The automotive industry stands at a critical crossroads, facing what Sebastian Kierysch calls "the biggest challenge we have had in the complete industry since its beginning." After 15+ years as a German executive in China, Sebastian offers rare insights into navigating this turbulent landscape where traditional manufacturers confront nimble Chinese competitors in a "bloody red ocean" of fierce competition.
Drawing from his experience managing five manufacturing plants in China, Sebastian reveals the stark contrasts between German precision and Chinese pragmatism. While German companies typically seek comprehensive information before acting, their Chinese counterparts move decisively with just 70-80% clarity. This difference in approach partly explains how BYD has risen to become the sixth-largest global car manufacturer, slashing development cycles from 36 to as little as 12 months.
Sebastian challenges conventional wisdom about cross-cultural leadership, sharing how he works 100+ hour weeks during crises, speaks Mandarin to better connect with his 1,700 employees, and hosts "lunch with leaders" where staff can speak directly with senior management. His approach creates psychological safety where innovation thrives despite uncertainty.
The conversation explores fascinating cultural dynamics, revealing how the middle generation of Chinese workers (born around 1985) uniquely blends traditional values with international mindset. Sebastian explains why challenging the status quo remains essential even when current methods have proven successful: "Who tells you that you did the best? Who says there is no other solution?"
For leaders navigating today's complex global landscape, Sebastian's closing wisdom resonates powerfully: "It's about being bold enough to make a decision, because if you make a decision, you make maybe a mistake, but if you don't make a decision, you already did the mistake." Listen now for insights that will transform how you approach leadership during times of profound change.
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https://open.spotify.com/show/4OT3BYzDHMafETOMgFEor3
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https://www.youtube.com/@Stefangoetz_Global_Leadership/videos
Connect with Stefan Götz on LinkedIn:
https://www.linkedin.com/in/stefangoetz/
Check out Stefan's Executive and Team Coaching
https://www.stefan-goetz.com/
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:03):
Welcome Sebastian Schierisch, a senior executive,
as a German working in China forover 15 years.
Thank you, sebastian, for beingpart of the show for today.
Speaker 2 (00:18):
Hey, Stefan, hi Nice to have you also here in China
on my screen and welcome to theInternational Mindset.
Speaker 1 (00:28):
Podcast for today, I would like to say yeah,
absolutely, and this is ourtopic.
What can we learn from China inthese days in the automotive
market?
And you have been dealt with somany issues in that country.
You faced so many topics andand you came out always one
(00:49):
level above, above, above, solet's talk about?
What is the?
The biggest event, the biggestissue you ever had, and how did
you turn it from uncertaintyinto an opportunity?
Speaker 2 (01:11):
Yes, Stefan, I think this is exactly the right word
the uncertainty.
Because, as you know, theautomotive market, not only in
China, but also in Germany andthe world, is at the moment on
the edge of survive or die.
So this is basically what youheard about China.
It's true, it's a bloody redocean here and it's only going
(01:31):
over price reductions to sellyour cars.
So we, as a or me let me sayabout me, me as a OEM before 24
years in the OEM side, and thenI moved the past seven years to
the tier one side of thebusiness I have to say the
(01:53):
uncertainty at these times nowis probably the most big
challenge we had in the completeindustry since beginning of the
industry.
We know the Lehman Brotherscrisis in 2008-2009, then the
automotive crisis in 2015,.
Covid-19 in 1921.
(02:13):
So a lot of crisis, but nothingis compared to this crisis now.
So, out of my experience withthe most difficult situations we
are facing, experience with themost difficult situations we
are facing so we had majorinjuries or major incident in
one of our plants here in ChinaI have five plants.
One big incident happens thatstopped our production
(02:37):
completely, but we never stoppedthe customer also only one
minute.
So we continuously delivered toour customers, Okay.
Speaker 1 (02:50):
We are in this uncertain, complex environment.
It's automotive.
It's brutal right now.
Yeah, probably the industrythat has to transform the most
in any industry right now.
So what was your approach?
As being like, born german, butwith an internet mindset, and,
(03:13):
and, and living in china for 16years, can you describe in
detail so we understand?
There is maybe an opportunity.
Speaker 2 (03:25):
Yes, so, like you said, many people think this is
very risky and very dangerousand the situation is not to
handle.
Many people get confused or evenfear, anxious about that.
But I see it from another pointof view because, as you as a
coach knows that sometimes ithelps to step back from your own
(03:49):
position to see the currentsituation from another point of
view.
So I see also opportunitiesinside the current situation we
are in.
So, but how we do it, we are,you can, you can name it
restructuring, probably right.
So I come into the company witha very low performing
(04:10):
operations uh, culturaldifferences between german is a
german company and chineseemployees and leadership.
Um, there was more or less achaos as well, if you can
describe it like that, and therewas also the global
clarification and certificationsnot in place.
(04:30):
So how we did it and it wasvery easy from from now to see
backwards, but at that moment isdifficult.
So we put lean systems in place.
Legacy habits um, we, or I triedto give my team clarity even in
the chaos situation sometimes,and this is maybe what we german
(04:54):
are very proud of and very good, and we need to make it exactly
right.
It must be like this we need tofollow the process five minutes
earlier in the meeting andeverything must be point, point,
point.
But sorry, this is not what weneed in this, in this kind of
situation we are in at themoment.
We need, even though we haveonly maybe 80 percent, only 70
(05:17):
percent of clarity.
We need to make decisions.
So we do it, we do the decisionsand comment or I communicate my
decision to my people, to myteam for sure I have some
casualties on the way means somepeople don't accept, so okay, I
let them free.
But then new people come right,so and and go the way with us.
(05:39):
So, very good, and this is thetopic of why I'm here, why we
are here.
We have a bigger vision.
We want to have trust and alsothe transparency from top to
down, or not only top down byexecution.
You need to do that fully agree.
Speaker 1 (06:01):
Now let's go more in detail about the vision and the
way you communicate in a Chineseenvironment.
Speaker 2 (06:14):
Well, stefan, this is basically.
I think everybody can learnthat, but you have to have an
open mind.
So how I did was, first of all,if you don't speak the language
, you will have a problem toapproach the people.
(06:34):
So I'm not fluent in chinese,by far not, but it's enough to
communicate.
And if the people so thechinese colleagues and in my
company we have 1700 people,five foreigners, including three
, two top management and twodirectors and one on one expert,
so that's all so, and we haveto bring german product, quality
(06:57):
, german mindset, uh, into thiscommunity and make a fusion out
of it.
And you need the entrance pointand this is the language.
So if you try to speak, withyour limited language skills,
the mother tongue of the peopleyou are dealing with and I would
like to exclude china now Iwould like to say it's the
(07:18):
complete world, it's everywhere.
If you're in india, if inthailand, if you are in america,
okay, for us more easy becauseit's english, right.
But if you go to roman orsomething like this, if you try
to learn their mother language,then you can also approach these
people better.
And for the vision it's aboutbe clear what is the company
standing for?
What are you standing for?
(07:39):
As a leader?
I would like to say I'm aleader.
I'm not the manager For sure.
I'm not the manager for sure.
I'm sometimes the managerbecause I need to make the
decision, but I am more acoaching approached leader.
So I try to generate color.
Speaker 1 (07:54):
Yeah yeah, our stereotype about chinese is from
the past.
You know, it's like you have totell them everything and then
they are like robots and do what?
No, I don't think that's trueany longer.
So what is the mindset you haveto deal with, and how can you
kind of combine the Germanmindset with the Chinese mindset
(08:19):
?
Speaker 2 (08:22):
So you said the very interesting point, the
stereotype of the Chinese people.
Right, and the Chinese has thestereotype of the Germans for
sure.
So there's Weisswurst andLederhosen, yes, so this is the
typical German stereotype forChinese people.
So as it's not true for everyGerman, for some it's still
(08:47):
valid.
So also the Chinese top-downapproach.
So they are very hierarchyhearing.
It's still in place for somepeople, but there are also some
individuals that are not in thisway.
So, for example, I have greatleaders in my team who really
worked with German companiesover a decade or two decades
(09:08):
already.
