March 19, 2025 • 35 mins
When successful entrepreneurs and creatives face crucibles of transformation, what emerges on the other side? In this vulnerable conversation with Bible Project founders Tim Mackie and John Collins, we journey into the heart of what it means to surrender identity and embrace divine redirection.
John Collins shares the wrenching year-long process of selling his business – a decision that threatened not just his financial security but his very sense of self. "What made it so hard was that my identity of being a successful creative felt like failure to walk away," he reveals. Through spiraling fears and depression, John encountered a pivotal moment when God asked him, "Won't I still be enough?" This question cut through layers of fear, freeing him to step into an unknown future that would eventually birth the Bible Project.
Meanwhile, Tim Mackie was undergoing his own vocational crucible. Despite his scholarly nature and introverted personality, he had pursued urban pastoral ministry until panic attacks signaled a profound misalignment. "My crucible was giving up being the cool hip urban pastor guy and recognizing that's just not who I'm made to be," Tim explains. His journey reveals the courage required to release cultural expectations and embrace authentic calling.
What makes this episode particularly powerful is the reflection on divine timing in our suffering. Tim draws from the seven-day creation narrative to illustrate how all non-divine beings must journey through cycles of light and darkness toward completion. "The biblical story tells us that our cycles of going through the night are going somewhere," he observes, offering hope that our crucibles serve an essential purpose in character formation.
Whether you're currently facing your own crucible or helping others through theirs, this conversation offers profound insights on surrender, authentic leadership, and the redemptive purpose behind our most challenging seasons.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:03):
This is the Leaders on Fire podcast.
On this show, we'll be invitingguests in to talk about
crucible moments in their livesand unpack how it developed
character and perseverance andhow they emerged as leaders on
fire.
We hope that this podcast is anencouragement and an
inspiration to you.
This episode is part two of ourpodcast with John and Tim, the
(00:27):
founders of the Bible Project.
If you didn't get a chance tolisten to episode one, please go
and do so.
It is awesome.
Today we're going to dig in alittle bit deeper with them and
we're going to enter thecrucible and we're going to hear
from them crucible moments intheir life that shape their
character and their leadership.
So let's welcome them back tothe show.
Tim and John, welcome back.
(00:52):
Glad to have you again, Hello.
Speaker 2 (00:56):
Yeah, Hi Drew.
Speaker 1 (00:57):
Last episode we dug into this idea of the crucible
and we unpacked what that lookslike scripturally and we had
some good discussions aroundthat, and so it really sets us
up for this next phase of thepodcast, which is where we
actually enter into the crucible.
We're going to bring thoseexperiences, those emotions,
those feelings back onto thetable and kind of process those.
(01:19):
And so I'd like to ask you guys, you know, to get vulnerable
and maybe share about a cruciblemoment or season in your life.
Maybe it's related to the Bibleproject, maybe it's not, but
just wanna be able to unpackthat.
And again, the point of this isto encourage our listeners that
everyone's gonna go throughcrucibles and I say that plural.
(01:40):
Everyone's gonna go throughthem varying degrees and for
varying purposes.
And so the idea is that you knowsharing your story really as a
way to encourage other peoplewho may be in a crucible now or
have been through some in thepast, or for those who come to
one in the future.
They can maybe reflect back onyour words and maybe what your
(02:02):
perspective was, and that mighteven be the rawness of what you
felt, like this really stinks or.
Lord, get me out of this or I'mnot down with this test.
Whatever it may be, there's therealness factor of it.
And we see, King David boy, hesure expressed the realness of
(02:25):
these things in his writings,the very realness, very raw
feelings of the crucible moments, right, but then he also
rejoiced on the other end ofthose oftentimes.
And so, anyways, just to setthat up, I want to turn that
over to you guys and say, hey,what would you like to share
about crucible moments in yourown lives, about crucible
(02:45):
moments in your own lives,reflecting on that question and
thinking about Bible Project andthe beginnings of Bible Project
.
Speaker 3 (02:53):
A really hard but important time in my life was
selling the business that I wasin.
It was actually two businessesOne I just kind of let go and
one I sold.
And particularly the one that Isold was really connected to
(03:16):
this for me, like the sense ofwho I was as a creative.
It gave me identity and it wasalso connected to some really
meaningful relationships, peopleI didn't want to let down.
But God was making it reallyclear to me that my time in the
(03:42):
business was coming to an endand that I wanted to try to
figure out how to juggle stillowning the business but not
really participating in thebusiness.
And God kind of gave me thisconviction that he wanted me to
be kind of single-minded andfocused on just one thing, and I
(04:02):
think it was maybe some gracein my life, like I'm not good at
juggling too many things andbut what?
What made it so hard was thatmy not just the relationships,
but really my identity of ofbeing a successful creative,
(04:25):
being able to do something thatcreates value and it felt kind
of like failure to walk away,and also it made me have to come
to terms with some prioritiesin my life that weren't being
(04:50):
consistent.
Like I really wanted to value akind of workplace culture that
celebrated creativity and hadspace and time for really good
work, but that wasn't reallypresent in the business.
I wanted to have a kind ofbusiness where you had a pace
that was healthy for family life, and I was really a workaholic
(05:16):
in the business, and so it was alot of stepping away from
frameworks that were unhealthybut I felt like were bringing
success or at least just kind ofcontinue to be alluring.
So just all of those things.
You got relationships that aremeaningful, you got identity,
you've got just these habitsthat you're stuck in, and to
(05:37):
just have to make this call oflike I'm just going to just pull
the bandaid off and just bedone, I don't know what that
means for my future.
I don't know what that meansfinancially.
All the things was reallyreally hard.
It was a year-long process, withsome real moments of angst and
(05:59):
depression and frustrationComing out of it, though it gave
me a vision for what kind ofcompany do I want to be a part
of?
What kind of culture do we wantto create here?
What kind of leader do I needto be?
I realized that I hadsubjugated a lot of my own
(06:22):
leadership in the company, thatby the time certain things
started mattering to me, Ididn't have the authority in the
organization to really makechanges I wanted to make.
So what does it mean to be aleader and to actually just own
authority?
I have a relationship withauthority.
(06:43):
That's kind of difficult.
I don't like to be the guy totell people what to do, but if
you believe in something and youwant to create something that
you can believe in, then youkind of have to step into those
shoes.
So, coming to the Bible Projectand then us being able to just
really begin to dream like, yeah, what kind of culture do we
(07:03):
want here?
What's our values?
What's our pace?
What's our pace?
What are we building?
