Dr Jackie Greene: Called by God, Not by Culture

Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
My illustrious sister , dynamic, powerful, best female
preacher on earth.

Speaker 2 (00:06):
I feel very, very privileged to have made it to
Mavericks on the mic.
Thank y'all for having me.

Speaker 3 (00:11):
Can I start off by just saying we would like you to
just check your brother on acouple of things.

Speaker 2 (00:16):
Let's check, Mic check.
What made me change from beinga girl that was so insecure that
couldn't get over the realitythat I felt rejected because my
daddy left.
That got me over the twochemicals in my hair, taking all
my hair out.
What?

Speaker 3 (00:29):
do you think about when you think that Norman is
doing all of this?

Speaker 2 (00:34):
The most brilliant person I know.

Speaker 4 (00:36):
Things were starting to pop off for Travis and he got
had got invited to, uh, to, Ithink it was a Potter's house,
and he called you backstagebecause he was nervous.

Speaker 2 (00:47):
You better pick up that guitar, put that little
pick in your hand and go outthere and do the thing you were
created for.
What's?

Speaker 4 (01:14):
up everybody.
Welcome to another episode ofMavericks.
On the Mic, I'm JJ.

Speaker 1 (01:17):
I'm EJ, I'm Norman and today we have a very special
guest, my favorite guest of alltime.
We grew up together.
Together, I've known her aslong as she's been alive and she
is my illustrious sister, thedynamic, powerful, best female
preacher on earth hey guyswhat's up?

Speaker 4 (01:40):
thanks y'all for having me.

Speaker 2 (01:43):
My name is jackie and , um, I feel very, very
privileged to have made it tomavericks on the.
My name is Jackie and I feelvery, very privileged to have
made it to Mavericks on the mic.

Speaker 4 (01:50):
Yeah, we were talking about it.
The real basement.
I was like we have to have yoursister.
The real basement,Non-negotiable.

Speaker 3 (01:57):
We're not doing that.
This is gonna be a good one.
Oh my God, this is going to begreat.
Can I start off by just sayingwe would like you to just check
your brother on a couple ofthings.

Speaker 2 (02:07):
Let's check, might check.

Speaker 3 (02:10):
That face is good Okay.

Speaker 1 (02:13):
I hear you loud and clear there's no payday was
yesterday.

Speaker 3 (02:15):
What is it Payday?

Speaker 2 (02:16):
I know.

Speaker 1 (02:17):
I hear you loud and clear.

Speaker 3 (02:19):
Now I'm seeing the eyes.
No, but I do think.
You know I'm curious and thisis just my own little like.
You came up with him, I did.
You know him.
He's made quite an impact inthe world, but you're still a
little sis praying for him,looking out for him.
Like, what do you look at andthink about when you think that
Norman is doing all of this?

Speaker 2 (02:40):
When I think of Norman, the first thing I think
about it is probably, no, notprobably the most brilliant
person.
I know.
That's first um.
A lot comes in mind in terms ofhaving seen him um go through
the maturation of the little boywho laid on the floor, rolled
up him, uh, he was just alwaysvery different.

(03:01):
To see him do what he's doingis not a shock, because I think
the level of brilliance, um, hisability to go against the grain
has always been a thing, um.
But what I will say to thisaudience and to you all that I
don't feel that most people know, is we haven't really seen the
true impact that he's supposedto make wow, what do you mean?

(03:21):
by that.
I feel that he has made a markas it pertains to music, but if
you were, my husband talkedabout it best.
It's almost like you don't knowthe truth of what could be
because you have left so much onthe table.
He actually is a preacher, heis a prophet and it's been clear
since we were four.
He has the ability to make anygroup of people follow him

(03:44):
because of how strongly hebelieves what he believes and I
believe that he takes the timeto like, really lean into that
and not be afraid of it, not runfrom the true call.
I don't think that what we'veseen, as it pertains to maverick
city, music or any arena, willcome close to the impact that
he'll make in his actual callwow, what do you think about
that?
not close close.

Speaker 1 (04:05):
I've told you this already.

Speaker 4 (04:06):
I just like hearing it.
We just want to hear it.

Speaker 1 (04:08):
I mean, I told you I'm not going to do what we're
doing that much longer.
I'm supposed to be a pastor,it's for you.

Speaker 2 (04:14):
But I want to ask you back when you say that you're
not going to do it much longer,how do you know how much longer?

Speaker 1 (04:19):
I have.
I know I'm on borrowed time.
You know I'm on very borrowedtime.
I think along the way on thejourney, I do think JJ became an
assignment for me, a directassignment.
I think there were some thingsthat, from just a personality
standpoint, there are seasonswith people and I think that all

(04:50):
things work together for thegood of those that love the Lord
and are called according to hispurpose.
I think that I may have branchedoff into a season that wasn't
ordained, but that he hasallowed me to really make impact
and that through that it was anordained season for JJ and that
through that, it was anordained season for JJ and he's
using me to kind of chop theweeds, put some infrastructure

(05:12):
in order and then go off and dowhat I'm supposed to be doing
with the people I'm supposed tobe doing it.
At the same time, I'm learningleadership skills I didn't have.
I'm building relationships Ididn't have.
I have an understanding formusic ministry I wouldn't have
otherwise had.
I have an understanding forhigh-level business that I
wouldn't have otherwise had, andI think it's caused some

(05:35):
difficulties, but I think it'sdefinitely caused some positives
that I'll take through lifeforever.
I think that'll make me abetter pastor than I otherwise
would have been.

Speaker 4 (05:41):
What does a Norman Jumphy-led church look like?

Speaker 1 (05:45):
Radical baby Radical honest would have been what is,
uh, what is a norman junkie ledchurch?
Look like radical baby radicalhonest.
Uh, uh, outside the box.
It's not about four walls, it'sabout the people, you know.
I mean, I, I'm anon-traditional person.
Uh, in every essence, I have avery unique testimony, uh, one
that is currently still beingwritten.

(06:05):
You know what I mean.
I think my wife will play ahuge role in any ministry that I
have.
Her testimony is wild as theycome.
I just think we're different.
I think everybody says that.
I think I look into ministryand I see a lot of and this is
going to sound like what itsounds like I see a lot of

(06:27):
people God has raised up becauseI took too long.
I do, I do, I do, but it's notme.
And so we wrestle with thetension by saying later Now we
wrestle with the tension bysaying I still see fruit in the
current season.

Speaker 2 (06:43):
Can you still see fruit in the current season and
still pivot?
Because you say so, though,absolutely Okay.
I mean even a dodge, becausethe connotation, or I would say
the implication, of what you'resaying is as long as fruit is
there, I stay.

Speaker 1 (06:55):
No, it's not.
I've loved fruitful seasonsbefore.
I'll do it again.
Okay For sure, a good treecan't bear bad fruit, so I'm
always gonna bear fruit.
It may not be the fruit hewants in that season.
I might be an apple tree when Ineed to be a pear tree, you
know I mean.
So it's time, it's time, it'sdefinitely time to move.
I feel it the grace has liftedfor sure.

(07:15):
I told you this.
You got on my case.
You got on my case the lasttime I said this on the podcast.
Oh, it bothers them.

Speaker 2 (07:21):
It bothers, jay-z, I don.

Speaker 1 (07:22):
It bothers, jason?
I don't think it bothers himTalk to me about why I don't
think it bothers me it does.

Speaker 4 (07:28):
Why do you say that?
Because I don't.

Speaker 1 (07:29):
I think because we're best friends.
I never talked to you deeplyabout that.
I think it shocked you thefirst time I said it.

Speaker 4 (07:36):
I think what shocked me was how heavy it, how heavy
you carry that burden.
You carry that burden because I, like, like you, know how many
people you meet in this industry.
You're like, yeah, I'm gonnastart a church but it's like
when you talk about it, it'slike it's like crippling, it's
like this is what this is mycalling and so for me I'm like
well dang.

Speaker 2 (07:57):
When you say well dang, you feel like it means the
departure no, I, it's not eventhat.

Speaker 4 (08:03):
It's just more or less like wow, that the reality
of that is sort of like thisdoesn't feel like a oh and the
sweet by and by, like this feelsimminent, right.
So it's just more or less justlike the mentality of being
ready for at the at the drop ofa hat, to be ready for that.
You know what I mean, um, butno, it's not.

(08:24):
I don't feel, man, I don't, hecan't do that, it's not like
that.
I want him to run for all therun into all the things god has
for him, you know, full stop.

Speaker 1 (08:34):
So but I see it, I feel it, he's put it, he's put
it on their hearts and theydon't know it.
You know, I'm saying I, I senseit.
Like all of the executives,they want to run a company that
I don't have to come to work.

