September 8, 2025 • 46 mins
Mistakes in your past don’t have to define your future.
My guest today, Jacob Hill, founder of Offploy, knows this better than most. After serving time in prison, Jacob didn’t just turn his life around—he built one of the UK’s leading organisations helping people with convictions step back into the workforce.
In this episode, we talk about:
How Jacob’s journey through prison shaped him into more of an entrepreneur than ever before
Why employers should see candidates with convictions as valuable assets, not risks
The higher loyalty and retention rates often found in this overlooked talent pool
What businesses get wrong about “inclusive hiring” and how to get it right
How lived experience can fuel innovation, resilience, and leadership
Jacob puts it plainly in our conversation: “We need to stop writing people off for the worst thing they’ve ever done and start looking at the value they can bring today.”
This episode is for leaders, HR professionals, and anyone interested in building workplaces that look at the whole person—not just the label.
About Jacob Hill
Jacob is an entrepreneur, LinkedIn Top Voice on inclusive hiring, and an advocate for social value, particularly in the context of supporting individuals with criminal records. His unique journey, from serving time in prison to founding Offploy one of the UK’s largest providers of mentoring for people with convictions, underscores his deep commitment to social impact.
His work focuses on empowering employers to recruit individuals with convictions "safely, confidently and legally," whilst also emphasising the critical importance of measuring social impact to prove effectiveness and drive continuous improvement.
You can find Jacob on LinkedIn and Offploy.org.
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Mind Blend is all about real experiences and meaningful conversations—through sharing these insights, I hope to inspire and empower you as you navigate your unique journey.
I’d also love to hear from you! What resonated with you today? What topics or guests should we feature next? Let’s keep the conversation going—connect with me on LinkedIn @ karenkchong and @Mind-Blend
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Until next time, stay curious, keep exploring, and let’s continue to blend our minds and discover what’s possible.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
Remember your suitcase that cameback from a trip covered in
scuffs? Looks worn sure, but it still
carries everything you need reliably.
With people we often do the opposite. 1 mark in their pass
and door slammed shut. My guest today, Jacob Hill, know
this first hand. After prison he didn't just
rebuild his life, he built a wayfor thousands of others to do
(00:23):
the same in the UK. So what happens when we go pass
a label and see the whole person?
Let's find out. Welcome to the show Mind Blend.
I'm your host, Karen Chong, and I'll be diving into the minds of
incredible people, each an expert in their very own way.
(00:43):
Together, we'll uncover insightsand share ideas so you can be
inspired and empowered to navigate your own unique journey
in life. Ready to get curious and
discover what's possible? Let's blend.
All right, so today in the studio with me, Air Quote Studio
(01:04):
is Jacob Hill. Hi, Karen, thanks for having me
on the show in the studio, the air studio.
Yeah. So because he's physically in
Venice today, but he's all over the place.
He has been all over the place and we'll find out why.
So Jacob, as I know, it's a prominent entrepreneur, you're
(01:27):
also a LinkedIn top voice advocate for specifically social
value and the context of supporting individuals with
criminal records. Absolutely right.
And you're currently the founderof an organization called Off
Point. And that's not the only thing
you've started. And we'll talk about that a
little bit more. Amazing.
(01:47):
I can't wait all. Right.
So I want to hear from you, yourjourney that ultimately LED you
to start off point. OK, so of Ploys, an organization
that mentors people with criminal convictions, we on one
side support those at risk of offending to access better
(02:07):
opportunities in life and, and, and, and build on a positive
future. And on the other hand, we work
with employers to support them to employ that cohort.
And this isn't the type of job you just you always aspire to do
or I think it's the type of thing you fall into sometimes,
but maybe that's because it's non profit.
(02:27):
It's the social sector. And I find that with a lot of
people who run social organizations, there tends to be
a personal link to the mission or to the work they're doing,
especially if they're the founder.
And I, what led me there was my my own journey through
university, the son of two police officers, having
everything I ever wanted in life, being, you know,
(02:50):
externally very successful from a, a camping business.
Now, I know camping doesn't excite probably many people.
I don't know how many people listen to this podcast, get
excited about it. It certainly didn't excite
enough people for my business tobe successful.
And that camping business ultimately failed and I made
stupid and regretful choices that landed me a prison sentence
(03:11):
related to drugs and I was sentenced to 28 months and
started off in armed prison. But this, it's one of the second
highest for suicides in the UKA really tough Victorian old age
prison falling apart. And it was whilst in prison that
I came up with the idea to startoff Ploy and I'd happily answer
(03:31):
any questions about that. I want to dig into this, the
whole experience a little bit more.
So when you first know that you were going to prison, do you
remember what went through your mind?
There was like one element whereI was first arrested and that
was the biggest wake up call I've had him in my entire life.
(03:53):
I, I was in this not dream state, but this completely
different reality where I was, you know, watching Breaking Bad
and all these films and thinkingthat this isn't all, you know,
this is the route I could go down.
This is what I could do and I could make loads of money and I
can pay back my debts and I can actually be successful at
(04:13):
something because I'm a being a failure at everything else.
This is what I was thinking. And then being arrested, that
was like the first moment, like,oh heck, my parents are going to
find out. I'm going to lose my business
completely. I'm going to embarrass a lot of
prominent figures and people who've believed in and invested
in me. I've thrown away all this
(04:34):
goodwill and support I've built up over these few years.
And so that for me was like the first moment of fear, thinking
what what is going to, what is going to happen.
And then you start to think whatcould have happened.
So the the could have happened could have been OK, I could have
been shot or killed or or overdosed or when I was using in
(04:55):
all of in all of this experience.
And then you finally get to the sentencing when you find out
you're going to prison and it's 11 months.
It took eleven months for the court cases because of the
delays in the courts and etcetera, etcetera.
And those 11 months were worse for me than the 9 1/2 months I
ultimately did in prison becauseI had no idea of what prison was
(05:18):
going to be like. So I painted the absolute worst
picture expecting being attackedin the showers, expecting being
beaten up every day, all of this, the 11 months of anxiety
and fear and people will listen to this and say great, that's
what you deserve. Someone I imagine as well.
But the anxiety and fear of of going to prison for me was much
(05:41):
worse than the prison experience.
But it doesn't mean it was a good prison experience.
At the point of sentencing therewas just relief that there was
at least an end or at least an end day to point this would all
be over because I didn't know ifI was going to be let out of the
courts that day or be given a nine year prison sentence.
So to land at 2 and a bit years,almost three, that was.
(06:02):
It was a relief to at least knowthat it was going to be over
soon. Yeah, it must have been torture,
the 11 months. We're our own worst enemies.
We think of our imaginations. There's we've been brought up to
we, we are genetically wired to be scared of the dark, to
understand, you know, there's monsters and predators in there
(06:23):
and don't go near it. The dark is, is an uncertain
future for for some people. And that can scare the heck out
of people, not just those facinga prison sentence, but those
with uncertainty in their life anyway.
Yeah. So I'm sure you didn't have the
idea of I'm going to start awfully.
The day you entered so did. Did you remember how it sort of
(06:47):
manifested? It was in the sewing machine
workshop. So my job was to sew together
200 different 200 pairs of boxershorts every day for the prison
estate. And I remember my, my line
manager, a guy called Ralph. And Ralph was think in a prison,
people don't care. And we were sewing together
(07:09):
these 200 boxer shots and we're a team of five.
And we'd get qualifications withit.
Yes. And I was doing the hems and
then I'd move to another bit andthe overlocking machine.
And it was really exciting to see progression.
And our line manager between thefour or five was, was, was
Ralph. And they were people who were,
and Ralph was looking at every single pair of boxer shot.
(07:31):
He only had to do a 20% audit, but he was doing a 100% audit on
every pair and he was snipping the fine threads off.
He had time. You have time in prison.
And I was like, Ralph, why? Why are you doing that?
You have to only check one in five.
Why are you checking 100%? And he went, first of all, I've
got all the time in the world. Second of all, we are judged as
(07:51):
a team on the quality, production and output here.
So everyone of you plays a part in all of this.
And third of all, on the first night someone gets in prison,
they might have been living rough on the streets.
They might have, you know, messed their pants in in the
fear of the situation. They could have whatever reason
he says, and this might be the first dignified item they get
(08:11):
that's theirs in prison. That's neat.
That's and it just blew me away.Did this because Ralph before I
went to prison would have been someone that I looked down upon
someone that I thought that was a bit rough for someone that was
a drug user and all. And in prison he was a shining
example. He was someone who we would all
employ. He was someone who would have
absolutely, why wouldn't you want someone like Ralph?
(08:32):
And prison for him was a way that he was clean.
He was had structure, he had artery, had responsibility, he
had root. He had all of this.
And it's just like, for me, I was like if I could just show
employers people like Ralph, I think our perception of what a
person with a criminal conviction would change his
offence hasn't come into this discussion or conversation.
(08:52):
His work ethic, his drive, his determination, his care for your
product has. And I want to show more
employers people like Ralph. And since starting we've
supported over 4000 people with criminal convictions.
So for me, it's absolutely amazing that the idea came from
a sewing machine workshop in a prison and has now gone on to
support many more people as a result of it.
(09:12):
Yeah, that's very noble of him. Just because he has had a
conviction, just because he's inprison, doesn't mean he's
rubbish, no. Yeah, of course, but neither
anyone else that comes in. He has no idea who those boxer
shorts are going to. He does understand the
experience of how daunting the first night could be regardless
of who you are. And he's looking beyond
(09:35):
whoever's going to use it, just more about that there's an
individual that that that might.He was mission driven on a pair
of boxer shots. And that's what I love.
Like, I just think it's like, you can find it in anything.
And if I could convince my bookkeeper or accountant to
understand how their role is helping people with convictions
get worked, like Ralph understood how boxer shots are
making the prison experience better, then I'll crack it.
