February 2, 2025 • 21 mins
That Vegan Teacher, real name Kadie Karen Diekmeyer, is one of the most infamous figures in the online vegan community. She skyrocketed to internet notoriety through her aggressive and controversial activism on platforms like TikTok and YouTube. While she claims to be spreading awareness about veganism, her extreme methods, personal attacks, and controversial statements have
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
All right, so today we're going to be taking a
(00:02):
deep dive into a really interesting topic, that vegan teacher.
You guys have sent us a ton of stuff on her.
We got articles, we got social media posts. Some of
you have even sent us personal anecdotes and thoughts about
that vegan teacher. So let's just get right into it.
Speaker 2 (00:16):
Yeah, let's unpack it all.
Speaker 1 (00:17):
I think a lot of people are familiar with her,
but yeah, maybe not everyone knows the full story. So
can we start with like a little background on who
she is? Sure?
Speaker 2 (00:25):
So, her real name is Katie Karen Diikmeyer, and she's
kind of had like a really interesting path to becoming
this like internet vegan activist figure. Yeah, she was actually
a teacher and a nurse. Oh wow, before before she
became that vegan teacher.
Speaker 1 (00:43):
Interesting.
Speaker 2 (00:44):
Yeah, so you know, she's definitely a very polarizing figure.
Some people love her, some people really don't.
Speaker 1 (00:49):
Yeah, you see very strong reactions online. I think that's
what makes this deep dive so interesting. It's just like,
why is she so controversial? Why does she evoke such
strong feelings in people?
Speaker 2 (01:00):
Right? And I think at the core of it, it
really is about her approach to vegan activism. Yeah. You know,
within any movement, especially one is you know, passionate and
kind of you know, fraught, as veganism is, there's going
to be a spectrum of approaches, and she definitely falls
on the more like extreme end of that.
Speaker 1 (01:21):
Yeah, for sure, for sure. And that's a big part
of the controversy. Right, It's not just about the message
of veganism itself, which you know, obviously is a whole
other conversation. Yeah, it's about her tactics and her style totally.
You know, she's she's kind of become known for this
very like in your face, yeah, very aggressive style. You know,
those those catchy phrases like eating animals is wrong.
Speaker 2 (01:45):
McDonald's right, exactly, And that's what makes her stand out
so much, Yeah, is that she's not doing like the
traditional you know, educational approach or the ethical arguments that
a lot of vegans focus on. Yeah, she's really like
taking it to another level, right.
Speaker 1 (01:59):
And that's where I think we start to see why
she generates so much negativity. You know, why do people
dislike her so much so intensely?
Speaker 2 (02:06):
Well, I think one of the biggest things, and this
comes up in a lot of the stuff you said,
is that she attacks people. Yeah, and not just you know,
public figures or celebrities who are maybe used a little
bit of public scrutiny, but like young people on TikTok.
Speaker 1 (02:19):
Yeah, I've seen that, you know.
Speaker 2 (02:20):
And this is where we get into this idea of
punching down, you know, criticizing someone who's perceived as having
less power or influence, right.
Speaker 1 (02:27):
Than Yeah, and so targeting Gordon Ramsey, who's obviously known
for his you know, you can have strong personality and
his comebacks like that might be seen a fair game.
But then going after like a teenager on TikTok who
has a much smaller following, that's viewed differently.
Speaker 2 (02:42):
Right. There's a sense that if you have a large platform,
you have a responsibility to use it ethically and you know,
not target people who might be more vulnerable.
Speaker 1 (02:54):
Yeah. And then there's the accusations of racism and insensitivity,
which are very serious and obviously contribute to the negative perception.
Speaker 2 (03:02):
Of her, right, especially the controversy around her comparing animals
suffering to the Holocaust and slavery.
Speaker 1 (03:08):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (03:08):
You know a lot of people, including a lot of vegans,
found that to be really offensive.
Speaker 1 (03:12):
Yeah, I can see why I felt.
Speaker 2 (03:13):
Like it was trivializing those historical tragedies.
Speaker 1 (03:16):
Yeah, it seems like a lot of the dislike really
stems from her tactics. You know, they often perceive as extreme, alienating.
You know, she doesn't really engage in like reason debate
or appeals to empathy. Right, it's a lot of guilt tripping, shaming,
what some people describe as a preachy tone.
Speaker 2 (03:34):
Yeah, and that's not very effective in terms of persuasion, right,
you know, like there's it's actually research on this. People
are much more receptive to messages that are delivered with
empathy and understanding, even if it challenges their beliefs. Yeah,
So when you come at someone with that kind of
like you know, preachy or aggressive, the aggressive, you know,
(03:55):
finger wagging kind of tone, it just it triggers defensiveness
and makes people less likely to actually listen to what
you're saying.
Speaker 1 (04:02):
Yeah, it makes sense. And then there's the vegan dog controversy,
which I think really sparked a lot of outrage every
time and sort of added to this perception that maybe
her approach is a little out of touch with reality.
Speaker 2 (04:15):
Right, because it brings up these really complicated questions about
you know, vegan ethics when it comes to pets. Yeah,
you know, some vegans believe that all animals should be vegan. Yeah,
but others would argue that, you know, domesticated animals have
different dietary needs and you know, might not thrive on
a strictly plant based diet. So it's it's not a
(04:36):
simple issue.
Speaker 1 (04:37):
No, it's not as simple as saying all animal products
are bad. There are nuances there.
Speaker 2 (04:41):
Exactly, and especially when it comes to dogs, you know,
the science is pretty clear they're omnivores, their digestive systems
are designed to process both plant and animal based protein.
Speaker 1 (04:52):
So it's not just about the effics of it, it's
about potential health risks.
