What if the secrets to effective leadership were written down 1,500 years ago? The Benedictine order, with 25,000 monks and nuns worldwide operating schools, universities, breweries, and printing houses, offers leadership wisdom that challenges modern management assumptions in profound ways.
At the heart of Benedictine leadership lies a paradox: authority emerges not from asserting power but from serving others. "People who are concerned about their authority have already lost it," explains our guest, describing how consultation and listening create environments where people genuinely want to work. The Benedictine Rule instructs leaders to gather everyone when important decisions must be made, listening to all voices because "God often gives the younger one what is better."
This conversation reveals striking contrasts with conventional leadership practices. Rather than rushing to action during crises, Benedictine leaders prioritize reflection. Instead of defending their ideas, they create "fear-free spaces" where all contributions are valued. Talent development happens not through formal systems but by observing how individuals function within community—do they notice what's needed beyond their immediate tasks?
Most revolutionary is the understanding that leadership isn't about having answers but opening spaces for collective wisdom. When leaders admit "I don't have the solution" and genuinely invite contributions, they build high-performance teams united by shared purpose rather than command. As our guest emphasizes, "The solutions arise from the people... to perceive them first, to take them seriously, to listen, and to open up for a common solution."
Whether you lead a global organization or a small team, these centuries-old principles offer a refreshing alternative to ego-driven leadership. Listen now to discover how ancient wisdom might transform your approach to developing talent, navigating change, and creating environments where people and ideas flourish.
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https://www.stefan-goetz.com/
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:11):
The World of the World of the World of the World
of the World of the World of theWorld of the World of the World
of the World.
You are the spokesman of 25,000monks and nuns worldwide and a
global company, if you like,perhaps even one of the in
(00:44):
companies as managementpersonalities.
I would like to compare it to acompany that has worldwide
branches which are autonomous,both in the USA, in Asia, in
Europe, as well as in Africa,and a company that is almost
(01:07):
twice as big as Porsche.
And today we have theopportunity to talk to you about
how the order, how this company, the Benedettina, is developing
and how it is set up and howyou, as the prime minister, as
the top speaker in your office,but also as a person, how you
(01:30):
lead this company and possiblygo other ways than in a normal
business, and maybe to yourperson.
When I was researching and alsoin the phone calls that we had
before in the conversations, itbecame clear to me that Ora et
(01:53):
Labora is also meant in terms ofvocabulary, because you have a
pensive that is the same for achairperson.
Just hearing where you were thelast ten days and what they did
they were in the USA, they werein Amsterdam, they were in
Zurich, they were in Hamburg.
I think their account is very,very similar to that of other
(02:14):
board members and what they doand their work in a few years,
also since 2004, I think, theyhave published almost a dozen
books.
They are in the businesscouncil of Gotha.
They have the Great GermanWelfare Cross, which was held in
2007.
(02:35):
These are things that weperceive little by a monk and I
think we want to exploresomething today.
But what this monkship, theseBenedictines, really allow us to
do differently?
And my first question is if wecompare the Benedictines, these
(02:58):
great orders, with a company,what kind of company would that
be?
Speaker 2 (03:03):
It is very difficult to compare with an economic
company, because the actual goalis the realization of a
spiritual ideal and thepersonality within a community
that wants to live the gospel.
On the other hand, such anassociation, a monastery or a
(03:25):
monastery association, must alsoexist, must survive.
And Benedict gave the monks onething on the way to live by
their own hands.
And if they really have to laytheir hands on it, they should
not be sad.
It was not always great at thattime, the enthusiasm to make
(03:47):
your hands dirty here, but atthat time it gave the evening
land, our whole Western culture,a new trend to live from the
work and to see the work as thefulfillment of human being, not
(04:10):
as the only one but as a veryimportant one.
He says whoever does not workwill fail in the music course.
And even on Sundays the abbotis supposed to press a monk's
work into his hand if he doesn'twant to read or can't read.
Even the sick should do a lightjob so that they don't go to
(04:34):
music, because the music-gain isthe enemy of the soul.
And with that he actually laidthe foundation for a culture of
work which was otherwise seen inthe evening land as a culture
of slaves.
If I look around the globe, inall cultures up to the recent
(04:56):
past, handwork was actually amatter of slaves and women, and
something completely new hasemerged here and at the moment.
When I have to organize thework, of course, the first
simple management questionsarise how to organize it
reasonably?
(05:17):
Benedikt also says, for example,that the abt should record
which devices he has given outto work and they should be
returned properly.
First of all.
These are very simple thingsthat, let's say, repeat
themselves in Africa today orhave refined themselves
(05:38):
throughout history.
If today we have a largeprinting house in Santo Tilo,
for example, then it must beguided according to modern
facial view and it has to runlike that.
Or if we look at the AdmontStift in Austria, they have a
lot of forests, but they saythat the wood brings little
(05:58):
money.
Today it is about the processedwood.
You have employees who thrownew things on the market again
and again, with doors, floorsand more, to simply remain
competitive.
In the meantime, they are alsoconnected to a Swedish company,
because you can't do it aloneanymore.
Speaker 1 (06:20):
I find that very exciting because, especially
when we look at it, monasticismis first of all connected with
prayer.
That is one part of reality.
The other part you havementioned it from a wider
perspective you are an economiccompany with a solidary mind
(06:40):
with different business areas.
Yes, how many people know thatthey not only do religious work,
but that they ultimately alsodo agriculture, that they do
breweries, that they have anarea of education, and that is
school education as well ashigher education?
(07:01):
We are sitting here near theSant Anselmo High School, which
trains priests worldwide.
Speaker 2 (07:07):
We have around 150,000 students around the
globe.
Speaker 1 (07:12):
It's an absolute key sentence.
You say as I have met you alsofrom the account and description
, and I would like to go intodetail.
I would like to start with yourleadership culture, I would say
also translated into corporateculture, which we have here,
(07:35):
which is shaped by somethingcalled the Benedictine rule.
Could you translate for us whata Benedictine rule is, what it
is for and how we could compareit in the company?
Speaker 2 (07:48):
Yes, it is practically a relatively thin
booklet with behavioralstandards of a Christian
community how to live, work andpray and study together.
These are the basic rules ofhuman interaction.
To name a few, the first isfull respect for the other, for
(08:12):
the individual.
The abd should know whatdifficult task he has taken to
lead people and to serve thekind of many, what that means to
serve the kind of many.
An abd has only experiencedthis over the years.
Then the second rule thatwhenever something important is
(08:33):
to be decided in the monastery,the abbot calls all monks
together and consults them.
He places them there.
Everyone should come to theword, but everyone should not be
(08:56):
just, but listen fully andcompletely to the other, and
then the abbe should go to thecouncil with his own eyes and
make the decision.
The abbe is ultimately in theabbe's hands.
There was no democraticco-delegation.
That is the case today.
