September 23, 2024 • 16 mins
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Ever wondered why some leaders thrive in solitude while others radiate energy in social settings? Discover the secrets behind introverted and extroverted leadership styles, as we explore the inherent biases in organisational structures that favour extroverts and often overlook the silent strengths of introverts. Drawing upon the wisdom of Carl Jung and insights from Susan Cain's "Quiet," we examine how these biases manifest from early childhood education to corporate hierarchies and how creating environments that appreciate diverse strengths can lead to organisational success.
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I am a Confidence and Success Coach for leaders, Organisational Development Consultant and independent Leadership Circle Profile® Certified Practitioner. Information shared about this tool is courtesy of Leadership Circle®, all rights reserved. www.leadershipcircle.com
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Jolynne rydz (00:00):
Who makes a better leader, an introvert or an
extrovert?
So what is an introvert and anextrovert?
There's a lot of different sortof definitions around this, but
the definition I like to use isaround energy and how you
recharge.
So an introvert tends to likesolitude, can perform and thrive
(00:22):
when things are quiet, whenthey have time to think and,
yeah, basically that, that sortof alone time.
And then an extrovert tends towant people around them, energy,
buzz, hustle.
There might be someone who'scomfortable working in a cafe or
a busy office, whereas theintrovert would love working
from home because they're intheir own environment and they
(00:44):
can control the noise.
Now, that's a spectrum, right.
You're not just all one or allthe other.
I think we are at differenttimes, but we have a preference
and a tendency towardsintroversion and extroversion.
You can love going out Like Ioften surprise people.
I love standing up and doing apublic speech or I love doing
karaoke, but I am highlyintroverted.
(01:06):
I need my alone time torecharge.
So that's why it often getsconfused with being shy and
socially awkward and all ofthese can kind of come with
being more introverted.
But fundamentally I think it'sabout the energy.
And why does this matter.
It matters because a lot of ourorganizational structures are
(01:28):
designed for extroverts.
So when I say structures, Imean businesses, workplaces,
schools, universities.
They are designed for peoplewho are perceived to be more
confident, more sociable andmore switched on, even when that
might not necessarily be thecase.
For example, in a meeting, ifyou were to see someone stumble
(01:53):
and go I'm not really sure whenthey get asked a question versus
someone who goes nope.
This is exactly what we need todo.
We make a judgment, whether weknow it or not, whether it's
conscious or unconscious.
We make a judgment, whether weknow it or not, whether it's
conscious or unconscious.
We make a judgment on thatperson's ability to perform
their job based on the way theyanswered that question when they
were put on the spot.
(02:13):
Now, an extrovert is probablymore equipped to deal with that
kind of high pressureenvironment A lot of people in
the room, little time to thinkversus an introvert that needs
that time and space and isbetter in a one-on-one
environment because they can godeep and they can connect
without getting overwhelmed.
Another example is the way werecruit.
(02:34):
Interview.
Panels are still an incrediblycommon and still useful tool,
but they are generally going tosuit an extrovert over an
introvert.
An introvert walking into thatmeeting has to get over their
confidence to know who they are,be able to articulate that, be
able to interact with more thanone person in the room and
(02:58):
self-promote themselves on topof all that.
So an extrovert walking inprobably doesn't tend to have
all of that when they walk in.
So we're already walking in ona different level.
And then when we think abouthierarchy, so the higher you go
in an organization generally,the more okay you need to be
with public speaking andfacilitating.
Over the years I've seen a lotof incredibly talented leaders
(03:22):
get promoted to that executivelevel and then get quite nervous
and almost shocked and they gothrough this uncomfortable
period of not wanting to speakwhen everyone's looking to them
to hear what they have to sayand just generally not being
able to communicate withconfidence on a large scale in
(03:42):
front of a room of hundreds,maybe thousands of people.
So it is an expectation thatwhen you're up there that you
can do that quite easily.
So for an extrovert that'sprobably going to come more
easily to someone like that thansomeone who's more introverted
because they have an introverthas less practice in those kind
of scenarios.
So there's definitely a biasthat extroverts make better
(04:05):
leaders, and psychology startedto pick up on some of this bias
in the 1920s where they realizedthat there was pressure to
project confidence.
