July 24, 2025 • 39 mins
In this heartfelt episode, I sit down with Kasryn Kapp, a therapist whose journey into private practice began with necessity—but has since blossomed into something truly sustainable. After leaving a dangerous and unsupportive agency job, Kasryn built a thriving full-fee practice centered on helping clients with insomnia and those learning to prioritize themselves for the first time.
Kasryn shares candidly about her early struggles—months without clients, confusion about her niche, and fear around marketing. She also opens up about the powerful mindset shifts that helped her step into a new season of safety, steadiness, and self-trust. Whether you're feeling stuck, scared, or simply unsure how to get traction, Kasryn’s story will remind you that slow growth can still be strong growth—and that marketing doesn’t have to mean spinning your wheels.
Here’s what you’ll learn in this episode:
1️⃣ How Kasryn found clarity in her niche—and why that clarity made her easier (and more exciting!) to refer to
2️⃣ The biggest marketing mistake she made early on, and what helped her finally start seeing results
3️⃣ How she shifted her money mindset, left insurance, and built a schedule that supports her life—not the other way around
Resources & Links Mentioned:
- Confident Copy: walkerstrategyco.com/cc
- Kasryn's free workshop
- Profit First for Therapists
- Join the Confident Copy waitlist: walkerstrategyco.com/waitlist
Connect + Subscribe
Enjoying the podcast? Subscribe so you never miss an episode—and feel free to share it with a fellow therapist who’s building their private practice.
Explore more marketing support for therapists: The Walker Strategy Co website: walkerstrategyco.com
About Marketing Therapy
Marketing Therapy is the podcast where therapists learn how to market their private practices without burnout, self-doubt, or sleazy tactics. Hosted by Anna Walker—marketing coach, strategist, and founder of Walker Strategy Co—each episode brings you clear, grounded advice to help you attract the right-fit, full-fee clients and grow a practice you feel proud of.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:16):
Hey there.
Welcome back to MarketingTherapy episode 17.
This one is really special.
In this episode, I am sitting downwith Kasryn Kapp, who is an incredibly
talented clinician in the Philadelphiaarea, who has a really remarkable story
of leaving her agency life literallyfor her own safety, jumping into
(00:38):
private practice, and now existingas a thriving full fee clinician.
Becoming well known in herniche and building a practice
that truly fits her life.
If that's your goal, then I think you'regonna take a lot away from Kasryn's story.
And if nothing else, over the next littlewhile, I think you're gonna be very,
very inspired by the story of someonewho was faced with adversity and turned
(01:01):
it into something that is going to serveher and her family for years to come.
Alright, that's enough from me.
Let's dive into this interview.
Kasryn Kapp (01:12):
My name's Catherine.
I use she her pronouns and Ihelp exhausted adults break the
cycle of sleepless nights usinga research backed approach.
That's my niche area and I'm atherapist licensed in Pennsylvania,
New Jersey, and I'm able toserve clients in Vermont as well.
Anna Walker (01:30):
That's a pretty, uh, polished niche statement there.
You've worked hard to, to get there.
You do.
In addition to your insomnia work, youalso see individuals outside of that.
Right.
Tell me a little bit aboutthe other clients you see.
Kasryn Kapp (01:42):
Yeah.
Thank you for asking that.
So I also help women andnon-binary folks who are putting
themselves last and want to start.
Moving up talking about it,even, they're not even ready to
start prioritizing themselves.
But I just wanna have someone to talkto who's not gonna disempower them.
And sometimes that happens after.
(02:03):
My clients are sleeping well,sometimes that's the next step.
You know, I've been self-sacrificingso much sleep went by the wayside.
Now I'm sleeping well and it'sopening up a door to other areas
of my life that I can now explore.
And sometimes clients find medirectly for that work as well.
I.
Anna Walker (02:21):
Cool.
I wanna hear more aboutthe niche work that you do.
'cause it is really unique.
Anytime I get to learn more aboutCBTI from you, I enjoy that.
But, tell us just to, as we get to knowyou a little bit more, what season of
life and of practice are you in right now?
How long have you been at this?
Kasryn Kapp (02:35):
Yeah, so I, in preparing for this, I looked at it and I'm shocked
to see it's been three years this month.
July 1st.
And, we'll talk about this too, butit was really difficult at first.
I didn't know what my niche was.
I'd been a generalist working in communitymental health, so it almost feels like
(02:55):
it's been two years because the firstyear I was just figuring out, up from
down and how to be an entrepreneur, how tobe in private practice, uh, all of that.
So, yeah, it feels a little surreal.
And then.
Of life.
I am really coming into.
What does it look like to putmyself first to do the work
(03:18):
that I'm now doing with clients?
Like what do I love now?
You know, I'm been, I've been goingto the pool in the middle of the day.
I love that.
Um, going to, yeah, my partner'smedical appointment and being able to
support 'em and what, it just feels sodifferent from the kind of grind, hustle,
grind work that I was in for so long.
(03:40):
So I really.
Exciting and exploratory phase of life.
Anna Walker (03:48):
Well, that's an exciting one to be in.
I love that.
tell us a little bit aboutwhere this all started.
Kind of take us back to the beginning.
You were in community mental health.
What led you to decide to jump intothe whole private practice thing?
Kasryn Kapp (04:00):
Yeah, so I'd been doing that community mental health,
high acuity, federally qualifiedhealth center kind of work for seven
years, and I knew I was burnt out.
In my mind at that time, self-carewas taking like a weekend trip
(04:20):
or doing more meditation andit really, and pushing through.
I think it's so easy for pushingthrough to become a habit.
It's part of the culture there and Ithought I could keep doing that forever
and that was not the case for me.
I ended up burning out.
(04:41):
So much that I had to quit.
And there's also gunviolence thoughts at work.
It just wasn't a safe environment.
So I had to leave for my safety really.
That was the beginning.
It was a rough start.
I wouldn't recommend it.
I didn't
Anna Walker (04:56):
know this about you.
This is, yeah.
Really interesting.
So I think sometimes when people gointo private practice, it's because
they have these big, lofty goals forthemselves, which you very well may have
had, but you were also just making a.
Necessary decision for yourself.
So in some ways, did you feel alittle bit forced into this or
did you enter into it excited?
Kasryn Kapp (05:14):
It's the best thing that ever happened to me, but it
did at the time, feel very forced.
I was applying for other W2 jobs in asimilar environment that I was used to.
And I need reasonable accommodations,especially in COVID, that I'm
partially deaf and the masksmake it really difficult.
I could not get an interview wherethey would provide accommodations.
(05:39):
So it wasn't a possibility almost.
It felt like, I mean, I'm sureeventually I could have found
something, but I was being turnedaway experiencing discrimination.
And so, you know, I had a friendin private practice who had been
encouraging me to do it, and I wasafraid of entrepreneurship that.
Would mean that it would be hustlingforever, which is not true, but that was
(06:03):
my belief that it would be constantlyunsteady, which is also not true.
I'm so much more steadyand safe than I was then.
But yeah, I really did feel I.
Forced into it
Anna Walker (06:17):
so you got started and if you can bring yourself back to those
early days, what were those challenges?
You mentioned kinda that first yearwas just learning kind of up from
down and how to be an entrepreneur.
What were some of those initialchallenges where you, you know, that
kind of got us to where we are today?
Kasryn Kapp (06:32):
Yeah, so some of the challenges felt like, you know,
this is just a learning curve.
I need to figure it out.
Like getting a bookkeepingsystem set up and.
Telehealth and EHR andall that kind of stuff.
But the biggest challenge, which Ithink a lot of people listening will
resonate with listening to marketingtherapy, is marketing niching.
(06:57):
Shocking.
How do I find them?
Yeah.
And it continues to be, I think, fora lot of people, a real pain point.
And so that was my biggestchallenge and I think.
I kind of feel like, and you'vehelped me and I can't thank you
enough, and Anna's not paying me tosay this, but, you helped me so much.
(07:17):
I feel like I have a system nowthat works, so it's still something
I need to work on, but I feellike I've figured it out for now.
But that was a huge pain point.
I didn't have any clients for like.
Four or five months, it was challenging.
Anna Walker (07:32):
Yeah.
Yeah.
In those early days.
And you're absolutely right.
Some of this is just natural.
Like it's very abnormal to start yourpractice and all of a sudden just be
fully booked and thriving and, you know,everything's sunshine and rainbows.
Like that isn't reality.
There is a curve.
But those early days ofI remember when we met.
I remember when you sent me yourfirst couple of emails wondering about
working together and that sort of thing.
(07:53):
What were you doing in your marketingthat you felt like wasn't working?
What were you trying thatdidn't feel like it was landing?