Speaker 2 (04:56):
Right exactly. And I think for a lot of people
felt like she was prioritizing ideology over the well being.
Speaker 1 (05:02):
Of her dog, Yeah, which I think is what really
rubbed people the wrong.
Speaker 2 (05:05):
Way, absolutely, and it kind of fueled that perception that,
you know, maybe she's not taking all the factors into consideration.
Speaker 1 (05:12):
And it's a good reminder that even within a movement
like veganism, there's a diversity of thought. There are different
perspectives and approaches, and you can't just paint everyone with
the same brush totally. You know, you can't make assumptions
about an entire group of people based on the actions
of a few individuals, exactly.
Speaker 2 (05:29):
And I think it also highlights the importance of critical
thinking and nuanced understanding. Yeah, when we're talking about these
complex issues, you know, animal welfare, ethics. Yeah, personal choices
like there aren't always easy answers, and it's often in
those gray areas where we can have the most you know,
valuable conversations and learn the most.
Speaker 1 (05:50):
So speaking of consequences, her online tactics ultimately led to
her being permanently banned from TikTok in twenty twenty one.
Oh yeah, do we know exactly why that happened.
Speaker 2 (06:00):
So TikTok never officially confirmed the specific reasons, but it's
widely believed that it was due to repeated violations of
their community guidelines, you know, things like harassment, extreme content
targeting individuals.
Speaker 1 (06:16):
So it wasn't just about her being vegan, It was
about how she was delivering that message.
Speaker 2 (06:19):
Yeah, it was about her behavior on the platform.
Speaker 1 (06:22):
Which ultimately led to her removal exactly. And I think
that speaks to this broader question of how we engage
in online discourse, especially around these sensitive and potentially divisive topics.
Speaker 2 (06:32):
Right, Because the internet's a powerful tool. You know, you
can use it for activism, you can use it for
raising awareness, but it also amplifies the potential for negativity,
for harassment, for the spread of misinformation, for sure, So
we have to be really careful about how we use
these platforms.
Speaker 1 (06:50):
It almost seems like her story is kind of a
cautionary tale about the potential downsides of online activism when
it crosses the line into personal attacks of tactics. It
raises this question of can someone be genuinely passionate about
a cause but also be deeply problematic in their approach, right,
and if so, does that ultimately undermine the cause that
(07:12):
they're trying to promote.
Speaker 2 (07:14):
Those are excellent questions, and I think they really get
to the heart of this whole you know, complex relationship
between intention and impact and you know, the ethics of persuasion. Right,
So maybe we should delve into some specific examples. Yeah,
let's do it of her online feuds, yeah, and see
how they've.
Speaker 1 (07:32):
Been perceived, yeah, and what we can learn from them exactly,
all right, So let's dive into those examples next. Sounds good, okay,
So let's get into some specific examples here. You know,
her interactions with these high profile figures like Gordon Ramsay
for instance, they got a lot of attention.
Speaker 2 (07:47):
Yeah, that was a big one.
Speaker 1 (07:48):
You know what what was it about that back and
forth that really caught people's attention?
Speaker 2 (07:54):
Well, I think it was just like this classic example
of how online these clashes can escalate so quick. Yeah.
You know, she was criticizing him obviously for you know,
his meat consumption, very public about it, and his response
was very much like classic Gordon Ramsay.
Speaker 1 (08:11):
Yeah, he kind of turned it into this whole performance
like theatrically eating a burger in a TikTok video, right,
and you know, calling her a vegan donut like very
much playing into that persona. Yeah, that tell it like
it is exactly exactly. And it's interesting because on one hand,
you could say, well, he's just you know, a celebrity chef,
(08:32):
he's playing to his audience, he's using humor to deflect criticism, right,
but it also kind of highlights the power dynamics at play,
oh totally. You know, because he has this massive platform,
he has this established persona he can easily brush off
her comments and even turn it into content that actually
like reinforces his.
Speaker 2 (08:52):
Brand exactly, and she doesn't really have the same power
to do that, right.
Speaker 1 (08:56):
And so it makes me wonder was that exchange actually
helpful at all in promoting a dialogue about veganism, or
does it just become another example of online noise.
Speaker 2 (09:05):
It's hard to say, you know. I mean, on the
one hand, it definitely brought more attention to the topic,
even if it was in a kind of sensationalized way.
You know, maybe some people were exposed to the idea
of veganism for the first time. Maybe it made some
people think a little more critically about their own dietary choices.
But on the other hand, it also reinforced a lot
(09:27):
of those negative stereotypes about vegans, you know, that they're preachy,
that they're judgmental, So it could have actually pushed away
people who are on the fence about the issue.
Speaker 1 (09:36):
Yeah. I think that's a really important point, and it's
something that we got some feedback on from our last
deep dive. Oh really, you know, some people felt like
we didn't really explore the psychological impact of those stereotypes.
Speaker 2 (09:47):
Enough.
Speaker 1 (09:47):
That's interesting, and so I think it's worth bringing up
here because there's this concept of stereotype threat.
Speaker 2 (09:54):
Oh yeah, I've heard of that.
Speaker 1 (09:55):
Which basically means that when people are aware of negative
stereotype about their group, it can actually affect their performance
and their behavior and lead them to unintentionally confirm those stereotypes. So,
in the context of veganism, if someone is constantly bombarded
with this image of like the angry vegan, yeah, the
judgmental vegan, it might actually make them less likely to
(10:19):
identify as vegan that makes sense, or explore the lifestyle,
even if they agree with the ethical or environmental concerns.
Speaker 2 (10:26):
So it's like a self fulfilling prophecy almost right.
Speaker 1 (10:28):
And so it's possible that that vegal teachers approach, even
if it's unintentional, is actually reinforcing those very stereotypes that
make it harder to spread the message of veganism exactly.
