to dois run if you can run, if you
(18:30):
can't run, it wants you tofight.
If you can't fight your brainwants to freeze.
So Randy will probably getfreeze, I'll get flight.
And that gives each one of usthe best chance to survival.
And I know we all like to thinkwe're gonna be heroes in these
moments, but realistically, yourbrain picks your survival most
of the time.
and we judge people and we saythey should have done that.
you don't have control most ofthe time.
Okay?
But here's the interesting part.
Remember every single traumaticevent of your life forever.
(18:53):
Not five years, not 15 forever.
But it doesn't do it throughmemories, it does it through
your senses.
We'll just taste, touch, smellhere, see?
And if I get the same stimuli,I'm gonna get the same back of
the brain that kept me alivelast time.
if you smell a bear a year fromnow, you're gonna go, I gotta
run.
If you hear a bear growl, Igotta run.
Randy (19:09):
Josh, it's always easy to think of trauma informed care as
something that's heavy because alot of times it is, particularly
when we start thinking about theevents that have traumatized
people.
And it is serious work becausefor some it ends up being life
changing and disabling.
But I think you have a knackfor, and one of the reasons I
think you're having so muchsuccess in the world of speaking
(19:32):
about this you've been able tokeep it light.
So how are you blending that asa communicator between the heavy
subject and yet keeping it lightenough that.
People don't walk away soburdened that they're
traumatized and paralyzed.
JOSH (19:47):
Yeah.
Here's the deal.
we know that pretty mucheverybody's been impacted by
trauma.
Some people a lot more thanothers and most of my audience
people are in the helpingprofess.
So the bottom line is if Itrigger them by talking about
their own trauma, they're notgonna learn from me.
I have to be really intentional.
it's really not how you, theinformation that you present to
(20:07):
the audience is how you present.
Humor and storytelling,especially if I'm gonna go into
something that's a littleheavier of a topic, I always
have jokes built into that partbecause I know that like the
jokes will regulate the audienceI use a lot of storytelling
because people remember stories,and so the more I can engage
them with storytelling, the themore they're gonna remember this
stuff long term.
And so whatever concept I'mtrying to teach, I try to
(20:28):
integrate a story into thatconcept so that they're gonna
remember it.
Randy (20:34):
Very good.
there's probably a millionreasons that you're connecting
with audiences and it is veryimportant.
you mentioned stories, tell alittle bit more about why you're
trying to connect with stories.
I believe it as well.
share how you craft a story toconnect with something that's
traumatic or heavy.
JOSH (20:53):
I tell you, you get better at this the more reps you get.
when I first started speaking, Idon't think.
I was nearly as impactful as I'mtoday.
I've been doing this about fiveyears.
I've been doing it full-time forabout three years, I would just
tell a story and see theaudience react to it, or people
would come up to you afterwardsand that was what resonated.
Or you'd get your feedback andthey would talk about that
story.
And so you're like, a lot oftimes you think a story's gonna
be pretty good and it's not.
And it is the same thing withhumor.
All my jokes were one-offs thatI told.
(21:15):
And then the audience respondedto'em, my brain tickles and
goes, Ooh, that was pretty good.
And I would say the thing withspeaking is I get now why
comedians have to go to thesmall improv mics and try out
their material.
'cause there's a lot of times Ithink this story is gold.
This joke is gold and it bombs.
Most of my good stuff wasaccidental, to be honest with
you.
if somebody's thinking about howdo I create a message, I try to
create a story in with each oneof those, and I'm getting better
at that.
(21:35):
I've been doing it longer nowbut you don't really know what's
gonna land and not land untilyou get out there and do it.
And I just encourage people to,have that courage and then get
better each time you do it.
Randy (21:43):
Great advice.
Let's talk a little bit aboutsome personal growth and what
you want from others.
How has your work withTrauma-informed care changed you
personally over the years?
JOSH (21:55):
Yeah, I think we're all in our healing journey, and it's
not a judgmental thing.
we all have stuff.
We all wanna grow.
I tell myself this a lot,whatever I don't like in others
is what I don't like in myself.
Whatever situations dysregulateme, that's something unhealed
from my past.
most of us do this, and this iswhat I used to do.
If there's a dark corner, Iwanna run away from it.
I never wanna look in there, Inever wanna open that box again.
(22:16):
I want to be oblivious to it.
now I run to those dark corners.
I get curious why I get so upsetin this situation?
Why do I shut down on thissituation?
Why do I get, and then I try toexamine that.
If you can start understandingwhere it came from and then it's
like, how do I get regulated inthat situation?
So what are the tools I can putin my toolbox?
I can go for a walk, I can dosome exercise.
Some people it's mindfulness.
My wife likes doing stainedglass coloring.
(22:38):
what you wanna do is train yourbrain to be calm in that
situation.
And I'll give you the personalexample.
I was driving.
I drive a lot for work.
If somebody does somethingdangerous, that's a trigger for
me.
I get upset and so I'll say abad word.
And my wife was like, what's upwith that?
Why?
Why do you get so upset?
you get defensive.
it's not me, it's them.
They're doing the unsafe thing.
I'm justified in my reaction.
She goes, no, let's get care.
(22:58):
Like you get really upset.
Like you're normally not likethat.
That's not the best version ofyou.
Why do you get, and so what Irealized is.
Anger is my protector for fear.
when somebody does somethingunsafe, it's actually fear.
I don't feel safe in thatsituation.
But anger is my bodyguard forfear.
And so what I do now is Irecognize that anger coming out
and I just tell myself, you'resafe.
(23:18):
You're safe.
You're safe.
And I have this new little hackI do'cause I'm on I 70 all the
time.
people do dumb stuff on thathighway every day.
And so you get a lot ofpractice.
when I drive past that personthat cut me off, I just give'em
a thumbs down now.
I don't flip'em off.
just thumbs down.
it takes all that negativeenergy out of it.
They laugh a lot of times orthey give me a, I'm sorry and
I'm not so angry.
and the more I can do that, themore I'm not gonna be as
(23:39):
triggered the next time ithappens.
