Kirk Franklin: What Gospel Music Forgot to Say Out Loud

Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
That the pendulum has swung too far.
The extremes.
I believe that trueChristianity is lived in the
middle of the tension.
I want to see the numbers, butI don't want to see them.
I'm married, but man, she fine.
That's authentic.
That's authentic.
Get away with me, bro.
Brother, I don't look atanything, bro.
Bro, I can't help you.

(00:21):
I don't even know what you'retalking about.
You're talking another language, bro, I can't help you.
I don't even know what you'retalking about.
You're talking another language.
She is fine.

Speaker 3 (00:38):
I don't understand what's wrong with what you're
looking at?
What's up everybody?
Welcome to another episode ofMavericks on the Mic.
I'm JJ.
I'm EJ.

Speaker 4 (00:58):
My name is Norman Jumphy and today we have a
special guest, my brother, myfriend.
He's affectionately known asthe GOAT greatest of all time,
and that is.

Speaker 1 (01:09):
I am the Alpaca.
My name is Kirk Franklin theAlpaca.
Have you ever seen an?
Alpaca they spit right, butthey're very awkward looking.

Speaker 2 (01:23):
Well, you're not funny looking, he's a little
funny looking, I'm a littlefunny looking.

Speaker 4 (01:25):
Well, you're not funny looking.
I mean, he's a little funnylooking, I'm a little funny
looking.
5'6", 5'7".

Speaker 1 (01:29):
No, I'm 5'4", 5'5", 200 pounds.
Thank you, dad, all muscle.

Speaker 2 (01:36):
All muscle, all muscle, oh Lord.

Speaker 1 (01:38):
Man.
Thank y'all for having me, bro.
Thank you for being here, man.
Thank you for being here, man.
Thank you for coming this issuper good.

Speaker 4 (01:42):
We're going to have a great conversation, you know?
Yeah, we've done a lot of worktogether over these past few
years.
Absolutely yes.

Speaker 1 (01:48):
Yes, absolutely.

Speaker 4 (01:49):
And we wanted to have our brother down.
Just to you know, we're kickingit back off Maverick's on the
mic, so this is what it soundslike, man.
We're going to talk about someexperiences, some trials and
tribulations, some ups, somedowns, some controversies, some
wins, some losses.

Speaker 1 (02:09):
How they impacted all of us Many.
Yeah, man, and don't take iteasy on me, don't give me the
Christian-ese.

Speaker 4 (02:17):
No, don't even do that, let's keep it a stack.
Yeah, we won't even do that.
That's good, let's get it in.

Speaker 1 (02:21):
Man Love it I.
Let's keep it a stack yeah wewon't even do that.
It's good.
Let's get it in, man Love it.

Speaker 2 (02:24):
I have a question off the bat and I've been thinking
about this for some days.
You have a song where you startoff.
For those of you who think thatgospel music has gone too far
has Kirk Franklin ever gone toofar?

Speaker 1 (02:40):
Well, first of all, I've never heard that song.
I don't know.
I'm trying to gather thecomparison.
Trying to understand what youmean by that.
It's, I think, too farsubjective.
I think it's subjective.
I think that you know, didMartin Luther go too far with
the Protestant Reformation?
You?

Speaker 2 (03:07):
know, did MLK go too far?

Speaker 1 (03:07):
with the movement.
You know it's, it's all.
Because some would say, yes,you know, um, billy graham told
martin when he was in jail thathe was being too loud, they need
to be more quiet.
So, you know, some would saythat he was doing too much, that
he was going too far.
I mean, you know, um, many ofour, you know, you look at, you,
look at augustine or tertullian, some of the early church

(03:28):
fathers they were, you know theywere.
They were put in prison forhaving these monotheistic ideals
, you know.
So it's all subjective, butwhen you say too far, um, it's,
I don't know anything else butzero to a hundred, whether on
stage, in my own personal life,wherever I am, that's all I know
.
And I don't know it, uh,consciously, you know, it's just

(03:50):
kind of part of my wiring, so Ijust try to show up and be the
most authentic, whatever thatmay be that day.

Speaker 2 (03:59):
I think one of your hallmarks if I can speak freely
is that you are authentic andtransparent and humble about it.
Like you are quick to fall onthe sword, quick to apologize,
quick to say I'm not perfect.
I mean a lot of the music andthe lyricism that you've given
people for decades at this pointhas given us a glimpse of what
it looks like to be honest andbroken, but still used.

(04:23):
Was that intentional in yourartistry or is that just an
outgrowth of who you are?

Speaker 1 (04:30):
it is very much a byproduct of who I am, to the
point that it's very weird forme when people, when, when
people highlight it like mywhole career has been very weird
that vulnerability,transparency, being kind and
nice to people, or people sayingthat you're humble, you know,
like, like you know, these arethe attributes, I think, of

(04:51):
every struggling saint.
That's a sinner, right, youknow, and and and so it it.
It has always been a weirdconundrum for me when they have
sometimes had this level of uh,of exclusivity.
When there's a conversationthat I'm hearing from people is
because I think that thoseshould be attributes.

(05:11):
That, like I don't understand.
The deficiency of the attributeis that all I know is, and I
don't know, you know if it's,you know if it's, if it's
related to my childhood trauma,my deficiency, my absence as a
kid, that I'm just very quick tolike yell for help or yell that
I need help.
I got a problem, I got astruggle, like I've been that

(05:32):
way my entire life, so it's, Idon't know it to be something
that is.
You know, there's this uniqueattribute about me.
It's just all I know to be, youknow, and uh and uh.
And Paul McCartney said uh, who?
Who needs therapy when you havemusic?
So you know, and and I thinkthat music for me has been my

(05:55):
couch my entire life that I'mable to talk about whatever it
is, I feel.
You know, I remember being 20years old and writing a song.
One of my first placements wasa song on Savoy Records and the
song said I'm sorry, forgive me,clean me up.
Jesus, I didn't mean to hurtyou nor desert you, because I

(06:19):
love you so much.
I admit it that I did it.
I didn't mean to let you down.
Please, jesus, turn my lifearound and give me another
chance.
You know I'm 20 years old.
You know, and those are thesentiments of my you know heart
as a young man, and still thesentiments of my heart today.

Speaker 4 (06:39):
Wow, what would you think, what would you say, is
the biggest change from that20-year-old young man to today?

Speaker 1 (06:48):
Not much, really Not much, not much.
I think that—.

Speaker 4 (06:53):
Some people would say that would be sad that not much
has changed.

Speaker 1 (06:56):
Well, I think it's all in the eyes of the level of
honesty that somebody would say,okay, honesty that somebody
would say, okay, it's.
I don't think that peopleshould ever expect for success
to be an, an, an, an attributethat just automatically means
that there is this evolution ofwho you are internally.
It's, it's.
I think that the swords that wefall on, the crosses that we

(07:18):
carry, the thorns that wepossess, these are real
realities for people that are inthe space that we exist in.
I asked my therapist once.
I said why do you think?
Because I make fun.
I said why do you think thatI'm one of your longest patients
that you've ever had?
He started laughing.
He said because everyexperience in your life it turns

(07:42):
on a new trauma.
Wow, it turns on a new trauma.
Wow.
Whether it was childhood, orthe audio tape with Carry On, or
this experience with thinkingone man was my dad and wasn't,
or the industry changing orempty nesting, every experience

(08:06):
is now a reoccurring experiencein your life.
But at the same time they endup being ink for the pen.
You know, like I'm working on asong now for the project for
another Kirk record, and itstarts off Jesus, please help my
emotions.
I wake up feeling afraid.
I try so hard to control them.

(08:29):
Feels like um, um, don't knowwhat to expect from every day.
Will I get closer?
Will I get stronger?
Tell me, when will this everend?
Take me through the fire,cleanse me in your uh, uh flames
.
Purify desires that get in theway.
Can you take me higher?
I'm ready to escape.
Whatever is not like you, I'llbring it every day till you take

(08:53):
this thorn away.
You know.
So.
You know you don't get to talklike that without something.
So I just fully believe thatyou know, just kind of based on
on, on, on where you tracktheologically, you know, is I
just believe that God allows acertain amount of to certain

(09:15):
people's lives because that'swhat he needs to use to keep the
pen full of ink.
And if that's the case and tobe able to be, at 55 years old,
traveling with Maverick City andbeing in stadiums, then bring
on the pain.

Speaker 2 (09:30):
That's how I've come to the resolve have you always
been willing to do that?

Speaker 1 (09:33):
yes, really, I've always had that and I think
that's also because I was, Ithink that because I was born
and raised in it, like I livedthat before I wrote that Like I
remember being 13 years old andthe lady that adopted me,
gertrude right, you know, wedidn't have nothing.

(09:55):
There was Christmas reallywasn't celebrated at the crib,
there was really no money ornothing.
And one night my biologicalmother came over.
It was a Christmas Eve.
She came over, and againChristmas Eve she came over, and
again this was a lady thatwould come in and out maybe two,
three times a year.
You know, I didn't really knowher well, and so I remember her
coming over and she fell asleepon the couch and at 12 am

(10:21):
Christmas morning, I remembergoing because there were no
gifts.
I mean, there was no, therewere no gifts up on.
I mean, there was no tree, nogifts, nothing.
It was just nothing.
It was just me, a 73-year-oldlady and a woman on the couch
that I did not hardly know.
And I remember going outsideand looking up in the sky and
saying happy birthday Jesus,like you know, kind of like,

(10:43):
well, that's it and so, and Iknow that it sounds like violins
and it sounds like tears, butI'm telling you that is the
aesthetic of how I grew up.

Speaker 4 (10:54):
Did you know better, though?
That's something I always liketo reflect on with people.
It's because you know in yourupbringing.
You only know how you grew up,what you did you know what I
mean?

Speaker 1 (11:03):
That's it.

Speaker 4 (11:04):
So did the people around you have that?
Did you know you were missingsomething at christmas then, or
did you find out as you grew you?

