May 26, 2025 • 26 mins
What happens when conventional leadership approaches fail in the face of unprecedented challenges? Senior Vice President Dennis Hüttenmeister found himself building Europe's first lithium refinery just as COVID-19 lockdowns began and global supply chains collapsed. Starting with just a blank piece of paper and a handful of team members, he discovered that creating human connection would prove more valuable than any formal project management methodology.
Dennis shares his refreshingly authentic approach to navigating uncertainty by creating psychological safety and focusing on people's natural strengths. Rather than forcing standard processes, he implemented daily stand-ups where team members connected organically—even intentionally giving them space to bond without him present. Weekly one-on-ones became sacred time for development conversations that team members actively protected in their schedules. These seemingly small practices built the foundation of trust necessary for tackling massive technical challenges in a virtual environment.
Perhaps most revolutionary is Dennis's perspective on talent development. When confronted with a technical expert who wanted a leadership position primarily for financial reasons, Dennis challenged the conventional career ladder. "What I observe is when you're working in your expert role, I see you super happy, energized, intrinsically motivated," he told the team member. Instead of losing a brilliant specialist to a management track where they might struggle, Dennis created an alternative path recognizing their value while keeping them in their zone of genius. This human-centered approach reminds us that organizations thrive when they build positions around people's strengths rather than forcing people to conform to predefined roles. As Dennis puts it: "If someone starts to really glow from the inside, ultimately the company will also be happy with it." Discover how applying this philosophy creates environments where both people and projects flourish despite external chaos.
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https://www.stefan-goetz.com/
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:03):
Welcome to another episode of the Leadership
Espresso podcast.
Today we have DennisHüttenmeister on the show.
Welcome to the show, dennis.
I know you are a Senior VicePresident of Sales and Execution
and being a world champion invacuum induction technology, and
(00:28):
today we want to know all abouthow you handle unpredictable,
difficult situations inleadership.
Speaker 2 (00:35):
So welcome to the show.
Speaker 1 (00:37):
Hey, hey, stefan, thank you for having me yeah,
wonderful, let's jump right intoit, as I really value your
humor, the way you tackledifficult situations, and maybe
you can just share one or twoinsights about how you go
forward.
Speaker 2 (00:57):
Yeah, well, what my job is here is basically
managing all the specialprojects so not the normal
products and also thelarge-scale stuff, so all the
stuff that has the biggestpotential to well, let's say,
escalate.
Speaker 1 (01:18):
It sounds like business as normal, with lots of
leaders.
Speaker 2 (01:23):
Well, that's true.
Yes, normal with lots ofleaders.
Yeah, well, that's, that's true.
Yes, uh, yeah, in the lastyears, I had the, the honor to
to um be project manager for um,also in in a sister company to
um, yeah, build up the firsteuropean lithium uh refinery,
which we did in in easterngermany and uh, as you could
imagine, uh starting in in late2019.
(01:47):
Uh, that that was quite right.
Uh, with like two, two monthsinto job, uh, we uh the covet
started and then we had the, theukraine crisis and war um
impacting like everything thatuh you could touch in in in the
field of project management forthese plants we managed.
(02:12):
Some weeks ago, the firstlithium hydroxide was produced.
What did we do?
We started off pretty much witha blank piece of paper.
What did we do?
We started off pretty much witha blank piece of paper and we
needed to find a way in a verysmall company.
I was employee number nine inthis company at the time and
(02:33):
today it's far more than 100.
So basically, there were nostructures, there was no one to
ask OK, how do we do thatnormally?
So we had to find a way and wedid, fortunately, and um, what I
think helped a lot during thattime is not taking like
(02:54):
everything too seriously.
Um, there will be impacts fromit from all sides and uh, that's
it.
That's how it is.
And in the upfront talk therewas a quote that I said I talked
to like a very cool guy who haslike years and years and years
of experience in plantmanagement or plant project
(03:16):
management, and what he said isin the end there's always a
plant, so don't worry, it'llwork in the end, don't worry
there will be a plant, so don'tworry, it'll work in the end.
Speaker 1 (03:33):
Don't worry, there will be a plant, there will be a
plant.
So I guess you were the rightperson, uh, to tackle that task.
So maybe you can describe inthat setting you know, starting
war in the Ukraine, covid comingin, you know, starting with a
new company, probably with a newtechnology as well.
So I guess, with lots ofprojects, there would be a long
(03:59):
list of things not working andthings to handle.
