July 15, 2025 • 27 mins
Can high-tech glasses help people with Parkinson’s stay independent for longer? Professor Rory O’Connor and physiotherapist Caroline Gill explore the promise of augmented reality in rehabilitation—offering patients fewer hospital visits and more support at home.
Views and experiences shared in this podcast belong to the individuals and do not constitute medical advice. For medical advice please contact your pharmacist, GP or dial 111. In an emergency please dial 999.
This podcast was recorded and produced by Under the Mast– creative audio productions and was presented by Caroline Verdon
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:07):
Medical breakthroughs,the research journey.
Hello and welcome.
I'm your host, Caroline Burden,and you are about to join me on
a journey into the fascinatingworld of medical breakthroughs,
but not just any breakthroughs.
We are diving into thepersonal stories, the setbacks.
(00:30):
That you will not believe.
This moment behind the cutting edgeresearch happening right here at
Leeds Teaching Hospitals NHS Trust.
Coming up in this episode, what
we are finding is that people'swalking improve during the time
that they're wearing their headsets.
And then for a. Variable periodafterwards, so they might be able to
(00:51):
lend it to the shop independently andback again in that period of time.
We're very keen to look intothis more with further research.
This is an extraordinarygadget that involves augmented
reality, helping patients with.
Parkinson's.
I'm joined by Professor RoryO'Connor and Caroline Gill.
Caroline Gill is a researchphysiotherapist, and Rory is a Charter
(01:14):
House professor of Rehabilitationmedicine and the head of the
Academic Department of RehabilitationMedicine at the University of Leeds.
He's also the deputy director ofthe Lead Institute of Rheumatic
and Musculoskeletal Medicine.
So Parkinson's is a. The brain.
It affects about 45,000people in the UK today.
(01:36):
So that's about 2000 peoplein the city of Leeds.
It tends to affect older people ingeneral, although it can start, uh, in
children and many of the people who havebeen involved in our research, uh, apart.
(01:59):
Meaning that their walking freezeswhen they're trying to take a step.
What can also affect our balance,it can close falls and ultimately,
uh, for a small number of people,it can actually result in a type.
When you talk about the body freezingin terms of mobility, when somebody
(02:20):
tries to to take a step, whatactually happens to that person?
They're trying to carry on and,and, and do just, you know,
one foot in front of the other.
What, what is going on?
When people take a step andthey're walking, they get into a
flow, they walk in quite happily.
What often can happen with peoplewith Parkinson's, they might have
(02:43):
a sort obstacle place in frontto limb, come across a chair.
They might come across a doorway andfor some reason, uh, that interrupts
that flow and they suddenly stop.
Is very frustrating for that person.
Um, and it can take a little bitof time, uh, seconds, hopefully
(03:03):
usually for them to get going again.
And they might need a little bit ofhelp, uh, to do that, to get over that
freezing episode and start walking again.
They have.
And they, they feel frozen.
Hence the term freezing,um, when they're walking.
(03:26):
Uh, incredibly frustrating forthat person, that individual.
And
is it progressive?
The condition of Parkinson'sis progressive condition.
Yes.
It's,
and so presumably then those moments of,of freezing will get worse and worse.
(03:50):
Feature of Parkinson's, and theydo get more and more frequent.
And that's what we've seenin people with Parkinson's.
Those episodes do get more frequent.
For some people it will progress.
And there are people, there arepeople who will end up helping,
being able to walk at all.
Mm-hmm.
And sometimes not even able to bed.
(04:13):
So it's really, reallyimportant that keep mobile.
And presumably then in, in yourrole, Caroline, that must be a real
challenge to get people moving when forwhatever reason there's that disconnect
between the brain and the body.
(04:35):
I think, uh, with people who are at thatpoint, that is very challenging indeed.
What I found while workingwith people with that.
Unfortunately, some people, the, the lackof motivation is part of the condition.
(04:55):
So we need to see people as soon as,as almost as soon as they're diagnosed
with Parkinson's, to give that adviceand that education about movement and
about exercise and keeping moving.
Um, there is a number of studies havebeen done that are now showing exercise.
(05:19):
You can do for Parkinson's and to maintainthe mobility that you have and in some
cases improve the mobility that you have.
Um, and that is something that I feelvery proud to be a part of as a physio,
somebody that's involved in movementand exercise and keeping people moving.
(05:42):
There are challenges as you, justto relate to what you're saying, um,
but largely when, when people cometo see me, they have that motivation
and they wanna do work as it were,and they wanna help themselves.
