August 26, 2025 • 50 mins
In this episode, I mind-blended with David Petrovay—an educator, career coach, counselor, and author, about how people can navigate life transitions with clarity and confidence. Starting out teaching blind students, David shares how his own journey led him to become passionate about helping others discover who they are, what they want, and how to embrace opportunities—even when life throws unexpected challenges their way.
Together, we explore:
How career coaching goes beyond jobs—it’s about self-discovery and confidence-building
Why clarity about your values and strengths is the foundation for moving forward
The importance of staying open to possibilities you may not have imagined
The power of networking - leveraging the people around you to tackle the “hidden job market”
- How to rebuild confidence after setbacks and keep momentum during transitions
- Stories of clients who found fulfillment in surprising places by shifting their mindset
If you are in the middle of a career change, facing job loss, or simply seeking more direction and fulfillment in their professional life, this episode is for you.
About David Petrovay
An experienced career counselor and coach, and the author of Out of Work...Not Out of WORTH: Navigating the emotional side of job loss, David has worked for over 20 years in settings that include schools, nonprofits, adult career centers, and private practice. He has years of experience in various positions in schools for the blind across the United States before making a change into career coaching. Motivated by seeing his students and clients become the confident individuals they are, David is passionate about helping anyone struggling to find clarity in the professional field.
You can connect with David on LinkedIn and email davidpetrovay@gmail.com to discuss how he can help you achieve your goals.
Mind Blend is all about real experiences and meaningful conversations—through sharing these insights, I hope to inspire and empower you as you navigate your unique journey.
I’d also love to hear from you! What resonated with you today? What topics or guests should we feature next? Let’s keep the conversation going—connect with me on LinkedIn @ karenkchong and @Mind-Blend
Follow Mind Blend to get notified when new episodes are released!
Until next time, stay curious, keep exploring, and let’s continue to blend our minds and discover what’s possible.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
Have you ever chased after a bus, finally hopped on, only to
realize that it was the wrong one?
Suddenly you're out of breath, off course, and even further
from where you want to go. That's what happens when we
chase goals without really knowing ourselves or our
destination. The truth is, building a
meaningful career isn't about running faster.
(00:23):
It's about knowing where you want to go.
In this episode, career coach David Petrovey shares how
clarity, confidence, and openness to opportunities can
help you define that destinationand catch the bus that's truly
going your way. Welcome to the show Mind Blind.
(00:45):
I'm your host, Karen Chong, and I'll be diving into the minds of
incredible people, each an expert in their very own way.
Together, we'll uncover insightsand share ideas so you can be
inspired and empowered to navigate your own unique journey
in life. Ready to get curious and
discover what's possible? Let's blend in the very, very
(01:10):
beginning of Mind Blend. I had an episode with Juan
Silvera where we talked about how to get that job you want.
But getting a job is a very, very small part of anyone's
career. So today I'm going to talk about
exactly this topic with my guest, David Petrovay.
Hi, David. Hi, Karen.
(01:31):
Great to be with you today. Thank you for coming to Mind
Blend. Welcome to the show.
So before we begin, I'm sure people are interested in what
does David do, Who is David? So can you tell us a little bit
more about yourself and how you got to what you're doing today?
So I'm currently in what we refer to as the fourth quarter
(01:55):
of life. So you know how if you would
break it up into 25 year segments, I'm in that 4th
segment in my life. And so obviously there's a long
history there. Karen and I, I was born on the
East Coast of the US. That's where I went to school.
I earned 2° from the University of Pittsburgh.
(02:18):
The first one was in psychology.Would make a lot of sense in the
work that I do today. And then after that, there
weren't a lot of choices. One of them was, well, you can
either go back to school or you can go to Vietnam.
Huh. OK.
So it. Was just those two.
That was about it, Karen, at that time.
(02:39):
So for me, I was in that first group of people where they held
the lottery to determine based on your birthday, if you would
be eligible for the grant for the draft.
And I was #19 out of 366. So obviously I was at the top of
the list. But luckily I'd had a knee
injury that kept me out of the service and that allowed me to
(03:04):
go directly into Graduate School.
And in fact, when I was told youwill not qualify to go into the
Army, I called directly to the School of Education and said,
OK, here's the situation. Accept me.
And they did. And so I worked.
I did a master's degree, workingwith the blind.
(03:25):
OK, Education of the blind, whenI got into that, I'll tell you
in a little while. Yeah, I'm very.
Interested. And I did that for 34 years in
various capacities across the country in schools for the
blind. And I was, I was getting toward
the end of that part of my career, I decided I want to go
back and study career counseling.
(03:47):
So with a generic counseling degree and my focus was on
career and all the different areas that I sampled, that was
the one that I enjoyed the most because people generally were
not in crisis like they were in marriage counseling or
individual counseling or family counseling.
So after a number of years of that, I decided, you know what,
(04:09):
I want to pursue getting a doctorate APHD.
So I that was at the University of Arizona in Tucson where the
second masters was. And so I believe it or not, I
think they were going to give mesome type of a prize for the
longest amount of time to complete a doctorate.
(04:30):
It took me years to do it, but. How come?
You know, I was working full time, I would go in and out of
motivation and I'm sure a lot ofyour listeners could identify
with that. And when you're going to get
that type of a degree, someone said you better be married to
it. It's going to have it's
(04:50):
insurance and it's outs now. I completed that in 2008 and my
dissertation was on why would people choose to become teachers
of the blind? My study and it was on career
development, which is basically what I do now.
And it was fascinating because Iwent into it just by chance.
(05:13):
I know anyone, unlike most of the people that I had in my
study. And I thought, oh, I could do
this. And I did it.
So what brought me to the point where in 2005 I said, you know,
I've done this for 34 years, so I think it's time for me to
change direction. So I look back at my life, just
(05:33):
like all of your listeners can do, and said, what did?
And I asked myself, what did I enjoy most about what I did?
And it was the career piece of it.
So that's where I went back and became certified as a career
counselor and coach. And I've been doing it for over
25 years. Totally.
OK, so you so you looked back atall the education for the blind
(05:59):
that you did and so tell us a little bit more about what that
included in the education for the blind.
What do you what did you teach them on?
So when I first started, my first class was multiply
impaired students. So they weren't just blind, they
had cognitive issues, other issues in their lives.
(06:19):
And that was a trial by fire because my very first class, I
had 13 students, youngest was 9 and the oldest was 18, quite age
range. And so I had to learn to either
sink or swim with all of them. And then I moved into just what
they would refer to as vanilla blind children.
(06:39):
That was all that they were dealing with, with just their
blindness. And Aaron, I love that because I
them regular subject matter justlike they would have in a public
school, all adapted for the blind.
So I'd put their materials into Braille because I had some
Braille, and it was just so muchfun, the various things that I
(07:03):
was able to communicate with them.
And then after I was in Pennsylvania doing that for
seven years as a classroom teacher, I moved to Arizona and
started out as a classroom teacher there and then moved
into career development, my career development specialist.
So for eight years, I worked with high school students on
(07:27):
their job skills. Yeah.
So identifying what they might want to do after they finished
school and then how to go about applying for a job, how to
interview, how to write a resume.
And it was interesting because when they were older, beyond all
of this, people would interview them and say you've been coached
(07:49):
in how to do this, you're so good. 9th graders that I was
teaching it to. That was another area where I
felt very successful in them out.
And then after 22 years in Arizona, I went over to
California and their school for five years in more of an
administrative position. So I was able to do a little bit
(08:11):
of everything. Looking back over it, what did I
love most? It was the career development.
What was the most gratifying besides your students telling
you, Oh, people knew that I was coach, what was what did you
enjoy the most? Well, it's actually what I'm
enjoying now because I'm still in touch with those students
(08:34):
from Arizona. They're now in their early 50s
and they're telling me how much their education with me meant to
them in terms of who they are asadults now.
Especially the young women, because when they arrived in the
classroom they were very shy. And.
(08:55):
Assertive. And then later on the mothers
would say to me, what did you doto my daughter?
She's up for herself and I remember one time we were having
a party and one of the mothers showed up and the student at the
time, who was about 10, said, mother, this is our party.
You weren't invited. Oh, the wrong audience, but the
(09:19):
right mentality. Oh yes, yes.
So again, it was them learning to be assertive and they still
on. Yes.
And I could imagine maybe back 30 years ago, being assertive as
a woman was probably one of the biggest challenges when it comes
to looking for a job or interview for a female, right?
(09:42):
That's right. How are the male and the female
students different back then? I think you just nailed it that
the the male students, OK were it was a form of entitlement
where, you know, they were givenmore about a carte blanche in
(10:03):
terms of moving forward with thework that they did, found it
easier to find work. The females, not as much.
I mean, a number of them did go on to get work and some of them
are still struggling with that because their blindness is seen
as an obstacle. So their job is to educate
(10:24):
whoever it is that is interviewing them in terms of
here's what I can do, here are the skills that I have.
