December 16, 2024 • 31 mins
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Can embracing life's emotional ups and downs truly lead to personal growth and resilience?
And what happens when we do this from a young age?
This is part 2 of a 2 part conversation, where we dive into what it takes to create leaders who believe in themselves, are resilient, adaptable and have the courage to stand up for what they believe in, without waiting for permission.
Join us as we explore the powerful concept of "the pit," a framework that helps young people navigate through emotional indecision and challenges. Together, we discuss how normalising these emotional swings can shift expectations away from constant happiness and towards a healthier understanding of personal growth.
Our conversation then delves into the importance of valuing your number one asset, your people and how to bring people along on your vision for what's possible.
Finally, we unravel themes of gratitude and empowerment, touching on the breakdown of traditional power dynamics to foster equality and empathy organisations. This episode is a must for anyone looking to understand and inspire the next generation of leaders.
Want to connect with Kelvin? Send him an email kelvinbennetts52@gmail.com
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Jolynne Rydz (00:00):
Welcome back to the podcast.
Now.
This is part two of ShapingTomorrow's Leaders with Kelvin
Bennetts.
So if you haven't listened topart one, go back to episode 10,
part one, shaping Tomorrow'sLeaders with Kelvin Bennetts,
because we're about to diveright back into the conversation
.
Yeah, and I love theforethought that went into.
(00:20):
You know, let's address it now,when it's easier to address,
rather than waiting for it tolater.
And so how does that contrastwith your concept of the pit?
So you talked already aboutresilience and adaptability and
how you actually help kidsthrough that.
Could you explain a little bitmore about that concept for us?
Kelvin Bennetts (00:45):
bit more about that concept for us.
Sure, the pit isn't somethingwe invented.
I was really fortunate sometime ago to be given a
scholarship to travel overseasand bring that learning back
into the department.
I chose to go to StonefieldSchool in Auckland, new Zealand.
They were working on the samesort of things as us, except a
few years ahead of us.
So I went there to learn fromtheir errors and not make the
(01:08):
same ones.
And within a couple of minutesof being in the rooms watching
the children and listening tothem, they were talking about
the pit.
And so while we took theconcept of the pit, we reworked
it a little bit, but the pit wereworked it a little bit, but
the pit was putting somebody inthat state of indecision.
And we all end up in the pitevery day, and often that's an
(01:32):
emotional pit for us, wherewe're disappointed or upset by
something and we don't know whatto do.
We'll often get caught in thatterrible thinking trap or a
circle where we'll just go roundand round and round and keep
coming up with the same answer.
that doesn't work and we had toteach kids about well, when
you're in the pit, the firstthing to do is to recognise that
(01:53):
you're there.
And we'd use language like thatwith our kids and say, look,
right now you're in the pitabout this.
And we'd use the visual infront of them and say, well,
here you are.
But here's some steps to getout of the pit and we checked
that they'd work and really ourultimate goal with that was that
(02:14):
to be at a stage where somebodycould say well, jolene, I was
in the pit about that.
Here's how I got out of it andreally what you're building
there is that ability to be moreresilient and that ability to
recognize that you're there.
Often people don't recognizeyou're there and I still have to
be reminded sometimes by peoplearound me hey, you're in the
pit about this, you need to getout.
(02:35):
And while I might grumble andsay, damn it, they're using my
strategies on me, I'd have tosay, yes, and you are exactly
correct.
Correct, I am, and I need torecognize it and I will, and I
need to get out of the pit.
There are lots of times as aprincipal, where really
difficult things were there andyou were.
(02:56):
You would get stuck in the pitabout it because you'd be
sleepless at night worryingabout things, and that was a
sure sign that it's time thatyou're doing something about it.
But really that's where thatpit concept came from.
We redrew it with ourcartoonist and then we turned it
into the learning pit as well,and the learning pit was really
(03:18):
about learning and really whatthe shop will do Sorry, I'm just
making it impossible for you tosound recording there and
really what we were trying to dowas ultimately get kids to push
themselves a little bit, getout of that safe zone, and the
(03:42):
learning pit was excellent touse that because we wanted kids
in a state of indecision, notjust comfortably knowing oh, I
know the answer's here, it'sokay.
We wanted them to be in thatpit of indecision where they're
going.
I'm really not sure what to dohere.
I actually have to think aboutthis and really what we were
trying to build there was thatconcept of pushing yourself a
(04:06):
bit harder, not just sitting andbeing comfortable.
Jolynne Rydz (04:09):
Yeah, and it really normalizes that, doesn't
it, that you have these emotionsthat go up and down and you
have these moments of indecision.
And I think that's so important, because I've noticed a lot of
the people that I work with orteams that I work with.
There's this false expectationthat everything should be happy
and great all the time, and youknow that's not really human.
(04:30):
Either something's going onunderneath that you're not
showing, or maybe you know youare in a good period, but things
are going to change at somepoint.
So I love that.
It just normalizes that factthat we're not always in this
great happy space.
And how do we then get out ofit?
Kelvin Bennetts (04:45):
I think as a manager, you need to um, if
you've got people, if you'reworking with people, you have
people working for.
You have to understand thatthey're not robots and for the
preceding 12, 14 hours orwhatever, they've been outside
of your workplace and who knowswhat's going on there for them.
(05:06):
I mean, we ended up with a teamof about 80 and it would be
fair to say that at any one time, just because of the age,
demographic, somebody's parentswere ill or unwell or needed
help.
We went through that quite abit, including me personally and
Christine personally with hermum, and I went through it with
my mum that you, you havetraumatic time at home and I'd
(05:31):
often work with people that werefacing that and saying you know
, work can actually be your safeplace, just away from all the
things that are going on.
For a moment, and try to putthat aside and normalise things
a little bit for yourself in theway your emotions are running
or feeling or you're chewingthings over, and just have that
(05:55):
mindset that I'm free from thatissue at the moment.
And that might sound a littlebit harsh.
I don't mean it to sound harsh,but there are a whole lot of
reasons why people could arriveat work in a position where they
felt quite vulnerable or quitelow and you needed to work with
your staff to be able to supportthem in that, in that process.
(06:17):
But then that also leads to thefact that you need to be, you
need to understand your staff,you need to have a relationship
with them.
You can't be just, uh, in youroffice with your door closed.