Speaker 1 (11:12):
knew based on the uh the tv show okay how the?
family's sitting around with theturkey or you know, you know,
you know whether it's a charliebrown Christmas or you know the
Waltons come home for Christmas.
I'm kind of showing my age, youknow.
So you have an idea that thereis a world out there that exists

(11:33):
, that has a certain aestheticof mom and dad and siblings,
like you know, like even themost simple thing a minute ago
of watching you and yourbiological siblings say hey to
each other and hug somethingabout it, was very beautiful for
me but yet painful because Idon't know, what that feels like
.
so these, these, these, thesedichotomies of emotions that

(11:57):
I've lived with my entire lifeand I know it sounds so
overdramatic.
I know some, some people say,man, you got 20 Grammys, you got
this, and that Can you get over.
I wish it was that easy.
Wow, I wish it was that easy.
I would love to be able toclose my eyes and do the genie
thing and be just Gucci.
But life be life, and I thinkthat what I try to do is to try

(12:28):
to be an oracle and and and aconduit to say don't let
Christianity fool you.
Yeah, this can still be hellthat you still gotta live with,
that's right it's the same waythat a bride, same way that a
bride at the altar.
And she says I do.
And they get in that car andthere's a diesel truck that hits
that car and now her husband isnow a.
He's in a wheelchair for therest of his life.
You can't tell that woman thatshe's just going to be giggly

(12:51):
because she's going to have tolive with the pain and the wives
.
And she got the and and and shejust said I do to death, do a
spot.
She just said it there arepeople that live like that, but
I think that modern christianityhas a way that now everything
is such a freaking TED talk thatwe don't even get to the core.
Reality is that that that Jesussaid in this world you will

(13:13):
have trouble, hell.
The first hundred years ofChristianity was built on
martyrdom.
There wouldn't even beChristianity if it hadn't been
for cats being killed.
That is how we haveChristianity.
We have Christianity based onthe foundation of martyrs.
That ain't cute, that ain'tsexy.
But in the 21st century,because we can, you know, have
on some Balenci's and we forgetthat we are part of a history

(13:37):
that is built in trauma, that isbuilt in chaos lies deceit,
chaos lies deceit that westernchristianity has so many layers
that when we look at, from thecrusades to colonialism, that we
have been a people that havebeen traumatized, trying to get
to a place of peace with thecreator that, at the same time,

(13:58):
sovereignly allowed it right.

Speaker 3 (14:01):
That's one thing about you that I that I'll say.
It's like you feel like such asafe place for people who are
outside of the normal bounds ofthe Christian church.
I feel like you representsomething that people feel like.
Man, I'm down with Kirk, I likewhere he's at, but it's because
of what you just articulated.
You are not this fake Christian.

(14:21):
He's kind of like you know,it's all cute and cuddly, like
you keep it real.
Why do you think you're likethat?
What is it about?
Your artistry, your life, yourministry that like gets you to a
place where you don't feel likeyou have to say, man, it's all
together, it's all perfect, likewhat, what about it?

Speaker 1 (14:38):
Where's my camera?
I'm going to say like Jesus ismy medicine and you need me to
be on my medicine.

Speaker 2 (14:49):
That's what it is.

Speaker 1 (14:50):
That's what it is.
I am very clear that myequilibrium would be really in a
state of chaos if it hadn'tbeen, and I think what was
really dope about my coming upis that Jesus had my heart
before he had my soul.

Speaker 4 (15:09):
Where did that come from, Like where did your
relationship with Jesusoriginate?

Speaker 1 (15:13):
Here's what happened, being a long once again.
Gertrude was 64 years old whenshe adopted.
I was a four-year-old kid.
Gertrude wasn't taking me tothe park.
There was no company comingover because the whole
neighborhood was older people.
Now maybe some of theirgrandkids, great-grandkids,
would come over from time totime.
We'd get to play you know, whatI'm saying, but for the most
part it was me and her.

(15:33):
She was a church lady, so she'dbe singing, you know, washing
dishes, singing hymns.
We were always at.
There was this aroma of Jesus,always in the house, right,
always in the house.
So for me, as a kid that didnot have a playmate or a friend,
jesus quickly became okay,she's talking about Jesus, she

(15:56):
can't see him, I can't see him.
Well, he can be my friend too.
So early on as a kid, I'd bethe kid that would climb on top
of the house, because you know,little hood trap houses, you can
jump on top of right, you canjump on top of the roof you know
saying you get a good tree limband go top of the roof and I
would get up there at night andjust talk to jesus.
I would talk to jesus all thetime.

(16:16):
What would you talk about?
You know, just.
You know just saying thingslike I love you, or you know,
you know um, you know, you knowwhere you at, I'm thinking about
you and you know, you know, doyou think about me what?

Speaker 2 (16:29):
That's so.

Speaker 1 (16:30):
I didn't have no friends.
I didn't have.
I lived in an olderneighborhood, bro.
There was no friends.
Everybody was on Bengay,everybody had wigs and you know,
and dentures.
You know it was.
I'm telling you.

Speaker 4 (16:47):
Did you?
I mean, what you're saying isreally gut-wrenching and
emotional, yeah no, it really is.

Speaker 2 (16:52):
I don't want to be Debbie Downer Did you wonder
where your parents were.

Speaker 4 (16:55):
I'm trying to really get back to that moment, because
people hear these stories, andthey definitely hear these
stories from people that assumeare famous or celebrities or
Christians, and they don'tunderstand the journey.
You know what I mean and whatmakes somebody who they are, or

(17:16):
the joy you exude on that stagesimply because of those moments
on the roof, yes, or thoseChristmases where you didn't
have it that day.

Speaker 2 (17:24):
That's good, or?

Speaker 4 (17:25):
now that you have a family.
That's good, that's good.
And why it means so much to you, because you always wanted that
hug from a sibling.
That's right.
When you bring words to lifelike this, it really gives
people a different viewpoint onwho you are.
So it's like I rememberwondering what my dad was.
You know what I mean.

(17:45):
I remember those moments oflike man, I quit playing
football because I got to tacklehard and you know, when I went
home, my dad wasn't there.

Speaker 2 (17:57):
No one told you to go back out, nobody told me to go
back out.

Speaker 4 (17:59):
I told my mom I ain't want to play no more.
She said all right, you ain'tgot to play football no more.
But my best friend, when he gothit hard, his dad was at home.
He said boy, get up and hit himharder.

Speaker 1 (18:08):
So it's those small little things.

Speaker 4 (18:11):
So for you, in those moments, you're on the roof,
you're still seeing these TVshows.
You see these parents.
Are you asking God moregut-richly, where are my parents
?
Where's my dad?
Where's my mom?

Speaker 1 (18:23):
you know, first of all, that's, that's, that's an
amazing question, amazingquestion.
Interestingly, the the, theidea of him in those moments,
really became enough.

Speaker 3 (18:39):
In those moments, when we did kingdom I remember
calling norm I was like why kirk, why?
Why does Kirk have so manypeople in the studio with him?
Cause you like people, justcome by to hang out.
It was like and you loved ityou stop a session, come in,
come in, come in, come in.
And I like hearing where youcome from and hearing the
loneliness and hearing like youbeing best friends with jesus

(19:02):
sitting on the roof.
It's like I think you just wantto be the thing that you didn't
have to other people.
That's intentional, right, likethat's is.

Speaker 1 (19:11):
I think there's a duality to it.
Is I think that?
Yes, yes, no doubt it is that,and then it is.
Also, I find music has anotherlayer of seasoning essence when
it is in the process ofcommunity.

Speaker 2 (19:26):
When it's made in the process, like that.

Speaker 1 (19:28):
When it's being cooked in the process of
community.
So you see those people beingthere as a part of your process.
When I have people come in, I'mlooking at necks, I'm looking
at heads, I'm looking at faces.
I'm looking to see who'sbopping, who's patting their
foot.
Do I see a tear?
Okay, I don't.
I'm looking to see who's who'sbopping, who's patting their
foot, who's?
Look, do I see a tear?

(19:48):
Okay, I don't see a tear, do I?
Okay?
I wonder how this is feeling inthe room.

Speaker 2 (19:54):
That, that's it's intentional, so that contributes
to the songwriting process.
So when I've come by you'resaying I have like points on the
songs, like because essentiallyI've contributed you become
five percent, you become a testcommunity yeah, it's your group
study.
Yeah, exactly it was a tiktokbefore.
Exactly it's like a tiktok.
Does that ever bite you, though?

(20:15):
Like does that ever go too far,where suddenly you have so many
opinions, so many thoughts,that it's almost like?

Speaker 4 (20:21):
you think people actually give negative opinions
to kirk in the studio?

Speaker 1 (20:23):
yes, yes, it's because those are not the people
that I invite those are not thepeople that I invite, it's I
and it's I include, you know,just the people that have been
around so long, so they have anan invested interest in the
journey.
You know I'm talking aboutpeople 20, 30 years.
Those are the people he'stalking about coming back.

(20:46):
And that is necessary for me isbecause I'm never one to
automatically assume something'sgood.
I need to feel what it feelslike in a room to be able to
know what needs to change.
And here's the thing I don'talways ask opinions.
A lot of times I'm justwatching the response and then
I'll make the thing.

Speaker 4 (21:05):
I don't always ask opinions A lot of times.
I'm just watching the responseand then I'll make the changes.
I do want to go back to aquestion we was talking about
just a little bit earlier, whereI was asking you about the
questions you were asking Jesus.
Yeah man, like and like.
Like I said, you know, I feltdeeply the absence of my dad in

(21:26):
my life, especially as I gotolder.
It's apparent in me, if youknow me, and I think, as you
talk about those conversationsthat you're having on the roof
and just hearing you, man, Ithink oftentimes we see lack the
wrong way, like I don't hearyour story and see lack.

(21:47):
I hear your story and seeabundance in different areas you
know what I mean and so give methe morning, like because you
lack parents.
Your relationship with jesus wasdeeper yes because you put yes.
What we would generallyinappropriately assign to our
parents, you directly assign tohim Automatically.

(22:08):
So it was perfect.
When you were sad, you went toJesus.
When you were hungry, when youneeded a companion, you went to
Jesus.

Speaker 1 (22:17):
You did that from a very young age.
That's what.

Speaker 4 (22:19):
I mean you had an abundance Off the rip.
I was like that off the rip.

Speaker 1 (22:24):
That's why I said he had my heart before he had my
soul yeah yeah, yeah, and andand and.
What is very interesting aboutwhat norman says so eloquently
is the dichotomy of it as wecontinue to matriculate through
life.
If it's, it's because, if jesusand the symbols and the

(22:44):
environment of Jesus that nowbecomes church or religious
culture, if you're young andJesus is a surrogate, now that
you get older and the church andchurch culture becomes a
surrogate, that's when thingsbecome now gray and they can
become problematic, becausethere are certain things that
the church deems as biblicalthat's more cultural within the

(23:08):
framework of church.
It's not always theological, itis.
It is the isogeeting of momentsor the weaponization of moments
, whether it's slavery ormarriage or giving.
So if people did not grow upwith parents, now you can see
why they're so controlled bywhat is being said behind the
pulpit.
It's because that surrogatementality continues to exist.

Speaker 4 (23:32):
Expound on that.
You gave three examples.
I think people will agree, justto agree.
Or they'll say oh, kirk issaying we don't need marriage
anymore.

Speaker 1 (23:42):
Let me give context more.
Give some context on that, ifyou're younger and if you're a
young individual like me, whereyour introduction to
Christianity had more of asurrogate dynamic and you saw it
more parental, that means thatit's going to be very hard for
anybody to tell you that whatyou are hearing, seeing and
thinking about that ideal iswrong, because you're speaking.

(24:04):
It's almost like in the blackculture.
It don't matter if Big Mama hada fourth grade education,
whatever Big Mama said at thattable.
That's the truth.
There's an authority there.

Speaker 2 (24:14):
Yes.

Speaker 1 (24:15):
Yeah, and Big Mama could be flat out wrong, but
because it's Big Mama, that'sright.
Ain't nobody questioning whatBig Mama said.
So I'm saying that that type ofauthoritarian ideal continues
as you matriculate in your faith, and the only place that you
matriculate in the faith ischurch culture.