We got to really, I think,because I went through all that
in such an intense way.
We got to be a lot more bold, Ithink, and a lot more creative
in setting.
Some of the things that I'vecontinued to shape about project
is today.
Speaker 1 (07:24):
So you said it was about a year long process and
you had a lot of differentemotions in there.
You said there was pressures,there was depression, you know,
angst.
How did you cope?
Like did you have a vision ofGod calling you to something?
So did that keep you going?
Because oftentimes if there's acall to something else that you
know you're going, it can helpyou get through it, I guess
(07:48):
better I don't know if that'sthe right word or persevere.
So was it a vision that got youthrough that Okay, god's taking
me here or was it an unknown?
Like I'm stepping into this andthere's all these unknowns?
How did you process?
What was your relationship likewith Jesus during that time and
your faith and your trust?
Talk a little bit more aboutthat.
Speaker 3 (08:09):
Well, I mean, we had started Bible Project but it was
still just kind of a volunteeron the side.
Who knows what this will become.
I had started to scheme up whatsome other consultancy business
I could start was.
I started to scheme up whatsome other consultancy business
I could start was, but neitherof those felt like a thing that
(08:49):
gave me enough vision and focusto take away all the angst.
And there was kind of moneythat was coming in and then it
kind of created this culture ofthe money as a scorecard and the
money as a sign of God'sblessing in your life.
(09:18):
And in reality, walking awayfrom the business felt like the
foolish thing to do money-wiseand it created a lot of angst
for me because I felt like maybethat was my one time as a
creative to really strike gold.
The business was working right,and if I step away from it,
what if it doesn't happen again?
And what if I can't find a jobthat I enjoy?
(09:39):
And what if I can't find a jobat all?
What if I can't afford thehouse I'm living in anymore?
And all these things startedand I started to spiral and all
around just kind of the scarcity, like there might not be enough
.
And it was at that moment, kindof at the depths of that
spiraling, where God met me,where God met me and was, you
(10:05):
know, however this works, havinga conversation with God, where
I, you know, hearing God be like, what are you afraid of?
What are you really afraid of?
And me trying to explain to Godlike, well, I'm afraid that I'm
going to do a job that I hatedoing, Like that's going to be a
miserable life.
In fact, I'm going to do a jobthat I hate doing.
That's going to be a miserablelife.
(10:26):
In fact, I'm actually reallyafraid of just not being able to
provide for my family and whatI mean.
Like these are my fears.
And I just remember hearing fromGod like, won't I still be
enough?
And can you still have a goodlife, even if you had a job you
(10:50):
didn't like, even if your familyhad to move in with someone
else?
You know like, can you stilllike be happy?
And I was like, oh yeah,actually I could.
I still have my family, I stilllike, you know, like all the
things that matter, like what?
Why was I putting so much intothis?
Like into income and to me,being able to pursue my creative
(11:13):
passions, Like why was thatdriving me so much?
And just with like this onequestion, I feel like God just
kind of ripped that from me andit was at the right time because
, like I was kind of ready toget rid of it because it was
creating so much angst for meand so at that moment I just
kind of felt free from it and weweren't done yet with trying to
figure out how I was going toexit.
But that moment there was justa sense of of not worrying
(11:36):
anymore, like I'll get what Iget, we'll move on whatever the
next season is.
Like I don't need, I don't needto ultimately worry about that.
Like God is enough and I haveenough.
Speaker 1 (11:48):
And it's interesting, you know, when you think about,
you know, the fire melting awaythe impurities.
It's like we tend to think, andwe desire to be able to just be
able to do that on our own orthrough our own strength and our
own will, that we can getbetter and we can be refined if
(12:09):
we study enough and do enough.
But it sounds to me, like John,you were in a place in life
where this stuff needed shed andit needed melted away, it away,
and it could have only happenedthrough this type of calling
from God, calling you out ofthat business, to get rid of it
(12:31):
and to move on Through thatprocess.
That year process sounds likeit was.
You know, you emerged as whatwe'd say as a leader on fire and
you probably wouldn't havechosen to go through that.
You couldn't haveself-inflicted angst or
self-inflicted depression orwhatever these things are.
God had to lead you throughthat and so, yes, it was for the
(12:52):
purpose of the future, for sure, like what you and Tim have
launched, but to me it soundslike it also was necessary for
some just character refinementto actually prepare you for what
was next.
Does that resonate with you?
Speaker 3 (13:05):
Yeah, absolutely, it's good to reflect on that
through that lens.
It's kind of easy to just moveon and you know it was kind of
quickly after that I mean withinthe next 12 months or so Bible
Project really kicked into gear,so I didn't have to kind of sit
(13:29):
in this wondering what's goingon for very long.
But yeah, you're right, like Ithink, the way I've decided to
show up here at Bible Project,the way we want to build things
here, a lot of that was informedand I think I still would have
had the same intuitions, but Idon't think I would have the
(13:50):
same courage to really lean intothem if I hadn't had those
experiences.
Speaker 1 (13:58):
Tim, what's on your mind?
You got anything you want toshare?
Speaker 2 (14:03):
Yeah, I do.
But also I'm just reflecting onyour journey, john.
I just I remember I rememberall of that.
Mostly it involves us takingwalks and having lunch and like
talking about as you were goingthrough.
All of that that was, uh yeah,that was an intense season for
(14:25):
you.
I think.
What's interesting, I also havememories of that season because
I was going through a relatedkind of journey in terms of
vocational identity thatactually, as I reflect back and
hear you talk about it, I thinkwas a little less intense but
(14:47):
was significant for me.
Actually, as I reflect back andhear you talk about it, I think
it was a little less intensebut it was significant for me
nonetheless.
And I think it was around.
(15:08):
I never had clarity about whereI was supposed to do my thing,
so I came to faith through theskateboard outreach ministry and
so just the creativity of alocal church and some spirit-led
leaders that was my entry intoall the good things in my life
of the journey of followingJesus.
So I've always had a realheartbeat and commitment to just
(15:29):
the life of the local church ina place connecting to the
people where they live.
But as I went through myeducation, I always ended up
being more nerdy and wanting topursue learning and my I don't
know things I was curious aboutmore than any of my friends who
(15:52):
were going into pastoralministry, and so I loved
learning Greek and Hebrew and Iended up creating like personal
reading groups with all myprofessors because I just
couldn't learn enough and theywould end up asking me to teach
classes for them when they hadto go out of town or something,
(16:13):
and so I just loved it and sothat kind of put me on this path
.