And so that's just an example ofme, Hey, I'm gonna get curious.
This is why it does it, thatanger's trying to protect me,
tell myself I'm safe, and thenhave some tools in my toolbox to
get a different outcome.
Randy (23:50):
I hate to admit it, but you've convicted me a little bit
on the thumbs down technique.
I'm gonna probably have toimplement that because yeah, I
too drive I 70 a lot and yes,there's a lot of everybody's on
the phone.
Oh Yeah.
A lot to be angry about outthere sometimes.
But alright, thanks for sharingit.
What do you want every audiencemember that you talk with in a
speech or a podcast listener towalk away believing about
(24:12):
themselves?
JOSH (24:13):
Yeah, I just think every person has value.
So I want you to know yourvalue.
I want you to see your value.
We all have a purpose, so we'reall here to do something.
the more you can see your ownvalue, the more you can
understand what you're here todo who you're here to help, who
you're here to impact.
And you are worth taking thetime to be the best version of
yourself.
And so the more you can heal,the more work you can do on
yourself, the bigger the impactyou're gonna have, the more
you're gonna be able to live outyour purpose.
(24:33):
I just want people to hear thatyou have value.
We all have work to do.
unfortunately, a lot of times weinternalize this stuff, right?
we have negative thoughts aboutourselves that we're, we're
this, we're that.
I want people to understand thatthere's roots and all of those
unhealthy things, but you'reworth the work to heal and
you're gonna make a biggerimpact the more work you do.
Randy (24:50):
So what's next for you?
What's a big adventure?
What's a big objective or a goalthat you have in mind?
JOSH (24:57):
I'm a big believer that my audience is always right, and if
they're telling me we have aproblem, then I need to work
hard to solve that.
when I started talking abouttrauma.
I was excited that so manypeople wanted to hear the
message, but people would say,Our teachers are stressed.
Our healthcare workers arestressed.
We're struggling with stress,especially post pandemic.
so my second talk was teachingpeople how to understand what's
going on in their bodies ofstress and how to complete the
stress cycle.
lately, the last year and ahalf, everybody's telling me.
(25:19):
we are struggling with thesecell phones, these smartphones,
these youth mental health.
We're addicted to our phones.
What do we do?
so I rolled out a new talkcalled Digital Detox.
I got to share it.
the response was awesome.
I'm excited about talking abouthow smartphones are impacting
our mental health.
And then, but more importantly,what do we do about it?
And so what can I do about, as aparent, I'm a first generation
parent where my kid has accessto technology.
And so it was so much fun for meto learn about what I can do as
(25:41):
a parent, what can we do as asociety about this problem?
And most importantly, what canwe do individually?
the average person spends 48hours a week staring at their
phone.
And so you can imagine how muchof your life you're giving up.
For a lot of us, it's 20, 30years of our life staring at
that phone.
I know we're not throwing thephones away.
I know they're not goinganywhere, but can you recapture
some of that time and put ittowards things that matter to
you?
And maybe for you it's movement,maybe it's family time,
(26:02):
connection time, whatever itmight be.
I want to help people get theirlife back because these phones
have taken a lot away from us,and I don't think a lot of
people realize it.
Randy (26:09):
Yeah.
And it's interesting times herein the last couple of days
during the wrapping up of theMissouri legislative season they
just passed a ban for cellphones in school being in
retiring from the schoolbusiness.
I know we grappled with that foryears.
I think generally speaking fromthe inside education.
Arena, it'll be viewed assomewhat positive because now we
(26:30):
have somebody else helping uswith this, now it's not just an
individual teacher oradministrator being a bad
person.
I do think it's importantbecause I think it's a signal
that our society, our governmentour leaders are starting to
figure out too how, and.
How much these devices are trulyimpacting our learning, our
behavior in every form of ourlife.
(26:51):
And when you put it in thatconcept of the number of years
in a lifetime, we're gonna spendstaring at a screen.
That, that's amazing.
In my personal opinion, probablynot a good, amazing, I like your
message about what we can add toour life in place of that?
And there's so many positivethings.
So I know you you have a bookout, is that correct?
JOSH (27:10):
I do.
Yeah.
You can get on amazon.com.
I know you all have access tothat.
So throw my book in there.
Be their Hero and Educator'sGuide to Trauma-Informed Care.
I wrote it as a book study, soif you wanna learn more and
bring somebody else along everychapter is a reflection
question.
it's a good way to learn as agroup.
a lot of the organizations Iwork with, that's how they
continue that education after Ileave.
And I'm gotten good goodresponse from it.
I'm proud of it.
Randy (27:29):
Excellent.
if you've heard something onthis podcast today that Josh has
been sharing with us go to thatbook.
You can get it a little bitdeeper.
Also, Josh, if somebody'shearing you today and wants to
bring you in for your speakingengagement for a group or an
audience how would they getahold of you?
JOSH (27:45):
you can email me josh varner consulting@gmail.com.
That's all one word, Josh varnerwith a v, not a b
consulting@gmail.com.
You could all call me on thephone,(319) 899-9843.
Love to hear from you.
I'd love to connect with you.
I'm passionate about sharingthis message.
I originally started workingwith educators, but So many
different audience groups havesaid, this is something that our
group is struggling with too,whether it's healthcare workers
(28:05):
I started working with funeralhome groups a whole bunch of
different groups that I,originally didn't think I would
be working with.
But what you find is no matterwhat the organization is, a lot
of folks are struggling withtheir mental health right now.
And if you can provide engagingeasy to implement solutions, you
can provide a lot of value tothose organizations.
Randy (28:20):
Josh, I want to thank you for spending time with us today
and the great information andinsight that you've given us
about trauma, how that affectsour behaviors and a little bit
about how to communicate better.
Thank you for being a leader inthis field and hope to have you
back on in a future episode.
JOSH (28:37):
That'd be wonderful.
Randy, I appreciate theopportunity, big fan of the
podcast, and so excited.