Speaker 2 (10:40):
It's like this weird catch twenty two where you know,
the intention might be to raise awareness and promote veganism,
but the method being used is actually having the opposite effect.
It's making people more resistant to the message, yeah, because
it's confirming their biases.
Speaker 1 (10:55):
Yeah, it's almost like shooting yourself in the foot, right exactly.
So Ramsey was on high profile target. She's also been
critical of mister Beast.
Speaker 2 (11:03):
Oh yeah, the YouTuber yeah.
Speaker 1 (11:05):
Who does those huge philanthropic videos giving away tons of
money and food and stuff.
Speaker 2 (11:10):
Right, And she was criticizing the type of food that
he gives away, you know, saying it should be.
Speaker 1 (11:15):
Vegan, which some people might say is a valid point, like,
if you're going to promote generosity, why not promote a
more ethical and sustainable form of eating, right, But others
might argue that by dictating the type of food you're
giving away, you're taking away choice and potentially creating more
barriers to helping people. That's true too, So it's a
(11:37):
complex issue. I don't think there's an easy answer there, No,
not at all. It's about how we balance our own
personal beliefs with the knees and preferences of others, and.
Speaker 2 (11:46):
Also recognizing that good intentions don't always equal positive outcomes, right.
You know, her critique of mister Beasts might have come
from a good place, Yeah, but it could have alienated
some viewers who see his videos as a positive force
in the world.
Speaker 1 (12:01):
Yeah, and then there's her criticism of Darman Oh, another
YouTuber who does those kind of inspirational video.
Speaker 2 (12:08):
Life lessing kind of things.
Speaker 1 (12:09):
Yeah, and that one seemed to come out of left
field for a lot of people.
Speaker 2 (12:12):
It did because Darman's content is generally pretty apolitical, you know,
it's about personal growth and life lessons, right, So when
she called him out for not promoting veganism, yeah, it
just seemed kind of off topic, like.
Speaker 1 (12:24):
Why is she going after him?
Speaker 2 (12:26):
Right, exactly, He's not really in that realm.
Speaker 1 (12:28):
And it raised this question of, you know, can someone
be considered good or ethical if they don't actively advocate
for every cause that we believe in?
Speaker 2 (12:39):
Yeah, Like do we need to hold everyone to the
same standard, right or is.
Speaker 1 (12:42):
There room for you know, individual focus and priorities.
Speaker 2 (12:46):
Yeah. I think that's a really important question.
Speaker 1 (12:48):
It is, and it gets to the heart of what
it means to live an ethical life in a complex world.
You know, we can't expect everyone to be equally passionate
about every single issue. Yeah, and we have to recognize
that people contribute to society.
Speaker 2 (13:01):
In different ways, right, So maybe it's less about judging
individuals for what they don't do and more about appreciating
the diverse ways in which people choose to make a
positive impact exactly. And this brings us back to the
core question of our deep dive. Has that vegan teacher's
approach ultimately helped or hurt the vegan movement?
Speaker 1 (13:26):
Yeah? A million dollar question, right.
Speaker 2 (13:28):
And there's no easy answer.
Speaker 1 (13:29):
No, it seems like a real mixed bag. On one hand,
you could say she's brought attention to veganism. Yeah, she
sparked conversations, even if they haven't always been positive. You know.
There's that saying any publicity is good publicity, So maybe
just getting people talking about it is a win in itself.
Speaker 2 (13:47):
Yeah, I mean her videos have been viewed millions of times. Yeah,
so she's definitely put veganism on the radar of people
who maybe wouldn't have considered it otherwise. But the question
is does that attention translate into actual meaningful change.
Speaker 1 (14:00):
And that's where the other side of the argument comes in, right,
because her tactics have also generated a lot of backlash, Yeah,
for sure, you know, and they've reinforced these negative stereotypes
about vegans. So you could argue that she's actually pushing
away more people than she's attracting it's possible. Yeah, it's
like she's created this vegan paradox where her passion and
her dedication are actually hindering the pause that she's trying
(14:24):
to promote.
Speaker 2 (14:25):
Yeah. It really highlights that delicate balance that all activists
have to navigate, you know, how to be passionate and
persuasive without being alienating or polarizing.
Speaker 1 (14:35):
Right, It's about finding that sweet spot where you can
connect with people on a human level, even when you're
discussing something that's sensitive or controversial.
Speaker 2 (14:45):
Yeah, exactly. And I think it's important to remember that
there's not just one way to be a vegan activist, right,
there's a whole spectrum of approaches within the movement.
Speaker 1 (14:53):
Yeah. And you actually sent over some examples of other
vegan influencers who are using very different tax you know,
they focus on reasoned arguments, scientific data, ethical discussions, personal stories,
sharing recipes. Yeah, and it just shows that you can
advocate for veganism without resorting to shouting matches or online feuds.
Speaker 2 (15:15):
Right. It's not about veganism itself being the problem. It's
about the methods that are being used.
Speaker 1 (15:21):
The methods of communication, exactly. So we've talked a lot
about the downsides, but have there been any like positive
aspects of her style or things that have actually been effective.
Speaker 2 (15:31):
Yeah, that's a good point. I mean, you know, while
her tactics have definitely been criticized a lot, you can't
deny that she has brought a lot of attention to
the issue of animal welfare. Yeah. And you know, for
some people, her you know, very strong stance and bold
statements might have actually been the thing that made them
start questioning their own choices.
Speaker 1 (15:52):
Right, So, even if her methods are seen as problematic,
she might have inadvertently been like a gateway for people
into the vegan world exactly.
Speaker 2 (15:59):
And you know, there's no one size fits all approach
to activism, right. What might be off putting to one
person might really resonate with someone else.