(09:56):
I'll have cracked it. But I've not got, I've not found
that out yet. So I'm excited to keep learning
from Ralph and the memory of him.
Yeah, well, kudos to him and kudos to you for seeing this,
seeing there's an opportunity, there's a gap in the market and
doing something about it. Thank you so much.
So now that you have started off, boy, I'm sure you must have
(10:18):
seen a lot of misperception of people with convictions, whether
or not they went to prison. What are some of those?
Such a good point. I mean, you've straight away you
have hit what it takes me hours to explain to people that not
all people with convictions are ex prisoners.
So if the listeners you know right now driving in their car
(10:39):
or, or, or or they're on their commute in some way, or they're
just having a moment with me andjust think about when you hear
people with convictions, when you hear ex offender, what image
comes to mind? Criminals.
It's. Dangerous.
People dangerous people. I pictured 6 foot tall Skinhead
scar down the face, missing teeth, tattooed knuckles with
(11:02):
love and hate on either side. This was my image of an ex
offender before I went to prison.
I'm I'm the son of two police officers.
I've only ever seen the Shawshank Redemption, Prison
break, Orange is the New Black to shape my idea of what a
person with a criminal conviction is.
I only know the notorious headlines from the newspapers of
the worst criminals that go to prison because that that sells
(11:25):
newspapers. Yeah.
What we we don't think about is that one in four adults in the
UK, so 25% of our working age population has a criminal
conviction over 50. Percent of T5. 25%, we are
walking around amongst 12.6 million people with convictions,
well over 50% are for driving related offences and for our
(11:48):
colleagues in their cars today are listening away that even
speeding points counts as a criminal conviction.
But I know that that's not what people think about when they
think of people with convictions.
And when they say we wouldn't hire them as a company, for
example, they would say, well, obviously that doesn't include
driving convictions, but the, the number of violence offences
(12:08):
are, are incredibly low. It's within the less than 10%.
When we think about people who are, are kind of in prisons and,
and when we think about people with criminal convictions, it's
a such a broad range of people that it could be anything from
fraud related right through to, to challenging offences that I
know we all might come to mind. And only 8% of people sentenced
to prison are sentenced to prison in the UK every year, 92%
(12:32):
of people get community sentences.
So when we're the first thing wedo is that the big perceptions
we we have to challenge is that one, people with convictions
represent almost everyone. And two, we need to stop
thinking about them as a group of people with convictions, but
start to hear like Jacob's story, Ralph's story and start
to recognise it could be someonein your family, it could be
(12:54):
someone, you know, down the street and not necessarily
people that mean you or will cause you harm.
So for us, we've got to do a lotof perception changing around
that, Karen, for sure. So do you work with both people
with convictions and employers? Yes, we're both sides of the
fence, to use a jail related pun, but we we much on one side,
(13:17):
sit with corporates and large organisations to help them make
employing people with convictions business as usual.
And I'll say business as usual because it's not just about
hiring people with convictions, it's about supporting them.
What happens when existing conviction, we work with one
employer that has 30,000 staff, one that has 10,000 staff and
(13:39):
you picture those statistics of one in four adults of working
age as a conviction. These big companies cannot
afford to have a blanket ban on people with convictions.
They would use all of their a large portion of their talent.
So yes, we work with employers on one side and then our team of
amazing mentors, 7 in 10 of themalso have a conviction
(14:00):
themselves out of our mentors. And we'll take individuals who
are at risk of offending, not just those who have been
convicted and taking through a nine step transformative journey
to to achieving their life goals.
So side note, have you heard of this coffee company called
Redemption? Redemption Roasters Lending?
(14:21):
Yeah. I have it started by an
incredible human called Max Dubiel.
And you, there's now 12 or something coffee shops across
London, as well as, yeah, as well as roasteries inside the
prison. So Max has absolutely shown how
business is not just doing good,it's good for business.
If you are walking around London, look for your nearest
(14:42):
redemption roses and grab yourself a little espresso.
It's coffee. As well, there's 110 minutes
from me. It's so good and I bet the
service is amazing when you go there.
Max really cares about the quality of the coffee.
It we we can no longer run social enterprises and assume
that the value comes from the social element.
You still need to produce a really high quality product.
(15:03):
You still need to and you can command a higher price point
because of the social value. I don't think people will come
back if the quality is really poor.
And that's what I love about redemption Roasters.
It's it's good value and good quality.
As well, do you place people with convictions to jobs?
We are like passing ships in thenight when we look at our cohort
(15:24):
of people we mentor and the cohort of employees we support.
We teach both sides how to fish,and we don't always broker the
opportunity in the middle. There are some amazing brokerage
organizations out there, and sometimes we do it based on the
fact it's really convenient. But what I find is a lot of
employers need people yesterday and a lot of individuals with
(15:45):
convictions need a bit of time to prepare for a job.
And it's not always, it doesn't always mutually add up and it's
not always convenient. And what I will say is that what
employers spend on recruitment agencies and where they spend 2
to 5 to $10,000 percentages. I would say invest in a social
organization who are offering, you know, inclusion of some form
(16:08):
amongst A socially excluded group, not just people with
convictions because they tend tofind great candidates.
They'll mentor them in work support.
They'll you'll see the retentiongo through the roof.
I'd rather employers invest in that than than potentially in
recruitment agencies. Kind of short term if you just
play some. Yeah, I think you're looking
like what, a 12 week rebate period and all that?
(16:28):
It seems a bit mad to me. So for me, the mentoring for
anyone with a conviction or any social exclusion has to be
optional. Just because you are someone
with a conviction does not mean you need extra mentoring and
some more. But if you want it, it should be
available to you. Fine.
But then you say well why draw the line at people who have got
some form of social exclusion? What could we offer to all our
(16:49):
colleagues who might need that little bit of extra, especially
if we want to invest and see that individual with us in two,
3-4 years time? Yeah.
And I like that you're thinking about the environments, that
you're the employment environment.
Just because someone got a job, there's no guarantee that they
would not be bullied or discriminate against when
(17:13):
they're on the job. So what has been the most
successful case you've seen? We've seen people with
convictions go across a whole range of roles when I when I
think about it and I think people think people with
convictions go straight into like fast moving consumer goods
or construction work, etcetera. You know, we, we, we've got a
(17:33):
client who's lead project manager who's running this
incredible project for people with convictions is a person
with a criminal conviction and you wouldn't like that, that
that's phenomenal to see. It is literally the organization
going right. We've got 10s of thousands of
staff. We want to make employing people
with convictions business as usual.
Yes, they're working with us as an organization, but they've
(17:56):
appointed their project lead as someone with a conviction and
their offence is it's finance related.
Fine, but it's more of about thefact that they've said we can
only make this work with the voice of lived experience at the
heart of it. So so that that's it, that's it.
That's obviously like what I would say is one of the most
successful and and self healing roles I've ever seen a client
(18:19):
upon. But we've got stories of people
who, for example, have been rough sleeping on the street are
a picture a candidate that we supported in the southwest of
the country. They were sleeping behind a
football stadium every night andthey were part of the benefits
system and they were trying to access it all.
But the, the government got in touch with us and said, can you
(18:40):
provide mentoring and support tothis individual?
And one of our team members wentand supported them.
And it was meeting them like where they like were bringing
them into town for the day, sorting out their bus fare,
buying them a coffee, a meal, having a chat with them,
building up that rapport and relationship.
Because the solution to homelessness isn't necessarily
just getting someone a house. There's there's other bits that
(19:02):
are going on in people's lives to bring them there and meet
them, meet them halfway where they are and start to look at
kind of the future with where they want to be.
Very few people get asked where do you want to be?
Often when you go through government services, it's
typically filling a function. It's balancing a Ledger from,
OK, you're a person on benefits.I need to get you from this
(19:23):
intensive benefit to a less intensive benefit to employment.
I then you then go pay taxes andwe are happy as a government.
It's checked and it's like we can do that.
It's a sugar high and eventuallywe will crash.
So, so we've got to, for me hearing about the guy that moved
from behind the stadium to secured accommodation was
phenomenal. I'll have to follow up to see
(19:45):
whether we ended up going into work.
But for us just to even see him progress through that means we
had an impact. And I bet you there was crime
involved in that lifestyle because to survive it's, it's
pretty difficult out there. So for, as I like the idea that
society's been made safer, yes, but that individual's probably
feeling a heck of a lot happier in that life right now.
And hats off to our team for, for doing that and, and meeting
(20:07):
that individual and building that support pack and feeling
less governmental. We're kind of like an arm's
length service there. We're a bit more socially
focused on. Potentially someone who has to
work behind a desk in the government and deal with a
caseload of 200. People, you're not just doing
this because you have to. It's not, it's not the mandatory
programs that people get put on.You want them to be able to
(20:31):
beyond their feet again. Yeah, I like the idea that we we
know what the the government wants when they Commission our
services. So that's the box to King Heart.
But I say let's take the box, fill it with hope and then give
it to the candidate, to the person we're supporting.
And and that's kind of that, that's the extra added volume
for our commissioners, but we don't do that for them.
The added value for us is that the individual feels that
(20:53):
they're on the right path and ultimately they don't need off
place services because they've found independence and
sustainability in their own life.
And this is what inclusive hiring is about is not just
conviction, it's many, many other aspects, demographic,
social background, all those what, what's the biggest
education you have had to do when you're approaching a new
(21:18):
company that you want to get involved with?
The big thing is, is a question we've already covered, which is
around the perception of what a person with a criminal
conviction is. But to go down to the on the
inclusivity route is that it's ahigh tide rise as many ships and
what you do for one socially excluded group might actually
improve it for everyone, not just those who are socially
(21:40):
excluded. These, you know, you might ask
questions differently to be moreaccommodating for people who
declare they have a site or auditory challenge, fine.
