September 11, 2025 • 58 mins
Can a horse take the place of your therapist? Well, perhaps we shouldn't go that far since we're a big fan of therapy over here... In this episode, Nicole is joined by Dr. Ashley Dial who shares how horses serve as powerful therapeutic partners in her coaching practice. Plot twist: Nicole worked with Dr. Dial and shares a bit about her firsthand experience working with the horses. Today they discuss:
- Depth psychology and developing a relationship with your unconscious psyche to guide healing.
- Burnout and its relationship with trauma cycles.
- How horses mirror human's emotions.
- The horse-human bond and the healing that can result.
- Nicole's favorite horse, Gator, and his struggle with confidence.
- Converted bus life on the "Cowgirl Caravan".
- The healing power of female friendships and why they get a bad rep.
Whether you're seeking greater confidence or simply horse-curious, this conversation offers a glimpse into a fascinating approach to wellness that combines ancient wisdom with modern psychology. Subscribe now and join this exploration of what it means to live a happy life in an increasingly complicated world.
Host: Nicole Swisher
Guest: Dr. Ashley Dial - antlerandash.com
Recommendations:
- Get back to basics: sleep hygiene, diet, and movement.
- The Lunar Chronicles by Marissa Meyer
Connect with Nicole:
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Bon Charge Affiliate Link - Get some red light and block those nasty EMFs!
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Yeah, it sounds good Like she prescribed um algae for
me.
Speaker 2 (00:05):
Well, I mean that and it actually I've been Taking it
.
I've been taking it.
It has helped, it has helped.
Speaker 1 (00:11):
So yeah, it's been weird.
I want to give her a shot, yeah.
Speaker 2 (00:16):
Yeah, so what's something crunchier than that
you've done lately?
Speaker 1 (00:27):
Oh, I, um, I mean, it's kind of hard to pick Like.
I feel like every day I do lotsof crunchy things.
I would probably say, though,with this weather being so
beautiful, I like to get out onmy pool deck.
I have, you saw, like my littlecowboy pool situation, yes,
(00:52):
situation, and, um, I take alittle psilocybin microdose and
do a hot yoga series that soundsamazing, it's incredible.
Speaker 2 (00:55):
It's like the best therapy ever is it like?
Do you do it in the morning orlike middle of the day or
evening?
Speaker 1 (00:59):
usually like middle of the day, late afternoon, and
I like for it to be like superhot.
So I'm getting like all thedetox.
You know, yeah, sweating goingon Instead of going to hot yoga.
Speaker 2 (01:14):
You can just be out in hot yoga.
Yeah, yeah, I've been trying toget it in walks between one and
two o'clock because I heardthat like it helps you with your
sleep cycle.
Okay, one and two o'clockbecause I heard that like it
helps you with your sleep cycleto cause it's like, yeah, get
out in the morning and then atthe like the highest point of
the day and then in the eveningso that your body like syncs
with how you're supposed to besleeping.
That makes sense.
(01:35):
I've been sleeping well.
Speaker 1 (01:36):
Yeah, I.
Well, when I, when I get outand do my my yoga, I definitely
sleep way better that night.
It totally noticeable.
Yeah, I.
The other thing I did that'ssuper crunchy and zen was I, and
this was like recently, I wasso proud of myself.
Like every once in a while I'llbe inspired to do some sort of
(01:58):
creative, like crafting artproject and I made a um, it's
like a little fairy garden, ohdisplay yeah for my ongoing
feather collection nice, it'spretty hippie.
It's got like little velvetmushrooms in it and and.
(02:22):
I'm just like constantlypicking up feathers on on the
property.
And they needed a place to live.
Speaker 2 (02:28):
Yeah, Well, on that note, welcome to my crunchy zen
era.
This is a weekly podcast filledwith a little fun, a little
humor and a whole lot ofcuriosity.
I'm your host, nicole Swisher,and today my guest is Dr Ashley
(02:53):
Dial Welcome, thank you.
A little bit about Ashley.
She's the owner of Antler andAsh, a wellness-centered retreat
and farm in Cullioca, tennessee.
She's a wellness andempowerment coach with a PhD in
depth psychology.
