June 18, 2025 • 58 mins
What if giving birth was considered your greatest achievement rather than your greatest fear? This question sits at the heart of my conversation with Jutta Wohlrab, a German midwife whose 40-year journey across three continents offers us a rare glimpse into how birth can be both gentler and more empowering.
Jutta's path to midwifery began unexpectedly in the 1970s when a book about natural childbirth ignited her passion. She takes us on a fascinating tour of global birth practices, revealing how Germany's approach differs dramatically from other countries. Did you know that German law mandates a midwife at every birth, while doctors cannot legally deliver babies without a midwife present? This centuries-old protection speaks volumes about prioritizing women's needs during birth.
We dive deep into the science of oxytocin—the crucial difference between your body's natural "love hormone" and the synthetic version commonly used in hospitals. Jutta explains why natural oxytocin, released in gentle pulses during undisturbed birth, creates that magical post-birth euphoria that makes you feel like you could "fly." By contrast, synthetic oxytocin delivered through an IV "hits you like a rocket" without the emotional benefits that help with bonding and processing your birth experience.
Perhaps most powerful is Jutta's insight into how birth partners can transform your experience. Whether it's your spouse, friend, or doula, a well-prepared support person becomes what she calls your "Perfect Pregnancy Partner"—someone who breathes with you, encourages you, and helps you tap into your innate strength.
As we discuss the troubling rise in postpartum mental health struggles and birth trauma, Jutta offers wisdom gained from thousands of births: finding knowledgeable experts, building supportive communities, and embracing birth as a profound life event rather than a medical procedure.
Want to reclaim the joy and power in childbirth? Connect with Jutta through her book "Happy Birthing Days" or visit her website. And please share this episode with anyone preparing for birth or supporting birthing people—because every mother deserves to feel that birth was her greatest achievement.
Happy Birthing Days Online Course
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:15):
Welcome to the Maternal Wealth Podcast, a space
for all things related tomaternal health, pregnancy and
beyond.
I'm your host, stephanieTheriault.
I'm a labor and delivery nurseand a mother to three beautiful
boys.
Each week, we dive intoinspiring stories and expert
insights to remind us of thepower that you hold in
childbirth and motherhood.
We're here to explore the joys,the challenges and the
(00:38):
complexities of maternal health.
Every mother's journey isunique and every story deserves
to be told.
Please note that this podcastis for entertainment purposes
only.
It is not intended to replaceprofessional medical advice,
diagnosis or treatment.
Always consult with yourhealthcare provider for medical
guidance that is tailored toyour specific needs.
(00:59):
Are you ready?
Let's get into it.
(01:19):
In this week's episode, Iconnect with the inspiring
German midwife, jutta Worlam,who brings over 40 years of
midwifery experience into herpractice across Germany, new
Zealand and Australia.
Together, we explore theprofound intimacy of the
midwifery model of care, thebeautiful variations and
practice found across the globe,the empowering journey of
(01:41):
childbirth and the essentialquest for a supportive community
with true experts in the fieldof birth.
Jutta sheds light on thefascinating insights from her
recent book Happy Birthing Daysa midwife's secret to a joyful,
safe and happy birth.
We discuss the vitaldistinctions between organic
(02:03):
oxytocin and synthetic pitocin,the transformative role of
prepared birth partners and therich legacy of midwifery in
Germany.
I hope that you find ourconversation as uplifting as I
did.
Welcome, jutta, to the MaternalWell Podcast.
I'm so glad you're here.
Speaker 2 (02:21):
What can I say?
Thank you, thank you.
I'm really excited to be hereand I'm grateful you invited me
as a guest, so thanks very much.
Speaker 1 (02:30):
Of course I'm excited , as a nurse in the United
States in a very medical,complex practice, to learn about
more of a midwifery care modelin Germany, and I know you've
worked in other countries too,so I'm excited to get into this
conversation.
Speaker 2 (02:45):
Well, what shall we start?
First things first.
So many things I could talkabout and, if you want, I will
introduce a little bit about themodel in a moment.
Speaker 1 (02:55):
Sure, what made you decide to become a midwife and
what does the midwifery caremodel look like for you in your
practice?
Speaker 2 (03:02):
Oh, what a wonderful question.
So you know, when I was young,I didn't want to be a midwife.
I wanted to be an actress, asinger, a journalist, an artist.
And so when I was a teenager, Iapplied for art school.
I wanted to do something withmy hands.
But everywhere I went in the70s, people said, oh no, we
already got a boy.
(03:22):
So I was very frustrated.
I didn't understand why wouldthey always have a boy instead
of me when I was so motivated?
Anyway, years went by, I wasstill in school and one night I
thought, well, I better take awalk around and have a little
walk to think what else it isthat I could become.
(03:43):
So, you know, I looked at alldifferent areas.
I was a very social person.
I always was the person thatpeople, my you know, my friends,
teenage friends would come toand tell their problems, and I
would always try to find thebest solution.
So I was really like that, ago-to person for finding a
solution.
So when I took this walk, Ithought shall I become a social
(04:03):
worker?
Nah, shall I become a nurse?
Nah, not really.
But somehow the word midwife,giving birth, pregnancy, the
beginning of everything, poppedinto my head.
Now, I didn't know a pregnantwoman, I didn't know a midwife.
But the next day I got someinformation.
And a couple of days later Ibought a book which was called
(04:24):
Birth Without Violence, writtenby a fantastic obstetrician
named Frédéric Le Boyer, who infact brought back natural
childbirth to Europe in the 70s.
And then I was convinced that'sit.
I was a humanist, I was afeminist at a young age and I
felt like, wow, that is soamazing, that's what I want to
be.
And after that I never changedmy mind again.
Speaker 1 (04:47):
Talk to us about the path into midwifery education,
clinical practice.
How does one become a midwifein Germany?
Speaker 2 (04:54):
Okay, in the 80s when I trained, you actually trained
in a state hospital and you hadto do a medical diploma in
front of the state.
So it's like a true medicaldiploma.
We're not lay midwives and youcannot train with a midwife.
You do an internship with ahome birth midwife if you want,
but you train in a hospital.
(05:14):
In the 80s it was the firsttime ever that we trained for
three years In the meantime.
Now midwives in Germany have tostudy, so they have to train in
a hospital and have to study.
Now you are not allowed to callyourself midwife if you haven't
had done your state diploma.
So no one in Germany can callthemselves midwife.
It is a true profession and youhave to show your true diploma
(05:39):
everywhere where you register inthe health office and so on and
so on.
Register in the health officeand so on and so on.
Speaker 1 (05:47):
And then now, what does birth look like in Germany?
Are you finding womenpredominantly give birth in a
hospital or a birth center, orat home.
Speaker 2 (05:55):
Okay, so, first of all, in Germany, all women have
free choice of where they wantto give birth.
They can freely choose I want ahome birth.
They can say, no, I would loveto go to a birth center.
They can say I would love totake a midwife with visiting
rights.
They can say I go to a tinysmall hospital or to a big
tertiary facility with aneonatal unit.
(06:16):
First of all, you have freechoice.
But when you look at thestatistics, of course Germany is
going like all other countries.
We are not the number one homebirth country in Europe.
That, in fact, is Holland, andthe number of home births has
kind of lingered around in avery low range 9% is the number.
But there's a big problem, Ithink you know women would love
(06:37):
to do more home birth, morebirth centers, but our liability
insurance became very, veryhigh and for that reason I think
more women will be going to thehospital.
Now I want to say somethingabout hospitals, stephanie,
because hospitals in Germany arequite different to ones in the
States.
First of all, giving birth inGermany is covered by insurance.
(07:00):
Everyone is insured, so no onehas to pay anything out of
pocket.
It doesn't matter whether youhave a home birth or water birth
, whether you have a C-sectionif needed doesn't matter.
The only time you have to pay abit on top is when you take a
midwife for visiting rights, ahome birth or birth center.
You pay a little bit of moneyfor the fact that the midwife is
(07:21):
going to be five weeks on call.
Now, when it comes to the birthsituation, how Germany is
really interacting, I have tosay okay, germany released
guidelines to lower theC-section rate.
Now here in Berlin, where I ambig city, there's hospitals that
have a C-section rate of 11 to15%.
(07:42):
That is a really good ratio of11 to 15%, and that is a really
good ratio.
We also have hospitals that have35, 40, 42% of a C-section rate
.
So it really varies very much,but we have all kinds of
hospitals and since you canchoose freely, you can also have
a look when do I want to givebirth and where do they offer
(08:03):
choices that I want and not thesystem wants?
However, just to be crystalclear, you know, globally we
look at 30 to 80, in somecountries even 90% of a
C-section rate.
So none of that is great, andeven Germany has to definitely
lower the C-section and theintervention rate.
There's absolutely no doubt.
Speaker 1 (08:24):
When you first got out of school and you started
your midwifery practice, wheredid you start?
Did you start in a hospital orin a birth center?
And then I would love to hearabout your progression into your
midwifery, because I knowyou've also worked in other
countries yeah, lovely question.
Speaker 2 (08:40):
So, of course, when I started off, I started off in a
state hospital in Stuttgart, inthe very south, where they make
Porsche, just for all yourinformation.
So this is the area where Igrew up and I was very lucky
because this stage hospital wasrun by a midwife that had sent
two of her midwives to Paris.
(09:00):
Frédéric Le Boyer had a clinicwhere women could give birth in
any way they wanted, singing indark lights, like breathing
babies out into the world, andso once these two midwives came
back, the state hospitalintroduced a natural how can I
say natural labor room with adouble bed, schiller-kitzinger
pillows, where we were allleaning over In candlelight in a
(09:24):
state hospital.
We were actually breathingbabies out into the world.
And then we had bathtubs onwheels not to clean the baby,
but the father would give thebaby a relaxation bath just
after the birth.
And let me point out, we evenhad two rooms with full rooming
in, and this since the 70s, thatwas revolutionary.
We're full rooming in, and thissince the 70s, that was
revolutionary.
(09:44):
So the way I was trained in howto give birth was a very
natural approach and, I have tosay, a very human approach.
Women's center, family center.
Partners were already there,quite, something spectacular in
the late 70s and early 80s.
(10:06):
And then from there, once I hadmy state exam, I was having a
look, where do I want to go?
I thought I need a job firstand I wanted to get some
experience.
And for some reason it wasreally difficult.
All the places where I wantedto go, they said no, no, we want
a midwife with experience.
I said to them how on earth canI become an experienced midwife
if no one employs me?
So I ended up in a tinypilgrimage village.
(10:26):
But I came to the place where Iwas 20,000 people and after six
months I became the team leaderof the birth unit.
So I said to the people thereright, let's just play some
music, bring some tapes along,sit in the bathtub, relax and
breathe your babies out.
And so I can tell you, it wasso small.
(10:49):
I was the team leader.
People said what shall we do?
I said, well, we do what thewoman wants to do and we'll give
her the best experience.
And then from there, I'm honest,my journey took me to many
places.
Later on I went traveling andthen, when I came back, I
started working for a home birthpractice.
The first place for water birthin all Berlin, before any
(11:12):
hospital.
Yeah, it was sensational.
But I'm honest, the woman thatemployed me, the midwife, was
not very nice.
She really used us, ourworkforce.
She paid very little money, thebirthing was great, but the
workload was crazy.
So after some months I quitbecause I felt like I can't work
from six in the morning untiltwo o'clock at night, seven days
(11:33):
a week.
That's not on.
But what was great is I learnedhow water birth worked.
I was running classes already,lots of postnatal care, and it
was exciting.
So then after that I thoughtwell, where can you go now?
So I decided to offer myservice to a teaching hospital.