Speaker 1 (16:08):
It's true, and it makes me think about how, like
throughout history, social movements have often had these figures who
are seen as more like radical or controversial. Yeah, but
they still play a role in like pushing the boundaries
and getting attention for the cause.
Speaker 2 (16:22):
Right. It's not always the most polished or palatable voices
that end up creating change.
Speaker 1 (16:28):
Yeah, that's a good point, and it reminds us that
social change is rarely like a linear or comfortable process.
Speaker 2 (16:35):
Yeah, for sure.
Speaker 1 (16:35):
It often requires, you know, some discomfort, some disruption, challenging
the status quo. Absolutely, And so while that vegan teacher's
approach might not be the most effective in the long run, yeah,
her willingness to be so outspoken and uncompromising, even if
it means losing popularity, it has definitely made people think
differently about, you know, the way animals are treated, for sure.
Speaker 2 (16:58):
And I think it's interesting to think about how the
digital age has really changed the game when it comes
to activism. Oh yeah, you know, because now with social media,
anyone can potentially become like a global influencer. And that's
both exciting and a little bit scary.
Speaker 1 (17:12):
Yeah, it's a double edged.
Speaker 2 (17:13):
Sword, it is, because on the one hand, you have
this incredible reach, you know, you can connect with people
all over the world. But on the other hand, it
creates this environment where sensationalism and outrage often go viral,
and nuance and thoughtful dialogue can get lost in the shuffle.
Speaker 1 (17:30):
It's almost like the loudest voice wins, even if it's
not necessarily the most informed or the most constructive voice, right, And.
Speaker 2 (17:36):
I think that Vegan teacher story is a perfect example
of that. You know, she's been able to amass this
huge following and spark global conversations, but her approach has
also generated a ton of backlash and really contributed to
the polarization of this whole debate around veganism.
Speaker 1 (17:54):
Right. It's complicated, there's no easy answers, it is, and.
Speaker 2 (17:57):
It reminds us that even with the best intentions, the
way we communicate and the platforms we use can really
shape how our message is received, for sure.
Speaker 1 (18:07):
So as we kind of wrap up this deep dive
into that Vegan teacher, Yeah, what are some of the
key takeaways here? What can we learn from her story,
both the good and the bad, about effective communication, about
online activism, about the challenges of promoting social change.
Speaker 2 (18:21):
Well, I think one of the biggest takeaways for me
is just the power of language and tone.
Speaker 1 (18:25):
Mm hm.
Speaker 2 (18:26):
You know, how we say something can be just as
important as what we're actually saying, right, And you know,
her aggressive and confrontational style has really turned a lot
of people off.
Speaker 1 (18:36):
Yeah, even people who might agree with her on the
issue itself exactly.
Speaker 2 (18:40):
And so I think it's a reminder that empathy, respect,
a willingness to listen m hm. Those are crucial elements
of effective communication.
Speaker 1 (18:50):
Especially when you're talking about something sensitive or controversial. As
it's like you can catch more flies with honey than
with vinegar, right, exactly. People are just more receptive to
messages that are delivered with kindness.
Speaker 2 (19:02):
And understanding, even if it challenges their beliefs.
Speaker 1 (19:05):
Yeah, exactly. And another key takeaway is I think the
importance of really understanding your audience and tailoring your message accordingly.
Speaker 2 (19:14):
Oh yeah, for sure.
Speaker 1 (19:15):
You know, because what works for one group might not
work for another.
Speaker 2 (19:18):
Right, Different people are going to respond to different.
Speaker 1 (19:20):
Things, exactly, So it's about considering the values, the concerns,
the perspectives of the people you're trying to reach, and
framing your message in a way that resonates with them.
Speaker 2 (19:31):
And you know, you brought up earlier how some of
the other vegan influencers we talked about have been really
successful using different approaches.
Speaker 1 (19:38):
Some focus on the health benefits, some on the environment,
some on the ethical arguments, And it just shows that
there are many paths to promoting veganism and it's not
a one size fits all thing and it's.
Speaker 2 (19:49):
About being willing to meet people where they are. Yeah,
you know, not everyone's going to be at the same
stage of awareness or acceptance.
Speaker 1 (19:56):
Right, And I think the last thing I would add
is just the importance of critical thinking and wants.
Speaker 2 (20:00):
Well.
Speaker 1 (20:01):
Yeah, in our online interactions these days, especially these days,
it's so easy to get caught up in the drama
and the outrage, the clickbait. Yeah, but we have to
take a step back, evaluate the information we're consuming and
form our own opinions based on evidence and thoughtful consideration.
Speaker 2 (20:20):
We need to be critical consumers of information, especially in
the age of social media where misinformation can spread so quickly.
Speaker 1 (20:29):
So as we wrap up this deep dive into that
vegan teacher, Yeah, what's the final thought you want to
leave our listeners with?
Speaker 2 (20:37):
I think the most important thing to remember is that
every interaction we have, whether it's online or offline, is
an opportunity for connection and growth.
Speaker 1 (20:45):
That's a good point.
Speaker 2 (20:46):
You know, Even when we encounter people who have views
that we find challenging or even offensive, it's crucial to
approach those interactions with a sense of curiosity and a
willingness to understand.
Speaker 1 (20:59):
It's not about seeing it as a battle to be won.
It's about seeing it as a learning.
Speaker 2 (21:03):
Experience exactly, and remembering that behind every screen there's a
human being with their own story and experiences in.
Speaker 1 (21:10):
Perspective, well said, so to our listeners, we encourage you
to keep exploring, keep questioning, and keep the conversation going.
The world of veganism, like any social movement, is full
of complexities and contradictions and passionate individuals who are trying
to make a difference.
Speaker 2 (21:27):
And as we navigate this digital landscape, let's try to
approach each other with empathy and respect and a genuine
desire to understand.