But those that don't declare it also benefit from from you being
a bit more clearer in, in, in the way you handle your your,
your questioning processes or the way you disseminate
information. There's nothing and wrong with
(22:02):
saying let's make all of our text to the reading age of an 11
year old, because that's where, for example, most prisoners
stopped learning. But it would also benefit people
who do have additional needs when it comes to reading,
writing, understanding who mightnever talk about the fact that
they can't spell their own name.I'm sure they can, but I'm
saying that there's there's so much that we see and that is
(22:23):
just the tip of the iceberg. So for me, when when I go
through an inclusive approach, it's that idea of when employers
say we, we, we're nervous about employing people with
convictions, but we're going to run this homeless support
project over here. I will say, well, how many of
those homeless people do you think don't have convictions
(22:44):
because it's a conviction is often a symptom of a social
exclusion. If you are in, in most cases,
there's the the majority of people get involved with crime
through despair and desperation.Yes, there's evil people and
yes, there's stupid people and those who make mistakes.
But I will say the majority of actions come from people in in
(23:05):
poverty, people facing addictionchallenges, people facing prior
abuse leaving the care system, or people that on an individual
social exclusion basis, you would say, well, of course we
should support them. But as soon as you wrap it all
up into a neat little criminal conviction, it also challenges
people. So 2 bits to, to, to answer that
(23:26):
question. One is, is that you, when you
support any social exclusion, you make it easier for everyone,
even those without declared or without social exclusions, you
make it better. And the second part is, is that
when you support people with convictions, you are supporting
multiple social exclusions. And it it's a two way St.
Yeah, I'm sure it's fair. A very everyone has their own
(23:47):
prejudice inside. So whether or not they review
it, they are probably secretly rejecting the candidate because
he or she has a conviction. So I I can understand that
because people are not familiar with what that really means,
like what what that person's past has to do with what they
are doing. And I think it also has to do
(24:10):
with what the role is really right.
Have you been doing our courses like you are like, you know, So
first of all, thank you so much for saying that out loud.
I think it's, it's tough to say.I have prejudice and biases and
I think we're all scared to admit those things.
And that's a great place to start with employers.
(24:33):
People will say there are certain convictions that turn my
stomach and I would never employsomeone with that.
And they might only ever say it in their own head.
And I would love for them to sayit out loud.
I would love for them to say it and one in a room full of their
peers, maybe people in their organization or at their role
level in their professional industry, not to be shot down
(24:54):
nor to create an echo chamber, but first, to hear what it
sounds like out loud. And then second of all, say it
in the presence of a professional.
I know it sounds like therapy, but say it in the presence of
me, for example, because it's for every conviction, I will
give you an individual that you would still employ because you
would say actually, yeah, I understand that circumstance
now. I understand.
Oh, they're not, you know, people the, the abused wife who
(25:17):
gets done for manslaughter after, you know, years of abuse
or the 217 year olds in love in a couple, a couple that share
images of each other and then one of them gets done for
distributed child pornography because they've taken a picture
of their girlfriend or boyfriend.
Or there's all these niches and examples that that you could see
it the other way. So first of all, thank you for
(25:39):
kind of admitting prejudice exists within you, within all of
us and, and, and that side of itall.
But you are right. We need to consider the risk of
the role 1st and then the risk of the individual afterwards.
That's how you you start to say,do we even need to know about
convictions for these roles? Does it really matter?
And that's the type of work we do with employers to help them
(26:00):
say, OK, if we are lifting a piece of wood on site, how do we
prevent a splinter? And you would say, right, well,
you know, ensure that, you know,we lifting with machinery,
ensure people have got gloves onthis.
It's the same with if we're managing money in a finance
director role, how do we stop any person from committing fraud
in that role? And let's have two people sign
(26:22):
off on every bank transaction. Let's do this, let's do that the
other, And then maybe the fraud conviction never really comes
into it. There's a reputational risk,
yes, but a risk of harm and damage much less when you
actually start to say what processes can we put in place,
not to prevent the people with convictions from damaging us,
but to prevent anyone in the role because you don't start out
(26:45):
in life as someone with a conviction.
Yeah, yeah. And it's not to mention their
wrongful convictions, too. True.
I don't know what the percentages are, but it's, I
imagine it's very, very small ofthe numbers.
But yeah, yes. Like I'm sure they exist.
Yeah, and there was a guy who was recently acquitted.
I should know his name. It's such a huge case in the UK
and. And not only was he acquitted
(27:07):
after so many years in prison, but then the Ministry of Justice
tried to charge him board and lodgings for the time that he
was in the prison. I.
Haven't heard about that. Thankfully he kicked up a bit of
a stink and society supported him and that was overturned.
That. That's disgusting.
That's criminal behaviour if youask me.
(27:27):
Oh, I, I just think like, we need to compensate that poor
chap. Yeah.
So there are wrongful convictions.
It's not how we build our processes.
Because as an employer, it's notyour job to judge on someone's
conviction. It's your job to judge on the
suitability of the role and the risk of reputation to you as an
employer. So what you have to take is
someone's conviction in front ofyou, not necessarily someone's
(27:50):
plead of innocence. You have no right, no recourse,
no support for that individual. If they say I was convicted of
this but I didn't do it, it's like brutally I've got to deal
with the conviction in front of me, not your plea.
Yeah, yeah. It's not in the consideration
that the employers need to. You don't need to go into that.
(28:11):
Exactly, but you might want to consider what a role would do
for their future. And that's, that's what you
should do with anyone, not just for people with convictions.
And when I'm asking people to disclose their offence to me, I
will go through a list of questions that help me
understand where they were at the time of their offence,
punishment they received, what they did with their time during
(28:32):
their punishment or as a result of their punishment.
None of this says were you guilty?
Did you do it? And then more importantly, what,
what could a job do for you right now?
And, and, and how will that, youknow, what will that do for your
future and what's your big motivation?
And you find many people go, I actually just want an
opportunity because I want to beable to get my own place and
move out of this, this shared accommodation.
(28:54):
And therefore I'll be able to get my children back in my life
because I can demonstrate. If you imagine employing someone
with that much motivation, with that deep of a motivation,
there's a reason why Timson, forexample, the big shoe cobbler,
sees 74% retention after 12 months in a retail role.
That's huge for retail. Yeah, yeah.
And they would have a certain degree of loyalty too, because
(29:19):
it's not easy for them to get a job.
Yeah, exactly. And that loyalty, it, it shines
through. It shines through in in my
organization with the people we employ, but also with the people
we support. When you get them into work,
they they couldn't be more grateful.
Imagine employing someone who's done like I'm using prisoners as
an example, but anyone who's we lost the job had a label applied
(29:43):
to them, face the stigma of society and they're still put in
200 applications in a day, getting rejected.
And they still turn up to you. They still look at that
interview, They still take the opportunity.
Why wouldn't you take someone who's that determined to move on
from their past? Like who were we not to?
And, and, and knowing that, giving them that chances.
On one side there's loyalty, on the other side their conviction
(30:06):
is disclosable for a certain amount of time if there is, and
they'll stick with you, at leastfor that time.
For me it was my full sentence, 28 months plus four years.
Imagine that length of loyalty and retention where I don't have
to go and disclose to another employer in the next 4 years
until my and when my offence is spent.
Then I might move on. Had someone with you for six
(30:28):
years or so. They've probably progressed,
they're probably doing really well, they probably want to
stick around for a career, whichI don't, I think many people do
nowadays. So it's it's nice to think that
people with convictions might bethat untouched pool.
Really. Yeah.
And I'm a big fan of encouragingpeople who are hiring to be a
little bit more open minded, seebeyond the CV, see what this
(30:50):
person can do based on what theyhave done.
And in in this case, it's a little bit different.
You probably don't want to focuson what they have done.
You're a drug dealer, you're excellent at sales.
Yeah, it doesn't. It doesn't have to be that way.
But there is transferable skillsfrom crime and there's also
transferable in terms of leadership etcetera.
But there's also there's that vulnerability that someone's
(31:12):
giving you the most shameful part of their life and you will
know more about this individual than wills and anyone for those
who don't have convictions, we, we, you know, they, they have
skeletons in their closet that would never be brought up with
an employer. When you disclose A conviction,
you tend to talk about the most shameful part of your life and
how you got there and the journey out and back from that.
That, that is, for me, it's an interviewing superpower if it
(31:36):
can be used in the right way andthe employer doesn't go black
like white in the face and jump out the nearest window, go out
of fear like there's, there's, there's certainly, I think
there's a story to tell with every conviction.
And, and that's, that is an interviewing superpower.
And, and then you look at if people do go to prison or if
people do get community sentences, what have they done
with their time during then? So I'm, I've never, I'm now a
(31:59):
level 2 seamstress for any employers listening that want
to, you know, want me to come and stitch some bits together, I
can do that no problem, thanks to my time in prison.
But what else is done in prisons?
There's people who run courses for, for prisoners as prisoners.
There's people who run cleaning and do all the qualifications
needed for cleaning. There's people who learn IT
skills. There's so much that we could
(32:20):
tap into if we just opened our hearts and stopped, stopped
doing it from not doing it from a fear perspective, but started
looking at it from a curious perspective.
Yeah, and if anyone who needs attention to details, hire
Ralph. Higher, I mean quality, the
quality checking there and the guy who knew what every person's
(32:41):
role was is what you'd want in any colleague in.
Any. And to know that they they stick
around, it goes such a long way.The biggest barrier is the
perception of themselves and your perception of them, and
that's all we really need to work on.
Yeah, and I know you're now alsoon the board of the Institute
for Social Value. Yes, that's yeah I can't believe
(33:03):
they appointed me. I was socially value driven.
As an organization, we mentor and support people.
It generates savings for society.