So what is your approach.
Speaker 2 (04:09):
Basically, the first thing I found out is I did like
a super fancy project managementtraining course and so on, and
I found out, yeah, there'snothing I can use.
Wow, super, not helpful.
So, yeah, I need to find a way.
Okay, how do I do that then, ifnone of the normal approaches
(04:33):
is somehow applicable?
And so I thought, okay, I haveto recruit people.
Okay, but there is a lockdown.
How do I recruit people when Ican't see the people?
Um, yeah, well, uh, obviously,teams was coming in.
That helped a lot.
Um, but still, like everyoneknows that there there's kind of
(04:57):
a hurdle or a barrier when,when, when you talk through
teams.
So at some point there thereneeded to be personal contact.
And what I really focused onwas well, yeah, of course, the
hard facts need to be there.
When I need someone to domechanical stuff should be an
(05:19):
industrial mechanical engineer.
If I need electrical stuff, ofcourse, course.
So, yeah, these things must bethere.
But then I focus a lot on howis the the fit between these
people?
Do I believe that they, um,yeah, they fit together, that
they can become a team, um, evenif the normal team building
(05:43):
stuff, like having the peopletogether, go on a dinner or
something, have them togetherfor lunch.
All is just not existing, yeah.
So I really try to focus onokay, how can I make that?
At the same time, I try toselect people along the way.
(06:05):
Okay, how do I eliminate blindspots?
So what's their experience?
So is that the same or is thatdifferent?
And I came out with a team of,in the beginning, three
engineers, so we were only fourin the team at that time for
pretty large investments, but wewere meant to do the onus
(06:28):
engineering and we needed tofind other people to carry out
the majority of the work.
Yeah, so then we tried to teamthe people and we need to find a
way to have this coffee machinetalks going on.
And, yeah, so we implementedstand-ups in the morning.
(06:53):
So every morning there would bea stand-up.
And it worked out so well thatthe people started to dial in 15
minutes early to talk abouteverything.
So that was really cool.
Then I found out that if theboss is there quote unquote then
(07:17):
normally there was somehow afeeling that, okay, now we're
starting with a meeting.
So I started giving them theroom and not dialing early to
have like, okay, that's theirsafe space, let's say, so they
can do their whatever they wantto talk about stuff.
(07:39):
And I really dialed in at halfpast eight so I gave them this
room and that was cool becausesometimes it was they talked
about all kinds of private stuff.
Other times they talked throughthe topics and when I dialed in
it was, yeah, we had this topic, but we already solved it.
Speaker 1 (08:01):
That was also pretty cool, uh, yeah so it's like uh,
leading with giving space yeah,that's that I.
Speaker 2 (08:12):
I feel that if you want a team to to work, then you
need to give them space.
It's uh something that theyneed to be safe, and of course,
I hope that they also felt safewhen I'm around.
But of course it's a bitdifferent when they're with
(08:33):
themselves.
And I tried to give them thisroom.
And then I said, okay, alsowant to like develop the people.
I want to like see where, okay,where can I develop them?
And, um, of course, same thoughtuh, safety, you cannot do this,
uh, in front of everyone.
So, um, well, I didn't want toum, so I started doing
(08:56):
one-on-one calls once a weekwith everyone.
Yeah, um so, and and that wasalso a room, it wasn't like
pre-casted or something so Isaid, okay, if you have topics,
go ahead.
If I have topics, I tell you wecan talk about everything.
If you have a private thingthat you want to talk about,
(09:17):
we'll talk about that.
If there's professional thingsto talk about, we talk about
that.
If we're done after fiveminutes, fine.
If we need more time, thenlet's see where we go or we
continue later.
So try to have it very open.
And, yeah, I found that thepeople really liked that and
(09:43):
they really actively searchedfor it.
So when there was like too muchworkload and two weeks in a row
we couldn't, then they reallyasked okay, but this week we
need to do the call.
What was your?
intention behind these calls all, and what was your intention
(10:08):
behind these calls?
Um, I like to, um, I think it'sbeen in the thought of servant
leadership to um, have them, um,yeah, to support them as good
as possible, and that that is.
That is on two sides, that is,in the professional advancement
or in the professionaldevelopment, like in the actual
task to be done.
If there's a question, um,there needs to be a room to
(10:29):
discuss it.
Um, but also like what, what's,what's their goal in
professional life?
So, where do they want to go?
