June 25, 2025 • 24 mins
What if everything we've been taught about cleanliness, bacteria, and health has been steering us in the wrong direction? Katie Worth, MD of Microbz (www.microbz.co.uk), a UK-based probiotic company, challenges our fundamental assumptions about microorganisms and offers a revolutionary perspective on how we might work with nature rather than against it.
The conversation reveals how modern society has waged a counterproductive war against microbes that has led to two concerning outcomes: the rise of antimicrobial resistance (potentially threatening hundreds of thousands of lives in coming years) and dramatically depleted nutrient density in our foods. "You need to eat 20 carrots today to get the nutrition from one carrot 20 years ago," Katie explains, highlighting how our chemical-dependent agricultural system has stripped soils of the microbial diversity necessary for transferring minerals into plants.
Unlike conventional probiotics that isolate specific strains, Microbes harvests diverse microbial communities directly from soil and ferments them to create products teeming with beneficial organisms. This approach acknowledges the vast complexity of microbial ecosystems—what Katie calls "inner space"—and trusts in nature's inherent intelligence to restore balance. The results speak for themselves as customers experience improvements not just in gut health but in seemingly unrelated conditions from skin problems to ear infections, demonstrating how the body directs beneficial microbes where they're needed most.
Though their soil-based probiotics help address immediate health concerns, Katie's vision extends much further—toward revitalizing soil health across the UK to create a food system that naturally provides the nutrients and microbial diversity humans need, eliminating the supplement dependency cycle entirely. This regenerative approach offers powerful insights not just for personal health but for business leadership, suggesting that organizations might benefit from being viewed as living systems rather than machines with parts to be fixed or replaced.
Discover how connecting with the intelligence of nature might transform your understanding of health and provide sustainable solutions to some of our most pressing challenges. Ready to rethink everything you know about microbes and your relationship with them?
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:03):
So welcome Katie Worth, md of microbes in a
startup in the south of Englandwho is kind of reinventing gut
health system, thinking aboutnature, and happy to have you on
the show, katie.
Thank you for being with us andlet's talk about nature.
Speaker 2 (00:26):
Thank you so much for having me.
I really appreciate it.
Yeah, let's talk about nature.
Speaker 1 (00:31):
Yeah, so how is your approach different and why?
What's driving you?
Speaker 2 (00:41):
Well, what's driving us really is nature.
So we are a probiotic brandbased in the UK, as you said,
and unlike most probiotic brands, we harvest our mother culture
or our probiotic cultures fromnature, directly from soil, and
we don't engineer them, we don'tchange them in any way.
We just collect them and thenwe ferment them four times,
(01:05):
which increases the number ofmicrobes.
So we feed them with molassesand we keep them warm and we
look after them and they expandand multiply.
So by the time we have theprobiotic product, which is
after those four stages offermentation, we have a high
quality, highly diverse productand we don't take any credit for
(01:26):
that.
The credit for that should goback to nature, which is, um,
the thing that created all of us, and within that is this
incredible microbial life whichwe don't fully yet understand.
My dad talks about it a bitlike space.
You know, we have this kind ofmore awesome wonder about space,
this incredible frontier, andwe like to think about the
(01:50):
microbiome as as that kind ofinner space.
You know, there's so much wedon't know about it, there's so
much to explore, there's so muchhappening and we can't see this
, but we can see the effects ofit.
So we see the health effects ofbringing this incredible
microbial diversity back intopeople right.
Speaker 1 (02:09):
So, um, I understand that it's some magic behind it,
but maybe there is a bigfoundation also in in your
thinking about nature and whythe joint forces.
So can you help us understand?
How is that different to maybeother approaches in the industry
(02:32):
?
Speaker 2 (02:34):
So for us it's about trust.
You know it's about we trustnature.
So quite a lot of people wouldcome back to that with the idea
you know, oh, but what ifthere's a pathogen in there?
What if there's something bad?
And we were heavily regulated.
So we do all of our testing, weknow there's no pathogens in
there and it's not our job to wedon't think it's our job to
(02:58):
completely fully understand thisincredible microbial diversity,
because it has symbioticrelationships that science
hasn't figured out yet.
But we trust it because it'sshown us time and time again
that it can regenerate naturally, it can help help organic
systems, it it has this, uh,intelligence, natural
(03:19):
intelligence.
So I think the differencebetween us and other brands is
that we trust that and we havehad that trust reinforced time
and time again the more that weuse the products.
Speaker 1 (03:33):
Okay.
So for some people in thebusiness or in the industry, you
know, trust is a big issue andwe all want to know how this
works.
And I understand you say, okay,we see the effects, the
positive effects, but they aregrounded in you know.
(03:54):
Can you just elaborate a littlebit about it's like a circular
system, it seems.