It it makes your streets safer to you listening to this to this
show today. But I, I my only board
experience is in my own organization and running your
own organization and having a board of people like you appoint
(33:25):
and you're the founder and you're the one that pays
everyone's salaries is. So.
Different to being a volunteer on a board of people who you
look up to and you don't feel you're adequately good enough
Thought like I, I did not feel Iwas like, why did they appoint
me? And I still have this little
chip on my shoulder. I'm a token hire.
I'm a person with a criminal conviction.
(33:45):
And that's the only ISM I've ever had in my life.
By the way, I'm very, I'm very aware of my privilege and who I
am and all this that the other and I and I, I put myself into
social exclusion by, by by getting a criminal conviction.
But once you've got that, the the fact that you feel the hire
was related purely to the conviction or the fact that
everyone in the room knows or the fact it was daunting.
(34:06):
But to be part of influence in the conversation on how society
makes decisions based on social value, how employers do that,
for me, that's super exciting. Can you tell us a little bit
more about what the Institute does?
Absolutely. So the Institute is working to
be the beacon of social value throughout the United Kingdom
(34:28):
through through the Institute ofSocial Value is super exciting.
I mean under the leadership of Isabel Paris Ram, she is a force
of nature. She is absolutely taking this
organization from social value UK to achieving the institute
status and and our ambition as an organization is to be that
central hub for anyone interested in social value and
(34:51):
decisions making on social value.
So here are all the tools, platforms, software you can use.
Here's how the best way to measure social value based on
three different thought pieces and opinions.
Here's at the basic level, what social value is, what social
return of investment is. Here is the government's
ambitions for it and how we should be influencing that
conversation. So it's a membership
(35:13):
organization for those who believe in the social value
space. And I cannot tell you the.
For me, it's a beautiful crossing of worlds because of
Ploy's main customer, social value leaders, employers who the
work in the social value space, you have to demonstrate that
they are making an impact on society and a lot of the way to
(35:35):
demonstrate that is through financial metrics or what's
called social return on investment.
As a as a very quick example, when you employ a person with a
conviction for 12 months, you are generating around 24,527 lbs
or take of savings for Society of social return on investment.
So I'm loving that my 2 worlds are kind of merging on on this
(35:59):
at the moment, but amazing to bepart of something that is.
So I think it's going to become a cornerstone for British
decision making on social value and I'm, I'm really excited
about that. Yeah, I'm.
Really glad that the institute exists because in order for any
company, profit, nonprofit, for them to even consider this, they
(36:21):
they need to justify it. They need to talk to their
decision makers, board members. And so I'm glad there's
something quantifiable that you're now able to show.
That's so true. It, it helps people compare
apples and oranges. But even then I will say there's
always a caveat for any of my social impact colleagues
listening how one person gets tothe their total impact and total
(36:45):
figures and how another one doesit, how one organization does
it. There's always ways to move the
sliders on attribution or or or or dead weight or whatever it
might be across the board, but it at least gives, I think it
gives the purse string holders Ajustification for doing social
good. Yeah, it stops it being around
(37:05):
businesses doing good, but actually being good for
businesses. So I'm like, our conversation
today is not to say that all companies should just hire
people with conviction. We are trying to help everyone
to have an open mind. If you were to sum up what you
(37:27):
want people to take away from our conversation today, what
would it be? I want you to take one, one more
pause and think about, OK, what is my image of, of someone with
a criminal conviction and then start to realise it could be
people, could be anyone among society, it could be and, and a
person with a conviction isn't necessarily always someone that
(37:49):
has intently taken from society or intently causing damage.
It's someone who went down a path due to a number of reasons
in life, as I say, from pure evil to poor decision making.
But majority is is for desperation and challenges
there. I'm not asking for a sob story
or a you know that, that people with convictions need pity.
But I will say that if they're on a journey of rehabilitation
(38:11):
and wanting to contribute society either support them or
at least get out of the way. Don't beat people down, pushing
down further. They have been through something
they want to progress. They want to be part of society.
It could be your nephew, it could be your neighbor.
It could be someone that you just passed by on the street.
This famous celebrity, this celebrities who have convictions
from Stephen Fry to Hugh Grant and and I really want us to
(38:35):
challenge ourselves that people with convictions do move on in
life. They do contribute, they do make
us laugh. They we do fall in love with
them. We do, you know, they do pay
taxes, they do earn their place back, but we've got to stop
getting in their way or or really start supporting them if
they want to do it. And just a massive thank you,
Karen, for this platform and opportunity.
And to your audience who will beconsidering something different
(38:58):
now, I hope who won't think of the Shawshank Redemption next
time they hear the newspaper saylags, you know, did riot in
prison. I like the idea that people will
start to say, OK, there's peopleout there who have a label
applied and it doesn't representeveryone based on that label.
That does not mean one type of person.
That's not just convictions. That's just the entire spectrum
(39:21):
of diversity in our world. And let's do less labels and
more individuals. Yeah, individuals, it's very
important. And listeners, I can tell you
that Jacob doesn't look like what you would imagine he he is.
He has looks nothing like what he described as people's
perception. Who?
(39:43):
Knows still got some. Play something fun, something
more on the individual level that we can know you a little
bit better. OK, Discovery action.
So first one, who's someone who gave you a second chance that
you'll never forget? My investor Nigel, I was
released from prison and and I pitched to him in a pair of
(40:05):
jeans that had a hole in the crotch and I was sweating, I was
shaking and he asked me are you still using drugs based on the
fact of how I was and I said I wasn't.
And he went OK and two weeks after release from prison he
shook my hand, gave me an 18,000LB salary and gave me £18,000 to
start off ploy. Because of him we're now a
million plus turnover organization supporting 1000
(40:27):
people a year. I love that man.
I'm so grateful to him. He was a perfect stranger on the
day I was released. Wow.
He gave me a chance two weeks after we set off, play up six
weeks after. Wow.
Thank you, Nigel. Thank you Nigel for.
Making this happen? Yeah, call him next one when
you're not changing lives. Where would we find you on a day
(40:49):
off? Now I've just had a recently had
a baby and someone asked me whatmy hobbies are.
The moment it's changing nap it's for for sure.
But I you know I really love hiking.
I cannot get enough. So I met my wife on the Camino
de Santiago. We live in Italy and now every
weekend we spend well before this baby came along, we every
(41:12):
weekend we used to hike the Via Francigena, which is a walk that
starts in Canterbury in England and goes all the way to the
Vatican in Rome and then keeps going South to the bottom of
Italy. So every weekend from Rome, we
would walk 2 days and then get the train back and then the next
weekend get the train to the last point and then keep walking
two days and get the train back.I absolutely.
(41:33):
So when, when our little boy canput his back up and sit up right
in a couple of months, he'll be joining us and we'll be
continuing our our Camino at least with more time now rather
than just weekends since we're both on paternity and maternity.
Wow, that's amazing. Thank you.
Are you a snack person? Yes and I'm trying to cut back.
(41:55):
I love sweet stuff and I can't help it.
So now I'm changing my chocolatebars for medjool dates and sweet
pick and mix stuff that is like dried fruits.
So I'm very boring as a snack person unfortunately, but I
admit I am a snacker And and andand we'll always pick up a sweet
tooth wherever come. Me too, especially when you need
(42:17):
to solve some problems. Exactly, solve problems and self
soothe is straight to the Kit Kat.
Me too. Next one.
You have worked with thousands of people turning their lives
around. What's a small everyday win that
will always make you smile? When someone answers their call,
(42:37):
when they attend their appointment, I could talk in
numbers that our attendance has gone up from 50 to 86%, but it's
that 14% that's the hard bit when they don't turn up to the
call, when whatever reason, whatever excuse they've got in
their life, they don't can't make it or they don't want to
commit to off ploys, mentoring and support.
(42:58):
But the ones that do that is a win every day because it's like
we've just done something. Like you've shown someone that
they can turn up, they can commit to something, but that
they can invest in themselves. And I absolutely love seeing
that and hearing that. Yeah, that's I can understand
that you are making an impact onsomeone's life.
(43:20):
They're making one on themselves, so this is more
importantly. Yeah, last one, how do you think
your cellmate will describe you?He will.
He was called Mr. Big, so. So it's not so he might, but the
only type of Mr. Big I'd heard beforehand, but I think was from
Sex and the City. So for me, that gives you an
(43:42):
example of how I was going to get on in prison, right?
I think he would have described me as meek.
The Bible says the meek will inherit the earth.
I believe so. That's also a good thing.
I don't know. I think it'd call me a soft lad.
Not really sure. He says he just kept calling me
Richard Branson because I was. I won an award of him and that
(44:05):
was his only reference. He thought I was posh.
I promise you I'm not. I hope now he described me as
someone who, for all of it, it was worth it.
And I mean, that guy was phenomenal.
I was terrified of him when I first saw him, but he taught me
so much. He taught me how to clean like I
never knew how to clean before. And he was like, look, I clean
the cell like this. And he would get on his hands
(44:26):
and knees this big burly guy whowas like obviously a very
serious gang member. And he would be the first one to
to clean the cell immaculately. He would say that he got on his
hands and knees and he'd wipe the floor with rather than using
a moppy say it's better to do it.
And we take in turns every week to do 1 clean, another clean,
absolutely amazing human taught me so much around how to make a
(44:47):
shelf out of your drawers, how to make glue that's concrete and
cements to the wall out of the coffee whitener that they give
you all these different skills. I know, right?
But that's again, goes back to the ingenuity with, you know,
necessity is the mother of innovation.
It is, it is literally it's phenomenal to see what's in
(45:07):
there. So I hope you'd say that it was,
it was all worth it. But yeah, what a great guy he
was as well, Mr. Big. Yeah, great.
It's always better to have a clean cellmate.
