October 6, 2025 • 42 mins
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Change doesn’t fail because the plan was weak; it fails because people didn’t believe, didn’t feel safe, or didn’t see themselves in the outcome. We sit down with communications strategist Lana North to explore how leaders can make transformation stick by swapping one-way announcements for human, two-way dialogue that creates ownership. From the first awkward moment of telling your team “something’s changing” to the steady work of involving them in shaping the path, Lana shares the practical moves that turn resistors into advocates and initiatives into embedded behaviours.
We dig into the mechanics of sustainable change (benefits realised long after the project team has packed up) and why authenticity is the quiet lever that makes messages land. Lana breaks down change fatigue with rare clarity, separating saturation (too much at once) from overwhelm (too much for too long), and explains how these forces collide to create a dead zone where nothing sticks. Her prescription is candid and actionable: map the full change load, create psychological safety for honest signals, and have the mature portfolio conversation that pauses, sequences, or stops work so people can succeed. Along the way, we talk about mindset before method, the power of a leader’s genuine voice, and a simple shift "communicate to involve, not to tell" that can transform engagement overnight.
If you’re leading through uncertainty and want change that lasts, this conversation offers clear next steps and the confidence to act.
Remember to subscribe for more practical leadership insights, share this with a colleague who’s navigating transformation, and leave a review with the one shift you’ll try this week. The more we share, the more we can make a ripple of impact.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
SPEAKER_02 (00:36):
We're about to meet Lana North, a communications pro
with over two decades ofexperience helping leaders
navigate that messy middle ofchange.
From major transformationprograms in Europe and Australia
to founding the communicationexchange, Lana knows just how
hard it can be to lead whenyou're still figuring it all out
(00:56):
for yourself.
Now she works with leadershipteams and individuals to build
practical, human-centeredcommunication strategies that
actually stick, helping leadersguide their people through
uncertainty with more confidenceand clarity.
When she's not leading change,Lana's wrangling three kids,
Labrador and the occasionalfence jumping cow.
(01:19):
Let's welcome Lana into thepodcast.
Welcome on in, Lana.
So great to have you here.
Thanks for having me, Jolene.
Great to be here.
We've been looking forward tothis for a while, haven't we?
Yeah, we have.
It's been building for a bit.
So I'd love for you to start offby telling us a little bit about
the communication exchange andhow that came to be.
SPEAKER_00 (01:36):
Yeah, so the communication exchange is born
from 20 years of my corporatecommunications experience
working across a whole range ofindustries and seeing some of
the same challenges come upagain and again with the work I
do with leaders across alllevels of leadership.
So what I've found is thatpeople really struggle when
(01:57):
they're leading their teamthrough change and they struggle
with the communication part ofthat and more so the team
engagement element of that.
And so I've started thecommunication exchange to really
focus on helping professionalleaders to drive sustainable
change by mastering theircommunication and their
engagement skills.
SPEAKER_02 (02:17):
Yeah, amazing.
And it's so needed right now.
I'm you've you've mentionedsustainable change a couple of
times.
Can you unpack what thatactually means?
SPEAKER_00 (02:26):
Yeah, absolutely.
I think when we think aboutchange, we often can go into
down the path of thinking about,you know, one change and then
another change and them beingquite individual circumstances
that happen within anorganization or a workplace.
When we change things around andthink about sustainable change,
(02:48):
it's really about thinking howdo we make this change stick for
the long term?
So, what do we need to do sothat in 12 months' time, two
years' time, and beyond, we'veactually realized the benefits
of the change that we weresetting out to make.
And those changes have stuck.
So we find ourselves down thepath where we have progressed
(03:11):
and not back to square one,where we're thinking, what went
wrong and why are we staringdown the barrel of the same
problems that we were when we'vedone all this change work?
And so for me, sustainablechange is really about making
sure that the change that we setout to achieve has really stuck,
which means that the benefitshave been delivered well into
(03:34):
the future and not after achange program team has
disappeared and moved on to thenext thing.
SPEAKER_02 (03:39):
100%.
And I I guess I am the personwho helps the leaders in terms
of their mindset and theirperformance and that ongoing
after the change has comethrough, but also through the
change.
And I think what's really keyhere is that it's about the
change really being embeddedwhere people own it, right?
SPEAKER_00 (03:57):
Exactly.
100%.
And you would see it in yourwork as well, as you said.
Really making sure that peoplefeel that it becomes a part of
their day-to-day and that it'snot a program or an initiative
or something that happened thatwas uh one-off, and then we've
just got to get through this andthen we can get back to the way
things were.
(04:17):
That's absolutely not the waythat we want to approach it.
If we do that, then we end uprunning the risk of being back
where we were, having spent awhole lot of money to end up
back at square one.
But it really is about seeinghow leaders can lead themselves
through the change as much asleading their team through the
change.
And you would see that a lot inyour work as well.
(04:39):
Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (04:40):
It's definitely about self and then others.
And then also, I think from whatI've seen, there's a lot of
people that are resistant tochange, what we'll call
resistant.
And I think when those changeskeep coming and coming and
coming, and people don't see thebenefits, of course they're
gonna be cynical, right?
If this change is real thistime.
SPEAKER_00 (04:58):
Yeah, yeah.
Absolutely.
Absolutely.
Change resistance is one ofthose things that we really do
look at and really need to takea very critical lens over from
the very beginning when we'reworking with, you know, either a
team or with an individualleader to find out what's going
on for their team.
And change resistance, it's veryeasy to say that, you know,
(05:20):
people, you know, they're justnot on board, or I've told
people and they're not comingalong with it, and it's just not
landing.
I'm not sure why.
And change resistance isactually innate to us as human
beings.
We like things the way they are,and we really don't want to move
things because it meansexperiencing some kind of
(05:41):
discomfort, having to change ourmindset, having to adapt to the
way things always were, and thatcan be quite challenging for
people.
And some of the things that feedinto that are the volume of
change that teams go through.
And we know that, you know, atthe moment, the only constants
(06:02):
that people have in theirworkplaces and well, lives in
general, is change.
So, how do we do what we can tominimize that resistance or
acknowledge it and bring peoplealong with the change as we make
it?
SPEAKER_02 (06:18):
Yeah, and I find when you can flip someone from
the change resistor to thechange champion, like that's
phenomenal, isn't it?
Magic.
SPEAKER_00 (06:26):
Yeah.
That that's where the magichappens.
And that's absolutely the goldstar of what we what we aim for
in any any change engagementwhen we can flip somebody from
being a resistor of changethrough to an advocate for the
change.
And really a lot of work needsto go into that.
But the core element of it isbringing people along for the
(06:48):
journey so that in the end,people don't feel like change
has been done to them, uh, andtherefore they feel a victim of
it or they feel uh that theyweren't engaged at all.
Rather, we want people to feelthat change has been done with
them, and so they actually hadsome kind of involvement in the
change and being able toparticipate in it so they can
(07:09):
help to create the outcomes.
SPEAKER_02 (07:11):
Yeah, 100%.
I so agree with everything thatyou're saying.
And so there's so much changegoing on in the world right now,
and I think it's happeningfaster and faster and faster.
So help us understand what isit.
There's so many ways that we canlead change.
What is it about communicationspecifically that helps people
to lead and manage change well?
SPEAKER_00 (07:31):
Yeah.
Great question.
Really, the thing that helpspeople to lead and manage change
well when it comes tocommunication is their
authenticity.
And we have leaders who arenatural extroverts, leaders who
are natural introverts, and theyhave very, very different
styles, and helping them to haveauthenticity in the way that
(07:52):
they communicate and feelingthat they can really own the
message and not only have amessage to deliver, but a
conversation to start withpeople, and making it two-way is
where we really get a lot oftraction in making change stick,
having that two-way dialogue sothat it's not just one way for
(08:13):
people and people have anopportunity to ask their
questions, to give theirsuggestions.
That's really where we can makebig change happen.
SPEAKER_02 (08:23):
Yeah.
And how often have you seen whenyou come in and work with an
organization, peoplebroadcasting their communication
rather than that true two-waycommunication?
SPEAKER_00 (08:33):
Oh, it happens all the time.
Yeah.
And what's the impact?
The impact is people who areusually resistant to change and
feeling that level ofdisengagement.
And I think, you know, comingback to that point of there is
so much change happening in theworld at large at the moment,
that translates into workplaces.
(08:53):
And workplaces are so noisyright now.
There are so many competingpriorities that are out there
asking teams and asking leadersfor their attention.
