March 4, 2025 • 22 mins
In this insightful episode, we are joined by John and Tim, the founders of the Bible Project, as they share their crucible moment. They narrate their own personal journeys, detailing how they found purpose and strength in adversity, reminding us that trials can refine and mold us into effective leaders on fire.
Throughout our conversation, we discuss the interplay between faith, challenges, and transformation. The guests weave in Biblical principles that illuminate how trials can lead to greater understanding and growth. From the testing of one's faith to navigating tough decisions, John and Tim offer a unique approach to seeing the value in crucible moments. They emphasize the importance of shared experiences and community, creating a sense of belonging as we all navigate our respective paths.
This episode invites listeners to reflect on their crucible moments and consider how these experiences have contributed to their personal journeys. As we delve into these themes of resilience and purpose, we hope to encourage you to embrace your challenges and emerge as a leader on fire. Join us for an uplifting discussion that leaves you not only inspired but equipped to tackle the tests life throws your way. Don’t forget to share and engage with us about your own experiences!
Watch The Test here:
https://bibleproject.com/explore/video/the-test/?utm_source=web_social_share&medium=shared_video
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www.leadersonfire.com
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:03):
This is the Leaders on Fire podcast.
On this show, we'll be invitingguests in to talk about
crucible moments in their livesand unpack how it developed
character and perseverance andhow they emerged as leaders on
fire.
We hope that this podcast is anencouragement and an
inspiration to you.
Today, I am more excited thanever because we get to have on
(00:27):
John and Tim, the founders ofthe Bible Project.
I know that they've personallyimpacted my life through the
material that they've put outthere.
They've got such great contentand I'm excited to unpack this
idea of the crucible with themtoday on our episode.
So let's welcome them to theshow.
Well, tim, john, welcome to theLeaders on Fire podcast man, we
(00:57):
are stoked to have you guys onthe show.
Speaker 2 (00:58):
Thanks for having us, Drew.
Yeah, absolutely Happy to comeand talk.
Speaker 1 (01:00):
Yeah, so you know I don't know you guys that well,
but I know you probably a lotbetter than you know me because
I've been digesting your contentfor several years now, so I
know your voice as well.
Our families enjoyed yourcontent.
So, first of all, thank you forthe work that you guys are
doing.
It's really been awesome.
It's been impactful in my life.
And then you know, john, I hada chance to connect with you.
(01:21):
I think it was maybe six monthsago.
You were teaching at Inger Housein Kauai and met my son,
malachi, which, by the way, he'smarried and they are due to
have a baby in May.
Believe it or not, can youbelieve that?
So Malachi's life is growingwell, but anyways, he made the
introduction for us to connect,which I thought was pretty cool.
(01:42):
So, anyways, super stoked tohave you guys on here.
So to start out, I want tolight the fire and, um, learn
just a little bit about each ofyou guys.
So just briefly, kind of shareyou know personally who you are,
do you have families, and justyou know.
Just a couple minute overviewof you personally, and then I'll
ask about the bible project so,yeah, um got a family, wife,
(02:04):
two kids.
Speaker 3 (02:05):
We live here in portland.
We actually kind of havesimilar family dynamics.
Uh, two boys my boys are um 13and 10, about to be 11.
Your boys are, yeah, 13 and 11.
So been in Portland for 20years, but from the Northwest,
(02:27):
and yeah, it's a little bitabout me.
Speaker 2 (02:31):
Yeah, I grew up here in Portland and met John.
We met in college, at a smallChristian college here in
Portland, and there you go.
I don't know.
I kind of started followingJesus because of an outreach
ministry to skateboarders, askateboard park built and run by
(02:52):
a church, and that was myjourney.
It was across the street fromthe college where I met John,
and there you go.
So we also met the women thatwould become our wives in that
season of life.
And then there you go.
So we also met the women thatwould become our wives in that
season of life.
And then there you go.
So I did a season away fromPortland, in the Midwest, in
(03:13):
Wisconsin and Jerusalem, evenfurther west or east for
graduate school, and made my wayback to Portland because I love
it and it's where grandparentsand three babysitting are for us
.
Speaker 1 (03:29):
Oh man, that's great.
Hey, by the way, have you heardof Camp Woodward, the skate
park?
Speaker 2 (03:37):
Oh totally.
Speaker 1 (03:38):
Yeah so I was just there this weekend.
Pennsylvania has a Woodwardlocation.
My son's a big skateboarder, soMalachi was too, but my
youngest son, levi, son Levi,dude, that place is incredible,
it's awesome.
I don't know if you guys havebeen to a Woodward, but oh man,
it was lights out just seenvideos.
