Taking a Funeral Directors advice...Or not!!

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Episode 7 of Wild Conversations is a joy to listen to. Join your host, Jess, as she sits down with the ever-entertaining Steve, who's ready to unleash a torrent of jaw-dropping tales from the murky world of unscrupulous parrot traders where you will be astounded by the sheer horror of the tricks these individuals employed to offload their innocent feathered friends.

But it's not all doom and gloom! Steve, with his decades of experience, and Jess a zoologist with nearly a decade under her belt share their wisdom on general parrot care, with a special focus on the majestic (and sometimes demanding) cockatoos. 

Then, things take a delightfully bizarre turn. Steve explains the utterly disastrous advice he received from a funeral director, leading to a series of hilariously awkward situations. 

And just when you think the episode couldn't get any more chaotic, Steve recounts the time his own pet parrot decided to use a millionaire's priceless watch as a chew toy. Picture a room full of stunned silence, a destroyed luxury item, and Steve desperately trying to figure out where to put his face. It’s a moment of pure, unadulterated comedy gold.

So, if you’re ready for a mix of shocking revelations, practical parrot advice, and laugh-out-loud anecdotes, tune in to Episode 7 of "Feathers & Fiascos." You won't want to miss this feathered frenzy!

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Episode Transcript

Steve (00:15):
Good afternoon, how are you all?

Jess (00:16):
Good afternoon.

Steve (00:18):
Hi TikTok, hello Facebook and hello, twitch.

Jess (00:21):
Welcome to episode 7 of Wild Conversations.
I'm Jess.

Steve (00:26):
And I'm Steve.

Jess (00:27):
And today we're talking about the park.
I think we left off last time,with you quite obviously saving
the enclosure before it blewaway, because otherwise we
wouldn't have any enclosures, Iguess.

Steve (00:41):
Saved the entire sanctuary that day yeah you
saved the entire sanctuary thatday.

Jess (00:44):
Well done, steve.

Steve (00:45):
That's okay, that was the aviary that was for the
cockatools, yes, and for any ofyou guys that come to visit us
now, that aviary would have beenwhere the lemurs are, the
browns, the brown lemurs and themarmaduke oh, so like the first
enclosure you come to when youwalk in yes, but it was a long

(01:05):
thin aviary, but very long andabout 10 foot high.

Jess (01:09):
Oh, right when did it get changed into the smaller one?

Steve (01:12):
when we got the lemurs you know, when we actually think
about it, you know it would besome strange things happen.
So when we very first started,you don't know.
Well, I don't know anybody.
I couldn't go to anybody andsay, have you built a zoo before
?

Jess (01:28):
no, it's not.

Steve (01:29):
There's not like a handbook for me, I guess is
there so we I did a plan, I gota nice plan done, okay, and then
it was based on we buildenclosures for different animals
or for different birds, sosmall birds don't need as heavy
duty, so they can be a lot morefancy.
Yeah, and I do genuinelyunderstand why zoos like

(01:49):
mainstream zoos don't have a lotof parrots they destroy
everything they destroyeverything.
They're quite dirty, they'requite messy and they're probably
one of the very few animalsthat people don't realise that
you have to wear protection alot of times.

Jess (02:05):
Yeah, you do especially with like the cockatoos,
especially the bigger speciesyou have to go in with like full
armour on.
We've got A chintz or helmet.
Yeah, they're forestry helmets,aren't they.
With the visor and the earmuffsand the neck brace yeah.

Steve (02:19):
So it's basically it's fun.
It's definitely fun.
And some of the parrots Iremember can you remember?
Kazal used to work for us.
She once got a bit on her faceand we always shouted to her and
said, well, you must wear yourhead protection and she said I
did.
But the parrots have learnt tolift the visor up and bite under
the cockatoos especially, werein love with that.

Jess (02:38):
They'd learnt the mechanism worked.
So they did, especially Frank.
Frank was known Frank's, alesser sulfur crested cockatoo.
He's still with us and he isknown to be a face hugger.
He used to, especially with Kaz.
He used to get right under hervisor and sit close to her face
here, and every day that I'd seeher do it I would say to her

(02:59):
I'd be like Frank's going tobite you one day If you're not
careful.

Steve (03:08):
And one day he really did , didn't he?
Yeah, and when they bite you,there's usually a reason for it,
and that reason usually ends upgiving you a proper haul.
The thing about cockatoos is,what we used to call them in the
olden days was foot tappers.
Right.
So, cockatoos, when they getangry, they tap their feet.

Jess (03:21):
Right.

Steve (03:22):
And it's a well-known thing that they do it.
The palm cockatoo does it for adifferent reason.
The palm cockatoo is probablythe only solitary parrot that
there is.
Oh really.
Yeah, and they're the big blackparrots, so they're the really
fantastic looking ones.

Jess (03:40):
They are gorgeous.
I'm going to bring up a picture.

Steve (03:43):
And they literally live on their own.
And what they do at once peryear when they come to breed,
they have quite a funny habit.
What they do is they actuallygo to the top of a tree that's
got no leaves or anything, it'sjust a stump at the top and they
stand up there and they get anice stick about six or eight

(04:07):
inch long.
that's hollow right and theystand and bang it like a drum
and they'll bang it, attracting,obviously, drum liking ladies.
So there's another cockatoo,another female cockatoo,
somewhere in the jungle, andthen she'll just hear this, and

(04:28):
when she starts banging it back,that's when there's love in the
air.

Jess (04:31):
So they like drum into each other.

Steve (04:33):
Yes, and that's what?
Oh is it that's in love, butthis is what a palm cockatoo
looks like.

Jess (04:39):
So that's a.

Steve (04:39):
Goliath palm Gorgeous, and they are Again.

Jess (04:43):
They're unusual in the fact that a july palm is
different to normal palms onlythe fact that they're bigger oh
okay, uh, but the uh, the thingthat I found about them.

Steve (04:52):
I've had a couple of mates, a couple of colleagues,
that's actually owned them andthe.
The real strange thing aboutthem is I've never known one to
be a biter really they're theonly parrots I mean.
I've only been bit once withthe hyacinths, yeah, and that's
because they're quite possessive.
They're quite boisterous.
Yes, they are, they really are.
They're quite possessive andthey've grown up.

(05:13):
They've been with us since theywere tiny babies, haven't they?
They have, yeah.
And so they get a little bit,even play.

Jess (05:26):
Their beaks are so blooming big they really are and
it really hurts.

Speaker 3 (05:27):
I want to show you what a high school parrot is,
whereas the Porn Cockatoo.

Steve (05:30):
I should not see one because they're quite special oh
yeah, I mean, they're one ofthe rarest parrots in the world
and they're definitely thebiggest parrot in the world look
they're lovely they are properblue and yellow parrots, aren't
they?

Jess (05:45):
They?
Are very odd looking for aparrot.
I think they're very clown yeahthey're like clown-fied.

Steve (05:52):
You look at the face and it looks like a clown.
I don't know why they wouldhave the yellow.
There's only the Vasa parrotthat we know that has that kind
of yellow underneath itsfeathers.
But they are very, very, verylovely animals.
But when they bite.

Jess (06:07):
Oh my lord, do you know about it?
So anyway, so they like tostand on one leg and they like
to.

Steve (06:12):
But foot tapping ones is when they actually get uh
threatening, then they willliterally they'll dance like a
little bit, like a little kid inthe supermarket.
They want something.

Jess (06:21):
They'll do the little foot frank used to do that a lot to
be fair.

Steve (06:24):
He used to be fair.

Jess (06:26):
He used to look at you and think I'm going to get you
today and then do a little danceand then try and get you.

Steve (06:33):
I always thought I could override that.
I always thought I could.
It's how I contained that.

Jess (06:38):
I felt like I could, especially with cockatoos.
I tend to prefer cockatoos overany other species of parrot.
I just get on with them reallywell.
Um, but frank was frank's anexception.
Frank and me, don't get on hejust doesn't want love.

Steve (06:51):
He wants to bite your face see, we have different
feelings about cockatoos.
You'll.
You'll love cockatoos forcockatoos, yeah and you and
they're very dangerous animals.
They really are I.
I'm into cockatoos because Ithink cockatoos were only put on
this planet to be the bane ofmy life.
I think they're one of the mostintelligent animals.

(07:12):
They are.

Jess (07:12):
They're also one of the most loving I find out of all
the parrots.

Steve (07:15):
Well, we used to have many, many years ago we used to
have a chap here called Neil, acracking lad, and we did a
spectrum.
So we did like a rainbowspectrum and it had all the
emotions on it.
Right, it had all theaggression, it had the noise,
yes, it had the lovingness.
And African Grey is like amutilation.
African Grey used to come likein little bits around, so

(07:37):
they're never really noisy, butthey can be annoying.
Yeah, they're very rarelyreally loving.
Yeah, no, but you'll get one ortwo that are they're very rarely
really loving, but you'll getone or two that are yeah, but
not overly talking brilliantability, whereas cockatools were
always on both extreme ends.
If they wanted loving, theywanted 24, 7 loving.
If they wanted to bite you,they were going to kill you,

(07:59):
yeah, and if they wanted toscream, they wanted to deafen
you, yeah.
Yeah, there was no.
So cockatoos were always, and Ialways thought that that's one
of the reasons why they wouldn'tmake good pets.