So they decide to come to Montabecause they would like to come
to us to work with me togetheras their leader.
They are not coming because ofour name.
They are not coming because wehave a good product.
They are coming because theyfeel treasured and they can
develop their own mindset.
So and for this you need thevision on how your way looks
(09:32):
like, the why- is.
Is that the young generation ofthe Chinese, or is it even true
for the older generation,opening for that approach, for
being treasured and yeah this isa very tricky question, because
it's not the young and not theold, it's the middle generation,
(09:53):
it's the, the generation thatare born, let me say, around
1985 yes this.
This generation is still in thisMao Chairman, mao's mindset,
but with the opening of Chinaand then the blooming in the 90s
(10:14):
and early 2000s, they have theinternational mindset.
So they are the people who arethe broader mind.
The old generation they arehierarchy and the younger
generation, they are hierarchyand the younger generation.
Nowadays they are also.
If I go to the shop floor andthere's just a 21, 22-year-old
student, start work.
They're both in front of you.
(10:35):
I say hey, hey, hey, come on,I'm the boss here, but you don't
need to do that.
So it's interesting to see.
Very good question, by the way.
Speaker 1 (10:45):
Now, what are the three core factors of the
Chinese workplace?
What is the approach that webelieve it's pragmatic and it's
fast and it's pragmatic and it'sfast and it's a growth mindset.
(11:09):
But what do you think?
What are those three coreelements that we could now focus
on to explore more in depth?
Speaker 2 (11:21):
First of all, the most important thing for sure is
the salary.
I mean, this is clear, this iswhy we also go to work.
But also the same amount oflevel is the sounds stupid, but
it's the food.
So in Chinese companies inChina, you usually offer free
(11:44):
meals for the people.
So they get lunch, they getbreakfast, they get dinner,
maybe a midnight snack,depending on when they are
working.
Speaker 1 (11:53):
Yes.
Speaker 2 (11:54):
So and then they are very in Germany we say fleißig
they are very engaged in this,what they are doing.
So you will seldom find someonewho stops nine to five, and
this is what you know in europefrom all this newspaper it's 996
(12:14):
yeah, this nine hours from nineto nine and then 12 hours from
nine to nine and then six days,sometimes it's even in seven
days.
And from my own experience whenwe had this incident of one of
our plans in late or earlyaugust last year until early
(12:34):
october, so probably four monthsI worked 100 hours a week plus
one sleep, only two hours a weekone.
Speaker 1 (12:47):
Sleep only two hours a week.
Yeah, because that's kind of acommitment that's crazy.
Speaker 2 (12:49):
Yes, but this is also what my people are doing.
You know this is I.
I am a role master, for forthem, they are the role model.
So if the boss is staying inthe company and work with them
hand in hand to solve theproblems, they are also even
more engaged.
And this is probably also fromthis hierarchy's thinking.
Some people not leave beforeyou leave.
Speaker 1 (13:11):
Yeah, that reminds me of the early days of the now
crazy guy from california, whenhe launched three and he was in
production hell, he slept on theshop floor for three hours
every day.
Speaker 2 (13:24):
So it's yes, so this was the first two weeks after
the incident that happens, yes,and actually my wife come to
visit me and not I go back hometo visit her.
So I mean, this is also acommitment of the family.
And this is the third point Iwould like to mention to regard
to your question.
The family is also veryimportant, even though the young
(13:45):
chinese people they don't havefamily right, so they are
earning the money to build afamily.
But the people like I mentionedthis 80, 85 born ages they are,
they have a family andeverything like this, and very
seldom the family give themstress if they work overtime or
something like this okay, Iunderstand.
Speaker 1 (14:07):
Now.
It's like, um, it's almost like, if you understand well the
environment you're in, you adaptthat environment, you know.
So they don't have to changeculturally.
You know, they feel, they feelwelcome, they feel well and they
feel yes, like you say, whichis which great, yes, understand,
(14:29):
yeah, just under.
Then, yeah, you're not ingermany, you're in china.
I, I think that's obvious.
Now, how come that in theautomotive industry in china now
, by the way, by way, byd is nowlisted number six on the world
ranking as a car manufacturer,so not far behind Toyota and
(14:50):
Volkswagen anymore.
But how come that they are ableto have development cycles down
from 36 to 24 and even maybe 12months?
Down from 36 to 24 and evenmaybe 12 months?
How can they?
I think you described, while webuilt one airport in Berlin,
(15:20):
they built 80.
What makes them fast, pragmatic, engaged and execution strong?
What is it?
Speaker 2 (15:30):
Yes, so out of my work experience with the Chinese
OEMs here but, by the way, nowVolkswagen, bmw and
Mercedes-Benz Daimler truck isalso in China they changed their
mindset from this traditionalgerman kind of stuff building
around the car to try to, tomerge to the and you know the ev
(15:51):
is very strong in china to theev things.
Well, when in china they arebuilding the vehicle around the
system, I mean they have theplatform and then they're
building around.
So you mentioned BYD, right?
Yes, so if you sit in the BYD,it's like you sit in the VW.
If you sit in Golf or you sitin the Passat or you sit in the
(16:13):
Touareg, everything is in theright, in the same place, the
buttons, okay, sometimes alittle bit wider, a little bit
taller, depending on theinterior you buy, or you have
different displays or whatever.
But actually you know, okay,I'm an fw, so they are doing the
same stuff, but they'rebuilding around the system.
You mentioned also the airport.
(16:35):
So it's all about scale, the,the.
The matter is scale in china,so in germ, if we buy two
airports, they are lookingcompletely different, because
two completely different globalgeneral contractor will build
this kind of stuff, right, twodesign institutes will make the
fancy stuff In China.
(16:56):
It's basically more or less allthe same and only the cover is
different.
So it means they can scale veryeasy.
Sometimes in China it takes along time to make a decision
this is similar to us but ifit's made, then it's executed in
(17:16):
light speed.
This is what you see on thesefancy TikTok videos when they
build a bridge over a weekendright Beijing or where it was.
We talked about COVID before.
So the hospitals, yeah.
So over seven days they built a1,000-bed hospital.
Speaker 1 (17:34):
So I mean, let's be honest, even if BMW, mercedes,
audi now changes its brand andtry to become like Chinese, we
can never become like Chinesebecause our cost of
manufacturing a car is just somuch higher.
Yes, now when they turn, youknow, when they design a car
(18:01):
based on a software and put somewheels around and are fast
executors and scale.
This is typically what youthink about americans so so what
is our opportunity in germany?
uh, and I'm saying, you know wehave the, probably we have the
(18:23):
brightest minds on engineering.
Still I'm sure.
Yes, still still, yes, but itlooks like that we need a
slightly different mindset, adifferent approach.
Yes, and the one that isbecoming Chinese, but what is
your experience?
What was it?
Is it the combination?
(18:43):
What is?
What do we need to learn fromthem?
No, your experience, no.
What was it?
Is it the combination?
What do we need to learn fromthem?
And how do we, yes, to reallyleverage our strength?
Speaker 2 (18:55):
Yes, so the thing is, I was pleased and very, very
honored to meet Rudolf Scharpinglike five, six weeks ago here
in Shanghai, and we had ameeting with him.
(19:17):
He's on the road, yeah, yeah,yeah, yeah, he's a consulting
company.
He's around and we have thesame topic.
We have the same topic.
So how we can make Germany orthe German products or the
German companies great againsounds very fashion, because
this guy with the fancyhairstyle there from America say
(19:39):
the same thing about hiscountry.
But he said, and this is reallyand I think this hits the nail
on the head in Germany we havethe great mind and the still the
best ground engineering andscientists for a lot of things,
(20:00):
from automotive, medicine,everything absolutely true, but
the execution is the problem.
And he said and I now I quotehim less talking, more doing so.
This is what we are doing inchina here.
So we are eager and, like Isaid in the beginning, if we
only know 50-60% of the of thewhole picture, but it's
(20:24):
necessary to make a decisionbecause, out of urgency, because
we cannot wait, we do adecision instead of wait maybe
four, five, six hours or one dayto get to 80-90% yeah, highly
interesting.