You need to be, you need tounderstand your staff, you need
to have a relationship with them.
You can't be just in youroffice with your door closed.
You need to be out on the frontline and and working with them
and taking the hits like theymight do.
And you know, sometimes you'rethe one that has to take the hit
(06:39):
for somebody because you'reprotecting them from something
that's coming towards them.
It might be downwards from thedepartment, it might be a parent
who was disappointed withsomething, but you needed to be
able to do that because youneeded to support the people who
worked for you and did theeveryday practice that you
(06:59):
couldn't be there for that.
You would hope that they'd justget all that right and that
started to then build thatenvironment where people needed
well.
First off, people need to feellike you've got their back and
then, once you start to buildthat, you can work on other
things as well.
I mean, we, we spend a lot oftime on staff well-being.
(07:20):
One of my philosophies is thatthe your staff are your greatest
asset.
It doesn't matter what you'vegot.
You could have the mostfabulous factory or school or
classroom or whatever, but ifyou don't have the right person
in there, that doesn't meananything.
So you need to be looking afteryour staff and we we'd run a
quite comprehensive staffwell-being program.
(07:42):
That included massages, wouldyou believe, during during
periods of high stress, untilthe department put a line
through being able to do that.
So we just went around that andbought two massage chairs and
put them in the staff room sothat people could be in there
for 15 or 20 minutes for a cyclein the massage chair, and they
(08:04):
were being used quite a lot.
We we looked at well.
We need to be well fed, so we'dbe making sure that there were
some walk-in, walk-out luncheswhere you didn't have to do
anything.
There was always crew in staffroom if you were hungry, because
sometimes you're busy as aparent and the last thing you
think of is your own lunch whileyou're getting your kids out
(08:25):
the door.
And we also used to have sometreat times where we'd just have
a coffee and cake day at thelocal cafe just near the school
at Tanks, because you need to beable to reward your staff for
the untold work that they do.
Teaching's an easy hit oh, youget all those holidays and rah,
(08:48):
rah, rah, but they forget thateach day staff don't walk out at
3.30.
If they're going out to go home, I can guarantee they're going
to do an hour or two work athome anyway.
It's just the nature of the job.
A lot of it's unpaid.
It comes back to choosing theperson that loves doing it,
(09:09):
who's not doing it, to be paidto do the job.
They're doing it because it's apassion and once you've got
passionate people in front ofkids, that rubs off and kids
hear your passion and feel itand they actually love it to
know.
One of the last things I did atthe school was challenge the
(09:31):
staff and I gave them a smallgrant each person to bring their
passion into the room.
Show the kids what your passionis.
So kids started to see allsorts of things.
I had one teacher brought in arecord player and records
because he loves collectingrecords.
We had another teacher thatbrought in Carlton gear because
he's a Carlton nuffie, which isunfortunate.
(09:54):
He's just slightly better thanCollingwood, but not by much.
We had other teachers that werebringing in basketball rings but
working that into their program, that you know you're achieving
your goals, go and shoot somegoals, type thing, and that
worked really well.
Or whereas a student might walkinto my office and there are
(10:16):
all these sitcom spanners thereand they'd look at me and go,
what are they?
And I'd say well, that's mypassion.
I collect them because I grewup playing with them, because my
dad was a motor mechanic, andso they start to see you more as
a human and more as a person.
Now.
One of the misnomers I had tooften undo for preps was that I
(10:38):
didn't actually sleep at theschool.
I didn't stay in my office allnight and come out in the
morning and then go back in atnight.
Jolynne Rydz (10:49):
Because you're always around.
Kelvin Bennetts (10:50):
Yeah, that's right.
They think that you live at theschool and they'd be shocked if
they'd see you out and about inthe community, out shopping.
They'd walk past, they'd seeyou in the supermarket aisle and
you'd see these eyes looking atyou like this you eat food.
Jolynne Rydz (11:11):
You go to the supermarket.
Kelvin Bennetts (11:13):
Yeah, Wow.
And they were even funnier,even though we never hid it,
that Christine and I weremarried.
So you know, for people thatdon't know, Christine taught it
here in bed as well, but theywere just kind of like oh, I
know the biggest secret in theworld.
(11:33):
They were very funny about it.
You'd just have a laugh withthem and say, yes.
Jolynne Rydz (11:41):
I think that's so important because in
organizations there's oftenpower dynamics between the
leaders and the employees andsometimes there's an us and them
dynamics.
Of being able to level thatplaying field and just go we're
all human is incrediblyempowering and connecting and I
think kind of links in with yourtalk earlier about just being
(12:03):
seen as people.
Kelvin Bennetts (12:05):
The power dynamics is very evident in a
school about adult versus child,and that was one of the things
we were trying to do with ourkids is to say we need to level
that playing field a little bit.
I'd encourage kids to talk tome if things weren't going well
in the classroom.
And lo and behold, some did,and I really commend them for
(12:25):
stepping up and saying, hey,things weren't going well in the
classroom and lo and behold,some did, and I really commend
them for stepping up and saying,hey, things aren't working well
here.
I don't know if the teacheractually likes me, and really
that was often a perceptionrather than a reality, but if
you dealt with that, then you'dsee things level out quite
quickly and then the child couldstart to learn better again.
Because one of the things nodoubt is if you don't think your
(12:47):
boss likes you, you won't do agood job and your mindset every
time you see that person is thatthey don't like me.
Now imagine you're a child in aclassroom and you don't think
the teacher likes you.
You're there for six and a halfhours every day.
So what is that doing to yourself-talk, what is it doing to
(13:11):
your mental health and what isit doing to your learning
disposition?
Are you ready to learn?
Hell, no, you know it me readyto learn, because you're telling
yourself you're the worstperson in the world and this
person doesn't like me, and soyou need to be able to deal with
those sorts of things.
And really we wereexceptionally fortunate that so
(13:31):
many of our kids arrived atschool ready to learn.
I've been in schools whereyou'd spend the first hour
actually getting them ready tolearn, so we were very fortunate
and I often say that to thecommunity, we're in a very lucky
spot that our kids come toschool ready to learn that they,
they, they feel like they'vegot someone who loves them.
(13:53):
This is one of our big picturethings, too, about building that
gratitude and gratefulness forwhat you have rather than what
you don't have, and so we didwork with the resilience project
and we had really really strongdata with that.