And, um, I found it helpful forthem and also for for, because
it's yeah, of course, I developalso when I do that to openly
talk about OK, where do you,where do you want to go, and
(10:50):
what's your, what's your driverbehind that?
Why do you want to go there?
Speaker 1 (10:55):
Absolutely, and I remember a situation that you
had with someone who wanted togrow, but the setting was
interesting and how you turnedit around.
Maybe you want to share aboutthis one.
Speaker 2 (11:11):
Yeah, there was a situation with a guy in my team.
He wanted to develop into aleadership role and he was long
years in a leadership.
He managed a production shopand before that so he was an
(11:34):
engineer in my team and beforethat I gave them some smaller
jobs with partial management ofthe project and I found out that
that didn't turn out so supergood.
I tried to develop with him andhelp him in the situation.
After I gave him feedback, Ialso felt that in the situation
(11:58):
he wasn't too happy with it,felt that in the situation he
wasn't like too happy with it.
Yeah, on the other hand, whenhe was in his like deep
expertise, um, and he couldn'tdive in like level 200 deep,
then he really he glowed.
It was like you really saw himsmiling all day this is what we
call an expert, yeah.
(12:20):
And then he was super, supergood in this expert role and I
couldn't say that I was superhappy with him in the leadership
role.
So I told him.
I said okay, why do you want togo into this leadership role?
And he said yeah, I also wantto earn more money.
(12:40):
I said, said, okay, wronganswer.
Then, uh, well, notsurprisingly that there was uh
silence.
Okay, let let let me explainwhy I said that.
And I said um, okay, let meexplain why I said that.
And I said told him directly.
(13:05):
What I observe is that whenyou're working in your expert
role, I see you super happy, Isee you energized, I see you
like you're really intrinsicallymotivated.
Yeah, when I expose you tothese leadership roles, then I
(13:31):
don't see that there's so muchenergy in it.
Also, you burden yourself withmore work because it's somehow I
observe it as hard for you thatyou give work away and you like
let other people do the stuff,and that's something that's
super, super important.
When you want to go into aleadership role, you cannot do
everything on your own.
That's the reason why youyou're there.
(13:53):
You have to lead other people.
You have to find, like, theflight level and not the digging
deep to work.
And I told him okay, what I cando for you is like find internal
, find ways that in yourleadership or in your sorry, in
(14:14):
your expert, you can also earnmore money.
I see you as the top experthere for this topic and so I
talked internally with othercolleagues how we can develop
him in this direction and alsogave him the question as I said,
(14:35):
if you really want to go into aleadership position, I will
support you, of course, butmaybe just take the thought for
a week or two and think about ifyou really want to lead,
transform your daily work frommanaging with data to managing
(14:58):
people, and if you're really,really happy with that.
And I told him why am I sayingthis?
I'm not saying this because Idon't want to help him in the
leadership position or whatever.
I'm really, really convincedthat if someone, from the
(15:41):
company perspective and alsofrom the perspective of the
people if you find a positionwhere the people start to really
glow from the inside, thatthey're intrinsically motivated
and that they are happy with,ultimately the company will also
be happy with it, because theywill develop more value to the
company and they will be morehappy in their job and they will
stay longer in the company andthey will start like from every
perspective, it's the better wayto find the best place for
someone that really fits totheir career and like not have
(16:03):
have career tracks that you haveto follow in order to make more
money.
So, uh, it's more like the theposition has to like fit to the
guy and not the guy to theposition.
Speaker 1 (16:15):
I think that's an interesting thought, um, about
talent development.
Typically, we have a positionto fill in a company and we're
looking for someone inside oroutside to fill that position.
But when you come from ahuman-centric approach, where
(16:41):
you value people, where you seepeople want to contribute and,
as you put it, people areglowing, I think what you focus
on and what you bring us to thetable is that we are in the
leadership position.
(17:02):
We shall focus on the people tomake them or to inspire them,
or to bring them in a positionto glow yeah, and when people
glowing, then automatically youknow they will contribute and
contribution will thenultimately you will see they
(17:22):
will contribute and contributionwill then ultimately receive
them P-0.
Yes.
So I'd be interested to knowwere there any conflicts, or
what happens when somethinghappens, I mean when there is
the CFO saying, no, we can'tallow us to put up more money.
(17:44):
Or how do you handle conflictsituations?
Speaker 2 (17:50):
I mean, the good thing in this company is that it
was an immensely growingcompany.