Speaker 1 (20:41):
Now I figure myself being in your team.
You know we hear an environment, uncertain environment we have
a lot of pressure on cost ordevelopment times.
And now I'm used as a germanengineer.
I'm used to cc my boss and hisboss and get a response, or if I
can do this or whatever.
(21:01):
I'm sorry for stereotyping,maybe different in times.
I heard about this in somecompanies in Germany.
So how can they dare to be moreentrepreneurial?
Is it in their gene, is it themindset, or is it an allowance
(21:24):
or an empowerment fromleadership?
Speaker 2 (21:28):
Well, this is first of all for the small decisions.
This is empowerment for thedaily running the business to
ensure the production.
For the big topics like thisincident right, there's no way
around this need to go to us, tothe sea level, otherwise the
complete company is on risk.
So you, you need to find inchina the right people for the
(21:51):
right job.
This is first and mostimportant.
And then you need to empowerthem.
But these 100 plus hours perweek is not coming because they
cannot make a decision right, orI don't empower them Absolutely
.
Speaker 1 (22:10):
I mean Sebastian, but these are the same concepts
senior executives know inGermany.
So why is there still adifference in execution, or in
speed, or in being pragmatic?
What does it need to adapt?
Speaker 2 (22:31):
For us Germans yeah.
Speaker 1 (22:35):
In general.
No, I mean, we are in theEuropean environment here.
Yeah, I'm a German.
Yes, of course.
Speaker 2 (22:46):
Let me phrase a question to you.
Are you getting nervous, angryif your counterpart is 10, 15
minutes late to a meeting?
Speaker 1 (22:57):
Probably 10, 15 minutes late to a meeting,
probably.
Speaker 2 (23:06):
At least I'm questioning what happened.
But there was a sense ofirritation in the room.
So do I 15 years ago or 16years ago, now, I don't really
care, because I know they willcome.
I know they have something todo and if they not come I will
call them and then they willcome or they say okay.
(23:28):
So it's a kind of also aflexibility from our side, and
this is the building the bridgesbetween the two cultures,
because this is very, verydifferent.
Yeah, so if I say I will comesoon means in china completely
different thing, like in german,for example.
Right, so we can we can put thetime behind it, but here it's
different.
But back to the question of ofthe, for the, for the, for the
(23:51):
german oems.
Right, they should not changethe, the, let me say the spine,
the ground where they're comingfrom.
Because if you drive a BYD orif you drive an Audi even though
the price Audi is also underhigh pressure, so they need to
(24:14):
reduce the prices here but ifyou drive these cars you feel
obviously different, right so?
But is this the question forthe young generation who are
buying now a car?
No, for them is, in theconnection, the connectivity.
The most important thing it'snot so much the experience of
driving from the road feeling,from the noises of the vehicle,
(24:39):
it's more the connectivity.
Speaker 1 (24:45):
I mean, if I put myself into the position of BMW,
for instance, I have thebrightest engineers on this
planet.
I know how to build a car.
We have a fantastic product butwe can sell it at the price we
(25:07):
still sell in Europe.
Now, would working more hours,do I mean?
The solution seems like, yeah,we have to become faster at less
cost and turn more towards theinterconnectivity of cars and
(25:32):
build and create values andservices around this.
I mean, in the last part, wecould probably, you know,
achieve, but I don't see.
I don't see from, or maybe fromyour experience.
You know you are under thatpressure.
You know your head board ingermany is under tremendous
(25:53):
pressure.
You have to deliver in china toOEMs that come from Europe or
Germany.
Where does it lead towards?
Speaker 2 (26:08):
Where can you see, from your experience, a way
forward?
If we talk about BMW, vw, audi,mercedes, the traditional OEMs,
they had great times in China.
So why?
Because they are premium forthe Chinese.
So the people who have money at10 years ago, they buy this
kind of brands as more expensiveas better.
But who bought?
(26:30):
BYD at that time was the farmerfrom the countryside that don't
have so much money, and this wasalso the quality level.
So BYD learned a lot, a lot,and you can see this on the
vehicles and you can see onYouTube a lot of videos about
the tests.
So they did a great jobpartially.
(26:55):
So what is for the German OEMsmaybe most important is stop
this over engineering, because alot of things that is inside
the vehicle nobody needs.
For example, I mean automaticspeed control yes, okay, it's
nearly all cars in China, but Ivery seldom see someone who use
(27:17):
it.
Air conditioning will be turnedoff and open the window.
I mean, air conditioning isvery important, don't take it
away.
But Spaltmaße, so the distancebetween the two parts on the car
, it's not really matter if youhave a 3 millimeter or 2.5
millimeter, nobody really caresin China for that.
(27:39):
But these are all these kind ofhidden costs.
That increases the prices.
Plus I talk now about my OEMexperience overestimated and
over also kind of engineeredtest cycles.
Who needs 150,000 kilometertest in China when most of the
(28:01):
people never will drive theircar for 50,000 kilometers, right
?
So I mean yes, then this isalso the difference to Tesla and
to the other BYDs and NIOs andis also very famous in Europe.
They do not really care toomuch for this long-term road
(28:21):
tests.
By the way, nio is more likeAudi, so they are on the higher
price end and you feel itdirectly on the vehicle when BYD
is still the low cost one.
And, as we discussed before,they are also running now into
trouble because they have areduction in their volumes at
(28:44):
the moment to face.
So they stopped one shift inseveral plants and they stopped
the investment into the future.
So also the reality is comingto them now.
Speaker 1 (28:53):
Absolutely Now to kind of start finishing our
podcast.
What are the three keyquestions about leadership we
should executives everywhere,but particularly also in Europe
(29:14):
with business in China.
What are the three corequestions now they need to ask
to thrive in uncertainty in thisenvironment.
Speaker 2 (29:32):
I would like to turn it from a question to messages,
if you allow, to messages, ifyou allow.
So I would like to say, becauseI think you can ask questions,
but this is the coachingapproach.
I would like to be moreadvisory now for the people who
are listening and interested inthese topics.
(29:54):
Yeah, you're an expert, you canadvise.
You should challenge the statusquo, because this is what I do
every day.
Is this what we are doing today?
Right and not stick for sureyou have a plan somehow, but is
the plan valid?
So challenge every day thestatus quo, and this
(30:15):
relentlessly about thecircumstances and this
relentlessly about thecircumstances.
Speaker 1 (30:21):
Now may I just jump right into because, challenging
the status quo.
I probably need more detailbecause my experience they have
controlling everywhere, theyhave KPIs everywhere, so they
are over control.
I believe so.
They are over control, Ibelieve so.
They probably think wechallenge ourselves every day,
(30:44):
every single day, on cost, onquality, on delivery.
So what does this guy mean?
Speaker 2 (30:56):
What part needs to be challenged?
Well, we Germans say and thiswas my experience when I go back
to germany, uh, several yearsago, for a very short period,
the people say to me why Ishould change.
I do this 15 years and I, I wasvery successful and I'm still
am.
So then I ask one very simplequestion and most of the people
(31:19):
cannot answer.
And this was yes, you did 15years, great.
But who tells you that you didthe best, who say that there is
no other solution to the problem?
Why you think you should notchange what you are doing for
(31:39):
the past 15 years?
Maybe it was not 100% correct.
Speaker 1 (31:43):
So, okay, I see two elements.
One is focusing on could havedone better, which is the past
focus, but the second element ismore to bring me up to be the
(32:04):
better and the best version inthe next 15 years.
So this is challenging themindset.
It's not about I've done this.
We've done this, we weresuccessful.
We were successful.
Some of my clients, a chairman,once said, stefan, the biggest
(32:25):
trap is success because you getfat.
Exactly, people say, yeah, I'lljust do what you want.
Jeff Bezos calls it in Amazonalways have a first day approach
, day one approach.
Yeah, be always like kind ofnew.
So it's like uh, what I hear islike, uh, be willing to learn,
(32:50):
be willing to check if whatyou're doing is is still
relevant in the new setting.
