April 15, 2025 • 72 mins
What drives someone to climb 500-meter vertical walls without ropes or attempt seemingly impossible feats that push the very limits of human capability? In this riveting conversation, the legendary Huber Brothers—Thomas and Alexander—take us deep into the psychological landscape of extreme alpinism and reveal striking parallels to leadership and personal growth.
The brothers articulate a philosophy that transcends climbing: "If I would always realize projects that I'm 100% successful from the beginning, then it's boring." This fundamental approach to seeking the unknown—deliberately pursuing challenges with unpredictable outcomes—forms the backbone of their pioneering achievements. They've transformed the climbing world through free solo ascents of massive walls and by shattering speed records on El Capitan's iconic "Nose" route in Yosemite.
Their relationship with fear stands in stark contrast to conventional wisdom. Rather than something to overcome, the Hubers describe fear as a sophisticated regulatory system that creates "sensitization"—a heightened state of awareness where all senses become fully engaged. This perspective offers profound insights for decision-making in any high-stakes environment. When they reach what they call "the vacuum of time"—that perfect state of presence and focus—they experience an absolute clarity that observers might mistake for machine-like precision.
The brothers' approach to high-performance teamwork provides equally valuable lessons. They emphasize that exceptional teams begin with individual mastery—each person must address their own weaknesses rather than expecting teammates to compensate for them. Only when everyone has "done their homework 100%" can a team transcend simple addition and create something greater than the sum of its parts.
Listen to discover how the Hubers' mental strategies for confronting life-or-death situations can transform your approach to challenges, leadership, and personal growth. Their wisdom offers a powerful roadmap for finding your own "inner summit" and creating experiences that remain vivid in your memory long after other moments have faded into the background noise of life.
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https://www.youtube.com/@Stefangoetz_Global_Leadership/videos
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https://www.stefan-goetz.com/
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:19):
Welcome to Fresh Ideas.
Today we are in Bad Reichenhall, namely at the Huberbum.
The Huberbums are the probablybelong to the world's top of the
extreme climbers, now knownthrough the film Am Limit
through advertising spots.
What we are particularlyinterested in today is how they
do this for themselves, pioneerservices, ie these inner
(00:44):
processes, how they take placewith you, once everyone for
himself, so Thomas Alexander,and then together in the team.
How this takes place togetheras a high performance team.
Look forward to theconversation.
There will be a lot of it,thank you.
Speaker 2 (01:05):
To do things that others are not doing Exactly,
and that's why we are differentfrom everyone else.
You have to place yourselfsomewhere in the business, in
your professional life,everywhere, and if you are
basically great but basically dothe same as Hinz and the same,
then you are actually a numberamong many who are good.
(01:30):
But to be completely differentagain, you have to develop
completely new things.
There is, for example, a doctorwho is just like in the economy
.
I don't know what the doctor'sname is.
Speaker 3 (01:43):
Eckart von Hirschhausen.
Speaker 2 (01:44):
Exactly.
He makes comedy and it worksperfectly, and that's why he's
booked.
And there we are at the secondpoint.
Speaker 1 (01:57):
Only through humor you can achieve something, and
that's exactly what fascinatesand excites me about you when
(02:23):
you're in the mountains in me,so what you do is sensational.
So I get goose bumps, andcertainly others too.
But rather the question of theinner process.
I also said that the innerclimbing, yes, these mental
stories and you two are notidentical, but each one is a bit
different.
And to peel that out once, howdo you, Alex, and how do you,
(02:44):
Thomas, deal with this extremesituation?
And then I would like toexplain the second part, because
that is simply very special foryou.
How do you deal with each otherin a team to create such a
pioneering performance?
So what's different there andwhat can I learn from it?
In business, I already said,Thomas, you are a professional
in the expedition area andAlexander is, I think I
(03:06):
understood it, a free soloexpert At the absolute top of
the world.
And I would like to explain thequestion at the beginning what
really motivates you, what isthe driving force for what you
are doing here and in thepreparation, especially in the
broadcast of Markus Lanz?
Something very appealed to meFirst of all, when I asked
(03:26):
Alexander, you said we approachthings that we cannot predict at
the outset.
That is the essence of alpinism.
Can you explain a little bitwhat the driving force behind it
is?
Speaker 3 (03:37):
Yes, quite simply.
If I would always realizeprojects that I have been
successful, successful from thebeginning keep it to 100%
successful, then it's actuallyboring.
It's a familiar path.
We know that we want to reachthe limit.
Only then is it somethingextraordinary.
(03:59):
If someone says I'm Mr 100%Success, then he can never
really go to his limit, becausegoing to the limit means failing
or making mistakes is a forcedpart of it.
And that's why, when I go tothe limit, the outcome is never
(04:23):
predictable.
It can be that you have asuccess.
It may be that you have to pullback again because you realize
it doesn't work this time.
The great art in this isperhaps to appreciate things
realistically, and if you say,okay, that was your setback, it
didn't work, then you shouldjust reflect and ask yourself
(04:45):
but have I grown in principle?
And if I have grown inprinciple, then it simply means
staying true to it.
Speaker 2 (04:53):
What is behind it?
Speaker 1 (04:55):
The challenge.
Let me get in there a littlebit.
You said curiosity is veryimportant.
Yes, this childish curiositytrying it out, now you also have
.
We have one sentence that hastouched me very much.
You said we develop frommountain to mountain.
Our way of life goes over themountains.
That means it is apparentlyeven more than the challenge
(05:15):
what drives you even further.
Speaker 2 (05:18):
Well, I'll put it this way, Philosophically
speaking we are born and we die,and every person has such a way
of life that he has given.
One does it through theprofession, we do it through the
profession and of course, youhope that the way of life, the
motor, is always accompanied bythe passion.
(05:39):
And if we keep this passionthen we can achieve great peaks.
As a metaphor, so you canreally see peaks, like with us,
that's climbing, but you can seepeaks as a metaphor as well.
We have achieved somethinggreat.
(06:01):
We are standing up now.
We have realized a in ourprofessional life.
Our father has put it in our wayour way of life goes over the
mountains.
We climb the mountains, oneafter the other.
Every summit, every achievement, every fall is part of it.
(06:21):
To be able to say at the end oflife, I have understood a lot,
no, that's an inner attitude.
I'll put it this way in thepast you climbed the 11th
difficulty mountain.
Today we climb, maybe not quiteas difficult anymore, but
somehow different.
And today I am on a completelydifferent level than I was back
(06:42):
then.
In that sense I can't take thedifficulty or the steepness of
the wall, the scale ofevaluation, but actually the
inner attitude of where I am.
So every step goes up, becausethe quantity is not decisive but
the quality is decisive is whatI do.
(07:04):
At the end of the day, when I'mold, I'm much further than I
was when I built a big wall inthe Himalayas.
Then I have my biggest mountainin front of me, maybe the step
to take into another life.
Speaker 3 (07:20):
This is very philosophical, but that's what
it's all about in life.
That.
Speaker 2 (07:24):
I can really say at the end of my day I understood
what I did and why.
Speaker 3 (07:33):
And with that you can say that's the fifth dimension
which has changed the picture ofthe mountains.
Speaker 1 (07:38):
That means it is your emotional relationship to this
challenge, to this way of life,to these goals that you set for
yourself.
So how can you deal with it?
Speaker 3 (07:50):
It's quite clear how I deal with it.
Of course, you can alsotransfer it to today's times.
Someone who comes from the city, who has never had anything to
do with mountains, will look atthe Matterhorn very differently
than I do.
Personally, as a mountaineerwho is familiar with
mountaineering, I start to lookfor lines.
Try to imagine what it is likewhen I climb through the wall,
(08:12):
when I stand on top of a summit.
This is actually a real,existing relationship that is
then possibly really carried outonce, this action that I play
through in my mind While theobserver who comes from the
civilization without mountains,from the city, is amazed by
these huge structures.
But it is almost somethingabstract for him because it is
(08:35):
unreachable.
Speaker 2 (08:37):
The vacuum of time is the answer why life is great,
why it's brilliant.
Let's go on, then.
Speaker 1 (08:45):
Because for a manager , let's say, in the automotive
sector, in the bank, in pharma,I think, from the age of 35 to
40, it's an existential question.
Why am I doing this?
Why am I starting a 60-hour day?
Why am I starting to find newsolutions in a crisis and to
find new ways?
What would you say to them?
What does it all come down to?
Speaker 2 (09:03):
It all comes down to passion and the joy of doing
what it's all about.
And there are many people whohave exactly that joy trying to
pull the car out of the dirtagain, for example, and that's
(09:24):
what it's all about.
And you don't have to be amountain climber, you don't have
to be a athlete.
We are athletes.
We need it because if we don'tdo it we're in trouble.
A manager needs this challengereally.
It looks desolate, but throughmy ability, through my
experience also, to take acertain risk, I can maybe make
(09:46):
it that then the numberssuddenly become red again
instead of black.
Speaker 1 (09:54):
I don't come home here.
It's a good number.
Speaker 2 (09:57):
Now I have a red jacket In any case that you pull
the can out of the dirt, that Ipull the can out of the dirt
and then at some point say nowI've done it.
And that's exactly the samemoment when we realized a huge
project that we are standing on,the summit and the title of the
lecture in the vacuum of time,the time is actually.
Speaker 1 (10:18):
Describe this moment.
You both made it very sensitivefor me.
So these moments when you gothrough the wall, through the
wall, yes, what is unimaginablefor me.
But describe it once.
What is there?
How does it look?
Speaker 2 (10:33):
like.
How do you experience?
It is a lightness, an absolutelightness, a clarity, and in the
phase when you have made it,the absolute emptiness is built
in you.
You are in the here and now andthere is nothing around you
anymore, and emptiness initiatesa crazy place in you that can
(10:59):
trigger a firework.
So a joy that is immense.
But you must not make themistake, like many in a company,
that if you have achievedsomething, you immediately go
into the next project.
This being allowed to celebrate, being able to celebrate,
leaving this joy alone, that isthe crucial thing.
Speaker 1 (11:21):
So not filling the vacuum, but letting it in.
Speaker 3 (11:26):
What do you think about this moment?
Speaker 2 (11:30):
I don't want to bring anything religious into play,
but I think, for example DalaiLama is a great philosopher and
he really said a very decisivesentence for the whole area of
life, a very decisive sentencethe greatest art in life is to
be in the here and now.
(11:50):
And that's exactly what we need.
Unfortunately I really have tosay unfortunately we need a tool
.
This tool is climbing.
I can describe it with basejumping and solo there is no
going back.
(12:10):
When I jump away, everything isreduced to the elementary.
There is nothing left.
This image of the tunnel isgreat to use.
We use this tool for our sportsequipment, our actions.
Another can do it with puremeditation, another needs it in
(12:31):
the job to then go through theprocesses.
But ultimately it's reallyabout that here and now and in
our society.
It is totally difficult andthat's why we are so much more,
that's why the politics is somuch more, that's why all the
companies are so much more,because they don't work here and
(12:54):
now and think if they would gothrough this process.
Now I do this and everythingelse is hidden.
Then I can say at some point Icome to this success, that I get
to the top, because I am thensensitized to all things that
are coming towards me dangers,different decisions that I have
(13:16):
to make immediately.
But all these influences fromthe outside, they disturb these
processes and then I can makemistakes.
And that's the decisive thingand in the film some mistakes
have happened that Alexander andI have not done.
Speaker 1 (13:38):
What is Fri Solo?
You also take a project.
Let's say with you, alexander,it is the Dirittissima of the
big zinni, I think that was 2002, that's Fri Solo.
Let's say for non-climbers, youbriefly explain what Fri Solo
is.
What is that?
Speaker 3 (13:53):
Yes, quite simply climbing without any safety
equipment in any form,preferably, of course, in a
larger band or a large band.
That is, a larger or largerband, that means above the
height of the descent.
Then you are without a rope,without a climbing rope, without
everything on the way, and thenyou can clearly say that the
safety of the climber is reducedto the own climbing skills, the
(14:16):
own mental strength.
One is responsible for not downfrom the mountain.
Speaker 1 (14:22):
So let me understand that again, this is a dolomite.
These are the three teeth,these are walls that are five,
six hundred meters highvertically with overhang, and
then you go in.
You have a climbing shoe on abandage, on the magnesium in the
back, and nothing else.
Exactly that means it'sactually such a metaphor.
If I want to take a completelynew path as an entrepreneur, I
(14:45):
don't have an example, I don'thave a reference, I don't know
what the solution is.
I go out into the open sea andthen need strategies on how to
find a new way.
Speaker 3 (14:55):
That's exactly how it is.
Of course you are not allowedto fall into something like that
blindly.
Speaker 1 (14:59):
You have to know the risks very well.
Speaker 3 (15:03):
You should know the difficulties, what can expect
you there, because ultimatelyfalling blindly into such a
company would really mean thatyou would approach such a
project in a harakiri way, andthat could then go well.
Maybe it doesn't go well.
It is clear that I am notdead-cute, but I am happy with
(15:26):
life.
I want to experience life rightnow.
