September 20, 2025 • 43 mins
From leading roles in global advertising agencies to building his own consultancy in Tokyo, Cairo Marsh has seen firsthand how brands win or lose when it comes to customer connection.
In this conversation, Cairo shares how his drive for growth brought him from New York to Japan, and how working across cultures has sharpened his perspective on marketing, brand, and customer experience.
Highlights from our conversation:
Why creating mutual value is the foundation of lasting brand-consumer relationships
His customer experience stories in Japan - the pinnacle of customer service
Why the “customer journey” can be a fallacy, and better ways to think about engagement
How consistency in what a brand stands for builds lasting trust
The importance of engaging your audience today while preparing for tomorrow’s transaction
How brand connection is a leading indicator of sales later
Cairo reminds us that customer experience isn’t about following a rigid playbook or hitting quarterly sales—it’s about creating connections that last .
“If we make life a little bit less frustrating on a daily basis, even though it doesn’t seem like you did a lot, it means a lot. Because it impacts so many people.”
👉 For companies serious about building loyalty, this episode is a call to think deeper about how you engage your customers—and how that shapes your brand’s future.
About Cairo Marsh
Cairo is the founder and executive partner of relativ*, a Tokyo-based marketing consultancy specializing in relationship-driven brand strategies. With over a decade of experience working with Fortune 500 companies, Cairo leads teams creating unique brand experiences that foster stronger connections between companies and their customers. Originally from the Bronx, New York, Cairo took a bold move over 10 years ago when he moved to Japan, where he previously held senior positions at major agencies including DDB and FCB. Relativ* has received recognition as Japan/Korea Independent Agency of the Year from Campaign Asia for two consecutive years, reflecting Cairo's commitment to innovative marketing solutions that prioritize authentic customer relationships over transactional approaches.
You can connect with Cairo on LinkedIn: cairokenanmarsh and https://relativ.com/
Mind Blend is all about real experiences and meaningful conversations—through sharing these insights, I hope to inspire and empower you as you navigate your unique journey.
I’d also love to hear from you! What resonated with you today? What topics or guests should we feature next? Let’s keep the conversation going—connect with me on LinkedIn @ karenkchong and @Mind-Blend
Follow Mind Blend to get notified when new episodes are released!
Until next time, stay curious, keep exploring, and let’s continue to blend our minds and discover what’s possible.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:01):
We all have brands that we absolutely love and brands that
are just not quite there. The difference isn't always a
product is how they make us feel, how they connect with us.
My guest today, Kyra Marsh, has spent years unpacking that very
difference from the New York advertising scene to Tokyo,
where the customer is God. What he's discovered goes beyond
(00:22):
campaigns and KPIs, is about rethinking how we engage with
the audience. And once you hear it, you may
never look at your favorite, or least favorite friends the same
way again. Welcome to the show Mind Blind.
I'm your host, Karen Chong, and I'll be diving into the minds of
(00:43):
incredible people, each an expert in their very own way.
Together we'll uncover insights and share ideas so you can be
inspired and empowered to navigate your own unique journey
in life. Ready to get curious and
discover what's possible? Let's blend.
Joining me today is Cairo Marsh.Cairo is someone whose marketing
(01:06):
journey has taken him from the hustle of New York City to the
precision of Japanese customer experience.
Having managed many big name agencies in New York, he has
made his way over to the other side of the world and is now the
founder and executive partner ofRelative in Tokyo, a marketing
agency that focuses on one specific aspect, customer
(01:28):
experience. Now how did that happen?
We'll find out. Hi, Karen.
Hey Karen, thank you for having me on.
I'm really looking forward to this conversation.
Me too. I've been looking forward to it
for weeks now. Tell us about your journey from
New York to Tokyo. Like what happened?
(01:49):
What were you doing? Oh, nothing super exciting.
And, you know, I wish there was some wildly exciting story that
drives it. I think.
I think I was really just at thepoint in my life, 'cause I'm a
born and raised New Yorker. I grew up in New York my whole
life. You know, I'm originally from
the Bronx, lived there till I was about 2526, moved to
(02:09):
Brooklyn, lived there for 10 years.
And you know, I was really just sort of at the point in my life
where I was looking for a change, looking for a
difference. Not because there's anything
wrong with New York. I love New York, still the best
city in the world if you ask me.But I, you know, you, you start
to look for different influences, you look for growth.
And I think sometimes growth we think of in a career context.
(02:31):
And for me there was opportunities to grow in a
personal context that I thought Japan and Tokyo had to offer.
I originally came out to Japan for a friend's wedding a few
years before I actually relocated and, and moved out
there. And that experience of just
being out there and, and, and the cultural differences and
(02:52):
the, the challenge of trying to navigate a environment that's
intuitively not your own, I found really fascinating.
And so when I was in that point in time in my career in New York
where I felt like I really needed to change and I needed to
be challenged in a different way, Tokyo just made a lot of
sense to me. Yeah.
So you moved out to Tokyo. Were you pursuing the same kind
(03:14):
of career or did you like start from scratch?
So I've worked in advertising mywhole career.
So before moving to Tokyo, I worked in agencies in New York
for about 15 years or so. And then when I went out to
Tokyo and I and I didn't go out there without a job, I went out
there with the intention of the experience of living outside of
my bubble would be the most important thing.
(03:36):
And so I was willing to do otherthings.
I had hoped to still be able to work in advertising, but I was
like, well, if I need to teach English, if I need to do
something else, just anything that allows me to sort of extend
that time out there, I'd be willing to do.
And it took me about six months to find a job.
And, you know, I was on a tourist visa.
So I, I stayed tourist visa, youget 3 months.
(03:59):
So I, I did my three months tourist visa and I left the
country and then I came back anddid another three months.
And at the end of that second three months, I was able to find
a job at an agency, which is as much as I could hope for.
That's great. Yeah, that's amazing.
Cause teaching English, I was there myself.
Yeah, that's what I did as a part time.
And it's the easiest, like highest paying job for a English
(04:22):
speaker, like if you're just starting out.
So you got an agency job and what made you decide to find
your own company? Oh boy.
Review as little or as much as you can.
No, but there's lots of drivers,right?
One one is I had always wanted my own company from the time I
was a little kid. It was something that, you know,
(04:43):
growing up in the Bronx and me and my older sister used to talk
about how, OK, we're going to dothis and you'll run this part of
the company and I'll do that part of the company.
It was always a dream and ambition like that was always in
my road map or path. I think the, the opportunities
that I ended up being presented when I was in Japan.
So I was at this agency and I was there for about 6 years.
(05:05):
I was actually running their office in Tokyo for the last
three years. And, and it sort of came to a
point where I think the vision for where the agency wanted to
go and the vision for where I wanted to go just didn't line
up. So it was it we that that road
had run its course, if you will,you know, and fortunately I had
(05:26):
the opportunity to be a, a potential client, not a client
of that old agency, but to a potential client to, to sort of
springboard my own sort of organization.
And so I did. And, you know, it was all above
the board, like I talked to my old agency about here's what I'm
going to do when we tried to make sure that no one would get
damaged in that sort of process.But it it was really a bit of
(05:49):
serendipity where my vision and their vision didn't line up
anymore and we were able to workout something amicable.
Unfortunately, there was also a client that I could use as a
springboard to to start the company.
Yeah, yeah, networking, springboarding, so important and
serendipity to. Yeah, no.
So like the whole phrase that I think is the world's truest
(06:09):
phrase is luck, is opportunity meets preparation.
You have to, yeah, you have to be prepared in order to do the
work or meet the opportunity. But opportunity does have to
present itself. Yeah, and you have to know when
to seize it, like keep your eyesopen and seize it.
So I know that relative is, likeI said in the intro, it focuses
(06:31):
specifically on relationship. Has it always been that way?
Yeah, that was the whole intention 'cause I, I, I just
think it's a lesson. I believe there's been repeated
in multiple phases in my life, going back to when I, you know,
first used to work for my grandfather in the Bronx to
literally the, the agency I was working at in Tokyo just before
(06:53):
that. Nothing good happens if you
don't have positive relationships.
Nothing good happens. Like if you're in a company
where people are working againsteach other, put all the hours
you want into it. Your company's going to have
limited success if you and your clients aren't on the same page
about what success looks like and what value looks like.
Put all the effort you wanted toit, you're going to have limited
(07:14):
real return come out of that. So I think in starting relative
the whole life there is that I and just radically or
religiously or whatever R word you want to use, committed to
the concept that that everythinghas to be driven through a
relationship lens. We're working in collaboration
with our clients, where our clients are working in
(07:35):
collaboration or in a sense of Co creation with their
consumers, and that becomes the foundation for everything to do.
And I think if you do that, whatyou end up doing is work is more
rewarding, the the results more positive.
And I think it's just a better, healthier environment.
And I think how you work is to me more important as as the work
(07:56):
that you actually do, being ableto work in a positive
environment. Now I know that Japanese people
value relationships a lot as. Well.
In personal life and work life too, was the concept, because
it's so much of A given, was it difficult to kind of make that
(08:17):
your pitch? I don't know how.
How does it sound now when I sayit?