So, so tell me a little bit thenabout, um, this body of research
that has been happening at Leeds.
(06:05):
We've been doing what's called afeasibility study, or as I have been
explaining it, putting the feelersout, seeing how people feel about
using these augmented reality headsets.
Uh, it's uh, come about from a companycalled a Stroll with three Ls, and
they have developed software to,specifically with people with Parkinson's
(06:29):
in mind in the initial setting.
Set up, uh, particularly for people whohave that freezing when they're walking.
We've been doing a study on a, a, agroup of people with Parkinson's, uh,
looking at if they're able to use theseheadsets at home, giving them a number
(06:49):
of exercises to do in their own homeand seeing how they feel about it.
Which at the moment we've just finishedthe data collection and what we're finding
is actually making a difference in theirwalking, which is very pleasing for us.
(07:12):
So, Rory, tell me a littlebit about STROLL and, and
the relationship with them.
Sure.
Well, Leeds has the longestestablished rehabilitation research.
As a rehabilitation research center, wewere set up in 1974 by my predecessor,
(07:33):
professor Anne Chamberlain, ob, and whatshe wanted to do was to move away from the
traditional medical research model wherepeople were given medications in order
to see if that would help the condition.
There is no treatment for Parkinson'sthat stops us getting worse, or that
(07:57):
even reverses other than exercise.
So all of the, the medications andthe drugs, which unfortunately 99%
of the research into Parkinson's islooked at, have no effect whatsoever on
stopping the Parkinson's getting worse.
The help, and they might make you feel abit better temporarily, but actually it's
(08:22):
not the underlying problem in your brain.
So when I first heard about thistechnology, which is being developed,
I thought, well, we're the.
Here in Leeds to be able to research this.
We unfortunately have lots of peopleliving with Parkinson's in the city.
(08:43):
Um, but we also have thefacilities and to be able to,
to do the research here to prove
and, uh, we've been asking
rehabilitation.
(09:04):
A therapy outpatient, uh, facility,providing them with the, the
training and the equipment, andthen supervising their work at
home, uh, over six weeks at a time.
Now you talk about, um, theequipment and, and the headset.
It feels very space age.
(09:25):
Talk us through what, um, what theheadset is, what it does, and the sort
of the, the thought process behind it.
So the, the founder of Stroll, um,is a man whose father has Parkinson's
involved.
(09:46):
Filming and, and, and visual arts.
And he went with his dad one dayto a physiotherapy session where
they provide us, uh, in, with whatis currently the gold standard for
exercise in, in Parkinson's, whichis the technique called queuing.
And that was done in thegym and his dad got better.
(10:08):
On the way home.
Um, Tom felt that there must bea better way of providing that,
but also providing more of it.
Because we know about all exerciseand all rehabilitation, the greater
the dose of rehabilitation you cangive someone, the better they become
and the longer the effect are.
So what is Queing is giving people.
(10:32):
A, to be able to do something.
So the freezing that Caroline mentionedearlier can be overcome if, when somebody
freezes be, provide them with a queue.
And the common example that weuse when someone's, uh, walking
is affected by Parkinson.
Someone walks beside them andjust whispers in their ear.
(10:53):
Big steps, big steps.
That then allows that personto walk in a much more natural
way and, uh, avoid freezing.
That's fascinating that, thatmakes a difference and sort of
jolts the brain and the, the bodyto sort of work better together.
So what does it look like thenwhen you put a headset on?
(11:16):
What can the patient see?
So
the headsets.
We, they call glasses, headsets.
They, they sort of fit on your heada little bit like a bike helmet,
but without the top part completely.
And they have, uh, glasses in front ofyour face, basically covering your eyes.
Um, and with augmented reality,you can still see the world
(11:42):
around you, the real world aroundyou, um, with computer images.
So you may see in some of thegames that we have, we have
what again called hot buttons.
So you'll see big round buttonsin front of you in a grid.
(12:04):
Um, you'll see one of themare fun games, you might say.
Uh, there will be little mole hillson the floor and little moles will
pop out and react as the queuefor you to walk towards the moles.
Um, they're, they're quitebright visually, lovely colors.
(12:28):
They're very fresh and clean images.
Uh, the technology has come on along way, even in the two years that
we've been working on the study.
Um, the difference between.
This computer generated world asopposed to augmented reality where you
(12:51):
still can't see the world around you.
People who've tried both, theysay that augmented reality,
you feel a bit more grounded.
There's, you're less likelyto feel, um, nauseated.
