Ep. 68: Lit It or Quit It: Blood Over Bright Haven

Join Kelsey and Amanda as they delve into ML Wong's 'Blood Over BrightHaven', exploring its heavy themes of colonialism, sexism, and systemic power structures. Prepare for a thought-provoking analysis of complex characters and a society built on hidden atrocities, with a nuanced take on how these topics resonate in today's world.

00:00 Content Warning and Introduction

00:39 Social Media and Community Engagement

04:00 Our Current Reads 

13:20 Summary of 'Blood Over Bright Haven'

21:31 Book Discussion

53:20 LITerally the Best or LITerally the Worst

50:59  Recap and Final Thoughts

Send us a text

Follow us on TikTok & Youtube @litvibesonlypodcast and on Instagram @litvibesonly_podcast. You can also email us at [e-mail] We'd love to hear from you!

See you on Mondays!

Episode Transcript

Amanda (2) (00:00):
In order to make choices that are best for you,

(00:03):
please note that this episodedoes contain brief mentions of
rape and suicide Welcome to LitVibes Only, where we lit the
shit outta books we love andhate.
I'm Kelsey, the unhinged,diehard, romantic and fantasy
reader.
And I'm Amanda, the insightful,thrill seeker and historical

(00:25):
fiction nerd.
Welcome to another LIT or ITepisode.
We're so happy you're here.
Yeah.
I'm really happy'cause it's myweek this week and I chose the
book and I'm so excited aboutthis book.
But before all of that if youhave not yet found us on
socials, you should absolutelygo and do that.
We are on Instagram at Lit VibesOnly underscore podcast.

(00:49):
We're also on TikTok and YouTubeat Lit Vibes only.
So make sure to take a moment atsome point today, at some point
during this episode, head overthere, like follow comments and
of some love.
Show us some love, show us howmuch you're enjoying the
podcast.
Share what's on your mind.
Give us book racks, all thethings.
And if you're somebody who isnot on socials, that's not your

(01:10):
jam, that is okay.
We also have an email address.
Mm-hmm.
So it's Lit Vibes [e-mail].
Shoot us a message, let us knowwhat's up.
Let us know what you wanna seeand hear on the podcast.
We love all the feedback, allthe suggestions.
So come say, Hey there.
And then if you haven't already,most importantly.
Please take a moment, rate andreview us either on Apple

(01:33):
Podcast or on Spotify.
If you're on Apple, you canleave a review for the full
podcast.
And if you're on Spotify, youcan leave a comment on any of
the episodes, perhaps this one,and share your thoughts on this
book.
Let us know if it's a lit orcredit for you.
But that really helps us.
We are, yes.
Do you wanna know?
In our second year, we do wannaknow.
Yeah, we are in our second year,but we are still very much a

(01:55):
Growing Great baby podcast, andare still building our
following, still getting theword out there.
And this massivelyoversaturated.
I don't know, market industry,that is the podcast world.
So come show us some love thatway.
It goes a long way and it trulytakes no time at all to do so.
thank you in advance for thattwo seconds.

(02:17):
And uh, I love, like the ASMRthat's happening on Kelsey's.
Go do it.
Subliminal messaging.
Give us five stars.
Anyhow.
We are fresh off ofThanksgiving.
Yeah.
So we're recording this on the27th, or no, sorry, the 28th.

(02:37):
28th of November.
Oh my gosh.
That flew by.
Flew by.
So we are, we live one moremonth left in this year.
Okay.
Let's not talk about that.
Okay.
I'm not ready, especially'causemy birthday's in January.
I'm like, I'm not ready to be ayear older.
Oh, yeah.
So let's not talk about thatquite yet.
Oh.
So society's birthday's inJanuary.

(02:57):
I know.
All the January birthday.
I think about that or not.
Let's not think about it.
Let's just, I do need to, I needto play it live in the present.
Let's live in the present and beso in tune and grateful for
where we are.
But I, yes, I'm, I am I'mgrateful that we still have,
including today three more daysof break.
So thank goodness.

(03:18):
Thank goodness.
Gonna make the most of, I'mgonna do some reading.
I'm so tired.
Oh, I know.
I didn't get out of bed.
Until, I mean, I was awake, butI didn't like physically get out
of bed until 8 45, which I knowfor some of you listeners,
you're probably like, oh, that'sso early.
That's not, that is super latefor me.
Yeah, dude.
We're like out of bed at likefive teachers.
Yeah.
On the weekdays it's, yeah.

(03:39):
Ridiculous.
I can't sleep in on theweekends.
Like I still, even if I'msleeping in, I'm getting up at
at least seven and that's likesleeping again.
My body's like, all right, let'sgo.
Hey, Amanda, stop it.

Kelsey (03:51):
Stop it.

Amanda (2) (03:52):
So congratulations for sleeping in until almost
nine.
Thank you so much.
Thank you.
I wasn't sleeping.
I was on my phone, but I wasstill bed in my bed.
There you go.
There you go.
And I have been Have you beenreading?
Did you get, I know it's stillcrazy with family and stuff on
the holidays, but Yeah.
I had family and stuff overyesterday, so No, and we watched
Stranger Things.
Oh, I'm starting that today.
I'm so excited.
I can't wait to talk to youabout it.

(04:13):
Okay.
Okay.
Did you just watch like thefirst.
Episode.
We watched the whole thing.
We started Wednesday.
We started Wednesday.
Oh, okay.
Okay.
But it's split up.
The next set isn't coming outuntil December 25th.
So wait, so how many episodesare out already?
I think there's four and thenthere's three more coming out in
December.
So we have to wait.

(04:33):
We were stingy and watched itall.
No, not stingy.
If you're stingy, that means youwould've been like, oh, we're
just gonna do one every week.
Does it though?
We like, yeah, stingy.
Stingy with the episodes and wewanted to gobble them up.
I don't know.
It makes sense to me.
I, that's greedy.
Oh yeah, you're right.
Didn't you like, took completelythe opposite, but I get it.

(04:54):
I get what you're saying.
I have to go back and watchtime.
I dunno, like the recaps onYouTube, because I'm not gonna
go back and watch all theseasons.
I don't have the time.
Yes.
So I need to like No, youshould, because I was so
confused.
Even with the recap that theyshow on Netflix.
Oh no, I'm gonna, I was like,why were they doing this?
Why were they doing?
Yeah.
No, you need to, I'm gonna do,there's this one guy who does a
really great job on YouTube andI'm just gonna watch the recaps

(05:16):
of each season.
Yeah.
So I'm like, squared awaybecause I have, you know, you
know me, memory of a goldfish.
I'm like, what happened?
Who are these people?
What town do they live in?
I had a hard time with thissummary because oh my God,
there's so much going on.
'cause there was a lot.
There was a lot.
This.
Yeah.
It's, the thing is, it's not asuper long book, but there's a
lot in there.
Mm-hmm.
It's pretty complicated, butwhat are you currently reading?

(05:40):
I'm excited to talk about itbecause I am currently reading a
TJ Clone book.
Yes.
Love.
Tell me more.
And I've read a good amount ofhis books now what?
Maybe five.
And this one is The BonesBeneath My Skin.
Did you ever read that one?
Oh no.
No.
I've only read three of hisbooks.
Okay.
Yeah.
Yeah, no, it's good so far.
Yeah.

(06:00):
The premise is it's this olderguy whose parents die.
Okay.
And they leave him a cabin and acar.
Okay.
And he goes out to the cabin andmeets some people that are not
supposed to be there.
And then the story, this soundslike the start of a horror
novel.

(06:21):
And I feel like TJ Coon does notwrite horror.
It's not really horror, but itmaybe seems a little creepy at
first.
It's unsettling.
It's not really.
Yeah.
Okay.
Okay.
That sounds great.
I'm a huge fan of TJ Clone.
I just finished reading ourbook, club book for next month.
For listeners you were in themonth of December for us, for
November, so this is gonna beour December read.

(06:42):
Yeah.
I mentioned it on a previousepisode, I believe.
But small things like these byClaire Keegan.
It's a super short little book.
It's like 125 pages Uhhuh.
So it breezed right through it.
And it was so good.
There is a movie that I'm gonnawatch that it based on it's
historical fiction said in the1980s and Ireland, and it's

(07:05):
about this man and his family atChristmas time.
But it talks about, they werecalled Magdalene or Magdalene
Laundries.
They were like these homes likemother and baby homes that were
in Ireland.
And they were originallyintended for like women of ill
repute, right?
Like prostitutes, unwed mothers,whatever.

