Travis Greene: Remember When God Showed Up?

Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
If there's a book to be written on my life, that's
the.

Speaker 2 (00:03):
You could call the book 2014, because it's the most
significant year you know interms of just major things
happening, Did you say, okay,God, I'm saying yes, but like
how am I supposed to be anartist now and do this?

Speaker 1 (00:15):
The interesting part to the story that a lot of
people don't know, unless you'reclose to me, is 2015,.
You know it takes off and I getoffered a job at almost every
mega church in the country 2013,.

Speaker 3 (00:26):
he says yes to the ministry 2014,.
He and his wife have adifficult pregnancy that burst
the trademark song Made Away.

Speaker 1 (00:37):
I never forget that she said your mama got some
stories.
She prayed you back to life,your mom.

Speaker 2 (00:42):
That's right.

Speaker 4 (00:43):
Man, it's a quiet down moment.
I hear this guy say Clay, it'sNorman.
What's up?

(01:16):
Everybody?
Welcome to another episode ofMavericks.
On the Mic, I'm JJ.

Speaker 2 (01:19):
I'm EJ.
I'm Norman.

Speaker 1 (01:21):
And.

Speaker 4 (01:21):
I'm.

Speaker 1 (01:21):
Travis no.

Speaker 2 (01:22):
I know, I just wanted to do that.

Speaker 1 (01:24):
I just wanted to do that.
I just wanted to do that.
I can't just jump in there likethat he said no, there's a way
cut you off, so no man happy tohave you.

Speaker 4 (01:37):
You are gospel music icon, the brother in law of
Norman Jumphy we don't saybrother in law, that's some
white people stuff.

Speaker 1 (01:46):
Yeah, that's a whole lot of stuff right there.
They're my brother man.

Speaker 3 (01:49):
Yeah, you had a whole lot of superlatives Okay.

Speaker 4 (01:54):
Is that like a thing?
Is that like y'all agreed onthat Y'all don't call each other
brother in law?

Speaker 3 (01:59):
That's just more of a white thing.

Speaker 1 (02:00):
Y'all look more formal a white thing Y'all look
more formal.
I don't call my stepdad.

Speaker 3 (02:03):
I'm sure if you had a stepdad you'd call him stepdad.

Speaker 2 (02:06):
You call him what His name?
I call him my bonus dad.

Speaker 3 (02:11):
What is that Bonus, dad?
That's even a lie.
Man, my sister grew up withproper decorum.
If you have another dad, he'sjust dad.
Your other dad, he dad too.
You ain't no disambiguity, youknow what I'm saying?
Your other dad, he died too.
You ain't no disambiguity.
Dad, brother, won't do all thatstuff.
Have crisscross applesauce,it's just what it is, bro, you

(02:35):
know.
Won't do no dilutions, I loveit.
I love it.

Speaker 2 (02:43):
Yeah, I mean so.
I mean Travis, people knew youknow you from music, but then I
think there was a very timelyshift into pastoral leadership
and a lot of times I feel likeartists kind of make that shift
and then they fall in love withthat or it consumes them in a
way that they can't do the otherstuff anymore.
But I feel like you've alwaysbeen able to do both very well
and it's really more like anexpansion of who you are.

(03:05):
Is that intentional?
Was that like the plan, or isthis just like this how it was
gonna go?
Nah, none of it was intentional, really matter of fact.

Speaker 1 (03:14):
Um, it's funny how god does things for me.
He had me say yes to pastoringa year before.
Uh, I even, you know, recorded,made a way and stuff um so 2013
is when, ironically enough, inatlanta airport, I just feel
like this burden to start achurch never wanted to do.

(03:37):
It gave a list of reasons whyit was a bad idea for me to be
that candidate.
God graciously countered all ofmy excuses and warnings to him
that this was a bad idea andtold me that I would be able to
do it.
The way that he placed in myheart something new, and
especially in our region, it'skind of unheard of the style

(03:59):
that we present the gospel, theway that we dress the whole nine
.
So that vision came in 2013.
Then in 2014, my wife getspregnant and we have that
miracle my first son and I write, made a way record made away on
norman's birthday, november 8,2014, and then, uh, it's off to
the races.
So I think it's.
I think the lesson there is isgiving god a yes before he gives

(04:23):
you a yes right I thinksometimes, um, because this
prayer for music is a lifelongprayer, this time, 30 year
prayer, and I I kept getting notyet, not yet, not yet.
And it wasn't until I gave goda 2013 yes for the local church
that he gave me the 2014 yes forglobal music.

Speaker 2 (04:43):
So wow, yeah, that.
So the encouragement, then, isfull obedience, right, not like
obedience for the thing that youwant to do, but like actually
like yes to everything you sayyeah, because there's protection
in that.

Speaker 1 (04:56):
Had I not done that, like have I not made an
agreement with god in 2013?
Yeah, there's no way I'd be insouth carolina, you know, but
did you?

Speaker 2 (05:04):
ask the how?
Like did you say, okay, god,I'm saying yes, but like, how am
I supposed to be an artist nowand do this like?
Did you ask for the blueprint,or was it more like going?

Speaker 1 (05:14):
I'll show you yeah, it was definitely going.
I'll show you because I that'swhat I'm saying I had already
been sitting on it.
Yes, yeah, so it's 2013.
It's not till.
You know, I think like be uh,probably like mid-2014, that I
signed with rca at the time andthen we're, then we do the live
recording, um, the end of 2014and then 2015 is just fire.

(05:35):
You know it took off, um, but Imy mind was already made up.
So an interesting part to thestory that a lot of people don't
know, unless you're close to me, is 2015.
You know it takes off and I getoffered a job at almost every
mega church in the country.

Speaker 2 (05:50):
To be like worship pastor.

Speaker 1 (05:51):
Yeah, I'm talking about the top the church.
Yeah, the best of the best.
And I told them all God told meto start a church.
I'm moving to South Carolina.
What was their response?
Everybody's like you're crazy.
Like.
What was your response?
Everybody's like you're crazy.
Like what, bro, do you know?
Do you know who this is?
Is that you know?
Not in like a private way, butalmost like you?
know you are gonna turn thatdown no, like even my mentors is

(06:12):
like yo man, like you know, youcould always do the church
thing you can do that whenyou're 50.
I got calm, you know the bestof the best.

Speaker 3 (06:24):
So talk about now, because now I'm like, not that
I'm intending to I think you'rerushing through some things
because it's a few points in thejourney that if you skip by,
you don't get the fullness ofthe story.
So, like 2013, he says yes tothe ministry 2014,.
He and his wife have adifficult pregnancy to the

(06:47):
ministry 2014.
He and his wife have adifficult pregnancy that births
the trademark song that we allknow him by not intentional, but
made away.
But you know, without you gotto understand the journey of
faith, you know, and how it allties in, how it all brings us to
today.
So talk about the journey ofjace and having jace what that
was like, um, how that storyfits into the beginning of the

(07:08):
journey yeah, 2014 is probably,you know, if there's, if there's
a book to be written on my life, that's the.

Speaker 1 (07:17):
You could call the book 2014, because it's the most
significant year, you know, interms of just major things
happening.
Um, I turned 30, um, in 2014,the beginning of 2014, uh, which
already allowed me, you know,it just dealt with some, I think
, unspoken anxiety in me.
At that point, I would haveoutlived my dad by two years who

(07:38):
died when he was 28.
So and that was always like onmy neck like you got to get
whatever you're going to do, yougot to get it done because 28
is coming.
So I'm 30 and I could breathe alittle bit.
I'm like all right.
So my wife throws me a birthdayparty in Charlotte.
And two, three things happen atthis birthday party.

(07:58):
That's just at my 30th birthdayparty.
One we announced that she'spregnant.
At my 30th birthday party one,we announced that she's pregnant
.
Um.
Two, we announced that we'removing to columbia from
charlotte, you know, next yearto start a church.
And then three, norman comes upfor remarks and says hey, man,
this is, this is bc, right, thisis yeah, yeah, yeah, we don't

(08:23):
know where he was the nightbefore, norman, right.
And he comes on stage and getsa microphone and says I mean,
you could tell it was kind of anout-of-body thing Because he
was just like yeah.
So when y'all start the church,me and Blair are going to be
there.

Speaker 3 (08:40):
Pause.
Why?
Oh, I don't know.

Speaker 1 (08:45):
And it wasn't like a we're going to be there at the
first service.
Yeah, yeah, Like we're helpingto plant this thing, we're going
to be there, be there.

Speaker 3 (08:51):
Why.
It was a God moment.
You know what I mean.
Like you know, you get into themoment I was praying.
We was all supposed to go upand pray.
I don't think it was a month.
Know it wasn't a.
I mean I can tell you I didn't.
It wasn't me because I had nointent to follow through with it
.
You know what I'm saying.
It's like this is a good thingto say right now, you know what

(09:12):
I'm saying.
Like I'm not a church boy, soit's like you know.

Speaker 1 (09:17):
Ain't nobody holding that to At that point in time.

Speaker 3 (09:21):
I don't have any of that in me.
You go to church Me and Naomitalked about it.
You go to church and blackpeople know how to do church,
act church, say the right thing.
I'm just saying what I feel.
That's kind of how, that's whatI felt, that's what the action
in me was.
So ain't no, why.

Speaker 2 (09:37):
So you didn't feel like it cost you anything in
that moment.

Speaker 3 (09:39):
Oh, no, it didn't cost me nothing because, like
I'm saying, I'm not a church kid.
So you know, like a church kid,no, you know the pastor going
to come follow up.
I don't know what no courtgroup is.
I don't know.
I never heard of this stuff.

Speaker 2 (09:51):
I just said I'm going to have to go back, Like that's
all I'm saying, Like I'm goinghome after this, but what ended
up happening then?

Speaker 1 (09:59):
Yeah, man, I don't even know how long we're driving
from atlanta to columbia weekly, um, and he wasn't doing music
stuff yet right nah, this is prethis is pre that.
Yeah, this is pre that.
Um so, then, um.
So then 2014.
So we announced we're pregnant.
Uh, she go in a few monthslater to get just the gender.

(10:22):
We're just trying to get thegender in an envelope.
We're going to do a genderreveal.
You know that's hot at thistime.
It just people just starteddoing these gender reveals.
You know, back then it's like,oh, we're gonna, we're gonna get
in on this.
You know, we're gonna do agender reveal.
And when we're there, like thesonographer was like yo, this is
, this is bad.
And.
And so my wife walked in perfecthealth school.
You know, she's in dentalschool, um, last year and, uh,

(10:45):
her final year of dental school.
And so they're like, yeah,you're uh, yeah, you're getting
admitted and um.
So, long story short, um, godjust performed a miracle.
She laid on bed rest for forseven weeks and god, uh,
resealed her womb.
After it, literally, her waterbroke at 21 weeks, literally, um
and so, and our prayer was godreseal her womb.

(11:07):
And just miraculously, he did.
The um high-risk specialistsaid in 20 years she's never
seen it before and um, but itwas doing this.
And then so she's in a bed fortwo months.
She have jace at 28 weeks.
He's in the NICU for two months.
So we spent a third of thatyear of 2014.
That's why I say that year justmarked me.
I learned God in a new way.

(11:28):
Every single day in thehospital the only thing I
listened to was KCJ's version ofFill Me Up, every single day.
I know every little part ofthat song because it was the
only thing that I consumed.
But then one day, while we'rein the hospital, you know, I
went because their, their mom,lived in augusta and that's
where um jackie was in dentalschool.

(11:49):
And so one day I was like I'mjust gonna go to the house real
quick, freshen up.
And while I was there I justliterally in the shower, I just
started hearing this song.
I got out, got my acoustic,just started playing it.
I called her on facetime andsung it to her, made a way, and
that's the story about it, youknow so that's landmark like
this yeah, yeah, it was, it was,it was a significant moment.

(12:11):
Oh, it was a.
It's where I think she and I umprobably the most we we both
have, um, you know, ourspiritual journeys, but I think
that in our adulthood wassomething, and together that was
like a marker for our faith.

Speaker 3 (12:28):

Speaker 1 (12:29):
Like where we built stones.
It's like, oh no, no, no, no,no, we know God.
We know God he didn't get allin this.
Talk about theories or whateverelse you know.

Speaker 2 (12:38):
This is what I know.
No, I know.