Well, to me, it makes a whole lot of sense because in worlds
outside of Japan, yeah, we can definitely use some, you know,
minimizing friction. Like I London definitely can do
some of that. So yeah.
(08:37):
I, I think like to me at the endof the day, I think the, I think
the pitch, I think the idea of relationships is a given, but I
don't think that everyone reallydoes it.
Obviously in Japan, like you said, relationships really
matter in the contents of your network and networks are built
over time and there's a sense oftrust that comes out of that and
(08:57):
the way that work happens. But I don't necessarily thinking
in Japan that it's always a matter of, well, what's my
relationship with my consumer orwhat's my relationship with my
suppliers. There is a sense sometimes of
hierarchy and dominance in placeinto things.
I think the way that we try to work is to try to really embed
that sense of again, like how doyou how do you create mutual
(09:18):
value between all parties at allpoints of interactions at all
times to everything that we do. And I think that is I think that
is important. And I think that's a value add
to to what happens in the Japan market in, in most markets.
I do think though fundamentally I don't, I don't overly expect
people to buy into my pitch. I don't overly expect people to
(09:41):
buy into my philosophy. It's I expect people to
understand who I am. If you work with someone, this
is who I am. This is who we are as a company.
This is what we do. The most important thing for my
clients to understand is that we're going to go find you
customers. We're going to deliver value for
you and we're going to fight foryou 'cause we believe in you.
This is why we do. You don't necessarily need to
(10:03):
believe what I believe, and that's OK.
Yeah. I guess the first step would be
you know, getting them the sales, getting them the
acquisition, getting them the sales.
And for a lot of people who are we may not be familiar with
experience, customer experience,they may think of it like
customer service, you know, we call support.
(10:24):
How would you distinguish the two?
I think it's really interesting because I think it was a company
at the heart of what we do is sort of experience design,
helping to plan out the right experiences across the ecosystem
for for for our clients, customers.
I think there is absolutely a bias in the industry sometimes
skew that towards customer service and think of it through
(10:46):
that lens. But I think all touch points
matter. So when you the, the ultimate
thing that I think all companies, all business want to
do is you want to create a positive impression in your
customer's mind at every point of interaction.
So as if they trust you So what they want to buy from you.
So as the customer prefers you over other options, that doesn't
(11:07):
happen just at customer service.If your experience and your plan
for that is not holistic, then you're missing opportunities.
Yeah, I have experienced something.
It was opening a bank account, so it was filled with friction.
It was anything but it was filled with friction.
I have to call them. So calling, talking to them
(11:30):
online over chat and going to the branch, the three are not
connected at all. Like they don't even see the
same person so. Was that in in Japan?
That was in London. London, OK, OK.
Yeah, I think Japan from my experience, you it the things
will be smoother, but I do feel like they will tell you no in a
(11:54):
very respectful way. If the that's not how the
company's flow goes, they can't do a whole lot to help a
customer like oh, I can't I was not able to fill this form
online because my name doesn't fit the form.
Yep. And I don't know like may or may
not be able to solve that problem for them.
(12:15):
No, exactly. No.
I think customer service and customer support and
interactions in person in Japan are probably best in the world.
I do think that if you look at digital experiences, sometimes
Japan has historically favored functionality over sort of the
overall user experience. And how do I make this a little
bit smoother or easier or frictionless?
And I think that's still an opportunity.
(12:36):
I, I like, I, one of the things I'm personally very, very
bullish on is I just think Japanhas so many opportunities.
I know a lot of people forget about Japan because, oh, it's an
ageing population or, you know, it's not growing in a certain
way. But I just think Japan is full
of opportunities to, to capitalize.
And it's such a strong foundation as it applies to
functionality, technology as a brand that as Japan, I think
(13:02):
takes a better leadership position in the world around
things like customer experience,around business offering as a
whole. I just think there's so much
opportunities that Japan has to offer.
Yeah, I think they already have the right mentality.
So it's really just whether it be education or or equipping
them with the right technology or know how.
Yeah, like I would guess it's not easy starting a business.
(13:26):
What was the most difficult thing you have to do starting
relative? Boy, I think it it plays to your
strengths, right? So I'm a I'm a marketing guy and
so solving client problems, I'm not going to say is easy.
I don't want to take it for granted, but it's natural for me
to do that. The hardest part is when you
play to your weaknesses like, oh, spreadsheets, we have to, we
(13:48):
have to reconcile what we spent all the bookkeeping and admins.
Things are not necessarily by strengthening.
There's so much of it like oh, these these government wants
these forms and that forms and all of that sort of
administrative work that comes along with it.
That was something that, you know, at a certain level I think
I've had to get better at and I think I've gotten a lot better
(14:10):
at it. I'm probably still not, it still
doesn't come natural to me. So managing sort of the, the,
the call it the bureaucratic or administrative side of some of
the work, particularly if it applies to interactions with
government entities, etcetera, etcetera.
That's probably been the hardest, but you know, doing the
work to me like I I one of the things we try to do as a
(14:31):
company, right or wrong, some people might think it's wrong.
We really do try to focus our effort and our investment into
the business problem solving outside of what we do versus we
build up a huge back office. It does a lot of paperwork and
things like that because I thinkthat I want to focus on being an
(14:52):
organization that creates value versus manages stuff, you know,
So we try to minimize through our systems and processes what
we have to manage versus what wecan actually create for others.
Yeah, like you can outsource that or find someone who's
better than you at something then.
No, we, we definitely, you know,we have, we have a operations
(15:12):
team to help support us now thatwe've grown.
Like when we first started, it was only five of us.
So it wasn't, we didn't have that luxury, but now we're about
35 people or so. So we have an operations team to
help support us and we have someoutside vendors.
But even still, as we designed the organization, I we designed
it to not require an enormous amount of bureaucracy.
(15:32):
So we don't want to put in processes that require great new
papers to be managed versus new value to be created.
That's good. You're living what you preach.
You want a good experience for your people.
Yeah, trying, trying. So have you noticed any shifts
in the market? We start with Japan, but maybe
in the world, the shifts of how people's appetite or desire for
(15:57):
good experience, any patterns that you notice?
From a consumer perspective, youmean in terms of what they're
looking for? I think, I don't know.
I, I think like it's very interesting because Japan is the
experience, drivers are motivators of consumers in Japan
is probably different than it isin the West.
I, I don't think Japanese consumers are as driven by
(16:20):
experience outside of the interpersonal face to face
experience. But I'm online if I'm
interacting with the experience part is probably less important
than the information, probably because people have been biased
towards again, functionality, information consumption and
management. I do think, I do think there is
somewhat of a shift in that where there's increasingly
(16:42):
interest and, and how do we makea better experience and how do
we make things a little bit havea little bit less friction going
forward. And I think that's starting to
come into play. But I don't think it's a huge
factor yet. I, I do think that everyone is
aware that the world is changingrapidly as it applies to
(17:04):
technology, whether whether that's AI or anything else.
And I think that I think that all users, I think this is
probably true globally as well as in Japan, are looking to see
how do we adopt those technologies in a way that makes
my life easier. And I don't, I don't know, I
don't know that people have solved that, you know, aside
(17:26):
from using, let's say, chat GT place in terms of searching for
things, which I think is OK, butthat's not really that
revolutionary. It's it's a nicer search engine,
which isn't the point I think ofartificial intelligence, but I
think people are searching and try to figure out ways how would
these tools start to change my life going forward?
Yeah, If you're just using AI tosearch, it's definitely under
(17:49):
utilizing it. But we're still in like baby
infant stage of AI adoption. The other day I saw this
Japanese commercial. I think it's like system
implementation, OK type company and it was like AI all over in
ATV commercial. Think about how much they have
to spend on that. No, absolutely.
(18:10):
But I, I think AI is interestingbecause it's a big selling
proposition. And I think the the key part
again is, is going back to your original questions, how does
that going to affect the end user more and make their life
better? And I think that's still, it's
still a bit unclear. And I think a lot of companies
even how they position their tools, whether they let their
tools leverage AI or they don't.I don't think the articulation
(18:31):
is so much how we're making yourlife easier as much as, oh, look
what the cool technology. Can be.
And that's, you know, but we're figuring that out.
Like you said, it's early stages.
Yeah, like it may be an easier process for an easier touch
point for a broken process, maybe.
Yeah, you sell to jump the groups.
Or like to me, at the end of theday, all new tech, all
(18:53):
technology, all technology. Sorry this is a bit of a random
rant, please forgive. Me.
The the most important thing in life, the most valuable thing in
life is time, right, Because time is the only it's the most
finite commodity that we never get back.
So I think we value in my mind is ultimately measured and saved
time or time that I could spend doing anything something else,
(19:15):
right. So if I don't, if I can drive a
car instead of a horse and buggy, I can get places quicker,
I can save time. There's value in the car, right?
Like that's the value in it is, is what it saves you in time.
And I think as we bring these new technologies to the fore,
the question is ultimately for the end user is how are you
freeing me up? How are you freeing my time up
(19:37):
so I can do more things and I can be more empowered.