So maybe you know we can betterunderstand if you give us that
whole picture of the trust whereyou trust in.
Speaker 2 (04:14):
So a couple of things spring to mind for that.
So microbial life is all aboutbalance.
So if you have a microbialsystem which has an
overpopulation of pathogens ornegative microbes, the whole
system goes into kind of a it'snot healthy.
(04:34):
When you have a balance ofpositive, beneficial microbes,
that changes the whole system,the whole environment, to a
beneficial, healthy system.
And that happens in manydifferent parts in the body, in
(04:56):
soils, in the environment.
So there's this kind of balancebit which is part of the trust.
Speaker 1 (05:06):
What is the balance about about, and why is balance
so important?
Speaker 2 (05:10):
well, all systems balance and you know, basically
we've tried for such a long timeto kill all microbial life and
it's a bit like the war on drugsit just will never, ever work.
You just end up making the badguys more powerful and stronger.
And now we're facing this hugeissue of antimicrobial
resistance, which is a big dealfor um agriculture and for
(05:34):
livestock and for humans.
So there's a.
Some people think in the next10 years in the uk we could be
losing 300 400 000 people a yearto diseases which cannot be
treated with antibiotics anymore.
So we've had this kind of waron microbes to try and kill the
bad guys, which hasn't worked,and so now we're interested in-.
Speaker 1 (05:53):
Are you stopping this idea?
Good guy or good whatever goodchemical versus bad whatever
Good bug?
Speaker 2 (06:02):
versus bad bug.
Yes, exactly, so you don't needto kill all of the pathogens in
your home by usingantibacterial spray.
You need to introducebeneficial bacteria, which is
the job for you or in your gut,katie.
Speaker 1 (06:17):
Just let's be practical.
Yesterday I was in the kitchen,I had to clean it up and I had
the choice to take either thechemical version of some big
brands or I had your choice.
Your microbus cleaner, which islife, and I was so tempted,
(06:37):
just the ordinary.
I would take the chemical,whatever because I have to kill,
I have to make it clean.
Whatever because I have to kill, you know I have to make it
clean.
So, um, how could you help me?
Maybe take a better choice nexttime.
Speaker 2 (06:52):
Well, I would say you have an outdated idea of what
is clean.
So in your mind, you'reequating the idea of killing
bacteria with the idea of thingsbeing clean, and this is a
mindset, it's a mentality that'sbeing drilled into us through
advertising.
You know, of course, sterilesurgical environments need to be
(07:12):
sterile.
There's a reason for that, ofcourse.
But your kitchen counter willnever, ever be a space that has
no bacteria on it, and if youspray it with antibiotics or
with with those kind of bugs,you just kill, like you kill
everything in your stomach.
If you add beneficial microbes,they do that job for you.
They out-compete.
They basically live in thecrevices of your countertop and
(07:36):
out-compete bad bacteria.
So you're working with nature,you're using nature to do all
these jobs.
Speaker 1 (07:41):
Okay, there's an interesting idea.
So the microbes help me killbad bacteria.
Speaker 2 (07:55):
Say that again.
Speaker 1 (07:57):
Pardon me.
Speaker 2 (07:59):
Can you repeat the question?
Speaker 1 (08:01):
It looks like that the microbes you say they're
beneficial, the microbes killbad bacteria on my kitchen
counter or whatever.
Speaker 2 (08:12):
So we would use the word out-compete.
So they basically neutralizethe threat by out-competing it,
by becoming more populated, somicrobes kind of they grow this
biofilm on surfaces in your gutand other surfaces which
out-competes pathogens.
So it's not like the war ondrugs where you're trying to
kill them, it's aboutout-competing them so dominating
(08:37):
, so it's out-competing them sodominating, so it's
out-competing.
Speaker 1 (08:41):
How is that beneficial?
Speaker 2 (08:44):
Well, it's beneficial because every time you kill the
bad bacteria in your house, itlearns how to modify itself
against that threat in thefuture and it turns into
something that is that isgenetically um or adapted to to
fight that threat.
(09:04):
So you're creating a super bug.
I mean in the extreme level.
In hospitals in the uk we nowhave this mrsa issue because
we've spent so long trying tokill all this bacteria.
It's mutated in order to to notbe impacted by the same
chemicals so I understand it'slike um, you're not.
Speaker 1 (09:29):
Your idea is never about going against something
that will reinforce it.
You name the issues abouthospitals.
You know, havingmulti-resistance uh issues, uh
ends on the fourth.
But your idea is showing forceswith nature and your idea was
(09:51):
building like a living film,because we are living organisms
that support each other.
Is that the idea?
Speaker 2 (10:01):
That's the idea, definitely.
And coming back to somethingyou mentioned before, how does
it work?