(07:25):
And they would send them tothese.
These homes that were run by theCatholic church.
Oh.
And they have a really sortedhistory.
Women were abused emotionally,physically, kept under lock and
key.
A lot of the women and babiesdied very hush hush.
Mm-hmm.
And so it, it's connected tothat.
But I always pronounce his namewrong.

(07:47):
He, is it Killian Murphy?
Do you know who I'm talkingabout?
He was.
Mm-hmm.
You would know him if you sawhim.
I'm saying his name wrong, I'msure.
Because I'm sure it has adifferent pronunciation, but
he's in a bunch of stuff.
He's the main character in itand it's like a really well
awarded movie, blah, blah blah.
Anyhow, that's what I justfinished.

Amanda (08:03):
Um,

Amanda (2) (08:04):
Got it.
And like I said, it takes placeduring Christmas, so it's a good
Christmas read'cause it doeshave a heartwarming ending

Amanda (08:10):
sort of.

Amanda (2) (08:10):
okay.
I was like, that doesn't soundlike a Christmas read that maybe
in the time of Christmas, butit's not cozy.
I will say he makes choices thatultimately make you feel good.
But yeah, there's a lot of stuffgoing on that's rough.
But I'm just about to start.
I'm gonna hold it up'cause Ihave it here.

(08:31):
It's play nice, but I only holdit up over here.
Play Nice by Rachel Harrison.
I picked this up during spookyseason and I haven't read it
yet.
It is a horror novel, but it'slike a, what is the word?
Like a family drama, like adomestic horror.
I think like it's more about afamily and their interactions
with each other.
Uhhuh, I've never read herbefore.

(08:51):
I think she mostly writes likefeminist horror.
So I am super curious to diveinto this.
I've heard a lot about it.
It's pretty popular.
Okay.
Okay.
So keep you posted.
I do wanna keep reading horrorand exploring the genre a bit
more, mm-hmm.
I'll let you guys know.

Amanda (09:06):
Um,

Amanda (2) (09:07):
So is so into horror and if it's not scary enough,
he's bored.
I will say between like horrormovies and horror books, horror
novels mm-hmm.
I definitely can do horrornovels way better.
Like I can handle them waybetter.
Horror movies.
Yeah.
There are sometimes there are alot for me.

(09:27):
Yeah.
I cannot, I wonder if it wouldfeel different to me as a horror
novel.
Mm-hmm.
Because I hate horror filmscannot stand them.
Yeah.
I just, I don't like jumpscares.
I don't like gore or

Amanda (09:39):
like,

Amanda (2) (09:39):
Sasha Films can't do them.
If it's too weirdlysupernatural, I'm like, Nope.
Absolutely not.
Why?
Why?
Because I think we've talkedabout this in a previous
episode.
I grew up in a really religioushome where we believed in
supernatural forces.
And so I think there's stillpart of me that's

Amanda (09:56):
like,

Amanda (2) (09:57):
oh, these are real.
And Yeah.
Yeah.
And you've talked about how youlike believe in ghosts and
things like that, and Yes.
So I think it just, it's I don'tknow.
I don't wanna mess with this toomuch.
I know.
That's how I feel.
Yeah.
Oh, so anyhow, so funny.
Anyhow, let's get to it, I'msuper excited because I've been
waiting so long.
Yes.
For Kelsey to finish this book.
We even had to postpone thisepisode recording session so she

(10:20):
could finish.
So I'm done to hear what shethinks and to talk about this
book because I'm obsessed.

Amanda (10:26):
So.

Amanda (2) (10:28):
Kelsey

Amanda (10:28):
well,

Amanda (2) (10:29):
first of all, I have to tell you why I had you read
it.
So the book is Yes, blood OverBrightHaven, I'm getting ahead
of myself, blood OverBrightHaven by Emma Wong.
I read this book several monthsago because I saw it recommended
in several places.

Kelsey (10:42):
One of the people

Amanda (10:42):
who recommended it was book Huddle, and I often read
her book recommendations.
Yes.
So I was intrigued, especiallyas someone who does not read
fantasy, hardly ever uhhuh.
So one of the reasons Irecommended it is because this
is quite a popular fantasy book.

Kelsey (10:58):
Mm-hmm.

Amanda (10:59):
Pretty well loved, pretty well recommended, often
recommended and I thought thatit did a really great job of
touching on so many real worldissues in a way that.
I don't know, put them in a newlight so that we could process
them a bit better.
I think sometimes it's hard forus to look at our own society,

(11:19):
our own country, and see what'swrong, and sometimes we need a
little bit of distance.
Mm-hmm.
And so because this is set in afantasy world that looks very
different from ours, it's easierfor us to see the racism,
sexism, xenophobia,colonization, that's happening
and be like, oh my God, this isawful.
The genocide versus sometimeswhen we're looking at our own
country culture society.
Okay.
So I liked it for that and Iliked the fact that the main

(11:43):
character si is not particularlylikable.
Like she's not a quote unquotegood person.
She, and she talks about thatoften in the novel, which we'll
get into.
And you know me like I lovemessy, flawed human characters,
and I like that she wasn't thisbright, shiny.
Heroin by any means.
Mm-hmm.
And sometimes her motivationsaren't always great.

(12:05):
And yeah, those were my reasonsand I'm so curious to hear what
Kelsey thinks.
So when did you read this?
Was it pretty recent?
It was probably it was over thesummer.
Okay.
Maybe in August.
I think so like maybe threemonths ago.
So not super long ago.
So it's still pretty fresh in mymind.
I thought so, yeah.
Mm-hmm.

(12:25):
Yeah, and it's definitely one ofmy, for sure top reads of the
year, like hands down.
Oh my God, I'm so like, I'm sonervous.
I think I said in a previousepisode that if she doesn't like
this book, I'm gonna bedevastated.
So here we go.
Kelsey, was this book a lit itor quit it for you?
It's no pressure.
So much pressure.

(12:47):
No, I don't mind the pressure.
It's fine.
Fine.
Overall this was a lit it forme.
Yay.
Okay.
I thought it was gonna be, Idunno how it couldn't be, I have
some thing.
Yeah.
I could see some criticismspotentially, especially.
Mm-hmm.
You read a lot of romantic, butnot necessarily like straight
fantasy.

(13:07):
Yeah.
And so I was like, oh, thismight be too.
I don't know.
I don't know.
I have some criticisms, but Idon't think it's what you are
thinking right now.
Okay, perfect.
Oh, then let's jump into thesummary.
'cause it, it was the long book,but it is, there's a lot
happened.
The dense book.

(13:27):
It's a dense book.
Yeah, for sure.
So Godspeed And also I do notexplain.
The magic system.
Oh don't do it.
I'm just that is intense andYep., I still don't fully
understand it.
Same.
But there are parts obviouslylike I can understand that I do
mention.
So anyway, I was writing thislast night, so I hope I do
justice.

(13:48):
We will see because I reallydon't like just winging it.
Yeah.
Because I, I will forget things.
Sure.
Amanda's really great aboutthat, but I just, it doesn't
work for my brain.
That's it.
She eat her own.
Alright, here we go.
Let's see how I do.
Alright.
The book opens with an entireCaldon tribe crossing a

(14:09):
dangerous lake.
In order to reach the city ofTeran on their way, people begin
to die from what's called theblight.
People are vanishing by somesort of strange monster that
makes their bodies burn anddisappear.
In this catastrophe, there'sonly two survivors, a man and
his niece.
That's like the opening chapter.

(14:30):
Mm-hmm.
And then you switch perspectivesand you move into the FMCs
perspective.
Sion.
So then the book opens withAna's perspective.
She is a 20 some orphaned womanwho is intelligent and magically
talented.
In the magic world, Ana faces alot of misogyny where men don't

(14:50):
believe women should bepracticing magic.
Every 10 years a woman isallowed to apply for position as
a high ma.
And ana is the one woman able toapply and has a mentor that
strongly believes in her archmaid, Brigham all her life.
She's heard that women are notsuited to be high maid, but she
proves her ability.