And so when you throw anotherthing into the mix and we're
just broadcasting, and we say,Yes, we did the comms check.
(09:19):
That's not that's not going tonot a check, not going to stick.
We have to do much, much morethan do a broadcast.
One and done is not a way tocommunicate.
Doing the comms is notcommunicating effectively.
We really need to take the timefrom early in the process, even
(09:42):
when we don't have all of theanswers, to bring people along,
explain the context, gettingpeople to understand how it will
affect them in their day-to-day,so that when it comes time to
actually make the change actionand ask people to change their
behavior and what they're doing,they un already understand why.
(10:05):
They already understand how it'sgoing to impact them.
And they feel less afraid of itbecause they've had a chance to
input into what that looks like.
SPEAKER_02 (10:14):
Yeah, 100%.
And I'm so glad you brought thatup because I I think a lot of
what I see and why so I work inthe transforming the individual,
right?
And that fear gets people toeither camp down and they they
fight flight flight or free.
SPEAKER_01 (10:29):
No, flight or flight.
Flight or fright.
There's three of them.
Fight, flight, freeze.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (10:36):
Yeah.
So I'm almost melting that andgiving that the sense of safety
that you'll be okay through thischange.
Exactly.
SPEAKER_00 (10:44):
I think that that's the key word there.
You've hit the nail on the headis safety.
So creating a safe place forpeople to have their
uncertainty, to be able to talkabout it and put it on the
table.
Because you can only workthrough that when you know what
it is that somebody'sexperiencing and what they're
(11:06):
worried about.
And if that is hidden and peopleare too afraid to talk about it,
then you can't actually addressit.
So the problems that you knowabout are the ones you can do
something about.
If you don't know about them,then they will hide, you know,
underneath everything thatyou're trying to do and start to
(11:27):
pick away at it, but you won'teven know that it's happening.
And so that's where you end upin situations where you'll
think, well, I I told people andthey said yes, but then nothing
happened.
And so where did that disconnectcome from?
And often it comes from a placeof not having a safe place to
(11:47):
bring up any fears oruncertainty.
And so creating that place ofsafety is really important from
the outset.
SPEAKER_02 (11:54):
So we've talked about communication and change
more broadly.
I'd love to understand what yousee leaders struggle with most
when it comes to communicationand engaging their teams.
SPEAKER_00 (12:06):
Yeah, it's a great question.
And leaders initially struggleor have a bit of a challenge
with telling their team aboutthe change.
So that first moment where theyneed to tell their team that
something is going to change,and that can cause a lot of
uncertainty.
And that's where we really workvery closely on equipping them
(12:27):
with the story, that compellingstory of why there's a need for
change.
And then that's closely followedby a fear from the leaders of
I'm not sure how to involve myteam in doing this.
And I feel very vulnerable ifI'm going to open up part of
this change to my team or toother people, other stakeholders
(12:49):
that I have within theorganization, or sometimes
outside, to lose control of whatsome part of the change might
look like.
And it often comes from theuncertainty themselves in not
knowing all the answers.
But when people step into thatdiscomfort of not knowing and
(13:11):
letting go of some of thecontrol of the end result of
what the change will look liketo let their people in, that's
when magic can happen.
Because that's when you givepeople, you show them trust,
that they have an opportunity tocontribute and you acknowledge
that they have expertise that isreally valuable to you and that
(13:33):
you want to seek that.
And you also give them anopportunity to create part of
the change.
And when you do that, peoplesuddenly feel like they have
ownership of it.
And we know that when peoplefeel like they have owned
something, then they willabsolutely go in to defend it
(13:54):
and to make sure that they dotheir part to see it succeed.
So that part of finding someownership somewhere in the
change process is really, reallyimportant to the ultimate
success of it.
Because then the people who youare dependent on to implement
when you get to that point havealready been able to see how
(14:14):
their input has shaped what thatfinal outcome is.
SPEAKER_02 (14:18):
Yeah, that ownership is so, so key.
I think it yeah, it helps helpstake it from the it's being done
to me to I I'm now part of thisand I can actually come along
willingly, right?
SPEAKER_00 (14:29):
Absolutely.
Yeah.
That whole change isn't beingdone to me, change is being done
with me.
Critical.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (14:37):
Now you touched on vulnerability there, and I
wanted to explore in terms ofauthenticity.
So being that magneticauthenticity kind of leader
where people are just drawn toyou and drawn to be part of the
change.
What role do you thinkauthenticity plays in leading
change?
SPEAKER_00 (14:55):
Oh, it is absolutely one of the key success factors
for any change.
And people know when you're notbeing yourself.
And if they get a sense that youdon't believe in the change that
you're, you know, asking them tobe part of, then there's no way
(15:15):
that you will get your team tocome along with you.
So finding your own unique voiceand communication style, whether
it comes to change or any kindof leadership communication, is
absolutely essential.
Because when you do that, thenpeople know when you're genuine,
when you're being yourself, youfeel much more authentic about
(15:38):
it, and therefore other peoplebelieve you, and that's where
the credibility comes from inwhat you're doing.
I mean, I'm sure you would seeit in your work all the time.
We have a world that we tend tothink is built for extroverts,
and then when we haveintroverted leaders, they have a
very different style.
Now it can be really, reallyeffective as long as we allow
(16:00):
that to come out and for peopleto own their own genuine voice.
And so that's part of the workthat I do once we've created the
uh change story with people, isto help them work through how
they're going to share it in away that feels genuine for them
and has a great deal of impactso that people believe them,
(16:21):
know that it's come from them,and therefore set the change up
for success.
SPEAKER_02 (16:26):
Yeah, amazing.
And there's one thing that I seea lot of, which is uh change
fatigue.
And some people might notunderstand what that means
necessarily.
Could you tell us a little bitabout that and and what do you
do about it?
SPEAKER_00 (16:39):
Yeah, it's it's really, really critical to look
at that.
Change fatigue is is very realand it's it's rife at the
moment.
And change fatigue, uh there area couple of things that really
feed into change fatigue andwhat makes that up.
So, on the one hand, you've gotchange saturation, and that's
(17:04):
when there is a huge amount ofchange that's all hitting at the
same time.
And so people just not sure whatthey should be focusing on,
where the priorities are, andthat's quite confused for
people, and they just, you know,don't know where to begin.
And then on the other hand, youhave change overwhelm, and
(17:26):
that's where change has justbeen a constant for people all
the time, and it's been ongoingfor a long period of time.
And so you'll have change that'sbeen rolling out consistently
for a long period of time, andthen you have change saturation
where you've got a whole load ofdifferent change initiatives
that are all hitting at the sametime.
(17:47):
And when those things collide,that's where change fatigue
really comes in.
And we could call it somethingelse, we could call it the dead
zone for change because nochange is happening, not well
anyway, and not effectively, andnot in a sustainable way when
our teams are working in thechange dead zone.
(18:09):
Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (18:10):
I love how you articulated that with the the
different components of it.
That's it's so true.
And what I do often is I'msupporting the leader that's
that's hitting that dead zoneand helping them to be
sustainable in who they are andtheir approach and their impact
as well.
Yeah.
So what are some of the thingsthat you see when you're working
with leaders through this?
(18:32):
One I think is maybe they'vebeen in the pot so long that
they they don't realize thatthat's where they are, that
they're in the dead zone.
They almost it's become the normto deal with that amount of
change.
And there's almost a hesitancyto to pause the ship and say,
well, actually, out of all ofthese changes, which is most
(18:53):
critical?
Are we continuing a change thatmaybe doesn't need to be
continued anymore?
So we can give people somebreathing space and really
recognizing how all of that'simpacting not only themselves
but their team as well from awell-being perspective.
Yeah.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (19:10):
Absolutely.
Absolutely.
I think that's really, reallycritical.
I was reminds me of a time whereI was working in-house within a
large logistics supply chainorganization, and we knew that
change fatigue, you know, washappening in different pockets
of the business.
And so we were sitting aroundthe table with the executive
(19:31):
team and just presented the hugegamut of change that was
happening and the things thatwere happening within both the
operational areas of thebusiness and the corporate
functions, and then all of thesupport functions that went
along with it.
And then we went to the point oflooking at all the change that
was impacting our customers aswell.
(19:52):
And when we put all of that onthe table, it forced a bit of
recalibration because beforethat, the conversation had been,
oh, but the change program thatI'm sponsoring is only affecting
this little area.
And well, the one that I'msponsoring is only affecting
this little area over here.