She works with clients to helpthem reclaim their sense of
purpose and belonging, and oftenincorporates the healing power
(03:15):
of horses into her coachingsessions.
Speaker 1 (03:18):
Yes.
Speaker 2 (03:19):
Did I get that about?
Speaker 1 (03:20):
right, perfect, great .
I couldn't have said it bettermyself.
Speaker 2 (03:24):
Some of that is stuff you said yourself on your
website sounds like you've doneyour research, okay, yeah, if
you could relive any memory,what would it be and why?
Speaker 1 (03:37):
ah, um, I think my first date with my husband Cole.
Oh yeah, Tell me about it.
Yeah, so we've been.
When was it?
It was, like I don't know, 10years ago, which is wild.
So I was living in Florida andI was living on my converted bus
(04:04):
that I called the Cowgirlcaravan.
I don't know if I've ever toldyou about this.
Speaker 2 (04:09):
No, I need to know so much more.
Speaker 1 (04:10):
Yeah, I lived on a bus for like a year, did you?
Speaker 2 (04:13):
convert it or did you buy it?
I had a lot of help.
Speaker 1 (04:16):
My dad like long story short.
My dad essentially got me thebus and I got permission to put
it out on the horse propertythat I was on in Florida, which
was like 100 acres out in thecountry, and so I put this bus
out there.
I had a lot of friends come andhelp me convert it and turning
(04:40):
it turn it into like a tiny homeRight, and turn it into like a
tiny home, right, cool.
So, anyway, I was living on mybus at the time, being about as
crunchy as you can get, and Coleand I met online and he was
going to come and pick me up andwe were going to go to dinner.
But he came and picked me upand I had some boarders who
(05:05):
owned a horse on the propertythat needed some help with their
horse, and so, instead of goingto dinner, cole and I go to
help with this horse situation.
And him, being from a horsefamily, actually knew his way
around a horse and knew what hewas doing, and so we end up like
(05:27):
and I'm like dressed to go todinner yeah, right and we end up
like doing horse trainingtogether and we had just met um,
and then that just turned intolike the best night of my life
and we just stayed on theproperty and paddled the little
paddle boat out on the lake andtotally fell in love yeah, I
(05:49):
feel like the moment he couldwork with horses yeah, you're
like found him.
Yeah, it's like this is gonnawork, yeah that's such a cool
first date it was an.
It was an amazing first date,yeah that's cool.
Speaker 2 (06:02):
All right, I've got my little grab bag of questions
oh gosh, my super random onesthat I don't remember what I put
into it.
So it makes it exciting for metoo.
What is a weird or obscuretalent you have, but hardly
anyone knows about it?
Speaker 1 (06:18):
oh gosh weird or obscure talent that hardly
anyone knows, I think the firstthing that comes to mind.
This is so ridiculous, but I'ma really good arm wrestler.
Speaker 2 (06:39):
Is there a technique or are you just really strong?
Speaker 1 (06:48):
I think I'm just overly confident and I've been
known to like have a coupledrinks and then like challenge a
full-grown man to an armwrestling competition.
That's amazing.
I haven't done it in a longtime.
But, um, yeah, that's withoutoverthinking it.
That's the first thing thatcomes to mind.
That's perfect, yeah.
Speaker 2 (07:09):
I'm pretty darn good at foosball, but I never have
the chance to whip that out.
Speaker 1 (07:13):
Yeah, I'm actually really good at that too.
I recently went on vacationwith my family and there was a
foosball table in the cabin thatwe were staying at and I
totally hustled my brother andsister.
Foosball table in the cabinthat we were staying at and I,
like, totally hustled my brotherand sister foosball.
Speaker 2 (07:30):
That's a good one too .
Yeah, we grew up with it, and Ifeel like I spent hours.
I don't know why it's likepretty, like, do you have a
strategy?
Do I have a strategy?
I mean, I don't know.
You kind of like lull them alittle bit, yeah, and then you
just whip it yeah, you gottalike spin it.
Speaker 1 (07:49):
Yeah, well, so I do it with.
Speaker 2 (07:50):
Like, our rules are, you can't spin oh, so you have
to like set the rules up frontbecause some people do that some
people don't.
So I've got like this wristmovement.