Speaker 2 (32:57):
Yes, exactly.
And also if we come back to thismindset change, I think in this
I mean you can change a programin the machine, you can change
the design of the part, you caneven change how you build a car
right the system around the caror into the car or the car
(33:19):
around the system but what thebiggest challenge is really the
mindset change, and I said thisto my board nearly one year ago.
I tell them we are focusing onmindset change and this mindset
change is not a 100-meter sprint, it's more a triple Ironman.
(33:41):
Absolutely, and I think this isvery, very on point here.
Speaker 1 (33:46):
I think you know this is the core issue now how can
we transform?
And now, from your experiencebeing in that environment, how
do you lead in thesetransformational times?
How can you help people?
Speaker 2 (34:09):
Because once you ask them can you do.
Speaker 1 (34:11):
you know you have to mirror yourself, your approach
to what if it's going to berelevant in five or 10 or 15
years and most people I knowthey step out of the comfort
zone, they start learning,sometimes the anxiety zone, so
they get anxious a little bit.
So what is your approach abouthelping build a good environment
(34:37):
for people to want to change?
Maybe?
Speaker 2 (34:44):
build a good environment for people to want
to change?
Maybe, yes, so, first of all,we all face this kind of
uncertainties, um, and also forsure I'm I'm a human right.
I'm also facing anxious aboutsituations of fear, of stress.
But if, if I try to bring outclarity in this moment that is
really focusing on this issue atthis moment, and I translate
(35:08):
this to the language to thepeople who are involved.
They maybe don't see the wholepicture, but I bring the clarity
for their field of this, whatthey have to do, and offering my
help.
So I never feel stressed out, Inever feel burned out.
By the way, burnout in China isnot available by default.
(35:34):
So first of all, create claritythat they can work.
Speaker 1 (35:42):
What kind of clarity?
Can you be more precise?
Like, give an example, okay.
Speaker 2 (35:53):
Okay, we are now, like you mentioned, in the
restructuring phase, so I getone project management office
position for this to control andlead the project over the next
three years, and we researchinside our company.
But they all are busy, as youcan imagine.
Because I just bring up acomplete new team there,
(36:15):
combined from old and newpeoples, yeah, um, so they are
busy with their sense themselvesat the moment.
So I decide I will get a freshmaster student, just graduate
two weeks ago, for this position, and she is a woman.
She says I don't know if I cando that.
(36:35):
I say no worries, I believefrom your CV, from your
experience on university andalso some job experience already
, you can do that.
These are the steps.
I will guide you.
I will stay next to you.
Then she asked me why you arenot doing this by yourself.
Good question, because my timeis also limited, right, but my
(37:00):
time is limited.
I need to look for strategytopics.
I have five plans right.
I need to really balance my timethat is also like yours 24
hours a day.
So to show her okay, okay, thisis the way to create the
templates talk with theconsulting company to make very
(37:22):
clear what we expect and alsomake very clear to here to her.
You can call 24 7.
If you have a problem, I amhere, I'm the steering committee
, I will help you to make it.
And if somebody is notperforming, because as a project
manager, for sure you don'thave power, you are the tiger
(37:43):
without teeth.
So this means you need to, youneed to motivate the people, do
something, and for sure you canborrow my power.
But this should be the laststep.
But you can ask me as yourcoach, and so this I do with all
my people on the shop floor.
Speaker 1 (38:04):
So they are free to go straight to you to ask for
help.
Speaker 2 (38:10):
Yes, everyone, even the cleaning staff or the worker
on the shop floor.
Speaker 1 (38:16):
So if you are talking about, leadership, because
leadership is preso.
Speaker 2 (38:21):
When we started last year July, no May I started in
May oh God time flies Iestablished a so-called lunch
with the leaders.
So in this lunch, when I visitall the plants, the supervisor,
(38:42):
engineer level and also someemployee who are willing, are
invited to have lunch with meand my leadership team.
So my other two C-level I meannot their manager.
They are excluded.
So the management of the plantis excluded from this lunch.
So I take one hour.
(39:03):
Whoa, you know where it goes,right?
Yeah, so I take one hour onlyfor them to have a lunch with
them, and we are not taking thecanteen food we are ordering
from outside.
Sometimes it's pizza, sometimesit's Korean rice spaghetti.
Speaker 1 (39:26):
I think they can deliver that lunch like five,
ten, depending on this.
Speaker 2 (39:32):
it depends on the size of the plant, right?
So let's say, in average it'sabout 10 to 20 people, and how
do they and then we sit together.
Speaker 1 (39:44):
Yeah, how do they use this format?
Are they approaching you to sayhi Sebastian, I have a problem
here and there, can you help?
Or how does it work?
Speaker 2 (39:58):
And you see, now the circle is closing slowly,
because in the beginning youasked me oh, in the middle is
three major topics in China forthe environment, and this is
food.
So for sure, in the first one,two times when we started in
each plant, it was a little bitshaky because, oh, the big boss
(40:20):
come now and have lunch with meand I need to talk with him.
I cannot speak english right yesso, um, but this was very
interesting to see because thenI start in my chinese to talk
with them and then somebodyspeak up.
I can translate, may I boss, Isay, oh for sure, let's help,
(40:41):
let's work together.
Right, to be approachable, andthe first two, two times was not
much communication for sure.
Environmental topics yeah, thefood can be better, the toilet
cleaners could be better, sobasically what you have if you
have a big plant of four or fivehundred people.
But interesting is you see thechange.
(41:04):
And now they are actuallywaiting for this lunch with
leaders, so, and they even comeup two times.
So before I go to my, my, my,my majority leave, um, they come
up and say, sebastian, I wouldlike to have a different food,
because every time the same.
I say I think I don't recognizeit.
(41:25):
Thank you very much.
Let's, let's order somedifferent things.
Yeah, so we make a smallquestionnaire what you like?
Speaker 1 (41:31):
okay pizza.
Speaker 2 (41:32):
Okay, we want a lot of Italian food and lot of was
there?
Well, some, some, somespaghetti, and you know.
And then we have a very goodconversation by lunch, but not
very official with agenda.
Now maintenance, yeah, yeah,and sometimes you need to,
sometimes you need to talk first.
(41:52):
I use this also as a kind of amini town hall meeting to inform
them what's happening in thecompany, what's happening in our
other facility that is 2000kilometers far away, maybe Right
, so I also utilize this kind ofevents to share them what's
happening in one I don't want tosay my company in our company.
(42:13):
And so Sebastian, yes, I don'twant to in our company, and
Sebastian, yes, I think.
Speaker 1 (42:19):
Tell me if I'm wrong, but to finish and to close, and
what I learned from ourconversation it is not that much
about the overall strategy,maybe about the differences and
commonalities of germans andchinese, but I learned from your
approach, from your experiencebeing in both markets, in both
(42:42):
cultures, being there for 16 oreven more years it's you can put
your heart to the products, butyou can also put your heart to
the people, and that's maybe acommon language everybody
understands and it feels likeyou are creating a safe place
(43:06):
where people want to belong,want to add whatever their
strength is, and it's more aquestion about mindset, it's
more a question about leadership, it's more, you know, releasing
all the potential from thatpeople.
And this is, to me, the essencethat I get from our conversation
(43:31):
, which gives me kind of nothope, but which gives me an
opening, a gateway to come upwith great solutions in
leadership that will helpeverybody bring out his best and
(43:51):
enjoy it.
That's even better If you'reworking 50 or more hours.
You at least what you want.
You want to enjoy this and notfeel threatened or whatever.
So, yes, anything to add fromyour side that is not yet put
(44:12):
into the right light or focus.
Speaker 2 (44:17):
Yeah, so you said it very, very correct what's a
company?
And this is also one of theworkshops I hold with my teams,
because I'm also givingworkshops and some mentorings to
the people what is a company?
Is the building the company,the machines or the products?
(44:38):
And it's very surprisingly,very few people say no, actually
the people is the company.
Speaker 1 (44:46):
Yes.