Speaker 2 (03:54):
Yeah, yeah, the one here, uh, in Oregon, is right
between Portland and Mount Hood,where all the ski, all the good
skiing and snowboarding, is.
It's an amazing outdoor skatepark there.
Obviously, it operatesseasonally because it's under
tarps and snow a good chunk ofthe year, but it's an amazing
skate park.
Speaker 1 (04:14):
Oh, that's cool.
Okay, so tell us a little bitabout how in the world did you
start the Bible Project.
World did you start the BibleProject.
What was it that inspired youto take action and kind of come
together and say, you know what,maybe if we join forces, we
could do something cool?
What does that story look like?
Speaker 3 (04:37):
Well, we studied the Bible together in undergrad and
afterwards I went and startedmaking explainer videos in the
marketplace, mainly fortechnology companies.
So that was my career and it wasreally fun to learn the craft
of using animation to explainthings, and I really fell in
love with that medium and justalways had this hunch that it
(04:59):
could be used for something muchmore than just selling
technology products or whateverstory we were telling and at the
same time, having this crisisof faith where I was committed
to following Jesus and beingpart of the church and
everything, but my relationshipwith the Bible had fallen flat.
(05:21):
I just didn't know what to dowith the Bible anymore, and I
was really interested intheology and interested in
making sense, but I neededsomeone else to help me make it
make sense.
And so our relationship, Timand I, had just continued
throughout those years, and Timwas this Bible nerd that I could
(05:42):
talk to and try to wrestle downthese questions in a way that
just felt really beautiful andfull of life.
And so just the idea cametogether why don't we use this
craft of animated explainers tothen distill these things that
we're talking about?
(06:02):
And I really had no idea what Iwas tapping into with Tim,
really because you had just awealth of ideas and knowledge to
like let's go.
I've got 100 videos I'd want tomake right off the bat.
Speaker 2 (06:22):
Yeah, I think we didn't have a grand vision.
It was more.
The videos are born out ofactual conversations that we
were having.
Yeah, and then that's why a lotof the video content has our
two voices in conversation andeven though we write those,
(06:43):
those are scripted.
They're condensing actualthings that we've talked through
in actual conversation over theyears.
So that was an importantelement of discovering together,
john working out his questionsand me working out the things
that I think is the cooleststuff in the world to think
about and finding ways tocommunicate it in ever simpler
(07:05):
ways.
And then it's not every day.
You know that you meet a friendwho has an animation studio
already like built and developedwho approaches you and is like
hey, you know, would you beinterested in making some videos
?
So that was kind of the genesis.
It was us in many ways workingout our own journeys of
(07:25):
following Jesus and wanting tohopefully that might be helpful
to other people.
So we made some videos, raisedmoney for them and then released
them.
But then the model again thatyou developed of a crowdfunded
model was what if we would knowreal quick, if the idea had any
momentum, if we invited peopleto help us make the next videos
(07:51):
so they could be paid foralready by the time we release
them, so it can always beavailable for free.
And that idea picked up steamas the project launched.
Speaker 3 (08:02):
Yeah, so that was 2014, and sometime in the end of
2015, maybe 2016?
.
Speaker 2 (08:11):
For me it was 17.
17?
, Early 17.
Speaker 3 (08:14):
For full time Full time.
Speaker 2 (08:16):
It was kind of like quarter time.
First it was volunteer, yeah,weekends and evenings, yeah, and
then it was quarter time A daya week.
A quarter time, yeah.
Speaker 3 (08:23):
Yeah, yeah, evenings, and then it was a day, a week
or a time, yeah, yeah, um.
Yeah, I was, it was kind ofstepping into it.
I didn't, um, I had left myprevious gig, um, uh well, I
still owned a company that Ijust didn't have to work in, so
I just kind of was free, um, soI was giving most of my time,
(08:43):
and I don't know exactly when Istarted paying myself, but I
think I just matched you as youcame on, okay, yeah.
Speaker 2 (08:52):
Blurry season.
Speaker 1 (08:54):
So do you still have the business or did you get rid
of that?
Yeah?
Speaker 3 (08:58):
I got rid of it, which was, I think, a key,
crucible moment for me was thattime period of deciding to let
that go.
But yeah, that all finalized in2015.
Speaker 1 (09:13):
Gotcha.
Well, yeah, maybe we can diginto that more, because I'm
curious about that transitionand that journey and those are
hard to take, those steps, leapsof faith to go into that.
So that'll be good to unpack,okay, so we'd like to shift to
this idea of the crucible.
So that's a good segue and theway I usually position this,
(09:35):
just from my own studying andkind of my own thought processes
around it.
You know, we see in scripturethat the crucible is used as a
picture and a metaphor of Godusing a crucible to melt away
the impurities, right, and hetalks about being purified as
gold or as like silver.