But when you added them all uptogether and you could see where
(20:14):
they were crossing over and thesame teams that were having to
deal with them all, it was very,very confronting.
And all of a sudden, it became aconversation about that
well-being and about values andwhat we as leaders have as a
responsibility to look after ourpeople and as well as looking
after our people and theirwell-being through it,
(20:37):
recognizing that we weren'tgoing to achieve the commercial
outcomes we were after becausepeople were exhausted and it
wasn't going to be done properlybecause we didn't have the
bandwidth.
And so then we entered thenegotiation stage of what do we
pause and what do we stop andwhat do we keep doing, what are
dependencies?
And that was, you know, veryrobust.
(20:58):
And there were difficultconversations that had to be had
from that, but we were able topause things or say, that one is
actually dependent on this one.
So it needs to slow down so thatwe give both things a chance of
success.
And it does take a level ofmaturity to be able to come to
that conversation and beprepared to give up some time or
(21:18):
some scope for the greateroutcome of looking after your
people and making sure yourchange is going to be
sustainable.
SPEAKER_02 (21:25):
Yeah.
And maybe even that investmentbias is in you've put all this
energy, resourcing, andinvestment into a change, and
then to abandon it takes a lotof courage to actually go
nowhere worse off progressingthan we are.
SPEAKER_00 (21:38):
Absolutely.
There is a huge amount of honorin putting your hand up and
saying this program that I'mheavily invested in and I really
want to see go forward isactually the not the best thing
for our organization at themoment.
Huge amount of honour in beingable to put your hand up and
say, we need to pause or we needto stop or we need to pivot.
SPEAKER_02 (22:02):
Yeah, and I think that's where it links into that
authenticity and that confidencein self that no, this is the
right thing for the greatergood.
Yep.
Rather than trying to plowforward.
SPEAKER_00 (22:13):
Absolutely.
Absolutely.
The the easy thing is to keepgoing because you said you were
going to, rather than stoppinghaving the conversation to say
it's important, but it's not asimportant at the moment as some
of the other things that arehappening.
Yeah.
I love this conversation.
We just need to make that thenorm.
That's all.
We'll get there.
SPEAKER_02 (22:34):
So with the work that you do, Lana, I imagine
you're working with both mindsetand skillset.
Can you tell us a little bitabout how you you changed two of
those things?
SPEAKER_00 (22:45):
Yeah, absolutely.
So mindset is absolutely the thefirst place to begin, and you'd
be familiar with this from yourwork as well, I'm sure, Jolene.
Giving people the confidence inthemselves and their own ability
to communicate and to engage isone thing, and that's very much
(23:07):
the skill set side of things.
The mindset side of thingsreally is the beginning of the
work that we do because you canonly lead your team and other
people through change when youcan lead yourself through
change.
And so there's a bit of workthat needs to be done up front
to really do a self-check-in andthink how invested am I in the
(23:34):
change program that we'rerolling out, or the change that
we're making, whatever it mightbe, and really ensuring that the
person is absolutely set up forsuccess in doing that with the
way they think about the changeas it's coming down the path,
the way that they are preparedto lead themselves into
(23:58):
uncertain territories as well,and have some honest
conversations with themselvesaround what might be hard, what
might be uncomfortable.
Because only when they have beenable to lean into that, then can
we move on to how are we goingto communicate this to other
people?
Because we know that from acommunication effectiveness
(24:21):
point of view, the things thatmake communication effective and
really make it land for people,firstly, who you are.
So some people will have thatfrom the roles that they're in
and the titles that they hold,but more than that, it's how
believable they are to theirpeople.
(24:43):
The second part is what you say,and I work with people to work
through the narrative and makingsure it makes sense and all of
that, but that's only a tinypart of what makes a
communication really effective.
Who you are and what you say areactually the least important in
(25:05):
having people believe yourmessage and come along with it.
The most important part is howyou deliver the communication,
and this is the part that peoplewill sometimes struggle with.
And so that work around reallyknowing yourself and knowing
your communication style and theway that is genuine for you is
(25:27):
absolutely critical to do as anupfront piece.
And that's linked to the mindsetand leading yourself through
change and being able to knowyourself, know your
communication style, becauseonly then can you really
intentionally set out tocommunicate to your team with
impact in a way that's going tofeel right for you, which will
(25:47):
make your message land and beeffective and have people really
take it on board.
SPEAKER_02 (25:52):
Yeah.
So it's the who you are, youryour own mindset, and then the
how you actually deliver thechange, all of that in the
world.
Absolutely.
unknown (25:59):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (25:59):
And so have you ever come across someone who maybe
was struggling with that bit orthe the communication just
wasn't landing and you've you'vemanaged to turn that around?
SPEAKER_00 (26:08):
Yeah, absolutely.
So, I mean, I've worked incommunication roles internally
as business partner to peoplewho are leading change for a
very long time.
And there was one person thatreally sticks out as being, you
know, coming from a very goodplace of wanting to be the best
(26:29):
communicator they could be, butthey thought about it from a
very analytical space of how doI get this across and what are
the things that I have to do.
And if I do these things, tick,tick, tick, then I will have got
my message across and been avery effective communicator.
(26:50):
And really, the way theconversation started was we're
we're taking my team throughthese changes.
Can you help me to put the commstogether so that then I can
stand up and really know that Ihaven't missed anything, that
I've been very thorough andshared everything that I needed
to do?
And said, Well, I can help youwith that, of course.
(27:14):
But first we need to know whatis it that's really important to
your people, and what is itthat's important for you to get
across?
And how do you feel reallygenuine in getting up and you
know, talking to a group ofpeople, which is not your
comfort zone and is notsomething that you do on a daily
(27:34):
basis.
And they're a bit taken abackbecause they said, Well, I just
want you to really give me thetalking notes, and then I'll
just stand up and you know,talk, talk to people.
Said, Well, that's one way toapproach it, but it's not a very
effective way.
And that made them really sit upand take notes.
So, well, what but why?
Like, because we've thoughtabout it all, it all makes
(27:55):
sense, we have a rational planfor how we're going to do it,
and from an analytical point ofview, it did make sense.
All the all the pieces werethere, but there was no
connection in it.
And so when we sat down and Isaid, Well, tell me what is it
about your people and this teamthat they're going to be most
(28:18):
worried about with the change?
And we talked about that.
And then tell me what else havethey got going on for them in
their you know, work world atthe moment.
Okay, tell me about that.
And then tell me why is thisparticular change necessary now
and how is it going to impactthem?
(28:40):
Okay, tell me about this.
Oh, this is a lot more involved,Lana, than what I thought it was
going to be.
I thought that there were justsome messages that I would just
stand up and share.
Well, again, that's one way ofdoing it.
But if you really want people totake on board what it is that
you're doing, you need toconnect with them on a human
level.
And you can do that.
(29:01):
You do that all the time.
You're just more comfortable inan analytical sense.
But you have a team that lovesworking for you.
And so it's about tapping intothat and why do they love
working for you?
What is it that you bring everyday that you also then need to
apply to telling them about thischange that you're doing?
(29:22):
And then he really sat back andthought about it and was able to
identify his personalcharacteristics that he bring
every every day when he walksinto the team and how he shows
up.
And then when we were able toapply that to the messages and
the change as we were, you know,talking about how do we share
the message, that's when themagic started to happen.
(29:44):
And then when he was able tostand up in front of people, it
was a completely differentconversation.
In fact, it was actually aconversation rather than a
presentation and inviting peopleto share the part that they were
worried about or their thoughtsabout it.
And so then that became really,really powerful.
SPEAKER_02 (30:01):
That's so cool.
Because I've I've worked with alot of people that have that
more analytical mind over thepeople focused mind, and it does
take time and effort to get themto realise that no, the the
people, that connection side ofthem is what is like the cherry
on top that brings people acrossthe line, right?
Yeah, just the just the processalone is not enough.
(30:22):
You need both, and I love thatyou you're able to like that's
kind of what I like I love doingis like unpacking that for
people and getting them to go,oh wow, because you can apply it
beyond change.
Oh, absolutely to everythingthat they're doing as a leader,
yeah.
Exactly.
Like both.
SPEAKER_00 (30:35):
Moments everywhere.
SPEAKER_02 (30:39):
So we've gone so many different ways, which I
love.
This is the kind of conversationthat I love having.
Could you tell us, Lana, forpeople listening, what's one
small shift that they could maketo really amp up their
engagement as they're leading achange?
