Episode Transcript
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Jolynne Rydz (00:36):
Everyone's so
nice.
Ooh, I love it when I hear thiscomment in an organization
because there's a number ofgreat things about it.
One is it shows that the peoplein the organization seem to
care about each other and arefriendly.
They are there to look out foreach other, help each other.
(00:57):
There's often a lot of greatteamwork going on.
People are connecting andmaking friends beyond the work
as well.
And I love it when I hear thisbecause niceness can backfire.
And it there can be a hiddencultural problem to it.
So niceness for me shows upwhen people are say hello to
you.
People smile, people arewilling to help you out, they
(01:19):
eat lunch together.
And that's great because wespend 1,800 hours together every
year, if we're full-time atwork.
So why wouldn't you want to getalong with everyone?
So the hidden side to this isthat polarity.
And so much of leadership andso much of culture work lies in
(01:39):
the polarity.
So niceness on one end issomething great and something
you want to strive for in termsof that connection and the
social side and the teamwork.
But on the other end, whenthings are not going so well, it
can actually stifle innovation,productivity, and engagement.
So the very thing that it lookslike it's helping, it can
(02:01):
actually be diminishing.
So when niceness backfires,things look great on the surface
because everything's shiny,everyone's nice to your face.
You know what I'm talkingabout.
And I'm not talking about in abad way, but it's the meetings
that happen where things gettalked about.
And then when you close thedoor, there's all these side
conversations happening abouthow likely is that to actually
(02:23):
happen, what's standing in theway, what actually needs to be
done to move things forward.
That conversation is theconversation that should be had
in the room to genuinelyinnovate and move a project
forward.
But if it's happening in thehallway, the right people are
not hearing it.
And if it's happening in thehallway, that's a sign that
(02:45):
people don't feel safe to havethat conversation in the room.
And one of the reasons theydon't feel safe is this
niceness, when niceness getsover-indexed.
So one of the ways you can lookat this is what's being said
and done outside of the meeting.
So other signs that nicenessmight be backfiring for you is
(03:06):
have you ever gone in, presentedsomething, and asked for
feedback or asked if anyone hasany questions and you get
crickets.
Silence is a sign that peoplesometimes aren't ready for that.
There can be other reasons whythere's silence, but sometimes
it's a sign that I can't saywhat I really want to say, or I
might sound stupid if I ask aquestion.
(03:28):
Or if I say this comment,people are gonna think I'm
negative.
So I'll just stay quiet.
Other signs that this might beat play for you is that when you
do ask for feedback, all thefeedback is is great.
It's encouraging.
Yeah, you're doing fantastic.
I love the idea.
Let's run with this.
Great.
So on one hand, that can bereally good if it's 100% genuine
(03:49):
and authentic, and no dampeningof what the truth is, no
withholding comments andthoughts for later or someone
else when you get home.
So if it's only positive, youneed to do some digging into is
it truly only positive or arethere things not being said?
What's the perspective thathasn't been shared?
So I'm not saying that nice isa bad thing.
(04:11):
Nice is great.
And in the pursuit of peakperformance, in the pursuit of
creating workplaces where peoplefeel safe, psychologically
safe, and able to thrive andbring their best selves to work,
niceness sometimes isn'tenough.
And niceness sometimes can betoo much nicen, can be a sign
that there's systemic issues.
(04:33):
So issues in terms of culture,in terms of systems and
processes, in terms of unspokenthings that are preventing
people from performing at theirpeak.
So when niceness backfires andthis hidden culture problem
arises, you might see thingslike lack of trust.
And that can be lack of trustin people's own self, but it can
(04:55):
also be lack of trust inothers.
So that shows up in terms ofpeople being afraid to give or
receive meaningful feedback,afraid to ask questions in case
of what people think of them.
Is this expectation that theythey have to be nice, they have
to know what they're doing.
Or maybe if I ask a question,I'm interrupting someone, so I'm
(05:16):
not being nice.
There's also potentially a lackof psychological safety to be
your whole self and say what youtruly think.
So think of all the messagingwe get in our society that this
is a bad thing to say what wetruly think.
Think about the whistleblowersthat get their face blurred out
on TV, the troublemakers, thepeople that just rock the boat,
(05:37):
or the people that show up andare always negative, right?
Those labels prevent peoplefrom saying probably meaningful
things that we need to be awareof.
Do you think Kodak had someonein a meeting that maybe was
always seen as negative that wassaying, hey, we need to pivot
from film to something elsebecause digital is coming.
(05:59):
Digital cameras.