That is already demanded by thechurch law, but it requires an
(09:18):
incredible respect for eachother.
The employees, the fellowworkers should not also express
their opinion in aninappropriate way, but it should
be a common search actually ofthe solution.
What is the best?
I don't have to make my ownopinion and then stand out.
(09:43):
That's not the point.
Benedict said, and I can gointo this he should listen to
everyone, because God oftengives the younger one what is
better.
Speaker 1 (10:02):
Now we are getting very concrete.
Speaker 2 (10:05):
And that in the 6th century.
If the community is bigger,then the abt should divide them
into ten groups.
He is to be divided into tengroups, decanated, and he is to
appoint decanates at the top,men of good reputation, also
(10:25):
those who of course go with him,those with whom he can carry
and share the burden.
So it is a sharing and sharingof responsibility, which is
something completely differentthan just a delegation.
Speaker 1 (10:45):
I would like to take up some thoughts, because a
major topic in leading companiesis what we call the war for
talents.
Yes, so the talents for globalcompanies to either bind
themselves or to overcome, andwe know very well from studies
(11:07):
that money does not play theprimary role.
That is an entry card.
Speaker 2 (11:12):
Where one feels here he can unfold, here he is taken
seriously, here he can also workrelatively independently.
That makes me happy.
I also experienced it hereright at the beginning of my
office time very quicklyafterwards, that people like to
come here for work, come to work, and of course their apps are
(11:42):
also kept, which I understand athome, but they would like to
come.
Or someone who had the financeshere and the whole, let's say,
economic interests of the housewho was then calledbey two or
three years later to hismonastery to take up another
task there, he said now that Ifinally feel comfortable at work
(12:06):
, I have to go.
I think that's the decisivething that someone knows that he
is respected and appreciated athis workplace, he can unfold
himself, he does not have toshow off too much because he is
recognized anyway.
It all lies very well with theboss, and I think that is the
(12:31):
actual thing about leadership,which you cannot learn without
anything else but which is up tothe person in charge himself to
let the others come, to let thetalents of the others who are
there develop.
The important thing is tointegrate the whole thing, but
(12:52):
the individuals often knowthings much better.
What should I intervene in thecar.
I understand much too little ofit.
I only say you have to do it.
Well, it has to work, and Irely on that.
That you can do it too, and ifnot, then I have to look for
someone else.
Speaker 1 (13:10):
Yes, let's stay with the question of talents To
recognize and promote thetalents and to develop further,
especially before the background.
And I think we could get a lotof inspiration from that,
because someone who enters amonastery so I would say enters
a branch enters for a lifetimeor for a long time.
(13:34):
That means, with yourBenedictine rule, that also
includes leadership principles,so to speak.
Do you have an idea of how youlong-term this talent to
recognize and develop?
Speaker 2 (13:49):
I can, through the with the people, recognize
relatively quickly where his lieand, of course, where my
weaknesses lie.
But for example, if someone isvery talented, then I send them
to a good university.
I also ask people out.
I have a brother who is verytalented.
(14:12):
I sent him to the languageinstitute in Bochum for crash
courses in Chinese.
He said in the long run we needsomeone who can speak Chinese
well on our side and I just haveto challenge him, otherwise he
will fail, so to speak.
But then to develop his skills.
I sent another one toSant'Anselmo to study philosophy
(14:38):
and theology, not just for thesake of studying, but I wanted
to give him a broader experiencebase, something that he could
never have experienced at theUniversity of Munich, for
example.
This internationality with us,also the diversity of the
Benedictine traditions that hecan experience in San Sansemo,
(15:02):
the diversity of the culturesthat come together here.
We are here, for example, 120men, mostly monks, who come from
40 nations and more.
As a young person I already geta completely different
experience.
That means I want to allow mypeople to experience the best
(15:26):
possible, training first of all,but training not in the sense
of just a professional training,but a broad human experience.
Speaker 1 (15:39):
That's super exciting , because I stand in front of
the questions as a manager atBMW, at Lufthansa, at Porsche,
at Deutsche Bank.
How do you do that?
So is that the task of the abt?
Do you have a system?
Is it a gut feeling?
How does he get there?
Speaker 2 (15:58):
So it's a bit of a gut feeling, I would say A bit
of intuition, also, through theway I see it, whether someone is
moving, whether he is onlyfollowing a thing in a narrow
path or whether he can doseveral things at the same time.
(16:19):
Not everyone can do that.
There are two very simpleexamples for me to recognize the
fundamental flexibility andintelligence.
This is the dining room.
We serve each other and theycome with the dishes.
(16:43):
And then it's about taking careof all the fellow brothers.
That's not a problem at thefirst time.
But then to have a look at it,where is still something needed?
There are people who stand inthe car who scratch everything
(17:07):
together.
They are completelyself-employed.
And others, they seeimmediately where someone still
needs something and to have thatin mind, one is afraid to think
about his little thing.
The other does it so quicklynext door but he has a view of
(17:29):
the whole.
And I notice it also with thetable reader.
At our table we read in advance, we have a table reader, we
read at the table and there youcan also see the spiritual or
the abilities and the mobility,whether someone has a
comprehensive overview.
There are people who readletters pa pa, pa, pa, pa, one
(17:51):
after the other.
And then there are people whoread syllables.
That's a little better, butthen it's hard to understand the
whole text.
There are people who readsentences.
That's much better, but thereare people you can feel that
they have the whole paragraph inmind and read the text, not
just sentences, and that's apiece of talent that someone
(18:16):
brings along.
It's just not everyone issuitable for everyone or, let's
say, better suited, andtherefore I have to use the
people later.
Speaker 1 (18:26):
I have heard once that it is about perceiving what
is needed.
Yes, that requires a greaterlook, a look into connections in
connection and requires theperson in charge to perceive it.
Speaker 2 (18:41):
Yes.
Speaker 1 (18:41):
This makes it clear that they develop or bring with
them greater things in theiroffice or in their function or
in the order.
How is this taught?
Speaker 2 (18:57):
It is actually more due to the concrete challenge,
so not because I would make aspecial course for it.
The most important thing seemsto me to be a fundamental
attitude of the leader to servethe company or the people, that
(19:20):
my position actually does notmatter at all, whether I have
authority or not.
People who are concerned abouttheir authority or concerned
about it have already lost it.
In the moment when I serve theother, or also a company
philosophy where I constantlytinker and do it with others,
(19:46):
the others feel so recognizedthat the recognition comes back
to me, so I don't have to worryat all.
I have to be on the road withthe others, so to speak.
That's what it's all about Inthe moment.
When I'm just sitting at thedesk and think about something,
it goes like this next to it, Ihave met people who have really
(20:10):
thought through everything indetail for their area, have
thought through everything andhave experienced a lot of
opposition because someone hasthought it out for them on the
desk, maybe in the bestintention, but I say we were not
even asked.