SPEAKER_00 (30:53):
Absolutely.
So there's one mindset shiftthat people can take when
they're looking to start leadingtheir team through change, and
that's around their mindsettowards communication.
And if people can look atcommunication as a way of
(31:13):
involving people and not tellingpeople, then that is the biggest
shift that they can make.
So have a mindset of communicateto involve, not to tell.
Communicate to involve, not totell.
And then people will really havethat feeling that change is
(31:36):
being done with them and not tothem.
And that's a really powerfulshift that you can make if
there's one thing that you do.
SPEAKER_02 (31:45):
Yeah, it's almost and it's probably easier, right?
So instead of going, I need todo this big presentation about
change, just having aconversation with you people.
SPEAKER_00 (31:53):
Exactly.
Let's just make it two-way.
Let's have a chat about it.
Yeah, there's a lot that has togo into it, but it's also not
one and done.
We don't communicate about thechange once and think, well, I
told everybody, why isn'tanything happening?
No, it's a process and it needsto be reiterated again, and we
need to have different elementsof the conversation so that
(32:16):
we're really exploring it andgiving people the chance to
involve themselves in it.
SPEAKER_02 (32:21):
Yeah, amazing.
And what is one thing that youwish Lana people knew about
leading change?
SPEAKER_00 (32:31):
The thing about leading change that I wish
people knew was that it's notabout budget, it's not about
scope, it's not about process.
All those things are importantand they make up part of it.
But the thing that will makeyour change a success or not is
(32:58):
people.
Because you're dependent onpeople to make the change
happen.
And if people decide that theyare out and they're not
interested, then it doesn'tmatter how good your solution
is, how on time your Gantt chartis, how you know well you're
doing on delivering to budget,if people decide that they don't
(33:21):
want to make the change and theyresist it, then it won't happen.
And so thinking about change andany program that you roll out as
being about people is the onething that can really help to
set you up for success.
SPEAKER_02 (33:39):
Yeah, you're speaking my language.
So you we've talked a lot today,Lana, about all of these amazing
aspects to change.
And where can people go to findout more if they'd like to
connect with you?
SPEAKER_00 (33:52):
Yeah, absolutely.
Love to connect with people whoare leading their team through
change, thinking about change,designing change.
And the best place to find me isLinkedIn.
So Lana North on LinkedIn.
Also look up thecommunicationexchange.com and
reach out and I'd love to have achat with you as well.
(34:13):
So don't be shy.
Let me know what it is thatyou're working on, any questions
that you've got or or thingsthat you're pondering about your
communication, engagement, howto bring your team along for the
ride, uh, let me know.
I'm always up for a chat.
SPEAKER_02 (34:29):
That's how we met, right?
We just had a chat.
And here we are.
So I'd love to take you througha swift seven questions just to
get to know you a little bitbetter.
Yep.
So the first question is whatare three words you would use to
describe an ideal leader?
SPEAKER_00 (34:47):
Three words to describe a great leader.
I think uh genuine, empathetic,and forward thinking.
SPEAKER_02 (34:59):
Yeah, because it's all about if you're leading
someone, you're moving forward,right?
SPEAKER_00 (35:03):
Yeah, yeah.
That's right.
Being able to have a clear ideaof what that is and then
articulate it for people, doingit in your genuine way.
SPEAKER_02 (35:11):
Yeah, and with that people empathy connection.
Yeah, what it's all about.
So question two is uh fill inthe blank.
Magnetic authenticity is owningyour own voice and being
yourself.
So question three is when younotice yourself trying to fit
in, what's the first thing thatyou do?
SPEAKER_00 (35:34):
Ask yourself why.
Yeah.
I think if you're trying to fitin and it's not quite working,
understanding why that is,whether it's because you're not
able to, you know, feel yourselfin that situation or where
(35:54):
there's some other kind ofdynamic that's going on,
understanding that I think upfront is really helpful.
And then, you know, ultimatelyasking yourself whether it's a
place that you want to fit in.
And if so, then navigating yourway through it.
And if not, having the courageto walk away.
SPEAKER_02 (36:14):
That's such an empowered perspective to take.
Yeah, I love it.
Not easy.
No, not easy.
It sounds simple, but it's noteasy.
SPEAKER_01 (36:21):
Takes decades of self-work.
SPEAKER_02 (36:24):
So, question four is what's the song that gets you
really pumped?
Oh, okay.
SPEAKER_00 (36:29):
I'm gonna say roar by Katie Perry.
Oh, yes.
And maybe that's because my kidshave just got it on repeat at
the moment as well, could bepart of it.
But that really gets me bumped.
Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (36:40):
We've got AFL footy themed songs on repeat at the
moment.
So I'm laying it on the web.
SPEAKER_02 (36:48):
Question five is what is the most daring thing
you've ever done?
SPEAKER_00 (36:52):
Oh, okay.
Well, there's a couple.
I mean, in a single afternoon,skydiving.
Went skydiving.
So my boyfriend at the time, nowhusband, we decided we'll get
that for each other forChristmas.
And so we went tandem skydivingone afternoon, and it was the
(37:12):
most terrifying, exhilarating,exciting, mind-blowing thing
that I've ever done, and had itjust an adrenaline rush that
just kept coming back allafternoon, just up and down, up
and down, up and down.
That was absolutely incredible.
SPEAKER_02 (37:28):
How's that for like change going through your body
of a lot?
SPEAKER_00 (37:32):
Am I gonna die?
Yeah, exactly.
Will I get through this?
Okay, and then then and then youknow oh good, the chute opened.
Excellent.
We're in a good place, and thenoh now we've got to land.
Oh my god.
SPEAKER_02 (37:43):
Wow.
The closest thing I've done tothat is the para paragliding of
the cliff.
Yeah, yeah.
So way, way more tame.
Well, but still.
Oh, it's beautiful, it'speaceful.
Yeah, it's really peaceful.
Tell me about that.
Yeah.
You just the scariest part is somy we were in New Zealand when
this happened, and my husband,he doesn't like cliffs, so he's
like, You're crazy.
You're literally gonna run off acliff.
And that was the worst bit.
(38:04):
So you're you're hooked up tosomeone and you have to just you
can't run slowly because thenthe chute won't lift up.
So you have to run without youknow hesitation towards this end
of the cliff.
But once the chute picks you up,it's so peaceful because it's
quiet and you're just floatinggently, and you can do some
crazy turns and stuff, but it'sstill it was it was amazing.
I'd definitely do it again.
Incredible.
(38:24):
All right, I might have to addthat to the bucket list.
Yeah, okay.
Uh so question six is do youhave a quote or a mantra that
you live by?
SPEAKER_00 (38:36):
Oh I've got one at the moment, which is you can and
you will.
Oh, yeah.
So if there's a will, there's away.
And if you really want to dosomething, you will find a way
to do it.
SPEAKER_02 (38:49):
Yeah, amazing.
And final question, numberseven, is what's one small thing
that brings you incredible joy?
SPEAKER_00 (38:57):
Uh just being home with the kids and the dog
running around, seeing themhappy, not fighting.
So they're rare moments.
But being there, looking out andseeing them running around and
happy and actually realizingthat that's what's important.
unknown (39:20):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (39:20):
Just that connection and being carefree.
SPEAKER_02 (39:23):
Yeah, and they they have this lovely ability to just
not care, right?
They just do.
Exactly.
We've got to learn that as well.
Uh relearn that exactly.
I agree.
So thank you so much for thisconversation.
It's been so insightful andthought-provoking.
And I hope that the peoplewatching out there have found
something that they can reallyput into action straight away
(39:43):
and step into that leader thatthey want to be as they're
leading through change.
Absolutely.
Thank you for having me.
SPEAKER_00 (39:48):
It's been great to be here and have this
conversation.
SPEAKER_02 (39:51):
Amazing.
Thank you.
SPEAKER_00 (39:52):
Thank you.
SPEAKER_02 (39:54):
How good was that discussion?
Let's look at some keytakeaways.
For me, it was sustainablechange equals leadership and
two-way communications.
So broadcasting updates doesn'tactually make change stick.
Leaders need to be authentic,and that two-way dialogue early
and often is so people canquestion and shape their own
(40:17):
outcomes.
And it shifts it from this doneto me to done with me energy.
The second thing I loved wasthat dead zone of change, the
change fatigue and that changesaturation when too many
initiatives are happening all atonce, and it collides with this
whole overwhelm and this justunceasing waves of change.
