Naomi Raine: HERstory with Maverick City Music

Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Naomi (00:00):
That's not a thing up north, Like you either say it or
you not.
You like footy streets for youand church.

JJ (00:07):
Things started to really take off.
It was kind of like they didlike an about face and just made
it really weird, Like you guysare.
It just feels different and youguys are doing this for
different motivations.
Now, no, no, no.

Norman (00:20):
We do the same.
We don't do the same.
We provide the seed, the saving, we don't do the saving.
We provide the seed, theopportunity.
He does the rest.

Naomi (00:27):
I think we should have valued Aaron the same way y'all
valued us for, Because I don'tthink y'all realize how much of
an integral part he played inMaverick City.
I think that's the biggestmistake that y'all made, if I'm
honest.
And then he's still nottreating Gentiles the way that
he's treating Jews.
People have issues and they haveto keep working and God is like

(00:47):
it's okay, but feed my sheep Dothis stuff anyway, and so
that's the thing I want to get,and I don't think that we should
excuse nonsense.
No, we have to hold each otheraccountable.

JJ (00:57):
This is what I love about Marist City it is the best of
the best coming together, andwhen you come together and you
collaborate, everybody has tolay a strength down.

(01:23):
What's up everybody.
Welcome to another episode ofMavericks on the Mic.
My name is JJ, I'm Norman.

Norman (01:40):
And today we have our very own, the queen of Maverick
City.
She goes by.

Naomi (01:45):
Naomi Reigns.

JJ (01:48):
Let's go baby, we kind of already started this a little
bit.
We just happened to turn it on.

Norman (01:54):
It's the longest free podcast conversation that we've
had, but hey, we're here now wegot.
You know it's a lot to gothrough, man.
Yeah, for sure it's a lot to gothrough man, yeah, for sure
it's a lot to go through, forsure.

JJ (02:05):
Lots of history, lots of songs, lots of stories to tell,
Absolutely.
Lots of stories to recount,Absolutely.
But yeah, I think, man, let'sstart from the beginning.
Like, how did you get here?
How did this whole thing start?
I know these are things that wereally don't talk too much
about.
I know last night in theconcert you were talking about

(02:26):
how Maverick City was namedafter Atlanta, and so I just I
don't know, maybe this would bea great place to start, Like,
how did you get connected withand start end up starting
Maverick City?

Naomi (02:37):
Okay.
So Matt, like before, Maverickwas a group, we were.
It was like a publishingcompany, I guess.
Not a company but just asongwriting.
I don't know what were y'all.
It was you and Tony, yeah, SomeNegroes in the shed, but even

(02:58):
before the shed, because I thinkI met y'all at Bethel.
Yeah, I was there to do like aset there.

JJ (03:05):
Okay, so we were there for—BSSM was doing a Black
History—this is the weirdest—.

Naomi (03:12):
Very strange.

JJ (03:13):
No shade to anybody, but it was like a Black History special
at Bethel in Reading.

Naomi (03:19):
It was the first time they ever had all Black worship
leaders.

JJ (03:22):
Yeah, so we all like, for some weird reason we find
ourselves all out there.
Yes, Before we like did theevent, I think we decided we
were going to write and like dosome songs together.
Like write some songs togetherin this house, and that kind of
turned into you getting asked tolike can you sing some songs?

Naomi (03:42):
Because I didn't know any of that.

JJ (03:43):
Yeah, like we sent them to you, like what two, three hours
before the recording Literallyand JJ's like can you sing this?

Naomi (03:50):
It was, I'm Loved, I'm.

JJ (03:51):
Loved yeah.

Naomi (03:52):
And I was like, oh, this song is beautiful.
And I didn't want to say yes, Iwasn't that scared, but I was
like, whatever, let me Went back, tried to learn it and ended up
singing it there at that housein Bethel, I think.
By the time I got home, tonywas texting like hey, this stuff
is really good.

(04:13):
We think we want to justrelease the music with y'all
singing it.
And so I was like, ok, cool,that sounded fun.
He was like here we're doingsome writing camps.
Do you want to come?
I'd never been to a writingcamp, so I was like like sure,
like I'll come.
I think he ended up textinglike a few days later he's like
Maverick City question mark andI'm like, oh, that name like
feels weird to me.
I'm like it just soundsrebellious, um, and and so I was

(04:35):
like okay, I mean not that Ihad anything to do with it, but
I was like, okay, fine.
So came to the writing camps.
Um, there were definitely twoof them.
I remember the first one.
That's when I met Brandon forthe first time.
I think I don't know if he wasthere.
He wasn't there at the.
Yeah, I met Brandon for thefirst time.
There met Aaron for the firsttime, met Joelle for the first

(04:56):
time, trying to think of whoelse it was.
There were just a bunch ofpeople no, what was like your
sense?

JJ (05:02):
I mean, obviously you got invited into this thing.
It was writers, like all theseartists.
There was a clear, it was veryclear that we were trying to do
something multicultural,something that was different.
But, like, what was yourgeneral sense?
As you were like kind of cominginto and meeting some of these
people for the first time andbeing able to be a part of the

(05:23):
camps, like what did you feel?
What did you sense?
What were you hearing?

Naomi (05:26):
so, honestly, I did not necessarily feel I don't.
I don't think it was blatant tome that we were doing a
multicultural thing.
I just thought it was a bunchof writers, yeah.
So I just thought it was I,because I was new to the space.
I was like, oh, these peopleare all part of this space.
It wasn't until after my firstright.
Um, I think my first right wasvery uncomfortable, um because
what did you write?

JJ (05:46):
do you remember?

Naomi (05:47):
I know tammy had was there, who she made me feel more
comfortable.
But, um, I think I think danielbashta was in my first right
too, um, but I had never writtenwith white men before.
So there was, oh, benji was inmy in my first right too.
I had good.
I didn't realize like I had agood right, I had a good first

(06:08):
right, but I was superuncomfortable because I had
never had to relate with peoplelike that and stuff.
That I thought was like hey, weshould say this in a song.
It's like no, we can't do that.
Like, let's say it this way, um, and they were more, I guess,
more seasoned as writers.
So I was just kind of like,okay, like I guess that that's
how we're supposed to write asong, um, so it was kind of

(06:32):
uncomfortable for me at first,but I thought it was a cool
experience.
Like hey, a bunch of writers inthe same place, like I get to
be creative, um, and write thesesongs.
But I don't know if I thinkeverybody felt this way, like I
don't know if I'm good enough tobe like in this space, until
you start realizing thateverybody feels that way and
you're kind of like, oh, this isjust like normal, except for

(06:54):
the people that were likewriters already.
So I remember this moment, likeafter we would come down, maybe
from like the last write, andthen it was like you could go
out and do whatever.
I remember, um, at that buckheadhouse there were a bunch of
guys that would like sit aroundthe the camp, what is that
called the fire pit, um, andthey were talking and it was

(07:15):
like business, um, executivesthere and talking.
So it kind of felt like we werethese writers.
And then there was somethingelse happening over here that
was like the business and youwere supposed to like like Tony
would introduce you to thesepeople and it'd be like hey,
like you're supposed to kind oflike make a good impression or
whatever.
It just felt a little strange.

(07:36):
So it's almost like there weretwo things happening, like it
was like the super creative part, and then there was like this
business going on that Ipersonally felt like I don't
even want to be a part of that,um, but maybe it's because I'm a
woman, maybe it's because I'venever really been in this space,
but I know like the guys werevery into that.
I know Brandon was very in thatspace, um and um, and I think

(08:00):
Dante too.
I feel like as time went onChandler more became in that
business space.
I kind of stayed away from that.

Norman (08:09):
That's good.
How would you advise?
I think this is the commenttalked about.
We talked about this on anearly episode, where EJ talked
about the difference betweenbeing a worship leader and being
a worship artist, and when youbring commerce into the business
, you have to have at least arespect for the business aspect
and a lot of time worshipartists wanted to be there.

(08:33):
They wanted to be solelyworship to God and they don't
want the business to even existat all.
How do you, how would youadvise a worship artist to deal
with that dichotomy?

Naomi (08:48):
Yeah, I think, as an intellectual right and as a
person who actually studies theBible, I think God cares about
business.
So to me, you have to, you haveto learn to try to do it his
way.
I think some like worshipleaders and worship artists oh,
my goodness, y'all about to getme to say something Like.
I think that we are taught inthese worship conferences that

(09:12):
anything that looks like work orbusiness, or effort or
performance, or anything thatlooks like an applause for you
is bad Christian nihilism iswhat we call it Christian
nihilism.

JJ (09:27):
Christian nihilism the assumption that if something is
big, N-I-H-L-I-S-M yeah, it'slike the assumption, that like.

Norman (09:35):
No, I like the definition of that word.
It doesn't mean that Okay.

Naomi (09:38):
Well, let's think it out.

Norman (09:39):
Nihilism means that it's like a belief in the lack of
the existence of morals, and soI think that when he was
attempting to win, when oneslide used that, he's attempting
to say that because somethingis big that Christians are
saying it lacks thosefoundations.

Naomi (09:57):
Sure yeah, which I think that's what she's trying to say.
Well, I think the philosophicaldefinition of it means extreme
skepticism, maintaining thatnothing in the world has a real
existence.
So I think I kind of get whythey would say it Like.
I get why they would maybeattribute nihilism to it,
because it's like, the goodthings that you do it's not real

(10:23):
.
You know like, so you singingwell and hitting every note
doesn't matter because Jesusdoesn't care about that.
And it's like, actually, I thinkGod does care that I write
notes if I've been given a giftto sing Not that he's going to
kill me if I don't, but I thinkif he's giving you something and
that was the gift that he gaveyou to bless other people I

(10:44):
would think that he would wantyou to present it in an
excellent fashion.
You know what I mean.
And so I think that there'sthis discouragement of anything
surrounding excellence ormultiplication or making more of
something, and I think it'sbecause some people go too far
with it and they can start toattribute that with their worth
and their value.
And I don't think that you canteach one or the other.

(11:06):
I think you have to teachpeople hey, this is important,
but you can't find your value init.
And here's the thing it doesn'tmake you valuable but God does
actually value it.
That's hard People don't wantto live in the tension of.
God wants me to multiply whatI've been given.
These are like I just it blowsmy mind when we take one portion

(11:31):
of scripture and make iteverything and, rather than
taking the whole counsel right,the whole thing that the Lord
gave us.
And if I could really arguethis, I really believe Jesus
spoke more about being a goodsteward and multiplication of
what you've been given than whatthey're calling being humble,
because I don't even thinkthat's true humility.

(11:52):
I think it's.
I think it's a way you ever see.
Oh, you ever see those thosemovies where somebody is like
this is good like religious andthey like beating themselves
like I don't know what it'scalled, but they're like beating
themselves to pay for what theydid.
Penance, penance, yes, yes, Ithink that worship, some worship

(12:14):
leaders and artists, are tryingto pay a penance.

Norman (12:19):
They're trying to work their way into salvation.
They're trying to work for thesalvation they got for free.

Naomi (12:26):
And look more, look more like Christian.

Norman (12:28):
He talks about this too.
It's like when you pray thatfast, like they want to, that's
what it is.
You know what I'm saying?
When you pray that fast, youknow, don't walk around looking
like your breath's stinking.
Like, look fit, look like youhave joy while you're doing this
for me, right, you don't needto, or you get your reward, I

(12:48):
think, something that y'allhitting on that is so so, so, so
good.
It's two things.
I'm going to give y'all myperspective.
Y'all hit me Because I ain'tnever been in none of these
right rooms.
I'm the business guy that Naomibe something.
I wouldn't let them go fires Idon't like fires.
I'm a self-fire, I'm going tosay this because she can't say
it.
Whatever they was talking about, at them, fires wasn't worth

(13:10):
nothing anyway, I wouldn't know.

Naomi (13:12):
I wouldn't hear, I would.

Norman (13:18):
We can't do it but no, no.

Naomi (13:20):
It's the thing I think it's twofold, I think it's
twofold.

Norman (13:24):
I think that something we miss.
So there's a dichotomy inchurch.
There's always been a dichotomyin church.
Because there's a dichotomy inAmerica.
You have black people, you havewhite people, you have black
culture, you have white culture.
Then you have Christianity, andwhen you think about white

(13:48):
Baptists and black Baptists,they could not be more
diametrically opposed, right.
They couldn't be more different, right, and that just is what
it is right, and I say this forthese reasons.
There are certain and I neverthought of Christianity as an
ethnicity until earlier likeHinduism is an ethnicity in

(14:08):
India.
Like you're going to have Hindupractices just in your everyday
life, simply because you grewup in India.
Like there's certain foodsyou're going to eat, there's
certain ways you're going todress.
Like Islam is an ethnicity aswell as a religion.
There's food, eating, way youtalk, cultural things.
There's culture, like whensomething becomes culture
language that's an ethnicity.

(14:30):
That's literally what it is.
But we don't see Christianitythat way.

Naomi (14:35):
When you talk about I think we do, but okay, we don't
talk about it.
I don't think we don't talkabout it.

Norman (14:41):
There's no language for that.

JJ (14:43):
There's no I didn't even don't talk about it.
There's no language for that.

Norman (14:46):
There's no like that even go back to the conversation
we were having yesterday.
You know what I'm saying.
When some people they don'tprofess because they don't know.

Naomi (14:50):
They don't mean nothing to you.