(20:31):
I was not even asked whether itwas possible at all, whether it
was even possible or if Iwanted it at all.
Speaker 1 (20:41):
That means you talk about taking people with you,
but also going together, andthere is a piece of dialogue on
the one hand.
On the other hand, there wasalso the topic of authority.
How does the leadership betweendialogue and authority fit
(21:02):
together?
How is that practical?
Speaker 2 (21:05):
The authority comes, of course, first of all from the
office itself.
Because I am elected, I takeover the office.
Everyone has respect for that,otherwise he wouldn't have
chosen you.
You need someone who leadseverything together and also
continues to lead.
Without authority it isimpossible, otherwise it will be
(21:25):
chaos.
But it can also lead to chaosif someone thinks that he can do
everything alone, that he candecide and decide everything
alone.
Especially insecurepersonalities are inclined to
tie up and decide everythingthemselves.
(21:46):
But the moment I really questionthe others and consult with
them, a consciousness arisesover a long time.
I advise him, a consciousnessarises over a long time.
With this man you can work.
It is not about his power, buthe takes care of us and it is a
(22:06):
pleasure to work with him.
There is, then, one more thing.
Very special case is with suchmeetings when people are not
sure, leaders who are not ableto listen to others because they
are afraid that their conceptwill come together or they may
(22:30):
have to be the whole thing andlet it remain which they have
been filled with great love.
Then they start to tie cling,they get scared, and then the
manipulation begins.
Then such leaders think beforea meeting how do I get the
others to say yes, while I, forexample, have always assumed
(22:53):
that the problem is there and wehave to solve it together, not
how I want to solve it.
I have to that is myresponsibility deal with the
question through previous advice, also make sure that I find a
solution model.
But it may then be thatsomething completely different
(23:14):
comes out in the end and theother has to feel that that
doesn't matter to me.
I once asked the entire membersof the small board of directors
in a difficult question at aproject.
But he had one oversight of thesmall committee, but he had
(23:38):
overlooked one.
And promptly, when I presentthe problem and say I could
imagine that the solution wouldgo in this direction, I was shot
from the gun by theAsoa-schmarrn.
Of course you breathe throughit first if it comes along so
abruptly, but then you don't tolet it come out but to say it
(24:00):
may be that it is a schmuck, butthe problem is there and we
have to solve it, and we have tosolve it together now and there
is no other solution.
There is no other solution.
But the biggest stupidity thatI could have committed would
have been if I had said Ed, wehave now.
You see, I was right.
It's not about having the right, it's about finding the right
(24:25):
path.
Speaker 1 (24:30):
How can I, as a leader, distinguish whether it
is my employees or a game ofchange for me as a leader?
So how do I recognize that itis simply a bad employee, or it
is my way of leading him, or heis also reflecting on topics
that I myself have not yetunderstood?
Speaker 2 (24:45):
It may also be that the chemistry is not quite right
, as we often say.
Then you have to think aboutwhat to do in the conversation.
So if I say it is perhaps myfault, then I have to let myself
be told.
I don't think I can findeverything from my own
reflection.
I also have to integrate theothers so far that I am carried
(25:12):
along myself and that the othersalso tell me what is missing
and I, especially when it comesto myself, do not immediately
turn away and defend myself.
And that is the worst thingthat can happen, this eternal
self-defense, having the rightand always the question what
(25:32):
else do I have to say?
After all, I have theresponsibility.
Yes, I have it, but I don'tneed to bang the other one from
the bottom.
Speaker 1 (25:43):
I would like to go on , namely in something that you
have named yourself.
Your power consists in thepowerlessness.
Perhaps for the audience,please explain again what your
role as a primus is in the wholeorder, in order to be able to
integrate and understand thisbetter.
Speaker 2 (26:05):
I think, from the leadership of my great monastery
in St Ottilien and what I havelearned there never to
manipulate and never to be awareof my own power.
The word power, it never laywith me.
It was simply about us gettingthrough something together, that
(26:26):
we grow further, that it goeson.
So that my successor said atthe time, as he was asked by the
journalists what would he dodifferently, change everything.
Now he said he didn't know whathe was supposed to change.
The ship is on high seas and ifhe succeeds in continuing, well
then it is the right way.
(26:49):
It has never been about power tome back then, but I have always
experienced our communitystronger and stronger than a
community, than an organism thatactually has to grow together.
And it is growing.
There are changes coming, butthey never have to be so abrupt.
(27:09):
But it goes on, always on.
But not that it only comes tothe train ox or the parade horse
at the top, but I have alsoexperienced it elsewhere, like
it is when the deichsel tearsoff behind the parade horse.
But I say we are all on the way, this common awareness to give.
(27:32):
The responsibility lies notonly with me but with everyone,
just like with you, but not inthe moment.
Yes, do it, but simply to givethe other the feeling I am
engaged, but I need you too.
Speaker 1 (27:49):
How do you convey this feeling?
Speaker 2 (27:53):
This is not possible without further action.
This is due to the person incharge, to the basic attitude
towards the others, to themeaning of what one call
community or togetherness, andthat's what the others feel.
These are non-verbalcommunications.
(28:13):
One experiences how to dealwith one's suggestions or
interventions and these are theactual learning processes.
But I can only give advice,orientations, to say to take the
(28:34):
others completely seriously andeven on the dumbest question or
the dumbest intervention whichin my eyes is really stupid not
to let yourself be taken down,not to react as stupidly, but to
give a factually precise answer.
(28:55):
This has the advantage that notonly the one is satisfied.
He knows that he can bringeverything maybe it was also
malicious, there are also suchpeople and that you can't get
out of it at all.
But the others notice it too andhave the courage to make their
own interventions and they cansay to themselves even if this
(29:20):
intervention may seem so stupid,I will not be put down as the
stupid one, but I will also geta solid answer, and that is a
basic attitude towards otherpeople.
And so I can also convey to theother person I can't do it
alone, I need you.
That's what the prio in thehouse knows now, for example,
(29:44):
the everyday togetherness.
I have to leave that to himwhen it gets stuck.
He does that and he tells meabout it and asks me how we
should do it.
And I have learned to give himmuch more in the hand, ie to
delegate, but also to give himmuch more in my hand.
(30:06):
So to delegate but also to givehim the feeling that I
appreciate him.
It is not like I just leave himtasks, but we talk about it and
I think that talking to eachother, the conversation, that's
how you can tell how much Iappreciate the others.
Speaker 1 (30:34):
Let's go back to the background of self-reflection.
I experience for many leaders,especially in times of crisis,
that they are actionists, thatthey don't know the way and that
they are actionistic, that theydon't know the way and that
they are pouring themselves inwith many projects, but rather
the motto I have done everything.
Speaker 2 (30:55):
I think the first consequence of a rising fear
must be the very soberreflection to turn back and
think about what to do now andperhaps also to get the advice
of others.