The good thing in this companyis that it was an immensely
growing company and in growingcompanies there's so many things
that are open and there's somuch development going on and so
many screws not fixed.
Let's say that with the rightapproach or with the right
(18:16):
arguments, let's say you canmake positions.
And what we did with him islike I said, okay, this project
will be over at some time, butthe knowledge of this guy who,
like, basically engineered allof this, will be super valuable.
So in the end, what we want issomeone to be like the head
(18:41):
expert when it comes to how tomake this stuff, how to make
this process work.
And so I said, okay, let'smaybe have a position of like
chief, something not chief butbut senior, something engineer.
And so to maybe give him asmall team of other experts
(19:07):
where the focus is not so muchon the management of these
people, but to have just a bitmore force, a bit more broth to
make things happen.
And yeah, we started doing this, and that also opened up
(19:29):
possibilities for higher salary.
It wasn't like reallymanagement, really leadership,
that he had to do.
It was he could still focus onhis job and yeah, so we made
(19:50):
this position for him.
So in this case it was somehoweasy, and In bigger corporations
, of course, that's morecomplicated because it's more
structured.
You have these certain tracksand I think corporations need to
(20:12):
think new somehow.
I mean, there's corporationswho do that.
I think IBM started quite someyears ago having this I think
they call it fellow programwhere they do exactly that.
They found out that and it'sbasically exactly the same thing
they found out that if theypromote the best expert to the
(20:35):
leadership position of his team,he gets unhappy because he
can't do what he likes to do andwhat he's good at.
And then they found out thatthese people leave for their
competitors that sell them morefor their old job.
So, um, sure, they had a shittymanager and they lost their top
(21:00):
expert.
Yeah, but just some euros.
Why?
Yeah, there's no reason in that.
And, um, yeah, they found outand they build up like this
whole track, and I think at ibmit was uh at the time that you
could earn as much money as, um,a c-level person.
Well, maybe not the ceo, but uhothers, um, in that fellow
(21:24):
program right, um, and thatreally uh increased the
retention rate a lot, yeah yeah,now to, to, to sum up or to
somehow.
Speaker 1 (21:35):
Yeah, yeah, now to sum up or to somehow.
Now we live in times whereTrump one day he raises tariffs
and another day he shortens them.
Elon Musk approaches this orthat way.
How are you, how does thatimpact your business and how do
(21:59):
you, what is your way of dealingwith that?
Speaker 2 (22:03):
Well, there's the hard stuff.
When you want to export to USmakes it harder.
But in the end, when you'reconvinced that your product is
the better one and you canconvince the customers of doing
that, okay.
But if there's a runningproject and you already sold for
a certain price, that getsinteresting and that's where you
(22:27):
I think, in the end, you needto be honest and you need to
tell your customers okay, wedidn't plan for that.
We can try everything we can tosomehow manage through that and
find ways, but yeah, it is whatit is and you have to manage it
(22:47):
and no reason to get frustratedabout it.
It is what it is in the end andit will turn out somehow.
Speaker 1 (22:57):
Yeah, it comes again to the, to this one mentor let's
call this guy who told you inthe end there will be a band.
Yeah, so it's.
I think it's.
We waste so much time andfocusing on external factors
rather than just getting thingsfixed.
(23:20):
And as engineers, I mean, wetry, we're trained to fix things
.
Yeah and uh.
What I truly value about yourapproach is that you fix things
by believing in people.
You give them the space to grow, you give them connection that
(23:43):
makes them feel heard and seen.
So there's no wishy-washyaround it.
There's no.
It's a very powerful, authentic, big-hearted approach to people
and getting things done.
Speaker 2 (24:05):
Thank you.
Speaker 1 (24:06):
In the end, there will be a plan.
Speaker 2 (24:10):
In the end, there will be a plan.
I think, well, I tell people alot that I cannot do it without
them.
They are the experts.
I can, like get the gravel outthe way and the get like stones
out of their way, yeah, uh, inthe end they need to, they.
They need to do what they are,that they are better at I am
(24:31):
than I am, and, um, they are theexpert and at the same time,
for me, this also meansresponsibility and
accountability, so they areresponsible for their work
package.
If there's things coming intheir way, that's my job to get
rid of these things.
I want to make an atmosphereand want to make a atmosphere
(24:55):
and want to make a place forthem where they can work freely.
My job is to make this spaceand to manage everything around
it.
That's what I'm good at.