Norman (14:52):
Like you ever seen the kids shout?
They don't know what that like.
I'm telling you, I didn't growup shouting, so when I was at
church I used to always say whydo these people running around
here like that, they cryingevery Sunday like I'm going to
stomp my feet?
That ain't no mean nothing.
That's what I thought.
It was, my ignorance.

Naomi (15:06):
I think that's a down south thing to just say you.
Christian because you grew upin the.
Bible.

JJ (15:10):
Belt.

Naomi (15:10):
That's not a thing up north, like you either say it or
you not.
You like footy streets or andchurch, I done got.

Norman (15:20):
But in the South, that's what I said.
You grew up, you're going toget on the church, You're going
to go to church.
You ain't got no choice, andthen you let them decide.
That's why a lot of people,when they talk about guerrilla
that was the thing I was talkingabout there's so many people I
said she's like my cousin.
There's so many people thatgrow up knowing church, knowing

(15:41):
God, getting saved them,baptized, all of that they don't
know Adam Smith.

Naomi (15:45):
But I think that's the reason why and I'm going to just
use their term the Christiannihilism thing exists, because-.

Norman (15:51):
I was getting to that.
Sorry, no, I was getting tothat.

Naomi (15:54):
I think it's like well, how do we differentiate, how do
we establish what our culture isand what's important?
And I don't ever want to bemistaken for saying that
humility is not important, orlike keeping first things first,
like the reason that we do this, our motive, who we are like.
I think all of that isimportant and it has to be, it

(16:16):
has to be prioritized.
But I think to teach people ina lopsided way actually puts
them into a workspace thing.
That is the opposite of ourfaith and our belief system,
especially with creatives andwith people that are in ministry
, because you feel like that'syour gift and you actually start
to find value in how humble youcan appear or seem or be,

(16:40):
rather than what Christ did foryou and the opportunity that
he's given you to even, like,preach this gospel or be
successful in ministry.

Norman (16:52):
Yeah, this is the thing that I wanted to hear and this
is why I talk about race andculture, because I think that
what's difficult in America,that's not difficult in other
religions, in other places, isthe dichotomy of race.
And we are so afraid to talkabout race because people,

(17:14):
because it, they feel like itpins you into an argument.
But the reality is this the wayyou matriculate through life
and the reason, the wayscripture speaks to you, is
based on your experiences oflife.
Right, if I know, like boom,it's a reality.
My mama would tell me if youget pulled over, I'd rub in the

(17:37):
deep south.
Santa's gonna do a cop.
Let's slam my head against thedoor.
You know, bust my lip when Iwas in senior high school and
when I called my mama.
You know, bust my lip when Iwas in senior high school and
when I called my mom.
You know what she said youshouldn't have been speeding.
You shouldn't have beenspeeding.
What Like what?
You want me to go to the gym?
You shouldn't have beenspeeding.
That's not a reality for awhite dude in the South.
It's just not.

(18:01):
And so to tell me, like just anunderstanding of how your faith
is Like, where I get theself-control to not cuss a cop
out Now I got a little paper,you know, now I can get me a
lawyer.
Now I get you know it comesfrom my faith.
Make a statement that this ishow you should say, this is how

(18:28):
you should express.
What you're removing is a fewthings.
You're removing the humanexperience from the way they
express their faith.
Right, I think what happens alot is that, because it's
different, most black kids walkwithout a father.
That's statistically true.
A lot of our wealth, ourCaucasian careers, grew up in a

(18:52):
two-parent household where boththeir parents was there and they
had jobs, especially in thechurch.
There's a difference inexperience and the things that
they're going to focus on, theissues that they're going to
have, the way that they dealwith those issues.
Like you know, all right, cool,you grew up under the pressure.
You always had everything.
You're probably not going to beflashing when you get some

(19:12):
money.
You're probably just notbecause you're used to having it
.
For a black dude, they neverhad nothing.
They came from nothing.
His mama ain't had nothing.
His grandma ain't had nothing.
His grandma ain't had nothing.
When he gets some money,culturally, what he has seen and
how people, it's not that he ismaterialistic, that's the

(19:34):
culture.
That's the culture.
Yeah, where.

Naomi (19:36):
I would challenge that a little bit.
I agree, for some people thatis a thing, but I think that in
a culture so remember, likeChristianity is a culture, but
also America is a culture,absolutely, and capitalism, I
think, is a god of our culture.
Materialism is a thing.
So I think to, once you getsomething, to now become that

(19:59):
and be flashy and do the things.
It suggests that that was thething of most importance to you.
I disagree, and I'm youdisagree, but I think I can't
Remember what I said.
I think that's the case forsome.
I think for others, some peopleare using Christianity to get

(20:20):
by until they make something ofthemselves and then it becomes
well, now I don't need, I don'tneed to do things, I don't need
to be modest in my appearance,and that's.

Norman (20:34):
Oh yeah, I got to get out of the door.
I don't disagree with you.
I actually don't disagree.

Naomi (20:38):
And you know I don't disagree with you.
I don't think that just becauseyou are, you wear what you got
or you spend a bunch of money on.
Just because you wear what yougot or you spend a bunch of
money on hello I got an LV bagover here and a few more at home
.
I'm not saying we can't spendmoney or do what we want with
our money.
I think for some people, though, it becomes the main thing.
Yes, and Christianity becomes ameans to an end, like let me get

(21:00):
to what I want and now I don'tactually have to follow the
tenets of this culture that wekeep saying, that we have.

Norman (21:05):
You know what I mean, what I'm trying to get, what I'm
trying to get, what I'm tryingto have the conversation mature
into and as we go through theseepisodes, you'll find a common
theme is this that just becauseyou got a $3 million lake house
that nobody can price, doesn'tmean I'm flashy because I'm
wearing a Rolex.

(21:26):
That's what I'm saying.
The way, culturally, ourcommunity expresses wealth is
different based on where youlook, because I know you know JJ
expresses his wealth verydifferently than I may express
mine.
You express your wealthdifferently than a uh MJ may
have expressed hers.

(21:46):
What I'm saying is that,culturally, it's not like
someone isn't wrong because theyexpress themselves differently
than you.
What I was getting at aboutwhen you talk about, look, when
you were talking about, theydon't want.
Um, they tell you that ifyou're, if it's work or there's

(22:06):
business associated with it, orthat it's wrong.
That's something that, likeworship leaders, get taught.
There's a that start thatstarted a long time ago with
religion in and of itself,because the less people knew
about the business, the more youcan take advantage of them.

Naomi (22:23):
Right.

Norman (22:24):
That's really, that's the heart of that and that is
what's been preached, and Ithink that's wrong.

JJ (22:30):
Yeah.

Norman (22:31):
I've always thought it was wrong.
I've always thought that notbeing straight up and
straightforward when it comes tobusiness is an issue, and
that's when you'll see thesehuge conglomerate organizations,
churches, making hundreds ofmillions of dollars.
They worship leaders beggingpeople for a place to stay.
Like that's to me, no.

Naomi (22:53):
So this is what I think is because I know we're probably
going to get to it some of theissue, because I agree with you
100%.
I think some of the issue andwhat happened with Mav is that
everybody was given, for themost part, all the information
and everybody had to makedecisions based on that
information, and everybodydoesn't always make the right

(23:15):
choices, or we don't alwaysagree, we don't always like it,
and Absolutely.

Norman (23:21):
The reality is people push back.
This is why I keep it a book.
People push back on JJ and Tonyfor exposing the truth about
the business of music.
They armed y'all withinformation nobody wanted y'all
to have.

Naomi (23:40):
Right.

Norman (23:41):
And once they gave y'all the information the devil does
what the devil does and he triedto make he made the truth a lie
.
Y'all became the two mostuntrustworthy business people in
worship music, when y'all wereprobably the two most
trustworthy business people inchristian.

(24:01):
You want me to tell you why.
Because they didn't know nobetter either.
They didn't have the realmotive.
They was just like bro, thesepeople took advantage of me.
Somebody had taken advantage ofthem.
They didn't want y'all to betaken advantage of.
So when y'all was going to talkto people about it like who's
telling them that?
Like why they giving them awarranty and they not signing
them the deals, why they givingthem a piece of the song that

(24:24):
they ain't paying for, they notgoing to lock them up in long
contracts.
But what's wrong with y'all?
Because what was happening?
No that's what people was askingthem.
What was happening?
Now I'm not going to sayeverything was right, but I'm
not going to say everything wasright now.

Naomi (24:40):
Yeah, I'm not going to say that.

Norman (24:42):
But I am going to say this Where's my camera?
What I am going to say is thisis that the pushback y'all got
from the worship community wasbro man, you talking about
organizations making tens ofmillions of dollars,
organizations that was out herein the space at the time,

(25:03):
millions of dollarsOrganizations that was out here
in the space at the time.
And I mean, unless you was abig writer, unless you was
Tomlin, unless you was, you know, one of these guys, it wasn't
matriculating down the space.
They were preaching this.
You know, you're doing it untoGod.
You're coming and doingfeatures for free.

(25:23):
Ain't no artist fee, ain't noartist royalty.
Everything gratis.
Gratis means free, likeeverything you're doing for free
.
You're doing it for.
You're doing this for God.
Somebody get paid, that's evilI know that's my whole point.
The whole point is that wheny'all are doing the whole point
behind not wanting worshipartists to focus on the business

(25:47):
side of so, they can be takenadvantage of, and any business
person that says otherwise is alie.

JJ (25:53):
Or it's a way for people to hyper spiritualize, like what
they are internallyuncomfortable with or they
haven't mastered themselves, orthey just feel weird about.
Or they just feel weird aboutright, because I remember there
being like a lot of people thatwe felt like were really
accepting of us, that kind of Imean you could say mother,
father, whatever there's somekey people that I remember and I

(26:13):
remember like when thingsstarted to really take off, it
was kind of like they did likean about face and just made it
really weird, like you guys are.
It's just different and youguys are doing this for
different motivations.
Now, and I was just like no,we're not, we're the same and
we're the same people doing thesame stuff, right, and I think I
think a lot of that is some ofthat from my perspective was

(26:38):
really like oh, that's just youruncomfortability with you, with
your ability to like put yourarms around the business of what
you've been doing.

Norman (26:48):
Man, man Right.

JJ (26:50):
Or even the jealousy of seeing someone else be
successful right.

Naomi (26:55):
I think two things can be true at the same time Sure.

JJ (26:58):
Yeah absolutely.

Naomi (26:59):
I think that there can be jealousy, I think that there
can be discomfort around moneyand I think that sometimes, when
you get money, you do move alittle differently.

JJ (27:07):
Sure yeah.

Naomi (27:08):
And not just money.
I think as you get moreinformation and that's what I
saw with you and Tony at thetime as you got more information
, you began to to me move alittle differently, and I think
that it wasn't always sneaky,but I don't think it was always
disclosed.
It wasn't always sneaky, but Idon't think it was always

(27:29):
disclosed.
So I think, as time went on,things began to unfold and we
began to see I'm talking aboutinternally, like we began to see
more, and I think that's why westuck around and was like okay,
because we realized okay, asy'all got more information, we
got more information.
But I think that when we startedto tap into what is it called
the market shares is that am Isaying the right thing?
Like, whereas our we started totap into what is it called the
market shares?
Is that, am I saying the rightthing?
Market shares, like, whereasour we started to take up more

(27:50):
of the yes, then the people thatwere losing the market shares
were very upset and did not wantus to win.
So I think I think two thingscan exist.
I don't think that we werecompletely like.
I don't think that we werecompletely not, and when I say
we, I mean like Maverick and thepeople involved in it.

(28:12):
I don't think everybody waslike yay, I'm completely after
God, because I feel like when wefirst started we all seemed
very like this is about Jesusand this is about family and
this is about relationship.

JJ (28:29):
And as people started to make money, things did change
and people started to access.

Naomi (28:31):
But don't you feel like that's normal or natural, like,
yes, but I don't think, justbecause it's normal or natural,
that it's that it shouldn't becounted or identified and I
think sometimes what we don't,what we don't a lot for, is
people's change margin, like thechange windows.
I think when you're in atransition, you got to give
people grace, and those peoplethat I think were like mothers

(28:53):
and fathers or whatever, did notnecessarily allow a lot for a
certain grace, but I don't eventhink I think they needed grace
too, because they really had nogrid for what we were embarking
upon.
I think what we got to do, alot of them didn't even get to
do so I don't think any of themactually got to do so.
They didn't even know how tosteward or counsel or you know

(29:14):
what I mean.
So, like, I feel like grace hasto be extended all around.
I'm not trying to, I'm thatperson that's like I'm going to
see all the sides right, but Ithink we needed grace and I
think they needed grace.
Um, do I think that they?
Now you know I have a.
I have an issue with people wholove to like, toe the bible and
give you scripture for why youwrong, but can't see that
they're doing a very wrong thingthat's in scripture too, and
won't admit that.

(29:35):
So I feel like everybody has tobe held accountable.
But what I can say is, asMaverick, I think we have tried
to extend a layer and level ofgrace that I don't think has
ever been extended to us.
I think there's always been anopen door.
I think there's always been ahey, let's talk about it.
If you have a problem, let'stalk about it.
I remember certain peopletalking crazy about certain

(29:57):
people in our group at the timeand I called that person and
said hey, you're talking aboutthis.
You're spreading rumors andgossip about these people.
If you have an issue, come talkto us.
Like, instead of speaking to us, you're spreading it around.
And some of it is not true.
I can't say all of it isn'ttrue, but some of it is not true

(30:18):
.
Like, don't do that.
My thing is, when I read myBible and my scriptures, because
I'm going to back this up withscripture- because this is like
gossip and so in discord amongbrethren, and that is some of
the stuff that God hates.
It's detestable to him, sure,and so I don't see smoking weed

(30:39):
in it, and I'm not saying that.