Jess (08:09):
No, they definitely don't make good pets.
Cockatoos in general don't makegood pets at all.
They are just so, so extreme.
Yeah.
They are.
You can over love themmassively.

Steve (08:20):
Well, I think that this is the issue.
I mean and this is what we tryto say to a lot of people I mean
, over the years and the amountof times that people say things
that they don't realise how truethey are when they say I love
it to death and that's what theyactually do.
Yeah, because when you try to,in the early days, when you were
trying to study parrots andexplain parrots to people, you
realise that a six-month-oldparrot with a little bit of

(08:42):
character to it is like one ofthe best creatures.
It's a little bit like a10-week-old tiger.

Jess (08:50):
Yes.

Steve (08:50):
You look at it and think, oh my Lord, that's amazing.

Jess (08:53):
That wasn't like a, that wasn't a relatable example,
though.

Steve (08:57):
No, no, no For us in the zoo world.

Jess (09:00):
I thought you were going to go like it's like a
10-week-old baby, and I was likeokay.

Steve (09:05):
No, okay, no, it's like a 10-week-old.

Jess (09:07):
We all have one of those.

Steve (09:08):
No, because where I'm going is this is that one day
you walk into that 10-week-oldtiger, a 10-day-old tiger or
whatever it is, and you look andthink, oh, this is now a
dangerous cat?
Yeah.
So you don't go in anymore.
Yeah, and what happens withparrots is exactly the same that
and that there's more peopleget bit by parrots and tigers.

(09:29):
Uh, so what usually happens isyou've got this unbelievable
bundle of feathers that will doanything and and play, and be
nice and and talk and everything, but then they just hit this
certain age and things becomevery unpredictable.
And what I learned very quicklywas where parrots are very,

(09:50):
very clever is parrots will andI don't want to stick up for
parrots and be anti-people here,but when a parrot's in a cage
in a house, they haven't gotmuch to do.

Jess (10:01):
They haven't no.

Steve (10:02):
And no matter what you put in that cage, parrots are so
intelligent, they very quicklywork it out.
Yeah, there's only so much youcan stimulate, and then what
they do then is they're very,they have acute vision, they're
fully alert to all theirsurroundings and they notice
things on us.
So if you was to go to, uh,feed a parrot and a lot of

(10:23):
parrots when they go to step upon you and we used to say this,
I mean when I was laughing andjoking about Graham on a couple
of episodes ago saying that theyhang on- yeah, and they bite
him, they do.
Hang on, and if you'll trustyour parrot, you can put your
hand out and he'll put his beakdown, first onto your hand, yeah
, and then step up, yeah, andthat's fine because you can
trust him.
But what happens is one day you, he does that and he's feeling
a bit rubbish and he bites you,and when he bites you it

(10:47):
triggers a whole new, somethinghe's not seen before, and it's
usually obviously that's whereswear words come from.
But he sees something and thenall of a sudden he logs out and
thinks oh, wait a minute, if Idon't want to do something, then
that's all I've got to do now,because cockatoos are
unbelievably clever.
If they sat in a cage a longtime, they see what happens when

(11:07):
they scream.
Yeah.
They see what happens when theyscream at the right time.
Yeah, and so if you pick a phoneup, or if you're watching TV
and they know that if you scream, what they love to do is they
want you to scream and more thanlikely you do so.
These birds and cockatoos, theyused to watch and they
genuinely studied people as muchas people studied them, and

(11:28):
within a very short period oftime they became a pain.
So they'd want loving, they'dwant to sit on your knee and
they'd want to sit on your kneefor five hours, and if you did
it for four hours and 50 minutes, they were going to… Not good
enough, not good enough.
They were going to scream foranother two hours and they go
back in and this is where theirintelligence goes straight into
the waste paper bin If they'vegot the Mardis on or if they

(11:51):
want.
So we found that in the earlydays most cockatoos were
addicted to pine nuts.

Jess (11:57):
Oh, okay.

Steve (11:59):
And they loved them.
And pine nuts have got a littlebit of like because you just
put hemp seed in as well andthey have the same kind of like
effect of sends the heads alittle bit funny psychedelic.
Yes, that's right.

Speaker 3 (12:12):
So so pine nuts they used to be addicted to and what
they were doing.

Jess (12:12):
Pine nuts were very expensive.
You're telling me that allthese properties were like
getting high.
They're all high here they were.

Steve (12:17):
They were ratched.
Oh no, you're walking.
You see their eyes looking atyou think all right, it's been
on the end, it's been on the imp, it's been on the imp, it's had
an accident on the imp, it'sgoing to get us.
But this is where theirintelligence goes straight
through the window.
You would give them a half aball of seed, and there'd be two
pine nuts in there, so they'dthrow the entire lot of seed

(12:38):
away underneath just to get thetwo pine nuts, just to get the
two pine nuts and then think, oh, that's brilliant, oh, I'm
hungry.

Jess (12:44):
Oh no.

Steve (12:45):
Oh, where's my?

Jess (12:47):
food.

Steve (12:47):
Oh, it was causing an actual issue, so it was a
massive issue and we used to tryto say to people I did a lot of
studies in the early days andwe used to think I wonder how
much food is actually thrownaway?
Yeah, and in a cockatoo cageabout 70 food is on the floor on
the floor.
So then, not only have you got abird that's wanting your
attention, that's been locked ina cage for probably yeah, I

(13:09):
don't know 10 hours, 12 hours,yeah, the average parrot, but
these are all these.
This sounds like a, sounds likethe average parrot spends about
I would say about let's do itthe other way around about two
or three hours out of the cage,okay, uh, out of 24.
So about 22 hours 21 hours inthe cage 22 or three two or

(13:32):
three yeah, so there's 21.
All right, so there's 21 hoursin the cage?
Yes, so if the average parrotlists to 24 years old, yeah, he
spends 21 years in the cage.
Oh, now, now tell me why he'sangry, yeah.

Jess (13:46):
Now why is he angry, I wonder.
So in terms of like I don'tknow whether anyone's done this,
I don't know whether you'velooked into it.
On average, how many parrotsare in cages where they can't
extend their wings?

Steve (13:58):
Oh well, I think there's only.

Jess (14:01):
Do most cages come, built to the extent where they, like a
macaw, could stretch its wings.

Steve (14:06):
I mean.

Jess (14:06):
I guess in that case then they can always stretch their
wings.

Steve (14:08):
Right.
There's a law that came out afew years ago that a parrot
should be able to spread itswings by one and a half times.

Jess (14:14):
Okay.

Steve (14:15):
But that would mean for a macaw.
An average wingspan of a macawis about four foot, so that
means it would have to be atleast six foot wide.
How many cages have you seenthat you can buy from the shop
six foot wide?
There's none, no so, althoughthey've created these laws so
when did that law come in?

(14:35):
Uh, probably about eight to tenyears ago now oh wow, that's a
long time ago yes I thought youmeant like in the last two or
three years.

Jess (14:42):
No, they keep changing they keep trying.

Steve (14:43):
so they did a pet shop law a few years ago where they
turned on and said becauseobviously there's certain
organisations like pet shops andlike veterinary surgeries and
things like that, they can getaway with other things because
they might not have them intheir cages for very long If
they've got a good turnaround ofanimals yeah, I wonder if they
can get away with certain stuffbecause it's temporary.

Jess (15:02):
Yeah, so that's right.

Steve (15:03):
So they can turn around and say, like a vet, if we take
a parrot to the vet, he doesn'thave to have a four-foot cage or
a six-foot cage, he can justhave a holding cage because it's
there.
Yeah, it's like, basically, whenyou're in hospital, you're in
bed and that's it.
And same with pet shops.
I think pet shops are slightlydifferent.
There's owned a pet shop before.

(15:28):
Yes, because he's a specialist,a reptile, yeah, and he knows
the laws.
And the laws when they changeda few years ago yeah, because
there was some new laws onlyabout three or four years ago
and when they changed, give youan example a friend of ours, uh,
who runs tropical birdland,richard hopperper.
He was an unbelievable breederand although we don't breed,

(15:49):
there's certain responsiblebreeders out there that are very
good.
Yes, and he was one of those,and his birds were always
amazing.
His birds were reallywell-hand-reared.
You also have this lady calledKaren who was by far I think
she's got around a hundred morebirds than probably anybody in
this country.
Really, she could, actually shewas amazing, she really was.

(16:10):
She still is, she hasn't goneanywhere, she hasn't died, she's
still with us.
But the difference is is a fewyears ago I spoke to Richard and
I was talking to him about thisand he said I don't do it no
more.
And I said why?
He said I can't because thecouncil, the new laws say that
even baby birds have to go inthese cages.
Well, if you've got 50youngsters, where are you going

(16:32):
to put 55-foot cages?

Jess (16:33):
You just physically can't.
No, there's not enough room.