And with the the ADA, the Americans with Disabilities Act,
as long as you can perform the essential functions of a job,
you need to be seriously considered an apple.
Yeah, yeah. So what about what did you enjoy
(10:49):
the most seeing in your male students?
They're always gratifying. You know, again, it's where they
are today and I see them on Facebook and I see them voicing
their positions in terms their beliefs.
They are so strong and articulate, Karen.
(11:12):
It's just amazing. And I'm, I tell them how proud I
am of the people that they've become.
Doesn't matter what their position is.
It's just the fact that they're willing to speak up to support
it and defend it. Yes.
So not to make you give out yoursecrets, but how do you coach
(11:34):
them? What aspect of them as a person
do you focus on to tease that out so they can represent
themselves the way you would encourage them to?
And I think the common denominator there is
self-confidence, really knowing who you are and being willing to
(11:55):
share that. There might be push back, but if
you truly believe what you bringto a situation that you can
share that, that is what will make a difference.
And it's also what I find in my regular clients, the same thing.
It's like they come, and what's hurting most for them is their
self-confidence. OK.
(12:16):
And what makes you think that, oh, this person needs to work on
their self-confidence when they first come to you, for example?
It's pretty obvious. It's how they talk about
themselves, the doubt that they bring about being hired or being
employable that well, no one is going to hire me because and you
(12:39):
know, it could be my age, it could be the fact that I'm a
female in a male dominated industry, those kinds of things.
So really it's focusing on theirstrengths and their talents,
what they bring to whatever thatsetting is.
OK, I remember a long time ago, it was, this was at least 10
(13:00):
years ago, I had sort of more like a recruitment, like a
recruiting agent headhunter person.
And then I had a session with her because I think she was
moving into career counselling. And I vaguely remember she asked
me a bunch of questions and thenwe put all these bubbles onto
this giant white paper on the wall.
(13:22):
But then I didn't really see howI can continue, like, OK, what
are we getting out of this session and how is that going to
help me? So I struggled with it a little
bit back then. If for someone who's not
familiar with career coaching, how would you describe it to
them? Well, there are actually 2
aspects to this. One is career counseling and the
(13:44):
other one is career coaching. So the clients that I have in
each of those lanes are very different in terms of what they
bring to a session. So career counseling is directed
toward individuals who say I'm no longer employed, I want to
change the type of work that I do, but I'm not sure what it is.
So in counseling, I help them identify what that path might
(14:08):
look like for them. So that would be the career
counseling. And then of course, I will help
them with redoing their resume to reflect that practicing the
interview, career coaching, these people are all working.
They're very successful in the work that they do.
They're dealing with situations that are real time situations.
(14:32):
And they say, you know, I might be having this situation with a
Co worker or I coach them in howI can address that so that they
OK, so that would be the difference in the 2.
So I think the other thing is with career counseling, that's
rather short term. So they'll come to me and say,
well, this is my goal. I want to get this type of a job
(14:55):
and within this amount of time. So it's very time structured.
And so we focus on that. And once they achieve it, they
say, thank you so much. It's been great working with
you. I may never see them again.
Whereas with coaching some of these clients I've had for four
or five years. So they keep coming back because
(15:18):
obviously they keep dealing withsituations in the workplace
where they say I need some support here.
I'm not sure exactly what direction to go in terms of
this. So we look with my psychology
background and the counselling, we look at the types of
personalities they might be dealing with and the most
effective ways to address that. So career counselling is very
(15:43):
much targeted at getting a job, but coaching is not just finding
jobs. No one's about finding jobs.
The other one is keeping a job OK once you have.
It I see. What about mentor?
How is that different from mentoring?
(16:04):
So mentoring and in fact I've, I've written a book and I
include a section on mentoring, whereas coaching and counseling
are very targeted. So as I said, there's a goal and
it's time limited, whereas once you've identified who that
mentor might be, that relationship could continue for
(16:25):
years. So the career counseling in
coaching are again, they're all about a short term situation and
they're more formal in nature interms of how we structure it.
Whereas with enter, once you've identified who that person is,
(16:46):
you might say, well, we're goingto meet once a month for lunch.
I'm going to give you an update on what's happening in work and
then get your feedback based upon your experience as to what
I might do to address this. So they're both focused on
behavioral changes, OK. And so what's going to work for
(17:07):
that individual? Just it's delivered by a very
different type of person. So as a coach, I don't have to
be, let's say, if I'm working with an engineer, I don't have
to have an engineering degree. But if I'm looking for a mentor,
I probably want to have someone with the same experience in the
industry that I'm in. I got it now.
(17:30):
Yeah. I because I hear say football
coaches, sports coaches, formerly they were also players
themselves, but I guess sports are very different from
behavioral. Yes, and it that really is
coaching when you talk about developing a skill.
Let's say you're a golfer and you want to improve your skill
(17:52):
as a golf. That would be more under the
auspices of a coach rather than a mentor.
A mentor might help you if you wanted to become a professional
golfer. In.
Terms of what would that path orwhat could that path look like
and how could I get there? I see.
Yes. And you mentioned goals in both
(18:15):
the counseling and the career coaching.
You're the people who come to you.
What if someone has no goal? They don't know what their goals
are, or what should my goal be? How do you tackle that?
Well, they do have a goal. In fact, it's one that I just
talked about on LinkedIn two weeks ago.
Their goal is to achieve clarity.
(18:37):
Are they clear in what it is that they want to do?
And it's my job as a career counselor to give them that
direction for clarity. So there are all kinds of tools
that we can use to do that is simply.
So tell me about what you enjoy doing as a child, because many
(18:58):
times the work that we do today is an expression of what we
enjoy doing as children. Yeah.
So you know, what was, what was fun for you to do?
Because I really see work as notdrudgery, but there's an
enjoyment and sense of fulfillment very similar to what
would happen when you played. Yeah, yeah.
(19:18):
And so, you know, getting that information from them, I will
say things like when you go to abookstore and you go to the
magazine rack, what is the firstmagazine that you pick up?
Yeah. Yeah, that tells you a lot.
Now it not be exactly what they're choosing to do, Karen.
It will be an aspect of that. Yeah.
(19:42):
And now I'm trying to think of what I picked when I go to Mac,
when when I go to a bookstore, think beautiful pictures, food,
like traveling. And I do like traveling.
But that's a very, very good question.
Yes, yeah. So one thing we talked about but
we didn't go into is how did youchoose to go into education for
(20:05):
the blind? You were going to come back to
it. Oh yes.
So for me, what happened was as I was nearing the end of my
bachelor's degree, I received a letter from the school of
actually, it was special education in the School of
Education, and they were offering fellowships.
So oh, someone's going to pay for me to go to.
(20:26):
How nice. So what I did was I made an
appointment to go to the School of Education Special Ed and I
interviewed the head of every specialty area.
OK. Very last one was working with
the blind. And all I said at the end of
that after comparing it to all the others, was I could do that
(20:50):
and had no experience at all with anyone who was blind.
And I thought, well, all right, let's see what happens.
And then I was accepted into that graduate program.
Back then, they were so hurting for teachers.
I finished a master's degree. I started it in September.
(21:10):
In less than a year, I had a master's degree.
And, and so then I went right into a classroom as a result of
that. So when I was doing my student
teaching, I was approached by the principal who said to me, I
don't know what your plan is after you finish your degree,
but I'd like for you to considerworking here, which was the
first school for the blind that I was in for seven years.
(21:33):
And so I had the background for it again, you know, a lot of it
was trial and error. And I think that that's one
thing that people really need togive themselves the gift of is
just lack, you know, no self judgement.
You're going to go into a job, it's going to be brand new for
you. Give yourself the time that you
(21:55):
need to learn it. And you know, often times
they'll say, well, you have a probationary period of 90 days.
Typically, you can learn many work tasks within those 90 days.
When you go into education, you need a whole year because what
you do at the beginning of the school year is very different
than how you end it. You.
(22:16):
Have to take that into consideration.
So that was, you know what, whatgot me into it, and that was
also the gist of the doctoral dissertation that I wrote, was
that people choose to become teachers of the blind.
So a lot of it is very much likeyou happen to have come across
these different opportunities. And that's life, Karen, all
(22:41):
about opportunity and taking advantage of it when it shows
up, it's. You.
Know it's like you go to a dinner where there are all these
foods that you may have never tasted.
Some of them you're going to like and they're going to work
for you in terms of, oh, I'll, I'd do that again.
Others were OK, I tried it once.No, I don't do that again.
(23:06):
So I think really life is about taking advantage of the
opportunities in front of you and just being open to whatever
they might be. Just like with doing podcasts.
I mean, if 10 years ago you toldme I'd be doing what I'm doing
right at this very moment, I would have had no idea what they
(23:28):
were talking about nor, well, how would you ever do it 'cause
the only people I could do it with were would be people I'm
sitting right next to. We're not even in the same
country. No, at least we're in the same
hemisphere, Western Hemisphere. And as I said a year ago at this
time, I was heading to England, to London.