You know that travel sickness kind offeeling, vertigo kind of feelings, that's
less likely to happen with augmentedreality, which is an onus for us.
(13:15):
But all the games are geared around whatRory was saying about providing a cue.
So there are visual things on the flooror in front of you to reach towards or
walk towards to give that brain thatprompt to take a step forward or reach.
(13:36):
The other thing that it does is, um,it provides audible cues as well, so.
Noises as well, um, related tothe, the game and in action.
And so is the idea behind it that,um, they would be used as almost at
home physio sessions or is it thatyou could, you know, if you are
(13:59):
trying to walk to the shops, youcould put it on and it would help you
with your cues to walk in real time.
What's the idea
at present?
The headsets are definitely used as games.
They're used as physiotherapy based games.
Physiotherapists havehelped design the games.
They're very much based on traditionaltype of physiotherapy games,
(14:25):
and they are, uh, to be used inconjunction with or in physiotherapy.
The games are dynamic, they, they canbe changed, the levels can be changed.
So you can get more of, um, almostlike a fitness workout, get your
heart and lungs working a bit harder.
(14:45):
Um, and that is one of the massivebenefits of using the headsets.
The idea is also thereare apps that stroll.
That a physiotherapist or anoccupational therapist might
provide in a therapy session.
(15:06):
So, uh, placing lines on the floor, wemight traditionally place tape or walking
sticks or something in a, in a series infront of a person to give them something
to step over, and that gives that visualcue so the headsets can provide that.
But in a, in a, um, so yousee, you can see lines on the.
(15:30):
At present, it's not possible to useit, uh, for walking outdoors to the
shops, but that is absolutely the hope.
That's what we're aiming for, sopeople can get out and do their normal
activities, things that they may havebeen afraid to do or a bit wary of
doing because they may be worriedabout having a freezing episode and
(15:54):
wear wherever.
Freedom and that independenceto move again and mental.
And do you get any data, um, at thetime, you know, from when patients
are at home playing one of the gamesto, to do that sort of rehab, do you
get any information on how that'sgone or how successful that's been?
(16:19):
We do.
So I can log into a remoteprogram from wherever I'm working.
And I can see if therepeople who've been headset.
(16:41):
Let them know that this is, uh, importantfor us for this study, and important
for us to see how they're getting off.
So yes, we do.
We get a lot ofinformation from the games.
We know when they've playedthem, how long they've played
them for, uh, with their games.
We also get their scores.
So for example, there's abasketball game basket scored.
(17:07):
Obviously means that I can seeif they're improving as well.
Um, when with the study I, I'll have aweekly telephone call with participants
and we chat about whether they'regonna at the good level for them.
So they might say, oh, I'mdoing quite well and I feel
like everything's going nicely.
And we discuss whether to increase thedifficulty of the games to make it a.
(17:35):
And the length of time thatthey played them for as well.
So I can do all of thatremotely and change all of
that from wherever I'm working
now.
I watched a video, um, of a gentlemanusing one of the headsets where, um,
when he put the headset on, he couldsee the room in front of him and
there were the lines on the floor.
Now, before he put the headset on, itwas clear that he was struggling to walk,
(17:58):
he was struggling to lift his feet up.
There was an element of sort of shuffling.
And then he put the headset on and it wasalmost like watching a different person.
It looked like magic, that somebodycan, can have such a, a big
difference with what seeminglyis a, a small in intervention.
(18:20):
Um, how does it work whenthe headset comes off?
Are there any lasting effectsfrom having, you know, done
that, having, having used it?
The video that you sawwas truly remarkable.
Um, person that was videoed was the suchwonderful change to see in their walking.
(18:43):
What we're finding is, and from whatpeople are telling us, is that people's
walking are improved during the timethat they're wearing the, and then for a.
Period afterwards, and thatcould be 10 minutes to an hour.
Um, at the moment we haven't officiallymeasured it, so we're not entirely
sure, but we call that a carryover.
(19:06):
So the carryover from wearing theheadset, we know that there is some,
so, but we're not sure how long for,and that might vary person to person.
The implications ofthough, so what might mean.
Play on the headset for 10 or 15 minutes.
They might have then a carryover oran improvement in their walking for a
(19:30):
certain period of time, after, which thenallows them to go and do, um, a normal
activity in that period afterwards.
So they might be able to then nip tothe shop independently and back again.
A facility and stroll and peoplewith Parkinson's are very keen to
(19:54):
look into that and explore research
it.
I mean, it, it's soundshugely transformative.