They need to trust me that I dowhat I can do well and I trust
them that they do what they cando well and I trust them that
(25:17):
they do what they can do well.
Speaker 1 (25:21):
So, yeah, I like this approach.
It's about making space forthem to work freely so they can
focus on what they can do best,and this will benefit everyone.
It will benefit the client, itwill benefit our company, it
will benefit our P&L and the end.
It sounds a bit weird thesedays, but everybody's going to
(25:43):
be happy.
Speaker 2 (25:45):
Yeah, it's a horrible thing to think about.
Speaker 1 (25:50):
No, dennis, thank you so much for this time.
It is to be continued,certainly, and thank you for
sharing your time, your insightsabout this human-centric, happy
approach.
Speaker 2 (26:05):
Thank you.
Thank you so much.
It was a fun time.
Welcome to another episode of the Leadership
Espresso podcast.
Today we have DennisHüttenmeister on the show.
Welcome to the show, dennis.
I know you are a Senior VicePresident of Sales and Execution
and being a world champion invacuum induction technology, and
(00:28):
today we want to know all abouthow you handle unpredictable,
difficult situations inleadership.
Speaker 2 (00:35):
So welcome to the show.
Speaker 1 (00:37):
Hey, hey, stefan, thank you for having me yeah,
wonderful, let's jump right intoit, as I really value your
humor, the way you tackledifficult situations, and maybe
you can just share one or twoinsights about how you go
forward.
Speaker 2 (00:57):
Yeah, well, what my job is here is basically
managing all the specialprojects so not the normal
products and also thelarge-scale stuff, so all the
stuff that has the biggestpotential to well, let's say,
escalate.
Speaker 1 (01:18):
It sounds like business as normal, with lots of
leaders.
Speaker 2 (01:23):
Well, that's true.
Yes, normal with lots ofleaders.
Yeah, well, that's, that's true.
Yes, uh, yeah, in the lastyears, I had the, the honor to
to um be project manager for um,also in in a sister company to
um, yeah, build up the firsteuropean lithium uh refinery,
which we did in in easterngermany and uh, as you could
imagine, uh starting in in late2019.
(01:47):
Uh, that that was quite right.
Uh, with like two, two monthsinto job, uh, we uh the covet
started and then we had the, theukraine crisis and war um
impacting like everything thatuh you could touch in in in the
field of project management forthese plants we managed.
(02:12):
Some weeks ago, the firstlithium hydroxide was produced.
What did we do?
We started off pretty much witha blank piece of paper.
What did we do?
We started off pretty much witha blank piece of paper and we
needed to find a way in a verysmall company.
I was employee number nine inthis company at the time and
(02:33):
today it's far more than 100.
So basically, there were nostructures, there was no one to
ask OK, how do we do thatnormally?
So we had to find a way and wedid, fortunately, and um, what I
think helped a lot during thattime is not taking like
(02:54):
everything too seriously.
Um, there will be impacts fromit from all sides and uh, that's
it.
That's how it is.
And in the upfront talk therewas a quote that I said I talked
to like a very cool guy who haslike years and years and years
of experience in plantmanagement or plant project
(03:16):
management, and what he said isin the end there's always a
plant, so don't worry, it'llwork in the end, don't worry
there will be a plant, so don'tworry, it'll work in the end.
Speaker 1 (03:33):
Don't worry, there will be a plant, there will be a
plant.
So I guess you were the rightperson, uh, to tackle that task.
So maybe you can describe inthat setting you know, starting
war in the Ukraine, covid comingin, you know, starting with a
new company, probably with a newtechnology as well.
So I guess, with lots ofprojects, there would be a long
(03:59):
list of things not working andthings to handle.
So what is your approach.
Speaker 2 (04:09):
Basically, the first thing I found out is I did like
a super fancy project managementtraining course and so on, and
I found out, yeah, there'snothing I can use.
Wow, super, not helpful.
So, yeah, I need to find a way.
Okay, how do I do that then, ifnone of the normal approaches
(04:33):
is somehow applicable?
And so I thought, okay, I haveto recruit people.
Okay, but there is a lockdown.
How do I recruit people when Ican't see the people?
Um, yeah, well, uh, obviously,teams was coming in.
That helped a lot.
Um, but still, like everyoneknows that there there's kind of
(04:57):
a hurdle or a barrier when,when, when you talk through
teams.
So at some point there thereneeded to be personal contact.