In 1921, Carl Jung stated thatintroverts were educators and
promoters of culture, and hewent on to talk about how what
(04:28):
an introvert does and theirinternal awareness of how
they're operating is actuallyreally needed in this world.
And he also was alreadynoticing that attached with that
strength was an embarrassmentthat was kind of unfounded and a
prejudice as well.
And if you want to read moreabout that, I highly recommend
(04:48):
the book Quiet by Susan Cain thePower of Introverts in a World
that Can't Stop Talking Reallygreat book the Power of
Introverts in a World that Can'tStop Talking Really great book.
And another example is when Isee kids.
So I've got two young kids andthey're in early childhood
education.
What I notice is sometimes ifyou see a playground full of
(05:10):
kids running around, there's theones that are zooming,
confident, laughing andboisterous and there's the ones
that are hanging back.
They look nervous, they lookoverwhelmed, they have like a
stunned look on their facebecause they don't know how to
interact.
They're not sure what all thesekids are doing.
They're zipping around fasterthan their brain can process and
they're also trying to followthe rules and trying to put all
(05:31):
that together and it's a veryoverwhelming kind of environment
.
Now, there's nothing wrong witheither of those two scenarios
or anything in between, but whatI notice is the reaction the
adults have to them.
So some people do find that thequiet hanging back kid there's
something wrong with them.
Hey, are they okay?
You know, why aren't theyplaying with the other kids?
(05:52):
Why are they always playing bythemselves?
You know, they need to be a bitmore confident.
They're only like three yearsold and then the excited,
boisterous ones tend to get alot more attention and because
it is easier to interact withthem.
But it all comes down to safetyand trust.
So when that introverted kidfeels safe, they will come out
(06:12):
of their shell and be that moreboisterous, connected, animated
one.
So it's about appreciating thatdifferent environments actually
let different types of peoplethrive.
I've also seen in a restaurant acustomer unhappy with their
meal wanting to return.
(06:32):
It speaks to the wait personand makes a complaint and the
wait person's really in it likeshaking, going oh yes, sorry,
I'm sorry, sorry, yeah, I'll fixthat up for you.
And the customer just gets morefrustrated and frustrated, more
assertive, more loud, whichthen makes this poor staff
member just shrivel even more infear.
(06:53):
And so then the manager comesout.
Now the manager did happen tobe more confident, and then I
could just literally watch thecustomer actually tone down
their language, their aggression, and speak more level-headedly
with the confident person, likethe confidence reassured them
that their solution, theirproblem, was going to be
(07:16):
resolved.
So again, I think this is allunconscious stuff that was
happening.
Another thing I see happen a lotis in meetings.
So someone will say something,maybe a bit more quietly, maybe
in a bit more of a long-windedway in a meeting, and then the
meeting will go on on, and thensomeone else says it more
confidently, a little bit moreconcisely, and everyone goes oh
(07:39):
my goodness, how have we notthought of that before?
That is so good, well done.
And then the first person isthinking what I just said, that
why do they get noticed?
And I don't.
And so it can be incrediblyfrustrating when you are unable
to articulate the wonderfulthoughts that go on as an
(08:01):
introvert in a way that can beheard.
So what I'm proposing is that wecould all be intentionally
introverted when we choose to.
So what I mean by this is thatthis skill being intentionally
introverted the beauty ofintroversion is often
undeveloped skill in bothintroverts and extroverts.
(08:21):
What I mean by this is there'sso many courses and programs on
public speaking, communication,being more confident, and
there's less so in you knowreally, but it's increasing now
in terms of really starting tolisten, connect and more
empathetic and analyze and dothat whole systems thinking and
(08:41):
all of the things that yougenerally need to be more quiet,
thoughtful space to be able todo by researchers at Florida
International University andthey found that, whilst
introversion and extroversionhad similar results in leaders
in terms of their results andimpacts, introverted leaders
(09:04):
felt much less supported andthey felt like they had to be
more extroverted to get the jobdone.
So imagine this like imaginehaving to show up to work every
day and be someone you're, notjust to feel valued or just to
actually be respected or getyour job done.
That's an incredibly incredibleenergy drain that I just want
(09:25):
to highlight for people that areintroverted but always told
that they need to be moreextroverted to get noticed, to
have success.
So what I'm saying is, whenyou're intentionally introverted
, to get noticed, to havesuccess.