Well, it is, and rehabilitation hasalways relied on that carry effect,
irrespective whatever condition meansthat we're to treat, and the fact
(20:15):
that we can now provide people with.
A rehabilitation in an environmentthat they're familiar with in their
own home at a time that suits themso they're not tied to our timetables
and our schedules here within the NHS.
It just opens up huge newpossibilities, obviously, for
(20:36):
people with Parkinson's because.
We're working with at the moment, butwe could easily see how this technology
could be used for someone who'srecovering from a stroke, from a brain
injury, uh, from cancer, from somethingaffecting the spine, from multiple
sclerosis, from many, many conditions,which have huge amount of to benefit.
(21:05):
Itself.
What's the process now between, youknow, there are a select number of
people who are able to be on this trial?
What's the process between this and it,getting a green light and potentially
being a, a standard form of therapy?
We're going through the process, um, ofwhat's called getting ethical permission
(21:29):
to go ahead and invite more peopleto take part in a much bigger study.
We're hoping to be, to start within thenext few months and we be inviting up to
50 people in to take part in the project.
And there are threeother N Hs hospitals in.
Will be, uh, partnering with us on that.
(21:51):
We'll be leading it.
Um, what we hope is that, um, thistrial will show that it's beneficial
to the people involved, but we're alsocollecting information on how expensive
it is to be able to use this technology.
(22:11):
I'm hoping that it'll be lessexpensive and better for people.
Current systems we're usingtreatments which, and then we'd be
able to put together a proposal.
We organization nice people,
(22:32):
medications and technologiesfor use within the NHS.
Other hospitals around the UKwill be able to, um, buy and use
this technology, uh, for peopleliving within their own regions.
Wow.
I mean, the difference that thiscould have, as you say, is it could
(22:53):
branch out to different patients.
Suffering with differentthings could be huge.
We hear a lot at the moment about, youknow, waiting times and cues for gps
and there's, you know, a bit feeling of.
Oh, it's all doom and gloom.
And then you hear work like thisthat's going on and it makes you
(23:13):
feel really positive about whatthe, the future can, can look like.
It is really positive, and I thinkthis allows people to take control of
their own health and recovery as well.
Uh, this allows you to, todo your rehabilitation at a.
(23:37):
Like Caroline to do the, the moresophisticated, complicated face-to-face
activities, uh, that need to be done.
And maybe some of the more routine,more straightforward rehabilitation
can be delivered, uh, in this way.
So.
E, especially if you begin to thinkabout things that are just on the
(23:59):
market now, you know, we have lots ofvirtual reality headsets and you hear
about, you know, the Google glasses andall the rest of them, and you think,
well actually, if this could over timetransform into something like that,
potentially it could be somethingthat somebody just buys from the shop.
Potentially, I mean, we're really luckyin that we get the, uh, augmented reality
(24:20):
headsets that aren't available to buy yet.
Um, uh, we and, uh, people who'll bejoining us in the study in the next few
months, we, we'll get a sneak previewof what, um, augment reality is actually
gonna look like in two, three years time.
(24:41):
Um, I think there's no reason whypeople should be able to access
this in, in a, in a freer way.
Um, you know, people can take outa gym subscription, people can,
uh, watch your wicks on television.
Uh, this is just another way of helpingyourself to stay well and healthy.
(25:03):
I think.
Very
results.
I think what's also important to sayis that we also have been gathering
a bit of feedback from the peoplewho have been using the glasses.
(25:25):
And some of the themes that arecoming out are that the glasses
are enjoyable to use, that they'reinteresting, they're different to the
traditional physiotherapy exercises.
It's very encouraging.
Um, you get.
(25:47):
It hasn't all been.
Powering us forward to continue with thisbecause people have been enjoying and
using it, and it's a motivating factor forpeople to get moving, which we know helps.
(26:10):
Yeah.
And, and makes, you know,such a difference as well.
And it's so good that, that, thatelement has been thought about.
It isn't, it doesn't sound to melike it's just an inverted commas,
just practical, you know, it hasthe other positive benefits as well.
Yeah.
And if you want to find out anymore details, you can find more
(26:31):
information in our show notescoming up on our next episode.
Women in certain cultures,they may not feel empowered to
ask a man to genetic kidney.
We see commonly in a woman who's noteconomically active, who's uneducated.
They don't feel empowered toask a kidney from somebody who's
(26:53):
working and economically active.
We also see parents incertain cultures not
comfortable asking their children,and we'll hear more from Dr.
DACA in our next episode.