(31:15):
Not exactly to think now I haveto put a greater action on the
table, but to think about whatyou have to do In every
difficult situation in traffic.
It does not help to go blindly,but I have to look over how the
Roman traffic policeman does iton Piazza Venezia.
(31:38):
It's unbelievable how he haseverything in view.
And these policemen were alsobrought to Canada to train their
own police officers.
And the Italians wondered howtraffic can flow without any
(31:58):
problems.
But then the Canadians wonderedhow to do it.
If there is really such a realknot, how to solve it in zero
point, nothing.
And the Italians have thispiece of distance observation.
This may also belong to thewhole tradition, to the
(32:19):
Renaissance that was actually inthe Middle Ages, but especially
in the Renaissance this senseof individuality, the dignity of
the human being and also thispiece of self-confidence,
self-awareness which we canobserve quite well in
politicians.
And just lean back.
(32:42):
I would say the first thing todo when facing with a problem is
the thought process, not theaction.
Some people talk before theythink, and that should not be
the case.
What would you?
Speaker 1 (32:58):
like to see in the future.
Let's take the challenge to thefront again.
We would like to have ahigh-performance team which
moves something together on themarket.
What are the ingredients for me, as a leader, to create
something like that?
Speaker 2 (33:24):
First of all, I have this vision now.
That's the main task of aleader anyway to have a vision
and to be flexible in that I cando it like this today, like
that tomorrow, but it's alwaysabout a basic idea that I
actually want to realize, butnot just me.
It is then necessary to callthe others together and say how
(33:52):
do we do this now?
I recently held two sessions,again on a new project here in
this house on a conversionquestion, and the people, the
employees, said you can't dothat.
That had already shaken so highthat no one wanted to work with
(34:14):
the other, and I then made itclear to the people yes, we now
have this problem in front of usand we have to solve it
together, and I think everyonehas their own role to play.
It went as peacefully as onecould not have imagined it to be
(34:36):
.
I then got an email afterwardsalso the thanks from two people
who said it was such a greatsession.
We need something like this moreoften and simply to say I need
you.
I think that is the mostimportant thing.
(34:58):
Then it is not an objective ortheoretical recognition that I
give to the other, but then heis challenged, but I myself must
carry on the idea.
The idea.
I don't need to have inventedit, it doesn't need to be grown
on my mischief, but I must thenmake it my own.
And in this, role modelfunction.
(35:22):
I am first enthusiastic and thenthe others are enthusiastic.
The moment I am enthusiasticmyself, when I talk about it, it
excite the others.
The moment I am excited andtalk about it, it jumps over to
others.
This has to do with the humansituation, with the emotionality
and motivating means that I amfirst of all infinitely excited
(35:43):
about something, but now I amrelaxing the others and that I
myself am first and foremostinfinitely enthusiastic about
something.
And now the others are notsaying you have to do this and
that, but rather the questionhow do we do it?
Speaker 1 (35:54):
And that is the reverse of what we often
experience, namely, not I havethe answer, I have the solution,
I have to have it, I was paidfor it.
But vice versa, open the roomand even admit yourself I don't
have the solution, and then theothers come first and that's the
(36:15):
entry card for the highperformance team and makes me,
as a leader, even stronger thanweaker when I open this room for
it, when I open up this spacefor it, and I think that's the
most important thing that youcan take on the way for the
development of a highperformance team.
I would like to conclude ourconversation with your idea,
(36:42):
with your approach.
You say, to create fear-freespaces or an atmosphere of
freedom.
Speaker 2 (36:50):
Yes.
Speaker 1 (36:52):
Quite practical if you give examples how do you
create such spaces, such spacesof freedom.
Speaker 2 (37:01):
When I have a meeting and I have a problem and then I
go and say dear people, what doyou think about it?
Is that really a problem?
That's the first question.
I see it, but it can also besomething else, and the others
just let it come in this way andnot already lower it.
(37:23):
There are also people whoimmediately when something else
is thought of, feel it asopposition and have to defend
themselves.
The worst thing is to defendyourself.
That can be an unbelievablespontaneous reaction.
Everyone has to work onthemselves.
First, sit down and listen toit in all calm and then say to
(37:49):
yourself next year so now wehave.
The problem is obviously there.
We also have a few solutions.
How should we proceed now Toreally integrate the others?
They also have their heads and,for example, when it comes to
products in a company, asalesperson knows ten times
(38:11):
better how the needs of thecustomers change over time.
I can answer that in acompletely different way.
My task as a leader is actuallyto be the one who listens to
others and to myself to see howit should go on.
And when the others notice thatthey are fully integrated and
(38:35):
that the boss is not afraid ofany stupid idea.
Then it's a pleasure to workwith each other, and then it's a
community, to a certain extentlike a big family, which is on
the way, which simply continuesand looks for solutions.
(38:56):
And one thing is aware of we arenow on this earth and there is
never a perfect solution.
If we have found a solution,then the problem may be
something else again.
And so we must also have thisopenness forever.
And when I am open, then I hear, I think in such a climate,
(39:19):
everyone's fear disappears.
Fear is always there.
Where someone is being cornered, where someone is immediately
hit, how can you even think ofsuch typical speech, how can you
even it's the biggest nonsense,etc.
Instead of saying, well, I'mnot quite convinced of it yet,
(39:46):
so I would, are there any othersolutions?
Just here, even if a group,then if there is a danger of
tying themselves up, then toopen up again To say people, I.
To open yourself up again Tosay people, I'm not quite
convinced yet, maybe there issomething better.
And then that stimulates.
(40:07):
And I think this stimulating,this animating also to say this
is a good solution.
Now let's see what it lookslike in ten years.
I was once one who said I'malways for definitive solutions.
(40:27):
That's wonderful.
Over time, I also have torealize that a car is being used
up, and that applies to allproducts.
There is no eternity on thisworld.
We have to keep on thinking.
And all of these are certainbasic attitudes that, in my
(40:48):
opinion, come from a Christianview of humanity, from the
attitude towards the individualbut also towards the community,
that I also take responsibilityfor the community and not only
think of myself and also towardsthe things themselves.
But in the end the joy of lifeshould come through.
Speaker 1 (41:13):
And today I have know you again, today, precisely
with this joy of life, with thisability to listen, to open up
and, above all, one thing thatwill always remain in my memory
one must like the people, and Ithink that was one thing beyond
(41:35):
the Christian attitude, but alsowhat has become very clear to
me in this conversation todaythat the solutions arise from
the people, the employees, thecolleagues to perceive for the
first time, to take seriously,to listen and to open up for a
common solution.
(41:56):
For a common solution, andmaybe we don't need a CEO
anymore who has to directsomething, but a completely
different understanding ofleadership, which is shaped as
you may see it here in the Order, by dialogue, by partnership,
(42:16):
by respect to the other and histalents and to promote his
talents.