Well, I guess I would love togo to graduate school and go do
a PhD and I guess go be aprofessor, because that's what
you do.
If you learn you want to committo that kind of self-inflicted
suffering, but I loved it.
(16:33):
So I think it was just neverclear to me.
But then when I went to graduateschool and I began doing like
teacher's aid and teachingclasses in a university setting,
it was really dissatisfyingbecause none of the students in
the class like hardly any ofthem cared to be there.
They were fulfilling arequirement and so I ended up
(16:56):
going back into the local churchas I was finishing my PhD and
really loved it at the church wewere at in Wisconsin, but I had
this thing about the urbansetting and my skate church
roots and wanting to come backto Portland and so I ended up
coming on to the pastoral team.
We're just the second pastor ata brand new church not very far
(17:21):
from where we are right now andit was an amazing season.
It was so rich and it was asmall pastoral team and just
lots of man 20 to 40-somethingsin urban Portland.
It's the Wild West out here andso some parts of it I loved,
(17:46):
but I think other parts of it inmy education and my real
introverted nature were reallybeing neglected in that season.
So there's a high demand, highextroverted season in my life
and then over the years it beganto catch up with me living out
(18:07):
of sync with some of my own kindof innate wiring and
personality structure, and so Iremember a number of years in I
was doing a wedding and Iexperienced what I recognized
the day after as a panic attackand I could hardly go out and do
(18:28):
this wedding, like I was seeingspots and my heart was beating
crazy and I was like what isgoing on?
And I think I was just soregularly putting myself in
these public environments whereI was like the one in charge of
bringing leadership to the roomor to this group or this problem
or this crisis, and I juststarted to want to retreat all
(18:49):
the time to just go be by myselfwith a stack of books.
And so the bio project wasGod's mercy in providing me an
environment where I could bringcreativity and maybe kind of a
non-traditional way ofexpressing biblical scholarship
(19:13):
in a way that I can teach, butalso in a way that's allowed me
to really keep my relationalenvironment pretty small and
work with a small circle ofpeople and just work with that
group of people for long periodsof time, just on a handful of
(19:34):
projects, and I get to read alot, which is really great.
So I think what I'm talkingabout is a vocational
discernment journey, and I don'tthink I really knew how much
wisdom there is in payingattention to who God's made you
to be, and I fully recognize I'min a very privileged time and
(19:58):
place in history that I couldfind a vocational slot that
aligns with my temperament andmy personality and so on,
because many people you justdon't have those options, and so
that itself is a crucible, youknow, but my crucible was kind
of giving up being the cool hipurban pastor guy and just
(20:20):
recognizing that that is justnot who I'm made to be and I can
be okay with that, and lettinggo of a vision of myself that
that's how I'm going to fulfillwhat God's asked me to do with
my life.
So while there was some angstand stress involved in it, it
(20:42):
was less intense in many waysthan John's journey.
It was happening at the sametime as John was going through
all of that, and so that becamealso a gift for us to be able to
depart from the things we weredoing and there was a kind of
surrender on both our parts thatwe were undergoing with our
sense of identity and thenexperiencing God's gift to us in
(21:05):
this project of getting to dothe things that actually we were
made to do or wanted to do, butto do it in a way that feels
like we're like a redeemedversion of it, and not that it's
been perfect and not that therehaven't been challenges there
have been but my experience ofit has been just a lot of grace
(21:29):
and God's generosity for goingthrough that season.
That was my version of adifficult season.
At least my body thought it wasdifficult, it freaked out.
That matters yeah.
Speaker 3 (21:42):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (21:44):
So maybe it's about sometimes we can have instilled
in us visions of who we are andwhat we're supposed to be doing
that truly didn't come from ajourney of me and God.
It comes from culturalexpectations, social expectation
, and this is not like theDisney message of be your
(22:06):
authentic self, necessarily, butthere is something about
discovering the unique vocationthat God has for each of us, and
that can be a difficult road toshed off versions of myself
that I thought I am or want tobe that actually is not what God
has for me.
Speaker 1 (22:22):
Hmm, yeah, no, I appreciate you sharing that.
I have a similar journey of youknow no-transcript things I
(22:53):
love now, but there's a piece ofthis, okay, that I want you
guys to comment on before weclose out.
No matter how bad, I prayed andactually wanted that literally
for the last, actually, when Godcalled us to go to Papua New
Guinea, we were missionariesthere for three years, and when
he called us back into themarketplace to do missions in
(23:16):
the marketplace in 2013, I wasdisappointed that I was going
back into the business world,because I'd already gone through
that crucible of giving up allof that to go be a missionary
overseas in the jungle, and so Ifully expected to stay kind of
in the ministry lane, and sowhen he called me back into the
marketplace to do missions, Imean I accepted the call and
(23:38):
went for it, but I still steppedback into that same kind of
operational grind for another 10years and while trying to live
out a missional leadership.
So but the thing all duringthat time of that 10 years or so
, that I was back in thebusiness, praying for, looking
for any and every opportunity tokind of escape that so I could
(23:59):
go be me.
There's this element of timethat is so necessary and no
matter how bad I wanted to getout of the crucible or that time
of waiting, I was just simplynot prepared.
Yet there is more to the storythat God was writing, that I
needed to stay in that season oflife longer To really get to
(24:21):
where I am at 44, you might sayin my authentic self, just being
me, and in my vocation.
You might say in my authenticself, just being me, and in my
vocation.
So speak a little bit abouttime because, john, I'm sure,
like you didn't want to take ayear probably, and maybe even as
the Bible projects launched,maybe there's things that have
just taken longer.
Or through your journey, tim,of those different things you
(24:42):
were going through, you know,there's seasons of time that are
necessary for preparation thatwe would rather not elect.
I'd rather just hurry up andget there, and I would have
rather been here 10 years ago,but I wasn't ready or nor would
I have been effective.
I wasn't in.
We're seasoned enough where Godneeded me.
So kind of speak into that alittle bit.
(25:02):
What are your thoughts aroundthat?
Speaker 3 (25:07):
little bit.
What are your thoughts aroundthat?
Oh, wow, you know, I just feelreally fortunate, like my I mean
, just that experience with withbusiness, like it was hard, and
everyone's vision of hard isdifferent, but, and yeah, there
was a year of just like flux andthe whole business, that whole
journey through that, thatbusiness, which was like a four
(25:28):
or five year journey, that neverfelt comfortable, um, but
there's gonna be people who yourwhole life feels that way, um,
and I mean, like you said, drewuh, in the last episode, your
crucible might not end until theheavens and earth unite, and so
(25:53):
I'm wary of trying to say muchabout timing, because I just
feel like I've been given manymercies in my life.