Speaker 3 (08:48):
I think a big.
I mean, I think yes, but Ithink it's, and we've talked
about this.
I, I and the other executiveseven that came on in the past
year want, want to help liftburdens and loads.
That was a very big thing, Ithink.
When Norman approached us, itwas, hey, this is what God can

(09:10):
do for you and your legacy andyour children and all of that.
But for me, I was alwaysinterested in knowing this would
help him.
Could I, could bless him like Icould.
Actually, you know, I, I can bea part of one hour less of him
worrying because I don't thinkpeople understand and I know

(09:31):
this episode is not even aboutthis necessarily but I, I don't
think people fully understandthe weight that norman carries,
like he carries it all day,every day.
If, if it's payroll for thepeople, it's on him.
If it's a tour, it's on him.
If it's the music getting outand working like in the
marketplace, it's on him.
And he has, you know, forbetter or worse, carried that

(09:53):
weight and people in, you know,zimbabwe don't realize that
they're listening to some ofthese songs because he stayed up
until 3 am you know, I really.

Speaker 2 (10:04):
I mean, although that seems heroic, I don't think
it's supposed to be that wayit's not and that's what I think
.
That's my, that's right, that'smy burden is that we were not
created to carry that level ofweight, and when you do, it will
crush you.
And so how do we shift?
How do we get to a positionthat we find a level of
dependency where we stillfulfill, will we fulfill, call,

(10:26):
but we're not doing it in ourown might or strength.
That's right, because that'swhere the sweet spot is, that's
where the life more abundantly,that's where the life of
fulfillment truly is found.
And so I think that's why mypress, for it would be for you,
or for you, or for him, wouldalways be around.
How do I continue to pray, oreven partner with the Lord for
his will to be done in a waythat you find dependency, not in

(10:49):
my own might and strength tohold it, because it'll crush you
, that's right.

Speaker 1 (10:53):
I'm telling y'all I I told JJ, I think I told JJ the
other day or maybe I told EJwhat I see today, the way we
operate today it is, and to sayI think when people think about
dependency on God, they thinkit's like you're running and you
don't get weary, you walk butyou don't faint, you're still

(11:14):
running, brother.

Speaker 2 (11:16):
You're still walking, you know what I'm saying.

Speaker 1 (11:19):
You just don't get weary.
You know what I'm saying.
That is the difference peoplelike a lot of times.
When I first got in theministry and I first got into
doing these things, it wasalways excuse making around to
be complacent and lazy.
It's what I saw.
It's a lot of.
I didn't make it in corporateamerica no disrespect to nobody

(11:41):
in ministry.
I didn't make it in corporateamerica.
I'll cover.
You shouldn't be yelling at me.
You shouldn't be puttingexpectations on me.
You shouldn't be noaccountability on me.
I should have to work hard, godgoing to make it happen.
Faith without works is dead man.
And I bring the same excellenceand I believe we should bring
the same excellence to God thatwe bring to everything Now, in

(12:02):
that when you do havehigh-achieving people, when you
do have people that have thisstandard of excellence or that
struggle with perfectionism orthey struggle with whatever it
is, or putting a lot of weighton themselves, they can find
themselves doing things for God,but not with God.
That's so good, you know whatI'm saying.
When you get into the game ofdoing things for God but not
with God, then you know that'swhen you get crushed under the

(12:25):
weight.

Speaker 2 (12:26):
Because you have pastors.
The same way.

Speaker 1 (12:28):
It's less burnout, because when you talk about
high-teaming people, burnout isso far off.
For you to burn out doing music, it will take a lot.
For me to burn out solvingproblems, it's going to take a
lot, a lot, a lot of problems.
It ain't no base level,probably it's so.
I don't.
Burnout is a term for peoplethat are uninspired, but it

(12:52):
generally is.
If you're not inspired by whatyou do, you're gonna burn out
well, some people burn outbecause of doing something too
long.
I mean, I think I feel you, butI generally attribute it from a
leadership standpoint that ifone of our uh people that
partner with us in what we docame to me and said you know
what, man, I'm just burnt outwith social media, this means I
don't want to do socials, nomore.

Speaker 2 (13:12):
I don't consider that as I'm burnt out Meaning you
don't have capacity to do itExactly.

Speaker 1 (13:17):
I don't consider that burnt out as a person.
I'm burnt out with this task,like we were talking about a
young lady.
She does a specific task in ourorganization.
She's just not inspired to domore.
She's really not in her sweetspot.

Speaker 2 (13:29):
I was just about to say she's probably not in her
actual lane.

Speaker 1 (13:32):
She's not in her sweet spot.
There are certain things wecould do from a nepotism
standpoint to alleviate whatshe's feeling, but it's just not
.
We have to partner with God onwhat we do, because when you are
, I don't want to use the wordhigh achievement, I want to use

(13:52):
something that's not.
That's not like puffing up orpride.

Speaker 3 (13:55):
Yeah, I get what you're saying, you know there
are people with like personalitytypes.
That just that, motivated,motivated.

Speaker 1 (14:01):
I know people have connotation to say what are you
trying to say?
I'm not, I don't have, I'm nottrying to give a connotation,
it's just a personality type,type A, whatever you want to
call it.
But they have to be verycognizant of who's in charge and
not just the result.

Speaker 2 (14:17):
And the why.

Speaker 1 (14:20):
The why is secondary to me, to who's in charge.
I used to focus on the why andyou can get the result why
you're looking for.
So, for instance, man, we aboutto go there I was talking to PT
, right, and we was talkingabout tour.

(14:41):
He had came to Atlanta show andhe had shared with me, when the
show was over, that I didn'tthank God, I didn't thank God at
all for the show.
Like I said, man, we did itLike, look, woo-da-woo-da-woo,
my why was to fill arenas withpeople worshiping God.
But I was my why, that was mywhy.

(15:02):
But I didn't care, I didn't askhim.
Yo, you know, is that what youwant?
Like you want that was my why.

Speaker 2 (15:12):
But I think the thing that I'm combating with in
terms of the why is, when youknow who's boss, the why is
attached to who's boss?

Speaker 1 (15:18):
So we're certainly not saying the same thing.
That's what I was saying,because your, why can't?

Speaker 2 (15:21):
be detached from the boss.

Speaker 1 (15:22):
Exactly that's what I was saying, that if who's it?
That's why I'm saying, firstand foremost, who's in charge?
Because you can have a God-ledwhy you go up to anybody and say
, man, my goal is to fill arenaswith people worshiping God,
getting saved.
You know, people get savednight after night, after night
after night after night.

Speaker 2 (15:38):
But the truth of what you're saying is a lie, Because
that's generally not theperson's why.
They might put that as aforefront or the cover, but
underneath it it's a purpose forwhy they want to fill the arena
.
That was my genuine why.
Okay, so when you say that andyou say that you didn't give God
thanks if it was just a.
So why do you want to fill thearena?
It's like what is the purpose Iwant?

Speaker 1 (15:59):
the people to get saved.
Okay, but this is the thing.
It's like this.
You remember the John Piperthing I the John Piper thing, I
mean what you remember, the onewhere it was like the people got
to heaven and then he went upto them and one of them was a
pastor, but he was supposed tobe an accountant, and one of
them was an accountant and hewas supposed to be a pastor.
Sure, okay, so your why can begenuine and it can be genuine.

Speaker 2 (16:22):
No, I'm not saying that, but I'm saying to me.
But I'm saying to me if God isactually Alpha Omega, he is
Adonai, which means he's Lord,which means he calls a shot my
why cannot be detached from whathe wants.

Speaker 1 (16:36):
No, I think you missed what I'm saying.
I'm saying people can have whysthat are attached for him, but
for him you can have a why forGod that's detached for him.

Speaker 3 (16:49):
I don't really understand you mean for your own
ambition.

Speaker 1 (16:50):
No, like for my own ambition.
I can want to fill a churchfull of people.

Speaker 2 (16:56):
But that to me still is diverting from who is boss or
who is Lord.

Speaker 1 (17:03):
I can want to fill a church full of people for him.

Speaker 2 (17:04):
But again.
So, for instance, I'll give youan example my wife,
specifically, is to bring God'sglory right.
Okay, Meaning I don't get todictate how I bring him glory.
If my desire is to bring himglory, that means I have to do
what he's actually desiring,what his instruction is, and
that's the only way I fulfillglory.
So I can't decide oh, I mean, Ijust want to go sit in a chair
Like oh, I mean what I'm eatingand sleeping.

Speaker 1 (17:26):
We're not disagreeing .
The reason why I'm on thispoint is so that people don't
think Just start.

Speaker 2 (17:31):
No, no, I don't yeah, no, no.

Speaker 1 (17:33):
I don't want people to think that because you do
things for God and you feelgenuine, oh, yeah, yeah, yeah,
like you feel that you can stillbe off.
Yeah, you feel genuine, youfeel passionate, okay,
compassionate.
There is no, you don't feel,you have no ulterior motive.
You ain't trying to feelimportant, you ain't trying to
like, there's just, they're justin the wrong profession.