So what I'm saying is, whenyou're intentionally introverted
, you can still have success.
So it's about developing thisin a way that is an alignment
for you and it's a skill thatpeople that are more extroverted
(09:45):
can use as well, because ithelps us to balance.
I'm always about balance andbeing able to broaden your skill
set and have the ability to useit when you think it's going to
fit best.
So when we develop that in away that's in alignment for the
individual, that's when we'restarting to tap into that
magnetic authenticity.
(10:09):
About 10 years ago, I wassitting in a leadership
development program and it was asix months long program and at
the time I was incredibly shy,incredibly introverted.
I would sit in those kind ofenvironments there were 30
people in the room and I wouldbe comparing myself to
everything that they're saying.
What would I know?
How?
You know, they're all so smart,they're all so wise, they're so
(10:32):
confident.
And here I am with my heartracing, my face burning, wanting
to contribute, but terrifiedthat other people would think I
was stupid.
As part of the program, I made acommitment to myself that I
would share and speak up morethan I had in the past.
And so when I finally got thecourage to do that had in the
(10:57):
past.
And so when I finally got thecourage to do that, wow, the
feedback was incredible.
People came up to me after thesession saying, wow, that was
really insightful.
I really thank you for sharing.
And the more I did this, themore I just got over that
burning fear and just shared it,the more I realized that
there's an incredible impact youcan have when you're
intentionally introverted,because when you're sitting
(11:18):
there and waiting and listeningto what everything else has been
said and piecing it alltogether and then coming out
with what you think is the rightway forward, there's value in
that.
So there's a skill in observingand waiting for that right
moment to share.
And because I rarely spoke,people actually leaned in more
when I did so.
(11:39):
I had to realize that that wasa strength rather than a failure
and a fault of mine.
So there are three ways thatyou can be intentionally
introverted when you choose tobe so.
The first one is to know yourintroverted strengths.
So know them.
What are they?
What do they look like?
(11:59):
Are you great at listeningdeeply?
Are you great at connectingwith someone and building
rapport, maybe one-on-one, veryquickly.
Are you able to sit back andassess a room and see what's
going on and read theundercurrents and almost tell
what people are thinking andfeeling and responding to
someone who's maybe more vocal,and you can kind of see what's
(12:24):
happening, the stuff that's notbeing said.
And if you're an extrovert, howcould you benefit by doing more
of some of these things?
How could that help bringbalance to your leadership
strengths and your skill set?
So know your introvertedstrengths and embrace them.
(12:45):
So the second way you can bemore intentionally introverted
is to use these strengths withintention.
So once again, it's thattoolkit Once you know your
strengths, you can decide whenyou want to use them.
So, as an example, I oftenfacilitate workshops and when
(13:07):
I'm doing that, I am at thefront and I'm tapping into that
extroverted energy which I cantap into, but it drains me.
So that's the difference itdrains me instead of energizing
me.
So it drains me.
So then I know afterwards whensomeone comes up to me and says,
hey, that really resonated, butI want some more help with this
(13:27):
.
Can you help me with this?
I then get energized because Ican tap into going.
Oh, I can hear you nowone-on-one, your unique
situation and I can give yousome really tailored insights
into how to step forward withthat.
So it's knowing when you needto flex to bring out your more
extroverted tendencies and dialdown the introverted ones and
(13:49):
then go the other way.
Now when you do that, like Isaid, for an extrovert it's
going to be really draining tosit back and, you know, be more
quiet.
It's probably really drainingto work from home where you're
quite isolated unless you have abig, noisy family around you.
So it's about the third step inbeing intentionally introverted
(14:13):
is recharge.
In being intentionallyintroverted is recharge, so
recharge in the way that suitsfor you.
So after I facilitated asession, I need to just sit down
, eat a meal on my own.
It's incredibly fueling tonourish my body with food and
also just be on my own with myown thoughts, processing
everything that went on and whatthe opportunities are and where
(14:36):
we could take things next andjust recharge.
So what recharging looks like isgoing to be different for you,
but again, do it intentionallyand do it with the full
embodiment that it's okay torecharge, so it's okay for these
different environments to bedraining for you and give
yourself that permission andthat space to recharge, because
it's so for these differentenvironments to be draining for
you, and give yourself thatpermission and that space to
(14:56):
recharge because it's so, soimportant.