Speaker 1 (12:40):
I know power.
That wasn't the doctor.
It's responsible for us having a10-year-old walking around and
so it marked us and not knowingwhat the record would do as a
matter of fact, the label didn'teither they signed me off of
Intentional.
They didn't know and I toldthem.
It's funny, I told them at thetime Joseph Burney and Uncle

(13:02):
Jeff rest his soul, and all ofthem, uh, I told him at the
meeting.
I was like yo, like I, um, likeI do this, like I, this ain't,
this is not my best work, it's agood song but like no, I I
write, I produce, like I do this.
It's like okay, okay, okay, andI said I'm gonna do a recording.
So, um, they came down tocharlotte and literally norman

(13:22):
had on suit.
He didn't know how to dress atrecorders.
He wore a blue suit with brownshoes Like a full suit.
He's the only person in thewhole venue with a suit on.
He looked like Mafia A wholeblue suit, navy blue suit on and
he was there and the player wasthere.
It was so funny because I know Iremember that, norman, that's

(13:50):
how you showed up.
I have a story, I have a storyfor that.
But keep going, keep going.
No, but that's how you showedup.
It's so funny.
It was moments like that andother moments even before he was
like in the music, where hejust had this thing, you know,
like we're cool.
I wouldn't say we were likesuper, super close, but it was
cool.
Um, he respected me because Icame and saw him.
You know, in college thatprobably one of his lowest
seasons, I went up, I came andsaw him.
You know, in college that wasprobably one of his lowest
seasons.
I went up to DC and saw him.
So he had, like this, justrespect for me.
So we were cool.
But I remember and there's apicture of it that night and I'm

(14:12):
like super nervous and I'msitting down in the back and I
got like my head down.
I think I might have had likeone of the inhaler things up to
me.
Like it was just like bro, it'stime, let's go.
Like he don't know nobody there.
Nobody there know him.
He's jackie's brother.
That just happened to be at arecording with a neighbor blue
suit on and he managing me at myfirst ever recording so you

(14:34):
know, it's just it's funny howgod does it?

Speaker 4 (14:36):
yeah, that's crazy.
Yeah, that's crazy.
Yeah, it's funny because when Imet you, I also met norman at
the same time.
This this would have been 2016at Big Church Day Out in England
.

Speaker 1 (14:46):
Yeah, I remember.

Speaker 4 (14:48):
I don't know if you remember this, I don't know if
you, but we were in, y'all were.
You were leading worship and Iwas just standing in the back of
the room and I hear this guy,like it's a quiet down moment.
I hear this guy say play, play.
What is happening?
So I walk around on the sideit's Norman, so I'm thinking,

(15:08):
okay, that's their process, likehe's the MD.
Later that night he's tellingsomebody I don't know.
I don't even know what middle Cis, I couldn't tell you what an
A is.
So I'm like what is this guydoing?
But you know it's funny becausehe joked about.
He's like I just knew what mybrother wanted and I was telling

(15:29):
him to play but, anyways, it'sjust when you said something
about the blue suit and thebrown shoes I was like, oh my
god, it's so normal.

Speaker 2 (15:37):
Yeah, for sure so the two of you you and your
incredible wife, dr jackie greennow are starting to be really
equipped.
At that point, right, I mean,god was giving you all some of
the stuff that you would need.

Speaker 1 (15:50):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (15:51):
Did you know?
I mean, you couldn't have knownhow badly you would need some
of those moments of connectivity, right Because you all are in
ministry together.

Speaker 4 (15:59):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (16:00):
Like, do you look back at that season of 2014 now
and see like, oh, that's wherewe were tethered for this
ministry, because it feels likeGod almost like completed or
perfected a part of your faithjourney for the next season?

Speaker 1 (16:14):
Yeah, it was.
It was a big part, I think,more than tethering, probably
just like maturing Right.
We were really close from likeday one.
So 20, uh, or the 2007 when wemet, it was just magical like
the day one.
So we always had like a specialthing, um, and even you know,

(16:36):
we had a long distancerelationship.
So that created really ourwhole relationship was built off
of communication and not reallyphysical stuff.
So it was a very pure organic,intellectual relationship, like
really getting to know eachother in a deep space, like just

(16:56):
staying up on the phone for 10hours what secret have you not
told anybody?
You know that type of stuff.
So just learning, learning,learning each other.
So we had all of that historyand, at know, at this point in
2014, we would have been marriedum over three years.
So, um, well, I think close tothree years into our third year.
So you know, we had history, wehad context, um, but I think it

(17:21):
just matured us.
I think, and I think nothingmatures you more than suffering.
Right, when you're desperateman, you grow up.
You grow up from like SantaClaus faith.
You grow up from God.
You know I'm only serving youso that and you shift and you

(17:44):
walk with god to start valuingand being appreciative of little
things.
One thing that we did was wehad uh, because it said, man,
the way our technology is, ifyou can get I think it was like
27 you can get like 27 we feelreally good about his chance of
survival right um 27 weeks.
And so we had these.
Um, they're literally likerubber bands, um, you remember

(18:07):
those and we had differentcolors though, and I think we
had well, I think we had maybeseven of them.
So we, we had whatever, I thinkwe had seven of them, and so
her and the uh, all the nurses,it became a thing like norman
blair, like like friends.
And you know friends, you knowdifferent people would send
pictures like praying for Jace,around you know the country,

(18:30):
Different artists, justdifferent people, People you
know, and our family were justsupporting and so and I bring
that up, because every week wewould remove a rubber band and
man, when you like, it's onething to like be grateful for
the full manifestation of apromise but to me that's lazy

(18:51):
praise.
Right, the red sea is split,it's closed, the army's driving.
We made it.
Anyone can praise god there.
I think, man, if you couldpraise him for keeping the water
up while you're walking through, and for us, the removal of the
rubber bands was like man,another week you kept us and
we're grateful.
Wow, man, you didn't have tokeep us.
That's so good.

Speaker 2 (19:11):
Another week man.

Speaker 1 (19:12):
And I think it just matured us to not skip.
It's funny when you say, man,we're skipping so much of the
story.
Yeah, but I think we got, youknow, whatever I wanted.
But, man, another day you keptme.
You know it's funny.
I'm reading a book.

(19:32):
I'm reading a book that I'veread several times.
It's called the Jesus I NeverKnew and he's talking about the
author is the older white guy,but he's talking about the
difference between the praiseand the desperation desperation
even in church and even insongwriting of blacks and whites
.
And he says it stems fromhistory, that slave songwriters

(19:54):
were singing songs like swinglow, sweet chariot.
And you know it sounds.
It sounds like a funny, itsounds like a slave song you
know I mean, but coming forth tocarry me home there.
Their hope was in a future homeperiod.
There was no hope for thepresent.
That's right.
I have some, you know.
I've watched my dad get shot inthis cotton field, my mom get
raped every day and I've beenbeat to a bloody pulp.

(20:17):
I don't have any hope for beingsuccessful on this side of
eternity.
My only hope is in eternity.
Eternity, my only hope is ineternity.
And so the, the songs and thedesperation of the, the black
culture, when it comes to god,it ain't casual, you know.
That's why somebody can be manslinging dope, gang banging fam.

Speaker 4 (20:35):
They in trouble, they like man lord jesus, I think, I
heard, I think I heard mygrandma say this before hey dog,
hey dog, jesus, dog, jesus.

Speaker 1 (20:44):
Like so it's embedded in usbecause there is a level of
desperation and I think successas we know it has watered down
that desperation.
For God, it's nothing likeknowing you need them when you
can afford everything you want,when your health is perfect,
when your life is what youimagine, then you know, I think
I'm perfect.
When your life is what youimagine, then you know and I

(21:07):
think I'm a priest this Sunday,about the Beatitudes, which is
Matthew 5, it's Jesus' mostfamous sermon, but he's going
through blessed are blessed, are, blessed are blessed are.
And but the people who he'ssaying are blessed.
It's like he's flipping thescript.
He's not saying blessed are thehappy.

Speaker 2 (21:21):
He's saying blessed are those that mourn.

Speaker 4 (21:23):
He's not saying blessed are the happy.

Speaker 1 (21:23):
He said blessed are those that mourn, that's right.
He's not saying blessed arethose who fight wars.
He says blessed are thepeacemakers, blessed are the
poor in spirit.
And luke just said it straightup.
He's like no, I already sayblessed are the poor.
And it's like god has a specialplace in his heart for those
who are desperate for him,because there's a level of a
prayer, of, of zeal, of passion,that passion that gets watered.

(21:45):
And that's why he says, likeJesus literally said, man, it's
easier for a camel to make itthrough a needle than it is for
a rich person to get into thekingdom.
And what he's talking about isnot that he's against stuff, but
he knows how quickly we replacehim for stuff.
Sorry, I don't know why I tookthat story.

Speaker 3 (22:02):
No, I love it.
No, that's good.
I told you all my pass wascoming on today.
I think that what he's talkingabout especially when he's
talking about taking the bandsoff and the thing he didn't hit
was that when he wrote the songMade Away, the way hadn't been
made.
He didn't write Make Away, heWill Make Away.
He definitively stated MadeAway.

(22:22):
And it's a definingcharacteristic and kind of the
way that they move and the waythat they walk.
It's with a uh, unparalleled orunexplainable certainty that
god is gonna do it.
And that's the uniqueness, Iwould say, of jackie and travis

(22:42):
is that, like they have thisknowing, you know, like Michael
Jordan had that, knowing when hewas on the court I'm going to
win.
You know, steph, I'm going tomake this shot.
You know there's this knowingthat they have, and that comes
through Like I'm not going tosay what it comes from.
What does that come from?
Like, how do you get to thatlevel of faith, that level of

(23:05):
assurance?

Speaker 1 (23:09):
I think it's resisting amnesia.
I can't forget, man, I won'tallow myself to forget.
That's where it came from.
So you know I remember mom saidsomething the same thing when I
was at in-laws.
but your mom said something.
Oh, I call her mom too, butI'll never forget.

(23:31):
This is another powerful momentthat happened at the hospital.
Uh, she came up there and wewere in deep desperation and it
just happened.
And jackie's laying there andshe's looking at her daughter
and she said these words.
She said our family's not usedto this type of warfare.
We need Mama Green here.
I never forget that.
She said your mama got somestories.

(23:52):
She prayed you back to life,your mom.

Speaker 4 (23:54):
That's right.

Speaker 1 (23:55):
Man Shoot.
Alright, sorry, but I think,like she even recognized, that
um faith and the knowing um itreally comes from um man, like

(24:18):
history with god, history withgod and um not saying months,
and I have my own story andseeing god, but I remember.
But I remember that moment.
I remember she was like yo, weneed Mom Green.
Like Mom Green, she done seen.
Like this, ain't Harris warfare?
Like this, some green stuff,and so like we fighting for a
green legacy, like you got theseed and I remember that.

(24:42):
I remember my mom come up thereand I remember Aunt Vern coming
up there and declaring life andwe're unwavering.
But I really believe that levelof faith is produced by not
forgetting.
Like not forgetting.
It's funny when you read theBible and you get to and, and

(25:05):
even Deuteronomy, it's almostlike God talk about something
else.

Speaker 2 (25:12):
It's definitely, we get it.

Speaker 1 (25:14):
Like he is so redundant.
It's like, okay, you broughtthe Israelites out of Egypt.
Like how many times he did like, yep, yep, yep, hey, tell this
story.
That's right.
Hey, moses, tell this.
And then even Moses, when he'scharging and raising up his
mentee Joshua, he's like, hey,make sure you tell them this.

(25:35):
And it's over and over and overRight, because there is nothing
like history that builds yourfaith.
It's why they would put stonesout, because what's going to
happen happen is, and thosestones will build a monument, an
altar, even, of saying, hey,don't forget when we crossed
this river, don't forget whengod slayed this, this giant,
don't forget when god dealt withhis army, don't forget when.

(25:57):
And so what happens is theyknow from generation to
generation, or even from monthto month.
If you don't keep the testimonyalive, it'll water down and
you'll think that you did ityourself.
You'll, you'll, you'll foolyourself and and thinking travis
, you built the big church.
Travis, you didn't do nothing,fam.
You had a speech impediment andwas pronounced dead.

(26:18):
That's what you were like youlike you were fatherless.
You didn't make the basketballteam because you was too short
and you got a girl that's wayout of your league.
That's your actual resume likefam, you ain't what, no, you
ain't built like no man themusical talent that I have.
Everything that I have has beena gift, a loan, even from god,

(26:39):
and my only responsibility is asteward.
I don't own anything.
I'm a manager of everything hegives me.
The bible says the earth is thelord's and the fullness thereof
, and I think the only way thatI keep that alive in me is man.
I can't, I won't forget, Ican't be in his presence and and
act like I don't remember what.
I can't just get so casual Iwas.

(27:01):
I just shared this past Sundaya story that happened.
I was at a conference and, um,you know, know, I just, I just
kind of made it into like thecool preachers club, right, I, I
, no, I'm being serious, I'm noteven trying to be funny.