We see references to therefiner's fire.
(09:55):
We see in James him talkingabout, you know, trials as tests
, right, and so we have thesedifferent ideas around these
crucible moments and how Godmight be using those to grow our
character.
And I read something about asilversmith that I think is
really interesting that I wantto get your feedback on too is
(10:16):
you know, I had this idea thatyou know, a silversmith knows
when the silver is ready to comeout of the crucible, when all
the impurities are melted away,when he can see his reflection,
and so likewise it is with Godwhen we're in those crucible
moments and when we're betterreflecting his image.
(10:37):
He pulls us from that crucible,either prepared for something
he's got prepared for us eitherfuture works or the refinement
or the character development.
But we become more and morelike him through those processes
.
Sometimes those crucibles aremoments, sometimes they're
seasons of weeks or months,sometimes they're really really
(10:57):
long for people, and sometimespeople are in a crucible that
only get out once they go toheaven because they're dealing
with some sort of a physicalailment or a sickness or a thorn
that just isn't removed.
And so would like yourperspectives on of your thoughts
on the crucible, how God usesthose and what you see in
(11:18):
scripture.
Speaker 2 (11:19):
Yeah, I really resonate.
We ended up making a wholevideo and a podcast series about
this theme.
In the Bible we call it thetest, but it's interesting one
of the biblical words for test,the Hebrew word bachan, comes
from metallurgy, like thepractice of metalsmithing, which
(11:42):
is about melting down metal sothat any other rocks or
impurities within it can getloosened from the metal when it
goes liquid, and then you filterit out to purify it, and so
it's a deeply biblical image.
It's woven throughout reallythe whole story of the Bible.
(12:04):
In a way, every human being inthe story of the Bible and then
I think it's a model for howwe're to think of the journey of
being a human is aboutreceiving the gift of our
existence that none of us gaveto ourselves, and then being our
existence and life journeyforces us with all these choices
(12:27):
and some of them are reallyhard and force us to give up
what we think we need or want,only to discover that that act
of surrender somehow is theopening of ourselves to what God
has for us, which often isgetting the thing back, like
Abraham got Isaac back after hesurrendered him when God tested
him.
(12:47):
But then other times it's givingup something that you actually,
once you give it up, yourealize it's the thing that you
actually don't want and isn'tgood for you.
So anyway, I don't know.
We could talk for a long timeand we talked for hours, in fact
, about this theme in a longpodcast series but it's a really
(13:08):
important image in the Bible ofgoing through the test as like
the best, worst thing that Godtakes us through you know.
Speaker 1 (13:17):
Well, I'll be sure to include the link to that, those
lessons, in this podcast link,so that'll be great for people
to be able to take that.
And go deeper, john, what'syour perspective around what Tim
shares?
I know it's a big topic, but ifyou run into somebody and say,
(13:37):
hey, john, tell me, what doesthis crucible mean, what's your
couple minute viewpoint on that?
Speaker 3 (13:44):
I think I would just add to what Tim has said, which
is there's a really interestingline in the prayer Jesus gave us
to pray where he says don'tlead us into the test.
It's usually translated don'tlead us into temptation, but
it's the word for test.
It's the same word that Jamesuses.
(14:07):
It's the same word that Jamesuses, it's the Greek word from
this Hebrew idea of God testingus To find out what our
character is, and so there'ssomething good about the test.
But the tests are hard andJesus invites us kind of allows
us almost empathetically, topray.
(14:27):
Father, I know tests are goingto come, but it would be really
nice today if you didn't lead meinto one.
Yeah, go easy on me.
Go easy on me.
It's the prayer of Jesus.
Let us pray, and I've alwaysthought the really good
(14:48):
Christian prays like bring onthe test, and I suppose there is
a place for that, and I thinkwe did look at a psalm where the
psalmist said oh yeah, that'sright.
Speaker 2 (14:57):
Test me and know my heart.
Speaker 3 (14:58):
Yeah, test me and know my heart, Bring on the test
.
But man, you know, I know myheart enough to know like, maybe
maybe let's lay off the testtoday, and so I don't know.
I just think there's somethingthere and we know they're going
to come and we know we deal withthem all the time.
(15:19):
But we also have a God whowants us to find rest and
comfort and know that there'llbe times where we can not get
that into them.
Speaker 2 (15:33):
Yeah, and maybe that's the follow-up to that
line in the Lord's Prayer Don'tlead us into the test, but and I
think, implied, if in yourwisdom you do take us through a
test, deliver us from the evil.
One Like don't abandon us inthe test, be with us through a
test.
Deliver us from the evil.
One Like don't abandon us inthe test, be with us through the
fire, and that's yeah.