Microbes are wonderful at twothings.
They build life, so in your gut, they take nutrients from food
and they help make that into theshort chain fatty acids and
proteins and stuff and they'realso incredibly good at breaking
down life.
So, um, you know, breakingthings down into their
(10:24):
fundamental parts, uh, releasingcarbon, all that kind of thing.
So they have these, these twojobs in the cycle of life.
The cycle of life is aboutgrowth and building and creating
and then about decaying andfermenting that and releasing
all those basic level proteins,carbons, back into soils or
(10:48):
bodies.
So they have this incredibleability themselves to close this
cycle of life and for us, it'snot about, it's about harnessing
that incredible power.
It's not about trying tounderstand it scientifically and
replicating it.
It's just trusting that in anysituation, they will know what
to create and what to break downfor recultivating the garden,
(11:30):
helping pets, animals, even forus human beings.
Speaker 1 (11:42):
So you told me the idea is maybe not even selling
my crops that help us, you know,fill a hole, but even go
further.
So maybe you can, you know,widening the picture and the
frame of your approach.
Speaker 2 (11:51):
Yes, thank you.
I find this so important.
I feel really passionate aboutit.
So you know, if we take a stepback from supplements, so
supplements is something that wetake more and more.
The supplement business isgrowing very fast and that's all
about putting stuff back inyour body like zinc, magnesium
(12:11):
you know all these vitamins andminerals and I feel like society
has slept, walked into thatreality without really asking
the question why do I need totake all these supplements?
So, from our perspective, thatis about nutrient density in
food.
So one of the reasons peopleneed to take more supplements is
(12:33):
because the food that they'reeating is less nutrient dense
than it was 20 years, 50 yearsago, is less nutrient dense than
it was 20 years, 50 years ago.
So if you eat a carrot today,you'll eat you'll.
You'll need to eat 20 carrotstoday to get the nutrition that
you got from that carrot 20years.
One carrot 20 years ago oh, andI even don't eat one carrot a
day, you know yeah, but there'sthis kind of nutrient density
(12:55):
which is decreasing in food andum and that we believe is due to
soil health.
So soil health in the uk hasdramatically.
It has been damageddramatically and there's not
much life left in it and it'sbeen over, chemicalized,
overused.
It doesn't have what it needsto have in in it in terms of
(13:17):
microbes, organic matter andminerals to get nutrients into
foods and those nutrients tothen be passed into the human
body.
Speaker 1 (13:25):
So we would rather this sounds weird and insane.
Now be practical again.
I go to my supermarket and, uh,it sounds like even though I
buy fresh food, the fresh foodis kind of dead because there's
no living life back in thatfruit.
(13:46):
And then I'll take it knowingit's kind of dead, and then I
need supplements to help me makedead food healthy.
More, you know, bring, bringback what's not in there.
Speaker 2 (14:01):
So it's mad, isn't it ?
It's absolutely mad when you,when you, step back, that's mad.
It's mad and we don't need no,it's basically all the, all the
micronutrients, like um, likephosphorus and calcium and zinc.
We don't need very much ofthese things, but we need little
bits regularly.
So that's and that's what we'remissing and that's why
(14:21):
supplement culture has been.
And it's quite incredible how,basically, if a carrot's growing
in the soil, what it does is itsends out enzymes or sugars
into the soil and the microbesgo out and find phosphorus and
zinc and magnesium and stuff andbring, bring it back to the
plant's roots, which it thenabsorbs into the plant.
(14:43):
So it's a microbial system thatgets this nutrient density into
the foods in the first place.
Speaker 1 (14:51):
And if the soil doesn't have those microbes in
it, it can't transfer thosenutrients nutrients into the,
into the foods so, coming backto this overall idea of circular
thinking, close to this wouldmean we need to work with the
(15:11):
soil, maybe even first, to bringout fresh not just fresh food,
but alive, living food livingfood.
Speaker 2 (15:21):
Living food yeah.
Speaker 1 (15:22):
Into our bodies, that bring the microbes into our
bodies that are beneficial andhelp the entire gut system to
you know, we know that the gutis just, it's the intelligence
of, of the entire body.
(15:42):
You know it has a bigconnection to the brain.
So if you have a health gut,then you're healthy in life,
you're powerful.
You're strong, you can lead theway.
So how do you close the loopnow?
Speaker 2 (15:57):
so a couple of things here.
So our product, what itbasically does is it takes loads
and loads of beneficial soilmicrobes and herbs and minerals
and gives you that in asupplement.
So it's like here you go,here's all the stuff that you're
missing from your, from thesoils, uh, in in a supplement.
And what we see from that ispeople's health generally
(16:17):
dramatically increases and theyget they.
They see relief from somesevere gut health issues, but we
don't want to have to give youthis soil-based probiotic
forever.