And I think that's ultimately where we need to get to, if any
technology. Now switching gears a little
bit, I want to hear about your experience being the customer in
Japan versus having to treat customers 'cause I feel like the
two are very different. Tell me, can you give me a
(19:59):
little bit more about that, likein terms of what you're looking
for? Like when you are being served,
how does that make you feel in Japan?
Well, Japan has the best customer service in the world,
generally speaking, except for when you go to the bank, which
is why when I was at, when you were telling that London Bank
story, I was like, is that, doesthat sound like a Japan thing?
(20:22):
Have happened. I think I can.
Imagine Japan banks for all the technology that we have now are
super analog, you know, and it'sstill, it's can be more of a
process than than I expected. And then I think a lot of people
would expect. But in general, being a, a
customer in Japan is, I think it's, it's the pinnacle of sort
(20:46):
of respect. I think there's a phrase, and I
don't remember exactly how to say it in in in Japanese, but
it's essentially translates as the customer's God, not the
customer's king, not the customer's, always right now,
the customer's. God.
And I think that that's how you're actually treated and,
and, and supported. And I think people go out of
their way sometimes too much in a way that's maybe we've gone
(21:09):
past the point of helpfulness, but it's always it's always with
that intention of treating people right.
And I think that I really think that, you know, that's again,
one of the lessons that Japan can teach the world around like,
you know, how to how to, how to service people in a way that
that that feels appreciated and respectful.
Yeah, Speaking of that, I remember I was leaving a hotel.
(21:31):
It was snowing. I think it was Hokkaido or the
Northeast. The people, the staff, they were
like waving your bus or waving your car as they're saying
goodbye to you. But it was freezing, OK?
And they were in skirts and juststockings.
So something like that do make you feel like you're gone.
(21:53):
One, one of the things that I find incredible, like, and I, I
have this coming up in a couple weeks.
Like usually in Japan, you work for a company, you go for like
an annual health check, right? And they, I mean, compared to
like, I'm not trying to embarrass any other countries
out there, but compared to the American health system, it's,
it's amazing. Like they check everything and
(22:13):
like one day you're doing, you're getting X-rays, you're
getting Ekgs, you're getting, dothe barium test so they can look
at your whole digestive tract. They do everything.
It's an amazing, you know, full body sort of check.
But the thing that really amazedme about it the first time I
went is they also had someone that guide you through every
(22:34):
station like, oh, excuse me now it's time for the blood work.
And they'd walk you by and get your.
Blood work. Great.
Are you done? Are you OK?
Let's go check the eyesight now.I'm like, you're like, what is
this? Like, you know what I mean?
Like the level of service. I'm like, am I in a spa at the
doctor's office? What's going on there is I found
it incredible. It was incredible.
Now what about being on the other side, having to serve your
(22:58):
clients well? Look, I think the good news is
I'm not Japanese, right? So, so no one expects me to get
that right at that level like Japanese people have a
realistic. Expectation of.
What what foreigners are are trained for, if you will.
So, but but I think for me at least, the thing that I always
(23:19):
try to convince everybody is that I'm here to fight for them.
Again, you may not love exactly how I do it or you may not love
you know how I say it, or you may not love you know, the way
it presents. But you have to understand the
core value that I'm going to every work assignment with that
we're doing together is that I'mhere to do whatever it's going
(23:40):
to take to make sure that you come out as a, as a, as a
winner. And I think what I try to do is
I don't try to match the, the cultural inner of Japan, 'cause
I can't, I'm from the Bronx, youknow what I mean?
Like I can't but, but I can't match that energy.
But I try to make sure people understand what I'm fighting for
(24:01):
in my own way, you know, And I think generally, like I find
people in Japan, they understandthat, right?
They understand that you won't behave a certain way.
But if they understand your commitment, they understand
their about your value, then people understand what you're
about. So that's what that's what I try
to do. That's why as a principle, like
(24:24):
in my company we have people from, you know, I don't say
every culture, but we've got a lot of people from a lot of
different places for a 35 personorganization.
But I try to, the main thing we have to do when we work for
clients is convince our clients and and I convince them in terms
of selling them, but to convey that we are doing this for them
(24:45):
and it's all about them. I think that's the critical
part. Now your clients are are they
like Japanese companies or foreign companies trying to
break into the market of Japan? Most of our clients are, I'd
say, established international companies in Japan.
OK. So like from an employee
(25:06):
perspective, a lot of their teamwill be by nature Japanese, but
the company itself may be a multinational corporation.
Cause the reason I ask that is, well, maybe it's not so relevant
anymore, but I'll ask it anyway 'cause I want to see like for
companies who want to target Japan as a market.
Yep. And what kind of things do they
have to be mindful of? I just, how do you say the most
(25:30):
important thing that I think that I'm trying to, I'm trying
to try to condense this thought.I just think the most important
thing is that people have to understand that Japan has its
own values and its own energy and that when you come into
Japan, you have to adapt to that.
Now, that's true of every market, I think to some extent.
But I think what are the key differences is that unlike, I
(25:54):
don't know, and I don't want to single out a specific country
and get it wrong, but I think a lot of countries because of
colonialism, imperialism, have taken cues from the West And so
that the model and the fit with the way the Western world works
and the way that they work sort of aligned better.
Japan didn't go through that. So Japan's like we've built it
(26:15):
on our own. You're going to have to fit with
our system a little bit. And I think sometimes too, like
if I'm a global, you know, FMCG brand and I'm headquartered in
London or New York and I come upwith this campaign, this
campaign will resonate in a lot of different markets all the
way. Resonates here, resonates in
that market. Why doesn't it resonate in
(26:35):
Japan? It's not because Japan is
inherently difficult. It's Japan.
You have to adapt a little bit more to the Japanese environment
than you do and other markets, even though they all had their
own distinct culture, but they're just used to being a
little bit more flexible to the Western way of working.
Have you seen any like campaign gone wrong?
(26:58):
Oh, just probably 1,000,000. I see some people, what's when
you come to mind? Like I try, I always try not to
be specific 'cause I don't want anyone get mad at.
You don't name don't name the brand.
No, but like so. But I, I tell you this, so I
think this is really interesting.
We, a competitive agency of ours.
We, we shared a client back whenI was at my old agency before,
(27:20):
before I started a relative, theclient really wanted to do a
Western style ad for, for, for their campaign.
And you know, I think we, my oldcompany, we're sort of splitting
that difference, right? We, we're an international
(27:41):
agency in Japan, so you have theability to do Western style
work, but you also try to do something locally.
And I think that the client wasn't that happy with the
concept we presented. So they moved over to work with
the Japanese agency, one of the largest Japanese agencies in,
in, in Japan. But the work that the agency did
(28:02):
was so not. It wasn't suited for the Japan
market. It was like a Japanese imitation
of a Western ad. So it didn't even look like a
Great Western ad. It just looked really out of
place to. Me.
They're here or there. Yeah, Like what's, what is this
like, like, like 'cause you knowwhat I mean?
(28:24):
It was, it was very, it was veryodd and confusing, but I think
it's because they were trying tostraddle sort of cultural lines
and gaps. And I, I, I don't know.
And I think that comes from sometimes like the, the, the
clients like what we want to position ourselves this way.
And so everyone is trying to make that happen.
And I think the reality is you should always position yourself
(28:46):
around what is your audience. Need like.
You know, as a, as a brand, thisis what I offer, this is what I
stand for, absolutely. But how do I get you, whether
you're a Japanese woman or a housewife in Chicago or a banker
in New York or a a business person in Bangkok, it doesn't
matter. I have to then go, how do I get
(29:06):
you to understand what Ioffer? And I have to work around that
context, not be a bit rigid. And I think where work is work
goes wrong. And that sort of cultural sense
is when we become too rigid about how we're trying to look
versus how how are we trying to connect with our audience.
So you having managed operationsin your other agencies before,
(29:30):
I'm sure numbers means a lot to you.
So how are there any indicators that you can see that the
customer experience is improvingbesides the sales numbers?
You know, there's obviously a lot of people use NPS as an
indicator of that, you know, NetPromoter score, which is really
(29:51):
designed to say, you know, how much people have if you, I think
I think that's a valid way to look at it.
And I think brand satisfaction, one of the things that we
personally look at is we look atsomething that we call
connectivity. And connectivity is literally
designed to to measure how connected a brand feels, how
(30:11):
connected does a consumer feel with that particular brand,
especially relative to the competition.
What we found is sort of the brand connection is a leading
indicator of sales later. Right, so.
Sell sales is great, but sales is a lagging indicator.
If you understand whether or notyou're connecting, whether
you're resonating, and then if you're not well, you can still
(30:34):
pivot. If you wait, then yes, the sales
will be lower and they'll be disappointed.
So we use connectivity, which isa quantitative study as well to
sort to be able to measure that and be able to help our clients
sort of understand it and and anticipate potential issues.
Is that something that relativesdeveloped?
(30:56):
Yeah, it's, it's something that came it, it, it comes out of the
whole relationship philosophy again, we really believe it.
And, and the reason why we develop connectivity is, look, I
can sit here and I can tell you relationships are important or
relationships drive business. Relationships are not.
If I can't prove it quantitatively, then who cares?
You know what I mean? I got, I got a lot, I got lots
of philosophies I can share withyou.