That's why I go through thewall on the solo, that's why I
don't do it in a character way,but I try to get to know exactly
the things, to get to know theroute, to know what is waiting
for me there, so that in the endthe risk is actually estimated
(15:48):
for me.
One thing is clear there is nozero risk.
There is also not in life ingeneral, but here it is
certainly present this risk, butit should be minimal so that I
can say it is worth it to takethis small risk of survival
because in the end I getsomething very special with it.
(16:09):
What?
Speaker 2 (16:10):
we have already spoken about.
Speaker 3 (16:12):
Yes, just a particularly intense experience,
and it should then also be sointense that it remains in my
memory for many, many years.
While, for example, otherthings that that happened in the
same period of time have longdisappeared in the fog of the
past, these things are stillthere.
Speaker 2 (16:30):
Later the idea came up that it would be great to
reach all three peaks on one day, with three difficult routes
within 24 hours.
Speaker 1 (16:44):
So, just as a comparison, has there ever been
such a thing before?
Is this a new land?
Is this something you do everyday?
Speaker 2 (16:51):
No, there has never been this kind of way I practice
before.
That's why this projectattracted me so much, and and I
wanted to combine that with twobase jumps, so to make the
descent fast, withoutcompromises, by jumping from the
small and large zinni to standat the end at the summit of the
(17:13):
western zinni.
Speaker 1 (17:15):
So again, what is base jumping for the non-knowers
?
Speaker 2 (17:18):
Base jumping is actually a relativelypromising,
a quick descent.
You stand on the rock wallabove.
Of course you have to jump to acorresponding point where it
goes really steeply down and youjump down with the parachute
and at a corresponding heightyou pull the parachute and then
(17:40):
the cap opens.
But of course it is verydangerous, because often seconds
decide the reaction, if the caphas not opened properly, that
you immediately decide not to sofrom my ears not only the
project climbing up isimpossible, but also the jumping
(18:00):
down is now also very dangerous.
I'll say it again it's notimpossible at all.
So we talked about challengesbefore.
Try to make it impossible.
We actually know in the end, weknow everything will be
possible.
Only from our side it seemsimpossible at the beginning.
Speaker 3 (18:20):
Okay, that's an exciting point.
Speaker 1 (18:24):
That means you take projects where you say from the
beginning it seems impossible.
So a manager who says from thebeginning, I need a new drive
concept, I need a new medicine,I need a new chemical product,
he could now say so not what Icould imagine, that's already
possible in the next step.
But I take something from thefront and say I don't know how
(18:46):
that could work.
That's the attraction for youExactly.
Speaker 2 (18:48):
That's the attraction for us, and we just need to
think back to history.
50 years ago, no one would havethought that our world is now
set up like this over theinternet over the whole, and it
will go much, much further.
So we don't even know what itwill look like in ten years.
There are science fiction filmsthat were shot 20 years ago are
(19:10):
actually old hat, because it isin fact that it is hit so.
And we also know, in climbing,as as long as there are some
kind of grips, at some pointthere will be a person who will
have the ability to climb.
(19:31):
But is it possible for us?
That's really the question.
Through our experience,training.
But that's exactly theattractive thing that you can
prepare so far, that you canprepare these processes, that we
can say at some point, wow, andtoday is the day where we can
(19:51):
do everything, our entireability, which we have collected
over the years, in this minute,that is, in this day, and then
it is perfect.
Speaker 1 (20:06):
I would like to continue there.
Alex, in a book, the Mountainin Me, you write at a certain
point exactly about thepreparation, how the project
Free Solo can work.
Absolute self-confidence inphysical and mental skills will
surely survive.
Now I can imagine everythingwith physical skills.
(20:26):
You train it and it's a longway.
It's been explained for 25years.
I think it will be moreexciting with the mental skills.
Which ones do you have and howdid you develop them to be able
to handle such a thing?
Speaker 3 (20:42):
I think the most important thing about such
things is that you have acertain visionary power, that
you get an idea of what isfeasible.
There is actually a wonderfulthing from physics from Albert
Einstein, because it is alsoknown his general theory of
relativity.
He built things together thatwere already known to everyone
in science at that time.
All significant elements of thespecial and general theory of
(21:08):
relativity were known, but hewas the only one who had this
visionary power that he couldimagine that it all belongs
together and then also to bringthese powerful things together.
It stayed on and in the end,actually created this huge
breakthrough in the physics.
Ultimately, climbing is nothingelse for us, climbing a
(21:31):
diorites on a risolo.
These were all known elementsthat were already there, only to
pull the whole thing through inthis dimension.
That was then in a pull throughthe whole thing in this
dimension that was then seen asnew, to bring the whole thing
together the 500 meter high wall, the Tiritissima was already
free climbing in 1985 by KurtAlbert, a well-known free
(21:51):
climber.
And to pull through the wholething completely without a rope
was also not something new.
Other climbers have alreadyclimbed routes of this size,
this dimension, free solo.
But the combination of thedifficulty of this wall, then
the steepness of the wall, alsothe orientation that it is a
(22:11):
north side, an alpine terrain,was something new.
In the end I just had to putthe individual elements together
.
You can then also transfer thatto the wall itself.
Personally, I knew every singleclimbing train and I knew every
single climbing train Without adoubt.
I can climb superfrisolo, noproblem.
That's actually the wholedimension.
(22:32):
But in that case you can't bebeaten by the dimension of the
wall.
I can't stand down there andsay, my God, I'll never make it,
it's so big, it's beating me.
I have to dismantle the thingmentally and then just go
through it one by one and fromevery single move I know I've
(22:54):
got it.
Speaker 1 (22:54):
Exactly.
I would like to express that.
Speaker 2 (23:01):
I would like to share that with you, and in my sense
it's actually exactly the same.
As Alexander described,everything has already been done
.
In my project it was jumpedfrom the western sense with the
base shield, from the smallsense from the large sense.
All routes have been passedthrough the red dot x times,
only the composition of all thebuilding blocks.
(23:24):
Nobody has done that yet.
And to lay down this crazymarathon, to have this idea, to
have the courage to put thingstogether and that's what it's
about to lift yourself up infront of everyone else.
Speaker 1 (23:39):
Now, if you say to put the courage together, how do
you prepare yourselfdifferently from Alexander for
his projects?
So, if you do Frisolo and ifyou do this, three, ten, four,
five, there are differences.
Speaker 2 (23:53):
There are no differences at all.
This is discipline, absolutediscipline, planning.
Although we sometimes appear tobe completely free and are
total freaks, we have a veryclear structure.
What does the structure looklike?
What do we imagine?
The structure is actually quitebanal with us, we always try to
(24:14):
keep a very high trainingstandard.
In winter, we train becauseit's fun.
And here we are again in thebanality.
Speaker 3 (24:23):
We do it because it makes us really happy and that's
why we can also keep this highstandard.
Speaker 2 (24:31):
If we no longer have fun climbing, then we should
give up, and we would probablydo something completely
different today.
Speaker 1 (24:38):
So I can say again for me, when I'm on the road as
a company, as a manager, I nowdecide not to do it for the
money, for prestige, foranything, but that you have the
passion, the fun to say from theheart's blood I want that, and
if it's four o'clock at nightand I wake up, then I do it
because my heart is beating forit.
Speaker 2 (25:00):
Exactly.
For some you can really say Imean, that's just somewhere in
today's society a terriblepassion to have, passion for
coal.
For some it is really thepassion to have a lot of money.
Maybe that's the driving forcethat the entrepreneur is always
rising again and again and thenhe should do it from me.
Speaker 1 (25:22):
Hopefully he does something positive with the
money that he can give somethingback to the world again that
can also be a motivation.
Speaker 2 (25:30):
Basis for us is the money, the basis for us to live.
Speaker 3 (25:35):
Our passion can live and that we can feed our
families.
Speaker 2 (25:39):
That's a bit of a different reason for us, and for
us, the passion is.
I'm looking forward to climbingagain tomorrow, to training and
then to do something big again.
Speaker 1 (25:52):
Okay, great, then let's get back to this training
camp.
So you have the project FreeSolo expedition.
You go into the training camp.
You do it with your heart andblood.
How does this mentalpreparation come about?
I mean, that's not the walk.
Speaker 3 (26:08):
It is very important with the whole thing that you
have a long trajectory at all.
What?
Speaker 1 (26:13):
is that.
Speaker 3 (26:14):
With that, of course, you have a trajectory, a
treadmill as a climber, ofcourse, you know your body, your
mind.
You have already met a lot ofmovements and always then,
whether it is an expedition or acombination of turns, with base
jumps.
He has made many jumps, he hasalready climbed many turns in
(26:35):
this difficulty.
Speaker 1 (26:35):
So experience Exactly .
How do I tickle?
How am I in this bordersituation?
How does my body behave?
How does my psyche behave?
I have a lot of experience.
Speaker 2 (26:45):
Homework.
We did the homework.
That's how you have to reduceit, quite banally.
Speaker 3 (26:52):
And then the next project that we are approaching
which really brings us back tothe limits is an extension of
the previous experiences.
We try to include all possibleinformation about this project.
I know the route of theindividual climbing trains, I
know what I am getting into, howmuch time I need where I might
(27:16):
reach my physical limits.
Do I have to take a break inbetween?
And then, when I have all thisinformation, a feeling arises
and then you can really talkabout the gut feeling.
Speaker 1 (27:27):
Ah, now it's getting interesting.
Speaker 3 (27:29):
Ultimately these components come, which cannot be
calculated mathematicallyanymore, but where a feeling
arises from the experience, willit be feasible now or not?
And if you want to quantify ofthe rest, for example, for
example for the jumps thatconnect the climbs, just like
for me, the risk of the restwith the strength, maybe somehow
(27:51):
I'm overwhelmed or not, or itcould break a grip then this gut
feeling has to decide in theend, is it acceptable or not?
Because it cannot be calculatedmathematically, because the
overall requirement of theproject is so complex that it
would never be calculated.
And these are situations thatevery entrepreneur has.
You can have control, you canmake a plan in advance, set up a
(28:14):
strategy for the next ten yearsand make a real business plan.
But ultimately the great expert, the one who simply develops a
feeling, and indeed a realfeeling for it, is the whole
thing really feasible or not?
Because one will recognize, ina large company, in the economic
environment, there are so manycomponents that are not directly
(28:37):
calculable that in the end thedecision simply represents the
leader.
Speaker 2 (28:46):
So it is very important, for example, that the
gut feeling is not calledesoteric.
There are many who always say,yes, I have this feeling and
somehow, why do you have that?
Why do you have that so afeeling, a gut feeling, actually
happens, as Alexander saidwonderfully, from the experience
of the thousand routes that wehave already climbed, from these
(29:11):
dangers that we were allowed toexperience and made the right
decision.
And then it just comes from thesubconscious.
Although we cannot evaluate itat that moment.
Where does this feeling comefrom?
But from the subconscious.
It is then shown and said toyou, thomas or Alexander, you
must not go there now, and nowit's over and you have a very
(29:35):
bad feeling and you don't knowwhere the feeling comes from.
But ultimately, you have'veexperienced that somewhere.
Speaker 1 (29:42):
Can we go a little deeper there, because I think
that's very important now,especially in the
entrepreneurial context.
Yes, decisions are made basedon the gut feeling or based on a
calculation, and often theycan't explain it For you.
I understand.
It's very important when I'm onthe wall after all, it's a
question of life and death thatyou have a skill.
(30:05):
So your director, pepe Dankwarz, wrote about everything.
In this situation of extremevigilance, he takes up all the
impressions of meaning.
He works like a machine.
Now, impressions of meaning,impression and machine somehow
contradictory.
But could you explain to us howthis feeling, this awareness,
(30:28):
what it means, where it comesfrom and how it allows you not
only to survive but to make apioneering achievement, so that
we can shake it up a little?
Speaker 2 (30:38):
Machine actually means to be in the tunnel to do
exactly every step intuitively.
I know I can do it.
Let's go back completely.
Speaker 3 (30:48):
We are in lightness.
Speaker 2 (30:51):
We are in perfection.
It's fun.
We don't even know, we don'teven feel that we are on the
right track.
In the moment when fear comesalong and fear is something that
, in this process of expression,one of our most important
emotions, which we still have,thank God we are afraid.
(31:12):
That is in that moment thisfeeling arises.
I have to make a decisionimmediately, because then I know
hoppala, now everything is notas it should be, now something
is happening.
That's this gut feeling again,and now I just have to decide,
sometimes in a matter of secondsdo I go left, right, quickly on
(31:38):
forward, or stop?
I turn around?
Fear is not a healing factorfor us If the fear.
Speaker 1 (31:50):
As the normal society evaluates, fear is about fear
of God.
Speaker 2 (31:51):
I can't go any further.
I go into the knee.
I can't go any further.
That can, of course, be with ustoo.
When the fear becomes healing,then I know I have crossed this
threshold of the first fear.
And then I'm climbing,unfortunately, in an absolutely
deadly area.
I went over the border.
We are border guards, we go tothe border, but we want to live
(32:15):
and are not not allowed to crossthe border.
Good, what is fear?
Speaker 1 (32:27):
People often have similar situations.
They don't want to know what'snext, and then this fear often
arises.
How do we go on now?
And, as you say, fear is aregulative.