(40:40):
So the importance of creatingpsychological safety in the
space and pausing to talk aboutthis, the dependencies, asking
what can stop so things canactually land.
And the third thing was themindset before method,
communicating to involve, not totell.
And so using thatself-leadership and authenticity
(41:00):
throughout the whole process.
So it's not about necessarilywhat you say, but how you invite
people in and how you open thatspace for vulnerability and
trust and that shared design sothat your resistors actually
turn to advocators.
And I don't know about you, butthat's actually one of the most
exciting things I love aboutchange is when you see someone
who usually pushes back, leaningin and becoming your big biggest
(41:22):
advocate.
So if you'd like to work withLana, be sure to reach out with
her.
And until next time, rememberyou were born for a reason.
It's time to thrive.
We're about to meet Lana North, a communications pro
with over two decades ofexperience helping leaders
navigate that messy middle ofchange.
From major transformationprograms in Europe and Australia
to founding the communicationexchange, Lana knows just how
hard it can be to lead whenyou're still figuring it all out
(00:56):
for yourself.
Now she works with leadershipteams and individuals to build
practical, human-centeredcommunication strategies that
actually stick, helping leadersguide their people through
uncertainty with more confidenceand clarity.
When she's not leading change,Lana's wrangling three kids,
Labrador and the occasionalfence jumping cow.
(01:19):
Let's welcome Lana into thepodcast.
Welcome on in, Lana.
So great to have you here.
Thanks for having me, Jolene.
Great to be here.
We've been looking forward tothis for a while, haven't we?
Yeah, we have.
It's been building for a bit.
So I'd love for you to start offby telling us a little bit about
the communication exchange andhow that came to be.
SPEAKER_00 (01:36):
Yeah, so the communication exchange is born
from 20 years of my corporatecommunications experience
working across a whole range ofindustries and seeing some of
the same challenges come upagain and again with the work I
do with leaders across alllevels of leadership.
So what I've found is thatpeople really struggle when
(01:57):
they're leading their teamthrough change and they struggle
with the communication part ofthat and more so the team
engagement element of that.
And so I've started thecommunication exchange to really
focus on helping professionalleaders to drive sustainable
change by mastering theircommunication and their
engagement skills.
SPEAKER_02 (02:17):
Yeah, amazing.
And it's so needed right now.
I'm you've you've mentionedsustainable change a couple of
times.
Can you unpack what thatactually means?
SPEAKER_00 (02:26):
Yeah, absolutely.
I think when we think aboutchange, we often can go into
down the path of thinking about,you know, one change and then
another change and them beingquite individual circumstances
that happen within anorganization or a workplace.
When we change things around andthink about sustainable change,
(02:48):
it's really about thinking howdo we make this change stick for
the long term?
So, what do we need to do sothat in 12 months' time, two
years' time, and beyond, we'veactually realized the benefits
of the change that we weresetting out to make.
And those changes have stuck.
So we find ourselves down thepath where we have progressed
(03:11):
and not back to square one,where we're thinking, what went
wrong and why are we staringdown the barrel of the same
problems that we were when we'vedone all this change work?
And so for me, sustainablechange is really about making
sure that the change that we setout to achieve has really stuck,
which means that the benefitshave been delivered well into
(03:34):
the future and not after achange program team has
disappeared and moved on to thenext thing.
SPEAKER_02 (03:39):
100%.
And I I guess I am the personwho helps the leaders in terms
of their mindset and theirperformance and that ongoing
after the change has comethrough, but also through the
change.
And I think what's really keyhere is that it's about the
change really being embeddedwhere people own it, right?
SPEAKER_00 (03:57):
Exactly.
100%.
And you would see it in yourwork as well, as you said.
Really making sure that peoplefeel that it becomes a part of
their day-to-day and that it'snot a program or an initiative
or something that happened thatwas uh one-off, and then we've
just got to get through this andthen we can get back to the way
things were.
(04:17):
That's absolutely not the waythat we want to approach it.
If we do that, then we end uprunning the risk of being back
where we were, having spent awhole lot of money to end up
back at square one.
But it really is about seeinghow leaders can lead themselves
through the change as much asleading their team through the
change.
And you would see that a lot inyour work as well.
(04:39):
Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (04:40):
It's definitely about self and then others.
And then also, I think from whatI've seen, there's a lot of
people that are resistant tochange, what we'll call
resistant.
And I think when those changeskeep coming and coming and
coming, and people don't see thebenefits, of course they're
gonna be cynical, right?
If this change is real thistime.
SPEAKER_00 (04:58):
Yeah, yeah.
Absolutely.
Absolutely.
Change resistance is one ofthose things that we really do
look at and really need to takea very critical lens over from
the very beginning when we'reworking with, you know, either a
team or with an individualleader to find out what's going
on for their team.
And change resistance, it's veryeasy to say that, you know,
(05:20):
people, you know, they're justnot on board, or I've told
people and they're not comingalong with it, and it's just not
landing.
I'm not sure why.
And change resistance isactually innate to us as human
beings.
We like things the way they are,and we really don't want to move
things because it meansexperiencing some kind of
(05:41):
discomfort, having to change ourmindset, having to adapt to the
way things always were, and thatcan be quite challenging for
people.
And some of the things that feedinto that are the volume of
change that teams go through.
And we know that, you know, atthe moment, the only constants
(06:02):
that people have in theirworkplaces and well, lives in
general, is change.
So, how do we do what we can tominimize that resistance or
acknowledge it and bring peoplealong with the change as we make
it?
SPEAKER_02 (06:18):
Yeah, and I find when you can flip someone from
the change resistor to thechange champion, like that's
phenomenal, isn't it?
Magic.
SPEAKER_00 (06:26):
Yeah.
That that's where the magichappens.
And that's absolutely the goldstar of what we what we aim for
in any any change engagementwhen we can flip somebody from
being a resistor of changethrough to an advocate for the
change.
And really a lot of work needsto go into that.
But the core element of it isbringing people along for the
(06:48):
journey so that in the end,people don't feel like change
has been done to them, uh, andtherefore they feel a victim of
it or they feel uh that theyweren't engaged at all.
Rather, we want people to feelthat change has been done with
them, and so they actually hadsome kind of involvement in the
change and being able toparticipate in it so they can
(07:09):
help to create the outcomes.
SPEAKER_02 (07:11):
Yeah, 100%.
I so agree with everything thatyou're saying.
And so there's so much changegoing on in the world right now,
and I think it's happeningfaster and faster and faster.
So help us understand what isit.
There's so many ways that we canlead change.
What is it about communicationspecifically that helps people
to lead and manage change well?
SPEAKER_00 (07:31):
Yeah.
Great question.
Really, the thing that helpspeople to lead and manage change
well when it comes tocommunication is their
authenticity.
And we have leaders who arenatural extroverts, leaders who
are natural introverts, and theyhave very, very different
styles, and helping them to haveauthenticity in the way that
(07:52):
they communicate and feelingthat they can really own the
message and not only have amessage to deliver, but a
conversation to start withpeople, and making it two-way is
where we really get a lot oftraction in making change stick,
having that two-way dialogue sothat it's not just one way for
(08:13):
people and people have anopportunity to ask their
questions, to give theirsuggestions.
That's really where we can makebig change happen.
SPEAKER_02 (08:23):
Yeah.
And how often have you seen whenyou come in and work with an
organization, peoplebroadcasting their communication
rather than that true two-waycommunication?
SPEAKER_00 (08:33):
Oh, it happens all the time.
Yeah.
And what's the impact?
The impact is people who areusually resistant to change and
feeling that level ofdisengagement.
And I think, you know, comingback to that point of there is
so much change happening in theworld at large at the moment,
that translates into workplaces.
(08:53):
And workplaces are so noisyright now.
There are so many competingpriorities that are out there
asking teams and asking leadersfor their attention.
And so when you throw anotherthing into the mix and we're
just broadcasting, and we say,Yes, we did the comms check.
(09:19):
That's not that's not going tonot a check, not going to stick.
We have to do much, much morethan do a broadcast.
One and done is not a way tocommunicate.
Doing the comms is notcommunicating effectively.
We really need to take the timefrom early in the process, even
(09:42):
when we don't have all of theanswers, to bring people along,
explain the context, gettingpeople to understand how it will
affect them in their day-to-day,so that when it comes time to
actually make the change actionand ask people to change their
behavior and what they're doing,they un already understand why.
(10:05):
They already understand how it'sgoing to impact them.
And they feel less afraid of itbecause they've had a chance to
input into what that looks like.