(11:53):
A midwifery school was attached, the delight of all the
students there.
I was working in a labor wardand you know it was great
because when we had little to doI would just say right, girls,
I'm going to bust at the door, Iput a pillow underneath my
little T-shirt and I'm going toact it out.
And whatever I act out, I wantyou to practice.
(12:15):
So we had a great time and Iintroduced into this hospital
over many years, where I workedon and off, homeopathy, water
birth colors, I introducedacupuncture, I opened the first
acupuncture practice forpregnant women in this hospital,
and so I brought a big, bigchange in a very conservative
(12:36):
environment, which, in fact,will never be forgotten.
But then I'm a really I'm a realbig time traveler.
I love going around.
So my journey took me into NewZealand where I worked as a
senior midwife for one of thefour biggest hospitals.
Now I have to say I don't knowif anyone here that is listening
has been to New Zealand Twobeautiful islands, lots of
(12:59):
nature, lovely people, but thebirthing is also not the
greatest.
So I worked for one of thosefour biggest hospitals big
neonatal unit, risk pregnancies.
I worked with a senior midwife,10 labor rooms, all midwifery
led.
So that was great.
But after two years I felt like, ah, it's not really what I
want to do.
So I went back to Germany andthen my next stopover was
(13:22):
Australia.
Because I love Australia andI've been many, many times Now
in Australia, I migrated.
My wish was I really would liketo work for a birth center.
I don't want to work for one ofthe big hospitals anymore.
Done it, been there, done it.
So I started working in Sydneyfor the Royal Prince Alfred
Hospital, and that is well.
I don't know what the biggestone is in the States.
(13:44):
Here in Berlin it's Charité.
It's a big teaching andscientific research hospital,
and so I started working therein their birth center, which is
100% midwifery led, no doctorsinvolved, no CTG, nothing like
this, only a handheld doptone100 births, 30% of those are
water births Absolutelyfantastic.
(14:07):
So some of the women never sawa doctor in their whole
pregnancy, birth and the timeafter, or maybe once, or if they
needed an ultrasound.
And then my journey took meactually back to Germany.
Sadly, my parents got very,very sick.
So you know the distancebetween Australia and Germany is
a huge distance.
So I went back and then Istarted my own midwifery
(14:29):
practice.
I decided not to do birthsanymore or attend them, but to
gradually, gradually go moreinto education, and so I started
running my weekend workshops,my hypnobirthing.
I became an energy trainer andyou know, this journey is a
journey on its own.
Everything I've done, frombecoming a trainer, a coach, a
(14:50):
speaker, speaking all over theworld Norway, india, belarus got
nowhere and more coming,publishing my book, but also
being right in the beginning.
Many of my clients find me ateight weeks, nine weeks, 10
weeks.
Some find me very, very late,but they love because I help
them again solve their problems.
(15:11):
So you know, I think in ourwork we can find so many
different pit stops where we cando something for the woman, for
the man, for the baby, and thatis amazing.
Wow, it was a long talk, sorry.
Speaker 1 (15:40):
I want to talk about interventions in birth.
You have a great experiencebecause you have worked in
different hospitals.
You've worked in differentcountries and thinking about
interventions and how there'ssuch a wide variance of
interventions when it comes tobirth work.
In your book you talk aboutoxytocin.
Where I live and work, oxytocinis everywhere.
Oxytocin is everywhere, but Iam referring to synthetic
(16:03):
oxytocin.
Speaker 2 (16:04):
Yeah Well, you know, the real oxytocin is Love.
Is in referring to syntheticoxytocin?
Yeah well, you know, the realoxytocin is love is in the air.
Love is in the air.
Speaker 1 (16:10):
I want to read a little excerpt.
You write it is oxytocin thatstimulates the frequent
contractions required to givebirth.
But once the baby is born,oxytocin is released.
When a woman looks at her babyfor the first time, giving rise
to that vital bond that she willhave with her baby.
You write for a tip avoidsynthetic oxytocin.
(16:32):
Your brain cannot process it.
Natural oxytocin is released inpulses, whereas the artificial
stuff will hit you like a rocketand will not give you the
feelings of connectedness,happiness.
You like a rocket and will notgive you the feelings of
connectedness, happiness,euphoria, and that natural
(16:53):
oxytocin brings.
Two things I want to say.
One, I have three children.
Two were induced with thesynthetic oxytocin and the third
one I was like no, don't touchme.
I waited for labor.
I can speak from personalexperience that what you've
written resonates with me Havingthe natural oxytocin in your
body, that rush, thoseendorphins, that connectedness.
I left the hospital wanting todo it again.
I was on a high, it happened tome.
(17:14):
It wasn't my experience, it'ssomething that somebody did to
me.
So I can connect to that and Ithink about what's going on with
women here in the US.
There's so much postpartumdepression and people having
birth trauma.
There's such a high incidenceof people using our birth
providers encouraging thesynthetic oxytocin with
(17:36):
induction, so I would love foryou to elaborate on what you've
written and how you educate yourpatients or people who come to
you about the differences ofsynthetic oxytocin and natural
oxytocin and how it can affectyour labor, birth and your
postpartum period.
Speaker 2 (17:54):
In my courses I explain about the orchestra of
hormones and how it's playing.
And you know there is.
How can I say I tell them aboutthe difference between the
synthetic and the well,body-made oxytocin?
Because the difference is howcan I say?
Let me think, how can I explainthis in the best way?
(18:15):
Well, oxytocin is produced by asmall gland in the middle of
the brain.
It's released in pulses,naturally.
That's why contractions come.
That's why contractions come.
That's why contractions go.
Oxytocin, in its own ability inour sexuality, gives us an
orgasm.
It allows a certain group ofmuscles to move in a wave-like
(18:36):
motion.
That's why, when we have anorgasm, we have this kind of
feeling.
When we give birth, we have thesame kind of feeling.
It only talks to a certaingroup of muscles because
otherwise, every time whenyou're in love, you would walk
around in a wave-like motion.
I believe your boss would sayexcuse me, stephanie, if you
were a boss, what the heck iswrong with you?
(18:56):
And he would say love, I'm inlove, I'm in love.
And that's, of course, our gutfeeling, because that's our
second brain.
They found receptors, of course, on top of the uterus and
that's why, when we are in labor, the uterus, like a coffee
plunger, goes up and down.
They found receptors in ourheart.
So you know, many things in ourbirth happen through the limbic
(19:19):
system, which is the old partof the brain where, of course,
birth is in.
And the natural way of givingbirth will allow you to, first
of all, feel open and trust.
That's already essentialfeeling that you have when you
make love and that can onlyhappen when it comes internal.
And secondly, it's a hormonethat lowers anxieties.
(19:42):
It's a hormone that connectsyou.
It's also a hormone that is notonly a sexual hormone.
You know, it's like a hormonewhen we hold hands, when we hug
our friends, when we spend sometime together, we sit and enjoy
and we really feel like we'repart of the universe.
But it can only work like thiswhen given either through your
(20:04):
nose or produced by yourself,because when it goes through the
blood it doesn't have thiseffect.
Now, if it would be giventhrough your nose, because the
nose is the direct gatewaystraight away directly into the
limbic system, into your brain,nose and mouth.
But of course we don't eatoxytocin right now.
(20:25):
But in the past we used to use anasal spray.
I don't know if you ever usedthis.
It was called Cytocinone nasalspray.
We used it as a pre-overduestress test.
So we would give a couple ofyou know, hops of nasal spray
(20:46):
and then put the woman on themonitor to see what was going on
.
And we also did it in thepostnatal time.
Sometimes, when you know themilk came in and you wanted the
milk to flow, then you wouldgive a couple of nasal sprays,
like a couple of hops, andthat's it.
But, you know, then it wastaken off and because I think it
was, the dosage seemed likeokay, a bit of this or a bit
(21:08):
more, not quite sure how much itis.
Well, you know, this was adifferent time, I'm quite clear,
so I still remember it.
Let me give you a research,because I always say love is in
the air first of all, peoplethink they fall in love on first
sight, but they fall in love onfirst smell.
You know research.
What they did is they had agroup of men, and men in general
(21:29):
have less oxytocin receptorsthan women.
I think nature knows that womenat one stage will have to give
birth.
It's not the men, you know.
And men in the old days had togo hunting in the Stone Age and
life was dangerous.
Men would sometimes not comeback and so in this research
(21:49):
they gave money to like $500 toa group of men.
Half of the group of men gotnasal spray, the other half
didn't.
Then a man would walk in andwould say I'm a professional
player, give me all your money,honey, let me play.
You know, oxytocin is soamazing as a hormone.
It really gives you thisfeeling of okay, I blindly trust
(22:10):
you, I'm so in love with you.
Out of the nasal spray group, Ithink more than 90% blindly,
willingly give their money to aguy they had never seen in their
life.
And so when we say love makesblind, that's the same effect.
Coming back to the effect, sowhen you have a hundred times
more oxytocin after the birthwhich of course you have, why?
(22:34):
Because nature is smart.
So, first of all, when thebaby's out, nature wants to be
sure mom is going to be safe, soshe can birth her placenta, her
afterbirth.
So that's why you have 100times more oxytocin.
Secondly, one other effect ofoxytocin is it helps you to get
over things.
(22:54):
So when your birth was hard andyou have 100 times more
oxytocin, it still allows you tobond, fall in love with your
baby and also get a little biteasier over a harder birth.
Yeah, and for the first hour,your oxytocin level and all
other hormones are so high thatyou really feel like I call it
(23:14):
ecstasy for moms to be all right.
You're on this real hormonerush.
You feel like I can fly, youlaugh, you cry, you kiss, you do
all of it.
Or it would have come somehowthrough your nose when it is in
an IV drip.
I think it hits the brainbarrier in a different way and
has just a different effect.
However, I want to saysomething for all the moms here
(23:38):
and women that might needsomething or even might need a
C-section.
Please don't feel sad.
There is when you understandhow those hormones work.
There truly is ways how you canreconnect and fall in love,
even that you maybe have alittle bit a slower onset of it.
There is love on second sight,right, stephanie?
Speaker 1 (24:00):
yes, absolutely, me, yes, absolutely.
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out our Not your Average Birthcourse.
In this course, I discuss thevariations that exist in
hospital practices based onpolicies, staffing and budgets,
all of which can directly affectyour birth experience and
outcome.
I want to shift gears and talkabout the emotional and physical
(25:46):
support that partners givewhile we're in labor, and you
really go into this in your bookand you call out partners and
you tell the woman or thebirthing individuals who are
preparing for birth.
Pick somebody who's going to beable to show up for you
throughout the labor.
Right and you really go intohow partners who are going to be
there and how they can providethe emotional and physical
support.
(26:06):
So I'd like for you just totalk with us about what partners
can do and why it's soimportant.
Speaker 2 (26:14):
First of all, just a quick story, not too long.
My dad was a soldier in theGerman army and trust me, he
really was.
He became an officer.
He was very supportive, heliked kickboxing, he loved
riding motorbike races, he loveddriving car races and I think
he loved my mom.
So 1957, 1962.
(26:37):
And, of course, on the 22nd ofMay, thank you for the birthday
greetings.
And, of course, on the 22nd ofMay, thank you for the birthday
greetings.
My dad attended all threebirths in a time when no man
would come along to the birth.
So you know I had a role modelsince I was a kid, and so I tell
you, for me in the 70s and 80s,when I started off, this came
(26:57):
along, and always what partnershave their own place?
First of all, t for two and twoto tango.
And who knows the womanemotionally better than the
partner?
No one normally.
You know it's your baby.
It's like something that youcreated together, and to be at a
birth is amazing, but only, andonly if you are well prepared.