(31:17):
But like at the end of the day, if we're going to do business,
you know, together, I have to beable to say, well, the reason
why we work this way is the results you get.
So we, we've spent, boy, I don'tknow, probably about four to
five years developing the actualtool, basically collecting data
year over year and understandingtrends and patterns against that
(31:38):
to sort of formulate the the waythat we build and deploy
connectivity. Wow.
I wanted to ask you for companies who still think of
sales relationship with their customers in the more
transactional unit, what would you suggest that they start
doing besides talking to you? Yeah, look, I think, I think
(32:01):
transactions matter, right? Transactions absolutely matter.
We've got to make money and we don't need to make money in
three years. We need to make money today.
So I I don't, I don't expect people to do anything different.
I or rather, I don't expect people to change their focus.
What I always try to tell peoplethis, how are you engaging with
(32:24):
your audience so that while you create a transaction today,
you're also creating a preference for tomorrow?
So one of the ways that we try to encourage our clients to
think is through this lens of what we call sort of the
connection journey. One of the things that I hate as
a as a construct is the whole customer journey.
Customer journey is like to me, a fallacy that that some
(32:47):
marketing guy made-up because customers don't go on journeys.
Brands want to go somewhere, businesses want to connect.
So as you're selling, how are you also building connections
along the way? That's what I would suggest
people to think about. Not stop selling, but make sure
you're connecting along the way so you're making selling easier
and more efficient, faster and more likely to to repeat.
(33:09):
Yeah. Like a repeat customer is worth
so much and the cost of acquire,yeah, like it's the cost of the
repeat sale is so much lower. Absolutely.
And and I just think every dollar you spend you how do you
say it? If I pay $1000 to get a thousand
(33:29):
$1500 worth for sales, well that's great.
I guess that's positive ROI. But if I always have to spend
that $1000 to get that $1500 of sales, then I'm never going to
be able to grow. Now next time if I could spend
800 and get 1500, next time if Icould spend 700 and 1500, then
my business is on a different trajectory, you know?
Yeah. So definitely forward-looking is
paving the way for or a repeat customer base.
(33:52):
Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely.
Right, so for this last part, want to play something fun or
ask you some quick reperfier questions?
So OK if you could ban one overused marketing buzzword
besides customer journey. I gave it away.
What would you say? Can I come back to that one?
(34:13):
I'm stuck. I still have to.
Can I still have the customer Journeyman?
Alright, go to the next questionon me.
I'm sorry. What was the most Japanese
customer experience you have had?
There's so many, I think that, you know, every time you go to a
store in Japan, like the level of service that you get, the
patients that you get the, the care that you get if you buy
(34:34):
something and they wrap it up. It's just, it's amazing every
single time And it's it's incredible the amount of care
and dedication that that people put into taking care of their
customers. Yeah, yeah.
I have a funny story I wanna share.
Yeah, please. I remember buying like
self-serve at a convenience store.
So the staff asked me, do you want to like, is it take away or
(34:56):
are you eating it now? No, I said take away.
And then I was like, what's gonna be the difference, right?
Like, right. So they put it in this paper
stand and they have like a wafercone.
They put the wafer cone on it and put it in a bag.
So by the time I get home, this thing would still be intact.
(35:19):
To me, that would always be the story that I tell if you ask me
that. Yeah, I think that's, it's, it's
amazing how, how people care about that, you know?
So I wish more countries would do that.
Absolutely. Next one one non negotiable
habit that you have picked up after moving to Japan.
After moving to Japan, I think just being politer a little bit,
(35:41):
I think, you know, I'm from New York.
We're not very polite. I think it's, I think Japan,
people are always respect and it's weird 'cause now when I
visit New York, you're like, excuse me, People get weird.
Like, excuse me, you don't say that around here.
But I think it, it just sort of becomes part of your DNA, You
know, it's, it's just try to be a little bit extra polite and
considerate of others. Great one brand you think
(36:04):
absolutely nails customer experience.
I think there's a few brands andI think I'll, I'll, I'll use
Patagonia as a example. I think the reason why I think
Patagonia is really good at whatthey do is 'cause I think
customer experience doesn't juststart from the bells and
whistles of, of, of you know, service points or, or, or, or
(36:25):
interface design. It comes from what you stand
for, right? And Patagonia has a clear
position of what they actually stand for.
And then through their whole experience that is consistent of
what they stand for. Whether you're returning
clothing, whether you're buying clothing, that sense of care for
the environment is so consistent.
And I think every time I engage or someone engages with
(36:48):
Patagonia, they're going to get that same consistent experience
in a way that I think is fantastic.
Great, I am not a customer yet but I will start paying more
attention to them. OK, next one.
The worst experience you've had as a customer?
It doesn't have to be. In Japan, yeah, I'll tell you
like so this is probably with mycell phone provider in the US,
(37:13):
right And so I've had a even with in Japan, I maintain my US
cell phone and for some reason, I don't know why, for some
reason they stopped charging me my credit card.
So I and I so I come to the US and I like the what's my US
phone number's not working what's going on?
And I go to the store and the guy in the store is like, oh,
(37:34):
you got a call, but I can't helpyou.
I I, what do you mean you can't help me?
This is the store, this is the place like you got to call these
guys and then I call them up andbasically I don't know what
happened but somehow there was an issue with charging my credit
card and they didn't charge it and then so they cut it off I'm
like, OK, cool. Well, can you turn it back on?
I'll pay you the money right now.
Like, yeah, but we need the money first.
(37:55):
But yeah, but you'll turn it back on after I do it.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, for sure, for sure, for sure.
Finally. Like it took like a couple of
days for them to make sure for them to verify that they had the
payment and things like that. And then I'm like, cool, like,
great. Thank you.
And I'm like, yeah, well, what about my number?
Like, oh, well, you now you got to call somebody else.
I'm like, what do you mean I gotto call someone else?
Like this is the whole reason I'm trying to get this worked
(38:17):
out. At the end of the day, they they
never gave me my number bags. Oh, but the reason I don't even
care about that, the reason there's a lack of transparency
that says I went to them becauseI was like, hey, my phone's not
working. I need this number.
You can lay out that, he said. Here's what we are, here's what
we're going to do, Here's what'sgoing to.
Happen. Instead, it's like, well, what
we want's the money, and we're not going to tell you about what
(38:39):
you're going to get until after we get that.
And by the way, you're not goingto get what you want.
I know. I'm like.
That's unreal. Like I know mobile carriers are
notorious. They're they're.
Horrible. Stuff like that.
But yeah, yeah, yeah. Like, did you not think, like,
what am I trying to do? Like, why do I want to give you
money? Yeah, if I'm not going to use
this ever again. Exactly.
(39:01):
And I think the whole thing is, and this is the part where
customer service organizations sometimes fail is that they are
protecting the company. They're not looking out for the
consumer. And I get it right.
There's a lot of people who might scam you.
There's a lot of things that people worry about, especially,
you know, when you think about your company as a financial
(39:21):
instrument. But at the same time, if you're
designing your, your service organization to protect the
company versus to take care and,and, and surprise and delight
consumers, I think it's weird. You know, I was and this is a
company I was a customer of for 25 years.
We could have worked that. Now I think you know.
(39:42):
Yeah, yeah. So did you end up getting a new
a different carrier? Yeah, went to a different
carrier. Yeah, good for you.
OK, so last question, because you your company's space in
Tokyo, you live in Tokyo, I'm sure a lot of people are
jealous. So what's your favorite place to
go in Tokyo to clear your head? Tokyo's interesting because it's
(40:04):
really dense sometimes, you know, like so.
And I, and I live right in the heart of the city, but I do live
by the Imperial Palace. So I don't know you've you've
been to Tokyo, so you know the Imperial.
Palace. Yeah, it's a serene.
Yeah, it's, it's super hot 'cause there's no shade during
the summer, but on a nice fall day, just taking a walk or a run
around the Imperial Palace is very freeing 'cause you, what
(40:27):
you see for people who haven't been there, what you see is you.
It's almost like Central Park inNew York almost.
It's much smaller than Central Park, but what I mean by that is
that it's it's tree lined, but it's surrounded by sort of the
industrial skyline of the business skyline of, of Tokyo.
So as you walk around, particularly around if it's
(40:48):
around sunset ish, it's a nice view and it's a nice sort of
contrast between sort of the hustle of the city and the, the
tradition of the Imperial Palace.
But with the modernity sort of surrounding it.
Yeah, I think that's the beauty of Japan.
You see so many like historic Japanese looking architecture.
(41:09):
Yeah, next to like a modern highrise.
No, similar to London actually. There's a lot of that.
To Japan is old that way. The only thing about Japan is
that they have earthquakes. So we, we have a lot of like new
buildings that aren't always distinctive in their
architecture 'cause they're built, they're built to
withstand an earthquake versus to the like BI.
(41:30):
Well, thank you very much for having this chat with me.
Like I've been looking forward to it for weeks.
Like I said, just passionate about my companies, thinking
about customer experience instead of just transactions and
just just make us less frustrated.
Yeah, we don't need any more frustrations.
