February 6, 2025 • 46 mins
In this powerful episode of Man: A Quest to Find Meaning, we explore the journey of healing from boarding school trauma and overcoming addiction to find clarity and purpose in life. Join host James Ainsworth as he dives into a candid conversation about the emotional scars left by early experiences, the role of addiction as a coping mechanism, and the steps toward recovery and self-discovery.
🔥 What You’ll Learn in This Episode:
✔️ How boarding school experiences can shape identity and mental health.
✔️ The connection between trauma and addiction—and how to break free.
✔️ Practical strategies for healing emotional wounds and finding inner peace.
✔️ Why facing your past is essential for creating a meaningful future.
✔️ Inspiring insights on resilience, vulnerability, and redefining manhood.
💡 Who This Episode Is For:
→ Men struggling with unresolved childhood trauma or seeking recovery.
→ Those looking for practical advice on healing emotional wounds.
→ Listeners searching for stories of resilience and personal transformation.
→ Anyone who feels stuck in their past and wants to move forward with clarity.
🎧 Subscribe & Listen Now to Man: A Quest to Find Meaning for more heartfelt conversations about healing, masculinity, and living with purpose.
Piers Cross is an author, a film maker, & a leadership coach specialising in the area of peak performance, and trauma, especially boarding school. He also runs a podcast around these themes, called An Evolving Man. He is currently producing a documentary called, Boarding On Insanity.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
In today's episode, we have adeep dive into boarding schools
and the impact they can have onpeople's lives from PTSD,
addiction, workaholism, andemotional disconnection.
And we explore the nature ofanger, its potential effects and
the practical strategies formanaging it effectively.
Welcome to Man (00:23):
A Quest to Find Meaning, where we help men
navigate modern life, find theirtrue purpose, and redefine
manhood.
I'm your host, James, and eachweek, inspiring guests share
their journeys of overcomingfear Embracing vulnerability and
finding success.
(00:44):
From experts to everyday heroes.
Get practical advice andpowerful insights.
Struggling with career,relationships or personal
growth?
We've got you covered.
Join us on Man Quest to FindMeaning.
Now, let's dive in.
James (01:01):
We can heal from trauma.
We can move from post traumaticstress to post traumatic growth.
Good morning, peers.
What do you mean by thatstatement?
Piers (01:15):
Yeah, thank you.
I think what I mean by that isin my own life, I thought I was
just damaged and there was noway out and it was that
realization that I could heal.
And that there was a pathway,and I see that the work of
(01:36):
Stephen Joseph, talking aboutpost traumatic growth, that
actually our wound can becomeour gift.
James (01:43):
Okay, so it's kind of like, we have all these things
like anxiety and fear, maybe sayfor example, the fear of, fear
of a snake.
But that fear of a snake isalmost a gift because that fear
can almost become your friend,which then can teach you the
(02:04):
lessons.
Is that kind of right?
Piers (02:06):
That's it.
And then also, then we can helppeople who've been frightened of
snakes, go, well, this is what Idid.
And I think the wound becomesthe gold.
I mean, Robert Bly in his book,Iron John, he said that our
wound is where the greatest giftwill be that we'll give back to
society.
At the end of Bessel van derKolk's book, The Body Keeps the
(02:27):
Score, The Psychiatrist, he saysthat often those people like
Nelson Mandela, the OprahWinfrey's have had real bad
Trauma in their lives, butthey've turned it around and
they've given their gift out AndI think that's what we're saying
here is that we it can be growthrather than it just being You
(02:49):
know before we started recordingIt's like taking us from minus
10 the trauma to 0 but then from0 to plus 10 Actually, I can be
in purpose on purpose in life.
I can give of my gift.
Whatever that might be
James (03:05):
It's almost like we have these things anxiety rejection
procrastination.
But these things that we almosttry to run away from, the more I
feel as if you run away from it,the more it kind of chases you.
But as soon as you allowyourself to hear.
What it wants to say.
It's almost say it's almost thenit becomes your gift.
(03:26):
So, for example, the other day,I, I've gone through a phase, a
big phase, where I getprocrastinate, I get
overwhelmed.
But the other day, I decided toturn it around.
And I asked myself, what doesthe overwhelm want to teach me?
And it was kind of like, justkind of pull yourself back in.
(03:48):
And it said, just focus on theone thing that you can do now,
rather than trying to focus onthis massive goal with all these
different branches.
And it's just said, focus onwhat you can do in this exact
moment.
Piers (04:05):
Mm.
That's beautiful.
That's it.
Jason Selk, in his book,Executive Toughness, he talks
about, they says, you know, whenwe feel overwhelmed, what is the
one thing I can do?
Not the 10, 000 things.
No, what's the one thing thatwill make this better?
And I think often in trauma andwhat you've just said is
(04:25):
fascinating and I think I'd takeit in another step Which is we
have to feel it as well becauseit's following us But if we just
stop and bring it somaticallyinto the body How does this
actually feel and oftenunderneath that is the gold?
It's the grief but the flip sideof the grief is joy We run away,
(04:48):
we don't want to feel the grief,but actually, that's golden,
because that opens our hearts.
It gives us empathy for otherpeople.
James (04:57):
Can you tell me about yourself, please?
Piers (05:01):
Yeah, so, I work as a coach.
I work mainly with leaders,executives, and the specialties
around boarding school.
So I help people who've been toboarding school.
Maybe they had a difficult timeor they are suffering the
consequences.
Now there's often what we callboarding school syndrome is a
(05:25):
specific set of symptoms.
Addictions.
We've got workaholism, strugglein intimacy, difficulty feeling
emotions, depression, suicidalthoughts.
These often accumulate andpeople don't realise it's often
linked into their experiences atboarding school.
They just think, Oh, that's justme.
(05:46):
But actually, so that's my work.
And I'm also the producer of adocumentary called Boarding on
Insanity, realising that just,How many of our global leaders
have been to boarding school,Mark Zuckerberg, the head of the
FBI, Christopher Ray, who's justresigned, head of the Church of
England, who's just resigned,Justin Welby, Donald Trump,
(06:11):
Boris Johnson, et cetera, etcetera, et cetera.
So we're making a documentary togo, what's the impact of trauma?
on our leaders?
Are our leaders traumatized?
How might that impact the restof the world?
So that's something I'm doing.
I run a podcast.
My day to day work is reallyworking with leaders,
(06:33):
executives, people who've beento boarding school or some form
of trauma.
James (06:38):
That brings to mind, and obviously I always try to avoid
talking about Politics oranything like that by a number
of Donald Trump, wheneverspeeches said, if you want to
overcome depression work harder,and I was like, oh, my God, how
can you say that kind of thing?
(06:58):
And that just goes to show that.
The workaholism, the lack ofidea of your own emotions and,
and probably the impact thatcould have on people who heard
that.
Piers (07:14):
Yeah, I think we do live in a very driven world.
And, you know, it's like if youlook at the brain, and this is
the work of Dr.
Ian McGilchrist, we have leftand right hemispheres of the
brain.
One is more analytical.
And one is more intuitive, moreinward.
(07:36):
And, we in the West It's justthe, you know, the left side of
the brain, analytical, morework, push, push, push.
But this is more the feelingsense, the, the, uh, you know,
the right side of the brain,it's more feeling, it's
intuitive, it's creative.
(07:56):
And I feel both need to bemerged.
Nurtured.
And what, when we have both inbalance, it's called hemi
sinking.
And I just feel we're a, we'reout of balance.
You know, we see how we treatthe earth.
That shows me an out, we're outof balance.
We haven't gone within.
We're always out, out, out.
(08:17):
And actually, I feel greatleadership, and this is what
Warren Bennis, Koosers andPosner in their book Leadership
Challenge says, is we've got tostart going within.
We've got to lead ourselvesfirst.
James (08:31):
It's an idea that's almost as well, I just, kind of
it brings to mind the masculineand the feminine.
So the masculine side of thingsis the taking the action, doing
the work and then the femaleside the feminine, not
necessarily the female, thefeminine um, the sense of
surrender.
So almost, that feels almostlike hemi thinking, so the
(08:54):
action, as soon as you take anaction step, surrender, then
take some more action, and thensurrender.
And it's almost that sense ofallowing ourselves to do what we
need to do, but then flowingwith the universe, or flowing
with, if you use the word, God,kind of thing.
Piers (09:14):
Yeah, yeah, perfect.
It's that it's like, if you lookat martial arts, you know, I've
done martial arts over a numberof years and particular Aikido
and the Japanese.
And it's the idea is the morerelaxed you are.
And I've heard this a BrazilianJiu Jitsu as well.
They said the more relaxed youare, the better you are.
People often think, Oh, no, ifyou're really strong and you
(09:36):
got, you know, you're kind ofrigid like that.
Well, actually that shows youyou're weaker, you're easier to
submit.
And so.
It is important for us.
To, to act, but in a relaxedway, it's softness.
And it's like, if you think ofwater, you know, water will move
through anything.
It's, you know, and that's a lotin martial arts is flowing of
(10:02):
energy.
James (10:04):
So where did, where did your journey with boarding
school begin?
Piers (10:08):
Yeah.