(27:19):
Otherwise you might be in shock.
The way you see the woman inlabor, the whole experience.
You can be so strong, and so Ilike partners to be involved,
because isn't it?
The worst part is if you'rejust kind of standing around
like a we call it, like a falsepenny, and you feel like you
should do something, but I'm notquite sure what to do.
(27:41):
So that's why I say partnersshould be involved from the
beginning, as soon as they feellike, okay, let's get into it,
and definitely latest after thebirth class, because they can be
a perfect I call it almosthandmaiden.
They will hold your hand, theywill breathe together with you,
they will give you compliments,they will bring your dopamine
(28:03):
you.
They will give you compliments,they will bring your dopamine
up.
They will tell you wow, you'reso amazing.
You are really, you know,fantastic.
You can do it.
And here's my hand, let's gotogether.
They will massage you, theywill offer you a drink.
Yeah, they will really comfortyou.
And it's like when you hike upa mountain.
Sometimes you feel like I can'tdo this anymore, and then
(28:25):
someone comes along and says allright, I can't walk for you,
but you and me we can walktogether.
Let's go together and, step bystep, you do.
And you know also at the end,when you have been at the birth
and you saw your baby being born, it creates also a different
feeling of wow, what a big jobthe woman has done.
(28:47):
You know, it's almost as if youkneel down in front of Mother
Nature, and I think it willoften help partners to
understand how vulnerable youare and how much support you
need for the first few weeks.
Partners that are well-preparedbecome what I call a triple P.
You know what a triple P isyour perfect pregnancy partner,
(29:13):
Partner in crime, and partnerslove it.
You know I work with expertsfrom all over the world.
They come from cultures wheremen often don't come to the
birth and they are so gratefulto have, you know, some
knowledge to come along, to feellike I'm a real part of that,
I'm important, I can dosomething, I can help, and
(29:36):
that's why I think partners areimportant.
And it can be little thingsjust handing you a drink, giving
you a hug, holding your hand,walking with you it's all these
little things that you do.
You really do that when youreally really love someone,
isn't it?
Speaker 1 (30:08):
For women who are going into labor and they don't
have a partner.
All these things that you speakof can also be given through a
mother, a friend, anyone who isthere to support you.
Speaker 2 (30:22):
Absolutely so.
It doesn't have to be apartner-partner.
It can be your best friend, itcan be your mom if she's up for
it.
Some moms are, some are not.
It can be your sister, it canbe even a doula, it can be a
midwife with visiting rights,but it has to be someone that is
(30:43):
really up for it, someone thatsays, okay, I'm committed, I'm
here to help.
I would say midwives often takethis part as well, right,
stephanie, at least in Germany.
But again, the problem is oftenbeing in the system.
You're so caught up often withbeing so busy, so many women
coming in the system.
You're so caught up often withbeing so busy, so many women
(31:04):
coming in emergencies, so thatoften you cannot give.
There is so much wantingone-to-one care that every woman
in fact would deserve.
Speaker 1 (31:14):
Yeah, it's hard working with the obstetric care
model and a midwifery care model.
Even in the event where it'ssuper busy and there's a lot
going on, patients aredelivering and going back to the
OR.
I have found in my clinicalpractice that the midwifery
model of care the midwives willbe there longer, more empathetic
(31:37):
, more patient than theobstetric model of care more
patients than the obstetricmodel of care.
Speaker 2 (31:43):
Yeah, I have to say, I think in the States there's a
big difference, where here inGermany, I have to say, it's
midwives, so the obstetric careis still midwives.
So even if you have a privatedoctor, even if a private doctor
would show up for the birth inGermany, if everything is a
normal birth, it's still themidwife that would actually do
(32:05):
the delivery, it's not thedoctor, and so the doctor will
be just standing there andthey'd say congratulations,
maybe do some sutures or examinethe baby.
When I worked in Australia, forinstance, I was very like what
is going on here.
So when the woman had a privateobstetrician, even a birth
center, the other woman wouldcome in, I would take care of
(32:27):
her.
Then I would have to ring thisprivate practitioner or
obstetrician and he would comein and then finally put the
hands on the baby and then getall the flowers and all the
glory.
I was like what?
What is that?
I mean for me?
I love to empower women andwhat I love, for instance, is
okay, I've done water birthsalready in the 90s I attended
(32:48):
them.
But when I worked in Australia,they, for instance, have done
big studies about water birth,water birth in the hospital
system is hands off.
No one is twiddling around withtheir fingers.
Nope, no matter, no, no, no oneis doing anything.
We have a big flashlight and alittle mirror that is
unbreakable.
You just check with theflashlight and I say, when I
(33:12):
started working in a birthcenter in Australia, I said to
my colleague we're out, we havea lot of power cuts here.
What the heck is going on?
So many big flashlights?
My colleague was on the floor,you are.
All I know is when there's bigflashlights everywhere usually
means power cut, and so Ilearned it was the flashlight
(33:33):
that you used for just checking,is the head out?
Great, telling the womanbreathe the baby out, and then
you would just help pick it up.
So you see, every country has alittle detail that's different,
and I know that the states havea very separate kind of system
where here, no matter where yougo, every labor ward, it's
midwives working, not nurses.
(33:54):
Nurses and not a lot.
And we don't have obstetricnurses.
We always had direct entrymidwives.
That's it Okay From thebeginning.
And by the way people, ladies,listen here comes In Germany, by
law, midwife is allowed to do anormal delivery all by herself,
(34:14):
even without a doctor.
That's why home birth and birthcenters are possible, but a
doctor cannot do a birth withoutthe presence of a midwife, and
this law is over 100 years old.
So I think that's somethingreally good to say, because when
there was a shortage ofmidwives, doctors wanted to
(34:35):
deliver babies only with nurses.
But nurses have no traininglike we have.
They know nothing about babiesbirth, all of that, and then the
midwives put out a big protestand said no, no, this law exists
and we want to keep this law.
No way that we're going tochange it, and ever since this
law has been staying with us.
(34:55):
That is a big protection formothers, babies and for midwives
.
Speaker 1 (35:00):
I love how you prefaced that, saying that this
law is a big protection formothers, babies and for midwives
.
I love how you prefaced that,saying that this lot is a big
protection for mothers, babiesand women, because it's so true.
It's so true.
I didn't know that.
That's amazing.
Speaker 2 (35:14):
I wish more places were like that Well, you know, I
wish every woman would haveaccess to wonderful midwifery
care.
I wish that every midwife wouldalso be able to create a really
good income through herwonderful work.
This is what I wish.
I wish happiness and balance onall parts.
I'll tell you what.
I also know that some of theobstetricians would wish for
(35:37):
that too, because I've workedwith many, many, and you know
many.
I mean people.
Look, I'm 62,.
I mean you.
You can't see me, but I've donethis since I'm 20.
I've worked with so many doctorshere in Berlin.
Some of them they were justyoung assistant doctors, and
many of those are now firstconsultants.
But when they meet me theyalways say got your job, we
learned so much together.
I said yeah, because when youstarted, I said you know if
(35:59):
you're really good, if you'refriendly with the midwives.
I said yeah, because when youstarted, I said you know if
you're really good, if you'refriendly with the midwives.
I said then we will allow youto do a few things that you
normally don't do.
Okay, but on the other hand,you also have to.
Let us get on with what we knowfrom our experience.
So you know, even though Iworked many times in hospitals,
I found a whole nice group ofwonderful, wonderful doctors Not
(36:22):
all of them, but a huge number.
But even nowadays, so 20 yearslater, they always say good job.
I say, come on, say it.
It was great because it wasworking together.
This is how it should be okay.
Look who you are and what youdo.
It's really working togetherfor the best outcome for mothers
and babies and families andpartners.
You are and what you do it'sreally working together for the
best outcome for mothers andbabies and families and partners
(36:44):
.
It should be the happiest dayin your life.
Yeah, really, because you know,stephanie, my saying we do
forget birthdays, but we neverforget the day of the birth.
Speaker 1 (36:55):
Yeah, and I do genuinely believe that anyone
going into birth work wants tohelp.
From what I see, a lot of themishaps and the fails come from
the system right From lack ofeducation, lack of staffing,
protocols in hospitals, at leastin the US.
The hospitals are for profit,so policies and protocols are
(37:19):
profit-based.
People go into birth work,whether it's midwives,
obstetricians wanting to do theright thing and wanting to have
all the time in the world to letwomen labor, but barriers to
care because of policies,staffing and issues that are
more systemic-based as opposedto bad practice.
Speaker 2 (37:40):
Yeah, that's sad because there's so much evidence
about that.
I mean, you know God knows howmany years every study has shown
, when women are in midwiferycare, one-to-one in their
pregnancy and during labor, theoutcome at the birth is just
much better.
Also, you know, even like, forinstance, for everything
(38:00):
afterwards I mean Germany has a.
I have to say it's kind of bothways.
For the women it's a fantasticsystem.
For the midwives it's gettingreally bad right now.
But the women can have 22consultations with the midwife
and they still go see theirdoctor.
That's all separate.
They can choose freely wherethey want to give birth and then
(38:27):
the midwife will come up to 12weeks after the birth to their
home or after some weeks to themidwife's practice.
But in the first 10 days themidwife can come once per day
for a postnatal visit.
After 10 days, 16 more visitsfor the woman.
You know the system would bewonderful.
Even a childbirth class isincluded for the woman.
All of that.
It's just that the midwives atthe moment get put down with
(38:49):
very little amount of money.
We work for very little moneyand that's the problem.
So I always tell the women thesystem is fantastic for the
women.
The problem is it's notfantastic for the midwife and
that creates a big gap.
Yeah, and that gap is gettingbigger and bigger year by year.
But yeah, for instance, I thinkthe number of women
breastfeeding, of course, inGermany is higher than in the US
(39:11):
.
But I'm not surprised if youhave to go back to work.
What?
After two, three, four weeks?
Breastfeeding is onlyestablished six to eight weeks
after your birth.
Only your postnatal time isalready up to six weeks, so you
go back in a time where you'reactually not even fully, well,
fully recovered, say you know,partially recovered.
So I find that cool, I have tosay, for such a modern country
(39:43):
it is really really bad image.
Speaker 1 (39:44):
Yeah, sorry, it's okay.
I agree with you and I thinkthat what you're saying is
reflecting in outcomes thatwe're seeing in women right now.
It just was reported that thenumber one cause of perinatal
death in women is postpartumsuicide.
That's the number one causeright now, and if you think
about all the factors that we'retalking about you think about
intrapartum care, wheresynthetic Pitocin is the
(40:05):
predominant there's high ratesof C-section, women are
reporting birth trauma, womendon't have the financial means
to stay home postpartum theseare all compounded issues that
are leading to a horrible,horrible outcome where mothers
are committing suicide, and it'salso predominantly affecting
women of color in the UnitedStates, and it's something that
(40:28):
we as a society need to worktowards, through women coming
forward and creating a spacewhere women can talk about their
stories instead of justeveryone telling them.
This is what it's supposed to belike, this is what it is.
This is how you're supposed tofeel.
This is what it's supposed tobe like.
This is what it is.
This is how you're supposed tofeel.
This is what birth is supposedto be like creating a space
where women can talk to othersand hear from other women that
I'm not alone and that thisisn't healthy.
(40:49):
And how can we move forwardtogether in creating a healthy,
safe space for us to be moms, tobe women and have healthy and
happy families?
Speaker 2 (41:00):
yeah, and I really say a fantastic job you're doing
, stephanie, really chapeau,thank you.
You know there's a couple ofthings I want to say about that.
Of course, it has never alwaysbeen like that in Germany.