No, absolutely. And and I really appreciate
(41:50):
being on. I really enjoyed this
conversation and I think, you know, obviously if there's
anything, you know, that that I've shared people have
questions about later around experience, it's something I'm
also very passionate about as well.
You know, like the how do we, I,I believe that, you know, life
is life is complicated, but it'salso simple.
(42:10):
And like, if we make life a little bit less frustrating on a
daily basis, even though that doesn't seem like you did a lot,
that means a lot because you know that you it impacts so many
people. Yeah, What's a good way to get
in contact with you if anyone's interested?
Yeah. Well, obviously you could
contact us through our website, whichisrelative.com.
(42:31):
There's no E on relatives or relative without the e.com or
you can find me on on LinkedIn, Cairo Marsh.
I'm pretty much the only one, soI'll be there.
All right. Thank you very much.
Absolutely, Karen. Thank you.
Thanks for listening to this episode of Mine One.
Maybe enjoy the conversation. Don't forget to follow and share
(42:54):
it with anyone who needs to hearit.
And let's keep the conversation going.
Connect with me on LinkedIn or leave me a comment.
Until next time, stay curious, keep exploring, and let's
continue to plan our minds and discover what's possible.
We all have brands that we absolutely love and brands that
are just not quite there. The difference isn't always a
product is how they make us feel, how they connect with us.
My guest today, Kyra Marsh, has spent years unpacking that very
difference from the New York advertising scene to Tokyo,
where the customer is God. What he's discovered goes beyond
(00:22):
campaigns and KPIs, is about rethinking how we engage with
the audience. And once you hear it, you may
never look at your favorite, or least favorite friends the same
way again. Welcome to the show Mind Blind.
I'm your host, Karen Chong, and I'll be diving into the minds of
(00:43):
incredible people, each an expert in their very own way.
Together we'll uncover insights and share ideas so you can be
inspired and empowered to navigate your own unique journey
in life. Ready to get curious and
discover what's possible? Let's blend.
Joining me today is Cairo Marsh.Cairo is someone whose marketing
(01:06):
journey has taken him from the hustle of New York City to the
precision of Japanese customer experience.
Having managed many big name agencies in New York, he has
made his way over to the other side of the world and is now the
founder and executive partner ofRelative in Tokyo, a marketing
agency that focuses on one specific aspect, customer
(01:28):
experience. Now how did that happen?
We'll find out. Hi, Karen.
Hey Karen, thank you for having me on.
I'm really looking forward to this conversation.
Me too. I've been looking forward to it
for weeks now. Tell us about your journey from
New York to Tokyo. Like what happened?
(01:49):
What were you doing? Oh, nothing super exciting.
And, you know, I wish there was some wildly exciting story that
drives it. I think.
I think I was really just at thepoint in my life, 'cause I'm a
born and raised New Yorker. I grew up in New York my whole
life. You know, I'm originally from
the Bronx, lived there till I was about 2526, moved to
(02:09):
Brooklyn, lived there for 10 years.
And you know, I was really just sort of at the point in my life
where I was looking for a change, looking for a
difference. Not because there's anything
wrong with New York. I love New York, still the best
city in the world if you ask me.But I, you know, you, you start
to look for different influences, you look for growth.
And I think sometimes growth we think of in a career context.
(02:31):
And for me there was opportunities to grow in a
personal context that I thought Japan and Tokyo had to offer.
I originally came out to Japan for a friend's wedding a few
years before I actually relocated and, and moved out
there. And that experience of just
being out there and, and, and the cultural differences and
(02:52):
the, the challenge of trying to navigate a environment that's
intuitively not your own, I found really fascinating.
And so when I was in that point in time in my career in New York
where I felt like I really needed to change and I needed to
be challenged in a different way, Tokyo just made a lot of
sense to me. Yeah.
So you moved out to Tokyo. Were you pursuing the same kind
(03:14):
of career or did you like start from scratch?
So I've worked in advertising mywhole career.
So before moving to Tokyo, I worked in agencies in New York
for about 15 years or so. And then when I went out to
Tokyo and I and I didn't go out there without a job, I went out
there with the intention of the experience of living outside of
my bubble would be the most important thing.
(03:36):
And so I was willing to do otherthings.
I had hoped to still be able to work in advertising, but I was
like, well, if I need to teach English, if I need to do
something else, just anything that allows me to sort of extend
that time out there, I'd be willing to do.
And it took me about six months to find a job.
And, you know, I was on a tourist visa.
So I, I stayed tourist visa, youget 3 months.
(03:59):
So I, I did my three months tourist visa and I left the
country and then I came back anddid another three months.
And at the end of that second three months, I was able to find
a job at an agency, which is as much as I could hope for.
That's great. Yeah, that's amazing.
Cause teaching English, I was there myself.
Yeah, that's what I did as a part time.
And it's the easiest, like highest paying job for a English
(04:22):
speaker, like if you're just starting out.
So you got an agency job and what made you decide to find
your own company? Oh boy.
Review as little or as much as you can.
No, but there's lots of drivers,right?
One one is I had always wanted my own company from the time I
was a little kid. It was something that, you know,
(04:43):
growing up in the Bronx and me and my older sister used to talk
about how, OK, we're going to dothis and you'll run this part of
the company and I'll do that part of the company.
It was always a dream and ambition like that was always in
my road map or path. I think the, the opportunities
that I ended up being presented when I was in Japan.
So I was at this agency and I was there for about 6 years.
(05:05):
I was actually running their office in Tokyo for the last
three years. And, and it sort of came to a
point where I think the vision for where the agency wanted to
go and the vision for where I wanted to go just didn't line
up. So it was it we that that road
had run its course, if you will,you know, and fortunately I had
(05:26):
the opportunity to be a, a potential client, not a client
of that old agency, but to a potential client to, to sort of
springboard my own sort of organization.
And so I did. And, you know, it was all above
the board, like I talked to my old agency about here's what I'm
going to do when we tried to make sure that no one would get
damaged in that sort of process.But it it was really a bit of
(05:49):
serendipity where my vision and their vision didn't line up
anymore and we were able to workout something amicable.
Unfortunately, there was also a client that I could use as a
springboard to to start the company.
Yeah, yeah, networking, springboarding, so important and
serendipity to. Yeah, no.
So like the whole phrase that I think is the world's truest
(06:09):
phrase is luck, is opportunity meets preparation.
You have to, yeah, you have to be prepared in order to do the
work or meet the opportunity. But opportunity does have to
present itself. Yeah, and you have to know when
to seize it, like keep your eyesopen and seize it.
So I know that relative is, likeI said in the intro, it focuses
(06:31):
specifically on relationship. Has it always been that way?
Yeah, that was the whole intention 'cause I, I, I just
think it's a lesson. I believe there's been repeated
in multiple phases in my life, going back to when I, you know,
first used to work for my grandfather in the Bronx to
literally the, the agency I was working at in Tokyo just before
(06:53):
that. Nothing good happens if you
don't have positive relationships.
Nothing good happens. Like if you're in a company
where people are working againsteach other, put all the hours
you want into it. Your company's going to have
limited success if you and your clients aren't on the same page
about what success looks like and what value looks like.
Put all the effort you wanted toit, you're going to have limited
(07:14):
real return come out of that. So I think in starting relative
the whole life there is that I and just radically or
religiously or whatever R word you want to use, committed to
the concept that that everythinghas to be driven through a
relationship lens. We're working in collaboration
with our clients, where our clients are working in
(07:35):
collaboration or in a sense of Co creation with their
consumers, and that becomes the foundation for everything to do.
And I think if you do that, whatyou end up doing is work is more
rewarding, the the results more positive.
And I think it's just a better, healthier environment.
And I think how you work is to me more important as as the work
(07:56):
that you actually do, being ableto work in a positive
environment. Now I know that Japanese people
value relationships a lot as. Well.
In personal life and work life too, was the concept, because
it's so much of A given, was it difficult to kind of make that
(08:17):
your pitch? I don't know how.
How does it sound now when I sayit?
Well, to me, it makes a whole lot of sense because in worlds
outside of Japan, yeah, we can definitely use some, you know,
minimizing friction. Like I London definitely can do
some of that. So yeah.
(08:37):
I, I think like to me at the endof the day, I think the, I think
the pitch, I think the idea of relationships is a given, but I
don't think that everyone reallydoes it.
Obviously in Japan, like you said, relationships really
matter in the contents of your network and networks are built
over time and there's a sense oftrust that comes out of that and
(08:57):
the way that work happens. But I don't necessarily thinking
in Japan that it's always a matter of, well, what's my
relationship with my consumer orwhat's my relationship with my
suppliers. There is a sense sometimes of
hierarchy and dominance in placeinto things.
I think the way that we try to work is to try to really embed
that sense of again, like how doyou how do you create mutual
(09:18):
value between all parties at allpoints of interactions at all
times to everything that we do. And I think that is I think that
is important. And I think that's a value add
to to what happens in the Japan market in, in most markets.
I do think though fundamentally I don't, I don't overly expect
people to buy into my pitch. I don't overly expect people to
(09:41):
buy into my philosophy. It's I expect people to
understand who I am. If you work with someone, this
is who I am. This is who we are as a company.