Steve (16:36):
So he had to stop.
So these parrots becomefrustrated right from day one in
the fact that they do live Now.
Don't get me wrong, they do getused to it.
It's a bit like a big dogliving in a small house.

Jess (16:49):
I mean some parrots we've seen become agoraphobic.

Steve (16:52):
Well, they've become very agoraphobic.
Yes.

Jess (16:53):
Where they hate being in a large space.
We've had to therapise andrehabilitate a couple of parrots
who have become very, veryengrossed in their own space.

Steve (17:05):
And I rehabilitate a couple of parrots who have
become very, very engrossed intheir own space and I think some
of them never get over it.
No so which is why we have toalways look at when you're
assessing a bird we've got to goaway from people's opinions.
Sometimes they say, oh, thatdon't look very good in there if
that's the only thing thatmakes him happy yes then it's
not a case of what we think.
Is that the right or wrong thing?
This is?
I think this is going down theold story of if you, if you

(17:25):
speak to most vets and you talk,and we've talked, we've not
actually talked about it.
We've, we've skirted aroundthis a few times, but, uh, with
the likes of wing clipping yes alot of vets will say oh no, you
can't clip.
You can't clip their wingsbecause if you do you'll
mentally cause mental problems.
Uh, you cause physical problemsthat their muscles don't
develop correctly.
Now, that may be the case incertain instances.

(17:48):
It's not the case in allinstances, but unfortunately
these parrots aren't in anatural environment no, they're
not born in an environment.

Jess (17:56):
They don't even go into a natural environment once in most
of their life the majority ofthem provide as much of a
natural life as they couldpossibly have, but even then, we
it's still not natural, it'sstill.

Steve (18:06):
It's all artificial and the issue you've got is is like,
when you've got these parrots,that you've got to and this is
always sound.
This is really controversial.
This because it's one of thesehard-hitting facts.
Forget about science, forgetabout medicine, forget about
feelings.
It's a fact if a parrot's goingto live, if you buy, if you
spend a thousand pound on aparrot and they tell you it's

(18:27):
going to live for 50 years,you've got to give it 50 years
of life.
You don't have to that withyour kids no I mean having a
parrot is a bigger.
It's a big commitment it's not abigger commitment, it's a big
commitment to have and it's alot more long term in the fact
of the, the needs it's got.

Jess (18:44):
Yeah, so what we try to say to people.
You don't, on the other hand,though, have to pay for the
parrot to go to like school.
So there is that, I guess.

Steve (18:51):
Well, true, but also you don't get paid from the
government for having a parrot.

Jess (18:54):
No, that's my idea.

Steve (18:56):
So when people have got these parrots and they've lived
in a time, people's opinionsaround them are irrelevant.
One of the things that wehaven't had on these podcasts is
if any one of us get thegiggles and I think somebody's
gonna get one, so that justshocked me okay it made me do
this is not gonna be good thisis gonna be a 44 minutes of very

(19:21):
serious conversation.
Yeah, we've had all these daftconversations where I've made
jokes and you've only laughedfor about three seconds.

Jess (19:28):
I know Winnie's made me laugh for ages.
Is he all right?
I'm concerned.
Is he, he's fine, he, literallyjumped about 10 foot in the air
.

Steve (19:34):
He's fine, he's okay.

Jess (19:35):
Okay, okay, you were saying.

Steve (19:45):
He's just had a.
I nearly said he'd just beencatastrophised, catastrophised.
And then I couldn't think ofthe word.
So he'd just been castrated andI was going to say you
frightened the nuts off him, butyou can't, because he hadn't
got any.
But I said catastrophised, andI don't know, is that a word,
catastrophised?

Jess (20:04):
I think you can.
Catastroph, no, is it?

Steve (20:11):
There's a catastrophe.
Could somebody please Googlecatastrophised.

Jess (20:15):
I'll read as I said, it is a word.

Steve (20:17):
Oh, it is.

Jess (20:18):
Catastrophised.
Yeah, because I think it's whenyou like.

Steve (20:21):
I don't think it's pronounced like that.
When you make something toomuch of a drama, yeah, yeah, so
it's pronounced like that, whenyou make something too much of a
drama.

Jess (20:28):
Yeah, yeah.
So it's like catastrophic, yeah, when you're catastrophizing
things, this doesn't sound right.

Steve (20:34):
What is it when you're catastrophizing?
This word's getting stupid nowhave you done that?
You've said the word so manytimes.
It just doesn't sound like aword.
No more.
Yeah.

Jess (20:41):
I was writing.
What was I writing the otherday?
Small, over and over and overagain.
Doesn't look right.
In fact, now I'm thinking aboutit, I don't know whether I
spelt it right, Wait, no wait.
Maybe I was writing smell.

Steve (20:55):
Why was I?

Jess (20:55):
writing it.

Steve (20:57):
Maybe I was dreaming this .
I think we've gone down thewrong avenue here now.

Jess (21:00):
The smell.

Steve (21:03):
Why was I writing smell over?

Jess (21:06):
and over again.
It's better than writing smallno idea.

Steve (21:09):
No, carry on this time.
So no idea, we don't know wherewe're going now.
We've gone, the cat has thrownus out.
So, basically, so what we weretalking about?
We were talking about wingclipping and what's right and
what's wrong.
Yes.

(21:29):
And it's trying to say to, tolike say the vet, come here and
I'll not mention his name,although he'll know it is when
he came, uh, and and he came,and he used to come to see me a
lot and and we got on reallywell.
And when he was here I don'tknow why, but the subject uh was
broached about wing clippingand he says, no, we, we don't
want your clipping any wings.
So I said, all right, why isthat?
He says because it's likecutting the legs off a child.
And I says, oh right, that's abit harsh.
The legs grow back the weekafter.

(21:50):
Yeah, so right, so this word'sgonna get thrown in.
Sorry guys, you best get at-shirt out.
I've been catastrophized I'vebeen catastrophized.

Jess (22:03):
I've been catastrophized.
Just a picture of winnie's face, yeah that's it up in the air.

Steve (22:11):
I've been catastrophized okay so and I said no, I think
you're being a little bitdramatic, dramatic and stop
catastrophizing.
And he said, uh, no, it isn't.
I said it is because if you cutsomebody's legs off, they're
not going to grow a bite.
It's like cutting your hair.
Or, like I said, it's likecutting hair and putting a lead
on a dog.
Yeah, the instant you take itoff, and he says no, no, it
isn't, it's right.

(22:31):
And this is where this storyturns a little bit.
So, uh, and we had this big,huge discussion, sat in the
diner and I said no, I saidyou're writing the ethical side
of things, absolutely 100.
Writing the ethical side ofthings of it doesn't sound nice.
Cutting a parrot's wing?
No, because you're taking awaythe, the facility and the

(22:51):
ability to fly.
But how many parrots can fly?

Jess (22:56):
in a house, in their cages .
They're all big enough, theyjust physically can't so.

Steve (23:00):
So we had this discussion and I'm not saying anybody won
or lost, but we both believed inwhat we said.
Then fast track about six totwelve months and I got a phone
call from this vet's wife.
She says if you ever comeacross a, an umbrella cockatoo,
would you?
Uh, a nice one yeah that one ofthese that you said needs

(23:20):
people rather than parrots, willyou let me know?
And I said, yeah, of course.
Well, I says, uh, as a mate foryours.
And he went.
She said, not really, no, ourshas died.

Speaker 3 (23:30):
So I said, all right so I said as it just died.

Steve (23:33):
So I said, well no, it flew into the tomato soup on the
on the oven on the cooker and Iwent oh that's horrific that's.
That ain't nice at all, is it?
And she said no.
And I said but you wouldn'thave done that if it had been
clipped, would it?

Jess (23:50):
Don't.
You didn't say that I didbecause we had this big argument
.
Not with her.
She was brilliant.

Steve (23:59):
And she says no, that's exactly what I said.
So she says if you, as ithappened and this is a real
coincidence, as it happened Idid actually have one and I said
if you want to come down, youcan come down and pick it up.
And when she came down, shesaid will you clip it?
Yeah, and then when I go backI'll just say it was clipped,
yeah.

Jess (24:15):
And then Unless she had some sense about it.
Oh, she would really Flyinginto a to go.

Steve (24:21):
yes, I don't think that actually killed it, I think it
was the after bits.
But that was the start of it.
But I think basically and shewas a lovely vet, she really was
, she was very nice and uh, soshe said, and for weeks and
weeks after she'd phone and sayI can't remember what they
called this parrot, but it waslovely little white umbrella
cockatoo.
And she'd keep phoning me andsaying, uh, he's doing this and

(24:43):
he's doing that, he's doing theother.
And then probably about 12, 14months later she said if you're
ever driving past, can you nipin quickly, clip it and don't
let them know that you'veclipped the secret clipping.
So it was a secret, a secretclipping, but the idea is, when
you're trying to give a parrot aquality of life, which is
really, really difficult, nomatter what is in captivity?

(25:03):
It's incredible, no matter whatanybody says, see, because
everything works against eachother, because we all want this
unbelievably demandingintelligent creature until
you've got it, and then whatyou've got is a demanding
intelligent creature.