(15:11):
During her exam, she's able tofloat a very large item.
And I can't remember.
It was like a sphere.
I think it's a cauldron heavy.
Thank you cauldron.
Mm-hmm.
And, she's able to flow thecauldron in the air that wins
over the judges, and she thenbecomes high MJ Fran, which is

(15:32):
her last name, and she feelsaccomplished.
Yet she's the only high magewoman and is not welcomed into
the group.
Like every other man.
On her first day, she hasassigned a Quinn janitor, who is
one of the tribes outside tribesfrom beyond Teran.
And his name is Tomil, and he'sgoing to be her assistant rather

(15:55):
than a university studiedassistant.
So she gets a janitor instead ofa typical assistant.
The other high majors are tryingto sabotage her with this
decision, but Cyana takes it instride.
Tomil and Cyana go out after thefirst day and grab a couple
drinks.
This is the beginning of theirfriendship and partnership in
Ana's lab.

(16:16):
Although she faces mistreatmentand discrimination, Ana deeply
believes she's making progressfor all women and is extremely
passionate about her work andthe possibilities in the use of
magic.
And through Tomil and Ana'spartnership, Ana slowly starts
to see the government corruptionand unjust treatment of the

(16:36):
Quinn that she has ignorantlybought into and benefited from
up until now.
And she realizes how muchmistreatment the Quinn face, and
this only happens because of herpartnership with Tomil.
In her first few months as mage,each new member needs to present
a project to understand themagic system a bit.

(16:59):
The magic users must siphontheir magic from this map of
coordinates known as the otherwe realm.
There are forbidden coordinatesthroughout this map, but many
coordinates that are availableto use.
The arch majors are attemptingto expand the magical shield
around the city of Teran.
That's their current goalbecause that magical shield has

(17:22):
been deteriorating over theyears.
And for Ion's project, shediscovers how to create what's
called mirrors where one can seethe other realm while they're
siphoning their magic.
And the goal is to be able tosee the source and determine
where the largest source is tosiphon from.
And when Cyana successfullycreates the mirror, she sees a

(17:44):
beach and Tomil recognizes thesame magic that killed his
entire tribe.
Ana realizes that she murdered awoman on the beach through her
mirror.
And Tamil has a breakdown andAna cannot believe what she just
saw.
Moving forward.
Cyana chooses to believeinitially that the arch MAs and

(18:05):
other high MAs don't know wherethe magic is being siphoned
from.
But Tomil knows differently.
It takes Ionis some time torealize that many of the magic
users already know and are okaywith murdering in order to use
magic.
Those in power end up justifyingthe murder for the greater good.
And this even includes hermentor, arch Maid Brigham, who

(18:27):
she thought was a very standupguy.
Um, Ana comes up with a planthat she thinks will wake up the
citizens of Teran, and shereveals how magic a siphon to
the city.
After that, Ana has takenprisoner and her desire to share
the truth starts a rebellion bythe Quinn and the Tyrannous

(18:49):
people are very distraught.
Ana feels strongly she did whatwas right and she is then held
for trial and stands her ground.
She could have saved her life bysharing remorse for her actions,
but she decides to double downand stand behind what she did.
The court sentences her todeath, and she takes a vial of

(19:10):
liquid, and as she does, shehears her final spell being put
into place by Tummel, and itdestroys the building she's in
and kills all the arch majorsinside.
And Cyana dies along with them.
This means that the city'sleadership is dead.
And in the end, Tomil and hisniece survive and escape toran,

(19:31):
and they do this alongside otherQuinn.
As of right now, the magicsystem is broken and not
functioning, so there is no riskof blight.
That's pretty much the end.
Yeah.
Yeah.
That was actually great.
I'll just clarify a couple ofthings, but that was a really
concise summary.
One thing that's important toknow is that.

(19:52):
Tarnish magic actually is takenfrom Quinn Magic.
And you realize that, so yourealize that the founders of
Teran, they essentially took themagic from the Quinn people and
ended up manipulating it fortheir own benefit and to
basically oppress and ultimatelykill these other tribes out in

(20:15):
the world.
And so when Kelsey was talkingabout siphoning and coordinates
in other realm, which is likereally confusing, it's literally
just other parts of this world.
And magic is just pulling lifefor, from other people, plants,
animals in different parts ofthe world.
Mm-hmm.
That's what it is.
And I think a thing that'sreally important to note is that
originally when people arecasting these spells and like

(20:38):
using their little magicmachines to pull magic from the
other realm, everything isblurry.
So they cannot see what they'repulling magic from.
It just looks kinda like theseblurry gray blotches, white
blotches.
And so when s makes this mirror,you can now clearly see the
other realm and you can see, oh,when I'm pulling magic from this

(20:59):
other part of the world, I'mkilling an individual, or I'm
killing a plant, or I'm killingan animal.
And people couldn't see thatbefore.

Kelsey (21:06):
Mm-hmm.
And

Amanda (21:07):
they potentially like, or not potentially intentionally
blinded them, so they didn'thave to deal with oh my gosh,
I'm murdering people in order tolike make our world magic run on
this magic.
So it's pretty dark.
And as Kelsey said, the bookdoes open essentially with a
massacre of toils people asthey're trying to cross into.
To run and find safety.

(21:28):
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
Wonderful job.
Thank you so much.
As always, we will start withthe good, the positives of which
there are.
Yeah.
So what'd you love about thisbook?
I enjoyed how intense it was andhow it was very blatant and out
there with the details of thesociety and like how it's being

(21:48):
uncovered and shared about thewrongdoings and like why it's
built off of, what you weresaying, colonialism and mm-hmm.
Murder.
Mm-hmm.
And other people's life forceessentially.
Mm-hmm.
And then I did enjoy the magicsystem.
It was very unique.
Mm-hmm.
And while it was complicated, Ithought it was well done.

(22:09):
Yeah.
Yeah.
It was super interesting to justkeep unearthing throughout the
book what's happening, becauseI'm like what is she talking
about this mirror?
What it, yeah.
Why is this important?
Then you realize in the end,like what it's actually
creating, but the reason why shegot there was because of the
Quinn knowledge.
Yes.
So that was really interestingas well.
And yeah, Uhhuh, there's justthere's so many connections

(22:34):
between this book and our realworld.
So first off, when you werefirst talking about oh yeah,
this book is clearly.
Very blatantly talking aboutcolonization and genocide.
Mm-hmm.
Because the Tyrannis peoplereally did just overtake this
part of the world.
Mm-hmm.
They oppressed and murdered thelocal Quinn people, took their
knowledge for themselves, tooktheir land for themselves,

(22:55):
created this beautiful city,that's full of all of these
amenities where they're livingessentially in luxury and they
have crafted this entirehistory, this entire narrative
where like, these are ourfounding fathers and here's why
they were glorious and wonderfuland we should worship them.
And they saved this savage Quinnpeople from themselves.

(23:16):
Like they often use the word sinwhen they're referring to the
Quinn and their behavior and whythey were justified and coming
in and taking over.
Yeah.
And a lot of them areessentially.
Enslaved, right?
They work in these reallymenial, dangerous jobs within
mm-hmm.
Teran, the ones who haven't beenkilled, and it's like, oh my
God.

(23:37):
Like you, you see this mm-hmm.
Throughout history and the waythat both Britain and the United
States and a lot of othercountries colonize other places,
and how in order for them tofeel good about themselves and
sleep at night, they had tojustify it.
Whether it was like, oh, we'resaving the savages through
religion.
Or like mm-hmm.
They don't know how to managetheir resources, so we need to

(23:58):
do it for them.
And so the ties right.
Between this world and whathappened, ours are exact, right?
Yes.
It's a fantasy world.
Yes.
But Emma Wong made it crystalclear this is what I'm actually
talking about.
Mm-hmm.
So I, I love that there wasn'tlike Hmm, what could she
possibly be referring to?
She's being really obscure here.
Mm-hmm.
But the other thing that Ireally love that you mentioned I

(24:20):
think you mentioned is that, sothey're getting the magic from.
From the Quinn.
That they're like the origins,but more specifically it's the
Quinn women.
These powerful witches.
That's where Uhhuh, the Quinnpeople, that's where their
wisdom, their knowledge, theirmagic was passed down through
the women.
Mm-hmm.
Like very matriarchal.
And I love that because again,women are often dismissed,

(24:43):
diminished, ignored, et cetera.
And you see that happening inTeran.
Mm-hmm.
And it's very intentionalbecause as women, we hold so
much power in so many ways.
Mm-hmm.
And I thought that was verysmart of her to include that.
Yeah.
And uh, as uh, Ana's doing herresearch mm-hmm.