SPEAKER_02 (10:14):
Yeah, 100%.
And I'm so glad you brought thatup because I I think a lot of
what I see and why so I work inthe transforming the individual,
right?
And that fear gets people toeither camp down and they they
fight flight flight or free.
SPEAKER_01 (10:29):
No, flight or flight.
Flight or fright.
There's three of them.
Fight, flight, freeze.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (10:36):
Yeah.
So I'm almost melting that andgiving that the sense of safety
that you'll be okay through thischange.
Exactly.
SPEAKER_00 (10:44):
I think that that's the key word there.
You've hit the nail on the headis safety.
So creating a safe place forpeople to have their
uncertainty, to be able to talkabout it and put it on the
table.
Because you can only workthrough that when you know what
it is that somebody'sexperiencing and what they're
(11:06):
worried about.
And if that is hidden and peopleare too afraid to talk about it,
then you can't actually addressit.
So the problems that you knowabout are the ones you can do
something about.
If you don't know about them,then they will hide, you know,
underneath everything thatyou're trying to do and start to
(11:27):
pick away at it, but you won'teven know that it's happening.
And so that's where you end upin situations where you'll
think, well, I I told people andthey said yes, but then nothing
happened.
And so where did that disconnectcome from?
And often it comes from a placeof not having a safe place to
(11:47):
bring up any fears oruncertainty.
And so creating that place ofsafety is really important from
the outset.
SPEAKER_02 (11:54):
So we've talked about communication and change
more broadly.
I'd love to understand what yousee leaders struggle with most
when it comes to communicationand engaging their teams.
SPEAKER_00 (12:06):
Yeah, it's a great question.
And leaders initially struggleor have a bit of a challenge
with telling their team aboutthe change.
So that first moment where theyneed to tell their team that
something is going to change,and that can cause a lot of
uncertainty.
And that's where we really workvery closely on equipping them
(12:27):
with the story, that compellingstory of why there's a need for
change.
And then that's closely followedby a fear from the leaders of
I'm not sure how to involve myteam in doing this.
And I feel very vulnerable ifI'm going to open up part of
this change to my team or toother people, other stakeholders
(12:49):
that I have within theorganization, or sometimes
outside, to lose control of whatsome part of the change might
look like.
And it often comes from theuncertainty themselves in not
knowing all the answers.
But when people step into thatdiscomfort of not knowing and
(13:11):
letting go of some of thecontrol of the end result of
what the change will look liketo let their people in, that's
when magic can happen.
Because that's when you givepeople, you show them trust,
that they have an opportunity tocontribute and you acknowledge
that they have expertise that isreally valuable to you and that
(13:33):
you want to seek that.
And you also give them anopportunity to create part of
the change.
And when you do that, peoplesuddenly feel like they have
ownership of it.
And we know that when peoplefeel like they have owned
something, then they willabsolutely go in to defend it
(13:54):
and to make sure that they dotheir part to see it succeed.
So that part of finding someownership somewhere in the
change process is really, reallyimportant to the ultimate
success of it.
Because then the people who youare dependent on to implement
when you get to that point havealready been able to see how
(14:14):
their input has shaped what thatfinal outcome is.
SPEAKER_02 (14:18):
Yeah, that ownership is so, so key.
I think it yeah, it helps helpstake it from the it's being done
to me to I I'm now part of thisand I can actually come along
willingly, right?
SPEAKER_00 (14:29):
Absolutely.
Yeah.
That whole change isn't beingdone to me, change is being done
with me.
Critical.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (14:37):
Now you touched on vulnerability there, and I
wanted to explore in terms ofauthenticity.
So being that magneticauthenticity kind of leader
where people are just drawn toyou and drawn to be part of the
change.
What role do you thinkauthenticity plays in leading
change?
SPEAKER_00 (14:55):
Oh, it is absolutely one of the key success factors
for any change.
And people know when you're notbeing yourself.
And if they get a sense that youdon't believe in the change that
you're, you know, asking them tobe part of, then there's no way
(15:15):
that you will get your team tocome along with you.
So finding your own unique voiceand communication style, whether
it comes to change or any kindof leadership communication, is
absolutely essential.
Because when you do that, thenpeople know when you're genuine,
when you're being yourself, youfeel much more authentic about
(15:38):
it, and therefore other peoplebelieve you, and that's where
the credibility comes from inwhat you're doing.
I mean, I'm sure you would seeit in your work all the time.
We have a world that we tend tothink is built for extroverts,
and then when we haveintroverted leaders, they have a
very different style.
Now it can be really, reallyeffective as long as we allow
(16:00):
that to come out and for peopleto own their own genuine voice.
And so that's part of the workthat I do once we've created the
uh change story with people, isto help them work through how
they're going to share it in away that feels genuine for them
and has a great deal of impactso that people believe them,
(16:21):
know that it's come from them,and therefore set the change up
for success.
SPEAKER_02 (16:26):
Yeah, amazing.
And there's one thing that I seea lot of, which is uh change
fatigue.
And some people might notunderstand what that means
necessarily.
Could you tell us a little bitabout that and and what do you
do about it?
SPEAKER_00 (16:39):
Yeah, it's it's really, really critical to look
at that.
Change fatigue is is very realand it's it's rife at the
moment.
And change fatigue, uh there area couple of things that really
feed into change fatigue andwhat makes that up.
So, on the one hand, you've gotchange saturation, and that's
(17:04):
when there is a huge amount ofchange that's all hitting at the
same time.
And so people just not sure whatthey should be focusing on,
where the priorities are, andthat's quite confused for
people, and they just, you know,don't know where to begin.
And then on the other hand, youhave change overwhelm, and
(17:26):
that's where change has justbeen a constant for people all
the time, and it's been ongoingfor a long period of time.
And so you'll have change that'sbeen rolling out consistently
for a long period of time, andthen you have change saturation
where you've got a whole load ofdifferent change initiatives
that are all hitting at the sametime.
(17:47):
And when those things collide,that's where change fatigue
really comes in.
And we could call it somethingelse, we could call it the dead
zone for change because nochange is happening, not well
anyway, and not effectively, andnot in a sustainable way when
our teams are working in thechange dead zone.
(18:09):
Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (18:10):
I love how you articulated that with the the
different components of it.
That's it's so true.
And what I do often is I'msupporting the leader that's
that's hitting that dead zoneand helping them to be
sustainable in who they are andtheir approach and their impact
as well.
Yeah.
So what are some of the thingsthat you see when you're working
with leaders through this?
(18:32):
One I think is maybe they'vebeen in the pot so long that
they they don't realize thatthat's where they are, that
they're in the dead zone.
They almost it's become the normto deal with that amount of
change.
And there's almost a hesitancyto to pause the ship and say,
well, actually, out of all ofthese changes, which is most
(18:53):
critical?
Are we continuing a change thatmaybe doesn't need to be
continued anymore?
So we can give people somebreathing space and really
recognizing how all of that'simpacting not only themselves
but their team as well from awell-being perspective.
Yeah.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (19:10):
Absolutely.
Absolutely.
I think that's really, reallycritical.
I was reminds me of a time whereI was working in-house within a
large logistics supply chainorganization, and we knew that
change fatigue, you know, washappening in different pockets
of the business.
And so we were sitting aroundthe table with the executive
(19:31):
team and just presented the hugegamut of change that was
happening and the things thatwere happening within both the
operational areas of thebusiness and the corporate
functions, and then all of thesupport functions that went
along with it.
And then we went to the point oflooking at all the change that
was impacting our customers aswell.
(19:52):
And when we put all of that onthe table, it forced a bit of
recalibration because beforethat, the conversation had been,
oh, but the change program thatI'm sponsoring is only affecting
this little area.
And well, the one that I'msponsoring is only affecting
this little area over here.
But when you added them all uptogether and you could see where
(20:14):
they were crossing over and thesame teams that were having to
deal with them all, it was very,very confronting.
And all of a sudden, it became aconversation about that
well-being and about values andwhat we as leaders have as a
responsibility to look after ourpeople and as well as looking
after our people and theirwell-being through it,
(20:37):
recognizing that we weren'tgoing to achieve the commercial
outcomes we were after becausepeople were exhausted and it
wasn't going to be done properlybecause we didn't have the
bandwidth.
And so then we entered thenegotiation stage of what do we
pause and what do we stop andwhat do we keep doing, what are
dependencies?
And that was, you know, veryrobust.