So I went to boarding schoolfrom age 11 to just before my
18th birthday.
So I was there for seven years.
And on the surface, I was seenas a success.
I was good at sports.
I was captain of athletics,first 15 rugby, first 11
football and I was in a rockband and I went on, left
(10:29):
boarding school and went on to atop business school,
international business school,France, worked in Paris, London.
And then in my twenties, Istarted to have a breakdown.
Within a few weeks, I'd lost myfather, got cancer, eventually
died.
Uh, I spit up for my partner.
I left my home, quit my job.
(10:51):
And I was essentially homeless.
And it was around that time thatI suddenly realized that
boarding school, there was animpact there.
And I came across a book, thesynchronicities, uh, went on
retreat.
And I suddenly had theunderstanding that boarding
school had been horrific.
I had so much anger and Irealized, yeah, I'd been
(11:14):
sexually abused while I wasthere.
Uh, one of my friends hadcommitted suicide and the school
decided after, you know, thefriend had committed suicide
that we needed to go and see thepriest and the priest sexually
abused me as he tried to do withother people as well.
He was just got out of prisonrecently.
(11:34):
And so, That was my experienceand that just started.
So I was mid twenties, startedto have a real breakdown and I
went to live in a Buddhistmonastery and I went just for 10
days.
I just needed some time out, butended up staying over a thousand
days, three and a half years.
I ordained as a novice monk andI worked with a yungi in the
(11:58):
nab.
Analyst and it was like justprocessing a lot of what I'd
been through as a child, lots oftears.
I tried to commit suicide, selfharmed, but I came out the other
side.
So that was my experience and I,I see that my work, it's a bit
like.
Beginning with my own journeyand I'm like, okay, it's just me
(12:19):
and then realizing actually noThere's other people who've been
through this experience as wellat boarding school There's lots
of stories and then I started todo some investigation.
I started to read the books ofYou know well known exporters
and you realize Oh my God,almost to a tee, they've had
most of them horrific times.
(12:40):
And then the second third partis, well, what's the impact on
the rest of us?
If these people have been tothese schools, had horrific
times, and you realize there's alot of data out there that the,
you know, Peter Levine in hiswork, he says the effects of
unresolved trauma can bedevastating and therefore If
(13:02):
boarding school is a trauma, somany of our leaders have been
traumatized, how is that goingto affect their, their decision
making?
And that's really my work now isworking both with leaders, but
also, you know, creating thisdocumentary, which will be out
in the next couple of months.
James (13:22):
So you talked about some of your traumas that you went
through.
How did you start to look, delvea bit deeper into these traumas
so that you could kind ofunderstand?
What happened so that you couldgrow from it.
Piers (13:38):
Yeah, great question.
And I'm not sure, I mean,essentially when I started to
look within was when I startedto work doing one to one.
You know, I think for me,boarding school, it's a complex
trauma, complex PTSD.
You know, we have PTSD.
(13:59):
It's one thing which happens.
PT, CPTSD, complex PTSD is whenthat thing happens over and over
again.
So for us at boarding school Youknow, we're being separated from
home over and over again, so itmeans it's complex.
So I began seeing therapists,but it didn't really work.
(14:21):
It was only really when I beganto work with this Jungian
analyst, and I started to workwith dreams and the unconscious.
And I think that was my pathwayinto, because people could say
to me, Oh, you're a good personor you're this or that.
I couldn't hear it.
I was too dissociated, but toactually start writing my dreams
(14:43):
down, it was my dreams speakingto me.
And I was do, you know, theywere nightmares night after
night after night, me beingkilled, you know, being, um,
Types of horrible things.
Uh, and I then realized, Oh myGod, that's my inner world.
My inner world is reallytroubled.
(15:03):
So that's how I went deep wasthrough doing unconscious work,
dream work.
What I do with my clients now isI use what's called EFT matrix
re imprinting, which is asimilar work.
We're going into theunconscious.
What's your unconscious saying?
Because often when we are justdoing talk therapy, or we're
(15:26):
just coaching, it's just theprefrontal cortex.
But our trauma is stored in theamygdala, in the limbic system.
The reptilian part of the brain,and when we work unconsciously,
we access that.
Whereas often just by talking,we're not accessing that part of
the brain.
That's why, for example, I knowyou work as a firefighter.
(15:49):
Some people might have been in afire, and then any instance of
fire or smell of smoke, theiramygdala is going to go off.
And it's going to keep going offuntil they look at that
unconscious.
And there are tools andprocesses that we can do, coming
back to that question, that wecan heal.
(16:10):
And, you know, whether it'sdream work, whether it's matrix
re imprinting, whether it'sother things, we, we can heal
these traumas.
James (16:18):
Was there any specific things, like, with the dream,
was there a specific dream thatkept repeating that just
literally said, and it had anaha moment?
Piers (16:30):
Not particularly.
I mean, my Jungian analyst, um,She said to me, write your
dreams down.
So I would wake up every night,two or three times, and I write
my dreams down.
So I could be awake an hour ortwo in the night writing my
dreams down.
I'd do pages and pages of them.
And the theme was, there was alot of violence in them.
(16:52):
I was either being shot at, Iwas fighting, you know.
And so it was just showing mehow much anger I had inside.
And I think When I was able toseparate almost and see that
angry part, then the tearsstarted to come.
I started to grieve.
And I think that was the key forme.
I think often, sometimes traumawe hold onto it with too
(17:16):
frightened of grieving, but whenwe do, that's when we can start.
Letting it go it feelsoverwhelming because especially
if you you know You've you'vegot complex PTSD and it feels
like this reservoir of emotion.
It feels oh my god, if I letthat out That's gonna swamp me
And so what we do is just liftthe sluice gate up little bit by
(17:39):
little bit little bit of tearsrelease A little bit of tears
and then eventually we candismantle that reservoir wall
and it's just a beautifulflowing river.
This is our emotion.
And I see in Britain we have asociety which is stiff upper
lip.
We damn up those emotions.
Boys don't cry.
(18:01):
And actually it's, the researchis now showing that to be
emotionally intelligent, to beable to connect to your
authenticity, your vulnerabilityis a greater.
predictor of future success thanacademic performance.
James (18:20):
With regards to your own anger, how was it that you kind
of started to release, how did,how did you release that anger?
of yours?
Piers (18:31):
Well, not in a very positive way at the beginning in
the monastery.
I painted.
So my, therapist said to me, I'dlike you to start painting.
So I was painting.
I think I was already painting,but then she says, I was just
doing it black and white.
Cause I was doing Chinesecalligraphy, Chinese brush
painting.
And I wanted to perfect doingit.
And she said, what about somecolor?
(18:52):
And I'm like, I don't know ifI'm ready for color.
And she says, no, I reallysuggest using some color.
Soon as I added in the color andI would paint using a cardboard
or paper, but I'd use my handsand I was able to move
diatomatically connect into thisanger and I'd be able to paint
(19:13):
this.
And that for me was verytransformative.
I'd feel anger coming up and Iwould paint it.
The not so skillful ways was Iwas actually physically beating
myself.
So I went to A and E four times,I think, for broken bones,
arteries opened, breakingthings, you know?
(19:34):
And so that was the, another wayI was dealing.
I'd punch, punch the wall causeI was just felt so much anger.
And then.
I think as I moved on and leftthe monastery, so I'd been there
what three, three and a halfyears.
And then I left was then usingexercise to channel it, you
(19:56):
know, to, to go swimming, coldwater, swimming in the sea,
biking.
But then also painting, I've gota studio and, I'd get these big
five meter canvases or pieces ofpaper and I would, you know,
just paint and a bit likeJackson Pollock do that type of
thing.
And that was for me a reallygreat channel for, for that.
(20:18):
Another thing was, um, music,writing and did a lot of
journaling in the monastery,didn't sing, but we were
chanting.
So we'd chant every day in Pali,so you know, ya, we'd be
chanting.
So I was allowing the voice upas well.
So, yeah, that, those are someof the ways that I dealt with
(20:41):
the anger.
But there was so much, I was soangry.
James (20:45):
So I know from my own past experience, I've had to
build up the anger in the past,and when I would go out drinking
with friends, I'd have a bit toomuch, and that's when, I
suppose, when I had the alcohol,I could no longer push the anger
down, so the anger would comeup.
And the idea of gettingaggressive, fighting, that kind
(21:06):
of thing.
But I'm interested, when yousaid that you channeled your
anger when you did exercise, howdid you personally channel that
anger?
Because I know, I, obviously, Iuse exercise now and again as a
way to channel my anger, but I'mmost interested in how you did
it.
Piers (21:25):
Yeah, so I think it's to feel it in the body.
So actually to feel, okay, Ifeel anger and then move.
It's like the somatic, I thinkit's that mindfulness.
Is just to feel, okay, I feelsome anger.
There's a practice from ThichNhat Hanh, who's a Vietnamese
Buddhist monk who's passed awaynow.
(21:46):
But he, he says it's like, we'vegot to walk back and forth, or
you can do it running, and justsay the words, breathe in,
breathe out.
Breathing in anger has arisen inme, breathing out.
I'm taking good care of thisanger, breathing in.
And so we just do that.
We run, but we feel it in thebody.