I guarantee you there'll besomeone in the organization who
was at least thinking that.
And if not saying it, they weremaybe being dismissed.
So another thing that canhappen is when people realize I
have to be nice.
I don't want to be mean.
And that's the most importantthing about how I show up at
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work.
There are there are sideeffects to that.
So people feel valued for beingnice rather than bringing
really constructive, robustdiscussion and feedback to the
table.
So, what this can do when weover-index on being nice is we
can create this kind of clubvibe where everyone loves
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showing up.
It's really social, and you doget stuff done, but you probably
don't get as much done, or youdon't do the really big
innovative step challenges andchanges that are really gonna
get you having an incredibleimpact rather than, yeah, a
pretty good impact.
That's the difference.
A really purposeful, agile,adaptable organization where
(07:03):
people can put everything on thetable, experiment, and play
with it.
So you're gonna say some ofthis is nothing to do with
nicest, and that's true.
But one of the key root causesis this over-indexing on
niceness when nicenessbackfires.
And it's so insidious on manylevel levels because nice, a
nice culture is great.
(07:23):
Like we that's something welook for, something we strive
for.
And so this is why when we havea nice culture, we've got to
have our eyes and ears open forthose subtle signs that maybe
it's gone a little too far.
So in 2025, Gallup reportedthat 29% of people felt there
was a lack of clearcommunication or honesty and
(07:47):
consistency in the way theycommunicated with their
leadership.
And only 28% of respondentsagreed that their opinions
mattered at work.
Now let that sink in a littlebit.
That means like 70% of people,the majority, overwhelming
majority of people, are feelinglike they can't have an open,
(08:07):
trusting conversation with theirleader or their leadership
team.
They can't express an opinionand have it be heard or at least
considered.
And so how can we possiblyinnovate when the majority of
people feel this way?
Yeah, we can't.
People are holding back.
And this is so, so important.
So if we're valuing people forbeing nice rather than
(08:28):
contributing an idea that mightbe a crap idea, it might fail,
who knows?
But we don't know that until wehonor that idea and run with it
for a bit and see what happensand do some really constructive
critical thinking around it.
So one of the root causes ofall of this dynamic is that
hidden trap of nice and when itbackfires and over-indexing on
(08:50):
nice being important.
So many years ago, I was in anorganization and they were so
nice, so friendly, you know, andeveryone said hello to each
other, everyone was offeringhelp.
And it was great because I'vebeen in organizations where
people don't meet your eye inthe corridor, where they don't
say hello, where people come in,sit down, do their work, go
(09:12):
home, and they don't eveninteract or look up.
Now there's a number of reasonsfor that as well.
And one of the big reasons isthe culture and the safety and
the sense of connection or lackof.
But this organization I was inwas amazing.
Everyone was really productive,people worked really well
together.
But over time, I started tonotice something.
(09:34):
There were cracks appearing,and there were those side
conversations I mentionedearlier.
And one of the biggest signsfor me that this had this was
backfiring, the niceness wasbackfiring for them, was the
number of people who wereshocked when they were put on a
performance management plan,right?
(09:56):
You know those plans.
HR comes in, says you're notperforming well, and this is the
standard you need to reach,this is how we're going to
support you to get there.
Yes, we're gonna give you allthis support.
Now, if someone is shocked whenthat kind of process comes in,
that tells me that they are notgetting open and clear
communication throughout theirwhole working life.
It should never be a shock.
(10:16):
And if it is a shock, thatmeans often people don't have
the tools to have thoseconversations or they don't
realize that they're they'relacking clarity in their
communication.
And more often than not, and Isay this because I've seen it
time and time again, I've seenpeople say to me, but I've I've
told them what they need to do.
And I say, How do you how didyou say it?
They replay it back, and Isaid, No, that person is gonna
(10:39):
have no idea that that's whatyou meant.
So in the spirit of being nice,sometimes we we fluff and we
water things down and we try andprotect people's feelings
because we don't want them to beupset.
But I tell you what, thosepeople who are being performance
managed out and some of thembeing let go because it's gone
(11:01):
too far, guarantee you that'sway more painful than feeling,
hearing up front that, oh,there's just something you need
to tweak, and this is how agreat way we could go forward.
What support do you need?
100% being exited out of theorganization or being put
through a formal performancemanagement process is way more
painful.
So we've got to reframe thisidea of when we're nice, we kind
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of withhold the real truth andwe soften it.
Like Brene Brown says, clear iskind.
We've got to be kind with thesethings.
And that's different from beingnice.