(25:03):
She is realizing these facts.
Yeah.
Because in her current world, itonly men have been allowed to
practice magic.
Mm-hmm.
And, and yeah.
So it is an uncovering ofknowledge Yeah.
Throughout her journey.
And it's very intentionalbecause these men obviously know
the inherent power that womenhave, especially if women come

(25:23):
together as a collective.
Yeah.
And again, you see thatthroughout history, right?
Where women were brandedliterally as witches and burned
at the stake if they showed, anysort of inclination, or where
they might upset or overturn thenatural order of things.
And women not, being able toparticipate in politics, not

(25:43):
being able to manage their ownfinances, et cetera.
Mm-hmm.
And so again, it's like there'sthis clear.
Parallel mm-hmm.
Between the two, which I reallyenjoyed, but I think, which I
loved about this book.

Kelsey (25:57):
What,

Amanda (25:58):
Emma Wong.
'cause it's very simple in abook like this to make it overly
simplistic, like good, bad,black, white.
Mm-hmm.
End of story.
And she doesn't.
Mm-hmm.
And one of the places you seeher really struggling with some
of the gray or some of the, Idon't know, grittier areas
around some of these topics iswith SI or seona.

(26:18):
I don't know how you say hername.
I listened to the audio book.
Oh.
And s Fiona.
Thank you so much.
So Ana where technically right,Ana's like Yeah.
Female empowerment and I need todo this because I'm gonna, pave
the way for other women when inactuality most of her choices
are very selfish, veryself-serving.
Mm-hmm.
And she acknowledges that onseveral occasions.

(26:40):
Yes.
And like you see that happeningwithin.
The feminist movement right overtime where perhaps one group of
women is like, well we right.
Are focused on our interestsinstead of all women, including
women of color or whatever itmight be.
Or we're going to shame womenwho have chosen to, stay at home
and take care of kids when likeeveryone should be out in the
workforce, whatever it might be.

(27:01):
And so kind of the ways in whichwe can self-sabotage, like
within a movement, within agroup of people.

Kelsey (27:07):
Mm-hmm.

Amanda (27:08):
Even if we think we're like doing the right thing or
doing something for the greatergood.
Mm-hmm.
So I like that she put that inthere.
Yeah.
Yeah.
I don't know.
Piggyback on that, piggybackingon that.
Mm-hmm.
I was watching some othercreators, videos mm-hmm.
About the book.
Yeah.
And I got the sense that, andtell me what you think that

(27:31):
Okay.
Emma Wong was embodying like awhite woman in our society.
Mm-hmm.
With Cy.
Mm-hmm.
Oh.
And because the way that I heardother women talking about it was
like, I related to Samona somuch.
And I was like, oh, interesting.
I didn't feel that.
Yeah.
But I think that white womenwere supposed to relate to her.

(27:53):
Yeah.
But I don't know.
What are your thoughts on that?
Oh, interesting.
I mean, the way that raceoperates in this book is
different from our world, right?
'cause they're different tribes,people, whatever.
But because Seona is part ofthe.
Tyra, yeah.
The Tyrannous tribe of people,Theran group of people who are
at the top of this hierarchy inthis world.
Mm-hmm.
I just, in my mind, so that,that parallel to me is like, oh,

(28:15):
whiteness.
Right?
Like, That's what that wouldlook like in our world.
And so, yes, I did assume, yeah,that she was like the white
equivalent you know, someone inour world.
And so I just assumed that andmm-hmm.
I didn't relate to Cyana in anyway.
Mm-hmm.
Obviously there were momentswhere it's like, oh you know,
she's struggling with somethingthat like we as women struggle
with.
Even when she gets attacked andalmost, raped by the other high

(28:39):
Ma or Arch Ma, I'm like, yeah.
Like we are constantly, youknow, Ren Thorn, Ren Thorn.
That's right.
Yeah.
That danger to ourselves, likeconstantly having to navigate
situations like, is this safefor me, et cetera.
But I think overall I was like,you are very privileged and the
choices that you're making rightnow, again.
Are, may, will maybe benefit avery small percentage of women

(29:02):
in your world.
Mm-hmm.
And this ultimately isn't abouthelping to improve the existence
of all women in your world.
Mm-hmm.
It really is very self-serving.
Mm-hmm.
And so to me, and I'm not,again, I'm not saying like, oh,
this is true of every whitewoman.
But again, if you look at thehistory of the feminist
movement, it very much startedwith Hey, we're just focusing on

(29:25):
white women, and making surewhite women get the vote.
White women have these rights,et cetera.
Like women of color were notpart of the conversation for
quite a while.
Mm-hmm.
So in general, so it did remindme of that because in some ways
Seona in this world is, takingsome first steps in what could
be, the feminist movement in herworld, right?
Yeah.
Mm-hmm.
And again, you see it's like,okay, this is only going to

(29:47):
benefit a small fraction.
Yeah.
Of the women.
And it's certainly not takinginto account the Quinn women who
live in her city, like she'scompletely oblivious to them.
Mm-hmm.
She has no idea what their livesare like.
She has no idea that Brigham,who is her mentor, who runs
these factories that are likeemploying all of these Quinn
women in horrible conditions andis literally making them

(30:07):
infertile.
Because the products they'reproducing are destroying their
bodies.
That is completely, she'scompletely oblivious and it's
not entirely her fault, but alsothat comes with the privilege,
of your status in this world.

Kelsey (30:20):
Yeah.
So

Amanda (30:20):
I totally agree with mm-hmm.
With that estimation of herbeing the white equivalent woman
in this world.
Yeah.
Privilege.
Yeah.
And she does face, a lot ofawful misogyny mm-hmm.
In her world.
Absolutely.
But she also carries so muchprejudice against the Quinn.
Yeah.
And I I struggled with that withher.

(30:41):
Oh my God.
Yeah.
Because I was just like, you'reso fucking annoying.
Why are you talking to him likethat?
Like the way that she talks toTamel because Tamel has
obviously mm-hmm.
A completely differentworldview.
Yeah.
And he's challenging herthroughout this book.
Yeah.
And she hates it at first.
Yep.
And she, like insults him andcontinues down that whole, that

(31:02):
rabbit hole mm-hmm.
Of no, my people are Right.
Yeah.
And you are lower than me.
Because you don't believe in Godand you don't believe in this
and mm-hmm.
How dare you speak against myGod type of thing, and it's
gross.
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
'Cause I think the thing thatmakes it even worse is like when
you're in that situation, seethat happening?

(31:23):
She has such a strong convictionthat her beliefs are the right
ones and the only ones.
Yeah.
Mm-hmm.
And so she's also like, I am inthe right, I have morality on my
side.
And so there's like thisadditional layer of I am not
open to even having aconversation about this.
Yes.
Reconsidering my perspectivebecause my beliefs are also
linked to my worth as anindividual and whether or not

(31:44):
I'm a good or a bad person.
And so when you're in asituation like that with someone
in this fantasy world or in thereal world, it makes it so hard
to have conversations right.
Around issues.
Mm-hmm.
If that's the starting point.
And you see that happening withCy and even after she witnesses
the blight in action and seesthat like it murdered this girl

(32:05):
and just like literally rippedher apart, like this horrible,
brutal thing.
She's still trying to justifyit.
Yeah.
She's still trying to justifyit.
She's still like, no, this can'tbe right.
What?
Yeah and understandably, if yourealize that you have been part
of this horrible machine foryears, of course there's gonna
be this moment of I need to likemm-hmm.
Get my head straight.
But also the fact that it tookher so long to finally condemn

(32:30):
it is really alarming.
Yes.
And again, something that we seein our real world.
Mm-hmm.
Because people don't want to beinconvenience.
People don't wanna have to admitmm-hmm.
Wrongdoing or fault people don'twanna have to grapple with these
hard things.
And then also it's this idea ofalways assuming good intent from

(32:51):
people.
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
And that's what she really liveswith.
Yeah.
And that's one of the thingsthat really bothers me about
these courageous conversations,like that framework that people
have, it's where you're alwaysgoing to assume positive intent.

Kelsey (33:06):
Mm-hmm.

Amanda (33:07):
And when you do that, you end up, like someone like
Cy, where she's just like, no,the arch majors would never do
that.
Mm-hmm.
And it was a big struggle forher to really understand like
the actual reality of her world.
Mm-hmm.
And that's what I.
Saw in that.
Like she's just trying to seegood intent and good intent is

(33:29):
not always there.
No.
And if you realize'cause again,how do I say this?
Her entire worldviewperspective, belief system
experiences are all built onthis truth that, magic's fine.
The blight is a curse for thesinful Quinn, like all of these
things.
Ah-huh.
And if you realize that yourentire society is built on
genocide, like that is going tocompletely undo you.