(22:08):
And often what happens is I'veused this example quite a few
times, but a few years agobought a new carpet for
downstairs and I was emptying,we've got a coal fire emptying
the ashes and As I was walkingdown the corridor to empty them
outside, one of the embers,which was still hot, fell onto
(22:29):
the carpet.
And I was like, right, it'sreally hot.
Took it outside, came back, bighole in my new carpet.
I hadn't had it the day.
And I felt really angry.
And I just did the practice,walked back and forth, felt the
anger, felt it in my body.
I burst into tears.
What it took me back to is whenI was about three or four, uh,
(22:51):
I'd put a light on the carpet athome and it burns a hole in the
carpet and I'd been beaten forit.
And that memory was stored inme.
And so just by us feeling theanger, often under the anger is
sadness or grief or there'ssomething there.
(23:12):
And I think as, you know,British, we don't go down into
that depth.
And that's where the gold is.
That's where it becomes frompost traumatic stress to post
traumatic growth.
James (23:24):
But I, for myself, I kind of embody the warrior and I
allow the warrior, anybodylisting the warrior is one of
the four male archetypes andrepresents anger.
So I use the warrior to kind ofdecide your crossfit.
So when I'm going hell forleather.
(23:45):
I almost channel that warriorand allow him to feel what I
need to feel in that moment.
Piers (23:51):
Beautiful.
Beautiful.
Yeah.
The archetypes are just sopowerful.
It's like these aspects ofourselves.
And I think a lot of us are inshadow, especially around the
warrior.
You know, the warrior.
Yeah, he's, he's very calm.
He's kind of very present, verypowerful.
(24:13):
I think sometimes in Britain, wethink, Oh, you're, I don't know.
We, we have this anger.
Seems okay.
Almost that we bottle it up andthen we explode.
I think if we can justconnecting him with our anger
feeling it but not letting itbuild so much that we just
(24:34):
Explode.
I mean I used to before I wentto the monastery.
I was very much into footballand Portsmouth and Portsmouth is
You know, was my football team.
I remember being on the, um, theterraces and there was such a
lot of aggression and, you know,I remember being sat one day
outside a pub and these peoplestarted throwing bottles at the,
(24:58):
the people, um, from theopposing fans.
And I turned and looked to thekids next to me and they'd got
blood pouring down their face.
One of the bottles had smashedonto one of these kids.
And I'm just like, what am Idoing here?
There's so much anger.
And I feel for us, it's likeimportant for us just to every
(25:18):
day feel what am I feeling?
Oh, feel it in our body.
So it doesn't build and thenexplode as is so often happens
in, you know, certainly in, inBritain.
James (25:30):
Yeah.
So throughout this journey ofhealing, what challenges did you
come up against?
Piers (25:39):
I think the first 30 years were really difficult for
me.
I mean, till I really left themonastery, things started to
settle.
So, but the first 30 years Icame up against so many one was,
you know, mental health.
depression, suicidal thoughts,and then I attempted, tried to
(26:00):
slip my wrist a couple of times,contemplated when I was in
London working in the city,jumping off Waterloo Bridge, and
struggle with addictions aswell.
You know, I went to Africa, kindof post my father dying after
(26:21):
leaving the city, and I wasthere for a year, and I, again,
I struggled with, with drink.
Some nights I would drink allnight and then go back to work.
And because of the work I wasdoing, it was like, Oh, I gave
myself permission to, to drinklots.
And it was like, it's okay.
It's it's work.
(26:43):
There's been many challengesthere, obviously friends dying.
But mainly it's been my ownmental health, really struggling
with anger.
Struggling with hating myself,um, struggling in relationships
as well, not really being ableto love.
That was one of the side effectsof boarding school shutting my
heart down and my emotion.
(27:04):
Being in relationship, but notbeing able to open and have
empathy or love.
So, um, yeah, there's been quitea few.
Um, certainly those first 30years.
I mean, the monastic life wasvery difficult.
Really difficult.
Some people say, oh, you'rereally lucky and it's like yes
on one level.
(27:25):
I was really lucky.
I probably would have beensectioned Probably would have
been put into, um, a mentalinstitution because I was so, so
broken, but I had the supportthere.
And I think that's a part, oneof your questions, you said, you
know, what's really helped.
And I think it's, it'scommunity.
My wife has been amazing.
(27:46):
Michelle is, has really helpedme, but also community, having
friends, having the monasticsthere.
I think sometimes we have thisbelief, we've got to do it on
our own.
It's, And that's definitelysomething from boarding school.
It's all, you know, got to do ityourself.
And actually it's, it'scommunity as much as anything.
(28:08):
Yes.
We've got to help ourselves andwe've got to have support around
us.
James (28:13):
So as well as community, is there any specific tools or
strategies that you use yourselfon a daily basis.
I'm just thinking if there'sanybody here listening and they,
they might not have gone toboarding school, but they might
be struggling.
And I think if there's any toolsor strategies that you use that
could really help people outthere.
Piers (28:35):
Definitely.
Definitely.
This is something I'm fascinatedby is, is tools.
How do we move from that zero toplus 10?
And I've just had a cold bath,you know, cold, cold bath.
I don't know.
I had one for a little while.
You know, they say thatincreases our dopamine levels by
two and a half times.
(28:56):
It's one of the, it's been shownin research, really great way of
getting over addictions.
You know, other things exercise,you know, if you can get into
that zone too, which is, I won'tgo into details here, but
essentially it's the, uh,aerobic zone rather than
anaerobic zone.
Those types of things that thoseare shown the efficacy for that
(29:20):
compared with, um,antidepressant, it's as
effective.
exercise.
I use EFT with my clients, butalso on myself and that's
tapping on the meridians, theacupuncture and acupressure
points.
Uh, and I found thattransformative both with myself
and with my clients.
(29:41):
Meditation.
Wonderful for me.
It's not for everyone.
If we're really strugglingmentally, sometimes meditation's
not so good, but.
Because we can go too much intoour heads.
But actually going out walkingand being mindful.
So almost mindfully walking.
I think that's another one.
(30:01):
Creativity, painting, drawing,writing, creating stories,
allowing the little child inpart, child, part of you, in to,
to almost feel joy again.
I think in society we, we squashthat joyful part.
We become adults, but that partstill lives within us.
(30:22):
It needs to, to dance around.
And dancing is a thing in the UKcalled five rhythms, which is,
you know, without alcohol, we goand we dance with the community.
And it's fun.
I found that to be reallytransformative.
What other things have I foundreally great?
(30:44):
Uh, Qigong.
Tai Chi, you know, martial arts,I think practices for getting us
into our bodies.
And you know, something likeEFT, you can find videos.
I have videos on YouTube where Ilead people through the, the
different processes.
And I've interviewed a fewpeople on my podcast, you know,
(31:05):
about the science behind EFT.
And I'm trying to think whatother ones, uh, yoga, that's
another one being barefoot onthe earth.
Okay.
You know, grounding, earthing,you know, I've mentioned cold
water, but all of these things,uh, diet makes a big difference
(31:28):
as the work of, um, ChristopherPalmer, brain energy
psychiatrist founding actually,if we change our diets, that
improves our mental health.
There's just so much out there.
And I think it's wonderful nowthat there's so much clinical
data to go, wow, actually, ifyou.
(31:48):
Cut down your carbs.
That makes a real difference tohow you feel, you know,
according to Christopher Palmeror Georgia Reid.
It's like, wow, all of thesethings.
So yeah,
James (32:03):
I can relate to a few of them So I've done cold baths In
the past, and they ought to getback to it really cold showers,
but I find the cold shower forme.
It's it's helped me to slow downmy breathing.
So when you get into a cold, acold bath, and obviously in the
winter, it's colder than in thesummer, but it's the idea that
(32:25):
you almost you become present.
You become present in thatmoment because you're, you're
freezing cold.
And the first 10 seconds you'regoing, uh, but within 10
seconds, I've learned to slow mybraving down quite rapidly.
And, uh, yeah, that massivelyhelps because it has an idea of
really waking you up first thingin the morning.
(32:47):
So with regards to.
Other men that you've seen whohave gone to boarding school and
have this post, um, posttraumatic stress.
What are the reoccurring themesthat you see in men like this?
Piers (33:02):
Yeah, I've mentioned them before.
I think it's addictions, youknow, either cocaine or alcohol
or pornography or having affairswith people, sex addictions.
There's also workaholism, theaddiction of they just can't
(33:25):
stop.
And that often comes fromboarding school because we've
got this thing calledtimetabling that Nick Duffell
says, you know, you go toboarding school from seven
o'clock in the morning till nine30 at night.
You are.
Timetabled.
You don't, you know, I wastalking to someone on a podcast
a couple of days ago.
He says that the averageboarding school week is about 80
hours for a child.
(33:47):
You've got an 80 hour week for achild, you know, and the same
for the teachers, and the thingthey're currently struggling
with is burnout.
Like you've said, you've saidearlier about, you know, having
that softness.
There's no softness there.
So we're just like, go, go, go,go, go.
Now I see people in my work, thetwenties and often the thirties,
(34:08):
they're really productive.
They do wonderful things becausethey've dissociated.