For you, it is very, veryimportant to not push it away
but to deal with it.
And you yourself also write inthe book.
You experience the change offeelings in advance.
(32:48):
Can you now explain to me howyou deal with this change, what
strategies you have to deal withit?
Speaker 3 (32:59):
In principle, this change of feeling is very
noticeable.
It is a serious matter.
I think you can really describeit with the life in a company,
Especially when you are at theforefront and have to make
decisions.
Once you are sure about whatyou are doing, then you have the
conviction, the things arepositive, the grips are solid,
(33:23):
which I use during the climb.
I have the difficulty with thegrip.
The other time comes just thenagain, this eventuality, this
rest risk maybe then somehow amental blackout or that
something in the body does notwork, that I get cramps because
I am not satisfied with this dayor because maybe a grip could
(33:44):
break out.
These are again these blackthoughts and I think it's very
important that you live throughthis exchange of feelings.
Only if you know both sides canyou be convinced at some point
that the argument of the otherside prevails.
And it is especially with sucha thing then, until a certain
(34:04):
moment, possible to makedecisions, until the so-called
point of no return.
Not even below, quasi at thebeginning of the route, but
quite a few meters further upyou can translate it into German
with the last possible turningpoint, maybe in a wall height of
80 meters, there is the firstdifficult climbing point, a
(34:25):
really difficult climbing point.
If I climb over it it is almostimpossible for me to climb back
.
But by this point I have theopportunity to find out which
feeling is more important, whichfeeling wins.
If the black thoughts win, thenalmost too much nervousness is
produced.
Maybe then you could evenbreathe out something like a
(34:50):
panic.
Then I just have to look back,then I have to admit that I
don't have the whole thing undercontrol.
And if it's different, if thepositive feeling wins, if I have
trust in myself, in the powerof my fingers, in my mental
strength, then I can move on.
And you can also convey thatwonderfully, I'll tell you
(35:12):
really to the company.
If the entrepreneur prepares amajor action for his company,
then he will also experiencethis interplay of feelings.
Absolutely, he will beconvinced that it works.
It works.
Then a few more informationcomes in, whether it is not
perhaps too bold such adifficult decision.
(35:33):
And then at some point in thelater course, maybe after he has
prepared the whole thing forthree months, it takes one month
.
In the later period, maybeafter you have prepared the
whole thing for three months,you also need one month, the
moment when it definitely has tobe decided.
Then the feeling has to beright.
If the feeling is not rightthen and you step in and do the
whole thing, then you can reallysuffer a shipwreck as a
(35:55):
businessman.
The important thing is that youexperience this variable
feeling that you know't.
Speaker 1 (36:08):
push myself away from the feelings but that I use
them and observe what ishappening now in which direction
(36:29):
it is going.
But I am totally open and onething is very clear when there
is the point of no return.
Speaker 3 (36:34):
when it was overcome, then, as Thomas Thomas already
said, full force, that's whatPepe Dankwurz described Then you
are in an absolute state ofalertness where you can use your
sensors to observe everythingaround you take it up properly
and pull through.
It seems from the outside like amachine, but of course it is
(36:57):
actually not to be understoodthat way, because it is not a
machine that works, but thehuman being.
But you must not let theemotions slip away like that.
You have to go to work sofocused that you look at it from
the outside.
Actually, I think it's amachine.
Speaker 1 (37:13):
Can you explain it to us from your point of view?
Speaker 2 (37:17):
For me, fear results in a sensibilization, and that's
actually the magic word for me,because sensibilization means
that means also I'm absolutelyawake, my whole sensors are off
and I take this information onwhat is it.
Is the weather good, does itfit?
(37:38):
Okay, it's off, it's off, it'soff, it's off, and then it goes
forward and then the point of noreturn is the point of no
return.
I see myself here at adifficult mountain.
I have this really in front ofme and then I can really go like
a machine and then I can easilywalk, then I don't make any
(38:05):
sense that you look at it fromthe outside and actually think
it's a machine.
Speaker 1 (38:12):
Can you explain that from your point of view?
Speaker 2 (38:15):
For me, fear results in a sensibilization, and that
is actually the magic word forme, because sensibilization
means that, means I amabsolutely awake, all my sensors
are off and never thisinformation on what is the
weather?
Good, it fits, ok, it's okay,it's kicking, kicking, kicking,
(38:39):
kicking, and then it goesforward and then it's the point
of no return.
I see myself here right now ona difficult mountain.
I have this really in front ofme and then I can really go like
a machine and then I can easilygo.
Then I don't have any effort.
When everything goes tough,when everything goes difficult,
then the fear comes with it.
(39:01):
Then I know it actually doesn'tmake sense.
I have to say even better forthe economy, very successful
(39:22):
with my lectures I have alreadytried some with the three senses
, so that works.
Go new ways, make visions.
I also believe that Frisoloworks well, but no topic works
better than this story of speed.
We are climbers and we suddenlydo something new which we have
(39:43):
not done before.
We have to adapt ourselves againto what we throw into one pot
from all the experiences we havegathered.
Now throw them into one pot.
How do we as a team manage tobe faster than an incredible
time?
That was set up back then whereeveryone said nobody can do
(40:03):
that anymore, exactly.
But we had the courage to saywhere everyone else said this
time is not available, and wereally said at the beginning
actually, back then we reallysaid we can never do it.
But that always bothered us.
(40:24):
We can't do it, we can't do it,oh God, why not?
Why can't we do it?
No, because we can't do it.
And then at some point comesmotivation, comes this curiosity
what's behind the corner?
We two, we've already done somuch and we've always been
piqued by others.
(40:45):
You know it, you two are theteam.
And then we said, damn it,let's do it today, and then
let's see.
And then Pepe Dankwart jumpedinto the boat, but Pepe Dankwart
didn't jump blindly into theboat.
We have already proven in thefirst place through a game, that
we can climb a route Zodiacwhich is only 600 meters long,
(41:08):
where we have climbed a fabuloustime in speed one hour and 50
minutes.
Where really good climbers alsoneed three days and the speed
record, the old one is at 8hours.
We really pressed it under twohours and with this know-how we
wanted to get the crown Speedknows.
Speaker 1 (41:27):
Good, and the crown.
Let's take a look at it indetail now.
I can already see the eyes arealready very glassy from you two
.
I think that's great.
Now again from someone who isnot at home, climbing again an
entrepreneur, a manager, in acar, for example what is the
Nose?
What is the speed record toassess?
(41:47):
Where is it?
What is it?
Speaker 2 (41:50):
The speed record on the N was set in 2048, in the
year 2000, by Yushi Hirayama,one of the best climbers of our
time, and Hans Florin, anabsolute speed specialist.
Yushi was the climber, hansbrought the know-how and they
(42:13):
have practically reinvented thisform of climbing speed climbing
and the nose.
It was the first route on theEl Capitan, one of the most
important mountains in climbinghere, really great climbing
history was written by WarrenHarding in 1958.
In 30 days of climbing, thewall first climbed through and
(42:37):
that's really the nose, you canalmost say the navel of the
climbing world.
Speaker 1 (42:43):
The most famous climbing route in the world.
Speaker 2 (42:46):
The madness of the insane.
Speaker 1 (42:49):
Exactly Now.
Let's go through again.
So we have a wall that is about1000 meters vertical granite.
It is in America, in California, yosemite Park, one of you will
know it.
The normal trained rope-lifestake three to five days to get
up there and you have set aspeed record.
(43:11):
So to get up there as quicklyas possible from the existing 2
hours and 48 minutes, that means, so to speak, to raise the bar
again.
You just spoke of the Japanese,what they have brought.
Now we come to a very excitingcomponent for you as a team,
which we also find in companies,and I would like to dig out a
little bit of what distinguishesthe beautiful new word high
(43:33):
performance team.
So to deliver absolute topperformance.
With what different know-how doyou get there?
If you look at it twice, whatdo you bring with you?
Speaker 3 (43:44):
It's quite simple that every person is, of course,
an absolute individual.
Thomas and I do not onlydistinguish ourselves physically
, but also mentally andspiritually.
But that is also seen asstrength, because whenever a
team works well, that is, cancombine strengths optimally and
eliminate weaknesses, then it isparticularly successful when
(44:09):
the weaknesses and strengths arealso applied to different
people, that is, if a team wouldtake part that consists of two
parts that are completelyidentical, then we could not
eliminate the weaknesses and notcombine the strengths, because
then everyone would have thesame strengths and the same
weaknesses.
Ideally it is just like that.
If they do not fit togetherperfectly at first glance, but
(44:33):
then they have the ability touse the respective strengths and
to use the strength of theother in the case of weaknesses,
thomas, please.
And I think we can do that verywell because we have been
together since we were children.
We have known each other foreternity, as brothers, of course
, and the longer you know eachother, the better and more
(44:56):
efficient you work witheliminating weaknesses and
combining strengths.
Speaker 1 (45:01):
So I heard know yourself, know yourself, know
the others, know the strengthsso that you can eliminate
weaknesses.
What is the package you areworking with?
Speaker 2 (45:12):
So the package on the nose, so I would say high
performance team.
That's actually about theperfect team, and I always
explain it in my lectures, thatin all team trainings they
(45:34):
always say the same thingEliminate weaknesses, eliminate
strengths, catch one or theother, but that only leads to
the perfect team.
High Performance Team means,first of all, you yourself.
So Alexander himself.
He has prepared himself 100%for this action, and I also 100%
(45:58):
prepared myself.
I worked on my weaknesses.
Where my weaknesses were, Itried to level them out, and so
did Alexander.
And only then, when everyonehas done their homework 100%,
that everyone can do everythingfor themselves, mentally strong,
physically, absolutely 100%,then the incredible and
(46:23):
wonderful thing happens that weare both in the blind
combination.
And then it does not happenthat one plus one that results
in 2, as a perfect combination,but can grow beyond that, so
that the imaginary number 3results, which actually never
(46:44):
exists.
But that is for me the highperformance team.
So the basis is lies withAlexander himself.
Speaker 1 (46:55):
That means you lead or you lead.
Now.
To say concretely, if you wanta high performance team, it
means first and foremost highperformance yourself, only
yourself, only yourself.
And high performance itselfmeans, of course, to have his
strengths.
But you say not only to havethe strengths but to develop the
weaknesses that you have.
Speaker 2 (47:17):
And to develop, because I must not expect that
my team mate tries to compensatefor my weaknesses, and that's
what it's all about.
And that's what it's all aboutin training the, the, the, the,
(47:37):
the, the, the, the, the.
Speaker 1 (47:48):
The, the, the, the, the, the.
Now we talk to NOS.
Do you talk to each other andsay, thomas, you have to give it
a little bit of gas, becauseyou're not that far in that area
yet.
So how is the dynamics with you?
How is it going?
Speaker 3 (48:00):
Yes, that's actually the case.
We actually split up whenpreparing for NOS.
We were on the road withvarious other climbing partners
because Thomas had to trainother routes than me.
And you clearly stick to thatbecause you say, thomas, you
just have to get a little faster.
Thomas said to me you couldprobably only get a little time
(48:22):
out of it, and then you trainthese weak points.
So that's pretty clear.
In order to work optimally as ateam, you have to be strong as
an individual and that meanseliminating the weak weaknesses
as much as possible.
What I said before then laterin the combination in the team,
(48:43):
it is still still still superefficient if you expand the
weaknesses even further bytrying to eliminate the
weaknesses in the team bycombining the strengths.
Speaker 2 (48:55):
And I say in climbing , there are so many moments
where, even if I am in the lead,due to an error from Alexander,
who is now in the second leg,or reversed, I can dangerously
endanger the lead If I make amistake and turn around.
(49:15):
It's the same we are connectedto in life and we try to, step
by step, even though we can doit 100%, to tap into the 100%
(49:37):
mark.
We have to be 100% aware ofthese dangers as much as
possible.
Now I am in a life threateningsituation and then try to
minimize this second so that thetime of mortality increases to
zero, and that makes thisproject so complicated.
Speaker 1 (50:04):
Dean Potter said in a movie I think that fits quite
well it's not about being betterthan others in life, but about
finding your own bestperformance, your own limit.
Is that one of the essences ofwhat it's about?
As a team In competition, youare brothers anyway.
You are competitors from home,but competition is beneficial
(50:25):
because everyone is looking fortheir best performance.
Speaker 3 (50:28):
That's exactly the case in this case.
This positive competition whichalso I can say, which is the
basis of our success, is notbecause I envy my't envy him,
but I just want to bring up newmotivation, train myself to get
(50:59):
there myself, because in the endit is like that the world is
always full of training.
There are always hundreds andthousands of actions worldwide,
no matter in which area for usimportant mountain climbing that
happen, and that's about whatmy brother is doing right now,
but that I do it myself.
And there can always be ahigher performance of my brother
(51:26):
.
Only a motivation.
And if that's the case, thenit's just positive competition
because it drives you to onething.
And that's exactly the same inthe field of science, science in
the field of companies.
It's not about that you envythe other, that he's done
something good again, exactly,thank you very much.
Speaker 1 (51:45):
But that you just give gas yourself, that you give
gas yourself.
So the energy does not goagainst another in the
competition, but the energy goesinto itself.