And what I really focused onwas well, yeah, of course, the
hard facts need to be there.
When I need someone to domechanical stuff should be an
(05:19):
industrial mechanical engineer.
If I need electrical stuff, ofcourse, course.
So, yeah, these things must bethere.
But then I focus a lot on howis the the fit between these
people?
Do I believe that they, um,yeah, they fit together, that
they can become a team, um, evenif the normal team building
(05:43):
stuff, like having the peopletogether, go on a dinner or
something, have them togetherfor lunch.
All is just not existing, yeah.
So I really try to focus onokay, how can I make that?
At the same time, I try toselect people along the way.
(06:05):
Okay, how do I eliminate blindspots?
So what's their experience?
So is that the same or is thatdifferent?
And I came out with a team of,in the beginning, three
engineers, so we were only fourin the team at that time for
pretty large investments, but wewere meant to do the onus
(06:28):
engineering and we needed tofind other people to carry out
the majority of the work.
Yeah, so then we tried to teamthe people and we need to find a
way to have this coffee machinetalks going on.
And, yeah, so we implementedstand-ups in the morning.
(06:53):
So every morning there would bea stand-up.
And it worked out so well thatthe people started to dial in 15
minutes early to talk abouteverything.
So that was really cool.
Then I found out that if theboss is there quote unquote then
(07:17):
normally there was somehow afeeling that, okay, now we're
starting with a meeting.
So I started giving them theroom and not dialing early to
have like, okay, that's theirsafe space, let's say, so they
can do their whatever they wantto talk about stuff.
(07:39):
And I really dialed in at halfpast eight so I gave them this
room and that was cool becausesometimes it was they talked
about all kinds of private stuff.
Other times they talked throughthe topics and when I dialed in
it was, yeah, we had this topic, but we already solved it.
Speaker 1 (08:01):
That was also pretty cool, uh, yeah so it's like uh,
leading with giving space yeah,that's that I.
Speaker 2 (08:12):
I feel that if you want a team to to work, then you
need to give them space.
It's uh something that theyneed to be safe, and of course,
I hope that they also felt safewhen I'm around.
But of course it's a bitdifferent when they're with
(08:33):
themselves.
And I tried to give them thisroom.
And then I said, okay, alsowant to like develop the people.
I want to like see where, okay,where can I develop them?
And, um, of course, same thoughtuh, safety, you cannot do this,
uh, in front of everyone.
So, um, well, I didn't want toum, so I started doing
(08:56):
one-on-one calls once a weekwith everyone.
Yeah, um so, and and that wasalso a room, it wasn't like
pre-casted or something so Isaid, okay, if you have topics,
go ahead.
If I have topics, I tell you wecan talk about everything.
If you have a private thingthat you want to talk about,
(09:17):
we'll talk about that.
If there's professional thingsto talk about, we talk about
that.
If we're done after fiveminutes, fine.
If we need more time, thenlet's see where we go or we
continue later.
So try to have it very open.
And, yeah, I found that thepeople really liked that and
(09:43):
they really actively searchedfor it.
So when there was like too muchworkload and two weeks in a row
we couldn't, then they reallyasked okay, but this week we
need to do the call.
What was your?
intention behind these calls all, and what was your intention
(10:08):
behind these calls?
Um, I like to, um, I think it'sbeen in the thought of servant
leadership to um, have them, um,yeah, to support them as good
as possible, and that that is.
That is on two sides, that is,in the professional advancement
or in the professionaldevelopment, like in the actual
task to be done.
If there's a question, um,there needs to be a room to
(10:29):
discuss it.
Um, but also like what, what's,what's their goal in
professional life?
So, where do they want to go?
And, um, I found it helpful forthem and also for for, because
it's yeah, of course, I developalso when I do that to openly
talk about OK, where do you,where do you want to go, and
(10:50):
what's your, what's your driverbehind that?
Why do you want to go there?
Speaker 1 (10:55):
Absolutely, and I remember a situation that you
had with someone who wanted togrow, but the setting was
interesting and how you turnedit around.
Maybe you want to share aboutthis one.
Speaker 2 (11:11):
Yeah, there was a situation with a guy in my team.
He wanted to develop into aleadership role and he was long
years in a leadership.
He managed a production shopand before that so he was an
(11:34):
engineer in my team and beforethat I gave them some smaller
jobs with partial management ofthe project and I found out that
that didn't turn out so supergood.
I tried to develop with him andhelp him in the situation.