Speaker 2 (27:14):
It's a club.

Speaker 1 (27:14):
Yeah it's a club and you know it's a frat and so, um,
you know I was coming up andeverybody knew me for singing,
which you know.
If you're already known forsomething, it's very hard.
You know, michael jordan, goodluck at baseball.
We just want you to dribble thebasketball, you know I mean.
So, like travis just saying,shut up, you don't know how to
preach, you know, no one cares.
No one knows that I'm actuallyeducated in theology.

(27:35):
No one cares.
No, get a thing, post a.
Post a music video guitar yeah,quit posting these preaching
clips.
Who don't want that?
Get up there and do a spin move, you know.
So, um, so you know I had I hadan uphill battle with that of
like no, there's more to me,right, there's more to me.
And so I just probably over thepast, you know, three years,
kind of broke through and I gotsome really cool looks on some

(27:57):
big platforms.
That kind of, you know, inman's eyes solidified me as like
a bona fide speaker.
You know, when Jace put you upand Ferdinand put you up, mike
put you up, joe olstein put youup, and you know, you know
people start noticing.
So I started getting thoselooks and and then, um, so I
started getting invited to kindof be in the cool club you know,

(28:18):
and some of the group takes andsome of the conferences and
stuff.
So something happened to merecently.
I was at a conference and, um,I mean, these guys are're
talking about the most famouspreachers of our generation.
You know I love them all andthis is not.
I want to make sure that I'mvery clear.
It's not a knock and it's notme throwing shade, it's not me,
none of that.
This is literally just a purething that God did to me, right?

(28:40):
So I'm standing there and theworship team is up there and I'm
like you know I'm also.
You know, when you're in a newspace and you're trying to
figure out etiquette, if I'm inyour world, there's an etiquette
in your world.
If I show up, I'm like yo, likewhat I'm supposed to do, you
know what I mean.
So I'm looking around, like,okay, this is etiquette.

(29:00):
You know, don't do nothingstupid, you know.
So I'm like alright, everybodynod their head, nod their head.
You know, worship, this is cooland I'm like so.
Then I was just like lift myhands.
I was like man, and you know, Iwas like okay, I lifted my hand
, one hand, two hands, cool,cool, cool.
And man, the spirit of the lord, spoke to me and convicted me
and he was like yo, what's that?

(29:23):
what you doing yeah, he was likedid you ask me what I want?
And I was like yo, like I, I'mworshiping here.
Like, did you ask me what Iwant?
And I'm like well, you knowwhat do you want?
He's like I want you on yourknees.
So this is just to paint thepicture for you.
This is Anthony Edwardsstanding amongst you know what I

(29:44):
mean?
Like Braun Katie, you know whatI mean.
Like Braun Katie, you know whatI mean Like.
These folks are bonafide.
They got chips, they gotbanners.
They ain't no scrubs Like.
And Anthony like doingsomething.
So I just get to my knees andI'm just like, and when I got
there, it was almost like aportal opened up and the Lord
started speaking to me.
He was like boy, don't you everforget?

(30:06):
Like, don't you ever get toocool for me?
Like what, no man, don't you?
No, fam?
Uh-uh, you forget to worship.
I forget how to use you Like,don't get it twisted.
What makes you special is thisposture.
It ain't your performance, itain't your eloquent preaching.
Oh, you've grown as a preacher.
Oh, you recognize now thatain't what I look at.

(30:27):
I don't see trophies.
I could care less.
I got.
I walk on gold, the thing thatyou posting about.
I walk on fam.
It ain't nothing to me.
So like don't get a bit anddon't forget.
And not in like a, not in likea Tupac way you know what I mean
but really, and like a lovingfather, like nah, you know what
we do.
Yeah, man, like I want the realyou, I don't want all the other

(30:51):
stuff, and so it is a.
I say that to say like I'm notsuperhuman.
I have moments where, whetherit's because of a setting, or
it's because of a season, orit's because of pressure, or
it's because of stress, where Imay, you know, shift, shift,
downshift to like chill, andthen God, in his graciousness,

(31:12):
is quick to remind me that, likeyou never graduate worship, and
one of the things that fuelthat is memory so don't forget
you mentioned, and it's reallyone of the first.

Speaker 2 (31:24):
I don't want to assume that everybody watching
this knows your, your testimonyfrom when you were young and
what God did and how your motherprayed you literally back to
life.
I remember hearing it early onwhen I first met you.
I don't want to assume thateverybody watching it already
knows that.
Can you talk about what thatwas, because I do think that
that's a pivotal part of yourability to remember, like your

(31:46):
whole life has been rememberingand knowing God to be miraculous
yeah, yeah for sure.

Speaker 1 (31:51):
Yeah, I was four years old, we were living in
germany and, um, I fell fourfloors out of a window, um, over
there, and my mother, um, cameand they told her I was dead.
And, uh, doctors that out therethey couldn't resuscitate me,
so they pronounced me dead onthe spot.
And my mother, you know shepicked up my lifeless body and

(32:13):
just started screaming Jesus,jesus, blood of Jesus, and
miraculously, god gave me back,you know, my life.
And as we were, they kept me inthe hospital for a few days.
As we were leaving, I told herI was like I have to tell you
what happened.
And I told her I was like Ihave to tell you what happened.
And I told her I rememberfalling, but I never hit the
ground.
Right before I was about to hitthe ground, there was a man with

(32:33):
a big hand that caught me.
It's the best way I coulddescribe the encounter.
I told her I couldn't see hisface, but I heard a voice and it
said do you want to come homewith me or go with your mom?
And I was like I want my mom.
And he's like, okay, next time,uh, you'll come with me, and so
that that's when I was four.
Um, and when we talk about youknow remembering, people ask me

(32:55):
often like do you remember thatencounter?
And that truth is?
I mean no, just like glimpses.
You know, barely.
I'm four.
You know I'm 41 now, so that's37 years ago.
However, my mother didn't allowme to forget.
She just always talked about itAlways.
She'd still talk about it.
My mom is preaching a sermon.
She's still going to talk aboutit.

(33:16):
My mom I came up in the 90s, soit was testimony.
We'd get embarrassed.
At every church we'd go to,She'd just pop up.
She'd be like I got something totell Stand up, to just pop up
and be like I got something totell Stand up, yeah, just like.
Pop on one of them old songs,put your time in payday coming
after a while and then testify.
So I never and again.
But it built in me a knowinglike I know God is real.

(33:37):
It's not a question about it.
Like I know, I know he's realand I just want to.
I want to please him with thelife I have, you know.

Speaker 4 (33:45):
That's incredible, that when I want to please him
with the life I have you know,that's incredible.
That's amazing.
Yeah, I was thinking even aboutwhen you mentioned about Moses
telling Joshua.
I think he even says it thisway.
He says to remember, toremember.

Speaker 1 (33:57):
Yeah, I love that yeah.

Speaker 4 (33:58):
I love that.
I kind of feel like just eventhe way that some of the stories
you're telling, like about Jace, even the church, I feel like
there is an invitation for themiraculous on your life.
I don't know if you, I don'tknow if you feel that way, if
you've sensed that like, maybetalk about just how you're
remembering but also yourrelationship in history with god
like invites miracles, becauseI mean, I feel like every time

(34:22):
there's something amazing that'slike god did this, god this in
your life.
Maybe just talk about that.

Speaker 1 (34:29):
Well, the funny thing about miracles, man, is that
miracles are only exciting whenthey happen.
Deliverance isn't somethingthat you look forward to unless
you're bound.
So the prereq to a miracle is adesperate situation and I think
that's more the marker.
The prereq to a miracle is adesperate situation and I think
that's more the marker.

(34:49):
You know, I've been in a lot ofjust dire situations where it's
like God, if you don't comethrough, you know we short.
But what that does to yourfaith is that you see a
consistent pattern of him comingthrough.
But I don't want to miss that.
There are times that God doesnot do it the way you want.
Because again, I think weprobably keep referring to this

(35:09):
what Norman said if you get tooahead of the story, you'll just
miss key ingredients.
And the reality of my story,much like everyone else's story,
is that there were outcomes,even in the need of miracles,
that I didn't get.
You know prime example a yearafter I'm prayed back to life,
my father at the age of 28,.
A year after I'm prayed back tolife, my father at the age of
28,.
You know, I'm five then has ananeurysm on a Sunday morning.

(35:31):
That's it.
The devil taunts my mom andsays where's that power?
Now You're able to pray yourson back to life and look at
your husband laying therelifeless.
Look at him.
They're going to pull the plug.
This is it.
Where's that?
Where's your god?
so, she so, and you know I'mfive years old, I had a funeral
for my dad, watching him go sixfeet in the ground.

(35:52):
And you know the after jace.
You know, yeah, jace, victory,victory.
The next baby after jace welost in a miscarriage.
You know, um, it wasn't fullterm but you know she miscarried
.
And so you know there areseasons in your life.
I think the full story is thatthere are mountains and valleys.
There are.
There are victories and thereare there are seasons in your
life.
I think the full story is thatthere are mountains and valleys,
there are victories and thereare hard seasons.

(36:12):
Man, I don't want to call themlosses or defeats, I think
that's giving the enemy too muchcredit, but I think there are
some hard seasons.
There are valleys, there arethings which you don't get the
outcome you desire, and sothat's also matures your faith
to understand that, even if goddoesn't do it the way you want
him to, that doesn't change theconsistency of his character.

(36:34):
God is god.
God is god, joe.
If everybody in your familydied, he's still god.
If you lose your crib andeverything in a hurricane and
your flesh far from your bones,he's's still God and he doesn't
owe you anything, right?
God owes no man, nothing.

Speaker 2 (36:49):
Not even an explanation.

Speaker 1 (36:51):
Not even an explanation.
Yeah, he don't owe you yournext breath.
He don't owe you the health ofyour family or you.
He don't owe you gasoline inyour car.
God don't owe you nothingbecause he's sovereign, he's
self-sufficient.
He existed before we were here.
He, he's sovereign, he'sself-sufficient.

(37:14):
He existed before we were here.
He don't exist when he's gone.
Where we're going, he's got,and so I think that's a very
important thing to learn, um,especially in this generation
that want to tick, tockmicrowave god, that just want a
quick yeah and then we get soand what happens is the danger
in that is that you're onedisappointment away yeah from
turning your back.
Yeah, you know you want your one.
My granddaddy didn't make it.
I ain't never going back.
You know I lost a job.
God must not be real.

(37:34):
He broke my heart.
God must not be real.
It's like no, he's God right.
Life happens and I think it'ssomething that I had to learn,
and I learned very quickly at anearly age age that life happens
.
I'm not guaranteed anything.
Be grateful for every littlething.
Be grateful for every day.
Like man.
Like man, you get to look at an8-year-old and a 10-year-old.

(37:55):
Your dad never did.

Speaker 3 (37:56):
Wow.

Speaker 1 (37:57):
He never got to see you at that age.
Like you know, my baby is aboutto turn 6 in two months.
Like I got to experience hiswhole kindergarten my dad was
going before I startedkindergarten, you know.
So, not not taking life forgranted, and I feel like many of
us treat life like we treat, wetreat it so casual, like we

(38:19):
know.

Speaker 2 (38:20):
You know it's gonna be there and we know y'all, just
know my mama gonna be there?

Speaker 1 (38:23):
do I?
Do I Like you know, like I justknow, this is going to last, is
it so?
It's really like man takingappreciation, having gratitude
in your heart, enjoying what Goddoes decide to bless you with.
But you know, it's okay to havethings.
It's not okay for things tohave you, and the only proof

(38:44):
that it doesn't have you is yourwillingness to lay it on the
altar.
Continue to be generous,continue to be open and just
continue to want to please him.
I think it's our greatest giftto God.

Speaker 3 (38:54):
Something you're talking about is really mature
For a lot of especially I sayMav-type viewers.
You got a lot of people.
That are what we would considernewer in the faith and the
concepts.
Even the level of faith thatthey was on is very mature.
You know you have people thatsay things like you know,

(39:14):
whatever your my sister's gayGod can't hate gay.
You know, I can't believe hewould hate gay people.
Or you know my brother died ina car accident.
There's no way God is real.
It's these simple things, youknow, just these humanistic ways
of viewing God.
And one of the things I learnedwhen I first started attending

(39:34):
Ford City it was just somethingI always reconciled, I always
wrestled with was in all things,give thanks, all things you
know.
And how we define good isn't theway God defines good, you know
we would look at the j situation, say that was good and the
miscarriage and say it was bad.
But both were good to god,right?