So I'd love for you to shareall of the ways that you're
trying to be more intentionallyintroverted and how that's
working for you.
So you can find me on LinkedIn,just send me a DM or post a
comment on one of my threads andI would love to hear all about
(15:17):
it.
So here's to being moreintentionally introverted.
Who makes a better leader, an introvert or an
extrovert?
So what is an introvert and anextrovert?
There's a lot of different sortof definitions around this, but
the definition I like to use isaround energy and how you
recharge.
So an introvert tends to likesolitude, can perform and thrive
(00:22):
when things are quiet, whenthey have time to think and,
yeah, basically that, that sortof alone time.
And then an extrovert tends towant people around them, energy,
buzz, hustle.
There might be someone who'scomfortable working in a cafe or
a busy office, whereas theintrovert would love working
from home because they're intheir own environment and they
(00:44):
can control the noise.
Now, that's a spectrum, right.
You're not just all one or allthe other.
I think we are at differenttimes, but we have a preference
and a tendency towardsintroversion and extroversion.
You can love going out Like Ioften surprise people.
I love standing up and doing apublic speech or I love doing
karaoke, but I am highlyintroverted.
(01:06):
I need my alone time torecharge.
So that's why it often getsconfused with being shy and
socially awkward and all ofthese can kind of come with
being more introverted.
But fundamentally I think it'sabout the energy.
And why does this matter.
It matters because a lot of ourorganizational structures are
(01:28):
designed for extroverts.
So when I say structures, Imean businesses, workplaces,
schools, universities.
They are designed for peoplewho are perceived to be more
confident, more sociable andmore switched on, even when that
might not necessarily be thecase.
For example, in a meeting, ifyou were to see someone stumble
(01:53):
and go I'm not really sure whenthey get asked a question versus
someone who goes nope.
This is exactly what we need todo.
We make a judgment, whether weknow it or not, whether it's
conscious or unconscious.
We make a judgment, whether weknow it or not, whether it's
conscious or unconscious.
We make a judgment on thatperson's ability to perform
their job based on the way theyanswered that question when they
were put on the spot.
(02:13):
Now, an extrovert is probablymore equipped to deal with that
kind of high pressureenvironment A lot of people in
the room, little time to thinkversus an introvert that needs
that time and space and isbetter in a one-on-one
environment because they can godeep and they can connect
without getting overwhelmed.
Another example is the way werecruit.
(02:34):
Interview.
Panels are still an incrediblycommon and still useful tool,
but they are generally going tosuit an extrovert over an
introvert.
An introvert walking into thatmeeting has to get over their
confidence to know who they are,be able to articulate that, be
able to interact with more thanone person in the room and
(02:58):
self-promote themselves on topof all that.
So an extrovert walking inprobably doesn't tend to have
all of that when they walk in.
So we're already walking in ona different level.
And then when we think abouthierarchy, so the higher you go
in an organization generally,the more okay you need to be
with public speaking andfacilitating.
Over the years I've seen a lotof incredibly talented leaders
(03:22):
get promoted to that executivelevel and then get quite nervous
and almost shocked and they gothrough this uncomfortable
period of not wanting to speakwhen everyone's looking to them
to hear what they have to sayand just generally not being
able to communicate withconfidence on a large scale in
(03:42):
front of a room of hundreds,maybe thousands of people.
So it is an expectation thatwhen you're up there that you
can do that quite easily.
So for an extrovert that'sprobably going to come more
easily to someone like that thansomeone who's more introverted
because they have an introverthas less practice in those kind
of scenarios.
So there's definitely a biasthat extroverts make better
(04:05):
leaders, and psychology startedto pick up on some of this bias
in the 1920s where they realizedthat there was pressure to
project confidence.
In 1921, Carl Jung stated thatintroverts were educators and
promoters of culture, and hewent on to talk about how what
(04:28):
an introvert does and theirinternal awareness of how
they're operating is actuallyreally needed in this world.
And he also was alreadynoticing that attached with that
strength was an embarrassmentthat was kind of unfounded and a
prejudice as well.