We would love to be able to fixthis soil issue in the uk, to
bring life back into soils andhave a food system which is
(16:39):
local and which is healthy, sothat you don't have to take
supplements anymore because theroad, the road, that road feels
like a dangerous road.
You know how much, how muchlonger do we have soil health
for?
How many more supplements do weneed to take?
The supplement industry is a isa wild west industry.
It's full of people who aregiving you things that you can't
(16:59):
absorb.
So in the long term, the roadneeds to be back to a, a natural
system, a soil-based, healthysystem.
So we would love to close thatyou know and I'm talking 50
years you know I don't expectthis to happen next week, but in
the uk I don't know how it isin germany we do have a lot of
companies and farmers andorganizations who are really
(17:20):
passionate about soil health.
So it's becoming quite a bigand, you know, exciting issue
and world to be in and we allenvisage a future which is
healthier now can you, um, youknow, give us some showcases
about health effectiveness.
Speaker 1 (17:42):
You, you, you know you can bring to life.
Yeah, sure I mean what do yousee when with your products?
Speaker 2 (17:50):
So one of the things that I love that I see often
with the products is peoplestart taking it for some for a
reason whatever reason thatwould be so IBS, ibd, you know
some kind of gut health issueand then they realized that
something else clears up, sotheir skin clears up.
The weirdest one I ever had wassomebody had really itchy ears
(18:12):
and they couldn't they couldn'tget, they couldn't do anything
to stop this itch and they tookthe probiotic for a gut health
issue and their ears cleaned up.
So what I take from that is weall have individual microbiomes
and we have this very diversesoil health microbial population
and it's our belief that thatthe microbes have an
(18:35):
intelligence and the body has anintelligence and they kind of
work together to fix issues.
So often things are sorted outthat I wouldn't have imagined
would have a microbial impact.
So it reinforces this idea thatthe body is this incredible
microbial system.
We have micro billions of themin us and if they're given more
(18:58):
diversity, more balance, theycan sort issues out for
themselves.
They don't, they don't need usbeing like, oh, what you need is
this particular microbe forthis particular thing so you see
, that's the trusting naturething.
We trust the body and we trustthe microbes that they can help
bring about life.
Speaker 1 (19:17):
They can help people thrive so my takeaway from our
podcast today is one is yourapproach is a uh, circular
approach, a regenerativeapproach.
Uh, from you know, some call itfrom cradle to cradle, you know
, from the soil to the microbes,the living beneficial microbes
(19:43):
that help the body self-heal.
Speaker 2 (19:48):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (19:49):
My second takeaway is you don't focus on proving
something.
Your focus is on healing.
Your focus is on seeing theeffects and trust nature that
nature does its job.
So that's the second one.
(20:09):
The third one is that youstrongly believe about this
balance.
What I understood you know lifeis imbalancedbalanced.
It's different to the classictraditional thinking which is
you have a problem, you have tofix the problem and you have to
go against whatever it causesand you say no.
(20:32):
If you go against something,you make it bigger, so you don't
actually solve it.
So your approach is what Iunderstand is more, you go for
the underlying support system tosupport a balance.
(20:52):
This is why you don't go forkind of supplements, what's
missing?
But you re-infuse life into adead body, a dead, dead fruit, a
dead soil.
So these are my three takeaways.
Um, am I missing something?
Speaker 2 (21:09):
no, just thank you so much for you know, for giving,
for giving me this ability totalk about it, and I would say
just to end that it's we take no, um, we take no acclamation for
this.
We feel like it's the microbesand their magnificence and their
marvellousness that does all ofthis.
It's just our job to facilitateit.
(21:30):
It's just our job to kind ofrewild or populate these
microbes, but actually they'rethe ones that do these
incredible things.
Speaker 1 (21:39):
Katie, coming from this, I mean I'm in the
leadership business but thisgives me some thought, or
fruitful thought, about someinspiring questions.
One is, uh, you talk aboutnature and soul and we know a
company or organization is alsoa system, and how would that
(22:03):
system be treated different ifwe didn't look like there's
something missing?
We need a training or coachingor something, but if we see it
as a social soil system, thatyou know where we, where we
bring in life, you know, comingfrom purpose.
(22:26):
So that's one thought that'sreally hitting me.
How can you know, see ittotally different?
The second one is that's alreadyin in the business.
They call it circular designthinking or cradle to cradle,
and I saw an example with bmwlaunching, uh, what they call,
(22:49):
uh, neue class, a new class, uh,where they design the cars, you
know, in a circle way, so inthe end of the life cycle you
can reuse everything and don'thave to dismantle and recycle.
So how can that thinking bereinforced, from cradle to
(23:13):
cradle, coming from nature?