Kasryn Kapp (08:00):
Yeah.
I was spinning my wheels followingshiny objects, trying to do everything.
I had an Instagram.
I was networking, but my nichestatement wasn't clear at all.
I was.
On every directory Icould get my hands on.
(08:20):
And I was shocked that none of itwas working because in my mind,
and this is something I'm learningtoo, working hard means results.
Now that's shifted to takingthe right action, which is often
less work leads to results.
So yeah, I was kind of, just frantic.
(08:41):
Yeah.
And at the time too, I can'temphasize enough the importance
of having an emergency savings,which saved me through this time
where I had to quit and then I was.
Figuring out entrepreneurship.
But yeah, that's just kind ofwhat I was doing at the time.
Anna Walker (08:56):
Yeah.
And you also have left insurance, whichwe'll get to a little bit, but I know some
of the earlier kind of beliefs and doubtsyou talked about, things like it's always,
going to require hustling and that it'salways good to be unstable, but there are
also some money messages and things likethat you've really had to wrestle with.
Do you feel like there are otherbeliefs that you were holding
then that maybe have shifted now?
Kasryn Kapp (09:17):
Yeah, absolutely.
Yeah.
There's a lot of moneymindset work in this.
I think our profession isreally devalued, the pay being.
So little for the amount of work.
It's not just, and everyone listeningknows it's not just a session too.
It's everything that goes into it.
And so I had this belief that,you know, if you charge too
(09:39):
much, you're a bad person.
If you have money, you're bad.
There's all kinds of clichesabout wealth being bad.
And I really am againstthe wealth inequality.
Like I really want us to all.
Share resources more equitably.
But what I realized and a belief I'vekind of come to is that me making myself
(10:02):
small doesn't make other people wealthy.
It just makes me small and supportsthe system that wants me as a
disabled, queer woman to be small.
Anna Walker (10:13):
Gotcha.
Yeah, just kind of figuringout where you fit in all that.
Alright, I wanna knowmore about your niche.
So tell me how you came intoInsomnia work, why you love it.
It's a unique one.
I think the standard niche these days,is quite a bit different from this.
So tell me about how you came intothis niche, what you love about it.
Kasryn Kapp (10:32):
First of all, the statement I give at the beginning, my elevator
pitch niche statement is so important tohave that people understand what I do,
and you helped me with that confidentcopy helped me with that so much.
But as for the niche itself incollege, I wasn't sleeping well.
I had insomnia, and I was luckyenough to have a therapist who was
(10:56):
trained in the modality that I useCBTI and I was really skeptical.
At first I thought, yeah.
I've already done everything.
I did the sleep hygienething, this isn't gonna work.
Lo and behold it did.
It really worked very well.
And I have a family history of insomnia.
You know, I have a lot of things that werestories that this wouldn't work for me,
(11:19):
but it did and it's continues to work.
And despite, even despite all thosestressors and the burnout, I was sleeping.
So that was like such a godsend.
So that's how I got into it.
And then I had a pretty confusing niche.
Conglomerate before I started ConfidentCopy and Insomnia was in there and
(11:40):
I got a lot of traction with it.
People were really interested init and so I got a few clients.
Those were my first few clients and Iremembered how much I loved to do it.
I've been integrating it at In inCommunity Mental health, but you
really can't specialize there.
So I would do it and then not have anyclients for a while and then do it again.
But I realized how much Ilove to do it, so I decided to
(12:02):
zoom in on that and it's been.
Fantastic.
Anna Walker (12:06):
Yeah, I remember that.
Work with you early on, in Confident copywhere you were deciding 'cause you had
come in seeing this wider range of clientsand you decided, you know, I am gonna
own this, while still honoring that, non.
Insomnia client that we were talkingabout earlier, those women and
non-binary folks who, have been makingthemselves small and that sort of thing.
But seeing you embody that I think hasserved you incredibly well these days.
(12:28):
And like you said, you gettraction with a niche like that.
Kasryn Kapp (12:32):
Yeah.
And it gives me freedom toreally train further in it.
You'd think with sleep, we knoweverything there is to know.
We've been doing it for all of humanityand time, but we're learning more.
All the time.
There's new treatments coming out.
One just came out last year.
There's another one burgeoning comingout, and so it affords me the time to
(12:55):
learn more about, it's so fascinating.
I could do only trainingson it and a little bit of
clinical work and I'd be happy.
Uh, it's, it's how wonderful
Anna Walker (13:02):
to love your work that much.
Kasryn Kapp (13:04):
Yeah.
Very refreshing.
From before where there's likea boss and you have to meet the
productivity hours and it's.
Fueled by fear.
Anna Walker (13:13):
Absolutely.
Tell me a little bit, I don'tknow if I know this, how did you
first learn about Confident Copy?
Kasryn Kapp (13:21):
So I think the very first point of contact was a Facebook ad.
I.
I don't remember what it said, butyou looked really nice in the picture.
Well, thank you.
And I was, you know, grabbingonto anything that would
help and I I followed that.
I think it was, I don't really remember.
I think it was one ofthose free trainings.
(13:43):
And I told my business bestie about it.
And she took the leap before I did.
She was like, I think this is good.
And then she talked me into it.
If you can have a business buddythat's like on the same journey as
you, that's so powerful because I wasreally afraid that I would get scammed.
I was investing my own personalsavings into the business.
(14:05):
So there was a lot of feararound investing in things, and I
didn't think about it like that.
I was thinking about it as anexpense, but instead of an investment.
We can talk more about that later, butyeah, I think it was a Facebook ad.
Anna Walker (14:18):
Yeah.
Interesting.
I think a lot of clinicians, especiallythose who were in kind of that stage
that you were in, can identify withthe idea of just grabbing for anything.
Like I will, I will watch anywebinar that you tell me to watch.
I will download every freebie, Iwill join every Facebook group.
I will read every blog post, and thatcan be really overwhelming and it
can, I think, be difficult to discern.
(14:39):
What is actually the rightquote unquote advice.
What stood out to you as faras confident copy goes that
felt like it was the right one.
Not that it's the only one, and itcertainly isn't the only resource you've
used, but what stood out to you thatmade you think like, okay, among all
the things I'm grabbing, maybe thisis a good one to like take hold of
Kasryn Kapp (14:58):
two things.
Most importantly wasword of mouth referral.
Like it really worked for peoplewho did it and they were living
the life that I wanted to live.
That's, I mean, more than anythinganyone could say is someone did that
program and saw success with it.
Sure.
And I said, I want that too.
(15:18):
The other thing was accessibility.
You have really greataccessibility features.
You have captions on the calls,and that's a boundary for me.
Like, I'm not gonna put myself in asituation anymore where I don't have that.
So I really, I'm grateful toyou because it's a, a lot of
other programs don't do that.
Anna Walker (15:34):
Such an easy thing to do.
Um, that's, that's shocking tome, but I'm so glad to be able
to create a community like that.
During Confident Copy, obviously wedid a lot of work around your niche
and we've touched on that a little bit.
What tools support, you know, whatparts of the program really stood
out to you or do you feel like werethe most valuable on your journey?
Kasryn Kapp (15:51):
Yeah, I really liked the coaching calls.
I think.
It gave me a lot of insight.
There were people who were slightlyahead of me and that was helpful.
People on the call saying, Hey, I putmy website, this page up, and I got a
client that kind of, okay, this is real.
(16:14):
I can do this.
The momentum.
So, so that community aspect I think.
And then also there wasa lot of structure and.
Clarity and you weren't telling me whatto say, but you're telling me what are
clients looking for in this section?
That's so helpful.
'cause it never occurred to me.
(16:36):
And I think that that's where alot of people fall prey to trying
to speak to like colleagues ortrying to do what sounds smart.
Be like, Hey, clients wanna knowthat you're nice and you're human
and here's how can you speak to that?
Anna Walker (16:48):
Yeah.
Uh, what surprised you about kind of yourown growth through that process, figuring
out your niche, writing a website,that, that really aligned with it.
Is there anything that you look backand you were like especially proud
of or surprised by as far as yourown change that you experienced?
Kasryn Kapp (17:04):
I think before I felt like, so I bike a lot.
I love cycling and I feltlike the chain was off.
Like I was spinning thewheels and going nowhere.
Hmm.
And I feel like confident copyput the chain on the bike so
that I'm not spinning my wheels.
Like the effort I was puttingin was really working.
(17:26):
So I think what surprised me is,you know, a lot of those doubts and
stories about entrepreneurship isconstantly hustling or even not taking
insurance is constantly hustling.
You know, I think a lotof those narratives.
It surprised me when they were challengedand I can put in work and go further.
Anna Walker (17:45):
Less
Kasryn Kapp (17:45):
work.