(23:50):
So I've been to London several times.
So I'm very familiar with that country.
And again, it's opportunity. Yeah, I agree with that 100%.
It's being open minded because if you are not, you will not see
the opportunities, no. Yeah.
And as I said, what it what's the saying about your mind?
(24:12):
Is like a parachute. It only works when it's open.
I have not heard that. I've just read a book about
what's it? It's career related book.
It's called What's the Color of your Parachute?
What color is that parachute? Yes.
Yeah, it's like a 15 year old book by now.
Well. Actually they do an upgrade
every year. Or they used to.
(24:32):
Or the Richard Bowles who wrote the original 1 before he died
and I think his son took over. But you know, I have ones from
1984 or in 1987, pretty similar,but of course they're going to
change based upon what's happening in the world of work.
Yeah, yeah. If anyone hasn't read that book,
highly recommend it. But I think it helped me gain
(24:54):
clarity and I think it it has something practical like try to
switch careers. Not like if you think of it as a
quadrant, try not to go diagonal, but try to go to the
one next to your what your current field is.
It'll be a little easier. So I'm sure our listeners love
love practical advice. That's what I'm all about, is
(25:16):
practical. So for someone who may not even
know that they are stuck or sometimes you don't realize it's
something happened and then you think what, what have I done all
my life? Like I have been doing this for
20 years. But usually that's what happened
when you hit like certain age, like midlife crisis, quarter
(25:41):
life crisis. How could, what would you
encourage people to do so that they, they, they don't get to a
point where it's too late, but like, what can they start doing
to make sure they're pursuing the right thing at the right
moment? Well, you know, you were talking
about using the word crisis. I think they're just
developmental stages. And what I've been hearing
(26:03):
lately is that people either experience A7 year cycle and re
evaluate or 10 year cycle. And so I've been looking at my
past and I thought, oh, I'm actually a 10 year cycle person.
If I look at my age, you know where I was when, you know, OK,
(26:25):
so I was born in 48. Where was I in 58?
Where was I in 68? OK, so you know, and how old was
I at that time? So these were decade birthdays.
And when I look back at them, Karen, I think, Oh my gosh,
there was a major shift at that time.
And you just acknowledge that and say, OK, if this is a
(26:48):
natural progression developmentally, when I reach
that seven-year or that 10 year cycle, it's time for me to re
evaluate what I'm doing. And I like your approach to I'll
do something that's next door toit.
So you rarely will get someone who says, well, you know, for
all these years, I've been an auto mechanic.
(27:10):
So I think now I'm going to be doing brain surgery.
OK, Well, there'll be some aspects, you know, manual
dexterity that will be important.
It's not likely that they're going to make that type of
shift. So for me, being an educator and
a teacher and now doing the workthat I am now, I do webinars
(27:32):
which are about teaching. It's different.
So it's a next door occupation. I like that.
Yeah. Is there any psychology
rationale for the seven-year and10 year like shifts?
No, sometimes they say that it'sbased upon brain physiological
development because they'll say,for instance, we talk about
(27:55):
being 21 and being an adult. Well, that would be a seven-year
cycle. And the interesting thing is I
used to say, I don't know if I agree that at 21 you're an
adult. For me, the number that kept
sticking in my brain was 25. Now.
Know that anatomically the brainis not fully developed, that
(28:17):
prefrontal cortex is not fully developed until 25.
But I also noticed that, you know, just talking to clients
where they might fit in with that one year cycle, 10 year
cycle. I think it's good to just when
you reach one of those milestones, re evaluate what is
it that I'm doing in life? Is it bringing me the
(28:39):
satisfaction that I really want to have?
Or do I need to look at doing something else and stay in the
same field, which is what I did,and then just do very, very
different types of jobs within that field.
So I was the vice principal for a number of years, OK, same
field, doing a very different type of work.
(29:01):
And then what you learn from that?
So evaluate, look back and see what you enjoyed the most as a
person, what you enjoyed as a kid, and what you're doing right
now and sort of just finding outhow far those are, right?
That's right. And I'll tell you what, I have
(29:21):
found a great tool. It's it's not really giving away
a secret. It's a tool that I'm finding
with clients who don't have thatclarity.
I'll get to them. OK.
What is it that you're looking for in a job?
And they'll, they'll say, well, I want to work with my hands.
I want to be indoors and outdoors.
I want to have some level of responsibility for supervision.
(29:45):
So, so we take all of those parameters, we feed them into
AI. Yeah, now we got an assistant.
Yes, so we say OK, what would a job be like if it included these
parameters? You list as many as you want.
AI will do an incredible job of identifying at least five jobs
(30:10):
that you could consider. I just with a client and he was
really lacking clarity and I waslike a little, you know, a, a, a
spot of inspiration for me. I said, let's put it into AI and
see what it says. I, I could do that.
Oh, that would be fun to do. And so I think that it's using
(30:31):
tools that are out there. And I know many people are
frightened by something like AI.Remember, it's a tool.
Let it for you. Yes, yeah, it's the oven, not
the chef. Exactly.
Yeah, yeah. So what would?
What's your most successful case?
(30:52):
Oh, I've so many. There's a a woman that I've been
working with and she's in her 30s now.
And again, we've been working together for probably five
years. And I remember when we first
began what herself confidence was like.
And it was not unusual to have asession where she cried because
(31:14):
it was off beliefs that she didn't think that she was good
enough. And so we just kept chipping
away at that. And now the person that I see
when we meet, we meet on a monthly basis, she's not a
different person, she's more involved.
I would say would be a better way to describe that.
(31:35):
It's just so exciting to hear her talk about what she's going
to do next. And I'm being unafraid to try
things. So I think that's probably my
biggest success. And of course, everyone who's
found a job that they find fulfilment in, satisfaction,
joy, those are all successes too.
(31:58):
Yeah, that's so meaningful. And just think about the impact
that you have made on her life. And it's probably doesn't just
apply to jobs, It probably applies to her life, to how she
carries herself in front of friends, families, like people
who she meet for the first time or in public.
(32:19):
Yeah, and that's where the self-confidence shows up, Karen.
Yeah, just how they interact with people on a day-to-day
basis, they're sure of who they are.
Yeah. So Speaking of that, you've
probably also heard of this phenomenon.
Female won't apply to a job if they don't fit every
requirement. What advice would you have when
(32:40):
it comes to picking what jobs you apply for?
Because it's a fine line. It's a fine line not applying
because you don't fit 100% and applying but you're not going to
do well at all. Well, you must have read this
thing. Research study that I did or
recently read was men will maybeonly fit 80% and they'll go for
(33:01):
it, whereas women will look at it and say, well, unless I can
do it all, then I'm not going tobother applying.
And I mean, when you look at that, you think about the
disservice it does in terms of what women can bring to a work
setting. And in fact, I once was, I have
(33:21):
actually applied for a job as a career counselor at Stanford
University. And I read their job description
and I spoke to the person and said, is there anyone on the
planet who can do everything in this job description and this?
No, you know, you can do probably 7080% of it.
(33:42):
Mostly what's at the top of the job description.
Seriously consider you. OK, So I thought, oh, but that's
really good to know. You don't fit into everything.
You do go through training and that's always something to ask
during an interview, the training that is provided once
you're in the position, because they're all going to have things
(34:04):
that they do that are unique to that specific setting.
So yeah, with with women, I would say look at what it is
that they're asking for. And I always teach people how to
do something called AT Chart andAT Chart is simply a letter T.
Are you familiar with AT Chart? I feel like I have seen it but
(34:26):
not all our listeners have so please explain.
Yeah, you put the job title at the top and on the left side of
the T you write what they want. You go through the job
description and all the requirements.
OK. Then on the right, you put what
I have, OK, and then you look atthe match, let's say they want
(34:46):
five years experience. Well, I have seven years
experience that match and all the way through and just see how
close you are. Now.
In some cases, it could be something that you've done
that's similar that would qualify and you haven't given
yourself credit for that. Give yourself credit for it.
And then that's what you put onto your resume in your
(35:07):
interview. No, while I haven't done that
specifically, let me tell you about what I have done that is
very similar. So that if I can learn that, I
can learn this. Yeah, I think with with women,
they're much more likely to sellthemselves short.
And yet women are so talented because working in education the
(35:30):
majority of my Co workers were women.
Yeah, I can imagine. You know what they would do when
we were in a large meeting? Lean over to me when the speaker
was talking about a specific topic and say ask them this
question. Yeah.
That great question you ask it. Yeah, I don't take credit for
(35:52):
what you're thinking. And it was very hard for them to
do. And these were women who
eventually went on to get PhDs. Yeah.
Look, it's, it's about programming.
Women's programming, yes. That's many, many years, decades
of just mental like all these propaganda messaging like you're
not good enough from our parents, even though that would
(36:14):
take some time, but at least I'mseeing a lot of us are becoming
a lot more confident we have a seat at the table.