Speaker 2 (44:50):
So, and I think this should be, this should be the
the, the thing, and the futuredoes not belong to the guys who
make everything cautiously andvery accurate over engineering,
but also, and I think almost andI mean you mentioned this crazy
guy in America who sleep on thefloor.
I think he did it just weeksago again, right, probably.
(45:11):
I think he did it just weeksago again, right, probably.
It's about to be bold enough tomake a decision and go ahead,
because if you make a decision,you make maybe a mistake, but if
(45:36):
you don't make a decision.
Speaker 1 (45:38):
You already did the mistake.
Fantastic conversations, lotsof insights.
I'd like to carry this one on,maybe in a year's time to find
out what's more to learn aboutit.
Speaker 2 (45:55):
For the time being, thank you, sebastian for being
on the show and wishing you allgood travels, safe travels in
your ventures.
Thank you, stefan.
Yes, and hopefully we can meetus very soon in Munich or
somewhere around absolutelyanytime, 24 7 okay let's see
what's my schedule telling usokay, bye.
Welcome Sebastian Schierisch, a senior executive,
as a German working in China forover 15 years.
Thank you, sebastian, for beingpart of the show for today.
Speaker 2 (00:18):
Hey, Stefan, hi Nice to have you also here in China
on my screen and welcome to theInternational Mindset.
Speaker 1 (00:28):
Podcast for today, I would like to say yeah,
absolutely, and this is ourtopic.
What can we learn from China inthese days in the automotive
market?
And you have been dealt with somany issues in that country.
You faced so many topics andand you came out always one
(00:49):
level above, above, above, solet's talk about?
What is the?
The biggest event, the biggestissue you ever had, and how did
you turn it from uncertaintyinto an opportunity?
Speaker 2 (01:11):
Yes, Stefan, I think this is exactly the right word
the uncertainty.
Because, as you know, theautomotive market, not only in
China, but also in Germany andthe world, is at the moment on
the edge of survive or die.
So this is basically what youheard about China.
It's true, it's a bloody redocean here and it's only going
(01:31):
over price reductions to sellyour cars.
So we, as a or me let me sayabout me, me as a OEM before 24
years in the OEM side, and thenI moved the past seven years to
the tier one side of thebusiness I have to say the
(01:53):
uncertainty at these times nowis probably the most big
challenge we had in the completeindustry since beginning of the
industry.
We know the Lehman Brotherscrisis in 2008-2009, then the
automotive crisis in 2015,.
Covid-19 in 1921.
(02:13):
So a lot of crisis, but nothingis compared to this crisis now.
So, out of my experience withthe most difficult situations we
are facing, experience with themost difficult situations we
are facing so we had majorinjuries or major incident in
one of our plants here in ChinaI have five plants.
One big incident happens thatstopped our production
(02:37):
completely, but we never stoppedthe customer also only one
minute.
So we continuously delivered toour customers, Okay.
Speaker 1 (02:50):
We are in this uncertain, complex environment.
It's automotive.
It's brutal right now.
Yeah, probably the industrythat has to transform the most
in any industry right now.
So what was your approach?
As being like, born german, butwith an internet mindset, and,
(03:13):
and, and living in china for 16years, can you describe in
detail so we understand?
There is maybe an opportunity.
Speaker 2 (03:25):
Yes, so, like you said, many people think this is
very risky and very dangerousand the situation is not to
handle.
Many people get confused or evenfear, anxious about that.
But I see it from another pointof view because, as you as a
coach knows that sometimes ithelps to step back from your own
(03:49):
position to see the currentsituation from another point of
view.
So I see also opportunitiesinside the current situation we
are in.
So, but how we do it, we are,you can, you can name it
restructuring, probably right.
So I come into the company witha very low performing
(04:10):
operations uh, culturaldifferences between german is a
german company and chineseemployees and leadership.
Um, there was more or less achaos as well, if you can
describe it like that, and therewas also the global
clarification and certificationsnot in place.
(04:30):
So how we did it and it wasvery easy from from now to see
backwards, but at that moment isdifficult.
So we put lean systems in place.
Legacy habits um, we, or I triedto give my team clarity even in
the chaos situation sometimes,and this is maybe what we german
(04:54):
are very proud of and very good, and we need to make it exactly
right.
It must be like this we need tofollow the process five minutes
earlier in the meeting andeverything must be point, point,
point.
But sorry, this is not what weneed in this, in this kind of
situation we are in at themoment.
We need, even though we haveonly maybe 80 percent, only 70
(05:17):
percent of clarity.
We need to make decisions.
So we do it, we do the decisionsand comment or I communicate my
decision to my people, to myteam for sure I have some
casualties on the way means somepeople don't accept, so okay, I
let them free.
But then new people come right,so and and go the way with us.
(05:39):
So, very good, and this is thetopic of why I'm here, why we
are here.
We have a bigger vision.
We want to have trust and alsothe transparency from top to
down, or not only top down byexecution.
You need to do that fully agree.
Speaker 1 (06:01):
Now let's go more in detail about the vision and the
way you communicate in a Chineseenvironment.
Speaker 2 (06:14):
Well, stefan, this is basically.
I think everybody can learnthat, but you have to have an
open mind.
So how I did was, first of all,if you don't speak the language
, you will have a problem toapproach the people.
(06:34):
So I'm not fluent in chinese,by far not, but it's enough to
communicate.
And if the people so thechinese colleagues and in my
company we have 1700 people,five foreigners, including three
, two top management and twodirectors and one on one expert,
so that's all so, and we haveto bring german product, quality
(06:57):
, german mindset, uh, into thiscommunity and make a fusion out
of it.
And you need the entrance pointand this is the language.
So if you try to speak, withyour limited language skills,
the mother tongue of the peopleyou are dealing with and I would
like to exclude china now Iwould like to say it's the
(07:18):
complete world, it's everywhere.
If you're in india, if inthailand, if you are in america,
okay, for us more easy becauseit's english, right.
But if you go to roman orsomething like this, if you try
to learn their mother language,then you can also approach these
people better.
And for the vision it's aboutbe clear what is the company
standing for?
What are you standing for?
(07:39):
As a leader?
I would like to say I'm aleader.
I'm not the manager For sure.
I'm not the manager for sure.
I'm sometimes the managerbecause I need to make the
decision, but I am more acoaching approached leader.
So I try to generate color.
Speaker 1 (07:54):
Yeah yeah, our stereotype about chinese is from
the past.
You know, it's like you have totell them everything and then
they are like robots and do what?
No, I don't think that's trueany longer.
So what is the mindset you haveto deal with, and how can you
kind of combine the Germanmindset with the Chinese mindset
(08:19):
?
Speaker 2 (08:22):
So you said the very interesting point, the
stereotype of the Chinese people.
Right, and the Chinese has thestereotype of the Germans for
sure.
So there's Weisswurst andLederhosen, yes, so this is the
typical German stereotype forChinese people.
So as it's not true for everyGerman, for some it's still
(08:47):
valid.
So also the Chinese top-downapproach.
So they are very hierarchyhearing.
It's still in place for somepeople, but there are also some
individuals that are not in thisway.
So, for example, I have greatleaders in my team who really
worked with German companiesover a decade or two decades
(09:08):
already.
So they decide to come to Montabecause they would like to come
to us to work with me togetheras their leader.
They are not coming because ofour name.
They are not coming because wehave a good product.
They are coming because theyfeel treasured and they can
develop their own mindset.
So and for this you need thevision on how your way looks
(09:32):
like, the why- is.
Is that the young generation ofthe Chinese, or is it even true
for the older generation,opening for that approach, for
being treasured and yeah this isa very tricky question, because
it's not the young and not theold, it's the middle generation,
(09:53):
it's the, the generation thatare born, let me say, around
1985 yes this.
This generation is still in thisMao Chairman, mao's mindset,
but with the opening of Chinaand then the blooming in the 90s
(10:14):
and early 2000s, they have theinternational mindset.
So they are the people who arethe broader mind.
The old generation they arehierarchy and the younger
generation, they are hierarchyand the younger generation.
Nowadays they are also.