They're just blah, blah, blah,blah, blah.
But eventually they break out,they burn out.
They can't go on because there'snot, you know, this ultradian
rhythm of on and then off.
It's just on all the time.
So that's often what I see.
(34:30):
And.
You know, when I go to the restof Europe, I remember I was in
Greece a couple of years ago fora holiday, sat in the airport
and there were workers just satdown just chatting.
And I was like, you would neversee that in Britain.
You're expected to always be onthe go or you go home.
(34:50):
And it was just really nice tosee that, that, that, that kind
of on and then off.
What other things do I see?
Relationship breakdown.
Because there's no ability toconnect to their emotions, they
find it very difficult to be inrelationship.
You know, as Jung said, it'slike it's projection.
We project out that which wewill not look at within
(35:13):
ourselves that we've dissociateonto our partners.
If we're in a position ofleadership, we'll put that onto
the people we're leading.
UK, I see there's a huge issueat the moment with vulnerability
and the people who arevulnerable, the older, the
children, or the, you know, uh,Uh, the infirm because the our
(35:33):
leaders learn to hate thevulnerable inside themselves and
therefore they cannot, if theyhate that within themselves,
they'll project it out ontosociety.
Jung said, he said, thepsychological rule says that
when an inner situation is notmade conscious, it happens
outside as fate.
And this is what I see.
(35:53):
The other thing is emotion.
He's, especially if we're in aposition of leadership,
Professor Antonio DeMasio'swork, he says you cannot make
good decisions without emotionalinformation.
If you've dissociated from youremotions, which is the principal
effect of boarding school, yougo and if you show anger, you're
laughed at, you're calledpsycho, if you cry, you're
(36:15):
called a wimp, and you'rebullied.
You learn to become dissociated.
And so we struggle makingdecisions.
And I see Britain is currentlygoing through that at the moment
is that it's the consequence ofreally poor decisions for
decades in this country, becausepeople haven't been able to
(36:37):
connect to their emotions, youknow, empathy.
What other things would I saythat I see with people?
I think those are most of them,you know, feeling isolated as
well.
They feel they're on their own.
You know, especially people whoare in positions of leadership,
(36:58):
very, feel very isolated.
There's no one they can reallytalk to.
No one really understands them.
So yeah, those are some of them,James.
James (37:08):
So how can, if somebody's going through this, how can they
start to break the cycles?
Piers (37:13):
Yeah, there's, there's many ways.
I mean, I have lots of podcasts.
I've done 120 episodes, mainlyaround this subject of boarding
school.
So it's, I think because it'scomplex PTSD, I feel you've got
to be quite varied and complexin your healing.
So cognitive, you know, I wouldrecommend reading, You know, you
(37:36):
know, books like this, TheMaking of Them by Nick Duffell.
Uh, this is another great one,Wounded Leaders by Nick Duffell.
Um, there's George Shavarian'sbook as well, Boarding School
Syndrome.
So I think that's the cognitiveside.
Understand it.
And I've interviewed all thesepeople on my podcast.
It is to go, ah, yeah.
(37:59):
This is, this is, this is me tounderstand.
That's the first level.
Second level would be join agroup.
And I I've stopped the men'sgroup at the moment, but there
are, it's an organization calledseen and heard, which one of my
clients is, is part of, andit's, it runs weekly check in
(38:22):
circles.
So you can go as an exporter andyou can hear other people's
stories.
So I think that's important forus to realize we're not alone.
They're isolation or I'd breakthat down.
Meet other people here.
Oh my God.
You went through the same thing.
The other thing is one to onework, you know, whether it's a
(38:42):
therapist or a coach.
You find someone, a counsellor,who understands about boarding
school and there's a website outthere called
boardingschoolsurvivors.
co.
uk or com, which is NickDuffell's workshop, um,
workshops and, uh, resource.
And you can find a, a, a persontrained in boarding school
(39:06):
syndrome and they willunderstand what you're going
through.
Some therapists, it's becomingmore well known, but a lot don't
necessarily understand that it'sa trauma.
Yes, not everyone is negativelyimpacted by these schools, I
need to say that.
And not, not everyone istraumatized, but everyone has to
survive, as Nick Duffell says.
(39:28):
We have to survive, we have tocreate a survival personality in
order to survive in theseinstitutions.
And part of the work is todismantle this survival
personality.
James (39:39):
So with regards to your documentary on boarding schools,
can you tell us a little bitabout that?
Piers (39:47):
Yeah, so I wrote a book a number of years ago and About my
boarding school experience, itwas rejected by the publisher.
And I was like, going back tothe drawing board, starting to
write again, you know, edit it.
And then I was talking to acouple of friends.
One's a film producer, anotheris a director, and I just said,
(40:10):
I want to make a film.
I think, and we just talkedabout it.
It's like, let's do it then.
So this was about three yearsago.
So we just began by interviewingpeople, you know, putting ideas
down kind of what could we do,where could we film?
So we started to film.
And, and so what I see is it's abit like, that the idea is I
(40:34):
there's my story, my, what Iwent through at boarding school.
And then the next level is,well, who else has had these
experiences?
And so we've interviewed, we dida retreat where we heard other
people's stories at boardingschools.
And then the next level is theleaders.
Well, if these are theexperiences of the, the, the
(40:55):
people at boarding school, whatare the lead, the leader's
experiences?
And so we've interviewedexperts.
We spoke to Dr.
Gabor Maté, spoken to NickDuffell, Joy Shavarian, Alex
Renton, people who are very wellknown in this field.
And then it's to ask, what's theimpact on the rest of us?
(41:16):
And so in the film, we'veinterviewed historian as well,
SI Martin, who talks aboutslavery, how slavery and the
boarding schools were linked aswell.
Um, for example, one of the mostwell known slavers in the UK
went to my boarding school andthe money he got from this, the
(41:36):
slave trade he's channeled intothe boarding school.
So it was like almost a direct,direct link between slavery and
these boarding schools.
So we bring that in to the, thedocumentary and then, yeah,
looking at the path of healingas well.
How do we transform?
How do we move it from posttraumatic stress to post
(41:57):
traumatic growth?
How do we use this as our gift?
And I think that's the keymessage I want to say.
Sometimes we get locked in thepoor me, the victim, it was
terrible.
We need to grieve.
First way, you know, there'sthree levels really.
First is we're dissociated.
We've got to start to awaken towhat happened to us.
(42:20):
Second level is grieve.
We've got to grieve, go intothat space, that liminal space
as Robert Moore talks about.
The third level is then takingthat gift, as Joseph Campbell
says, back out into the world,the boon.
What is the gift that I'velearned by grieving going in?
What from that experience?
(42:40):
So for me, I'm passionate aboutclosing or converting all
boarding schools into sixth formcolleges.
You know, making it illegal toboard under 16 because I think
developmentally it's sodamaging.
And like I said, I've got 50biographies here.
Some of the most well knownpeople, John Peel, he was raped
(43:03):
at boarding school.
Boris Johnson was beaten.
There was sexual abuse going onin his boarding school.
David Cameron, he lost a stonein weight.
And was beaten at Tony Blair wasbeaten at school and he ran
away.
He not only ran away, but hetried to leave the country, got
on a plane, tried to leave thecountry.
You know, you realize there aredozens, if not hundreds of
(43:28):
stories like this of very wellknown people.
Uh, Richard Branson, he tried tocommit suicide at boarding
school.
You know, he wrote a suicidenote and he tried to walk off
the cliff, but the teachers andthe other people stopped him.
So it's like realizing, ah, thisis what happens and what can we
(43:51):
do?
So that's, yeah, some of my, myvision and the idea with it.
James (43:57):
Thank you very much.
It's been a very, veryinformative.
I'm kind of, um, just so much.
Going on in my head just tryingto figure kind of take all this
information in but can you tellpeople out there?
What is it that you exactly do?
Piers (44:13):
What is it I exactly do?
James (44:15):
So like what kind of the sessions one on one sessions or
group sessions?
Piers (44:22):
Yeah, so I've Stopped the group sessions at the moment,
but the one on one work is Youknow, it's maybe 12 weeks.
I will meet with someone.
It might be longer.
It's for me, creating a dailypractice.
It's one thing.
Another is goals.
(44:42):
Very important.
Whether you've been throughtrauma or you're just wanting
peak performances to have avision of where you're going.
Uh, next thing for me isemotional intelligence,
developing that, and also mentalresilience.
You know, creating that anotheraspect is that inner work,
finding those early parts ofourselves, grieving, letting
(45:05):
that go.
I teach people about leadership,you know, what makes a great
leader, the importance of loveand leadership, purpose as well,
you know, the importance ofpurpose to improve our mental
health and other such things,essentially, you know, and
there's so many levels to this.
(45:26):
I've just trained recently as a.
as a coach in more sexualhealing.
So because so many of my clientshave problems sexually, you
know?
So, um, yeah, that's, it'ssomething I love doing.
I've been, I don't know, 15,2006, I started, so 19 years
(45:50):
I've been doing it.
I've probably done four or 5,000 sessions with people.
Um, and it's something I'm justpassionate by.
So I'm always learning andgrowing.
So.
Yeah, that's, that's what I do.