Anna Walker (17:46):
I think that's, yeah.
What a wonderful metaphor.
I love that.
Um, Catherine, you're one of thosepeople that I think you and I
love meeting clinicians like you.
Who are you?
You could have taken confident copy,you could have not taken confident copy.
I think you still wouldhave been successful.
If you hadn't, where do youthink you would be right now?
Kasryn Kapp (18:04):
That's my kind of view.
I think I may have eventually figuredit out, but trying to do it piecemeal
with the free stuff it would'vetaken me so long to figure it out.
I think I would be on the platformsand desperately wanting to get off.
I think I really am hesitant.
I wanna say that if being on aplatform is what works for you
(18:26):
and your family and your business,there's no shame or judgment at all.
I really.
Don't trust them.
I don't trust their mission.
I don't trust what they're doing.
And I think I would feel likeI had to be on them and I'd
wanna get off but not know how.
Mm.
So I think that's where I'dbe without confident Copy.
I also think even if I had figured itout, and I think we're gonna talk about
(18:49):
income too, but confident Copy reallywas an investment in the sense that
the payoff is continuing and building.
Along with the work that Iput into it and built on it.
So I think I'd probably have a hard timemeeting the income goals that I have
now, or the ones that I met last year.
Anna Walker (19:08):
Yeah.
Yeah.
Cool.
So Post Confident copy, you launchedyour website, you've left insurance.
Tell me a little bit about, that wasabout three years ago, was in that
first year that you took Confident copy.
How are things going today?
What have you, you know, accomplished?
Whether that is a tangible, you know,kind of concrete thing or we can get
into the intangible the confidence,the sustainability, the safety you
(19:31):
mentioned that you're feeling today.
Kasryn Kapp (19:34):
Yeah.
Yeah, I think in the intangible, I'vekind of set up the situation where
I don't really have to work morethan 35 hours a week, which feels
kind of weird and illegal and like,so I'm gonna get in trouble with
someone or something, I don't know.
So
Anna Walker (19:53):
after years of being in community mental health, that might
just be a deeply ingrained thing.
Kasryn Kapp (19:57):
It's pretty ingrained.
Right.
And I started working ata really young age too.
And so I think that.
Employee kind of work a certain numberof hours is really deeply ingrained.
So, you know, exploringthat and getting used to it.
And then income too.
Like last year I made more moneythan I ever made at a W2 job seeing.
(20:18):
Way fewer clients becauseof confident copy.
You know, I also did some other worktoo, of course, networking and building a
community around the money mindset piece.
Um, but in 2024, Mike Grossrevenue, so pre-tax, pre expenses
was 89,000, just over 89,000,seeing about 13 clients a week.
(20:42):
And then this year I'm ontrack to make the same.
So far this year I've made a little bitmore than last year, so far last year,
so the first six months of the year.
Um, but seeing fewer clientsand not being on insurance.
So yeah.
Lots of wins and thank you for that.
Yeah.
Anna Walker (21:03):
Um, what was the process like of getting off of insurance and where,
where in your journey did that happen?
Kasryn Kapp (21:08):
Yeah, that's really recent.
Um, I've been slowly, I.
Moving away from it for, I mean,pretty much since I started.
But I officially ended all contracts,um, at the end of May, and then I of
two clients at the beginning of June.
So this
Anna Walker (21:28):
last month, very recent.
Wow, I didn't realize that.
Okay.
Kasryn Kapp (21:31):
Yeah.
Anna Walker (21:31):
Congratulations.
Kasryn Kapp (21:32):
Yeah, but I've been slowly tapering.
So the, it was a platformthat I was on, and you can.
Limit your intakes.
So I hadn't been accepting newclients for a very long time,
tapering off and building theprivate pay side for a long time.
But officially all in private pay.
It's very recent.
Anna Walker (21:53):
Wow.
Congratulations.
I didn't realize I was gettingto sit down with you at such an
exciting point in your practice.
So if you imagine yourself today, goingto the pool in the afternoons, you know,
being able to go to your partner's medicalappointments compared to back in the day
grinding, hustling chain off the bike.
What feels different?
How are you different as abusiness owner, as just a human?
(22:15):
What do you feel like haschanged for you since then?
Kasryn Kapp (22:18):
I think I feel so much more autonomy.
Before even with the platform,there was sort of a boss there.
Even if it's technically your 10 99.
If they said you haveto do this new workflow.
Then you kind of have to do it.
(22:39):
But now, and increasingly Ifeel like, oh, actually I don't
think that's best client care.
I don't think that's ethical, forexample integrating AI in ways
that I think, I'm not against it,but I think it's integrated really
quickly and not necessarily withclient care at the forefront.
And so.
You know, having the autonomy tomake decisions, what's gonna be the
(23:04):
best for my practice for myself?
I think that's kind ofthe overarching theme.
And then also just shifting mymindset now that I've set this up to
I can relax into it kind of thing.
Anna Walker (23:17):
Mm-hmm.
What a great feeling.
One thing that's always important to me,and that's curious to me as well is to.
Be honest about the fact that growinga practice and marketing, here we are
in like the marketing therapy podcast.
It doesn't stop.
So you can go through Confident Copyand graduate and create a website,
and the marketing doesn't end there.
(23:38):
It hopefully takes on a new, anew flavor and feels differently
and gets different results.
But at the end of the day, you like,that's something that continues
for the life of your practice.
Um, and one of the things I love is thatit can look a lot of different ways.
You can, may be dancing on Instagramand making reels and getting clients and
you can be networking and you can be.
Sitting behind your computer and blogging.
(23:59):
Right.
There's lots of different ways to do it.
What for you has been important andwhat types of regular marketing are
you involved in on a consistent basis?
Kasryn Kapp (24:10):
Yeah, so just to speak to what you said, that's so true.
You do have to continue.
But something I've found is it feelsmore like building a body of work than.
Just constantly doing things totry to hope something sticks.
So, like I was doingbefore, confident Coffee.
(24:31):
Yeah.
So I do still work now and I still engagein it, but one example is I have a free
workshop for therapist if you're curiousto learn more about sleep therapy.
It's on my website slash prevent.
Um, oh, cool.
We'll put that in the show notes.
You can check that out.
Um, but that kinda lives on my websiteand it is a free resource for therapists.
(24:54):
I think reflecting on my experienceas a client, I was really grateful
that I had a therapist who knew aboutthis, and so I wanna share that.
And also it helps.
Therapists become aware thatthere are effective tools, not
just sleep hygiene, which we'vealready tried and it didn't work.
Um, that there are answers.
So it serves two purposes.
(25:15):
One, it feels really good.
I can help colleagues, I can help clientslike me who needed someone who knew that.
And also it helps establish credibility.
Like I know what I'm talking about.
I'm a real person 'cause youcan see me talking on the video.
And so that's something I did, but itkind of hangs out there and it's not
like I have to constantly do it allthe time and it works for me, I guess.
(25:37):
Mm-hmm, yeah, so I do thingslike that and that I would put
in the networking category.
I host queer networking groups locally,online, and that's really rewarding
being able to bring people together.
I just love talking with people.
I like networking.
That's, I think, kind of uniqueabout me from what I get.
Yes, most of
Anna Walker (25:57):
the clinicians I serve don't necessarily feel that way about it.
Kasryn Kapp (26:00):
Yeah.
Most people don't.
There are ways to do it that arepowerful and, and don't have to look like
what I'm doing, so keep that in mind.
I like it.
So that's unique.
Yeah.
So I love just getting together.
Like last week I got together at a coffeeshop with some wonderful colleagues
who have really interesting specialtiesand we just talked about our work.
(26:24):
It was really cool.
Beautiful day, kind of hot, but yeah,in the middle of a Wednesday, you know?
And, um, so that I also do SEO work.
I'm told my SEO is pretty goodby the Google people I talk to.
I of course, confident copybuilds that in, so there's a
fantastic foundation there.
(26:46):
And then I do blogging.
Honestly, it's really sporadic.
I don't like blogging, so ifyou like blogging, good for you.
I like networking, butI yeah, try to do that.
Somewhat consistently.
Blogging and then directories, nichespecific directories have been fantastic.
So those are my three.
Yeah.
As you tell us to pick two tothree, that's really helpful.
(27:08):
'cause I would do everythingand if I don't limit it and I
don't need to do everything, butnetworking, SEO and directories.
Anna Walker (27:15):
I love that.
Um, I remember you talking about havingnetworked with some, some new colleagues
fairly recently after your time inConfident Copy, and they said that they
were excited to refer to you and thatthat was, that was a new experience.
I.
Kasryn Kapp (27:29):
Oh yeah.
But, but my niche, before I couldn'teven give you a niche statement.