If I go to the shop floor andthere's just a 21, 22-year-old
student, start work.
They're both in front of you.
(10:35):
I say hey, hey, hey, come on,I'm the boss here, but you don't
need to do that.
So it's interesting to see.
Very good question, by the way.
Speaker 1 (10:45):
Now, what are the three core factors of the
Chinese workplace?
What is the approach that webelieve it's pragmatic and it's
fast and it's pragmatic and it'sfast and it's a growth mindset.
(11:09):
But what do you think?
What are those three coreelements that we could now focus
on to explore more in depth?
Speaker 2 (11:21):
First of all, the most important thing for sure is
the salary.
I mean, this is clear, this iswhy we also go to work.
But also the same amount oflevel is the sounds stupid, but
it's the food.
So in Chinese companies inChina, you usually offer free
(11:44):
meals for the people.
So they get lunch, they getbreakfast, they get dinner,
maybe a midnight snack,depending on when they are
working.
Speaker 1 (11:53):
Yes.
Speaker 2 (11:54):
So and then they are very in Germany we say fleißig
they are very engaged in this,what they are doing.
So you will seldom find someonewho stops nine to five, and
this is what you know in europefrom all this newspaper it's 996
(12:14):
yeah, this nine hours from nineto nine and then 12 hours from
nine to nine and then six days,sometimes it's even in seven
days.
And from my own experience whenwe had this incident of one of
our plans in late or earlyaugust last year until early
(12:34):
october, so probably four monthsI worked 100 hours a week plus
one sleep, only two hours a weekone.
Speaker 1 (12:47):
Sleep only two hours a week.
Yeah, because that's kind of acommitment that's crazy.
Speaker 2 (12:49):
Yes, but this is also what my people are doing.
You know this is I.
I am a role master, for forthem, they are the role model.
So if the boss is staying inthe company and work with them
hand in hand to solve theproblems, they are also even
more engaged.
And this is probably also fromthis hierarchy's thinking.
Some people not leave beforeyou leave.
Speaker 1 (13:11):
Yeah, that reminds me of the early days of the now
crazy guy from california, whenhe launched three and he was in
production hell, he slept on theshop floor for three hours
every day.
Speaker 2 (13:24):
So it's yes, so this was the first two weeks after
the incident that happens, yes,and actually my wife come to
visit me and not I go back hometo visit her.
So I mean, this is also acommitment of the family.
And this is the third point Iwould like to mention to regard
to your question.
The family is also veryimportant, even though the young
(13:45):
chinese people they don't havefamily right, so they are
earning the money to build afamily.
But the people like I mentionedthis 80, 85 born ages they are,
they have a family andeverything like this, and very
seldom the family give themstress if they work overtime or
something like this okay, Iunderstand.
Speaker 1 (14:07):
Now.
It's like, um, it's almost like, if you understand well the
environment you're in, you adaptthat environment, you know.
So they don't have to changeculturally.
You know, they feel, they feelwelcome, they feel well and they
feel yes, like you say, whichis which great, yes, understand,
(14:29):
yeah, just under.
Then, yeah, you're not ingermany, you're in china.
I, I think that's obvious.
Now, how come that in theautomotive industry in china now
, by the way, by way, byd is nowlisted number six on the world
ranking as a car manufacturer,so not far behind Toyota and
(14:50):
Volkswagen anymore.
But how come that they are ableto have development cycles down
from 36 to 24 and even maybe 12months?
Down from 36 to 24 and evenmaybe 12 months?
How can they?
I think you described, while webuilt one airport in Berlin,
(15:20):
they built 80.
What makes them fast, pragmatic, engaged and execution strong?
What is it?
Speaker 2 (15:30):
Yes, so out of my work experience with the Chinese
OEMs here but, by the way, nowVolkswagen, bmw and
Mercedes-Benz Daimler truck isalso in China they changed their
mindset from this traditionalgerman kind of stuff building
around the car to try to, tomerge to the and you know the ev
(15:51):
is very strong in china to theev things.
Well, when in china they arebuilding the vehicle around the
system, I mean they have theplatform and then they're
building around.
So you mentioned BYD, right?
Yes, so if you sit in the BYD,it's like you sit in the VW.
If you sit in Golf or you sitin the Passat or you sit in the
(16:13):
Touareg, everything is in theright, in the same place, the
buttons, okay, sometimes alittle bit wider, a little bit
taller, depending on theinterior you buy, or you have
different displays or whatever.
But actually you know, okay,I'm an fw, so they are doing the
same stuff, but they'rebuilding around the system.
You mentioned also the airport.
(16:35):
So it's all about scale, the,the.
The matter is scale in china,so in germ, if we buy two
airports, they are lookingcompletely different, because
two completely different globalgeneral contractor will build
this kind of stuff, right, twodesign institutes will make the
fancy stuff In China.
(16:56):
It's basically more or less allthe same and only the cover is
different.
So it means they can scale veryeasy.
Sometimes in China it takes along time to make a decision
this is similar to us but ifit's made, then it's executed in
(17:16):
light speed.
This is what you see on thesefancy TikTok videos when they
build a bridge over a weekendright Beijing or where it was.
We talked about COVID before.
So the hospitals, yeah.
So over seven days they built a1,000-bed hospital.
Speaker 1 (17:34):
So I mean, let's be honest, even if BMW, mercedes,
audi now changes its brand andtry to become like Chinese, we
can never become like Chinesebecause our cost of
manufacturing a car is just somuch higher.
Yes, now when they turn, youknow, when they design a car
(18:01):
based on a software and put somewheels around and are fast
executors and scale.
This is typically what youthink about americans so so what
is our opportunity in germany?
uh, and I'm saying, you know wehave the, probably we have the
(18:23):
brightest minds on engineering.
Still I'm sure.
Yes, still still, yes, but itlooks like that we need a
slightly different mindset, adifferent approach.
Yes, and the one that isbecoming Chinese, but what is
your experience?
What was it?
Is it the combination?
(18:43):
What is?
What do we need to learn fromthem?
No, your experience, no.
What was it?
Is it the combination?
What do we need to learn fromthem?
And how do we, yes, to reallyleverage our strength?
Speaker 2 (18:55):
Yes, so the thing is, I was pleased and very, very
honored to meet Rudolf Scharpinglike five, six weeks ago here
in Shanghai, and we had ameeting with him.
(19:17):
He's on the road, yeah, yeah,yeah, yeah, he's a consulting
company.
He's around and we have thesame topic.
We have the same topic.
So how we can make Germany orthe German products or the
German companies great againsounds very fashion, because
this guy with the fancyhairstyle there from America say
(19:39):
the same thing about hiscountry.
But he said, and this is reallyand I think this hits the nail
on the head in Germany we havethe great mind and the still the
best ground engineering andscientists for a lot of things,
(20:00):
from automotive, medicine,everything absolutely true, but
the execution is the problem.
And he said and I now I quotehim less talking, more doing so.
This is what we are doing inchina here.
So we are eager and, like Isaid in the beginning, if we
only know 50-60% of the of thewhole picture, but it's
(20:24):
necessary to make a decisionbecause, out of urgency, because
we cannot wait, we do adecision instead of wait maybe
four, five, six hours or one dayto get to 80-90% yeah, highly
interesting.
Speaker 1 (20:41):
Now I figure myself being in your team.
You know we hear an environment, uncertain environment we have
a lot of pressure on cost ordevelopment times.
And now I'm used as a germanengineer.
I'm used to cc my boss and hisboss and get a response, or if I
can do this or whatever.
(21:01):
I'm sorry for stereotyping,maybe different in times.
I heard about this in somecompanies in Germany.
So how can they dare to be moreentrepreneurial?
Is it in their gene, is it themindset, or is it an allowance
(21:24):
or an empowerment fromleadership?
Speaker 2 (21:28):
Well, this is first of all for the small decisions.
This is empowerment for thedaily running the business to
ensure the production.
For the big topics like thisincident right, there's no way
around this need to go to us, tothe sea level, otherwise the
complete company is on risk.
So you, you need to find inchina the right people for the
(21:51):
right job.