And that's what he said. That's the reason he advocated
to the prison staff that out of all the options give, give me
the posh kid, he said. So there you go.
And I thought he wanted me for something else, so I was really
(45:28):
glad it was just for a clean cell.
Yeah, yeah. Well, thank you so, so much for
talking to me today, Jacob. I know it like it was some heavy
topics that we were discussing. So I really, really appreciate
your openness, sharing your story, doing what you're doing,
and just opening people's minds.You're the one that makes this
(45:50):
platform possible. So thank you, Karen, and thank
you to the Mind Blind Podcast for for doing that.
And huge thanks to the audience for listening through it all
today. Thank you.
Thanks for listening to this episode of Mind One.
If you enjoyed the conversation,don't forget to follow and share
it with anyone who needs to hearit.
And let's keep the conversation going.
(46:11):
Connect with me on LinkedIn or leave me a comment.
Until next time, stay curious, keep exploring, and let's
continue to burn our minds and discover what's possible.
Remember your suitcase that cameback from a trip covered in
scuffs? Looks worn sure, but it still
carries everything you need reliably.
With people we often do the opposite. 1 mark in their pass
and door slammed shut. My guest today, Jacob Hill, know
this first hand. After prison he didn't just
rebuild his life, he built a wayfor thousands of others to do
(00:23):
the same in the UK. So what happens when we go pass
a label and see the whole person?
Let's find out. Welcome to the show Mind Blend.
I'm your host, Karen Chong, and I'll be diving into the minds of
incredible people, each an expert in their very own way.
(00:43):
Together, we'll uncover insightsand share ideas so you can be
inspired and empowered to navigate your own unique journey
in life. Ready to get curious and
discover what's possible? Let's blend.
All right, so today in the studio with me, Air Quote Studio
(01:04):
is Jacob Hill. Hi, Karen, thanks for having me
on the show in the studio, the air studio.
Yeah. So because he's physically in
Venice today, but he's all over the place.
He has been all over the place and we'll find out why.
So Jacob, as I know, it's a prominent entrepreneur, you're
(01:27):
also a LinkedIn top voice advocate for specifically social
value and the context of supporting individuals with
criminal records. Absolutely right.
And you're currently the founderof an organization called Off
Point. And that's not the only thing
you've started. And we'll talk about that a
little bit more. Amazing.
(01:47):
I can't wait all. Right.
So I want to hear from you, yourjourney that ultimately LED you
to start off point. OK, so of Ploys, an organization
that mentors people with criminal convictions, we on one
side support those at risk of offending to access better
(02:07):
opportunities in life and, and, and, and build on a positive
future. And on the other hand, we work
with employers to support them to employ that cohort.
And this isn't the type of job you just you always aspire to do
or I think it's the type of thing you fall into sometimes,
but maybe that's because it's non profit.
(02:27):
It's the social sector. And I find that with a lot of
people who run social organizations, there tends to be
a personal link to the mission or to the work they're doing,
especially if they're the founder.
And I, what led me there was my my own journey through
university, the son of two police officers, having
everything I ever wanted in life, being, you know,
(02:50):
externally very successful from a, a camping business.
Now, I know camping doesn't excite probably many people.
I don't know how many people listen to this podcast, get
excited about it. It certainly didn't excite
enough people for my business tobe successful.
And that camping business ultimately failed and I made
stupid and regretful choices that landed me a prison sentence
(03:11):
related to drugs and I was sentenced to 28 months and
started off in armed prison. But this, it's one of the second
highest for suicides in the UKA really tough Victorian old age
prison falling apart. And it was whilst in prison that
I came up with the idea to startoff Ploy and I'd happily answer
(03:31):
any questions about that. I want to dig into this, the
whole experience a little bit more.
So when you first know that you were going to prison, do you
remember what went through your mind?
There was like one element whereI was first arrested and that
was the biggest wake up call I've had him in my entire life.
(03:53):
I, I was in this not dream state, but this completely
different reality where I was, you know, watching Breaking Bad
and all these films and thinkingthat this isn't all, you know,
this is the route I could go down.
This is what I could do and I could make loads of money and I
can pay back my debts and I can actually be successful at
(04:13):
something because I'm a being a failure at everything else.
This is what I was thinking. And then being arrested, that
was like the first moment, like,oh heck, my parents are going to
find out. I'm going to lose my business
completely. I'm going to embarrass a lot of
prominent figures and people who've believed in and invested
in me. I've thrown away all this
(04:34):
goodwill and support I've built up over these few years.
And so that for me was like the first moment of fear, thinking
what what is going to, what is going to happen.
And then you start to think whatcould have happened.
So the the could have happened could have been OK, I could have
been shot or killed or or overdosed or when I was using in
(04:55):
all of in all of this experience.
And then you finally get to the sentencing when you find out
you're going to prison and it's 11 months.
It took eleven months for the court cases because of the
delays in the courts and etcetera, etcetera.
And those 11 months were worse for me than the 9 1/2 months I
ultimately did in prison becauseI had no idea of what prison was
(05:18):
going to be like. So I painted the absolute worst
picture expecting being attackedin the showers, expecting being
beaten up every day, all of this, the 11 months of anxiety
and fear and people will listen to this and say great, that's
what you deserve. Someone I imagine as well.
But the anxiety and fear of of going to prison for me was much
(05:41):
worse than the prison experience.
But it doesn't mean it was a good prison experience.
At the point of sentencing therewas just relief that there was
at least an end or at least an end day to point this would all
be over because I didn't know ifI was going to be let out of the
courts that day or be given a nine year prison sentence.
So to land at 2 and a bit years,almost three, that was.
(06:02):
It was a relief to at least knowthat it was going to be over
soon. Yeah, it must have been torture,
the 11 months. We're our own worst enemies.
We think of our imaginations. There's we've been brought up to
we, we are genetically wired to be scared of the dark, to
understand, you know, there's monsters and predators in there
(06:23):
and don't go near it. The dark is, is an uncertain
future for for some people. And that can scare the heck out
of people, not just those facinga prison sentence, but those
with uncertainty in their life anyway.
Yeah. So I'm sure you didn't have the
idea of I'm going to start awfully.
The day you entered so did. Did you remember how it sort of
(06:47):
manifested? It was in the sewing machine
workshop. So my job was to sew together
200 different 200 pairs of boxershorts every day for the prison
estate. And I remember my, my line
manager, a guy called Ralph. And Ralph was think in a prison,
people don't care. And we were sewing together
(07:09):
these 200 boxer shots and we're a team of five.
And we'd get qualifications withit.
Yes. And I was doing the hems and
then I'd move to another bit andthe overlocking machine.
And it was really exciting to see progression.
And our line manager between thefour or five was, was, was
Ralph. And they were people who were,
and Ralph was looking at every single pair of boxer shot.
(07:31):
He only had to do a 20% audit, but he was doing a 100% audit on
every pair and he was snipping the fine threads off.
He had time. You have time in prison.
And I was like, Ralph, why? Why are you doing that?
You have to only check one in five.
Why are you checking 100%? And he went, first of all, I've
got all the time in the world. Second of all, we are judged as
(07:51):
a team on the quality, production and output here.
So everyone of you plays a part in all of this.
And third of all, on the first night someone gets in prison,
they might have been living rough on the streets.
They might have, you know, messed their pants in in the
fear of the situation. They could have whatever reason
he says, and this might be the first dignified item they get
(08:11):
that's theirs in prison. That's neat.
That's and it just blew me away.Did this because Ralph before I
went to prison would have been someone that I looked down upon
someone that I thought that was a bit rough for someone that was
a drug user and all. And in prison he was a shining
example. He was someone who we would all
employ. He was someone who would have
absolutely, why wouldn't you want someone like Ralph?
(08:32):
And prison for him was a way that he was clean.
He was had structure, he had artery, had responsibility, he
had root. He had all of this.
And it's just like, for me, I was like if I could just show
employers people like Ralph, I think our perception of what a
person with a criminal conviction would change his
offence hasn't come into this discussion or conversation.
(08:52):
His work ethic, his drive, his determination, his care for your
product has. And I want to show more
employers people like Ralph. And since starting we've
supported over 4000 people with criminal convictions.
So for me, it's absolutely amazing that the idea came from
a sewing machine workshop in a prison and has now gone on to
support many more people as a result of it.
(09:12):
Yeah, that's very noble of him. Just because he has had a
conviction, just because he's inprison, doesn't mean he's
rubbish, no. Yeah, of course, but neither
anyone else that comes in. He has no idea who those boxer
shorts are going to. He does understand the
experience of how daunting the first night could be regardless
of who you are. And he's looking beyond
(09:35):
whoever's going to use it, just more about that there's an
individual that that that might.He was mission driven on a pair
of boxer shots. And that's what I love.
Like, I just think it's like, you can find it in anything.
And if I could convince my bookkeeper or accountant to
understand how their role is helping people with convictions
get worked, like Ralph understood how boxer shots are
making the prison experience better, then I'll crack it.
(09:56):
I'll have cracked it. But I've not got, I've not found
that out yet. So I'm excited to keep learning
from Ralph and the memory of him.
Yeah, well, kudos to him and kudos to you for seeing this,
seeing there's an opportunity, there's a gap in the market and
doing something about it. Thank you so much.
So now that you have started off, boy, I'm sure you must have
(10:18):
seen a lot of misperception of people with convictions, whether
or not they went to prison. What are some of those?
Such a good point. I mean, you've straight away you
have hit what it takes me hours to explain to people that not
all people with convictions are ex prisoners.
So if the listeners you know right now driving in their car
(10:39):
or, or, or or they're on their commute in some way, or they're
just having a moment with me andjust think about when you hear
people with convictions, when you hear ex offender, what image
comes to mind? Criminals.
It's. Dangerous.