I've saved many mercies, givenmany mercies in my life.
I haven't really had toprobably endure certain things
(26:13):
to get a clear perspective onthat, with the kind of things
that people really struggle withthat cause some real, real pain
and hurt, not to minimize whatI've gone through, but I can
(26:35):
just imagine how much deeperthese crucibles can go for
people.
All to say, though, I believein God's patience and I believe
in his mercy and that foreveryone's stories can be a
(26:57):
little different, and I'm notsure what that means in any
particular situation.
Speaker 1 (27:02):
Yeah, that's a good reflection.
Yeah, that's a good reflection.
You know, and truly, there aresome crucibles that are 100%
environmentally placed on us,meaning if there's an infliction
of some sort, we don't have achoice.
Like myself, john Tim, thecrucibles we were in, yes, we
(27:26):
were following God, but we had achoice also, right, I mean, we
also had a choice and we hadsome role to play in that there
are some crucibles where, let'sjust say, if you've gotten a
disease or you've gotten asickness, that you can't control
that at all.
And so this idea of time, andthe reason why I brought it up,
(27:46):
is because for people who are ina crucible like you, can get
really anxious about time, likeit should be faster or I
shouldn't go through it.
And so, you know, the point isthat the illustration that I
gave with how long I was insomething you know, compared to
a year or compared to otherjourneys, is that you know their
time is relevant to only God'sperspective and the work he's
(28:13):
doing.
And there are some things wejust simply don't know the
answer to and can figure out.
And so, you know, the wholepoint is like how do we, you
know, dig deep and trust infaith, the work that's being
done, looking to the scriptures,knowing that, through these
tests and through these trials,and through, sometimes, the
(28:35):
thorn that's never removed, eventhough we've pleaded and prayed
, this element of time is reallyhis and his alone.
So, tim, what are your thoughts?
Speaker 2 (28:51):
This whole time of my mind was following a thread
about the seven-day creationnarrative, of course, and the
concept of time in that story iskind of setting the framework
for the biblical story.
And then also to two passagesthat talk about in Paul and
(29:11):
Romans 5, and then James, aboutthe journey of these crucibles,
lead us on a journey ofcharacter formation that leads
to endurance.
And then Paul, in his own way,and as James says, let endurance
have its perfect result.
And what's interesting aboutthat word perfect?
(29:32):
It's the word complete thatcomes from the seventh day story
in Genesis, at the end ofGenesis one it's actually the
beginning of Genesis two aboutabout the skies and the land
being finished, completed, it'sthe same word.
So there's this conception.
The ground zero for the biblicalauthors is that God is without
(29:54):
change, as as James says,meaning that God doesn't need to
undergo a journey to get better.
God just is infinite goodnessand in his generosity God has
created something that is notGod, namely creation, and
invites it to share in a journeytoward the completeness that is
(30:16):
a mirror of God's owncompletion.
But what that means is thatanything that's not God that's
going to become complete has togo on a journey, and that's the
seven-day narrative.
It's an image about a journeythrough cycles of light and dark
, and every day has evening andmorning, until you get to the
(30:40):
seventh day in which everythingis completed and it's the only
day in which it says there wasno evening.
It's sort of like the sevendays is an image of there being
no more night, as the author ofthe Revelation puts it.
So in a way it's baked in tonot being God.
If you're not God, it meansyou're going to go on a journey
(31:02):
and it's going to be cycles oflight and dark.
And I guess the question is youknow what's worth entering into
union with God's own goodness?
Because I think that's probablywhat most of us are after is a
(31:23):
search for the good and a searchfor safety and shalom and peace
.
And we end up having to gothrough all these cycles to get
there.
Most of them we didn't ask for.
That happened to us and somehowthe biblical story is trying to
instill within us this patienthope that the cycles are headed
(31:44):
in a direction towardscompleteness.
So that's where my mind went asI was hearing John's story and
hearing you talk, and I thinkyou know, not all cultures view
time.
This way, you know if you holda view that you're trapped
within karmic cycles.
It's not a very hopeful way ofviewing human existence.
(32:08):
But the biblical story istrying to tell us that our
cycles of going through thenight are going somewhere and,
in God's wisdom, he's taking usthere, and the character
formation we undergo along theway is indispensable to the
journey.
(32:29):
It can't be replaced bysomething else, which is both
not very good news and, I guess,the best news you could ask for
.
Speaker 1 (32:39):
If you had a mic in your hand, it just dropped.
Because that was a verypowerful reflection, man.
I mean, honestly, I had notthought of it that way.
I love that picture that yougave about the cycles and
creation and it being completeand just the journey, man.
That's a great way to wrapthings up, man.
(32:59):
So good distracted reflectionas John was talking Hopefully
you listen to John normally, butI'm glad you didn't at that
time.
Speaker 2 (33:07):
I wasn't listening, I was just thinking about all
that.
Yeah, no, I'm gonna have tothink back on that.
Speaker 1 (33:13):
That's pretty powerful man.
So thinking about all that yeah, no, I'm going to have to think
back on that that's prettypowerful man.
So thanks for sharing that.
It's just in context with thiscrucible discussion.
I think that's a powerful wayto end it.
So well, guys, I reallyappreciate your time.
Thanks for chewing on thisstuff with me.
You know I pray that yourstories and you know what we've
(33:35):
talked about will be impactfulto those who listened.
And also, just if you wouldn'tmind, I'd love to just pray over
your ministry.
I mean, the work that God hasyou guys doing is awesome and
it's reaching so many people andI love it and I just I pray
that God would continue to findfavor on the work that you're
doing.
So I'd like to just close thisup in prayer and then we'll wrap
(33:57):
up.
Is that cool, okay?
Speaker 2 (33:59):
Yeah, thank you, drew , thank you.
Speaker 1 (34:01):
Awesome, lord.
We just come before you today,lord, and we lift up the Bible
Project and their whole team andthe organization, lord, the
purpose at which they exist,lord, and it's to make your name
known among the nations.
And, lord, I just pray forgifting John and Tim with the
skills and the abilities thatyou've given them, lord, to be
(34:22):
just a perfect picture of a teamcomplimenting one another, lord
, to bring something to lifethat was in their hearts, and in
different ways and in differentskill sets, and thank you for
bringing them to the point towhere they're at.
Lord, we just pray forcontinued wisdom and favor and
blessing over their ministry andthe work that you're doing
(34:43):
through the organization.