It was also women that demandedthings.
Women said no, I'm not puttingup with that, I'm not doing that
.
Now I will give a story of afriend of mine that home birthed
(41:22):
in Germany and birthed a secondbaby in the States.
I will give you the short storybecause it's quite an
interesting story.
So I think what it needs iswomen to be empowered, partners
to be empowered, and alsosometimes to say no to the
system, to say is that reallynecessary?
Proof, to me it's reallynecessary.
I mean, I know people will sayyou're 40 years old, you have to
(41:43):
have an induction at.
You know, once you hit 40 weeks, otherwise you kill your baby.
Then I would say, okay, show methe scientific, really, show me
the research that this is true.
Show me a proven research, notjust a lame duck.
Show it to me.
Like, I have a client, well, hada client.
She was 55 when she waspregnant.
(42:04):
Of course she had a donor egg.
Yeah, well, not allowed inGermany, she did it in LA.
So thanks to the US, and shewent back to Germany.
Then she came to me and saidI'm 55 and I want a natural
birth.
I said great, you're talking tothe right person.
Listen, everyone will tell youyou're 55.
(42:32):
You should have a C-section.
I said I'm not telling you this, but anyhow.
So my client went 40 plus threeand I said to her once you hit
40 weeks, the pressure's goingto be full on.
So you know, she said yes to aninduction at, I think, 40 plus
3.
She said yes to an inductionbecause the pressure was getting
on.
I think there's so littleresearch about women like you.
Anyhow, they induced hermechanically.
(42:55):
She ruptured her membranespontaneously, then they left
her alone and then she birthedher lovely daughter 12 hours
later.
Yay really.
But you know, the thing is,women have to kind of stand up
for their rights when coming tolabor.
So my first step is alwayseducate yourself, find a
(43:18):
like-minded community, have alook, not every hospital or
every doctor is going to be bad.
There's also, of course, a fewpeople everywhere, also in the
States, that would say well,enough is enough.
And also advocate for thehealth of the whole nation,
because if you have such badtrauma that you know the suicide
rate is going up.
(43:39):
Post-traumatic depression isgoing up.
It has a huge impact on how weform societies, on how we
actually live our life, and whenyou look into violence in
societies, hdhs, whatever it is,all the different things you
can look at it now from allangles.
And I have to say, if you wanta healthy, happy society that is
(44:00):
healthy from the base up to thetop, well you have to start the
pregnancy, birth and the timeafter that is the very beginning
and it starts with a positivebirth experience and it starts
with happy hormones.
It starts with good bonding, itstarts with that and if a
society does not understand that, well then the society needs a
(44:22):
little bit more education.
That's really my opinion.
You have a quote in your book.
Speaker 1 (44:28):
That resonates exactly with what we're talking
about.
Giving birth should be yourgreatest achievement, not your
greatest fear, written by janeweidman, who's the founder of
Birth Buddy, empowering woman.
For some reason, there's beenthis transition where birth is
feared and not revered, and weshould be walking away stronger,
(44:50):
more empowered, like I just did, that I can do anything.
Speaker 2 (44:54):
I agree.
I had a lovely client fromSouth Africa who was 14 years
old First baby Came to Germany.
Well, you know, moving from onecountry to another when you're
highly pregnant and almost readyto give birth and finding a
class, this is super stressful.
But you know, she took my classwith her husband and she
(45:14):
birthed her baby, I think aboutfour or five weeks later, and
she came back to me and she saidI really have to say my birth
was wild, but I never felt sopowerful in all my life.
And I said well done, lori.
Speaker 1 (45:30):
That's exactly how every woman should feel talk to
us a little bit about right now.
You're not at bedside, you'renot helping women in birth.
You have a bigger goal.
(45:50):
You have your birth courses,you have your book, you're
speaking, you're educating,bringing your message about
midwifery model of care andwoman empowerment and making
waves.
Tell us a little bit about whatyou're doing now and how that
is making an impact in the birthcommunity more of a global
impact.
Speaker 2 (46:09):
Yeah, thanks for that great question.
Well, right now I talk abouttopics.
First of all, I have differenttopics, so I talk about topics
like how can we form a healthybaby inside the womb, being
healthy ourselves on all levels,because, as I said to you,
everything starts in the womb.
(46:30):
That's our first classroom, soI really want to educate people
more about the right supplements, nutrition, exercise, I mean.
For me, the model is reallylike a pyramid.
The bottom is your body,everything with the body
Exercise, sleep, relaxation,acupuncture, massages, name it.
(46:50):
Next, level up, your emotionwho are you in the context of
the people around you?
Next level up is your mindsetwhat are you telling yourself
when no one is listening?
And, of course, top level, it'sthe cherry on the top your
spiritual belief.
So we are going constantly inwaves through all levels, and
all levels support each other.
(47:11):
So that's something I talkabout, but I also talk about
topics like female leadershipand giving birth.
How are these things connected?
Because I think in the modernworld, we need a different model
.
Sorry, the male model has doneit for me.
Thanks and no thanks.
I think it's time for femaleleadership.
And when we look into femaleleadership, well, I think you
(47:34):
know, birth, giving birth,having babies, having a family
must have some kind of place,must have some room.
Yeah, we don't want to go onlike just elbows out.
Career it's fine to have acareer, there's nothing wrong
with that.
But you know, you want to beable to have a career and a baby
and a family, and you know wewant women to lead in a female
(47:57):
way, not in what I call cover upstyle.
Yeah, I do not like these malewomen because they're not doing
female leadership.
So it's this kind of topic Italk about.
I also talk, of course, aboutout of trauma back into
happiness, because that is a bigtopic as well.
So I have different topics andI go to different places and
(48:17):
speak and I have big plans.
I would love to give a TED Talk, I will write another book, but
right now, in the next coupleof weeks, I go to the States and
I talk to many people that Imeet, but in London I'm going to
speak in a Global Women'sSummit about those topics.
Then in October you know it'sdifferent places where I go, but
(48:41):
you know the world is full ofboys.
Of course, on Instagram, I talkabout it.
I talk about it some on YouTube, but I can't tell you.
I think you know, at the momentwe live in a time where you
have information overload, can Isay, especially with AI, now
everyone is going to produce somuch content, but it doesn't
mean people don't produce wisdom.
(49:02):
So I always tell my communities, when I teach them online or
offline and I teach online oroffline really both styles that
you have to find yourself acouple of good experts and you
have to find yourself acommunity, because just looking
at something on Instagram is notgoing to do it.
(49:24):
You need to be able to get realanswers, and real answers are
not just from a one ofexperience.
You need someone that has abroad experience.
I love mom's stories, don't getme wrong, and I share many of
those with my community, but theother hand is it has two things
.
Okay, stephanie, and I thinkyou will agree Once you've been
(49:46):
at hundreds of thousands ofbirths, you really get a deep
insight on how birth works.
Also the problems that canarrive and the solutions that
you need.
Just because you drive a cardoesn't make you a mechanic or
an engineer, and even I say, yes, I love your story when you
gave birth to one, two or threebabies, but still, what you tell
(50:11):
me is your experience at yourbirth.
It makes you an expert on yourbirths, but it doesn't make you
an expert on generallyeverything around birth.
Because why on earth would Ihave spent 42 years digging
around, learning, trying out,testing things?
Okay, let's try that.
(50:32):
Okay, that's not right.
Okay, let's try that.
And you know, that's what I'msaying.
You can't read experience andyou can't buy it and you can't
replace it.
It is something that, even thatI love all modern technology,
but you know the amount ofhundreds of thousands of hours
sitting with a woman through herbirth observing this, observing
(50:56):
that the smell, the sound, thechange in face, the smell of,
like, the change of how she acts, how she talks, everything.
That's something you can trulyonly learn through experience
and that makes you a real expert.
And so my advice is to allthose women out there share your
(51:19):
stories, talk about what workedfor you, but also truly find
yourself an expert you trust,where you feel, hey, I have a
voice, I'm heard and I can ask aquestion.
And then this person mightthink dig in her big birth
hopper of God knows how manybirths, god knows how many women
(51:41):
and experience.
Should we pull out somethingwhere she says, yeah right, I
know something and if not, I'lldig even deeper?
That is my advice.
You thought that was amazingadvice.
(52:04):
It took me 42 years, from 20 to62.
I have to laugh.
You know, when I was young Ihad a teeth over 60, in her 60s
with gray hair, but she's reallyold.
And now I think, yeah right,jutta, you know, put the finger
(52:26):
on your own nose, how old areyou?
Oh, yeah, right, 62.
And you know, all my clients,of course, are in their 30s,
some are in their 40s.
But you know, when I haveinterns that think about
becoming midwives in their 20s,I always say, gosh, I must look
really old to you.
But don't worry, I swing mylegs because I'm dynamic
(52:46):
pregnancy yoga and, trust me,I'll have more power.
But you know, I have to say andI want to say that to all of
you don't let people stop youfrom feeling good, right.
Don't let people stop you fromfinding help if you need Okay,
if there's a problem.
I met a woman here in my yogaclass and she came for a
(53:07):
one-to-one consultation.
She's only 13 weeks and when Istarted talking to her she got
really kind of very strange andI thought what the heck is going
on here.
Then she burst out into tearsand she said my friend gave
birth and I said yeah, and thenshe said my friend killed
herself.
(53:28):
You know, it was her bestfriend.
And I said to her I am so, sosorry.
That should really never, never, ever happen, never.
You know, that is terrible.
I was so, was so upset, youknow, and then of course there's
so much going on.
But, yeah, so you know, that'swhy I say if any of you needs
(53:50):
help, if any of you feels down,please find help.
And if any of your friendslooks, you know, unhappy in the
postnatal period, can't get outof bed, is crying or acts
strangely, do not hesitate, goand get help.
Please don't let women suffer,don't let them go down that
route.
Speaker 1 (54:10):
That is so horrible, honestly, For women who are
listening to the episode andthey want to learn more about
you and your work.
How can they find you?
Speaker 2 (54:20):
You can find me everywhere.
You can find me on LinkedInwith my name that you know.
Stephanie will post JuttaWohlbach.
You can find me on Instagram.
You find me well with a verysmall YouTube channel, midwife,
and you can find me onelementsofbirthde.
But if you Google me, you willalways come out with all
(54:44):
information my email, myWhatsApp number.
Please don't call me threeo'clock in the morning.
I love to sleep, but peoplehave.
You know.
I have a question.
My answer was three o'clock inthe morning.
I have a question too.
That's how people can connectwith me.
You can always get in touchwith me through email.
Yeah, of those channels, andyou know, of course, I have a
(55:07):
book, I have many things andalso I work.
Really I love working withpeople from all over the world
and I usually find a solution,even if you live in a time zone
that is not mine, because Itravel a lot.
So I would love you to get intouch with me.
Speaker 1 (55:23):
If anyone is interested in learning more
about Utah, your work and whatyou're doing and the difference
that you're making, reach out,because this has been a fabulous
conversation.
I've learned so much in mypractice from your book Happy
Birthing Days A Midwife's Secretto a Joyful, safe and Happy
Birth, and really for maternalhealth care workers working in
(55:44):
medical complexes it's a greatread just to take the medical
side apart and really bring inthe holistic, natural, bring it
back to what birth really is.
Speaker 2 (55:55):
Yeah, a joyful moment .
That's what it should be.
Forgettable, that's really whatit should be.
Well, thanks, stephanie.
Thanks so much for having me asa guest.
I'm so glad we met Me too.
We meet in person one day, Iknow that'd be fabulous.
Speaker 1 (56:15):
I would love that.
Speaker 2 (56:16):
Yeah, I think it will happen.