Speaker 2 (17:57):
Like literally they're in the wrong profession.
But I would still.
I would fight back on thereality that they got to the
wrong profession somehow.
But but there was a diversionfrom him being out.

Speaker 1 (18:04):
But those things, those things don't have to be
monumental.
It could be, it could be.
I want to be like my mama.

Speaker 2 (18:09):
It could be something , and to me, that still places
an idol above him being.

Speaker 4 (18:13):
Lord, yeah, I like what you're saying.

Speaker 1 (18:17):
Yes, the reason why this is good is because this is
a rampant problem in church.

Speaker 2 (18:21):
For sure.
That's why I'm hitting it sohard.

Speaker 1 (18:24):
Because there are things we don't see as bad, like
wanting to be like your mama.
Nobody sees that as somethingthat's an idol before God,
absolutely.
That's why I'm trying to keepyou here is because it's like,
as people listening, they'rethinking that, oh, he want the
Philarenas to look important, hewant the Philarenas to because
but it can be admirable ifyou'll be wrong.

Speaker 3 (18:45):
He want the Philarenas to make money.
That's good.

Speaker 1 (18:46):
People don't need these super negative connotation
motives for your actions to besinful.

Speaker 2 (18:54):
Right, that's right or not?
Well, yeah, it is sinful.

Speaker 1 (18:58):
I've cited what he wants it don't need to be
something like oh, my God itain't got to be, it's simple.
Saul saying was simple hey man,look bro, I ain't giving up
this title.

Speaker 2 (19:11):
I look good.

Speaker 1 (19:13):
You going to make Sean look.
He ain't going to screw anotherchick, he ain't going to kill
his best friend, he ain't do theDavid thing, but David Hart was
still for God.
That's what I mean.
It's like, if you compare Sauland David today, we ain't
canceling Saul.
You know what I'm saying?
Nobody, we would be like ain'tnothing wrong with that?
Ain't nothing wrong with that?

Speaker 4 (19:34):
I like the way she said it, because David knew who
his boss was.

Speaker 1 (19:37):
David knew who his boss was, saul didn't.
But if you look at them throughman's eyes, everybody would say
David is a no good dirty dog,he don't deserve to be a pastor,
he don't deserve to lead nobody.
And they would uplift Saul.
They wouldn't even ask Saul tostep down.
What you mean?
You need to step down, the manjust want to.
And I'll even add that.

Speaker 2 (19:56):
The another thing to add to this conversation is you
can start pure in that when theycall Saul, he was hiding
amongst, like he didn't evenwant to be in position.
He started humble, he didn'tstart.
You know, pompous and it's allabout my name and I gotta look
good.
And so you really do have to becareful, season over season,
like day by day, to make sure,like father, thy kingdom come,

(20:19):
thou will be done.
Like I am still waking up everyday, like father, whether
whether I'm talking, whether I'mon a podcast, whether I'm
mothering, I still have toensure that I am making sure
that you are seated on my heartas Lord and that is lived out in
your actions.
Like people can see who's boss.

Speaker 1 (20:34):
They can.
That's good, and that's thereason why this is center is
because one of the things in ourrelationship that's keen is
that, most, when you look atmost people that live a life
like how we live, life, our lifethat's devoted to God, a life
that's for him, that everythingyou do is ministry-based.

(20:55):
A lot of people in a lot ofchurches have a job God doesn't
desire, doesn't have.
Wow, a lot of people in a lotof churches have a lot of people
not in church and they'reworking in the world, making
more money they can count,should be in the church, and
though that's the issue is thatsome people are working for god,

(21:20):
for the right reason, but notwith them, and that's difficult
to reconcile, that's difficultto see, that's difficult to see,
but they know, they know.

Speaker 2 (21:31):
Oh yeah, they know.

Speaker 1 (21:33):
They know it's a cover, they know because there's
still this emptiness, there'sstill this unfulfilled thing
they have.
And I remember when I was atchurch, you know we would always
be at church and I used toalways ask Jackie and them I was
like why do the same peoplecome to the altar every week,
like every time?
Be a church next to ours, askJackie and them, I'm like why do
you say people come to thealtar every week, every, every
time, like you don't know?

(21:54):
That's a good question.

Speaker 2 (21:55):
I actually and I'll be honest that that question
troubled me for a long time,because I really am about true
transformation.
I think that people do thatover and over again because they
believe that what's found atthe altar can't be found in
their own room, that what wasfound at the altar in the
presence of their pastor theydon't have access to.
That.
He didn't rip the veil from topto bottom to give them access

(22:16):
also to come, Like literally,not afraid, but literally come
before him and get the samething.
One thing that I can say andit's one of the reasons I've
kind of given my heart to it ismany people tell you like you're
supposed to be a woman of theword, You're supposed to be a
man of God, You're supposed tobe a woman of fasting, You're
supposed to live this life wherehe's Adonai and they don't know
how.
And I do feel called, and itprobably is like the educator

(22:37):
and teacher in me.
You have to show people how,and I don't just do that by what
I say, I should do it also byhow I live.
So I've invited women to likeno, this is how I read the Bible
, this is how I, when I'm upsetwith my husband, I make a
decision to not just throwanything out my mouth.
I literally like I will go toprayer or I'll just go to the
bathroom.
I might cry for a moment andjust process.

(22:58):
I'm telling them stories likethat so they have another
reference.
But if you don't ever showpeople how, it's hard to hold
them accountable for whatthey're supposed to do.

Speaker 3 (23:07):
You know, so many times, though I feel like,
especially within blackChristian church space,
historically, you haven't had todo all that in order to lead.
That's true.
You just needed to becharismatic, that's true.
You know what I mean?
You just, yeah, it was a verylow yeah.
And then when we saw people whowere charismatic and educated
or charismatic and compassionate, that's when we said, oh,

(23:29):
they're incredible.
But it was like sometimes thebarrier to entry was really low
and as long as you could likelook the part, it was enough.
And so then, when you hadpeople trying to be equipped,
discipled, that wasn't a focusin a lot of those church
communities.
So you really have not justbeen teaching these women but
discipling them in the way right, I mean even down to the books

(23:50):
and the conferences andeverything.
We'll get to that.

Speaker 2 (23:58):
But you are really walking with women to disciple
them in a way that they may nothave gotten that otherwise.
Because the truth of what Ifeel that references back to the
altar, is it's a form ofgodliness.
If you don't have discipleshipat the base, if you don't have a
time of living this out notjust Sunday, but Monday through
Saturday, you have the form ofgodliness but you're denying the
power thereof.
You're like the very essence ofwhat made me change from being
a girl that was so insecure thatcouldn't get over the reality

(24:21):
that I felt rejected because mydaddy left.
That got me over the twochemicals in my hair taking all
my hair out.
None of that would havehappened without the
sanctification process thathappened in my Monday through
Saturday.
It wasn't on a platform, itwasn't at somebody's altar.
I got the gift of the HolySpirit sitting in a small town
called Davisboro, georgia.
I asked a question to my momhow do you receive the gift?

(24:42):
She said it was a gift by faith, and I believed and I took him
at his word because somebody waswilling to say that it wasn't
all these things that you heardabout.
It was a thing by faith thatyou could release yourself to
receive, and I do believe thatmost of these things that we
allow, that many people aremissing in their public
demonstration in terms ofcharacter and stuff, is because

(25:03):
they deny private devotion, theydeny getting around a table
where there are actually realpeople living it that can show
them like.
No, you break the word downlike this this is how you, mommy
, this is how you parent.
All of those things I do reallyfeel like is missing from the
body current day, and I dobelieve it's what the people of
today are crying out for.

Speaker 3 (25:24):
Do you feel like there's a like that we are?
I'm trying to think about thebook.
It's almost like.
Sometimes I feel like, asChristians, we are so eager to
get like to consume the stuff.
It's almost like junk food orbinge eating, just so that we
can say that we ate it Like youknow, go to the conference, buy
the book, sign up for the thingand then, to your point, form of

(25:45):
godliness, you leave that.
Or like looking at the mirrorand forgetting what you look
like, right.

Speaker 2 (25:49):
The Bible talks about .

Speaker 3 (25:50):
it's like we do a lot of events and gatherings you
know like, but I don't know thateverybody understands when you
say that, like, open up the wordof God, understand what it is
and grow from this year to nextyear and be able to say these
are the lessons I learned lastyear and this is how I've grown.
I don't know that we'refocusing on a lot of that.

Speaker 2 (26:12):
And I think that they don't focus on it because it is
not the thing that iscelebrated.
So what's celebrated is thatyou can shout or you can be
really loud or you can be verycharismatic.
You don't see celebrated enoughsomebody going through the
steps of sanctification, whereit might take process.
It might take process, it mighttake, you know, you know, year
after year.
It might take you open up theword of god, not just to read

(26:33):
but to allow the word to readyou because it is living, it is
alive.
You don't see people talk aboutenough, I think, the true
beauty of what it means tocommune and the fellowship that
by real like by reason ofrelationship actually be
transformed, and I do think morepeople need to show that side
of things.
But I I I don't think it'slived often this is.