Speaker 1 (21:36):
That's all for this deep dive. Thanks for joining us,
and we'll catch you on the next one.
All right, so today we're going to be taking a
(00:02):
deep dive into a really interesting topic, that vegan teacher.
You guys have sent us a ton of stuff on her.
We got articles, we got social media posts. Some of
you have even sent us personal anecdotes and thoughts about
that vegan teacher. So let's just get right into it.
Speaker 2 (00:16):
Yeah, let's unpack it all.
Speaker 1 (00:17):
I think a lot of people are familiar with her,
but yeah, maybe not everyone knows the full story. So
can we start with like a little background on who
she is? Sure?
Speaker 2 (00:25):
So, her real name is Katie Karen Diikmeyer, and she's
kind of had like a really interesting path to becoming
this like internet vegan activist figure. Yeah, she was actually
a teacher and a nurse. Oh wow, before before she
became that vegan teacher.
Speaker 1 (00:43):
Interesting.
Speaker 2 (00:44):
Yeah, so you know, she's definitely a very polarizing figure.
Some people love her, some people really don't.
Speaker 1 (00:49):
Yeah, you see very strong reactions online. I think that's
what makes this deep dive so interesting. It's just like,
why is she so controversial? Why does she evoke such
strong feelings in people?
Speaker 2 (01:00):
Right? And I think at the core of it, it
really is about her approach to vegan activism. Yeah. You know,
within any movement, especially one is you know, passionate and
kind of you know, fraught, as veganism is, there's going
to be a spectrum of approaches, and she definitely falls
on the more like extreme end of that.
Speaker 1 (01:21):
Yeah, for sure, for sure. And that's a big part
of the controversy. Right, It's not just about the message
of veganism itself, which you know, obviously is a whole
other conversation. Yeah, it's about her tactics and her style totally.
You know, she's she's kind of become known for this
very like in your face, yeah, very aggressive style. You know,
those those catchy phrases like eating animals is wrong.
Speaker 2 (01:45):
McDonald's right, exactly, And that's what makes her stand out
so much, Yeah, is that she's not doing like the
traditional you know, educational approach or the ethical arguments that
a lot of vegans focus on. Yeah, she's really like
taking it to another level, right.
Speaker 1 (01:59):
And that's where I think we start to see why
she generates so much negativity. You know, why do people
dislike her so much so intensely?
Speaker 2 (02:06):
Well, I think one of the biggest things, and this
comes up in a lot of the stuff you said,
is that she attacks people. Yeah, and not just you know,
public figures or celebrities who are maybe used a little
bit of public scrutiny, but like young people on TikTok.
Speaker 1 (02:19):
Yeah, I've seen that, you know.
Speaker 2 (02:20):
And this is where we get into this idea of
punching down, you know, criticizing someone who's perceived as having
less power or influence, right.
Speaker 1 (02:27):
Than Yeah, and so targeting Gordon Ramsey, who's obviously known
for his you know, you can have strong personality and
his comebacks like that might be seen a fair game.
But then going after like a teenager on TikTok who
has a much smaller following, that's viewed differently.
Speaker 2 (02:42):
Right. There's a sense that if you have a large platform,
you have a responsibility to use it ethically and you know,
not target people who might be more vulnerable.
Speaker 1 (02:54):
Yeah. And then there's the accusations of racism and insensitivity,
which are very serious and obviously contribute to the negative perception.
Speaker 2 (03:02):
Of her, right, especially the controversy around her comparing animals
suffering to the Holocaust and slavery.
Speaker 1 (03:08):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (03:08):
You know a lot of people, including a lot of vegans,
found that to be really offensive.
Speaker 1 (03:12):
Yeah, I can see why I felt.
Speaker 2 (03:13):
Like it was trivializing those historical tragedies.
Speaker 1 (03:16):
Yeah, it seems like a lot of the dislike really
stems from her tactics. You know, they often perceive as extreme, alienating.
You know, she doesn't really engage in like reason debate
or appeals to empathy. Right, it's a lot of guilt tripping, shaming,
what some people describe as a preachy tone.
Speaker 2 (03:34):
Yeah, and that's not very effective in terms of persuasion, right,
you know, like there's it's actually research on this. People
are much more receptive to messages that are delivered with
empathy and understanding, even if it challenges their beliefs. Yeah,
So when you come at someone with that kind of
like you know, preachy or aggressive, the aggressive, you know,
(03:55):
finger wagging kind of tone, it just it triggers defensiveness
and makes people less likely to actually listen to what
you're saying.
Speaker 1 (04:02):
Yeah, it makes sense. And then there's the vegan dog controversy,
which I think really sparked a lot of outrage every
time and sort of added to this perception that maybe
her approach is a little out of touch with reality.
Speaker 2 (04:15):
Right, because it brings up these really complicated questions about
you know, vegan ethics when it comes to pets. Yeah,
you know, some vegans believe that all animals should be vegan. Yeah,
but others would argue that, you know, domesticated animals have
different dietary needs and you know, might not thrive on
a strictly plant based diet. So it's it's not a
(04:36):
simple issue.
Speaker 1 (04:37):
No, it's not as simple as saying all animal products
are bad. There are nuances there.
Speaker 2 (04:41):
Exactly, and especially when it comes to dogs, you know,
the science is pretty clear they're omnivores, their digestive systems
are designed to process both plant and animal based protein.
Speaker 1 (04:52):
So it's not just about the effics of it, it's
about potential health risks.
Speaker 2 (04:56):
Right exactly. And I think for a lot of people
felt like she was prioritizing ideology over the well being.
Speaker 1 (05:02):
Of her dog, Yeah, which I think is what really
rubbed people the wrong.