People dangerous people. I pictured 6 foot tall Skinhead
scar down the face, missing teeth, tattooed knuckles with
(11:02):
love and hate on either side. This was my image of an ex
offender before I went to prison.
I'm I'm the son of two police officers.
I've only ever seen the Shawshank Redemption, Prison
break, Orange is the New Black to shape my idea of what a
person with a criminal conviction is.
I only know the notorious headlines from the newspapers of
the worst criminals that go to prison because that that sells
(11:25):
newspapers. Yeah.
What we we don't think about is that one in four adults in the
UK, so 25% of our working age population has a criminal
conviction over 50. Percent of T5. 25%, we are
walking around amongst 12.6 million people with convictions,
well over 50% are for driving related offences and for our
(11:48):
colleagues in their cars today are listening away that even
speeding points counts as a criminal conviction.
But I know that that's not what people think about when they
think of people with convictions.
And when they say we wouldn't hire them as a company, for
example, they would say, well, obviously that doesn't include
driving convictions, but the, the number of violence offences
(12:08):
are, are incredibly low. It's within the less than 10%.
When we think about people who are, are kind of in prisons and,
and when we think about people with criminal convictions, it's
a such a broad range of people that it could be anything from
fraud related right through to, to challenging offences that I
know we all might come to mind. And only 8% of people sentenced
to prison are sentenced to prison in the UK every year, 92%
(12:32):
of people get community sentences.
So when we're the first thing wedo is that the big perceptions
we we have to challenge is that one, people with convictions
represent almost everyone. And two, we need to stop
thinking about them as a group of people with convictions, but
start to hear like Jacob's story, Ralph's story and start
to recognise it could be someonein your family, it could be
(12:54):
someone, you know, down the street and not necessarily
people that mean you or will cause you harm.
So for us, we've got to do a lotof perception changing around
that, Karen, for sure. So do you work with both people
with convictions and employers? Yes, we're both sides of the
fence, to use a jail related pun, but we we much on one side,
(13:17):
sit with corporates and large organisations to help them make
employing people with convictions business as usual.
And I'll say business as usual because it's not just about
hiring people with convictions, it's about supporting them.
What happens when existing conviction, we work with one
employer that has 30,000 staff, one that has 10,000 staff and
(13:39):
you picture those statistics of one in four adults of working
age as a conviction. These big companies cannot
afford to have a blanket ban on people with convictions.
They would use all of their a large portion of their talent.
So yes, we work with employers on one side and then our team of
amazing mentors, 7 in 10 of themalso have a conviction
(14:00):
themselves out of our mentors. And we'll take individuals who
are at risk of offending, not just those who have been
convicted and taking through a nine step transformative journey
to to achieving their life goals.
So side note, have you heard of this coffee company called
Redemption? Redemption Roasters Lending?
(14:21):
Yeah. I have it started by an
incredible human called Max Dubiel.
And you, there's now 12 or something coffee shops across
London, as well as, yeah, as well as roasteries inside the
prison. So Max has absolutely shown how
business is not just doing good,it's good for business.
If you are walking around London, look for your nearest
(14:42):
redemption roses and grab yourself a little espresso.
It's coffee. As well, there's 110 minutes
from me. It's so good and I bet the
service is amazing when you go there.
Max really cares about the quality of the coffee.
It we we can no longer run social enterprises and assume
that the value comes from the social element.
You still need to produce a really high quality product.
(15:03):
You still need to and you can command a higher price point
because of the social value. I don't think people will come
back if the quality is really poor.
And that's what I love about redemption Roasters.
It's it's good value and good quality.
As well, do you place people with convictions to jobs?
We are like passing ships in thenight when we look at our cohort
(15:24):
of people we mentor and the cohort of employees we support.
We teach both sides how to fish,and we don't always broker the
opportunity in the middle. There are some amazing brokerage
organizations out there, and sometimes we do it based on the
fact it's really convenient. But what I find is a lot of
employers need people yesterday and a lot of individuals with
(15:45):
convictions need a bit of time to prepare for a job.
And it's not always, it doesn't always mutually add up and it's
not always convenient. And what I will say is that what
employers spend on recruitment agencies and where they spend 2
to 5 to $10,000 percentages. I would say invest in a social
organization who are offering, you know, inclusion of some form
(16:08):
amongst A socially excluded group, not just people with
convictions because they tend tofind great candidates.
They'll mentor them in work support.
They'll you'll see the retentiongo through the roof.
I'd rather employers invest in that than than potentially in
recruitment agencies. Kind of short term if you just
play some. Yeah, I think you're looking
like what, a 12 week rebate period and all that?
(16:28):
It seems a bit mad to me. So for me, the mentoring for
anyone with a conviction or any social exclusion has to be
optional. Just because you are someone
with a conviction does not mean you need extra mentoring and
some more. But if you want it, it should be
available to you. Fine.
But then you say well why draw the line at people who have got
some form of social exclusion? What could we offer to all our
(16:49):
colleagues who might need that little bit of extra, especially
if we want to invest and see that individual with us in two,
3-4 years time? Yeah.
And I like that you're thinking about the environments, that
you're the employment environment.
Just because someone got a job, there's no guarantee that they
would not be bullied or discriminate against when
(17:13):
they're on the job. So what has been the most
successful case you've seen? We've seen people with
convictions go across a whole range of roles when I when I
think about it and I think people think people with
convictions go straight into like fast moving consumer goods
or construction work, etcetera. You know, we, we, we've got a
(17:33):
client who's lead project manager who's running this
incredible project for people with convictions is a person
with a criminal conviction and you wouldn't like that, that
that's phenomenal to see. It is literally the organization
going right. We've got 10s of thousands of
staff. We want to make employing people
with convictions business as usual.
Yes, they're working with us as an organization, but they've
(17:56):
appointed their project lead as someone with a conviction and
their offence is it's finance related.
Fine, but it's more of about thefact that they've said we can
only make this work with the voice of lived experience at the
heart of it. So so that that's it, that's it.
That's obviously like what I would say is one of the most
successful and and self healing roles I've ever seen a client
(18:19):
upon. But we've got stories of people
who, for example, have been rough sleeping on the street are
a picture a candidate that we supported in the southwest of
the country. They were sleeping behind a
football stadium every night andthey were part of the benefits
system and they were trying to access it all.
But the, the government got in touch with us and said, can you
(18:40):
provide mentoring and support tothis individual?
And one of our team members wentand supported them.
And it was meeting them like where they like were bringing
them into town for the day, sorting out their bus fare,
buying them a coffee, a meal, having a chat with them,
building up that rapport and relationship.
Because the solution to homelessness isn't necessarily
just getting someone a house. There's there's other bits that
(19:02):
are going on in people's lives to bring them there and meet
them, meet them halfway where they are and start to look at
kind of the future with where they want to be.
Very few people get asked where do you want to be?
Often when you go through government services, it's
typically filling a function. It's balancing a Ledger from,
OK, you're a person on benefits.I need to get you from this
(19:23):
intensive benefit to a less intensive benefit to employment.
I then you then go pay taxes andwe are happy as a government.
It's checked and it's like we can do that.
It's a sugar high and eventuallywe will crash.
So, so we've got to, for me hearing about the guy that moved
from behind the stadium to secured accommodation was
phenomenal. I'll have to follow up to see
(19:45):
whether we ended up going into work.
But for us just to even see him progress through that means we
had an impact. And I bet you there was crime
involved in that lifestyle because to survive it's, it's
pretty difficult out there. So for, as I like the idea that
society's been made safer, yes, but that individual's probably
feeling a heck of a lot happier in that life right now.
And hats off to our team for, for doing that and, and meeting
(20:07):
that individual and building that support pack and feeling
less governmental. We're kind of like an arm's
length service there. We're a bit more socially
focused on. Potentially someone who has to
work behind a desk in the government and deal with a
caseload of 200. People, you're not just doing
this because you have to. It's not, it's not the mandatory
programs that people get put on.You want them to be able to
(20:31):
beyond their feet again. Yeah, I like the idea that we we
know what the the government wants when they Commission our
services. So that's the box to King Heart.
But I say let's take the box, fill it with hope and then give
it to the candidate, to the person we're supporting.
And and that's kind of that, that's the extra added volume
for our commissioners, but we don't do that for them.
The added value for us is that the individual feels that
(20:53):
they're on the right path and ultimately they don't need off
place services because they've found independence and
sustainability in their own life.
And this is what inclusive hiring is about is not just
conviction, it's many, many other aspects, demographic,
social background, all those what, what's the biggest
education you have had to do when you're approaching a new
(21:18):
company that you want to get involved with?
The big thing is, is a question we've already covered, which is
around the perception of what a person with a criminal
conviction is. But to go down to the on the
inclusivity route is that it's ahigh tide rise as many ships and
what you do for one socially excluded group might actually
improve it for everyone, not just those who are socially
(21:40):
excluded. These, you know, you might ask
questions differently to be moreaccommodating for people who
declare they have a site or auditory challenge, fine.
But those that don't declare it also benefit from from you being
a bit more clearer in, in, in the way you handle your your,
your questioning processes or the way you disseminate
information. There's nothing and wrong with
(22:02):
saying let's make all of our text to the reading age of an 11
year old, because that's where, for example, most prisoners
stopped learning. But it would also benefit people
who do have additional needs when it comes to reading,
writing, understanding who mightnever talk about the fact that
they can't spell their own name.I'm sure they can, but I'm
saying that there's there's so much that we see and that is
(22:23):
just the tip of the iceberg. So for me, when when I go
through an inclusive approach, it's that idea of when employers
say we, we, we're nervous about employing people with
convictions, but we're going to run this homeless support
project over here. I will say, well, how many of
those homeless people do you think don't have convictions
(22:44):
because it's a conviction is often a symptom of a social
exclusion. If you are in, in most cases,
there's the the majority of people get involved with crime
through despair and desperation.Yes, there's evil people and
yes, there's stupid people and those who make mistakes.