Speaker 4 (26:54):
This is what I was talking about earlier when I was
talking about the lack offaithfulness, because what
you're talking about is like itdoes.

Speaker 2 (26:59):
Yeah, yeah, that's a consistency exactly.

Speaker 4 (27:02):
It's like the root has to take, like the seed has
to take root.
Yeah, but it that takes time,that's a process and it's not a
public process.
Oh right, so you get thataffirmation exactly.
Yeah, that instantgratification.

Speaker 2 (27:14):
You're right.
You're right and in today'stime where it's all about what I
can post on tiktok, how much Iknow.
Like you might not feel likewhen you read it today that you
gained something, but you dorecognize that every time you
come into the presence becausein the beginning was the word
word, the word was God and theword was with God that you are
encountering a person.
When you read the word, that istransforming you.
It might not feel like you know, you can run with the spirit or

(27:36):
quote that verse, but if youkeep on keeping on because
truthfully that is my trueprocess it wasn't a whole lot of
and I love that you alwaysreference like we weren't the
churchgoers that you know, knew.
I don't know the A-flat and allthat.
We didn't grow up that way, wedidn't.
I learned God by way of realrelationship.

(27:57):
That was all my mama talkedabout.
That was all that was everreally purported.
She was never really about thereligious stuff.
I mean, she didn't go that wayand I could understand even why
he says when he has a church itwill be outside of the box.
That's how we've ever lived.
We've never lived the confinesof you.
Go up there you do your littletwo-step and it produced nothing

(28:18):
.
To me, it has to be fruitbearing.

Speaker 3 (28:20):
And it produced nothing Both of y'all know the
word, you can quote it.
You have intimate relationshipwith Jesus.
It is unique, probably peculiar, that you all would have
developed that back then outsideof the context of a church
structure.

Speaker 2 (28:40):
So I was in the church but it wasn't like so.
And I tell Travis all the timemy husband they did like he was
drugged at church.
He was a drug baby, like everytime the doors open, like we
were not like that.
We were not there seven days aweek, we were.
we grew up Baptist First of all,we went second and fourth
Sunday, but what I can tell you,twice a month and when I got

(29:00):
older like when I got 15 or 16,when I could drive I started
going to another denominationalchurch.
But what I can say we did havewas the presence of the Lord was
in our house, which church isnot like.
The essence of church is notthe building, it is a people
that are actually called to, aperson that actually lives a
lifestyle.
I can say we always had that.

(29:21):
I'm going to shout my mom out.

Speaker 1 (29:22):
I'm going to shout my mom out, the thing that our mom
had.
That I always think back to andif I can give my children
anything, I want to give themwhat my mama gave me.
It wasn't.
The thing she gave us from thevery beginning was our faith,

(29:43):
the very, very beginning.
And when Travis gave theexample, we didn't have life
struggles.
We could talk about it, youcould dilly-dally and nitpick,
but when I say life struggles,people wasn't dying.

Speaker 2 (30:00):
Nobody was getting sick.

Speaker 1 (30:01):
Nobody was getting in a car.
My mama had one car accident inher whole life Twice.

Speaker 2 (30:05):
Twice in her whole life.

Speaker 1 (30:07):
That most traumatic thing happened in our upbringing
.
I think one twice our wholelife.
That most traumatic thinghappened in our upbringing.

Speaker 2 (30:09):
I'm not saying that.
I think that impacted us.

Speaker 1 (30:13):
I get it.
I'm saying like when you talkabout life.

Speaker 2 (30:16):
Yeah, you were.

Speaker 1 (30:18):
I'm trying to really be like people done been through
some stuff.
We had everything we wanted,all the clothes we wanted, we
had cars at 16.
You name it.
But the thing she rooted in uswas two things.
It was three things Faith inGod.
She wasn't going to die.
Y'all take that how y'all wantto take that.
My mama going to be translated,my mama going to be translated,

(30:38):
and I still believe it.

Speaker 2 (30:42):
My mama going to be translated.
She said she going to be caughtup in the hell.

Speaker 1 (30:45):
My mom said she's going to be Enoch and she's
going to be Enoch.
If you don't believe it, I gotfaith.
You believe it, I believe it,I've always believed it.

Speaker 2 (30:51):
I'm not dying.
I'm going to be translated.
I'm going to be translated.
That's how I even know whatthat is.
I didn't even know that Enochcould be translated.

Speaker 1 (30:56):
If I get you repeating, that as an adult, I
am weak.
Yeah, and the last one and themost important one we didn't say
negative things.

Speaker 2 (31:08):
Oh, she was speaking About your confession.

Speaker 1 (31:10):
What Really?
We ain't never sick.
We won't say nothing.

Speaker 3 (31:14):
You couldn't say I'm sick.

Speaker 2 (31:15):
No, what I would say I got a headache.
She's like Saying you have aheadache Is not gonna make your
headache Go away.
Like you don't have to confessit, don't confess it.

Speaker 1 (31:22):
Stop confessing it, oh Don't confess it, but it did
really help.
It took root in our life.
It did.
We ain't say no negative stuff,bro, about ourselves.
We don't say no negative, bro,your leg broke, my leg don't
hurt, my leg ain't broke, buty'all have, both of you, this
faith gift.

Speaker 3 (31:36):
Like y'all really do say it and it's not like that,
you know, some people try to saytalk about this, other people
believe it.

Speaker 2 (31:50):
Well, they say it like that, my pastor.
He says that I have the gift ofbelievability.

Speaker 3 (31:55):
Yes.

Speaker 2 (31:56):
Because I believe it so much.
I'm not going to say somethingI don't believe, and I think
you're the same way.
We are not going to fake it.
If I don't believe it, I wouldbe quiet before I would say
something.

Speaker 4 (32:09):
I, I would be quiet before I would say something.
I can't say.
Yeah, no, I just.
I mean, I sent him a clip theother day and it was I think it
was a service for PT.
You wrote a song, you got it infront of the church and you
sang it.
I sent it to him and I saidthis tells me everything I need
to know about y'all.
It's like because I wasthinking, I was like of all the

(32:30):
things that could have stoppedyou from doing that like have
you ever written this songbefore?
have you ever sang it?
But I don't.
But I'm just saying it's likethe, the faith, the belief, the
confidence is like that is overy'all's life.
Like I remember when, whennorman first started coming
around, it was like, guys, wecan do it.
And then we're just right outthe list, boom.
All right, let's go for it,let's do it.

(32:50):
And so I echo that.
Like there is an extreme giftof faith on you guys' life.
Like I love it.
The no negative stuff.
My mom was like that too.
Like do not come around metalking any kind of negative.
I love that.

Speaker 2 (33:05):
I want to ask you something I guess publicly
because I don't know the answertruthfully, from your
perspective.
With the gift of faith, it hasbeen one of my areas of greatest
testing in terms of my actualbelief in self.
Privately, I don't believe manypeople would believe how much I
have struggled with my ownbelief in that I could do it.

(33:27):
So, although I can get like Iwould get up and sing this song,
Like I'm not afraid when I getup there, but the questions I
have internally about you know,am I good enough or no struggles
Do you have that too?

Speaker 1 (33:41):
My attack different.
I get why that's your attack.
It's for my dad, right Okay?
Oh, that we didn't have thelack of affirmation from a
father, from you, makes youmakes a woman question different
things than it makes a sonquestion okay, you know what I'm
saying but me talk about thatmore oh, for me it makes me
question my manhood, okay, so Ido things to prove and

(34:04):
exacerbate who I am as a man.
Got it.
That's why I trace after moneyor too many women or different
things like that is because mystruggle is in.
Am I ever really a man?
Because no one a man neveraffirmed me as a man.

Speaker 2 (34:18):
Okay, you know what I'm saying?
Women, mine, it was always.
Or.
My continual question is likeam I good enough?
Like, is it enough?
Like is it okay?
And although when I'm doingthis, generally not like when
I'm up, it's not like, oh, I'mnot in my head, but when I'm
down I'm in my head and it is.
That was why permission wasbirthed.
Like I go in rooms asking likepermission and I'm like I've

(34:39):
already been given permission.
What am I doing has always beenlike a thorn.
I hate it and it's weirdbecause I do have the gift of
faith and believability but itis a continuum of about it,
because the father is that.
He gives the affirmation ofidentity.

Speaker 1 (34:57):
He's that certifier of identity, and so for my man's
standpoint, a woman'sadmiration is good enough for me
.
You know what I'm saying, likemy mama telling me baby, that's
how my mama ever did you good,norma, you can do whatever you
want, so to me you ain't nothingI can't do.
But my mama can't affirm me.
My mama can't tell me I canbeat you up, jj, my mama told me

(35:17):
not to fight.
She told me to run in, go home,don't.
So.
I was a punk growing up likeyou, is that?
a punk.