(39:55):
yeah it's like hard to sit hereand say, like there's a woman
watching this and she's, what doyou mean?
My miscarriage was good.
How would you explain that?
You give it to like, how woulda you know it's a woman, why
there's a?
You know there's someonewatching this who's a sibling,
struggles or whatever.
And then you know, and we don'tgive thanks for the struggle,
we give thanks for the, theredemption, the overcome or the

(40:17):
lack of, because there's ajourney, there's, there's
something that takes, butexplain that to us.

Speaker 1 (40:22):
Yeah, that's great, great question.
Yeah, I agree, we're not goodenough to define good.
First of all, good is not aword like to describe.
You know, good is not like acharacteristic of God.
He is good, like that is who heis, right, right, it's like.

(40:49):
It's like trying to rip mymanhood from me and say, well,
you, you like a man.
No, I'm a man, right like you.
Got you kind of good.
No, I'm good, like I am whatgood is.
Yeah, I am what good is.
I was reading, uh, we're goingthrough our bible series at the
church where we're specificallywe're calling it red letters
because we're specificallytalking about things that, uh,
words, that the word said thingsthat jesus said.
I was reading through luke andit was so funny to me.
He was walking and he's on hisway to Calvary and they get this

(41:12):
guy to help him carry the crossand as he's carrying it and I
saw other times where he wouldquote Old Testament, but I don't
know how I missed this he'sbeat up.
You know, he's not evenrecognizable as a human.
You're talking about injustice.
He's headed up to Calvary.
The Bible says in Luke there'ssome weeping women and he turns
to them and starts quoting Hosea.

(41:35):
He quotes a passage from Hoseaand it's like first of all, I
don't.
The only thing I know aboutHosea is Gomer, his wife.
I don't know one verse fromHosea.
I cannot quote one.
I know who he was, but I can'tquote nothing from the prophet
Hosea.
Jesus turned to start quotingbeat up.

(41:57):
At a time like this, at a timelike this, you want to talk
about Hosea.
I was reading the Bible andwhen I read the Bible I'm
prayerful and so I'm like I'mkind of conversing, you know, in
my spirit, with God and I'mlike yo, this is like Jesus is
really like full of the word andI really felt like almost like.
I know he didn't, but it feltlike God almost wanted to like

(42:19):
backhand.
Slap me, what do?
you mean he's full of it, he isthe word.
He literally said it John 1.
In the beginning was the word.
The word was with God.
The word was God, like the onlything that could come out of
him is what he already is.
And so when you talk aboutgoodness, that's who God is Like
.
It is literally he breathesgoodness, he is goodness, he is

(42:41):
good.
And so the thing about sorrow orthe thing about grief, it's not
an indictment on its goodness,it's the fact that we're in a
broken world.
And if you want to get mad atanybody, don't get mad at God,
get mad at Adam and Eve Like.
You want to slap anybody youcan pimp, slap them in heaven.
They don't mess everything upLike.
There will be no miscarriage,there will be no you know, no

(43:03):
sudden death, there will be nocancer, there will be no
heartache Everyone for thesebobo heads eating the fruit,
having a conversation with asnake, like what a loser, right.
So it's like if you want to getmad at somebody, get mad at
your great, great, great to themillions of grandparents,
because they don't want to messthis up.
First of all, the other thing isthat God is so good.
He's too good to cause evil, sohe doesn't cause bad things to

(43:25):
happen, but he's so good that hecan use bad things, and that's
the beauty and sovereignty ofGod.
Paul wrote in Romans 8, 28,that all things work together
for the good of those who lovethe Lord and are called
according to his purpose.
So if you love the Lord andyou're walking out the purposes
of God in your life, then eventhe bad things that happen to
you, even your regrets, even thelowest moments, has to somehow,

(43:47):
in God's infinite ability andwisdom, work together in your
life for good.
And that's just my trust andbelief.
There are a lot of things thathave happened.
There are a lot of funerals Iattended.
There are a lot of heartbreaks.
There are a lot of hospitalvisits.
It was like man dang.
This doesn't feel right.
This just feels wrong.
Why him?
Why he had to get in amotorcycle crash, why she has

(44:08):
had to get in this car accident?
Man, like it's a lot ofhorrible people out here.
She's like the greatest personin the world.
Like why?
Why is our friend going?
You know, and you just have toremind your soul that no, god
ain't the one who made thisdriver hit him.
But god is going to use thestory of his life and he's going
to bless his offspring and Jetand April, and God's going to

(44:29):
still work this thing togetherfor good somehow, and we're not
smart enough to know how he'sgoing to do it.

Speaker 4 (44:37):
Yeah, you said something even that stood out to
me.
It was you said you learned whoGod is, not when the miracle
happened with Jace, but duringthe times that you were going to
the hospital and doing thebands, and I thought that was a
very important distinction, noton the other side of the victory
, but through the trial.

Speaker 1 (44:56):
Life is not about the other side man.
It's not.
It's not.
I don't like it.

Speaker 2 (45:05):
I don't like that.

Speaker 1 (45:06):
Yeah, the first five books are not about the other
side.
Exodus, leviticus, numbers,deuteronomy are all about the
journey.
Right, and that tells you a lotthat how I handle the
wilderness matters more than howI handle the promised land.
Of course you're going to turnup when you get the outcome you

(45:28):
want, of course, of courseeverybody celebrates at
graduation.
Who doesn't have fun at thehoneymoon?
Did your engagement, please,God?
Of course, of course, when youget the x-ray in your favor.
Yeah, you're going to come tochurch and testify, but do you
have a praise when, every timeyou go, you get a report you
don't want, because that's whatwe were faced with in testify,
but do you have a praise when,every time you go, you get a
report?
You don't want, you know,because that's what we were

(45:48):
faced with in the hospital?
We kept getting reports that wewe didn't want.
We had naysayers, we haddoctors that was like, yeah, I
know, we had nurses who thedoctors are trying to tell them
hey, don't do that wristbandthing, because you're giving
them hope and y'all know thisbaby ain't gonna make it.
That's an actual, true story noway, so can't.
Yeah, man, I could sing in frontof thousands made away.

(46:09):
Now, I think when it meant moreto god is when I was singing it
with a guitar to just my wifeand trusting him like that.
That's real worship, thejourney that dash in, you know,
on your, on your tombstone.
That's that's where reallymatters.
I think it matters.
I think true character is notjust revealed on a mountain, but

(46:32):
in the valley.
Let me say it even better Ithink it is revealed on a
mountain, I think it's developedin the valley, and if you skip
the valley, that's going to.
You know your character isgoing to take, you know your
gift is going to take yousomewhere.
Your character can't keep you.
So I think, the valley is justimportant.
I think it's where we meet God,I think it's where we
strengthen our faith, and Ithink it's where he really
develops something in us that'lllast.

Speaker 2 (46:54):
I think that's that maturity piece too, and I
remember just the trajectory ofyour career in music and the
shift into pastoring, andacknowledging just what felt
like a weight to me, not like aheaviness, but just like a
gravity, a sobriety, um, that Isaw on you, and it wasn't that

(47:19):
you hadn't been that before, butit was that it was just.
Travis is different now, andit's easy to say, oh, because
he's a pastor now.
It wasn't that, though, and nowI have language for it.
Even in having thisconversation, it's like, oh, I
get it.
Yeah, he was matured, butthere's, and I think for a lot
of believers and Normanmentioned, like the audience of

(47:39):
you know that might be watchingthis that are newer in their
faith, are still developing inthat way.
You know, it's like, you know,the Hebrew boys went into the
furnace and they said, hey,god's going to deliver us, but
even if he doesn't and I, evenin my own faith, often struggle
with that, like it's like no,god's going to deliver me, and
if he doesn't, then I don't knowabout God.

(48:01):
But that's not what they saidEven if he doesn't, we still
won't bow down to you and westill are going to believe that,
and that comes from aconviction that I think is a
gift from God.
It's the grace of God to haveit, but it's something to fight
for.
It is a conviction to fight for.
So when you say, like thechildren of Israel walking
through the Red Sea yeah, egyptwas right behind them they

(48:24):
weren't rejoicing yet becausefor all they knew, the water
should part it and now they'regoing to get to come through too
, they had no idea that he wasgoing to crash the water in over
the enemy.
All they knew was a naturalphenomenon is happening.
We better run and try to stayahead of them.
But you don't know what God'sprovision is going to look like,
or his goodness in that momentis going to look like.

(48:45):
And I think there's just such abeautiful faith maturing
component to that that like, hey, it's okay to acknowledge I
don't know.
I don't know what this, what'swhat this?
is going to turn out to be.
But once you realize thatyou're on the other side to say
god's going to come through.
But even if he doesn't and Ithink that's just I'm always
striving to be in that place itseems like you're so there, you

(49:07):
know I think the beautiful thingthat you said even there, that
I mean you said it, but in thefullness of what you said.

Speaker 3 (49:12):
They didn't even know the water was gonna stay up
that's right you know what I?
Mean it's like, as you're going, you know you let you do it,
but they don't even know thatit's gonna stay up.
And I think many of us wrestle,kurt carter, many of us wrestle
in that tension of knowing.

Speaker 2 (49:27):
That's right.

Speaker 3 (49:27):
You know and not knowing, or desiring and doing
what we don't desire, and Ithink the beauty of what we're
discussing now is he really justsaid it's that the integrity
you need is made in the valley,and if it's not made in the

(49:49):
valley, what you are will beexposed on the mountaintop I
think they feed each other right, in my personal opinion, um,
and this is this is not, uh,this is not linear.

Speaker 1 (50:01):
I mean, this thing right here is very nuanced.

Speaker 2 (50:03):
Good god, almighty, I mean, you could go.

Speaker 1 (50:05):
That's 20 different there's a, there's an hour
conversation per denominationabout what.
What has attributed to thismess, um, um, I think one of the
things is we, I think it's the,it's, the it's again.
I'm talking about the blackcontext.
I think, man, we've done adisservice by not raising our

(50:27):
kids in church, by not teachingthem the ways of God, by not
living a consistent life as bestas we can.
You know, the perfection is outof reach, but I think
consistency is attainable and wehaven't done that.
We've told them one thing, butwe do another one.
We tell our daughters, you know, hey, save yourself to marriage

(50:47):
.
But you know, as a single mom,everybody her uncle coming
through every other weekspending the night.
So you know, I think ourinconsistencies have helped to
create this thing, thisnarrative in their mind, that
surely that can't be real.
Because I haven't seen anexample and whenever I have
heard anything that counteredthe faith I have, I'm surrounded

(51:10):
, I was my, I'm blessed and Ihear what you're saying.
There's a generation that don'thave that testimony.
Um, but I, I mean, I have somany examples around me, the way
I was raised that any excusefor rebellion was was eliminated
at a very early age because, Isaw the hand of God and I saw
consistency being displayed.
I think what has happened to itspoint.
When you talk about success andmoney, I think it definitely

(51:34):
has deflated our desperation,and desperation is a reminder of
your need for God.
But I think another thing thatis very critical.
That's happened and this dawnedon me.
I'm doing a dissertation on avery interesting subject, but
the actual subject is theperception of church leaders

(51:57):
regarding the impact of clergyinfidelity.

Speaker 4 (52:00):
Yeah, I think I saw you put that.

Speaker 1 (52:01):
Yeah, and so it's regarding clergy infidelity and
it's in how it's affected churchgrowth, commitment trust,
church metrics, right,congregational trust, but
specifically through the lens ofchurch leaders who witnessed
clergy infidelity.
Now, one of the things that Ibring it up because one of the

(52:23):
things I brought up that veryinteresting is a guy said in the
church he was in that when thepastor fell in infidelity, he
said it had two different levelsof impact.
Right, he said the older peoplewere more forgiving.
The older people were like,yeah, man, you know he messed up
.
That's still our man of God.

(52:43):
I hope he get better, you know.
I hope he, you know, you know,take a couple weeks and come on
back to the pulpit.
The younger people was like yo,I don't want to do with god.
Wow, right, and so I share thatas an example.
Again, the younger people waslike I don't want anything to do
with god got it.
This is what god is about.
I'm good got it other people'slike, and I think there's

(53:04):
several things that speak tothat.
I think one older people havehistory with God, have their own
relationship with God, so thefragility of a man is not going
to change that.
Young people don't have thatcontext.
But I think another thing thatis even more important is that
the young mind is still beingformed and it's still
inquisitive and it's still beingformed and it's still it's
still inquisitive and it's stillbeing shaped.

(53:26):
So what I see, I believe andwhat I believe becomes my
reality, and I think that's oneof the things we're facing, even
in addition to, yeah, uh,success and money and this and
that in our community we alsojust have not seen.
Um, we haven't seen greatmodels man.
We haven't seen great modelsman.