We pray these things in yourname, amen, yeah, amen.
Guys, it's been a real pleasure.
I really appreciate the timeand hopefully we are all
emerging better as leaders onfire for getting to have this
conversation with one anotherand getting to know each other.
So thank you guys.
(35:07):
Thank you for listening totoday's episode.
Perhaps it has prompted apainful memory or challenged you
to reflect on times you were inthe crucible.
Some of you may be in acrucible now, but be encouraged.
Maybe, just maybe, god is usingthis to refine your character
so that you emerge as a leaderon fire.
(35:29):
If today's episode was anencouragement to you, share it
with others who may also findencouragement in the Leaders on
Fire podcast.
So let's go into the world.
Sent out as leaders on fire.
Until next time.
This is the Leaders on Fire podcast.
On this show, we'll be invitingguests in to talk about
crucible moments in their livesand unpack how it developed
character and perseverance andhow they emerged as leaders on
fire.
We hope that this podcast is anencouragement and an
inspiration to you.
This episode is part two of ourpodcast with John and Tim, the
(00:27):
founders of the Bible Project.
If you didn't get a chance tolisten to episode one, please go
and do so.
It is awesome.
Today we're going to dig in alittle bit deeper with them and
we're going to enter thecrucible and we're going to hear
from them crucible moments intheir life that shape their
character and their leadership.
So let's welcome them back tothe show.
Tim and John, welcome back.
(00:52):
Glad to have you again, Hello.
Speaker 2 (00:56):
Yeah, Hi Drew.
Speaker 1 (00:57):
Last episode we dug into this idea of the crucible
and we unpacked what that lookslike scripturally and we had
some good discussions aroundthat, and so it really sets us
up for this next phase of thepodcast, which is where we
actually enter into the crucible.
We're going to bring thoseexperiences, those emotions,
those feelings back onto thetable and kind of process those.
(01:19):
And so I'd like to ask you guys, you know, to get vulnerable
and maybe share about a cruciblemoment or season in your life.
Maybe it's related to the Bibleproject, maybe it's not, but
just wanna be able to unpackthat.
And again, the point of this isto encourage our listeners that
everyone's gonna go throughcrucibles and I say that plural.
(01:40):
Everyone's gonna go throughthem varying degrees and for
varying purposes.
And so the idea is that you knowsharing your story really as a
way to encourage other peoplewho may be in a crucible now or
have been through some in thepast, or for those who come to
one in the future.
They can maybe reflect back onyour words and maybe what your
(02:02):
perspective was, and that mighteven be the rawness of what you
felt, like this really stinks or.
Lord, get me out of this or I'mnot down with this test.
Whatever it may be, there's therealness factor of it.
And we see, King David boy, hesure expressed the realness of
(02:25):
these things in his writings,the very realness, very raw
feelings of the crucible moments, right, but then he also
rejoiced on the other end ofthose oftentimes.
And so, anyways, just to setthat up, I want to turn that
over to you guys and say, hey,what would you like to share
about crucible moments in yourown lives, about crucible
(02:45):
moments in your own lives,reflecting on that question and
thinking about Bible Project andthe beginnings of Bible Project
.
Speaker 3 (02:53):
A really hard but important time in my life was
selling the business that I wasin.
It was actually two businessesOne I just kind of let go and
one I sold.
And particularly the one that Isold was really connected to
(03:16):
this for me, like the sense ofwho I was as a creative.
It gave me identity and it wasalso connected to some really
meaningful relationships, peopleI didn't want to let down.
But God was making it reallyclear to me that my time in the
(03:42):
business was coming to an endand that I wanted to try to
figure out how to juggle stillowning the business but not
really participating in thebusiness.
And God kind of gave me thisconviction that he wanted me to
be kind of single-minded andfocused on just one thing, and I
(04:02):
think it was maybe some gracein my life, like I'm not good at
juggling too many things andbut what?
What made it so hard was thatmy not just the relationships,
but really my identity of ofbeing a successful creative,
(04:25):
being able to do something thatcreates value and it felt kind
of like failure to walk away,and also it made me have to come
to terms with some prioritiesin my life that weren't being
(04:50):
consistent.
Like I really wanted to value akind of workplace culture that
celebrated creativity and hadspace and time for really good
work, but that wasn't reallypresent in the business.
I wanted to have a kind ofbusiness where you had a pace
that was healthy for family life, and I was really a workaholic
(05:16):
in the business, and so it was alot of stepping away from
frameworks that were unhealthybut I felt like were bringing
success or at least just kind ofcontinue to be alluring.
So just all of those things.
You got relationships that aremeaningful, you got identity,
you've got just these habitsthat you're stuck in, and to
(05:37):
just have to make this call oflike I'm just going to just pull
the bandaid off and just bedone, I don't know what that
means for my future.
I don't know what that meansfinancially.
All the things was reallyreally hard.
It was a year-long process, withsome real moments of angst and
(05:59):
depression and frustrationComing out of it, though it gave
me a vision for what kind ofcompany do I want to be a part
of?
What kind of culture do we wantto create here?
What kind of leader do I needto be?
I realized that I hadsubjugated a lot of my own
(06:22):
leadership in the company, thatby the time certain things
started mattering to me, Ididn't have the authority in the
organization to really makechanges I wanted to make.
So what does it mean to be aleader and to actually just own
authority?
I have a relationship withauthority.
(06:43):
That's kind of difficult.
I don't like to be the guy totell people what to do, but if
you believe in something and youwant to create something that
you can believe in, then youkind of have to step into those
shoes.
So, coming to the Bible Projectand then us being able to just
really begin to dream like, yeah, what kind of culture do we
(07:03):
want here?
What's our values?
What's our pace?
What's our pace?
What are we building?
We got to really, I think,because I went through all that
in such an intense way.
We got to be a lot more bold, Ithink, and a lot more creative
in setting.
Some of the things that I'vecontinued to shape about project
is today.
Speaker 1 (07:24):
So you said it was about a year long process and
you had a lot of differentemotions in there.
You said there was pressures,there was depression, you know,
angst.
How did you cope?
Like did you have a vision ofGod calling you to something?
So did that keep you going?
Because oftentimes if there's acall to something else that you
know you're going, it can helpyou get through it, I guess
(07:48):
better I don't know if that'sthe right word or persevere.
So was it a vision that got youthrough that Okay, god's taking
me here or was it an unknown?
Like I'm stepping into this andthere's all these unknowns?
How did you process?