And the last bit is aninspiring question to me is this
not going against something,but like it's more like joining
(23:33):
forces with, with a basic ideathat people want to contribute,
like nature wants to contribute?
Speaker 2 (23:43):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (23:44):
So you know, and then thinking about, if we are a
system, there's nobody to beblamed if we don't perform, but
it's more like going of what canI give like from nature, you
know, and we don't understand it, maybe fully, but we see the
effects.
So these are the threeinspiring questions to me that
(24:04):
come from our podcast today.
Uh, and everybody who wants toknow more about it, just uh,
katie, I'm sure you're more thanwilling to answer more
questions.
Certainly, you can buy productsI put it into the link below
but it's microbescouk and weshould talk another time when
(24:30):
you see more effects coming upin a bigger scale.
So for now, katie, it was apleasure, and let's join forces
with nature.
Speaker 2 (24:42):
Thank you so much.
Speaker 1 (24:45):
Thank you.
So welcome Katie Worth, md of microbes in a
startup in the south of Englandwho is kind of reinventing gut
health system, thinking aboutnature, and happy to have you on
the show, katie.
Thank you for being with us andlet's talk about nature.
Speaker 2 (00:26):
Thank you so much for having me.
I really appreciate it.
Yeah, let's talk about nature.
Speaker 1 (00:31):
Yeah, so how is your approach different and why?
What's driving you?
Speaker 2 (00:41):
Well, what's driving us really is nature.
So we are a probiotic brandbased in the UK, as you said,
and unlike most probiotic brands, we harvest our mother culture
or our probiotic cultures fromnature, directly from soil, and
we don't engineer them, we don'tchange them in any way.
We just collect them and thenwe ferment them four times,
(01:05):
which increases the number ofmicrobes.
So we feed them with molassesand we keep them warm and we
look after them and they expandand multiply.
So by the time we have theprobiotic product, which is
after those four stages offermentation, we have a high
quality, highly diverse productand we don't take any credit for
(01:26):
that.
The credit for that should goback to nature, which is, um,
the thing that created all of us, and within that is this
incredible microbial life whichwe don't fully yet understand.
My dad talks about it a bitlike space.
You know, we have this kind ofmore awesome wonder about space,
this incredible frontier, andwe like to think about the
(01:50):
microbiome as as that kind ofinner space.
You know, there's so much wedon't know about it, there's so
much to explore, there's so muchhappening and we can't see this
, but we can see the effects ofit.
So we see the health effects ofbringing this incredible
microbial diversity back intopeople right.
Speaker 1 (02:09):
So, um, I understand that it's some magic behind it,
but maybe there is a bigfoundation also in in your
thinking about nature and whythe joint forces.
So can you help us understand?
How is that different to maybeother approaches in the industry
(02:32):
?
Speaker 2 (02:34):
So for us it's about trust.
You know it's about we trustnature.
So quite a lot of people wouldcome back to that with the idea
you know, oh, but what ifthere's a pathogen in there?
What if there's something bad?
And we were heavily regulated.
So we do all of our testing, weknow there's no pathogens in
there and it's not our job to wedon't think it's our job to
(02:58):
completely fully understand thisincredible microbial diversity,
because it has symbioticrelationships that science
hasn't figured out yet.
But we trust it because it'sshown us time and time again
that it can regenerate naturally, it can help help organic
systems, it it has this, uh,intelligence, natural
(03:19):
intelligence.
So I think the differencebetween us and other brands is
that we trust that and we havehad that trust reinforced time
and time again the more that weuse the products.
Speaker 1 (03:33):
Okay.
So for some people in thebusiness or in the industry, you
know, trust is a big issue andwe all want to know how this
works.
And I understand you say, okay,we see the effects, the
positive effects, but they aregrounded in you know.
(03:54):
Can you just elaborate a littlebit about it's like a circular
system, it seems.
So maybe you know we can betterunderstand if you give us that
whole picture of the trust whereyou trust in.
Speaker 2 (04:14):
So a couple of things spring to mind for that.
So microbial life is all aboutbalance.
So if you have a microbialsystem which has an
overpopulation of pathogens ornegative microbes, the whole
system goes into kind of a it'snot healthy.
(04:34):
When you have a balance ofpositive, beneficial microbes,
that changes the whole system,the whole environment, to a
beneficial, healthy system.
And that happens in manydifferent parts in the body, in
(04:56):
soils, in the environment.
So there's this kind of balancebit which is part of the trust.
Speaker 1 (05:06):
What is the balance about about, and why is balance
so important?
Speaker 2 (05:10):
well, all systems balance and you know, basically
we've tried for such a long timeto kill all microbial life and
it's a bit like the war on drugsit just will never, ever work.
You just end up making the badguys more powerful and stronger.