Speaker 2 (42:21):
The other person must know that he is grateful if he
has a good idea and not jealous.
Speaker 1 (42:37):
And I think that's a good credo to also very strong,
very powerful and very creativefor the solutions of employees,
and that also helps the company.
I thank you very much for yourtime, for your thoughts.
I am very sure that we havereceived a lot of inspiration
that encourages us to think forourselves.
And to what you said, beforethe action comes the reflection,
(43:02):
and I think you invite us allto let a little more reflection
grow in the leadership, and thisless is then more for everyone.
I thank you very, very much andlook forward to many more
writings.
Someone who is perhapsespecially interested in your
(43:24):
book I personally advise to readthe book the Art of man.
It is really very well writtenand I think there are far more
suggestions.
Thank you very much, you arewelcome.
The World of the World of the World of the World
of the World of the World of theWorld of the World of the World
of the World.
You are the spokesman of 25,000monks and nuns worldwide and a
global company, if you like,perhaps even one of the in
(00:44):
companies as managementpersonalities.
I would like to compare it to acompany that has worldwide
branches which are autonomous,both in the USA, in Asia, in
Europe, as well as in Africa,and a company that is almost
(01:07):
twice as big as Porsche.
And today we have theopportunity to talk to you about
how the order, how this company, the Benedettina, is developing
and how it is set up and howyou, as the prime minister, as
the top speaker in your office,but also as a person, how you
(01:30):
lead this company and possiblygo other ways than in a normal
business, and maybe to yourperson.
When I was researching and alsoin the phone calls that we had
before in the conversations, itbecame clear to me that Ora et
(01:53):
Labora is also meant in terms ofvocabulary, because you have a
pensive that is the same for achairperson.
Just hearing where you were thelast ten days and what they did
they were in the USA, they werein Amsterdam, they were in
Zurich, they were in Hamburg.
I think their account is very,very similar to that of other
(02:14):
board members and what they doand their work in a few years,
also since 2004, I think, theyhave published almost a dozen
books.
They are in the businesscouncil of Gotha.
They have the Great GermanWelfare Cross, which was held in
2007.
(02:35):
These are things that weperceive little by a monk and I
think we want to exploresomething today.
But what this monkship, theseBenedictines, really allow us to
do differently?
And my first question is if wecompare the Benedictines, these
(02:58):
great orders, with a company,what kind of company would that
be?
Speaker 2 (03:03):
It is very difficult to compare with an economic
company, because the actual goalis the realization of a
spiritual ideal and thepersonality within a community
that wants to live the gospel.
On the other hand, such anassociation, a monastery or a
(03:25):
monastery association, must alsoexist, must survive.
And Benedict gave the monks onething on the way to live by
their own hands.
And if they really have to laytheir hands on it, they should
not be sad.
It was not always great at thattime, the enthusiasm to make
(03:47):
your hands dirty here, but atthat time it gave the evening
land, our whole Western culture,a new trend to live from the
work and to see the work as thefulfillment of human being, not
(04:10):
as the only one but as a veryimportant one.
He says whoever does not workwill fail in the music course.
And even on Sundays the abbotis supposed to press a monk's
work into his hand if he doesn'twant to read or can't read.
Even the sick should do a lightjob so that they don't go to
(04:34):
music, because the music-gain isthe enemy of the soul.
And with that he actually laidthe foundation for a culture of
work which was otherwise seen inthe evening land as a culture
of slaves.
If I look around the globe, inall cultures up to the recent
(04:56):
past, handwork was actually amatter of slaves and women, and
something completely new hasemerged here and at the moment.
When I have to organize thework, of course, the first
simple management questionsarise how to organize it
reasonably?
(05:17):
Benedikt also says, for example,that the abt should record
which devices he has given outto work and they should be
returned properly.
First of all.
These are very simple thingsthat, let's say, repeat
themselves in Africa today orhave refined themselves
(05:38):
throughout history.
If today we have a largeprinting house in Santo Tilo,
for example, then it must beguided according to modern
facial view and it has to runlike that.
Or if we look at the AdmontStift in Austria, they have a
lot of forests, but they saythat the wood brings little
(05:58):
money.
Today it is about the processedwood.
You have employees who thrownew things on the market again
and again, with doors, floorsand more, to simply remain
competitive.
In the meantime, they are alsoconnected to a Swedish company,
because you can't do it aloneanymore.
Speaker 1 (06:20):
I find that very exciting because, especially
when we look at it, monasticismis first of all connected with
prayer.
That is one part of reality.
The other part you havementioned it from a wider
perspective you are an economiccompany with a solidary mind
(06:40):
with different business areas.
Yes, how many people know thatthey not only do religious work,
but that they ultimately alsodo agriculture, that they do
breweries, that they have anarea of education, and that is
school education as well ashigher education?
(07:01):
We are sitting here near theSant Anselmo High School, which
trains priests worldwide.
Speaker 2 (07:07):
We have around 150,000 students around the
globe.
Speaker 1 (07:12):
It's an absolute key sentence.
You say as I have met you alsofrom the account and description
, and I would like to go intodetail.
I would like to start with yourleadership culture, I would say
also translated into corporateculture, which we have here,
(07:35):
which is shaped by somethingcalled the Benedictine rule.
Could you translate for us whata Benedictine rule is, what it
is for and how we could compareit in the company?
Speaker 2 (07:48):
Yes, it is practically a relatively thin
booklet with behavioralstandards of a Christian
community how to live, work andpray and study together.
These are the basic rules ofhuman interaction.
To name a few, the first isfull respect for the other, for
(08:12):
the individual.
The abd should know whatdifficult task he has taken to
lead people and to serve thekind of many, what that means to
serve the kind of many.
An abd has only experiencedthis over the years.
Then the second rule thatwhenever something important is
(08:33):
to be decided in the monastery,the abbot calls all monks
together and consults them.
He places them there.
Everyone should come to theword, but everyone should not be
(08:56):
just, but listen fully andcompletely to the other, and
then the abbe should go to thecouncil with his own eyes and
make the decision.
The abbe is ultimately in theabbe's hands.
There was no democraticco-delegation.
That is the case today.
That is already demanded by thechurch law, but it requires an
(09:18):
incredible respect for eachother.
The employees, the fellowworkers should not also express
their opinion in aninappropriate way, but it should
be a common search actually ofthe solution.
What is the best?
I don't have to make my ownopinion and then stand out.
(09:43):
That's not the point.
Benedict said, and I can gointo this he should listen to
everyone, because God oftengives the younger one what is
better.
Speaker 1 (10:02):
Now we are getting very concrete.
Speaker 2 (10:05):
And that in the 6th century.
If the community is bigger,then the abt should divide them
into ten groups.
He is to be divided into tengroups, decanated, and he is to
appoint decanates at the top,men of good reputation, also
(10:25):
those who of course go with him,those with whom he can carry
and share the burden.