All right, so how do we goabout avoiding this problem of
niceness backfiring?
So the first thing I'm gonnainvite you to do is to notice
(11:44):
how people respond to you whenyou ask questions.
When you ask for theirfeedback, ask for their insight,
ask what they think aboutsomething, even ask for feedback
about yourself.
Do you get silence?
Do they give you all theirthoughts openly?
Do they give you just one thingand let you run with that?
Just notice what people do.
That can give you so muchinsight into the level of trust
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and comfort people have in beingcompletely open.
The second thing you could dois to notice how people respond
when someone shares somethingthat could be seen as critical
or negative.
I've seen this so many times.
There's a person in the roomwho has an incredible gift at
spotting all the potential risksthat we need to be looking at
(12:27):
for a project.
They raise those risks andpeople just shut them down or
they talk about them in thehallway about God, they're
always so negative.
Why?
Why do they do that?
And yes, maybe that personneeds a little bit of coaching
on how to raise those items in arespectful way.
And at the same time, we needto be very aware as leaders.
Are we taking a little bit ofnegativity personally when we've
(12:50):
put our heart and soul intomoving a project forward?
There's a bias in that.
Psychologically, we are biasedto when we say yes to something
and we've we've backed it, thatwe want to keep backing it.
And there's um there's a reallycool show that I might share in
the show notes that thatillustrates this so powerfully
and scarily.
They did an experiment, apsychological experiment that
(13:14):
had some of these seeds planted.
So when someone made a minicommitment, they would make a
bigger and bigger and biggercommitment because
psychologically we are wired toback ourselves really in that
way.
And they ended up committing acrime right at the end.
And these are people that wouldnever, on a daily basis, even
consider committing a crime.
So it's such a fascinating showto watch.
I'll have to dig it out, see ifI can share it in the show
(13:35):
notes for you.
So my point is notice howpeople respond when someone
brings up something that couldput a break on things or could
throw a spanner in the works orcould be seen as negative or
slowing things down.
How can you give airtime tothose people?
And how can you notice what thereaction is?
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Because if the rack reaction isto shut them down and to say
they're negative, then we're notseeing the value that that
person can bring.
And we're not giving them theskills that they need to be able
to contribute in a reallyconstructive way.
So this is where niceness canshut things down and be really,
really quiet negative.
The third thing that you can doto see if niceness is
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backfiring is to ask people.
Hey, just curious, on a scaleof one to ten, how safe do you
feel to raise a risk or concern?
Or maybe it's hey, have youever felt like you can't share
something that you think wouldbe really powerful for the room
to hear?
Just just ask people, go andnotice and go and see if there's
(14:42):
any form of hesitation in thatanswer.
That that's an answer initself.
So sometimes it's not whatpeople say because if the
culture is so nice, people willrespond with, oh no, no, of
course, of course I'll say, ofcourse I'm comfortable to to say
anything, right?
You've got to read between thelines, you've got to read the
body language, the pauses, thehesitations, the eye contact.
(15:03):
This is something I've beenstudying for so long.
And it's so, so powerful.
So it's one of the things I'mreally passionate about in in
terms of going into anorganization and just observing
everything that's going on, thethings that people don't see,
the systems that are workingagainst an organization, the
behaviors that on one hand arereally, really great, but
(15:24):
there's also some liabilities tothem and how to work across
those polarities.
So I trust that this has beenuseful for you.
And I just want to reiteratehere that being nice does really
matter.
It creates warmth, it createsconnection and care.
But when niceness becomes ashield against honesty,
(15:46):
discomfort, or pushback, itquietly limits our innovation,
our performance, and ourpsychological safety, which
we're learning now, is becomingmore and more important.
The focus has gone fromphysical safety in the workplace
now to psycho, psychosocialsafety as well.
So all of this is critical fororganizations.
(16:06):
It's even just in the end of Ilive in Victoria and Australia,
it's actually being enacted intothe law that here organizations
do need to look out for thesepsychosocial risks now.
It's a requirement in the law.
So this is one way you can youcan look out for these.
So our this ability to feelpsychologically safe is linked
(16:30):
to our ability to adapt.
And we need to be able to adaptas people, as leaders, as
organizations now more thanever.
So the real leadership workhere is knowing the difference
between nice and nicebackfiring.
So if you want to explore ifniceness is backfiring in your
team, feel free to reach out tome on email.
(16:51):
You can email me onjolynne@brillianceinspired.com.au.
Thank you once again, andalways remember you were born
for a reason.
It's time to thrive.