Speaker 4 (24:34):
I get it.

Speaker 1 (24:35):
So then the pastors and the environments and the
institutions, whatever they nowbegin to say, that's truth, that
is truth.
That is truth, no matter howthey said, no matter the
construct in which they said.
So you must maneuver like that.
For example, there were many ofus myself, you know, even
though I have an incredible,amazing, powerful woman.

(24:59):
There are a lot of us whetherit was men that were dealing
with homosexuality of us,whether it was men that were
dealing with homosexuality.
There was a generation that yougot married to try to fix sin,
because of the narrative of thechurch and you're not going to
argue with it, because of thattype of that type of
authoritarian uh um, mother,father, figure that the church

(25:20):
represented for so many peoplethat were deficient of it.
So that does not mean thatmarriage is wrong.
That does not mean that givingis wrong.
That does not mean thatdenominations are wrong, but in
the wrong hands they can quicklybecome weaponized.
That's what I meant.

Speaker 2 (25:37):
Yeah, when did you?
You know, cause you have had along career.
A lot of people only know thesolo artist, Kirk.

Speaker 1 (25:44):
Franklin, it's all about solo A solo artist is
crazy.

Speaker 4 (25:48):
I want to say that for a quick second.
I want to, just like Kirk is.
So Kirk gets so insightfulsometimes.
So for me it's like when youeven uh, I was going to ask, can
a good thing, weaponized, bebad?
Like, can something God calledgood, even weaponized, become

(26:10):
bad?
Yes, sir.

Speaker 1 (26:13):
We see it with chattel slavery.
We see how scripture was used.
If every church in Americaduring segregation would have
agreed that chattel slavery wassin, slavery would have never
existed in North America.
If every church would havecollectively said that slavery
was a sin.
Just a sin I'm talking aboutwith no political engagement at

(26:37):
all, just collectively.
Because during the Eisenhoweradministration the evangelical
movement or the Christian rightmovement was already advancing
in America that it had so muchinfluence on the ideas of people
as much as politics that if thechurch in America collectively
would have said slavery,especially chattel slavery, is a

(27:00):
sin, it could have neverexisted in America.
It could have never so.
So yes, it was weaponized andit became a very bad thing.
I remember during the 80s and90s about the purity movement.
You remember the?
movement the purity movement wasso focused on what to not do
that's right that people did notknow what to do.
That's right.
When they got married and yousaw marriage begin to

(27:21):
dissimilate.
Yes, yes, so I believe too muchof anything good can be bad.

Speaker 4 (27:29):
That's interesting.
How do you reconcile that with?
Devil gets out of door.

Speaker 1 (27:32):
Good it's because you have to realize that you're
still wired for it, that Paulsays that eternity still exists
in the hearts of man and as muchas we like every human being
and every individual that is ahuman has a God.

(27:53):
No one is absent of a God,because we were divinely
designed to have one.
And so that means that if wehave God consciousness, we have
God consciousness, we have Godfocus, and that God focus will
always lean to the pursuit ofsomething good, whatever your
good is, and so that's theduality of not always, you know

(28:15):
that that's what we're not amonolith even in our approach,
but we are designed to wantsomething bigger and better, and
so that's the pursuit of good.
Now, now the problem is is goodin society becomes subjective?
That's the challenge.
Is that your good is not mygood?
And then we start building allthese other constructs that also

(28:36):
become a very authoritarianmindset that has to be
deconstructed as well.

Speaker 2 (28:44):
When did you start this process?

Speaker 4 (28:46):
I was about to say, deconstruction is a hot topic
issue it's a firebrand word, ithas a lot of connotation to it.

Speaker 2 (28:53):
But again, people don't know, People don't agree
about what that means, right?
People are saying I'mdeconstructing my faith and
they're really just asking Godquestions that I think are
healthy to ask.
Other people are deconstructinghaphazardly.
I was just showing my kids theother day a video of building
implosions and how they teardown a building, and they do it
systematically.
Engineers have to set where thedynamite is going to go so that

(29:16):
it implodes properly.
Otherwise, if you just blow itup, it falls every other way and
causes chaos.
And there's a way todeconstruct something in a way
that is helpful and then there'sjust a way to be destructive,
and I think a lot of peopleright now think they're
deconstructing in a constructiveway, but they're really just
destroying the faith.

Speaker 1 (29:35):
Yeah Well, and I'm going to be very candid with you
, I think that the resolve tothat is because we're mere
mortals and the human experienceis very messy, it's very broken
, it's our species is stilltrying to figure out this idea
of mortality and immorality.

(29:56):
No, no, no, no, not immoralityWith mortality.
Right, we're still trying tofigure out the idea of mortality
From the beginning of mankind.
Think about it.
There was a time that the sunwas a god, and then the
evolution of understanding.
It sounds okay, no, that's nota god, that's just a big, fiery
red thing.
Um, the evolution was that theearth was one thing and this.
So, as we continue to evolve inour species, the, the, the, the

(30:19):
consciousness of who we are andwho god is is always changing
and morphing to these otherideas.
So the case for God is also inthe hands of God.
So we allow the process ofdeconstruction.
Let it be what it is.
It's going to be messy overhere, it's going to be

(30:40):
problematic over here, but Godis not that weak of a God.
He still figures it out in theend.
We saw that during theEnlightenment.
During the Enlightenment wasthe rise of atheism.
So you know, and, and we saw it.
Where, where, where, where,where we, we have this atheistic
, agnostic view of society intime.
But then we had this remnantand during the Billy Graham

(31:01):
moment, you know, we saw, we sawthe rise of the Jesus movement
in the 70s.
So it's always coming backaround, right.
Nothing new is really under thesun.
So if people are deconstructed,I think it's good.
I think some church doorsshould be closed, tore down and
be rebuilt in the way that it'snot about the building but it's
about Jesus.

Speaker 2 (31:22):
What do you say to the believer who says no, no,
we're called to contend for thefaith.
Then, like what is contendingfor the faith look like in the
face of allowing people tohonestly and authentically
deconstruct or question andchallenge, they're contending
for the faith.
Doing that is a contend.

Speaker 1 (31:39):
Yes, yeah, yes, yes.
That's what we saw in MartinLuther, that's what we saw in
the Protestant Reformation,that's what we saw in Calvin,
that's what we saw in Arminius.
We see this historically, thatthere are these ideals that we
have tension with.
Did God find us or did we findGod Right?
You know, calvin is saying one,arminius is saying another.

(32:00):
You know, did we get saved ordid Jesus save us?
Did I choose to be saved or didJesus just automatically?

Speaker 2 (32:07):
orchestrate my steps.

Speaker 1 (32:08):
Yeah so and so, whatever the case is, it is
historically been deconstruction.
These individuals weredeconstructing.
Augustine was deconstructing,alexander was deconstructing,
tertullian was deconstructing.
They were all deconstructors.

Speaker 2 (32:26):
Tertullian was deconstructing.
They were all deconstructors.
That's good.
Yeah, I'm going to say this.
You're not going to like itbecause you don't like
compliments like that, but Idon't know many other artists in
our space that can have aconversation like this, and I
don't mean from the standpointof a heart posture, but heart
plus education, plus studying,plus research, plus

(32:48):
self-awareness.
That's because I can't sing.
If you could sing, you wouldn'thave time.

Speaker 1 (32:52):
I have a lot of time on my hands.
I have a lot of time on myhands.

Speaker 2 (32:58):
But like when did that become a part of it?
Is that part of your?

Speaker 1 (33:02):
arsenal.
I became challenged, yeah, whenmy faith started being
challenged, because you know Godand his plan in my life, I
spent a lot of time in my careerin non-Christian environments,
and in non-Christianenvironments I would have my
faith challenged, having myfaith challenged by the five
percenters, by the black HebrewIsraelites.
I was always having my faithchallenged.
So around about 30, when I was35, 36, 37, I started really

(33:26):
getting into apologetics and Iwould even have a professor from
, from, from, uh, from, uh, froma theological university, as I
would pay him uh, just to just,uh, just to tutor me in
apologetics.
And and so I just really wantedto be able to understand the
historical context of why Ibelieve what I believe.
Because, an African-American, wehave had religious ideals

(33:50):
weaponized against us so much,and so I wanted to be able to
understand the ugliness in thehistory of my faith but then
also understand the historicalauthenticity of my faith, so
that I can be able to do bothends, to be able to acknowledge,
yeah, there's some BS overthere, but here's the real
historical truth of it over here, because a lot of people don't
know that there is past theemotions, past Jim Crow, past

(34:14):
slavery, that there is real,authentic truth that the first
Christians that Europe did notinfluence Africa, africa
influenced Europe.
That's a historical fact.
You would never know that justrunning around shouting in
church.
And so I needed to be able tohave that.
And then I wanted to also beable to have moments where, even
musically that you know, Iunderstand that we know what

(34:36):
we're talking about it's becausejust too emotive for me was not
going to be enough.

Speaker 2 (34:41):
So it wasn't to be able to debate other people, it
was for your own conviction.

Speaker 1 (34:50):
Most not going to be enough.
So it wasn't to be able todebate other people, it was for
your own conviction.
Most apologists always startwith their own fear of faith.
Think about every movementstarts with somebody that once
in that movement, that wastraumatized by it.
When you look at MothersAgainst Drunk Tribes, think
about it.
It started by somebody who losta child you know.
So every movement in our timealways kind of advanced by the
trauma that happened in it.
It's because that's what setsyour trajectory of trying to

(35:13):
gather the information foryourself.
And the more you learn, themore it's hard to contain the
knowledge and so it reallybecomes the language in which
you speak.
Yeah, but I was on that roofand then see, we also had a

(35:33):
little raggedy piano in thehouse.
So I think that is the reasonwhy the language was not as much
about where's my mom and daddyIs that I think that the roof
conversations were the continuumof the piano things.
You know, I'm saying like Iwould write a song.
I wrote a song as a kid.
Rain him, undisket me down.
When you're not around, I needsomeone to hold to comfort in my

(35:59):
soul.
Stay with me until the summer.
I promise you'll never loveanother.
So by the time I'm getting onthe roof I'm just continuing
that conversation like it wasvery romantic, like my
conversations with him.
They were very romantic.
It was a very romantic lovethinking about and just the

(36:19):
feeling and and then see innature for me was always the
confirmation that who I wastalking to is real, like birds
and like all of them, the starsin the sky, this just a numerous
amount of the stars in the sky,were amazing to me.
So you know, it's like man,look at you know.
So, so, so the beauty in whichI in in the environments in

(36:41):
which the conversation washappening also was the.
It was the canvas of thelanguage as well.
You know, if you're, you know,you know you're up there at 11,
12 o'clock at night and you gotthis soft summer wind blowing on
your face, leaves are movingand you're looking at star sky.
Well, it's like, well, you knowthis is a romantic moment to
have a conversation with thisfriend of mine.