So, but unfortunately, the market is not doing so great
worldwide. So there's still a lot of people
who might have been just laid off.
I know you wrote about that, or just haven't been able to find
jobs even after a year, year anda half, two years and they're
(36:37):
losing confidence. Do you have any advice on what
they can do to like evaluate what they're doing or keep the
momentum, just not lose confidence?
So I think again, it goes back to what are my strikes, what are
my skills, what are my talents, Where is the best place for me
(36:58):
to be using these and then finding where those there we go
opportunities and then using your network.
I thought that people use their networks as much as they could,
Karen, because what we find is that many times about 80% of
jobs are found through a network.
(37:20):
It's called the hidden job market.
I can't agree with that more. Yeah.
So build that network. Now, it doesn't mean that you
run around to people and say, hey, get me a job.
That's a bit of a challenge. But when someone asks you,
especially in this country, whatdo you do for a living and
(37:41):
you're unemployed, there's an embarrassment and shame attached
to that, even though you probably had nothing to do with
that decision to have the unemployed unless you quit your
job because it was toxic or, youknow, other reason.
But it's really about saying, well, right now I'm between
jobs, yeah, See if that can openup a dialogue because people
(38:05):
know people. Yeah, and I also just wrote
about it. Even so, it's about how when I'm
finding guests for my podcast, very similar to companies
looking for people, one of them is network.
Because you don't know if this will become a connection down
the road. You won't get a job tomorrow
(38:28):
just by networking. But you never know.
Like expanding your network never hurts and opportunities
may come along. That's right, they do.
And so you, as you say, you justremain open to that.
And you never know who you're going to be talking to.
Or they say, well, I don't do that work, but a friend of mine
(38:49):
does. Would you like to talk to them?
Sure. And the other thing is dealing
with rejection. I mean, let's face it, there's
going to be rejection in this. Hey, when I sign up to do
podcasts, do you think everyone that I replied to has me on
their show? No, Yeah, well, that's their
choice as the podcaster, and forwhatever reason I may not be the
(39:14):
type of guest they're looking for.
I'm OK with that. Yeah.
And I would like to tell my friends who are getting deflated
by rejections, you only need one.
Yes. So it's, you know, you don't
need everyone to say yes, you just need one.
And that works across the board,Karen.
It's people who are looking to find a partner.
(39:37):
I'll never find someone. I said, wait a minute.
You know, there are 8 billion people on the planet.
Yeah. How many of you want to be
married to? Yeah.
Oh, just one. I said, guess what?
The odds are in your favor then.And it's like anything else.
The odds are in your favor. Don't worry about the nose.
Yes, will come eventually and it'll be the right one.
(40:00):
And even if you get a, an acceptance, you go into the job
and you may find out, oh, this is not a match for me.
That really doing your homework about the culture.
Because a lot of times when people are looking to be hired,
that's another area that they don't educate themselves on.
(40:23):
It's like, what's the culture that I fit best into?
And so it's looking at, OK, I want something that's collegial
or I want a job where I'm alwaystold exactly what to do.
I really don't have to think formyself and that's OK.
Then don't go into a job where they where they're expecting you
(40:43):
to do independent thinking. Yeah, I found out what I won't
enjoy as I'm doing the interviews.
So I remember I used to interview for all kinds of
business fields and then as the year progresses, I just trim
them down. And now that's why I'm doing
what I'm doing because all the other ones, I did not enjoy that
(41:05):
environment or the personalities.
So it's like you said, reflect, like ask yourself.
Yep, And the more you, you know,this goes back, wow, centuries,
if not millennia, which is know yourself.
That's where you begin anything in life.
We don't spend enough time knowing ourselves.
(41:27):
I, I spent more time in school with that.
Just who am I in all areas of mylife, not just where I, you
know, where I work or what I do for work, but just in what I
bring to the table. Yeah.
What are your strengths? That's right.
So let's see how well you know yourself, David.
(41:48):
All right, so I'm going to play a quick round of rapid fire
questions. So don't think too much.
Just got reaction. What's a small habit that made a
huge difference in your career success?
Oh, I definitely think it was being open to opportunity.
(42:08):
I think once I did that, Karen, the world opened up for me in in
just so many aspects of life, not just work, but I like you.
We talked about this. I love to travel.
And so I have a list of all the places that I want to go to.
I wanted to go to Russia, just like Petersburg, but we had a
(42:32):
trip planned to go to Alaska, OK, And we were going with a
couple who was celebrating their50th anniversary.
She couldn't get her passport because of a technicality.
Oh, OK, yeah. And I said, well, we'll still
go. Well, we get a call from the
travel agent saying, you know what, Alaska's hot ticket item.
(42:55):
Would you be willing to give up your travels to Alaska to go to
the Baltic, which includes Russia and Saint Petersburg?
Wow. So we said of course, and not
only that they flew us over first class.
Wow, OK. We go to Saint Petersburg and
they offer two excursions. One of them is to go to the
(43:16):
Hermitage, which was on my list of places to go to, and you
could go during the day where there were thousands of other
tourists. Or you could go for an evening
excursion in which a Symphony would do a private concert for
you. And then the group from the ship
would be broken up into groups of 10 and on a private tour of
(43:40):
the Hermitage to see artwork. Wow.
Now there is being open to opportunity.
I I know. Oh, no, no.
We want to go to, you know, Alaska.
That's it. Yeah, yeah.
But Alaska was never on my wish list.
The Hermitage was wow. I mean it.
(44:01):
It's just I could tell so many stories about how just being
open to opportunity has made an incredible difference in my
life. And another thing that I can't
agree more on. OK, next one.
Worst career advice you have heard?
Oh that's easy. Someone who was a so-called
(44:24):
specialist, OK, who said when you go into an interview make it
sound like you're the perfect person for that position,
whether it is a match for you ornot.
Just be whatever they want you to be.
(44:44):
I think, OK, worst career advice.
And this was someone who was supposedly well known in the
field and I thought, oh, I couldsee where that would take you.
Yeah, but certain certain fieldsmay require that personality.
OK, one thing you would never say in a job interview.
When they ask you tell me about a, a weakness that you have, I'm
(45:09):
a perfectionist. No, that is, that's a well.
No, yeah. That is A and so that'll win the
hot water every time. Actually, what we say is I'm an
imperfectionist. Yeah, OK.
I mean, I would an interview, but it's the truth.
OK. Focus on the fact that we are
(45:31):
imperfect now. What we do then is we come up
with compensation or how we dealwith it.
So if I'm not good at something,well, you know, I hire someone
who is good at it. So if if I have a business of my
own and I'm not good in accounting, guess what?
I'll hire an accountant to do that.
It's great answer, great advice.If you had ten extra hours a
(45:56):
week, how would you use them? And then the first thought that
crossed my mind, Karen, was justliving just because one, one of
the lessons that I've learned inlife is how to live in the
moment. For instance, if I was
travelling, you know, I'd, I'd build more travel time into
(46:18):
what? Because next month I'm on my way
to Italy and France. For real.
For real. OK.
And there's these that I've beento before.
Gee, if I had, for instance, 10 more hours a week in Paris, oh,
I could Add all kinds of activities that would fill that
with working. The other thing that I do
(46:39):
besides speaking like this and doing career counseling is I
write. And that was another area where
I was told when I was younger, you'll never be a writer.
You you really have bad writing skills.
And I thought published 3 books and I've got two more on the
way. So I'd probably spend more time
(47:01):
devoting myself to writing. I had that.
So that what I enjoy in life I would just add to, that's all.
Yeah. Like I relate to that.
I would do those things, but better or more in depth, not
necessarily just adding more things.
What's the point of doing 10 million things if you only did
(47:22):
the surface right? Right.
OK last one, what's a completelynon career related skill you
wish you had? Being able to address any
problems I have on the computer.I am not a computer savvy
(47:44):
person, so we're talking about finding people who are my next
door neighbor. Anytime I have a problem my
computer, I say hey Bob, you need to come over.
I said in my next life I'm goingto come back as a computer
programmer. I understand this better.
I, I just, with my personality type, I'm just not a high tech
(48:08):
person. I can use things, but you know,
my computer stops working. What do I do?
I call my neighbor. Yes, find the people around you
who are better than you at the things you're not so good at.
And that's your network, OK? Yeah, yeah.
It's the network of people who know how to do what you don't
(48:28):
know how to do. Exactly.
Yes, not everyone has to do everything and be perfect at it,
but that's life, right? That's right.
We're all not all Renaissance people.
There are a few of them like that, like Thomas Jefferson, he
was one. But they're few and far between,
and they're probably one in a billion that have that ability,
(48:49):
right? More than a billion.
Yeah. Well, it was very, very nice
talking to you, David. It reinforces certain things
that I know, but it opened up a lot more areas of career that I
haven't thought about, and I'm sure our listeners would agree
with that. And in along with those, Karen,
I do have a book that is called Out of Work Not Out of Worth
(49:13):
navigating the emotional side ofjob loss.