Speaker 3 (53:46):
We haven't seen great models.
We haven't have the modelsactually changed or has
information become moreplentiful?

Speaker 1 (53:52):
The models have completely changed.
Expound on that, yeah, the hero,the only person who mattered in
a black community, in civilrights, was preachers and
barbers.
Okay, you know, coming out ofslavery In slavery, the preacher
was the only one who could read, so that was.
He's the only person of actualstatus.
You come into civil rights.
It was the barber, the preacher.
And then you have some peoplewho broke through your, your sam

(54:14):
cooks, to the world.
Uh, you know so, but it wasn't.
Yeah, how, and I'm not.
This is not a knock againsthip-hop.
I actually I'm a big fan of, Ilove OutKast.
That was my boy, you know, backin the day.

Speaker 3 (54:27):
He doesn't know any hip hop artists.

Speaker 1 (54:29):
I know OutKast I don't know any current.

Speaker 2 (54:30):
I was wondering who he was going to say.
So when he said OutKast, I wasa little bit shocked.
I don't know any current.

Speaker 1 (54:35):
I don't know any current.
I met DaBaby two weeks ago atand I was like cool man, great
to meet you.
I was literally about to say myboys love the song you did on
Space Jam.

Speaker 4 (54:46):
That's a little bit of that?

Speaker 1 (54:48):
Yeah, I found that out, so I'm so glad I didn't say
that.

Speaker 2 (54:51):
Same last name baby.

Speaker 1 (54:52):
Yeah, I have no idea who.
No one is.
It could be a famous one ofthese guys could be a famous
rapper.
I have no idea.
But I'm saying, is now the rolemodels have changed back then

(55:14):
there?
Back then there was and I'm not, I want y'all to hear me
correctly I'm not sayingpreachers are all that matter.
You know, I don't want to betaking out our context all
barbers, all that matters, but Iam saying there was a level of
etiquette, there was a level ofsophistication, black success of
like man, I want to.
Ooh, I want to carry abriefcase one day.

(55:35):
Oh man, I want to own my owncar, I want to, you know.
And so that is going.
So now, the average child in theschool, there's only two things
that look successful LeBron orthe baby.
There ain't no in between.
They're my only two referencesfor success as a female.
It is Nicki Minaj or it is youknow whatever.

(55:58):
And these are only so nowbecause of media and social
whatever.
And again, I'm not knockingnone of these people God bless
them all but I'm just saying, ifthat's my aim and these lyrics
are my education, then I thinkthat this is the path forward
and this is.
This is the only thing I'mconsuming and it completely

(56:18):
shapes my world and my reality,even if it's not my reality.
So I think that's another thingthat has just happened, you
know.
So everybody trying to besomething because they think
this is the only path to successwe talked about that on a
couple episodes like the?

Speaker 3 (56:33):
uh personification of black wealth and how it shapes
and molds the minds of people,like you know.
Uh, we're talking about like atthe?
Uh, I see my nephews that cameout to my daughter's birthday
now they wear like little chains, right, and my best friend,
kobe, his son, he had like achain that he got off Amazon.
It's like you're talking aboutaffluent kids, suburbs, parents

(56:56):
doing well and they want to wearchains and it's just like it's
not.
I think, as we continue tomatriculate and become
successful, being true to thethings that we embody, like
being a pastor, wearing a chaindon't mean nothing.
It's just, it's a way ofexpressing who we are and it's
our culture and that's not anegative thing and I think that

(57:18):
we would be remiss to not givethat example from various
verticals, like a pastor doingit, a ministry leader doing it,
a basketball player doing it.
It's it.
It allows it to becomenormalized in our culture so
that it doesn't shape the way ayoung black man is viewed uh in

(57:41):
in a negative light simplybecause of some stereotypes
someone sees associated with aparticular profession.

Speaker 1 (57:46):
And I think that's why the onus is on us.
Yes To, and I'm doing somethingactive, but I mean actively,
and this goes beyond socialmedia.
I'm actively and I'm not.
I haven't done it enough.
So I literally got a text aboutit yesterday, but I think last
week I went to a middle schoolum in the city and talked and
then my assistant was like oh mygod, now people haven't seen

(58:09):
the polls they're blowing up.
Every school in columbia wantsto come by.
How many are you willing to do?
And I was like as many as myschedule will allow, um, and in
the past that was.
I would be like, uh, like Ineed, I don't really want to you
know I did it.

Speaker 2 (58:21):
Yeah, I did it.

Speaker 4 (58:22):
Yeah, it's been done.

Speaker 1 (58:23):
But I have a burden.
And when I was in front ofthose kids majority of them, you
know, either black or Hispanicand I'm in front of these kids
and the I don't want to beexplicit because someone may
watch, but one of the kids wassupposed to be in a leadership
role at the school and the thing, the clothes that the kid had

(58:47):
on, I was just like man and youknow, as a.
So they just told me what theenvironment was that they were
in and and then me just thinkingI don't see myself as people
see me, and I think that's agood thing and you know, those
are normally close to know thatabout me.
I don't, I'd literally forgetuntil somebody.
I'm still shocked when peoplewalk up to me in the airport and

(59:08):
I'm just like, who me like?
Oh, hey, you want to?
Oh, you want a picture?
Okay, it's still, I'm still noteven.
I thought it's years, I'm notused to it.
Um, so I forget how me comingto that school like it is, and
one of the teachers told methere's like this is the closest
taste.
They're gonna get up likethey've never been out of the

(59:29):
city, you know.
So the kids are like what car,what car you drove here.
You know, I mean, I happen tohave some spare shoes in my car.
I was like what size you wear?
I gave the shoes away butthey're just like, oh what, how
much that necklace cost.
Who all famous?
Who all famous in your phone.
You know, you know they justthey just pumped up.
Yeah, because, and and thereason I'm sharing this is

(59:49):
because and the reason I sayit's on us is because we have to
redefine the ways to success,the ways to being able to
provide for your family, or tobuild a future, or to have
legacy, or their only model isliterally what they see on
YouTube.
So if I line all those kids upliterally and say what do you

(01:00:11):
want to be when you grow up,none of them will want to work
in a service-like job.
None of them are occupants noway.
Ain't not one of them about tosay nurse?
Ain't not one of them going tosay I want to be a?
You know, anything that can addvalue to a community?
Everybody, rapper Hooper period.
And then you're in eighth grade.

(01:00:31):
You're in eighth grade.
In eighth grade, you know ifyou're going pro or not.
Somebody told you by now it's2025.

Speaker 2 (01:00:39):
They told you in sixth grade You're either tall
enough or you're not going to bethat.

Speaker 1 (01:00:42):
Somebody told you already, but anyway, yeah, I
think that's our responsibilityto help show.

Speaker 3 (01:00:48):
show them a different way I mean we have to know it's
a real reality.
My mom want to play basketballyou know what I mean that's what
he want to do today right nowreally yes, yeah what do your
boys want to do?

Speaker 2 (01:00:59):
well, gabe wants to be an egyptologist of course he
does he wants to.
He wants to dig up things inEgypt badly like.
He badly wants to go and like,discover, like more mummies them
nerd genes are crazy strong.

Speaker 1 (01:01:19):
It's really strong.
Them dog on nerd genes is crazy.
Well, you know cause.

Speaker 2 (01:01:25):
Janice and I met at a math and science summer camp,
so you were going to be doingthis Like.
I mean, you're just what is it.

Speaker 1 (01:01:32):
I found my calling.

Speaker 2 (01:01:33):
Dad.
I found him a shirt that saysfuture Egyptologist.
He wore it yesterday around thehouse.
I love that.
That's what he changed into Wow, but to that point he's eight.
That's like he just thinksthat's what I'm gonna go and dig
things in egypt and he wants togo to egypt badly, like, can we
go to egypt?
But it's to that point.
It's what you see.
Yeah, you know he was watchingyoutube videos of the great

(01:01:54):
pyramids, understanding that youknow the, the engineering of
them and the construct of themwas a wonder, like we don't know
how that happened without themachinery that we have today,
and he was fascinated by that,like at age four.
So because he was rehearsingthat and seeing that, and then,
you know, there would be someonepopping up saying I'm an
archaeologist I'm a he's likeokay, well, that's an option but

(01:02:14):
I think for a lot of peopleespecially like you're talking
about going to schools if allthey see is are certain things,
those are the only options, andthe mind can only dream what it
has, an idea that exists.
Wow, it's true.
And so I think the more to yourpoint that we start to see
things.
I remember when I was youngerhearing about ken chanel and him
being a ceo at uh, at americanexpress, and I thought I didn't

(01:02:36):
know that a black man could dothat.
Wow, I didn't know that a blackman could ever be a ceo of
american express.
So add that to the list if Iwant to wow.
Or or Barack Obama, you knowpeople were always.
What does it mean?
It means like you don't knowwhat it means because you've
never not had the option.
This is the first time that evenI, as a graduate of a law
school working on Wall Street inNew York City, ever thought

(01:02:59):
that I could even beaccomplished enough to be a
president.
Because how could that everhave happened with my skin color
?
That was always.
The message was that is abarrier and restriction, so your
dreams can only go to exit fourgeez, you can't complete the
road trip.
And so when people say like,well, why is this about race?
It's like.
It's not even about race.
Like, just because things haveracial implications or cultural

(01:03:22):
implications, don't make themabout race.
Yeah, that's too easy for it tobe.
Yeah, lumped in that way.
It has to be the nuance of it,which is man.
Your cultural dynamic is suchthat you either saw things or
didn't see things, and that haseither propelled you or
restricted you.

Speaker 1 (01:03:39):
That's literally the probably the driving like part
or point of me even getting aPhD.
It's the only reason I'm doingit.
I was asked like you don't need, like it's not going to change
your life, it's not like it'sgoing to add another opportunity
to you know or whatever, andit's literally 120%.

(01:04:02):
The only reason I'm doing it isrepresentation because I want
to have to be called Dr Green no.
I'll never want to be calledthat.
I actually never want to beaddressed there's only one
doctor.
She's a real doctor and I neveractually want to be addressed as
Dr Travis Green.
It would make me like, even ifpeople did it like, no, I'm

(01:04:22):
still.
Pt at church.
I'm still Trav around the boys.
I don't want to be addressed by.
I just want the kids to knowwho it's possible to have
colored hair, to wear jays yeah,to have a nice watch and to
have a phd I think that's theleadership piece you're talking
about always.

Speaker 2 (01:04:38):
That doesn't exist as much anymore.
We don't have people who will,who will take on a burden, just
to show the future generation ispossible.

Speaker 3 (01:04:47):
That's how we got here right.

Speaker 2 (01:04:48):
That's right, exactly , that's how we got here.

Speaker 3 (01:04:50):
People took on burdens on our behalf.
So I don't know if y'all sawthe clip of Flo J Flo J, sorry
for pronouncing her name.
She plays for LSU, has apodcast Really dope.
But she gave up her seat on theplane to an elderly
African-American woman and itcame to be that the
African-American woman was apolitical activist for equal

(01:05:12):
representation for femaleathletes.
Wow, what?
Yes, literally.
And the woman came back shesaid brings me to tears to
remember.
I fought for her to have theopportunity she has right now.
She gave her seat up, that'scrazy that's crazy, that's crazy

(01:05:33):
that's beautiful man thatliterally just happened.
I think we forget thatsometimes.
You know, I mean and I think alot, you know a lot of the way
on, you know, along, uh, ourjourney in this music thing a
lot of the backlash we receivedwas from not respecting the past
.
Yep, you know what I mean.

(01:05:53):
Not, you know, they dissed usso we dissed back and I think
sometimes you forget the thingyou said, like it didn't matter
what your elder said to you.
You know, you had to show themrespect.
You just said they don'tunderstand what they're talking
about, but you sat there, youlistened.
It didn't matter what yourelder said to you, you had to
show them respect.
You just said they don'tunderstand what they're talking
about, but you sat there, youlistened, and there's a level of
arrogance that has come intothe next generation and also

(01:06:19):
there's a level of arrogance youtake on once you've become
successful.
That's right, and I thinkthere's an air of humility and
meekness that we're allresponsible for arcing back to,
to make sure that we get back tothe place, to where the gospel

(01:06:44):
is at the center.
It's computer, and I talkedabout this on one of them, where
I said what we've lost is thatChristianity used to be an
ethnicity in our community.
People always say what do youmean black American culture?
Black American culture used tobe Christianity.

(01:07:04):
It was a church.
It used to be Christianity.
What do?
It's just a church.
It used to be christianity.
Hey, what do you mean by that?
You know what I mean by that.
You respected your elders.