To stack up.
Up to say, I still find ahigher performance from me.
Speaker 3 (52:00):
That is the best corporate culture.
Speaker 1 (52:02):
That's what we're actually looking for and what
you both experience.
You are alpha animals yourselfevery individual and you give
gas for each other.
You enjoy that.
Speaker 3 (52:14):
I think it's very decisive.
Now I would.
In the record I see nothing buta motivation to make it even
better, to make it even better.
Speaker 2 (52:21):
And now it goes of course here we asked ourselves
some yes, you know, yes, do youwant to crack the record again?
And so on, and we said, no, weare not interested at the moment
because we are now going acompletely different way, a
different way.
We have proven that we cancrack it through our know-how,
through our ability and passion,and we could today, I'm sure.
Speaker 3 (52:44):
Alexander if we drove around, we would have great
ideas.
Speaker 2 (52:49):
I have to be honest in my head at the moment when we
were driving to San Francisco,we said New impulses, new ideas.
Speaker 1 (52:55):
There we were immediately driving the car
there to San Francisco, we saidthere were new impulses new
techniques.
We were immediately driving thecar hey.
Speaker 2 (52:59):
Alexander, now we really want to rebuild it like
this.
We could really get anotherquarter of an hour out In the
process.
We were just in with thisstrategy.
We were pretty much on the edge.
We could have been better infour minutes if we run down a
little bit, but not faster.
But we already have somethingin mind.
(53:21):
But I really think that we canbe faster for a while, maybe
even 20 minutes.
Speaker 1 (53:25):
So there are immediately strategies to say
from the knowledge of how youdid it, there are ideas to push
it forward Now.
Speaker 2 (53:35):
I would like to go into to the failure very short,
but I still want to saysomething.
Speaker 1 (53:38):
Now I'm in there, why , why why?
Speaker 2 (53:40):
do we do that because we and that is really a
wonderful word and the child outof joy and passion, because we
are eager, the great achievementthat we it.
And then we have this curiositywhere we again tussle every
single step in there.
(54:01):
And if we do that, that's right.
Speaker 1 (54:05):
That's what we would bring on.
Speaker 2 (54:07):
That's just when we take on different companies,
this curiosity, this childhood,this childishness, this joy,
then it often happens, then itworks completely differently and
much better and much easier.
Speaker 1 (54:33):
With Fieber.
Fever was the keyword.
So when watching a movie calledOn the Limit, when it knocked
you down, I was very feverishand I always asked myself the
question how do you go fromfailure to success?
Because I could also say now itknocked me down, the project is
(54:54):
no longer for me, we give it upnow.
Now we do something else.
Exactly, you don't do that.
The question is not you did it,you also achieved the record at
some point.
The question for me is how doyou digest that?
Speaker 2 (55:11):
I have digested it very quickly.
I mean my failure, because Icould explain it somewhere.
To be honest, I didn't gothrough the failure, the fall of
Alexander that quickly.
It was pretty close to me,especially because it didn't
(55:32):
affect me myself, but my bestfriend, my life partner, my
brother, with whom I have beenconnected since birth.
But it only kept me in themirror again and again, and
that's where I also shaped thissentence in the moment, when you
(55:54):
are on the road dangerously,you are safe on the road, and it
applies to our two disastersthat we experienced there 100%.
There are two differentdisasters that we experienced
there.
Alexander, it happens in anarea where there was a hiking
(56:17):
terrain for him.
He knew exactly that he wasgoing up a slight rock and at
that moment he was not 100%prepared because he wanted.
Sure he would have knocked itoff, he would have focused it,
it would not have happened.
Speaker 3 (56:43):
Because he was standing above all else and
above all else, it was just thismoment exactly on myself, not
(57:05):
100% attentive.
Then the intervention breaksout, and then it was actually
already so that I could nolonger control the course of
things myself.
I could only react.
Thank God I reacted correctlyand protected my life.
The result was a further injurythat made climbing impossible.
At that moment, the filming ofthe film was, of course, at its
(57:31):
limit.
Our entire project wascompleted.
It was clear that everythinghad to be cancelled.
It was also not clear whetherthe film would continue, but I
was very clear that the projectwould continue.
We would return to it, and thatwas actually the most important
thing for me at that moment,because it was the thing that
(57:54):
was in my heart that I laterexpanded it with the cinema film
.
That it was possible again thatwe continue the project was, of
course, wonderful.
We also returned with the goalof pulling through the whole
thing.
That we would then get aproblem again with the speed
test.
That would have been a problemagain.
(58:18):
You can say that the i-tool wasalmost on the film.
Thomas and I gave it our alland made our first really sharp
attempt, and what happens isthat you climb powerfully to the
limit.
This also causes a little bitof precision underneath and you
(58:41):
can't take every step and everygrip as exactly as you should
normally do.
Thomas just slipped away.
Whenever you go on speed, youare not so optimally secured
mostly not so optimally secured.
Thomas was just a huge fallcyclist was just wearing
blisters not particularlyserious, but heavy bruises and
(59:03):
it was just clear that the speedrecord is now really also at
this session, simply there.
The shooting had to be completedand then the film came
Ultimately in the cinemaswithout success, or at least not
with success on the screen.
And what we could of coursecomplain about at the time we
(59:25):
wanted to see our success on thescreen of victory is seen in a
film.
Then the invasions are missing,because the euphoria just
overcomes everything.
Believe me, guys, the film willbe very strong, especially
because I didn't win in thiscase.
(59:47):
And of course we were alsoasked by the press how it is
when you have to present a filmabout failure in public.
I answered him like this Look atthe film and you will see at
the end of the film.
It is very broad.
On the cable car, thomas andAlexander will travel so long in
the Seasemmel Valley until theyhave fulfilled their dream and
(01:00:09):
actually, we have not given upour dream yet, because we also
felt that we have a chance toget this record.
We wanted to stay with thisgame and that's why we went to
the Semi-Tour Valley six monthslater, and that's the real
highlight of the whole project.
We then prepared intensivelyand, of course, after we learned
(01:00:34):
the mistakes from the mistakes,we got this record in October,
and that was the perfect end forus, the.
I would like to come back tothe failure of the nose, you
(01:01:19):
give full speed.
Speaker 2 (01:01:20):
That's true, but you can still set up this failure
much more complexly, as itreally was.
We were at the beginning.
We took a three-day break.
We were actually optimallyrelaxed.
The we were actually alreadyoptimally rested.
The previous attempt was soperfect on our part.
(01:01:40):
We made a few mistakes, put alot of time into it.
It was a half-sharp attempt.
Speaker 3 (01:01:49):
We were rested upstairs and said 3 hours and 10
minutes, 3 hours and 10 minutes.
Speaker 1 (01:01:54):
There it goes 3 hours and 10 minutes.
That's it.
We had so many reservations.
Speaker 2 (01:01:56):
We were not afraid.
It was so much fun.
We laughed, we discussed.
It was awesome.
Now we have passed three days.
I had a slight cold.
I always took homeopathic drops.
I would have had a slightinfection, probably because of
the breathing.
I had a slight cold, but Ialways took homeopathic drops.
I think I had a rough neckbecause of the breathing and a
(01:02:18):
slight infection due to thisstrain.
I got a stroke and thenAlexander had something on his
neck.
It was a torn circle and hesaid I'll stand at the entrance.
Pepe Dankwart was at the top ofthe elevator with the camera
team, two camera teams in thewall below a camera team waiting
(01:02:40):
for us to slide away.
And on that day we had thisurge to say Alexander doesn't
feel 100%.
We are confident that we cangive 100%.
We know we can make the record,but it is too dangerous.
Alexander was massaged.
That day we broke everything.
(01:03:01):
Pepe Dankwart stayed upstairs,he hiked upstairs and the camera
people hiked upstairs too.
Again, kitchen crew up, foodbrought up.
So the next day we stand againdown on the edge and then it was
Thomas's turn and on that day,strangely enough, I had the
feeling that it was not working.
(01:03:22):
It just doesn't work.
We are back to this strange gutfeeling, but then to say again
today we break down again.
Then the director turns usupside down Because the people
are hanging, hanging in the wall.
Speaker 1 (01:03:36):
You also have responsibility towards the other
person.
Speaker 2 (01:03:39):
And then we just said at some point okay, let's try
it.
And we started climbing and wehad such breakthrough times when
we knew exactly are we ready,are we not ready?
And we kept it in and theseconcerns from my side were blown
away.
Alexander was great on that day.
He was doing well again.
(01:04:00):
But then suddenly there was onestep for me where I thought
during the pre-reaction attemptno, no, no, no, no, no, no, no,
no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no,no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no,
no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no,no, no, no, no, no, no fear at
all.
Hey, he laughs so brilliantly.
It's crazy.
And on that day came thisfeedback where I was right at
(01:04:20):
the point.
This is a voice from theoutside that called me Thomas.
How are you Well today?
I somehow have Now when I flythere.
Just this thought came suddenlyToday when I fly there fuck me,
I'm here for.
Speaker 3 (01:04:37):
God's sake, you heard in the movie that you briefly
said Alexander, watch out, I'mnot feeling too good today.
I'm not feeling too good.
Speaker 2 (01:04:45):
And then I climbed into the Great Roof.
Then I had a energy loss.
From one moment to the next Istarted to tremble, I started to
fear, I started to sneeze.
I was completely dehydrated.
Alexander came after me.
I came to the first cameraman,franz.
I wanted to tell him in thecamera that he was hanging there
(01:05:07):
, but before that, a huge attackby Pepe Dankwart happened
Because he talked to me.
Now I wanted to tell Franz.
Franz, I can't do it anymore.
I can't do it anymore.
Franz just looked away andfilmed me and I immediately knew
Franz, you can't talk to meanymore.
I climbed the next ropeCompletely in fear.
(01:05:29):
I only had two ropes to lead.
We were still on record.
I only had two aiming standingat the stand.
(01:05:52):
I came by Thomas, you're doinggreat, come on, you're on record
, come on.
I said to the aiming I can'tanymore.
I can't anymore.
Come on, thomas, you do it.
You do it, you do it.
And then I said fuck shit.
I pulled the rope again.
Somehow I wanted to stop, butthe body did what the other one
(01:06:14):
told me I make the knot, climbfurther in tremble, climb up.
Alexander came by and at thatmoment my foot slipped away.
I fall.
Everything was over.
Speaker 1 (01:06:26):
So my feeling said my fear told me everything told me
.
All signals said not today.
Everything told me to stop.
Speaker 2 (01:06:36):
From the outside, it was projected.
I was always told to keep going.
Speaker 3 (01:06:41):
It was so close the last 50 meters, thomas would
have had to go.
Speaker 2 (01:06:49):
And then I have to say honestly we failed With a
great teaching.
We failed twice the greatteaching, even if it's easy be
sensitized, because there arethe greatest dangers.
Secondly, no power in the worldshould ever again tell us what
(01:07:13):
we have to do and what we haveto admit, the fear that we are
allowed to say no.
And here is stop, even if it isembarrassing, even if it is
embarrassing, even if a companysays I can't go on anymore, I
have to stop now, Even ifsociety criticizes it.
(01:07:38):
But that's the best thing at themoment.
It's better in politics if yougo into politics Often in
politics to hide the whole thing.
We go a little over it, butthat's wrong.
Speaker 1 (01:07:54):
So what you say now, that failure leads to success,
always stay in this alertness,even if it seems to be smaller
things.
So give it a full sense.
As you said, your sensorsdirect you and see if it is
today.
Is it the situation now?
Are the circumstances there togo to the border area now?
(01:08:16):
And maybe that's exactly thesuccess factor that you then
also learn for the nextpioneering performance, because
it comes from you, from yourinner self, to understand how we
tick, how we can do it, havethe know-how and expand on a new
situation.
And that is perhaps theconclusion.
(01:08:48):
I mentioned it earlier.
It touched me very much whatyou said in the interview.
I want to find my inner summitwhen climbing a mountain.
What does that mean for you andwhat could that mean for a
company, a manager?
What is the inner summit?
Speaker 3 (01:09:04):
I can explain that we go to the mountains because we
try to create very specialmemories and just then, when we
(01:09:25):
set special goals, we go throughthem.
Then we create so intensememories that they remain, say
that in 20, 30 years I willremember it as an absolutely
intense memory, because otherthings have long been forgotten
and what I can do with it issimply a very richly illustrated
, colorful page in the book ofmy memories because, let's be
(01:09:47):
honest, it does not only dependon the number of years lived in
life, but actually much more onthis book of memories.
We are just trying to create aparticularly rich book of
memories through this mountainclimbing, through these projects
that we take up in the mountainclimbing, and that is the value
of life for me.
(01:10:08):
This is my very personal innersummit that I am trying to reach
.
Speaker 2 (01:10:14):
From my side, it is more of a step that I go up, and
I have always said that my lifepath goes over the mountains.
It is my means to find the verytop, to reach God or to reach
the next dimension.
One doesn't have to bereligious so I see the end in
(01:10:47):
earthly life.
It is probably the last breathyou take on this world that you
look out again and then saythank you very much, I
experienced it and I did it, andthat is then the inner summit
and that's what it's all about,that I can then peacefully close
(01:11:09):
my eyes.