After I gave him feedback, Ialso felt that in the situation
(11:58):
he wasn't too happy with it,felt that in the situation he
wasn't like too happy with it.
Yeah, on the other hand, whenhe was in his like deep
expertise, um, and he couldn'tdive in like level 200 deep,
then he really he glowed.
It was like you really saw himsmiling all day this is what we
call an expert, yeah.
(12:20):
And then he was super, supergood in this expert role and I
couldn't say that I was superhappy with him in the leadership
role.
So I told him.
I said okay, why do you want togo into this leadership role?
And he said yeah, I also wantto earn more money.
(12:40):
I said, said, okay, wronganswer.
Then, uh, well, notsurprisingly that there was uh
silence.
Okay, let let let me explainwhy I said that.
And I said um, okay, let meexplain why I said that.
And I said told him directly.
(13:05):
What I observe is that whenyou're working in your expert
role, I see you super happy, Isee you energized, I see you
like you're really intrinsicallymotivated.
Yeah, when I expose you tothese leadership roles, then I
(13:31):
don't see that there's so muchenergy in it.
Also, you burden yourself withmore work because it's somehow I
observe it as hard for you thatyou give work away and you like
let other people do the stuff,and that's something that's
super, super important.
When you want to go into aleadership role, you cannot do
everything on your own.
That's the reason why youyou're there.
(13:53):
You have to lead other people.
You have to find, like, theflight level and not the digging
deep to work.
And I told him okay, what I cando for you is like find internal
, find ways that in yourleadership or in your sorry, in
(14:14):
your expert, you can also earnmore money.
I see you as the top experthere for this topic and so I
talked internally with othercolleagues how we can develop
him in this direction and alsogave him the question as I said,
(14:35):
if you really want to go into aleadership position, I will
support you, of course, butmaybe just take the thought for
a week or two and think about ifyou really want to lead,
transform your daily work frommanaging with data to managing
(14:58):
people, and if you're really,really happy with that.
And I told him why am I sayingthis?
I'm not saying this because Idon't want to help him in the
leadership position or whatever.
I'm really, really convincedthat if someone, from the
(15:41):
company perspective and alsofrom the perspective of the
people if you find a positionwhere the people start to really
glow from the inside, thatthey're intrinsically motivated
and that they are happy with,ultimately the company will also
be happy with it, because theywill develop more value to the
company and they will be morehappy in their job and they will
stay longer in the company andthey will start like from every
perspective, it's the better wayto find the best place for
someone that really fits totheir career and like not have
(16:03):
have career tracks that you haveto follow in order to make more
money.
So, uh, it's more like the theposition has to like fit to the
guy and not the guy to theposition.
Speaker 1 (16:15):
I think that's an interesting thought, um, about
talent development.
Typically, we have a positionto fill in a company and we're
looking for someone inside oroutside to fill that position.
But when you come from ahuman-centric approach, where
(16:41):
you value people, where you seepeople want to contribute and,
as you put it, people areglowing, I think what you focus
on and what you bring us to thetable is that we are in the
leadership position.
(17:02):
We shall focus on the people tomake them or to inspire them,
or to bring them in a positionto glow yeah, and when people
glowing, then automatically youknow they will contribute and
contribution will thenultimately you will see they
(17:22):
will contribute and contributionwill then ultimately receive
them P-0.
Yes.
So I'd be interested to knowwere there any conflicts, or
what happens when somethinghappens, I mean when there is
the CFO saying, no, we can'tallow us to put up more money.
(17:44):
Or how do you handle conflictsituations?
Speaker 2 (17:50):
I mean, the good thing in this company is that it
was an immensely growingcompany.
The good thing in this companyis that it was an immensely
growing company and in growingcompanies there's so many things
that are open and there's somuch development going on and so
many screws not fixed.
Let's say that with the rightapproach or with the right
(18:16):
arguments, let's say you canmake positions.
And what we did with him islike I said, okay, this project
will be over at some time, butthe knowledge of this guy who,
like, basically engineered allof this, will be super valuable.
So in the end, what we want issomeone to be like the head
(18:41):
expert when it comes to how tomake this stuff, how to make
this process work.
And so I said, okay, let'smaybe have a position of like
chief, something not chief butbut senior, something engineer.
And so to maybe give him asmall team of other experts
(19:07):
where the focus is not so muchon the management of these
people, but to have just a bitmore force, a bit more broth to
make things happen.