It was like, I like helping people andI also like this and I also like that.
And people, I think they wantedto help me and they were just
really confused about what I did.
And so now people tend to getmore, oh, I had someone who really.
(27:51):
Needs this kind of workand it works better.
And also, I understand that feelingbecause sometimes I have that with people.
Like, I love connecting with thiswonderful therapist, but I don't
understand who's a good fit for her.
Like, I wanna send her people, but Ican't connect it with somebody in my mind.
So I think they appreciate ittoo, but I've had people say.
(28:12):
Wow.
I'm so excited to refer toyou, which was shocking to me.
'cause the reaction before was, Idon't know if I have anybody like that.
Anna Walker (28:19):
Yeah.
Right, right.
I think that's a something that's commonlyforgotten when clinicians are networking,
that it's critical that you are memorable.
You have to be easy to refer toif you want networking to work.
And that starts with having aclear understanding of what it,
what the heck you actually do.
Right.
Um, that's where that kind of all starts.
Kasryn Kapp (28:37):
Yeah.
Yeah, it's helpful I think onboth sides too, like if, if I am
speaking to that, it helps them.
Understand, it just takes kindof the mental work off of their
plate of trying to think about it.
And also now that I have more timeto even further my specialization, do
more training, it gives an opportunityto be a resource for people too,
(29:01):
which feels really good for me.
Like if people are like, oh, I have aclient with hot flashes, for example.
It gives me a lot of timeto take a really deep dive.
Everything there's to know about hotflashes, journal articles about it.
Books and then consult and then I knowmore about hot flashes and they get the
benefit of that work and it just works.
(29:22):
Yeah.
Anna Walker (29:23):
I love that.
It's really cool, Catherine, to hearyour sort of evolution as a business
owner being essentially forced intoit for your own wellbeing and now.
By all accounts thriving.
Certainly there's room and we'lltalk about your future goals, but
really cool to hear that evolution.
One thing that I wanna call outthat is really a powerful shift is
(29:43):
this idea of viewing investmentslike confident copy, other resources
you've used to grow your practiceas investments and not as expensive.
Can you tell me more about that?
Kasryn Kapp (29:54):
Yeah.
Anna Walker (29:55):
So.
Kasryn Kapp (29:56):
This almost sounds like business influencer thing, but going
from an employee mindset, I don't knowwhat else to call it, of like this is
an expense I have to justify to my boss.
Now this is some a cost thatis gonna bring down whatever
the revenue or whatever.
This is something that's gonna pay foritself, but also make my life easier.
(30:19):
It's going to be an investmentin the true cents of the word.
That's kind of a, a growth edge that Ihave now and that I've been working on.
And, some wonderful colleagues havehelped me with that because I was so
very much thinking about confidentcopy as this is something that's
gonna cost my business versus.
This is something that'sgonna make my business bloom.
(30:42):
And so, yeah, it's definitelya shift in mindset.
Anna Walker (30:47):
Yeah.
Do you continue to look at investmentsand expenses these days in that way
too, when you're sort of considering,you know, a training, I think tends to
be a little bit more of a, traditionalway of thinking about an investment.
But anytime effectively you'respending money on your business, are
you looking at it through that lens?
Kasryn Kapp (31:04):
Yeah, that's something I'm actively working on 'cause it's
not something that just changed.
So when I'm looking at some extra fundsthat I have, how do I wanna use that?
I am, I have a note on my,like business bookkeeping.
I have a whole system for that.
And part of it is a reminder aboutis this, what's the ROI on this?
(31:26):
Is it an investment?
And sometimes there are expenses like.
Things that aren't gonna necessarilyinfluence, but maybe I want them.
And then that's great.
You know, it does, not everything isan investment, but looking for that
because I think it, it was an importantshift that got me to where I am and
it's something that my, my business.
Buddies helped me with too.
Anna Walker (31:47):
Yeah.
Cool.
Tell me what you're excited about next.
I mean, you just officially, de paneled.
So what are you excited about personally,professionally, whatever it may be as you
look ahead into the rest of the year andinto the coming years as a practice owner.
Kasryn Kapp (32:03):
Yeah.
So into the coming year I havea very ambitious side that's.
Wonderful and sometimes servesme, and sometimes it's just
high functioning anxiety.
So my goal for this year, as ofnow, is to make the same as I
made last year without insurance.
(32:24):
It's working so far.
I am feeling really hopeful about it.
I think I tend to get really ambitious.
I do have a big goal that I want,but I'm gonna move that out a little
bit as a way to challenge that.
Achiever, like teacher's pet,good goal conditioning kind of way
that I naturally follow through.
(32:47):
Yeah, so my goal is to make thesame, so a little bit over $89,000.
Um, and I won't need to seeas many clients to do that
and to just enjoy life more.
And then, my big goal is to payoff all my student loan debt.
Buy a house in the area whereI live, which is an urban area,
so it's expensive and give mypartner the option to not work.
(33:11):
So to do that, I needto make $200,000 a year.
Okay.
Can't see my face on thepodcast, but that is an audition.
She's saying
Anna Walker (33:19):
it out loud.
Kasryn Kapp (33:22):
Yeah, it's, I'm saying it out loud.
It's real.
And I'm not gonna push.
Myself too much to get there.
But I think what I'm learning is thatthere's so much possibility and saying
it out loud with generosity and spaceto get there, not pushing to get there.
Anna Walker (33:39):
That's powerful.
That's powerful to set a goal that hasgenerosity and space, not pressure.
That's huge.
And I think you're gonna meet it.
And then some, I mean like yousaid, there's so much possibility.
Many people are listening who Ithink can identify with your journey.
Maybe they're in that spinning chainoff phase or maybe they're in the phase
of having de paneled and are lookingat what to do and what investments
(34:02):
to make, what's worth their time.
What would you want to tell those people?
Kasryn Kapp (34:10):
Well, I, just to rehash a little bit the thinking about ROI, that's
something that a good advice I got was tolook at that build a community, even if
you don't like networking, not thinkingabout it like that, but just colleagues.
Who have a similar wayof thinking about things.
(34:31):
I don't think I would be rightwithout my colleague who talked me
into confident copy, like she helpedme so much to, to make these moves.
So build a community.
I mean, I think Confident Copyis a fantastic investment.
So if you're thinking about it, go for it.
But also look for word of mouth referrals.
(34:52):
If you're looking at somethingyou're not sure think about ROI and
have an emergency savings first.
Yeah, you
Anna Walker (34:59):
mentioned that earlier.
Kasryn Kapp (35:00):
It's a little off topic, but it's, it was so
important in my journey that I hadthat because it opened up space.
To explore and to take this path.
Anna Walker (35:11):
Yeah.
I actually wanna ask one more questionand that's, and I, I think this
resonates deeply with me because inmy own therapy work, I've realized
my number one value is security.
Mm.
Um, and so anytime someone mentionsthings like that, my ears perk up.
But you mentioned that you actuallyfeel more safe and secure now
than you did in a W2 position.
Can you tell me more about that?
(35:32):
Because I think ultimatelya lot of us are seeking.
That and early on in private practice,it can feel like you can't find
safety or security anywhere you look.
So what's that been like for you?
Kasryn Kapp (35:44):
Yeah, well it's fantastic.
And I think there's acouple elements at play.
One is.
The autonomy piece I mentioned earlier,I'm not being pressured to do something
that would put my license at risk, whichhappens in community mental health.
(36:04):
You're asked to do things thatare not ethical sometimes.
And so that makes me feel more secure.
I have my own malpractice insurance.
They work for me versusworking for my company who.
May throw me under the bus.
They could, I don't know ifthey would, but they could.
I can make sure that my accommodationneeds are met or I don't participate.
(36:26):
I'm not gonna bepressured to do something.
When I don't have what I need to do well.
So that makes me feel more secure.
And then on the money side I knowwhat's going on behind the scenes so
often they would say, oh, we can'tafford to pay you more because of
budget, but we never saw the budget.
I don't, and I don't know.
(36:48):
So that black box behindthe scenes, so I know.
What's coming in, I know what's goingon, and I use the profit first cash
management system, which I recommend.
There's a book profitfirst for therapists.
And so that makes mefeel really secure too.
Like I pay myself a regular salary,so when I make more, I set that aside.
(37:10):
I pay myself a regular salary.
It feels very secure, and I knowwhat's going on behind the curtains.
Absolutely.
That's, I think most of it.
Anna Walker (37:19):
Yeah.
Yeah.
Cool.
Thank you for that.
Alright, Catherine, I don't think Ihave any more questions for you today.
Um, this has been such a wonderful I,I, I just love getting to learn more
about you and to hear about your journeyand that evolution as a business owner
and to know where you're at today.