(15:56):
There's a lot to meditate onthe fact that Jesus invited us
to pray that regularly.
Speaker 1 (16:03):
Yeah for sure.
Thanks for sharing that.
And I also think of you know,when James is kind of talking
about that at the beginning inchapter one and you know he's
also saying shortly after aboutthe test.
He talks about pray and ask forwisdom and sometimes that verse
(16:29):
is actually used out of thatcontext and it is a good passage
to be praying for wisdom andask what we should do.
If any of you ask wisdom, askwe should ask.
But it's in the context of thispassage around testing, and so
what are your thoughts aroundthat?
Like man, I'm in a crucible orI'm in a season, it looks to me
(16:51):
that when we're suffering andwe're in a trial, we're in a
test, that we're to ask God forwisdom, lord, and it doesn't say
specifically like, oh, ask Godfor help through this.
He just says ask for wisdom.
How do you guys apply that inthat context?
Speaker 2 (17:11):
Yeah, maybe in a way, every significant decision you
make in life is a kind of test,in as much as you probably have
a set of values that's informinghow you might make a decision.
But if you're trying to discernright, you're trying to discern
how you might make a decision,but if you're trying to discern
right, you're trying to discernhow should these values get
(17:32):
expressed.
I don't know.
I'm thinking of a parentingscenario.
My wife are in right now and itfeels like a significant
decision on behalf of one of ourkids and it'll have multiple
implications, you know, for awhile and it's a test.
So exactly we're praying forwisdom.
So in a way it's exactly what Ithink, what James has in mind.
(17:56):
But maybe it's just whatexactly is a test.
Maybe our imaginations tend togo towards emotional, physical
pain or grief, but I think again, this theme in the Bible is
really teaching us to see, everytime any significant decision
(18:16):
is before us, it's anopportunity to probably
surrender something and abandonourselves to God and trust His
wisdom in ways that are going tomight be uncomfortable.
That's my first thought.
Speaker 3 (18:32):
Yeah, one of the things that if you watch our
stuff or listen to ourconversations, you'll know that
we spend a lot of time inGenesis 1, 2, and 3 in
particular, one, two and threein particular, and those stories
(18:54):
really setting the stage forthe template of all the themes
in the Bible and the story ofthe Bible.
And so it's interesting tothink about the test in the
story of Genesis 2 of the treeand we've talked about the tree
of knowing good and bad yeah,the forbidden tree, forbidden
tree.
And we've talked about the treeof knowing good and bad yeah,
the forbidden tree, forbiddentree, or knowing good and evil,
how it's usually translated, tovand ra.
(19:15):
We've talked about it a lot.
And to think of it as a test, Ithink it's always tripped me up
, growing up in the faith, likewhy would God do that?
Is God just being cruel?
Didn't he know that theywouldn't be able to handle that?
Or you know just why trip us uplike that.
But this opportunity to sayyour desires are good, like all
(19:45):
these trees that I've plantedare good and eat of them, but
your desire can lead you astray.
And there's actually one treehere that's going to look good
but it's actually not good.
And the only way you're goingto know the difference is if you
come to me and listen to myvoice, get my wisdom and I'll
tell you what to do.
And it was very simple.
(20:06):
It was like that one not good,and if only all tests were
actually that simple.
But it just sets the templatefor this theme of being in a
moment where our desire isleading us.
One way and this is where thesurrender theme comes in is to
go.
Is that desire actually leadingme in the path of life or not?
(20:29):
Do I need to lay that down ornot?
Because it might be, becausemaybe it is, yeah, but maybe
it's not.
How do I know the difference?
Yeah, and the difference isGod's voice telling us.
And so how do we learn tolisten to God's voice and how do
we know that?
And then this is what the storyof the Bible then takes us on a
(20:50):
journey of what does it mean tofollow God, to listen to his
commands, to read the Bible asGod's instruction.
All of these things then becomepart of that Finding wisdom so
that we can choose the path thatleads to life.
And yeah, I think we're just atthe center of it.
Speaker 1 (21:08):
Man, that's a fun discussion.
I appreciate you guys unpackingthat a little bit with me, okay
, so we've fanned the flame andgot things warmed up a little
bit.
We've talked about the crucible, the refiner's fire, great
discussion, and I can't wait forour listeners to dig into the
lessons on the test that youguys have put together.
So I want to pause and, youknow, I want to invite our
(21:34):
listeners to join us for a parttwo, which we'll talk about next
, which is your stories ofentering the crucible, what that
was like for you and you knowit might be one, might be
multiple, you know and what yourperspective was in it.
And then did it change after?
So we're going to unpack that alittle bit, diving into this
(21:56):
metaphor of the crucible.