Kelsey (33:54):
Mm-hmm.

Amanda (33:55):
And so I, yeah, again, I can understand this complete
just WTF moment that she has andone of the things we don't talk
about or haven't talked about isthat she does attempt to take
her own life.
Like when she does Oh yes,that's right.
Come to terms with oh my God,this is what.
This is what my society is builton.
This is the horror that mysociety is built on.
Can't, and the amount of harmthat I've created, the amount of

(34:16):
harm that she's created, theamount of harm she's caused,
like she can't live withherself.
And I think that was a reallyraw moment and a very moving
moment.
Mm-hmm.
Because it's like, yeah.
What do you do in that position?
Do you just call it and justlike, I'm, I'm out, quite
literally.
Yeah.
Or do you then do what sheultimately does, which is she
uses her ability, her power, herprivilege, and leverages that to

(34:39):
try and enact some sort ofmeaningful change mm-hmm.
In Teran.
But it's, yeah it's tricky.
It's hard.
It's difficult.
Uhhuh and you also see, whichI'm glad that they included
these characters.
'cause again.
Emma Wong doesn't want to paintwith broad strokes.
So she does include, you know,Ana's family like her, I think

(35:02):
it's her cousin Alba and her,yeah.
Is her aunt, I think that shelives with and helped raise her.
Yeah, they raised her, but Idon't remember if they were
answer.
Okay.
Cousins.
They were some sort of relativesafter her.
Yeah, her family left or her dadleft and her mom died.
And they're like for the mostpart, right?
They're just like normal,everyday hardworking people who

(35:24):
take care of their neighbors andbring soup to the sick or
whatever.
But they too are complicit inthis.
And so then there's oh, a lot ofother questions that you could
dive into there and like otherdiscussions, but I liked that
it's not like we just saw like,oh, the evil arch majors who
know what's happening and arestill perpetuating Exactly.
Everyday people Yes.

(35:45):
Of teran who don't fullyunderstand what's going on, but
are benefiting from the harmthat's caused.

Kelsey (35:51):
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.

Amanda (35:51):
And it's like, oh yeah, what, okay, what is their role?
What is their responsibility?
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
I don't know.
And at the end when ion's in theprison mm-hmm.
Alba comes in, visits her,right?
Yeah.
And Alba is furious with Cyanabecause her life is changing
essentially.
Yep.
And she's pissed.

(36:11):
And Cyana is like, what thefuck?
Yeah.
People are dying and you'reupset because yeah, your life is
gonna change.
Yeah.
So that, exactly what you justsaid, ML Wong shows the layers
of the mm-hmm.
Of society, like who's feedinginto this and who's willing to
continue Yeah.
This type of harm in the longrun.
Yeah.
Yeah.

(36:32):
It's wild.
Yeah.
And I think that's a big thingwith addressing injustices in
our world, is that anytime youare going to actually address an
issue, right?
It's going to unseat the peoplein positions of power and
privilege.
Mm-hmm.
Yes.
Yes.
And that is going to come withchange and inconvenience and
adjustments.
Mm-hmm.
Most people don't wanna dealwith that, right?

(36:52):
Yep.
They wanna deal with theircomfortable life.
They don't want the status quoto change.
And so it's easy and we've, wesee that when people are doing
more performative things, right?
Oh, mm-hmm.
I put a sign up in my window, orlike, I.
Right.
I don't know, I, whatever itmight be.
Mm-hmm.
Where it's like that didn'tactually cost you anything, it's
not disrupting your life in anysignificant way.

(37:14):
Exactly.
Mm-hmm.
And if it's not, then it's alsonot actually changing anything.
Yes.
If there isn't a disruptionthere, then nothing is actually
shifting.
Yes.
Because that's required for thatto happen.
Yes.
And I definitely, the, what, theone thing I did like reflect on
and continue to do so mm-hmm.

(37:34):
Is around my position ineducation, right?
Mm-hmm.
Because what ML Wong is sayingis you're not necessarily making
progress.
Yeah.
Even if you are attempting to bein these leadership positions.
Mm-hmm.
Yes.
Because the harm is still beingcreated.
Mm-hmm.
Within that system, and thatsystem is just going to be what
it is.

Kelsey (37:54):
Yeah.

Amanda (37:55):
And so anyway, yeah.
Thinking about like some of ourteachers, yeah.
Kicking students out because ofminor, what I perceive as minor
things rather than trying tosolve that with them.
Yeah.
And guess what?
It's mostly our students ofcolor, right?
Yeah.
And tends to be boys of color.
Mm-hmm.
And it's just a thing I continueto see in our mm-hmm.

(38:15):
In our system.
And I personally struggle withthe idea of am I actually
helping in any way?
Am I supporting this system oram I actually supporting.
Our kids.
Yeah.
And I have yet to see like thatit's actually helping.
Yeah.
I, yeah.
I think in my previous schoolthat I was at, for five years, I

(38:36):
did a lot of work with like DEIand was d facilitator, like all
of these things.
And I will say that at the endof my time there, I was just
burnt out.
I was like, does any of thismatter?
Is anything changing?
Is this working in anymeaningful way or am I just like
mm-hmm.
Shouting into the void and youeven see to tie it back to this
book when at the very end of thebook Kelsey said in the summary,

(38:58):
Cy does show.
The entire city, she like castsmm-hmm.
These large mirrors all over thecity so people can see for
themselves firsthand how blightworks.
Mm-hmm.
And can see yes, in fact themagic that you're using every
day to I dunno, run your carsand run your dishwasher,
whatever.
It's resulting in the death ofsomeone or something.

(39:19):
And even with that knowledge,people are still just like,
Nope, we wanna turn a blind eye.
Mm-hmm.
And even at the end right whenessentially the high magistrate
is destroyed.
Cy rigs up this spell and kindof wipes out the entire
leadership.
Yeah.
There is this like ML Wong hintsthat yes, they've been

(39:41):
destroyed, but that a new.
System is just gonna grow up inits place and continue to
perpetuate a lot of the sameills that are already happening.
Mm-hmm.
So the book does leave you withthis what's the word I'm looking
for?
Yeah, like everything is futile.
Like even if you do make theseYeah.
Big changes and try to leveragewhat power you have, like how

(40:02):
much can you really do.
Mm-hmm.
And ultimately Tamil and hispeople, or some of them realize
that the only option is toleave.
Yeah.
It's not staying in the systemand trying to make it work.
It's like you just have to stepoutside of it altogether.
Yeah.
And obviously that's not alwaysan option or even preferable,
but mm-hmm.
It is like, yeah.
Like how that's an option.

(40:25):
Yeah.
My siblings and I have often hadthis conversation about systems
of oppression.
It's like.
do you try to undo it from theinside?
Like we were talking aboutgetting into position of power
and trying to change things fromthere.
Or do you just burn the wholething down and start from
scratch?

Kelsey (40:39):
Yeah.

Amanda (40:39):
And we've gone back and forth about that and I was like,
oh no.
I think you should try and getthe right people into positions
where they can make, massivechanges across the board.
Meaningful change and, I, yeah,so it's, this book is so good
for that though, in terms ofinspiring these discussions and
reflections and it's why I lovedit and why if I was an English
teacher I would absolute tofreaking absolutely teach this

(41:02):
book.
There are so many ways toconnect it to current events, to
get kids to reflect on their ownlived experiences.
Yeah.
I like, I'm like, I wanna becomean English teacher just for this
book.
Yeah.
Books like this.
Yeah.
Definitely.
Inspiring.
I wanna mention one other thingthat I really liked

Kelsey (41:21):
mm-hmm.

Amanda (41:21):
Was the fact that, cyana dies.
Yep.
I actually, I love it when a, anauthor can do the hard things.
Mm-hmm.
And Cyana was never meant tolike, continue in this Yeah.
This world.
Mm-hmm.
And I appreciated that.

(41:41):
It wasn't like this oh my God isshe gonna survive or not?
It was just like, Nope, she'sdying and she's choosing to die.
Yeah.
In the end, and I was also gladthat she didn't regret what she
had done either.
Mm-hmm.
So I thought that was a reallypowerful part of the book.
Yeah.
Mm-hmm.
in no way is this book afeelgood book, and it certainly
doesn't have a feelgood happyending.

(42:02):
No, not at all.
Ending.
And I think because again, s sidid attempt to take her life
earlier, and so it's likemm-hmm.
instead of.
Her doing that.
And I, I wanna be careful abouthow I phrase this.
I think the fact that she wasable to use her death in a way
that incited some change to somedegree

Kelsey (42:25):
mm-hmm.