Jess (25:16):
And you don't want it to be demanding anymore and you
can't keep up with it and youwant it to have attention on
your own time.

Steve (25:20):
Well, unfortunately, dogs fit into our lifestyles.
And unfortunately dogs fit intoour lifestyles.

Speaker 3 (25:27):
Yeah, these little critters here fit into their own
lifestyles and we have to fitinto them, parrots, you have to
cater for absolutely 100%.

Jess (25:35):
Yeah, 24-7.

Steve (25:36):
And no matter how many times you think I can trust him
and, believe me, I've trustedparrots to my fault so many
times the damage that parrotshave caused in my houses.
Honestly, some of the thingsthat's happened and I remember
some of these things that Ithink and I tell people so many
of these different stories,because there's so many stories

(25:57):
that we've had where I've justthought for one second I can
trust it.
I had a chap come to see me, avery, very wealthy chap, and he
came to see me about parrots andI was trying to talk him out of
parrots and he pulled up on mydrive and he had this huge
Bentley and he came in andeverything about him was just

(26:18):
dripping money.
And I'm trying my hardest tosay to him, honestly, a parrot
won't, don't do it.
Every single thing.
And as I'm looking at him'mthinking god, every, every his
ring, his watch, his necklace,every single thing he's got is
going to be damaged.
Yeah, and I've got eric theumbrella, cockatoo, and then
he's.
And it's really difficult when,when your life is probably a

(26:39):
little bit like the only way Ican imagine this is it's like
watching somebody like jamieoliver or, uh or uh, james
Martin, when they're cooking andthey're doing things, we're
fooled that you think why can'tI toss the pan like that?
Yeah, they do that becausethat's their life.
When you try to end up on thefloor, yeah, and I've got the
parrot and I'm talking to himand I've got.

(26:59):
So I'm trying not to sayparrots are amazing, but what
I'm doing is amazing.
Yeah, because I've got thisparrot that's hanging about me
and I'm doing this.
And he says, oh, steve.
He says you know I'm going togo and get one.
And so I said, well, I'd ratheryou didn't.
And Eric went wandering off andit went wandering onto his knee.
So little things started tohappen.
So he's got this unbelievablyexpensive suit on and as Eric

(27:27):
walked across it, he left thiswhite trail of dust and I'm like
looking, thinking, oh, he's gotdust all over his suit.
And I said you've got dust allover your suit.
He said, oh, don't worry aboutthat.
As he's doing it, his buttonhad gone off his suit thing
within less than a second.
Oh my God.
And he went oh my God, do yousee what he's done there?
So I said, yeah, and that'swhat he'll do all the time.

(27:47):
And then he's got him on his armlike that and he's talking away
.
I'm trying my hardest, likeindirectly, to talk him out of
it.
And while we're talking, he'sletting him mess about with his
ring and his watch andeverything, yep.
And as he did it, I heard this,oh, this, and then I turned

(28:08):
around he got a rolex watch onand it snapped the winder off it
, the winding thing that is onthere and it would need to be.
You know, I could have actuallydied.
I, I never, ever.
I don't believe in animalcruelty, but I could have killed
it.
And he looked at me steward, hecalled him, and he looked at me
and went that's me, rolex.

Jess (28:23):
You know the shivers down here.
It's like yeah because youprobably thought you're gonna
have to pay for it.

Steve (28:27):
I didn't know what to do.
So it he didn't, uh, he endedup having an african gray right,
and he he actually, in allhonesty, how many rolexes did he
go?
through.
In all honesty, I don't evercondone people and I've never
met anybody that will condonepeople having parrots as pets.
I don't try to.
I don't talk them out of itbecause that's wrong after the
amount of birds that we'velooked after, but I try my

(28:50):
hardest to give them as muchpossible negative as he can.
But this chap, he bought anAfrican grey and he said, right,
can I have him clipped?
So I said yep.
So I said, but what about yourdaily routine?
And everything he says says,right, I've got about, and I

(29:13):
think he had something like sixor seven hundred student flats
and at one of the receptionswhere every student went in, he
had the full corner about thissize, a full corner kitted out
with branches and everything.
So the parrot lived there inthe day and went home with him
at night time, right, sothroughout the day it's all
about 600 students every day.
So this parrot was soentertained and entertaining it

(29:34):
was perfect.
Yeah, and part of the deal wasI would find him somebody that
got baby African greys.
I would hand, rear it and thenI would go and maintain it.
So I go and check it every week, make sure it's all right.
Yeah, never seen a parrot ashappy in your life and it was so
there were so many people inits life.
It's probably.

(29:55):
I don't.
I don't think I've met manyfully gregarious parrots.
They always like man, woman orsomebody.
They've got their lives allthey like.
But this we had probablyslightly different when I said
that I met two parents oncecalled Woody and Casper Woody

(30:17):
and Casper.
Woody was unbelievablyintelligent, hated people.
Casper was thick as they come,loved people and you could do
anything to them.
Woody knew about 500 words,casper knew about 20.
Right, but one of the bestwords he knew was give us a kiss
.
So everybody loved him.
Woody didn't have that ability.
But woody stripped himself downto zero feathers, yeah, and

(30:40):
ended up having a.
It ended over it over years.
Casper might still be going nowbecause he was the big, thick
oar that were like don't want todo it, don't need anything.

Jess (30:49):
You tend to find that the more intelligent parrot species
self-harm more.

Steve (30:53):
Oh, definitely yes.

Jess (30:54):
Which kind of correlates to the same thing as in humans,
the higher your IQ is, the morelikely you are to have a mental
disability.
Yeah, and suffer from stressbecause you seem to know what
what's coming I kind of rememberwhy we started talking about
cockatoos in the first place.

Steve (31:10):
I think we were talking about cockatoos, because we're
talking about the aviary that Ibuilt, which was oh yeah so the
aviary was for cockatoos andthen we just we just ventured
off.
So let's, let's go away fromthat, let's go back to the
aviary, let's go back to.
Should we go back to thesanctuary?
Yeah, let's go back to thesanctuary.
So so what we did is, uh, thatwas one of the very first
aviaries that were built, uh,and that's the one that the roof

(31:30):
tried to blow off on, theliterally on the couple of
nights.
But then from there it was likewhat do we actually?
It's so difficult.
We've learned so much sincethen, because when we started
building, we thought we kneweverything.
Yeah, and we actually didn't.
And so it was like what do webuild and where do we build
things?

Jess (31:51):
So did you use steel panels?

Steve (31:53):
Yeah, so there was a chap in Louth called Rob and you
meet some of these diamondsevery now and then and he was a
bit like Vin that we've got now.
Yeah, you can talk to him, andas you're talking to him, you
are trying to think of somethingthat he knows.
You know, like we're justdesigning a new brooder now
because we have another problem,and that is when you do an
intensive care brooder for aparrot, when it goes in there

(32:15):
it's really ill and really likedying, yeah.
And then you bring it round andyou gain it better and the
instant it gets better it stops.
It just destroys everything.
It just destroys the brood thatyou put it in.
So we have made a steel andthen we try to fabricate things
around them to try to make themsolid, because nobody's ever
done one.
We've just been looking at itthat way.

Jess (32:34):
We have, yeah, we've been looking at trying to buy a
pre-built brooder specificallyfor parrots and, to be perfectly
honest, there's no one in thecountry doing what we're doing
to this scale.
No, there's only a handful ofplaces in the in the world that
are doing what we're doing.
So the actual need for a parrotspecific brooder that can heat,

(32:56):
that can also like do thingslike nebulize and regulate and
you've got to clean it it'scleanable and it's hyg's
hygienic and it has parts on theinside that can't break off
Like it's hard.
It's just we're asking for animpossibility.

Steve (33:11):
Well, we bought one.
This is a strange thing becauseJess actually said to me she
says can't we just have the samebrooder as we've got?

Jess (33:18):
Because we've got a mismatch at the moment.
Just because, like, obviouslytime has moved on since the 20
years that you've built asanctuary.

Steve (33:25):
Yeah.

Jess (33:25):
So we've got our original brooder.

Steve (33:28):
Yes.

Jess (33:29):
That is from.

Steve (33:30):
It was from Italy and they call it Lions.

Jess (33:31):
Lions and it's amazing, it's stood the test of time.
It's still standing today.
It works perfectly.

Steve (33:37):
I wonder how many parrots have been in it Too many.

Jess (33:38):
There's been, there's been , there's been, it's seen every
parrot under the sun.

Steve (33:42):
Yep.

Jess (33:43):
And it's just amazing.
It's a great brooder.
However, the company doesn'texist anymore because it's 20
years on.
Yep so the next set of broodersthat we got were Brinzee.

Steve (33:53):
Brinzee and unfortunately I mean they're a fabulous
company.
They are, and the product isamazing for a bird, but a
brooder is what a brooder is ababy bird.

Jess (34:03):
Yes and we're not harbouring baby birds.
No, we're looking after illbirds sometimes as intensive
care units.
Yeah, they're intensive careunits, so they see all sorts of
different things in all sorts ofdifferent states.
So I mean, they're good forwhat their intended purpose is,
but what we want to use them forthey're too flimsy.