So that's how you would imagineit Without fear, without
anything.
And if you get that far, thenyou have made it.
If you don't, then you know youhave done something wrong.
Speaker 1 (01:11:30):
I definitely have a very thick book of memories from
today's conversation with youboth To understand a sensational
art how you tip, how you sit onit, how you bring these
performances.
I have also learned a lot aboutlife without having to go into
(01:11:52):
the wall myself.
I would, as Re Reinhold Messnersays, I would start with the
idea of it in short.
But I got the courage to gofurther, on my inner peak, and
to have such conversations, toshow new ways for entrepreneurs,
and I hope we will meet againand then see where we are.
I thank you, sakrisch, for thetwo great conversations, for the
(01:12:15):
hours, for the preparation andyou have a good time.
Stay healthy, stay alive foryour family, but also for
everyone who can learn from you.
Thank you very much.
Welcome to Fresh Ideas.
Today we are in Bad Reichenhall, namely at the Huberbum.
The Huberbums are the probablybelong to the world's top of the
extreme climbers, now knownthrough the film Am Limit
through advertising spots.
What we are particularlyinterested in today is how they
do this for themselves, pioneerservices, ie these inner
(00:44):
processes, how they take placewith you, once everyone for
himself, so Thomas Alexander,and then together in the team.
How this takes place togetheras a high performance team.
Look forward to theconversation.
There will be a lot of it,thank you.
Speaker 2 (01:05):
To do things that others are not doing Exactly,
and that's why we are differentfrom everyone else.
You have to place yourselfsomewhere in the business, in
your professional life,everywhere, and if you are
basically great but basically dothe same as Hinz and the same,
then you are actually a numberamong many who are good.
(01:30):
But to be completely differentagain, you have to develop
completely new things.
There is, for example, a doctorwho is just like in the economy
.
I don't know what the doctor'sname is.
Speaker 3 (01:43):
Eckart von Hirschhausen.
Speaker 2 (01:44):
Exactly.
He makes comedy and it worksperfectly, and that's why he's
booked.
And there we are at the secondpoint.
Speaker 1 (01:57):
Only through humor you can achieve something, and
that's exactly what fascinatesand excites me about you when
(02:23):
you're in the mountains in me,so what you do is sensational.
So I get goose bumps, andcertainly others too.
But rather the question of theinner process.
I also said that the innerclimbing, yes, these mental
stories and you two are notidentical, but each one is a bit
different.
And to peel that out once, howdo you, Alex, and how do you,
(02:44):
Thomas, deal with this extremesituation?
And then I would like toexplain the second part, because
that is simply very special foryou.
How do you deal with each otherin a team to create such a
pioneering performance?
So what's different there andwhat can I learn from it?
In business, I already said,Thomas, you are a professional
in the expedition area andAlexander is, I think I
(03:06):
understood it, a free soloexpert At the absolute top of
the world.
And I would like to explain thequestion at the beginning what
really motivates you, what isthe driving force for what you
are doing here and in thepreparation, especially in the
broadcast of Markus Lanz?
Something very appealed to meFirst of all, when I asked
(03:26):
Alexander, you said we approachthings that we cannot predict at
the outset.
That is the essence of alpinism.
Can you explain a little bitwhat the driving force behind it
is?
Speaker 3 (03:37):
Yes, quite simply.
If I would always realizeprojects that I have been
successful, successful from thebeginning keep it to 100%
successful, then it's actuallyboring.
It's a familiar path.
We know that we want to reachthe limit.
Only then is it somethingextraordinary.
(03:59):
If someone says I'm Mr 100%Success, then he can never
really go to his limit, becausegoing to the limit means failing
or making mistakes is a forcedpart of it.
And that's why, when I go tothe limit, the outcome is never
(04:23):
predictable.
It can be that you have asuccess.
It may be that you have to pullback again because you realize
it doesn't work this time.
The great art in this isperhaps to appreciate things
realistically, and if you say,okay, that was your setback, it
didn't work, then you shouldjust reflect and ask yourself
(04:45):
but have I grown in principle?
And if I have grown inprinciple, then it simply means
staying true to it.
Speaker 2 (04:53):
What is behind it?
Speaker 1 (04:55):
The challenge.
Let me get in there a littlebit.
You said curiosity is veryimportant.
Yes, this childish curiositytrying it out, now you also have
.
We have one sentence that hastouched me very much.
You said we develop frommountain to mountain.
Our way of life goes over themountains.
That means it is apparentlyeven more than the challenge
(05:15):
what drives you even further.
Speaker 2 (05:18):
Well, I'll put it this way, Philosophically
speaking we are born and we die,and every person has such a way
of life that he has given.
One does it through theprofession, we do it through the
profession and of course, youhope that the way of life, the
motor, is always accompanied bythe passion.
(05:39):
And if we keep this passionthen we can achieve great peaks.
As a metaphor, so you canreally see peaks, like with us,
that's climbing, but you can seepeaks as a metaphor as well.
We have achieved somethinggreat.
(06:01):
We are standing up now.
We have realized a in ourprofessional life.
Our father has put it in our wayour way of life goes over the
mountains.
We climb the mountains, oneafter the other.
Every summit, every achievement, every fall is part of it.
(06:21):
To be able to say at the end oflife, I have understood a lot,
no, that's an inner attitude.
I'll put it this way in thepast you climbed the 11th
difficulty mountain.
Today we climb, maybe not quiteas difficult anymore, but
somehow different.
And today I am on a completelydifferent level than I was back
(06:42):
then.
In that sense I can't take thedifficulty or the steepness of
the wall, the scale ofevaluation, but actually the
inner attitude of where I am.
So every step goes up, becausethe quantity is not decisive but
the quality is decisive is whatI do.
(07:04):
At the end of the day, when I'mold, I'm much further than I
was when I built a big wall inthe Himalayas.
Then I have my biggest mountainin front of me, maybe the step
to take into another life.
Speaker 3 (07:20):
This is very philosophical, but that's what
it's all about in life.
That.
Speaker 2 (07:24):
I can really say at the end of my day I understood
what I did and why.
Speaker 3 (07:33):
And with that you can say that's the fifth dimension
which has changed the picture ofthe mountains.
Speaker 1 (07:38):
That means it is your emotional relationship to this
challenge, to this way of life,to these goals that you set for
yourself.
So how can you deal with it?
Speaker 3 (07:50):
It's quite clear how I deal with it.
Of course, you can alsotransfer it to today's times.
Someone who comes from the city, who has never had anything to
do with mountains, will look atthe Matterhorn very differently
than I do.
Personally, as a mountaineerwho is familiar with
mountaineering, I start to lookfor lines.
Try to imagine what it is likewhen I climb through the wall,
(08:12):
when I stand on top of a summit.
This is actually a real,existing relationship that is
then possibly really carried outonce, this action that I play
through in my mind While theobserver who comes from the
civilization without mountains,from the city, is amazed by
these huge structures.
But it is almost somethingabstract for him because it is
(08:35):
unreachable.
Speaker 2 (08:37):
The vacuum of time is the answer why life is great,
why it's brilliant.
Let's go on, then.
Speaker 1 (08:45):
Because for a manager , let's say, in the automotive
sector, in the bank, in pharma,I think, from the age of 35 to
40, it's an existential question.
Why am I doing this?
Why am I starting a 60-hour day?
Why am I starting to find newsolutions in a crisis and to
find new ways?
What would you say to them?
What does it all come down to?
Speaker 2 (09:03):
It all comes down to passion and the joy of doing
what it's all about.
And there are many people whohave exactly that joy trying to
pull the car out of the dirtagain, for example, and that's
(09:24):
what it's all about.
And you don't have to be amountain climber, you don't have
to be a athlete.
We are athletes.
We need it because if we don'tdo it we're in trouble.
A manager needs this challengereally.
It looks desolate, but throughmy ability, through my
experience also, to take acertain risk, I can maybe make
(09:46):
it that then the numberssuddenly become red again
instead of black.
Speaker 1 (09:54):
I don't come home here.
It's a good number.
Speaker 2 (09:57):
Now I have a red jacket In any case that you pull
the can out of the dirt, that Ipull the can out of the dirt
and then at some point say nowI've done it.
And that's exactly the samemoment when we realized a huge
project that we are standing on,the summit and the title of the
lecture in the vacuum of time,the time is actually.
Speaker 1 (10:18):
Describe this moment.
You both made it very sensitivefor me.
So these moments when you gothrough the wall, through the
wall, yes, what is unimaginablefor me.
But describe it once.
What is there?
How does it look?
Speaker 2 (10:33):
like.
How do you experience?
It is a lightness, an absolutelightness, a clarity, and in the
phase when you have made it,the absolute emptiness is built
in you.
You are in the here and now andthere is nothing around you
anymore, and emptiness initiatesa crazy place in you that can
(10:59):
trigger a firework.
So a joy that is immense.
But you must not make themistake, like many in a company,
that if you have achievedsomething, you immediately go
into the next project.
This being allowed to celebrate, being able to celebrate,
leaving this joy alone, that isthe crucial thing.
Speaker 1 (11:21):
So not filling the vacuum, but letting it in.
Speaker 3 (11:26):
What do you think about this moment?
Speaker 2 (11:30):
I don't want to bring anything religious into play,
but I think, for example DalaiLama is a great philosopher and
he really said a very decisivesentence for the whole area of
life, a very decisive sentencethe greatest art in life is to
be in the here and now.
(11:50):
And that's exactly what we need.
Unfortunately I really have tosay unfortunately we need a tool
.
This tool is climbing.
I can describe it with basejumping and solo there is no
going back.
(12:10):
When I jump away, everything isreduced to the elementary.
There is nothing left.
This image of the tunnel isgreat to use.
We use this tool for our sportsequipment, our actions.
Another can do it with puremeditation, another needs it in
(12:31):
the job to then go through theprocesses.
But ultimately it's reallyabout that here and now and in
our society.
It is totally difficult andthat's why we are so much more,
that's why the politics is somuch more, that's why all the
companies are so much more,because they don't work here and
(12:54):
now and think if they would gothrough this process.
Now I do this and everythingelse is hidden.
Then I can say at some point Icome to this success, that I get
to the top, because I am thensensitized to all things that
are coming towards me dangers,different decisions that I have
(13:16):
to make immediately.
But all these influences fromthe outside, they disturb these
processes and then I can makemistakes.
And that's the decisive thingand in the film some mistakes
have happened that Alexander andI have not done.
Speaker 1 (13:38):
What is Fri Solo?
You also take a project.
Let's say with you, alexander,it is the Dirittissima of the
big zinni, I think that was 2002, that's Fri Solo.
Let's say for non-climbers, youbriefly explain what Fri Solo
is.
What is that?
Speaker 3 (13:53):
Yes, quite simply climbing without any safety
equipment in any form,preferably, of course, in a
larger band or a large band.
That is, a larger or largerband, that means above the
height of the descent.
Then you are without a rope,without a climbing rope, without
everything on the way, and thenyou can clearly say that the
safety of the climber is reducedto the own climbing skills, the
(14:16):
own mental strength.
One is responsible for not downfrom the mountain.
Speaker 1 (14:22):
So let me understand that again, this is a dolomite.
These are the three teeth,these are walls that are five,
six hundred meters highvertically with overhang, and
then you go in.
You have a climbing shoe on abandage, on the magnesium in the
back, and nothing else.
Exactly that means it'sactually such a metaphor.
If I want to take a completelynew path as an entrepreneur, I
(14:45):
don't have an example, I don'thave a reference, I don't know
what the solution is.
I go out into the open sea andthen need strategies on how to
find a new way.
Speaker 3 (14:55):
That's exactly how it is.
Of course you are not allowedto fall into something like that
blindly.
Speaker 1 (14:59):
You have to know the risks very well.
Speaker 3 (15:03):
You should know the difficulties, what can expect
you there, because ultimatelyfalling blindly into such a
company would really mean thatyou would approach such a
project in a harakiri way, andthat could then go well.
Maybe it doesn't go well.
It is clear that I am notdead-cute, but I am happy with
(15:26):
life.
I want to experience life rightnow.
That's why I go through thewall on the solo, that's why I
don't do it in a character way,but I try to get to know exactly
the things, to get to know theroute, to know what is waiting
for me there, so that in the endthe risk is actually estimated
(15:48):
for me.
One thing is clear there is nozero risk.
There is also not in life ingeneral, but here it is
certainly present this risk, butit should be minimal so that I
can say it is worth it to takethis small risk of survival
because in the end I getsomething very special with it.
(16:09):
What?
Speaker 2 (16:10):
we have already spoken about.
Speaker 3 (16:12):
Yes, just a particularly intense experience,
and it should then also be sointense that it remains in my
memory for many, many years.
While, for example, otherthings that that happened in the
same period of time have longdisappeared in the fog of the
past, these things are stillthere.
Speaker 2 (16:30):
Later the idea came up that it would be great to
reach all three peaks on one day, with three difficult routes
within 24 hours.
Speaker 1 (16:44):
So, just as a comparison, has there ever been
such a thing before?
Is this a new land?
Is this something you do everyday?