And if you want to read moreabout that, I highly recommend
(04:48):
the book Quiet by Susan Cain thePower of Introverts in a World
that Can't Stop Talking Reallygreat book the Power of
Introverts in a World that Can'tStop Talking Really great book.
And another example is when Isee kids.
So I've got two young kids andthey're in early childhood
education.
What I notice is sometimes ifyou see a playground full of
(05:10):
kids running around, there's theones that are zooming,
confident, laughing andboisterous and there's the ones
that are hanging back.
They look nervous, they lookoverwhelmed, they have like a
stunned look on their facebecause they don't know how to
interact.
They're not sure what all thesekids are doing.
They're zipping around fasterthan their brain can process and
they're also trying to followthe rules and trying to put all
(05:31):
that together and it's a veryoverwhelming kind of environment
.
Now, there's nothing wrong witheither of those two scenarios
or anything in between, but whatI notice is the reaction the
adults have to them.
So some people do find that thequiet hanging back kid there's
something wrong with them.
Hey, are they okay?
You know, why aren't theyplaying with the other kids?
(05:52):
Why are they always playing bythemselves?
You know, they need to be a bitmore confident.
They're only like three yearsold and then the excited,
boisterous ones tend to get alot more attention and because
it is easier to interact withthem.
But it all comes down to safetyand trust.
So when that introverted kidfeels safe, they will come out
(06:12):
of their shell and be that moreboisterous, connected, animated
one.
So it's about appreciating thatdifferent environments actually
let different types of peoplethrive.
I've also seen in a restaurant acustomer unhappy with their
meal wanting to return.
(06:32):
It speaks to the wait personand makes a complaint and the
wait person's really in it likeshaking, going oh yes, sorry,
I'm sorry, sorry, yeah, I'll fixthat up for you.
And the customer just gets morefrustrated and frustrated, more
assertive, more loud, whichthen makes this poor staff
member just shrivel even more infear.
(06:53):
And so then the manager comesout.
Now the manager did happen tobe more confident, and then I
could just literally watch thecustomer actually tone down
their language, their aggression, and speak more level-headedly
with the confident person, likethe confidence reassured them
that their solution, theirproblem, was going to be
(07:16):
resolved.
So again, I think this is allunconscious stuff that was
happening.
Another thing I see happen a lotis in meetings.
So someone will say something,maybe a bit more quietly, maybe
in a bit more of a long-windedway in a meeting, and then the
meeting will go on on, and thensomeone else says it more
confidently, a little bit moreconcisely, and everyone goes oh
(07:39):
my goodness, how have we notthought of that before?
That is so good, well done.
And then the first person isthinking what I just said, that
why do they get noticed?
And I don't.
And so it can be incrediblyfrustrating when you are unable
to articulate the wonderfulthoughts that go on as an
(08:01):
introvert in a way that can beheard.
So what I'm proposing is that wecould all be intentionally
introverted when we choose to.
So what I mean by this is thatthis skill being intentionally
introverted the beauty ofintroversion is often
undeveloped skill in bothintroverts and extroverts.
(08:21):
What I mean by this is there'sso many courses and programs on
public speaking, communication,being more confident, and
there's less so in you knowreally, but it's increasing now
in terms of really starting tolisten, connect and more
empathetic and analyze and dothat whole systems thinking and
(08:41):
all of the things that yougenerally need to be more quiet,
thoughtful space to be able todo by researchers at Florida
International University andthey found that, whilst
introversion and extroversionhad similar results in leaders
in terms of their results andimpacts, introverted leaders
(09:04):
felt much less supported andthey felt like they had to be
more extroverted to get the jobdone.
So imagine this like imaginehaving to show up to work every
day and be someone you're, notjust to feel valued or just to
actually be respected or getyour job done.
That's an incredibly incredibleenergy drain that I just want
(09:25):
to highlight for people that areintroverted but always told
that they need to be moreextroverted to get noticed, to
have success.
So what I'm saying is, whenyou're intentionally introverted
, to get noticed, to havesuccess.
So what I'm saying is, whenyou're intentionally introverted
, you can still have success.
So it's about developing thisin a way that is an alignment
for you and it's a skill thatpeople that are more extroverted
(09:45):
can use as well, because ithelps us to balance.
I'm always about balance andbeing able to broaden your skill
set and have the ability to useit when you think it's going to
fit best.