He's a consultant, nephrologist andtransplant physician at Leeds Teaching
Hospitals NHS Trust, and he's workingon a research project that looks into
why some people choose not to havekidney transplants, even though it
(27:16):
might be the best option for them.
Medical breakthroughs.
The research journey is anunder the mask audio production.
Medical breakthroughs,the research journey.
Hello and welcome.
I'm your host, Caroline Burden,and you are about to join me on
a journey into the fascinatingworld of medical breakthroughs,
but not just any breakthroughs.
We are diving into thepersonal stories, the setbacks.
(00:30):
That you will not believe.
This moment behind the cutting edgeresearch happening right here at
Leeds Teaching Hospitals NHS Trust.
Coming up in this episode, what
we are finding is that people'swalking improve during the time
that they're wearing their headsets.
And then for a. Variable periodafterwards, so they might be able to
(00:51):
lend it to the shop independently andback again in that period of time.
We're very keen to look intothis more with further research.
This is an extraordinarygadget that involves augmented
reality, helping patients with.
Parkinson's.
I'm joined by Professor RoryO'Connor and Caroline Gill.
Caroline Gill is a researchphysiotherapist, and Rory is a Charter
(01:14):
House professor of Rehabilitationmedicine and the head of the
Academic Department of RehabilitationMedicine at the University of Leeds.
He's also the deputy director ofthe Lead Institute of Rheumatic
and Musculoskeletal Medicine.
So Parkinson's is a. The brain.
It affects about 45,000people in the UK today.
(01:36):
So that's about 2000 peoplein the city of Leeds.
It tends to affect older people ingeneral, although it can start, uh, in
children and many of the people who havebeen involved in our research, uh, apart.
(01:59):
Meaning that their walking freezeswhen they're trying to take a step.
What can also affect our balance,it can close falls and ultimately,
uh, for a small number of people,it can actually result in a type.
When you talk about the body freezingin terms of mobility, when somebody
(02:20):
tries to to take a step, whatactually happens to that person?
They're trying to carry on and,and, and do just, you know,
one foot in front of the other.
What, what is going on?
When people take a step andthey're walking, they get into a
flow, they walk in quite happily.
What often can happen with peoplewith Parkinson's, they might have
(02:43):
a sort obstacle place in frontto limb, come across a chair.
They might come across a doorway andfor some reason, uh, that interrupts
that flow and they suddenly stop.
Is very frustrating for that person.
Um, and it can take a little bitof time, uh, seconds, hopefully
(03:03):
usually for them to get going again.
And they might need a little bit ofhelp, uh, to do that, to get over that
freezing episode and start walking again.
They have.
And they, they feel frozen.
Hence the term freezing,um, when they're walking.
(03:26):
Uh, incredibly frustrating forthat person, that individual.
And
is it progressive?
The condition of Parkinson'sis progressive condition.
Yes.
It's,
and so presumably then those moments of,of freezing will get worse and worse.
(03:50):
Feature of Parkinson's, and theydo get more and more frequent.
And that's what we've seenin people with Parkinson's.
Those episodes do get more frequent.
For some people it will progress.
And there are people, there arepeople who will end up helping,
being able to walk at all.
Mm-hmm.
And sometimes not even able to bed.
(04:13):
So it's really, reallyimportant that keep mobile.
And presumably then in, in yourrole, Caroline, that must be a real
challenge to get people moving when forwhatever reason there's that disconnect
between the brain and the body.
(04:35):
I think, uh, with people who are at thatpoint, that is very challenging indeed.
What I found while workingwith people with that.
Unfortunately, some people, the, the lackof motivation is part of the condition.
(04:55):
So we need to see people as soon as,as almost as soon as they're diagnosed
with Parkinson's, to give that adviceand that education about movement and
about exercise and keeping moving.
Um, there is a number of studies havebeen done that are now showing exercise.
(05:19):
You can do for Parkinson's and to maintainthe mobility that you have and in some
cases improve the mobility that you have.
Um, and that is something that I feelvery proud to be a part of as a physio,
somebody that's involved in movementand exercise and keeping people moving.
(05:42):
There are challenges as you, justto relate to what you're saying, um,
but largely when, when people cometo see me, they have that motivation
and they wanna do work as it were,and they wanna help themselves.
So, so tell me a little bit thenabout, um, this body of research
that has been happening at Leeds.
(06:05):
We've been doing what's called afeasibility study, or as I have been
explaining it, putting the feelersout, seeing how people feel about
using these augmented reality headsets.