If you could go back and say onething to that earlier version
of yourself, what would you say?
Kasryn Kapp (37:41):
You don't have to suffer like this.
You don't have to make yourselfsmall and making it so you
thrive doesn't hurt other people.
You can be safe and that helps otherpeople, helps the people around you.
And so.
I think that's what I would say.
I'd have a lot more specificadvice, but I think I touched
(38:01):
on that all throughout this.
Anna Walker (38:03):
Yeah.
Yeah.
That's wonderful.
Catherine, thank you somuch for being here today.
Kasryn Kapp (38:07):
Yeah.
Thank you for having me.
And thank you for all youdo to help therapists.
Truly like I do, free promo for youall the time, and it's because what you
do is really, truly helpful and you,you get what we need to do to thrive.
So thank you for the podcastand for, for all you do.
Anna Walker (38:26):
Oh, I appreciate that.
It's my absolute pleasure.
I appreciate you take good care.
Hey there.
Welcome back to MarketingTherapy episode 17.
This one is really special.
In this episode, I am sitting downwith Kasryn Kapp, who is an incredibly
talented clinician in the Philadelphiaarea, who has a really remarkable story
of leaving her agency life literallyfor her own safety, jumping into
(00:38):
private practice, and now existingas a thriving full fee clinician.
Becoming well known in herniche and building a practice
that truly fits her life.
If that's your goal, then I think you'regonna take a lot away from Kasryn's story.
And if nothing else, over the next littlewhile, I think you're gonna be very,
very inspired by the story of someonewho was faced with adversity and turned
(01:01):
it into something that is going to serveher and her family for years to come.
Alright, that's enough from me.
Let's dive into this interview.
Kasryn Kapp (01:12):
My name's Catherine.
I use she her pronouns and Ihelp exhausted adults break the
cycle of sleepless nights usinga research backed approach.
That's my niche area and I'm atherapist licensed in Pennsylvania,
New Jersey, and I'm able toserve clients in Vermont as well.
Anna Walker (01:30):
That's a pretty, uh, polished niche statement there.
You've worked hard to, to get there.
You do.
In addition to your insomnia work, youalso see individuals outside of that.
Right.
Tell me a little bit aboutthe other clients you see.
Kasryn Kapp (01:42):
Yeah.
Thank you for asking that.
So I also help women andnon-binary folks who are putting
themselves last and want to start.
Moving up talking about it,even, they're not even ready to
start prioritizing themselves.
But I just wanna have someone to talkto who's not gonna disempower them.
And sometimes that happens after.
(02:03):
My clients are sleeping well,sometimes that's the next step.
You know, I've been self-sacrificingso much sleep went by the wayside.
Now I'm sleeping well and it'sopening up a door to other areas
of my life that I can now explore.
And sometimes clients find medirectly for that work as well.
I.
Anna Walker (02:21):
Cool.
I wanna hear more aboutthe niche work that you do.
'cause it is really unique.
Anytime I get to learn more aboutCBTI from you, I enjoy that.
But, tell us just to, as we get to knowyou a little bit more, what season of
life and of practice are you in right now?
How long have you been at this?
Kasryn Kapp (02:35):
Yeah, so I, in preparing for this, I looked at it and I'm shocked
to see it's been three years this month.
July 1st.
And, we'll talk about this too, butit was really difficult at first.
I didn't know what my niche was.
I'd been a generalist working in communitymental health, so it almost feels like
(02:55):
it's been two years because the firstyear I was just figuring out, up from
down and how to be an entrepreneur, how tobe in private practice, uh, all of that.
So, yeah, it feels a little surreal.
And then.
Of life.
I am really coming into.
What does it look like to putmyself first to do the work
(03:18):
that I'm now doing with clients?
Like what do I love now?
You know, I'm been, I've been goingto the pool in the middle of the day.
I love that.
Um, going to, yeah, my partner'smedical appointment and being able to
support 'em and what, it just feels sodifferent from the kind of grind, hustle,
grind work that I was in for so long.
(03:40):
So I really.
Exciting and exploratory phase of life.
Anna Walker (03:48):
Well, that's an exciting one to be in.
I love that.
tell us a little bit aboutwhere this all started.
Kind of take us back to the beginning.
You were in community mental health.
What led you to decide to jump intothe whole private practice thing?
Kasryn Kapp (04:00):
Yeah, so I'd been doing that community mental health,
high acuity, federally qualifiedhealth center kind of work for seven
years, and I knew I was burnt out.
In my mind at that time, self-carewas taking like a weekend trip
(04:20):
or doing more meditation andit really, and pushing through.
I think it's so easy for pushingthrough to become a habit.
It's part of the culture there and Ithought I could keep doing that forever
and that was not the case for me.
I ended up burning out.
(04:41):
So much that I had to quit.
And there's also gunviolence thoughts at work.
It just wasn't a safe environment.
So I had to leave for my safety really.
That was the beginning.
It was a rough start.
I wouldn't recommend it.
I didn't
Anna Walker (04:56):
know this about you.
This is, yeah.
Really interesting.
So I think sometimes when people gointo private practice, it's because
they have these big, lofty goals forthemselves, which you very well may have
had, but you were also just making a.
Necessary decision for yourself.
So in some ways, did you feel alittle bit forced into this or
did you enter into it excited?
Kasryn Kapp (05:14):
It's the best thing that ever happened to me, but it
did at the time, feel very forced.
I was applying for other W2 jobs in asimilar environment that I was used to.
And I need reasonable accommodations,especially in COVID, that I'm
partially deaf and the masksmake it really difficult.
I could not get an interview wherethey would provide accommodations.
(05:39):
So it wasn't a possibility almost.
It felt like, I mean, I'm sureeventually I could have found
something, but I was being turnedaway experiencing discrimination.
And so, you know, I had a friendin private practice who had been
encouraging me to do it, and I wasafraid of entrepreneurship that.
Would mean that it would be hustlingforever, which is not true, but that was
(06:03):
my belief that it would be constantlyunsteady, which is also not true.
I'm so much more steadyand safe than I was then.
But yeah, I really did feel I.
Forced into it
Anna Walker (06:17):
so you got started and if you can bring yourself back to those
early days, what were those challenges?
You mentioned kinda that first yearwas just learning kind of up from
down and how to be an entrepreneur.
What were some of those initialchallenges where you, you know, that
kind of got us to where we are today?
Kasryn Kapp (06:32):
Yeah, so some of the challenges felt like, you know,
this is just a learning curve.
I need to figure it out.
Like getting a bookkeepingsystem set up and.
Telehealth and EHR andall that kind of stuff.
But the biggest challenge, which Ithink a lot of people listening will
resonate with listening to marketingtherapy, is marketing niching.
(06:57):
Shocking.
How do I find them?
Yeah.
And it continues to be, I think, fora lot of people, a real pain point.
And so that was my biggestchallenge and I think.
I kind of feel like, and you'vehelped me and I can't thank you
enough, and Anna's not paying me tosay this, but, you helped me so much.
(07:17):
I feel like I have a system nowthat works, so it's still something
I need to work on, but I feellike I've figured it out for now.
But that was a huge pain point.
I didn't have any clients for like.
Four or five months, it was challenging.
Anna Walker (07:32):
Yeah.
Yeah.
In those early days.
And you're absolutely right.
Some of this is just natural.
Like it's very abnormal to start yourpractice and all of a sudden just be
fully booked and thriving and, you know,everything's sunshine and rainbows.
Like that isn't reality.
There is a curve.
But those early days ofI remember when we met.
I remember when you sent me yourfirst couple of emails wondering about
working together and that sort of thing.
(07:53):
What were you doing in your marketingthat you felt like wasn't working?
What were you trying thatdidn't feel like it was landing?
Kasryn Kapp (08:00):
Yeah.
I was spinning my wheels followingshiny objects, trying to do everything.
I had an Instagram.
I was networking, but my nichestatement wasn't clear at all.
I was.
On every directory Icould get my hands on.
(08:20):
And I was shocked that none of itwas working because in my mind,
and this is something I'm learningtoo, working hard means results.
Now that's shifted to takingthe right action, which is often
less work leads to results.
So yeah, I was kind of, just frantic.
(08:41):
Yeah.
And at the time too, I can'temphasize enough the importance
of having an emergency savings,which saved me through this time
where I had to quit and then I was.
Figuring out entrepreneurship.
But yeah, that's just kind ofwhat I was doing at the time.
Anna Walker (08:56):
Yeah.
And you also have left insurance, whichwe'll get to a little bit, but I know some
of the earlier kind of beliefs and doubtsyou talked about, things like it's always,
going to require hustling and that it'salways good to be unstable, but there are
also some money messages and things likethat you've really had to wrestle with.