I'm, I'm going to start a coursein the next few months, probably
after the film has gone out,called The Compassionate Leader,
which will be a 12 week courseand it will be, you know, group
(46:16):
coaching, but also going through12 modules about, well, how do
we develop, you know, to be acompassionate leader, to be in
high performance and be heartcentred as well.
James (46:29):
That's, that's what I'm doing.
Wonderful.
Thank you very much.
Thank you very much for yourtime, Piers.
It's been absolutely very, veryinformative, uh, episode.
Piers (46:42):
Well, thank you, James.
Thank you for doing thesepodcasts and, uh, you know, the
wonderful work you're doing.
Thank you for that.
James (46:49):
Thank you.
In today's episode, we have adeep dive into boarding schools
and the impact they can have onpeople's lives from PTSD,
addiction, workaholism, andemotional disconnection.
And we explore the nature ofanger, its potential effects and
the practical strategies formanaging it effectively.
Welcome to Man (00:23):
A Quest to Find Meaning, where we help men
navigate modern life, find theirtrue purpose, and redefine
manhood.
I'm your host, James, and eachweek, inspiring guests share
their journeys of overcomingfear Embracing vulnerability and
finding success.
(00:44):
From experts to everyday heroes.
Get practical advice andpowerful insights.
Struggling with career,relationships or personal
growth?
We've got you covered.
Join us on Man Quest to FindMeaning.
Now, let's dive in.
James (01:01):
We can heal from trauma.
We can move from post traumaticstress to post traumatic growth.
Good morning, peers.
What do you mean by thatstatement?
Piers (01:15):
Yeah, thank you.
I think what I mean by that isin my own life, I thought I was
just damaged and there was noway out and it was that
realization that I could heal.
And that there was a pathway,and I see that the work of
(01:36):
Stephen Joseph, talking aboutpost traumatic growth, that
actually our wound can becomeour gift.
James (01:43):
Okay, so it's kind of like, we have all these things
like anxiety and fear, maybe sayfor example, the fear of, fear
of a snake.
But that fear of a snake isalmost a gift because that fear
can almost become your friend,which then can teach you the
(02:04):
lessons.
Is that kind of right?
Piers (02:06):
That's it.
And then also, then we can helppeople who've been frightened of
snakes, go, well, this is what Idid.
And I think the wound becomesthe gold.
I mean, Robert Bly in his book,Iron John, he said that our
wound is where the greatest giftwill be that we'll give back to
society.
At the end of Bessel van derKolk's book, The Body Keeps the
(02:27):
Score, The Psychiatrist, he saysthat often those people like
Nelson Mandela, the OprahWinfrey's have had real bad
Trauma in their lives, butthey've turned it around and
they've given their gift out AndI think that's what we're saying
here is that we it can be growthrather than it just being You
(02:49):
know before we started recordingIt's like taking us from minus
10 the trauma to 0 but then from0 to plus 10 Actually, I can be
in purpose on purpose in life.
I can give of my gift.
Whatever that might be
James (03:05):
It's almost like we have these things anxiety rejection
procrastination.
But these things that we almosttry to run away from, the more I
feel as if you run away from it,the more it kind of chases you.
But as soon as you allowyourself to hear.
What it wants to say.
It's almost say it's almost thenit becomes your gift.
(03:26):
So, for example, the other day,I, I've gone through a phase, a
big phase, where I getprocrastinate, I get
overwhelmed.
But the other day, I decided toturn it around.
And I asked myself, what doesthe overwhelm want to teach me?
And it was kind of like, justkind of pull yourself back in.
(03:48):
And it said, just focus on theone thing that you can do now,
rather than trying to focus onthis massive goal with all these
different branches.
And it's just said, focus onwhat you can do in this exact
moment.
Piers (04:05):
Mm.
That's beautiful.
That's it.
Jason Selk, in his book,Executive Toughness, he talks
about, they says, you know, whenwe feel overwhelmed, what is the
one thing I can do?
Not the 10, 000 things.
No, what's the one thing thatwill make this better?
And I think often in trauma andwhat you've just said is
(04:25):
fascinating and I think I'd takeit in another step Which is we
have to feel it as well becauseit's following us But if we just
stop and bring it somaticallyinto the body How does this
actually feel and oftenunderneath that is the gold?
It's the grief but the flip sideof the grief is joy We run away,
(04:48):
we don't want to feel the grief,but actually, that's golden,
because that opens our hearts.
It gives us empathy for otherpeople.
James (04:57):
Can you tell me about yourself, please?
Piers (05:01):
Yeah, so, I work as a coach.
I work mainly with leaders,executives, and the specialties
around boarding school.
So I help people who've been toboarding school.
Maybe they had a difficult timeor they are suffering the
consequences.
Now there's often what we callboarding school syndrome is a
(05:25):
specific set of symptoms.
Addictions.
We've got workaholism, strugglein intimacy, difficulty feeling
emotions, depression, suicidalthoughts.
These often accumulate andpeople don't realise it's often
linked into their experiences atboarding school.
They just think, Oh, that's justme.
(05:46):
But actually, so that's my work.
And I'm also the producer of adocumentary called Boarding on
Insanity, realising that just,How many of our global leaders
have been to boarding school,Mark Zuckerberg, the head of the
FBI, Christopher Ray, who's justresigned, head of the Church of
England, who's just resigned,Justin Welby, Donald Trump,
(06:11):
Boris Johnson, et cetera, etcetera, et cetera.
So we're making a documentary togo, what's the impact of trauma?
on our leaders?
Are our leaders traumatized?
How might that impact the restof the world?
So that's something I'm doing.
I run a podcast.
My day to day work is reallyworking with leaders,
(06:33):
executives, people who've beento boarding school or some form
of trauma.
James (06:38):
That brings to mind, and obviously I always try to avoid
talking about Politics oranything like that by a number
of Donald Trump, wheneverspeeches said, if you want to
overcome depression work harder,and I was like, oh, my God, how
can you say that kind of thing?
(06:58):
And that just goes to show that.
The workaholism, the lack ofidea of your own emotions and,
and probably the impact thatcould have on people who heard
that.
Piers (07:14):
Yeah, I think we do live in a very driven world.
And, you know, it's like if youlook at the brain, and this is
the work of Dr.
Ian McGilchrist, we have leftand right hemispheres of the
brain.
One is more analytical.
And one is more intuitive, moreinward.
(07:36):
And, we in the West It's justthe, you know, the left side of
the brain, analytical, morework, push, push, push.
But this is more the feelingsense, the, the, uh, you know,
the right side of the brain,it's more feeling, it's
intuitive, it's creative.
(07:56):
And I feel both need to bemerged.
Nurtured.
And what, when we have both inbalance, it's called hemi
sinking.
And I just feel we're a, we'reout of balance.
You know, we see how we treatthe earth.
That shows me an out, we're outof balance.
We haven't gone within.
We're always out, out, out.
(08:17):
And actually, I feel greatleadership, and this is what
Warren Bennis, Koosers andPosner in their book Leadership
Challenge says, is we've got tostart going within.
We've got to lead ourselvesfirst.
James (08:31):
It's an idea that's almost as well, I just, kind of
it brings to mind the masculineand the feminine.
So the masculine side of thingsis the taking the action, doing
the work and then the femaleside the feminine, not
necessarily the female, thefeminine um, the sense of
surrender.
So almost, that feels almostlike hemi thinking, so the
(08:54):
action, as soon as you take anaction step, surrender, then
take some more action, and thensurrender.
And it's almost that sense ofallowing ourselves to do what we
need to do, but then flowingwith the universe, or flowing
with, if you use the word, God,kind of thing.
Piers (09:14):
Yeah, yeah, perfect.
It's that it's like, if you lookat martial arts, you know, I've
done martial arts over a numberof years and particular Aikido
and the Japanese.
And it's the idea is the morerelaxed you are.
And I've heard this a BrazilianJiu Jitsu as well.
They said the more relaxed youare, the better you are.
People often think, Oh, no, ifyou're really strong and you
(09:36):
got, you know, you're kind ofrigid like that.
Well, actually that shows youyou're weaker, you're easier to
submit.
And so.
It is important for us.
To, to act, but in a relaxedway, it's softness.
And it's like, if you think ofwater, you know, water will move
through anything.
It's, you know, and that's a lotin martial arts is flowing of
(10:02):
energy.
James (10:04):
So where did, where did your journey with boarding
school begin?
Piers (10:08):
Yeah.
So I went to boarding schoolfrom age 11 to just before my
18th birthday.
So I was there for seven years.
And on the surface, I was seenas a success.
I was good at sports.
I was captain of athletics,first 15 rugby, first 11
football and I was in a rockband and I went on, left
(10:29):
boarding school and went on to atop business school,
international business school,France, worked in Paris, London.
And then in my twenties, Istarted to have a breakdown.
Within a few weeks, I'd lost myfather, got cancer, eventually
died.
Uh, I spit up for my partner.
I left my home, quit my job.
(10:51):
And I was essentially homeless.
And it was around that time thatI suddenly realized that
boarding school, there was animpact there.
And I came across a book, thesynchronicities, uh, went on
retreat.