Steve (34:22):
Yes.

Jess (34:23):
Essentially.

Steve (34:24):
Yeah, there's things on them that I mean, like we said,
when you put a parrot in, that'sill, it is ill, and parrots are
very dramatic, aren't they?

Jess (34:31):
Yeah, they are, they, really are they?

Steve (34:32):
let you know when they're ill.
They go down ill really quicklyand they let you know about it.
But then what they don't do,they secretly like come back
alive again and come away anddon't let you know until you put
your hand in.
Uh, but then it really hurts,it does, yeah, and you can't do
anything because it's alreadyill we have one of those today.
We have yeah it's just got me,I've got blood.
Look, I've got blood andeverything all over, because it

(34:53):
was dying and I picked it up andit said, no, I'm not really, I
just look like I'm pretending,so, but then when they come
around, they've everything, asyou know, is made of this
plastic today, and it's eitherextruded or blown or molded, and
it doesn't last five secondswith a parrot beak nobody
actually works out what you cando with a parrot beak, no, and
we find them like upside down onthe filters, you know, like

(35:15):
ripping the hinges off yeah,you've got to open the door up
and then realize that this sidedoesn't open no more.
It's that side because it tookthe hinges off.
So it is very, very difficult.

Jess (35:25):
You're dealing with an animal, that is yeah, so
recently we've upgraded tohaving our our own type of
brooders sort of made we hadsome made, yes, but even they
weren't perfect no, they're notperfect.
They come with their ownproblems.

Steve (35:38):
We've just never found the perfect thing for and we've
looked at everything I oncelooked at, uh, I once, and this
is a terrible story, but it'ssomething that, oh, I've just
thought of another story as well.

Jess (35:50):
Oh no.

Steve (35:50):
You know, when you do something.
I've just thought of something.
Come on, I'm going to tell youthis is not going to do you,
this is not going to make things.
I hope you're not eating, oh no, this is a long time.
So, anyway, I've justremembered where I was.
As I was talking, so about 25,30 years ago, I got called by
the RSPCA and said we areparting with some cages that we

(36:13):
use in our hospitals, and I know, every time I speak to anybody
I always say what's the bestcage to use?
You know, for intensive care andthings like that.
What's the best thing?
Well, again, the RSPCA.
They're mainly mammals, it's alot easier and anyway.
So, if you imagine, it's like acage, from a good size, a good
depth, and it was made out ofreally tough fiberglass Okay,

(36:34):
but they were perfect in thefact, they were dead easy to
clean and it was white, and theywere all white and they said
we're just changing out ourfacility.
Do you want all the others?
I thought definitely.
Yes, I think we're about 12.
So I had all these and I fittedthem all onto the walls in.
So where I lived in sheffield,I had uh oh, this is
pre-sanctuary oh, this ispre-sanctuary.
This is yes, okay you'll seewhy.

(36:54):
So so it's got four levels.
So, on the and it sounds a bitstrange, but the level that you
went in off the road, uh, so youwent in.
Yeah, so you've come off theroad, so you come off your
driveway.

Jess (37:05):
I thought we were talking about going into cages.

Steve (37:08):
No, we're going into sheffield, I'm going into my
house.
I'm trying to explain my houseto you right?

Jess (37:11):
okay, so we're going on a detour, you're going a bit of a
detour.

Steve (37:16):
So your level that you're coming off your house, yeah,
off the road was like the livingroom and kitchen right, and
hallway and dining room, andthen you had three floors
upstairs and a floor downstairs,so it was quite a tall house,
okay.
Yeah, the one downstairs Ikitted out as my office, yeah,
and my hospital, right for anyemergency birds, okay.
So what I did is I thought,well, what I'll do is so it was

(37:38):
underneath the living room andthe kitchen, yes, and I thought
what I'll do is I'll actuallybuild a, uh, a hospital unit.
And they gave me these 12hospital units.

Jess (37:48):
I thought wow, that's brilliant so.

Steve (37:50):
I fitted them all in and, in all honesty, it looked quite
amazing, did it?
It looked brilliant and Ithought yeah.

Jess (37:56):
I know what I'm doing.
I think.

Steve (37:58):
I'm going to start an RSPCA up.

Jess (38:01):
Watch me go.

Steve (38:02):
Watch me go.
So I got a couple of parrotsand one was ill, so I put this
parrot in.
I mean, sadly this didn't endvery well, so this person didn't
end very well, and so I put allthe parrots in.
That was lovely.
And then about two hours laterI came down and I was working in
my office and I got a big glasspanel so I could see in the
hospital and I looked and Ithought I'm really proud of them

(38:22):
units, and this is where youknow when your mind plays games.
Oh no.
And I'm working away and Ilooked across and I thought they
look lovely, them units, and Ilove how they're shining, and I
can't remember polishing themthat and I'm sure they was white
.
Why are they shining?
And then I really don't laughbecause it ended up disastrous

(38:48):
and I'm looking and thinking, oh, they were plastic coated, all
their mesh panels, and thecockatoo that's in there has
took every bit of plastic offand eaten it.
Oh no, so don't laugh becauseI'm sat there.
Oh, did he die?
Unfortunately, he died yes,from plastic.
Yes, and as I'm looking through,he'd just got this huge golf
ball thing.
He just kept putting them in.

Jess (39:12):
Why are parrots stupid?

Steve (39:13):
And that's what I'm saying when we're talking about
intelligence.
So it's not even edible, it'snothing.

Jess (39:17):
Why has he eaten it?

Steve (39:18):
But it's stripped, so you imagine a dog, that's actually
quite rare.

Jess (39:21):
Like a lot of our parrots do destroy a lot of things, but
they don't tend to eat whatthey're destroying, unless they
know it's edible, like with woodand stuff in the branches they
don't tend to eat it, I thinkwhat it is.

Steve (39:31):
I think when a parrot's ill so a lot of parrots, so
we're used to budgie people andpigeon people they always put
grit in the food.
Yes, because it's a mineralthat absorbs and it gives off
good minerals, uh.
So what?
When parrots were ill, theywould eat uh bits of grit right
from soil and things like that,and it all had the to boost up
their immunity to boost theirimmune and also help them, as it

(39:54):
makes their gizzard a lotfirmer, so it makes life a lot
easier.
Now what we did know in the welearned in the early days that
if you actually give them a bowlof grit, okay, a lot of them
would eat it all, and thenthey'd end up with something
called crop impaction.

Jess (40:08):
Yeah, where they can't get through their crop.
So it just literally got solid.

Steve (40:11):
Well, this is what that did, but it did it with plastic.
And we shot up to the vets,went up to Andrew Greenwood, who
was Andrew Greenwood is aspecial person on his own.
He's quite old now, but me andhim used to rub up against each
other.
He was brilliant, he was abrilliant, brilliant vet.
But we did have one or tworeally close, you know, like

(40:33):
opinionated catastrophes.
We both catastrophized once ortwice.
And so I rushed him up toAndrew and he said, like I know
what he's done, but I justcannot get it out.
And he said, unfortunatelythere is so much that's gone
into his system.
And this is where, when, whenwe're talking about parrots and
things like that, when peoplesay, like if a dog eats

(40:54):
something, you wait for a fewhours and it comes out the other
end, yeah, if a, if a childeats something you wait for, you
have to sit outside the toiletand wait for the chinkle on the
side of the toilet and say thering's fell out.
If a parrot eats something,it's different.
What happens with a parrot?
Parrots suffer from things likeheavy metal poisoning and
things like that, because whathappens?

(41:15):
It's got a couple of stomachs,so you've got your normal crop.

Jess (41:17):
I'm going to bring up a picture on.

Steve (41:18):
Twitch, yeah.
So you've got your stomach,then you've got your crop, and
then you've got your crop, andthen you've got your
proventricular, which isbasically like your stomach.
Then you've got your gizzard,and that's where it breaks
everything down, and the gizzardis really oh, we've got a nice
picture coming up here.
I have.
So the bit in the middle there,the gizzard, is where the
actual everything ends up thereand it's a huge muscle that is

(41:42):
just constantly wearing it down.
Yes, so if you put a pound coinin there, it's going to….

Jess (41:47):
Oh no, I closed it.
That's my bad.

Steve (41:51):
If you put a pound coin in there, it's going to just try
its hardest to break it down tozero, and so it literally keeps
trying to….

Jess (41:59):
I think of it as like a cement mixer that also grinds.

Steve (42:05):
Yeah, that's what I think of it.
It and it comes out as liquid.
It comes out as liquid andurethra as urethra and fecal
matter.
So, but basically so, if youactually put a uh, so what?
When people used to give themchicken bones, which is a
brilliant thing, yeah, that'sright.
So that becomes part of the uhdown facility that they actually

(42:25):
have inside.
So literally what it will do is, if you put some eggshell in
there, that helps break down thenormal food because it becomes
aggregate in there, but also youget the benefit that, as it
breaks down the actual eggshell,you get the calcium out of it.