So it talks about many of the topics that we discussed, like
the first one is huge, that chapter, self-confidence.
Yeah, yeah. And it's something that you have
to not lose it, otherwise yourself will crumble.
It does. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Thank you so much for being on mine, Bland.
(49:35):
I really enjoyed talking to you,David.
Likewise, Karen. It's like we've known each other
forever. I know, and it felt like I also
had a coaching session with you,too.
Thank you. Thank you very much.
You're quite welcome, have a great day.
Thanks for listening to this episode of Mind One.
(49:56):
If you enjoyed the conversation,don't forget to follow and share
it with anyone who needs to hearit.
And let's keep the conversation going.
Connect with me on LinkedIn or leave me a comment.
Until next time, stay curious, keep exploring, and let's
continue to blend our minds and discover what's possible.
Have you ever chased after a bus, finally hopped on, only to
realize that it was the wrong one?
Suddenly you're out of breath, off course, and even further
from where you want to go. That's what happens when we
chase goals without really knowing ourselves or our
destination. The truth is, building a
meaningful career isn't about running faster.
(00:23):
It's about knowing where you want to go.
In this episode, career coach David Petrovey shares how
clarity, confidence, and openness to opportunities can
help you define that destinationand catch the bus that's truly
going your way. Welcome to the show Mind Blind.
(00:45):
I'm your host, Karen Chong, and I'll be diving into the minds of
incredible people, each an expert in their very own way.
Together, we'll uncover insightsand share ideas so you can be
inspired and empowered to navigate your own unique journey
in life. Ready to get curious and
discover what's possible? Let's blend in the very, very
(01:10):
beginning of Mind Blend. I had an episode with Juan
Silvera where we talked about how to get that job you want.
But getting a job is a very, very small part of anyone's
career. So today I'm going to talk about
exactly this topic with my guest, David Petrovay.
Hi, David. Hi, Karen.
(01:31):
Great to be with you today. Thank you for coming to Mind
Blend. Welcome to the show.
So before we begin, I'm sure people are interested in what
does David do, Who is David? So can you tell us a little bit
more about yourself and how you got to what you're doing today?
So I'm currently in what we refer to as the fourth quarter
(01:55):
of life. So you know how if you would
break it up into 25 year segments, I'm in that 4th
segment in my life. And so obviously there's a long
history there. Karen and I, I was born on the
East Coast of the US. That's where I went to school.
I earned 2° from the University of Pittsburgh.
(02:18):
The first one was in psychology.Would make a lot of sense in the
work that I do today. And then after that, there
weren't a lot of choices. One of them was, well, you can
either go back to school or you can go to Vietnam.
Huh. OK.
So it. Was just those two.
That was about it, Karen, at that time.
(02:39):
So for me, I was in that first group of people where they held
the lottery to determine based on your birthday, if you would
be eligible for the grant for the draft.
And I was #19 out of 366. So obviously I was at the top of
the list. But luckily I'd had a knee
injury that kept me out of the service and that allowed me to
(03:04):
go directly into Graduate School.
And in fact, when I was told youwill not qualify to go into the
Army, I called directly to the School of Education and said,
OK, here's the situation. Accept me.
And they did. And so I worked.
I did a master's degree, workingwith the blind.
(03:25):
OK, Education of the blind, whenI got into that, I'll tell you
in a little while. Yeah, I'm very.
Interested. And I did that for 34 years in
various capacities across the country in schools for the
blind. And I was, I was getting toward
the end of that part of my career, I decided I want to go
back and study career counseling.
(03:47):
So with a generic counseling degree and my focus was on
career and all the different areas that I sampled, that was
the one that I enjoyed the most because people generally were
not in crisis like they were in marriage counseling or
individual counseling or family counseling.
So after a number of years of that, I decided, you know what,
(04:09):
I want to pursue getting a doctorate APHD.
So I that was at the University of Arizona in Tucson where the
second masters was. And so I believe it or not, I
think they were going to give mesome type of a prize for the
longest amount of time to complete a doctorate.
(04:30):
It took me years to do it, but. How come?
You know, I was working full time, I would go in and out of
motivation and I'm sure a lot ofyour listeners could identify
with that. And when you're going to get
that type of a degree, someone said you better be married to
it. It's going to have it's
(04:50):
insurance and it's outs now. I completed that in 2008 and my
dissertation was on why would people choose to become teachers
of the blind? My study and it was on career
development, which is basically what I do now.
And it was fascinating because Iwent into it just by chance.
(05:13):
I know anyone, unlike most of the people that I had in my
study. And I thought, oh, I could do
this. And I did it.
So what brought me to the point where in 2005 I said, you know,
I've done this for 34 years, so I think it's time for me to
change direction. So I look back at my life, just
(05:33):
like all of your listeners can do, and said, what did?
And I asked myself, what did I enjoy most about what I did?
And it was the career piece of it.
So that's where I went back and became certified as a career
counselor and coach. And I've been doing it for over
25 years. Totally.
OK, so you so you looked back atall the education for the blind
(05:59):
that you did and so tell us a little bit more about what that
included in the education for the blind.
What do you what did you teach them on?
So when I first started, my first class was multiply
impaired students. So they weren't just blind, they
had cognitive issues, other issues in their lives.
(06:19):
And that was a trial by fire because my very first class, I
had 13 students, youngest was 9 and the oldest was 18, quite age
range. And so I had to learn to either
sink or swim with all of them. And then I moved into just what
they would refer to as vanilla blind children.
(06:39):
That was all that they were dealing with, with just their
blindness. And Aaron, I love that because I
them regular subject matter justlike they would have in a public
school, all adapted for the blind.
So I'd put their materials into Braille because I had some
Braille, and it was just so muchfun, the various things that I
(07:03):
was able to communicate with them.
And then after I was in Pennsylvania doing that for
seven years as a classroom teacher, I moved to Arizona and
started out as a classroom teacher there and then moved
into career development, my career development specialist.
So for eight years, I worked with high school students on
(07:27):
their job skills. Yeah.
So identifying what they might want to do after they finished
school and then how to go about applying for a job, how to
interview, how to write a resume.
And it was interesting because when they were older, beyond all
of this, people would interview them and say you've been coached
(07:49):
in how to do this, you're so good. 9th graders that I was
teaching it to. That was another area where I
felt very successful in them out.
And then after 22 years in Arizona, I went over to
California and their school for five years in more of an
administrative position. So I was able to do a little bit
(08:11):
of everything. Looking back over it, what did I
love most? It was the career development.
What was the most gratifying besides your students telling
you, Oh, people knew that I was coach, what was what did you
enjoy the most? Well, it's actually what I'm
enjoying now because I'm still in touch with those students
(08:34):
from Arizona. They're now in their early 50s
and they're telling me how much their education with me meant to
them in terms of who they are asadults now.
Especially the young women, because when they arrived in the
classroom they were very shy. And.
(08:55):
Assertive. And then later on the mothers
would say to me, what did you doto my daughter?
She's up for herself and I remember one time we were having
a party and one of the mothers showed up and the student at the
time, who was about 10, said, mother, this is our party.
You weren't invited. Oh, the wrong audience, but the
(09:19):
right mentality. Oh yes, yes.
So again, it was them learning to be assertive and they still
on. Yes.
And I could imagine maybe back 30 years ago, being assertive as
a woman was probably one of the biggest challenges when it comes
to looking for a job or interview for a female, right?
(09:42):
That's right. How are the male and the female
students different back then? I think you just nailed it that
the the male students, OK were it was a form of entitlement
where, you know, they were givenmore about a carte blanche in
(10:03):
terms of moving forward with thework that they did, found it
easier to find work. The females, not as much.
I mean, a number of them did go on to get work and some of them
are still struggling with that because their blindness is seen
as an obstacle. So their job is to educate
(10:24):
whoever it is that is interviewing them in terms of
here's what I can do, here are the skills that I have.
And with the the ADA, the Americans with Disabilities Act,
as long as you can perform the essential functions of a job,
you need to be seriously considered an apple.
Yeah, yeah. So what about what did you enjoy
(10:49):
the most seeing in your male students?
They're always gratifying. You know, again, it's where they
are today and I see them on Facebook and I see them voicing
their positions in terms their beliefs.
They are so strong and articulate, Karen.
(11:12):
It's just amazing. And I'm, I tell them how proud I
am of the people that they've become.
Doesn't matter what their position is.
It's just the fact that they're willing to speak up to support
it and defend it. Yes.
So not to make you give out yoursecrets, but how do you coach
(11:34):
them? What aspect of them as a person
do you focus on to tease that out so they can represent
themselves the way you would encourage them to?
And I think the common denominator there is
self-confidence, really knowing who you are and being willing to
(11:55):
share that. There might be push back, but if
you truly believe what you bringto a situation that you can
share that, that is what will make a difference.