So it is a sharing and sharingof responsibility, which is
something completely differentthan just a delegation.
Speaker 1 (10:45):
I would like to take up some thoughts, because a
major topic in leading companiesis what we call the war for
talents.
Yes, so the talents for globalcompanies to either bind
themselves or to overcome, andwe know very well from studies
(11:07):
that money does not play theprimary role.
That is an entry card.
Speaker 2 (11:12):
Where one feels here he can unfold, here he is taken
seriously, here he can also workrelatively independently.
That makes me happy.
I also experienced it hereright at the beginning of my
office time very quicklyafterwards, that people like to
come here for work, come to work, and of course their apps are
(11:42):
also kept, which I understand athome, but they would like to
come.
Or someone who had the financeshere and the whole, let's say,
economic interests of the housewho was then calledbey two or
three years later to hismonastery to take up another
task there, he said now that Ifinally feel comfortable at work
(12:06):
, I have to go.
I think that's the decisivething that someone knows that he
is respected and appreciated athis workplace, he can unfold
himself, he does not have toshow off too much because he is
recognized anyway.
It all lies very well with theboss, and I think that is the
(12:31):
actual thing about leadership,which you cannot learn without
anything else but which is up tothe person in charge himself to
let the others come, to let thetalents of the others who are
there develop.
The important thing is tointegrate the whole thing, but
(12:52):
the individuals often knowthings much better.
What should I intervene in thecar.
I understand much too little ofit.
I only say you have to do it.
Well, it has to work, and Irely on that.
That you can do it too, and ifnot, then I have to look for
someone else.
Speaker 1 (13:10):
Yes, let's stay with the question of talents To
recognize and promote thetalents and to develop further,
especially before the background.
And I think we could get a lotof inspiration from that,
because someone who enters amonastery so I would say enters
a branch enters for a lifetimeor for a long time.
(13:34):
That means, with yourBenedictine rule, that also
includes leadership principles,so to speak.
Do you have an idea of how youlong-term this talent to
recognize and develop?
Speaker 2 (13:49):
I can, through the with the people, recognize
relatively quickly where his lieand, of course, where my
weaknesses lie.
But for example, if someone isvery talented, then I send them
to a good university.
I also ask people out.
I have a brother who is verytalented.
(14:12):
I sent him to the languageinstitute in Bochum for crash
courses in Chinese.
He said in the long run we needsomeone who can speak Chinese
well on our side and I just haveto challenge him, otherwise he
will fail, so to speak.
But then to develop his skills.
I sent another one toSant'Anselmo to study philosophy
(14:38):
and theology, not just for thesake of studying, but I wanted
to give him a broader experiencebase, something that he could
never have experienced at theUniversity of Munich, for
example.
This internationality with us,also the diversity of the
Benedictine traditions that hecan experience in San Sansemo,
(15:02):
the diversity of the culturesthat come together here.
We are here, for example, 120men, mostly monks, who come from
40 nations and more.
As a young person I already geta completely different
experience.
That means I want to allow mypeople to experience the best
(15:26):
possible, training first of all,but training not in the sense
of just a professional training,but a broad human experience.
Speaker 1 (15:39):
That's super exciting , because I stand in front of
the questions as a manager atBMW, at Lufthansa, at Porsche,
at Deutsche Bank.
How do you do that?
So is that the task of the abt?
Do you have a system?
Is it a gut feeling?
How does he get there?
Speaker 2 (15:58):
So it's a bit of a gut feeling, I would say A bit
of intuition, also, through theway I see it, whether someone is
moving, whether he is onlyfollowing a thing in a narrow
path or whether he can doseveral things at the same time.
(16:19):
Not everyone can do that.
There are two very simpleexamples for me to recognize the
fundamental flexibility andintelligence.
This is the dining room.
We serve each other and theycome with the dishes.
(16:43):
And then it's about taking careof all the fellow brothers.
That's not a problem at thefirst time.
But then to have a look at it,where is still something needed?
There are people who stand inthe car who scratch everything
(17:07):
together.
They are completelyself-employed.
And others, they seeimmediately where someone still
needs something and to have thatin mind, one is afraid to think
about his little thing.
The other does it so quicklynext door but he has a view of
(17:29):
the whole.
And I notice it also with thetable reader.
At our table we read in advance, we have a table reader, we
read at the table and there youcan also see the spiritual or
the abilities and the mobility,whether someone has a
comprehensive overview.
There are people who readletters pa pa, pa, pa, pa, one
(17:51):
after the other.
And then there are people whoread syllables.
That's a little better, butthen it's hard to understand the
whole text.
There are people who readsentences.
That's much better, but thereare people you can feel that
they have the whole paragraph inmind and read the text, not
just sentences, and that's apiece of talent that someone
(18:16):
brings along.
It's just not everyone issuitable for everyone or, let's
say, better suited, andtherefore I have to use the
people later.
Speaker 1 (18:26):
I have heard once that it is about perceiving what
is needed.
Yes, that requires a greaterlook, a look into connections in
connection and requires theperson in charge to perceive it.
Speaker 2 (18:41):
Yes.
Speaker 1 (18:41):
This makes it clear that they develop or bring with
them greater things in theiroffice or in their function or
in the order.
How is this taught?
Speaker 2 (18:57):
It is actually more due to the concrete challenge,
so not because I would make aspecial course for it.
The most important thing seemsto me to be a fundamental
attitude of the leader to servethe company or the people, that
(19:20):
my position actually does notmatter at all, whether I have
authority or not.
People who are concerned abouttheir authority or concerned
about it have already lost it.
In the moment when I serve theother, or also a company
philosophy where I constantlytinker and do it with others,
(19:46):
the others feel so recognizedthat the recognition comes back
to me, so I don't have to worryat all.
I have to be on the road withthe others, so to speak.
That's what it's all about Inthe moment.
When I'm just sitting at thedesk and think about something,
it goes like this next to it, Ihave met people who have really
(20:10):
thought through everything indetail for their area, have
thought through everything andhave experienced a lot of
opposition because someone hasthought it out for them on the
desk, maybe in the bestintention, but I say we were not
even asked.
(20:31):
I was not even asked whether itwas possible at all, whether it
was even possible or if Iwanted it at all.
Speaker 1 (20:41):
That means you talk about taking people with you,
but also going together, andthere is a piece of dialogue on
the one hand.
On the other hand, there wasalso the topic of authority.
How does the leadership betweendialogue and authority fit
(21:02):
together?
How is that practical?
Speaker 2 (21:05):
The authority comes, of course, first of all from the
office itself.
Because I am elected, I takeover the office.
Everyone has respect for that,otherwise he wouldn't have
chosen you.
You need someone who leadseverything together and also
continues to lead.
Without authority it isimpossible, otherwise it will be
(21:25):
chaos.
But it can also lead to chaosif someone thinks that he can do
everything alone, that he candecide and decide everything
alone.