And I suddenly had theunderstanding that boarding
school had been horrific.
I had so much anger and Irealized, yeah, I'd been
(11:14):
sexually abused while I wasthere.
Uh, one of my friends hadcommitted suicide and the school
decided after, you know, thefriend had committed suicide
that we needed to go and see thepriest and the priest sexually
abused me as he tried to do withother people as well.
He was just got out of prisonrecently.
(11:34):
And so, That was my experienceand that just started.
So I was mid twenties, startedto have a real breakdown and I
went to live in a Buddhistmonastery and I went just for 10
days.
I just needed some time out, butended up staying over a thousand
days, three and a half years.
I ordained as a novice monk andI worked with a yungi in the
(11:58):
nab.
Analyst and it was like justprocessing a lot of what I'd
been through as a child, lots oftears.
I tried to commit suicide, selfharmed, but I came out the other
side.
So that was my experience and I,I see that my work, it's a bit
like.
Beginning with my own journeyand I'm like, okay, it's just me
(12:19):
and then realizing actually noThere's other people who've been
through this experience as wellat boarding school There's lots
of stories and then I started todo some investigation.
I started to read the books ofYou know well known exporters
and you realize Oh my God,almost to a tee, they've had
most of them horrific times.
(12:40):
And then the second third partis, well, what's the impact on
the rest of us?
If these people have been tothese schools, had horrific
times, and you realize there's alot of data out there that the,
you know, Peter Levine in hiswork, he says the effects of
unresolved trauma can bedevastating and therefore If
(13:02):
boarding school is a trauma, somany of our leaders have been
traumatized, how is that goingto affect their, their decision
making?
And that's really my work now isworking both with leaders, but
also, you know, creating thisdocumentary, which will be out
in the next couple of months.
James (13:22):
So you talked about some of your traumas that you went
through.
How did you start to look, delvea bit deeper into these traumas
so that you could kind ofunderstand?
What happened so that you couldgrow from it.
Piers (13:38):
Yeah, great question.
And I'm not sure, I mean,essentially when I started to
look within was when I startedto work doing one to one.
You know, I think for me,boarding school, it's a complex
trauma, complex PTSD.
You know, we have PTSD.
(13:59):
It's one thing which happens.
PT, CPTSD, complex PTSD is whenthat thing happens over and over
again.
So for us at boarding school Youknow, we're being separated from
home over and over again, so itmeans it's complex.
So I began seeing therapists,but it didn't really work.
(14:21):
It was only really when I beganto work with this Jungian
analyst, and I started to workwith dreams and the unconscious.
And I think that was my pathwayinto, because people could say
to me, Oh, you're a good personor you're this or that.
I couldn't hear it.
I was too dissociated, but toactually start writing my dreams
(14:43):
down, it was my dreams speakingto me.
And I was do, you know, theywere nightmares night after
night after night, me beingkilled, you know, being, um,
Types of horrible things.
Uh, and I then realized, Oh myGod, that's my inner world.
My inner world is reallytroubled.
(15:03):
So that's how I went deep wasthrough doing unconscious work,
dream work.
What I do with my clients now isI use what's called EFT matrix
re imprinting, which is asimilar work.
We're going into theunconscious.
What's your unconscious saying?
Because often when we are justdoing talk therapy, or we're
(15:26):
just coaching, it's just theprefrontal cortex.
But our trauma is stored in theamygdala, in the limbic system.
The reptilian part of the brain,and when we work unconsciously,
we access that.
Whereas often just by talking,we're not accessing that part of
the brain.
That's why, for example, I knowyou work as a firefighter.
(15:49):
Some people might have been in afire, and then any instance of
fire or smell of smoke, theiramygdala is going to go off.
And it's going to keep going offuntil they look at that
unconscious.
And there are tools andprocesses that we can do, coming
back to that question, that wecan heal.
(16:10):
And, you know, whether it'sdream work, whether it's matrix
re imprinting, whether it'sother things, we, we can heal
these traumas.
James (16:18):
Was there any specific things, like, with the dream,
was there a specific dream thatkept repeating that just
literally said, and it had anaha moment?
Piers (16:30):
Not particularly.
I mean, my Jungian analyst, um,She said to me, write your
dreams down.
So I would wake up every night,two or three times, and I write
my dreams down.
So I could be awake an hour ortwo in the night writing my
dreams down.
I'd do pages and pages of them.
And the theme was, there was alot of violence in them.
(16:52):
I was either being shot at, Iwas fighting, you know.
And so it was just showing mehow much anger I had inside.
And I think When I was able toseparate almost and see that
angry part, then the tearsstarted to come.
I started to grieve.
And I think that was the key forme.
I think often, sometimes traumawe hold onto it with too
(17:16):
frightened of grieving, but whenwe do, that's when we can start.
Letting it go it feelsoverwhelming because especially
if you you know You've you'vegot complex PTSD and it feels
like this reservoir of emotion.
It feels oh my god, if I letthat out That's gonna swamp me
And so what we do is just liftthe sluice gate up little bit by
(17:39):
little bit little bit of tearsrelease A little bit of tears
and then eventually we candismantle that reservoir wall
and it's just a beautifulflowing river.
This is our emotion.
And I see in Britain we have asociety which is stiff upper
lip.
We damn up those emotions.
Boys don't cry.
(18:01):
And actually it's, the researchis now showing that to be
emotionally intelligent, to beable to connect to your
authenticity, your vulnerabilityis a greater.
predictor of future success thanacademic performance.
James (18:20):
With regards to your own anger, how was it that you kind
of started to release, how did,how did you release that anger?
of yours?
Piers (18:31):
Well, not in a very positive way at the beginning in
the monastery.
I painted.
So my, therapist said to me, I'dlike you to start painting.
So I was painting.
I think I was already painting,but then she says, I was just
doing it black and white.
Cause I was doing Chinesecalligraphy, Chinese brush
painting.
And I wanted to perfect doingit.
And she said, what about somecolor?
(18:52):
And I'm like, I don't know ifI'm ready for color.
And she says, no, I reallysuggest using some color.
Soon as I added in the color andI would paint using a cardboard
or paper, but I'd use my handsand I was able to move
diatomatically connect into thisanger and I'd be able to paint
(19:13):
this.
And that for me was verytransformative.
I'd feel anger coming up and Iwould paint it.
The not so skillful ways was Iwas actually physically beating
myself.
So I went to A and E four times,I think, for broken bones,
arteries opened, breakingthings, you know?
(19:34):
And so that was the, another wayI was dealing.
I'd punch, punch the wall causeI was just felt so much anger.
And then.
I think as I moved on and leftthe monastery, so I'd been there
what three, three and a halfyears.
And then I left was then usingexercise to channel it, you
(19:56):
know, to, to go swimming, coldwater, swimming in the sea,
biking.
But then also painting, I've gota studio and, I'd get these big
five meter canvases or pieces ofpaper and I would, you know,
just paint and a bit likeJackson Pollock do that type of
thing.
And that was for me a reallygreat channel for, for that.
(20:18):
Another thing was, um, music,writing and did a lot of
journaling in the monastery,didn't sing, but we were
chanting.
So we'd chant every day in Pali,so you know, ya, we'd be
chanting.
So I was allowing the voice upas well.
So, yeah, that, those are someof the ways that I dealt with
(20:41):
the anger.
But there was so much, I was soangry.
James (20:45):
So I know from my own past experience, I've had to
build up the anger in the past,and when I would go out drinking
with friends, I'd have a bit toomuch, and that's when, I
suppose, when I had the alcohol,I could no longer push the anger
down, so the anger would comeup.
And the idea of gettingaggressive, fighting, that kind
(21:06):
of thing.
But I'm interested, when yousaid that you channeled your
anger when you did exercise, howdid you personally channel that
anger?
Because I know, I, obviously, Iuse exercise now and again as a
way to channel my anger, but I'mmost interested in how you did
it.
Piers (21:25):
Yeah, so I think it's to feel it in the body.
So actually to feel, okay, Ifeel anger and then move.
It's like the somatic, I thinkit's that mindfulness.
Is just to feel, okay, I feelsome anger.
There's a practice from ThichNhat Hanh, who's a Vietnamese
Buddhist monk who's passed awaynow.
(21:46):
But he, he says it's like, we'vegot to walk back and forth, or
you can do it running, and justsay the words, breathe in,
breathe out.
Breathing in anger has arisen inme, breathing out.
I'm taking good care of thisanger, breathing in.
And so we just do that.
We run, but we feel it in thebody.
(22:08):
And often what happens is I'veused this example quite a few
times, but a few years agobought a new carpet for
downstairs and I was emptying,we've got a coal fire emptying
the ashes and As I was walkingdown the corridor to empty them
outside, one of the embers,which was still hot, fell onto
(22:29):
the carpet.
And I was like, right, it'sreally hot.
Took it outside, came back, bighole in my new carpet.
I hadn't had it the day.
And I felt really angry.
And I just did the practice,walked back and forth, felt the
anger, felt it in my body.
I burst into tears.
What it took me back to is whenI was about three or four, uh,
(22:51):
I'd put a light on the carpet athome and it burns a hole in the
carpet and I'd been beaten forit.