This is first and mostimportant.
And then you need to empowerthem.
But these 100 plus hours perweek is not coming because they
cannot make a decision right, orI don't empower them Absolutely
.
Speaker 1 (22:10):
I mean Sebastian, but these are the same concepts
senior executives know inGermany.
So why is there still adifference in execution, or in
speed, or in being pragmatic?
What does it need to adapt?
Speaker 2 (22:31):
For us Germans yeah.
Speaker 1 (22:35):
In general.
No, I mean, we are in theEuropean environment here.
Yeah, I'm a German.
Yes, of course.
Speaker 2 (22:46):
Let me phrase a question to you.
Are you getting nervous, angryif your counterpart is 10, 15
minutes late to a meeting?
Speaker 1 (22:57):
Probably 10, 15 minutes late to a meeting,
probably.
Speaker 2 (23:06):
At least I'm questioning what happened.
But there was a sense ofirritation in the room.
So do I 15 years ago or 16years ago, now, I don't really
care, because I know they willcome.
I know they have something todo and if they not come I will
call them and then they willcome or they say okay.
(23:28):
So it's a kind of also aflexibility from our side, and
this is the building the bridgesbetween the two cultures,
because this is very, verydifferent.
Yeah, so if I say I will comesoon means in china completely
different thing, like in german,for example.
Right, so we can we can put thetime behind it, but here it's
different.
But back to the question of ofthe, for the, for the, for the
(23:51):
german oems.
Right, they should not changethe, the, let me say the spine,
the ground where they're comingfrom.
Because if you drive a BYD orif you drive an Audi even though
the price Audi is also underhigh pressure, so they need to
(24:14):
reduce the prices here but ifyou drive these cars you feel
obviously different, right so?
But is this the question forthe young generation who are
buying now a car?
No, for them is, in theconnection, the connectivity.
The most important thing it'snot so much the experience of
driving from the road feeling,from the noises of the vehicle,
(24:39):
it's more the connectivity.
Speaker 1 (24:45):
I mean, if I put myself into the position of BMW,
for instance, I have thebrightest engineers on this
planet.
I know how to build a car.
We have a fantastic product butwe can sell it at the price we
(25:07):
still sell in Europe.
Now, would working more hours,do I mean?
The solution seems like, yeah,we have to become faster at less
cost and turn more towards theinterconnectivity of cars and
(25:32):
build and create values andservices around this.
I mean, in the last part, wecould probably, you know,
achieve, but I don't see.
I don't see from, or maybe fromyour experience.
You know you are under thatpressure.
You know your head board ingermany is under tremendous
(25:53):
pressure.
You have to deliver in china toOEMs that come from Europe or
Germany.
Where does it lead towards?
Speaker 2 (26:08):
Where can you see, from your experience, a way
forward?
If we talk about BMW, vw, audi,mercedes, the traditional OEMs,
they had great times in China.
So why?
Because they are premium forthe Chinese.
So the people who have money at10 years ago, they buy this
kind of brands as more expensiveas better.
But who bought?
(26:30):
BYD at that time was the farmerfrom the countryside that don't
have so much money, and this wasalso the quality level.
So BYD learned a lot, a lot,and you can see this on the
vehicles and you can see onYouTube a lot of videos about
the tests.
So they did a great jobpartially.
(26:55):
So what is for the German OEMsmaybe most important is stop
this over engineering, because alot of things that is inside
the vehicle nobody needs.
For example, I mean automaticspeed control yes, okay, it's
nearly all cars in China, but Ivery seldom see someone who use
(27:17):
it.
Air conditioning will be turnedoff and open the window.
I mean, air conditioning isvery important, don't take it
away.
But Spaltmaße, so the distancebetween the two parts on the car
, it's not really matter if youhave a 3 millimeter or 2.5
millimeter, nobody really caresin China for that.
(27:39):
But these are all these kind ofhidden costs.
That increases the prices.
Plus I talk now about my OEMexperience overestimated and
over also kind of engineeredtest cycles.
Who needs 150,000 kilometertest in China when most of the
(28:01):
people never will drive theircar for 50,000 kilometers, right
?
So I mean yes, then this isalso the difference to Tesla and
to the other BYDs and NIOs andis also very famous in Europe.
They do not really care toomuch for this long-term road
(28:21):
tests.
By the way, nio is more likeAudi, so they are on the higher
price end and you feel itdirectly on the vehicle when BYD
is still the low cost one.
And, as we discussed before,they are also running now into
trouble because they have areduction in their volumes at
(28:44):
the moment to face.
So they stopped one shift inseveral plants and they stopped
the investment into the future.
So also the reality is comingto them now.
Speaker 1 (28:53):
Absolutely Now to kind of start finishing our
podcast.
What are the three keyquestions about leadership we
should executives everywhere,but particularly also in Europe
(29:14):
with business in China.
What are the three corequestions now they need to ask
to thrive in uncertainty in thisenvironment.
Speaker 2 (29:32):
I would like to turn it from a question to messages,
if you allow, to messages, ifyou allow.
So I would like to say, becauseI think you can ask questions,
but this is the coachingapproach.
I would like to be moreadvisory now for the people who
are listening and interested inthese topics.
(29:54):
Yeah, you're an expert, you canadvise.
You should challenge the statusquo, because this is what I do
every day.
Is this what we are doing today?
Right and not stick for sureyou have a plan somehow, but is
the plan valid?
So challenge every day thestatus quo, and this
(30:15):
relentlessly about thecircumstances and this
relentlessly about thecircumstances.
Speaker 1 (30:21):
Now may I just jump right into because, challenging
the status quo.
I probably need more detailbecause my experience they have
controlling everywhere, theyhave KPIs everywhere, so they
are over control.
I believe so.
They are over control, Ibelieve so.
They probably think wechallenge ourselves every day,
(30:44):
every single day, on cost, onquality, on delivery.
So what does this guy mean?
Speaker 2 (30:56):
What part needs to be challenged?
Well, we Germans say and thiswas my experience when I go back
to germany, uh, several yearsago, for a very short period,
the people say to me why Ishould change.
I do this 15 years and I, I wasvery successful and I'm still
am.
So then I ask one very simplequestion and most of the people
(31:19):
cannot answer.
And this was yes, you did 15years, great.
But who tells you that you didthe best, who say that there is
no other solution to the problem?
Why you think you should notchange what you are doing for
(31:39):
the past 15 years?
Maybe it was not 100% correct.
Speaker 1 (31:43):
So, okay, I see two elements.
One is focusing on could havedone better, which is the past
focus, but the second element ismore to bring me up to be the
(32:04):
better and the best version inthe next 15 years.
So this is challenging themindset.
It's not about I've done this.
We've done this, we weresuccessful.
We were successful.
Some of my clients, a chairman,once said, stefan, the biggest
(32:25):
trap is success because you getfat.
Exactly, people say, yeah, I'lljust do what you want.
Jeff Bezos calls it in Amazonalways have a first day approach
, day one approach.
Yeah, be always like kind ofnew.
So it's like uh, what I hear islike, uh, be willing to learn,
(32:50):
be willing to check if whatyou're doing is is still
relevant in the new setting.
Speaker 2 (32:57):
Yes, exactly.
And also if we come back to thismindset change, I think in this
I mean you can change a programin the machine, you can change
the design of the part, you caneven change how you build a car
right the system around the caror into the car or the car
(33:19):
around the system but what thebiggest challenge is really the
mindset change, and I said thisto my board nearly one year ago.
I tell them we are focusing onmindset change and this mindset
change is not a 100-meter sprint, it's more a triple Ironman.
(33:41):
Absolutely, and I think this isvery, very on point here.
Speaker 1 (33:46):
I think you know this is the core issue now how can
we transform?
And now, from your experiencebeing in that environment, how
do you lead in thesetransformational times?
How can you help people?
Speaker 2 (34:09):
Because once you ask them can you do.
Speaker 1 (34:11):
you know you have to mirror yourself, your approach
to what if it's going to berelevant in five or 10 or 15
years and most people I knowthey step out of the comfort
zone, they start learning,sometimes the anxiety zone, so
they get anxious a little bit.