I gotta be a part of it andwould love to connect with you
again in the future.
Nancy (28:44):
"Thanks for joining us on Lead Learn Laugh Grow.
If you enjoyed today's episode,be sure to FOLLOW wherever you
get your podcasts and share itwith a friend who's passionate
about growth.
Connect with Randy on LinkedInor visit RMLeadership.com to
continue your leadershipjourney.
Until next time, keep growing!"
Welcome back to the Lead Learn Laugh Grow podcast we’re
joined by Josh Varner, anationally recognized
trauma-informed speaker, author,and passionate advocate for
supporting individuals impactedby childhood trauma.
Josh has delivered over 400engaging presentations across
the country, equipping schools,organizations, and communities
with practical tools to createsafe, connected environments
where people can thrive.
Josh is the author of Be TheirHero: An Educator’s Guide to
(00:22):
Trauma-Informed Care, a powerfulresource that offers educators
actionable strategies forunderstanding and responding to
trauma in the classroom andbeyond.
With a background incommunity-based mental health,
school counseling, and leadingprograms for at-risk youth, Josh
brings a grounded, real-worldperspective that resonates with
audiences from all walks oflife.
In this conversation, heexplores the lasting impact of
(00:44):
trauma on individuals and teams,the power of connection in
leadership, and the importanceof perseverance and
adaptability.
He also shares how humor andstorytelling can be powerful
tools for building trust andbreaking down barriers—and
addresses the challenges ofstress and digital addiction in
today’s world.
Whether you're a leader,educator, or simply someone
looking to make a greaterimpact, this episode is packed
(01:05):
with insight, inspiration, andpractical wisdom you won’t want
to miss.
I’m Nancy and I have theabsolute pleasure of introducing
today’s host—someone who hasspent his career leading,
inspiring, and developingothers.
He’s a seasoned educationleader, consultant, speaker, and
executive coach, with abackground that spans education,
business, and even the military.
(01:25):
As a former Chief OperationsOfficer of a major school
district, a career and technicaleducation innovator, and now the
creator of Results Matter LeaderDevelopment, he’s been at the
forefront of leadership andinfluence for decades.
But that’s not all—he’s also aJohn Maxwell Certified Executive
Director, a national keynotespeaker, and the driving force
behind this very podcast.
His passion?
Helping YOU lead boldly, learncontinuously, laugh often, and
(01:48):
grow relentlessly.
So, without further ado, let’sdive into today’s episode with
our host—Randy Gooch!
Randy (01:54):
All right, ladies and gentlemen, I'm excited to have
Josh Varner, our guest with ustoday.
Josh, how are you doing
JOSH (01:59):
Thanks for having me on, Randy.
I'm excited to talk to youtoday.
Randy (02:02):
Great.
Let's just dive right in.
I've got a few rapid firequestions.
just so the audience can startgetting a feel for who and how
you communicate, and then we'lldig a little deeper as we go
along.
Josh, give me a one worddescription.
Of your approach to leadership.
And I realize that's hard for aguy who speaks on the stage to
narrow it down to one word, butgive it a shot.
JOSH (02:25):
I think my one word would be connection.
I think you need to build greatrelationships with people in
order to lead them.
Randy (02:30):
That's awesome.
John Maxwell came out with abook a few years ago and it was,
everybody Communicates, but FewConnect, and that's true.
There's a lot of talk.
we get bombarded by media.
Sometimes we're talking and wewonder if we're being effective
and so I think that connectionpiece is real important.
So thanks for that.
Finish this sentence.
Every leader needs to understandtrauma because,
JOSH (02:52):
I'd say because it impacts so many of the people that you
work with every day.
And really everyone's beenimpacted by trauma, but we know,
20, 25% of people aresignificantly impacted by
trauma.
So whether we realize that ornot, it's impacting us, our
ability to perform at the levelwe want to, the quality of our
relationships and our teamsbeing successful.
Randy (03:08):
What's a moment that you might have said, this is why I
do this work?
JOSH (03:15):
Yeah.
I really fell in love with thespeaking that I've been doing
these last three years, and thebest part for me actually isn't
when we talk a lot about servingkids impacted by trauma, but I
love when people come up to meafterwards and they say, this
helped me understand myselfbetter, my family better, et
cetera.
I was working with a schoolleader recently and He said it
transformed his relationshipwith his foster child.
And so to me that's the reallycool stuff when people have a
personal impact in their livesbecause they understand this
(03:35):
work.
Randy (03:37):
Excellent, excellent.
And I'm a practical guy.
I listen to a lot of podcasts.
I listen to speakers and theones that seem to make always
that greatest connection with meare those that I can see a
practical implementation of thebig thinking that was talked
about, how can we make therubber hit the road with that?
I know in our previousconversation you talked a little
bit about humor and keeping someof these heavy subjects light.
(03:58):
So talk to me about somethingsurprisingly funny that might
have happened during one of yourtalks
JOSH (04:04):
Surprisingly funny.
I just love hearing the storiesabout especially the little
kids, all the different wildstuff they do.
And I think sometimes it's soserious in the moment and then
later on when people can stepback away from the emotion,
reflect a lot of the stuff ispretty funny.
people share stories theaudience gets a laugh and, we
realize that we make this stuffserious every day.
It feel serious in the moment,but in the big picture, a lot of
this stuff isn't as life ordeath as we think it is.
Randy (04:27):
I like that sometimes we think we're in a crisis and
sometimes it's not a crisis.
good advice.
If you had the chance to go backand give your younger self some
advice, what might that be?
JOSH (04:39):
I think everything that's come my way has come my way for
a reason.
everything is being presented toyou for your growth.
a lot of times you're not gonnalike things in the moment, but
it's gonna fit into a biggerpicture.
And every relationship is anopportunity to learn, grow,
every experience you're gonnahave in life, and an opportunity
to learn and grow.
now that I'm, a little bit olderand a little wiser, I can
reflect back and say, That wasdivine redirection, but at the
time it felt like rejection.
just to remind myself, even whenthose things are uncomfortable,
(05:00):
even when those things don'twork out the way you want
they're fitting into a biggerplan.
be patient with that.