So appreciate what you guyshave shared and we look forward
to the continuing theconversation.
Thank you for listening totoday's episode.
Perhaps it has prompted apainful memory or challenged you
to reflect on times you were inthe crucible.
Some of you may be in acrucible now, but be encouraged.
(22:21):
Maybe, just maybe, god is usingthis to refine your character
so that you emerge as a leaderon fire.
If today's episode was anencouragement to you, share it
with others who may also findencouragement in the Leaders on
Fire podcast.
So let's go into the world sentout as leaders on fire.
(22:41):
Until next time, thank you.
This is the Leaders on Fire podcast.
On this show, we'll be invitingguests in to talk about
crucible moments in their livesand unpack how it developed
character and perseverance andhow they emerged as leaders on
fire.
We hope that this podcast is anencouragement and an
inspiration to you.
Today, I am more excited thanever because we get to have on
(00:27):
John and Tim, the founders ofthe Bible Project.
I know that they've personallyimpacted my life through the
material that they've put outthere.
They've got such great contentand I'm excited to unpack this
idea of the crucible with themtoday on our episode.
So let's welcome them to theshow.
Well, tim, john, welcome to theLeaders on Fire podcast man, we
(00:57):
are stoked to have you guys onthe show.
Speaker 2 (00:58):
Thanks for having us, Drew.
Yeah, absolutely Happy to comeand talk.
Speaker 1 (01:00):
Yeah, so you know I don't know you guys that well,
but I know you probably a lotbetter than you know me because
I've been digesting your contentfor several years now, so I
know your voice as well.
Our families enjoyed yourcontent.
So, first of all, thank you forthe work that you guys are
doing.
It's really been awesome.
It's been impactful in my life.
And then you know, john, I hada chance to connect with you.
(01:21):
I think it was maybe six monthsago.
You were teaching at Inger Housein Kauai and met my son,
malachi, which, by the way, he'smarried and they are due to
have a baby in May.
Believe it or not, can youbelieve that?
So Malachi's life is growingwell, but anyways, he made the
introduction for us to connect,which I thought was pretty cool.
(01:42):
So, anyways, super stoked tohave you guys on here.
So to start out, I want tolight the fire and, um, learn
just a little bit about each ofyou guys.
So just briefly, kind of shareyou know personally who you are,
do you have families, and justyou know.
Just a couple minute overviewof you personally, and then I'll
ask about the bible project so,yeah, um got a family, wife,
(02:04):
two kids.
Speaker 3 (02:05):
We live here in portland.
We actually kind of havesimilar family dynamics.
Uh, two boys my boys are um 13and 10, about to be 11.
Your boys are, yeah, 13 and 11.
So been in Portland for 20years, but from the Northwest,
(02:27):
and yeah, it's a little bitabout me.
Speaker 2 (02:31):
Yeah, I grew up here in Portland and met John.
We met in college, at a smallChristian college here in
Portland, and there you go.
I don't know.
I kind of started followingJesus because of an outreach
ministry to skateboarders, askateboard park built and run by
(02:52):
a church, and that was myjourney.
It was across the street fromthe college where I met John,
and there you go.
So we also met the women thatwould become our wives in that
season of life.
And then there you go.
So we also met the women thatwould become our wives in that
season of life.
And then there you go.
So I did a season away fromPortland, in the Midwest, in
(03:13):
Wisconsin and Jerusalem, evenfurther west or east for
graduate school, and made my wayback to Portland because I love
it and it's where grandparentsand three babysitting are for us
.
Speaker 1 (03:29):
Oh man, that's great.
Hey, by the way, have you heardof Camp Woodward, the skate
park?
Speaker 2 (03:37):
Oh totally.
Speaker 1 (03:38):
Yeah so I was just there this weekend.
Pennsylvania has a Woodwardlocation.
My son's a big skateboarder, soMalachi was too, but my
youngest son, levi, son Levi,dude, that place is incredible,
it's awesome.
I don't know if you guys havebeen to a Woodward, but oh man,
it was lights out just seenvideos.
Speaker 2 (03:54):
Yeah, yeah, the one here, uh, in Oregon, is right
between Portland and Mount Hood,where all the ski, all the good
skiing and snowboarding, is.
It's an amazing outdoor skatepark there.
Obviously, it operatesseasonally because it's under
tarps and snow a good chunk ofthe year, but it's an amazing
skate park.
Speaker 1 (04:14):
Oh, that's cool.
Okay, so tell us a little bitabout how in the world did you
start the Bible Project.
World did you start the BibleProject.
What was it that inspired youto take action and kind of come
together and say, you know what,maybe if we join forces, we
could do something cool?
What does that story look like?