(37:02):
So you know I was alwayslooking for those moments.
I've always been an outsidetalk to Jesus guy as a kid.

Speaker 3 (37:10):
I'd love to take us from the young Kirk Franklin,
who Jesus had his heart and theneventually got his soul, to the
Kirk Franklin that decided tobecome an artist.
And I want to talk about thatevolution and like, maybe, what
your goals were, what you saw,what your, what your um, what
were you inspired by?
What did you want to do why?

(37:31):
Why did you become an artist, agospel music artist?

Speaker 1 (37:35):
man, I just hate to sound so bad like a Debbie
Downer, bro.
I just no like, like, like,like.
I just I'm serious like no cap.
It just feels like, bro.
I'm serious Like no cap.
It just feels like, bro, youain't got no sunlight to your
store.
My life has always been led byan invisible hand pushing me in
my back.

(37:56):
I was too broke to have dreams.
I was too broke to have dreamsLike I didn't have dreams.
I didn't broke to have dreamsLike I didn't have dreams.
I didn't dream of beinganything.
I didn't.
I would only respond to theresponse of people.
I started playing the pianowhen I was four years old.

(38:16):
Gertrude would recycle cans andnewspapers to pay for my piano
lessons.
We want government aid,government cheese, really,
really poor.
And so, as I started playingthe piano in the communities, in
the church communities, theywere called, they were looking
at me like a little prodigy andit was weird.
Now, mind you, I didn't know itand gertrude watch this.

(38:36):
She was not the type ofindividual that was affirming,
because you know that generationthey weren't going to affirm.
You know oh you good son, that'sgood, you know good.
I never got that, I bro, soshe'd hear you play.
She was born in 1908.
Ain't nobody listen?

Speaker 2 (38:57):
you're not far removed from the cotton field
ain't no participation, trophies, nothing nothing.

Speaker 1 (39:02):
There was no affirming coming back as a kid,
so.
But what I noticed is that thelack of approval and acceptance.
I was looking for her.
I saw the reaction of peoplelike, for example, if I would go
to a summer camp and if there'sa piano, because your summer
camps kids are playingbasketball and sports, and I
couldn't play sports and allthat I'm.
You know, I wasn't good at that, but if there was a piano in

(39:23):
the cafeteria or something and Ijumped on the piano, now I'm
the center of attention, like Istarted to notice early on.
Whenever I touched those keys,I was no longer invisible.
I was no longer invisible toanybody.
So, you know, you naturallysubconsciously lean into that
and so the more I leaned into it, the more attention it brought

(39:46):
me.
But I never thought, oh, thiscould current, this could turn
into something.
No, I would just.
I was happy enough, just withthe attention, because I wasn't
getting the attention anywhereelse.
So that was my, that was mymeal.
I was good after.
So what started to happen is, asI continued to grow and then I

(40:07):
was also influenced bymainstream music.
I was listening to music on theradio of Steely Dan, I was
listening to the Bee Gees.
I was listening to the Jackson5.
I was listening to theCommodores.
So I was listening to thosesongs and I would take those
songs and I would remix themwhen I would go to church.
I was take those songs and Iwould remix them when I would go
to church.
Like I was eight years old and Iwent to church on a Saturday

(40:28):
for youth church and I went he'scoming back, I know he's coming
back.
I said that Jesus is comingback.
He said that he is coming back.
You know I was like oh, that'sgreat.
You know, all the kids are likeoh, that's great, you know.
And so it's like oh, they likethat, let me go get another one.

(40:50):
You know what I'm saying, andso I would.
Just, I was.
Everything I did was in responseto what I did.
So I never thought there wouldbe so as I.
And then I got saved when I was15.
A good friend of mine got shotand killed.
He was the good kid.
We were out here wild and outbeing promiscuous, smoking and
trying to be just whatever, andwhen he got killed I knew that

(41:14):
my life was out of control.
And then that summer of 85 iswhen I trusted Christ with my
heart.
When I did that, then all of asudden there were songs that
started coming to my head,christian songs, gospel songs.
And then, because I was aminister of music at a church, I
was playing for churches and Iwas always over the choir.
Well, when those songs wouldcome into my head, then I would

(41:36):
go to church and I would trythose songs out on the choir and
they would love them.
I said okay, but I didn't.
And once again, again, it wasnever.
I could do something.
But no, that never happened.
I just loved the local responseof people, because the local
response for people made me feelnot invisible, no, and that's

(41:59):
all I needed.
But as I continued to do, thatword got around in different
churches, different communities.
How you know, this young kid isgood, his songs are good,
whatever.
And then, because I was a breakdancer, then I would be up
trying to direct a choir.
I'd be moving around too much,I'd get kicked out of churches.
I'd be sat down in church, I'dhave preachers talk about me in
church, but I would just.

(42:21):
But at the same time, when Iwas up doing it, I could see the
girls responding a certain way.
Or people in the congregationlike oh, look at that little boy
, that little boy up theremoving.
So it's like it didn't matterhow much they set me down, you
got what you needed from that.
I got what I needed.
They didn't have to invite meback ever again.
In that moment I got what Ineeded.

Speaker 4 (42:40):
Oh, wow, even later on, I got what I needed.
I really like where you'regoing and I like how you talking
about it, because, as you'retalking through the journey and
I think a lot of people arehearing and it's something we
talked about on earlier podcastsit's the, it's what I like to
call the difference, it's theexperience and the different

(43:01):
reason why we do music in theblack church and it's more than
just and this is going to soundlike what it sounds like it's
more than just worship andsacrifice to God.
For a lot of us, it is hope, itis a way of life because we

(43:25):
have no other opportunity.
And to many who see this, youknow, especially given the
Maverick audience, they'll saybut I think, like what does he
mean?
I mean like some people can'teat unless they go and play keys
at church in certaincommunities, unless they go and
play keys at church in certaincommunities.

(43:45):
And to a lot of people, you know, especially today, like we're
talking back 1980s, early 70s,like you got to put time and
context when you're having theseconversations, because today
that's such a foreign concept.
Yeah, you know 2025.
Yeah, that wasn't such aforeign concept in the 1970s, in
the 1980s.
You know, literally musicians.

(44:07):
They had to do what they had todo, and even going and working,
that wasn't enough.
And so when you say you didn'thave hopes and dreams based on
doing this, there's genuinenessin that, because there weren't a
lot of people coming out ofchurch becoming stars back then.
But a lot of people coming outof church becoming stars back,
then you know what I mean.
But a lot of people don't know.

Speaker 1 (44:27):
You know we're having this conversation as people
that work in music, but to givecontext to the audience of what
you're saying and why it'sbelievable is because during
that time there was a lack ofoverall lack of opportunity and,
at the same time, if I canpiggyback on something that you
said, powerful is that, becausethe audience watching this is so
diverse, some things that wetalk about are going to be

(44:49):
foreign to them, are reallyrooted in culture, and, and I'll
give you the best example, and,and I want you to know, um,
norm and and and you guys uphere, man, is that, uh, that
that, that kingdom tour withmaverick city was one of the
biggest highlights of my career,because, I mean, it happened
when I was 52 years old and youknow, you know it, there's a

(45:14):
lifespan of this and you don'tknow, like, what's been weird
for me is I don't, sometimes Idon't know when I'm gonna need
to get off the train.
It's like you know, okay,what's time to get up now.
Well, no, they just go.
Okay, maybe I need to get.
Okay, well, she wants me to doa feature, well, you know.
So I've always been trying tofigure out when do I get off the
train, and so when I got thecall in january of january, of

(45:35):
22, about the math two, it'slike man, this is crazy, you
know, and and so it was anincredible thing.
So, thank you so much, thankyou, thank you.
It was an incredible thing, sothank you so much.
Thank you, thank you.
It was an incredible moment,man.

Speaker 2 (45:45):
What are your thoughts?

Speaker 1 (45:46):
Hold up, though.
I want to talk about thiscultural dynamic that he said,
that you said so well, I'llnever forget, and we all know
that the Maverick community,especially at that moment, was
very strong in the non-AfricanAmerican community.
You had white people, you hadHispanic people and sometimes
they over-indexed more than wedid, right.

(46:08):
So on the Maverick tour, I meanon the Kingdom tour, I stood
often in front of a lot of whitepeople.
Right, my people showed up andthey showed up in groves and I
loved that.
But there were a lot of whitepeople.

(46:29):
And I'll never forget there's asong that I do, called Imagine
Me, and God gave me this song.
I was about 35 years old, asong called Imagine Me, and I
remember every night on thekingdom tour when I would sing
Imagine Me and I would see thereaction of the white people.
It was very interesting thatfor me they were very
introspective, like oh, like, oh, man, you know, you know like
it had that type of emotion forthem and it was.

(46:49):
It was interesting for me toget that type of reaction for
them because I was not in thatspace when I wrote it and so it
was like that is veryinteresting.
We had a day off on that tourwhere there was a concert that
we had booked before the tourstarted and it was a big
celebration of a sorority.
A sorority booked me inIndianapolis, indiana I don't

(47:10):
know if you remember that and sowe flew to do this big, like it
was thousands and thousands ofAfrican-American women, and I
performed.
Imagine Me in front of all theseblack women, the weeping, the
tears, tears, the sorrow thatyou could feel.
I mean women were laying oneach other, just crying.

(47:32):
And because I've been on themaverick tour now for about a
whole five, six weeks, I've beenout outside of my community for
a while and I remember lookingat that reaction versus every
night on the kingdom Tour whereonce again it was over indexing
in the non-African Americancommunity, and I remember being
on stage in front of all thosesisters crying like that,

(47:52):
weeping, and I said that's whereI was when I wrote the song and
I started to think about thedichotomy of it all and the
resolve that I came with withthe different cultures.
Black people did not have theopportunity to respond the way
that the white people responded.
It's because black people werenot able to hear.

(48:14):
Imagine me with their hands upbecause they were too busy using
their hands to wipe their eyes,and so that's the posture of
the different communities.
Is that one has often beenfreer to have their hands up
where the other community neededthose same hands to wipe tears.
Wow, and so it speaks to whatyou were saying.

Speaker 2 (48:36):
No, well you on this.
Yeah, it is spot on.
I think that was.
I was reading something a whileback talking about the
difference in how black peoplein America and white people in
America see God.
And they see the same God, butdifferent sides of him,
different facets of him, basedon who they needed him to be or
what captivated them.
Right, that that historicallyin America, white Americans have

(48:59):
been captivated by this ideathat God is great, you know,
like that he's big, that he'sawesome, that he's bigger than
them.
And then the black people inAmerica have been captivated by
the idea of God as a deliverer,as a defender, as someone who
frees you from the oppressor, sothat you literally see that in
the music.
Right, how great is our Godversus?
Take me to the king.