Amanda (42:25):
Was very, almost like generous on her part.
So she could have taken her lifesimply because she's like, I
can't handle this, mm-hmm.
Like the weight of my consciousis just essentially killing me.

Kelsey (42:37):
Mm-hmm.
But

Amanda (42:38):
instead she was like, if I am going to end my life and
make this choice, like you said,let me at least do it in service
of the greater good and serviceof hopefully getting things to
change in a way that will helpthe Quinn and maybe start to
dismantle the system.

Kelsey (42:54):
Mm-hmm.

Amanda (42:54):
And I like that she, Emma Wong doesn't necessarily
make her out to be.
A martyr either.
Yeah.
You know what I mean?
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Which I think is important too.
People actually very much hateher.
Yeah.
And the Quin don't see her aslike this as like their savior
or something.
Yeah.
No.
You know, Uhhuh especially afterall the harm that's been caused.

(43:18):
So Yeah.
I agree.
I think it was a fitting end tothis book.
I am curious though,'cause Ilike what were your criticisms,
your critiques of the book?
Oh, she was annoying.
I couldn't stand her and likehow long it fucking took her to
like, she kept going back andforth.
That was annoying to me and Iunderstand why that choice was

(43:38):
made and I still didn't care forit.
Yeah.
So that was just one of them.
The other thing that I wanted tobring up too was like, I don't
understand why she had Tomilfall in love with her.
What do you think why ML Wongdid?
Yeah.
Why did.
Why did she choose that?
Yeah.
That to me was the mostunbelievable part of this whole

(44:01):
thing.
Yeah.
Honestly.
'cause the way that Scionatreats Tomil throughout the book
is awful.
Yes.
And he still is just like thereto help her there.
To serve her, is biting histongue, et cetera.
Keeps coming back time aftertime.
Yeah.
And I wanted to just shake himand be like, let her have it.
But yes.
But again, if we're thinkingabout parallels to real life, if

(44:22):
you are trying to get bysurvive, provide for yourself
and for his niece Cara.
You don't always like that is aluxury.
Being able to basically stand upto the people in power and be
like, fuck you.
We want people to do that, butrealistically, he has a young
person in his care that he'strying to provide for, make sure
that she's safe.
Mm-hmm.
And so I could understand why hewas being as subservient and

(44:44):
going with the flow as he was.
But yeah, I didn't understandthe romance and I don't know if
she felt like she had to becausethat's what people are doing in
fantasy these days.
There's always like this.
Yeah, maybe, but it didn't, ormaybe she was trying to say that
even in spite of thesedifferences that we have, we can
still just see the humanity ineach other.

(45:04):
Mm-hmm.
And find meaningful connection.
Yeah.
That could be a message perhaps,it was subtle, whatever it was.
But at the end, like he doesn'tseem like super beat up about
it.
No, he that she's dead.

Kelsey (45:20):
Yeah.

Amanda (45:21):
But yeah, it's just like throughout, he's really
interested in her and I'm like,why?
And she doesn't, we don't getthat from her.
No, not until like later.
And even not to the same degree.
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
So that was, it was justinteresting to me.
I didn't understand why.
Unless I think, okay.
The only other thing I would sayreally quickly is that maybe to
some degree, so si is still awoman, and so she does face a

(45:43):
fair amount of oppression basedon her sex, her gender, right?
Mm-hmm.
Like sexism is a thing.
Misogyny is a thing.
And so I wonder if to somedegree, and we do see that, like
him connecting to her over thatlike this too, this too is
another person who is oppressedto a very different degree.
Mm-hmm.
But who is also facingoppression.
And so I wonder if there's somelike comradery there as well and

(46:04):
why he, especially at thebeginning, why he's so willing
to help her.
Mm-hmm.
Oh yeah.
Maybe, figure her, find her wayas a mage.
Mm-hmm.
Because he can see to someextent.
This reflection of here'sanother person facing a form of
oppression.
Mm-hmm.
But that's all I got.
Yeah.
That's all I got.
The one person that I did notinclude in the summary was his

(46:30):
niece Kara, and oh my gosh, sheis hilarious.
I love her.
I love her so much.
And I don't remember what partof the book, I mean it's page 2
95, but I don't remember whatwas happening exactly.
Okay.
It's a quote from Kara I wannaread, which also makes me
further believe that, um.

(46:52):
ion is an embodiment of a whitewoman in the soci in our
society.
Mm-hmm.
And so Kara says, this is howyou tarnish women solve their
problems, isn't it?
You just mope and cry, and woeis you and everyone comes
tripping over their dicks torescue you.
Oh yeah.
Yep.
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
So that just solidified thatidea for me.
Yeah.

(47:12):
And I just thought, I was like,oh my God, she's talking about
white women.
It's so true though.
White tears.
Yes.
White tears, white fragility,right?
Yes.
Yes.
Yeah and you seek, whichconnects to what we're just
talking about with Tomwell,because Tom will in some ways
enables that.
Like he's trying to help manageher emotions, especially when
she finds out what's going on.
Like he's more concerned aboutmaking sure she's okay versus

(47:33):
like him giving into his ownanger, pain, et cetera.

Kelsey (47:37):
Yeah.
And that

Amanda (47:38):
again, very much is a reflection, like you were saying
on how yeah, white womenhistorically have been coddled
in that way.
Mm-hmm.
And yeah, that quote, such agood quote, like sums it up so
perfectly.
Yeah.
Yeah.
I love Kara.
She's such a badass.
She says what needs to be said.
And I think it's also reallyclear that this book was written

(47:59):
by a woman of color, right?
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Because I don't think, yeah, Ithink it would've been, I'm not
saying it's impossible.
I think it might've been harderfor a white woman to again, step
outside of their livedexperience and write this story
in this way.
Yeah.
And yeah, so I think that I cansee that is very evident in the
text.
But yeah, I just, I, God, I justdon't have enough good things to

(48:21):
say about this book.
There's just it's just a such athought provoking book.
Yes.
And we could talk about it forhours.
Yeah, you could talk about thisbook forever., I've put this
book forth as a book club.
Oh, nice option.
And I'm gonna keep pushing forit'cause yeah.
You could talk about this bookfor ages.
Mm-hmm.
There's so many little thingsthat you could dive into.
Yeah.
And it does, yeah.

(48:43):
It does make you think aboutwhat is my role in all of this?
It even makes me think like,yeah, you know, I'm someone who
still like, uses Amazon and likeshops at Amazon and we know all
of the horrible things that likethat company in corporation has
done.
And like I'm, I am complicit,right?
I'm helping this machinecontinue to run, but because

(49:04):
it's convenient for me, right?
Mm-hmm.
And it's easy and fast, and Ican find things that I can't
find other places and dah, dah,dah.
Mm-hmm.
And it's it's easy to look atthe characters in this book and
be like shame.
And it's like, okay, what areall of the ways?
Yeah.
Even just living in the UnitedStates, all of the things we're
all mm-hmm.
Inherently absolutely complicitin.
Mm-hmm.
It really does.
It leaves you unsettled, but Ithink in a really good way, like

(49:25):
a really necessary way.
Totally.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Even just thinking about AmazonI think that there's so many
ways, even if you don't buy fromAmazon, like my husband and I
have gotten rid of our primeaccount, like mm-hmm.
Over a year ago.
Mm-hmm.
And it's a freaking transition.

Kelsey (49:41):
Oh yeah.
And

Amanda (49:41):
not only that, like sure we got rid of that, but there
are times I still buy fromAmazon.
And I think that we don't fullyunderstand like the web of
Amazon.
Mm-hmm.
And like exactly where it's at.
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Because Whole Foods right?
Mm-hmm.
Owned by Amazon now it Yep.
Yep.
I used it.
And that is like one place whereyou can get really amazing,
quality mm-hmm.

(50:03):
Food.
Mm-hmm.
And like specialty items.
Mm-hmm.
And if you're deciding not to gothere, then you just don't have
access to that stuff.
Yeah.
Yeah.
We have our PCC and co-op, butlike mm-hmm.
It's not the same.
Yeah.
And accessibility and so Yeah.
It's a, that's just one.
Yeah.
Other way, you are supportingAmazon, but there's so many

(50:23):
other ways that we just don'teven know.
Oh, for sure.
Absolutely.
'cause everything is intertwinedwith everything else.
Mm-hmm.
And if you truly were gonna belike, yes, I'm standing on
principles and not doing alllike.
you would have to like just bein a random cabin in the woods
somewhere, like living off theland.
Like pretty much everythingliving off the land, like
engaging with in some way,right?
Is, it has an impact, right?