Maybe not in the next two weeks, but, yeah, I think we'll stay
in touch and we'll meet.
Then we have a nice cup ofcoffee and a chat.
Yeah, okay, that sounds perfect.
I love that.
Thanks everyone, and thank youso much.
Speaker 1 (56:42):
Hey there, amazing listeners.
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(57:06):
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Every contribution, big orsmall, will make a huge
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From the bottom of my heart,thank you for being a part of
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(57:26):
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We're excited to have you here.
Please give us a follow If youor someone you know would like
to be a guest on the show, reachout to us via email at info at
maternalwealthcom.
And remember stay healthy,embrace your power and you got
(57:49):
this.
Welcome to the Maternal Wealth Podcast, a space
for all things related tomaternal health, pregnancy and
beyond.
I'm your host, stephanieTheriault.
I'm a labor and delivery nurseand a mother to three beautiful
boys.
Each week, we dive intoinspiring stories and expert
insights to remind us of thepower that you hold in
childbirth and motherhood.
We're here to explore the joys,the challenges and the
(00:38):
complexities of maternal health.
Every mother's journey isunique and every story deserves
to be told.
Please note that this podcastis for entertainment purposes
only.
It is not intended to replaceprofessional medical advice,
diagnosis or treatment.
Always consult with yourhealthcare provider for medical
guidance that is tailored toyour specific needs.
(00:59):
Are you ready?
Let's get into it.
(01:19):
In this week's episode, Iconnect with the inspiring
German midwife, jutta Worlam,who brings over 40 years of
midwifery experience into herpractice across Germany, new
Zealand and Australia.
Together, we explore theprofound intimacy of the
midwifery model of care, thebeautiful variations and
practice found across the globe,the empowering journey of
(01:41):
childbirth and the essentialquest for a supportive community
with true experts in the fieldof birth.
Jutta sheds light on thefascinating insights from her
recent book Happy Birthing Daysa midwife's secret to a joyful,
safe and happy birth.
We discuss the vitaldistinctions between organic
(02:03):
oxytocin and synthetic pitocin,the transformative role of
prepared birth partners and therich legacy of midwifery in
Germany.
I hope that you find ourconversation as uplifting as I
did.
Welcome, jutta, to the MaternalWell Podcast.
I'm so glad you're here.
Speaker 2 (02:21):
What can I say?
Thank you, thank you.
I'm really excited to be hereand I'm grateful you invited me
as a guest, so thanks very much.
Speaker 1 (02:30):
Of course I'm excited , as a nurse in the United
States in a very medical,complex practice, to learn about
more of a midwifery care modelin Germany, and I know you've
worked in other countries too,so I'm excited to get into this
conversation.
Speaker 2 (02:45):
Well, what shall we start?
First things first.
So many things I could talkabout and, if you want, I will
introduce a little bit about themodel in a moment.
Speaker 1 (02:55):
Sure, what made you decide to become a midwife and
what does the midwifery caremodel look like for you in your
practice?
Speaker 2 (03:02):
Oh, what a wonderful question.
So you know, when I was young,I didn't want to be a midwife.
I wanted to be an actress, asinger, a journalist, an artist.
And so when I was a teenager, Iapplied for art school.
I wanted to do something withmy hands.
But everywhere I went in the70s, people said, oh no, we
already got a boy.
(03:22):
So I was very frustrated.
I didn't understand why wouldthey always have a boy instead
of me when I was so motivated?
Anyway, years went by, I wasstill in school and one night I
thought, well, I better take awalk around and have a little
walk to think what else it isthat I could become.
(03:43):
So, you know, I looked at alldifferent areas.
I was a very social person.
I always was the person thatpeople, my you know, my friends,
teenage friends would come toand tell their problems, and I
would always try to find thebest solution.
So I was really like that, ago-to person for finding a
solution.
So when I took this walk, Ithought shall I become a social
(04:03):
worker?
Nah, shall I become a nurse?
Nah, not really.
But somehow the word midwife,giving birth, pregnancy, the
beginning of everything, poppedinto my head.
Now, I didn't know a pregnantwoman, I didn't know a midwife.
But the next day I got someinformation.
And a couple of days later Ibought a book which was called
(04:24):
Birth Without Violence, writtenby a fantastic obstetrician
named Frédéric Le Boyer, who infact brought back natural
childbirth to Europe in the 70s.
And then I was convinced that'sit.
I was a humanist, I was afeminist at a young age and I
felt like, wow, that is soamazing, that's what I want to
be.
And after that I never changedmy mind again.
Speaker 1 (04:47):
Talk to us about the path into midwifery education,
clinical practice.
How does one become a midwifein Germany?
Speaker 2 (04:54):
Okay, in the 80s when I trained, you actually trained
in a state hospital and you hadto do a medical diploma in
front of the state.
So it's like a true medicaldiploma.
We're not lay midwives and youcannot train with a midwife.
You do an internship with ahome birth midwife if you want,
but you train in a hospital.
(05:14):
In the 80s it was the firsttime ever that we trained for
three years In the meantime.
Now midwives in Germany have tostudy, so they have to train in
a hospital and have to study.
Now you are not allowed to callyourself midwife if you haven't
had done your state diploma.
So no one in Germany can callthemselves midwife.
It is a true profession and youhave to show your true diploma
(05:39):
everywhere where you register inthe health office and so on and
so on.
Register in the health officeand so on and so on.
Speaker 1 (05:47):
And then now, what does birth look like in Germany?
Are you finding womenpredominantly give birth in a
hospital or a birth center, orat home.
Speaker 2 (05:55):
Okay, so, first of all, in Germany, all women have
free choice of where they wantto give birth.
They can freely choose I want ahome birth.
They can say, no, I would loveto go to a birth center.
They can say I would love totake a midwife with visiting
rights.
They can say I go to a tinysmall hospital or to a big
tertiary facility with aneonatal unit.
(06:16):
First of all, you have freechoice.
But when you look at thestatistics, of course Germany is
going like all other countries.
We are not the number one homebirth country in Europe.
That, in fact, is Holland, andthe number of home births has
kind of lingered around in avery low range 9% is the number.
But there's a big problem, Ithink you know women would love
(06:37):
to do more home birth, morebirth centers, but our liability
insurance became very, veryhigh and for that reason I think
more women will be going to thehospital.
Now I want to say somethingabout hospitals, stephanie,
because hospitals in Germany arequite different to ones in the
States.
First of all, giving birth inGermany is covered by insurance.
(07:00):
Everyone is insured, so no onehas to pay anything out of
pocket.
It doesn't matter whether youhave a home birth or water birth
, whether you have a C-sectionif needed doesn't matter.
The only time you have to pay abit on top is when you take a
midwife for visiting rights, ahome birth or birth center.
You pay a little bit of moneyfor the fact that the midwife is
(07:21):
going to be five weeks on call.
Now, when it comes to the birthsituation, how Germany is
really interacting, I have tosay okay, germany released
guidelines to lower theC-section rate.
Now here in Berlin, where I ambig city, there's hospitals that
have a C-section rate of 11 to15%.
(07:42):
That is a really good ratio of11 to 15%, and that is a really
good ratio.
We also have hospitals that have35, 40, 42% of a C-section rate
.
So it really varies very much,but we have all kinds of
hospitals and since you canchoose freely, you can also have
a look when do I want to givebirth and where do they offer
(08:03):
choices that I want and not thesystem wants?
However, just to be crystalclear, you know, globally we
look at 30 to 80, in somecountries even 90% of a
C-section rate.
So none of that is great, andeven Germany has to definitely
lower the C-section and theintervention rate.
There's absolutely no doubt.
Speaker 1 (08:24):
When you first got out of school and you started
your midwifery practice, wheredid you start?
Did you start in a hospital orin a birth center?
And then I would love to hearabout your progression into your
midwifery, because I knowyou've also worked in other
countries yeah, lovely question.
Speaker 2 (08:40):
So, of course, when I started off, I started off in a
state hospital in Stuttgart, inthe very south, where they make
Porsche, just for all yourinformation.
So this is the area where Igrew up and I was very lucky
because this stage hospital wasrun by a midwife that had sent
two of her midwives to Paris.
(09:00):
Frédéric Le Boyer had a clinicwhere women could give birth in
any way they wanted, singing indark lights, like breathing
babies out into the world, andso once these two midwives came
back, the state hospitalintroduced a natural how can I
say natural labor room with adouble bed, schiller-kitzinger
pillows, where we were allleaning over In candlelight in a
(09:24):
state hospital.
We were actually breathingbabies out into the world.
And then we had bathtubs onwheels not to clean the baby,
but the father would give thebaby a relaxation bath just
after the birth.
And let me point out, we evenhad two rooms with full rooming
in, and this since the 70s, thatwas revolutionary.
We're full rooming in, and thissince the 70s, that was
revolutionary.
(09:44):
So the way I was trained in howto give birth was a very
natural approach and, I have tosay, a very human approach.
Women's center, family center.
Partners were already there,quite, something spectacular in
the late 70s and early 80s.
(10:06):
And then from there, once I hadmy state exam, I was having a
look, where do I want to go?
I thought I need a job firstand I wanted to get some
experience.
And for some reason it wasreally difficult.
All the places where I wantedto go, they said no, no, we want
a midwife with experience.
I said to them how on earth canI become an experienced midwife
if no one employs me?
So I ended up in a tinypilgrimage village.
(10:26):
But I came to the place where Iwas 20,000 people and after six
months I became the team leaderof the birth unit.
So I said to the people thereright, let's just play some
music, bring some tapes along,sit in the bathtub, relax and
breathe your babies out.
And so I can tell you, it wasso small.
(10:49):
I was the team leader.
People said what shall we do?
I said, well, we do what thewoman wants to do and we'll give
her the best experience.
And then from there, I'm honest,my journey took me to many
places.
Later on I went traveling andthen, when I came back, I
started working for a home birthpractice.
The first place for water birthin all Berlin, before any
(11:12):
hospital.
Yeah, it was sensational.
But I'm honest, the woman thatemployed me, the midwife, was
not very nice.
She really used us, ourworkforce.
She paid very little money, thebirthing was great, but the
workload was crazy.
So after some months I quitbecause I felt like I can't work
from six in the morning untiltwo o'clock at night, seven days
(11:33):
a week.
That's not on.
But what was great is I learnedhow water birth worked.
I was running classes already,lots of postnatal care, and it
was exciting.
So then after that I thoughtwell, where can you go now?
So I decided to offer myservice to a teaching hospital.
(11:53):
A midwifery school was attached, the delight of all the
students there.
I was working in a labor wardand you know it was great
because when we had little to doI would just say right, girls,
I'm going to bust at the door, Iput a pillow underneath my
little T-shirt and I'm going toact it out.
And whatever I act out, I wantyou to practice.
(12:15):
So we had a great time and Iintroduced into this hospital
over many years, where I workedon and off, homeopathy, water
birth colors, I introducedacupuncture, I opened the first
acupuncture practice forpregnant women in this hospital,
and so I brought a big, bigchange in a very conservative
(12:36):
environment, which, in fact,will never be forgotten.
But then I'm a really I'm a realbig time traveler.
I love going around.
So my journey took me into NewZealand where I worked as a
senior midwife for one of thefour biggest hospitals.
Now I have to say I don't knowif anyone here that is listening
has been to New Zealand Twobeautiful islands, lots of
(12:59):
nature, lovely people, but thebirthing is also not the
greatest.
So I worked for one of thosefour biggest hospitals big
neonatal unit, risk pregnancies.
I worked with a senior midwife,10 labor rooms, all midwifery
led.
So that was great.