And yeah, we started doing this, and that also opened up
(19:29):
possibilities for higher salary.
It wasn't like reallymanagement, really leadership,
that he had to do.
It was he could still focus onhis job and yeah, so we made
(19:50):
this position for him.
So in this case it was somehoweasy, and In bigger corporations
, of course, that's morecomplicated because it's more
structured.
You have these certain tracksand I think corporations need to
(20:12):
think new somehow.
I mean, there's corporationswho do that.
I think IBM started quite someyears ago having this I think
they call it fellow programwhere they do exactly that.
They found out that and it'sbasically exactly the same thing
they found out that if theypromote the best expert to the
(20:35):
leadership position of his team,he gets unhappy because he
can't do what he likes to do andwhat he's good at.
And then they found out thatthese people leave for their
competitors that sell them morefor their old job.
So, um, sure, they had a shittymanager and they lost their top
(21:00):
expert.
Yeah, but just some euros.
Why?
Yeah, there's no reason in that.
And, um, yeah, they found outand they build up like this
whole track, and I think at ibmit was uh at the time that you
could earn as much money as, um,a c-level person.
Well, maybe not the ceo, but uhothers, um, in that fellow
(21:24):
program right, um, and thatreally uh increased the
retention rate a lot, yeah yeah,now to, to, to sum up or to
somehow.
Speaker 1 (21:35):
Yeah, yeah, now to sum up or to somehow.
Now we live in times whereTrump one day he raises tariffs
and another day he shortens them.
Elon Musk approaches this orthat way.
How are you, how does thatimpact your business and how do
(21:59):
you, what is your way of dealingwith that?
Speaker 2 (22:03):
Well, there's the hard stuff.
When you want to export to USmakes it harder.
But in the end, when you'reconvinced that your product is
the better one and you canconvince the customers of doing
that, okay.
But if there's a runningproject and you already sold for
a certain price, that getsinteresting and that's where you
(22:27):
I think, in the end, you needto be honest and you need to
tell your customers okay, wedidn't plan for that.
We can try everything we can tosomehow manage through that and
find ways, but yeah, it is whatit is and you have to manage it
(22:47):
and no reason to get frustratedabout it.
It is what it is in the end andit will turn out somehow.
Speaker 1 (22:57):
Yeah, it comes again to the, to this one mentor let's
call this guy who told you inthe end there will be a band.
Yeah, so it's.
I think it's.
We waste so much time andfocusing on external factors
rather than just getting thingsfixed.
(23:20):
And as engineers, I mean, wetry, we're trained to fix things
.
Yeah and uh.
What I truly value about yourapproach is that you fix things
by believing in people.
You give them the space to grow, you give them connection that
(23:43):
makes them feel heard and seen.
So there's no wishy-washyaround it.
There's no.
It's a very powerful, authentic, big-hearted approach to people
and getting things done.
Speaker 2 (24:05):
Thank you.
Speaker 1 (24:06):
In the end, there will be a plan.
Speaker 2 (24:10):
In the end, there will be a plan.
I think, well, I tell people alot that I cannot do it without
them.
They are the experts.
I can, like get the gravel outthe way and the get like stones
out of their way, yeah, uh, inthe end they need to, they.
They need to do what they are,that they are better at I am
(24:31):
than I am, and, um, they are theexpert and at the same time,
for me, this also meansresponsibility and
accountability, so they areresponsible for their work
package.
If there's things coming intheir way, that's my job to get
rid of these things.
I want to make an atmosphereand want to make a atmosphere
(24:55):
and want to make a place forthem where they can work freely.
My job is to make this spaceand to manage everything around
it.
That's what I'm good at.
They need to trust me that I dowhat I can do well and I trust
them that they do what they cando well and I trust them that
(25:17):
they do what they can do well.
Speaker 1 (25:21):
So, yeah, I like this approach.
It's about making space forthem to work freely so they can
focus on what they can do best,and this will benefit everyone.
It will benefit the client, itwill benefit our company, it
will benefit our P&L and the end.
It sounds a bit weird thesedays, but everybody's going to
(25:43):
be happy.
Speaker 2 (25:45):
Yeah, it's a horrible thing to think about.
Speaker 1 (25:50):
No, dennis, thank you so much for this time.
It is to be continued,certainly, and thank you for
sharing your time, your insightsabout this human-centric, happy
approach.
Speaker 2 (26:05):
Thank you.
Thank you so much.
It was a fun time.
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