But really it was important tostart building that gratefulness
and gratitude about what youhave rather than what you don't
(14:15):
have.
And these are the most commonthings that will come up for
parents are phones, and it'llhappen when your child will
start to manipulate you like weall did with our parents.
It'll come in the form of wordsand it'll go like this mum,
(14:36):
I've only got the iPhone 12 andthe iPhone 13s come out and I'm
the only one who doesn't haveone, and it's so unfair and
you're just not nice because youwon't let me have one.
I usually wouldn't use wordsquite like that.
It'd be far more vicious thanthose words.
(14:58):
But really that was thatinability to be grateful that
you actually have a phone, overthat need to have the most
latest phone, and that's a verydestructive thing that you've
always got to have the latestthing.
It's kind of, and one of thethings I said in my final speech
to the school was that lifeisn't a competition about who
(15:20):
has the most toys.
Really, the mindset should beabout what good have you done
with what you have, and sothat's more important than
having the latest phone, havingthe fastest car, having the the
most fishing gear, having thebiggest collection or whatever.
(15:42):
It's really about what you'vedone with what you've got.
What have you done to helpthose around you?
What have you done to improvewhat needed to be improved?
What have you done to supportthose who need to be supported?
And a quiet thing that I wasreally proud of was that we
(16:04):
supported the Diamond ValleyFood Share for all the time I
was a principal.
We've given them probably tensof thousands of cans of food
over those 18 years becauseevery time we were out of
uniform we collected food.
But the reality was that everysingle can we'd give them would
be gone in a week or two becausethat helped others and that
(16:28):
started you started to see thatin built in our kids.
When they'd come forward withtheir initiated projects in the
leadership program to run an outof school day and out of the
uniform day that they'd say, oh,we'd like to raise money for
this, but we want to get thecans for the food share as well.
And so that's what it is to me,to others it isn't, to others
(16:52):
it's I've got the biggest boat.
Jolynne Rydz (16:55):
Yeah, and it's something I see a lot of in
terms of being able to switchfrom this entitlement, scarcity
mentality to no, I've got what Ineed and how can I best add
value from where I am now.
And I think it's such anempowering space to be in and to
have that from youth, I think,an incredible gift.
Kelvin Bennetts (17:17):
Don't sit there and think I've been saying I've
always had that belief becauseI haven't.
I've been on the other sidewhere I thought I had to have
this, I had to have that, and itwas a realisation that you
don't actually have to havethings, things you actually need
(17:40):
.
What you need the most in yourlife is the love and support and
the trust of one person.
That's what you need the mostin your life, because then
you've got somebody you canshare your disappointments and
joys with.
But you can also feel likesomeone in the world has my back
to me.
That's the most important thingis that you've got somebody who
has your back in the world yeah, and that's an incredible thing
(18:02):
to have.
Jolynne Rydz (18:04):
So, before I dive into our seven swift questions,
I I'm curious to know what doesthe next chapter look like for
you?
Is there still more you want todo in in a different lens?
What does it look like for you?
Is there still more you want todo in a different lens?
What does it look like for you?
Kelvin Bennetts (18:17):
Yeah, I'm still sorting that out.
I'm on leave for a year beforeI actually retire and there are
things that I'd really like todo, but I'm still undecided what
that looks like.
I still have a passion aboutwhat schools can look like and
(18:38):
what you can do within a schooland exploring some possibilities
about what that might look likein a construction sense or a
consultancy sense.
But then, who knows, I mightfind another passion that I
actually want to do, or Icoached for a long time.
I don't know if I want to goback to that, but I'm still
(19:00):
maybe open to doing somethinglike that again.
It depends as you get a bitolder, you get a bit more picky
about what you want to do andyou're actually doing it because
you want to do it rather thanyou have to do it.
So I doubt very much that it'llbe back.
Well, no, I'm 100% sure it'snot back.
(19:21):
As a principal of a school, Ihave had some offers of doing
some mentoring to people andwe'll look at that.
At the moment, I'm justenjoying being able to do
whatever I want.
At the moment, when I want to.
Um, there's a job list that'sclearly mounting up about what
(19:42):
needs to be done at home and inother places well, you've got
all these sitcom tools rightyeah
I don't seem to be, um, I don'tseem to be getting much off that
list at the minute.
I'm trying, but there's also asense of doing something that
I've probably not done before,and that's just giving yourself
(20:05):
time to recover from things andto refresh.
You tend to burn yourself outand you tend to just push, and
for some reason on Facebook I'mgetting these feeds of these
jumpers that says it's aBennett's thing, but I don't
stop when I'm tired, I stop whenit's done and I'm thinking well
(20:30):
, that kind of does sum it up,because I would spend weekends
at school doing things andmaking sure things were right.
In the end, I said to myselfI've got to stop doing that and
have other things as well, andat that time the football
coaching was really good becauseit forced me away from that.
It was completely nuts forthose three hours while you were
(20:52):
coaching, but it was adifferent sort of crazy to what
being a principal is, butbasically the same.
You were trying to predict thefuture and put things in place
now so that those things didn'thappen, and so really, that's
what it was the same.
Jolynne Rydz (21:10):
Yeah, so transferable and so meaningful.
So let's bring us into theSwift 7 questions, so no need to
overthink them.
They're just kind of quickquestions that you can answer to
give us a bit more insight intoyou and the way you think.
So the first question is inyour view, what are three words
to describe an ideal leader?
Kelvin Bennetts (21:32):
I think you have to be resilient, you need
to be adaptable and you need tobe independent in your thinking.
So, yes, you'll havedisappointment.
Show that you can absorb that.
That's where that adaptabilitycomes in.
You need to be sometimes rollwith the punches and what might
be perfect world in yourthinking is not how you can get
(21:52):
it in the real world.
But you might be able to get itclose to that and you need to
be adaptable in the way you'regoing about that.
And then you need to have somesort of independence in your
thinking and not reliant onothers thinking, certainly be
influenced by it.
One of the things I'd alwayssay is that learn from others.
Sometimes you might dismisswhat they're doing totally,
(22:15):
sometimes you might take partsof it and rework it and
sometimes you might think, well,that's just perfect the way it
is.
But they'd be three things I'dsay.