Speaker 3 (04:37):
Well, we studied the Bible together in undergrad and
afterwards I went and startedmaking explainer videos in the
marketplace, mainly fortechnology companies.
So that was my career and it wasreally fun to learn the craft
of using animation to explainthings, and I really fell in
love with that medium and justalways had this hunch that it
(04:59):
could be used for something muchmore than just selling
technology products or whateverstory we were telling and at the
same time, having this crisisof faith where I was committed
to following Jesus and beingpart of the church and
everything, but my relationshipwith the Bible had fallen flat.
(05:21):
I just didn't know what to dowith the Bible anymore, and I
was really interested intheology and interested in
making sense, but I neededsomeone else to help me make it
make sense.
And so our relationship, Timand I, had just continued
throughout those years, and Timwas this Bible nerd that I could
(05:42):
talk to and try to wrestle downthese questions in a way that
just felt really beautiful andfull of life.
And so just the idea cametogether why don't we use this
craft of animated explainers tothen distill these things that
we're talking about?
(06:02):
And I really had no idea what Iwas tapping into with Tim,
really because you had just awealth of ideas and knowledge to
like let's go.
I've got 100 videos I'd want tomake right off the bat.
Speaker 2 (06:22):
Yeah, I think we didn't have a grand vision.
It was more.
The videos are born out ofactual conversations that we
were having.
Yeah, and then that's why a lotof the video content has our
two voices in conversation andeven though we write those,
(06:43):
those are scripted.
They're condensing actualthings that we've talked through
in actual conversation over theyears.
So that was an importantelement of discovering together,
john working out his questionsand me working out the things
that I think is the cooleststuff in the world to think
about and finding ways tocommunicate it in ever simpler
(07:05):
ways.
And then it's not every day.
You know that you meet a friendwho has an animation studio
already like built and developedwho approaches you and is like
hey, you know, would you beinterested in making some videos
?
So that was kind of the genesis.
It was us in many ways workingout our own journeys of
(07:25):
following Jesus and wanting tohopefully that might be helpful
to other people.
So we made some videos, raisedmoney for them and then released
them.
But then the model again thatyou developed of a crowdfunded
model was what if we would knowreal quick, if the idea had any
momentum, if we invited peopleto help us make the next videos
(07:51):
so they could be paid foralready by the time we release
them, so it can always beavailable for free.
And that idea picked up steamas the project launched.
Speaker 3 (08:02):
Yeah, so that was 2014, and sometime in the end of
2015, maybe 2016?
.
Speaker 2 (08:11):
For me it was 17.
17?
, Early 17.
Speaker 3 (08:14):
For full time Full time.
Speaker 2 (08:16):
It was kind of like quarter time.
First it was volunteer, yeah,weekends and evenings, yeah, and
then it was quarter time A daya week.
A quarter time, yeah.
Speaker 3 (08:23):
Yeah, yeah, evenings, and then it was a day, a week
or a time, yeah, yeah, um.
Yeah, I was, it was kind ofstepping into it.
I didn't, um, I had left myprevious gig, um, uh well, I
still owned a company that Ijust didn't have to work in, so
I just kind of was free, um, soI was giving most of my time,
(08:43):
and I don't know exactly when Istarted paying myself, but I
think I just matched you as youcame on, okay, yeah.
Speaker 2 (08:52):
Blurry season.
Speaker 1 (08:54):
So do you still have the business or did you get rid
of that?
Yeah?
Speaker 3 (08:58):
I got rid of it, which was, I think, a key,
crucible moment for me was thattime period of deciding to let
that go.
But yeah, that all finalized in2015.
Speaker 1 (09:13):
Gotcha.
Well, yeah, maybe we can diginto that more, because I'm
curious about that transitionand that journey and those are
hard to take, those steps, leapsof faith to go into that.
So that'll be good to unpack,okay, so we'd like to shift to
this idea of the crucible.
So that's a good segue and theway I usually position this,
(09:35):
just from my own studying andkind of my own thought processes
around it.
You know, we see in scripturethat the crucible is used as a
picture and a metaphor of Godusing a crucible to melt away
the impurities, right, and hetalks about being purified as
gold or as like silver.
We see references to therefiner's fire.
(09:55):
We see in James him talkingabout, you know, trials as tests
, right, and so we have thesedifferent ideas around these
crucible moments and how Godmight be using those to grow our
character.
And I read something about asilversmith that I think is
really interesting that I wantto get your feedback on too is
(10:16):
you know, I had this idea thatyou know, a silversmith knows
when the silver is ready to comeout of the crucible, when all
the impurities are melted away,when he can see his reflection,
and so likewise it is with Godwhen we're in those crucible
moments and when we're betterreflecting his image.