JJ (30:41):
I'm not.

Naomi (30:42):
I'm not advocating that, I am not, but when I look at it
I'm like how we relate to oneanother God actually cares about
, and when you spread rumorsabout people because that stuff
it lasts, and I'm thinking aboutoh, now I'm getting emotional.
I'm thinking about these youngpeople.
They were there, they were kids, and you're spreading garbage

(31:03):
about them, about weak momentsin their lives or whatever, and
some of it wasn't even true, solike but you're the mother,
you're the father.
Stuff like that blows my mind.

Norman (31:15):
I mean because it wasn't rooted in seeing y'all do well.
It was rooted in loss of marketshare.
It was rooted in loss ofcontrol.
It was rooted in success thatthey were a part of.
It was rooted in the of control.
It was rooted in success thatthey weren't a part of.
It was rooted in the need tofeel honored and not honoring.
That's a bit, but then I goback.

Naomi (31:31):
sorry, but then I go back to what your mother said to you
when you got pulled over andbusted in half so why were you
speeding?
And so this is what I would sayto the other side of it Y'all,
stop doing stupid stuff.
Stop doing that, because you'reactually putting yourself in a
position to now let your good beevil spoken of.
And this has always been one ofmy issues with our side of

(31:52):
things, and I'm always going tobe honest like y'all, chill like
we had we had a, we had a megaspotlight put on us due to the
success.

JJ (32:03):
And there was a responsibility that we needed to
come around with that, stop it.
Some of us did come around thatwith responsibility.
Some of us struggled in thosemoments.

Norman (32:12):
I mean I think it goes back to what I said from John Is
that you know this space wasn'tready.
Look, man, you can't name.
You could probably name aworship artist that came from a
single parent household beforeMaverick City, not a major one,

(32:33):
and I'm not saying that togeneralize.
No, what I'm saying, I'mteaching you know what I'm
saying.
We can name them.
You seen their parents.
I'm saying that to say theissues, the traumas, these, and
I'm not saying this to excusethem.
I'm adding color and contextbecause I think what this space

(32:53):
has lost and when they do thepaint the whole, oh,
christianity is bigger than yourrace.
Absolutely, I'm a Christianbefore I'm anything.
However, when I express mychristianity through life, I
express it through the prism bywhich the life I have lived.

Naomi (33:11):
I can't do it through anything else but you know I'm a
word person, right?
Yeah, so I don't.
Actually, I think what you'resaying is that you desire to
place christianity above yourblackness.
I do, but I think you wereblack before you were a
christian and and I don't thinkgod has a problem with I think
he knew me.
You know what I'm saying?
Place Christianity above yourblackness, I do, but I think you
were black before you were aChristian.

Norman (33:25):
I see, and I don't think God has a problem with I think
he knew me.
Before I was in my mother's.

Naomi (33:32):
No, he knew you but you didn't know him.
Okay, and so your firstexperience was being black and
being in the South and being aman and all of that stuff.
And I think the beautiful thingabout Christianity is that it
works in every culture, becausethe truth of God has to permeate
into where you are, and Ibelieve God can save us out of

(33:53):
all of that.
That does not mean our cultureis king.
It is not king.
I think we always have tosubject that stuff under Jesus.
And I think that's what you'resaying, but I think that
sometimes we do forget thatbefore we were saved we were
whatever we were.
But I think that sometimes wedo forget that before we were
saved we were whatever we wereand now Christ has to transform
us and that's a process.
That sanctification process isa real process and it's not
pretty, it's not cute.
I wish it was instant.

(34:13):
There are some people that comeoff the street and get sober in
a second and never touchnothing again and that's
beautiful and I think thatthat's good, but I don't believe
that that's every situation.
I think that that's good, but Idon't believe that that's every
situation.
I don't think that's everything.
We see that in the Bible we seethese people walk with Jesus.
Peter walked with Jesus andthen when Jesus died he was like
I'm going back to fish and hehad to be restored.

(34:34):
And there's even moments, evenafter Jesus ascends, and he sees
Jesus go up.
He sees the one that wasresurrected from that.
He watched him die, watched himcome back with holes in his
hand, then saw him ascend andthen he's still not treating
Gentiles the way that he'streating Jews.
People have issues and theyhave to keep working and God is
like it's okay.

Norman (34:54):
But feed my sheep.

Naomi (34:55):
Do this stuff anyway, and so that's the thing I want to
get, and I don't think that weshould.
We should Excuse nonsense.
No, we have to hold each otheraccountable, but there's, like
there has to be, this.
It's this weird tension that wehave to continue to grapple
with and have to continue tofight through.

Norman (35:10):
And that's what, oh, you're preaching.
So it's like, it's like.
It's like when I see some ofthe comments about
collaborations that we do andworking with people and they're
speaking to their sin nature andthis sin nature and that sin
nature, and I literally hadsomebody in the conversation I
said Judas walked with Jesusevery day.
Man, Judas walked with Jesusevery day.
He had the perfect example.
And because their comment to usalways is that when Jesus sat

(35:32):
with people, their lives changedimmediately, that's not true
though.

Naomi (35:36):
Oh no, oh but.

Norman (35:39):
He clearly encountered the rich young ruler.
He said hey, man.

Naomi (35:45):
He said hey man.
He said hey man.

Norman (35:46):
This money ain't much to lose.

Naomi (35:48):
But then some would argue that the rich young ruler
didn't inherit the kingdom.
No, he did not.
But we also don't know thatAfter he raised you we could
have changed that.

Norman (35:57):
But this is the key that didn't stop Jesus from giving
him the opportunity.

JJ (36:02):
That's true.

Norman (36:05):
Jesus didn't say no, knew he was going to turn the
rock away.
That's what we.
Jesus knew Jesus was going toturn on him.
Jesus knew Peter was going todeny him.
All of this like and a lot ofpeople in these commentators are
Peter they want to cut an earoff.
They want to cut the other earoff instead of being a lamb he
may not call they want to cuttheir ear off instead of being a
lamb he may not call.
They want us to do evangelismthe way they were called to do,

(36:31):
evangelism.
Where you see Peter and Paul,it's in the Bible for a reason,
because Peter had a way and youknow, get the vision where uh,
uh.

JJ (36:42):
The ram comes out of the sheet.
And you know what I'm saying.
He talked about it was uh uh,the ram comes out of the sheet
and uh tells her to clean it.

Norman (36:45):
He talked about it was uh.
He talked about eating theseunclean things.

Naomi (36:49):
Yeah, I know, and then he said don't call nothing unclean
.

Norman (36:52):
That I've called clean and that's because religious,
where his religion taught himthis one clean I've been to
clean, that was clean.
You can't.

Naomi (37:05):
So let me ask you a question, Because if I'm honest,
as you said, we get to it.
You can speak.
I think I'm uncomfortable withsome of these collabs, but I'm
telling you I'm uncomfortablebecause I'm a church girl and I
never want my good to be evilspoken of.
That's something that I grew upwith.
Do not let your good be evilspoken of.

(37:25):
I don't know, I don't know ifit's always good and I'm not.
And I literally am saying Idon't know because I don't know.
But I do know what you're sayingright now and I do know I
probably lean more towardPeter's side.
You know what I mean and that'swhy, that's why I'm hard on it,
because I know that that's thestuff that I have to work out in
myself.
I do not always know if it'sprofitable and I think that's

(37:49):
the thing, that's the thing thatI'd wrap it with.
But y'all know I would telly'all anything.
If I felt like something waslike awful wrong, I would say
something.
And the reason I haven't saidanything about it is because,
again, I don't know.
And when I hear stuff like thatI go because what's I guess?
I'm going, what's moreimportant Because I think, is

(38:11):
your platform, the space forevangelism to the people that
you're using the platform with.
Is that the right space?
Does it matter?
Is it interchangeable, Becauseyou're also influencing other
people?
So if there's like millions ofpeople that get to hear this
thing and might be confused bythat, is that good or is it more

(38:34):
important that you do the one?
I mean and these are realquestions that I have these are
the real questions we askourselves.

Norman (38:41):
You know I mean the real question.
I mean when M and I get to, Iliterally boom, we got to
advertise it, bro.
Pray, boom, that's it.
Pray.
If you get peace, let me know.
If I don't have peace, I'mgoing to let you know, but we
don't move without it.
That's exactly how ourconversation went Point blank,
period.
I think what has given mesolace in the process, in

(39:06):
conversations, has been twothings, which is 99 versus the 1
.
People that know him, that havethe good news, that have met
him, given their life.
I can't be more concerned withkeeping them well than I am

(39:28):
going to reach the sick.
If I don't work and I said so,let me ask you okay, no, no, I
want to ask you a question soyou feel like like doing a
gloria gloria feature is moreabout the unsaved yeah, for sure
than the saved.

Naomi (39:43):
So for you it's like hey, at this point this is
evangelical.

Norman (39:46):
This is not about the church, this is about the world
because when people say it wouldbe okay if it's on lab's album
and and not hers, well, whywould I put a song with glorilla
that opens by saying, yeah, myaudience that listens to
christian music.
Now they searching.
Who is glorilla?
You know what I'm saying like?
Who is thisilla?
You know what I'm saying Like?

(40:07):
Who is this that made up theside Versus versus people, the
people that are listening to theGorilla album, 90% of them
never putting on a Christiansong, probably their whole life.

Naomi (40:19):
I get that logic.

Norman (40:20):
They not.
They not going to find NeverCity, they not going to find
Perk Franklin Marble, southElevation, none of that.
And then they come, theystumble through, they get to
this point, no question.
She talking about God, shetalking about how she a sinner,
how she need to repent.
She talking about the beauty inthat Kirk giving a look, or
Gavin is mauling Kiara throwinglike who are these people?

(40:42):
What they talking about?
And then you know what happenedwhen you're struggling.
I going through TikTok, a girlin her bathroom, she crying.
She said I put on this girl'salbum and you know what?
I'm in the bathroom crying.
Well, I thought I was twerking,so I started scoping on this
song.
So and oh, now look, she'slooking up the artist.
She had a playlist to thatdownload she go through.

(41:05):
That was the first video she gothrough.
She now listen to worship music.
It's like, bro, if we did thatcollab just for that girl, it
was work and it was just for her.
And then the question I'm goingto stop, I'm going to let you
go.
The question is well, how doyou know what happened next?
I trust God with her.
I didn't save her to begin with.
We ain't saving her.
God is the one, the Holy Spiritis the one that does that work.

(41:28):
We aren't like people act likeGod gives that inquiry.
Yeah, people act like we do thesaving.
We don't do the saving, weprovide the seed, the
opportunity.

JJ (41:38):
He does the rest.
Yeah, I was going to say, evenwith the collab we did with
Connor, I mean, I think that wasthat's also a perfect example
of one of the first times weever had.
We were supposed to get on thephone, talk about creative, talk
about a song, and he goes.
He's like man, I just started,I just started reading the Bible
.
Like where should I start?
Right, like I'm new to thisfaith thing, I'm not sure where

(41:58):
I'm at, and we kind of have thismoment of like you're coming
into this thing, you don'treally know where you are.
I'm going to be there with you.
We're going to release thissong, we're going to find out a
way to do a song together thathonors where you are, but also
we're going to journey with youas you come into the faith.
I think there are these momentswhere I feel called to it's
purpose.
Right, we talk about this allthe time, whether it's us

(42:20):
performing at the Grammys ordoing something with the
Glorilla.
These things are connected topurpose.
They're not like random oh man,like let's chase the cloud,
let's see if we can get a bump.
No, no, no, no, no.
This is to preach the gospel sothat people can come to know
Jesus.
So we were texting about lastnight during the show you did,

(42:41):
the salvation call, which, bythe way, we can never do a show
without.
Without doing a show, I meanjust absolutely beautiful, but
it's like the fact that peopleliterally put their hands up and
said I am following this Jesusand they will spend eternity
with him.
There was nothing moreimportant to happen that night,
and I think that's the heart,that's the mission, that's the

(43:03):
purpose, that's connected to alot of decisions that we've made
when it comes to the collapse.

Norman (43:07):
So I think why this podcast is so important and why
I mean it's a beautiful thing tohave you on, is because this
narrative or this story or thisoh, they did that so they could
get more famous.
All of this, okay, all of ourcontent, is about Christ.
All of our content that we makeis about Jesus.

(43:30):
It's about the gospel, it'sabout goodness, it's about how
he, it's about worship to him.
We don't make.
Trust me, if this was about themoney, we would have walked in
on this first.
Like we're not like, we're notignorant.
Right this is.
We understand that our coreaudience is going to find issue

(43:53):
with this, but we can't disobeychrist and put out a
preservation of something in theworld like it's like.
That's what I said.
It's like this misunderstand aplatform is something he gave us
.
Yeah, if he give us a yes onthis and the platform go away,
so be it.