Jolynne Rydz (22:23):
Beautiful and number two, so fill in the blank
.
Magnetic authenticity is.
.
.
Kelvin Bennetts (22:30):
Okay So this is interesting, but I
think it's just you've got to beyourself, eg, you're realistic,
you can't be fake.
You've got to have beliefs, youneed to be visionary and you
have to believe in them, but youalso need to be able to express
why you believe in those things.
(22:50):
You need to have integrity inyour leadership, be honest and I
think you need to be a problemsolver, so you're a lateral
thinker as well.
Jolynne Rydz (23:00):
Wonderful.
So number three when you noticeyourself trying to fit in,
what's the first thing that youdo?
Kelvin Bennetts (23:07):
I think to myself I'm trying to fit in here
and I don't know if I do.
It is something that I said inmy closing speech to Yarinbet.
That was the first place I'dever felt like I fitted in, and
that's just a reality.
That's just a personal feeling,but what I try to do is just
(23:29):
try to find a comfortable spacewhere you're talking with
somebody and just try to blendinto some conversation and try
to get comfortable with what'sgoing on and try to understand a
little bit of what's happening.
That sort of stuff.
Believe it or not, I'm not aperson who's going to walk into
a party and say hey, everybody,I'm here.
I'm much quieter than that,although the job demanded me to
(23:52):
be at the front often andrunning assemblies and things
like that, which I loved doing,and I particularly loved if
there was a question and answertime.
I loved that sort of challengeas well.
But in a party sense, I'm morelikely to be the quieter one
rather than the one that'sleading the whole thing, because
I don't mind others being thecentre of attention.
(24:14):
I don't really like myselfbeing the centre of attention.
I don't really like myselfbeing the centre of attention.
So I did find that finalassembly very challenging in
that sense.
Jolynne Rydz (24:26):
Yeah, definitely.
And so number four what songgets you really pumped?
Kelvin Bennetts (24:33):
Sometimes I'd listen to music in the morning
in my office and people would gopast and say, well, what's
going on here?
But the song that I wouldalways my go-to song would be
Psycho by Muse.
And if you ever want to go intotheir great live band, go and
see them.
Jolynne Rydz (24:51):
Okay, good to know I'd go again if they were here.
Kelvin Bennetts (24:54):
Yeah, yeah, okay, number five, which is
what's the most daring thingyou've ever done the most daring
thing I've ever done is um askchristina, my wife, my now wife.
Jolynne Rydz (25:06):
That's beautiful number six is do you have a
favorite quote or mantra thatyou live by?
Kelvin Bennetts (25:11):
I do, um, it's from a, a coach in the nfl um,
an ex-coach of the San Francisco49ers who I follow.
His name was Bill Walsh.
His mantra was that, no matterwho, if it was your turn to take
the hit, you took the hit, evenif you were the high play
quarterback on millions ofdollars a year.
(25:32):
If you needed to do that tomake the play successful or make
something successful, you'd doit, and so I took that into the
way that I'd be the principal.
If it was my turn to protectsomebody, or I needed to take
the hit for something, or if itwas my fault, I'd put my hand up
and say, well, I messed upthere, I'll do better.
And so that was something thatI learnt quite early on and
(25:58):
always tried to hold to that.
Jolynne Rydz (26:01):
Thank you, and so our last question is what's one
small thing that brings youincredible joy?
Kelvin Bennetts (26:07):
Just at the moment it's actually completing
any building projects I'm doingat home.
Yes, getting them off the list,trying to From a teaching sense.
Often it was just somebodywould be at my door, they'd
slide a note under my door orthey'd say something about
(26:30):
something that you'd beenworking on or done for them, and
I'd think to myself gee, thattook real guts for a
seven-year-old to come and saythank you or write a letter or
something like that.
Because I remember back to whenI was in primary school.
I'd tippy-toe past theprincipal's office because I was
(26:51):
so scared of them that I'dnearly be pooping my pants as I
was walking past the door,mainly because they hit me.
But the thing is that I alwayslooked at that and thought well,
that means that we're reallymaking some impact with somebody
if they're coming up andthey're saying thank you, or I
appreciate this, or a note thatthey'd written you, and I'd
(27:12):
always take time to try andwrite back see if somebody did
that because it was verymeaningful for them to do that
in the first place.
Jolynne Rydz (27:22):
Wonderful Well, this has been such an
enlightening conversation,Calvin.
I really do appreciate yourgenerosity and time.
If people want to connect withyou, where can they find you?
Kelvin Bennetts (27:33):
Well, nowhere really.
Um, I am on facebook but it'svery private and I only have
that for messenger for footballcoaching.
But, um, you can email me.
I have an email addressavailable if somebody wanted to
write to me to ask for things,and just provide me with some
contact details and I'll makecontact back, and so my email
(27:55):
address to use iskelvinbennetts52@ gmail.
com.
Jolynne Rydz (28:01):
Wonderful.
Well, thank you Once again.
It's been wonderful, and I hopeyou have a wonderful day.
Thanks for joining us.
Kelvin Bennetts (28:08):
Well, thank you .
I appreciate being invited.
It's been great to speak withyou.
Jolynne Rydz (28:13):
If you've just listened to the two parts of
this episode, well done.
I hope you've enjoyed it andthere's so many great things in
there that is so transferablebeyond education.
I hope you take that messageaway.
One of the key things, I thinkwas the pit and that ability to
move through change.
There are so many organizationsdealing with an incredible
(28:36):
amount of change currently andwe get stuck thinking about how
to move our people throughchange and so many people find
resistance.
And I think part of it is thatpersonal awareness and toolkit
of how to move yourself throughchange.
And that's something that Ilove working with teams on.
And I also love the concept ofyour.
(29:00):
People are not robots and Ithink sometimes with the
pressure of getting results, ofmeeting targets, that we can
treat people like robots Whetheror not that's on purpose, it's
probably unconscious, but whenthat happens, that's when we can
start to reach trust andrespect and those social
contracts that people rely on tofeel safe in the workplace.
(29:24):
And the third thing I reallyloved about this conversation,
out of so many things, is thatability to equal the power
dynamic, because inorganizations, again, there are
so many power dynamics at playand if we're not conscious of
how that can modify people'sbehavior, modify what you hear
and see in the organization and,at its worst, stop you from
(29:48):
seeing what's actuallypreventing the organization from
doing great work and gettinggreat results, because people
are too scared to be open aboutthe challenges.