Speaker 2 (35:27):
I mean seriously, I just want to know it is a punk.
The video man said yes, that'swhy I had a slick mom but you
know who had a slick mom.

Speaker 1 (35:38):
It's a woman.
Generally I can talk junk, butI couldn't fight growing up
because so those are thetrade-offs.
I wasn't like.
That's my struggle it wasalways like I wasn't like.
That's my struggle.
It was always like I was a punkkind of.
You know what I'm saying, likeI ain't about to really do
nothing.

Speaker 2 (35:53):
I'm going to let you know, you know what I'm saying.

Speaker 1 (35:55):
You ain't going to out-talk me.
That makes sense.
So that's what I, that's mything.

Speaker 3 (36:12):
You.
I do want to talk about thebook and the conference and just
like talk a little bit aboutthis permission thing, because I
feel like it is yoke breakingfor the women that get it Right.
And I think, even as you'resaying, like it's a journey and
it's a process, and you got togo back to it over and over
again, like, yes, what did you,what did you begin to unpack
about this idea of permissionand, by the way, I know it's not
just for women but like how didthat play out in terms of like?

Speaker 2 (36:31):
now I'm going to say this to these people and equip
them.
It has been and is the story ofmy life.
It is this, uh, continuum ofmaking a decision day over day
that who I've already beencreated to be is enough at the
basis of it.
That is, I don't want to walkin rooms asking people is it
okay to laugh this loud?
Is it okay to be smart?
Is it okay to look like this ifI was fashion, informed, in the

(36:52):
image and likeness of thefather, to be like him?
He's the greatest thing everand I want to allow that to
exude from who I am.
And to me, the definition ofpermission is being precisely.
Precisely, not kind of what Godsaid, but precisely and fully,
because I do believe thatsometimes, even in precision,
we'll know like no, that'sexactly.

(37:13):
He said go left, but we're like, yeah, okay, I'll go left, but
I'm gonna go right sometimes.
So I want the precision and thefullness of who he called me to
be not dragging, your feet notdragging my feet and I want to
own the foot.
I don't want to leave anythingon the table meaning, even
though I've known to be greatand an avid student, what if I
also have the ability to sing asong to my husband?

(37:34):
What if it is not my dominanthand that he wants to play up so
that I'll have another level ofdependency?
I want us to as a people, notjust women, to explore that
there's so much treasure thathe's placed on the inside of us
that so many times we shy awayfrom because of fear, trauma,
comfort and comfort is one ofthe hardest ones because we get
so used to.
Ej is the lawyer Like.

(37:56):
How dare him?
Try to be a market, a marketingguy?
What if God wants both?
What if he wants a duplicity ofthose two things merging to
show up and bring aboutsomething that, if you didn't
have the lawyer, lean that itwould not show up in that space?
And to me, when you own thefullness of who he created you
to be, all of that is displayed.
And it's not displayed in oneday.

(38:16):
It is a process over time, soyou don't get a permission
certificate.
It's one of those things thatyou have to live out through all
throughout life.
Continue to go back, daddy.
What did you say?
What do you want now?
How am I leaning now?
What season is this?
What am I putting down?
What am I picking up?
What am I prioritizing?
It is a life, truthfully on apotter's wheel, living in his
face over and over again toallow him to bring out the
fullness of all he poured, wow.

Speaker 1 (38:41):
And that's what I want to invite women into,
because I don't even think thatthey know it exists.
To put it in current terms,you've taken sanctification and
placed a UI, that's a userinterface, on top of it to give
it language that can relate tothe everyday woman.

Speaker 2 (39:02):
I love that.

Speaker 1 (39:04):
It's like now the everydaywoman, like we talk about
sanctification, andsanctification is such a it's so
religious.

Speaker 2 (39:09):
It's like now the everyday woman like we talk
about sanctification, andsanctification is such a heavy
word and then, when you takesanctification, you put the
permission.

Speaker 1 (39:15):
You are on it Now.
Okay, I get it.
You know I'm on a journey, I'mon this journey and I'm seeking
more and more permission fromhim.

Speaker 2 (39:24):
More and more permission from him, more and
more permission from him, moreand more permission from him,
more and more permission fromhim.
And, truthfully, something thatI found and I write about it in
the book is I found so manypeople who don't live that
process of going afterpermission where they know how
to act less than where they candummy themselves down.
They know how to fit the box,they know how to stay in the
confines, and I know people whoknow how to act more than so

(39:45):
I'll act pompous.
I how to act more than so I'llact pompous.
I'll act outside of like thatain't even really who you are,
bro, like chill.
But you very seldomly findpeople that just as I am.
And I want a world of peoplerecognizing that just as I am is
enough.
I want to invite people to likeno, just as I am.

Speaker 3 (40:03):
That's enough, but that is so.
And we talked, you know, justkind of before we were taping
and everything about this ideaof code switching.
Yeah Right, and you almost doit because you don't know that
you don't have permission.
But also sometimes you actuallydon't, you can't afford to
demonstrate that permissionbecause the stakes are too high

(40:26):
or other people are depending onyou to maintain a thing and
there's that external factorbehind the code switch that says
that's the wild card.
You don't know how that personis going to act.
And Norm said I don't do that,no more.
And I think that that's a placeof, I don't want to say
privilege, that's a place ofarriving that I think everybody

(40:47):
could stand to get to where youfinally decide I'm going to show
up and I'm going to becompletely me.
I had a thing where I waswrestling years ago, a couple of
years ago, with really turningdown the dial and dimming the
light, because I didn't like theway that it made other people
feel when I was like full blastand I knew that they got you
know insecure, or they thoughtthat I was being away and trying

(41:08):
to be it.
So I was like full blast and Iknew that they got you know
insecure or they thought that Iwas being away and trying to be
it.
So I was just like you knowwhat, I'm, instead of going to
10, I'm gonna just be at 7, I'mgonna sit at 7.
Been there and God checked meand was like don't you dare,
yeah, walk into that meeting andgo at 7, when you could go at
10 and change all of that.
It's an insult.
It's an insult.
It's poor stewardship, insult.

(41:28):
It's poor stewardship, yeah,and so I'm really I'm still
walking through that and andjourney to your point of
permission, journeying throughthat because I'm I'm a, I'm a
recovering people, pleaser, Ireally, like I'm a, do seven.
So everybody's happy.
I would rather everybody behappy and I suffer, then for me
to not suffer and live fully.

Speaker 2 (41:46):
Think about this they could have been happy with you
at seven, but changed with youat 10.

Speaker 3 (41:50):
That's right, that's right.
You know, change with you at 10.

Speaker 4 (41:53):
It is, oh you got to say there's just a sometimes,
when you are living in your ownfreedom, you wake people up to
the reality that they are, thatthey're not Absolutely.
I think that's the beauty ofhim.

Speaker 1 (42:05):
I think the most beautiful thing of me and JJ's
relationship is that right there, yeah, is when I met him and,
with all due respect, I love you.
You know I'm just speaking thetruth.
Yeah, of course I met him.
He was the shell of himself andI would look at him and I'm
like, bro, you're one of themost brilliant people I've ever
met.
You're one of the mostconfident, nicest.

(42:25):
You're the one, if not thegreatest, music man I've ever
met.
Wow.
But under the wrong conditions,in the wrong soil, the best tree
can't bear fruit.
That's right, and I ain'tsaying I was the greatest soil
lover, but I think I was a soilnecessary for him to come out of
that shell.
If you in the wrong soil, whenyou meet a past resistance, it's

(42:50):
easy to revert, that's right.
But in the right hands, thatresistance can be cultivated to
keep you going on that process,like when y'all talking about,
like being who you are as you am.
It's like I went to a meetingat EJ, them building, all the
little people in there thought Iwas some country and they was
acting like that.
And you know, I think even JJtold me after man, you can tone

(43:13):
it down.
I said I ain't toning nothingdown.
What's wrong with you?
They can be uncomfortable.
No, you know what you said no,no.

Speaker 4 (43:20):
I love it.
You said to me you said, look,if I at the beginning act not
like myself, then for the restof this relationship I can't be
me.

Speaker 2 (43:30):
You know, Mama used to always say start how you want
to finish how you want tofinish, Always.

Speaker 3 (43:35):
It's a very real thing it is.
Because what?
And in my life, what I'verealized and I've experienced
this in a former churchsituation, I've experienced this
in a former employmentsituation when the rubber meets
the road and my blackness has tobecause of current events or
because I'm getting pulled overby the cops unreasonably, like
whatever, my, my actual blackexperience is in America and I

(43:57):
say it to people who I've neverhad to say it to.
They're put off because I didn'tknow you were one of them and
I'm like, I'm black, and so whenI started realizing is like I'm
so sorry I'm black, but thereality is you turn all that

(44:20):
stuff down and make sure thatother people feel comfortable
with you, but you're notcomfortable and what happens is
they get an inauthentic realityof who you are.