Randy (05:06):
Awesome.
So I know many of our listenersthey're leaders in education
agencies, institution,businesses, ministries they lead
people and they influenceculture.
Your story connects deeply withthat.
Let's talk about your leadershipjourney.
Take us back to your originalstory.
What life experiences haveshaped your passion for
(05:26):
trauma-informed leadership?
JOSH (05:29):
I went to school for school counseling.
I really wanted to be a highschool counselor and high school
football coach.
That was my dream.
But I fell in love with collegefootball.
I loved the recruiting, thegrind, the competition.
I went on to become a collegefootball coach for about 10
years.
I thought it was gonna be mylife's work.
But then I connected with mywife we got married, started
having kids, and it was just,how the heck am I supposed to do
this profession?
That's a grind, seven days aweek, 12 hour day kind of job?
and be a great dad.
And so I left college coaching.
(05:49):
I took a job in community-basedmental health in Mexico,
Missouri.
And what I found real quicklywhen I did that job was, I had
the master's degree, but reallywhat I learned how to do was
label kids and we medicatedkids.
And what I found was all thesekids I was working with were
significantly impacted trauma.
And but I didn't know how tohelp them.
I saw my first trauma informedspeaker about 10 years ago.
It was very transformational forme.
Shifted my paradigm away fromwhat's wrong with this person,
(06:10):
to what is this personexperienced?
And I'm a lifelong learner, so Iread books and went to
conferences.
the podcast is one of myfavorite ways to learn too.
the more I understood, the moreI was able to help these people
thrive and recover from trauma.
And when you have somethingthat's good, you wanna share it
with other people.
And so I started working in theschool system.
I would talk to foster parents.
I never thought I was gonna be aprofessional speaker.
That was never my dream.
That was a, my, I just wannacoach football.
But.
But you just wanna share stuffthat works and it just grew and
(06:31):
grew, especially post COVID.
It blew up and I've been doingthis full time now for.
Three years I wrote a book onthe topic and you're just trying
to help people really make senseof the people that they're
trying to serve every day.
hopefully, through that processyou're able to understand
yourself better, your familybetter, your community better,
and we can get more supportive.
I think we all wanna helppeople, but we don't always
understand why they'restruggling.
to me this is a great frameworkto understand the suffering
(06:52):
that's around us.
Randy (06:55):
how do you lead when working with trauma impacted
individual or teams?
JOSH (07:02):
Yeah, I think the biggest thing we're trying to get our
team on board with is we have tohave an understanding in the
beginning.
how big is this problem?
We need to understand howprevalent it is, right?
then we need to recognize peoplewhen they're impacted by trauma.
what do they look like?
How do we recognize thatsomebody's in distress?
once we have that framework thenthe tools in our toolbox are, is
we gotta learn how to stay calm.
Because when you interact withsomebody who's dysregulated, and
this could be a customer, thiscould be a student, this could
be a family member.
(07:23):
Your natural response is to getdysregulated too.
when you can learn how to staycalm, that's gonna help regulate
that person.
we're gonna learn how to listenand validate their experience.
That's what's gonna bring thatconnection in.
I'm gonna empathize.
listen to you, validate whatyou're going through, and as a
leader, I need to learn how torefer people to external
supports.
'cause I want to help them intheir own healing journey.
I recognize you're struggling.
I understand why you'restruggling now.
I want to help you in yourjourney and get you referred out
(07:44):
to somebody who understands thisproblem can help you on your
journey.
Randy (07:47):
Gotcha.
So you mentioned first figuringout how do we know how big this
problem is?
And we're talking about trauma.
So are we as a society in anepidemic?
And for some people that don'talways talk in this type of
language, what does that reallyboil down to?
What is trauma?
'Cause for me, I can say somethings are traumatic, but they
may not have impacted me yet.
(08:09):
There are other things that Imight not package in that trauma
box but help us understand that.
JOSH (08:14):
Yeah.
that's a great question.
I define trauma as anything thatoverwhelms your brain's ability
to cope.
Randy, what's traumatic for youwon't be traumatic for somebody
else.
And what's traumatic forsomebody else won't be traumatic
for you.
a lot of times we have thismisconception that it has to be
one of these big events, youdon't get to decide.
I've seen huge events have noimpact on somebody.
And I've seen small events havemassive impacts, and we don't
get to pick what our brainassociates with.
I'll give you an example.
I worked with police officersquite a bit an officer, got shot
(08:36):
in the line of duty.
He got patched up.
He goes, I'm doing really well.
It surprisingly hasn't had thatbig an impact on me.
He goes, but my partner got PTSDfor me getting shot.
He can't do the job anymore.
Can you believe it?
And I'm like, yes.
And we
see this all the time with our soldiers one PTSD one, fine.
We see it with children goingthrough something common like
divorce.
One kid is, yes, twoChristmases.
They're not fighting anymore.
The other kid, my whole world isshattered by that event.
(08:56):
it's very individualized.
a big part of this movement isunderstanding I'm not gonna
judge somebody else's response'cause they didn't have control
over that.
What's gonna traumatize oneperson will not traumatize
another.
The big study that got peopletalking about this, was called
the Adverse Childhood ExperienceStudy.
it was the largest longitudinalstudy in human history.
They looked at over 17,000people.
It was the CDC partnered withKaiser Permanente.
(09:16):
basically what they wanted tofigure out is how traumatized is
the average American.
And what they found was aboutone outta eight.
We're significantly impacted bytrauma.
So that was four or more ofthese.
Things like domestic violencephysical abuse happened to'em as
a child.
And the highest score you canget is 10 four more is what we
consider high risk.
But this very it was privateinsurance in Diego, so it was a
very affluent sample size.
And even within that group, theysaw one outta eight people were
(09:37):
significantly impacted bytrauma.
And so I always say, in aworking class community, blue
collar community, like I live inJefferson City, I think we're
more like one out of five.