Speaker 1 (01:07:12):
It was yes, sir, yes, and I go to the side and drink
the bud wiser, and I go to theother side and smoke.
You go behind the tree.
Everybody know what those fourcousins doing over there with
the weed.
Everybody know what youruncle's doing over there.
But you ain't about to be be onGrandma's point with neither
one of them.
That's right.
That was a love.

Speaker 3 (01:07:27):
That was a respect, that was an honor.
Now Grandma's there rolling upwith you that was an honor, that
was a reverence, there was aappreciation, there was prayer
before everything.
You was going to church.
Whether you wanted to or not,you was getting on that van.
That is what it was.
Our ethnicity was Christianity,and as we got more educated, as

(01:07:51):
we got more well off, as wewere no longer as desperate as
we were, whatever, as we beganto have children, younger and
out of wedlock and whateverthese things were we lost that
ethnicity.

Speaker 1 (01:08:05):
That needs to be rebuilt.

Speaker 2 (01:08:07):
And I think we're missing accountability.
Yeah, I mean that was a bigpart when you talk about the
community element Like webelonged to one another as a
people.
Yes, the person down the streethad the authority that she had
in your life Absolutely, justbecause y'all lived down the
street Absolutely.
So get in the house.
Absolutely.
That was enough.
And everyone was an auntie or amissus or a ma'am or a sir.

(01:08:30):
Because we belong to oneanother and there was a sense
that we do.
We don't have that as muchanymore.
It's kind of like who's gonnacheck me?
I get to, you know, chart myown course, be my own person.
You don't get to tell me whatto do.
But there was a time where andI think largely in the civil
rights era especially where theyneeded one another.
We needed to be togetherbecause we needed to watch each

(01:08:51):
other's back.
We needed to be able to lookdown down the street and know we
belong to one another.
What's going to happen to youis going to happen to me.
What, what burns over there isgoing to burn down here soon,
and so I just think we've lostthat sense of belonging to one
another as a community too.

Speaker 1 (01:09:04):
Us not being at the house and us not being in the
community has definitely hurt usin a major, major way, because
that is the example, especiallyfor the up and coming black man,
is the example of how to treata woman.
The example of being a gentleman.
And I'm not saying that the menwere faithful Even some of our

(01:09:25):
heroes weren't faithful, right,but there was a level of respect
that was still there.
You know what I mean?
There was a teaching.
I just remember when we werecoming up in church, there were
little things that they wouldteach us Like hey, you open that
door, you give her your seatJust those little things.

(01:09:45):
That man, these kids, nevereven heard about.
And it's foreign, Like what doyou mean?

Speaker 3 (01:09:51):
We was talking about this earlier about.
Well, kurt was talking abouthis story of you know how he
grew up without a dad.
You know, you and I, it's verysimilar.
You had a dad for a few yearsyou know bless brother y'all but
jj and um ej.
They both grew up with theirdads the whole time.
Wow, yeah, both of themtwo-parent households, and just
the uniqueness of that makes adifference, but you can see it

(01:10:14):
in them.
You know what I'm saying.

Speaker 1 (01:10:15):
Like you can see it I know I'm like what do I, what
do?

Speaker 3 (01:10:19):
we do it's just it's, there's a, it's a search your
son wants to be yeah that's whyno, you can see them.
There's a, there's a.
There's just a difference.
There's a calmness, there's ameekness, there's a sureness in
the identity when you grow up inthe house with a father it's a,
it's a softness.

Speaker 4 (01:10:38):
You know, but you know what I mean.
It's kind of like I don't know,I don't know how to describe it
other than that, but it's, itis I think that's a beautiful
thing.

Speaker 3 (01:10:48):
As we're talking, I was thinking about the things
that could change.
Of all the things we're talkingabout, I don't think we'll ever
go back to the time of being aone community.

Speaker 2 (01:10:58):
That's right.

Speaker 3 (01:10:59):
America's become too diverse.
It's too bifurcated.
We're spread across a lot ofideals.
It's too bifurcated, you know.
We're spread across a lot ofideals.
I don't think.
I hope God sends a revival sopowerful that we go back to 93%
of our nation consideringthemselves Christian.
Statistically the chances ofthat are just very low.

(01:11:20):
But I pray and I hope thathappens.
The one thing that could changeand that we have, you know, the
wherewithal and motivation andability to influence directly,
is men being back in house andyou're seeing a increase in that
more.
You know the rate of singlemotherhood is decreasing.

(01:11:41):
The rate of marriage isbeginning to increase again.
Like all of these, all of thesethings are beginning to swing
the other way on the pendulumand I think a lot of that has to
do with media is covering.
I do believe a lot I had to dowith a brock and michelle
getting elected, seeing a blackfamily.
You know I do believe a lot ofthat do with kamala being
elected.
Hopefully I pronounced her nameright.

(01:12:02):
You got to see certainrepresentation.
Those things define a country,for sure they define a country.
They define LeBron beingmarried and faithful.
You know, whatever the case maybe, those are just Steph Currys
of the world.
There's a lot of examples ofsuccessful couples that our
youth get to see modeled out inlife and I do believe that has a

(01:12:24):
positive impact on what we seetoday.

Speaker 1 (01:12:28):
Massive, massive.
The Huxtables Family Matters,you know God bless his soul.
But the Huxtables FamilyMatters.
You know, like these shows,fresh Prince, were massive to
our community.
You know the one thing theHuxtables was the first black
couple that you saw.
That's what every other blackcouple that you saw.
It was successful.
Every other black couple wascoming up Rough Side 227, barely

(01:12:50):
Making it Hood.
You know, like Sanford and Sonsthe pole, you know, selling
some stuff out that backyard.
You know, like the Huskies waslike no, we're actually
professional.
Cosby did do for our community,was they really?
They displayed something thatour eyes have never, we didn't
know was possible, you know.
And then you think again.

(01:13:11):
You think about a newgeneration.
What's, what's been their modelup to?
I love the example you gave,but, man, that the gap leading
up to that and even after thatis and I don't want to.
I know we're connected to a lotof people, so I'm not trying to
blast anything.
But some of the tv shows thatjust show, you know, women
wilding, you know, and that'ssupposed to be cool.
Or show men dogging women, andthat's supposed to be cool.

(01:13:34):
But another thing aboutchristianity is what has always
fueled christianity the most ispersecution that's right, that's
literally how it started.

Speaker 2 (01:13:44):
Spreading period, yeah, when I think biblical
persecution yeah, that's right,that's literally how it started.
Spreading Period, yeah, when Ithink biblical persecution,
that's, I think what.
I think the closest parallel islike real, you put your life on
the line, not livelihood butyour actual life, and I think
Now that's not to say that Notgetting canceled Right, but I do
think a time is coming, like,do be clear, in our Western,

(01:14:06):
western, cozy society.
I do believe that a time couldcome where we face that level of
biblical persecution, and itmay not be in an organized way,
but it may be a little bit moreunderstood, a little bit more
understandable because, asyou're starting to see, um, the
political space creating uhtension and and really

(01:14:28):
continuing to fuel tensionbetween this kind of
conservative christian right andand the liberal left.
You know it's like, yeah, allit's going to take is a is a
match at some point, andpersecution is going to look way
different in the united statesthan it ever did.

Speaker 3 (01:14:43):
I think the match has been lit.
I think if you evaluate thelast election, you see a
rejection of a move towardleft-foot politics, absolutely.
And America saying brother,this is a Christian nation and
if this the Negro, it's almostlike you know, I used the
foolish things of the world toconfound the wise.

(01:15:04):
If this, who I got to use tobring it back.
And I ain't going to get allinto no dilly-dally dance or
whatever, who right, who wrong,who up, who down, I ain't doing
all of that.
But I can say fervently youlook at the exit polls, you look
at all of that, and this ain'tno political podcast, but the
data is data.
You can argue with the data allyou want.

(01:15:27):
America said we want to gofurther way, further back to
where we were than where we wereheaded and I think that has a
lot to do with a um move awayfrom christian ideals and they
want to move back to them.
And I'm not saying thispresident gonna take us back,
I'm not saying the otherpresident wouldn't have taken us
back what I am saying is thatdown ballot america said we want

(01:15:48):
to go back towards ideas offamily, christ, community,
christianity and these things,and not towards me, me, me, me.
My identity is this it was morewe, we, we, that's how I saw it
.

Speaker 4 (01:16:03):
That's good.
Yeah, I don't.
We don't have to park here long, but I do want you to tell us a
little about the church forcity.
Of course we gotta get back onI don't know how we got on this
point I don't know how we got onthis talk about being we can go
anywhere.

Speaker 3 (01:16:16):
I was literally thinking we talking.
We have the whole.
I said of all the ways thispodcast.
I would have never guessed wewould have got in here and
talked, but you put four blackmen together that are
intelligent.

Speaker 1 (01:16:28):
We're going to talk about the way it affects our
lives, what affects us?
Yeah, yeah, that's good, but wewant to hit the book.

Speaker 3 (01:16:34):
We want to hit the church, we want to hit the
upcoming music, we want to hitall the firebrand things that we
need to hit.

Speaker 1 (01:16:41):
Yeah, church is vibrant.
It's vibrant, it's going greatman.
Um, pastoring is interesting.
Um, our church is calledforward city.
Um, our church is calledforward city.
Um, and uh, it's in columbia,south kilauna, and we're
enjoying it, though you knowit's, it's uh, it's not, it's

(01:17:04):
not easy I heard someone say uh,he was, he was giving an, he
goes.

Speaker 4 (01:17:08):
I've been a pastor for 10 years, which means
someone's been mad at me for 10years.

Speaker 2 (01:17:13):
Do you have people mad at you all the time?
What, yes?
Absolutely Tell me this, though.
So, as a pastor, what are theymad about?
Are they mad about the thingsthat you do say or the things
that you didn't say from thepulpit?

Speaker 1 (01:17:28):
I rarely get a lot of .
If anyone gets upset with me,it's probably not something I
said on the pulpit.
I'm very clear and I try to bevery Holy Spirit led when I'm up
there.
I don't play around with God'smic, so I'm not about to be

(01:17:48):
super cavalier.
I joke a lot, so I make a lotof jokes.
I make a lot of racial jokes,political jokes, any kind of
joke.
It's going to be 10% comedyspecial every time.
That's my preaching style, sothat's going to happen.

(01:18:09):
But as far as like I don't thinka lot of people get offended
with stuff that I say across thepulpit, because even if I say
something strong, I wrap it incompassion.
I think if people get upset,they may.
What kind of leadershipdecisions, um, that they don't
have full context for?
It's probably where more morepeople, if any, get upset.
But we're talking one out of athousand might get an attitude.
So it's not.
It ain't the masses.

Speaker 3 (01:18:24):
What do you feel has helped grow your leadership as a
pastor the most?
Like what part of pastoring orleading, whether it be staff,
whether it be, you know, justgoing through the process,
whether it be new expansion whathas grown you as a leader?

Speaker 1 (01:18:41):
Betrayal has grown me the most.
Wow In gratitude from peoplewho have grown me the most,
ingratitude from people havegrown me the most.
I think it's taught me, andjust it taught me, that people
are going to be people and theirresponse is not my

(01:19:06):
responsibility.
I think early on I put apressure on myself, like almost
wanting to be a puppeteer, Iguess in a sense of like well,
this equals this, so this shouldget this response.
And it's like people like no,I'm not Pinocchio, I don't have
to be grateful.

(01:19:32):
I preached this.
You should be doing it.
It I don't have to say thankyou.
As a matter of fact, I can bewho I want to be and sleep who I
want to sleep and forget you.
So you know, that's just a partof it, though.
You know you get.
You know, I think I thinkpastors get um are easy
scapegoats for life hardships.
So it's like if your husbandcheat on you, it's the pastor
fault.
You know, I mean, like hewouldn't, he wouldn't cheat on

(01:19:53):
me, if you know, if he, if hewasn't on security at the church
, what, what I do, what I gottado, you know.
So you get some of that too.
It's just, it's just an easyout for a lot of life's
difficulties for people.
So you've got to be strong andyou can't.