What was your relationship likewith Jesus during that time and
your faith and your trust?
Talk a little bit more aboutthat.
Speaker 3 (08:09):
Well, I mean, we had started Bible Project but it was
still just kind of a volunteeron the side.
Who knows what this will become.
I had started to scheme up whatsome other consultancy business
I could start was.
I started to scheme up whatsome other consultancy business
I could start was, but neitherof those felt like a thing that
(08:49):
gave me enough vision and focusto take away all the angst.
And there was kind of moneythat was coming in and then it
kind of created this culture ofthe money as a scorecard and the
money as a sign of God'sblessing in your life.
(09:18):
And in reality, walking awayfrom the business felt like the
foolish thing to do money-wiseand it created a lot of angst
for me because I felt like maybethat was my one time as a
creative to really strike gold.
The business was working right,and if I step away from it,
what if it doesn't happen again?
And what if I can't find a jobthat I enjoy?
(09:39):
And what if I can't find a jobat all?
What if I can't afford thehouse I'm living in anymore?
And all these things startedand I started to spiral and all
around just kind of the scarcity, like there might not be enough
.
And it was at that moment, kindof at the depths of that
spiraling, where God met me,where God met me and was, you
(10:05):
know, however this works, havinga conversation with God, where
I, you know, hearing God be like, what are you afraid of?
What are you really afraid of?
And me trying to explain to Godlike, well, I'm afraid that I'm
going to do a job that I hatedoing, Like that's going to be a
miserable life.
In fact, I'm going to do a jobthat I hate doing.
That's going to be a miserablelife.
(10:26):
In fact, I'm actually reallyafraid of just not being able to
provide for my family and whatI mean.
Like these are my fears.
And I just remember hearing fromGod like, won't I still be
enough?
And can you still have a goodlife, even if you had a job you
(10:50):
didn't like, even if your familyhad to move in with someone
else?
You know like, can you stilllike be happy?
And I was like, oh yeah,actually I could.
I still have my family, I stilllike, you know, like all the
things that matter, like what?
Why was I putting so much intothis?
Like into income and to me,being able to pursue my creative
(11:13):
passions, Like why was thatdriving me so much?
And just with like this onequestion, I feel like God just
kind of ripped that from me andit was at the right time because
, like I was kind of ready toget rid of it because it was
creating so much angst for meand so at that moment I just
kind of felt free from it and weweren't done yet with trying to
figure out how I was going toexit.
But that moment there was justa sense of of not worrying
(11:36):
anymore, like I'll get what Iget, we'll move on whatever the
next season is.
Like I don't need, I don't needto ultimately worry about that.
Like God is enough and I haveenough.
Speaker 1 (11:48):
And it's interesting, you know, when you think about,
you know, the fire melting awaythe impurities.
It's like we tend to think, andwe desire to be able to just be
able to do that on our own orthrough our own strength and our
own will, that we can getbetter and we can be refined if
(12:09):
we study enough and do enough.
But it sounds to me, like John,you were in a place in life
where this stuff needed shed andit needed melted away, it away,
and it could have only happenedthrough this type of calling
from God, calling you out ofthat business, to get rid of it
(12:31):
and to move on Through thatprocess.
That year process sounds likeit was.
You know, you emerged as whatwe'd say as a leader on fire and
you probably wouldn't havechosen to go through that.
You couldn't haveself-inflicted angst or
self-inflicted depression orwhatever these things are.
God had to lead you throughthat and so, yes, it was for the
(12:52):
purpose of the future, for sure, like what you and Tim have
launched, but to me it soundslike it also was necessary for
some just character refinementto actually prepare you for what
was next.
Does that resonate with you?
Speaker 3 (13:05):
Yeah, absolutely, it's good to reflect on that
through that lens.
It's kind of easy to just moveon and you know it was kind of
quickly after that I mean withinthe next 12 months or so Bible
Project really kicked into gear,so I didn't have to kind of sit
(13:29):
in this wondering what's goingon for very long.
But yeah, you're right, like Ithink, the way I've decided to
show up here at Bible Project,the way we want to build things
here, a lot of that was informedand I think I still would have
had the same intuitions, but Idon't think I would have the
(13:50):
same courage to really lean intothem if I hadn't had those
experiences.
Speaker 1 (13:58):
Tim, what's on your mind?
You got anything you want toshare?
Speaker 2 (14:03):
Yeah, I do.
But also I'm just reflecting onyour journey, john.
I just I remember I rememberall of that.
Mostly it involves us takingwalks and having lunch and like
talking about as you were goingthrough.
All of that that was, uh yeah,that was an intense season for
(14:25):
you.
I think.
What's interesting, I also havememories of that season because
I was going through a relatedkind of journey in terms of
vocational identity thatactually, as I reflect back and
hear you talk about it, I thinkwas a little less intense but
(14:47):
was significant for me.
Actually, as I reflect back andhear you talk about it, I think
it was a little less intensebut it was significant for me
nonetheless.
And I think it was around.
(15:08):
I never had clarity about whereI was supposed to do my thing,
so I came to faith through theskateboard outreach ministry and
so just the creativity of alocal church and some spirit-led
leaders that was my entry intoall the good things in my life
of the journey of followingJesus.
So I've always had a realheartbeat and commitment to just
(15:29):
the life of the local church ina place connecting to the
people where they live.
But as I went through myeducation, I always ended up
being more nerdy and wanting topursue learning and my I don't
know things I was curious aboutmore than any of my friends who
(15:52):
were going into pastoralministry, and so I loved
learning Greek and Hebrew and Iended up creating like personal
reading groups with all myprofessors because I just
couldn't learn enough and theywould end up asking me to teach
classes for them when they hadto go out of town or something,
(16:13):
and so I just loved it and sothat kind of put me on this path
.
Well, I guess I would love togo to graduate school and go do
a PhD and I guess go be aprofessor, because that's what
you do.
If you learn you want to committo that kind of self-inflicted
suffering, but I loved it.
(16:33):
So I think it was just neverclear to me.
But then when I went to graduateschool and I began doing like
teacher's aid and teachingclasses in a university setting,
it was really dissatisfyingbecause none of the students in
the class like hardly any ofthem cared to be there.
They were fulfilling arequirement and so I ended up
(16:56):
going back into the local churchas I was finishing my PhD and
really loved it at the church wewere at in Wisconsin, but I had
this thing about the urbansetting and my skate church
roots and wanting to come backto Portland and so I ended up
coming on to the pastoral team.
We're just the second pastor ata brand new church not very far
(17:21):
from where we are right now andit was an amazing season.