And so I think what you realizeis there's a lot more people
that are significantly impactedby trauma and they're way more
at risk for things likesubstance abuse, homelessness,
mental health issues shortenedlife expectancy, et cetera, it's
a really significant.
Part of our population.
the reason why I work withschools, these are the kids that
(09:58):
are typically struggling inschool.
These are the kids thattypically aren't graduating,
they're having a lot ofbehavioral issues, et cetera,
are the kids that aresignificantly impacted by
childhood trauma.
my work is really teaching thehelpers, Hey, how do we
recognize that kid's intostress?
And what are the tools that aregonna help that kid heal and
thrive?
Because the toolbox for that kidimpacted by trauma is not gonna
be the same toolbox as the restof the kids.
And then getting people on boardwith that.
Randy (10:18):
Are these issues that we're talking about, are they
always rooted in childhoodexperience or could a child be
fairly well intact, have greatsupports and then later as an
adult based on experience and.
Problems and events developthese adverse reactions to
trauma and these disabling typebehaviors
JOSH (10:37):
Yeah.
The younger you are, the moreimpactful the trauma is.
That's the best way I candescribe it.
I hear a lot of people say, whathappened when they were two?
They don't remember.
It doesn't matter.
And it's wrong.
Two is more impactful than 12.
12 is more impactful than 22.
you can be traumatized at anypoint in your life, but when
you're a child, it's a lot moreimpactful because your brain is
developing a lot quicker.
Your brain is trying to figureout, am I safe?
Am I loved?
And so when you have thoseevents as a child, you can't
understand them.
(10:57):
You can't conceptualize them aswell as you can as an adult.
So yes, these events can happento us throughout life.
But the most impactful time isactually the third trimester
before that baby's even born.
Whatever's happened to thatmother is being imprinted onto
that child.
a lot of these kids get hurt andthey don't even know what's
happened to them psychologically'cause it happened before.
They don't remember it, buttheir brain remembers, their
body remembers.
it does definitely reappearthroughout life.
And that healing process cancontinue throughout life.
(11:18):
When they hit puberty, forexample, you'll see a lot of
behaviors that maybe we didn'tdeal with before start.
At different phases ofadulthood, different
relationships workrelationships, personal
relationships.
It can manifest in a lot ofdifferent ways.
And so I always encourage peoplewe're all on a lifelong healing
journey.
What I want you to do isrecognize, hey, this is
something I struggle with.
And then get curious and gethelp.
'Cause you can always become amore healed, a better version of
(11:38):
yourself.
Because when you don't know thisstuff, it impacts you in a lot
of different ways and it affectsyour relationship.
ITF affects your work.
It inf affects your ability tomake an impact on other people.
we all have work to do.
Some people got a lot more thanothers but I just encourage
people to do work.
Randy (11:52):
what are some common mistakes that well-meaning
people or well-meaning leadersmake when trying to support
people who've experienced thistrauma?
JOSH (12:00):
Yeah, so some people minimize, so it's not that bad.
At least it's not this I wentthrough worse.
What they're trying to do isminimize somebody's experience
to make themselves feel better.
And it ain't about you, it'sabout them.
And so I see a lot of thatminimization going on.
That's not good.
The idea that we can punish thetrauma outta somebody, that's a
myth that isn't helpful.
for a lot of people who haven'tbeen significantly impacted by
trauma, when they made mistakes,if people gave them punishment,
it.
(12:21):
Was a good guider to tell themnot to do anymore.
That positive, negativereinforcement worked really well
for UNT traumatized brains.
They don't work well for thesetraumatized people.
And so what happens is you'reconstantly giving'em negative
reinforcement.
We're actually reinforcing theirtrauma, and we get stuck in that
negative spiral.
And so that's a big one.
in our culture, we're obsessedwith punishment.
Punishment means You hurt me,I'm gonna hurt you.
Our whole criminal justicesystem's based on punishment and
(12:41):
that's why we have really highrecidivism rates.
It doesn't work.
I'm a big believer indiscipline.
Discipline comes from the rootword disciple, which means to
teach.
And so when I see a poorbehavior, I'm thinking, this is
an opportunity to grow.
People do better when they knowbetter.
How am I gonna help you grow andlearn from this experience?
That's what I'm passionateabout.
And so when I see, a kid, adult,whoever, if they're making
mistakes, Like, how do I helpthem learn and grow through that
experience?
Randy (13:01):
All right.
You've mentioned learning that'sa key part of what I try to
bring out and present to ouraudience in this podcast.
Can you break down somepractical tools, approaches that
leaders and educators and peoplethat are trying to work with
people that have experiencedthis trauma?
That can be implemented prettyeasily, without maybe a degree
in psychology or years and yearsof trauma informed training.
JOSH (13:25):
Yeah.
And so the cool thing about thisis I call'em, therapeutic
moments a term I got from BrucePerry, the brain does not care
who provides these therapeuticmoments.
When we help people feel safeand connected, that's gonna help
'em heal, Social workers arereally important, therapists are
really important, but they don'tget enough time with
individuals.
So we really wanna createsystems where lots of people can
provide these safe and connectedmoments, right?
And so I always say my schoolstaffs all the time, they're
(13:46):
these kids' brains don't care ifthe therapeutic moment comes
from a licensed clinical socialworker or a bus driver.
From a coach or teacher, from acustodian or food service
personnel, the brain doesn'tcare.
They're all worth the same.
So how do we create environmentswhere everybody sees that kid
that's struggling or an adult ina work environment and wraps
them with as much loving safetycare as possible?
that's what actually helps theirbrain heal.
the problem is, most of the timewhen somebody's struggling,
people don't want anything to dowith them.
(14:06):
When people are struggling,they're a pain in the butt.
I don't want any, I don't wannainteract'em.
And if I am interacting with'em,I'm gonna have a lot of negative
interactions with them.
That actually reinforces theirtrauma.
And so we gotta learn is how toyou, that's why understanding
how big the problem is,recognizing when somebody's
dysregulated because theirtrauma.