So what is your approach abouthelping build a good environment
(34:37):
for people to want to change?
Maybe?
Speaker 2 (34:44):
build a good environment for people to want
to change?
Maybe, yes, so, first of all,we all face this kind of
uncertainties, um, and also forsure I'm I'm a human right.
I'm also facing anxious aboutsituations of fear, of stress.
But if, if I try to bring outclarity in this moment that is
really focusing on this issue atthis moment, and I translate
(35:08):
this to the language to thepeople who are involved.
They maybe don't see the wholepicture, but I bring the clarity
for their field of this, whatthey have to do, and offering my
help.
So I never feel stressed out, Inever feel burned out.
By the way, burnout in China isnot available by default.
(35:34):
So first of all, create claritythat they can work.
Speaker 1 (35:42):
What kind of clarity?
Can you be more precise?
Like, give an example, okay.
Speaker 2 (35:53):
Okay, we are now, like you mentioned, in the
restructuring phase, so I getone project management office
position for this to control andlead the project over the next
three years, and we researchinside our company.
But they all are busy, as youcan imagine.
Because I just bring up acomplete new team there,
(36:15):
combined from old and newpeoples, yeah, um, so they are
busy with their sense themselvesat the moment.
So I decide I will get a freshmaster student, just graduate
two weeks ago, for this position, and she is a woman.
She says I don't know if I cando that.
(36:35):
I say no worries, I believefrom your CV, from your
experience on university andalso some job experience already
, you can do that.
These are the steps.
I will guide you.
I will stay next to you.
Then she asked me why you arenot doing this by yourself.
Good question, because my timeis also limited, right, but my
(37:00):
time is limited.
I need to look for strategytopics.
I have five plans right.
I need to really balance my timethat is also like yours 24
hours a day.
So to show her okay, okay, thisis the way to create the
templates talk with theconsulting company to make very
(37:22):
clear what we expect and alsomake very clear to here to her.
You can call 24 7.
If you have a problem, I amhere, I'm the steering committee
, I will help you to make it.
And if somebody is notperforming, because as a project
manager, for sure you don'thave power, you are the tiger
(37:43):
without teeth.
So this means you need to, youneed to motivate the people, do
something, and for sure you canborrow my power.
But this should be the laststep.
But you can ask me as yourcoach, and so this I do with all
my people on the shop floor.
Speaker 1 (38:04):
So they are free to go straight to you to ask for
help.
Speaker 2 (38:10):
Yes, everyone, even the cleaning staff or the worker
on the shop floor.
Speaker 1 (38:16):
So if you are talking about, leadership, because
leadership is preso.
Speaker 2 (38:21):
When we started last year July, no May I started in
May oh God time flies Iestablished a so-called lunch
with the leaders.
So in this lunch, when I visitall the plants, the supervisor,
(38:42):
engineer level and also someemployee who are willing, are
invited to have lunch with meand my leadership team.
So my other two C-level I meannot their manager.
They are excluded.
So the management of the plantis excluded from this lunch.
So I take one hour.
(39:03):
Whoa, you know where it goes,right?
Yeah, so I take one hour onlyfor them to have a lunch with
them, and we are not taking thecanteen food we are ordering
from outside.
Sometimes it's pizza, sometimesit's Korean rice spaghetti.
Speaker 1 (39:26):
I think they can deliver that lunch like five,
ten, depending on this.
Speaker 2 (39:32):
it depends on the size of the plant, right?
So let's say, in average it'sabout 10 to 20 people, and how
do they and then we sit together.
Speaker 1 (39:44):
Yeah, how do they use this format?
Are they approaching you to sayhi Sebastian, I have a problem
here and there, can you help?
Or how does it work?
Speaker 2 (39:58):
And you see, now the circle is closing slowly,
because in the beginning youasked me oh, in the middle is
three major topics in China forthe environment, and this is
food.
So for sure, in the first one,two times when we started in
each plant, it was a little bitshaky because, oh, the big boss
(40:20):
come now and have lunch with meand I need to talk with him.
I cannot speak english right yesso, um, but this was very
interesting to see because thenI start in my chinese to talk
with them and then somebodyspeak up.
I can translate, may I boss, Isay, oh for sure, let's help,
(40:41):
let's work together.
Right, to be approachable, andthe first two, two times was not
much communication for sure.
Environmental topics yeah, thefood can be better, the toilet
cleaners could be better, sobasically what you have if you
have a big plant of four or fivehundred people.
But interesting is you see thechange.
(41:04):
And now they are actuallywaiting for this lunch with
leaders, so, and they even comeup two times.
So before I go to my, my, my,my majority leave, um, they come
up and say, sebastian, I wouldlike to have a different food,
because every time the same.
I say I think I don't recognizeit.
(41:25):
Thank you very much.
Let's, let's order somedifferent things.
Yeah, so we make a smallquestionnaire what you like?
Speaker 1 (41:31):
okay pizza.
Speaker 2 (41:32):
Okay, we want a lot of Italian food and lot of was
there?
Well, some, some, somespaghetti, and you know.
And then we have a very goodconversation by lunch, but not
very official with agenda.
Now maintenance, yeah, yeah,and sometimes you need to,
sometimes you need to talk first.
(41:52):
I use this also as a kind of amini town hall meeting to inform
them what's happening in thecompany, what's happening in our
other facility that is 2000kilometers far away, maybe Right
, so I also utilize this kind ofevents to share them what's
happening in one I don't want tosay my company in our company.
(42:13):
And so Sebastian, yes, I don'twant to in our company, and
Sebastian, yes, I think.
Speaker 1 (42:19):
Tell me if I'm wrong, but to finish and to close, and
what I learned from ourconversation it is not that much
about the overall strategy,maybe about the differences and
commonalities of germans andchinese, but I learned from your
approach, from your experiencebeing in both markets, in both
(42:42):
cultures, being there for 16 oreven more years it's you can put
your heart to the products, butyou can also put your heart to
the people, and that's maybe acommon language everybody
understands and it feels likeyou are creating a safe place
(43:06):
where people want to belong,want to add whatever their
strength is, and it's more aquestion about mindset, it's
more a question about leadership, it's more, you know, releasing
all the potential from thatpeople.
And this is, to me, the essencethat I get from our conversation
(43:31):
, which gives me kind of nothope, but which gives me an
opening, a gateway to come upwith great solutions in
leadership that will helpeverybody bring out his best and
(43:51):
enjoy it.
That's even better If you'reworking 50 or more hours.
You at least what you want.
You want to enjoy this and notfeel threatened or whatever.
So, yes, anything to add fromyour side that is not yet put
(44:12):
into the right light or focus.
Speaker 2 (44:17):
Yeah, so you said it very, very correct what's a
company?
And this is also one of theworkshops I hold with my teams,
because I'm also givingworkshops and some mentorings to
the people what is a company?
Is the building the company,the machines or the products?
(44:38):
And it's very surprisingly,very few people say no, actually
the people is the company.
Speaker 1 (44:46):
Yes.
Speaker 2 (44:50):
So, and I think this should be, this should be the
the, the thing, and the futuredoes not belong to the guys who
make everything cautiously andvery accurate over engineering,
but also, and I think almost andI mean you mentioned this crazy
guy in America who sleep on thefloor.
I think he did it just weeksago again, right, probably.
(45:11):
I think he did it just weeksago again, right, probably.
It's about to be bold enough tomake a decision and go ahead,
because if you make a decision,you make maybe a mistake, but if
(45:36):
you don't make a decision.
Speaker 1 (45:38):
You already did the mistake.
Fantastic conversations, lotsof insights.
I'd like to carry this one on,maybe in a year's time to find
out what's more to learn aboutit.
Speaker 2 (45:55):
For the time being, thank you, sebastian for being
on the show and wishing you allgood travels, safe travels in
your ventures.
Thank you, stefan.
Yes, and hopefully we can meetus very soon in Munich or
somewhere around absolutelyanytime, 24 7 okay let's see
what's my schedule telling usokay, bye.
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