(49:19):
Like, how we talk about God andhow we talk to God is a direct
result of what we've encounteredas a people and what we need
him to be and what we'veexperienced him as.
And I think one of thebeautiful things about Maverick
City and about you and on thattour, because I remember being
there in these arenas, whitepeople worshiping black people,
worshiping old, young, young andI realized this is probably the

(49:46):
first time in my two plusdecades of being in faith based
music where I've seen people beable to come together and engage
with God in a 360 kind of waythat, like white people could
see God from their vantage pointbut then also realize that
someone around the way wasexperiencing him from a
different vantage point.
Yeah, and I had been in a lot oflive settings and I had never
seen that.
I texted Norman at one pointwhen we were doing the, when
they were doing the it's Timetour, and we were in Nashville

(50:09):
at the Ryman and it was TashaCobbs, leonard and Katie Torwalt
and Taya and it was just all.
It was black and white.
And I looked around theaudience and it's older white
people grabbing the hand ofyounger black people and I
thought we don't do this inchurch.
I've been to a lot of concerts.
We don't do that.
And so I think, to speak towhat you're saying, this idea

(50:30):
that there's finally on theearth like a real 360 worship
experience where we can all tapin.
We can worship differently, butwe're worshiping the same God
and we can appreciate that theperson over there who has a
different life experience isalso worshiping the same God
that I am.
That didn't happen.
There was such a divide betweengospel CCM worship that there

(50:52):
was never going to be anopportunity because we thought
we were worshiping a differentGod.

Speaker 4 (50:57):
It's crazy when you mention the it's Time moment.
I remember the moment.
It almost just brought tears tomy eyes thinking about.
I don't know why it mattered tome so much.
It was one of the things.
It's time for something Godgave me verbally.
It wasn't my thing, I didn'tthink about it.
He gave it to me verbally.
He said my women matter.
I remember it.
I remember it spoke so loud tome.

(51:19):
I was in the shower.
He said they matter.
He said they matter.
He said all of these tours formen, and men only, I need
something for my daughters.
And he said it needs to bediverse.
And the level of tension I didit for nothing, I don't need to
make anything the level ofopposition that was against it
and just the naysay that wasagainst it.

(51:41):
And I remember we were in theRyman.
Tamela gets on stage and I seethese middle-aged suburban white
women trying to shout and then,uh, literally they're trying to
shout alongside with you know,when she gets up, and then tasha
gets up, she does her thing,tay gets up, she does oceans and
you just see the outpouring andthey're worshiping together.

(52:03):
And what it showed me was thatwhat has always been true and
something that we have to alwaysremember is I don't know if the
soul or the fabric of thechurch is the woman.
I don't know how you want toequate that, but it showed me

(52:26):
that what is in heaven is onearth.
We just have to be courageousenough to bring it together.

Speaker 2 (52:33):
So I think Well, and I think it's important even for
us to be, for black men sittinghere to honor women and honor
black women especially.
I mean, I think even in societyright now there's a lot going on
where that's not the narrativeand that's not the focus or
intentionality.
But, kirk, when you were talkingabout Imagine Me and how you
saw these women responding to itat the sorority event, it's

(52:56):
like right, because Kirk hasalways written music that
resonates in that space,especially for black women space
, especially for black women.
And it's interesting to me youknow, with you not having a
father in the house and thenGertrude raising you, that you
still somehow found a voice thatwas uniquely yours and your
relationship with God.
But I would probably submitthat you are a mouthpiece for a

(53:17):
lot of black women's experiencewith God in America and that's
unique because you're not awoman and that's not to take
anything away from from CeceWine and Zolanda and like the
black females in this space whoare also that.
But I think you give voice to alot of real feelings and it's
probably the intimacy you weretalking about with Jesus where
you said it's romantic.
It's like I have no masculinemacho, nothing with God.

(53:43):
You just were yourself.
Yes, do you feel like that'sconsistent with what you
experienced on the road or themessages you see from people
commenting and everything?

Speaker 1 (53:51):
Yes, yes, yes, and I would attribute that to being in
an environment with Gertrude,which is me and her, or just
being very in touch with my ownfemininity.
You know, just in my ownvulnerability as a man and I
always have I've been veryattuned into my emotions and and
I really hope that and it makesme very thankful when people

(54:13):
say that they can feel that inthe music is because I think you
should is that, is that the.
That's what makes the musicmusic.
Music is supposed to be.
You know it's, it's.
It's supposed to be hospitalcommentary.
Right, that is supposed to berehab commentary.

(54:35):
You know it's supposed to behighs and low, low commentary.
You know that the music shouldhave a song for everything a
human can feel.

Speaker 4 (54:47):
There should be a song.

Speaker 1 (54:49):
That's the beauty of music.

Speaker 2 (54:51):
That brings me to a really interesting point.
I think I've sent you this.
I had seen a video on TikTok ofa married couple that had just
enjoyed fellowship.

Speaker 1 (55:03):
He's so churchy.

Speaker 2 (55:07):
They just had sex.
They had sex Well and he's sochurchy and they just had sex,
they had sex well.
That's what that's where itwent, because he then rolled
over and started singing one ofyour songs and she said this is
what you feel right now.
What was he singing?

Speaker 3 (55:14):
smile I haven't seen this.

Speaker 2 (55:15):
yeah, no, it was really, when I tell you the man
and she was sort of really shesaid why are you singing this
right now?
He said this is what I feel andand I thought, okay, I've never
thought of Kirk's music in thatway, but I can Me either.
Lord help us.
But do you get, do you feellike you are the soundtrack to
people's lives?
Do you understand that?

Speaker 1 (55:33):
when people say that and I don't ever want to think
that or even even consideranything like that I'm good with
not knowing.
I'm good with not knowing a lotlot of things.
I think that too muchinformation can can pull away
from intentionality and I thinkthat that that there needs to be
an authentic, pure place in, in.

(55:53):
And you see it, all the time welike like, we always talk about
how that big artist there's noother album.
They do like that first albumbecause that first album they
spent their whole life writing,you know.
You know, sitting in the jailcell or sleeping in in the back
of the car or going to go to thepawn shop just to buy some food

(56:13):
.
That's why that first, you know, that's, that's what that
Alanis Morissette jagged littlepill record, you know I'm saying
, comes out.
It sells 18 million, you know.
Or the first Nirvana album, youknow, just has this, this, this,
this dust on it, you know.
Or the first nirvana album, youknow, just has this, this, this
, this dust on it, you know.
Or the chronic, you know, comesout and it's like you know what
in the world was dre thinking?
But but when you move to thenice neighborhood and you get

(56:36):
the.
You know, you lose a little bitof the grind.
You lose a little bit of thegrind and I think that that's
for me.
I enjoy not knowing the new andI and I and I'm very
comfortable with embracing thethorns, the struggles, the
stones, because they really dohave in a.

Speaker 3 (56:53):
They have a unique ability of keeping the pen full
of ink yeah, that's interestingbecause I remember, when you
know some the project we didtogether, I remember when we
kind of were seeing some of thenumbers and kind of getting some
of the reactions, it was like Ireally don't want to know that
that was your, that was yourresponse.
It's interesting that that itwas because you wanted to stay.

Speaker 1 (57:13):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, it's it's because it does affect
you, good or bad.
Yeah, it does affect you.
You know, like for years, foryears, I kept grammys in the in
the garage.
For years I kept plaques in thegarage.
It wasn't until we built thestudio.
And and you know when, when webuilt the studio back in 16, it
just kind of makes sense to putthem in there.

(57:34):
But for years anybody thatknows me they'll tell you all of
that crap was in garage closets.
All of it is because I didn'twant to become complacent, nor
did I ever want to becomeintimidated.
You know so.
Because I didn't want to becomecomplacent, nor did I ever want
to become intimidated.
You know so.
I just didn't want it to bepart of my daily aesthetic.

Speaker 3 (57:50):
So say more about the intimidated.
What do you mean by that?

Speaker 1 (57:53):
That you got to live up to that last thing, you know.
You know just just thatperformance anxiety, you know,
of trying to live up to whateverybody loves and that's like,
yeah, what everybody loved, andthat's like, yeah, I'd rather
just just just take all thestuff and put it in the closet
so so that I don't have to walk,walk every day being reminded
this is what the last one did,you know.
So you know, even even likeeven looking back on my career,

(58:16):
you know those moments were verygross, very, very, very gross.
I remember the first Grammy thatI won I was in the bed at home.
I was in the bed at home, Ididn't want to go, and some of
that is that false, falsereligious narrative is that?
Because a lot of the surrogateswere saying, stay humble, you

(58:37):
don't need to get caught up inall that.
And I didn't want to and Ididn't want to make the
surrogates, you know, mad.
I didn't want to.
I didn't want to disappoint thesurrogates.
Make the surrogates, you know,mad, I didn't want to.
I didn't want to disappoint thesurrogates.
So my first grammy, when I won,I was in the bed, wow what did
you do like?

Speaker 2 (58:51):
as you're in the bed, are you freaking out, are you?

Speaker 1 (58:54):
no, no, you don't know how to feel because the
surrogates, their voices, arevery powerful in your soul how
did you overcome that?

Speaker 4 (59:02):
it's a you know what I mean.
Like I, I do, I do.
I don't remember that time.
I was barely five years old.
But what I, what, what I'msaying is that, um, at what
point?
I mean your journey throughchristianity in america in the

(59:22):
1990s.
You know, at that time, I think, a survey said 93, between 90
and 93 percent of peopleidentified as Christians.
It was.
You know.
There were certain things thatwere just understood back then.
You know it was prayer inschool.
You went to church.
You know that was a totallydifferent time.
The level of what we call nowis religiousness and legalism

(59:48):
was at an all-time high.
Yes, it was, you know.
Yes, it was.
You having a little bit toomuch bass in your music was a
demon just walking in the church.

Speaker 1 (59:57):
Right yeah so.

Speaker 4 (01:00:00):
I ask you this because you parallel, you have
been able to come through thisjourney and, from then to now,
still have similar level ofrelevance, similar level of
success, the breakthrough.

(01:00:21):
What was the experience?
What was the who, was thementor that really I guess we
use the term deconstructed thatuh narrative in your life to
where you became, to the pointof you begin to live
authentically through.
All right, I am excited aboutthe grammys.
I'm excited my project isgetting appreciated.

(01:00:42):
I am, you know, I it ain't myGod, but I hope I win.
You know, like, how did that?
What was that process like?

Speaker 1 (01:00:49):
Well, now, when it comes to those things, I still
struggle, those things are stilla challenge for me, but I have
resolved internally that when itcomes to that space, I prefer
that.
For me, you know, as Paul says,says these members work at his
own soul salvation with fear andtrembling.
For Kirk it works that I leanthe other direction, even if

(01:01:14):
it's a little bit of error, youknow, I mean, you know, you know
like, like, like, like, even ifit has a little, you know.
You know maybe doing too much,you know I'm okay with that
because I'd rather lean in.
I don't want to know, I want tosee, I struggle with it, I want
to.
Okay, you know it's, I'm okaywith.
Living in that tension isbecause, as a christian, I
believe that true, authenticchristianity in this world is

(01:01:39):
lived in the tension.
And I believe, if you don'tthat, that if you're comfortable
or if you're depressed, you'reliving that the pendulum has
swung too far, the extreme.
I believe that truechristianity is lived in the
middle of the tension it's.