And then hey, we're gonna listenand validate and help them, fix
what they broke, whether it'srelationally or through that
process.
that's something I do a ton whenI teach parents, a lot of
(14:27):
parents are probably listeningto this.
Podcasts I talk about relax,reconnect, reteach.
Anytime you have to disciplineyour child, go through these
three steps.
And relax means I'm gonna calmmyself down first, and this is
what I have to do as a dad.
I'm really good with otherpeople's kids.
With my own kids, it's more of achallenge.
I have to be calm before Idiscipline my child.
Then I'm gonna calm down my kid.
that could be I, we're nottalking until they're calm, that
could be, we're go for a walk.
That could be we're gonnadistract'em with something and
(14:49):
then reconnect.
I'm gonna listen and validate.
You are really angry, you'rereally frustrated, you were
really disappointed.
I'm not validating theirbehavior.
I'm validating the feelingbehind it.
when they feel heard andvalidated, they feel close to
me.
They need to feel close to me ifI'm gonna change their lives.
So that's really what I'm doingis safety and connection.
You have to have those things inplace before somebody can learn.
I achieve safety, I achieveconnection.
Now I wanna reteach, which is,dude, you gotta fix what you
(15:11):
broke.
So as a parent, it's Hey, youput a hole in the wall.
Now we're gonna have to learnhow to fix holes in the wall.
We're gonna have to cut thisdrywall out.
We're gonna have to patch it,we're gonna have to paint it,
we're gonna have sand, all thesesteps, right?
If it's relational, it's going,man, you hurt your coworker.
You hurt your best friend, youhurt your sister.
How are you gonna fix thatrelationship?
I'm gonna apologize.
'cause in that act of repairingwhat they broke.
That is how they learn andchange.
If I just say, you're removedfrom this family, you have to go
down here, you have to be awayfrom us.
(15:32):
that doesn't create change.
I want to create change.
And that reteach, thatrestorative practice actually
teaches them.
So that we don't get stuck inthese same behavioral cycles,
and that's why anybody inmanagement will tell you that's
the problem.
Anybody in education, anyparent, that's where we get
frustrated when we see the samebehavior over and over again.
If you follow that three stepprocess, you're gonna break
those cycles and it takes moretime on the front end, but it
takes way less time with seeingthe same behavior over and over
(15:53):
again.
Randy (15:54):
Gotcha.
Gimme those three points again.
JOSH (15:56):
Relax, reconnect, reteach.
people learn in threes.
That's why that was intentional.
you and them have to be relaxed.
Now I have to connect with them.
Now the reteach is, we're gonnafix what we broke.
Randy (16:06):
awesome.
It takes me a couple times,We're gonna pass along to the
audience that way.
you've alluded to the brain,what's happening in the brain
during trauma, because I knowthat what you're talking about
is repairing that brain let's,dig a little deeper.
What's happening in that brainwhen people are traumatized, I
don't think everybody knows thatI don't think we even think
about those things that arehappening to us that we don't
(16:28):
even really know that arehappening.
And there was a big term a fewyears ago in education,
brain-based learning looking atwhat is happening in that brain
for learning to be optimized.
But tell us about the brain andtrauma and how that goes hand in
hand.
JOSH (16:43):
So I feel like we have to take.
Neuroscience and we have to makeit really simple.
So there's people like BrucePerry, Peter Levine Dr.
Godber mate, like people thatare amazing at this work.
what I try to do is take alltheir awesome work and make it
so simple that I can teach it toa low functioning parent a bus
driver a teacher or a middleschool kid, I always say trauma
is a simple understandingtrauma.
Simple is understanding front ofthe brain, back of the brain.
Front of the brain, back of thebrain.
It's that easy.
(17:03):
We're not even gonna talk brainparts.
We're gonna keep it reallysimple.
So the front of the brain iscool.
This is where me and you areboth right now.
Whenever you feel safe andconnected, you can access the
front of your brain.
So we can learn, we can makedecisions, we can grow, we can
do complicated thinking.
think about what humanity's beenable to accomplish.
bridges, roads, architecture,engineering.
It's incredible what we've beenable to accomplish as a species.
'cause we have a really robustfront of the brain.
(17:24):
But we also have the back of thebrain.
the back of the brain is laserfast, so you have no control
over it, but it's instantaneousand automatic.
So you're doing digestion rightnow.
You're digesting breakfast.
You're not thinking about that.
The back of the brain does itautomatically breathing heart
rate pressure.
Okay, so now here's theinteresting thing, Randy, you're
in your studio.
If a bear came in and attackedyou, do you want to be in the
front of the brain or the backof the brain?
'Cause you can imagine if yourancestors 25,000 years ago were
(17:46):
drawn on the cave walls and theSaber two tiger came wandering
in your cave and you stayed inthe front of the brain, you'd be
like, what doing here?
Why does the Saber two Tigerhave big teeth?
Why is he grounding up my kids?
If our brains worked that way,we all would've got Scooby
Snacked in the cave.
We have this really interestingthing in the middle of our brain
called the amygdala, So justthink smoke detector.
You'll have a smoke detector inyour brain, and whenever you're
in a life or death situation,that smoke detector goes off.
(18:08):
It shuts off all that slow,complex brain activity and it
transfers all to the back of thebrain with instantaneous
automatic.
So if you're getting attacked bya bear, your smoke detector's
going off the front of thebrain's going offline.
Now the back of the brain'skicking in and the back of the
brain can only do three things.
Fight, flight or freeze.
I always joke if I'm in thestudio with you, Randy, I'm
running'cause that's gonna giveme the best chance of survival.
And what your brain wants to dois run if you can run, if you
(18:30):
can't run, it wants you tofight.
If you can't fight your brainwants to freeze.
So Randy will probably getfreeze, I'll get flight.
And that gives each one of usthe best chance to survival.
And I know we all like to thinkwe're gonna be heroes in these
moments, but realistically, yourbrain picks your survival most
of the time.
and we judge people and we saythey should have done that.
you don't have control most ofthe time.