Uh, it's uh, come about from a companycalled a Stroll with three Ls, and
they have developed software to,specifically with people with Parkinson's
(06:29):
in mind in the initial setting.
Set up, uh, particularly for people whohave that freezing when they're walking.
We've been doing a study on a, a, agroup of people with Parkinson's, uh,
looking at if they're able to use theseheadsets at home, giving them a number
(06:49):
of exercises to do in their own homeand seeing how they feel about it.
Which at the moment we've just finishedthe data collection and what we're finding
is actually making a difference in theirwalking, which is very pleasing for us.
(07:12):
So, Rory, tell me a littlebit about STROLL and, and
the relationship with them.
Sure.
Well, Leeds has the longestestablished rehabilitation research.
As a rehabilitation research center, wewere set up in 1974 by my predecessor,
(07:33):
professor Anne Chamberlain, ob, and whatshe wanted to do was to move away from the
traditional medical research model wherepeople were given medications in order
to see if that would help the condition.
There is no treatment for Parkinson'sthat stops us getting worse, or that
(07:57):
even reverses other than exercise.
So all of the, the medications andthe drugs, which unfortunately 99%
of the research into Parkinson's islooked at, have no effect whatsoever on
stopping the Parkinson's getting worse.
The help, and they might make you feel abit better temporarily, but actually it's
(08:22):
not the underlying problem in your brain.
So when I first heard about thistechnology, which is being developed,
I thought, well, we're the.
Here in Leeds to be able to research this.
We unfortunately have lots of peopleliving with Parkinson's in the city.
(08:43):
Um, but we also have thefacilities and to be able to,
to do the research here to prove
and, uh, we've been asking
rehabilitation.
(09:04):
A therapy outpatient, uh, facility,providing them with the, the
training and the equipment, andthen supervising their work at
home, uh, over six weeks at a time.
Now you talk about, um, theequipment and, and the headset.
It feels very space age.
(09:25):
Talk us through what, um, what theheadset is, what it does, and the sort
of the, the thought process behind it.
So the, the founder of Stroll, um,is a man whose father has Parkinson's
involved.
(09:46):
Filming and, and, and visual arts.
And he went with his dad one dayto a physiotherapy session where
they provide us, uh, in, with whatis currently the gold standard for
exercise in, in Parkinson's, whichis the technique called queuing.
And that was done in thegym and his dad got better.
(10:08):
On the way home.
Um, Tom felt that there must bea better way of providing that,
but also providing more of it.
Because we know about all exerciseand all rehabilitation, the greater
the dose of rehabilitation you cangive someone, the better they become
and the longer the effect are.
So what is Queing is giving people.
(10:32):
A, to be able to do something.
So the freezing that Caroline mentionedearlier can be overcome if, when somebody
freezes be, provide them with a queue.
And the common example that weuse when someone's, uh, walking
is affected by Parkinson.
Someone walks beside them andjust whispers in their ear.
(10:53):
Big steps, big steps.
That then allows that personto walk in a much more natural
way and, uh, avoid freezing.
That's fascinating that, thatmakes a difference and sort of
jolts the brain and the, the bodyto sort of work better together.
So what does it look like thenwhen you put a headset on?
(11:16):
What can the patient see?
So
the headsets.
We, they call glasses, headsets.
They, they sort of fit on your heada little bit like a bike helmet,
but without the top part completely.
And they have, uh, glasses in front ofyour face, basically covering your eyes.
Um, and with augmented reality,you can still see the world
(11:42):
around you, the real world aroundyou, um, with computer images.
So you may see in some of thegames that we have, we have
what again called hot buttons.
So you'll see big round buttonsin front of you in a grid.
(12:04):
Um, you'll see one of themare fun games, you might say.
Uh, there will be little mole hillson the floor and little moles will
pop out and react as the queuefor you to walk towards the moles.
Um, they're, they're quitebright visually, lovely colors.
(12:28):
They're very fresh and clean images.
Uh, the technology has come on along way, even in the two years that
we've been working on the study.
Um, the difference between.
This computer generated world asopposed to augmented reality where you
(12:51):
still can't see the world around you.
People who've tried both, theysay that augmented reality,
you feel a bit more grounded.
There's, you're less likelyto feel, um, nauseated.
You know that travel sickness kind offeeling, vertigo kind of feelings, that's
less likely to happen with augmentedreality, which is an onus for us.
(13:15):
But all the games are geared around whatRory was saying about providing a cue.
So there are visual things on the flooror in front of you to reach towards or
walk towards to give that brain thatprompt to take a step forward or reach.