But after two years I felt like, ah, it's not really what I
want to do.
So I went back to Germany andthen my next stopover was
(13:22):
Australia.
Because I love Australia andI've been many, many times Now
in Australia, I migrated.
My wish was I really would liketo work for a birth center.
I don't want to work for one ofthe big hospitals anymore.
Done it, been there, done it.
So I started working in Sydneyfor the Royal Prince Alfred
Hospital, and that is well.
I don't know what the biggestone is in the States.
(13:44):
Here in Berlin it's Charité.
It's a big teaching andscientific research hospital,
and so I started working therein their birth center, which is
100% midwifery led, no doctorsinvolved, no CTG, nothing like
this, only a handheld doptone100 births, 30% of those are
water births Absolutelyfantastic.
(14:07):
So some of the women never sawa doctor in their whole
pregnancy, birth and the timeafter, or maybe once, or if they
needed an ultrasound.
And then my journey took meactually back to Germany.
Sadly, my parents got very,very sick.
So you know the distancebetween Australia and Germany is
a huge distance.
So I went back and then Istarted my own midwifery
(14:29):
practice.
I decided not to do birthsanymore or attend them, but to
gradually, gradually go moreinto education, and so I started
running my weekend workshops,my hypnobirthing.
I became an energy trainer andyou know, this journey is a
journey on its own.
Everything I've done, frombecoming a trainer, a coach, a
(14:50):
speaker, speaking all over theworld Norway, india, belarus got
nowhere and more coming,publishing my book, but also
being right in the beginning.
Many of my clients find me ateight weeks, nine weeks, 10
weeks.
Some find me very, very late,but they love because I help
them again solve their problems.
(15:11):
So you know, I think in ourwork we can find so many
different pit stops where we cando something for the woman, for
the man, for the baby, and thatis amazing.
Wow, it was a long talk, sorry.
Speaker 1 (15:40):
I want to talk about interventions in birth.
You have a great experiencebecause you have worked in
different hospitals.
You've worked in differentcountries and thinking about
interventions and how there'ssuch a wide variance of
interventions when it comes tobirth work.
In your book you talk aboutoxytocin.
Where I live and work, oxytocinis everywhere.
Oxytocin is everywhere, but Iam referring to synthetic
(16:03):
oxytocin.
Speaker 2 (16:04):
Yeah Well, you know, the real oxytocin is Love.
Is in referring to syntheticoxytocin?
Yeah well, you know, the realoxytocin is love is in the air.
Love is in the air.
Speaker 1 (16:10):
I want to read a little excerpt.
You write it is oxytocin thatstimulates the frequent
contractions required to givebirth.
But once the baby is born,oxytocin is released.
When a woman looks at her babyfor the first time, giving rise
to that vital bond that she willhave with her baby.
You write for a tip avoidsynthetic oxytocin.
(16:32):
Your brain cannot process it.
Natural oxytocin is released inpulses, whereas the artificial
stuff will hit you like a rocketand will not give you the
feelings of connectedness,happiness.
You like a rocket and will notgive you the feelings of
connectedness, happiness,euphoria, and that natural
(16:53):
oxytocin brings.
Two things I want to say.
One, I have three children.
Two were induced with thesynthetic oxytocin and the third
one I was like no, don't touchme.
I waited for labor.
I can speak from personalexperience that what you've
written resonates with me Havingthe natural oxytocin in your
body, that rush, thoseendorphins, that connectedness.
I left the hospital wanting todo it again.
I was on a high, it happened tome.
(17:14):
It wasn't my experience, it'ssomething that somebody did to
me.
So I can connect to that and Ithink about what's going on with
women here in the US.
There's so much postpartumdepression and people having
birth trauma.
There's such a high incidenceof people using our birth
providers encouraging thesynthetic oxytocin with
(17:36):
induction, so I would love foryou to elaborate on what you've
written and how you educate yourpatients or people who come to
you about the differences ofsynthetic oxytocin and natural
oxytocin and how it can affectyour labor, birth and your
postpartum period.
Speaker 2 (17:54):
In my courses I explain about the orchestra of
hormones and how it's playing.
And you know there is.
How can I say I tell them aboutthe difference between the
synthetic and the well,body-made oxytocin?
Because the difference is howcan I say?
Let me think, how can I explainthis in the best way?
(18:15):
Well, oxytocin is produced by asmall gland in the middle of
the brain.
It's released in pulses,naturally.
That's why contractions come.
That's why contractions come.
That's why contractions go.
Oxytocin, in its own ability inour sexuality, gives us an
orgasm.
It allows a certain group ofmuscles to move in a wave-like
(18:36):
motion.
That's why, when we have anorgasm, we have this kind of
feeling.
When we give birth, we have thesame kind of feeling.
It only talks to a certaingroup of muscles because
otherwise, every time whenyou're in love, you would walk
around in a wave-like motion.
I believe your boss would sayexcuse me, stephanie, if you
were a boss, what the heck iswrong with you?
(18:56):
And he would say love, I'm inlove, I'm in love.
And that's, of course, our gutfeeling, because that's our
second brain.
They found receptors, of course, on top of the uterus and
that's why, when we are in labor, the uterus, like a coffee
plunger, goes up and down.
They found receptors in ourheart.
So you know, many things in ourbirth happen through the limbic
(19:19):
system, which is the old partof the brain where, of course,
birth is in.
And the natural way of givingbirth will allow you to, first
of all, feel open and trust.
That's already essentialfeeling that you have when you
make love and that can onlyhappen when it comes internal.
And secondly, it's a hormonethat lowers anxieties.
(19:42):
It's a hormone that connectsyou.
It's also a hormone that is notonly a sexual hormone.
You know, it's like a hormonewhen we hold hands, when we hug
our friends, when we spend sometime together, we sit and enjoy
and we really feel like we'repart of the universe.
But it can only work like thiswhen given either through your
(20:04):
nose or produced by yourself,because when it goes through the
blood it doesn't have thiseffect.
Now, if it would be giventhrough your nose, because the
nose is the direct gatewaystraight away directly into the
limbic system, into your brain,nose and mouth.
But of course we don't eatoxytocin right now.
(20:25):
But in the past we used to use anasal spray.
I don't know if you ever usedthis.
It was called Cytocinone nasalspray.
We used it as a pre-overduestress test.
So we would give a couple ofyou know, hops of nasal spray
(20:46):
and then put the woman on themonitor to see what was going on
.
And we also did it in thepostnatal time.
Sometimes, when you know themilk came in and you wanted the
milk to flow, then you wouldgive a couple of nasal sprays,
like a couple of hops, andthat's it.
But, you know, then it wastaken off and because I think it
was, the dosage seemed likeokay, a bit of this or a bit
(21:08):
more, not quite sure how much itis.
Well, you know, this was adifferent time, I'm quite clear,
so I still remember it.
Let me give you a research,because I always say love is in
the air first of all, peoplethink they fall in love on first
sight, but they fall in love onfirst smell.
You know research.
What they did is they had agroup of men, and men in general
(21:29):
have less oxytocin receptorsthan women.
I think nature knows that womenat one stage will have to give
birth.
It's not the men, you know.
And men in the old days had togo hunting in the Stone Age and
life was dangerous.
Men would sometimes not comeback and so in this research
(21:49):
they gave money to like $500 toa group of men.
Half of the group of men gotnasal spray, the other half
didn't.
Then a man would walk in andwould say I'm a professional
player, give me all your money,honey, let me play.
You know, oxytocin is soamazing as a hormone.
It really gives you thisfeeling of okay, I blindly trust
(22:10):
you, I'm so in love with you.
Out of the nasal spray group, Ithink more than 90% blindly,
willingly give their money to aguy they had never seen in their
life.
And so when we say love makesblind, that's the same effect.
Coming back to the effect, sowhen you have a hundred times
more oxytocin after the birthwhich of course you have, why?
(22:34):
Because nature is smart.
So, first of all, when thebaby's out, nature wants to be
sure mom is going to be safe, soshe can birth her placenta, her
afterbirth.
So that's why you have 100times more oxytocin.
Secondly, one other effect ofoxytocin is it helps you to get
over things.
(22:54):
So when your birth was hard andyou have 100 times more
oxytocin, it still allows you tobond, fall in love with your
baby and also get a little biteasier over a harder birth.
Yeah, and for the first hour,your oxytocin level and all
other hormones are so high thatyou really feel like I call it
(23:14):
ecstasy for moms to be all right.
You're on this real hormonerush.
You feel like I can fly, youlaugh, you cry, you kiss, you do
all of it.
Or it would have come somehowthrough your nose when it is in
an IV drip.
I think it hits the brainbarrier in a different way and
has just a different effect.
However, I want to saysomething for all the moms here
(23:38):
and women that might needsomething or even might need a
C-section.
Please don't feel sad.
There is when you understandhow those hormones work.
There truly is ways how you canreconnect and fall in love,
even that you maybe have alittle bit a slower onset of it.
There is love on second sight,right, stephanie?
Speaker 1 (24:00):
yes, absolutely, me, yes, absolutely.
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(25:06):
out our Not your Average Birthcourse.
In this course, I discuss thevariations that exist in
hospital practices based onpolicies, staffing and budgets,
all of which can directly affectyour birth experience and
outcome.
I want to shift gears and talkabout the emotional and physical
(25:46):
support that partners givewhile we're in labor, and you
really go into this in your bookand you call out partners and
you tell the woman or thebirthing individuals who are
preparing for birth.
Pick somebody who's going to beable to show up for you
throughout the labor.
Right and you really go intohow partners who are going to be
there and how they can providethe emotional and physical
support.
(26:06):
So I'd like for you just totalk with us about what partners
can do and why it's soimportant.
Speaker 2 (26:14):
First of all, just a quick story, not too long.
My dad was a soldier in theGerman army and trust me, he
really was.
He became an officer.
He was very supportive, heliked kickboxing, he loved
riding motorbike races, he loveddriving car races and I think
he loved my mom.
So 1957, 1962.
(26:37):
And, of course, on the 22nd ofMay, thank you for the birthday
greetings.
And, of course, on the 22nd ofMay, thank you for the birthday
greetings.
My dad attended all threebirths in a time when no man
would come along to the birth.
So you know I had a role modelsince I was a kid, and so I tell
you, for me in the 70s and 80s,when I started off, this came
(26:57):
along, and always what partnershave their own place?
First of all, t for two and twoto tango.
And who knows the womanemotionally better than the
partner?
No one normally.
You know it's your baby.
It's like something that youcreated together, and to be at a
birth is amazing, but only, andonly if you are well prepared.
(27:19):
Otherwise you might be in shock.
The way you see the woman inlabor, the whole experience.
You can be so strong, and so Ilike partners to be involved,
because isn't it?
The worst part is if you'rejust kind of standing around
like a we call it, like a falsepenny, and you feel like you
should do something, but I'm notquite sure what to do.
(27:41):
So that's why I say partnersshould be involved from the
beginning, as soon as they feellike, okay, let's get into it,
and definitely latest after thebirth class, because they can be
a perfect I call it almosthandmaiden.
They will hold your hand, theywill breathe together with you,
they will give you compliments,they will bring your dopamine
(28:03):
you.
They will give you compliments,they will bring your dopamine
up.
They will tell you wow, you'reso amazing.
You are really, you know,fantastic.
You can do it.
And here's my hand, let's gotogether.
They will massage you, theywill offer you a drink.
Yeah, they will really comfortyou.
And it's like when you hike upa mountain.
Sometimes you feel like I can'tdo this anymore, and then
(28:25):
someone comes along and says allright, I can't walk for you,
but you and me we can walktogether.
Let's go together and, step bystep, you do.