Speaker 2 (01:01:57):
I want to see the numbers but I don't want to see
yeah, right that I believethat's the christian life.

Speaker 1 (01:02:02):
that's right in real time.
That believe that's theChristian life in real time.
That's authentic Christianity.
I'm married, but man, she fine,that's authentic.
That's authentic.
Get away with me, bro, brother,I don't look at anything.

Speaker 2 (01:02:16):
Bro, bro, I can't help you.

Speaker 1 (01:02:19):
I don't even know what you're talking about.
You're talking another languagebecause she is fine.
I don't understand what's wrongwith what you're about.
You talking another languagebecause she is fine.
I don't understand what's wrongwith what you looking at.
So that is the real Christianexperience for me and anybody
that don't amen to that it's.
I'm not your guy.

Speaker 4 (01:02:36):
What'd he say, Kurt, he's like brother, I don't know
what you're talking about.

Speaker 1 (01:02:40):
I'm not your guy.
I love my wife, but she fine.

Speaker 4 (01:02:45):
Oh, I'm not your guy.
I love my wife, but she fine.
I don't understand why thatcan't be an honest, conversation
.

Speaker 3 (01:02:49):
That's good.

Speaker 1 (01:02:51):
Yeah, I don't understand that.
I don't understand the pastorsaying man, thank you, jesus,
for all these members.
Ooh Lord, I'm so strugglingwith getting that new Maybach
and I don't want to come up andlook like I'm Yo, yeah, you're
struggling.
Church, pay it off.
Giving is good.
Yeah, you're going to struggle.
It would scare me if you neversaid you ain't got no struggles.

(01:03:14):
That scares me.
Get me around people that gotstruggles.
Let me be around some folkthat's got some issues.
I'm more comfortable therebecause I know you're going to
live an authentic life.

Speaker 4 (01:03:27):
Yeah, so you prefer the authenticity of leadership
to help their parishionersthrough understanding that what
they're going through is real?

Speaker 1 (01:03:37):
We need models.
Yeah, and that's why peoplelove you.
Well, some love, some hate.
Well, yeah, very true.

Speaker 4 (01:03:46):
Yeah, I think that's good, because a lot of people
don't understand yourperspective because we have such
a perfectionism mandate on ourpastoral leaders.

Speaker 1 (01:03:55):
Yes, yeah, yeah, and that's birthed out of Puritanism
.
Remember the early stages ofChristianity, when they landed
on the soil?
It was Puritans that landedhere, and, and and.
In the name of Puritanism, wewere murdering Indians.
We were, we were, we were, wewere, we were over, indexing on

(01:04:17):
what purity looked like, what itmeant, and, and and.
This whole ideal is whatAmerican Christianity was rooted
in.
The early church fathers inAmerica were slave owners.
Christians, christian men thatwere building the church in
America, were slave owners.
Like.
What Bible are you reading?
What Bible?

(01:04:37):
Do you realize that, just withover the last 20 years, 25 years
, the Southern BaptistConvention just acknowledged
their historic past and theengagement of slavery in America
just 20 years ago.
Just 20 years ago, my God,there are planes and cell phones
.
20 years ago, and you justsaying, I'm sorry, no-transcript

(01:05:12):
.
Biblical sickness, sickness,biblical sickness.
Biblical illiteracy leads tobiblical sickness.

Speaker 2 (01:05:21):
Hmm, Is that one of the biggest dangers to us right
now in society, even asChristians?
Is it biblical literacy or thelack thereof?
Is it leadership?
Is it authenticity?
Is it morality, legalism, likewhat?
Do you think are some of thethings that are tearing it apart
when Norman says in the 90s itwas like 93 percent Christian,

(01:05:41):
well, like what happened.

Speaker 4 (01:05:42):
Well, today it's only about 41.

Speaker 1 (01:05:45):
I think that there is a strong, academic word, and it
may be a little heady and maybe absent of the simplicity that
sometimes scholarship sometimesrequires or allows, but that
word is honesty.

(01:06:07):
Honesty.
That's what's missing ishonesty, simple honesty.
Paul was the architect of theNew Testament church.
No one wrote as many letters,built as many churches as Paul.
And he's giving you the mandate.
He's giving you the syllabusfor grace.

(01:06:28):
He's laying out what thechurch's response should be to
grace and the transition of thelaw is.
Because, again, these were jews.
And so he's.
He's giving you a mandate forthis new understanding.
Because christianity was such anew idea right, that was in
that area of the peninsula,right, it was a new idea.

(01:06:48):
And in the middle of all ofthese writings about giving you
a blueprint of what grace shouldlook like and what
sanctification look like, hethen says in romans 7, he says
but I myself do not have thepower to do everything.
I'm telling y'all to do that,the very things I'm saying don't
do.
I still do not, I stillstruggle with not I'm thinking

(01:07:12):
about.
He's saying I do.
The level of honesty in thatthat gets whitewashed.
And I asked a lot of mytheological friends why don't we
really shed light on thatmoment with Paul?
He said because historically,especially Reformed theology in

(01:07:34):
America because you know theMacArthur's, the Piper's, you
know what I'm saying reformedtheology they don't want to give
a credence for sin.
So because of this desire tonot get people comfortable in
sin, you kind of downplay thosemoments that could give liberty.
But when you do that, you overindex to the extreme and so

(01:07:55):
people feel like I don't knowwhat to do because I've still
got those moments that couldgive liberty.
But when you do that, you overindex to the extreme and so
people feel like, well, I don'tknow what to do, but I'm still
got internal struggles.
So am I saved?
And a lot of people questiontheir salvation.
A lot of people are confused isbecause we live in a tension
that we do not acknowledge andthat's why you see this great
Exodus from Christianity.
That's so good, Because it doesnot possess honesty.

(01:08:15):
That's so good.

Speaker 4 (01:08:17):
That's so good.
People are so afraid of gracethat they over-index to what I
would consider legalism, or theyover-index toward truth, truth,
truth, truth, truth.

Speaker 1 (01:08:29):
Yeah.

Speaker 4 (01:08:29):
Because they're so afraid of people using grace as
a trampoline.
That's it.

Speaker 1 (01:08:32):

Speaker 4 (01:08:33):
That's it I think we have.
I would go as far as that.
We have a.
The problem is equally as badon each side.
Yes, I do believe that.
I do believe that, as we existhere today, the overall grace,
all love, all you know, you goodinclude, I think that community

(01:08:54):
, as is that is as entrenched asa response, and I do believe
the word that you've given forthis episode, or shall I say
this time period, is tension.
Yes, I think the tension of themoment, and where that tension,
like as you're talking, I'mthinking through my own life.
I think that's what most peopledo when they hear stories and

(01:09:15):
the brightest, most fulfillingmoments happen in tension.

Speaker 1 (01:09:19):
Yes, yes, you know they happen in tension.
That's so good.

Speaker 4 (01:09:23):
I will say one thing Do you believe success makes you
want to flee tension?

Speaker 1 (01:09:33):
It's, it's.
I think that tension has becomeso much part of my normal
construct.
I'm not even thinking like is Idon't think about success, nor
do I think about tension is Ithink I just think about just
trying to be is.
I think that it's the being now.
Do I war with success?
Do I have battles with failure?

(01:09:53):
Yes, I, I is.
I understand the dualities andthe dichotomies and even the
duplicities of it all, but Ifind myself even in my failures
and my mistakes.
I'm always trying to find backto the honest of Jesus.
Take me back, Jesus, take meback, Just take me back.

(01:10:19):
Let me find my heart back toyou.
And I believe that in thosemoments I have learned to rest
in.
I'm still okay because I stillwant him.
I still am not at a place whereI'm comfortable out here on my
own.
So, whether I win or lose, I'mdepressed, I'm up or down, I
still find it all of that,Whether, like I'll never forget
when the Kingdom Tour went tothe Dickies Arena in Fort Worth.

(01:10:42):
Fort Worth is my hometown andit's my first time ever playing
in this arena.
Like this arena's been up maybeabout seven years, six, seven
years.
It's pretty man, I saw it beingbuilt, because I'm from Fort
Worth so I would drive by it allthe time and it's, and you know
, and it's huge, and that firstkingdom tour sold it out and I
don't know if you can leave inmy dressing room and just kind
of sit in my dress for a minuteand just look it up and just say

(01:11:04):
to the lord thank you, I love.
You know, because it's such a,it was, it was such a big moment
.
But then I remember the verynext weekend we had to do the bt
awards and you know, and we'rein this tension, so you know
it's, you know, and I'm at theBET Awards, I confronted the
dude that owned the network thatmy son's show was on.

(01:11:25):
You know what I'm saying so youknow, we finished doing Kingdom
and Melodies and then I see thisNegro in the audience and I'm
like, bro, pull up, we need totalk.
You know what I'm saying, youknow shout out limit plumber
yeah, well, she was my camerashout out limit plumber we gotta

(01:11:46):
get okay, okay I just need tolet that breathe did you let
that breathe it?
Was breathing.

Speaker 3 (01:11:50):
It's the tension.

Speaker 1 (01:11:50):
It's the tension, it's the tension it's all about
the pause, right?
So, so, once again, I encouragesongwriters, preachers,
evangelicals, evangelists,whatever your call to the
kingdom is chase the tension.
Chase the tension.
You're not salt.

(01:12:10):
If you're not in the tension,you're not salty.
You're not salty, you'resitting on the sideline.
You're waiting for Jesus tocome back.
Be salty.
Lose something, be laughed at.
Lose a limb, get canceled.
Mess up some stuff, becriticized.

Speaker 3 (01:12:28):
Be salty, Be salty, I love that you know.
For this side of the roomthat's like we're both cringing,
but I love that you know.

Speaker 2 (01:12:36):
For this side of the room that's like the.
I'm cringing.

Speaker 3 (01:12:38):
We're both cringing, but I love that.
I love that.

Speaker 2 (01:12:41):
No, it scares me.

Speaker 3 (01:12:41):
Why are y'all cringing?
Why are y'all cringing Becauseokay to me, they're scared to
lose.

Speaker 1 (01:12:46):
I am, I'm scared.
I'm scared Because I think andwe talked about this before like
the two of you, you all, y'allhad an upbringing where, like,
what is there to lose?
What is there to lose?
That's how I was getting ready.
Ron tells me that ron, I'mgonna shout out to ron hill
manager, uh, junior, barry,gordy, um, um, is that the way

(01:13:06):
that I was raised and, and, and,and not learning more about my
brother?
Norm is that that fear oflosing does not exist in those
that were already born lost.
So, so, so we don't like, like,like I tell Ron, like I give
away so much money that Ron belike, hey, what we're going to
do when you retire.
It's almost like it's becauseI'm comfortable, like first

(01:13:29):
thing, norman, when he met me hewas like you ain't making no
money.
He's like I lost so muchrespect for you because I just
thought you had money.
He's like I lost so muchrespect for you because I just
thought you had money.
He said you ain't got no money.
It's because I have alwayswanted to create and I'll spend

(01:13:49):
it all on creating, becauseRiverside is not far removed
from me.
If I lost it all, I couldliterally go back to Riverside
tomorrow and be good.
I could be good in aone-bedroom trap house.
It is so weird how you're notfar removed from those.
I'm going to be honest with you.
There are some times thatsuccess is so painful you prefer

(01:14:13):
.