JJ (44:14):
I mean we say no to lots of things too right, of course it
has to meet a certain criteria,absolutely.
And I think these decisions,what you said earlier connected
to.
They're weighty, they'reconnected to purpose, but
they're also prayerful decisionsthat I think we make with the
understanding and desire thatman.
We just want people to come toknow Jesus and that's it.
That's literally it.

Naomi (44:34):
So yeah, I think that the church is going to have to be
okay that everything is not forthem you know, and but I do
think it's okay for people towonder or be concerned about hey
, does this, what is it like?
Uh, muddy our witness, orwhatever.
I think that that's importantand I believe that they should
keep saying what they want tosay about, because, god forbid,

(44:57):
we ever did, because paul saidthis right, like if I come
preaching to you, another gospel, don't believe me.
You know, I think there's a,there's something to saying hey,
if we start doing stuff, that'sus say something because
hopefully we can, of course,correct.
If we start doing stuff, let'ssay something because hopefully
we can, of course, correct if weneed to Pray for us, I'm never
right 100%.

Norman (45:13):
I always say I think what y'all are seeing here in
the beauty of Maverick City isthat we don't all agree.
And so when, like when,somebody walked me down the
ground and said they're excitedto see Lil' Ma's ex, I wasn't
excited to see Lil' Ma's ex.
Maverick City was not excitedto see Lil Nas X Girl, maverick

(45:35):
City excited to see Lil Nas X?
No, dante Brown was excited tosee Lil.
Nas X.
Why did everybody have to know?
You know what I'm saying,Somebody you know what I'm
saying.

Naomi (45:47):
It's a little twerky, but wasn't that the year that he
slid down the?
Yeah, he was like playing Satan.

Norman (45:54):
He had a lot going on, but I think that, like, and I
talk about this, I talk aboutthis, I think that we also there
was never room given toMaverick City for this, because
it doesn't exist, because thatwas the first collective that
wasn't a church.
So there, this because itdoesn't exist is that it was the
first collective that wasn't achurch so there wasn't a unified

(46:14):
theological stance amongstmembers.
Right, we it's all gonna do alltypes of denomination churches.
They do it under all type ofteaching, right, like, and when
you talk about an elevation,they're centered under the itch
of the pastor should beconverted.
So you know what they do.
They all gave him the samepreaching.
They're community together.
They live in the same city.

(46:35):
They're families.
They got similar backgrounds.
They're in similarsocioeconomic situations.

Naomi (46:41):
And they answer to something.

Norman (46:42):
They answer to something they speak based on For sure.
Bethel same thing, Sure.

JJ (46:49):
Pastor, for sure that's the same thing.
Sure Pastor, hill song.

Norman (46:51):
Pastor, you know what I'm saying.
Food worship pastor.
One house pastor Upper room.
Upper room pastor, maverickCity.
It disrupts that paradigmBecause they always Arthur who
was it At the time?
Chandler was with Pastor RobertMcGee, randy's at Seaco,
chandler was with Pastor RobertMcGee, Brandon's at Seacoast,
dante was with Eddie J.

(47:12):
Like it's, you don't know theplace.
You know I just own differenttypes.

Naomi (47:16):
I don't reach back to Eddie J.
I don't know what that's allfor.

JJ (47:20):
I don't know what that's all for.
I don't know what?

Norman (47:24):
No, no, but I'm saying that to say it's not you know
that's you got differentstandards there.

Naomi (47:28):
You got different leads Right, we were answering to us.

JJ (47:32):
More than that we were.
But the like, the motivation tobe there is, it's not like,
well, I'm going to disappoint mypastor if I decide I don't want
to do this anymore and I'mgoing to have to let 10 people.
It wasn't that.
It was just like, hey, we allcollectively want to do this and
we'll keep doing it.
And so, yeah, I think that alsomakes it hard, plus what we

(47:54):
were talking about earlieroutside forces.
Watch the money happens, Watchthe touring comes.

Norman (48:00):
Things start to get, you know, you start to feel it, man
, what happened was and wetalked about this with Dante,
unfortunate thing, and we talkedabout this with Darcy,
unfortunately and I got to see alot of what happened with y'all
from the outside and then theinside.
The guy was unique.
The unique is perspectivebecause from day from volume

(48:23):
three, part one on, nobodywanted y'all to succeed on
either side.
Like and people ain't gonna sayit now, but I mean when I was
allowed in the externalconversations before I became
affiliated, I could hear, Iheard who's fucking crazy about
us, norman oh I wasn't, Iactually got close

JJ (48:47):
to them from defending y'all I said I ain't got a dog in
this fight.

Norman (48:51):
But y'all talking about this, some random white people,
I said the people that aren'tblack.
But I think both of them youknow what I'm saying.
Like I said, uh-uh, JJ is white, I said JJ is the biggest black
guy.
But they were trying to makey'all out to be this thing that
it wasn't and a part of it was.

(49:12):
They just couldn't control it.
Sure, no one had control overit.

Naomi (49:16):
Literally not even.
Yeah, not even them.

Norman (49:19):
And so what they did was they played on it.
I'm going to be honest.
They played on the insecurityof the lack of defilement that
was given.
There was no structure bydesign.
They didn't want to controly'all.
And the react.
You know what happened.
Just like when you put theIsraelites and took them out of
slavery and they got in thewilderness they begged for

(49:41):
slavery again.
Because when you give somebodyfreedom that they don't
understand, that they are beinggiven, it's like this is too
good to be true.
Like why would somebody bedoing this?
That they don't understand,that they are being given, it's
like this is too good to be true.
Like why would somebody bedoing this?
And that's what people say oh,they ain't getting y'all, no
deal.

JJ (49:56):
They must be doing something .

Norman (49:58):
shady you ain't got no problem.
I don't know about that.
You ain't don't know.
That's what they were doing.
I remember it vividly.
I seen the deal Dante was aboutto sign and I said bro, why are
you signing this?
Oh, bro, I just think it's thebest thing.
Why did I have nothing to?

Naomi (50:15):
do with you.

Norman (50:16):
I said, bro, just stay like it is, Like you're getting
all the benefits without havingto commit.

JJ (50:23):
Yeah, that's like you.

Naomi (50:24):
Sorry, I was going to say I think that I'll speak from
the artist's side.
I think it's sorry, I was goingto say I think that I'll speak
from the artist's side.
I think it's like yeah, that'sworking now until they don't
want me anymore, exactly.
And then so if I don't lock insomething that is permanent,
then at any point I could be putout, which I think is the other

(50:46):
thing that so, like, whileeverybody on every side didn't
want us to win, I thinkinternally there was I'm
realizing now an internalcompetition, not for a place of
jealousy or like comparison,because I don't really think we
fully had that.
I think some people had that,but most of us, I don't think,
had the like I want you to fail.
But it wasn't I want you tofail, it was just I want to win.
And so I think it was like it'shard if you feel like somebody

(51:10):
else is going to get picked forthe song over me, I don't know
how to, how to deal with thatand I don't know if I should
latch on to somebody that'smaybe saying that I'm valuable
and I'm special, I'm important,when next album I might not be
valuable and have and and andthose.

JJ (51:23):
Those kinds of realities are like, they're a little tough to
get through, but you can getthrough them no, they're very
tough to get, but but what Ithink?

Naomi (51:31):
well, yeah, I mean look at, look at, look at this, look
at, look at it yeah, for sure.

JJ (51:35):
What I was gonna say is I think what upped the ante,
though, on that stuff was whenthings got a lot more pro.
Yeah, when we had to do a tourand it was like, hey, these
people are making x, thesepeople are making x, and it's
like why, I'm not why?

Naomi (51:51):
am I not making this?
That's your fault, norman jumpywait.

JJ (51:54):
Why is it?
Why is that wait what?

Naomi (51:56):
no, because I think, can I tell you the truth?
I feel like and maybe I'm wrong, I have to be real.
I think when people startedgetting different pay, that's
when it was like okay, you'renot valuing what I bring, even
if it's not the most major part.

Norman (52:16):
So you feel like we should have paid everybody.

Naomi (52:19):
Low key yes.

Norman (52:21):
And.

Naomi (52:21):
I'm saying that, I think, as somebody who made more than
some other people.

JJ (52:24):
Do you feel okay?
That's actually a reallyinteresting perspective.

Naomi (52:28):
other people do you feel okay, that's, that's an
interesting, that's actually areally interesting perspective?

JJ (52:31):
yes, because it's based on so I know you listen it's based
on how it was started and likeoh, this is just like everybody
who is but but you know, andthis is the thing that I, this
is the thing that I think wedidn't do a great job of it's
like how we started wasn't wherewe were.
Yeah, like we were evolving andfast, right, right.
When you have to make adecision that was one of the
things we talked about withDante it's like, when you have

(52:53):
to make a decision, hey guys, wegot four spots on a billboard
in New York City and you canonly have two people from
Maverick City.
It's like, okay, that's,somebody's not going to get
their picture on this billboardthat we're going to post and
it's going to be a big moment,right.
When we have, hey guys, we gotsix bunks and there's 80 of them

(53:13):
.
Two of y'all can't make it.
Hey guys, we got 10 slots forsongs and we know that there's
13 songs in the banks.
Three songs are going to haveto get cut and we can't not do
Jyra Promises In the Room.

Norman (53:33):
I think the question that Iwould ask Naomi, frankly,
honestly, is this Even if youpaid everybody the risk of it I
mean, just think of it from thisway, young Chandler, god say it
, brandon Y'all wouldn't be theones that would happen to be
agreed to the sacrifice?

Naomi (53:48):
Yes.

Norman (53:50):
And the reality is to any rational business person.
It is this If I'm going to,what am I going to appease?

Naomi (53:59):
I know, because you risk almost losing.

Norman (54:05):
It's just certainly Can.

Naomi (54:06):
I say something, though I think we should have valued
Aaron the same way y'all valuedus for, because I don't think
y'all realized how much of a ofan integral part he played in
Maverick City.
I think that's the biggestmistake that y'all made, if I'm
honest.

JJ (54:22):
Congratulations here we are.

Naomi (54:25):
I think that's actually the biggest mistake y'all made,
because and I'm saying that morethan I I love you guys more
than Joel, more than anybody.
Aaron his point like a part ofwhy we were able to do what we
did is because we werecollaborating with him and what
we were doing together musically, that made sense and I feel

(54:46):
like y'all didn't value him.

JJ (54:49):
That's actually not true.

Naomi (54:50):
No at where he needed to be valued I think it's so good.

JJ (54:57):
I'm going to be very honest with you.
We had a lot of conversationswith Aaron and he will attest to
this.
This is fact.
There were things that we saidto him.
It was like hey man, you, heyman, you feel x right?
Hey, I want to be a producer, Ifeel like I need to get this
whatever, blah, blah, cool,we're down with that.
Here's how we do it.
This is our process.

(55:19):
We are involved at this point,at this point, at this point, at
this point, you need to beinvolved at the same level and
you need to take this seriously.
And I'm not saying they didn'ttake things seriously, but there
were things that, like, weagreed to that, like hey, I'll
be involved in this, and he andhe wasn't right.

Naomi (55:38):
No, I get that.
I think that's even later.
Ok, so I think I think evenbefore that, even before that, I
think if we honored Aaron'sdesire to write, because he
desired to be in a lot ofwriting rooms and he was made to
come to band rehearsals, Ithink that all of that's cool,
but that was where I think a lotof this started for Aaron.

JJ (55:59):
I don't want to speak for anybody else, but I think I mean
that's a lot of what Dante saidtoo Like how the way he was
moving and like like he wasfighting for his boy, you know
what I mean.

Naomi (56:13):
Like when he was not showing up to stuff and he was
giving people— but I think heshould have had a conversation.
Of course, I think where youshow up and stand up for
somebody is in conversation,which I remember having multiple
conversations with Tony andfighting for Aaron in actual
conversation, not in beingdelinquent in your actual work.

Norman (56:27):
Sure.

Naomi (56:27):
So I don't know if that was an effective tactic.

Norman (56:33):
I think the tough juxtaposition between Aaron and
the rest of y'all, when you'retalking about value, I think
Aaron was I'm not notifying, Iwas Aaron was valued financially
appropriately, I think, in.
I think what you're talkingabout isn't as an expression or
how we actually internally feltand how it was made manifest to

(56:58):
him, because Aaron, aaron wasdoing this dance of wanting to
be an artist, wanting to be aproducer at the same time.
Many times you see theexcitement of JJ, tony and
myself when we win something.
It's the work that happenedleading up to a song coming to

(57:19):
life.
Absolutely Is hard.
It's as I'm not going to say Iain't never got no stage to sing
in front of nobody, so I'm notgoing to say it's the same
parallel, but it's meaningfuland I think that his view along
the other, the team is that hewas a producer but I think so.

Naomi (57:37):
I, yes, I don't.
I think production, uh, I thinkmusic producing.
He was a part of that and Ithink he should have been
honored as that, even if hedidn't because we don't all have
to do the same thing in orderto be honored as a part of what
happened.
I think you could say, oh, wecan just grab any old person and

(57:59):
do it.

Norman (58:00):
I think what I'm saying to you is this it would be like
this.
It would be like you telling usyou know what I'm going to
write on every Maverick song,because I done made this brand
big, whether I'm in the writingroom or not.
That's what I'm saying to you.

Naomi (58:13):
I don't think that's the equivalent.

Norman (58:15):
It is when you are saying you want to be a producer
and you don't show up to doproducing work.