This is what we do. The most important thing for my
clients to understand is that we're going to go find you
customers. We're going to deliver value for
you and we're going to fight foryou 'cause we believe in you.
This is why we do. You don't necessarily need to
(10:03):
believe what I believe, and that's OK.
Yeah. I guess the first step would be
you know, getting them the sales, getting them the
acquisition, getting them the sales.
And for a lot of people who are we may not be familiar with
experience, customer experience,they may think of it like
customer service, you know, we call support.
(10:24):
How would you distinguish the two?
I think it's really interesting because I think it was a company
at the heart of what we do is sort of experience design,
helping to plan out the right experiences across the ecosystem
for for for our clients, customers.
I think there is absolutely a bias in the industry sometimes
skew that towards customer service and think of it through
(10:46):
that lens. But I think all touch points
matter. So when you the, the ultimate
thing that I think all companies, all business want to
do is you want to create a positive impression in your
customer's mind at every point of interaction.
So as if they trust you So what they want to buy from you.
So as the customer prefers you over other options, that doesn't
(11:07):
happen just at customer service.If your experience and your plan
for that is not holistic, then you're missing opportunities.
Yeah, I have experienced something.
It was opening a bank account, so it was filled with friction.
It was anything but it was filled with friction.
I have to call them. So calling, talking to them
(11:30):
online over chat and going to the branch, the three are not
connected at all. Like they don't even see the
same person so. Was that in in Japan?
That was in London. London, OK, OK.
Yeah, I think Japan from my experience, you it the things
will be smoother, but I do feel like they will tell you no in a
(11:54):
very respectful way. If the that's not how the
company's flow goes, they can't do a whole lot to help a
customer like oh, I can't I was not able to fill this form
online because my name doesn't fit the form.
Yep. And I don't know like may or may
not be able to solve that problem for them.
(12:15):
No, exactly. No.
I think customer service and customer support and
interactions in person in Japan are probably best in the world.
I do think that if you look at digital experiences, sometimes
Japan has historically favored functionality over sort of the
overall user experience. And how do I make this a little
bit smoother or easier or frictionless?
And I think that's still an opportunity.
(12:36):
I, I like, I, one of the things I'm personally very, very
bullish on is I just think Japanhas so many opportunities.
I know a lot of people forget about Japan because, oh, it's an
ageing population or, you know, it's not growing in a certain
way. But I just think Japan is full
of opportunities to, to capitalize.
And it's such a strong foundation as it applies to
functionality, technology as a brand that as Japan, I think
(13:02):
takes a better leadership position in the world around
things like customer experience,around business offering as a
whole. I just think there's so much
opportunities that Japan has to offer.
Yeah, I think they already have the right mentality.
So it's really just whether it be education or or equipping
them with the right technology or know how.
Yeah, like I would guess it's not easy starting a business.
(13:26):
What was the most difficult thing you have to do starting
relative? Boy, I think it it plays to your
strengths, right? So I'm a I'm a marketing guy and
so solving client problems, I'm not going to say is easy.
I don't want to take it for granted, but it's natural for me
to do that. The hardest part is when you
play to your weaknesses like, oh, spreadsheets, we have to, we
(13:48):
have to reconcile what we spent all the bookkeeping and admins.
Things are not necessarily by strengthening.
There's so much of it like oh, these these government wants
these forms and that forms and all of that sort of
administrative work that comes along with it.
That was something that, you know, at a certain level I think
I've had to get better at and I think I've gotten a lot better
(14:10):
at it. I'm probably still not, it still
doesn't come natural to me. So managing sort of the, the,
the call it the bureaucratic or administrative side of some of
the work, particularly if it applies to interactions with
government entities, etcetera, etcetera.
That's probably been the hardest, but you know, doing the
work to me like I I one of the things we try to do as a
(14:31):
company, right or wrong, some people might think it's wrong.
We really do try to focus our effort and our investment into
the business problem solving outside of what we do versus we
build up a huge back office. It does a lot of paperwork and
things like that because I thinkthat I want to focus on being an
(14:52):
organization that creates value versus manages stuff, you know,
So we try to minimize through our systems and processes what
we have to manage versus what wecan actually create for others.
Yeah, like you can outsource that or find someone who's
better than you at something then.
No, we, we definitely, you know,we have, we have a operations
(15:12):
team to help support us now thatwe've grown.
Like when we first started, it was only five of us.
So it wasn't, we didn't have that luxury, but now we're about
35 people or so. So we have an operations team to
help support us and we have someoutside vendors.
But even still, as we designed the organization, I we designed
it to not require an enormous amount of bureaucracy.
(15:32):
So we don't want to put in processes that require great new
papers to be managed versus new value to be created.
That's good. You're living what you preach.
You want a good experience for your people.
Yeah, trying, trying. So have you noticed any shifts
in the market? We start with Japan, but maybe
in the world, the shifts of how people's appetite or desire for
(15:57):
good experience, any patterns that you notice?
From a consumer perspective, youmean in terms of what they're
looking for? I think, I don't know.
I, I think like it's very interesting because Japan is the
experience, drivers are motivators of consumers in Japan
is probably different than it isin the West.
I, I don't think Japanese consumers are as driven by
(16:20):
experience outside of the interpersonal face to face
experience. But I'm online if I'm
interacting with the experience part is probably less important
than the information, probably because people have been biased
towards again, functionality, information consumption and
management. I do think, I do think there is
somewhat of a shift in that where there's increasingly
(16:42):
interest and, and how do we makea better experience and how do
we make things a little bit havea little bit less friction going
forward. And I think that's starting to
come into play. But I don't think it's a huge
factor yet. I, I do think that everyone is
aware that the world is changingrapidly as it applies to
(17:04):
technology, whether whether that's AI or anything else.
And I think that I think that all users, I think this is
probably true globally as well as in Japan, are looking to see
how do we adopt those technologies in a way that makes
my life easier. And I don't, I don't know, I
don't know that people have solved that, you know, aside
(17:26):
from using, let's say, chat GT place in terms of searching for
things, which I think is OK, butthat's not really that
revolutionary. It's it's a nicer search engine,
which isn't the point I think ofartificial intelligence, but I
think people are searching and try to figure out ways how would
these tools start to change my life going forward?
Yeah, If you're just using AI tosearch, it's definitely under
(17:49):
utilizing it. But we're still in like baby
infant stage of AI adoption. The other day I saw this
Japanese commercial. I think it's like system
implementation, OK type company and it was like AI all over in
ATV commercial. Think about how much they have
to spend on that. No, absolutely.
(18:10):
But I, I think AI is interestingbecause it's a big selling
proposition. And I think the the key part
again is, is going back to your original questions, how does
that going to affect the end user more and make their life
better? And I think that's still, it's
still a bit unclear. And I think a lot of companies
even how they position their tools, whether they let their
tools leverage AI or they don't.I don't think the articulation
(18:31):
is so much how we're making yourlife easier as much as, oh, look
what the cool technology. Can be.
And that's, you know, but we're figuring that out.
Like you said, it's early stages.
Yeah, like it may be an easier process for an easier touch
point for a broken process, maybe.
Yeah, you sell to jump the groups.
Or like to me, at the end of theday, all new tech, all
(18:53):
technology, all technology. Sorry this is a bit of a random
rant, please forgive. Me.
The the most important thing in life, the most valuable thing in
life is time, right, Because time is the only it's the most
finite commodity that we never get back.
So I think we value in my mind is ultimately measured and saved
time or time that I could spend doing anything something else,
(19:15):
right. So if I don't, if I can drive a
car instead of a horse and buggy, I can get places quicker,
I can save time. There's value in the car, right?
Like that's the value in it is, is what it saves you in time.
And I think as we bring these new technologies to the fore,
the question is ultimately for the end user is how are you
freeing me up? How are you freeing my time up
(19:37):
so I can do more things and I can be more empowered.
And I think that's ultimately where we need to get to, if any
technology. Now switching gears a little
bit, I want to hear about your experience being the customer in
Japan versus having to treat customers 'cause I feel like the
two are very different. Tell me, can you give me a
(19:59):
little bit more about that, likein terms of what you're looking
for? Like when you are being served,
how does that make you feel in Japan?
Well, Japan has the best customer service in the world,
generally speaking, except for when you go to the bank, which
is why when I was at, when you were telling that London Bank
story, I was like, is that, doesthat sound like a Japan thing?
(20:22):
Have happened. I think I can.
Imagine Japan banks for all the technology that we have now are
super analog, you know, and it'sstill, it's can be more of a
process than than I expected. And then I think a lot of people
would expect. But in general, being a, a
customer in Japan is, I think it's, it's the pinnacle of sort
(20:46):
of respect. I think there's a phrase, and I
don't remember exactly how to say it in in in Japanese, but
it's essentially translates as the customer's God, not the
customer's king, not the customer's, always right now,
the customer's. God.
And I think that that's how you're actually treated and,
and, and supported. And I think people go out of
their way sometimes too much in a way that's maybe we've gone
(21:09):
past the point of helpfulness, but it's always it's always with
that intention of treating people right.