And now we're facing this hugeissue of antimicrobial
resistance, which is a big dealfor um agriculture and for
(05:34):
livestock and for humans.
So there's a.
Some people think in the next10 years in the uk we could be
losing 300 400 000 people a yearto diseases which cannot be
treated with antibiotics anymore.
So we've had this kind of waron microbes to try and kill the
bad guys, which hasn't worked,and so now we're interested in-.
Speaker 1 (05:53):
Are you stopping this idea?
Good guy or good whatever goodchemical versus bad whatever
Good bug?
Speaker 2 (06:02):
versus bad bug.
Yes, exactly, so you don't needto kill all of the pathogens in
your home by usingantibacterial spray.
You need to introducebeneficial bacteria, which is
the job for you or in your gut,katie.
Speaker 1 (06:17):
Just let's be practical.
Yesterday I was in the kitchen,I had to clean it up and I had
the choice to take either thechemical version of some big
brands or I had your choice.
Your microbus cleaner, which islife, and I was so tempted,
(06:37):
just the ordinary.
I would take the chemical,whatever because I have to kill,
I have to make it clean.
Whatever because I have to kill, you know I have to make it
clean.
So, um, how could you help me?
Maybe take a better choice nexttime.
Speaker 2 (06:52):
Well, I would say you have an outdated idea of what
is clean.
So in your mind, you'reequating the idea of killing
bacteria with the idea of thingsbeing clean, and this is a
mindset, it's a mentality that'sbeing drilled into us through
advertising.
You know, of course, sterilesurgical environments need to be
(07:12):
sterile.
There's a reason for that, ofcourse.
But your kitchen counter willnever, ever be a space that has
no bacteria on it, and if youspray it with antibiotics or
with with those kind of bugs,you just kill, like you kill
everything in your stomach.
If you add beneficial microbes,they do that job for you.
They out-compete.
They basically live in thecrevices of your countertop and
(07:36):
out-compete bad bacteria.
So you're working with nature,you're using nature to do all
these jobs.
Speaker 1 (07:41):
Okay, there's an interesting idea.
So the microbes help me killbad bacteria.
Speaker 2 (07:55):
Say that again.
Speaker 1 (07:57):
Pardon me.
Speaker 2 (07:59):
Can you repeat the question?
Speaker 1 (08:01):
It looks like that the microbes you say they're
beneficial, the microbes killbad bacteria on my kitchen
counter or whatever.
Speaker 2 (08:12):
So we would use the word out-compete.
So they basically neutralizethe threat by out-competing it,
by becoming more populated, somicrobes kind of they grow this
biofilm on surfaces in your gutand other surfaces which
out-competes pathogens.
So it's not like the war ondrugs where you're trying to
kill them, it's aboutout-competing them so dominating
(08:37):
, so it's out-competing them sodominating, so it's
out-competing.
Speaker 1 (08:41):
How is that beneficial?
Speaker 2 (08:44):
Well, it's beneficial because every time you kill the
bad bacteria in your house, itlearns how to modify itself
against that threat in thefuture and it turns into
something that is that isgenetically um or adapted to to
fight that threat.
(09:04):
So you're creating a super bug.
I mean in the extreme level.
In hospitals in the uk we nowhave this mrsa issue because
we've spent so long trying tokill all this bacteria.
It's mutated in order to to notbe impacted by the same
chemicals so I understand it'slike um, you're not.
Speaker 1 (09:29):
Your idea is never about going against something
that will reinforce it.
You name the issues abouthospitals.
You know, havingmulti-resistance uh issues, uh
ends on the fourth.
But your idea is showing forceswith nature and your idea was
(09:51):
building like a living film,because we are living organisms
that support each other.
Is that the idea?
Speaker 2 (10:01):
That's the idea, definitely.
And coming back to somethingyou mentioned before, how does
it work?
Microbes are wonderful at twothings.
They build life, so in your gut, they take nutrients from food
and they help make that into theshort chain fatty acids and
proteins and stuff and they'realso incredibly good at breaking
down life.
So, um, you know, breakingthings down into their
(10:24):
fundamental parts, uh, releasingcarbon, all that kind of thing.
So they have these, these twojobs in the cycle of life.
The cycle of life is aboutgrowth and building and creating
and then about decaying andfermenting that and releasing
all those basic level proteins,carbons, back into soils or
(10:48):
bodies.
So they have this incredibleability themselves to close this
cycle of life and for us, it'snot about, it's about harnessing
that incredible power.
It's not about trying tounderstand it scientifically and
replicating it.
It's just trusting that in anysituation, they will know what
to create and what to break downfor recultivating the garden,
(11:30):
helping pets, animals, even forus human beings.
Speaker 1 (11:42):
So you told me the idea is maybe not even selling
my crops that help us, you know,fill a hole, but even go
further.