Especially insecurepersonalities are inclined to
tie up and decide everythingthemselves.
(21:46):
But the moment I really questionthe others and consult with
them, a consciousness arisesover a long time.
I advise him, a consciousnessarises over a long time.
With this man you can work.
It is not about his power, buthe takes care of us and it is a
(22:06):
pleasure to work with him.
There is, then, one more thing.
Very special case is with suchmeetings when people are not
sure, leaders who are not ableto listen to others because they
are afraid that their conceptwill come together or they may
(22:30):
have to be the whole thing andlet it remain which they have
been filled with great love.
Then they start to tie cling,they get scared, and then the
manipulation begins.
Then such leaders think beforea meeting how do I get the
others to say yes, while I, forexample, have always assumed
(22:53):
that the problem is there and wehave to solve it together, not
how I want to solve it.
I have to that is myresponsibility deal with the
question through previous advice, also make sure that I find a
solution model.
But it may then be thatsomething completely different
(23:14):
comes out in the end and theother has to feel that that
doesn't matter to me.
I once asked the entire membersof the small board of directors
in a difficult question at aproject.
But he had one oversight of thesmall committee, but he had
(23:38):
overlooked one.
And promptly, when I presentthe problem and say I could
imagine that the solution wouldgo in this direction, I was shot
from the gun by theAsoa-schmarrn.
Of course you breathe throughit first if it comes along so
abruptly, but then you don't tolet it come out but to say it
(24:00):
may be that it is a schmuck, butthe problem is there and we
have to solve it, and we have tosolve it together now and there
is no other solution.
There is no other solution.
But the biggest stupidity thatI could have committed would
have been if I had said Ed, wehave now.
You see, I was right.
It's not about having the right, it's about finding the right
(24:25):
path.
Speaker 1 (24:30):
How can I, as a leader, distinguish whether it
is my employees or a game ofchange for me as a leader?
So how do I recognize that itis simply a bad employee, or it
is my way of leading him, or heis also reflecting on topics
that I myself have not yetunderstood?
Speaker 2 (24:45):
It may also be that the chemistry is not quite right
, as we often say.
Then you have to think aboutwhat to do in the conversation.
So if I say it is perhaps myfault, then I have to let myself
be told.
I don't think I can findeverything from my own
reflection.
I also have to integrate theothers so far that I am carried
(25:12):
along myself and that the othersalso tell me what is missing
and I, especially when it comesto myself, do not immediately
turn away and defend myself.
And that is the worst thingthat can happen, this eternal
self-defense, having the rightand always the question what
(25:32):
else do I have to say?
After all, I have theresponsibility.
Yes, I have it, but I don'tneed to bang the other one from
the bottom.
Speaker 1 (25:43):
I would like to go on , namely in something that you
have named yourself.
Your power consists in thepowerlessness.
Perhaps for the audience,please explain again what your
role as a primus is in the wholeorder, in order to be able to
integrate and understand thisbetter.
Speaker 2 (26:05):
I think, from the leadership of my great monastery
in St Ottilien and what I havelearned there never to
manipulate and never to be awareof my own power.
The word power, it never laywith me.
It was simply about us gettingthrough something together, that
(26:26):
we grow further, that it goeson.
So that my successor said atthe time, as he was asked by the
journalists what would he dodifferently, change everything.
Now he said he didn't know whathe was supposed to change.
The ship is on high seas and ifhe succeeds in continuing, well
then it is the right way.
(26:49):
It has never been about power tome back then, but I have always
experienced our communitystronger and stronger than a
community, than an organism thatactually has to grow together.
And it is growing.
There are changes coming, butthey never have to be so abrupt.
(27:09):
But it goes on, always on.
But not that it only comes tothe train ox or the parade horse
at the top, but I have alsoexperienced it elsewhere, like
it is when the deichsel tearsoff behind the parade horse.
But I say we are all on the way, this common awareness to give.
(27:32):
The responsibility lies notonly with me but with everyone,
just like with you, but not inthe moment.
Yes, do it, but simply to givethe other the feeling I am
engaged, but I need you too.
Speaker 1 (27:49):
How do you convey this feeling?
Speaker 2 (27:53):
This is not possible without further action.
This is due to the person incharge, to the basic attitude
towards the others, to themeaning of what one call
community or togetherness, andthat's what the others feel.
These are non-verbalcommunications.
(28:13):
One experiences how to dealwith one's suggestions or
interventions and these are theactual learning processes.
But I can only give advice,orientations, to say to take the
(28:34):
others completely seriously andeven on the dumbest question or
the dumbest intervention whichin my eyes is really stupid not
to let yourself be taken down,not to react as stupidly, but to
give a factually precise answer.
(28:55):
This has the advantage that notonly the one is satisfied.
He knows that he can bringeverything maybe it was also
malicious, there are also suchpeople and that you can't get
out of it at all.
But the others notice it too andhave the courage to make their
own interventions and they cansay to themselves even if this
(29:20):
intervention may seem so stupid,I will not be put down as the
stupid one, but I will also geta solid answer, and that is a
basic attitude towards otherpeople.
And so I can also convey to theother person I can't do it
alone, I need you.
That's what the prio in thehouse knows now, for example,
(29:44):
the everyday togetherness.
I have to leave that to himwhen it gets stuck.
He does that and he tells meabout it and asks me how we
should do it.
And I have learned to give himmuch more in the hand, ie to
delegate, but also to give himmuch more in my hand.
(30:06):
So to delegate but also to givehim the feeling that I
appreciate him.
It is not like I just leave himtasks, but we talk about it and
I think that talking to eachother, the conversation, that's
how you can tell how much Iappreciate the others.
Speaker 1 (30:34):
Let's go back to the background of self-reflection.
I experience for many leaders,especially in times of crisis,
that they are actionists, thatthey don't know the way and that
they are actionistic, that theydon't know the way and that
they are pouring themselves inwith many projects, but rather
the motto I have done everything.
Speaker 2 (30:55):
I think the first consequence of a rising fear
must be the very soberreflection to turn back and
think about what to do now andperhaps also to get the advice
of others.
(31:15):
Not exactly to think now I haveto put a greater action on the
table, but to think about whatyou have to do In every
difficult situation in traffic.
It does not help to go blindly,but I have to look over how the
Roman traffic policeman does iton Piazza Venezia.
(31:38):
It's unbelievable how he haseverything in view.
And these policemen were alsobrought to Canada to train their
own police officers.
And the Italians wondered howtraffic can flow without any
(31:58):
problems.
But then the Canadians wonderedhow to do it.
If there is really such a realknot, how to solve it in zero
point, nothing.
And the Italians have thispiece of distance observation.
This may also belong to thewhole tradition, to the
(32:19):
Renaissance that was actually inthe Middle Ages, but especially
in the Renaissance this senseof individuality, the dignity of
the human being and also thispiece of self-confidence,
self-awareness which we canobserve quite well in
politicians.