Do you feel like there are otherbeliefs that you were holding
then that maybe have shifted now?
Kasryn Kapp (09:17):
Yeah, absolutely.
Yeah.
There's a lot of moneymindset work in this.
I think our profession isreally devalued, the pay being.
So little for the amount of work.
It's not just, and everyone listeningknows it's not just a session too.
It's everything that goes into it.
And so I had this belief that,you know, if you charge too
(09:39):
much, you're a bad person.
If you have money, you're bad.
There's all kinds of clichesabout wealth being bad.
And I really am againstthe wealth inequality.
Like I really want us to all.
Share resources more equitably.
But what I realized and a belief I'vekind of come to is that me making myself
(10:02):
small doesn't make other people wealthy.
It just makes me small and supportsthe system that wants me as a
disabled, queer woman to be small.
Anna Walker (10:13):
Gotcha.
Yeah, just kind of figuringout where you fit in all that.
Alright, I wanna knowmore about your niche.
So tell me how you came intoInsomnia work, why you love it.
It's a unique one.
I think the standard niche these days,is quite a bit different from this.
So tell me about how you came intothis niche, what you love about it.
Kasryn Kapp (10:32):
First of all, the statement I give at the beginning, my elevator
pitch niche statement is so important tohave that people understand what I do,
and you helped me with that confidentcopy helped me with that so much.
But as for the niche itself incollege, I wasn't sleeping well.
I had insomnia, and I was luckyenough to have a therapist who was
(10:56):
trained in the modality that I useCBTI and I was really skeptical.
At first I thought, yeah.
I've already done everything.
I did the sleep hygienething, this isn't gonna work.
Lo and behold it did.
It really worked very well.
And I have a family history of insomnia.
You know, I have a lot of things that werestories that this wouldn't work for me,
(11:19):
but it did and it's continues to work.
And despite, even despite all thosestressors and the burnout, I was sleeping.
So that was like such a godsend.
So that's how I got into it.
And then I had a pretty confusing niche.
Conglomerate before I started ConfidentCopy and Insomnia was in there and
(11:40):
I got a lot of traction with it.
People were really interested init and so I got a few clients.
Those were my first few clients and Iremembered how much I loved to do it.
I've been integrating it at In inCommunity Mental health, but you
really can't specialize there.
So I would do it and then not have anyclients for a while and then do it again.
But I realized how much Ilove to do it, so I decided to
(12:02):
zoom in on that and it's been.
Fantastic.
Anna Walker (12:06):
Yeah, I remember that.
Work with you early on, in Confident copywhere you were deciding 'cause you had
come in seeing this wider range of clientsand you decided, you know, I am gonna
own this, while still honoring that, non.
Insomnia client that we were talkingabout earlier, those women and
non-binary folks who, have been makingthemselves small and that sort of thing.
But seeing you embody that I think hasserved you incredibly well these days.
(12:28):
And like you said, you gettraction with a niche like that.
Kasryn Kapp (12:32):
Yeah.
And it gives me freedom toreally train further in it.
You'd think with sleep, we knoweverything there is to know.
We've been doing it for all of humanityand time, but we're learning more.
All the time.
There's new treatments coming out.
One just came out last year.
There's another one burgeoning comingout, and so it affords me the time to
(12:55):
learn more about, it's so fascinating.
I could do only trainingson it and a little bit of
clinical work and I'd be happy.
Uh, it's, it's how wonderful
Anna Walker (13:02):
to love your work that much.
Kasryn Kapp (13:04):
Yeah.
Very refreshing.
From before where there's likea boss and you have to meet the
productivity hours and it's.
Fueled by fear.
Anna Walker (13:13):
Absolutely.
Tell me a little bit, I don'tknow if I know this, how did you
first learn about Confident Copy?
Kasryn Kapp (13:21):
So I think the very first point of contact was a Facebook ad.
I.
I don't remember what it said, butyou looked really nice in the picture.
Well, thank you.
And I was, you know, grabbingonto anything that would
help and I I followed that.
I think it was, I don't really remember.
I think it was one ofthose free trainings.
(13:43):
And I told my business bestie about it.
And she took the leap before I did.
She was like, I think this is good.
And then she talked me into it.
If you can have a business buddythat's like on the same journey as
you, that's so powerful because I wasreally afraid that I would get scammed.
I was investing my own personalsavings into the business.
(14:05):
So there was a lot of feararound investing in things, and I
didn't think about it like that.
I was thinking about it as anexpense, but instead of an investment.
We can talk more about that later, butyeah, I think it was a Facebook ad.
Anna Walker (14:18):
Yeah.
Interesting.
I think a lot of clinicians, especiallythose who were in kind of that stage
that you were in, can identify withthe idea of just grabbing for anything.
Like I will, I will watch anywebinar that you tell me to watch.
I will download every freebie, Iwill join every Facebook group.
I will read every blog post, and thatcan be really overwhelming and it
can, I think, be difficult to discern.
(14:39):
What is actually the rightquote unquote advice.
What stood out to you as faras confident copy goes that
felt like it was the right one.
Not that it's the only one, and itcertainly isn't the only resource you've
used, but what stood out to you thatmade you think like, okay, among all
the things I'm grabbing, maybe thisis a good one to like take hold of
Kasryn Kapp (14:58):
two things.
Most importantly wasword of mouth referral.
Like it really worked for peoplewho did it and they were living
the life that I wanted to live.
That's, I mean, more than anythinganyone could say is someone did that
program and saw success with it.
Sure.
And I said, I want that too.
(15:18):
The other thing was accessibility.
You have really greataccessibility features.
You have captions on the calls,and that's a boundary for me.
Like, I'm not gonna put myself in asituation anymore where I don't have that.
So I really, I'm grateful toyou because it's a, a lot of
other programs don't do that.
Anna Walker (15:34):
Such an easy thing to do.
Um, that's, that's shocking tome, but I'm so glad to be able
to create a community like that.
During Confident Copy, obviously wedid a lot of work around your niche
and we've touched on that a little bit.
What tools support, you know, whatparts of the program really stood
out to you or do you feel like werethe most valuable on your journey?
Kasryn Kapp (15:51):
Yeah, I really liked the coaching calls.
I think.
It gave me a lot of insight.
There were people who were slightlyahead of me and that was helpful.
People on the call saying, Hey, I putmy website, this page up, and I got a
client that kind of, okay, this is real.
(16:14):
I can do this.
The momentum.
So, so that community aspect I think.
And then also there wasa lot of structure and.
Clarity and you weren't telling me whatto say, but you're telling me what are
clients looking for in this section?
That's so helpful.
'cause it never occurred to me.
(16:36):
And I think that that's where alot of people fall prey to trying
to speak to like colleagues ortrying to do what sounds smart.
Be like, Hey, clients wanna knowthat you're nice and you're human
and here's how can you speak to that?
Anna Walker (16:48):
Yeah.
Uh, what surprised you about kind of yourown growth through that process, figuring
out your niche, writing a website,that, that really aligned with it.
Is there anything that you look backand you were like especially proud
of or surprised by as far as yourown change that you experienced?
Kasryn Kapp (17:04):
I think before I felt like, so I bike a lot.
I love cycling and I feltlike the chain was off.
Like I was spinning thewheels and going nowhere.
Hmm.
And I feel like confident copyput the chain on the bike so
that I'm not spinning my wheels.
Like the effort I was puttingin was really working.
(17:26):
So I think what surprised me is,you know, a lot of those doubts and
stories about entrepreneurship isconstantly hustling or even not taking
insurance is constantly hustling.
You know, I think a lotof those narratives.
It surprised me when they were challengedand I can put in work and go further.
Anna Walker (17:45):
Less
Kasryn Kapp (17:45):
work.
Anna Walker (17:46):
I think that's, yeah.
What a wonderful metaphor.
I love that.
Um, Catherine, you're one of thosepeople that I think you and I
love meeting clinicians like you.
Who are you?
You could have taken confident copy,you could have not taken confident copy.
I think you still wouldhave been successful.
If you hadn't, where do youthink you would be right now?
Kasryn Kapp (18:04):
That's my kind of view.
I think I may have eventually figuredit out, but trying to do it piecemeal
with the free stuff it would'vetaken me so long to figure it out.
I think I would be on the platformsand desperately wanting to get off.
I think I really am hesitant.
I wanna say that if being on aplatform is what works for you
(18:26):
and your family and your business,there's no shame or judgment at all.
I really.
Don't trust them.
I don't trust their mission.
I don't trust what they're doing.
And I think I would feel likeI had to be on them and I'd
wanna get off but not know how.
Mm.
So I think that's where I'dbe without confident Copy.