Jess (42:41):
Right.

Steve (42:41):
So what happens with grit ?
When they put minute bits ofgritting and it's working as
like an aggregate and it'srubbing against the food and
breaking it all down.
Yeah, it's also breaking itselfdown, so you're getting the
minerals out of it, which isbrilliant right if it's a
plastic cage, that doesn'thappen no, it doesn't so there
you can see that, you can seethe crop, you can see the crop

(43:02):
there, and then the gizzard uh,and it's down, it's down there,
and that's where it all ends up,and once it breaks down there,
then it goes through thedigestive system down and then
into here that's right, and thenthis is the.

Jess (43:13):
That's the digestive system.

Steve (43:15):
Yeah so anything you put in there.
So obviously once giving them abit of grit is no problem in
the food.
But a lot of vets will say, oh,give them a bowl of grit, but
when they feel ill?
They'll just instantly go intoit, and then you've got another
problem.
So, going on to this, so it'sobviously I'm so remember where
we are.
We're underground, we're in thebottom basement he's eating a

(43:35):
lot of he's eating the cage andhe died.
Yeah, uh, the poor little chap,uh, and, but it won't do so.
They all literally had to takethem all outside, heat them all
up, jet blast all the plasticoff them Still ended up being
okay.
But that's my early days ofexpensive living, of realising
that it cost a poor parent'slife, because I didn't think for
one second.

Jess (43:54):
Yeah, that he'd stripped the plastic off.

Steve (43:56):
Because they'd had it for 10 years and it had never
happened, and all of a sudden ithad done it.
So you learn these lessons very, very quickly, however, the
very, very quickly.
However, the next lesson Ididn't learn as quickly, so so I
guess a telephone call insheffield again, because I used
to travel all over the place soto get one in sheffield was
lovely yeah but I got a and Idon't I definitely can't
remember this chap's name areally nice chap and he said he

(44:18):
lived in a place called darnelin sheffield.
It's if you come down to darnel,uh, pull up underneath the
bridge and I'll come out to meetyou.
And I thought that's a bitunusual way into just come to my
drive and knock on the door.
Yeah, didn't think anything,and he wanted me to go and look
at his african gray.
So drives down into darnwelland uh gets to this place, onto
this bridge, and I thought allright.
So I phoned him, I said I'munder the bridge and he said,

(44:41):
all right, there's a big wall atthe side, right, and this
little door opened on this walland he says right, you can park
there.
You're okay, come through here.
And as I came through, Ithought this is a bit weird.

Jess (44:51):
Well in the bridge.

Steve (44:51):
Yeah, at the side of the bridge, yeah, so the bridge was
one way and as it went likegoing into some little secret
thing and shiny cars, and it wasa funeral director's, oh yeah.
So I were like, oh, I've neverbeen to one of these before for
this, for this purpose.
So I goes through and he says,right, come through.

(45:12):
And instantly I'm thinking Iwonder if he's going to take me
through the dead bodies.
And they don't.

Speaker 3 (45:17):
But he may have.
Yeah, it could be not allowedto I wouldn't but this chat.

Steve (45:21):
So I got, I had a drink with him and he had a problem
with his afric, but we sortedthat out and we got everything
sorted out.
And this is still pre-sanctuarythis is way pre-sanctuary and
I'm talking away to him and hewas literally.
He started telling me about hisjob and I said like because I
was under the belief that if youwanted to open a funeral
diaries, it had to be somethingpassed down in the family.

(45:42):
Yeah, it kind of seems like oneof those professions, yeah, and
I thought that's how it were,and he was telling me about the
laws and everything and he saidwell, I'm splitting too.
He says what I do is I do this,he says, but my other job is,
he says, you know, when you seea special thing with the police
uh, like a scene of crime, andthey've got the tent and they
have to exhume bodies, it's well, I'm the exhumer, I'm the one
that has to dig the bodies upand check them for them.

(46:04):
Oh my God.
Well, I was fascinated.
I was proper fascinated Becausewe haven't talked about it on
here in case people thought itwas weird, but I once went to be
a pathologist assistant.

Jess (46:14):
You did yes.
Why didn't we talk about that?

Steve (46:17):
My colour blindness got me, and I couldn't do that
either.

Jess (46:19):
When did you do that?

Steve (46:20):
I was about 19, 20.
I wanted to be a.
I used to read, but Dawn'smother was so frightened she
worked because she used to cometo my house and I'd finish work
and I'd be sat reading theBernard Spilsby pathology books
how to get shut of a body andshe'd say he worries me.

(46:42):
She'd say whenever he's reading, you'll make sure you phone me
every weekend because I want tomake sure that it doesn't turn
up.
So she went on holiday and Iused to be fascinated.

Jess (46:53):
That's good I absolutely loved it.

Steve (46:55):
I used to love the pathology side of things,
especially criminal pathologyand forensics, so when he
started telling me about this,it was like oh, this is amazing,
my long lost obsession.
So he starts talking to him andhe was talking about some of the
bodies he's exhumed and when hewas just down to bone, I said
so when they're down to bone,what can you actually see?
He said not a lot really.
So they get very grainy andvery dirty.

(47:17):
He says we use a mild acid, anybits of tissue that the
forensics have to take off touse a mild acid of it.
So I said if I wanted askeleton of a parrot, how would
I go about that?
What could I do?

Jess (47:30):
He says well, Holy moly, I've been attacked by a cat.

Steve (47:34):
He says well, you can.
Actually, what are you doing?
You can use a very, very mildacid.
Yes, he says, but unfortunatelyone of the biggest problems is
parrot bones, he says.
From what I can gather he says,because I've done a lot of
study on my parrot is they'revery thin and very hollow, which
is what they are, becausethey're obviously flying
creatures.
He says so the acids….

Jess (47:55):
Yeah, it wouldn't do them well if their bones were also
heavy.
It wouldn't help them fly,would it?
No, that's right.

Steve (48:09):
And he says like way to do it is use the old-fashioned
way.
And I said what's that?
He says just go and buy a pintof maggots, put them in a box.
If you have a dead animal, adead bird, just put them in a
box, leave them for a couple ofweeks and then let them do the
job he says and try it.
He says the hard part is whenthey're in this box.
Make sure there's air for themto breathe, leave them for a
couple of weeks, but then thehard part is you'll be amazed
how many bones there are, right?
So having a stuffed animal isone thing, which is what you see
, but having one that's askeleton, yeah, is a nightmare,

(48:31):
because you literally have toknow where every bone goes.
Yes, however, this got mylittle cogs ticking.

Jess (48:37):
I thought right, the next time a parrot dies, I'm because
unfortunately, we are not gods,and parrots do, in fact, pass
away.

Steve (48:47):
Yeah, sadly they do die.
They do.
They're not immune.
And unfortunately I had anothercockatoo that died and he did
die.
And as soon as he died Ithought, hmm, I wonder, yeah.
So I got a container and I laidhim I I had to pluck him.
So I plucked him that's a lot.

Jess (49:07):
That's a lot.

Steve (49:08):
That was an experience, I'm sure not a nice experience,
but it's very quickly, becauseI'm fascinated, like I've been,
with vets when they've donepost-mortems things, yeah, and
when you're talking about deathand when you're talking about
things like that, you veryquickly have to disassociate
yourself.

Jess (49:20):
You do, yeah, I mean, you have to learn um, we've had the
largest collection of tigers inthe whole of the uk and
obviously quite a few of ourshave died from kidney disease
and we've had to do thepathology right there.
And then, because obviously youcan't transport a tiger, no to
to a facility.
Uh, it becomes very logisticallydifficult and it's amazing that
initially, if when they'reprone to sleep yeah, everyone's

(49:42):
crying everyone's cryingeveryone's really upset, um, and
then, as soon as they're likeokay, we need to do the, the
next bit.
Now everyone switches off andit's like okay, what do you need
?

Steve (49:52):
and we are very quick turnaround we are very, very
fortunate that we have our thevets.
That's done.
Our z and b is he's amazingMBis brilliant and he's so
sympathetic, he's so personalwith them, yeah, and he's so
very careful in everything hedoes.
But then he'll explaineverything to us.
So when he takes a kidney outand we have to because obviously

(50:12):
we took on a.

Jess (50:13):
Yeah, he doesn't mind me asking a thousand questions and
we take.

Steve (50:17):
We had a sadly.
We had a family of diseasedtigers that we knew ultimately
they were all going to die ofthe same thing, so we had
something to compare with.
Yes, and it was so.
When you're talking about,unfortunately, with livestock
comes death, yeah, and I mean,we are going to be talking in
the future about things that domake you cry and sad things,
because you do becomeemotionally involved with them.

Jess (50:37):
But when it's, I hate to think of the day that we start
talking about Dara.
I'm not sure I'm ready, I don'tthink Dara and Jackson.

Steve (50:42):
I'm not sure.

Jess (50:44):
I'm not sure you're ready for Jackson because you still
want to talk about him now.