And it's also what I find in my regular clients, the same thing.
It's like they come, and what's hurting most for them is their
self-confidence. OK.
(12:16):
And what makes you think that, oh, this person needs to work on
their self-confidence when they first come to you, for example?
It's pretty obvious. It's how they talk about
themselves, the doubt that they bring about being hired or being
employable that well, no one is going to hire me because and you
(12:39):
know, it could be my age, it could be the fact that I'm a
female in a male dominated industry, those kinds of things.
So really it's focusing on theirstrengths and their talents,
what they bring to whatever thatsetting is.
OK, I remember a long time ago, it was, this was at least 10
(13:00):
years ago, I had sort of more like a recruitment, like a
recruiting agent headhunter person.
And then I had a session with her because I think she was
moving into career counselling. And I vaguely remember she asked
me a bunch of questions and thenwe put all these bubbles onto
this giant white paper on the wall.
(13:22):
But then I didn't really see howI can continue, like, OK, what
are we getting out of this session and how is that going to
help me? So I struggled with it a little
bit back then. If for someone who's not
familiar with career coaching, how would you describe it to
them? Well, there are actually 2
aspects to this. One is career counseling and the
(13:44):
other one is career coaching. So the clients that I have in
each of those lanes are very different in terms of what they
bring to a session. So career counseling is directed
toward individuals who say I'm no longer employed, I want to
change the type of work that I do, but I'm not sure what it is.
So in counseling, I help them identify what that path might
(14:08):
look like for them. So that would be the career
counseling. And then of course, I will help
them with redoing their resume to reflect that practicing the
interview, career coaching, these people are all working.
They're very successful in the work that they do.
They're dealing with situations that are real time situations.
(14:32):
And they say, you know, I might be having this situation with a
Co worker or I coach them in howI can address that so that they
OK, so that would be the difference in the 2.
So I think the other thing is with career counseling, that's
rather short term. So they'll come to me and say,
well, this is my goal. I want to get this type of a job
(14:55):
and within this amount of time. So it's very time structured.
And so we focus on that. And once they achieve it, they
say, thank you so much. It's been great working with
you. I may never see them again.
Whereas with coaching some of these clients I've had for four
or five years. So they keep coming back because
(15:18):
obviously they keep dealing withsituations in the workplace
where they say I need some support here.
I'm not sure exactly what direction to go in terms of
this. So we look with my psychology
background and the counselling, we look at the types of
personalities they might be dealing with and the most
effective ways to address that. So career counselling is very
(15:43):
much targeted at getting a job, but coaching is not just finding
jobs. No one's about finding jobs.
The other one is keeping a job OK once you have.
It I see. What about mentor?
How is that different from mentoring?
(16:04):
So mentoring and in fact I've, I've written a book and I
include a section on mentoring, whereas coaching and counseling
are very targeted. So as I said, there's a goal and
it's time limited, whereas once you've identified who that
mentor might be, that relationship could continue for
(16:25):
years. So the career counseling in
coaching are again, they're all about a short term situation and
they're more formal in nature interms of how we structure it.
Whereas with enter, once you've identified who that person is,
(16:46):
you might say, well, we're goingto meet once a month for lunch.
I'm going to give you an update on what's happening in work and
then get your feedback based upon your experience as to what
I might do to address this. So they're both focused on
behavioral changes, OK. And so what's going to work for
(17:07):
that individual? Just it's delivered by a very
different type of person. So as a coach, I don't have to
be, let's say, if I'm working with an engineer, I don't have
to have an engineering degree. But if I'm looking for a mentor,
I probably want to have someone with the same experience in the
industry that I'm in. I got it now.
(17:30):
Yeah. I because I hear say football
coaches, sports coaches, formerly they were also players
themselves, but I guess sports are very different from
behavioral. Yes, and it that really is
coaching when you talk about developing a skill.
Let's say you're a golfer and you want to improve your skill
(17:52):
as a golf. That would be more under the
auspices of a coach rather than a mentor.
A mentor might help you if you wanted to become a professional
golfer. In.
Terms of what would that path orwhat could that path look like
and how could I get there? I see.
Yes. And you mentioned goals in both
(18:15):
the counseling and the career coaching.
You're the people who come to you.
What if someone has no goal? They don't know what their goals
are, or what should my goal be? How do you tackle that?
Well, they do have a goal. In fact, it's one that I just
talked about on LinkedIn two weeks ago.
Their goal is to achieve clarity.
(18:37):
Are they clear in what it is that they want to do?
And it's my job as a career counselor to give them that
direction for clarity. So there are all kinds of tools
that we can use to do that is simply.
So tell me about what you enjoy doing as a child, because many
(18:58):
times the work that we do today is an expression of what we
enjoy doing as children. Yeah.
So you know, what was, what was fun for you to do?
Because I really see work as notdrudgery, but there's an
enjoyment and sense of fulfillment very similar to what
would happen when you played. Yeah, yeah.
(19:18):
And so, you know, getting that information from them, I will
say things like when you go to abookstore and you go to the
magazine rack, what is the firstmagazine that you pick up?
Yeah. Yeah, that tells you a lot.
Now it not be exactly what they're choosing to do, Karen.
It will be an aspect of that. Yeah.
(19:42):
And now I'm trying to think of what I picked when I go to Mac,
when when I go to a bookstore, think beautiful pictures, food,
like traveling. And I do like traveling.
But that's a very, very good question.
Yes, yeah. So one thing we talked about but
we didn't go into is how did youchoose to go into education for
(20:05):
the blind? You were going to come back to
it. Oh yes.
So for me, what happened was as I was nearing the end of my
bachelor's degree, I received a letter from the school of
actually, it was special education in the School of
Education, and they were offering fellowships.
So oh, someone's going to pay for me to go to.
(20:26):
How nice. So what I did was I made an
appointment to go to the School of Education Special Ed and I
interviewed the head of every specialty area.
OK. Very last one was working with
the blind. And all I said at the end of
that after comparing it to all the others, was I could do that
(20:50):
and had no experience at all with anyone who was blind.
And I thought, well, all right, let's see what happens.
And then I was accepted into that graduate program.
Back then, they were so hurting for teachers.
I finished a master's degree. I started it in September.
(21:10):
In less than a year, I had a master's degree.
And, and so then I went right into a classroom as a result of
that. So when I was doing my student
teaching, I was approached by the principal who said to me, I
don't know what your plan is after you finish your degree,
but I'd like for you to considerworking here, which was the
first school for the blind that I was in for seven years.
(21:33):
And so I had the background for it again, you know, a lot of it
was trial and error. And I think that that's one
thing that people really need togive themselves the gift of is
just lack, you know, no self judgement.
You're going to go into a job, it's going to be brand new for
you. Give yourself the time that you
(21:55):
need to learn it. And you know, often times
they'll say, well, you have a probationary period of 90 days.
Typically, you can learn many work tasks within those 90 days.
When you go into education, you need a whole year because what
you do at the beginning of the school year is very different
than how you end it. You.
(22:16):
Have to take that into consideration.
So that was, you know what, whatgot me into it, and that was
also the gist of the doctoral dissertation that I wrote, was
that people choose to become teachers of the blind.
So a lot of it is very much likeyou happen to have come across
these different opportunities. And that's life, Karen, all
(22:41):
about opportunity and taking advantage of it when it shows
up, it's. You.
Know it's like you go to a dinner where there are all these
foods that you may have never tasted.
Some of them you're going to like and they're going to work
for you in terms of, oh, I'll, I'd do that again.
Others were OK, I tried it once.No, I don't do that again.
(23:06):
So I think really life is about taking advantage of the
opportunities in front of you and just being open to whatever
they might be. Just like with doing podcasts.
I mean, if 10 years ago you toldme I'd be doing what I'm doing
right at this very moment, I would have had no idea what they
(23:28):
were talking about nor, well, how would you ever do it 'cause
the only people I could do it with were would be people I'm
sitting right next to. We're not even in the same
country. No, at least we're in the same
hemisphere, Western Hemisphere. And as I said a year ago at this
time, I was heading to England, to London.
(23:50):
So I've been to London several times.
So I'm very familiar with that country.
And again, it's opportunity. Yeah, I agree with that 100%.
It's being open minded because if you are not, you will not see
the opportunities, no. Yeah.
And as I said, what it what's the saying about your mind?
(24:12):
Is like a parachute. It only works when it's open.
I have not heard that. I've just read a book about
what's it? It's career related book.
It's called What's the Color of your Parachute?
What color is that parachute? Yes.
Yeah, it's like a 15 year old book by now.
Well. Actually they do an upgrade
every year. Or they used to.
(24:32):
Or the Richard Bowles who wrote the original 1 before he died
and I think his son took over. But you know, I have ones from
1984 or in 1987, pretty similar,but of course they're going to
change based upon what's happening in the world of work.