So when we develop that in away that's in alignment for the
individual, that's when we'restarting to tap into that
magnetic authenticity.
(10:09):
About 10 years ago, I wassitting in a leadership
development program and it was asix months long program and at
the time I was incredibly shy,incredibly introverted.
I would sit in those kind ofenvironments there were 30
people in the room and I wouldbe comparing myself to
everything that they're saying.
What would I know?
How?
You know, they're all so smart,they're all so wise, they're so
(10:32):
confident.
And here I am with my heartracing, my face burning, wanting
to contribute, but terrifiedthat other people would think I
was stupid.
As part of the program, I made acommitment to myself that I
would share and speak up morethan I had in the past.
And so when I finally got thecourage to do that had in the
(10:57):
past.
And so when I finally got thecourage to do that, wow, the
feedback was incredible.
People came up to me after thesession saying, wow, that was
really insightful.
I really thank you for sharing.
And the more I did this, themore I just got over that
burning fear and just shared it,the more I realized that
there's an incredible impact youcan have when you're
intentionally introverted,because when you're sitting
(11:18):
there and waiting and listeningto what everything else has been
said and piecing it alltogether and then coming out
with what you think is the rightway forward, there's value in
that.
So there's a skill in observingand waiting for that right
moment to share.
And because I rarely spoke,people actually leaned in more
when I did so.
(11:39):
I had to realize that that wasa strength rather than a failure
and a fault of mine.
So there are three ways thatyou can be intentionally
introverted when you choose tobe so.
The first one is to know yourintroverted strengths.
So know them.
What are they?
What do they look like?
(11:59):
Are you great at listeningdeeply?
Are you great at connectingwith someone and building
rapport, maybe one-on-one, veryquickly.
Are you able to sit back andassess a room and see what's
going on and read theundercurrents and almost tell
what people are thinking andfeeling and responding to
someone who's maybe more vocal,and you can kind of see what's
(12:24):
happening, the stuff that's notbeing said.
And if you're an extrovert, howcould you benefit by doing more
of some of these things?
How could that help bringbalance to your leadership
strengths and your skill set?
So know your introvertedstrengths and embrace them.
(12:45):
So the second way you can bemore intentionally introverted
is to use these strengths withintention.
So once again, it's thattoolkit Once you know your
strengths, you can decide whenyou want to use them.
So, as an example, I oftenfacilitate workshops and when
(13:07):
I'm doing that, I am at thefront and I'm tapping into that
extroverted energy which I cantap into, but it drains me.
So that's the difference itdrains me instead of energizing
me.
So it drains me.
So then I know afterwards whensomeone comes up to me and says,
hey, that really resonated, butI want some more help with this
(13:27):
.
Can you help me with this?
I then get energized because Ican tap into going.
Oh, I can hear you nowone-on-one, your unique
situation and I can give yousome really tailored insights
into how to step forward withthat.
So it's knowing when you needto flex to bring out your more
extroverted tendencies and dialdown the introverted ones and
(13:49):
then go the other way.
Now when you do that, like Isaid, for an extrovert it's
going to be really draining tosit back and, you know, be more
quiet.
It's probably really drainingto work from home where you're
quite isolated unless you have abig, noisy family around you.
So it's about the third step inbeing intentionally introverted
(14:13):
is recharge.
In being intentionallyintroverted is recharge, so
recharge in the way that suitsfor you.
So after I facilitated asession, I need to just sit down
, eat a meal on my own.
It's incredibly fueling tonourish my body with food and
also just be on my own with myown thoughts, processing
everything that went on and whatthe opportunities are and where
(14:36):
we could take things next andjust recharge.
So what recharging looks like isgoing to be different for you,
but again, do it intentionallyand do it with the full
embodiment that it's okay torecharge, so it's okay for these
different environments to bedraining for you and give
yourself that permission andthat space to recharge, because
it's so for these differentenvironments to be draining for
you, and give yourself thatpermission and that space to
(14:56):
recharge because it's so, soimportant.
So I'd love for you to shareall of the ways that you're
trying to be more intentionallyintroverted and how that's
working for you.
So you can find me on LinkedIn,just send me a DM or post a
comment on one of my threads andI would love to hear all about
(15:17):
it.
So here's to being moreintentionally introverted.
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