And just lean back.
(32:42):
I would say the first thing todo when facing with a problem is
the thought process, not theaction.
Some people talk before theythink, and that should not be
the case.
What would you?
Speaker 1 (32:58):
like to see in the future.
Let's take the challenge to thefront again.
We would like to have ahigh-performance team which
moves something together on themarket.
What are the ingredients for me, as a leader, to create
something like that?
Speaker 2 (33:24):
First of all, I have this vision now.
That's the main task of aleader anyway to have a vision
and to be flexible in that I cando it like this today, like
that tomorrow, but it's alwaysabout a basic idea that I
actually want to realize, butnot just me.
It is then necessary to callthe others together and say how
(33:52):
do we do this now?
I recently held two sessions,again on a new project here in
this house on a conversionquestion, and the people, the
employees, said you can't dothat.
That had already shaken so highthat no one wanted to work with
(34:14):
the other, and I then made itclear to the people yes, we now
have this problem in front of usand we have to solve it
together, and I think everyonehas their own role to play.
It went as peacefully as onecould not have imagined it to be
(34:36):
.
I then got an email afterwardsalso the thanks from two people
who said it was such a greatsession.
We need something like this moreoften and simply to say I need
you.
I think that is the mostimportant thing.
(34:58):
Then it is not an objective ortheoretical recognition that I
give to the other, but then heis challenged, but I myself must
carry on the idea.
The idea.
I don't need to have inventedit, it doesn't need to be grown
on my mischief, but I must thenmake it my own.
And in this, role modelfunction.
(35:22):
I am first enthusiastic and thenthe others are enthusiastic.
The moment I am enthusiasticmyself, when I talk about it, it
excite the others.
The moment I am excited andtalk about it, it jumps over to
others.
This has to do with the humansituation, with the emotionality
and motivating means that I amfirst of all infinitely excited
(35:43):
about something, but now I amrelaxing the others and that I
myself am first and foremostinfinitely enthusiastic about
something.
And now the others are notsaying you have to do this and
that, but rather the questionhow do we do it?
Speaker 1 (35:54):
And that is the reverse of what we often
experience, namely, not I havethe answer, I have the solution,
I have to have it, I was paidfor it.
But vice versa, open the roomand even admit yourself I don't
have the solution, and then theothers come first and that's the
(36:15):
entry card for the highperformance team and makes me,
as a leader, even stronger thanweaker when I open this room for
it, when I open up this spacefor it, and I think that's the
most important thing that youcan take on the way for the
development of a highperformance team.
I would like to conclude ourconversation with your idea,
(36:42):
with your approach.
You say, to create fear-freespaces or an atmosphere of
freedom.
Speaker 2 (36:50):
Yes.
Speaker 1 (36:52):
Quite practical if you give examples how do you
create such spaces, such spacesof freedom.
Speaker 2 (37:01):
When I have a meeting and I have a problem and then I
go and say dear people, what doyou think about it?
Is that really a problem?
That's the first question.
I see it, but it can also besomething else, and the others
just let it come in this way andnot already lower it.
(37:23):
There are also people whoimmediately when something else
is thought of, feel it asopposition and have to defend
themselves.
The worst thing is to defendyourself.
That can be an unbelievablespontaneous reaction.
Everyone has to work onthemselves.
First, sit down and listen toit in all calm and then say to
(37:49):
yourself next year so now wehave.
The problem is obviously there.
We also have a few solutions.
How should we proceed now Toreally integrate the others?
They also have their heads and,for example, when it comes to
products in a company, asalesperson knows ten times
(38:11):
better how the needs of thecustomers change over time.
I can answer that in acompletely different way.
My task as a leader is actuallyto be the one who listens to
others and to myself to see howit should go on.
And when the others notice thatthey are fully integrated and
(38:35):
that the boss is not afraid ofany stupid idea.
Then it's a pleasure to workwith each other, and then it's a
community, to a certain extentlike a big family, which is on
the way, which simply continuesand looks for solutions.
(38:56):
And one thing is aware of we arenow on this earth and there is
never a perfect solution.
If we have found a solution,then the problem may be
something else again.
And so we must also have thisopenness forever.
And when I am open, then I hear, I think in such a climate,
(39:19):
everyone's fear disappears.
Fear is always there.
Where someone is being cornered, where someone is immediately
hit, how can you even think ofsuch typical speech, how can you
even it's the biggest nonsense,etc.
Instead of saying, well, I'mnot quite convinced of it yet,
(39:46):
so I would, are there any othersolutions?
Just here, even if a group,then if there is a danger of
tying themselves up, then toopen up again To say people, I.
To open yourself up again Tosay people, I'm not quite
convinced yet, maybe there issomething better.
And then that stimulates.
(40:07):
And I think this stimulating,this animating also to say this
is a good solution.
Now let's see what it lookslike in ten years.
I was once one who said I'malways for definitive solutions.
(40:27):
That's wonderful.
Over time, I also have torealize that a car is being used
up, and that applies to allproducts.
There is no eternity on thisworld.
We have to keep on thinking.
And all of these are certainbasic attitudes that, in my
(40:48):
opinion, come from a Christianview of humanity, from the
attitude towards the individualbut also towards the community,
that I also take responsibilityfor the community and not only
think of myself and also towardsthe things themselves.
But in the end the joy of lifeshould come through.
Speaker 1 (41:13):
And today I have know you again, today, precisely
with this joy of life, with thisability to listen, to open up
and, above all, one thing thatwill always remain in my memory
one must like the people, and Ithink that was one thing beyond
(41:35):
the Christian attitude, but alsowhat has become very clear to
me in this conversation todaythat the solutions arise from
the people, the employees, thecolleagues to perceive for the
first time, to take seriously,to listen and to open up for a
common solution.
(41:56):
For a common solution, andmaybe we don't need a CEO
anymore who has to directsomething, but a completely
different understanding ofleadership, which is shaped as
you may see it here in the Order, by dialogue, by partnership,
(42:16):
by respect to the other and histalents and to promote his
talents.
Speaker 2 (42:21):
The other person must know that he is grateful if he
has a good idea and not jealous.
Speaker 1 (42:37):
And I think that's a good credo to also very strong,
very powerful and very creativefor the solutions of employees,
and that also helps the company.
I thank you very much for yourtime, for your thoughts.
I am very sure that we havereceived a lot of inspiration
that encourages us to think forourselves.
And to what you said, beforethe action comes the reflection,
(43:02):
and I think you invite us allto let a little more reflection
grow in the leadership, and thisless is then more for everyone.
I thank you very, very much andlook forward to many more
writings.
Someone who is perhapsespecially interested in your
(43:24):
book I personally advise to readthe book the Art of man.
It is really very well writtenand I think there are far more
suggestions.
Thank you very much, you arewelcome.
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