Yeah, yeah. If anyone hasn't read that book,
highly recommend it. But I think it helped me gain
(24:54):
clarity and I think it it has something practical like try to
switch careers. Not like if you think of it as a
quadrant, try not to go diagonal, but try to go to the
one next to your what your current field is.
It'll be a little easier. So I'm sure our listeners love
love practical advice. That's what I'm all about, is
(25:16):
practical. So for someone who may not even
know that they are stuck or sometimes you don't realize it's
something happened and then you think what, what have I done all
my life? Like I have been doing this for
20 years. But usually that's what happened
when you hit like certain age, like midlife crisis, quarter
(25:41):
life crisis. How could, what would you
encourage people to do so that they, they, they don't get to a
point where it's too late, but like, what can they start doing
to make sure they're pursuing the right thing at the right
moment? Well, you know, you were talking
about using the word crisis. I think they're just
developmental stages. And what I've been hearing
(26:03):
lately is that people either experience A7 year cycle and re
evaluate or 10 year cycle. And so I've been looking at my
past and I thought, oh, I'm actually a 10 year cycle person.
If I look at my age, you know where I was when, you know, OK,
(26:25):
so I was born in 48. Where was I in 58?
Where was I in 68? OK, so you know, and how old was
I at that time? So these were decade birthdays.
And when I look back at them, Karen, I think, Oh my gosh,
there was a major shift at that time.
And you just acknowledge that and say, OK, if this is a
(26:48):
natural progression developmentally, when I reach
that seven-year or that 10 year cycle, it's time for me to re
evaluate what I'm doing. And I like your approach to I'll
do something that's next door toit.
So you rarely will get someone who says, well, you know, for
all these years, I've been an auto mechanic.
(27:10):
So I think now I'm going to be doing brain surgery.
OK, Well, there'll be some aspects, you know, manual
dexterity that will be important.
It's not likely that they're going to make that type of
shift. So for me, being an educator and
a teacher and now doing the workthat I am now, I do webinars
(27:32):
which are about teaching. It's different.
So it's a next door occupation. I like that.
Yeah. Is there any psychology
rationale for the seven-year and10 year like shifts?
No, sometimes they say that it'sbased upon brain physiological
development because they'll say,for instance, we talk about
(27:55):
being 21 and being an adult. Well, that would be a seven-year
cycle. And the interesting thing is I
used to say, I don't know if I agree that at 21 you're an
adult. For me, the number that kept
sticking in my brain was 25. Now.
Know that anatomically the brainis not fully developed, that
(28:17):
prefrontal cortex is not fully developed until 25.
But I also noticed that, you know, just talking to clients
where they might fit in with that one year cycle, 10 year
cycle. I think it's good to just when
you reach one of those milestones, re evaluate what is
it that I'm doing in life? Is it bringing me the
(28:39):
satisfaction that I really want to have?
Or do I need to look at doing something else and stay in the
same field, which is what I did,and then just do very, very
different types of jobs within that field.
So I was the vice principal for a number of years, OK, same
field, doing a very different type of work.
(29:01):
And then what you learn from that?
So evaluate, look back and see what you enjoyed the most as a
person, what you enjoyed as a kid, and what you're doing right
now and sort of just finding outhow far those are, right?
That's right. And I'll tell you what, I have
(29:21):
found a great tool. It's it's not really giving away
a secret. It's a tool that I'm finding
with clients who don't have thatclarity.
I'll get to them. OK.
What is it that you're looking for in a job?
And they'll, they'll say, well, I want to work with my hands.
I want to be indoors and outdoors.
I want to have some level of responsibility for supervision.
(29:45):
So, so we take all of those parameters, we feed them into
AI. Yeah, now we got an assistant.
Yes, so we say OK, what would a job be like if it included these
parameters? You list as many as you want.
AI will do an incredible job of identifying at least five jobs
(30:10):
that you could consider. I just with a client and he was
really lacking clarity and I waslike a little, you know, a, a, a
spot of inspiration for me. I said, let's put it into AI and
see what it says. I, I could do that.
Oh, that would be fun to do. And so I think that it's using
(30:31):
tools that are out there. And I know many people are
frightened by something like AI.Remember, it's a tool.
Let it for you. Yes, yeah, it's the oven, not
the chef. Exactly.
Yeah, yeah. So what would?
What's your most successful case?
(30:52):
Oh, I've so many. There's a a woman that I've been
working with and she's in her 30s now.
And again, we've been working together for probably five
years. And I remember when we first
began what herself confidence was like.
And it was not unusual to have asession where she cried because
(31:14):
it was off beliefs that she didn't think that she was good
enough. And so we just kept chipping
away at that. And now the person that I see
when we meet, we meet on a monthly basis, she's not a
different person, she's more involved.
I would say would be a better way to describe that.
(31:35):
It's just so exciting to hear her talk about what she's going
to do next. And I'm being unafraid to try
things. So I think that's probably my
biggest success. And of course, everyone who's
found a job that they find fulfilment in, satisfaction,
joy, those are all successes too.
(31:58):
Yeah, that's so meaningful. And just think about the impact
that you have made on her life. And it's probably doesn't just
apply to jobs, It probably applies to her life, to how she
carries herself in front of friends, families, like people
who she meet for the first time or in public.
(32:19):
Yeah, and that's where the self-confidence shows up, Karen.
Yeah, just how they interact with people on a day-to-day
basis, they're sure of who they are.
Yeah. So Speaking of that, you've
probably also heard of this phenomenon.
Female won't apply to a job if they don't fit every
requirement. What advice would you have when
(32:40):
it comes to picking what jobs you apply for?
Because it's a fine line. It's a fine line not applying
because you don't fit 100% and applying but you're not going to
do well at all. Well, you must have read this
thing. Research study that I did or
recently read was men will maybeonly fit 80% and they'll go for
(33:01):
it, whereas women will look at it and say, well, unless I can
do it all, then I'm not going tobother applying.
And I mean, when you look at that, you think about the
disservice it does in terms of what women can bring to a work
setting. And in fact, I once was, I have
(33:21):
actually applied for a job as a career counselor at Stanford
University. And I read their job description
and I spoke to the person and said, is there anyone on the
planet who can do everything in this job description and this?
No, you know, you can do probably 7080% of it.
(33:42):
Mostly what's at the top of the job description.
Seriously consider you. OK, So I thought, oh, but that's
really good to know. You don't fit into everything.
You do go through training and that's always something to ask
during an interview, the training that is provided once
you're in the position, because they're all going to have things
(34:04):
that they do that are unique to that specific setting.
So yeah, with with women, I would say look at what it is
that they're asking for. And I always teach people how to
do something called AT Chart andAT Chart is simply a letter T.
Are you familiar with AT Chart? I feel like I have seen it but
(34:26):
not all our listeners have so please explain.
Yeah, you put the job title at the top and on the left side of
the T you write what they want. You go through the job
description and all the requirements.
OK. Then on the right, you put what
I have, OK, and then you look atthe match, let's say they want
(34:46):
five years experience. Well, I have seven years
experience that match and all the way through and just see how
close you are. Now.
In some cases, it could be something that you've done
that's similar that would qualify and you haven't given
yourself credit for that. Give yourself credit for it.
And then that's what you put onto your resume in your
(35:07):
interview. No, while I haven't done that
specifically, let me tell you about what I have done that is
very similar. So that if I can learn that, I
can learn this. Yeah, I think with with women,
they're much more likely to sellthemselves short.
And yet women are so talented because working in education the
(35:30):
majority of my Co workers were women.
Yeah, I can imagine. You know what they would do when
we were in a large meeting? Lean over to me when the speaker
was talking about a specific topic and say ask them this
question. Yeah.
That great question you ask it. Yeah, I don't take credit for
(35:52):
what you're thinking. And it was very hard for them to
do. And these were women who
eventually went on to get PhDs. Yeah.
Look, it's, it's about programming.
Women's programming, yes. That's many, many years, decades
of just mental like all these propaganda messaging like you're
not good enough from our parents, even though that would
(36:14):
take some time, but at least I'mseeing a lot of us are becoming
a lot more confident we have a seat at the table.
So, but unfortunately, the market is not doing so great
worldwide. So there's still a lot of people
who might have been just laid off.
I know you wrote about that, or just haven't been able to find
jobs even after a year, year anda half, two years and they're
(36:37):
losing confidence. Do you have any advice on what
they can do to like evaluate what they're doing or keep the
momentum, just not lose confidence?
So I think again, it goes back to what are my strikes, what are
my skills, what are my talents, Where is the best place for me
(36:58):
to be using these and then finding where those there we go
opportunities and then using your network.
I thought that people use their networks as much as they could,
Karen, because what we find is that many times about 80% of
jobs are found through a network.
(37:20):
It's called the hidden job market.
I can't agree with that more. Yeah.
So build that network. Now, it doesn't mean that you
run around to people and say, hey, get me a job.