But I will say the majority of actions come from people in in
(23:05):
poverty, people facing addictionchallenges, people facing prior
abuse leaving the care system, or people that on an individual
social exclusion basis, you would say, well, of course we
should support them. But as soon as you wrap it all
up into a neat little criminal conviction, it also challenges
people. So 2 bits to, to, to answer that
(23:26):
question. One is, is that you, when you
support any social exclusion, you make it easier for everyone,
even those without declared or without social exclusions, you
make it better. And the second part is, is that
when you support people with convictions, you are supporting
multiple social exclusions. And it it's a two way St.
Yeah, I'm sure it's fair. A very everyone has their own
(23:47):
prejudice inside. So whether or not they review
it, they are probably secretly rejecting the candidate because
he or she has a conviction. So I I can understand that
because people are not familiar with what that really means,
like what what that person's past has to do with what they
are doing. And I think it also has to do
(24:10):
with what the role is really right.
Have you been doing our courses like you are like, you know, So
first of all, thank you so much for saying that out loud.
I think it's, it's tough to say.I have prejudice and biases and
I think we're all scared to admit those things.
And that's a great place to start with employers.
(24:33):
People will say there are certain convictions that turn my
stomach and I would never employsomeone with that.
And they might only ever say it in their own head.
And I would love for them to sayit out loud.
I would love for them to say it and one in a room full of their
peers, maybe people in their organization or at their role
level in their professional industry, not to be shot down
(24:54):
nor to create an echo chamber, but first, to hear what it
sounds like out loud. And then second of all, say it
in the presence of a professional.
I know it sounds like therapy, but say it in the presence of
me, for example, because it's for every conviction, I will
give you an individual that you would still employ because you
would say actually, yeah, I understand that circumstance
now. I understand.
Oh, they're not, you know, people the, the abused wife who
(25:17):
gets done for manslaughter after, you know, years of abuse
or the 217 year olds in love in a couple, a couple that share
images of each other and then one of them gets done for
distributed child pornography because they've taken a picture
of their girlfriend or boyfriend.
Or there's all these niches and examples that that you could see
it the other way. So first of all, thank you for
(25:39):
kind of admitting prejudice exists within you, within all of
us and, and, and that side of itall.
But you are right. We need to consider the risk of
the role 1st and then the risk of the individual afterwards.
That's how you you start to say,do we even need to know about
convictions for these roles? Does it really matter?
And that's the type of work we do with employers to help them
(26:00):
say, OK, if we are lifting a piece of wood on site, how do we
prevent a splinter? And you would say, right, well,
you know, ensure that, you know,we lifting with machinery,
ensure people have got gloves onthis.
It's the same with if we're managing money in a finance
director role, how do we stop any person from committing fraud
in that role? And let's have two people sign
(26:22):
off on every bank transaction. Let's do this, let's do that the
other, And then maybe the fraud conviction never really comes
into it. There's a reputational risk,
yes, but a risk of harm and damage much less when you
actually start to say what processes can we put in place,
not to prevent the people with convictions from damaging us,
but to prevent anyone in the role because you don't start out
(26:45):
in life as someone with a conviction.
Yeah, yeah. And it's not to mention their
wrongful convictions, too. True.
I don't know what the percentages are, but it's, I
imagine it's very, very small ofthe numbers.
But yeah, yes. Like I'm sure they exist.
Yeah, and there was a guy who was recently acquitted.
I should know his name. It's such a huge case in the UK
and. And not only was he acquitted
(27:07):
after so many years in prison, but then the Ministry of Justice
tried to charge him board and lodgings for the time that he
was in the prison. I.
Haven't heard about that. Thankfully he kicked up a bit of
a stink and society supported him and that was overturned.
That. That's disgusting.
That's criminal behaviour if youask me.
(27:27):
Oh, I, I just think like, we need to compensate that poor
chap. Yeah.
So there are wrongful convictions.
It's not how we build our processes.
Because as an employer, it's notyour job to judge on someone's
conviction. It's your job to judge on the
suitability of the role and the risk of reputation to you as an
employer. So what you have to take is
someone's conviction in front ofyou, not necessarily someone's
(27:50):
plead of innocence. You have no right, no recourse,
no support for that individual. If they say I was convicted of
this but I didn't do it, it's like brutally I've got to deal
with the conviction in front of me, not your plea.
Yeah, yeah. It's not in the consideration
that the employers need to. You don't need to go into that.
(28:11):
Exactly, but you might want to consider what a role would do
for their future. And that's, that's what you
should do with anyone, not just for people with convictions.
And when I'm asking people to disclose their offence to me, I
will go through a list of questions that help me
understand where they were at the time of their offence,
punishment they received, what they did with their time during
(28:32):
their punishment or as a result of their punishment.
None of this says were you guilty?
Did you do it? And then more importantly, what,
what could a job do for you right now?
And, and, and how will that, youknow, what will that do for your
future and what's your big motivation?
And you find many people go, I actually just want an
opportunity because I want to beable to get my own place and
move out of this, this shared accommodation.
(28:54):
And therefore I'll be able to get my children back in my life
because I can demonstrate. If you imagine employing someone
with that much motivation, with that deep of a motivation,
there's a reason why Timson, forexample, the big shoe cobbler,
sees 74% retention after 12 months in a retail role.
That's huge for retail. Yeah, yeah.
And they would have a certain degree of loyalty too, because
(29:19):
it's not easy for them to get a job.
Yeah, exactly. And that loyalty, it, it shines
through. It shines through in in my
organization with the people we employ, but also with the people
we support. When you get them into work,
they they couldn't be more grateful.
Imagine employing someone who's done like I'm using prisoners as
an example, but anyone who's we lost the job had a label applied
(29:43):
to them, face the stigma of society and they're still put in
200 applications in a day, getting rejected.
And they still turn up to you. They still look at that
interview, They still take the opportunity.
Why wouldn't you take someone who's that determined to move on
from their past? Like who were we not to?
And, and, and knowing that, giving them that chances.
On one side there's loyalty, on the other side their conviction
(30:06):
is disclosable for a certain amount of time if there is, and
they'll stick with you, at leastfor that time.
For me it was my full sentence, 28 months plus four years.
Imagine that length of loyalty and retention where I don't have
to go and disclose to another employer in the next 4 years
until my and when my offence is spent.
Then I might move on. Had someone with you for six
(30:28):
years or so. They've probably progressed,
they're probably doing really well, they probably want to
stick around for a career, whichI don't, I think many people do
nowadays. So it's it's nice to think that
people with convictions might bethat untouched pool.
Really. Yeah.
And I'm a big fan of encouragingpeople who are hiring to be a
little bit more open minded, seebeyond the CV, see what this
(30:50):
person can do based on what theyhave done.
And in in this case, it's a little bit different.
You probably don't want to focuson what they have done.
You're a drug dealer, you're excellent at sales.
Yeah, it doesn't. It doesn't have to be that way.
But there is transferable skillsfrom crime and there's also
transferable in terms of leadership etcetera.
But there's also there's that vulnerability that someone's
(31:12):
giving you the most shameful part of their life and you will
know more about this individual than wills and anyone for those
who don't have convictions, we, we, you know, they, they have
skeletons in their closet that would never be brought up with
an employer. When you disclose A conviction,
you tend to talk about the most shameful part of your life and
how you got there and the journey out and back from that.
That, that is, for me, it's an interviewing superpower if it
(31:36):
can be used in the right way andthe employer doesn't go black
like white in the face and jump out the nearest window, go out
of fear like there's, there's, there's certainly, I think
there's a story to tell with every conviction.
And, and that's, that is an interviewing superpower.
And, and then you look at if people do go to prison or if
people do get community sentences, what have they done
with their time during then? So I'm, I've never, I'm now a
(31:59):
level 2 seamstress for any employers listening that want
to, you know, want me to come and stitch some bits together, I
can do that no problem, thanks to my time in prison.
But what else is done in prisons?
There's people who run courses for, for prisoners as prisoners.
There's people who run cleaning and do all the qualifications
needed for cleaning. There's people who learn IT
skills. There's so much that we could
(32:20):
tap into if we just opened our hearts and stopped, stopped
doing it from not doing it from a fear perspective, but started
looking at it from a curious perspective.
Yeah, and if anyone who needs attention to details, hire
Ralph. Higher, I mean quality, the
quality checking there and the guy who knew what every person's
(32:41):
role was is what you'd want in any colleague in.
Any. And to know that they they stick
around, it goes such a long way.The biggest barrier is the
perception of themselves and your perception of them, and
that's all we really need to work on.
Yeah, and I know you're now alsoon the board of the Institute
for Social Value. Yes, that's yeah I can't believe
(33:03):
they appointed me. I was socially value driven.
As an organization, we mentor and support people.
It generates savings for society.
It it makes your streets safer to you listening to this to this
show today. But I, I my only board
experience is in my own organization and running your
own organization and having a board of people like you appoint
(33:25):
and you're the founder and you're the one that pays
everyone's salaries is. So.
Different to being a volunteer on a board of people who you
look up to and you don't feel you're adequately good enough
Thought like I, I did not feel Iwas like, why did they appoint
me? And I still have this little
chip on my shoulder. I'm a token hire.
I'm a person with a criminal conviction.
(33:45):
And that's the only ISM I've ever had in my life.
By the way, I'm very, I'm very aware of my privilege and who I
am and all this that the other and I and I, I put myself into
social exclusion by, by by getting a criminal conviction.
But once you've got that, the the fact that you feel the hire
was related purely to the conviction or the fact that
everyone in the room knows or the fact it was daunting.
(34:06):
But to be part of influence in the conversation on how society
makes decisions based on social value, how employers do that,
for me, that's super exciting. Can you tell us a little bit
more about what the Institute does?