Speaker 2 (16:51):
No, there has never been this kind of way I practice
before.
That's why this projectattracted me so much, and and I
wanted to combine that with twobase jumps, so to make the
descent fast, withoutcompromises, by jumping from the
small and large zinni to standat the end at the summit of the
(17:13):
western zinni.
Speaker 1 (17:15):
So again, what is base jumping for the non-knowers
?
Speaker 2 (17:18):
Base jumping is actually a relativelypromising,
a quick descent.
You stand on the rock wallabove.
Of course you have to jump to acorresponding point where it
goes really steeply down and youjump down with the parachute
and at a corresponding heightyou pull the parachute and then
(17:40):
the cap opens.
But of course it is verydangerous, because often seconds
decide the reaction, if the caphas not opened properly, that
you immediately decide not to sofrom my ears not only the
project climbing up isimpossible, but also the jumping
(18:00):
down is now also very dangerous.
I'll say it again it's notimpossible at all.
So we talked about challengesbefore.
Try to make it impossible.
We actually know in the end, weknow everything will be
possible.
Only from our side it seemsimpossible at the beginning.
Speaker 3 (18:20):
Okay, that's an exciting point.
Speaker 1 (18:24):
That means you take projects where you say from the
beginning it seems impossible.
So a manager who says from thebeginning, I need a new drive
concept, I need a new medicine,I need a new chemical product,
he could now say so not what Icould imagine, that's already
possible in the next step.
But I take something from thefront and say I don't know how
(18:46):
that could work.
That's the attraction for youExactly.
Speaker 2 (18:48):
That's the attraction for us, and we just need to
think back to history.
50 years ago, no one would havethought that our world is now
set up like this over theinternet over the whole, and it
will go much, much further.
So we don't even know what itwill look like in ten years.
There are science fiction filmsthat were shot 20 years ago are
(19:10):
actually old hat, because it isin fact that it is hit so.
And we also know, in climbing,as as long as there are some
kind of grips, at some pointthere will be a person who will
have the ability to climb.
(19:31):
But is it possible for us?
That's really the question.
Through our experience,training.
But that's exactly theattractive thing that you can
prepare so far, that you canprepare these processes, that we
can say at some point, wow, andtoday is the day where we can
(19:51):
do everything, our entireability, which we have collected
over the years, in this minute,that is, in this day, and then
it is perfect.
Speaker 1 (20:06):
I would like to continue there.
Alex, in a book, the Mountainin Me, you write at a certain
point exactly about thepreparation, how the project
Free Solo can work.
Absolute self-confidence inphysical and mental skills will
surely survive.
Now I can imagine everythingwith physical skills.
(20:26):
You train it and it's a longway.
It's been explained for 25years.
I think it will be moreexciting with the mental skills.
Which ones do you have and howdid you develop them to be able
to handle such a thing?
Speaker 3 (20:42):
I think the most important thing about such
things is that you have acertain visionary power, that
you get an idea of what isfeasible.
There is actually a wonderfulthing from physics from Albert
Einstein, because it is alsoknown his general theory of
relativity.
He built things together thatwere already known to everyone
in science at that time.
All significant elements of thespecial and general theory of
(21:08):
relativity were known, but hewas the only one who had this
visionary power that he couldimagine that it all belongs
together and then also to bringthese powerful things together.
It stayed on and in the end,actually created this huge
breakthrough in the physics.
Ultimately, climbing is nothingelse for us, climbing a
(21:31):
diorites on a risolo.
These were all known elementsthat were already there, only to
pull the whole thing through inthis dimension.
That was then in a pull throughthe whole thing in this
dimension that was then seen asnew, to bring the whole thing
together the 500 meter high wall, the Tiritissima was already
free climbing in 1985 by KurtAlbert, a well-known free
(21:51):
climber.
And to pull through the wholething completely without a rope
was also not something new.
Other climbers have alreadyclimbed routes of this size,
this dimension, free solo.
But the combination of thedifficulty of this wall, then
the steepness of the wall, alsothe orientation that it is a
(22:11):
north side, an alpine terrain,was something new.
In the end I just had to putthe individual elements together
.
You can then also transfer thatto the wall itself.
Personally, I knew every singleclimbing train and I knew every
single climbing train Without adoubt.
I can climb superfrisolo, noproblem.
That's actually the wholedimension.
(22:32):
But in that case you can't bebeaten by the dimension of the
wall.
I can't stand down there andsay, my God, I'll never make it,
it's so big, it's beating me.
I have to dismantle the thingmentally and then just go
through it one by one and fromevery single move I know I've
(22:54):
got it.
Speaker 1 (22:54):
Exactly.
I would like to express that.
Speaker 2 (23:01):
I would like to share that with you, and in my sense
it's actually exactly the same.
As Alexander described,everything has already been done
.
In my project it was jumpedfrom the western sense with the
base shield, from the smallsense from the large sense.
All routes have been passedthrough the red dot x times,
only the composition of all thebuilding blocks.
(23:24):
Nobody has done that yet.
And to lay down this crazymarathon, to have this idea, to
have the courage to put thingstogether and that's what it's
about to lift yourself up infront of everyone else.
Speaker 1 (23:39):
Now, if you say to put the courage together, how do
you prepare yourselfdifferently from Alexander for
his projects?
So, if you do Frisolo and ifyou do this, three, ten, four,
five, there are differences.
Speaker 2 (23:53):
There are no differences at all.
This is discipline, absolutediscipline, planning.
Although we sometimes appear tobe completely free and are
total freaks, we have a veryclear structure.
What does the structure looklike?
What do we imagine?
The structure is actually quitebanal with us, we always try to
(24:14):
keep a very high trainingstandard.
In winter, we train becauseit's fun.
And here we are again in thebanality.
Speaker 3 (24:23):
We do it because it makes us really happy and that's
why we can also keep this highstandard.
Speaker 2 (24:31):
If we no longer have fun climbing, then we should
give up, and we would probablydo something completely
different today.
Speaker 1 (24:38):
So I can say again for me, when I'm on the road as
a company, as a manager, I nowdecide not to do it for the
money, for prestige, foranything, but that you have the
passion, the fun to say from theheart's blood I want that, and
if it's four o'clock at nightand I wake up, then I do it
because my heart is beating forit.
Speaker 2 (25:00):
Exactly.
For some you can really say Imean, that's just somewhere in
today's society a terriblepassion to have, passion for
coal.
For some it is really thepassion to have a lot of money.
Maybe that's the driving forcethat the entrepreneur is always
rising again and again and thenhe should do it from me.
Speaker 1 (25:22):
Hopefully he does something positive with the
money that he can give somethingback to the world again that
can also be a motivation.
Speaker 2 (25:30):
Basis for us is the money, the basis for us to live.
Speaker 3 (25:35):
Our passion can live and that we can feed our
families.
Speaker 2 (25:39):
That's a bit of a different reason for us, and for
us, the passion is.
I'm looking forward to climbingagain tomorrow, to training and
then to do something big again.
Speaker 1 (25:52):
Okay, great, then let's get back to this training
camp.
So you have the project FreeSolo expedition.
You go into the training camp.
You do it with your heart andblood.
How does this mentalpreparation come about?
I mean, that's not the walk.
Speaker 3 (26:08):
It is very important with the whole thing that you
have a long trajectory at all.
What?
Speaker 1 (26:13):
is that.
Speaker 3 (26:14):
With that, of course, you have a trajectory, a
treadmill as a climber, ofcourse, you know your body, your
mind.
You have already met a lot ofmovements and always then,
whether it is an expedition or acombination of turns, with base
jumps.
He has made many jumps, he hasalready climbed many turns in
(26:35):
this difficulty.
Speaker 1 (26:35):
So experience Exactly .
How do I tickle?
How am I in this bordersituation?
How does my body behave?
How does my psyche behave?
I have a lot of experience.
Speaker 2 (26:45):
Homework.
We did the homework.
That's how you have to reduceit, quite banally.
Speaker 3 (26:52):
And then the next project that we are approaching
which really brings us back tothe limits is an extension of
the previous experiences.
We try to include all possibleinformation about this project.
I know the route of theindividual climbing trains, I
know what I am getting into, howmuch time I need where I might
(27:16):
reach my physical limits.
Do I have to take a break inbetween?
And then, when I have all thisinformation, a feeling arises
and then you can really talkabout the gut feeling.
Speaker 1 (27:27):
Ah, now it's getting interesting.
Speaker 3 (27:29):
Ultimately these components come, which cannot be
calculated mathematicallyanymore, but where a feeling
arises from the experience, willit be feasible now or not?
And if you want to quantify ofthe rest, for example, for
example for the jumps thatconnect the climbs, just like
for me, the risk of the restwith the strength, maybe somehow
(27:51):
I'm overwhelmed or not, or itcould break a grip then this gut
feeling has to decide in theend, is it acceptable or not?
Because it cannot be calculatedmathematically, because the
overall requirement of theproject is so complex that it
would never be calculated.
And these are situations thatevery entrepreneur has.
You can have control, you canmake a plan in advance, set up a
(28:14):
strategy for the next ten yearsand make a real business plan.
But ultimately the great expert, the one who simply develops a
feeling, and indeed a realfeeling for it, is the whole
thing really feasible or not?
Because one will recognize, ina large company, in the economic
environment, there are so manycomponents that are not directly
(28:37):
calculable that in the end thedecision simply represents the
leader.
Speaker 2 (28:46):
So it is very important, for example, that the
gut feeling is not calledesoteric.
There are many who always say,yes, I have this feeling and
somehow, why do you have that?
Why do you have that so afeeling, a gut feeling, actually
happens, as Alexander saidwonderfully, from the experience
of the thousand routes that wehave already climbed, from these
(29:11):
dangers that we were allowed toexperience and made the right
decision.
And then it just comes from thesubconscious.
Although we cannot evaluate itat that moment.
Where does this feeling comefrom?
But from the subconscious.
It is then shown and said toyou, thomas or Alexander, you
must not go there now, and nowit's over and you have a very
(29:35):
bad feeling and you don't knowwhere the feeling comes from.
But ultimately, you have'veexperienced that somewhere.
Speaker 1 (29:42):
Can we go a little deeper there, because I think
that's very important now,especially in the
entrepreneurial context.
Yes, decisions are made basedon the gut feeling or based on a
calculation, and often theycan't explain it For you.
I understand.
It's very important when I'm onthe wall after all, it's a
question of life and death thatyou have a skill.
(30:05):
So your director, pepe Dankwarz, wrote about everything.
In this situation of extremevigilance, he takes up all the
impressions of meaning.
He works like a machine.
Now, impressions of meaning,impression and machine somehow
contradictory.
But could you explain to us howthis feeling, this awareness,
(30:28):
what it means, where it comesfrom and how it allows you not
only to survive but to make apioneering achievement, so that
we can shake it up a little?
Speaker 2 (30:38):
Machine actually means to be in the tunnel to do
exactly every step intuitively.
I know I can do it.
Let's go back completely.
Speaker 3 (30:48):
We are in lightness.
Speaker 2 (30:51):
We are in perfection.
It's fun.
We don't even know, we don'teven feel that we are on the
right track.
In the moment when fear comesalong and fear is something that
, in this process of expression,one of our most important
emotions, which we still have,thank God we are afraid.
(31:12):
That is in that moment thisfeeling arises.
I have to make a decisionimmediately, because then I know
hoppala, now everything is notas it should be, now something
is happening.
That's this gut feeling again,and now I just have to decide,
sometimes in a matter of secondsdo I go left, right, quickly on
(31:38):
forward, or stop?
I turn around?
Fear is not a healing factorfor us If the fear.
Speaker 1 (31:50):
As the normal society evaluates, fear is about fear
of God.
Speaker 2 (31:51):
I can't go any further.
I go into the knee.
I can't go any further.
That can, of course, be with ustoo.
When the fear becomes healing,then I know I have crossed this
threshold of the first fear.
And then I'm climbing,unfortunately, in an absolutely
deadly area.
I went over the border.
We are border guards, we go tothe border, but we want to live
(32:15):
and are not not allowed to crossthe border.
Good, what is fear?
Speaker 1 (32:27):
People often have similar situations.
They don't want to know what'snext, and then this fear often
arises.
How do we go on now?
And, as you say, fear is aregulative.
For you, it is very, veryimportant to not push it away
but to deal with it.
And you yourself also write inthe book.
You experience the change offeelings in advance.
(32:48):
Can you now explain to me howyou deal with this change, what
strategies you have to deal withit?
Speaker 3 (32:59):
In principle, this change of feeling is very
noticeable.
It is a serious matter.
I think you can really describeit with the life in a company,
Especially when you are at theforefront and have to make
decisions.
Once you are sure about whatyou are doing, then you have the
conviction, the things arepositive, the grips are solid,
(33:23):
which I use during the climb.
I have the difficulty with thegrip.
The other time comes just thenagain, this eventuality, this
rest risk maybe then somehow amental blackout or that
something in the body does notwork, that I get cramps because
I am not satisfied with this dayor because maybe a grip could
(33:44):
break out.
These are again these blackthoughts and I think it's very
important that you live throughthis exchange of feelings.