Naomi (58:21):
I get that.
So, like this is what I said,Because I played.

Norman (58:26):
I vibed with Naomi at the live recording.
But you don't cut the song down, you don't come show up to the
mix sessions, you don't reviewthe song, you don't do nothing
but play the piano.
No, no, I get that.

Naomi (58:37):
I get this.
This is what I'm saying.
I don't think that that momenthe could have fought for that.
I think Aaron made thosedecisions because he was told
stuff in the beginning and theword was not kept, and I think
that was retaliatory.

JJ (58:53):
I never told Aaron a thing that I didn't keep my word with,
and I want to be very clearabout that.

Naomi (58:57):
I don't know that.
That's true, JJ Okay, but I'mjust saying I remember things
and honestly, I've seen textmessages and maybe most of it
was Tony, but I've seen stuffwhere it's like, and then when
it came down to it it was likeoh man, next time, like, oh,
like, so sorry, we'll get itnext time, and I think that's
the stuff and I think he made apoor decision.
I think he should have.

(59:17):
Just still, if you want toproduce, show up to the stuff.
I've seen Aaron not show up tocertain things that I feel like
he should have showed up to.
I think he was hurt and that'swhat we were saying.
I don't think a lot of thisstuff is about money.
I think people's feelings werehurt and when your feelings get
hurt.

Norman (59:32):
He mentioned aaron on.
I thank god.
He told us about that dante did.
He told us about and felt likehe should live.
I thank god from the jump hedid, he didn't need it no, it
was on tour.

Naomi (59:44):
Yeah, like why didn't he?

Norman (59:45):
he just sang when dante said that he called him up to
sing, that something happenedwhen we cut a song.

Naomi (59:52):
No, no, no, that's about Be Praised.

Norman (59:54):
Okay, be Praised.
I mean, this is hard, this isit.
This is it.

JJ (01:00:00):
This is what I mean.
If we're being really honest,these are the things Lake
struggled with and felt at timesin a moment I mean a lot of
artists struggle with this it'slike I'm showing up.
This is what I love aboutMaverick City it is the best of
the best coming together, andwhen you come together and you

(01:00:22):
collaborate, everybody has tolay a strength down in favor of
the people that they're leadingalongside, that is that is a
hard thing to do.
When you're watching someonelead a moment.
You're going I could lead thatbetter.
I wish I was singing that Icould.
I could make that moment.
You have to lay that down andsay you know what?

(01:00:43):
I'm giving this to them.
I'm gonna let to let them leadthis I'm going to honor Like
there were moments last night,songs that I know you wrote.
You didn't lead them and otherpeople led them and it's like
you carry that so beautifullyand I think that is what.
When you pull the through line,that was what we really
struggled with as things got big.

Norman (01:01:05):
It's not even it's exactly what you're saying.
This thing has got big.
It's not even the thing.
It's exactly what you're saying.
The thing about it is no,maverick is a victim of its own
success.
Maverick is a victim of its ownsuccess.
There was, without this thingbeing, a church where everyone

(01:01:26):
answered to someone and wherethe decisions were made by a
pastor, so I'm already in apositive honor from John.

JJ (01:01:39):
You're just happy to be there.

Norman (01:01:42):
The reason why there's no success for all-star teams in
the NBA is because if you putlike Jason Tatum on the Dream
Team, the boy had just won thechampionship.

Naomi (01:01:51):
The championship.

Norman (01:01:52):
He had just won.

JJ (01:01:55):
But guess what?

Norman (01:01:56):
You're not starting over LeBron you don't even start on
the dream, you don't even startin the Olympics, you just wipe
all of these dudes.

Naomi (01:02:03):
But that's just ego and pride.
So to me it's like it's for the.
I'm'm about to tell you what itis.
You think it's.

Norman (01:02:08):
Florida because Tasha.

Naomi (01:02:08):
Cobb's Leonard, is on this tour and there's no way on
God's green earth that I'm goingto assert myself over her,
because I honor her, I honorwhat she's done in this industry
and in this space and I'm neverlike now.
I'm not saying she's going tosing Promises but but also, but
also, this is my tour, right?

(01:02:29):
This is, this is maverick.
Y'all know we talked about that.
I'm not like, I'm not well, youdidn't collaborate.
But at the same time, like yousaid, like tasha's singing more
than able with chandler.
And remember when we did thatat the mavway, me and me and
chandler and tasha was supposedto lead and I said, let I pull
out like y'all got it, because,because I don't need to do

(01:02:50):
everything and I can defer and Ican think about the greater
good of the song.

Norman (01:02:53):
It's clear that you can do it.
That's why you're the onethat's still here.

JJ (01:02:58):
The reality she has the ethos.

Norman (01:02:59):
Yeah, it's not the ethos they only has a pastor.
That requires her to prove thatrequires her to be in the word
that requires her to go throughprocess that requires her to die
to herself daily.
That requires she hasdiscipleship, she has

(01:03:21):
accountability, she doesn't havepeople that are in her ear echo
chambering the worst parts ofher.
That's so good.

Naomi (01:03:30):
That's so good she's wondering why my past is on tour
with me.
So I say right.
Are y'all okay.

Norman (01:03:36):
That's good.
When you go back, when you getmad that you didn't get to lead
a song and you go back and thevery words said to you is you
would have did that better, youdon't need to.

JJ (01:03:48):
Yeah, that's good, that's good, you can do it like this
Instead of you can do ityourself.

Norman (01:03:53):
Now the reality is and I'm going to say it.
I'm going to say it, but lookright at this camera.
The reality is, all of theoriginal members of Maverick
City would have been better offtoday if they were still in
Maverick City Together, doingthis together.
There will be better people,there will be better partners,
there will be better husbands,there will be better wives,
because what this requires youto do is to die.

(01:04:16):
Lay down your preference, pickup someone else's preference.
Pick up someone else's need.
Be a great partner.
Be a great person.
Do you think I, the businessperson, decided one day I'm
gonna be the most successfulChristian executive in the world
?
I don't even know.

(01:04:38):
I'm tone deaf.
God decided this for me.
God decided hey, bro, you gonnatell them the genre of music
that I'm gonna use yourexpertise to revitalize.
There was no gossip.
Worship Ain't no reason.
God said I'm gonna use thistone that I do for no reason.

(01:04:58):
And they laid him out in theclub, threw out his phrase and
stuff, and you know what?
Yep, he gonna be the one.
He gonna be, the one she gonnabe.
And what happened to Lux Once,once you gonna think of one, she
gonna think Eddie, whathappened to Lux Once?
Barbara got stuff?
Everybody now, like anybody,when you get rich, all the
prayers, all the prayers youhave, all of that, you start to

(01:05:20):
lose that humility, you start tolose that meekness, you start
to lose that desperation anddesire to be right with him and
then because, alright, it'sabout me now, I don't need this,
I'm here now.
In the beginning, everyoneneeded it.
When it became a choice, yougot to see the actual integrity

(01:05:43):
of people and that's the reality.
If it's family, let me tell yousomething my brother was my
first cloud.
We still have parties.
I still have turdics Because weget in arguments.
We still family.
Knock down, drive down.
We still family.
All right, I ain't coming toyour son's birthday.

(01:06:04):
My kid's going to be there,because we still family.
Family does not separate or itdoesn't stop being family,
because things don't go my way.

Naomi (01:06:20):
I think you don't think we're still family.

Norman (01:06:22):
No, I do not.

Naomi (01:06:24):
Dang.
No, I'm still family witheverybody.

Norman (01:06:28):
You are not even still.

Naomi (01:06:29):
I am, they might not be with me but I'm with them.

Norman (01:06:33):
All right cool, we feel the same way, we ain't doing
nothing to stop nobody fromsharing, but no, I do not think
we're still family.
I think that what we are now is, I think, we divorced.
I think that's what a lot ofthe relationships are.
I think that there was acovenant relationship that God
ordained that has been permanentno, I wouldn't say permanent

(01:06:54):
because we would reconcile withanybody but that has been
fractured due to self.

Naomi (01:07:02):
That's very sad.

Norman (01:07:04):
It's really sad.

Naomi (01:07:05):
Well, I knew a lot of what people were dealing with is
spiritual, and I guess that'swhy I'm still family with
everybody, despite what's goingon and despite how people feel.
But I think I wish, I think Iwish that we took more time.
I think this is you know, y'allkeep saying like we were an

(01:07:27):
overgrown toddler, we werebuilding a plane, like while
we're flying it, and I thinkstuff kept being said like that.
I think we keep trying toexcuse our actions by just how
hard it was.
We all could have shown moregrace to one another.
And I think one thing I dorespect and why I'm still around

(01:07:50):
, I think is that I do respectthat y'all are able when I say
y'all, I mean y'all too arewilling to get on the phone and
have conversations with people.
I wish that we were that wayfrom the beginning, like just
open and amenable and willing tolisten.
The other thing is that somepeople aren't willing to talk,

(01:08:10):
so sometimes you don't hearabout stuff until after it's
over.
But I low-key, I think this isprobably the most traumatic
thing I've ever been a part ofin my whole entire life.
And seriously no, I'm seriousI've birthed three children.
I have like this is like thehardest thing, cause, I think,

(01:08:31):
when you're dealing with peopleand relationships and people
that you've actually knityourself together with, and then
you see number one, the enemy,take people out, but then what
feels like what?
We should have, I think, beenmore mature to just be patient.
I don't know that we alwayswere, I think, if I'm, if I'm
honest, though, when I look back, I think there were many times
that we were very patient andpeople just decided to to go

(01:08:53):
like I'm not, I'm not doing it,it's it just it sucks uh, it's
really I, I'm really what you'resaying is really touching me
and I'm it's ministering to me.

JJ (01:09:02):
I I've been thinking about because, because, because what
you're really saying is like Iremember there being moments
where I would hear like, oh,this person said this to such
and such and they feel a certainkind of way right.
And then I'd meet with thatperson like hey, what's going on
?
And eye to eye, and theycouldn't say what I knew they
had said to somebody else abouthow they were feeling.

(01:09:24):
And it's like, and I look backon those moments and I'm like
man, I should have taken that asa sign of like man.
This thing is growing reallyfast and people just they're
they're feeling uncomfortable inhow they like see themselves in
relation to it.
They don't know, like the rightthings to ask.
They don't really like thisdisorienting, right, I mean, I

(01:09:45):
think, but but I mean that's thereality of what I think, a lot
of things, what we went through,which, which was difficult,
it's like we're trying to lead,we have conversations.
We feel like we get told onething, it's another thing.
It's like it's this weird like,but you're right, it's like
patience, but, but it's alsoreally difficult because it's
like how patient can you be, asyou're trying to like, lock

(01:10:05):
things in and build things andmake decisions that are
affecting everything that we'redoing right?

Norman (01:10:11):
for y'all just to get y'all just do y'all a solid man.
Y'all were extremely patient,y'all extremely forgiving.
Y'all were extremely um, umenal, yeah, willing to check.
I I would say when I saw what,because I'm totally different.
I wasn't like that.
I wasn't like that.

(01:10:33):
And so one thing they changedand all of y'all changed.
I remember Naomi told me shesaid you got to be willing for
any of them to come back.
I said Naomi, you crazy, ain'tnone of them jokes?
And I remember the day I calledher and said you know what?
Anybody can come back, becausethe reality of the heart posture
that y'all always held amongsteach other was that the door was

(01:10:55):
always open and y'all kept thatamongst each other.
A lot of what transpired wasjust that people's original
motives just came true andeveryone didn't have the same
mood.
There ain't no blame.
It's cool Because it was acollective.
To some people it was abusiness decision.
To some people it was family.

(01:11:17):
To some people it was somethingthey were doing for God.
To some people it was astepping stone for their career
because they had never beennoticed.
They've been trying to do thisfor all and there was nothing.
For some of them.
There was nothing y'all couldhave done different.
They was going to do what theycame to do, and I think we see
that out.

(01:11:37):
I think it's pretty honest.
I just do believe.
Only only we got to participatewith my best friend.
You don't want either of us.
I didn't say this, no, not atall you don't want you to bring
attention to it.
I did something that stuck myhead on.

Naomi (01:11:48):
I'm sorry.
I'm sorry I didn't bring yourattention to it.

Norman (01:11:51):
I mean it's sad, bro, like when you really like, you
know what I'm saying.
Like I mean it's, bro, when yousaid it's the most traumatic
thing that ever happened, effortthat has been poured into
everything.
Like man, I'm telling you I'llbe laying in my bed sometime

(01:12:12):
reading these comments.
I'm like how could this be howsomeone perceived our heart, how
could this be the way youperceive our heart to be?
It don't even make sense.
It's like I think there'smoments when she says say what
you're saying, because there'smoments.
It's like I think there'smoments, and what she said, say
what you're saying, becausethere's moments.
It's like, bro, I'm like I'mgoing to school.

(01:12:35):
I'm like man, are we Like wedid a demonic thing with Will
Smith on the BET?
How, how, how, how, how, howyou know, and then, beyond that,
you get to the nitty grittyabout relationship with other
artists.
It's like, again, man, you'llhear these things.
And it's like man, it was nevernone of that.