And I think that I really think that, you know, that's again,
one of the lessons that Japan can teach the world around like,
you know, how to how to, how to service people in a way that
that that feels appreciated and respectful.
Yeah, Speaking of that, I remember I was leaving a hotel.
(21:31):
It was snowing. I think it was Hokkaido or the
Northeast. The people, the staff, they were
like waving your bus or waving your car as they're saying
goodbye to you. But it was freezing, OK?
And they were in skirts and juststockings.
So something like that do make you feel like you're gone.
(21:53):
One, one of the things that I find incredible, like, and I, I
have this coming up in a couple weeks.
Like usually in Japan, you work for a company, you go for like
an annual health check, right? And they, I mean, compared to
like, I'm not trying to embarrass any other countries
out there, but compared to the American health system, it's,
it's amazing. Like they check everything and
(22:13):
like one day you're doing, you're getting X-rays, you're
getting Ekgs, you're getting, dothe barium test so they can look
at your whole digestive tract. They do everything.
It's an amazing, you know, full body sort of check.
But the thing that really amazedme about it the first time I
went is they also had someone that guide you through every
(22:34):
station like, oh, excuse me now it's time for the blood work.
And they'd walk you by and get your.
Blood work. Great.
Are you done? Are you OK?
Let's go check the eyesight now.I'm like, you're like, what is
this? Like, you know what I mean?
Like the level of service. I'm like, am I in a spa at the
doctor's office? What's going on there is I found
it incredible. It was incredible.
Now what about being on the other side, having to serve your
(22:58):
clients well? Look, I think the good news is
I'm not Japanese, right? So, so no one expects me to get
that right at that level like Japanese people have a
realistic. Expectation of.
What what foreigners are are trained for, if you will.
So, but but I think for me at least, the thing that I always
(23:19):
try to convince everybody is that I'm here to fight for them.
Again, you may not love exactly how I do it or you may not love
you know how I say it, or you may not love you know, the way
it presents. But you have to understand the
core value that I'm going to every work assignment with that
we're doing together is that I'mhere to do whatever it's going
(23:40):
to take to make sure that you come out as a, as a, as a
winner. And I think what I try to do is
I don't try to match the, the cultural inner of Japan, 'cause
I can't, I'm from the Bronx, youknow what I mean?
Like I can't but, but I can't match that energy.
But I try to make sure people understand what I'm fighting for
(24:01):
in my own way, you know, And I think generally, like I find
people in Japan, they understandthat, right?
They understand that you won't behave a certain way.
But if they understand your commitment, they understand
their about your value, then people understand what you're
about. So that's what that's what I try
to do. That's why as a principle, like
(24:24):
in my company we have people from, you know, I don't say
every culture, but we've got a lot of people from a lot of
different places for a 35 personorganization.
But I try to, the main thing we have to do when we work for
clients is convince our clients and and I convince them in terms
of selling them, but to convey that we are doing this for them
(24:45):
and it's all about them. I think that's the critical
part. Now your clients are are they
like Japanese companies or foreign companies trying to
break into the market of Japan? Most of our clients are, I'd
say, established international companies in Japan.
OK. So like from an employee
(25:06):
perspective, a lot of their teamwill be by nature Japanese, but
the company itself may be a multinational corporation.
Cause the reason I ask that is, well, maybe it's not so relevant
anymore, but I'll ask it anyway 'cause I want to see like for
companies who want to target Japan as a market.
Yep. And what kind of things do they
have to be mindful of? I just, how do you say the most
(25:30):
important thing that I think that I'm trying to, I'm trying
to try to condense this thought.I just think the most important
thing is that people have to understand that Japan has its
own values and its own energy and that when you come into
Japan, you have to adapt to that.
Now, that's true of every market, I think to some extent.
But I think what are the key differences is that unlike, I
(25:54):
don't know, and I don't want to single out a specific country
and get it wrong, but I think a lot of countries because of
colonialism, imperialism, have taken cues from the West And so
that the model and the fit with the way the Western world works
and the way that they work sort of aligned better.
Japan didn't go through that. So Japan's like we've built it
(26:15):
on our own. You're going to have to fit with
our system a little bit. And I think sometimes too, like
if I'm a global, you know, FMCG brand and I'm headquartered in
London or New York and I come upwith this campaign, this
campaign will resonate in a lot of different markets all the
way. Resonates here, resonates in
that market. Why doesn't it resonate in
(26:35):
Japan? It's not because Japan is
inherently difficult. It's Japan.
You have to adapt a little bit more to the Japanese environment
than you do and other markets, even though they all had their
own distinct culture, but they're just used to being a
little bit more flexible to the Western way of working.
Have you seen any like campaign gone wrong?
(26:58):
Oh, just probably 1,000,000. I see some people, what's when
you come to mind? Like I try, I always try not to
be specific 'cause I don't want anyone get mad at.
You don't name don't name the brand.
No, but like so. But I, I tell you this, so I
think this is really interesting.
We, a competitive agency of ours.
We, we shared a client back whenI was at my old agency before,
(27:20):
before I started a relative, theclient really wanted to do a
Western style ad for, for, for their campaign.
And you know, I think we, my oldcompany, we're sort of splitting
that difference, right? We, we're an international
(27:41):
agency in Japan, so you have theability to do Western style
work, but you also try to do something locally.
And I think that the client wasn't that happy with the
concept we presented. So they moved over to work with
the Japanese agency, one of the largest Japanese agencies in,
in, in Japan. But the work that the agency did
(28:02):
was so not. It wasn't suited for the Japan
market. It was like a Japanese imitation
of a Western ad. So it didn't even look like a
Great Western ad. It just looked really out of
place to. Me.
They're here or there. Yeah, Like what's, what is this
like, like, like 'cause you knowwhat I mean?
(28:24):
It was, it was very, it was veryodd and confusing, but I think
it's because they were trying tostraddle sort of cultural lines
and gaps. And I, I, I don't know.
And I think that comes from sometimes like the, the, the
clients like what we want to position ourselves this way.
And so everyone is trying to make that happen.
And I think the reality is you should always position yourself
(28:46):
around what is your audience. Need like.
You know, as a, as a brand, thisis what I offer, this is what I
stand for, absolutely. But how do I get you, whether
you're a Japanese woman or a housewife in Chicago or a banker
in New York or a a business person in Bangkok, it doesn't
matter. I have to then go, how do I get
(29:06):
you to understand what Ioffer? And I have to work around that
context, not be a bit rigid. And I think where work is work
goes wrong. And that sort of cultural sense
is when we become too rigid about how we're trying to look
versus how how are we trying to connect with our audience.
So you having managed operationsin your other agencies before,
(29:30):
I'm sure numbers means a lot to you.
So how are there any indicators that you can see that the
customer experience is improvingbesides the sales numbers?
You know, there's obviously a lot of people use NPS as an
indicator of that, you know, NetPromoter score, which is really
(29:51):
designed to say, you know, how much people have if you, I think
I think that's a valid way to look at it.
And I think brand satisfaction, one of the things that we
personally look at is we look atsomething that we call
connectivity. And connectivity is literally
designed to to measure how connected a brand feels, how
(30:11):
connected does a consumer feel with that particular brand,
especially relative to the competition.
What we found is sort of the brand connection is a leading
indicator of sales later. Right, so.
Sell sales is great, but sales is a lagging indicator.
If you understand whether or notyou're connecting, whether
you're resonating, and then if you're not well, you can still
(30:34):
pivot. If you wait, then yes, the sales
will be lower and they'll be disappointed.
So we use connectivity, which isa quantitative study as well to
sort to be able to measure that and be able to help our clients
sort of understand it and and anticipate potential issues.
Is that something that relativesdeveloped?
(30:56):
Yeah, it's, it's something that came it, it, it comes out of the
whole relationship philosophy again, we really believe it.
And, and the reason why we develop connectivity is, look, I
can sit here and I can tell you relationships are important or
relationships drive business. Relationships are not.
If I can't prove it quantitatively, then who cares?
You know what I mean? I got, I got a lot, I got lots
of philosophies I can share withyou.
(31:17):
But like at the end of the day, if we're going to do business,
you know, together, I have to beable to say, well, the reason
why we work this way is the results you get.
So we, we've spent, boy, I don'tknow, probably about four to
five years developing the actualtool, basically collecting data
year over year and understandingtrends and patterns against that
(31:38):
to sort of formulate the the waythat we build and deploy
connectivity. Wow.
I wanted to ask you for companies who still think of
sales relationship with their customers in the more
transactional unit, what would you suggest that they start
doing besides talking to you? Yeah, look, I think, I think
(32:01):
transactions matter, right? Transactions absolutely matter.
We've got to make money and we don't need to make money in
three years. We need to make money today.
So I I don't, I don't expect people to do anything different.
I or rather, I don't expect people to change their focus.
What I always try to tell peoplethis, how are you engaging with
(32:24):
your audience so that while you create a transaction today,
you're also creating a preference for tomorrow?
So one of the ways that we try to encourage our clients to
think is through this lens of what we call sort of the
connection journey. One of the things that I hate as
a as a construct is the whole customer journey.
Customer journey is like to me, a fallacy that that some
(32:47):
marketing guy made-up because customers don't go on journeys.