Only if you know both sides canyou be convinced at some point
that the argument of the otherside prevails.
And it is especially with sucha thing then, until a certain
(34:04):
moment, possible to makedecisions, until the so-called
point of no return.
Not even below, quasi at thebeginning of the route, but
quite a few meters further upyou can translate it into German
with the last possible turningpoint, maybe in a wall height of
80 meters, there is the firstdifficult climbing point, a
(34:25):
really difficult climbing point.
If I climb over it it is almostimpossible for me to climb back
.
But by this point I have theopportunity to find out which
feeling is more important, whichfeeling wins.
If the black thoughts win, thenalmost too much nervousness is
produced.
Maybe then you could evenbreathe out something like a
(34:50):
panic.
Then I just have to look back,then I have to admit that I
don't have the whole thing undercontrol.
And if it's different, if thepositive feeling wins, if I have
trust in myself, in the powerof my fingers, in my mental
strength, then I can move on.
And you can also convey thatwonderfully, I'll tell you
(35:12):
really to the company.
If the entrepreneur prepares amajor action for his company,
then he will also experiencethis interplay of feelings.
Absolutely, he will beconvinced that it works.
It works.
Then a few more informationcomes in, whether it is not
perhaps too bold such adifficult decision.
(35:33):
And then at some point in thelater course, maybe after he has
prepared the whole thing forthree months, it takes one month
.
In the later period, maybeafter you have prepared the
whole thing for three months,you also need one month, the
moment when it definitely has tobe decided.
Then the feeling has to beright.
If the feeling is not rightthen and you step in and do the
whole thing, then you can reallysuffer a shipwreck as a
(35:55):
businessman.
The important thing is that youexperience this variable
feeling that you know't.
Speaker 1 (36:08):
push myself away from the feelings but that I use
them and observe what ishappening now in which direction
(36:29):
it is going.
But I am totally open and onething is very clear when there
is the point of no return.
Speaker 3 (36:34):
when it was overcome, then, as Thomas Thomas already
said, full force, that's whatPepe Dankwurz described Then you
are in an absolute state ofalertness where you can use your
sensors to observe everythingaround you take it up properly
and pull through.
It seems from the outside like amachine, but of course it is
(36:57):
actually not to be understoodthat way, because it is not a
machine that works, but thehuman being.
But you must not let theemotions slip away like that.
You have to go to work sofocused that you look at it from
the outside.
Actually, I think it's amachine.
Speaker 1 (37:13):
Can you explain it to us from your point of view?
Speaker 2 (37:17):
For me, fear results in a sensibilization, and that's
actually the magic word for me,because sensibilization means
that means also I'm absolutelyawake, my whole sensors are off
and I take this information onwhat is it.
Is the weather good, does itfit?
(37:38):
Okay, it's off, it's off, it'soff, it's off, and then it goes
forward and then the point of noreturn is the point of no
return.
I see myself here at adifficult mountain.
I have this really in front ofme and then I can really go like
a machine and then I can easilywalk, then I don't make any
(38:05):
sense that you look at it fromthe outside and actually think
it's a machine.
Speaker 1 (38:12):
Can you explain that from your point of view?
Speaker 2 (38:15):
For me, fear results in a sensibilization, and that
is actually the magic word forme, because sensibilization
means that, means I amabsolutely awake, all my sensors
are off and never thisinformation on what is the
weather?
Good, it fits, ok, it's okay,it's kicking, kicking, kicking,
(38:39):
kicking, and then it goesforward and then it's the point
of no return.
I see myself here right now ona difficult mountain.
I have this really in front ofme and then I can really go like
a machine and then I can easilygo.
Then I don't have any effort.
When everything goes tough,when everything goes difficult,
then the fear comes with it.
(39:01):
Then I know it actually doesn'tmake sense.
I have to say even better forthe economy, very successful
(39:22):
with my lectures I have alreadytried some with the three senses
, so that works.
Go new ways, make visions.
I also believe that Frisoloworks well, but no topic works
better than this story of speed.
We are climbers and we suddenlydo something new which we have
(39:43):
not done before.
We have to adapt ourselves againto what we throw into one pot
from all the experiences we havegathered.
Now throw them into one pot.
How do we as a team manage tobe faster than an incredible
time?
That was set up back then whereeveryone said nobody can do
(40:03):
that anymore, exactly.
But we had the courage to saywhere everyone else said this
time is not available, and wereally said at the beginning
actually, back then we reallysaid we can never do it.
But that always bothered us.
(40:24):
We can't do it, we can't do it,oh God, why not?
Why can't we do it?
No, because we can't do it.
And then at some point comesmotivation, comes this curiosity
what's behind the corner?
We two, we've already done somuch and we've always been
piqued by others.
(40:45):
You know it, you two are theteam.
And then we said, damn it,let's do it today, and then
let's see.
And then Pepe Dankwart jumpedinto the boat, but Pepe Dankwart
didn't jump blindly into theboat.
We have already proven in thefirst place through a game, that
we can climb a route Zodiacwhich is only 600 meters long,
(41:08):
where we have climbed a fabuloustime in speed one hour and 50
minutes.
Where really good climbers alsoneed three days and the speed
record, the old one is at 8hours.
We really pressed it under twohours and with this know-how we
wanted to get the crown Speedknows.
Speaker 1 (41:27):
Good, and the crown.
Let's take a look at it indetail now.
I can already see the eyes arealready very glassy from you two
.
I think that's great.
Now again from someone who isnot at home, climbing again an
entrepreneur, a manager, in acar, for example what is the
Nose?
What is the speed record toassess?
(41:47):
Where is it?
What is it?
Speaker 2 (41:50):
The speed record on the N was set in 2048, in the
year 2000, by Yushi Hirayama,one of the best climbers of our
time, and Hans Florin, anabsolute speed specialist.
Yushi was the climber, hansbrought the know-how and they
(42:13):
have practically reinvented thisform of climbing speed climbing
and the nose.
It was the first route on theEl Capitan, one of the most
important mountains in climbinghere, really great climbing
history was written by WarrenHarding in 1958.
In 30 days of climbing, thewall first climbed through and
(42:37):
that's really the nose, you canalmost say the navel of the
climbing world.
Speaker 1 (42:43):
The most famous climbing route in the world.
Speaker 2 (42:46):
The madness of the insane.
Speaker 1 (42:49):
Exactly Now.
Let's go through again.
So we have a wall that is about1000 meters vertical granite.
It is in America, in California, yosemite Park, one of you will
know it.
The normal trained rope-lifestake three to five days to get
up there and you have set aspeed record.
(43:11):
So to get up there as quicklyas possible from the existing 2
hours and 48 minutes, that means, so to speak, to raise the bar
again.
You just spoke of the Japanese,what they have brought.
Now we come to a very excitingcomponent for you as a team,
which we also find in companies,and I would like to dig out a
little bit of what distinguishesthe beautiful new word high
(43:33):
performance team.
So to deliver absolute topperformance.
With what different know-how doyou get there?
If you look at it twice, whatdo you bring with you?
Speaker 3 (43:44):
It's quite simple that every person is, of course,
an absolute individual.
Thomas and I do not onlydistinguish ourselves physically
, but also mentally andspiritually.
But that is also seen asstrength, because whenever a
team works well, that is, cancombine strengths optimally and
eliminate weaknesses, then it isparticularly successful when
(44:09):
the weaknesses and strengths arealso applied to different
people, that is, if a team wouldtake part that consists of two
parts that are completelyidentical, then we could not
eliminate the weaknesses and notcombine the strengths, because
then everyone would have thesame strengths and the same
weaknesses.
Ideally it is just like that.
If they do not fit togetherperfectly at first glance, but
(44:33):
then they have the ability touse the respective strengths and
to use the strength of theother in the case of weaknesses,
thomas, please.
And I think we can do that verywell because we have been
together since we were children.
We have known each other foreternity, as brothers, of course
, and the longer you know eachother, the better and more
(44:56):
efficient you work witheliminating weaknesses and
combining strengths.
Speaker 1 (45:01):
So I heard know yourself, know yourself, know
the others, know the strengthsso that you can eliminate
weaknesses.
What is the package you areworking with?
Speaker 2 (45:12):
So the package on the nose, so I would say high
performance team.
That's actually about theperfect team, and I always
explain it in my lectures, thatin all team trainings they
(45:34):
always say the same thingEliminate weaknesses, eliminate
strengths, catch one or theother, but that only leads to
the perfect team.
High Performance Team means,first of all, you yourself.
So Alexander himself.
He has prepared himself 100%for this action, and I also 100%
(45:58):
prepared myself.
I worked on my weaknesses.
Where my weaknesses were, Itried to level them out, and so
did Alexander.
And only then, when everyonehas done their homework 100%,
that everyone can do everythingfor themselves, mentally strong,
physically, absolutely 100%,then the incredible and
(46:23):
wonderful thing happens that weare both in the blind
combination.
And then it does not happenthat one plus one that results
in 2, as a perfect combination,but can grow beyond that, so
that the imaginary number 3results, which actually never
(46:44):
exists.
But that is for me the highperformance team.
So the basis is lies withAlexander himself.
Speaker 1 (46:55):
That means you lead or you lead.
Now.
To say concretely, if you wanta high performance team, it
means first and foremost highperformance yourself, only
yourself, only yourself.
And high performance itselfmeans, of course, to have his
strengths.
But you say not only to havethe strengths but to develop the
weaknesses that you have.
Speaker 2 (47:17):
And to develop, because I must not expect that
my team mate tries to compensatefor my weaknesses, and that's
what it's all about.
And that's what it's all aboutin training the, the, the, the,
(47:37):
the, the, the, the, the.
Speaker 1 (47:48):
The, the, the, the, the, the.
Now we talk to NOS.
Do you talk to each other andsay, thomas, you have to give it
a little bit of gas, becauseyou're not that far in that area
yet.
So how is the dynamics with you?
How is it going?
Speaker 3 (48:00):
Yes, that's actually the case.
We actually split up whenpreparing for NOS.
We were on the road withvarious other climbing partners
because Thomas had to trainother routes than me.
And you clearly stick to thatbecause you say, thomas, you
just have to get a little faster.
Thomas said to me you couldprobably only get a little time
(48:22):
out of it, and then you trainthese weak points.
So that's pretty clear.
In order to work optimally as ateam, you have to be strong as
an individual and that meanseliminating the weak weaknesses
as much as possible.
What I said before then laterin the combination in the team,
(48:43):
it is still still still superefficient if you expand the
weaknesses even further bytrying to eliminate the
weaknesses in the team bycombining the strengths.
Speaker 2 (48:55):
And I say in climbing , there are so many moments
where, even if I am in the lead,due to an error from Alexander,
who is now in the second leg,or reversed, I can dangerously
endanger the lead If I make amistake and turn around.
(49:15):
It's the same we are connectedto in life and we try to, step
by step, even though we can doit 100%, to tap into the 100%
(49:37):
mark.
We have to be 100% aware ofthese dangers as much as
possible.
Now I am in a life threateningsituation and then try to
minimize this second so that thetime of mortality increases to
zero, and that makes thisproject so complicated.
Speaker 1 (50:04):
Dean Potter said in a movie I think that fits quite
well it's not about being betterthan others in life, but about
finding your own bestperformance, your own limit.
Is that one of the essences ofwhat it's about?
As a team In competition, youare brothers anyway.
You are competitors from home,but competition is beneficial
(50:25):
because everyone is looking fortheir best performance.
Speaker 3 (50:28):
That's exactly the case in this case.
This positive competition whichalso I can say, which is the
basis of our success, is notbecause I envy my't envy him,
but I just want to bring up newmotivation, train myself to get
(50:59):
there myself, because in the endit is like that the world is
always full of training.
There are always hundreds andthousands of actions worldwide,
no matter in which area for usimportant mountain climbing that
happen, and that's about whatmy brother is doing right now,
but that I do it myself.
And there can always be ahigher performance of my brother
(51:26):
.
Only a motivation.
And if that's the case, thenit's just positive competition
because it drives you to onething.
And that's exactly the same inthe field of science, science in
the field of companies.
It's not about that you envythe other, that he's done
something good again, exactly,thank you very much.
Speaker 1 (51:45):
But that you just give gas yourself, that you give
gas yourself.
So the energy does not goagainst another in the
competition, but the energy goesinto itself.
To stack up.
Up to say, I still find ahigher performance from me.
Speaker 3 (52:00):
That is the best corporate culture.
Speaker 1 (52:02):
That's what we're actually looking for and what
you both experience.
You are alpha animals yourselfevery individual and you give
gas for each other.
You enjoy that.
Speaker 3 (52:14):
I think it's very decisive.
Now I would.
In the record I see nothing buta motivation to make it even
better, to make it even better.
Speaker 2 (52:21):
And now it goes of course here we asked ourselves
some yes, you know, yes, do youwant to crack the record again?
And so on, and we said, no, weare not interested at the moment
because we are now going acompletely different way, a
different way.
We have proven that we cancrack it through our know-how,
through our ability and passion,and we could today, I'm sure.
Speaker 3 (52:44):
Alexander if we drove around, we would have great
ideas.