Okay?
But here's the interesting part.
Remember every single traumaticevent of your life forever.
(18:53):
Not five years, not 15 forever.
But it doesn't do it throughmemories, it does it through
your senses.
We'll just taste, touch, smellhere, see?
And if I get the same stimuli,I'm gonna get the same back of
the brain that kept me alivelast time.
if you smell a bear a year fromnow, you're gonna go, I gotta
run.
If you hear a bear growl, Igotta run.
Randy (19:09):
Josh, it's always easy to think of trauma informed care as
something that's heavy because alot of times it is, particularly
when we start thinking about theevents that have traumatized
people.
And it is serious work becausefor some it ends up being life
changing and disabling.
But I think you have a knackfor, and one of the reasons I
think you're having so muchsuccess in the world of speaking
(19:32):
about this you've been able tokeep it light.
So how are you blending that asa communicator between the heavy
subject and yet keeping it lightenough that.
People don't walk away soburdened that they're
traumatized and paralyzed.
JOSH (19:47):
Yeah.
Here's the deal.
we know that pretty mucheverybody's been impacted by
trauma.
Some people a lot more thanothers and most of my audience
people are in the helpingprofess.
So the bottom line is if Itrigger them by talking about
their own trauma, they're notgonna learn from me.
I have to be really intentional.
it's really not how you, theinformation that you present to
(20:07):
the audience is how you present.
Humor and storytelling,especially if I'm gonna go into
something that's a littleheavier of a topic, I always
have jokes built into that partbecause I know that like the
jokes will regulate the audienceI use a lot of storytelling
because people remember stories,and so the more I can engage
them with storytelling, the themore they're gonna remember this
stuff long term.
And so whatever concept I'mtrying to teach, I try to
(20:28):
integrate a story into thatconcept so that they're gonna
remember it.
Randy (20:34):
Very good.
there's probably a millionreasons that you're connecting
with audiences and it is veryimportant.
you mentioned stories, tell alittle bit more about why you're
trying to connect with stories.
I believe it as well.
share how you craft a story toconnect with something that's
traumatic or heavy.
JOSH (20:53):
I tell you, you get better at this the more reps you get.
when I first started speaking, Idon't think.
I was nearly as impactful as I'mtoday.
I've been doing this about fiveyears.
I've been doing it full-time forabout three years, I would just
tell a story and see theaudience react to it, or people
would come up to you afterwardsand that was what resonated.
Or you'd get your feedback andthey would talk about that
story.
And so you're like, a lot oftimes you think a story's gonna
be pretty good and it's not.
And it is the same thing withhumor.
All my jokes were one-offs thatI told.
(21:15):
And then the audience respondedto'em, my brain tickles and
goes, Ooh, that was pretty good.
And I would say the thing withspeaking is I get now why
comedians have to go to thesmall improv mics and try out
their material.
'cause there's a lot of times Ithink this story is gold.
This joke is gold and it bombs.
Most of my good stuff wasaccidental, to be honest with
you.
if somebody's thinking about howdo I create a message, I try to
create a story in with each oneof those, and I'm getting better
at that.
(21:35):
I've been doing it longer nowbut you don't really know what's
gonna land and not land untilyou get out there and do it.
And I just encourage people to,have that courage and then get
better each time you do it.
Randy (21:43):
Great advice.
Let's talk a little bit aboutsome personal growth and what
you want from others.
How has your work withTrauma-informed care changed you
personally over the years?
JOSH (21:55):
Yeah, I think we're all in our healing journey, and it's
not a judgmental thing.
we all have stuff.
We all wanna grow.
I tell myself this a lot,whatever I don't like in others
is what I don't like in myself.
Whatever situations dysregulateme, that's something unhealed
from my past.
most of us do this, and this iswhat I used to do.
If there's a dark corner, Iwanna run away from it.
I never wanna look in there, Inever wanna open that box again.
(22:16):
I want to be oblivious to it.
now I run to those dark corners.
I get curious why I get so upsetin this situation?
Why do I shut down on thissituation?
Why do I get, and then I try toexamine that.
If you can start understandingwhere it came from and then it's
like, how do I get regulated inthat situation?
So what are the tools I can putin my toolbox?
I can go for a walk, I can dosome exercise.
Some people it's mindfulness.
My wife likes doing stainedglass coloring.
(22:38):
what you wanna do is train yourbrain to be calm in that
situation.
And I'll give you the personalexample.
I was driving.
I drive a lot for work.
If somebody does somethingdangerous, that's a trigger for
me.
I get upset and so I'll say abad word.
And my wife was like, what's upwith that?
Why?
Why do you get so upset?
you get defensive.
it's not me, it's them.
They're doing the unsafe thing.
I'm justified in my reaction.
She goes, no, let's get care.
(22:58):
Like you get really upset.
Like you're normally not likethat.
That's not the best version ofyou.
Why do you get, and so what Irealized is.
Anger is my protector for fear.
when somebody does somethingunsafe, it's actually fear.
I don't feel safe in thatsituation.
But anger is my bodyguard forfear.
And so what I do now is Irecognize that anger coming out
and I just tell myself, you'resafe.
(23:18):
You're safe.
You're safe.
And I have this new little hackI do'cause I'm on I 70 all the
time.
people do dumb stuff on thathighway every day.
And so you get a lot ofpractice.
when I drive past that personthat cut me off, I just give'em
a thumbs down now.
I don't flip'em off.
just thumbs down.
it takes all that negativeenergy out of it.
They laugh a lot of times orthey give me a, I'm sorry and
I'm not so angry.
and the more I can do that, themore I'm not gonna be as
(23:39):
triggered the next time ithappens.
And so that's just an example ofme, Hey, I'm gonna get curious.
This is why it does it, thatanger's trying to protect me,
tell myself I'm safe, and thenhave some tools in my toolbox to
get a different outcome.
Randy (23:50):
I hate to admit it, but you've convicted me a little bit
on the thumbs down technique.