(20:58):
And there were difficultconversations that had to be had
from that, but we were able topause things or say, that one is
actually dependent on this one.
So it needs to slow down so thatwe give both things a chance of
success.
And it does take a level ofmaturity to be able to come to
that conversation and beprepared to give up some time or
(21:18):
some scope for the greateroutcome of looking after your
people and making sure yourchange is going to be
sustainable.
SPEAKER_02 (21:25):
Yeah.
And maybe even that investmentbias is in you've put all this
energy, resourcing, andinvestment into a change, and
then to abandon it takes a lotof courage to actually go
nowhere worse off progressingthan we are.
SPEAKER_00 (21:38):
Absolutely.
There is a huge amount of honorin putting your hand up and
saying this program that I'mheavily invested in and I really
want to see go forward isactually the not the best thing
for our organization at themoment.
Huge amount of honour in beingable to put your hand up and
say, we need to pause or we needto stop or we need to pivot.
SPEAKER_02 (22:02):
Yeah, and I think that's where it links into that
authenticity and that confidencein self that no, this is the
right thing for the greatergood.
Yep.
Rather than trying to plowforward.
SPEAKER_00 (22:13):
Absolutely.
Absolutely.
The the easy thing is to keepgoing because you said you were
going to, rather than stoppinghaving the conversation to say
it's important, but it's not asimportant at the moment as some
of the other things that arehappening.
Yeah.
I love this conversation.
We just need to make that thenorm.
That's all.
We'll get there.
SPEAKER_02 (22:34):
So with the work that you do, Lana, I imagine
you're working with both mindsetand skillset.
Can you tell us a little bitabout how you you changed two of
those things?
SPEAKER_00 (22:45):
Yeah, absolutely.
So mindset is absolutely the thefirst place to begin, and you'd
be familiar with this from yourwork as well, I'm sure, Jolene.
Giving people the confidence inthemselves and their own ability
to communicate and to engage isone thing, and that's very much
(23:07):
the skill set side of things.
The mindset side of thingsreally is the beginning of the
work that we do because you canonly lead your team and other
people through change when youcan lead yourself through
change.
And so there's a bit of workthat needs to be done up front
to really do a self-check-in andthink how invested am I in the
(23:34):
change program that we'rerolling out, or the change that
we're making, whatever it mightbe, and really ensuring that the
person is absolutely set up forsuccess in doing that with the
way they think about the changeas it's coming down the path,
the way that they are preparedto lead themselves into
(23:58):
uncertain territories as well,and have some honest
conversations with themselvesaround what might be hard, what
might be uncomfortable.
Because only when they have beenable to lean into that, then can
we move on to how are we goingto communicate this to other
people?
Because we know that from acommunication effectiveness
(24:21):
point of view, the things thatmake communication effective and
really make it land for people,firstly, who you are.
So some people will have thatfrom the roles that they're in
and the titles that they hold,but more than that, it's how
believable they are to theirpeople.
(24:43):
The second part is what you say,and I work with people to work
through the narrative and makingsure it makes sense and all of
that, but that's only a tinypart of what makes a
communication really effective.
Who you are and what you say areactually the least important in
(25:05):
having people believe yourmessage and come along with it.
The most important part is howyou deliver the communication,
and this is the part that peoplewill sometimes struggle with.
And so that work around reallyknowing yourself and knowing
your communication style and theway that is genuine for you is
(25:27):
absolutely critical to do as anupfront piece.
And that's linked to the mindsetand leading yourself through
change and being able to knowyourself, know your
communication style, becauseonly then can you really
intentionally set out tocommunicate to your team with
impact in a way that's going tofeel right for you, which will
(25:47):
make your message land and beeffective and have people really
take it on board.
SPEAKER_02 (25:52):
Yeah.
So it's the who you are, youryour own mindset, and then the
how you actually deliver thechange, all of that in the
world.
Absolutely.
unknown (25:59):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (25:59):
And so have you ever come across someone who maybe
was struggling with that bit orthe the communication just
wasn't landing and you've you'vemanaged to turn that around?
SPEAKER_00 (26:08):
Yeah, absolutely.
So, I mean, I've worked incommunication roles internally
as business partner to peoplewho are leading change for a
very long time.
And there was one person thatreally sticks out as being, you
know, coming from a very goodplace of wanting to be the best
(26:29):
communicator they could be, butthey thought about it from a
very analytical space of how doI get this across and what are
the things that I have to do.
And if I do these things, tick,tick, tick, then I will have got
my message across and been avery effective communicator.
(26:50):
And really, the way theconversation started was we're
we're taking my team throughthese changes.
Can you help me to put the commstogether so that then I can
stand up and really know that Ihaven't missed anything, that
I've been very thorough andshared everything that I needed
to do?
And said, Well, I can help youwith that, of course.
(27:14):
But first we need to know whatis it that's really important to
your people, and what is itthat's important for you to get
across?
And how do you feel reallygenuine in getting up and you
know, talking to a group ofpeople, which is not your
comfort zone and is notsomething that you do on a daily
(27:34):
basis.
And they're a bit taken abackbecause they said, Well, I just
want you to really give me thetalking notes, and then I'll
just stand up and you know,talk, talk to people.
Said, Well, that's one way toapproach it, but it's not a very
effective way.
And that made them really sit upand take notes.
So, well, what but why?
Like, because we've thoughtabout it all, it all makes
(27:55):
sense, we have a rational planfor how we're going to do it,
and from an analytical point ofview, it did make sense.
All the all the pieces werethere, but there was no
connection in it.
And so when we sat down and Isaid, Well, tell me what is it
about your people and this teamthat they're going to be most
(28:18):
worried about with the change?
And we talked about that.
And then tell me what else havethey got going on for them in
their you know, work world atthe moment.
Okay, tell me about that.
And then tell me why is thisparticular change necessary now
and how is it going to impactthem?
(28:40):
Okay, tell me about this.
Oh, this is a lot more involved,Lana, than what I thought it was
going to be.
I thought that there were justsome messages that I would just
stand up and share.
Well, again, that's one way ofdoing it.
But if you really want people totake on board what it is that
you're doing, you need toconnect with them on a human
level.
And you can do that.
(29:01):
You do that all the time.
You're just more comfortable inan analytical sense.
But you have a team that lovesworking for you.
And so it's about tapping intothat and why do they love
working for you?
What is it that you bring everyday that you also then need to
apply to telling them about thischange that you're doing?
(29:22):
And then he really sat back andthought about it and was able to
identify his personalcharacteristics that he bring
every every day when he walksinto the team and how he shows
up.
And then when we were able toapply that to the messages and
the change as we were, you know,talking about how do we share
the message, that's when themagic started to happen.
(29:44):
And then when he was able tostand up in front of people, it
was a completely differentconversation.
In fact, it was actually aconversation rather than a
presentation and inviting peopleto share the part that they were
worried about or their thoughtsabout it.
And so then that became really,really powerful.
SPEAKER_02 (30:01):
That's so cool.
Because I've I've worked with alot of people that have that
more analytical mind over thepeople focused mind, and it does
take time and effort to get themto realise that no, the the
people, that connection side ofthem is what is like the cherry
on top that brings people acrossthe line, right?
Yeah, just the just the processalone is not enough.
(30:22):
You need both, and I love thatyou you're able to like that's
kind of what I like I love doingis like unpacking that for
people and getting them to go,oh wow, because you can apply it
beyond change.
Oh, absolutely to everythingthat they're doing as a leader,
yeah.
Exactly.
Like both.
SPEAKER_00 (30:35):
Moments everywhere.
SPEAKER_02 (30:39):
So we've gone so many different ways, which I
love.
This is the kind of conversationthat I love having.
Could you tell us, Lana, forpeople listening, what's one
small shift that they could maketo really amp up their
engagement as they're leading achange?
SPEAKER_00 (30:53):
Absolutely.
So there's one mindset shiftthat people can take when
they're looking to start leadingtheir team through change, and
that's around their mindsettowards communication.
And if people can look atcommunication as a way of
(31:13):
involving people and not tellingpeople, then that is the biggest
shift that they can make.
So have a mindset of communicateto involve, not to tell.
Communicate to involve, not totell.
And then people will really havethat feeling that change is
(31:36):
being done with them and not tothem.
And that's a really powerfulshift that you can make if
there's one thing that you do.
SPEAKER_02 (31:45):
Yeah, it's almost and it's probably easier, right?
So instead of going, I need todo this big presentation about
change, just having aconversation with you people.