I also think even if I had figured itout, and I think we're gonna talk about
(18:49):
income too, but confident Copy reallywas an investment in the sense that
the payoff is continuing and building.
Along with the work that Iput into it and built on it.
So I think I'd probably have a hard timemeeting the income goals that I have
now, or the ones that I met last year.
Anna Walker (19:08):
Yeah.
Yeah.
Cool.
So Post Confident copy, you launchedyour website, you've left insurance.
Tell me a little bit about, that wasabout three years ago, was in that
first year that you took Confident copy.
How are things going today?
What have you, you know, accomplished?
Whether that is a tangible, you know,kind of concrete thing or we can get
into the intangible the confidence,the sustainability, the safety you
(19:31):
mentioned that you're feeling today.
Kasryn Kapp (19:34):
Yeah.
Yeah, I think in the intangible, I'vekind of set up the situation where
I don't really have to work morethan 35 hours a week, which feels
kind of weird and illegal and like,so I'm gonna get in trouble with
someone or something, I don't know.
So
Anna Walker (19:53):
after years of being in community mental health, that might
just be a deeply ingrained thing.
Kasryn Kapp (19:57):
It's pretty ingrained.
Right.
And I started working ata really young age too.
And so I think that.
Employee kind of work a certain numberof hours is really deeply ingrained.
So, you know, exploringthat and getting used to it.
And then income too.
Like last year I made more moneythan I ever made at a W2 job seeing.
(20:18):
Way fewer clients becauseof confident copy.
You know, I also did some other worktoo, of course, networking and building a
community around the money mindset piece.
Um, but in 2024, Mike Grossrevenue, so pre-tax, pre expenses
was 89,000, just over 89,000,seeing about 13 clients a week.
(20:42):
And then this year I'm ontrack to make the same.
So far this year I've made a little bitmore than last year, so far last year,
so the first six months of the year.
Um, but seeing fewer clientsand not being on insurance.
So yeah.
Lots of wins and thank you for that.
Yeah.
Anna Walker (21:03):
Um, what was the process like of getting off of insurance and where,
where in your journey did that happen?
Kasryn Kapp (21:08):
Yeah, that's really recent.
Um, I've been slowly, I.
Moving away from it for, I mean,pretty much since I started.
But I officially ended all contracts,um, at the end of May, and then I of
two clients at the beginning of June.
So this
Anna Walker (21:28):
last month, very recent.
Wow, I didn't realize that.
Okay.
Kasryn Kapp (21:31):
Yeah.
Anna Walker (21:31):
Congratulations.
Kasryn Kapp (21:32):
Yeah, but I've been slowly tapering.
So the, it was a platformthat I was on, and you can.
Limit your intakes.
So I hadn't been accepting newclients for a very long time,
tapering off and building theprivate pay side for a long time.
But officially all in private pay.
It's very recent.
Anna Walker (21:53):
Wow.
Congratulations.
I didn't realize I was gettingto sit down with you at such an
exciting point in your practice.
So if you imagine yourself today, goingto the pool in the afternoons, you know,
being able to go to your partner's medicalappointments compared to back in the day
grinding, hustling chain off the bike.
What feels different?
How are you different as abusiness owner, as just a human?
(22:15):
What do you feel like haschanged for you since then?
Kasryn Kapp (22:18):
I think I feel so much more autonomy.
Before even with the platform,there was sort of a boss there.
Even if it's technically your 10 99.
If they said you haveto do this new workflow.
Then you kind of have to do it.
(22:39):
But now, and increasingly Ifeel like, oh, actually I don't
think that's best client care.
I don't think that's ethical, forexample integrating AI in ways
that I think, I'm not against it,but I think it's integrated really
quickly and not necessarily withclient care at the forefront.
And so.
You know, having the autonomy tomake decisions, what's gonna be the
(23:04):
best for my practice for myself?
I think that's kind ofthe overarching theme.
And then also just shifting mymindset now that I've set this up to
I can relax into it kind of thing.
Anna Walker (23:17):
Mm-hmm.
What a great feeling.
One thing that's always important to me,and that's curious to me as well is to.
Be honest about the fact that growinga practice and marketing, here we are
in like the marketing therapy podcast.
It doesn't stop.
So you can go through Confident Copyand graduate and create a website,
and the marketing doesn't end there.
(23:38):
It hopefully takes on a new, anew flavor and feels differently
and gets different results.
But at the end of the day, you like,that's something that continues
for the life of your practice.
Um, and one of the things I love is thatit can look a lot of different ways.
You can, may be dancing on Instagramand making reels and getting clients and
you can be networking and you can be.
Sitting behind your computer and blogging.
(23:59):
Right.
There's lots of different ways to do it.
What for you has been important andwhat types of regular marketing are
you involved in on a consistent basis?
Kasryn Kapp (24:10):
Yeah, so just to speak to what you said, that's so true.
You do have to continue.
But something I've found is it feelsmore like building a body of work than.
Just constantly doing things totry to hope something sticks.
So, like I was doingbefore, confident Coffee.
(24:31):
Yeah.
So I do still work now and I still engagein it, but one example is I have a free
workshop for therapist if you're curiousto learn more about sleep therapy.
It's on my website slash prevent.
Um, oh, cool.
We'll put that in the show notes.
You can check that out.
Um, but that kinda lives on my websiteand it is a free resource for therapists.
(24:54):
I think reflecting on my experienceas a client, I was really grateful
that I had a therapist who knew aboutthis, and so I wanna share that.
And also it helps.
Therapists become aware thatthere are effective tools, not
just sleep hygiene, which we'vealready tried and it didn't work.
Um, that there are answers.
So it serves two purposes.
(25:15):
One, it feels really good.
I can help colleagues, I can help clientslike me who needed someone who knew that.
And also it helps establish credibility.
Like I know what I'm talking about.
I'm a real person 'cause youcan see me talking on the video.
And so that's something I did, but itkind of hangs out there and it's not
like I have to constantly do it allthe time and it works for me, I guess.
(25:37):
Mm-hmm, yeah, so I do thingslike that and that I would put
in the networking category.
I host queer networking groups locally,online, and that's really rewarding
being able to bring people together.
I just love talking with people.
I like networking.
That's, I think, kind of uniqueabout me from what I get.
Yes, most of
Anna Walker (25:57):
the clinicians I serve don't necessarily feel that way about it.
Kasryn Kapp (26:00):
Yeah.
Most people don't.
There are ways to do it that arepowerful and, and don't have to look like
what I'm doing, so keep that in mind.
I like it.
So that's unique.
Yeah.
So I love just getting together.
Like last week I got together at a coffeeshop with some wonderful colleagues
who have really interesting specialtiesand we just talked about our work.
(26:24):
It was really cool.
Beautiful day, kind of hot, but yeah,in the middle of a Wednesday, you know?
And, um, so that I also do SEO work.
I'm told my SEO is pretty goodby the Google people I talk to.
I of course, confident copybuilds that in, so there's a
fantastic foundation there.
(26:46):
And then I do blogging.
Honestly, it's really sporadic.
I don't like blogging, so ifyou like blogging, good for you.
I like networking, butI yeah, try to do that.
Somewhat consistently.
Blogging and then directories, nichespecific directories have been fantastic.
So those are my three.
Yeah.
As you tell us to pick two tothree, that's really helpful.
(27:08):
'cause I would do everythingand if I don't limit it and I
don't need to do everything, butnetworking, SEO and directories.
Anna Walker (27:15):
I love that.
Um, I remember you talking about havingnetworked with some, some new colleagues
fairly recently after your time inConfident Copy, and they said that they
were excited to refer to you and thatthat was, that was a new experience.
I.
Kasryn Kapp (27:29):
Oh yeah.
But, but my niche, before I couldn'teven give you a niche statement.
It was like, I like helping people andI also like this and I also like that.
And people, I think they wantedto help me and they were just
really confused about what I did.
And so now people tend to getmore, oh, I had someone who really.
(27:51):
Needs this kind of workand it works better.
And also, I understand that feelingbecause sometimes I have that with people.
Like, I love connecting with thiswonderful therapist, but I don't
understand who's a good fit for her.
Like, I wanna send her people, but Ican't connect it with somebody in my mind.
So I think they appreciate ittoo, but I've had people say.
(28:12):
Wow.
I'm so excited to refer toyou, which was shocking to me.
'cause the reaction before was, Idon't know if I have anybody like that.
Anna Walker (28:19):
Yeah.
Right, right.
I think that's a something that's commonlyforgotten when clinicians are networking,
that it's critical that you are memorable.
You have to be easy to refer toif you want networking to work.
And that starts with having aclear understanding of what it,
what the heck you actually do.
Right.