(01:12:56):
But we don't.
You don't get the opportunity.
My wife taught me this.
You don't get the chance totell someone how what you did
impacts them you.
You don't get the chance totell someone how what you did
impacts them.
You can't decide that, how whatyou did impacts them.
Your intent don't change theimpact and you have to be
willing to be accountable forthe impact of your actions,

(01:13:20):
regardless of what you intend.
And that's the thing I thinkeverything is struggling with.
I mean, you know, as I lookback, what does that mean?
What does it look?
like Willing to be accountable,you have to be willing to be
accountable for your impact.
Oh, I mean that means, if Aaronsays we lied and we did him

(01:13:43):
wrong, that we go back andreconcile it, whether that's the
truth or not.
And it means that it's like youcan't be so self-righteous that
, well, I ain't do that, itdon't matter, it don't matter if
you did it or not.
The good, the christ-like thingchrist ain't seeing he still
died on the cross.
Yeah, you should have said so.
It's that.
It's literally being like jesussaid, even though I didn't do

(01:14:06):
that, his life, his destiny, theway he was called to do,
requires me to apologize forsomething I didn't do.
It requires me to compensatesomeone for something I never
said I was going to compensate.
It requires me to give creditfor someone who didn't earn it,
because his destiny is attachedto that affirmation.

(01:14:29):
And when we talk about cultureand upbringing, we don't know
why he desired that so bad.
But you made me the first fanto ever give him that accrual,
to give him that affirmation, tohonor his effort.
Even though it lacked to yourcenter, it didn't lack to God's

(01:14:50):
and that's all that matters.
We got some caught up in momentsand, oh, he ain't doing all
that I did.
It's like a self-righteousperson saying oh, why God using
them?
Why would God use them?
I've been in my closet, forI've been.
I ain't going to use Chell hegot two kids.
I've been careful.
Ain't going to use cell he gottwo kids, I've been careful.
That's what it is.

(01:15:11):
It's like we got so caught up inhe wasn't doing as much as us
that we lost the fabric in theheart of who cares, yeah, who
cares, who cares?
And when you said we shouldhave played, we should have
played it by the same.
And then the top artists leftwho cares?
Then we were left with thepeople who were supposed to be
there.
That's the truth.

(01:15:34):
That's the truth Because thepurity of it is when you do
things from an integral placeand you do things from a pure
place, the results you canalways be okay with.
You have what we have right nowwe're going through right now.
That is, man, we didn't do thebest we could.
We didn't do the best we could,and that's the truth.

(01:15:57):
I ain't never felt like thisbefore, right now, before, I
always thought we did.
I mean.

Naomi (01:16:03):
I think maybe we did the best, we knew how, and y'all did
.

Norman (01:16:07):
That's the truth.

Naomi (01:16:09):
But it's not necessarily what we could have done.

JJ (01:16:13):
You know yeah.

Naomi (01:16:15):
And not that I don't think every decision was a wrong
decision.
I don't.
I'm remembering that to certainthings and conversations that
we had and agreements that wemade and people were struggling
Do you need to get help?
Do you need, like send you touh, uh, counseling and all sorts

(01:16:35):
of stuff like like, what do youneed?
I do think that there was a lotthat that was done right and so
I think sometimes it's justeasy.
You know, it's like you get 99the comments, you get that one
bad comment and it's like Ithink for me, the most part,
like sometimes it's it's readingthose comments, which is why I
don't read comments anymore.
It's where people kind ofmisconstrue the heart and intent

(01:16:57):
of us, where I feel like we'veno, I feel like we've gone
through so much to like let thismusic out, like I remember us
like in the middle of covid,when nobody knew what was going
on, us going to record songs toencourage people's hearts, man,
all of that like just it wasn'tabout, it really was not about
money, because there was nomoney to be made in a shack.

(01:17:19):
We were recording in a shack,literally Like it was for the
love of the music and the loveof the ministry and believing
that the Lord had given us songsfor the people.
And in doing that, to hearpeople just kind of be like, oh,
you're trying to murder that,it's like that's not it.
And even if somebody has maybean ego problem or like I know

(01:17:40):
everybody that was involved inthis the heart was and I can
pretty much like take this tomake I believe people's hearts
was to actually bless people,even if they wanted an
opportunity, even if they wantedto be famous too.
I do believe that at the coreof everybody and maybe I'm just
no, I'm with you I think theheart was the same to try to

(01:18:01):
bring people and use our giftsto glorify God.

Norman (01:18:04):
Philippians tell us man, even if their heart wasn't in
the right place, don't rejoicein the one right because they,
because what they sang about wasthe gospel, they were worse
than the hoods.

JJ (01:18:15):
I wanted to speak to the moment.
I feel like what's your, youremotion that I think you're
experiencing is.
I want to say this like everyperson that has left in any way
that they've left, however,however they left, there is a
sadness to it and as we werelike talking through some of
these, like it just I don't know, I just I was.

(01:18:37):
You were talking about beingtraumatic.
I was just thinking about, man,there's been a lot of loss, man
, there's been a lot of loss andum, I, um, yeah, I just man, I,
I'm, I am sorry for anythingthat I did to make someone feel
like they didn't have space here, and whether that was my

(01:18:59):
immaturity or bad communicationor whatever, I just I don't know
.
I'm, just I'm.
I just want to honor the moment, cause I've.
What you're experiencing is.
I think these are things thatwe've probably push away the
feelings of, because we have toget through it.
I remember, you know, yeah, andand I just I think it's cool to

(01:19:20):
just take a moment just to say,like man, that it is hard
because what we, what we did,was so special and and that's
what.
When I told dante the other daywhen he was sitting on this
couch.
It was like like yourcontribution, your contribution
there, like if there is nomaverick city, if we don't come
together and and and do this andcreate and I don't know.

(01:19:43):
I just want to honor that.
I don't want anyone to look atthis and be like man, they're
just talking about us in thisnonchalant, who cares?
No, like it when you say thenames, when you say Aaron, when
you say Dante, when you like it.
It brings a rush of emotion andI just yeah, yeah, man, lots of
respect and if there's anythingthat we can do to fix those

(01:20:05):
things, we're at a check for $1million to me.

Naomi (01:20:09):
I'll make sure everybody gets their cut.

JJ (01:20:11):
No just kidding, that's gross.

Norman (01:20:16):
You know it's like when I see the comments and you know
they talk vile for vile, for,vile for vile for vile for vile
for you think we're going to doit Well we've talked about this.

JJ (01:20:28):
I hope we do it I hope we do it.
I hope we figure out a way todo it.
I know that's going to, I thinkthat we are.

Norman (01:20:38):
I mean, and that was a point where it was a 1% chance,
I think it's up to a 75% chancethat it's pop.
Wow, I do.

JJ (01:20:49):
Grows 74 points.

Norman (01:20:51):
I think we grow.
In the past year I think itgrew 74 points and I do believe
I want to commend both of y'all.
He's not as personal to mebecause when I came around it
was two brain structure and twobrain business and I didn't by
nature and business I tell notto form personal relationships

(01:21:12):
because I know people don't dealwith it well, so like I didn't
start calling Naomi my sisteruntil I actually felt I ain't
the one.

Naomi (01:21:21):
I'm like that too.
Why are we so close?

Norman (01:21:25):
I ain't the one that's going to hit you.
Oh, brother, that ain't no oneI remember.
And, joel, I'm sorry for this.
I remember this.
I know I missed this.
I'm so sorry, joel, I'm sorry,I am sorry.
Jj didn't have nothing to dowith it.
Tony had nothing to do with it.
We was doing his tutoring manand he had to say something to
somebody else and I said Blake,you ain't doing one of them

(01:21:45):
assholes.

JJ (01:21:46):
That's so savage, bro, come on.
Well, I don't know I don't knowno other.

Norman (01:21:52):
It's a business conversation and I'll tell the
truth.
Why am I?
Because you're doing one ofsong or she's doing my seven
songs, like I'm confused.
Why are you getting it?
Because he was asking.

Naomi (01:22:05):
No, dante was telling everybody what he was making, so
Joel was like wait why am Imaking this, but he's making
that?

Norman (01:22:16):
And so it was like well, let's break it down this is why
you're making it, which, yeah,I feel what I'm saying is that
you probably shouldn't have hadthat conversation.

JJ (01:22:25):
I shouldn't, yeah.

Norman (01:22:26):
Y'all had a culture, but the thing was this it's like in
one hand they wanted this iswhat?
If I can say what the artistsreally wanted?
They wanted, I just really want.
They wanted what I was sayingin the way you and Tony said
things Gotcha.
They wanted the truth, theywanted honesty, they wanted

(01:22:49):
transparency, but they didn'twant it from a like
non-emotional type.
They wanted a couch.

Naomi (01:22:58):
It's not just non-emotional.
I remember the first time I metyou we're in, or maybe the
first time I remember we're inthe elevation I think I might
have told you this.
I was like, uh-uh, I'm notdealing with that, no more.
We are in elevation, like thatlittle green room, and he's like
I'm going to be managing Naomior I.
I was like who is this?

(01:23:18):
Are you all guys?
I said that, is he all right?
And I was like you don't manage, like he don't manage me.
Because I saw like I was like,even if I'm one of these, like
other girls, like I'm not thatone.
I know I be singing sweet and Ihave like a pure tone, but it's
more corrupt Yo, I said what isgoing on with this, yo?

(01:23:40):
back then you were talking junkRiley.
It was a lot going on Back then.

Norman (01:23:46):
you know, it wasn't what , no, I just saw y'all.
It wasn't what it was with meBack then.
I was such a hot shot in myhead, man, because I might have
done something.
Naomi, all the controversies,all the Will Smith, dante, paul,
gloria, upside down crossingAfrica, did you ever see that

(01:24:07):
crossing stage?

Naomi (01:24:08):
No, you know what?
I didn't even.
I found out on TikTok, likeeverybody else, because, well,
people were sending it to melike do you know about this?
And I'm like what, why would webe using?
The whole tour in Africa wasnot put together well, talk
about it, talk about it.
Y'all.

Norman (01:24:26):
We can talk about it.

Naomi (01:24:30):
It was not well done by the people who were running that
tour and everything wasvariable every single night, so
there was nothing consistent andapparently the file got
inverted.

Norman (01:24:46):
It's the file that we used from Kingdom.
Tour in America.

Naomi (01:24:52):
Right.

Norman (01:24:53):
The stained glass that we projected right over 75 times
.

Naomi (01:24:59):
Right.

Norman (01:25:00):
I didn't even know it was a cross at that top.

Naomi (01:25:03):
I didn't know, they had to point it out.
Zoom and circle Like I wouldn'thave even known.

Norman (01:25:12):
Why wouldn't you guys stop the show?
Because they're facing theaudience singing out about
Christ Jesus, how good he is.
First off, this symbolism thingthat y'all do like it's so mis
Like Satan ain't a symbol.
You can't take the color redand make it Satan.

(01:25:33):
You can't take fire and make itSatan.
The Holy Ghost is parallel tofire in the Bible.
You can't.
The cross can be upside down,left, right, upside the cross
don't represent Jesus.
Left, right, upside the crossdon't represent Jesus either.

Naomi (01:25:46):
Why would it?
To some Christians it doesrepresent the resurrection, but
also the upside down cross forsome Christians represents
Peter's crucifixion.
He said I don't think I'mworthy to be crucified the same
way that Jesus was, so put mycross upside down and that's how
he was crucified.
So for some that symbol meanssomething else.

(01:26:07):
I think the reality is, symbolsmean different things to
different people, and I think wecan.
We can.
I don't want to say thatthey're crazy for thinking.
I'm not saying that it's justlike guys, we are a Christian
group, like we're saying we'resinging about Jesus.

JJ (01:26:21):
We're singing Firm Foundation.

Norman (01:26:23):
Yeah, that's the thing.

JJ (01:26:23):
That's the thing that I'm standing on is that you can't.

Norman (01:26:26):
if you see an upside-down cross while I'm
singing, christ is my firmfoundation.
Where is the demonic behaviorLike?
Where is it?
Because the cross upside-down,you're demonic, okay, but I am
saying Christ is my firmfoundation.
Tyra, you are a love Enoughbless me it's the Like I'm

(01:26:52):
giving you the hell.
What a bad thing.

Naomi (01:26:55):
I mean, I think, okay, you know I can.
I think that they're sayinglike it's a, you know it's a
trick, so they're going to tryto get you with little by little
and like, one day you know whatI'm saying the road to hell is
paved with good intentions.
It's like you think you'redoing the right thing, or it's
these little things that get you.
But did Bible also say it was akingdom?

Norman (01:27:22):
a kingdom divided with itself.
What's that?

Naomi (01:27:24):
How do?

Norman (01:27:24):
I test out demons using the devil Right.

Naomi (01:27:28):
No, you're right, I almost sent you to hell using
the gospel.
But most of the people that areupset about this stuff are not
reading the Bible.
They're watching YouTube videosabout the Illuminati and like
other stuff.
And I'm not talking about theIlluminati and like other stuff,
and I'm not you had to talkabout the Illuminati or other
stuff but I think that they'regetting Lord into this.
It's a, it's a fascination andobsession with the, with

(01:27:49):
darkness, and personally I thinkwhen you focus on on darkness,
that's what you start to see.
The Bible says to the pure, allthings are pure, and so I think
there it just cause all thingsare pure, and so I think they're
it just because it doesn't makesense to the pure all things.
That's good, it just it doesn'tmake sense and that's the stuff
like that's the stuff that makesme very sad.
It's like when people get onand go like don't go to your

(01:28:12):
concert because you're gonna belike I don't know what it's,
this is the devil's work.
It's we're not doing thedevil's work.
I, I don't there, I just don'teven have time to do the devil's
work is we're not doing thedevil's work.
I, I don't.
Then I just don't even havetime to do the devil's work.
I seriously don't have time todo his work.