(01:20:13):
I think another thing I'velearned, norm, is not to take
things personal, and it'ssomething I teach even the
pastors who, you know, reach upto me or reach out to me.
Rather, don't, man, don't takeit personal.
Like, don't take people's exitpersonal.
Don't take people's offensepersonal.
Um, you got to really staybalanced and understanding that

(01:20:36):
people gonna be people and andlove who's there.
You know.
I mean like don't, don't try toum, don't, don't hold someone
else's record against the nextperson.
It's the baby mama who mad atthe new daddy.
It's like, well, terrence was adog, you a dog too, so you got

(01:20:59):
to fight that.
You got to fight that urge tonot trust people because the
last person you trust did youwrong.
So it's all of those things.
But at the same time, there'snothing more rewarding, you know
, man.
For me personally, you know,there's nothing more rewarding
than hearing, you know, ourchurch sing our original music

(01:21:21):
and nothing more rewarding thanseeing people get baptized.
And our last baptism man we did200 three weeks ago.
And I would say a massiveportion of them, probably a
fourth, if not more, probably athird of them, a third of them
look like they probably, youknow, at least in some point in

(01:21:43):
life, an alternative, you know,or alternate lifestyle or some
type of identity battle.
At least a third of them, atleast a third.
So that's beautiful man andcrying.
It's not me to judge theirprogress, but God is doing
something.
God is doing something and it'sdedication.

(01:22:04):
I actually want to please God.
We preach the whole Bible.
I don't do I ain't no skatearound, you know, but I'm not.
But I'm also not mean, notharsh, like the Bible is true
and Jesus is kind and he lovesyou and there's a way out of
this and let us walk alongsidewith you.
It's more of my approach, then.
Don't do this, don't do this,don't do that, don't do that.

(01:22:30):
I just that ain't that, ain'tme.
I'm not gonna preach hate, uh,I'm gonna preach love and it's
effective and people are gettingsaved and have time to connect
it.

Speaker 4 (01:22:34):
So, yeah, I do want to.
I'll be remiss if I didn't, ifwe didn't at least quickly talk
about uh.
I mean, and you kind of knowthis, but, like a lot of the
people that have been a part ofMaverick or currently a part of
Maverick got their start, youknow, with doing ministry with
you, and so I'd love to talkabout that because I kind of

(01:22:55):
felt like what the beginning ofMaverick was is a display of a
lot of the work in ministry andinput that you put into their
lives the Chandlers, the Dantes,the Aarons.
Even so, maybe just talk aboutjust the influence that you've
had on the younger generationwhen it comes to worship,
leading and just some of yourhopes and desires there.

Speaker 1 (01:23:17):
Yeah, man, I think for me you know the way I came
up, I didn't have a lot of looksright, I just didn't have there
weren't people handing meopportunities.
You know like that and you knowfunny part of my story, you
know, me and Molly came uptogether so like teenage years,
early 20s, both in the sameregion in Georgia, and so we

(01:23:39):
would, you know, be together allthe time he'll come crash, you
know, at the house and we'llwork on music.
All the time He'll come crashat the house We'll work on music
and this and that.
And then what's funny is hejust took off.
He shot off like a rocket andeverybody gave him a look,
everybody, ty, kirk Dietrich, hewas everywhere.

(01:24:00):
Everybody had him featuring onTBN with him and then Kirk took
him to Potter's house so hecould give me that joy.
You know what I mean, thishomie I'm like.
Last week he was on my flow, youknow what I'm saying and like
this dude is soaring, you knowwhat I mean Like he's got the
whole world in his hand, likeeverybody's calling him.
He's doing every youthconference, he is Canton Jones

(01:24:28):
over and you know it was toughfor me because you do battle,
this man wins my turn, type ofthing.
But God, he just slow cooked me.
But I just always remember man,no one really gave me, you know
, no, not anybody.
I probably wasn't worth thelooks, I wasn't ready for them,
I probably wasn't talentedenough.
All those things you know is apart of that.

(01:24:48):
So I'm not saying you know,bump all them.
You know, molly was really,really good.
She was vocally more ready thanI was not a lot of help.
So it's something I just I tookpride in.
I said from the beginning I wasgoing to do.

(01:25:09):
You know if you, if you recallmy first, my first three records
had no A-list features.
You know, the first twofeatured Chad, a female.
You know from my area, lauraWilson.
You know, you know from my area, laura Wilson.
You know you know thesedifferent people, zeke featured

(01:25:32):
Dante, dante, dante, isaiahTempleton.
Dante was a cool story.
Dante actually came by my, thelittle place I was staying in in
Charlotte.
He just wanted me to listen tosomething and then, as he was
leaving or maybe I was inColumbia then I don't remember,
we were in Columbia he justwanted to stop by.
He literally drove up.

(01:25:53):
He just wanted me to hearsomething he was working on, uh,
and actually feature on one ofhis songs, uh uh giants, yeah
yeah, yeah, he brought it.
He brought it to the house and Iwas like y'all see, and so I
sung on it.
Um, he was so excited and thenhe left and I was like I was
I'll sing, and so I sung on it.
And he was so excited and thenhe left and I was like I was
working on the second record, Ibelieve it was.
It was Crossover, crossover,yeah, and I was like you know
what, let me give it a shot.

(01:26:14):
He probably sound good on this.
I was like hey, come back.
And he was like what, and I waslike see how it feels, or
whatever, and he did a great job, you know, um, but I'm not
saying anything that looked likea whatever, you know.
I'm just saying like part ofthat was because, like, I saw
myself in them, like I saw likesomeone on the come up, someone

(01:26:36):
with a gift, someone, and I'mjust like man, well, I got, I
got a record deal, you know, Imean I'm one in a million, you
know, I mean I got, I got ejnumber ain't.
Nobody else in the state ofSouth Carolina can call EJ games
.

Speaker 2 (01:26:49):
That's not a thing.

Speaker 1 (01:26:53):
So it's like man, what God has blessed us with.
I want to be a door opener forothers.
That's literally my name.
The name Travis means bridge.
It literally means that it camefrom someone who would stand at
the bridge and take cold toesand let people cross over.
That's what my name literallyis a bridge crossover.
So for me, like I'm just kind ofliving out who I am in that uh,

(01:27:15):
and I still do it today and atdifferent opportunities.
That's why I gave you.
You know, the kids looks at, uh, whether I can't anymore, but
the young adults looks at fordcity, it's the same, it's the
same thing.
Like man, I got access.
They're going to have me on thestellar stage.
It's like yo, all right, I knowy'all want me to do this song,
y'all want me up there.
You want Kalante, you wantDaryl, cool, cool.
I got a song working at thechurch.

(01:27:37):
As a matter of fact, can Ishare my screen?
I literally did this real quick.
Look at this, this we filmedthis at my church.
It's called tent revival.
You like it?
Yeah, I'll give you three moreminutes.
You know, cool, I want to putthese kids on and I literally
took, you know, the guys from mychurch their first ever red
carpet.
I mean they, you know excitedclothes on, you know taking

(01:27:58):
pictures like and letting themyo, you come do this interview.
Is this a part of?
I think I, just I, to me,that's more satisfying for me to
see other people shine than the, than the hulk of all the space
.
So that's that's really.
That was the only thing behindthe.
You know, those guys that I hadopportunity to be a part of
their life let's talk quicklyabout the book.

Speaker 4 (01:28:18):
Uh, are you praying for the wrong thing?
And I actually have it here?
I don't know it wasn't you.
My sister was looking up yeah,yeah, like, like I love the
title of it, tell me, tell me,like, what's it about, what's
the inspiration behind it,what's the heart yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:28:35):
So the book?
Are you praying for the wrongthing?
Is it very?
Uh?
I mean, it's something I'm veryproud of, very excited about.
It's not a book on prayer, eventhough prayer is in the title.
It's not a book on prayer, eventhough prayer is in the title.
It's actually a book onstewardship and one of the most
valuable lessons that I'velearned, really as a leader.
Another leadership lesson isthat there have been many
seasons in my life that I prayedfor things that I wasn't

(01:28:57):
prepared for, and the Lord justtaught me I could pray for
miracles less if I pray formanagement more.
There's some emergencies thatI've had that were avoidable,
that I stewarded well.
And I think there's three levelsin walking with God, right, I
think the first level is thelove zone, right To be loved by

(01:29:19):
God, and it's something youshould never graduate from.
Hold it to your heart, but alsoknow that he loves everybody
the saint, the sinner, theprostitute, the, the preacher,
it don't matter.
He could love everybody.
Everybody's a child of hisright, so he loved everybody.
Um, the second level that a lotof believers get stuck at is
being used by god right way.
In the bible, god used a ark,he used a donkey, uh.

(01:29:40):
He used a stone, you know across, uh, which tells me you
don't even have to be human tobe used by God, and so that's
not the ultimate.
To be used by God is not theultimate, it's cool, but he'll
use anybody.
And so I think that the greatestzone and this is really what
I'm talking about in the book tograduate to in this
Christianity walk is a trustzone to be trusted by God, to be

(01:30:04):
trusted by God.
I love my cousin.
I'll use a plumber, but then Iget my credit card.
I got to trust you.
I got to trust you, man.
I mean, you got to be like inmy intimate space and as I'm
walking this thing out with God,there are certain places and
certain things, and this is notabout just possession, right,
because you can make money.
Without God you can't.

(01:30:25):
So this is not even about, it'snot about prosperity preaching,
but it is about there arecertain things, certain places,
certain levels that you can onlyaccess with trust.
And my brother taught me one ofthe most valuable lessons.
I bring this up all the time.
Anybody who knows me heard thisstory, because I I say it every

(01:30:48):
, probably once a quarter, um,when he first started working
with me, uh, he was like, uh,you know, a lot of people don't
know this.
What norman?
Another thing that normanbrought to the the space, uh, of
christian music as a disruptorwas like cameras and social
stuff.
That doubt didn't exist beforehim that's at that level.
It didn't.
Nobody walked around withcameras in our space.
I know because I was in it fora long time and I was literally.

(01:31:10):
He was looking at my tenor.
He was like, fam, you just sungin front of 10,000.
You're singing in front of50,000.
And you're about to do a showin front of 800,000 people.
He said, bro, you do knownobody going to believe this.
I'm like what I'm doing it?
No one.
It's like Travis, listen to me,bro.

(01:31:31):
There's no one on the planetthat's going to look your black
self in the face and believethat you're taking in front of
this amount of people.
It's just unheard of.

Speaker 2 (01:31:37):
I'm like we're doing it Like.

Speaker 1 (01:31:38):
Africa.
You know we've been global,we've been doing whatever,
whatever.
And he was like you gotta havea camera and my fruit would tell
like how much that gonna cost.
Right, like I'm already payingmusicians, I'm paying these
singers.
You want to pay somebody?
Answer a few hundred dollars.
Like man, I know I got a.
I got a family and food.
Yeah, I did all these hundredsthat add up and a flight.

(01:31:59):
That's right.
And he was like bro, just trustme, you gotta tell the story
it's gonna take you to another.
You know realm, and it did, um,but in that vein we was having a
conversation one time aboutdoing a video, a music video.
It's like, yeah, we need to dothis, do that, and you don't
know me, you don't mind, youdon't mind swiping that card.
I was like fam, you know, backthen, this wasn't no tribe, this
was green, it wasn't no tribe,it wasn't no extracurricular

(01:32:25):
money coming in.
This was straight, it wasGrease and Jumping Incorporated.
So it's like fam, like dog,they gonna cost man, ain't got
man.
I was like, bro, it ain't thatdeep, it's like it is that deep.
And I'll never forget one of themost valuable lessons I'm going
to tie back to the book.
He said I said, man, you knowhow big Made Away is?

(01:32:49):
I said do you know how big itis, bro?
This is the biggest song of ourgeneration.
Like it's a big record, bro.
You know at the time, like thisis a big, we're talking Take Me
to the King, never would havemade it.
Like, made a way is a bigrecord, bro.
And I ain't got no music video.

(01:33:09):
Nah, I said that, yeah, I thinkyou're missing it.
It's not about what you didwithout the music video.
It's about what you missed bynot having it.
Wow, and that philosophy hasshifted my thinking in such a
way that many times we'recounting the wrong thing.
We're.
We're counting what we wereable to do, we're not counting

(01:33:32):
what was left on the table wowand so, um, it shifted.
So now, when I'm approachingstrategy means I'm like no, no,
no, we got to count what we'llbe missing, not not what we're
spending and not what we gain,but what are you missing out on?
That's the, that's the actualexpense, and so, um, that's what
the book is about is about man.
I don't, I don't want to wastetime praying for things that

(01:33:54):
don't matter to god, things thatthings that aren't, that aren't
important to him.
You know, the bible saysdelight yourself in the lord.
He'll give you the desires ofyour heart.
Um, that does not mean he'llgive you what you want.
It means he'll give you thedesires of your heart.
That does not mean he'll giveyou what you want.
It means he'll give you what towant.

Speaker 2 (01:34:08):
Right.

Speaker 1 (01:34:08):
And there's a lot of frustrated Christians that are
praying for something that Godnever promised.
That's good yeah.

Speaker 3 (01:34:14):
That's good.
Our last question to everybodyis in life in general, what has
been your maverick moment?
It's the moment that defineswho you are, how you got here,
what it's been.
What's been your maverickmoment?