(13:36):
The other thing that it does is, um,it provides audible cues as well, so.
Noises as well, um, related tothe, the game and in action.
And so is the idea behind it that,um, they would be used as almost at
home physio sessions or is it thatyou could, you know, if you are
(13:59):
trying to walk to the shops, youcould put it on and it would help you
with your cues to walk in real time.
What's the idea
at present?
The headsets are definitely used as games.
They're used as physiotherapy based games.
Physiotherapists havehelped design the games.
They're very much based on traditionaltype of physiotherapy games,
(14:25):
and they are, uh, to be used inconjunction with or in physiotherapy.
The games are dynamic, they, they canbe changed, the levels can be changed.
So you can get more of, um, almostlike a fitness workout, get your
heart and lungs working a bit harder.
(14:45):
Um, and that is one of the massivebenefits of using the headsets.
The idea is also thereare apps that stroll.
That a physiotherapist or anoccupational therapist might
provide in a therapy session.
(15:06):
So, uh, placing lines on the floor, wemight traditionally place tape or walking
sticks or something in a, in a series infront of a person to give them something
to step over, and that gives that visualcue so the headsets can provide that.
But in a, in a, um, so yousee, you can see lines on the.
(15:30):
At present, it's not possible to useit, uh, for walking outdoors to the
shops, but that is absolutely the hope.
That's what we're aiming for, sopeople can get out and do their normal
activities, things that they may havebeen afraid to do or a bit wary of
doing because they may be worriedabout having a freezing episode and
(15:54):
wear wherever.
Freedom and that independenceto move again and mental.
And do you get any data, um, at thetime, you know, from when patients
are at home playing one of the gamesto, to do that sort of rehab, do you
get any information on how that'sgone or how successful that's been?
(16:19):
We do.
So I can log into a remoteprogram from wherever I'm working.
And I can see if therepeople who've been headset.
(16:41):
Let them know that this is, uh, importantfor us for this study, and important
for us to see how they're getting off.
So yes, we do.
We get a lot ofinformation from the games.
We know when they've playedthem, how long they've played
them for, uh, with their games.
We also get their scores.
So for example, there's abasketball game basket scored.
(17:07):
Obviously means that I can seeif they're improving as well.
Um, when with the study I, I'll have aweekly telephone call with participants
and we chat about whether they'regonna at the good level for them.
So they might say, oh, I'mdoing quite well and I feel
like everything's going nicely.
And we discuss whether to increase thedifficulty of the games to make it a.
(17:35):
And the length of time thatthey played them for as well.
So I can do all of thatremotely and change all of
that from wherever I'm working
now.
I watched a video, um, of a gentlemanusing one of the headsets where, um,
when he put the headset on, he couldsee the room in front of him and
there were the lines on the floor.
Now, before he put the headset on, itwas clear that he was struggling to walk,
(17:58):
he was struggling to lift his feet up.
There was an element of sort of shuffling.
And then he put the headset on and it wasalmost like watching a different person.
It looked like magic, that somebodycan, can have such a, a big
difference with what seeminglyis a, a small in intervention.
(18:20):
Um, how does it work whenthe headset comes off?
Are there any lasting effectsfrom having, you know, done
that, having, having used it?
The video that you sawwas truly remarkable.
Um, person that was videoed was the suchwonderful change to see in their walking.
(18:43):
What we're finding is, and from whatpeople are telling us, is that people's
walking are improved during the timethat they're wearing the, and then for a.
Period afterwards, and thatcould be 10 minutes to an hour.
Um, at the moment we haven't officiallymeasured it, so we're not entirely
sure, but we call that a carryover.
(19:06):
So the carryover from wearing theheadset, we know that there is some,
so, but we're not sure how long for,and that might vary person to person.
The implications ofthough, so what might mean.
Play on the headset for 10 or 15 minutes.
They might have then a carryover oran improvement in their walking for a
(19:30):
certain period of time, after, which thenallows them to go and do, um, a normal
activity in that period afterwards.
So they might be able to then nip tothe shop independently and back again.
A facility and stroll and peoplewith Parkinson's are very keen to
(19:54):
look into that and explore research
it.
I mean, it, it's soundshugely transformative.
Well, it is, and rehabilitation hasalways relied on that carry effect,
irrespective whatever condition meansthat we're to treat, and the fact
(20:15):
that we can now provide people with.
A rehabilitation in an environmentthat they're familiar with in their
own home at a time that suits themso they're not tied to our timetables
and our schedules here within the NHS.