Speaker 2 (05:05):
Way, absolutely, and it kind of fueled that perception that,
you know, maybe she's not taking all the factors into consideration.
Speaker 1 (05:12):
And it's a good reminder that even within a movement
like veganism, there's a diversity of thought. There are different
perspectives and approaches, and you can't just paint everyone with
the same brush totally. You know, you can't make assumptions
about an entire group of people based on the actions
of a few individuals, exactly.
Speaker 2 (05:29):
And I think it also highlights the importance of critical
thinking and nuanced understanding. Yeah, when we're talking about these
complex issues, you know, animal welfare, ethics. Yeah, personal choices
like there aren't always easy answers, and it's often in
those gray areas where we can have the most you know,
valuable conversations and learn the most.
Speaker 1 (05:50):
So speaking of consequences, her online tactics ultimately led to
her being permanently banned from TikTok in twenty twenty one.
Oh yeah, do we know exactly why that happened.
Speaker 2 (06:00):
So TikTok never officially confirmed the specific reasons, but it's
widely believed that it was due to repeated violations of
their community guidelines, you know, things like harassment, extreme content
targeting individuals.
Speaker 1 (06:16):
So it wasn't just about her being vegan, It was
about how she was delivering that message.
Speaker 2 (06:19):
Yeah, it was about her behavior on the platform.
Speaker 1 (06:22):
Which ultimately led to her removal exactly. And I think
that speaks to this broader question of how we engage
in online discourse, especially around these sensitive and potentially divisive topics.
Speaker 2 (06:32):
Right, Because the internet's a powerful tool. You know, you
can use it for activism, you can use it for
raising awareness, but it also amplifies the potential for negativity,
for harassment, for the spread of misinformation, for sure, So
we have to be really careful about how we use
these platforms.
Speaker 1 (06:50):
It almost seems like her story is kind of a
cautionary tale about the potential downsides of online activism when
it crosses the line into personal attacks of tactics. It
raises this question of can someone be genuinely passionate about
a cause but also be deeply problematic in their approach, right,
and if so, does that ultimately undermine the cause that
(07:12):
they're trying to promote.
Speaker 2 (07:14):
Those are excellent questions, and I think they really get
to the heart of this whole you know, complex relationship
between intention and impact and you know, the ethics of persuasion. Right,
So maybe we should delve into some specific examples. Yeah,
let's do it of her online feuds, yeah, and see
how they've.
Speaker 1 (07:32):
Been perceived, yeah, and what we can learn from them exactly,
all right, So let's dive into those examples next. Sounds good, okay,
So let's get into some specific examples here. You know,
her interactions with these high profile figures like Gordon Ramsay
for instance, they got a lot of attention.
Speaker 2 (07:47):
Yeah, that was a big one.
Speaker 1 (07:48):
You know what what was it about that back and
forth that really caught people's attention?
Speaker 2 (07:54):
Well, I think it was just like this classic example
of how online these clashes can escalate so quick. Yeah.
You know, she was criticizing him obviously for you know,
his meat consumption, very public about it, and his response
was very much like classic Gordon Ramsay.
Speaker 1 (08:11):
Yeah, he kind of turned it into this whole performance
like theatrically eating a burger in a TikTok video, right,
and you know, calling her a vegan donut like very
much playing into that persona. Yeah, that tell it like
it is exactly exactly. And it's interesting because on one hand,
you could say, well, he's just you know, a celebrity chef,
(08:32):
he's playing to his audience, he's using humor to deflect criticism, right,
but it also kind of highlights the power dynamics at play,
oh totally. You know, because he has this massive platform,
he has this established persona he can easily brush off
her comments and even turn it into content that actually
like reinforces his.
Speaker 2 (08:52):
Brand exactly, and she doesn't really have the same power
to do that, right.
Speaker 1 (08:56):
And so it makes me wonder was that exchange actually
helpful at all in promoting a dialogue about veganism, or
does it just become another example of online noise.
Speaker 2 (09:05):
It's hard to say, you know. I mean, on the
one hand, it definitely brought more attention to the topic,
even if it was in a kind of sensationalized way.
You know, maybe some people were exposed to the idea
of veganism for the first time. Maybe it made some
people think a little more critically about their own dietary choices.
But on the other hand, it also reinforced a lot
(09:27):
of those negative stereotypes about vegans, you know, that they're preachy,
that they're judgmental, So it could have actually pushed away
people who are on the fence about the issue.
Speaker 1 (09:36):
Yeah. I think that's a really important point, and it's
something that we got some feedback on from our last
deep dive. Oh really, you know, some people felt like
we didn't really explore the psychological impact of those stereotypes.
Speaker 2 (09:47):
Enough.
Speaker 1 (09:47):
That's interesting, and so I think it's worth bringing up
here because there's this concept of stereotype threat.
Speaker 2 (09:54):
Oh yeah, I've heard of that.
Speaker 1 (09:55):
Which basically means that when people are aware of negative
stereotype about their group, it can actually affect their performance
and their behavior and lead them to unintentionally confirm those stereotypes. So,
in the context of veganism, if someone is constantly bombarded
with this image of like the angry vegan, yeah, the
judgmental vegan, it might actually make them less likely to
(10:19):
identify as vegan that makes sense, or explore the lifestyle,
even if they agree with the ethical or environmental concerns.
Speaker 2 (10:26):
So it's like a self fulfilling prophecy almost right.
Speaker 1 (10:28):
And so it's possible that that vegal teachers approach, even
if it's unintentional, is actually reinforcing those very stereotypes that
make it harder to spread the message of veganism exactly.
Speaker 2 (10:40):
It's like this weird catch twenty two where you know,
the intention might be to raise awareness and promote veganism,
but the method being used is actually having the opposite effect.