Absolutely. So the Institute is working to
be the beacon of social value throughout the United Kingdom
(34:28):
through through the Institute ofSocial Value is super exciting.
I mean under the leadership of Isabel Paris Ram, she is a force
of nature. She is absolutely taking this
organization from social value UK to achieving the institute
status and and our ambition as an organization is to be that
central hub for anyone interested in social value and
(34:51):
decisions making on social value.
So here are all the tools, platforms, software you can use.
Here's how the best way to measure social value based on
three different thought pieces and opinions.
Here's at the basic level, what social value is, what social
return of investment is. Here is the government's
ambitions for it and how we should be influencing that
conversation. So it's a membership
(35:13):
organization for those who believe in the social value
space. And I cannot tell you the.
For me, it's a beautiful crossing of worlds because of
Ploy's main customer, social value leaders, employers who the
work in the social value space, you have to demonstrate that
they are making an impact on society and a lot of the way to
(35:35):
demonstrate that is through financial metrics or what's
called social return on investment.
As a as a very quick example, when you employ a person with a
conviction for 12 months, you are generating around 24,527 lbs
or take of savings for Society of social return on investment.
So I'm loving that my 2 worlds are kind of merging on on this
(35:59):
at the moment, but amazing to bepart of something that is.
So I think it's going to become a cornerstone for British
decision making on social value and I'm, I'm really excited
about that. Yeah, I'm.
Really glad that the institute exists because in order for any
company, profit, nonprofit, for them to even consider this, they
(36:21):
they need to justify it. They need to talk to their
decision makers, board members. And so I'm glad there's
something quantifiable that you're now able to show.
That's so true. It, it helps people compare
apples and oranges. But even then I will say there's
always a caveat for any of my social impact colleagues
listening how one person gets tothe their total impact and total
(36:45):
figures and how another one doesit, how one organization does
it. There's always ways to move the
sliders on attribution or or or or dead weight or whatever it
might be across the board, but it at least gives, I think it
gives the purse string holders Ajustification for doing social
good. Yeah, it stops it being around
(37:05):
businesses doing good, but actually being good for
businesses. So I'm like, our conversation
today is not to say that all companies should just hire
people with conviction. We are trying to help everyone
to have an open mind. If you were to sum up what you
(37:27):
want people to take away from our conversation today, what
would it be? I want you to take one, one more
pause and think about, OK, what is my image of, of someone with
a criminal conviction and then start to realise it could be
people, could be anyone among society, it could be and, and a
person with a conviction isn't necessarily always someone that
(37:49):
has intently taken from society or intently causing damage.
It's someone who went down a path due to a number of reasons
in life, as I say, from pure evil to poor decision making.
But majority is is for desperation and challenges
there. I'm not asking for a sob story
or a you know that, that people with convictions need pity.
But I will say that if they're on a journey of rehabilitation
(38:11):
and wanting to contribute society either support them or
at least get out of the way. Don't beat people down, pushing
down further. They have been through something
they want to progress. They want to be part of society.
It could be your nephew, it could be your neighbor.
It could be someone that you just passed by on the street.
This famous celebrity, this celebrities who have convictions
from Stephen Fry to Hugh Grant and and I really want us to
(38:35):
challenge ourselves that people with convictions do move on in
life. They do contribute, they do make
us laugh. They we do fall in love with
them. We do, you know, they do pay
taxes, they do earn their place back, but we've got to stop
getting in their way or or really start supporting them if
they want to do it. And just a massive thank you,
Karen, for this platform and opportunity.
And to your audience who will beconsidering something different
(38:58):
now, I hope who won't think of the Shawshank Redemption next
time they hear the newspaper saylags, you know, did riot in
prison. I like the idea that people will
start to say, OK, there's peopleout there who have a label
applied and it doesn't representeveryone based on that label.
That does not mean one type of person.
That's not just convictions. That's just the entire spectrum
(39:21):
of diversity in our world. And let's do less labels and
more individuals. Yeah, individuals, it's very
important. And listeners, I can tell you
that Jacob doesn't look like what you would imagine he he is.
He has looks nothing like what he described as people's
perception. Who?
(39:43):
Knows still got some. Play something fun, something
more on the individual level that we can know you a little
bit better. OK, Discovery action.
So first one, who's someone who gave you a second chance that
you'll never forget? My investor Nigel, I was
released from prison and and I pitched to him in a pair of
(40:05):
jeans that had a hole in the crotch and I was sweating, I was
shaking and he asked me are you still using drugs based on the
fact of how I was and I said I wasn't.
And he went OK and two weeks after release from prison he
shook my hand, gave me an 18,000LB salary and gave me £18,000 to
start off ploy. Because of him we're now a
million plus turnover organization supporting 1000
(40:27):
people a year. I love that man.
I'm so grateful to him. He was a perfect stranger on the
day I was released. Wow.
He gave me a chance two weeks after we set off, play up six
weeks after. Wow.
Thank you, Nigel. Thank you Nigel for.
Making this happen? Yeah, call him next one when
you're not changing lives. Where would we find you on a day
(40:49):
off? Now I've just had a recently had
a baby and someone asked me whatmy hobbies are.
The moment it's changing nap it's for for sure.
But I you know I really love hiking.
I cannot get enough. So I met my wife on the Camino
de Santiago. We live in Italy and now every
weekend we spend well before this baby came along, we every
(41:12):
weekend we used to hike the Via Francigena, which is a walk that
starts in Canterbury in England and goes all the way to the
Vatican in Rome and then keeps going South to the bottom of
Italy. So every weekend from Rome, we
would walk 2 days and then get the train back and then the next
weekend get the train to the last point and then keep walking
two days and get the train back.I absolutely.
(41:33):
So when, when our little boy canput his back up and sit up right
in a couple of months, he'll be joining us and we'll be
continuing our our Camino at least with more time now rather
than just weekends since we're both on paternity and maternity.
Wow, that's amazing. Thank you.
Are you a snack person? Yes and I'm trying to cut back.
(41:55):
I love sweet stuff and I can't help it.
So now I'm changing my chocolatebars for medjool dates and sweet
pick and mix stuff that is like dried fruits.
So I'm very boring as a snack person unfortunately, but I
admit I am a snacker And and andand we'll always pick up a sweet
tooth wherever come. Me too, especially when you need
(42:17):
to solve some problems. Exactly, solve problems and self
soothe is straight to the Kit Kat.
Me too. Next one.
You have worked with thousands of people turning their lives
around. What's a small everyday win that
will always make you smile? When someone answers their call,
(42:37):
when they attend their appointment, I could talk in
numbers that our attendance has gone up from 50 to 86%, but it's
that 14% that's the hard bit when they don't turn up to the
call, when whatever reason, whatever excuse they've got in
their life, they don't can't make it or they don't want to
commit to off ploys, mentoring and support.
(42:58):
But the ones that do that is a win every day because it's like
we've just done something. Like you've shown someone that
they can turn up, they can commit to something, but that
they can invest in themselves. And I absolutely love seeing
that and hearing that. Yeah, that's I can understand
that you are making an impact onsomeone's life.
(43:20):
They're making one on themselves, so this is more
importantly. Yeah, last one, how do you think
your cellmate will describe you?He will.
He was called Mr. Big, so. So it's not so he might, but the
only type of Mr. Big I'd heard beforehand, but I think was from
Sex and the City. So for me, that gives you an
(43:42):
example of how I was going to get on in prison, right?
I think he would have described me as meek.
The Bible says the meek will inherit the earth.
I believe so. That's also a good thing.
I don't know. I think it'd call me a soft lad.
Not really sure. He says he just kept calling me
Richard Branson because I was. I won an award of him and that
(44:05):
was his only reference. He thought I was posh.
I promise you I'm not. I hope now he described me as
someone who, for all of it, it was worth it.
And I mean, that guy was phenomenal.
I was terrified of him when I first saw him, but he taught me
so much. He taught me how to clean like I
never knew how to clean before. And he was like, look, I clean
the cell like this. And he would get on his hands
(44:26):
and knees this big burly guy whowas like obviously a very
serious gang member. And he would be the first one to
to clean the cell immaculately. He would say that he got on his
hands and knees and he'd wipe the floor with rather than using
a moppy say it's better to do it.
And we take in turns every week to do 1 clean, another clean,
absolutely amazing human taught me so much around how to make a
(44:47):
shelf out of your drawers, how to make glue that's concrete and
cements to the wall out of the coffee whitener that they give
you all these different skills. I know, right?
But that's again, goes back to the ingenuity with, you know,
necessity is the mother of innovation.
It is, it is literally it's phenomenal to see what's in
(45:07):
there. So I hope you'd say that it was,
it was all worth it. But yeah, what a great guy he
was as well, Mr. Big. Yeah, great.
It's always better to have a clean cellmate.
And that's what he said. That's the reason he advocated
to the prison staff that out of all the options give, give me
the posh kid, he said. So there you go.
And I thought he wanted me for something else, so I was really
(45:28):
glad it was just for a clean cell.
Yeah, yeah. Well, thank you so, so much for
talking to me today, Jacob. I know it like it was some heavy
topics that we were discussing. So I really, really appreciate
your openness, sharing your story, doing what you're doing,
and just opening people's minds.You're the one that makes this
(45:50):
platform possible. So thank you, Karen, and thank
you to the Mind Blind Podcast for for doing that.
And huge thanks to the audience for listening through it all
today. Thank you.
Thanks for listening to this episode of Mind One.
If you enjoyed the conversation,don't forget to follow and share
it with anyone who needs to hearit.
And let's keep the conversation going.
(46:11):
Connect with me on LinkedIn or leave me a comment.
Until next time, stay curious, keep exploring, and let's
continue to burn our minds and discover what's possible.
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