Speaker 4 (01:14:14):
Yes, Lord, Come on somebody.
You prefer Go back where I was.

Speaker 1 (01:14:16):
Let me tell you something.
Yes, lord, I've owned somebody.
You prefer?
Go back where I was, you prefer?
Let me tell you something Iwould prefer some Roman noodles,
my guy.

Speaker 4 (01:14:21):
Hey, really.

Speaker 1 (01:14:22):
Oh, my boy, you haven't.
Let me tell you something manSuccess because there's more
money, there's more bills,there's more scrutiny, there's
more explanation, there's moretemptations, there's more
depressions and more highs andmore lows.
When you broke, you only gotmaybe about one or two emotions.
You only got, and that'sprobably hungry and sleepy.

(01:14:44):
You know what I'm saying?
Yeah, that's all you got.

Speaker 4 (01:14:47):
I always say yes, I always tell people I'm just a
country nigga from Sandervilleman, yeah, At the end of the day
, behind all of it, I'm just acountry, nigga from Sanderville.

Speaker 1 (01:14:58):
You can leave my nigga in too Pause.

Speaker 4 (01:15:01):
And I think the tension that you speak to,
because people always ask youknow, the number one question we
get and not to say, we followyour motto a lot because it's
not directly in your.
But I think that one of themissional things behind that JJ
and I have landed on, that wejust have accepted, is that,

(01:15:22):
like the collaborations andstuff, you know people, oh, why
would y'all, you know what, what?
How did it glow real?
And then you know they cool,they chastise us for, uh, they
chastise us for partnering withyou, like yes, uh, yeah, travis
Scott or somebody, or whateverit's like.
I think that what you talkabout, about being the sun, go
be some salt, go be some light.

(01:15:42):
And people, that's somethingpeople often say.
And I came with my sister andmy brother.
We're going to talk to themlater today.
I'm going to ask them somescriptural stuff, because they
like to always talk about this.
You know you can't mix light anddark.
You know you can't mix lightand dark.
You can't mix light and dark.
You know there's a scientificfact about that when there is
light, there cannot be darkness.
It's impossible.

(01:16:03):
It's impossible to havedarkness where there's light.
You know why?
Because darkness doesn't exist.
It's only the absence of light.
So the mere presence of lighteliminates darkness.
You can't mix them.
You can't sit in a room andturn on the light.
You can't mix them.
It's not like something thatcan coexist.

(01:16:25):
And the reason why I bring thatup is because where you send
light, darkness will evade.
It has to evade or the lighthas to go off.
One of them must accept thestate of to go off.
You know, one of them must come.
One of them must accept thestate of the other one.
You get what I mean.
Like, one of them must come inagreement with the other one.
Either I turn my light off orthe other side accepted the

(01:16:51):
light that we brought to thetable.
And the reason why that'simportant is because, like when
it gets down to the nitty grittyright and people say, oh, they
do these collaborations for themoney.
Oh, they're doing it for thefame.
Oh, they just want to be morepopular.
Oh, why do you do thesecollaborations?
Why do you do thecollaborations you do?

Speaker 1 (01:17:08):
The reason why I have just historically done collab
is because I've always done themand I've always seen it as an
opportunity to be a missionfield.
I've always seen it as anopportunity to speak a different
language.
That that that that Sundaymorning does not always give the
environment to speak is is.

(01:17:30):
I think that there, there,there are some honest things
that we have to acknowledgeabout the aesthetics and the
ecosystem that we exist in asChristians.
They can be intimidating forpeople that have not
matriculated in that space.
How we talk God bless you,brother or sister all the
different nuances about churchculture can be intimidating for

(01:17:52):
people that have notmatriculated in those spaces.
A lot of people don't feelworthy and don't feel
comfortable in thoseenvironments.
So a lot of times it is theattempt to try to bring that
message in spaces and placeswhere at least there is a chance
to see if there's the biggerconversation and the bigger
relationship to be built Now.
It does not always happen to bebuilt now.

(01:18:18):
It does not always happen.
But it is very interesting thatbecause when we become
missionaries in these foreignspaces, that there are always
eyes on us that are not the sameway that eyes on other things
like, like, like like.
In christian community we don'tkeep our eyes on young couples
that are dating the same way wedo as a christian working on
another.
You know it's like we we, wecompartmentalize the things that

(01:18:38):
are important to us.
So if you're doing somethingthat is non-conformative, then
we want to be able to make surethat you're doing it the way we
think you should be doing it.
But we don't do that same thingif a pastor is the CEO.
He don't have no board, hedon't have no elders or
accountability.
We don't have those same eyeson his maneuvering with the

(01:19:01):
money in the church with thesame level of scrutiny that we
do somebody who may be workingwith another rapper.
So once again, we have thissubjective way of how we
determine what's necessary forthe kingdom and what God
believes is important and whatisn't so.
For me, when people call and Iget a chance to make a

(01:19:22):
relationship an opportunity, Itry to be as pragmatic as I can
and try to be intentional.
I try to do with a certainlevel of counseling to be able
to try to get a certain amountof wisdom from people, just to
see why I need to and and andwhy I don't.

Speaker 3 (01:19:39):
Yeah, and I think that's important for people to
know that you, that theseopportunities are weighty
matters for you, they're not youdon't take them lightly Very
much, yeah, yeah.
I'd love to talk about thecollaboration that we did with
kingdom Maverick city and youand I'd love to just maybe just

(01:20:00):
start at the why of it and maybesome of your initial thoughts
and feelings.
Like when you got presentedwith the idea to do a collab
album and a tour of MaverickCity, like what were your
thoughts?
Because a lot of people werewondering why would they do
something?
This won't work.

Speaker 4 (01:20:16):
Yeah, let's be honest .

Speaker 2 (01:20:19):
What.

Speaker 4 (01:20:20):
Oh you talking about me?
Oh no, I was saying wedefinitely want to hear your
honest thoughts.
I was a hater.
I was a hater.

Speaker 1 (01:20:26):
Then you go first.
You want me to go first?

Speaker 2 (01:20:28):
Yes, I literally remember thinking why would he
do that?
Why would he do that?
Why, I think at the time andwe've talked about this in other
episodes before, and mybrothers know there was a big
cloud of I wouldn't even saymystery of confusion about what

(01:20:50):
people thought Maverick City wasand what it was intending to do
.
What I realized at a certainpoint, though, was that the
people who were doing it werenot at all confused.
Norman wasn't confused, jjwasn't confused.
The artists who were part of it, the writers they weren't
confused.

(01:21:10):
They just did not prioritize.
Giving me understanding, andthat was enough.
Once I got over myself to thepoint of what you're saying
about people feeling like it'snot going the way that I would
like to see it go.
Once I let that go and Irealized they don't owe me an
explanation of a business planor a mission statement or a
theological statement, and thenI had to challenge myself and

(01:21:34):
look at the fruit.
I could look at the fruit and Icould see okay, these souls are
coming to Christ.
Those people don't like worshipmusic, and now they do.
Those people didn't go tochurch, and now they do.
These people don't have anygospel music on their playlist
except these songs.
So are they right or am I right?
And where do I need to grow?
And I bought my ticket becauseI'm going to the Kingdom Tour,

(01:21:57):
because at that point I startedto realize it doesn't matter how
I think this should go.
And I think that was a big thingbecause, being in the industry
for decades, at that point andat an executive level, having
managed artists, been anattorney for artists and then at
the label, I thought I knew andhonestly thought I got to be
the arbiter of how a new artistshould emerge, and not just a

(01:22:22):
new artist but a force that wasgoing to dominate and change the
trajectory of the industrychange the economics, change
artist development, changecharting, change radio, change
tour.
Like no, no.
And I think, if my fellowindustry peers would be honest,
it really scared me because Ithought I didn't know if I was

(01:22:43):
going to have a job much longer.
And I think a lot of the peoplein the industry didn't know
that you came down when we wereabout to start the episode and
we hadn't been taping yet, andyou said to norman, to the dude
who you know saved the gospelindustry, and Norman said no, no
, no, you know, but there's,there's, that was a feeling, but
not just saving taking, thatwas the fear, and so when you

(01:23:07):
partnered with them, it wasyou're supposed to be saving it
with us got it, got it.
That was the feeling and, andwhether that was articulated by
the artists in the industry, theexecutives in the industry or
even the fans in the industry,people felt that yeah, because,
because we were very much, youknow, on the outside looking
into the gospel sort of industry.

Speaker 3 (01:23:27):
We weren't accepted.
There were people who kind ofhad us out of an arm's length
and so when kirk agreed to to dothe collaboration, it was a
stamp, it was like, oh, I'mputting them on game, I'm saying
they're next.
And for us that was like thefirst experience like anything
like that happening and that wasa massive moment, like you said

(01:23:48):
, from your perspective, but forus it was also a moment of man.
These are the people who wehave been inspired by for so
long but have just really neveraccepted us.
And this guy stood up and saidno, no, no, no, like I'm doing
this.
And that meant a lot to us, um,from a creative standpoint,
even just from a personalstandpoint, of just your belief

(01:24:11):
in what we were doing and sayingman, I see God in that we were
doing and saying, man, I see Godin that, yeah, and and, and,
and, and, even at its core level, for me had also to do with I
enjoy doing something different.

Speaker 1 (01:24:22):
Yeah, it was different, and so creatively.
That always gets my juicesflowing, you know.
It was a creative, differentmoment that allowed me to just
continue to be excited as acreative as well.

Speaker 3 (01:24:35):
Do you?
This is a funny moment.
Do you remember when we were wewere like comparing notes?
It was a phone call you and Ihad.
It was like we were comparingnotes about who we wanted to
like mix the album and like whowe wanted to like master and all
stuff.
And I was like, yeah, you know,we got this guy and he did this
and and, uh, I went throughabout five or six names and he

(01:24:55):
said JJ and I said yeah.
I said, yeah, he go, I get it,but I'm trying to bring the
niggas to the party and I waslike you know what I love this?
Oh my gosh, like I love it.
And what I love is for me.
I've talked about this a lotbut like I have this musical

(01:25:18):
sort of orphan thing in megospel music, the CCM, and what
I felt like the kingdom was acelebration of that.

(01:25:40):
And so to get to that, get todo that with you, one of our
musical heroes for me was likeoh my gosh, this is amazing.
But I love that moment becauseit was like hey, hey, we're
going a little too far, we'regoing a little too far, but it
worked, it worked, thank you youbut it's hilarious.