(10:37):
He pulls us from that crucible,either prepared for something
he's got prepared for us eitherfuture works or the refinement
or the character development.
But we become more and morelike him through those processes
.
Sometimes those crucibles aremoments, sometimes they're
seasons of weeks or months,sometimes they're really really
(10:57):
long for people, and sometimespeople are in a crucible that
only get out once they go toheaven because they're dealing
with some sort of a physicalailment or a sickness or a thorn
that just isn't removed.
And so would like yourperspectives on of your thoughts
on the crucible, how God usesthose and what you see in
(11:18):
scripture.
Speaker 2 (11:19):
Yeah, I really resonate.
We ended up making a wholevideo and a podcast series about
this theme.
In the Bible we call it thetest, but it's interesting one
of the biblical words for test,the Hebrew word bachan, comes
from metallurgy, like thepractice of metalsmithing, which
(11:42):
is about melting down metal sothat any other rocks or
impurities within it can getloosened from the metal when it
goes liquid, and then you filterit out to purify it, and so
it's a deeply biblical image.
It's woven throughout reallythe whole story of the Bible.
(12:04):
In a way, every human being inthe story of the Bible and then
I think it's a model for howwe're to think of the journey of
being a human is aboutreceiving the gift of our
existence that none of us gaveto ourselves, and then being our
existence and life journeyforces us with all these choices
(12:27):
and some of them are reallyhard and force us to give up
what we think we need or want,only to discover that that act
of surrender somehow is theopening of ourselves to what God
has for us, which often isgetting the thing back, like
Abraham got Isaac back after hesurrendered him when God tested
him.
(12:47):
But then other times it's givingup something that you actually,
once you give it up, yourealize it's the thing that you
actually don't want and isn'tgood for you.
So anyway, I don't know.
We could talk for a long timeand we talked for hours, in fact
, about this theme in a longpodcast series but it's a really
(13:08):
important image in the Bible ofgoing through the test as like
the best, worst thing that Godtakes us through you know.
Speaker 1 (13:17):
Well, I'll be sure to include the link to that, those
lessons, in this podcast link,so that'll be great for people
to be able to take that.
And go deeper, john, what'syour perspective around what Tim
shares?
I know it's a big topic, but ifyou run into somebody and say,
(13:37):
hey, john, tell me, what doesthis crucible mean, what's your
couple minute viewpoint on that?
Speaker 3 (13:44):
I think I would just add to what Tim has said, which
is there's a really interestingline in the prayer Jesus gave us
to pray where he says don'tlead us into the test.
It's usually translated don'tlead us into temptation, but
it's the word for test.
It's the same word that Jamesuses.
(14:07):
It's the same word that Jamesuses, it's the Greek word from
this Hebrew idea of God testingus To find out what our
character is, and so there'ssomething good about the test.
But the tests are hard andJesus invites us kind of allows
us almost empathetically, topray.
(14:27):
Father, I know tests are goingto come, but it would be really
nice today if you didn't lead meinto one.
Yeah, go easy on me.
Go easy on me.
It's the prayer of Jesus.
Let us pray, and I've alwaysthought the really good
(14:48):
Christian prays like bring onthe test, and I suppose there is
a place for that, and I thinkwe did look at a psalm where the
psalmist said oh yeah, that'sright.
Speaker 2 (14:57):
Test me and know my heart.
Speaker 3 (14:58):
Yeah, test me and know my heart, Bring on the test
.
But man, you know, I know myheart enough to know like, maybe
maybe let's lay off the testtoday, and so I don't know.
I just think there's somethingthere and we know they're going
to come and we know we deal withthem all the time.
(15:19):
But we also have a God whowants us to find rest and
comfort and know that there'llbe times where we can not get
that into them.
Speaker 2 (15:33):
Yeah, and maybe that's the follow-up to that
line in the Lord's Prayer Don'tlead us into the test, but and I
think, implied, if in yourwisdom you do take us through a
test, deliver us from the evil.
One Like don't abandon us inthe test, be with us through a
test.
Deliver us from the evil.
One Like don't abandon us inthe test, be with us through the
fire, and that's yeah.
(15:56):
There's a lot to meditate onthe fact that Jesus invited us
to pray that regularly.
Speaker 1 (16:03):
Yeah for sure.
Thanks for sharing that.
And I also think of you know,when James is kind of talking
about that at the beginning inchapter one and you know he's
also saying shortly after aboutthe test.
He talks about pray and ask forwisdom and sometimes that verse
(16:29):
is actually used out of thatcontext and it is a good passage
to be praying for wisdom andask what we should do.
If any of you ask wisdom, askwe should ask.
But it's in the context of thispassage around testing, and so
what are your thoughts aroundthat?