It's making people more resistant to the message, yeah, because
it's confirming their biases.
Speaker 1 (10:55):
Yeah, it's almost like shooting yourself in the foot, right exactly.
So Ramsey was on high profile target. She's also been
critical of mister Beast.
Speaker 2 (11:03):
Oh yeah, the YouTuber yeah.
Speaker 1 (11:05):
Who does those huge philanthropic videos giving away tons of
money and food and stuff.
Speaker 2 (11:10):
Right, And she was criticizing the type of food that
he gives away, you know, saying it should be.
Speaker 1 (11:15):
Vegan, which some people might say is a valid point, like,
if you're going to promote generosity, why not promote a
more ethical and sustainable form of eating, right, But others
might argue that by dictating the type of food you're
giving away, you're taking away choice and potentially creating more
barriers to helping people. That's true too, So it's a
(11:37):
complex issue. I don't think there's an easy answer there, No,
not at all. It's about how we balance our own
personal beliefs with the knees and preferences of others, and.
Speaker 2 (11:46):
Also recognizing that good intentions don't always equal positive outcomes, right.
You know, her critique of mister Beasts might have come
from a good place, Yeah, but it could have alienated
some viewers who see his videos as a positive force
in the world.
Speaker 1 (12:01):
Yeah, and then there's her criticism of Darman Oh, another
YouTuber who does those kind of inspirational video.
Speaker 2 (12:08):
Life lessing kind of things.
Speaker 1 (12:09):
Yeah, and that one seemed to come out of left
field for a lot of people.
Speaker 2 (12:12):
It did because Darman's content is generally pretty apolitical, you know,
it's about personal growth and life lessons, right, So when
she called him out for not promoting veganism, yeah, it
just seemed kind of off topic, like.
Speaker 1 (12:24):
Why is she going after him?
Speaker 2 (12:26):
Right, exactly, He's not really in that realm.
Speaker 1 (12:28):
And it raised this question of, you know, can someone
be considered good or ethical if they don't actively advocate
for every cause that we believe in?
Speaker 2 (12:39):
Yeah, Like do we need to hold everyone to the
same standard, right or is.
Speaker 1 (12:42):
There room for you know, individual focus and priorities.
Speaker 2 (12:46):
Yeah. I think that's a really important question.
Speaker 1 (12:48):
It is, and it gets to the heart of what
it means to live an ethical life in a complex world.
You know, we can't expect everyone to be equally passionate
about every single issue. Yeah, and we have to recognize
that people contribute to society.
Speaker 2 (13:01):
In different ways, right, So maybe it's less about judging
individuals for what they don't do and more about appreciating
the diverse ways in which people choose to make a
positive impact exactly. And this brings us back to the
core question of our deep dive. Has that vegan teacher's
approach ultimately helped or hurt the vegan movement?
Speaker 1 (13:26):
Yeah? A million dollar question, right.
Speaker 2 (13:28):
And there's no easy answer.
Speaker 1 (13:29):
No, it seems like a real mixed bag. On one hand,
you could say she's brought attention to veganism. Yeah, she
sparked conversations, even if they haven't always been positive. You know.
There's that saying any publicity is good publicity, So maybe
just getting people talking about it is a win in itself.
Speaker 2 (13:47):
Yeah, I mean her videos have been viewed millions of times. Yeah,
so she's definitely put veganism on the radar of people
who maybe wouldn't have considered it otherwise. But the question
is does that attention translate into actual meaningful change.
Speaker 1 (14:00):
And that's where the other side of the argument comes in, right,
because her tactics have also generated a lot of backlash, Yeah,
for sure, you know, and they've reinforced these negative stereotypes
about vegans. So you could argue that she's actually pushing
away more people than she's attracting it's possible. Yeah, it's
like she's created this vegan paradox where her passion and
her dedication are actually hindering the pause that she's trying
(14:24):
to promote.
Speaker 2 (14:25):
Yeah. It really highlights that delicate balance that all activists
have to navigate, you know, how to be passionate and
persuasive without being alienating or polarizing.
Speaker 1 (14:35):
Right, It's about finding that sweet spot where you can
connect with people on a human level, even when you're
discussing something that's sensitive or controversial.
Speaker 2 (14:45):
Yeah, exactly. And I think it's important to remember that
there's not just one way to be a vegan activist, right,
there's a whole spectrum of approaches within the movement.
Speaker 1 (14:53):
Yeah. And you actually sent over some examples of other
vegan influencers who are using very different tax you know,
they focus on reasoned arguments, scientific data, ethical discussions, personal stories,
sharing recipes. Yeah, and it just shows that you can
advocate for veganism without resorting to shouting matches or online feuds.
Speaker 2 (15:15):
Right. It's not about veganism itself being the problem. It's
about the methods that are being used.
Speaker 1 (15:21):
The methods of communication, exactly. So we've talked a lot
about the downsides, but have there been any like positive
aspects of her style or things that have actually been effective.
Speaker 2 (15:31):
Yeah, that's a good point. I mean, you know, while
her tactics have definitely been criticized a lot, you can't
deny that she has brought a lot of attention to
the issue of animal welfare. Yeah. And you know, for
some people, her you know, very strong stance and bold
statements might have actually been the thing that made them
start questioning their own choices.
Speaker 1 (15:52):
Right, So, even if her methods are seen as problematic,
she might have inadvertently been like a gateway for people
into the vegan world exactly.
Speaker 2 (15:59):
And you know, there's no one size fits all approach
to activism, right. What might be off putting to one
person might really resonate with someone else.
Speaker 1 (16:08):
It's true, and it makes me think about how, like
throughout history, social movements have often had these figures who
are seen as more like radical or controversial. Yeah, but
they still play a role in like pushing the boundaries
and getting attention for the cause.