It just opens up huge newpossibilities, obviously, for
(20:36):
people with Parkinson's because.
We're working with at the moment, butwe could easily see how this technology
could be used for someone who'srecovering from a stroke, from a brain
injury, uh, from cancer, from somethingaffecting the spine, from multiple
sclerosis, from many, many conditions,which have huge amount of to benefit.
(21:05):
Itself.
What's the process now between, youknow, there are a select number of
people who are able to be on this trial?
What's the process between this and it,getting a green light and potentially
being a, a standard form of therapy?
We're going through the process, um, ofwhat's called getting ethical permission
(21:29):
to go ahead and invite more peopleto take part in a much bigger study.
We're hoping to be, to start within thenext few months and we be inviting up to
50 people in to take part in the project.
And there are threeother N Hs hospitals in.
Will be, uh, partnering with us on that.
(21:51):
We'll be leading it.
Um, what we hope is that, um, thistrial will show that it's beneficial
to the people involved, but we're alsocollecting information on how expensive
it is to be able to use this technology.
(22:11):
I'm hoping that it'll be lessexpensive and better for people.
Current systems we're usingtreatments which, and then we'd be
able to put together a proposal.
We organization nice people,
(22:32):
medications and technologiesfor use within the NHS.
Other hospitals around the UKwill be able to, um, buy and use
this technology, uh, for peopleliving within their own regions.
Wow.
I mean, the difference that thiscould have, as you say, is it could
(22:53):
branch out to different patients.
Suffering with differentthings could be huge.
We hear a lot at the moment about, youknow, waiting times and cues for gps
and there's, you know, a bit feeling of.
Oh, it's all doom and gloom.
And then you hear work like thisthat's going on and it makes you
(23:13):
feel really positive about whatthe, the future can, can look like.
It is really positive, and I thinkthis allows people to take control of
their own health and recovery as well.
Uh, this allows you to, todo your rehabilitation at a.
(23:37):
Like Caroline to do the, the moresophisticated, complicated face-to-face
activities, uh, that need to be done.
And maybe some of the more routine,more straightforward rehabilitation
can be delivered, uh, in this way.
So.
E, especially if you begin to thinkabout things that are just on the
(23:59):
market now, you know, we have lots ofvirtual reality headsets and you hear
about, you know, the Google glasses andall the rest of them, and you think,
well actually, if this could over timetransform into something like that,
potentially it could be somethingthat somebody just buys from the shop.
Potentially, I mean, we're really luckyin that we get the, uh, augmented reality
(24:20):
headsets that aren't available to buy yet.
Um, uh, we and, uh, people who'll bejoining us in the study in the next few
months, we, we'll get a sneak previewof what, um, augment reality is actually
gonna look like in two, three years time.
(24:41):
Um, I think there's no reason whypeople should be able to access
this in, in a, in a freer way.
Um, you know, people can take outa gym subscription, people can,
uh, watch your wicks on television.
Uh, this is just another way of helpingyourself to stay well and healthy.
(25:03):
I think.
Very
results.
I think what's also important to sayis that we also have been gathering
a bit of feedback from the peoplewho have been using the glasses.
(25:25):
And some of the themes that arecoming out are that the glasses
are enjoyable to use, that they'reinteresting, they're different to the
traditional physiotherapy exercises.
It's very encouraging.
Um, you get.
(25:47):
It hasn't all been.
Powering us forward to continue with thisbecause people have been enjoying and
using it, and it's a motivating factor forpeople to get moving, which we know helps.
(26:10):
Yeah.
And, and makes, you know,such a difference as well.
And it's so good that, that, thatelement has been thought about.
It isn't, it doesn't sound to melike it's just an inverted commas,
just practical, you know, it hasthe other positive benefits as well.
Yeah.
And if you want to find out anymore details, you can find more
(26:31):
information in our show notescoming up on our next episode.
Women in certain cultures,they may not feel empowered to
ask a man to genetic kidney.
We see commonly in a woman who's noteconomically active, who's uneducated.
They don't feel empowered toask a kidney from somebody who's
(26:53):
working and economically active.
We also see parents incertain cultures not
comfortable asking their children,and we'll hear more from Dr.
DACA in our next episode.
He's a consultant, nephrologist andtransplant physician at Leeds Teaching
Hospitals NHS Trust, and he's workingon a research project that looks into
why some people choose not to havekidney transplants, even though it
(27:16):
might be the best option for them.
Medical breakthroughs.
The research journey is anunder the mask audio production.
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