That's when being able to levelthe power dynamic and create
that environment and thatculture where you can have those
open conversations, regardlessof your title or who you are in
(30:08):
the organization, that's soincredibly powerful.
So, once again, I trust you'veenjoyed that and reach out in
the comments.
Find me on LinkedIn if you wantto discuss the conversation
further.
Welcome back to the podcast.
Now.
This is part two of ShapingTomorrow's Leaders with Kelvin
Bennetts.
So if you haven't listened topart one, go back to episode 10,
part one, shaping Tomorrow'sLeaders with Kelvin Bennetts,
because we're about to diveright back into the conversation
.
Yeah, and I love theforethought that went into.
(00:20):
You know, let's address it now,when it's easier to address,
rather than waiting for it tolater.
And so how does that contrastwith your concept of the pit?
So you talked already aboutresilience and adaptability and
how you actually help kidsthrough that.
Could you explain a little bitmore about that concept for us?
Kelvin Bennetts (00:45):
bit more about that concept for us.
Sure, the pit isn't somethingwe invented.
I was really fortunate sometime ago to be given a
scholarship to travel overseasand bring that learning back
into the department.
I chose to go to StonefieldSchool in Auckland, new Zealand.
They were working on the samesort of things as us, except a
few years ahead of us.
So I went there to learn fromtheir errors and not make the
(01:08):
same ones.
And within a couple of minutesof being in the rooms watching
the children and listening tothem, they were talking about
the pit.
And so while we took theconcept of the pit, we reworked
it a little bit, but the pit wereworked it a little bit, but
the pit was putting somebody inthat state of indecision.
And we all end up in the pitevery day, and often that's an
(01:32):
emotional pit for us, wherewe're disappointed or upset by
something and we don't know whatto do.
We'll often get caught in thatterrible thinking trap or a
circle where we'll just go roundand round and round and keep
coming up with the same answer.
that doesn't work and we had toteach kids about well, when
you're in the pit, the firstthing to do is to recognise that
(01:53):
you're there.
And we'd use language like thatwith our kids and say, look,
right now you're in the pitabout this.
And we'd use the visual infront of them and say, well,
here you are.
But here's some steps to getout of the pit and we checked
that they'd work and really ourultimate goal with that was that
(02:14):
to be at a stage where somebodycould say well, jolene, I was
in the pit about that.
Here's how I got out of it andreally what you're building
there is that ability to be moreresilient and that ability to
recognize that you're there.
Often people don't recognizeyou're there and I still have to
be reminded sometimes by peoplearound me hey, you're in the
pit about this, you need to getout.
(02:35):
And while I might grumble andsay, damn it, they're using my
strategies on me, I'd have tosay, yes, and you are exactly
correct.
Correct, I am, and I need torecognize it and I will, and I
need to get out of the pit.
There are lots of times as aprincipal, where really
difficult things were there andyou were.
(02:56):
You would get stuck in the pitabout it because you'd be
sleepless at night worryingabout things, and that was a
sure sign that it's time thatyou're doing something about it.
But really that's where thatpit concept came from.
We redrew it with ourcartoonist and then we turned it
into the learning pit as well,and the learning pit was really
(03:18):
about learning and really whatthe shop will do Sorry, I'm just
making it impossible for you tosound recording there and
really what we were trying to dowas ultimately get kids to push
themselves a little bit, getout of that safe zone, and the
(03:42):
learning pit was excellent touse that because we wanted kids
in a state of indecision, notjust comfortably knowing oh, I
know the answer's here, it'sokay.
We wanted them to be in thatpit of indecision where they're
going.
I'm really not sure what to dohere.
I actually have to think aboutthis and really what we were
trying to build there was thatconcept of pushing yourself a
(04:06):
bit harder, not just sitting andbeing comfortable.
Jolynne Rydz (04:09):
Yeah, and it really normalizes that, doesn't
it, that you have these emotionsthat go up and down and you
have these moments of indecision.
And I think that's so important, because I've noticed a lot of
the people that I work with orteams that I work with.
There's this false expectationthat everything should be happy
and great all the time, and youknow that's not really human.
(04:30):
Either something's going onunderneath that you're not
showing, or maybe you know youare in a good period, but things
are going to change at somepoint.
So I love that.
It just normalizes that factthat we're not always in this
great happy space.
And how do we then get out ofit?
Kelvin Bennetts (04:45):
I think as a manager, you need to um, if
you've got people, if you'reworking with people, you have
people working for.
You have to understand thatthey're not robots and for the
preceding 12, 14 hours orwhatever, they've been outside
of your workplace and who knowswhat's going on there for them.
(05:06):
I mean, we ended up with a teamof about 80 and it would be
fair to say that at any one time, just because of the age,
demographic, somebody's parentswere ill or unwell or needed
help.
We went through that quite abit, including me personally and
Christine personally with hermum, and I went through it with
my mum that you, you havetraumatic time at home and I'd
(05:31):
often work with people that werefacing that and saying you know
, work can actually be your safeplace, just away from all the
things that are going on.
For a moment, and try to putthat aside and normalise things
a little bit for yourself in theway your emotions are running
or feeling or you're chewingthings over, and just have that
(05:55):
mindset that I'm free from thatissue at the moment.
And that might sound a littlebit harsh.
I don't mean it to sound harsh,but there are a whole lot of
reasons why people could arriveat work in a position where they
felt quite vulnerable or quitelow and you needed to work with
your staff to be able to supportthem in that, in that process.
(06:17):
But then that also leads to thefact that you need to be, you
need to understand your staff,you need to have a relationship
with them.
You can't be just, uh, in youroffice with your door closed.
You need to be, you need tounderstand your staff, you need
to have a relationship with them.
You can't be just in youroffice with your door closed.
You need to be out on the frontline and and working with them
and taking the hits like theymight do.
And you know, sometimes you'rethe one that has to take the hit
(06:39):
for somebody because you'reprotecting them from something
that's coming towards them.
It might be downwards from thedepartment, it might be a parent
who was disappointed withsomething, but you needed to be
able to do that because youneeded to support the people who
worked for you and did theeveryday practice that you
(06:59):
couldn't be there for that.