It was so rich and it was asmall pastoral team and just
lots of man 20 to 40-somethingsin urban Portland.
It's the Wild West out here andso some parts of it I loved,
(17:46):
but I think other parts of it inmy education and my real
introverted nature were reallybeing neglected in that season.
So there's a high demand, highextroverted season in my life
and then over the years it beganto catch up with me living out
(18:07):
of sync with some of my own kindof innate wiring and
personality structure, and so Iremember a number of years in I
was doing a wedding and Iexperienced what I recognized
the day after as a panic attackand I could hardly go out and do
(18:28):
this wedding, like I was seeingspots and my heart was beating
crazy and I was like what isgoing on?
And I think I was just soregularly putting myself in
these public environments whereI was like the one in charge of
bringing leadership to the roomor to this group or this problem
or this crisis, and I juststarted to want to retreat all
(18:49):
the time to just go be by myselfwith a stack of books.
And so the bio project wasGod's mercy in providing me an
environment where I could bringcreativity and maybe kind of a
non-traditional way ofexpressing biblical scholarship
(19:13):
in a way that I can teach, butalso in a way that's allowed me
to really keep my relationalenvironment pretty small and
work with a small circle ofpeople and just work with that
group of people for long periodsof time, just on a handful of
(19:34):
projects, and I get to read alot, which is really great.
So I think what I'm talkingabout is a vocational
discernment journey, and I don'tthink I really knew how much
wisdom there is in payingattention to who God's made you
to be, and I fully recognize I'min a very privileged time and
(19:58):
place in history that I couldfind a vocational slot that
aligns with my temperament andmy personality and so on,
because many people you justdon't have those options, and so
that itself is a crucible, youknow, but my crucible was kind
of giving up being the cool hipurban pastor guy and just
(20:20):
recognizing that that is justnot who I'm made to be and I can
be okay with that, and lettinggo of a vision of myself that
that's how I'm going to fulfillwhat God's asked me to do with
my life.
So while there was some angstand stress involved in it, it
(20:42):
was less intense in many waysthan John's journey.
It was happening at the sametime as John was going through
all of that, and so that becamealso a gift for us to be able to
depart from the things we weredoing and there was a kind of
surrender on both our parts thatwe were undergoing with our
sense of identity and thenexperiencing God's gift to us in
(21:05):
this project of getting to dothe things that actually we were
made to do or wanted to do, butto do it in a way that feels
like we're like a redeemedversion of it, and not that it's
been perfect and not that therehaven't been challenges there
have been but my experience ofit has been just a lot of grace
(21:29):
and God's generosity for goingthrough that season.
That was my version of adifficult season.
At least my body thought it wasdifficult, it freaked out.
That matters yeah.
Speaker 3 (21:42):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (21:44):
So maybe it's about sometimes we can have instilled
in us visions of who we are andwhat we're supposed to be doing
that truly didn't come from ajourney of me and God.
It comes from culturalexpectations, social expectation
, and this is not like theDisney message of be your
(22:06):
authentic self, necessarily, butthere is something about
discovering the unique vocationthat God has for each of us, and
that can be a difficult road toshed off versions of myself
that I thought I am or want tobe that actually is not what God
has for me.
Speaker 1 (22:22):
Hmm, yeah, no, I appreciate you sharing that.
I have a similar journey of youknow no-transcript things I
(22:53):
love now, but there's a piece ofthis, okay, that I want you
guys to comment on before weclose out.
No matter how bad, I prayed andactually wanted that literally
for the last, actually, when Godcalled us to go to Papua New
Guinea, we were missionariesthere for three years, and when
he called us back into themarketplace to do missions in
(23:16):
the marketplace in 2013, I wasdisappointed that I was going
back into the business world,because I'd already gone through
that crucible of giving up allof that to go be a missionary
overseas in the jungle, and so Ifully expected to stay kind of
in the ministry lane, and sowhen he called me back into the
marketplace to do missions, Imean I accepted the call and
(23:38):
went for it, but I still steppedback into that same kind of
operational grind for another 10years and while trying to live
out a missional leadership.
So but the thing all duringthat time of that 10 years or so
, that I was back in thebusiness, praying for, looking
for any and every opportunity tokind of escape that so I could
(23:59):
go be me.
There's this element of timethat is so necessary and no
matter how bad I wanted to getout of the crucible or that time
of waiting, I was just simplynot prepared.
Yet there is more to the storythat God was writing, that I
needed to stay in that season oflife longer To really get to
(24:21):
where I am at 44, you might sayin my authentic self, just being
me, and in my vocation.
You might say in my authenticself, just being me, and in my
vocation.
So speak a little bit abouttime because, john, I'm sure,
like you didn't want to take ayear probably, and maybe even as
the Bible projects launched,maybe there's things that have
just taken longer.
Or through your journey, tim,of those different things you
(24:42):
were going through, you know,there's seasons of time that are
necessary for preparation thatwe would rather not elect.
I'd rather just hurry up andget there, and I would have
rather been here 10 years ago,but I wasn't ready or nor would
I have been effective.
I wasn't in.
We're seasoned enough where Godneeded me.
So kind of speak into that alittle bit.
(25:02):
What are your thoughts aroundthat?
Speaker 3 (25:07):
little bit.
What are your thoughts aroundthat?
Oh, wow, you know, I just feelreally fortunate, like my I mean
, just that experience with withbusiness, like it was hard, and
everyone's vision of hard isdifferent, but, and yeah, there
was a year of just like flux andthe whole business, that whole
journey through that, thatbusiness, which was like a four
(25:28):
or five year journey, that neverfelt comfortable, um, but
there's gonna be people who yourwhole life feels that way, um,
and I mean, like you said, drewuh, in the last episode, your
crucible might not end until theheavens and earth unite, and so
(25:53):
I'm wary of trying to say muchabout timing, because I just
feel like I've been given manymercies in my life.
I've saved many mercies, givenmany mercies in my life.
I haven't really had toprobably endure certain things
(26:13):
to get a clear perspective onthat, with the kind of things
that people really struggle withthat cause some real, real pain
and hurt, not to minimize whatI've gone through, but I can
(26:35):
just imagine how much deeperthese crucibles can go for
people.
All to say, though, I believein God's patience and I believe
in his mercy and that foreveryone's stories can be a
(26:57):
little different, and I'm notsure what that means in any
particular situation.
Speaker 1 (27:02):
Yeah, that's a good reflection.
Yeah, that's a good reflection.