(50:46):
I don't wanna be like,everything's awful, but yeah.
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
And so that's just something toExactly, and that's the point is
like you can't escape it in thesociety.
Yeah.
Yeah.
So what do you do?
Yeah, what do you do?
I don't know.
And ML won doesn't give us theanswer, which I like.
'cause there isn't, I don'tthink.
There isn't a simple quick fixanswer.
And we think about burn down isone answer though.

(51:09):
And that would just lead to adifferent kind of chaos.
I think especially becausehistory has shown that we as
humans, for whatever reason we.
Constantly get ourselves intothese hierarchical systems where
like we have the haves and havenots of people in power.
That's just what we do.
Mm-hmm.
For whatever reason, how we'rehardwired.
So even if we started from thebeginning, we would probably end

(51:31):
up here again.
You look at civilizations acrosshistory, it's like the same
thing.
So I don't, I think it's justthis is humanity.
I dunno.
Which is a bit bleak.
I don't know how this episode isgetting really dark.
Um, I mean Philosophical um, ifyou think about the way like
indigenous folks used to liveyeah.
It was different.
It wa That is very true.

(51:51):
That is very true.
I think obviously there'sproblems in all societies.
Yeah.
But it wasn't like billionairestaking resources from everybody.
Yeah, it's very true.
It is very true.
And the way thatindustrialization changed the
world.
And then of course, colonizationchanged the world.
Yeah.
Yeah.
There's a lot there.
All that to say, y'all, as youcan tell, this book is just

(52:12):
chockfull of food for thought.
Yes.
It really is.
If you are willing and open toHaving, tough conversations,
tough things thrown your way, Icannot recommend this book
enough.
Mm-hmm.
It's very thought provoking andit's, yeah.
I'm curious'cause we're gonnaget to our literally the best,
are literally the worst in asecond.
I am curious to hear mm-hmm.
The one star reviews and whatpeople didn't like about it.

(52:34):
I have some sneaking suspicions,but I'm very curious.
Yeah.
Did you, I'm assuming CalStation assumed, but I'm
assuming you would alsorecommend this book.
Yes, I would.
Or find a recommendation.
I would.
Okay.
To really anybody.
Yeah.
Yeah, I think so.
Again, you don't have to be afantasy reader to enjoy this
book.
And like I said, when I made myTikTok video about it a while

(52:55):
ago, the magic system can feeloverwhelming at the beginning,
but you truly don't need to havethis deep knowledge and
understanding of it.
Yeah.
To enjoy the book and to get alot out of it.
So don't get too caught up,especially at the beginning when
they're throwing a lot ofterminology at you and be like,
this is too much.
If you stick with it all willbecome clear and the most

(53:17):
important things will be.
Readily accessible for you.
Yeah.
So yeah.
Okay.
Let's have you start then withyour one star reviews.
Okay.
And yeah.
Alright.
The first one is from Chandler.
Okay.
Someone said, read this insteadof Rf kang's babble.
And I really did a double take.
If the main criticism of Babelis that it is too in your face

(53:39):
and not nuanced enough, readthis awful colonizer romance
disguised as a fantasy novel tofind out what too in your face
can really be.
Oh, yeah.
I mean it is very blatant.
It is very in your face.
Yeah.
I don't I'm not, are they sayingit sounds like they didn't want
something that was that.

(54:00):
Yeah, they wanted more nuance orsomething, this too much.
They wanted more nuance.
I like why?
I don't know why because itmakes people feel better if we
yeah, simplify it and likewhat's the sugarcoat it?
Thank you.
Then it makes it easier toswallow and people don't wanna
have to grapple with the toughtruth of being human and maybe
all of that.
Yeah.
I don't know what that is about.
I dunno, either.

(54:21):
My first five star is a littlebit longer.
It's from Emma Skies followingthe sort of, I think it's Kagan
Emma Wong proves once again withblood over Bright Haven that
she's a master at characterwriting.
I could say over and over againthat this is one of the best
books I've read all year.
The best perhaps because themagic system is innovative and

(54:41):
intricate, and the pacing ispitch perfect, and the actual
structure of the storytelling isincredible.
But at the end of the day, it'sML Wong's characters that set
her work apart.
I love a book that proves that acharacter doesn't have to be
likable to be good, and the arcthe main character goes through
in this story is compelling fromstart to finish.
Where does one choose to drawthe line in the search for

(55:02):
power?
They've been systematicallydenied, or is there a line at
all?
What does it truly mean todedicate yourself to truth in
the pursuit of knowledge?
How do ruling classes commitatrocities while pretending
piety and goodness are we?
And should we be judged more onour intents or our impacts?
And what are we willing to dowhen our complicity and

(55:22):
oppressive systems is put infront of our faces?
Blood Over BrightHaven isanother ML Wong book that will
be on my mind for a long time.
And for what it's worth, it isnow the highest rated book club
book.
In the four years I've beenhosting it, the majority of
ratings were five stars, which Idon't believe has happened
before.
And not a single person rated itlower than four stars.

(55:42):
Yeah.
Mm-hmm.
It does, it forces you to like,ask all of those questions,
Yeah.
And I feel like, you know,that's what a, a good novel can
do and should do.
Okay, so my second one's alittle longer than my first it's
from M was m.
Okay.
This is a story about a whitesavior and a noble savage.

(56:03):
This is the kind of story thatwould feel more at home back in
the seventies or eighties, wherethe marginalized not only must
navigate sys system set up toassure their failure, but must
also expend the emotional laborof attempting to educate the
dominant group.
One of the good ones behaves injust the right way to get

(56:23):
someone with more power tolisten to their plight, when it
suits them to listen.
That savior finally sees thewrongs and goes on to challenge
the system, the savior becomesthe hero and the savage is
remembered fondly, but in themargins.
I was in all honesty, astonishedat how many people whose
opinions I generally respectpraise this so highly.

(56:46):
It's just another version of thehelp or the blind side without
blackness.
Mm-hmm.
But the story is the same.
The savage is still the other,still oppressed and seen as less
than due to their race.
How is no one seeing this?
There's just no excuse for thisstory being written today.
It's lessens and parables areantiquated.

(57:06):
At best, we should be doingbetter, expecting more, and
thinking critically about themessage when a book is so
obviously attempting to send amessage as this one was.
Huh.
Hmm.
I think there's a lot there.
I do agree.
I do agree to some degree, and Ithink we talked about it with
like, yeah, Tom will likefalling in love with mm-hmm.

(57:27):
Leona just feels weird and off.
Mm-hmm.
And the fact that in spite ofeverything, he does constantly
have to be the bigger person.
But yeah, I think the challengeto that is like we see Cyana
behaving in really horribleways.
So she's not this pure all good,shiny heroin.
She's not, and like the bookdoes not shy away from showing

(57:48):
all of the horrible parts of hercharacter.
Mm-hmm.
Her behavior, her intents, Tomildoes call them out on several
occasions, as do other people inher life.

Kelsey (57:56):
Mm-hmm.

Amanda (57:57):
And we also see Tomila, especially in places that are
safe for him to do so, givinginto his frustration, anger,
rage, all of those things.
Grief.
So he's not just thisemotionless.
Blank slate that is just like,yes, whatever.
Mm-hmm.
So I can see what she's sayingand I think if you zoomed out
very far, you could be like, ohyeah, that is the, I dunno, the
archetype that this is built on.

(58:18):
Mm-hmm.
But she takes that and I thinkoverturns it by adding more
depth to these characters.
Yeah.
And nuance.
Because that dynamic is realthough.
In real life you have thesepeople in power, and depending
on your positionality as anoppressed person, you only have
so much leeway to enact changewithout putting yourself and

(58:41):
your life at risk and those youlove, and some people have the
ability and desire to do so andhave end up getting killed,
right?
Mm-hmm.
And some people are like, I needto keep my kids in mind, or keep
my, whatever it might be.
Mm-hmm.
So I hear her, I think she does.
Bring up some valid points, butI don't think this book quite
falls into that trap.
Yeah.
And I also don't see Ana, Ididn't see Ana as a savior.