JJ (01:28:25):
I don't know what it's, just it bastards me, we we were
honestly baffled too becauselike at first we were kind of
like this is stupid, this willblow over, but as it we didn't
even really want to respond toit.
It was kind of like we wereforced to because it just kind
of kept raising and like itslevel of I just remember
thinking like this is so stupid,like it's the, it's, it's the

(01:28:47):
whole.

Norman (01:28:49):
This is the reality.
This is the thing that reallygets to me.
We've never like for all theselittle fake controversies, that
like there's like what, what,what, what?
Anyway, all the controversysurrounding Madison, okay, let's
hit it.
Dante, don't say he was excitedto see Lil Nas X.
That's controversy.
What does that mean?

(01:29:09):
The audience, oh well they keeptalking.

Naomi (01:29:18):
Well, I think that is controversial.
Okay, I think that iscontroversial because if
somebody does music that is, itseems like so opposite from this
other artist and they're sayingthat they listen to them, that
is controversial.
I'm gonna say well, that'sprobably why you don't know, but
I did see.
No, no, but I did see one ofhis music videos where he's like

(01:29:40):
dancing with Satan or somethingand like to me I go, this is
really far from Old Town Road,you know, like this is.
This is very different.
And now this person is seemingto be like against the church
and seeming to be like in lovewith Satan.

Norman (01:29:59):
So why say that?

JJ (01:29:59):
you're excited to see that person.
To me that is controversial asa.

Naomi (01:30:01):
Christian and someone who listens to Christian music.
If Chris Thomas said that hewas listening to Marilyn Manson,
I'd be concerned.

JJ (01:30:09):
It's the truth.
It was so stupid and we allreacted that way.

Norman (01:30:12):
That's almost not featured on a Magic City record
since then.
I know I don't want to defend.

Naomi (01:30:17):
I don't want to disparage the people that were going.
What's up with that?
Because I think there issomething up with that.

Norman (01:30:22):
I'm just going to say what it is.
What I'm getting at is thisit's like we didn't remove Dante
from the group, like he said hequit.
Godspeed, it's our brother now.
We stopped Dante.
We're in relationship, shall Isay, with Dante, love him, but I

(01:30:43):
don't think that was wise tosay.
But I'll the reason I'mhighlighting.
I'm highlighting because whatis the what is the other
controversy?
Um the bad bunny okay, he wasmissing the bad bunny on now I.

Naomi (01:30:54):
That's not a reason to kick him out the boot.

Norman (01:30:56):
I don't know why I even talked to him first, Because I
mean, the reality is, listeningto secular music is a wisdom
thing.
It's not a sin thing.
I think it's a wisdom thing.
Ain't no demon going to jumpinto you for listening to
so-and-so.
It can predispose you to makingpoor decisions.
What's like having a shot ofalcohol.

Naomi (01:31:21):
I think sin is sin and I think some things are sin for.
I think some things are sin forsome people and not for others.
So, like, whatever you dooutside of faith is sin.
So that's what the Word says.
So I think for some people, ifGod has told them not to listen
to secular music and they do it,then that's sin for them, and I
think they might.
I'm not tracking demons and whatdemons are jumping into who,

(01:31:47):
but because I do minister indeliverance and I understand the
spiritual realm and I dounderstand that things can be
open doors for people, I dobelieve that if they are
engulfed in that, it can openthem up.
I don't think that's necessarilythe entryway of everything, but
I do believe that sin is.
And so if, if you're listeningto music that is propagating an

(01:32:07):
idea and a desire in you, likethere's some music that's just
it's not maybe talking aboutSatan, but it's talking about
only money, money, money, money,money.
I got to get money, and thenyou get this desire and love for
acquiring money and now you'reopen to demonic forces, and I
think that's a real thing, do Ithink it's just play a song and

(01:32:30):
demon Like no, I don't believethat, but I don't want to
discredit the spiritual realm.
I don't want to discredit it,because if we believe that and I
do believe, I believe thatlistening to certain types of
music, like worship music orthings, can spiritually affect
you, then I believe thatlistening to another type of

(01:32:51):
music from another spirit, canaffect you Absolutely.

Norman (01:32:54):
I ain't saying I don't think it can affect you.

Naomi (01:32:56):
Right, I can't tell you, for the demons jumping in.

Norman (01:32:59):
The demons jumping up on you.
Just putting on the track is alie for me.
That's not like sayingsalvation's going to jump up on
you just for this thing.
Hey, you're going to have tomake a decision in real life.

Naomi (01:33:08):
But I don't think everybody makes decisions for
demons to come into them.
So I think sometimes somebodycan sin against you and and they
can impact you.

Norman (01:33:17):
It's like being a molester, yeah.

JJ (01:33:20):
Both of these things are connected to what we talked
about earlier the responsibilityof the moment.
Right, absolutely Like, you'rea part of a global movement,
you're stewarding songs that thechurch is singing.
There's just some things youshouldn't say on a red carpet
and there's some things youprobably shouldn't post on your
public social media, Absolutely.

Naomi (01:33:41):
I mean, sometimes you shouldn't even do it in private.
Sure, sure, yeah, but I thinkit's even more like unwise to do
it like publicly, especially ifit can cause someone to stumble
.
And I think that's theresponsibility of a believer is
to try not to do things that youknow are going to cause people
to stumble.
And so, whereas you know, thereare many people that don't mind
drinking.

(01:34:01):
I remember my pastor when I wasgrowing up.
He used to say he enjoysdrinking wine with his wife at
home.
He wouldn't do it in public, hewould not go out to a
restaurant and drink wine in arestaurant, because he was a
well-known pastor in our areaand he understood that for some
people that was going to ruinthe faith for them and it was
more important for him not tocause this little one to stumble

(01:34:23):
.
And Jesus says if there'sanybody that makes a little one
stumble, they deserve amillstone tied around their neck
and to drown in the sea.
So it's important how we engagewith people that are not as
mature in their beliefs.
But I think a part of maturity,and I think maturing in the
faith, is that you should bebeing discipled with someone
that can actually walk youthrough that and say, hey, well,

(01:34:43):
this is a grave matter, right?
This is an area where youactually have to walk, that that
may not be sin for that person,but everybody doesn't have
someone that's walking with them, and so I think this is where
we are.
It's a tricky space, I think, as, like music artists, period in
the Christian space it's trickybecause you're not just an
artist, you are a leader, youare an influencer.

(01:35:03):
It matters what you say.
What you say is important andthis is why who was the people
on, like Good Morning America?
I think they were like theyfell in love with each other or
whatever that couple or whateverand they were let go right Like
it's and that's a secularplatform.
The guy that I think he was.
They quit, really, oh, theyquit.
But there was another person atthe morning show.
I think it's based on Matt LowryLowry, I don't know.

(01:35:26):
Yeah, matt Lowry, like he wason a secular platform.
They hold people accountablefor the things that they do
because they have influence, andI feel like sometimes,
sometimes Christian influencersand people in this space don't
want to be held accountable.
But if you are working in theworld, you will be held
accountable.
A ceo of a company can't justbe willy-nilly.

(01:35:47):
You sign a morality clause.
There's stuff that you, even inthe world, so even more so when
it comes in the church youunderstand what I'm saying.
So, like I'm, it bothers me.
While I do believe and this isme as a pastor I believe
everybody's going through stuff,everybody and I want to walk
with people and I want to havegrace and I want to do that.
I don't love getting on apodcast and talking bad about

(01:36:10):
people and basically spreadinggossip which I think is a sin
about other people's lives.
I think that's wrong.
Even as a Christian influencer,I think that's wrong.
I don't get that.
But also I understand whypeople will question and go hey,
what is this?
It matters what you do.

Norman (01:36:26):
So when you see all these people on YouTube talking
about man, we're sitting down,lost their way, they worshiping
the devil and woo-da-woo-da-woo,what do you?
That's what they say Worshipthe devil, bro?
Like yeah, I'm not either.
Never have, never will,absolutely not.
I believe in Jesus Christ, justfully and fully surrendered Of

(01:36:49):
Nazareth, God.
What, god, jesus, daddy,Straight like that, straight
like that, you know what I mean.
Like, come on.
But I think that the reason whythese things and it's what
you're talking about is aseriousness that is not funny is
because, like, people aretaking this stuff to heart they
are you know, like people reallyare, I believe, like they

(01:37:12):
really believe that maverickcity, who did not perform will
smith at the pt awards,chelamore did made a personal
decision, not maverick city onpurpose.
And sunday service, by the way,k personal decision, not
Maverick City on purpose.
And Sunday Service, by the way,kanye's choir not Maverick City
choir either.
And Kirk Franklin, who is notaffiliated with Maverick City,
although he does haveaffiliation with me in some
business arenas, but notMaverick City, like those type

(01:37:39):
of moments, so like a Will Smiththing.
Like you know, like what Istruggle with is this it's not
even the approach, it's the lackof, because, as they judge the
tree by the fruit it bears, whenyou judge, when you look at
Maverick City and the fruit thathas come from Maverick City, or

(01:38:00):
the fruit that it bearsconsistently, what are our
actions, what are the thingsthat we do?
You know, like I often say,like if I'm responding to a
comment, I say please send mesome content of Maverick City's
that's demonic, please send methe piece of content that is
demonic or that leads, or thatsomeone will listen to, that

(01:38:24):
will lead them away from God.
Like that's what I want to seeLike now.
Can you point to some of theactions in someone's life that
may well perform in Lavin Citythat have been questioned by all
means?
You can do that with any ofthem.
You can do that with you, theone right in the company.
You can do that with any of you.
You can do that with you, theone right in the company.
You can do that with anybody.

(01:38:44):
But as a collective we decideto step.
Put our name on something.
Does it have every intention toalign with God?
Align with the word God?
I'm not going to say every songwe ever wrote was the last
click of faith.
I'm not going to say every songwe ever wrote was the Elijah
Clicker rap.
I'm not astute enough to say so.

Naomi (01:39:03):
I think most of them are very good.
I think each of the well, therights I'm a part of.
If I'm right from the bottom, Icould.
You can only speak for yourself.
You know what I mean, and Ithink that's what happens when
you're a part of a collective,like it's not a group, and so I
think a group goes about, thisis what we're doing, and then
one person may go off and dowhatever, because that's what
happens in groups as well.
But in a collective you'redealing with different artists

(01:39:25):
and people have differentthoughts.
But from my perspective, any ofthe worship songs I can't speak
for other stuff that happensthat y'all didn't do with this.
Mavericks in the music, but Ican't speak to the other stuff
because I wasn't there.
What was this?

JJ (01:39:38):
I just a lot of other stuff.

Naomi (01:39:40):
American City.
Music has become a lot ofthings.
There's a lot of things.

JJ (01:39:46):
There's a lot of things.
I don't know what it is, butit's a lot of stuff.

Naomi (01:39:50):
Yeah, we reimagined a whole bunch of stuff and we did
a lot of other stuff.
And we love to be in houses andwith the math house and we like
we doing a lot of differentstuff, yeah, and with the Mav
House and we like we doing a lotof different stuff.
You was at Mav.

Norman (01:40:02):
House.

Naomi (01:40:03):
Yeah, but I didn't, and I you was at Mav House yeah, but
I can only speak to the songthat I wrote, right?
I can't.
I wasn't in those writing roomswith other people and that's
the.
Let me remind you.
I don't know.
I know what I'm saying, hold on.
But no, I'm not Again.
All I'm saying is that I'veonly speak to the songs that I
wrote, and that's a part ofbeing a collective and I'm not

(01:40:25):
taking away from what we've done.
I do believe that most of whatwe've written has been
theologically correct and we tryto gauge that stuff and go well
, this is like sus, like no, andthere have been songs, I think,
that have come through fromother writers, because it other

(01:40:45):
writers because it's not onlythe people that you see on
stages that write.

Norman (01:40:46):
There's like a bunch of writers, and if something is a
little sus, it's kind of like,and we're not gonna like sing
that.

Naomi (01:40:48):
Let me example something that's a little sus.
I'm not doing that and honestlyI can't even remember, but I
think there were like certainthings that can like.
Even in writing rooms therewould be like lines, I don't
know, that might have not saidcertain things, or people maybe
fighting because they didn'tfully believe in, like the
trinity.
And I'm not talking aboutpeople that have been on
platform, I'm talking about like, just like other writers,

(01:41:09):
songwriters, and it's kind ofbeen like okay, well, we're not
gonna like not say that or we'renot gonna like pull out the
holy spirit because you don'tlike it.
So, like there's been, there'sbeen moments where we've had to
fight for what we believe islike theologically correct and
biblical, and in writing, suchand you know this because like
we would end up talking or notarguing, but like debating some

(01:41:30):
stuff, sometimes over what wasright.
So I think we've put a lot ofcare into the songs that we've
written and the content that werelease.
For the most part, and I thinkyou know I stand by the songs
that that we've released.
I know the stylistically thingshave gotten a little different.
That's what I was referring to.
I was just being petty but um,I'll start you.

Norman (01:41:50):
What hello, how do you, how do you feel about that?
I mean, I think, based on mypast petty statement, I think
like I mean, I think, based onmy past petty statement, I think
like you made an R&B album.