Steve (50:48):
You will get that story, but I don't know how, we might
not have the cameras on andyou'll have to just listen.
So we've got this poor parrotthat died and I phoned him up
and told him and he says right,we need to take all the feathers
off, lay it in a position where, hopefully because what they'll
do they'll eat all thecartilage and everything, so
obviously they'll eat thecartilage.

Jess (51:10):
Sorry I was trying to get my words out then, but they
won't eat the keratin of thefeathers.

Steve (51:14):
No, no, no.
They won't eat the feathers oranything like that.
They won't touch that at all.

Jess (51:22):
They touch that at all.
They're mainly going for thesoft fleshy meats and things
like that so could you?
This is this is going to be abit grim actually.
No conversation, sorry if youare eating um.
So if you had left the featherson, would they have eaten
around the feathers?
Yes would that not have beeneasier?

Steve (51:35):
it's been messier, because everything has been
hidden underneath it, so I wantto know what was there oh, let's
tell you the truth like interms of like bone structure it
would have been harder to puteverything where it needed to be
yeah, because obviously yourskin is wrapped around
everything your feathers are,then your feather buds come
through that, so it'd become a.
In all honesty, I just did ashe said really it's so true and
so I set it up, got it all there, lovely big box.

(51:58):
Got it all set up, got a pintof maggots, put it in there,
left it Just get a casual pintof maggots from the local
fishing shop.
That's all I did, yeah, and thenleft it, and then left it.

Jess (52:09):
For how long?

Steve (52:11):
I forgot about it Wait.

Jess (52:13):
how long did he tell you to leave it for?

Steve (52:14):
He just says keep checking it, right?
Because he says obviously Idon't know how quickly he ate
through all the meat andeverything.
He just kept checking it.
So for the first few days I wasnosy and checking it, but then
you get a bit fed up, don't you?
Because you've seen the samething.
So then I forgot about it.
Now where, For how long?
You'll see in a minute whenthis room was, that I'd done it
in bang.
Above there was my lounge,right and Right.

(52:42):
Where did you put this box?
In the basement?
Yeah, just on the floor.
No, I'd got it all kitted outwith shelves and things like
that, so it was on the shelvesin the basement, right, because
that's where I used to do all mywork as well.
So I'd do lots of work there.

Jess (52:50):
And you didn't smell it.

Steve (52:51):
No, no, there's no smell.
Oh no smell at all.
No, that's.
I'm actually sat watching TVone evening about half past four
, five o'clock, finished workwhen Probably 1996, 97.

Jess (53:08):
Summer, winter I need details.

Steve (53:10):
It was summertime, it was lovely, the windows were open.
Okay, sat there, a little fly,just a fly.
Okay, didn't think anythingabout it.
Okay, that't think anythingabout it.
Okay, that's that gone.
Still didn't think anythingabout it, honestly.
And I'm watching TV and then Idon't know if it was Laura or

(53:31):
Dawn said seems to be a lot ofbloody flies here, don't they?
You know, the instant they saidthat, I thought oh yes, they're
mine.
There's 5,000 maggots downthere.
I wonder how long they took5,000?
Oh there was masses, because youknow what I'm like.
You don't want to get a handful, you want to go back to being a

(53:54):
gallon.
Oh my God.

Jess (53:58):
So I thought I'd best go and check.
You didn't open the lid did you?

Steve (53:59):
I didn't have to.
I opened the door, oh, and Icouldn't.
I thought the light hadn'tworked, and then I realised that
they were flies, and I meanthousands and thousands of flies
just flying around in this roomand I thought, ooh, what am I
going to do here?
How do I tell Dawn that we'vegot a?

Jess (54:20):
When was the last time you went in the office?

Steve (54:22):
Well, but how do I tell Dawn that we've got a?
When was the last time you wentin the office?
Well, they only take about fourdays to actually hatch and sort
out, so it doesn't have to bevery.
I didn't know this.
Flies don't last very long, butthey seem to last a lot longer
if you've got them in a supplyof food.
So I had to go.
We lived very close toMorrison's, which were just down
the road, so me being me, I wasso good at this I went back up,
never mentioned them, didn'tsay a word, Sat watching TV for

(54:44):
about 10 or 15 minutes and Isaid to the kids anybody fancy a
bit of chocolate or an icecream or anything like that?
Oh, yeah, Dad.
Yeah, that'd be brilliant.
Come on, then we'll go down.
Goes down to get some.
Dad, why are you buying like acase of fly spray?
Summer's coming love.
Well, summer's coming love, andthey always sell out, so they

(55:07):
thought all right, okay, thenhe's never thought anything,
I'll have believed anything,that's okay.
So I had to then wait for dawnto go into the bath, right.
And then I went downstairs andI thought, as much as I'm gonna
hate this, I've just got to divein, put something over my mouth
.
I'm assuming there were noparrots at that time no, there
were no parrots down there andlet's just spray like mad.
So I sprayed like mad for agood as long as you could get

(55:30):
through some fly spray until Ididn't know what we're going to
go first, the flies or me,because we were all spinning on
the floor.
We were all like, we were allin such a state until eventually
they were all over the floorjust moving about and it was
like oh, so I had to leave it.
Then I didn't touch anythingelse then, because I think this
is why my lungs are shot now.
And then I probably left itovernight.

(55:51):
And then the following day, whenDawn went to work, I should
have gone to work, but I said Iwas going a bit late today and I
went downstairs to clean it upoh, you've never seen anything
like it.
I and I went down to clean itup oh, you've never seen
anything like it.
I wouldn't like to say, butthey must have been.
I'm not exaggerating if I say5,000 flies and there was all

(56:12):
that was left is a pile of bonesthere was no sign of a skeleton
, though I didn't even know whatto do with them.
So I contacted him and told himand I think he didn't stop
laughing for a while.
He said I've got to do funerals.
He said now I'm going to bethinking about you when you're
armed with your two-candlesspray.
And I took him down to him andhe had a look with his acid and
he said no, they're just toothin and they were just burning

(56:35):
through.
So from there I thought Notworth it.
And you know where I got theidea from is when I think it was
, uh, in Andrew Greenwood'splace.
He had the university did himone and they did him one, but
they put the wrong head on ithow do you do?
that I don't know, I don't, Idon't know.
I think they've got all thebones and everything, but I

(56:56):
don't think so.
I think they just thought thismust be an African grey, because
I used to sit in his waiting inhis reception and I used to
like look at this skeleton andthink it is lovely that but
there's something strange aboutit.
But I couldn't argue because Idon't know if that's what they
look like underneath.
So when I went in in those daysthey used to sex birds.
Yes.
And it was a horrible proceduresexing birds in those days, oh

(57:18):
really, oh it was.

Jess (57:19):
If you wasn't used to it, it was horrendous right now it
is a feather yes take a featherfrom their chest, yep, or a
couple of and they just do a DNAsample.

Steve (57:30):
And they just do a DNA sample off of the feather, so
it's nothing like today it'snothing, but in those days they
used to have to use.
They used to use a there'll bea name for it.
So basically what they used todo, they used to puncture their
stomach with this like steelpipe that had a camera on it and
he would look in and he'd lookfor gonads and he'd look for

(57:52):
things like that that's horrificthat's what they used to do in
them days now.
Harcourt Brown.
When he used to do it, he usedto put a slight bit of sedation
round and then he'd put astitching afterwards.
Same as he used to put a slightbit of sedation around, yeah,
and then he'd put a stitch inafterwards.
Same as he used to do that withmicrochips.
Yes, he used to put a stitch inafterwards, but a lot of vets
didn't.
No.
I mean some of the vets, andthis is where it was horrific.
Some of the vets in the when heused to go to parrot shows I

(58:23):
wasn't, I think I people, but Iused to say my piece and I used
to go to these parrot shows forno other reason than to see what
people were doing.
I'd never condoned them becauseit was like a cattle market.
It wasn't very good.
There was hundreds and hundredsof parrots and a lot of the
parrots were drugged.
There was hundreds and hundredsof parrots and a lot of parrots
were drugged.
Uh, they used to sedate theparrot.

(58:45):
So there used to be aparticular parrot in those days
called a red-bellied macaw.
Uh, you don't, you very rarelysee them now.
Fabulous, absolutely fabulouslittle bird, but renowned for,
uh, dying of heart attack if youslam the door too hard.
They were so nervous andstressful and all they used to
do is scream if they saw humans,because they were all imported

(59:06):
well before 2006.
And they used to hang upsidedown on the cages.
And I once went to one of theseshows and there used to be a
big display of people in downsouth and they'd brought a big
display up and I saw all thesered-bellied macaws all sat on
the perches.
Never seen one sat on a perchbefore.
And they're all sat on perches.
And I like looking and thinking, wow, they're nice.

(59:27):
And I was like looking atsomeone, I'm looking, thinking
there's something strange aboutthese birds, and the guy who's
uh got them, he was talking tome.
He was quite interested.
I was asking where he'd gonefrom everything and I became I
must have had a good half anhour, three quarters an of an
hour, with him.
And then he went round the backto make a drink at his stall
and as they were doing it he'dgot a little bottle of Valium
that he was putting in the waterand he'd got them all sedated

(59:50):
with drugs.
The instant the Valium came outthey obviously turned back into
that.
Oh my God.
Then I realised how horrendousthe world was in the animal
world for anything to do with…yeah, world was in the animal
world for anything to do with.