You would hope that they'd justget all that right and that
started to then build thatenvironment where people needed
well.
First off, people need to feellike you've got their back and
then, once you start to buildthat, you can work on other
things as well.
I mean, we, we spend a lot oftime on staff well-being.
(07:20):
One of my philosophies is thatthe your staff are your greatest
asset.
It doesn't matter what you'vegot.
You could have the mostfabulous factory or school or
classroom or whatever, but ifyou don't have the right person
in there, that doesn't meananything.
So you need to be looking afteryour staff and we we'd run a
quite comprehensive staffwell-being program.
(07:42):
That included massages, wouldyou believe, during during
periods of high stress, untilthe department put a line
through being able to do that.
So we just went around that andbought two massage chairs and
put them in the staff room sothat people could be in there
for 15 or 20 minutes for a cyclein the massage chair, and they
(08:04):
were being used quite a lot.
We we looked at well.
We need to be well fed, so we'dbe making sure that there were
some walk-in, walk-out luncheswhere you didn't have to do
anything.
There was always crew in staffroom if you were hungry, because
sometimes you're busy as aparent and the last thing you
think of is your own lunch whileyou're getting your kids out
(08:25):
the door.
And we also used to have sometreat times where we'd just have
a coffee and cake day at thelocal cafe just near the school
at Tanks, because you need to beable to reward your staff for
the untold work that they do.
Teaching's an easy hit oh, youget all those holidays and rah,
(08:48):
rah, rah, but they forget thateach day staff don't walk out at
3.30.
If they're going out to go home, I can guarantee they're going
to do an hour or two work athome anyway.
It's just the nature of the job.
A lot of it's unpaid.
It comes back to choosing theperson that loves doing it,
(09:09):
who's not doing it, to be paidto do the job.
They're doing it because it's apassion and once you've got
passionate people in front ofkids, that rubs off and kids
hear your passion and feel itand they actually love it to
know.
One of the last things I did atthe school was challenge the
(09:31):
staff and I gave them a smallgrant each person to bring their
passion into the room.
Show the kids what your passionis.
So kids started to see allsorts of things.
I had one teacher brought in arecord player and records
because he loves collectingrecords.
We had another teacher thatbrought in Carlton gear because
he's a Carlton nuffie, which isunfortunate.
(09:54):
He's just slightly better thanCollingwood, but not by much.
We had other teachers that werebringing in basketball rings but
working that into their program, that you know you're achieving
your goals, go and shoot somegoals, type thing, and that
worked really well.
Or whereas a student might walkinto my office and there are
(10:16):
all these sitcom spanners thereand they'd look at me and go,
what are they?
And I'd say well, that's mypassion.
I collect them because I grewup playing with them, because my
dad was a motor mechanic, andso they start to see you more as
a human and more as a person.
Now.
One of the misnomers I had tooften undo for preps was that I
(10:38):
didn't actually sleep at theschool.
I didn't stay in my office allnight and come out in the
morning and then go back in atnight.
Jolynne Rydz (10:49):
Because you're always around.
Kelvin Bennetts (10:50):
Yeah, that's right.
They think that you live at theschool and they'd be shocked if
they'd see you out and about inthe community, out shopping.
They'd walk past, they'd seeyou in the supermarket aisle and
you'd see these eyes looking atyou like this you eat food.
Jolynne Rydz (11:11):
You go to the supermarket.
Kelvin Bennetts (11:13):
Yeah, Wow.
And they were even funnier,even though we never hid it,
that Christine and I weremarried.
So you know, for people thatdon't know, Christine taught it
here in bed as well, but theywere just kind of like oh, I
know the biggest secret in theworld.
(11:33):
They were very funny about it.
You'd just have a laugh withthem and say, yes.
Jolynne Rydz (11:41):
I think that's so important because in
organizations there's oftenpower dynamics between the
leaders and the employees andsometimes there's an us and them
dynamics.
Of being able to level thatplaying field and just go we're
all human is incrediblyempowering and connecting and I
think kind of links in with yourtalk earlier about just being
(12:03):
seen as people.
Kelvin Bennetts (12:05):
The power dynamics is very evident in a
school about adult versus child,and that was one of the things
we were trying to do with ourkids is to say we need to level
that playing field a little bit.
I'd encourage kids to talk tome if things weren't going well
in the classroom.
And lo and behold, some did,and I really commend them for
(12:25):
stepping up and saying, hey,things weren't going well in the
classroom and lo and behold,some did, and I really commend
them for stepping up and saying,hey, things aren't working well
here.
I don't know if the teacheractually likes me, and really
that was often a perceptionrather than a reality, but if
you dealt with that, then you'dsee things level out quite
quickly and then the child couldstart to learn better again.
Because one of the things nodoubt is if you don't think your
(12:47):
boss likes you, you won't do agood job and your mindset every
time you see that person is thatthey don't like me.
Now imagine you're a child in aclassroom and you don't think
the teacher likes you.
You're there for six and a halfhours every day.
So what is that doing to yourself-talk, what is it doing to
(13:11):
your mental health and what isit doing to your learning
disposition?
Are you ready to learn?
Hell, no, you know it me readyto learn, because you're telling
yourself you're the worstperson in the world and this
person doesn't like me, and soyou need to be able to deal with
those sorts of things.
And really we wereexceptionally fortunate that so
(13:31):
many of our kids arrived atschool ready to learn.
I've been in schools whereyou'd spend the first hour
actually getting them ready tolearn, so we were very fortunate
and I often say that to thecommunity, we're in a very lucky
spot that our kids come toschool ready to learn that they,
they, they feel like they'vegot someone who loves them.
(13:53):
This is one of our big picturethings, too, about building that
gratitude and gratefulness forwhat you have rather than what
you don't have, and so we didwork with the resilience project
and we had really really strongdata with that.
But really it was important tostart building that gratefulness
and gratitude about what youhave rather than what you don't
(14:15):
have.
And these are the most commonthings that will come up for
parents are phones, and it'llhappen when your child will
start to manipulate you like weall did with our parents.
It'll come in the form of wordsand it'll go like this mum,
(14:36):
I've only got the iPhone 12 andthe iPhone 13s come out and I'm
the only one who doesn't haveone, and it's so unfair and
you're just not nice because youwon't let me have one.