Speaker 1 (01:34:30):
That's a loaded question and it could go several
different places, I think.

Speaker 4 (01:34:35):
I was going to say.
It's a moment that is outsidethe box, where you decided to go
outside the box, you wentagainst the grain, you trusted
God in a way that maybe youhadn't before in the past.
It's like a defining moment.
That was the moment.

Speaker 3 (01:34:48):
Yeah, it's game seven .
You cross over Byron RussellHit it at the elbow.

Speaker 1 (01:34:59):
Oh man, probably this is going to be a curveball, but
probably 2013 at John Hannah'schurch in Chicago.
And what happened was I wrote asong called Intentional in

(01:35:23):
rehearsal, wrote it in rehearsalChan's there, everybody's there
.
We were rehearsing 2013 from mylittle band in Charlotte.
I loved Romans 828.
It's been the scripture that hasmade sense of life to me that
all things work together.
So, no matter what I face, it'sbeen my constant like reminder

(01:35:44):
man, god has to be workingtogether for my good, uh, and so
I always want to do somethingspecial with that.
I remember fred did somethingwith it like long time ago this
is my old friend so I was like,all right, he did something with
that song, I want to dosomething with that song, and I
mean with that verse, I don'tknow what I want to do.
And so I was like, alright, hedid something with that song, I
want to do something with thatsong, I mean with that verse, I
don't know what I want to do.
And so I was just messingaround in rehearsal and just got

(01:36:07):
into this little groove and Ijust literally started singing
it and I'll never forget I sungit and I sung it through and
it's going through iterations, Ithink at first, when I first
wrote it, it was like I don'tthink it was never failing, it
was like never something else.
I don't even know what I'msaying.

(01:36:32):
And then I was in a rehearsalabout to sing at a church,
because we just started singingat our churches and the part I
don't have to worry because thisis working for me came in the
sound check in Baton Rouge for achurch service and literally I
was like you know there andliterally I was like oh man, and
so everywhere we startedthrough that whole year it just
went stupid.
I mean, we flipped every churchthis side of the equator.

(01:36:55):
There were smaller churches,but them folks in the small
churches was having a good time.
They got 150 people.
You know who was flipping themupside down everywhere Me and
Chad Keith.
You know who was flipping themupside down everywhere me and
jay keith.
You know tyrone bell flippingthese churches upside down and
then, um, so I go to chicago,deborah snoopy, hannah, you know
, uh snoopy was there and I hadknown her from this previous

(01:37:15):
deal that I had when I was justtrying to get off the ground.
And she's in the back and, as Ifirst, I've known her at this
point for probably four years,three, three years.
And she's in the back and, as Ifirst, I've known her at this
point for probably four years,three, three years.
And she's in the back and she'slike trap, it's snoopy.
And I was like, oh my god, youfinally meet you in person.
You know, back then, to meet inperson means somebody flew you
to meet them in person.
You didn't just go to meetpeople and you couldn't afford a

(01:37:38):
flight, so it's just like youknow, they flew me here.
I met hers.
I was like yo, snoopy and youknow this is me I was like yo, I
got a song.
It's just like, really, I waslike I got a song.
I'm telling you this is it likeit was one of those like when
smoky wrote uh, my girl for thetemptation, like this is the one
uh, this is it.
Like it's a record, it's a realrecord.

(01:37:59):
I said I want to hear, I'm hearit.
I said I'm going to do it today.
I didn't have it recorded.
We're literally.
Anybody could have stole thissong.
We're just going around justsinging it Everywhere.
So, yeah, no, it ain'tregistered to be in my, it ain't
nothing.
I'm just out here.
No protection, no protection.
I First of all I thought Johnhad, because the church I was

(01:38:20):
going to was small churches.
This is when he worked withradio.
You remember when he had aradio station.
So he did a radio interviewwith me.
He was like I like this kid,let's bring him up here, yeah.
So I literally thought it wasgoing to be bro.
I took four, I think I took fourboxes and there were 30 CD
boxes, that's 120 CDs.
It was 15,000 people, I mean,and four services, jam-packed

(01:38:43):
arena.
I mean.
It was at that time it was thelargest church I had ever been
in, Most folks I ever seen.
So I go up, we hit the song,Dumped the place.
John had to come back out.
He's like yo come here.
Hey, hey, yo come here.
Did y'all hear what he justsaid?
He just said in his ad-libshe's been doing it for a long
time.
I ain't never heard nobody saythat before.

(01:39:04):
He just said he's been doing.
Say that again.
He's been doing it for a longtime.
Say that again.
Oh my god, singing it again.
Church flip, we get to the back.
He's laughing like what youbrought?
How many cities he's dying.
Like you know he'll clap.
There's like we're just allright.
He's like bro, you don't knowwhat church you're at, they're
going to eat these CDs up.
So and this is my old, old,like stressing out CD or

(01:39:26):
something like that.
So it's like, well, I'm justgoing to have one box per
service, they're going to eatthem up, they're going to be
going.
So every service they sold outbefore the service was dismissed
they just ran out of, got it.
Yo, that's crazy.
Go home, record it i'ma.
I'ma push it for you pro bonowow snoopy, that's what she told
me wow I go home, record it inthe closet.

(01:39:48):
Uh, literally put a microphonein the closet, record
intentional, um.
And then I say, well, here isit, unmixed anything.
She got it.
I didn't know that she washired by rca, I had no clue,
didn Didn't know she was doingwork for them on the side.
So I think his name was Gio.
Yeah, gio.
So she was like Gio Joseph,y'all gotta hear this.

(01:40:09):
She interrupted someone else'smeeting.
It was another artist's meeting.
I know the name, I'll telly'all later.

Speaker 3 (01:40:14):
She interrupted the meeting no no, no, no, no.

Speaker 1 (01:40:18):
That don't matter, Folks, the whole grudges, but
she interrupted the meeting.
I don't know, but I ain'ttrying to get them enemies.
She interrupted the meeting,played the record and Gio said
do whatever it take to get themhere and they flew me to New
York.
The rest is history.
So that was a moment Wow, andwho was your attorney on that?
Well, you came the next year.

(01:40:40):
No, you came't do a good job,no you can't do a good job.

Speaker 3 (01:40:42):
He didn't do a good job.
Whoever he was, he's a good man.
Whoever his attorney was sucked.
I seen that deal.

Speaker 2 (01:40:49):
I don't think I did the deal.

Speaker 1 (01:40:50):
You didn't do the deal.
I know you didn't do the deal,but get out of there, but it was
a season.
It is what it is.

Speaker 4 (01:40:58):
Yeah, that's good.

Speaker 2 (01:41:04):
We, yeah, that's good , we love that.
So I want to talk a little bitabout what I heard on my speaker
when someone sent me a link andsaid hey, travis is working on
this.
You know, just listen ahead ofthe meeting and I was okay, I'll
do it, you know.
So I'm like making my coffee aswhat were you?
Expecting to hear.
I thought it was gonna be a bigold worship album honestly I
did so I'm making my coffee andI'm ready to go in like okay,
well, this will be nice and thebeat dropped and the guitar and

(01:41:26):
this americana rootsy and I saidwait what
I grabbed my phone, I'm likewhat is I texted?
I was like this is different.
And from that moment I was likeI mean, I'm joining the meeting
, I'm rolling my sleeves up,finding my little marketing hat

(01:41:46):
and just excited about it.
So talk about the album justbecause I think it's going to be
impactful, not becauseeveryone's going to be singing
it on Sunday morning, becauseit's not that type of album, but
it is such an artisticexpression that is refreshing
and new and real and excellent.
It is excellent.
So I'm just hyping it, but gonah we'll leave some suspense.

Speaker 1 (01:42:09):
I won't say the album title.
We'll maybe do like a somethinga reveal, yeah, reveal.
We gotta get back to the revealdays.
Right, everything's too easy.
Now we gotta read it's just ablurry, yeah, nah, we got a
reveal um, but no man, I I wasjust ready to to start cooking
again and, uh, actually, the thethe biggest help for this
record, honestly, is sitting tomy right.

(01:42:30):
Uh, it was jj.
He was like uh, hey man, I knowyou, you think about doing some
more music, what do you thinkabout, you know, doing some kind
of off the wall collaborations?
And I'll never forget myresponse to him was uh, hey, man
, if I have to carry the room, Idon't want to be in it.
Right, it's not worth it for meIf I'm going, if I'm, unless
I'm specifically trying to helppeople learn how to write.

(01:42:51):
But when we talk about like myactual material, I'm more
efficient in my zone.
But if you could put me aroundpeople who are going to
challenge me, me, or can add andhe just kind of had a smirk, it
was like there's some guys outthere watch this there's some
guys out there that get that kid, you know.
And I was like, all right, well,you know, surprise me, let's go

(01:43:11):
.
It was like you willing to goto that field.
I was like, yeah, let's do it.
So went, did a few rights andthen, uh, one guy in particular,
man, we just man, we juststruck fire the very first
session.
It was like oh snap, what wasthat?
And then, but we're going in acertain direction.
Uh was the first record was wasa little more worship, so it's

(01:43:33):
headed on the direction.
And then I literally, um,things come to me and dream
sometime and I literally justkind of had a dream and I really
felt like the Lord was like,hey, I don't like, and I had to
have permission because it's notwho I naturally am.
Right, my nature is like I am.
I'm a.
You know how people be like I'mfrom the church, but I ain't

(01:43:54):
proud of it.
Nah, and you know how somepeople wear the hood on their
sleeve.
I'm from east side dog, likethat's how I am about church.
I'm from church dog.
Like I'm proud, like I ain't.
I don't shy away from it, I'llstraight, speak it to us right
here on map, on the mic, andy'all just keep up or join me, I
don't care.
This is what it is like.
I'm charismatic and I am proudof my upbringing, I'm proud of

(01:44:16):
god, I'm proud of the church andI ain't got no problem with
that.
So, musicallyically, that's mylane.
I'm like you know who you'regoing to get Preaching, that's
my lane, you know who you'regoing to get.
And so God had to give mepermission to do something
different.
Not that I was, I wasn't evenseeking it, bro.
It was literally like he was.
Just like.
I want you to make a record forthe person who may not come to

(01:44:38):
church.
And I was like what come tochurch now I'm like what I ain't
even, you know, like I, youknow that ain't.
That's not like natural, likeI'm cool and I can adjust and I
can assimilate and if I'm in anenvironment you know I could, I
could be all things to reachanybody.
But like musically, that'snever been and I'm not one to
like try to make non-christianmusic for the sake of being cool

(01:44:59):
.
I feel very cool as a christian.
I don't need anything to buildmy confidence, so I don't need
that.
I don't need you know.
So for me it was just like Godwas like nah, and this is the
way I felt, like he phrased it,and this is what I took back to
the studio.
Like, make a record for thelistener's brother who won't
come to church, and so that'swhat the album is and that's why

(01:45:21):
it has that tone.
And then we went back and, kindof, we found this, this gritty
uh thing, and we was like youknow what, let's just keep the,
let's keep the album like this.
And so the record feels verygritty, very um, very old and
modern at the same time, whichis kind of cool, um, but every
one of them has very cool uhmessaging.

(01:45:42):
Ultimately and I had thisconversation with uh, with old
girl yesterday, but she wassaying, ultimately it still is
gospel, because it is the gospel, so I'm still, it's still
reaching people.
I was just very again.
I felt this mission, this burdenfrom god.
I'm this is the first time I'mnot dead in your face with jesus
and the blood and the holyghost.

(01:46:03):
Every single song.
That's right.
I'm not.
It's not like.
It's not like dead on.
That's coming too, though.
I want to do a live worshiprecord, so I I ain't lost my
edge for anybody who who wantedlike, did we lose them?
No, I'll sit here, but this isliterally a missional record.
It's outreach and I think it'sgoing to be effective.
I'm excited about it.
I'm really excited.
Outreach and I think it's goingto be effective.
I'm excited about it.
I'm really excited about it.

Speaker 4 (01:46:23):
That's definitely.
It's fresh, yeah, for sure.

Speaker 3 (01:46:27):
Well, ladies and gentlemen, this has been
Mavericks on the Mic.
We've had the Grammy Awardnominated.
We've had the pastor.
Extraordinaire leadership,extraordinaire author my brother
, your favorite worship leaderis worship leader.
Your favorite worship leader isworship leader.
Your favorite worship leader isworship leader Travis Green.
You don't want to miss thisepisode.
You know where to find us.

(01:46:48):
Check it out on Travels,youtube, mav City Music
Instagram.
We're going to do a collab poston this one, though, so it'll
be at TravisGreentv.
No dot and likely for over cityyou.

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