I'm gonna probably have toimplement that because yeah, I
too drive I 70 a lot and yes,there's a lot of everybody's on
the phone.
Oh Yeah.
A lot to be angry about outthere sometimes.
But alright, thanks for sharingit.
What do you want every audiencemember that you talk with in a
speech or a podcast listener towalk away believing about
(24:12):
themselves?
JOSH (24:13):
Yeah, I just think every person has value.
So I want you to know yourvalue.
I want you to see your value.
We all have a purpose, so we'reall here to do something.
the more you can see your ownvalue, the more you can
understand what you're here todo who you're here to help, who
you're here to impact.
And you are worth taking thetime to be the best version of
yourself.
And so the more you can heal,the more work you can do on
yourself, the bigger the impactyou're gonna have, the more
you're gonna be able to live outyour purpose.
(24:33):
I just want people to hear thatyou have value.
We all have work to do.
unfortunately, a lot of times weinternalize this stuff, right?
we have negative thoughts aboutourselves that we're, we're
this, we're that.
I want people to understand thatthere's roots and all of those
unhealthy things, but you'reworth the work to heal and
you're gonna make a biggerimpact the more work you do.
Randy (24:50):
So what's next for you?
What's a big adventure?
What's a big objective or a goalthat you have in mind?
JOSH (24:57):
I'm a big believer that my audience is always right, and if
they're telling me we have aproblem, then I need to work
hard to solve that.
when I started talking abouttrauma.
I was excited that so manypeople wanted to hear the
message, but people would say,Our teachers are stressed.
Our healthcare workers arestressed.
We're struggling with stress,especially post pandemic.
so my second talk was teachingpeople how to understand what's
going on in their bodies ofstress and how to complete the
stress cycle.
lately, the last year and ahalf, everybody's telling me.
(25:19):
we are struggling with thesecell phones, these smartphones,
these youth mental health.
We're addicted to our phones.
What do we do?
so I rolled out a new talkcalled Digital Detox.
I got to share it.
the response was awesome.
I'm excited about talking abouthow smartphones are impacting
our mental health.
And then, but more importantly,what do we do about it?
And so what can I do about, as aparent, I'm a first generation
parent where my kid has accessto technology.
And so it was so much fun for meto learn about what I can do as
(25:41):
a parent, what can we do as asociety about this problem?
And most importantly, what canwe do individually?
the average person spends 48hours a week staring at their
phone.
And so you can imagine how muchof your life you're giving up.
For a lot of us, it's 20, 30years of our life staring at
that phone.
I know we're not throwing thephones away.
I know they're not goinganywhere, but can you recapture
some of that time and put ittowards things that matter to
you?
And maybe for you it's movement,maybe it's family time,
(26:02):
connection time, whatever itmight be.
I want to help people get theirlife back because these phones
have taken a lot away from us,and I don't think a lot of
people realize it.
Randy (26:09):
Yeah.
And it's interesting times herein the last couple of days
during the wrapping up of theMissouri legislative season they
just passed a ban for cellphones in school being in
retiring from the schoolbusiness.
I know we grappled with that foryears.
I think generally speaking fromthe inside education.
Arena, it'll be viewed assomewhat positive because now we
(26:30):
have somebody else helping uswith this, now it's not just an
individual teacher oradministrator being a bad
person.
I do think it's importantbecause I think it's a signal
that our society, our governmentour leaders are starting to
figure out too how, and.
How much these devices are trulyimpacting our learning, our
behavior in every form of ourlife.
(26:51):
And when you put it in thatconcept of the number of years
in a lifetime, we're gonna spendstaring at a screen.
That, that's amazing.
In my personal opinion, probablynot a good, amazing, I like your
message about what we can add toour life in place of that?
And there's so many positivethings.
So I know you you have a bookout, is that correct?
JOSH (27:10):
I do.
Yeah.
You can get on amazon.com.
I know you all have access tothat.
So throw my book in there.
Be their Hero and Educator'sGuide to Trauma-Informed Care.
I wrote it as a book study, soif you wanna learn more and
bring somebody else along everychapter is a reflection
question.
it's a good way to learn as agroup.
a lot of the organizations Iwork with, that's how they
continue that education after Ileave.
And I'm gotten good goodresponse from it.
I'm proud of it.
Randy (27:29):
Excellent.
if you've heard something onthis podcast today that Josh has
been sharing with us go to thatbook.
You can get it a little bitdeeper.
Also, Josh, if somebody'shearing you today and wants to
bring you in for your speakingengagement for a group or an
audience how would they getahold of you?
JOSH (27:45):
you can email me josh varner consulting@gmail.com.
That's all one word, Josh varnerwith a v, not a b
consulting@gmail.com.
You could all call me on thephone,(319) 899-9843.
Love to hear from you.
I'd love to connect with you.
I'm passionate about sharingthis message.
I originally started workingwith educators, but So many
different audience groups havesaid, this is something that our
group is struggling with too,whether it's healthcare workers
(28:05):
I started working with funeralhome groups a whole bunch of
different groups that I,originally didn't think I would
be working with.
But what you find is no matterwhat the organization is, a lot
of folks are struggling withtheir mental health right now.
And if you can provide engagingeasy to implement solutions, you
can provide a lot of value tothose organizations.
Randy (28:20):
Josh, I want to thank you for spending time with us today
and the great information andinsight that you've given us
about trauma, how that affectsour behaviors and a little bit
about how to communicate better.
Thank you for being a leader inthis field and hope to have you
back on in a future episode.
JOSH (28:37):
That'd be wonderful.
Randy, I appreciate theopportunity, big fan of the
podcast, and so excited.
I gotta be a part of it andwould love to connect with you
again in the future.
Nancy (28:44):
"Thanks for joining us on Lead Learn Laugh Grow.
If you enjoyed today's episode,be sure to FOLLOW wherever you
get your podcasts and share itwith a friend who's passionate
about growth.
Connect with Randy on LinkedInor visit RMLeadership.com to
continue your leadershipjourney.
Until next time, keep growing!"
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