I usually wouldn't use wordsquite like that.
It'd be far more vicious thanthose words.
(14:58):
But really that was thatinability to be grateful that
you actually have a phone, overthat need to have the most
latest phone, and that's a verydestructive thing that you've
always got to have the latestthing.
It's kind of, and one of thethings I said in my final speech
to the school was that lifeisn't a competition about who
(15:20):
has the most toys.
Really, the mindset should beabout what good have you done
with what you have, and sothat's more important than
having the latest phone, havingthe fastest car, having the the
most fishing gear, having thebiggest collection or whatever.
(15:42):
It's really about what you'vedone with what you've got.
What have you done to helpthose around you?
What have you done to improvewhat needed to be improved?
What have you done to supportthose who need to be supported?
And a quiet thing that I wasreally proud of was that we
(16:04):
supported the Diamond ValleyFood Share for all the time I
was a principal.
We've given them probably tensof thousands of cans of food
over those 18 years becauseevery time we were out of
uniform we collected food.
But the reality was that everysingle can we'd give them would
be gone in a week or two becausethat helped others and that
(16:28):
started you started to see thatin built in our kids.
When they'd come forward withtheir initiated projects in the
leadership program to run an outof school day and out of the
uniform day that they'd say, oh,we'd like to raise money for
this, but we want to get thecans for the food share as well.
And so that's what it is to me,to others it isn't, to others
(16:52):
it's I've got the biggest boat.
Jolynne Rydz (16:55):
Yeah, and it's something I see a lot of in
terms of being able to switchfrom this entitlement, scarcity
mentality to no, I've got what Ineed and how can I best add
value from where I am now.
And I think it's such anempowering space to be in and to
have that from youth, I think,an incredible gift.
Kelvin Bennetts (17:17):
Don't sit there and think I've been saying I've
always had that belief becauseI haven't.
I've been on the other sidewhere I thought I had to have
this, I had to have that, and itwas a realisation that you
don't actually have to havethings, things you actually need
(17:40):
.
What you need the most in yourlife is the love and support and
the trust of one person.
That's what you need the mostin your life, because then
you've got somebody you canshare your disappointments and
joys with.
But you can also feel likesomeone in the world has my back
to me.
That's the most important thingis that you've got somebody who
has your back in the world yeah, and that's an incredible thing
(18:02):
to have.
Jolynne Rydz (18:04):
So, before I dive into our seven swift questions,
I I'm curious to know what doesthe next chapter look like for
you?
Is there still more you want todo in in a different lens?
What does it look like for you?
Is there still more you want todo in a different lens?
What does it look like for you?
Kelvin Bennetts (18:17):
Yeah, I'm still sorting that out.
I'm on leave for a year beforeI actually retire and there are
things that I'd really like todo, but I'm still undecided what
that looks like.
I still have a passion aboutwhat schools can look like and
(18:38):
what you can do within a schooland exploring some possibilities
about what that might look likein a construction sense or a
consultancy sense.
But then, who knows, I mightfind another passion that I
actually want to do, or Icoached for a long time.
I don't know if I want to goback to that, but I'm still
(19:00):
maybe open to doing somethinglike that again.
It depends as you get a bitolder, you get a bit more picky
about what you want to do andyou're actually doing it because
you want to do it rather thanyou have to do it.
So I doubt very much that it'llbe back.
Well, no, I'm 100% sure it'snot back.
(19:21):
As a principal of a school, Ihave had some offers of doing
some mentoring to people andwe'll look at that.
At the moment, I'm justenjoying being able to do
whatever I want.
At the moment, when I want to.
Um, there's a job list that'sclearly mounting up about what
(19:42):
needs to be done at home and inother places well, you've got
all these sitcom tools rightyeah
I don't seem to be, um, I don'tseem to be getting much off that
list at the minute.
I'm trying, but there's also asense of doing something that
I've probably not done before,and that's just giving yourself
(20:05):
time to recover from things andto refresh.
You tend to burn yourself outand you tend to just push, and
for some reason on Facebook I'mgetting these feeds of these
jumpers that says it's aBennett's thing, but I don't
stop when I'm tired, I stop whenit's done and I'm thinking well
(20:30):
, that kind of does sum it up,because I would spend weekends
at school doing things andmaking sure things were right.
In the end, I said to myselfI've got to stop doing that and
have other things as well, andat that time the football
coaching was really good becauseit forced me away from that.
It was completely nuts forthose three hours while you were
(20:52):
coaching, but it was adifferent sort of crazy to what
being a principal is, butbasically the same.
You were trying to predict thefuture and put things in place
now so that those things didn'thappen, and so really, that's
what it was the same.
Jolynne Rydz (21:10):
Yeah, so transferable and so meaningful.
So let's bring us into theSwift 7 questions, so no need to
overthink them.
They're just kind of quickquestions that you can answer to
give us a bit more insight intoyou and the way you think.
So the first question is inyour view, what are three words
to describe an ideal leader?
Kelvin Bennetts (21:32):
I think you have to be resilient, you need
to be adaptable and you need tobe independent in your thinking.
So, yes, you'll havedisappointment.
Show that you can absorb that.
That's where that adaptabilitycomes in.
You need to be sometimes rollwith the punches and what might
be perfect world in yourthinking is not how you can get
(21:52):
it in the real world.
But you might be able to get itclose to that and you need to
be adaptable in the way you'regoing about that.
And then you need to have somesort of independence in your
thinking and not reliant onothers thinking, certainly be
influenced by it.
One of the things I'd alwayssay is that learn from others.
Sometimes you might dismisswhat they're doing totally,
(22:15):
sometimes you might take partsof it and rework it and
sometimes you might think, well,that's just perfect the way it
is.
But they'd be three things I'dsay.
Jolynne Rydz (22:23):
Beautiful and number two, so fill in the blank
.
Magnetic authenticity is.
.
.
Kelvin Bennetts (22:30):
Okay So this is interesting, but I
think it's just you've got to beyourself, eg, you're realistic,
you can't be fake.
You've got to have beliefs, youneed to be visionary and you
have to believe in them, but youalso need to be able to express
why you believe in those things.
(22:50):
You need to have integrity inyour leadership, be honest and I
think you need to be a problemsolver, so you're a lateral
thinker as well.