Speaker 2 (52:49):
I have to be honest in my head at the moment when we
were driving to San Francisco,we said New impulses, new ideas.
Speaker 1 (52:55):
There we were immediately driving the car
there to San Francisco, we saidthere were new impulses new
techniques.
We were immediately driving thecar hey.
Speaker 2 (52:59):
Alexander, now we really want to rebuild it like
this.
We could really get anotherquarter of an hour out In the
process.
We were just in with thisstrategy.
We were pretty much on the edge.
We could have been better infour minutes if we run down a
little bit, but not faster.
But we already have somethingin mind.
(53:21):
But I really think that we canbe faster for a while, maybe
even 20 minutes.
Speaker 1 (53:25):
So there are immediately strategies to say
from the knowledge of how youdid it, there are ideas to push
it forward Now.
Speaker 2 (53:35):
I would like to go into to the failure very short,
but I still want to saysomething.
Speaker 1 (53:38):
Now I'm in there, why , why why?
Speaker 2 (53:40):
do we do that because we and that is really a
wonderful word and the child outof joy and passion, because we
are eager, the great achievementthat we it.
And then we have this curiositywhere we again tussle every
single step in there.
(54:01):
And if we do that, that's right.
Speaker 1 (54:05):
That's what we would bring on.
Speaker 2 (54:07):
That's just when we take on different companies,
this curiosity, this childhood,this childishness, this joy,
then it often happens, then itworks completely differently and
much better and much easier.
Speaker 1 (54:33):
With Fieber.
Fever was the keyword.
So when watching a movie calledOn the Limit, when it knocked
you down, I was very feverishand I always asked myself the
question how do you go fromfailure to success?
Because I could also say now itknocked me down, the project is
(54:54):
no longer for me, we give it upnow.
Now we do something else.
Exactly, you don't do that.
The question is not you did it,you also achieved the record at
some point.
The question for me is how doyou digest that?
Speaker 2 (55:11):
I have digested it very quickly.
I mean my failure, because Icould explain it somewhere.
To be honest, I didn't gothrough the failure, the fall of
Alexander that quickly.
It was pretty close to me,especially because it didn't
(55:32):
affect me myself, but my bestfriend, my life partner, my
brother, with whom I have beenconnected since birth.
But it only kept me in themirror again and again, and
that's where I also shaped thissentence in the moment, when you
(55:54):
are on the road dangerously,you are safe on the road, and it
applies to our two disastersthat we experienced there 100%.
There are two differentdisasters that we experienced
there.
Alexander, it happens in anarea where there was a hiking
(56:17):
terrain for him.
He knew exactly that he wasgoing up a slight rock and at
that moment he was not 100%prepared because he wanted.
Sure he would have knocked itoff, he would have focused it,
it would not have happened.
Speaker 3 (56:43):
Because he was standing above all else and
above all else, it was just thismoment exactly on myself, not
(57:05):
100% attentive.
Then the intervention breaksout, and then it was actually
already so that I could nolonger control the course of
things myself.
I could only react.
Thank God I reacted correctlyand protected my life.
The result was a further injurythat made climbing impossible.
At that moment, the filming ofthe film was, of course, at its
(57:31):
limit.
Our entire project wascompleted.
It was clear that everythinghad to be cancelled.
It was also not clear whetherthe film would continue, but I
was very clear that the projectwould continue.
We would return to it, and thatwas actually the most important
thing for me at that moment,because it was the thing that
(57:54):
was in my heart that I laterexpanded it with the cinema film
.
That it was possible again thatwe continue the project was, of
course, wonderful.
We also returned with the goalof pulling through the whole
thing.
That we would then get aproblem again with the speed
test.
That would have been a problemagain.
(58:18):
You can say that the i-tool wasalmost on the film.
Thomas and I gave it our alland made our first really sharp
attempt, and what happens isthat you climb powerfully to the
limit.
This also causes a little bitof precision underneath and you
(58:41):
can't take every step and everygrip as exactly as you should
normally do.
Thomas just slipped away.
Whenever you go on speed, youare not so optimally secured
mostly not so optimally secured.
Thomas was just a huge fallcyclist was just wearing
blisters not particularlyserious, but heavy bruises and
(59:03):
it was just clear that the speedrecord is now really also at
this session, simply there.
The shooting had to be completedand then the film came
Ultimately in the cinemaswithout success, or at least not
with success on the screen.
And what we could of coursecomplain about at the time we
(59:25):
wanted to see our success on thescreen of victory is seen in a
film.
Then the invasions are missing,because the euphoria just
overcomes everything.
Believe me, guys, the film willbe very strong, especially
because I didn't win in thiscase.
(59:47):
And of course we were alsoasked by the press how it is
when you have to present a filmabout failure in public.
I answered him like this Look atthe film and you will see at
the end of the film.
It is very broad.
On the cable car, thomas andAlexander will travel so long in
the Seasemmel Valley until theyhave fulfilled their dream and
(01:00:09):
actually, we have not given upour dream yet, because we also
felt that we have a chance toget this record.
We wanted to stay with thisgame and that's why we went to
the Semi-Tour Valley six monthslater, and that's the real
highlight of the whole project.
We then prepared intensivelyand, of course, after we learned
(01:00:34):
the mistakes from the mistakes,we got this record in October,
and that was the perfect end forus, the.
I would like to come back tothe failure of the nose, you
(01:01:19):
give full speed.
Speaker 2 (01:01:20):
That's true, but you can still set up this failure
much more complexly, as itreally was.
We were at the beginning.
We took a three-day break.
We were actually optimallyrelaxed.
The we were actually alreadyoptimally rested.
The previous attempt was soperfect on our part.
(01:01:40):
We made a few mistakes, put alot of time into it.
It was a half-sharp attempt.
Speaker 3 (01:01:49):
We were rested upstairs and said 3 hours and 10
minutes, 3 hours and 10 minutes.
Speaker 1 (01:01:54):
There it goes 3 hours and 10 minutes.
That's it.
We had so many reservations.
Speaker 2 (01:01:56):
We were not afraid.
It was so much fun.
We laughed, we discussed.
It was awesome.
Now we have passed three days.
I had a slight cold.
I always took homeopathic drops.
I would have had a slightinfection, probably because of
the breathing.
I had a slight cold, but Ialways took homeopathic drops.
I think I had a rough neckbecause of the breathing and a
(01:02:18):
slight infection due to thisstrain.
I got a stroke and thenAlexander had something on his
neck.
It was a torn circle and hesaid I'll stand at the entrance.
Pepe Dankwart was at the top ofthe elevator with the camera
team, two camera teams in thewall below a camera team waiting
(01:02:40):
for us to slide away.
And on that day we had thisurge to say Alexander doesn't
feel 100%.
We are confident that we cangive 100%.
We know we can make the record,but it is too dangerous.
Alexander was massaged.
That day we broke everything.
(01:03:01):
Pepe Dankwart stayed upstairs,he hiked upstairs and the camera
people hiked upstairs too.
Again, kitchen crew up, foodbrought up.
So the next day we stand againdown on the edge and then it was
Thomas's turn and on that day,strangely enough, I had the
feeling that it was not working.
(01:03:22):
It just doesn't work.
We are back to this strange gutfeeling, but then to say again
today we break down again.
Then the director turns usupside down Because the people
are hanging, hanging in the wall.
Speaker 1 (01:03:36):
You also have responsibility towards the other
person.
Speaker 2 (01:03:39):
And then we just said at some point okay, let's try
it.
And we started climbing and wehad such breakthrough times when
we knew exactly are we ready,are we not ready?
And we kept it in and theseconcerns from my side were blown
away.
Alexander was great on that day.
He was doing well again.
(01:04:00):
But then suddenly there was onestep for me where I thought
during the pre-reaction attemptno, no, no, no, no, no, no, no,
no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no,no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no,
no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no,no, no, no, no, no, no fear at
all.
Hey, he laughs so brilliantly.
It's crazy.
And on that day came thisfeedback where I was right at
(01:04:20):
the point.
This is a voice from theoutside that called me Thomas.
How are you Well today?
I somehow have Now when I flythere.
Just this thought came suddenlyToday when I fly there fuck me,
I'm here for.
Speaker 3 (01:04:37):
God's sake, you heard in the movie that you briefly
said Alexander, watch out, I'mnot feeling too good today.
I'm not feeling too good.
Speaker 2 (01:04:45):
And then I climbed into the Great Roof.
Then I had a energy loss.
From one moment to the next Istarted to tremble, I started to
fear, I started to sneeze.
I was completely dehydrated.
Alexander came after me.
I came to the first cameraman,franz.
I wanted to tell him in thecamera that he was hanging there
(01:05:07):
, but before that, a huge attackby Pepe Dankwart happened
Because he talked to me.
Now I wanted to tell Franz.
Franz, I can't do it anymore.
I can't do it anymore.
Franz just looked away andfilmed me and I immediately knew
Franz, you can't talk to meanymore.
I climbed the next ropeCompletely in fear.
(01:05:29):
I only had two ropes to lead.
We were still on record.
I only had two aiming standingat the stand.
(01:05:52):
I came by Thomas, you're doinggreat, come on, you're on record
, come on.
I said to the aiming I can'tanymore.
I can't anymore.
Come on, thomas, you do it.
You do it, you do it.
And then I said fuck shit.
I pulled the rope again.
Somehow I wanted to stop, butthe body did what the other one
(01:06:14):
told me I make the knot, climbfurther in tremble, climb up.
Alexander came by and at thatmoment my foot slipped away.
I fall.
Everything was over.
Speaker 1 (01:06:26):
So my feeling said my fear told me everything told me
.
All signals said not today.
Everything told me to stop.
Speaker 2 (01:06:36):
From the outside, it was projected.
I was always told to keep going.
Speaker 3 (01:06:41):
It was so close the last 50 meters, thomas would
have had to go.
Speaker 2 (01:06:49):
And then I have to say honestly we failed With a
great teaching.
We failed twice the greatteaching, even if it's easy be
sensitized, because there arethe greatest dangers.
Secondly, no power in the worldshould ever again tell us what
(01:07:13):
we have to do and what we haveto admit, the fear that we are
allowed to say no.
And here is stop, even if it isembarrassing, even if it is
embarrassing, even if a companysays I can't go on anymore, I
have to stop now, Even ifsociety criticizes it.
(01:07:38):
But that's the best thing at themoment.
It's better in politics if yougo into politics Often in
politics to hide the whole thing.
We go a little over it, butthat's wrong.
Speaker 1 (01:07:54):
So what you say now, that failure leads to success,
always stay in this alertness,even if it seems to be smaller
things.
So give it a full sense.
As you said, your sensorsdirect you and see if it is
today.
Is it the situation now?
Are the circumstances there togo to the border area now?
(01:08:16):
And maybe that's exactly thesuccess factor that you then
also learn for the nextpioneering performance, because
it comes from you, from yourinner self, to understand how we
tick, how we can do it, havethe know-how and expand on a new
situation.
And that is perhaps theconclusion.
(01:08:48):
I mentioned it earlier.
It touched me very much whatyou said in the interview.
I want to find my inner summitwhen climbing a mountain.
What does that mean for you andwhat could that mean for a
company, a manager?
What is the inner summit?
Speaker 3 (01:09:04):
I can explain that we go to the mountains because we
try to create very specialmemories and just then, when we
(01:09:25):
set special goals, we go throughthem.
Then we create so intensememories that they remain, say
that in 20, 30 years I willremember it as an absolutely
intense memory, because otherthings have long been forgotten
and what I can do with it issimply a very richly illustrated
, colorful page in the book ofmy memories because, let's be
(01:09:47):
honest, it does not only dependon the number of years lived in
life, but actually much more onthis book of memories.
We are just trying to create aparticularly rich book of
memories through this mountainclimbing, through these projects
that we take up in the mountainclimbing, and that is the value
of life for me.
(01:10:08):
This is my very personal innersummit that I am trying to reach
.
Speaker 2 (01:10:14):
From my side, it is more of a step that I go up, and
I have always said that my lifepath goes over the mountains.
It is my means to find the verytop, to reach God or to reach
the next dimension.
One doesn't have to bereligious so I see the end in
(01:10:47):
earthly life.
It is probably the last breathyou take on this world that you
look out again and then saythank you very much, I
experienced it and I did it, andthat is then the inner summit
and that's what it's all about,that I can then peacefully close
(01:11:09):
my eyes.
So that's how you would imagineit Without fear, without
anything.
And if you get that far, thenyou have made it.
If you don't, then you know youhave done something wrong.
Speaker 1 (01:11:30):
I definitely have a very thick book of memories from
today's conversation with youboth To understand a sensational
art how you tip, how you sit onit, how you bring these
performances.
I have also learned a lot aboutlife without having to go into
(01:11:52):
the wall myself.
I would, as Re Reinhold Messnersays, I would start with the
idea of it in short.
But I got the courage to gofurther, on my inner peak, and
to have such conversations, toshow new ways for entrepreneurs,
and I hope we will meet againand then see where we are.
I thank you, sakrisch, for thetwo great conversations, for the
(01:12:15):
hours, for the preparation andyou have a good time.
Stay healthy, stay alive foryour family, but also for
everyone who can learn from you.
Thank you very much.
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