Um, that's where that kind of all starts.
Kasryn Kapp (28:37):
Yeah.
Yeah, it's helpful I think onboth sides too, like if, if I am
speaking to that, it helps them.
Understand, it just takes kindof the mental work off of their
plate of trying to think about it.
And also now that I have more timeto even further my specialization, do
more training, it gives an opportunityto be a resource for people too,
(29:01):
which feels really good for me.
Like if people are like, oh, I have aclient with hot flashes, for example.
It gives me a lot of timeto take a really deep dive.
Everything there's to know about hotflashes, journal articles about it.
Books and then consult and then I knowmore about hot flashes and they get the
benefit of that work and it just works.
(29:22):
Yeah.
Anna Walker (29:23):
I love that.
It's really cool, Catherine, to hearyour sort of evolution as a business
owner being essentially forced intoit for your own wellbeing and now.
By all accounts thriving.
Certainly there's room and we'lltalk about your future goals, but
really cool to hear that evolution.
One thing that I wanna call outthat is really a powerful shift is
(29:43):
this idea of viewing investmentslike confident copy, other resources
you've used to grow your practiceas investments and not as expensive.
Can you tell me more about that?
Kasryn Kapp (29:54):
Yeah.
Anna Walker (29:55):
So.
Kasryn Kapp (29:56):
This almost sounds like business influencer thing, but going
from an employee mindset, I don't knowwhat else to call it, of like this is
an expense I have to justify to my boss.
Now this is some a cost thatis gonna bring down whatever
the revenue or whatever.
This is something that's gonna pay foritself, but also make my life easier.
(30:19):
It's going to be an investmentin the true cents of the word.
That's kind of a, a growth edge that Ihave now and that I've been working on.
And, some wonderful colleagues havehelped me with that because I was so
very much thinking about confidentcopy as this is something that's
gonna cost my business versus.
This is something that'sgonna make my business bloom.
(30:42):
And so, yeah, it's definitelya shift in mindset.
Anna Walker (30:47):
Yeah.
Do you continue to look at investmentsand expenses these days in that way
too, when you're sort of considering,you know, a training, I think tends to
be a little bit more of a, traditionalway of thinking about an investment.
But anytime effectively you'respending money on your business, are
you looking at it through that lens?
Kasryn Kapp (31:04):
Yeah, that's something I'm actively working on 'cause it's
not something that just changed.
So when I'm looking at some extra fundsthat I have, how do I wanna use that?
I am, I have a note on my,like business bookkeeping.
I have a whole system for that.
And part of it is a reminder aboutis this, what's the ROI on this?
(31:26):
Is it an investment?
And sometimes there are expenses like.
Things that aren't gonna necessarilyinfluence, but maybe I want them.
And then that's great.
You know, it does, not everything isan investment, but looking for that
because I think it, it was an importantshift that got me to where I am and
it's something that my, my business.
Buddies helped me with too.
Anna Walker (31:47):
Yeah.
Cool.
Tell me what you're excited about next.
I mean, you just officially, de paneled.
So what are you excited about personally,professionally, whatever it may be as you
look ahead into the rest of the year andinto the coming years as a practice owner.
Kasryn Kapp (32:03):
Yeah.
So into the coming year I havea very ambitious side that's.
Wonderful and sometimes servesme, and sometimes it's just
high functioning anxiety.
So my goal for this year, as ofnow, is to make the same as I
made last year without insurance.
(32:24):
It's working so far.
I am feeling really hopeful about it.
I think I tend to get really ambitious.
I do have a big goal that I want,but I'm gonna move that out a little
bit as a way to challenge that.
Achiever, like teacher's pet,good goal conditioning kind of way
that I naturally follow through.
(32:47):
Yeah, so my goal is to make thesame, so a little bit over $89,000.
Um, and I won't need to seeas many clients to do that
and to just enjoy life more.
And then, my big goal is to payoff all my student loan debt.
Buy a house in the area whereI live, which is an urban area,
so it's expensive and give mypartner the option to not work.
(33:11):
So to do that, I needto make $200,000 a year.
Okay.
Can't see my face on thepodcast, but that is an audition.
She's saying
Anna Walker (33:19):
it out loud.
Kasryn Kapp (33:22):
Yeah, it's, I'm saying it out loud.
It's real.
And I'm not gonna push.
Myself too much to get there.
But I think what I'm learning is thatthere's so much possibility and saying
it out loud with generosity and spaceto get there, not pushing to get there.
Anna Walker (33:39):
That's powerful.
That's powerful to set a goal that hasgenerosity and space, not pressure.
That's huge.
And I think you're gonna meet it.
And then some, I mean like yousaid, there's so much possibility.
Many people are listening who Ithink can identify with your journey.
Maybe they're in that spinning chainoff phase or maybe they're in the phase
of having de paneled and are lookingat what to do and what investments
(34:02):
to make, what's worth their time.
What would you want to tell those people?
Kasryn Kapp (34:10):
Well, I, just to rehash a little bit the thinking about ROI, that's
something that a good advice I got was tolook at that build a community, even if
you don't like networking, not thinkingabout it like that, but just colleagues.
Who have a similar wayof thinking about things.
(34:31):
I don't think I would be rightwithout my colleague who talked me
into confident copy, like she helpedme so much to, to make these moves.
So build a community.
I mean, I think Confident Copyis a fantastic investment.
So if you're thinking about it, go for it.
But also look for word of mouth referrals.
(34:52):
If you're looking at somethingyou're not sure think about ROI and
have an emergency savings first.
Yeah, you
Anna Walker (34:59):
mentioned that earlier.
Kasryn Kapp (35:00):
It's a little off topic, but it's, it was so
important in my journey that I hadthat because it opened up space.
To explore and to take this path.
Anna Walker (35:11):
Yeah.
I actually wanna ask one more questionand that's, and I, I think this
resonates deeply with me because inmy own therapy work, I've realized
my number one value is security.
Mm.
Um, and so anytime someone mentionsthings like that, my ears perk up.
But you mentioned that you actuallyfeel more safe and secure now
than you did in a W2 position.
Can you tell me more about that?
(35:32):
Because I think ultimatelya lot of us are seeking.
That and early on in private practice,it can feel like you can't find
safety or security anywhere you look.
So what's that been like for you?
Kasryn Kapp (35:44):
Yeah, well it's fantastic.
And I think there's acouple elements at play.
One is.
The autonomy piece I mentioned earlier,I'm not being pressured to do something
that would put my license at risk, whichhappens in community mental health.
(36:04):
You're asked to do things thatare not ethical sometimes.
And so that makes me feel more secure.
I have my own malpractice insurance.
They work for me versusworking for my company who.
May throw me under the bus.
They could, I don't know ifthey would, but they could.
I can make sure that my accommodationneeds are met or I don't participate.
(36:26):
I'm not gonna bepressured to do something.
When I don't have what I need to do well.
So that makes me feel more secure.
And then on the money side I knowwhat's going on behind the scenes so
often they would say, oh, we can'tafford to pay you more because of
budget, but we never saw the budget.
I don't, and I don't know.
(36:48):
So that black box behindthe scenes, so I know.
What's coming in, I know what's goingon, and I use the profit first cash
management system, which I recommend.
There's a book profitfirst for therapists.
And so that makes mefeel really secure too.
Like I pay myself a regular salary,so when I make more, I set that aside.
(37:10):
I pay myself a regular salary.
It feels very secure, and I knowwhat's going on behind the curtains.
Absolutely.
That's, I think most of it.
Anna Walker (37:19):
Yeah.
Yeah.
Cool.
Thank you for that.
Alright, Catherine, I don't think Ihave any more questions for you today.
Um, this has been such a wonderful I,I, I just love getting to learn more
about you and to hear about your journeyand that evolution as a business owner
and to know where you're at today.
If you could go back and say onething to that earlier version
of yourself, what would you say?
Kasryn Kapp (37:41):
You don't have to suffer like this.
You don't have to make yourselfsmall and making it so you
thrive doesn't hurt other people.
You can be safe and that helps otherpeople, helps the people around you.
And so.
I think that's what I would say.
I'd have a lot more specificadvice, but I think I touched
(38:01):
on that all throughout this.
Anna Walker (38:03):
Yeah.
Yeah.
That's wonderful.
Catherine, thank you somuch for being here today.
Kasryn Kapp (38:07):
Yeah.
Thank you for having me.
And thank you for all youdo to help therapists.
Truly like I do, free promo for youall the time, and it's because what you
do is really, truly helpful and you,you get what we need to do to thrive.
So thank you for the podcastand for, for all you do.
Anna Walker (38:26):
Oh, I appreciate that.
It's my absolute pleasure.
I appreciate you take good care.
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