Jolynne Rydz (23:00):
Wonderful.
So number three when you noticeyourself trying to fit in,
what's the first thing that youdo?
Kelvin Bennetts (23:07):
I think to myself I'm trying to fit in here
and I don't know if I do.
It is something that I said inmy closing speech to Yarinbet.
That was the first place I'dever felt like I fitted in, and
that's just a reality.
That's just a personal feeling,but what I try to do is just
(23:29):
try to find a comfortable spacewhere you're talking with
somebody and just try to blendinto some conversation and try
to get comfortable with what'sgoing on and try to understand a
little bit of what's happening.
That sort of stuff.
Believe it or not, I'm not aperson who's going to walk into
a party and say hey, everybody,I'm here.
I'm much quieter than that,although the job demanded me to
(23:52):
be at the front often andrunning assemblies and things
like that, which I loved doing,and I particularly loved if
there was a question and answertime.
I loved that sort of challengeas well.
But in a party sense, I'm morelikely to be the quieter one
rather than the one that'sleading the whole thing, because
I don't mind others being thecentre of attention.
(24:14):
I don't really like myselfbeing the centre of attention.
I don't really like myselfbeing the centre of attention.
So I did find that finalassembly very challenging in
that sense.
Jolynne Rydz (24:26):
Yeah, definitely.
And so number four what songgets you really pumped?
Kelvin Bennetts (24:33):
Sometimes I'd listen to music in the morning
in my office and people would gopast and say, well, what's
going on here?
But the song that I wouldalways my go-to song would be
Psycho by Muse.
And if you ever want to go intotheir great live band, go and
see them.
Jolynne Rydz (24:51):
Okay, good to know I'd go again if they were here.
Kelvin Bennetts (24:54):
Yeah, yeah, okay, number five, which is
what's the most daring thingyou've ever done the most daring
thing I've ever done is um askchristina, my wife, my now wife.
Jolynne Rydz (25:06):
That's beautiful number six is do you have a
favorite quote or mantra thatyou live by?
Kelvin Bennetts (25:11):
I do, um, it's from a, a coach in the nfl um,
an ex-coach of the San Francisco49ers who I follow.
His name was Bill Walsh.
His mantra was that, no matterwho, if it was your turn to take
the hit, you took the hit, evenif you were the high play
quarterback on millions ofdollars a year.
(25:32):
If you needed to do that tomake the play successful or make
something successful, you'd doit, and so I took that into the
way that I'd be the principal.
If it was my turn to protectsomebody, or I needed to take
the hit for something, or if itwas my fault, I'd put my hand up
and say, well, I messed upthere, I'll do better.
And so that was something thatI learnt quite early on and
(25:58):
always tried to hold to that.
Jolynne Rydz (26:01):
Thank you, and so our last question is what's one
small thing that brings youincredible joy?
Kelvin Bennetts (26:07):
Just at the moment it's actually completing
any building projects I'm doingat home.
Yes, getting them off the list,trying to From a teaching sense.
Often it was just somebodywould be at my door, they'd
slide a note under my door orthey'd say something about
(26:30):
something that you'd beenworking on or done for them, and
I'd think to myself gee, thattook real guts for a
seven-year-old to come and saythank you or write a letter or
something like that.
Because I remember back to whenI was in primary school.
I'd tippy-toe past theprincipal's office because I was
(26:51):
so scared of them that I'dnearly be pooping my pants as I
was walking past the door,mainly because they hit me.
But the thing is that I alwayslooked at that and thought well,
that means that we're reallymaking some impact with somebody
if they're coming up andthey're saying thank you, or I
appreciate this, or a note thatthey'd written you, and I'd
(27:12):
always take time to try andwrite back see if somebody did
that because it was verymeaningful for them to do that
in the first place.
Jolynne Rydz (27:22):
Wonderful Well, this has been such an
enlightening conversation,Calvin.
I really do appreciate yourgenerosity and time.
If people want to connect withyou, where can they find you?
Kelvin Bennetts (27:33):
Well, nowhere really.
Um, I am on facebook but it'svery private and I only have
that for messenger for footballcoaching.
But, um, you can email me.
I have an email addressavailable if somebody wanted to
write to me to ask for things,and just provide me with some
contact details and I'll makecontact back, and so my email
(27:55):
address to use iskelvinbennetts52@ gmail.
com.
Jolynne Rydz (28:01):
Wonderful.
Well, thank you Once again.
It's been wonderful, and I hopeyou have a wonderful day.
Thanks for joining us.
Kelvin Bennetts (28:08):
Well, thank you .
I appreciate being invited.
It's been great to speak withyou.
Jolynne Rydz (28:13):
If you've just listened to the two parts of
this episode, well done.
I hope you've enjoyed it andthere's so many great things in
there that is so transferablebeyond education.
I hope you take that messageaway.
One of the key things, I thinkwas the pit and that ability to
move through change.
There are so many organizationsdealing with an incredible
(28:36):
amount of change currently andwe get stuck thinking about how
to move our people throughchange and so many people find
resistance.
And I think part of it is thatpersonal awareness and toolkit
of how to move yourself throughchange.
And that's something that Ilove working with teams on.
And I also love the concept ofyour.
(29:00):
People are not robots and Ithink sometimes with the
pressure of getting results, ofmeeting targets, that we can
treat people like robots Whetheror not that's on purpose, it's
probably unconscious, but whenthat happens, that's when we can
start to reach trust andrespect and those social
contracts that people rely on tofeel safe in the workplace.
(29:24):
And the third thing I reallyloved about this conversation,
out of so many things, is thatability to equal the power
dynamic, because inorganizations, again, there are
so many power dynamics at playand if we're not conscious of
how that can modify people'sbehavior, modify what you hear
and see in the organization and,at its worst, stop you from
(29:48):
seeing what's actuallypreventing the organization from
doing great work and gettinggreat results, because people
are too scared to be open aboutthe challenges.
That's when being able to levelthe power dynamic and create
that environment and thatculture where you can have those
open conversations, regardlessof your title or who you are in
(30:08):
the organization, that's soincredibly powerful.
So, once again, I trust you'veenjoyed that and reach out in
the comments.
Find me on LinkedIn if you wantto discuss the conversation
further.
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