That's a bit of a challenge. But when someone asks you,
especially in this country, whatdo you do for a living and
(37:41):
you're unemployed, there's an embarrassment and shame attached
to that, even though you probably had nothing to do with
that decision to have the unemployed unless you quit your
job because it was toxic or, youknow, other reason.
But it's really about saying, well, right now I'm between
jobs, yeah, See if that can openup a dialogue because people
(38:05):
know people. Yeah, and I also just wrote
about it. Even so, it's about how when I'm
finding guests for my podcast, very similar to companies
looking for people, one of them is network.
Because you don't know if this will become a connection down
the road. You won't get a job tomorrow
(38:28):
just by networking. But you never know.
Like expanding your network never hurts and opportunities
may come along. That's right, they do.
And so you, as you say, you justremain open to that.
And you never know who you're going to be talking to.
Or they say, well, I don't do that work, but a friend of mine
(38:49):
does. Would you like to talk to them?
Sure. And the other thing is dealing
with rejection. I mean, let's face it, there's
going to be rejection in this. Hey, when I sign up to do
podcasts, do you think everyone that I replied to has me on
their show? No, Yeah, well, that's their
choice as the podcaster, and forwhatever reason I may not be the
(39:14):
type of guest they're looking for.
I'm OK with that. Yeah.
And I would like to tell my friends who are getting deflated
by rejections, you only need one.
Yes. So it's, you know, you don't
need everyone to say yes, you just need one.
And that works across the board,Karen.
It's people who are looking to find a partner.
(39:37):
I'll never find someone. I said, wait a minute.
You know, there are 8 billion people on the planet.
Yeah. How many of you want to be
married to? Yeah.
Oh, just one. I said, guess what?
The odds are in your favor then.And it's like anything else.
The odds are in your favor. Don't worry about the nose.
Yes, will come eventually and it'll be the right one.
(40:00):
And even if you get a, an acceptance, you go into the job
and you may find out, oh, this is not a match for me.
That really doing your homework about the culture.
Because a lot of times when people are looking to be hired,
that's another area that they don't educate themselves on.
(40:23):
It's like, what's the culture that I fit best into?
And so it's looking at, OK, I want something that's collegial
or I want a job where I'm alwaystold exactly what to do.
I really don't have to think formyself and that's OK.
Then don't go into a job where they where they're expecting you
(40:43):
to do independent thinking. Yeah, I found out what I won't
enjoy as I'm doing the interviews.
So I remember I used to interview for all kinds of
business fields and then as the year progresses, I just trim
them down. And now that's why I'm doing
what I'm doing because all the other ones, I did not enjoy that
(41:05):
environment or the personalities.
So it's like you said, reflect, like ask yourself.
Yep, And the more you, you know,this goes back, wow, centuries,
if not millennia, which is know yourself.
That's where you begin anything in life.
We don't spend enough time knowing ourselves.
(41:27):
I, I spent more time in school with that.
Just who am I in all areas of mylife, not just where I, you
know, where I work or what I do for work, but just in what I
bring to the table. Yeah.
What are your strengths? That's right.
So let's see how well you know yourself, David.
(41:48):
All right, so I'm going to play a quick round of rapid fire
questions. So don't think too much.
Just got reaction. What's a small habit that made a
huge difference in your career success?
Oh, I definitely think it was being open to opportunity.
(42:08):
I think once I did that, Karen, the world opened up for me in in
just so many aspects of life, not just work, but I like you.
We talked about this. I love to travel.
And so I have a list of all the places that I want to go to.
I wanted to go to Russia, just like Petersburg, but we had a
(42:32):
trip planned to go to Alaska, OK, And we were going with a
couple who was celebrating their50th anniversary.
She couldn't get her passport because of a technicality.
Oh, OK, yeah. And I said, well, we'll still
go. Well, we get a call from the
travel agent saying, you know what, Alaska's hot ticket item.
(42:55):
Would you be willing to give up your travels to Alaska to go to
the Baltic, which includes Russia and Saint Petersburg?
Wow. So we said of course, and not
only that they flew us over first class.
Wow, OK. We go to Saint Petersburg and
they offer two excursions. One of them is to go to the
(43:16):
Hermitage, which was on my list of places to go to, and you
could go during the day where there were thousands of other
tourists. Or you could go for an evening
excursion in which a Symphony would do a private concert for
you. And then the group from the ship
would be broken up into groups of 10 and on a private tour of
(43:40):
the Hermitage to see artwork. Wow.
Now there is being open to opportunity.
I I know. Oh, no, no.
We want to go to, you know, Alaska.
That's it. Yeah, yeah.
But Alaska was never on my wish list.
The Hermitage was wow. I mean it.
(44:01):
It's just I could tell so many stories about how just being
open to opportunity has made an incredible difference in my
life. And another thing that I can't
agree more on. OK, next one.
Worst career advice you have heard?
Oh that's easy. Someone who was a so-called
(44:24):
specialist, OK, who said when you go into an interview make it
sound like you're the perfect person for that position,
whether it is a match for you ornot.
Just be whatever they want you to be.
(44:44):
I think, OK, worst career advice.
And this was someone who was supposedly well known in the
field and I thought, oh, I couldsee where that would take you.
Yeah, but certain certain fieldsmay require that personality.
OK, one thing you would never say in a job interview.
When they ask you tell me about a, a weakness that you have, I'm
(45:09):
a perfectionist. No, that is, that's a well.
No, yeah. That is A and so that'll win the
hot water every time. Actually, what we say is I'm an
imperfectionist. Yeah, OK.
I mean, I would an interview, but it's the truth.
OK. Focus on the fact that we are
(45:31):
imperfect now. What we do then is we come up
with compensation or how we dealwith it.
So if I'm not good at something,well, you know, I hire someone
who is good at it. So if if I have a business of my
own and I'm not good in accounting, guess what?
I'll hire an accountant to do that.
It's great answer, great advice.If you had ten extra hours a
(45:56):
week, how would you use them? And then the first thought that
crossed my mind, Karen, was justliving just because one, one of
the lessons that I've learned inlife is how to live in the
moment. For instance, if I was
travelling, you know, I'd, I'd build more travel time into
(46:18):
what? Because next month I'm on my way
to Italy and France. For real.
For real. OK.
And there's these that I've beento before.
Gee, if I had, for instance, 10 more hours a week in Paris, oh,
I could Add all kinds of activities that would fill that
with working. The other thing that I do
(46:39):
besides speaking like this and doing career counseling is I
write. And that was another area where
I was told when I was younger, you'll never be a writer.
You you really have bad writing skills.
And I thought published 3 books and I've got two more on the
way. So I'd probably spend more time
(47:01):
devoting myself to writing. I had that.
So that what I enjoy in life I would just add to, that's all.
Yeah. Like I relate to that.
I would do those things, but better or more in depth, not
necessarily just adding more things.
What's the point of doing 10 million things if you only did
(47:22):
the surface right? Right.
OK last one, what's a completelynon career related skill you
wish you had? Being able to address any
problems I have on the computer.I am not a computer savvy
(47:44):
person, so we're talking about finding people who are my next
door neighbor. Anytime I have a problem my
computer, I say hey Bob, you need to come over.
I said in my next life I'm goingto come back as a computer
programmer. I understand this better.
I, I just, with my personality type, I'm just not a high tech
(48:08):
person. I can use things, but you know,
my computer stops working. What do I do?
I call my neighbor. Yes, find the people around you
who are better than you at the things you're not so good at.
And that's your network, OK? Yeah, yeah.
It's the network of people who know how to do what you don't
(48:28):
know how to do. Exactly.
Yes, not everyone has to do everything and be perfect at it,
but that's life, right? That's right.
We're all not all Renaissance people.
There are a few of them like that, like Thomas Jefferson, he
was one. But they're few and far between,
and they're probably one in a billion that have that ability,
(48:49):
right? More than a billion.
Yeah. Well, it was very, very nice
talking to you, David. It reinforces certain things
that I know, but it opened up a lot more areas of career that I
haven't thought about, and I'm sure our listeners would agree
with that. And in along with those, Karen,
I do have a book that is called Out of Work Not Out of Worth
(49:13):
navigating the emotional side ofjob loss.
So it talks about many of the topics that we discussed, like
the first one is huge, that chapter, self-confidence.
Yeah, yeah. And it's something that you have
to not lose it, otherwise yourself will crumble.
It does. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Thank you so much for being on mine, Bland.
(49:35):
I really enjoyed talking to you,David.
Likewise, Karen. It's like we've known each other
forever. I know, and it felt like I also
had a coaching session with you,too.
Thank you. Thank you very much.
You're quite welcome, have a great day.
Thanks for listening to this episode of Mind One.
(49:56):
If you enjoyed the conversation,don't forget to follow and share
it with anyone who needs to hearit.
And let's keep the conversation going.
Connect with me on LinkedIn or leave me a comment.
Until next time, stay curious, keep exploring, and let's
continue to blend our minds and discover what's possible.
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