Speaker 4 (44:30):
They don't even see the fullness of the name and so
I love.
It's like man, if this is goingto work, you just have to be
uncomfortable, Because we'llknow if it's not going to work
at the beginning and we'lldecide not to do it but man if
we can be our full selves andbring our full selves we all
going to grow Absolutely, forwhatever reason.

Speaker 1 (44:50):
You know me and Jay were talking yesterday.
People have these variousopinions of your little brother,
your little big brother,because they don't really know
me.
I've informed, I've informed alot of relationships in music.
Still, you know, maybe 20people have my phone number.
You know what I mean and havemet me in person.
We talking.

Speaker 2 (45:09):
Even less.

Speaker 1 (45:10):
Even less, even less even less definitely held up
meaningful conversation.
So they hear the rumor mill orwhatever.
So we we prospectively doingthe deal.
How?
do I know Norm's not gonna dothis and JJ has now, because
he's not like that, but he hasnow just accept, like man,
either they gonna do thebusiness with me or Norm right
now.
Hey, I'm not about to besitting around keep trying to
convince y'all who he is, who heain't Like.

(45:32):
Look, bro, if you can't tell bynow that this boy going to keep
it going, then you can't tell.
And the reason why this isimportant about being who you
are and coming as you arebecause once people actually
interact with me, or once peopleactually get in the situation,
we generally build a lifelongbond.

Speaker 4 (45:51):
For sure.

Speaker 1 (45:52):
You know what I mean, because it's like he just is
who he is.
It just is what it is, andthere's moments.

Speaker 2 (45:59):
I'm going to be devil's advocate in that.
I do believe that sometimes,when you are not living in the
fullness of your permission, youthrow people off to make them
believe something about you,that's not true, of course, I do
that too.
And I think you should stop.

Speaker 1 (46:15):
Yeah, I don't feel like you do that.

Speaker 2 (46:16):
No, I don't do it as much as she might think I don't
do it as much.
I don't do that no more.

Speaker 1 (46:21):
I don't piss people off just to piss them off.
No more.

Speaker 3 (46:23):
I have noticed that.
Yeah, I don't, I don't do that.

Speaker 1 (46:29):
I ain somebody because now I take more.
I take more pride in someonecoming away feeling well taken
care of, well kept, and that'sthe words they leave with from
us.
Then someone feel like, oh thatboy, norm, he's such a shark.

Speaker 2 (46:46):
I used to take pride in that stuff, that stuff ain't
worth it Well, I apologize forholding you up, no, listen keep
going because it's a process.

Speaker 3 (46:52):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, that stuff ain't worth a hell of
a thing.

Speaker 1 (46:56):
And that's the stuff I get, that's the great.
And people ask why would Ibring in all of these executives
?
And why would you bring inpeople who have opposing views
to you?
It's because I always wanted tounderstand how people with
other personalities had success.
And then I know my good traitsand I know my weaknesses, and

(47:17):
it's to see, it's humility.
It is For sure, for sure.
I don't need, yes, men, you candesire them.
Everybody wants adoration,everybody wants admiration in
moments.
But it also becomes an echochamber, yep, and you never get
to hear, and that's what Ibelieve that happens in a lot of
ministries is that a pastor hasan echo chamber and he doesn't

(47:39):
have people that challenge hisopinion, engage, engage.
And that comes through,something that's really quoted
by a lot of you churchconsultants, which is what is it
?
Something that's division, twovisions is division, something
like that, and that's divinish.
Two visions is divinish,something like that.
And it's not another vision,it's an opinion.
And I think that in a lot ofplaces, in a lot of ministries,

(48:00):
what would be helpful is it'snot about honor, isn't blind.

Speaker 2 (48:06):
Right, you know what I mean.

Speaker 1 (48:07):
Honor isn't blind, it doesn't not talk, it doesn't
not have an opinion.
It it doesn't not talk, itdoesn't not have an opinion, it
doesn't not add value.
Every honor is adding value.
It's coming as your full self.
It's coming as you are bringingall you have to the table,

(48:28):
because pastors are pastors.
They aren't also CEOs, cfos,architects.
The greatest genius this sideof you know.

Speaker 2 (48:35):
All of the gifts are needed.
All of the gifts are needed.
I mean, he literally says wecome together as one body.
You're missing a pinky.
You're going to feel it.

Speaker 1 (48:41):
You're going to feel it Period.
You're missing your thumb.
You're going to be really introuble.

Speaker 2 (48:44):
And you don't know that.
Sometimes you do not know thatsometimes Because you're just
the head and sometimes need allof the members, all of the
members you also have anotherbook remaining is love, which
you know.

Speaker 3 (48:55):
I don't know how you find time, so I'm gonna come
back to the book in a second,actually, because I do want to
ask about the time.
Okay, you co-pastor the churchforward city, you are a devoted
wife, an incredible mom, afriend of the friends podcast,
doing it like, how, how like,and was this the because, by the
way, you were doing dentistry,I was, so what are we doing here

(49:16):
?

Speaker 2 (49:17):
So my husband loves to call me the youngest retired
dentist that he knows.
So I stopped doing dentistry inJudah is five, so about five
years ago, cause I was pregnantwith him, so maybe six.
I literally believe in whateverassignment God has for me, and
you know lots of people,especially in the professional
world, where you cross every Tand dot every I like.

(49:37):
What do you mean?
You go to school for eightyears and you just walk away
from something.
I truthfully don't feel like Iwalked away from something.
I feel like I walked intosomething else, carrying all
that I gained from that Right.
I believe it will be the samefor this as it pertains to you
walking into pastoring.
So it's not lost, it'll just beutilized in a different way,
because the reason why I becamea dentist was because I like to

(49:58):
educate.
I don't care if it's teachingsomebody how to play space.
I'm going to teach them, babies, some ABCs.
I'm going to teach somebodysomething.
So the education arm or lean ofme shows up in every place that
I go.
We're going to break downGenesis.
All of who I am is alwaysshowing people how, and so it
can show up in different facetsand forms.
How I find time, is living alife of devotion and that's all

(50:22):
remaining his love.
It's a Debo book of literallydifferent things out of my
journal I'm currently everysingle day.
I asked the Lord this because Iused to have such a hard time
with being faithful, beingconsistent.
I was the girl that watched allthe movies, or you hear the
girls in church.
Like you know, I write in myjournal.
I was like I ain't grow up likethat.
I don't go lay across my bedand write in a journal.

(50:42):
That wasn't my thing.
I wanted to, but it wasn't trueto who I was.
And so I prayed and I was likeGod, I just want to be faithful,
like I want to be consistent inlike pursuing you.
It wasn't for anything otherthan him, I just wanted his
presence consistently.
I started uh, it was in 2020specifically around this whole

(51:04):
idea of remain where God taughtstart telling me to get up at
5.00 AM.
It was sometimes very hard andI mean I would do little tricks
like okay, if I feel real tired,if I put my feet on the floor,
like Jackie, you can't lay backdown, like you sit up for five
seconds like I don't know, andthen I would run and I'm like,
as soon as you brush your teethand wash your face, you'll be
fine.
And it was a hard habit tostart creating, but what it

(51:25):
produced is it's a life ofabundance, which means when I'm
getting in the presence of theLord just for myself, I'm
pouring over the word like Lord,I don't just want to read this,
to read it, I want it to readme.
You show me these principles.
I'm just writing down stuff formyself and what it turned into
was a book.
I literally in this book, in thevery beginning, I teach people
how to do it.
So it's these four W's we wait,we write, we worship and then

(51:45):
we read the word no-transcriptgonna have to see them.
You gotta write up, you gottatalk about what's going on, ask
questions.
That's how you build intimacy.

(52:07):
From that, the lord was likeyeah, you need to make a devo
book because too many peopledon't know how to live a life of
remaining.
John 15 is my text, because itcame out of like how do I stay
connected to the vine?
Not come in and come out?
I was the girl.
Truthfully, you know, I wouldgo to the prayer meetings and
you had this like oh my God,they're like she's so powerful,
have these high moments, but Ididn't see consistently see in

(52:29):
my lifestyle and that wasn'tenough for me.
Wow, it wasn't enough for me toseem like the powerful girl,
because I do have ademonstrative presentation, but
I wanted a demonstrative life.
Wow, I wasn't satisfied.
I wanted to bear fruit and muchfruit, and fruit that will last
, and you don't do that apartfrom connecting with him daily,
like that can't come from me.
Over and over again.

(52:50):
He produces that fruit thatwill last, and so I had to learn
how to stay consistent.
You have to receive his lovefirst, and it goes through three
parts in the Devo book.
You receive his love.
It's the Amazon package Show upat your house, and I do believe
that so many people have leftGod's love and his intimacy
sitting on the porch.
The Amazon box it showed up.
They didn't receive it.