Jess (01:00:01):
Yeah, because that's just to make money.
100, that was just so that hecould sell them all of them.

Steve (01:00:05):
I mean there's another one and there's a little story?

Jess (01:00:07):
who bought them?
Who then got home with thewildest power, who couldn't
handle the stress?

Steve (01:00:14):
ridiculous yeah, this is the last story of today, right
gosh, I know we're talking aboutthe same thing and it what it
is to show you how people'sopinions of certain things.
And I've just thought of thisbecause it was like amazing how
it was so in these parrot shows.
I was not in awe of thesepeople.
I used to love the idea thatyou'd got all these people with

(01:00:35):
parrots so I could learn moreand more about them.
Yeah, and I got a good group ofpeople that used to go around
with me.
We'd start at Parrot Line andwe were doing all the advisory
things and everything and peoplein the parrot world, like I
said, they either loved me orhated me.
Nobody liked me.
No, you either love Steve he'sbrilliant or I want him dead.
Bill and Marmite yeah, and I'dbe walking around and you could
hear people either whisperingyeah, that was him wanted to

(01:00:58):
make their way towards me andthere used to be inside the
parrot shores, inside Stafford,there used to be a huge aviary
and you used to have thesefabulous.
You used to take dozens anddozens of baby parrots flying
about.
Macaws, all macaws.
And it was quite a stunningenclosure exhibit.
You'd spend a lot of timelooking there and never thought

(01:01:19):
of anything other than that'swho they are and that's what
they do.
Uh, and then many, many yearslater, here I, out of out of the
, literally out of the blue, Ihad a chap contact me and said I
wonder if you could help me.
Uh, I'm trying to relocate abig group of parrots.
And I said yes, of course I can.
And he came to see me with hismother, this young chap who

(01:01:43):
happened to be an amazing youngchap.
He was only very young and hisstory was that while he was
young when he was about 17, 18,he was going to university.
He had a macaw and his mom saidyou'll have to take macaw with
you.
And he said I can't take it tothe university because he won't
have it.
And so he said I can't take itto the university because he

(01:02:05):
won't have it.
And so he said that he wouldhave to.
She says well, why don't we goand see the breeder where we got
it from and ask him if he willkeep it until you come back out
of uni?
And he said yep, that's a goodidea, I'm assuming she didn't
want to take care of it.
She couldn't look after it.
The parrot was very him, and sohe says, yep, no problem at all
.
And so that's what he did.
And then he went to uni,fortunately and unfortunate

(01:02:25):
unfortunate for the parrot, butfortunate for him.
He was a bit of a genius, ohright, and he was unbelievably
clever, oh wow.
And he ended up being invited,or I don't know if he got
invited or if he just went, buthe ended up going to Australia
for a short while, yeah, but hethen invented something that

(01:02:45):
became worldwide renowned.
For people with money, oh right,and it made him a very, very,
very wealthy, and when I saywealthy I mean proper, proper
wealthy.
So I'm sat talking to him, uh,and there was something strange
about him so wait, where did youmeet him?
He just phoned me all rightjust for me.
I said, well, uh, and he justsaid he just wanted help with
these parrots.
And I was just talking to him.
And when you talk to him Ithought what a special guy he is

(01:03:07):
.
I don't know why.
Yeah.
But what a special guy he is.
And he sat with his mom and hismom were lovely, absolutely
lovely, and I said to him I saidyou're going to have excuse me,
but I'm always nosy with thesekind of things.
What do you actually do?
Yeah so his wife, his mom saidoh, I'm glad you asked that she
was so proud oh bless her so hesaid, uh, uh, he started telling

(01:03:32):
me, but his mom was determinedto tell me what it was.
So basically, he invented himand his uh mate in australia.
They invented an app and thisapp I believe it converted money
for you.
So it was like if you got$1,000 and you needed to move it
into shares, it would have toconvert the money.
So he did it and all he did wastake a minute percentage from

(01:03:53):
every single thing.
So if you was doing £100, he'dprobably charge you a penny.
Yeah, so for you it was nothing, so you'd just use it.
But millions and millions ofpeople used him for millions of
transactions and very, veryquickly it became unbelievably
wealthy, to the point where Ithink I'm sure you can google
him, but I'm sure he becamesomething like the young

(01:04:14):
businessman of australia and hewon the entire thing.
He was so good, so it wasbrilliant because he was so nice
and he was worth an absolutefortune.
And so he starts telling meabout this parrot.
I said that's amazing, he says,and they came from this big
place.
And he mentioned this name andI thought, all right, that
that's that really nice place.
And he said you've never seenanything as barbaric in your

(01:04:36):
life behind the scenes washorrendous.
Yeah, oh, where the parrotswere and he said I just need to
get them out of there.
I've got to find a place.
So is that where his parrot was,that's where his parrot was and
he's been there all them yearsand he'd come back and he'd
wanted to get it back.
Yeah, he made contact sayingI'm going to see how such and
such is.
Yeah, and unfortunately, wasthe chap's fault Well, it is his

(01:05:00):
fault in the fact that he wasgreedy and he wasn't part with
them.
Yeah, but I think he'd done thesame thing as what some of
these small rescuers had doneand wouldn't stop and got so big
, yeah, got too big, andeverything being locked in this
barn wasn't very nice or veryhealthy for the animals.
And he ended up doing somethingthat not a lot of people have
done.
He rewilded some green wingmacaws and got them, took back

(01:05:28):
to south america, which isthere's not many people done
that in the world at all.
The world parrot trust helpedhim right to get him over there
and then he built a, an amazingenclosure down in I think it was
in buckinghamshire or somewhere.
I think the queen mother washis, his neighbor.

Jess (01:05:37):
It wasn't um the guy who had all the parrots that
rewilded them.
It was him that rewilded them.
Yes, right.

Steve (01:05:43):
Yes, he actually took all the birds off the guy, yeah,
they literally took them all,yeah, and relocated them and
ended up taking some back hometo South America and the ones
that couldn't do that.
He built a fabulous aviary downsouth.
He's still got all his picturesfrom what he did and he
literally said that if nobodyelse can look after him properly

(01:06:05):
, then I'm going to look afterhim and he built this amazing
place for them.
I don't know, it was alwaysfascinating because I'm sure and
I might be wrong when I'msaying this, but I'm sure his
mum will still keep because shestill follows us quite a lot, so
I'm sure she'll let me knowthat she bought a big place,
bought a house Somewhere nearroyalty, and I don't think they

(01:06:25):
realised how loud these parrots.
So it'd be interesting if hegot a noise complaint From the
royal family or the king, andthat's the story about him and
that's literally so how did heneed your help?
Well, what he wanted to do,because we was the national
parrot sanctuary, he wanted toknow if he could bring them here
yes, uh but we just didn't havethe facilities we couldn't take

(01:06:47):
on, because I think there was200 macaws, yeah, and it was
like looking and saying I mean,well, that's why I designed the
place called macaw world, yeah,but unfortunately we couldn't
get it built in time becausethey needed to help it.
It was so determined no, I knowthere's been other things that
we've had to do, but he was sodetermined to help these birds
he was so he there's no waycould he wait for anything and

(01:07:09):
so much.
So he did it all himself, whichis brilliant, I mean, which
shows that his success inbusiness uh passed on to doing
other things, and that washelping the parrots.
So for me that was brilliant.
That's good.
And I I kept in touch with himright up until COVID, yeah, but
unfortunately COVID caused allsorts of hassles, didn't it, and
we all went different ways.
So if you do hear of this I'mnot going to mention your name,

(01:07:32):
but if you do hear of it, youknow who you are give me a bell
and we'll say hello again.
Other than that, I think we'vecome to the end of another one.

Jess (01:07:40):
We've not talked about anything we wanted to talk about
.

Steve (01:07:42):
Don't we say that every time now.

Jess (01:07:43):
Yeah, we do.

Steve (01:07:44):
I wanted to talk about Abigail.
Abigail's only a tiny littleparrot, but we'll talk about her
on the next time, okay?
And I think what we shouldprobably do on the next one is
shall we?
Oh, I didn't tell you this.
Oh, we've got going to talkabout.
You know, when we sat downtoday, we were so busy we said,
oh, we forgot what we were goingto say.
Yeah.
And then we babbled on aboutnothing for the last hour, and

(01:08:08):
obviously it's not nothing.

Jess (01:08:09):
No, you've still got more.

Steve (01:08:12):
Thank you very much everyone.
I hope you've enjoyed it.
It's been another episode withsomebody who keeps me in check,
which is Jess, which is verygood, because without her I'd
just be talking to myself in twoclaps and that'd be even
weirder.
But other than that, I'm goingto say thank you, Jess, and it
is goodbye from me.

Jess (01:08:31):
And a goodbye from me.

Steve (01:08:32):
And we'll see you in episode eight.
We will Take care.
Thank you so much for beinghere, no problem, see you all
later I wasn't thanking you oh.