So maybe you can, you know,widening the picture and the
frame of your approach.
Speaker 2 (11:51):
Yes, thank you.
I find this so important.
I feel really passionate aboutit.
So you know, if we take a stepback from supplements, so
supplements is something that wetake more and more.
The supplement business isgrowing very fast and that's all
about putting stuff back inyour body like zinc, magnesium
(12:11):
you know all these vitamins andminerals and I feel like society
has slept, walked into thatreality without really asking
the question why do I need totake all these supplements?
So, from our perspective, thatis about nutrient density in
food.
So one of the reasons peopleneed to take more supplements is
(12:33):
because the food that they'reeating is less nutrient dense
than it was 20 years, 50 yearsago, is less nutrient dense than
it was 20 years, 50 years ago.
So if you eat a carrot today,you'll eat you'll.
You'll need to eat 20 carrotstoday to get the nutrition that
you got from that carrot 20years.
One carrot 20 years ago oh, andI even don't eat one carrot a
day, you know yeah, but there'sthis kind of nutrient density
(12:55):
which is decreasing in food andum and that we believe is due to
soil health.
So soil health in the uk hasdramatically.
It has been damageddramatically and there's not
much life left in it and it'sbeen over, chemicalized,
overused.
It doesn't have what it needsto have in in it in terms of
(13:17):
microbes, organic matter andminerals to get nutrients into
foods and those nutrients tothen be passed into the human
body.
Speaker 1 (13:25):
So we would rather this sounds weird and insane.
Now be practical again.
I go to my supermarket and, uh,it sounds like even though I
buy fresh food, the fresh foodis kind of dead because there's
no living life back in thatfruit.
(13:46):
And then I'll take it knowingit's kind of dead, and then I
need supplements to help me makedead food healthy.
More, you know, bring, bringback what's not in there.
Speaker 2 (14:01):
So it's mad, isn't it ?
It's absolutely mad when you,when you, step back, that's mad.
It's mad and we don't need no,it's basically all the, all the
micronutrients, like um, likephosphorus and calcium and zinc.
We don't need very much ofthese things, but we need little
bits regularly.
So that's and that's what we'remissing and that's why
(14:21):
supplement culture has been.
And it's quite incredible how,basically, if a carrot's growing
in the soil, what it does is itsends out enzymes or sugars
into the soil and the microbesgo out and find phosphorus and
zinc and magnesium and stuff andbring, bring it back to the
plant's roots, which it thenabsorbs into the plant.
(14:43):
So it's a microbial system thatgets this nutrient density into
the foods in the first place.
Speaker 1 (14:51):
And if the soil doesn't have those microbes in
it, it can't transfer thosenutrients nutrients into the,
into the foods so, coming backto this overall idea of circular
thinking, close to this wouldmean we need to work with the
(15:11):
soil, maybe even first, to bringout fresh not just fresh food,
but alive, living food livingfood.
Speaker 2 (15:21):
Living food yeah.
Speaker 1 (15:22):
Into our bodies, that bring the microbes into our
bodies that are beneficial andhelp the entire gut system to
you know, we know that the gutis just, it's the intelligence
of, of the entire body.
(15:42):
You know it has a bigconnection to the brain.
So if you have a health gut,then you're healthy in life,
you're powerful.
You're strong, you can lead theway.
So how do you close the loopnow?
Speaker 2 (15:57):
so a couple of things here.
So our product, what itbasically does is it takes loads
and loads of beneficial soilmicrobes and herbs and minerals
and gives you that in asupplement.
So it's like here you go,here's all the stuff that you're
missing from your, from thesoils, uh, in in a supplement.
And what we see from that ispeople's health generally
(16:17):
dramatically increases and theyget they.
They see relief from somesevere gut health issues, but we
don't want to have to give youthis soil-based probiotic
forever.
We would love to be able to fixthis soil issue in the uk, to
bring life back into soils andhave a food system which is
(16:39):
local and which is healthy, sothat you don't have to take
supplements anymore because theroad, the road, that road feels
like a dangerous road.
You know how much, how muchlonger do we have soil health
for?
How many more supplements do weneed to take?
The supplement industry is a isa wild west industry.
It's full of people who aregiving you things that you can't
(16:59):
absorb.
So in the long term, the roadneeds to be back to a, a natural
system, a soil-based, healthysystem.
So we would love to close thatyou know and I'm talking 50
years you know I don't expectthis to happen next week, but in
the uk I don't know how it isin germany we do have a lot of
companies and farmers andorganizations who are really
(17:20):
passionate about soil health.
So it's becoming quite a bigand, you know, exciting issue
and world to be in and we allenvisage a future which is
healthier now can you, um, youknow, give us some showcases
about health effectiveness.