(53:11):
It's literally sitting outthere getting rained on and
they're walking outside thehouse, they're literally passing
it by, going to look for thething that they would find if
they would just receive it.
After you receive it, you openthe box, you embrace what's in
it.
What I found inside of it is Idon't have to be perfect, I
won't get it all right.
And when I was a sinner, youknow what he did he still went
and died for me.
So, whether I got it right orgot it wrong, his consistent

(53:32):
love for me didn't change.
So I embraced that reality,that man, I ain't going to get
it right sometimes and I'm stillloved, okay.
So that means like, yeah, okay,I'm not a dentist, so what, I'm
not all, I don't have a three,nine, six, and it actually just

(53:53):
rest with him.
Wow, like so many people havesettled for a life of like being
in the circus, like they tryingto do all these tricks for God.
He's like I take you just asyou are, embrace that.
But you don't embrace it untilyou receive it, and then it's
just a life of remaining.
After that, when I recognizedthat I couldn't do it in my own
strength, I couldn't get itright enough, I couldn't get it
wrong enough, I could just be inhis presence and it'd be enough

(54:15):
, it was the most freeing thingI had ever experienced.
You talking about a girl thatwent from summa cum laude queen
of every school, you know all ofthe things yeah, to be able to
put that down and recognize thatI'm still good enough.
You don't know freedom untilyou taste it, and I wouldn't't
go back.

Speaker 1 (54:31):
Your revelation of God is always the most beautiful
thing I've ever seen.

Speaker 2 (54:37):
Whoa.

Speaker 1 (54:38):
I don't know.
I met a ton of people in thisChristendom.
I don't know many people thattalk about God from the essence
that you talk about him from.
You know people joke about thedaddy guy thing.
It's not a joke to me becausemy sister asked it.
It's real to her.
So it's like God is so aliveand present and omniscient to

(55:04):
you, omniscient, omniscient toyou.
It's like he is, it's likeyou've seen him before.

Speaker 2 (55:13):
And I feel like and I don't mean that because I'm not
a spooky one, like you know,some people are, I mean some
people get, but I notfiguratively, because I can
remember and this is truthful,like it's not as if I, some
people that do this, have neverexperienced the world.
I've experienced the world.
I've been out there.
I had a drop top, I wore myweave Like I've had all of this

(55:34):
success and you know all thethings.
It was empty.
It did not ever heal thebrokenness that I had.
It didn't keep me out of thebed.
That weren't mine.
It was when I gave up on thedude who cheated on me, and I
remember I was in college, I wasin a dorm room, I had washed my
sheet, I was sitting on amattress.
I can I remember it like it wasyesterday.

(55:56):
I remember what it felt likewhen he walked in a room, when I
had walked away from him, Iwillfully chose to do the wrong
thing.
And his love it wasn't justthat he loved me, it was that he
still loved me.
That when I didn't want him, Iwanted to make sure that this
dude knew that I was ready todie.
That when I didn't want him, Iwanted to make sure that this
dude knew that I was right todie.
And I'm here.

(56:17):
And he's like and I'll be herewhen you get back, that I'll
still be right there.
I never recovered it.
I couldn't understand that itwas a love out there like that.
Every other thing that I hadtried was it was such a
counterfeit that like the dudecouldn't come close.
I found a real thing and it'slike it is life transforming and

(56:41):
I love to speak about itbecause I know people that knew
me before.
I knew him like that, so theyknow I'm not faking.
I remember it was hazelcontacts and you know baby fat I
mean, I mean I went to the club.
I remember in our little smalltown like that, that dj gonna
give me the shout out, Iremember all of that stuff.

Speaker 1 (57:03):
That's the thing most people don't get.
I did it all young and when I'mreferencing for you.

Speaker 3 (57:07):
I was doing the math in my head when I'm referencing
for you.

Speaker 2 (57:10):
I was like we didn't grow up with like restrictions
with all of this, like I mean Idone, done, had all the stuff
went to all the places and bythe time I got to college I
remember 18 was my turning pointI was just like, yeah, man, I'm
taking these contacts out, I'mtaking this weave out, I'm going
to figure out something to dowith my hair.
Like I'm over it.
It didn't produce nothing.

Speaker 1 (57:30):
I remember when my sister changed, I was in changed
.

Speaker 2 (57:32):
He thought I was crazy.
He literally thought I wascrazy.

Speaker 1 (57:35):
She was out of her mind.
We didn't grow up like that.
We grew up like how you wouldthink young, wealthy
African-Americans in the countrywould be.
We had everything.
We called ourselves regal.
We thought we was the junk.
Can't, nobody mess with us.
We were materialistic, youngAfrican-American affluent kids.

(57:56):
That's the girl I left.
Right, I left my rich sister inthe country.
We super smart, we definitelygoing to college and we leaving
y'all down here and we're goingto come back and stunt on y'all.
That is who I left.

Speaker 2 (58:13):
Jackie G on her tag I had a candy orange Chevy.

Speaker 1 (58:17):
I left my stunting sister I came back to, which
y'all would know now asPriscilla Shrier.
I think back then it wasJuanita Bonham and I don't know
who these people is back then.
But then I came home to thisGirl what you got going on and
she called me on the phone.
I'm just praying for you, norm.
I called my mom.
I'm like Mama Jackie donejoined the cult.
I don't know what this HolySpirit thing she on my phone

(58:41):
talking about.
She praying for me.
I'm lost, mama, how I'm lostwhen I'm at.

Speaker 2 (58:49):
The thing that I will tell you.
I mean, I don't know if you'veever experienced this, though
Even in the middle of all ofthat, I can still remember being
at Janice Church inSandersville, Like the what
would I say?
The seeds or the genesis of thegirl that I became was always
in me.
Yeah, of course I was four.
I can remember singing in thechoir when we were in Atlanta,
before we got to Sandersville,and I used to stand up and

(59:11):
testify what it was always inyou I actually had to depart the
truth of who I was to becomecool and to be a part of the
things.
It was the rejection that I felt.
I didn't want to be rejectedanymore.
I had to please all the people.
It was more of a fakeness thanit was like oh, I want to do
this stuff and I just returnedback to who I really was from
the beginning.

Speaker 1 (59:30):
She did it really fast.
That's the beauty in herjourney.
It's like, yeah, when we wasyoung, like they were dating me
to preach.
When I was four, literally Igave a sermon to adults I did In
a living room, on Genesis 5thchapter, about why people live
longer then and we don't live aslong now.
I remember it like it wasyesterday, seriously, this is
serious business, seriousbusiness.
We ask my mom if you thinkabout it.

Speaker 3 (59:52):
I believe it.

Speaker 1 (59:52):
I just want to hear the message, but the point that
I'm making is that it's to showthe journey.
Two people can grow up in thesame house yeah, same parents,
same experiences, same accessand their journeys be different,
and it's not due to nothing.
My mom would have done the samething for her, she would have

(01:00:13):
done the for her, she would havedone anything for me.
It's just, my journey took agreat deal longer and I do
believe I do believe Jack and mymom.
When I left, they got anopportunity to create a bond
that I'm not going to say theydidn't have when I was in the
house, but she got a dedicateddevotion to having.

(01:00:36):
But she was the only child andwhen I was the only child, my
mom spoiled me.
I was a little boy, I was herfirst child and my dad was mean
to me.
That's just how we're going tosay it.
Hey, we got his daughter.
He was nicer.
And then Jackie got her momalong in those formative years,
15, 16.
You know, I think I left whenyou're two years old, so 16, 17,

(01:00:58):
18.
I went to college then and at16, 17, 18, for me, I wanted to
be whatever 16-year-oldrambunctious boy that's been
growing up.
School wanted to be.
I wanted what I wanted and Iwanted to be.

Speaker 2 (01:01:08):
And I started having those.
It was like, I would say,little aha moments.
I can remember standing inchurch and I was looking around
at all the other people and Iwas like I want to stand up and
worship.
Nobody does that.
And I remember like, literallylike counting myself down, like
three, two, one, stand up.
Like not kidding, I was like Igot to stop just doing what
everybody else do, like it wasstarting to.
I was having a breakout momentsLike I'm sick of being like

(01:01:29):
everybody else, I'm sick offaking.
I remember, and still, throughcollege, I was always the
designated driver, always themama, always like y'all, we
don't have to live.
Like it was always theseprogressive thoughts of like why
do we do this?
So it was just the genesis, Ithink, of the pastoral part of
me, like no, we can livedifferent, we don't have to do
this and it's because she's aleader.

Speaker 1 (01:01:50):
And that's the thing it's like when you know, I you
before.
I started going to Fort WorthCity.
Once I came into Fort WorthCity, I was still Norman, and
what I mean is like I'm notfollowing the trend.
I'm Norman, I'm bringing myfull brilliance, all of my ideas
, pt.
These are the things I thinkwould do right.
Do you need a camera?
Like, we need to get oursocials up.