And that memory was stored inme.
And so just by us feeling theanger, often under the anger is
sadness or grief or there'ssomething there.
(23:12):
And I think as, you know,British, we don't go down into
that depth.
And that's where the gold is.
That's where it becomes frompost traumatic stress to post
traumatic growth.
James (23:24):
But I, for myself, I kind of embody the warrior and I
allow the warrior, anybodylisting the warrior is one of
the four male archetypes andrepresents anger.
So I use the warrior to kind ofdecide your crossfit.
So when I'm going hell forleather.
(23:45):
I almost channel that warriorand allow him to feel what I
need to feel in that moment.
Piers (23:51):
Beautiful.
Beautiful.
Yeah.
The archetypes are just sopowerful.
It's like these aspects ofourselves.
And I think a lot of us are inshadow, especially around the
warrior.
You know, the warrior.
Yeah, he's, he's very calm.
He's kind of very present, verypowerful.
(24:13):
I think sometimes in Britain, wethink, Oh, you're, I don't know.
We, we have this anger.
Seems okay.
Almost that we bottle it up andthen we explode.
I think if we can justconnecting him with our anger
feeling it but not letting itbuild so much that we just
(24:34):
Explode.
I mean I used to before I wentto the monastery.
I was very much into footballand Portsmouth and Portsmouth is
You know, was my football team.
I remember being on the, um, theterraces and there was such a
lot of aggression and, you know,I remember being sat one day
outside a pub and these peoplestarted throwing bottles at the,
(24:58):
the people, um, from theopposing fans.
And I turned and looked to thekids next to me and they'd got
blood pouring down their face.
One of the bottles had smashedonto one of these kids.
And I'm just like, what am Idoing here?
There's so much anger.
And I feel for us, it's likeimportant for us just to every
(25:18):
day feel what am I feeling?
Oh, feel it in our body.
So it doesn't build and thenexplode as is so often happens
in, you know, certainly in, inBritain.
James (25:30):
Yeah.
So throughout this journey ofhealing, what challenges did you
come up against?
Piers (25:39):
I think the first 30 years were really difficult for
me.
I mean, till I really left themonastery, things started to
settle.
So, but the first 30 years Icame up against so many one was,
you know, mental health.
depression, suicidal thoughts,and then I attempted, tried to
(26:00):
slip my wrist a couple of times,contemplated when I was in
London working in the city,jumping off Waterloo Bridge, and
struggle with addictions aswell.
You know, I went to Africa, kindof post my father dying after
(26:21):
leaving the city, and I wasthere for a year, and I, again,
I struggled with, with drink.
Some nights I would drink allnight and then go back to work.
And because of the work I wasdoing, it was like, Oh, I gave
myself permission to, to drinklots.
And it was like, it's okay.
It's it's work.
(26:43):
There's been many challengesthere, obviously friends dying.
But mainly it's been my ownmental health, really struggling
with anger.
Struggling with hating myself,um, struggling in relationships
as well, not really being ableto love.
That was one of the side effectsof boarding school shutting my
heart down and my emotion.
(27:04):
Being in relationship, but notbeing able to open and have
empathy or love.
So, um, yeah, there's been quitea few.
Um, certainly those first 30years.
I mean, the monastic life wasvery difficult.
Really difficult.
Some people say, oh, you'rereally lucky and it's like yes
on one level.
(27:25):
I was really lucky.
I probably would have beensectioned Probably would have
been put into, um, a mentalinstitution because I was so, so
broken, but I had the supportthere.
And I think that's a part, oneof your questions, you said, you
know, what's really helped.
And I think it's, it'scommunity.
My wife has been amazing.
(27:46):
Michelle is, has really helpedme, but also community, having
friends, having the monasticsthere.
I think sometimes we have thisbelief, we've got to do it on
our own.
It's, And that's definitelysomething from boarding school.
It's all, you know, got to do ityourself.
And actually it's, it'scommunity as much as anything.
(28:08):
Yes.
We've got to help ourselves andwe've got to have support around
us.
James (28:13):
So as well as community, is there any specific tools or
strategies that you use yourselfon a daily basis.
I'm just thinking if there'sanybody here listening and they,
they might not have gone toboarding school, but they might
be struggling.
And I think if there's any toolsor strategies that you use that
could really help people outthere.
Piers (28:35):
Definitely.
Definitely.
This is something I'm fascinatedby is, is tools.
How do we move from that zero toplus 10?
And I've just had a cold bath,you know, cold, cold bath.
I don't know.
I had one for a little while.
You know, they say thatincreases our dopamine levels by
two and a half times.
(28:56):
It's one of the, it's been shownin research, really great way of
getting over addictions.
You know, other things exercise,you know, if you can get into
that zone too, which is, I won'tgo into details here, but
essentially it's the, uh,aerobic zone rather than
anaerobic zone.
Those types of things that thoseare shown the efficacy for that
(29:20):
compared with, um,antidepressant, it's as
effective.
exercise.
I use EFT with my clients, butalso on myself and that's
tapping on the meridians, theacupuncture and acupressure
points.
Uh, and I found thattransformative both with myself
and with my clients.
(29:41):
Meditation.
Wonderful for me.
It's not for everyone.
If we're really strugglingmentally, sometimes meditation's
not so good, but.
Because we can go too much intoour heads.
But actually going out walkingand being mindful.
So almost mindfully walking.
I think that's another one.
(30:01):
Creativity, painting, drawing,writing, creating stories,
allowing the little child inpart, child, part of you, in to,
to almost feel joy again.
I think in society we, we squashthat joyful part.
We become adults, but that partstill lives within us.
(30:22):
It needs to, to dance around.
And dancing is a thing in the UKcalled five rhythms, which is,
you know, without alcohol, we goand we dance with the community.
And it's fun.
I found that to be reallytransformative.
What other things have I foundreally great?
(30:44):
Uh, Qigong.
Tai Chi, you know, martial arts,I think practices for getting us
into our bodies.
And you know, something likeEFT, you can find videos.
I have videos on YouTube where Ilead people through the, the
different processes.
And I've interviewed a fewpeople on my podcast, you know,
(31:05):
about the science behind EFT.
And I'm trying to think whatother ones, uh, yoga, that's
another one being barefoot onthe earth.
Okay.
You know, grounding, earthing,you know, I've mentioned cold
water, but all of these things,uh, diet makes a big difference
(31:28):
as the work of, um, ChristopherPalmer, brain energy
psychiatrist founding actually,if we change our diets, that
improves our mental health.
There's just so much out there.
And I think it's wonderful nowthat there's so much clinical
data to go, wow, actually, ifyou.
(31:48):
Cut down your carbs.
That makes a real difference tohow you feel, you know,
according to Christopher Palmeror Georgia Reid.
It's like, wow, all of thesethings.
So yeah,
James (32:03):
I can relate to a few of them So I've done cold baths In
the past, and they ought to getback to it really cold showers,
but I find the cold shower forme.
It's it's helped me to slow downmy breathing.
So when you get into a cold, acold bath, and obviously in the
winter, it's colder than in thesummer, but it's the idea that
(32:25):
you almost you become present.
You become present in thatmoment because you're, you're
freezing cold.
And the first 10 seconds you'regoing, uh, but within 10
seconds, I've learned to slow mybraving down quite rapidly.
And, uh, yeah, that massivelyhelps because it has an idea of
really waking you up first thingin the morning.
(32:47):
So with regards to.
Other men that you've seen whohave gone to boarding school and
have this post, um, posttraumatic stress.
What are the reoccurring themesthat you see in men like this?
Piers (33:02):
Yeah, I've mentioned them before.
I think it's addictions, youknow, either cocaine or alcohol
or pornography or having affairswith people, sex addictions.
There's also workaholism, theaddiction of they just can't
(33:25):
stop.
And that often comes fromboarding school because we've
got this thing calledtimetabling that Nick Duffell
says, you know, you go toboarding school from seven
o'clock in the morning till nine30 at night.
You are.
Timetabled.
You don't, you know, I wastalking to someone on a podcast
a couple of days ago.
He says that the averageboarding school week is about 80
hours for a child.
(33:47):
You've got an 80 hour week for achild, you know, and the same
for the teachers, and the thingthey're currently struggling
with is burnout.
Like you've said, you've saidearlier about, you know, having
that softness.
There's no softness there.
So we're just like, go, go, go,go, go.
Now I see people in my work, thetwenties and often the thirties,
(34:08):
they're really productive.
They do wonderful things becausethey've dissociated.
They're just blah, blah, blah,blah, blah.
But eventually they break out,they burn out.
They can't go on because there'snot, you know, this ultradian
rhythm of on and then off.
It's just on all the time.
So that's often what I see.
(34:30):
And.
You know, when I go to the restof Europe, I remember I was in
Greece a couple of years ago fora holiday, sat in the airport
and there were workers just satdown just chatting.
And I was like, you would neversee that in Britain.
You're expected to always be onthe go or you go home.
(34:50):
And it was just really nice tosee that, that, that, that kind
of on and then off.
What other things do I see?
Relationship breakdown.
Because there's no ability toconnect to their emotions, they
find it very difficult to be inrelationship.