Naomi (01:42:04):
Yeah, I made my R&B album and I stand by that as an
artist, I think when you're apart of a collective and I told
you, I feel like I am a part ofMaverick City, right?

Norman (01:42:15):
Because I'm, you are, maverick City.

Naomi (01:42:17):
Right as a founding member, I think there are when
decisions get made and this isfrom me who are the founding
members?
Myself, Dante, Chandler,outside of JJ Toney and, I would
say, Brandon.

Norman (01:42:33):
We didn't kick Dante out .
That's a lie.

JJ (01:42:35):
No, I know, but we didn't talk about it.

Norman (01:42:39):
How do you feel about it today, now that y'all done,
rolled again together?

Naomi (01:42:45):
Oh, I think.

JJ (01:42:46):
Yeah, here comes the real.
I feel it already, it's coming.

Naomi (01:42:51):
I know it's very difficult for me to not be
honest.
I think when all of this stufffirst happened, I think I was
still trying to hold thingstogether.
Yeah, I think now I'm in aplace where I'm like I don't.
Well, you know, I told youreconciliation like I want

(01:43:12):
everybody to be good, but Idon't know.
I don't know if it could evercome back together and be what
it was.
So I'm not even sure.
I think I would rather justremember it rather than
experience it again.
I wish it had gone different.

(01:43:37):
I wish he didn't leave.
It had gone different.
Um, I'm glad that he seems tohave come back and is like you
know he told us to try but talkno, but not.

JJ (01:43:50):
She means like in a deep way , I mean lately cause like I'm
hearing stuff through you.

Norman (01:43:55):
I mean I talk.
I talk to Dante almost everyday.

Naomi (01:43:57):
I'm so happy for you.
I talked to Dante yesterday.

Norman (01:43:59):
every day I'm so happy for you.

Naomi (01:44:01):
I told Dante yesterday yeah, congrats, I hope I had
that, that honor.

Norman (01:44:05):
I mean, but transparently, I knew Dante
before he was in Maverick City,way before, like years before
Maverick City, came to my church, worked with him and put him on
his first album.
So I think, like how he says it, he doesn't charge, unlike a
lot of people.
He doesn't charge his Mavicexperience to me, I think

(01:44:25):
because he had a relationshipwith me prior maybe, so he just
see it the way he see it.
But also I'm not in the thing Ididn't do nothing to Dante.

Naomi (01:44:37):
I didn't do nothing to anybody.
So, I think for me although me,although, like there was, I
don't think people know thatwhat exists in maverick is like
there's an executive team thatmakes a lot of decisions and
does things, and that's maverickcity music.
And then there are theseartists that come together and
sing and we're in some of theoriginal sounding members that

(01:45:00):
that is Maverick City, and sothe face of what people get
except well, now that y'all arelike more visible, the face was
us, but the decisions and thebrain was the executives, and so
I think to be in this levelwith us and not really speak to
us about being around feels likewhy, like we all have the same

(01:45:25):
numbers, do you?

JJ (01:45:26):
Yeah.

Naomi (01:45:28):
Because it was stuff that and he, I mean he's admitted.
I've seen like some of thethings.
Like he said like hey, I wasjust like doing this, I wanted
to like you know it, just itdidn't matter.
And I'm like well, what you didactually tarnished my image,
like you did something to thegroup and you didn't say
anything to us.
So for me, it's just a thing oflike hey, like just.

Norman (01:45:52):
Accountability yeah.

Naomi (01:45:54):
And to me, and you know what.

Norman (01:45:56):
The good thing, though you're saying this, he said the
same thing, and on the podcasthe said that he should have just
talked to y'all at the time.
He said a lot of what he feltwas internal and that had y'all
just worked it out amongst y'all.
Because basically he's sayingit don't matter what JJ and
Trolley said, if Aaron want tolead this song and we decide

(01:46:19):
Aaron's going to lead it, who'sgoing to come take him off the
microphone?
You know what I'm saying Like,and what you're speaking to is
that relationship.
I think the beauty.
This is why I believe Body andFolk will happen.
It's because there was a Dantefaction and then you had some
individuals.
That's what it was.
There was a Dante faction andthen some individuals.

(01:46:40):
You had a little small factiontoo, but the Dante faction was
Aaron Joel.
Dante you had a little factionwho, what faction?
Tiana, uh uh, what's Phil Bones?
They had a big faction thatthat was a Dante faction.
There was you and MJ, and thenbasically Cheryl and Brandon,

(01:47:02):
they separate.
They, that was a Dante faction.
There was you and MJ, and thenbasically Cheryl and Brandon,
they separate.

Naomi (01:47:05):
They're like Look, I want you to know I'm cool with
everybody, and then I don't havea faction.

Norman (01:47:12):
It's about allegiance.
When we had to put something upand vote, I could have told you
who was voting together and whowasn't voting together.
Yeah, it's like.

Naomi (01:47:18):
I did that.

Norman (01:47:22):
I did that, but I don't think anybody would be voting
against me, unless it was forthem.
I think if Dante was againstyou, dante faction would go fail
, you know what I'm saying?

Naomi (01:47:32):
What I'm saying is that me and Dante were never against
each other.
Okay, for me, I think and I was, I think it was important to me
to maintain relationship withevery single person, even if
something didn't work out foryou in this, like I want you to

(01:47:52):
know my heart for you, like Ilove you and vice versa, like we
all have like relationship, andso my main thing is like hey,
if you know what the things thatyou did affected us, even
though I didn't come for you andeven though I never talked
about you, and even though I mayhave never been, like what you

(01:48:13):
did hurt me, for you not to sayanything is to me that's weird.

Norman (01:48:19):
What is your relationship with Brandon?

Naomi (01:48:21):
Me and Nicole.

Norman (01:48:22):
That's all.

Naomi (01:48:24):
Yeah, we text from time to time Interesting.

JJ (01:48:27):
Is that okay, of course?

Naomi (01:48:28):
it's okay I don't care.

Norman (01:48:30):
Yeah, no, I'm saying, like I'm saying, that was a
thing that Dante mentioned, thatWas that out of everybody?
Since everything happened, theonly person he hasn't talked to
is Brandon.

Naomi (01:48:40):
Well, I get that.
I think he and Brandon startedoff as much closer in the
beginning, and then there werethings that happened.

JJ (01:48:48):
Well, he really said was that he felt betrayed by Brandon
that Brandon was his brother.

Naomi (01:48:54):
I understand that, but I think Brandon might have felt
dishonored by Dante.
What?
That's my mother's name, I'mnot saying you feel.

Norman (01:49:05):
I want to know why you feel that way.

Naomi (01:49:07):
I think when you're a part of something and you're
building something, we all feltlike we were founding members of
this and when somebody doessomething to attack, it, attack
what you're building.
That's dishonorable.
And I love Dante, but I thinkthere were things that he did
that directly attacked what wewere building and it was almost

(01:49:33):
like it don't matter.
And I think to act like thatand me and Dante have had.
We talked in the beginning likehey've talked.
We talked in the beginning Likehey, like you gotta you gotta
own your own stuff, like yougotta take responsibility for
your stuff.
And the last conversation, thelast real conversation we had,
was a good one, like even thoughit was hard, but it was good.
So I'm not, I don't have beefwith Dante, I'm just saying

(01:49:57):
something that we were all, thatwe all loved, that we all built
together.
It's like building a sandcastlewe're building together and
then you just you get mad oneday and you kick it, like so.

Norman (01:50:11):
I get why Brandon might be upset.
I don't, I don't.
I'll be honest, I don't give inwhere he's at Like what would
it matter to him?

Naomi (01:50:25):
This is when everything was happening.
I don't know about now.
I don't know what Brandon'sfeeling now.
I don't talk about this stuff.
I let bygones be bygones.
Y'all made me come and be amaverick on the mic Like.
I'm not.
We're not talking about thisstuff.
We don't sit around and talkabout this, so I'm not.
I don't know what Brandon feelstoday.
I know how he could have feltback then.

Norman (01:50:46):
Got it.

Naomi (01:50:46):
And I think, when you're working on something that you're
proud of and that you want tosucceed and it seems like
somebody's not like caring aboutit or putting in the same
effort, or even in communication, like we thought you were

(01:51:08):
coming.

JJ (01:51:08):
You didn't come like it's just stuff like that.
I've to be honest, I've I felta little bit of that with
brandon, though me personally, Idon't know, I just I always
felt like they were, I felt likeit was again.
And this is like, if I callnaomi and say, hey, I want
there's this recording happening, it's like okay, when is it
happening?
What time?
What do you need me to do?
I want there's this recordinghappening.
It's like okay, when is ithappening?
What time?
What do you need me to do?
Whatever?
Like there's a conversationthat's happened.
I always felt like with Brandonit was like I had to.

(01:51:29):
There was like fiveconversations that needed to
happen for him to say yes, wheneverybody else was like you know
, at one conversation you knowwhat I mean it just it felt like
it was, uh, there was alwaysthis kind of like hey, that's
cool, I don't know if I can beFirst tour, it's a moment, right
, everyone's there, all thefounding members are there.
The whole tour Rehearsals.
He's there Rehearsals.

(01:51:50):
That was a thing.
First tour rehearsals.
That's Tony man.
Yeah, for sure.

Naomi (01:51:56):
But I think Brandon was treated a little differently
than everybody else, and maybeit's because of the way he was
engaging.

JJ (01:52:05):
I think he for sure was.

Naomi (01:52:07):
Brandon.
Remember I told you there waslike we were writing and then
there was this group of peoplethat were like doing that.
Brandon was in that group ofpeople as well.
Tony, I feel like, kept Brandonlike super close and there was
also Brandon was.
Brandon was a little differentthan everybody.
He was at Church of Seacoast,he was doing the Bethlehem stuff
.
He was doing the Elevationstuff, like he was after y'all

(01:52:28):
wrote this Is A Move and therewas another song, I think.
Um, he and Dante both seemed tohave some opportunities a
little earlier.
So I think he probably feltlike he should, or I don't know.
I don't know what he thought,but it seemed like he was

(01:52:48):
treated a little differently.

JJ (01:52:50):
He for sure was.

Naomi (01:52:51):
And so I get it.
It seemed like he was maybemore demanding of things in the
beginning, and I also think it'snot easy to be the only white
person in an all black situation.
I think that that wasuncomfortable for him and he
said that from time to time andI think I don't know.

(01:53:11):
I feel like he tried his bestand we all tried to make it work
because we get it.
It's different cultures and Ithink Brandon loves us and we
love him.
I just think it was difficultto be the only white person,
Absolutely Especially when a lotof what we did leaned toward
our culture.
So it's like you're literallybeing called outside of what's

(01:53:33):
probably norm for you and yourmoment becomes maybe the one or
the you know like, so differentfrom some of the other moments.

Norman (01:53:41):
What was your maverick moment?

Naomi (01:53:45):
My Maverick.
What do we mean?
How are we defining a Maverickmoment?

Norman (01:53:49):
You know what a Maverick is?
You out to your Maverick city.
Like Maverick is like beingindependent, independent
thinking, unorthodox, breakingaway from the herd.
The moment that I consider tobe a legacy, defining moment in
life in general, what momentdefines the Naomi Reign Solomon?

Naomi (01:54:19):
I think, hmm, I think Hmm .

Norman (01:54:25):
Hmm, I don't know.

Naomi (01:54:26):
This is going to be a center that I think a little bit
.
I don't know that.
I have a moment.

Norman (01:54:31):
Okay.

Naomi (01:54:32):
I think, for me, I'm very like internal first, and maybe
it was when I decided to live alife that I believed is
authentic and love people that Ilove and spend time with the

(01:54:53):
people that I love and go afterwhat I believe God is calling me
to do, like just, I think therewas a point I'm saying that
because I feel like it was moreof a internal moment where I was
like, hey, I'm just gonna livemy life to the fullest for god's
glory, and I think that thatkind of played out, um, maybe

(01:55:15):
somewhere around old churchbasement and um, between old
church basement and kingdom tour.
Um, that season was like verypivotal for me, um, and I think
a part of it was because of allof the, the, the success of
maverick and the moving up, andI realized, oh snap, the stuff

(01:55:36):
that the holy spirit showed mewhen I was younger is actually
happening.
I think there's like I I alwaysbelieved in God, always like,
but there's something when apromise that God makes to you
actually comes true and youstart to go, oh snap, okay,
maybe I am called to somethinggreater, maybe I have to
actually like for real, commit,fully commit.

(01:55:56):
I can get into my feelings.
I can do this out of this or Ican start to tap into the wisdom
that the Lord has given me andtry to steward well what he's
given me.
In that season I made a lot ofdecisions and I kind of decided
to live just 100% for the Lord.
And when I say that I mean likefor his glory.

(01:56:19):
So I don't think it was onemoment I do think there was that
it mean like for his glory.
So I don't think it was onemoment.
I do think there was that.
It was that season and itwasn't so much about success,
but it was about recognizingthat, oh, the Lord actually
answered or did what he said,because I didn't pray for any of
this.
He actually did what he saidand I realized, oh, maybe it's
for a greater purpose.

Norman (01:56:43):
Hey guys, this has been a 12-hour conversation.
This has been amazing.
We talked to the queen NaomiReign.
We hit in every everything andjust what the journey has been
for Naomi Reign so far.
Thank you Next time.
Peace, thank you.

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