Speaker 2 (16:22):
Right. It's not always the most polished or palatable voices
that end up creating change.
Speaker 1 (16:28):
Yeah, that's a good point, and it reminds us that
social change is rarely like a linear or comfortable process.
Speaker 2 (16:35):
Yeah, for sure.
Speaker 1 (16:35):
It often requires, you know, some discomfort, some disruption, challenging
the status quo. Absolutely, And so while that vegan teacher's
approach might not be the most effective in the long run, yeah,
her willingness to be so outspoken and uncompromising, even if
it means losing popularity, it has definitely made people think
differently about, you know, the way animals are treated, for sure.
Speaker 2 (16:58):
And I think it's interesting to think about how the
digital age has really changed the game when it comes
to activism. Oh yeah, you know, because now with social media,
anyone can potentially become like a global influencer. And that's
both exciting and a little bit scary.
Speaker 1 (17:12):
Yeah, it's a double edged.
Speaker 2 (17:13):
Sword, it is, because on the one hand, you have
this incredible reach, you know, you can connect with people
all over the world. But on the other hand, it
creates this environment where sensationalism and outrage often go viral,
and nuance and thoughtful dialogue can get lost in the shuffle.
Speaker 1 (17:30):
It's almost like the loudest voice wins, even if it's
not necessarily the most informed or the most constructive voice, right, And.
Speaker 2 (17:36):
I think that Vegan teacher story is a perfect example
of that. You know, she's been able to amass this
huge following and spark global conversations, but her approach has
also generated a ton of backlash and really contributed to
the polarization of this whole debate around veganism.
Speaker 1 (17:54):
Right. It's complicated, there's no easy answers, it is, and.
Speaker 2 (17:57):
It reminds us that even with the best intentions, the
way we communicate and the platforms we use can really
shape how our message is received, for sure.
Speaker 1 (18:07):
So as we kind of wrap up this deep dive
into that Vegan teacher, Yeah, what are some of the
key takeaways here? What can we learn from her story,
both the good and the bad, about effective communication, about
online activism, about the challenges of promoting social change.
Speaker 2 (18:21):
Well, I think one of the biggest takeaways for me
is just the power of language and tone.
Speaker 1 (18:25):
Mm hm.
Speaker 2 (18:26):
You know, how we say something can be just as
important as what we're actually saying, right, And you know,
her aggressive and confrontational style has really turned a lot
of people off.
Speaker 1 (18:36):
Yeah, even people who might agree with her on the
issue itself exactly.
Speaker 2 (18:40):
And so I think it's a reminder that empathy, respect,
a willingness to listen m hm. Those are crucial elements
of effective communication.
Speaker 1 (18:50):
Especially when you're talking about something sensitive or controversial. As
it's like you can catch more flies with honey than
with vinegar, right, exactly. People are just more receptive to
messages that are delivered with kindness.
Speaker 2 (19:02):
And understanding, even if it challenges their beliefs.
Speaker 1 (19:05):
Yeah, exactly. And another key takeaway is I think the
importance of really understanding your audience and tailoring your message accordingly.
Speaker 2 (19:14):
Oh yeah, for sure.
Speaker 1 (19:15):
You know, because what works for one group might not
work for another.
Speaker 2 (19:18):
Right, Different people are going to respond to different.
Speaker 1 (19:20):
Things, exactly, So it's about considering the values, the concerns,
the perspectives of the people you're trying to reach, and
framing your message in a way that resonates with them.
Speaker 2 (19:31):
And you know, you brought up earlier how some of
the other vegan influencers we talked about have been really
successful using different approaches.
Speaker 1 (19:38):
Some focus on the health benefits, some on the environment,
some on the ethical arguments, And it just shows that
there are many paths to promoting veganism and it's not
a one size fits all thing and it's.
Speaker 2 (19:49):
About being willing to meet people where they are. Yeah,
you know, not everyone's going to be at the same
stage of awareness or acceptance.
Speaker 1 (19:56):
Right, And I think the last thing I would add
is just the importance of critical thinking and wants.
Speaker 2 (20:00):
Well.
Speaker 1 (20:01):
Yeah, in our online interactions these days, especially these days,
it's so easy to get caught up in the drama
and the outrage, the clickbait. Yeah, but we have to
take a step back, evaluate the information we're consuming and
form our own opinions based on evidence and thoughtful consideration.
Speaker 2 (20:20):
We need to be critical consumers of information, especially in
the age of social media where misinformation can spread so quickly.
Speaker 1 (20:29):
So as we wrap up this deep dive into that
vegan teacher, Yeah, what's the final thought you want to
leave our listeners with?
Speaker 2 (20:37):
I think the most important thing to remember is that
every interaction we have, whether it's online or offline, is
an opportunity for connection and growth.
Speaker 1 (20:45):
That's a good point.
Speaker 2 (20:46):
You know, Even when we encounter people who have views
that we find challenging or even offensive, it's crucial to
approach those interactions with a sense of curiosity and a
willingness to understand.
Speaker 1 (20:59):
It's not about seeing it as a battle to be won.
It's about seeing it as a learning.
Speaker 2 (21:03):
Experience exactly, and remembering that behind every screen there's a
human being with their own story and experiences in.
Speaker 1 (21:10):
Perspective, well said, so to our listeners, we encourage you
to keep exploring, keep questioning, and keep the conversation going.
The world of veganism, like any social movement, is full
of complexities and contradictions and passionate individuals who are trying
to make a difference.
Speaker 2 (21:27):
And as we navigate this digital landscape, let's try to
approach each other with empathy and respect and a genuine
desire to understand.
Speaker 1 (21:36):
That's all for this deep dive. Thanks for joining us,
and we'll catch you on the next one.
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