Like man, I'm in a crucible orI'm in a season, it looks to me
(16:51):
that when we're suffering andwe're in a trial, we're in a
test, that we're to ask God forwisdom, lord, and it doesn't say
specifically like, oh, ask Godfor help through this.
He just says ask for wisdom.
How do you guys apply that inthat context?
Speaker 2 (17:11):
Yeah, maybe in a way, every significant decision you
make in life is a kind of test,in as much as you probably have
a set of values that's informinghow you might make a decision.
But if you're trying to discernright, you're trying to discern
how you might make a decision,but if you're trying to discern
right, you're trying to discernhow should these values get
(17:32):
expressed.
I don't know.
I'm thinking of a parentingscenario.
My wife are in right now and itfeels like a significant
decision on behalf of one of ourkids and it'll have multiple
implications, you know, for awhile and it's a test.
So exactly we're praying forwisdom.
So in a way it's exactly what Ithink, what James has in mind.
(17:56):
But maybe it's just whatexactly is a test.
Maybe our imaginations tend togo towards emotional, physical
pain or grief, but I think again, this theme in the Bible is
really teaching us to see, everytime any significant decision
(18:16):
is before us, it's anopportunity to probably
surrender something and abandonourselves to God and trust His
wisdom in ways that are going tomight be uncomfortable.
That's my first thought.
Speaker 3 (18:32):
Yeah, one of the things that if you watch our
stuff or listen to ourconversations, you'll know that
we spend a lot of time inGenesis 1, 2, and 3 in
particular, one, two and threein particular, and those stories
(18:54):
really setting the stage forthe template of all the themes
in the Bible and the story ofthe Bible.
And so it's interesting tothink about the test in the
story of Genesis 2 of the treeand we've talked about the tree
of knowing good and bad yeah,the forbidden tree, forbidden
tree.
And we've talked about the treeof knowing good and bad yeah,
the forbidden tree, forbiddentree, or knowing good and evil,
how it's usually translated, tovand ra.
(19:15):
We've talked about it a lot.
And to think of it as a test, Ithink it's always tripped me up
, growing up in the faith, likewhy would God do that?
Is God just being cruel?
Didn't he know that theywouldn't be able to handle that?
Or you know just why trip us uplike that.
But this opportunity to sayyour desires are good, like all
(19:45):
these trees that I've plantedare good and eat of them, but
your desire can lead you astray.
And there's actually one treehere that's going to look good
but it's actually not good.
And the only way you're goingto know the difference is if you
come to me and listen to myvoice, get my wisdom and I'll
tell you what to do.
And it was very simple.
(20:06):
It was like that one not good,and if only all tests were
actually that simple.
But it just sets the templatefor this theme of being in a
moment where our desire isleading us.
One way and this is where thesurrender theme comes in is to
go.
Is that desire actually leadingme in the path of life or not?
(20:29):
Do I need to lay that down ornot?
Because it might be, becausemaybe it is, yeah, but maybe
it's not.
How do I know the difference?
Yeah, and the difference isGod's voice telling us.
And so how do we learn tolisten to God's voice and how do
we know that?
And then this is what the storyof the Bible then takes us on a
(20:50):
journey of what does it mean tofollow God, to listen to his
commands, to read the Bible asGod's instruction.
All of these things then becomepart of that Finding wisdom so
that we can choose the path thatleads to life.
And yeah, I think we're just atthe center of it.
Speaker 1 (21:08):
Man, that's a fun discussion.
I appreciate you guys unpackingthat a little bit with me, okay
, so we've fanned the flame andgot things warmed up a little
bit.
We've talked about the crucible, the refiner's fire, great
discussion, and I can't wait forour listeners to dig into the
lessons on the test that youguys have put together.
So I want to pause and, youknow, I want to invite our
(21:34):
listeners to join us for a parttwo, which we'll talk about next
, which is your stories ofentering the crucible, what that
was like for you and you knowit might be one, might be
multiple, you know and what yourperspective was in it.
And then did it change after?
So we're going to unpack that alittle bit, diving into this
(21:56):
metaphor of the crucible.
So appreciate what you guyshave shared and we look forward
to the continuing theconversation.
Thank you for listening totoday's episode.
Perhaps it has prompted apainful memory or challenged you
to reflect on times you were inthe crucible.
Some of you may be in acrucible now, but be encouraged.
(22:21):
Maybe, just maybe, god is usingthis to refine your character
so that you emerge as a leaderon fire.
If today's episode was anencouragement to you, share it
with others who may also findencouragement in the Leaders on
Fire podcast.
So let's go into the world sentout as leaders on fire.
(22:41):
Until next time, thank you.
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