(59:05):
Me either.
And I don't think she built upin that way.
No.
So I just, I struggle with thatsynopsis.
Yeah.
Or that yeah.
Criticism.
But I would also be angry orupset about another, like the
help or Blindside book.
Yeah, of course.
Yes, of course.
Yes.
So I get where they're comingfrom and I just don't see the

(59:25):
same perspective.
Yeah.
Yeah.
I, same.
My next one is just onesentence.
This is from ri.
I will be discussing this bookwith my therapist.
That's a good way of putting it.
Actually, I should tell mytherapist to read this if they
haven't already.
They would love, I'm totally,I'm gonna gonna bring this up in

(59:46):
therapy.
Okay.
My next one is a few paragraphs.
This is from Megan.
I really thought this was goingto be my next five star read.
Sadly, I was slapped in the facewith Infantilization and in FMCI
would've slapped myself.
This is the first time Iactually read a book and want to

(01:00:08):
destroy it while reading, thosewere heavy topics, but they
weren't handled well.
The author was heavy oninfantilization of the readers.
The FMC complains about beingstuck in a misogynistic world,
but keeps putting women downherself, laugh out loud, talk
about double standards.
It was definitely intended forus to hate the MFMC, but as a

(01:00:31):
character driven person, that'san aspect that didn't work for
me.
Also, the romance aspect was soicky.
She started being less mean withthe MMC just because she thought
the racism he was going throughwas the equivalent of sexism she
was going through.
What was the message of thisbook?
Who was this intended for?

(01:00:51):
I'm curious about theinfantilization of the audience.
Is she saying that?
Yeah.
Is she saying, I think she'ssaying that ML Wong is being too
obvious, too heavy handed andlike spelling things out for us
instead of maybe being morenuanced but I think it was
nuanced and I think in a worldthat is full of sexism and

(01:01:12):
misogyny, like you internalizethat as a woman and often take
that on other women, we see thatwith internalized racism.
Mm-hmm.
So I also thought that was like.
Very believable and accurate.
Mm-hmm.
I, yeah I think this is a whitewoman, to be honest.
And some of the ones that I readthat I didn't include were
people that really struggledwith these ideas.

(01:01:33):
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
And I thought that was superinteresting.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Because based on your ownpositionality

Kelsey (01:01:39):
mm-hmm.

Amanda (01:01:39):
That is going to change how you respond to a text and
what and what you don't see andwhat you relate to and what you
don't relate to.
So it is curious Yeah.
Hearing these otherperspectives.
'cause obviously like I am ablack woman reading this book
and so I'm gonna have aparticular perspective.
Yeah.
So it is interesting, yeah.
To see folks responding to it inways that are very different
from me.
Yes, please.
Okay.

(01:01:59):
Alright, so this one's a littlebit longer.
This is from Jess Owens.
Ml Wong did it again.
As a fan girl of the Sword ofCagan, I had high hopes for this
book.
I didn't even read the summary,so I had no idea what I was
going into, but that didn'tmatter because it was excellent.
This was fantastic.
Gripping from the first pagecomplex and unique magic system.
At first, I was so confused bythe magic, but it understood it

(01:02:22):
more as I read, and it's becomeone of the best written magic
systems I've read.
This story was well written,intense, and dark.
Wong covered so many topics, butit never felt too convoluted,
maybe because they're allintertwined.
Sexism, colonialism, capitalism,racism.
The best thing about this storyand the topics it discusses is
that it shows that almostnothing is black and white.

(01:02:43):
Things are complicated.
One solution for some may be apunishment for others.
It presents tough questions andshows realistic outcomes of the
struggle with humanity.
I don't know what else to saywithout being s.
Spoilery.
Yes.
The FMC is unlikable, and that'svery important to the story.
So even if you're annoyed withher, that's fine.
That's expected.
Don't quit because of that.

(01:03:04):
This is such a worthwhile read.
Both if you want an excellentstandalone fantasy novel, but
also because you're a human.
And there's much to learn here.
Yes, yes, Yes.
Snaps.
Just, yeah, no, honestly.
I forgot what I was gonna say,but yeah.
Agreed.
Agree.
Yeah.
I love it.
Love it so much.
No, I hated Ana so many times.
That's you're supposed to,that's the whole point.

(01:03:27):
Yeah.
She was so annoying though.
Come on.
Okay.
Last one Star read by ChristinaGunn.
I'm just a girl standing infront of the Good Reads
community, asking how.
So many of you could possiblygive this book so many stars,
the FMC insufferable.

(01:03:47):
It was a chore to read abouther.
The writing was not good enoughto carry how horrible she was.
Even the story itself has holesnot good.
What?
I feel like the writing was sogood.
Oh, the writing was how towrite?
Yeah.
I don't know.
Yeah, what this person's talkingabout, Christine, like a lot of
people, and I get it.

(01:04:08):
I understand people not wantingto read annoying characters But
yeah, again, she wasinsufferable for a reason, like
a valid reason.
Like it made sense.
She wasn't annoying just to beannoying.
Like the choices that she mademade sense for who she was and I
think the only reason why you'dbe turned off by this character
is if perhaps I don't know, it'slike touching a little too close

(01:04:28):
stone.
I dunno.
Yeah, exactly.
Okay.
My last one, just one quickparagraph.
This is from Ali l.
A young woman defies the oddssystemic sexism, and passes the
necessary exam to work for themunicipal power company.
Seona is a product of herenvironment xenophobia.
So while all her casual racismis intentional and rather the

(01:04:49):
point that doesn't make it anyeasier to read without making
this face, and it's like a.
Grimace face Tomil is a survivorof a truly gutting first
chapter, rapid organic breakdownand being the target of Ion's.
Mini Airy, isn't he Stupid?
Laughs.
This book is about both magicaltypewriters and resource
exploitation, protectivebarriers and cognitive

(01:05:10):
dissonance.
There is a splash of romance,but it isn't really necessary.
The stakes were already mountainhigh and needed no further
sweetening and a healthy heapingof slap in the face reality.
You'll be pretty bummed, uglycrying by the end, even if
you're cynical, which is I thinkthe mark of some good writing.
It's not a happy story, but it'snot a happy world right now.
So who can blame it?

(01:05:31):
Or happy world ever, honestly.
But yes, I agree.
And there was something in here,what was, oh, the cognitive
dissonance.
Yeah.
That's such a thing that'spervasive both throughout our
society and throughout this bookwhere it's like, you know that
something.
Is true, but you basically are ccontinually lying to yourself,

(01:05:56):
right?
In order to get through each dayor to justify it, rationalize
it, et cetera.
Mm-hmm.
Yep.
That's a huge part.
Huge part of this story.
Oh my gosh.
Anyhow, if you can't tell, Ilove this book.
We love this book.
It's a good one.
It's a good one.
I love that.
It's a standalone.
I was like, how is this gonnaend?
I was like, yeah.
I was like, okay, it's gonna beopen-ended, but.

Kelsey (01:06:17):
Yeah.
Yeah.

Amanda (01:06:17):
That was the other reason that I recommended it or
wanted you to read it and why Iwanted to read it was because it
was a standalone.
As soon as I saw that, I waslike, sold Standal fantasy.
I will read this standalonefantasy novel.
'cause you don't often find thatin the fantasy genre.
Mm-hmm.
They're always like so manybooks.
Yes.
So we love it.
It's great.
We will ask for you guys tochime in with your opinions this

(01:06:39):
Thursday when we do our voting.
Kelsey?
Yeah.
Can you tell folks one more timewhere to find us?
Yes, please find us at Instagramat Live Vibes Only podcast and
TikTok and YouTube at Live VibesOnly Podcast.
Fun tidbit about YouTube.
If you want to watch.
The episodes, I upload themright away on Sunday nights so

(01:07:03):
you have early access to them,early

Kelsey (01:07:05):
access.

Amanda (01:07:06):
If you so wish you can see everything that's happening
on our end.
While we're recording these onour faces over fun little
antics.
Thank you so much.
So yeah, make sure to check outour socials.
Make sure to absolutely chimeinto the conversation on
Thursday.
Let us know your thoughts onthis book.
I feel like, I don't know, Ifeel like we might stir the pot
a bit with this episode, so I'mcurious to see what kind of

(01:07:26):
responses we might get.
And as always, especially nowthat we're wrapping up this
episode, take a moment pleasebefore you go on with the rest
of your day, hit that five starrating.
If you've got a little bit ofextra time, leave us a one or
two sentence review on Apple orcomment on this episode on
Spotify.
You can let us know yourthoughts there as well, and show

(01:07:47):
some love.
Yeah, show us some love and wewill see you next Monday.
Bye bye.