Speaker 4 (01:25:57):
I look back on it as the and nobody's to the point,
to the point.
I don't know what is the future, I don't know what the future
is to hold, I don't know whatthe future is to bring.
I see it was the culmination inthe peak moment for what we
were doing.
Um, I see kingdom as it was.
It was the fullness of a visionthat god was bringing forth,

(01:26:22):
and I also.
I also see it as a um, turningpoint and what gospel music
would be for the next, whatevertime period.
I think, if you look at thatmoment, it clearly stamped a
ushering in of a new thing and Ithink you accepted the ushering
in of the new thing and I thinkmany of those who did it have

(01:26:44):
felt those effects.
And I think one of thequestions we were to ask is like
how has gospel music changed?
Is gospel music even stillalive and where is it going?
Um, what would you say to thosethat say you know, maverick
city was the worst thing thatever happened to gospel music.
You know, some people feel thatway yeah some people feel that

(01:27:08):
way.
Well, how do you feel?

Speaker 1 (01:27:09):
it's, it's, I don't say anything musical could be.
The worst thing that happenedto anyone is that anything
that's happening musically isbecause there's a space and
there's a demand.
If people create content andthey are creating creativity and
a community responds to it,that that's not the fault of the

(01:27:30):
person that created it.
They just created, and so ifthere's somebody eating what
that person created, that meansthat there's a need there, there
is an enjoyment there.
So how can you hate onsomething that this type of this
survival system of creatingsupply and demand, supply and

(01:27:51):
demand those things are lawsthat are existing laws.
Supply and demand those thingsare laws that are existing laws.
They are not laws that havethis level of fluidity to them
that they come up seasonally.
They are existing laws.
Supply and demand, supply anddemand.
So if Maverick City is creatingsomething, well, why be mad at

(01:28:12):
Maverick City, be mad at thepeople that are eating it and
digesting?
Because it wouldn't be aproblem if nobody was eating it.
It's only a problem becausesomebody's eating it.
And so since somebody's eatingit, then we, then we pay
attention to it and we try tounderstand the best that we can
of what is it about that that'sfilling a diet in people, um,
and so not to complain thatpeople are eating.

(01:28:35):
It's because that's whatcreativity is created for.
Why, what?
Why we hating on folk eating.
And so for me is, I think, thatwhat the future holds is that I
think the future holds in thediet of what people want to eat
now, now.
Now, art imitates life and and,uh, the music especially means
that we do is so deeply impactedin the things that happen

(01:28:55):
outside of the music Differentpeople's belief systems.
There is more of a pluralisticideal that exists within society
.
Now we are more of a socialsociety.
This is a post-Christiansociety, and so people's ideals
of what Jesus is and what God isis going to be very nuanced,

(01:29:17):
and so people are going to beeating many different things,
but I would just encouragepeople to cook.
Just cook in that, whoever sitsat the table, that's what we
try to speak to.

Speaker 3 (01:29:34):
You got any young sort of artists that you got
your eyes on, that you think areon the come up, that that
people need to pay attention to?

Speaker 1 (01:29:42):
you know, every time I do, I'm I.
I am made aware by ron anddifferent people around me that
you know it's just really hardto still figure out what that
needs to look like, because itis so hard to get the attention
for a young artist to get thatthat that sometimes you don't
want to discourage them in thatreality too.
So that right there is.
I kind of leave more in thehands of those that that

(01:30:04):
understand that it's not justabout the music anymore, see,
see, remember I came in an erait was all about the music.
It's all about the music that adope song is the solution to
everything.
But now there's so manydifferent components that come
into it and so because of that,just seeing a young artist kill
it doesn't mean as much as itused to, because of what it

(01:30:25):
takes to get across the finishline For sure.
Well, I guess that's a no.

Speaker 3 (01:30:32):
He wants to be careful.

Speaker 1 (01:30:33):
It's more of a, I don't know.

Speaker 4 (01:30:37):
Even if now, the reason why I say it that way is
because, look, I mean, you knowwe're going to put this out.
You know a couple hundredthousand people see it, maybe a
million if we're lucky.
I mean, even if it's just froma creative standpoint, because
I'm the left side of thependulum.
Data need to be good at socials, marketing, tiktok, music,

(01:31:03):
optional.
I have begun to swing this waybecause once you perfect these
things, you recognize nothingtrumps good music and know the
fields, the runs, the ejs.
They've been telling me that foryears and I've always told them
give me a bad song, I'llperform you a good song.

(01:31:24):
Right, wait, with good deeds,with good deeds, I'll perform
you a good song, and I've beendoing that for years.
But I've learned now, once youruh metrics and your goals
change, you want and you wantthe top, you need all of them
and you need a good song.
And then I recognize the goodsong with none of them will
actually outperform a bad songwith all of those I've

(01:31:44):
recognized.
I've seen it.
I've seen it enough times nowto concede that, as long as
we're doing music, music leadsthe way.
Wow.

Speaker 1 (01:31:55):
That's heavy.

Speaker 4 (01:31:56):
I have, you know, I agree to that.
Now, as long as we're doingmusic, music leads the way and I
want to encourage those artistsI may have discouraged in the
past that, you know, may nothave been good at socials.
You can learn to be good atsocials.
You can learn to be good atTikTok.
You can learn to be good.
You can hire people to be goodat tiktok.
You can learn to be good.
You can hire people to be goodat that.

(01:32:17):
The creative ingenuity god gaveyou to be an artist and the lens
viewpoint perspective you makeart from can't be taught like.
You can't teach somebody to betaller the creator and I'm just
trying to, you know, trying toyou can't teach someone that
level of originality.

(01:32:37):
You know you can't teachsomeone to be like Kirk Franklin
.
You know that's something thatyou have to be born and it's why
, once Maverick popped off, yousaw all of these derivatives of
Maverick City.
None of them had the same levelof success.
Or because you can't teachsomebody something that was the

(01:32:59):
will of God.
And what I want to make surethat we don't do is if you've
noticed somebody that's dope andthey don't got none of that,
maybe we go highlight them.
Maybe we'll pull them up, maybethey're the next sign in the
travel.
You know what I mean, but Iwant to make sure that we
highlight them because there'snot a lot of platforms left for

(01:33:22):
them to be highlighted.
There's not a lot of placesleft for Kirk Franklin to say
well, you know, I was onInstagram and I saw Boom, I saw
X.
I'm not trying to force you tosay names.
I'm just more so saying we haveto be cognizant, in 2025, that
this is one of the lastplatforms where people are going
to even be talking about gospelartists.

Speaker 2 (01:33:45):
How does that hit you ?

Speaker 1 (01:33:47):
I think that it is a reality for the history of, not
for the history, but for thefuture of what?
Not well, not for the history,but for the future of, of, of
what the music is, and, and and.
There's nothing that you can do.
Try to rewrite this, this, thistruth of, of, of of where

(01:34:07):
things are headed, and just aprojection of it, and and so
it's.
I think that authenticity isgoing to always win, and showing
up as your true self is theonly way to survive.
Showing up in your true self,being authentic when you have
the pen and being honest andsincere when you have the
microphone.
That's all you can do, there'snothing else you can do.

(01:34:27):
And try to surround yourselfwith people that are smarter
than you, at whatever level.
That.

Speaker 2 (01:34:33):
I think a lot of people would be surprised to
know that if they were to sitwith you.
You're generally going to checkon the state of gospel music.
If there's going to be aconversation, something you're
always going to ask is how'sgospel, how's gospel doing?
And I think that that's a bigthing, because I think once you

(01:34:53):
reach this level of success, acase could be made by some that
what does it matter to you?
But I think it's interestingthat you're always asking how's
gospel, who's got it?
You always ask who's got it,who's got next?
Who are we seeing?
And you do, even withoutcommenting on it, you do pay
attention to the health of theindustry.

(01:35:13):
What do you feel like?
Are you hopeful about gospelmusic right now?
What do you feel like?
Are you hopeful about gospelmusic right now?
What do you feel like theprognosis is, having been in it
in this amount of time?

Speaker 1 (01:35:21):
I think that it is parallel to my concerns about
the faith as well.
I have great concerns about thefaith in our modern society,
and what that looks like isbecause I think that if it
becomes more arbitrary, thenwhat's the foundation and where
do we land?
What that looks like is becauseI think that if it becomes more
arbitrary, then then what's thefoundation and and and and
where do we land?
It's because, historically, thetenets of Christianity are very

(01:35:45):
deeply embedded in deeprequirements and expectations
and commitments from us, whichwe would hear in the music.
You know, you know, andre Kratz, you know where there's take me
back, you know, you know, andreKratz.
You know, take me back, youknow.
But if that's arbitrary, thenyou can take me wherever I want
to go at that moment.
Dig it.
So I think that they'reparallel.

(01:36:05):
They're very parallel, that I'mnot more concerned about music
gospel music than I am aboutChristian culture.
I'm just as concerned aboutChristian culture as I am about
gospel music.
That's good.
It's because they're parallel.
Wow, that, yeah.
That we can't expect stuff fromgospel artists that they're not
dealing with and dwelling withseven days a week.

(01:36:27):
Right, right, that's good.
It's because that's your pen,that's your ink.
Whatever's behind that pulpit,whatever's behind that White
House that's the pen.
Whatever's happening in thatgrocery store and the prices of
eggs.
All these things are funnelinginto that pen and what people
believe about it.

Speaker 4 (01:36:48):
Right, that's good.
I mean, take me to the kingmeans something totally
different if your theologicalstance or your relationship with
God isn't what it's supposed tobe.
It's what breaks every chain.

Speaker 1 (01:36:58):
You know, you begin to get into all of these
questions.
No, no, no, that's a good point.

Speaker 4 (01:37:01):
They're very parallel .
They're very parallel, that'sgood, yeah.
And so if we don't do all wecan to make sure that we
continue to move forward and wecan say, well, why does it have
to be King Nobari too?
Well, that's what God gave me.
If he gave you something, you doyour thing, you do your thing,
but that's what he gave us andthat's the mandate he gave JJ

(01:37:23):
and I, and it's built oncollaboration, and so that's my
heart on the matter who that isand what it looks like, you know
, I know it starts here, I knowit starts with the home team,
and I really do believe wehighlight the best of what God
has placed here, and I do thinkthat'll lead to a resurgence of

(01:37:44):
consumption, touring, publishingopportunities for so many
people currently out here thatare, whether they're going to
admit it or not, they'restruggling to make ends meet in
a world where they were reallysuccessful before.
Yo, thank y'all.
We just had an amazing episodewith our brother Kirk Franklin.
Please, I'm telling you, thisisn't one you want to miss.

(01:38:07):
I mean, you're going to get tosee a side of him and hear him
tell his story from aperspective you've heard before,
but it really comes to life, itjumps off the page.
We answer a lot of thosequestions that many of you have
been asking and we have someperspectives that you may not
have heard or understood.
But, all in all, this isMavericks on the mic.
I would like to call it seasontwo, but I don't feel like it.

(01:38:30):
We're still in season one, butwe're signing off.
We'll be right back, but wesigning off, bye.

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Kirk Franklin: What Gospel Music Forgot to Say Out Loud

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