You know, as Jung said, it'slike it's projection.
We project out that which wewill not look at within
(35:13):
ourselves that we've dissociateonto our partners.
If we're in a position ofleadership, we'll put that onto
the people we're leading.
UK, I see there's a huge issueat the moment with vulnerability
and the people who arevulnerable, the older, the
children, or the, you know, uh,Uh, the infirm because the our
(35:33):
leaders learn to hate thevulnerable inside themselves and
therefore they cannot, if theyhate that within themselves,
they'll project it out ontosociety.
Jung said, he said, thepsychological rule says that
when an inner situation is notmade conscious, it happens
outside as fate.
And this is what I see.
(35:53):
The other thing is emotion.
He's, especially if we're in aposition of leadership,
Professor Antonio DeMasio'swork, he says you cannot make
good decisions without emotionalinformation.
If you've dissociated from youremotions, which is the principal
effect of boarding school, yougo and if you show anger, you're
laughed at, you're calledpsycho, if you cry, you're
(36:15):
called a wimp, and you'rebullied.
You learn to become dissociated.
And so we struggle makingdecisions.
And I see Britain is currentlygoing through that at the moment
is that it's the consequence ofreally poor decisions for
decades in this country, becausepeople haven't been able to
(36:37):
connect to their emotions, youknow, empathy.
What other things would I saythat I see with people?
I think those are most of them,you know, feeling isolated as
well.
They feel they're on their own.
You know, especially people whoare in positions of leadership,
(36:58):
very, feel very isolated.
There's no one they can reallytalk to.
No one really understands them.
So yeah, those are some of them,James.
James (37:08):
So how can, if somebody's going through this, how can they
start to break the cycles?
Piers (37:13):
Yeah, there's, there's many ways.
I mean, I have lots of podcasts.
I've done 120 episodes, mainlyaround this subject of boarding
school.
So it's, I think because it'scomplex PTSD, I feel you've got
to be quite varied and complexin your healing.
So cognitive, you know, I wouldrecommend reading, You know, you
(37:36):
know, books like this, TheMaking of Them by Nick Duffell.
Uh, this is another great one,Wounded Leaders by Nick Duffell.
Um, there's George Shavarian'sbook as well, Boarding School
Syndrome.
So I think that's the cognitiveside.
Understand it.
And I've interviewed all thesepeople on my podcast.
It is to go, ah, yeah.
(37:59):
This is, this is, this is me tounderstand.
That's the first level.
Second level would be join agroup.
And I I've stopped the men'sgroup at the moment, but there
are, it's an organization calledseen and heard, which one of my
clients is, is part of, andit's, it runs weekly check in
(38:22):
circles.
So you can go as an exporter andyou can hear other people's
stories.
So I think that's important forus to realize we're not alone.
They're isolation or I'd breakthat down.
Meet other people here.
Oh my God.
You went through the same thing.
The other thing is one to onework, you know, whether it's a
(38:42):
therapist or a coach.
You find someone, a counsellor,who understands about boarding
school and there's a website outthere called
boardingschoolsurvivors.
co.
uk or com, which is NickDuffell's workshop, um,
workshops and, uh, resource.
And you can find a, a, a persontrained in boarding school
(39:06):
syndrome and they willunderstand what you're going
through.
Some therapists, it's becomingmore well known, but a lot don't
necessarily understand that it'sa trauma.
Yes, not everyone is negativelyimpacted by these schools, I
need to say that.
And not, not everyone istraumatized, but everyone has to
survive, as Nick Duffell says.
(39:28):
We have to survive, we have tocreate a survival personality in
order to survive in theseinstitutions.
And part of the work is todismantle this survival
personality.
James (39:39):
So with regards to your documentary on boarding schools,
can you tell us a little bitabout that?
Piers (39:47):
Yeah, so I wrote a book a number of years ago and About my
boarding school experience, itwas rejected by the publisher.
And I was like, going back tothe drawing board, starting to
write again, you know, edit it.
And then I was talking to acouple of friends.
One's a film producer, anotheris a director, and I just said,
(40:10):
I want to make a film.
I think, and we just talkedabout it.
It's like, let's do it then.
So this was about three yearsago.
So we just began by interviewingpeople, you know, putting ideas
down kind of what could we do,where could we film?
So we started to film.
And, and so what I see is it's abit like, that the idea is I
(40:34):
there's my story, my, what Iwent through at boarding school.
And then the next level is,well, who else has had these
experiences?
And so we've interviewed, we dida retreat where we heard other
people's stories at boardingschools.
And then the next level is theleaders.
Well, if these are theexperiences of the, the, the
(40:55):
people at boarding school, whatare the lead, the leader's
experiences?
And so we've interviewedexperts.
We spoke to Dr.
Gabor Maté, spoken to NickDuffell, Joy Shavarian, Alex
Renton, people who are very wellknown in this field.
And then it's to ask, what's theimpact on the rest of us?
(41:16):
And so in the film, we'veinterviewed historian as well,
SI Martin, who talks aboutslavery, how slavery and the
boarding schools were linked aswell.
Um, for example, one of the mostwell known slavers in the UK
went to my boarding school andthe money he got from this, the
(41:36):
slave trade he's channeled intothe boarding school.
So it was like almost a direct,direct link between slavery and
these boarding schools.
So we bring that in to the, thedocumentary and then, yeah,
looking at the path of healingas well.
How do we transform?
How do we move it from posttraumatic stress to post
(41:57):
traumatic growth?
How do we use this as our gift?
And I think that's the keymessage I want to say.
Sometimes we get locked in thepoor me, the victim, it was
terrible.
We need to grieve.
First way, you know, there'sthree levels really.
First is we're dissociated.
We've got to start to awaken towhat happened to us.
(42:20):
Second level is grieve.
We've got to grieve, go intothat space, that liminal space
as Robert Moore talks about.
The third level is then takingthat gift, as Joseph Campbell
says, back out into the world,the boon.
What is the gift that I'velearned by grieving going in?
What from that experience?
(42:40):
So for me, I'm passionate aboutclosing or converting all
boarding schools into sixth formcolleges.
You know, making it illegal toboard under 16 because I think
developmentally it's sodamaging.
And like I said, I've got 50biographies here.
Some of the most well knownpeople, John Peel, he was raped
(43:03):
at boarding school.
Boris Johnson was beaten.
There was sexual abuse going onin his boarding school.
David Cameron, he lost a stonein weight.
And was beaten at Tony Blair wasbeaten at school and he ran
away.
He not only ran away, but hetried to leave the country, got
on a plane, tried to leave thecountry.
You know, you realize there aredozens, if not hundreds of
(43:28):
stories like this of very wellknown people.
Uh, Richard Branson, he tried tocommit suicide at boarding
school.
You know, he wrote a suicidenote and he tried to walk off
the cliff, but the teachers andthe other people stopped him.
So it's like realizing, ah, thisis what happens and what can we
(43:51):
do?
So that's, yeah, some of my, myvision and the idea with it.
James (43:57):
Thank you very much.
It's been a very, veryinformative.
I'm kind of, um, just so much.
Going on in my head just tryingto figure kind of take all this
information in but can you tellpeople out there?
What is it that you exactly do?
Piers (44:13):
What is it I exactly do?
James (44:15):
So like what kind of the sessions one on one sessions or
group sessions?
Piers (44:22):
Yeah, so I've Stopped the group sessions at the moment,
but the one on one work is Youknow, it's maybe 12 weeks.
I will meet with someone.
It might be longer.
It's for me, creating a dailypractice.
It's one thing.
Another is goals.
(44:42):
Very important.
Whether you've been throughtrauma or you're just wanting
peak performances to have avision of where you're going.
Uh, next thing for me isemotional intelligence,
developing that, and also mentalresilience.
You know, creating that anotheraspect is that inner work,
finding those early parts ofourselves, grieving, letting
(45:05):
that go.
I teach people about leadership,you know, what makes a great
leader, the importance of loveand leadership, purpose as well,
you know, the importance ofpurpose to improve our mental
health and other such things,essentially, you know, and
there's so many levels to this.
(45:26):
I've just trained recently as a.
as a coach in more sexualhealing.
So because so many of my clientshave problems sexually, you
know?
So, um, yeah, that's, it'ssomething I love doing.
I've been, I don't know, 15,2006, I started, so 19 years
(45:50):
I've been doing it.
I've probably done four or 5,000 sessions with people.
Um, and it's something I'm justpassionate by.
So I'm always learning andgrowing.
So.
Yeah, that's, that's what I do.
I'm, I'm going to start a coursein the next few months, probably
after the film has gone out,called The Compassionate Leader,
which will be a 12 week courseand it will be, you know, group
(46:16):
coaching, but also going through12 modules about, well, how do
we develop, you know, to be acompassionate leader, to be in
high performance and be heartcentred as well.
James (46:29):
That's, that's what I'm doing.
Wonderful.
Thank you very much.
Thank you very much for yourtime, Piers.
It's been absolutely very, veryinformative, uh, episode.
Piers (46:42):
Well, thank you, James.
Thank you for doing thesepodcasts and, uh, you know, the
wonderful work you're doing.
Thank you for that.
James (46:49):
Thank you.
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