(01:02:13):
Do you need a camera?
We need to get our socials up.
I'm following the blueprint ofwhat we would call the world and
applying it to this, but it'snot the blueprint of the world,
it's a blueprint of excellence.
That's it, and a lot of timeswe conflate that, we conflate in
the body, saying we're supposedto be separate from the world
and what the light has to dowith that.
We're not supposed to beseparate from excellence.

(01:02:34):
And there are excellent.
There's some things that arejust simply excellent about in
the world that we have departedfrom because we don't want to
look like it.
He put it here for it to beexcellent and it should start at
the church.
It should start at the best run.
Corporations in the worldshould be churches, for sure,

(01:02:54):
the brightest minds in the worldshould be in the body, because
that's how he designated it.
That's how he designed it.
You think it's a coincidence?
The only non-taxable entity inthe United States is a
non-profit church.
It's already created at anadvantage.
That's his earmark.
Guys, I did it.

(01:03:16):
You know what I mean, right,right, you, you see what I'm
saying.
Like, you have an unfairadvantage.
We always have an unfairadvantage, but because of
whatever reason, because of overindexing either side, yeah, we
lose sight.
We lose sight and access tothat excellence.
And that's one of the thingsthat I believe that because of

(01:03:40):
how we grew up and because ofhow we were able to see
entrepreneurship and access,we're able to not shun business
because it doesn't make usuncomfortable and it doesn't
take away from the faith, itdoesn't take away from the
spiritual edge, it doesn't takeaway from any of that, if
anything it adds to it, itstrengthens it.

Speaker 2 (01:04:02):
It strengthens it, it gives it more veracity.
And stewardship is the hallmarkof Christianity.
It's so embedded.
He expects us to be goodmanagers of what he sent us here
for, like manage your life well, what were you sent to the
earth to do?
And when we don't do that well,we're producing a terrible
return.
That's all business.
Absolutely, trust me, it'sbiblical, absolutely so.

(01:04:25):
I should say it's Hallmark,it's biblical.

Speaker 4 (01:04:28):
We ask all our guests this question what is your
maverick moment?

Speaker 2 (01:04:42):
Hmm, our guests this question what is your maverick
moment?
I would say 2017.
Um, I didn't give y'all thisbackstory but in 20 uh, in I was
four I am African-American mymom decided that she needed to
tame my tight curls you know, itwasn't, you know foresee you
know on it back then, and so sheput two chemicals in my hair
and it caused me to lose my hair.
I had bald spots and patches inmy hair, and so all of my life,

(01:05:03):
I grew up with the damage ofalways feeling like, not just
that something was wrong with myhair, but something was wrong
with me.
I mean, I can remember beingtaken in back rooms in a
hairdresser.
It was just always this hide,hide, you know you're not good
enough, kind of thing.
And in 2017, I took the weaveout and cut my hair for the
first time.
It was to me a public line inthe sand for the enemy that I

(01:05:27):
was no longer going to live in,hiding, no longer live based on
the label of that trauma, and Ifeel like it set me on a path of
I'm out here now and I'm nolonger going to live ashamed,
and all of this private stuffthat I've been working through
as it pertains to sanctificationand the Lord, uh, healing
insecurities.
I'm gonna live it out loud.

Speaker 4 (01:05:50):
There was a.
There's a moment that, uh,norman told me about, when I
think things were starting topop off for Travis and he got
had got invited to, to I thinkit was a Potter's house and he
called you backstage because hewas nervous.
And what did you say?
What did you tell him?

Speaker 2 (01:06:06):
I was like what?
You better pick up that guitar,put that little pick in your
hand and go out there and do thething you were created for
guitar, put that little pick inyour hand and go out there and
do the thing you were createdfor.
Because at the end of the daykind of similar to what he said
the wife is present to affirmI'm gonna help me.
I am set to whatever Travis iscreated to do, be alongside it,
and whether that's just my words, affirming like you got this, I

(01:06:28):
recognize that and I don't seethat as a small call, because I
do believe that when a man findsa wife, he finds a good thing
and obtains favor, that a partof my presence, it created and
attracted everything that wassupposed to come toward our life
.
So my ability to say, travis,you got this, no matter if it's
8,000 pastors and leaders orwhoever it is for that matter,

(01:06:48):
what God has placed in you isready.
He wouldn't open the door ifyou weren't ready for it.
You're giving him permission.
You, it's ready.
If he wouldn't open the door,if you weren't ready for giving
him permission.

Speaker 1 (01:06:55):
Absolutely good tag, I love that anything you got
coming up um we should knowabout.
Ladies should look out forfellas to look out for we
currently are.

Speaker 2 (01:07:05):
I got a word as it pertains to permission.
I have a permission app whichis where all of the ladies of
permission live.
It's like 1500 of the ladiesinside of the app.
Now All of these women havemade a decision.
Like I don't have to liveaccording to the world's way,
I'm going to go after thefullness of who God created me
to be.
We took a regional approach andso we are in South Carolina,
north Carolina, new York, newJersey, philly, georgia, dmv,

(01:07:32):
and so you can literally jointhe app and we really are doing
that whole thing of like I don'twant you just to come to
conference and then go back toyour regular life and not have a
place or a way to actuallysustain this life of freedom.
So we are doing pop-ups monthly.
They have times to be able toget on, call, ask me questions
and stuff like that.
It's really just discipleshipat its best and kind of living
out the X model of making actualregions where people can

(01:07:53):
actually come together andcontinue to live, where they
have women locking arms withthem.
So I would really love for anywoman looking to be able to live
that life with permission tojoin.

Speaker 1 (01:08:01):
Any new books tours?

Speaker 2 (01:08:03):
Travis and I actually have a book that we have to get
done.
It's coming up.
I actually canceled conferencefor this particular year, so
it'll come back in 26.

Speaker 1 (01:08:11):
Wow.

Speaker 2 (01:08:12):
Oh, you want to dig it.
I like it okay.
So at the end of 2024, um,there was a lot of major
transitions in our organization,not just with the church but as
it pertains to our uh, ourbusinesses drjg, green light we
went through a lot, uh, I wouldsay uh, the toll that it took on

(01:08:32):
me as a person.
It was I think God wanted me totake a pause to.
Not this is the season that Ifeel like I'm in currently.
I know very, very well and Ithink I'm a specialist at
showing up for the world.
He wanted me to add me to theequation and I could have done

(01:08:54):
conference.
I know how to push through.
I know how to do that.
I don't think that you seepublic figures or biblical
leaders take the time enough toobey the Lord that when he says
pause or be still, or he makesme lie down in green pastures.
I don't think that we see mykind of people do that enough
and I didn't want to just forthe sake of like, we do

(01:09:15):
conference every year, doconference.
I only do conference becauseGod tells me to do conference
and in this particular season,after living through all of that
, I really felt like this was aseason where he really needed me
to take some time to like no,let's dig into some of that pain
, let's dig into some of thelessons that you could learn to
not have to live some of thosethings again.
And so I obeyed him.

Speaker 1 (01:09:35):
So, earlier in that process, what would you say
would be the most valuablelesson you've learned?

Speaker 2 (01:09:42):
Ooh, okay that there are times that somebody cannot
mean it bad to you, but it canbe bad for you, yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:09:51):
There are times somebody cannot mean it bad to
you, so their motive might nothave been bad, but it still
ended be bad for you.

Speaker 2 (01:09:54):
there are times somebody can not mean it bad to
you, so their motive might nothave been bad, but it still
ended up bad for you.
I have a gift of empathy and Ican always understand why
somebody did something.
I can understand why you didn'tshow up.
I can understand why.
Okay, I can see why they didthat.
I can always put the.
I can put the foot or the shoeon the other foot, like I can
always do that.
What I generally do when I dothat because of the gift of

(01:10:14):
empathy is I will not embracethe reality that it still hurt
me.
Okay, I understand, but itdoesn't take away the reality
that that it's like I couldunderstand why I got punched in
the face.
Well, although I can understandit, should I keep getting
punched in the face?
And I do feel like in some ways, I was still being punched in
the face by relational, byrelationships that I had to

(01:10:36):
learn that they might not havemeant it bad, but it was bad for
me and I had to learn theboundary of saying that's not
good for me.

Speaker 1 (01:10:44):
Wow, wow, whoa.
Marius on the mic.
Well, we just finished theepisode of Marius on the mic
with my illustrious beautifulsister, dr Jackie Chumphy Green.
This is an episode you don'twant to miss.
It's more of a joint episodeabout me and her.

(01:11:05):
I didn't know it was going togo that route, but I do believe
you'll learn a lot about each ofus personally.
Our upbringing Shout outSandersville, georgia.
It birthed two of gods.
Believe you'll learn a lotabout, uh, each of us personally
, our upbringing.
Um, shout out sandersville,georgia.
Uh, it birthed two of god'smost dynamic warriors.
I'll say you don't want to missthis episode.
Tune in to the next episode ofmavericks on the mic signing off

(01:11:27):
, Thank you.

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.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}Dr Jackie Greene: Called by God, Not by Culture

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