And you know also at the end,when you have been at the birth
and you saw your baby being born, it creates also a different
feeling of wow, what a big jobthe woman has done.
(28:47):
You know, it's almost as if youkneel down in front of Mother
Nature, and I think it willoften help partners to
understand how vulnerable youare and how much support you
need for the first few weeks.
Partners that are well-preparedbecome what I call a triple P.
You know what a triple P isyour perfect pregnancy partner,
(29:13):
Partner in crime, and partnerslove it.
You know I work with expertsfrom all over the world.
They come from cultures wheremen often don't come to the
birth and they are so gratefulto have, you know, some
knowledge to come along, to feellike I'm a real part of that,
I'm important, I can dosomething, I can help, and
(29:36):
that's why I think partners areimportant.
And it can be little thingsjust handing you a drink, giving
you a hug, holding your hand,walking with you it's all these
little things that you do.
You really do that when youreally really love someone,
isn't it?
Speaker 1 (30:08):
For women who are going into labor and they don't
have a partner.
All these things that you speakof can also be given through a
mother, a friend, anyone who isthere to support you.
Speaker 2 (30:22):
Absolutely so.
It doesn't have to be apartner-partner.
It can be your best friend, itcan be your mom if she's up for
it.
Some moms are, some are not.
It can be your sister, it canbe even a doula, it can be a
midwife with visiting rights,but it has to be someone that is
(30:43):
really up for it, someone thatsays, okay, I'm committed, I'm
here to help.
I would say midwives often takethis part as well, right,
stephanie, at least in Germany.
But again, the problem is oftenbeing in the system.
You're so caught up often withbeing so busy, so many women
coming in the system.
You're so caught up often withbeing so busy, so many women
(31:04):
coming in emergencies, so thatoften you cannot give.
There is so much wantingone-to-one care that every woman
in fact would deserve.
Speaker 1 (31:14):
Yeah, it's hard working with the obstetric care
model and a midwifery care model.
Even in the event where it'ssuper busy and there's a lot
going on, patients aredelivering and going back to the
OR.
I have found in my clinicalpractice that the midwifery
model of care the midwives willbe there longer, more empathetic
(31:37):
, more patient than theobstetric model of care more
patients than the obstetricmodel of care.
Speaker 2 (31:43):
Yeah, I have to say, I think in the States there's a
big difference, where here inGermany, I have to say, it's
midwives, so the obstetric careis still midwives.
So even if you have a privatedoctor, even if a private doctor
would show up for the birth inGermany, if everything is a
normal birth, it's still themidwife that would actually do
(32:05):
the delivery, it's not thedoctor, and so the doctor will
be just standing there andthey'd say congratulations,
maybe do some sutures or examinethe baby.
When I worked in Australia, forinstance, I was very like what
is going on here.
So when the woman had a privateobstetrician, even a birth
center, the other woman wouldcome in, I would take care of
(32:27):
her.
Then I would have to ring thisprivate practitioner or
obstetrician and he would comein and then finally put the
hands on the baby and then getall the flowers and all the
glory.
I was like what?
What is that?
I mean for me?
I love to empower women andwhat I love, for instance, is
okay, I've done water birthsalready in the 90s I attended
(32:48):
them.
But when I worked in Australia,they, for instance, have done
big studies about water birth,water birth in the hospital
system is hands off.
No one is twiddling around withtheir fingers.
Nope, no matter, no, no, no oneis doing anything.
We have a big flashlight and alittle mirror that is
unbreakable.
You just check with theflashlight and I say, when I
(33:12):
started working in a birthcenter in Australia, I said to
my colleague we're out, we havea lot of power cuts here.
What the heck is going on?
So many big flashlights?
My colleague was on the floor,you are.
All I know is when there's bigflashlights everywhere usually
means power cut, and so Ilearned it was the flashlight
(33:33):
that you used for just checking,is the head out?
Great, telling the womanbreathe the baby out, and then
you would just help pick it up.
So you see, every country has alittle detail that's different,
and I know that the states havea very separate kind of system
where here, no matter where yougo, every labor ward, it's
midwives working, not nurses.
(33:54):
Nurses and not a lot.
And we don't have obstetricnurses.
We always had direct entrymidwives.
That's it Okay From thebeginning.
And by the way people, ladies,listen here comes In Germany, by
law, midwife is allowed to do anormal delivery all by herself,
(34:14):
even without a doctor.
That's why home birth and birthcenters are possible, but a
doctor cannot do a birth withoutthe presence of a midwife, and
this law is over 100 years old.
So I think that's somethingreally good to say, because when
there was a shortage ofmidwives, doctors wanted to
(34:35):
deliver babies only with nurses.
But nurses have no traininglike we have.
They know nothing about babiesbirth, all of that, and then the
midwives put out a big protestand said no, no, this law exists
and we want to keep this law.
No way that we're going tochange it, and ever since this
law has been staying with us.
(34:55):
That is a big protection formothers, babies and for midwives
.
Speaker 1 (35:00):
I love how you prefaced that, saying that this
law is a big protection formothers, babies and for midwives
.
I love how you prefaced that,saying that this lot is a big
protection for mothers, babiesand women, because it's so true.
It's so true.
I didn't know that.
That's amazing.
Speaker 2 (35:14):
I wish more places were like that Well, you know, I
wish every woman would haveaccess to wonderful midwifery
care.
I wish that every midwife wouldalso be able to create a really
good income through herwonderful work.
This is what I wish.
I wish happiness and balance onall parts.
I'll tell you what.
I also know that some of theobstetricians would wish for
(35:37):
that too, because I've workedwith many, many, and you know
many.
I mean people.
Look, I'm 62,.
I mean you.
You can't see me, but I've donethis since I'm 20.
I've worked with so many doctorshere in Berlin.
Some of them they were justyoung assistant doctors, and
many of those are now firstconsultants.
But when they meet me theyalways say got your job, we
learned so much together.
I said yeah, because when youstarted, I said you know if
(35:59):
you're really good, if you'refriendly with the midwives.
I said yeah, because when youstarted, I said you know if
you're really good, if you'refriendly with the midwives.
I said then we will allow youto do a few things that you
normally don't do.
Okay, but on the other hand,you also have to.
Let us get on with what we knowfrom our experience.
So you know, even though Iworked many times in hospitals,
I found a whole nice group ofwonderful, wonderful doctors Not
(36:22):
all of them, but a huge number.
But even nowadays, so 20 yearslater, they always say good job.
I say, come on, say it.
It was great because it wasworking together.
This is how it should be okay.
Look who you are and what youdo.
It's really working togetherfor the best outcome for mothers
and babies and families andpartners.
You are and what you do it'sreally working together for the
best outcome for mothers andbabies and families and partners
(36:44):
.
It should be the happiest dayin your life.
Yeah, really, because you know,stephanie, my saying we do
forget birthdays, but we neverforget the day of the birth.
Speaker 1 (36:55):
Yeah, and I do genuinely believe that anyone
going into birth work wants tohelp.
From what I see, a lot of themishaps and the fails come from
the system right From lack ofeducation, lack of staffing,
protocols in hospitals, at leastin the US.
The hospitals are for profit,so policies and protocols are
(37:19):
profit-based.
People go into birth work,whether it's midwives,
obstetricians wanting to do theright thing and wanting to have
all the time in the world to letwomen labor, but barriers to
care because of policies,staffing and issues that are
more systemic-based as opposedto bad practice.
Speaker 2 (37:40):
Yeah, that's sad because there's so much evidence
about that.
I mean, you know God knows howmany years every study has shown
, when women are in midwiferycare, one-to-one in their
pregnancy and during labor, theoutcome at the birth is just
much better.
Also, you know, even like, forinstance, for everything
(38:00):
afterwards I mean Germany has a.
I have to say it's kind of bothways.
For the women it's a fantasticsystem.
For the midwives it's gettingreally bad right now.
But the women can have 22consultations with the midwife
and they still go see theirdoctor.
That's all separate.
They can choose freely wherethey want to give birth and then
(38:27):
the midwife will come up to 12weeks after the birth to their
home or after some weeks to themidwife's practice.
But in the first 10 days themidwife can come once per day
for a postnatal visit.
After 10 days, 16 more visitsfor the woman.
You know the system would bewonderful.
Even a childbirth class isincluded for the woman.
All of that.
It's just that the midwives atthe moment get put down with
(38:49):
very little amount of money.
We work for very little moneyand that's the problem.
So I always tell the women thesystem is fantastic for the
women.
The problem is it's notfantastic for the midwife and
that creates a big gap.
Yeah, and that gap is gettingbigger and bigger year by year.
But yeah, for instance, I thinkthe number of women
breastfeeding, of course, inGermany is higher than in the US
(39:11):
.
But I'm not surprised if youhave to go back to work.
What?
After two, three, four weeks?
Breastfeeding is onlyestablished six to eight weeks
after your birth.
Only your postnatal time isalready up to six weeks, so you
go back in a time where you'reactually not even fully, well,
fully recovered, say you know,partially recovered.
So I find that cool, I have tosay, for such a modern country
(39:43):
it is really really bad image.
Speaker 1 (39:44):
Yeah, sorry, it's okay.
I agree with you and I thinkthat what you're saying is
reflecting in outcomes thatwe're seeing in women right now.
It just was reported that thenumber one cause of perinatal
death in women is postpartumsuicide.
That's the number one causeright now, and if you think
about all the factors that we'retalking about you think about
intrapartum care, wheresynthetic Pitocin is the
(40:05):
predominant there's high ratesof C-section, women are
reporting birth trauma, womendon't have the financial means
to stay home postpartum theseare all compounded issues that
are leading to a horrible,horrible outcome where mothers
are committing suicide, and it'salso predominantly affecting
women of color in the UnitedStates, and it's something that
(40:28):
we as a society need to worktowards, through women coming
forward and creating a spacewhere women can talk about their
stories instead of justeveryone telling them.
This is what it's supposed to belike, this is what it is.
This is how you're supposed tofeel.
This is what it's supposed tobe like.
This is what it is.
This is how you're supposed tofeel.
This is what birth is supposedto be like creating a space
where women can talk to othersand hear from other women that
I'm not alone and that thisisn't healthy.
(40:49):
And how can we move forwardtogether in creating a healthy,
safe space for us to be moms, tobe women and have healthy and
happy families?
Speaker 2 (41:00):
yeah, and I really say a fantastic job you're doing
, stephanie, really chapeau,thank you.
You know there's a couple ofthings I want to say about that.
Of course, it has never alwaysbeen like that in Germany.
It was also women that demandedthings.
Women said no, I'm not puttingup with that, I'm not doing that
.
Now I will give a story of afriend of mine that home birthed
(41:22):
in Germany and birthed a secondbaby in the States.
I will give you the short storybecause it's quite an
interesting story.
So I think what it needs iswomen to be empowered, partners
to be empowered, and alsosometimes to say no to the
system, to say is that reallynecessary?
Proof, to me it's reallynecessary.
I mean, I know people will sayyou're 40 years old, you have to
(41:43):
have an induction at.
You know, once you hit 40 weeks, otherwise you kill your baby.
Then I would say, okay, show methe scientific, really, show me
the research that this is true.
Show me a proven research, notjust a lame duck.
Show it to me.
Like, I have a client, well, hada client.
She was 55 when she waspregnant.
(42:04):
Of course she had a donor egg.
Yeah, well, not allowed inGermany, she did it in LA.
So thanks to the US, and shewent back to Germany.
Then she came to me and saidI'm 55 and I want a natural
birth.
I said great, you're talking tothe right person.
Listen, everyone will tell youyou're 55.
(42:32):
You should have a C-section.