SPEAKER_00 (31:53):
Exactly.
Let's just make it two-way.
Let's have a chat about it.
Yeah, there's a lot that has togo into it, but it's also not
one and done.
We don't communicate about thechange once and think, well, I
told everybody, why isn'tanything happening?
No, it's a process and it needsto be reiterated again, and we
need to have different elementsof the conversation so that
(32:16):
we're really exploring it andgiving people the chance to
involve themselves in it.
SPEAKER_02 (32:21):
Yeah, amazing.
And what is one thing that youwish Lana people knew about
leading change?
SPEAKER_00 (32:31):
The thing about leading change that I wish
people knew was that it's notabout budget, it's not about
scope, it's not about process.
All those things are importantand they make up part of it.
But the thing that will makeyour change a success or not is
(32:58):
people.
Because you're dependent onpeople to make the change
happen.
And if people decide that theyare out and they're not
interested, then it doesn'tmatter how good your solution
is, how on time your Gantt chartis, how you know well you're
doing on delivering to budget,if people decide that they don't
(33:21):
want to make the change and theyresist it, then it won't happen.
And so thinking about change andany program that you roll out as
being about people is the onething that can really help to
set you up for success.
SPEAKER_02 (33:39):
Yeah, you're speaking my language.
So you we've talked a lot today,Lana, about all of these amazing
aspects to change.
And where can people go to findout more if they'd like to
connect with you?
SPEAKER_00 (33:52):
Yeah, absolutely.
Love to connect with people whoare leading their team through
change, thinking about change,designing change.
And the best place to find me isLinkedIn.
So Lana North on LinkedIn.
Also look up thecommunicationexchange.com and
reach out and I'd love to have achat with you as well.
(34:13):
So don't be shy.
Let me know what it is thatyou're working on, any questions
that you've got or or thingsthat you're pondering about your
communication, engagement, howto bring your team along for the
ride, uh, let me know.
I'm always up for a chat.
SPEAKER_02 (34:29):
That's how we met, right?
We just had a chat.
And here we are.
So I'd love to take you througha swift seven questions just to
get to know you a little bitbetter.
Yep.
So the first question is whatare three words you would use to
describe an ideal leader?
SPEAKER_00 (34:47):
Three words to describe a great leader.
I think uh genuine, empathetic,and forward thinking.
SPEAKER_02 (34:59):
Yeah, because it's all about if you're leading
someone, you're moving forward,right?
SPEAKER_00 (35:03):
Yeah, yeah.
That's right.
Being able to have a clear ideaof what that is and then
articulate it for people, doingit in your genuine way.
SPEAKER_02 (35:11):
Yeah, and with that people empathy connection.
Yeah, what it's all about.
So question two is uh fill inthe blank.
Magnetic authenticity is owningyour own voice and being
yourself.
So question three is when younotice yourself trying to fit
in, what's the first thing thatyou do?
SPEAKER_00 (35:34):
Ask yourself why.
Yeah.
I think if you're trying to fitin and it's not quite working,
understanding why that is,whether it's because you're not
able to, you know, feel yourselfin that situation or where
(35:54):
there's some other kind ofdynamic that's going on,
understanding that I think upfront is really helpful.
And then, you know, ultimatelyasking yourself whether it's a
place that you want to fit in.
And if so, then navigating yourway through it.
And if not, having the courageto walk away.
SPEAKER_02 (36:14):
That's such an empowered perspective to take.
Yeah, I love it.
Not easy.
No, not easy.
It sounds simple, but it's noteasy.
SPEAKER_01 (36:21):
Takes decades of self-work.
SPEAKER_02 (36:24):
So, question four is what's the song that gets you
really pumped?
Oh, okay.
SPEAKER_00 (36:29):
I'm gonna say roar by Katie Perry.
Oh, yes.
And maybe that's because my kidshave just got it on repeat at
the moment as well, could bepart of it.
But that really gets me bumped.
Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (36:40):
We've got AFL footy themed songs on repeat at the
moment.
So I'm laying it on the web.
SPEAKER_02 (36:48):
Question five is what is the most daring thing
you've ever done?
SPEAKER_00 (36:52):
Oh, okay.
Well, there's a couple.
I mean, in a single afternoon,skydiving.
Went skydiving.
So my boyfriend at the time, nowhusband, we decided we'll get
that for each other forChristmas.
And so we went tandem skydivingone afternoon, and it was the
(37:12):
most terrifying, exhilarating,exciting, mind-blowing thing
that I've ever done, and had itjust an adrenaline rush that
just kept coming back allafternoon, just up and down, up
and down, up and down.
That was absolutely incredible.
SPEAKER_02 (37:28):
How's that for like change going through your body
of a lot?
SPEAKER_00 (37:32):
Am I gonna die?
Yeah, exactly.
Will I get through this?
Okay, and then then and then youknow oh good, the chute opened.
Excellent.
We're in a good place, and thenoh now we've got to land.
Oh my god.
SPEAKER_02 (37:43):
Wow.
The closest thing I've done tothat is the para paragliding of
the cliff.
Yeah, yeah.
So way, way more tame.
Well, but still.
Oh, it's beautiful, it'speaceful.
Yeah, it's really peaceful.
Tell me about that.
Yeah.
You just the scariest part is somy we were in New Zealand when
this happened, and my husband,he doesn't like cliffs, so he's
like, You're crazy.
You're literally gonna run off acliff.
And that was the worst bit.
(38:04):
So you're you're hooked up tosomeone and you have to just you
can't run slowly because thenthe chute won't lift up.
So you have to run without youknow hesitation towards this end
of the cliff.
But once the chute picks you up,it's so peaceful because it's
quiet and you're just floatinggently, and you can do some
crazy turns and stuff, but it'sstill it was it was amazing.
I'd definitely do it again.
Incredible.
(38:24):
All right, I might have to addthat to the bucket list.
Yeah, okay.
Uh so question six is do youhave a quote or a mantra that
you live by?
SPEAKER_00 (38:36):
Oh I've got one at the moment, which is you can and
you will.
Oh, yeah.
So if there's a will, there's away.
And if you really want to dosomething, you will find a way
to do it.
SPEAKER_02 (38:49):
Yeah, amazing.
And final question, numberseven, is what's one small thing
that brings you incredible joy?
SPEAKER_00 (38:57):
Uh just being home with the kids and the dog
running around, seeing themhappy, not fighting.
So they're rare moments.
But being there, looking out andseeing them running around and
happy and actually realizingthat that's what's important.
unknown (39:20):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (39:20):
Just that connection and being carefree.
SPEAKER_02 (39:23):
Yeah, and they they have this lovely ability to just
not care, right?
They just do.
Exactly.
We've got to learn that as well.
Uh relearn that exactly.
I agree.
So thank you so much for thisconversation.
It's been so insightful andthought-provoking.
And I hope that the peoplewatching out there have found
something that they can reallyput into action straight away
(39:43):
and step into that leader thatthey want to be as they're
leading through change.
Absolutely.
Thank you for having me.
SPEAKER_00 (39:48):
It's been great to be here and have this
conversation.
SPEAKER_02 (39:51):
Amazing.
Thank you.
SPEAKER_00 (39:52):
Thank you.
SPEAKER_02 (39:54):
How good was that discussion?
Let's look at some keytakeaways.
For me, it was sustainablechange equals leadership and
two-way communications.
So broadcasting updates doesn'tactually make change stick.
Leaders need to be authentic,and that two-way dialogue early
and often is so people canquestion and shape their own
(40:17):
outcomes.
And it shifts it from this doneto me to done with me energy.
The second thing I loved wasthat dead zone of change, the
change fatigue and that changesaturation when too many
initiatives are happening all atonce, and it collides with this
whole overwhelm and this justunceasing waves of change.
(40:40):
So the importance of creatingpsychological safety in the
space and pausing to talk aboutthis, the dependencies, asking
what can stop so things canactually land.
And the third thing was themindset before method,
communicating to involve, not totell.
And so using thatself-leadership and authenticity
(41:00):
throughout the whole process.
So it's not about necessarilywhat you say, but how you invite
people in and how you open thatspace for vulnerability and
trust and that shared design sothat your resistors actually
turn to advocators.
And I don't know about you, butthat's actually one of the most
exciting things I love aboutchange is when you see someone
who usually pushes back, leaningin and becoming your big biggest
(41:22):
advocate.
So if you'd like to work withLana, be sure to reach out with
her.
And until next time, rememberyou were born for a reason.
It's time to thrive.
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