Brands want to go somewhere, businesses want to connect.
So as you're selling, how are you also building connections
along the way? That's what I would suggest
people to think about. Not stop selling, but make sure
you're connecting along the way so you're making selling easier
and more efficient, faster and more likely to to repeat.
(33:09):
Yeah. Like a repeat customer is worth
so much and the cost of acquire,yeah, like it's the cost of the
repeat sale is so much lower. Absolutely.
And and I just think every dollar you spend you how do you
say it? If I pay $1000 to get a thousand
(33:29):
$1500 worth for sales, well that's great.
I guess that's positive ROI. But if I always have to spend
that $1000 to get that $1500 of sales, then I'm never going to
be able to grow. Now next time if I could spend
800 and get 1500, next time if Icould spend 700 and 1500, then
my business is on a different trajectory, you know?
Yeah. So definitely forward-looking is
paving the way for or a repeat customer base.
(33:52):
Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely.
Right, so for this last part, want to play something fun or
ask you some quick reperfier questions?
So OK if you could ban one overused marketing buzzword
besides customer journey. I gave it away.
What would you say? Can I come back to that one?
(34:13):
I'm stuck. I still have to.
Can I still have the customer Journeyman?
Alright, go to the next questionon me.
I'm sorry. What was the most Japanese
customer experience you have had?
There's so many, I think that, you know, every time you go to a
store in Japan, like the level of service that you get, the
patients that you get the, the care that you get if you buy
(34:34):
something and they wrap it up. It's just, it's amazing every
single time And it's it's incredible the amount of care
and dedication that that people put into taking care of their
customers. Yeah, yeah.
I have a funny story I wanna share.
Yeah, please. I remember buying like
self-serve at a convenience store.
So the staff asked me, do you want to like, is it take away or
(34:56):
are you eating it now? No, I said take away.
And then I was like, what's gonna be the difference, right?
Like, right. So they put it in this paper
stand and they have like a wafercone.
They put the wafer cone on it and put it in a bag.
So by the time I get home, this thing would still be intact.
(35:19):
To me, that would always be the story that I tell if you ask me
that. Yeah, I think that's, it's, it's
amazing how, how people care about that, you know?
So I wish more countries would do that.
Absolutely. Next one one non negotiable
habit that you have picked up after moving to Japan.
After moving to Japan, I think just being politer a little bit,
(35:41):
I think, you know, I'm from New York.
We're not very polite. I think it's, I think Japan,
people are always respect and it's weird 'cause now when I
visit New York, you're like, excuse me, People get weird.
Like, excuse me, you don't say that around here.
But I think it, it just sort of becomes part of your DNA, You
know, it's, it's just try to be a little bit extra polite and
considerate of others. Great one brand you think
(36:04):
absolutely nails customer experience.
I think there's a few brands andI think I'll, I'll, I'll use
Patagonia as a example. I think the reason why I think
Patagonia is really good at whatthey do is 'cause I think
customer experience doesn't juststart from the bells and
whistles of, of, of you know, service points or, or, or, or
(36:25):
interface design. It comes from what you stand
for, right? And Patagonia has a clear
position of what they actually stand for.
And then through their whole experience that is consistent of
what they stand for. Whether you're returning
clothing, whether you're buying clothing, that sense of care for
the environment is so consistent.
And I think every time I engage or someone engages with
(36:48):
Patagonia, they're going to get that same consistent experience
in a way that I think is fantastic.
Great, I am not a customer yet but I will start paying more
attention to them. OK, next one.
The worst experience you've had as a customer?
It doesn't have to be. In Japan, yeah, I'll tell you
like so this is probably with mycell phone provider in the US,
(37:13):
right And so I've had a even with in Japan, I maintain my US
cell phone and for some reason, I don't know why, for some
reason they stopped charging me my credit card.
So I and I so I come to the US and I like the what's my US
phone number's not working what's going on?
And I go to the store and the guy in the store is like, oh,
(37:34):
you got a call, but I can't helpyou.
I I, what do you mean you can't help me?
This is the store, this is the place like you got to call these
guys and then I call them up andbasically I don't know what
happened but somehow there was an issue with charging my credit
card and they didn't charge it and then so they cut it off I'm
like, OK, cool. Well, can you turn it back on?
I'll pay you the money right now.
Like, yeah, but we need the money first.
(37:55):
But yeah, but you'll turn it back on after I do it.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, for sure, for sure, for sure.
Finally. Like it took like a couple of
days for them to make sure for them to verify that they had the
payment and things like that. And then I'm like, cool, like,
great. Thank you.
And I'm like, yeah, well, what about my number?
Like, oh, well, you now you got to call somebody else.
I'm like, what do you mean I gotto call someone else?
Like this is the whole reason I'm trying to get this worked
(38:17):
out. At the end of the day, they they
never gave me my number bags. Oh, but the reason I don't even
care about that, the reason there's a lack of transparency
that says I went to them becauseI was like, hey, my phone's not
working. I need this number.
You can lay out that, he said. Here's what we are, here's what
we're going to do, Here's what'sgoing to.
Happen. Instead, it's like, well, what
we want's the money, and we're not going to tell you about what
(38:39):
you're going to get until after we get that.
And by the way, you're not goingto get what you want.
I know. I'm like.
That's unreal. Like I know mobile carriers are
notorious. They're they're.
Horrible. Stuff like that.
But yeah, yeah, yeah. Like, did you not think, like,
what am I trying to do? Like, why do I want to give you
money? Yeah, if I'm not going to use
this ever again. Exactly.
(39:01):
And I think the whole thing is, and this is the part where
customer service organizations sometimes fail is that they are
protecting the company. They're not looking out for the
consumer. And I get it right.
There's a lot of people who might scam you.
There's a lot of things that people worry about, especially,
you know, when you think about your company as a financial
(39:21):
instrument. But at the same time, if you're
designing your, your service organization to protect the
company versus to take care and,and, and surprise and delight
consumers, I think it's weird. You know, I was and this is a
company I was a customer of for 25 years.
We could have worked that. Now I think you know.
(39:42):
Yeah, yeah. So did you end up getting a new
a different carrier? Yeah, went to a different
carrier. Yeah, good for you.
OK, so last question, because you your company's space in
Tokyo, you live in Tokyo, I'm sure a lot of people are
jealous. So what's your favorite place to
go in Tokyo to clear your head? Tokyo's interesting because it's
(40:04):
really dense sometimes, you know, like so.
And I, and I live right in the heart of the city, but I do live
by the Imperial Palace. So I don't know you've you've
been to Tokyo, so you know the Imperial.
Palace. Yeah, it's a serene.
Yeah, it's, it's super hot 'cause there's no shade during
the summer, but on a nice fall day, just taking a walk or a run
around the Imperial Palace is very freeing 'cause you, what
(40:27):
you see for people who haven't been there, what you see is you.
It's almost like Central Park inNew York almost.
It's much smaller than Central Park, but what I mean by that is
that it's it's tree lined, but it's surrounded by sort of the
industrial skyline of the business skyline of, of Tokyo.
So as you walk around, particularly around if it's
(40:48):
around sunset ish, it's a nice view and it's a nice sort of
contrast between sort of the hustle of the city and the, the
tradition of the Imperial Palace.
But with the modernity sort of surrounding it.
Yeah, I think that's the beauty of Japan.
You see so many like historic Japanese looking architecture.
(41:09):
Yeah, next to like a modern highrise.
No, similar to London actually. There's a lot of that.
To Japan is old that way. The only thing about Japan is
that they have earthquakes. So we, we have a lot of like new
buildings that aren't always distinctive in their
architecture 'cause they're built, they're built to
withstand an earthquake versus to the like BI.
(41:30):
Well, thank you very much for having this chat with me.
Like I've been looking forward to it for weeks.
Like I said, just passionate about my companies, thinking
about customer experience instead of just transactions and
just just make us less frustrated.
Yeah, we don't need any more frustrations.
No, absolutely. And and I really appreciate
(41:50):
being on. I really enjoyed this
conversation and I think, you know, obviously if there's
anything, you know, that that I've shared people have
questions about later around experience, it's something I'm
also very passionate about as well.
You know, like the how do we, I,I believe that, you know, life
is life is complicated, but it'salso simple.
(42:10):
And like, if we make life a little bit less frustrating on a
daily basis, even though that doesn't seem like you did a lot,
that means a lot because you know that you it impacts so many
people. Yeah, What's a good way to get
in contact with you if anyone's interested?
Yeah. Well, obviously you could
contact us through our website, whichisrelative.com.
(42:31):
There's no E on relatives or relative without the e.com or
you can find me on on LinkedIn, Cairo Marsh.
I'm pretty much the only one, soI'll be there.
All right. Thank you very much.
Absolutely, Karen. Thank you.
Thanks for listening to this episode of Mine One.
Maybe enjoy the conversation. Don't forget to follow and share
(42:54):
it with anyone who needs to hearit.
And let's keep the conversation going.
Connect with me on LinkedIn or leave me a comment.
Until next time, stay curious, keep exploring, and let's
continue to plan our minds and discover what's possible.
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