You know, and truly, there aresome crucibles that are 100%
environmentally placed on us,meaning if there's an infliction
of some sort, we don't have achoice.
Like myself, john Tim, thecrucibles we were in, yes, we
(27:26):
were following God, but we had achoice also, right, I mean, we
also had a choice and we hadsome role to play in that there
are some crucibles where, let'sjust say, if you've gotten a
disease or you've gotten asickness, that you can't control
that at all.
And so this idea of time, andthe reason why I brought it up,
(27:46):
is because for people who are ina crucible like you, can get
really anxious about time, likeit should be faster or I
shouldn't go through it.
And so, you know, the point isthat the illustration that I
gave with how long I was insomething you know, compared to
a year or compared to otherjourneys, is that you know their
time is relevant to only God'sperspective and the work he's
(28:13):
doing.
And there are some things wejust simply don't know the
answer to and can figure out.
And so, you know, the wholepoint is like how do we, you
know, dig deep and trust infaith, the work that's being
done, looking to the scriptures,knowing that, through these
tests and through these trials,and through, sometimes, the
(28:35):
thorn that's never removed, eventhough we've pleaded and prayed
, this element of time is reallyhis and his alone.
So, tim, what are your thoughts?
Speaker 2 (28:51):
This whole time of my mind was following a thread
about the seven-day creationnarrative, of course, and the
concept of time in that story iskind of setting the framework
for the biblical story.
And then also to two passagesthat talk about in Paul and
(29:11):
Romans 5, and then James, aboutthe journey of these crucibles,
lead us on a journey ofcharacter formation that leads
to endurance.
And then Paul, in his own way,and as James says, let endurance
have its perfect result.
And what's interesting aboutthat word perfect?
(29:32):
It's the word complete thatcomes from the seventh day story
in Genesis, at the end ofGenesis one it's actually the
beginning of Genesis two aboutabout the skies and the land
being finished, completed, it'sthe same word.
So there's this conception.
The ground zero for the biblicalauthors is that God is without
(29:54):
change, as as James says,meaning that God doesn't need to
undergo a journey to get better.
God just is infinite goodnessand in his generosity God has
created something that is notGod, namely creation, and
invites it to share in a journeytoward the completeness that is
(30:16):
a mirror of God's owncompletion.
But what that means is thatanything that's not God that's
going to become complete has togo on a journey, and that's the
seven-day narrative.
It's an image about a journeythrough cycles of light and dark
, and every day has evening andmorning, until you get to the
(30:40):
seventh day in which everythingis completed and it's the only
day in which it says there wasno evening.
It's sort of like the sevendays is an image of there being
no more night, as the author ofthe Revelation puts it.
So in a way it's baked in tonot being God.
If you're not God, it meansyou're going to go on a journey
(31:02):
and it's going to be cycles oflight and dark.
And I guess the question is youknow what's worth entering into
union with God's own goodness?
Because I think that's probablywhat most of us are after is a
(31:23):
search for the good and a searchfor safety and shalom and peace
.
And we end up having to gothrough all these cycles to get
there.
Most of them we didn't ask for.
That happened to us and somehowthe biblical story is trying to
instill within us this patienthope that the cycles are headed
(31:44):
in a direction towardscompleteness.
So that's where my mind went asI was hearing John's story and
hearing you talk, and I thinkyou know, not all cultures view
time.
This way, you know if you holda view that you're trapped
within karmic cycles.
It's not a very hopeful way ofviewing human existence.
(32:08):
But the biblical story istrying to tell us that our
cycles of going through thenight are going somewhere and,
in God's wisdom, he's taking usthere, and the character
formation we undergo along theway is indispensable to the
journey.
(32:29):
It can't be replaced bysomething else, which is both
not very good news and, I guess,the best news you could ask for
.
Speaker 1 (32:39):
If you had a mic in your hand, it just dropped.
Because that was a verypowerful reflection, man.
I mean, honestly, I had notthought of it that way.
I love that picture that yougave about the cycles and
creation and it being completeand just the journey, man.
That's a great way to wrapthings up, man.
(32:59):
So good distracted reflectionas John was talking Hopefully
you listen to John normally, butI'm glad you didn't at that
time.
Speaker 2 (33:07):
I wasn't listening, I was just thinking about all
that.
Yeah, no, I'm gonna have tothink back on that.
Speaker 1 (33:13):
That's pretty powerful man.
So thinking about all that yeah, no, I'm going to have to think
back on that that's prettypowerful man.
So thanks for sharing that.
It's just in context with thiscrucible discussion.
I think that's a powerful wayto end it.
So well, guys, I reallyappreciate your time.
Thanks for chewing on thisstuff with me.
You know I pray that yourstories and you know what we've
(33:35):
talked about will be impactfulto those who listened.
And also, just if you wouldn'tmind, I'd love to just pray over
your ministry.
I mean, the work that God hasyou guys doing is awesome and
it's reaching so many people andI love it and I just I pray
that God would continue to findfavor on the work that you're
doing.
So I'd like to just close thisup in prayer and then we'll wrap
(33:57):
up.
Is that cool, okay?
Speaker 2 (33:59):
Yeah, thank you, drew , thank you.
Speaker 1 (34:01):
Awesome, lord.
We just come before you today,lord, and we lift up the Bible
Project and their whole team andthe organization, lord, the
purpose at which they exist,lord, and it's to make your name
known among the nations.
And, lord, I just pray forgifting John and Tim with the
skills and the abilities thatyou've given them, lord, to be
(34:22):
just a perfect picture of a teamcomplimenting one another, lord
, to bring something to lifethat was in their hearts, and in
different ways and in differentskill sets, and thank you for
bringing them to the point towhere they're at.
Lord, we just pray forcontinued wisdom and favor and
blessing over their ministry andthe work that you're doing
(34:43):
through the organization.
We pray these things in yourname, amen, yeah, amen.
Guys, it's been a real pleasure.
I really appreciate the timeand hopefully we are all
emerging better as leaders onfire for getting to have this
conversation with one anotherand getting to know each other.
So thank you guys.
(35:07):
Thank you for listening totoday's episode.
Perhaps it has prompted apainful memory or challenged you
to reflect on times you were inthe crucible.
Some of you may be in acrucible now, but be encouraged.
Maybe, just maybe, god is usingthis to refine your character
so that you emerge as a leaderon fire.
(35:29):
If today's episode was anencouragement to you, share it
with others who may also findencouragement in the Leaders on
Fire podcast.
So let's go into the world.
Sent out as leaders on fire.
Until next time.
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