I said I'm not telling you this, but anyhow.
So my client went 40 plus threeand I said to her once you hit
40 weeks, the pressure's goingto be full on.
So you know, she said yes to aninduction at, I think, 40 plus
3.
She said yes to an inductionbecause the pressure was getting
on.
I think there's so littleresearch about women like you.
Anyhow, they induced hermechanically.
(42:55):
She ruptured her membranespontaneously, then they left
her alone and then she birthedher lovely daughter 12 hours
later.
Yay really.
But you know, the thing is,women have to kind of stand up
for their rights when coming tolabor.
So my first step is alwayseducate yourself, find a
(43:18):
like-minded community, have alook, not every hospital or
every doctor is going to be bad.
There's also, of course, a fewpeople everywhere, also in the
States, that would say well,enough is enough.
And also advocate for thehealth of the whole nation,
because if you have such badtrauma that you know the suicide
rate is going up.
(43:39):
Post-traumatic depression isgoing up.
It has a huge impact on how weform societies, on how we
actually live our life, and whenyou look into violence in
societies, hdhs, whatever it is,all the different things you
can look at it now from allangles.
And I have to say, if you wanta healthy, happy society that is
(44:00):
healthy from the base up to thetop, well you have to start the
pregnancy, birth and the timeafter that is the very beginning
and it starts with a positivebirth experience and it starts
with happy hormones.
It starts with good bonding, itstarts with that and if a
society does not understand that, well then the society needs a
(44:22):
little bit more education.
That's really my opinion.
You have a quote in your book.
Speaker 1 (44:28):
That resonates exactly with what we're talking
about.
Giving birth should be yourgreatest achievement, not your
greatest fear, written by janeweidman, who's the founder of
Birth Buddy, empowering woman.
For some reason, there's beenthis transition where birth is
feared and not revered, and weshould be walking away stronger,
(44:50):
more empowered, like I just did, that I can do anything.
Speaker 2 (44:54):
I agree.
I had a lovely client fromSouth Africa who was 14 years
old First baby Came to Germany.
Well, you know, moving from onecountry to another when you're
highly pregnant and almost readyto give birth and finding a
class, this is super stressful.
But you know, she took my classwith her husband and she
(45:14):
birthed her baby, I think aboutfour or five weeks later, and
she came back to me and she saidI really have to say my birth
was wild, but I never felt sopowerful in all my life.
And I said well done, lori.
Speaker 1 (45:30):
That's exactly how every woman should feel talk to
us a little bit about right now.
You're not at bedside, you'renot helping women in birth.
You have a bigger goal.
(45:50):
You have your birth courses,you have your book, you're
speaking, you're educating,bringing your message about
midwifery model of care andwoman empowerment and making
waves.
Tell us a little bit about whatyou're doing now and how that
is making an impact in the birthcommunity more of a global
impact.
Speaker 2 (46:09):
Yeah, thanks for that great question.
Well, right now I talk abouttopics.
First of all, I have differenttopics, so I talk about topics
like how can we form a healthybaby inside the womb, being
healthy ourselves on all levels,because, as I said to you,
everything starts in the womb.
(46:30):
That's our first classroom, soI really want to educate people
more about the right supplements, nutrition, exercise, I mean.
For me, the model is reallylike a pyramid.
The bottom is your body,everything with the body
Exercise, sleep, relaxation,acupuncture, massages, name it.
(46:50):
Next, level up, your emotionwho are you in the context of
the people around you?
Next level up is your mindsetwhat are you telling yourself
when no one is listening?
And, of course, top level, it'sthe cherry on the top your
spiritual belief.
So we are going constantly inwaves through all levels, and
all levels support each other.
(47:11):
So that's something I talkabout, but I also talk about
topics like female leadershipand giving birth.
How are these things connected?
Because I think in the modernworld, we need a different model
.
Sorry, the male model has doneit for me.
Thanks and no thanks.
I think it's time for femaleleadership.
And when we look into femaleleadership, well, I think you
(47:34):
know, birth, giving birth,having babies, having a family
must have some kind of place,must have some room.
Yeah, we don't want to go onlike just elbows out.
Career it's fine to have acareer, there's nothing wrong
with that.
But you know, you want to beable to have a career and a baby
and a family, and you know wewant women to lead in a female
(47:57):
way, not in what I call cover upstyle.
Yeah, I do not like these malewomen because they're not doing
female leadership.
So it's this kind of topic Italk about.
I also talk, of course, aboutout of trauma back into
happiness, because that is a bigtopic as well.
So I have different topics andI go to different places and
(48:17):
speak and I have big plans.
I would love to give a TED Talk, I will write another book, but
right now, in the next coupleof weeks, I go to the States and
I talk to many people that Imeet, but in London I'm going to
speak in a Global Women'sSummit about those topics.
Then in October you know it'sdifferent places where I go, but
(48:41):
you know the world is full ofboys.
Of course, on Instagram, I talkabout it.
I talk about it some on YouTube, but I can't tell you.
I think you know, at the momentwe live in a time where you
have information overload, can Isay, especially with AI, now
everyone is going to produce somuch content, but it doesn't
mean people don't produce wisdom.
(49:02):
So I always tell my communities, when I teach them online or
offline and I teach online oroffline really both styles that
you have to find yourself acouple of good experts and you
have to find yourself acommunity, because just looking
at something on Instagram is notgoing to do it.
(49:24):
You need to be able to get realanswers, and real answers are
not just from a one ofexperience.
You need someone that has abroad experience.
I love mom's stories, don't getme wrong, and I share many of
those with my community, but theother hand is it has two things
.
Okay, stephanie, and I thinkyou will agree Once you've been
(49:46):
at hundreds of thousands ofbirths, you really get a deep
insight on how birth works.
Also the problems that canarrive and the solutions that
you need.
Just because you drive a cardoesn't make you a mechanic or
an engineer, and even I say, yes, I love your story when you
gave birth to one, two or threebabies, but still, what you tell
(50:11):
me is your experience at yourbirth.
It makes you an expert on yourbirths, but it doesn't make you
an expert on generallyeverything around birth.
Because why on earth would Ihave spent 42 years digging
around, learning, trying out,testing things?
Okay, let's try that.
(50:32):
Okay, that's not right.
Okay, let's try that.
And you know, that's what I'msaying.
You can't read experience andyou can't buy it and you can't
replace it.
It is something that, even thatI love all modern technology,
but you know the amount ofhundreds of thousands of hours
sitting with a woman through herbirth observing this, observing
(50:56):
that the smell, the sound, thechange in face, the smell of,
like, the change of how she acts, how she talks, everything.
That's something you can trulyonly learn through experience
and that makes you a real expert.
And so my advice is to allthose women out there share your
(51:19):
stories, talk about what workedfor you, but also truly find
yourself an expert you trust,where you feel, hey, I have a
voice, I'm heard and I can ask aquestion.
And then this person mightthink dig in her big birth
hopper of God knows how manybirths, god knows how many women
(51:41):
and experience.
Should we pull out somethingwhere she says, yeah right, I
know something and if not, I'lldig even deeper?
That is my advice.
You thought that was amazingadvice.
(52:04):
It took me 42 years, from 20 to62.
I have to laugh.
You know, when I was young Ihad a teeth over 60, in her 60s
with gray hair, but she's reallyold.
And now I think, yeah right,jutta, you know, put the finger
(52:26):
on your own nose, how old areyou?
Oh, yeah, right, 62.
And you know, all my clients,of course, are in their 30s,
some are in their 40s.
But you know, when I haveinterns that think about
becoming midwives in their 20s,I always say, gosh, I must look
really old to you.
But don't worry, I swing mylegs because I'm dynamic
(52:46):
pregnancy yoga and, trust me,I'll have more power.
But you know, I have to say andI want to say that to all of
you don't let people stop youfrom feeling good, right.
Don't let people stop you fromfinding help if you need Okay,
if there's a problem.
I met a woman here in my yogaclass and she came for a
(53:07):
one-to-one consultation.
She's only 13 weeks and when Istarted talking to her she got
really kind of very strange andI thought what the heck is going
on here.
Then she burst out into tearsand she said my friend gave
birth and I said yeah, and thenshe said my friend killed
herself.
(53:28):
You know, it was her bestfriend.
And I said to her I am so, sosorry.
That should really never, never, ever happen, never.
You know, that is terrible.
I was so, was so upset, youknow, and then of course there's
so much going on.
But, yeah, so you know, that'swhy I say if any of you needs
(53:50):
help, if any of you feels down,please find help.
And if any of your friendslooks, you know, unhappy in the
postnatal period, can't get outof bed, is crying or acts
strangely, do not hesitate, goand get help.
Please don't let women suffer,don't let them go down that
route.
Speaker 1 (54:10):
That is so horrible, honestly, For women who are
listening to the episode andthey want to learn more about
you and your work.
How can they find you?
Speaker 2 (54:20):
You can find me everywhere.
You can find me on LinkedInwith my name that you know.
Stephanie will post JuttaWohlbach.
You can find me on Instagram.
You find me well with a verysmall YouTube channel, midwife,
and you can find me onelementsofbirthde.
But if you Google me, you willalways come out with all
(54:44):
information my email, myWhatsApp number.
Please don't call me threeo'clock in the morning.
I love to sleep, but peoplehave.
You know.
I have a question.
My answer was three o'clock inthe morning.
I have a question too.
That's how people can connectwith me.
You can always get in touchwith me through email.
Yeah, of those channels, andyou know, of course, I have a
(55:07):
book, I have many things andalso I work.
Really I love working withpeople from all over the world
and I usually find a solution,even if you live in a time zone
that is not mine, because Itravel a lot.
So I would love you to get intouch with me.
Speaker 1 (55:23):
If anyone is interested in learning more
about Utah, your work and whatyou're doing and the difference
that you're making, reach out,because this has been a fabulous
conversation.
I've learned so much in mypractice from your book Happy
Birthing Days A Midwife's Secretto a Joyful, safe and Happy
Birth, and really for maternalhealth care workers working in
(55:44):
medical complexes it's a greatread just to take the medical
side apart and really bring inthe holistic, natural, bring it
back to what birth really is.
Speaker 2 (55:55):
Yeah, a joyful moment .
That's what it should be.
Forgettable, that's really whatit should be.
Well, thanks, stephanie.
Thanks so much for having me asa guest.
I'm so glad we met Me too.
We meet in person one day, Iknow that'd be fabulous.
Speaker 1 (56:15):
I would love that.
Speaker 2 (56:16):
Yeah, I think it will happen.
Maybe not in the next two weeks, but, yeah, I think we'll stay
in touch and we'll meet.
Then we have a nice cup ofcoffee and a chat.
Yeah, okay, that sounds perfect.
I love that.
Thanks everyone, and thank youso much.
Speaker 1 (56:42):
Hey there, amazing listeners.
If you love what we do and wantto see our podcast grow, we
need your help.
By making a donation, you'll besupporting us and bringing you
even more great content.
I truly believe creating thisspace for women all across the
globe to share their story willallow us to collectively heal,
grow and become more empoweredin the space that we deserve to
(57:06):
be Motherhood, womanhood andhowever that looks and feels for
each and every one of us.
If you can head over to supportus today, there's a link in the
bio to support the podcast.
Every contribution, big orsmall, will make a huge
difference.
From the bottom of my heart,thank you for being a part of
this journey.
(57:26):
Be sure to check out our socialmedia.
All links are provided in theepisode description.
We're excited to have you here.
Please give us a follow If youor someone you know would like
to be a guest on the show, reachout to us via email at info at
maternalwealthcom.
And remember stay healthy,embrace your power and you got
(57:49):
this.
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