Speaker 1 (17:42):
You, you, you know you can bring to life.
Yeah, sure I mean what do yousee when with your products?
Speaker 2 (17:50):
So one of the things that I love that I see often
with the products is peoplestart taking it for some for a
reason whatever reason thatwould be so IBS, ibd, you know
some kind of gut health issueand then they realized that
something else clears up, sotheir skin clears up.
The weirdest one I ever had wassomebody had really itchy ears
(18:12):
and they couldn't they couldn'tget, they couldn't do anything
to stop this itch and they tookthe probiotic for a gut health
issue and their ears cleaned up.
So what I take from that is weall have individual microbiomes
and we have this very diversesoil health microbial population
and it's our belief that thatthe microbes have an
(18:35):
intelligence and the body has anintelligence and they kind of
work together to fix issues.
So often things are sorted outthat I wouldn't have imagined
would have a microbial impact.
So it reinforces this idea thatthe body is this incredible
microbial system.
We have micro billions of themin us and if they're given more
(18:58):
diversity, more balance, theycan sort issues out for
themselves.
They don't, they don't need usbeing like, oh, what you need is
this particular microbe forthis particular thing so you see
, that's the trusting naturething.
We trust the body and we trustthe microbes that they can help
bring about life.
Speaker 1 (19:17):
They can help people thrive so my takeaway from our
podcast today is one is yourapproach is a uh, circular
approach, a regenerativeapproach.
Uh, from you know, some call itfrom cradle to cradle, you know
, from the soil to the microbes,the living beneficial microbes
(19:43):
that help the body self-heal.
Speaker 2 (19:48):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (19:49):
My second takeaway is you don't focus on proving
something.
Your focus is on healing.
Your focus is on seeing theeffects and trust nature that
nature does its job.
So that's the second one.
(20:09):
The third one is that youstrongly believe about this
balance.
What I understood you know lifeis imbalancedbalanced.
It's different to the classictraditional thinking which is
you have a problem, you have tofix the problem and you have to
go against whatever it causesand you say no.
(20:32):
If you go against something,you make it bigger, so you don't
actually solve it.
So your approach is what Iunderstand is more, you go for
the underlying support system tosupport a balance.
(20:52):
This is why you don't go forkind of supplements, what's
missing?
But you re-infuse life into adead body, a dead, dead fruit, a
dead soil.
So these are my three takeaways.
Um, am I missing something?
Speaker 2 (21:09):
no, just thank you so much for you know, for giving,
for giving me this ability totalk about it, and I would say
just to end that it's we take no, um, we take no acclamation for
this.
We feel like it's the microbesand their magnificence and their
marvellousness that does all ofthis.
It's just our job to facilitateit.
(21:30):
It's just our job to kind ofrewild or populate these
microbes, but actually they'rethe ones that do these
incredible things.
Speaker 1 (21:39):
Katie, coming from this, I mean I'm in the
leadership business but thisgives me some thought, or
fruitful thought, about someinspiring questions.
One is, uh, you talk aboutnature and soul and we know a
company or organization is alsoa system, and how would that
(22:03):
system be treated different ifwe didn't look like there's
something missing?
We need a training or coachingor something, but if we see it
as a social soil system, thatyou know where we, where we
bring in life, you know, comingfrom purpose.
(22:26):
So that's one thought that'sreally hitting me.
How can you know, see ittotally different?
The second one is that's alreadyin in the business.
They call it circular designthinking or cradle to cradle,
and I saw an example with bmwlaunching, uh, what they call,
(22:49):
uh, neue class, a new class, uh,where they design the cars, you
know, in a circle way, so inthe end of the life cycle you
can reuse everything and don'thave to dismantle and recycle.
So how can that thinking bereinforced, from cradle to
(23:13):
cradle, coming from nature?
And the last bit is aninspiring question to me is this
not going against something,but like it's more like joining
(23:33):
forces with, with a basic ideathat people want to contribute,
like nature wants to contribute?
Speaker 2 (23:43):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (23:44):
So you know, and then thinking about, if we are a
system, there's nobody to beblamed if we don't perform, but
it's more like going of what canI give like from nature, you
know, and we don't understand it, maybe fully, but we see the
effects.
So these are the threeinspiring questions to me that
(24:04):
come from our podcast today.
Uh, and everybody who wants toknow more about it, just uh,
katie, I'm sure you're more thanwilling to answer more
questions.
Certainly, you can buy productsI put it into the link below
but it's microbescouk and weshould talk another time when
(24:30):
you see more effects coming upin a bigger scale.
So for now, katie, it was apleasure, and let's join forces
with nature.
Speaker 2 (24:42):
Thank you so much.
Speaker 1 (24:45):
Thank you.
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