Okay so.
But if you do get the spininvolved, it's like okay, this
is a whole other.
Speaker 1 (08:05):
I would be lost without the spin Like that's
definitely.
Speaker 2 (08:08):
So that's why I set the rules.
No spinning, and then I willtake you.
Speaker 1 (08:14):
So you'd probably beat me then if there was no
spinning involved.
I think so, but you'd beat mein arm wrestling.
Speaker 2 (08:18):
So, yeah, that's fair .
Yeah, so I really want to hearabout more about your coaching
and I feel like full disclosureto our audience.
Like I did, your coachingprogram Loved it.
Would love to just hang withthe horses all the time yeah,
but can you tell me about yourcoaching practice?
Speaker 1 (08:39):
Yeah, so I mostly work with women.
When I first started, I workedwith just everyone and anyone,
but I think I've really found myniche working with women solely
, and some of the typical thingsthat I work with are women that
(09:01):
are going through major lifetransitions.
That I work with are women thatare like going through major
life transitions.
Um, and I do also um invite intrauma work when necessary.
Um, so when I work with clients, it's most of it is in person.
So you come out to my farm inCullioca, tennessee.
(09:23):
We have a beautiful 93 acresout there.
We have 10 horses on theproperty right now.
So just coming out for asession on the farm in and of
itself is such a beautifulcontainer to tend to yourself
and to whatever it is thatyou're, you know, trying to
(09:43):
process or work through.
So just being out out in naturelike I'm a big believer in
getting people outside, um, inengaging with my horses, they're
such a an amazing therapeuticpartner and that they are super
calming your nervous system.
(10:05):
Um, it's a very connectiveexperience and they can also be
really amazing mirrors forwhat's going on with my clients
internally, emotionally, and mysessions can look like really
different depending on whatyou're wanting to work on, how
(10:28):
you're showing up that day,what's going on with the horses,
like they always have their ownagenda.
So a lot of my coaching is veryintuitive and just sensing, like
what you're needing in thathour, you know, like what's're
needing in that hour you know,like what's coming up for you,
how can we best get somemovement through it, like find a
(10:51):
place to shift or find adifferent perspective for you?
And sometimes that looks likeworking with the horses,
sometimes it looks like taking awalk through the property,
sometimes I just sit and have atalk session with my clients.
So, yeah, I think that's justlike a little flavor of my
(11:14):
coaching.
Speaker 2 (11:14):
Yeah, yeah and I think my sessions we definitely
did some just grooming andtalking.
It's very relaxing.
Some riding, yeah, but not allthe time and I was a little
nervous to get back on a horsebecause, um, I I've alluded to
it a few times on the podcast,but I've never outright said
(11:36):
that I had a traumatic braininjury.
Yes, and most likely it wasoriginally from being bucked off
a horse, but then it came backbecause COVID attacked my brain
and so when I came to you I waslooking for I was calling it
(11:58):
horse therapy, yeah, whateveryou want to call it, but my
sister-in-law is going throughthe, um, the whole program to.
That's right.
Uh, do therapeutic work withhorses right um, and so she's
got three horses now, and sothat's what got me looking and
that's how I found you, and ittruly is like each time I would
(12:20):
come down to the farm on the wayback, it was almost like I was
so calm and relaxed that I hadto intentionally be like don't
fall asleep on the drive.
And keep that calm, Keep thatcalm especially driving back
into Nashville I wanted to seeyou is because of the nervous
(12:47):
system side of it is that I hadhealed significantly but the
doctors kept saying my body wasjust stressed and my nervous
system was out of whack and tobe around horses can calm that
all down, and that is exactlywhat I experienced a lot.
Speaker 1 (13:00):
Yeah, well, and I think you know what you're
speaking to, like yourexperiences is um like so much
of of what I, you know, try todo with every client is like
give you that embodiedexperience of what your baseline
can look like and can can feellike in your body.
(13:22):
Yeah, so that you know.
You know, you know when you'restarting, when those stress
levels are starting to rise, youknow that you're not at that
baseline anymore and then youcan consciously, you know, make
some other decisions, you know,grab some other resources, some
other tools that you've umdeveloped, developed for
(13:44):
yourself, and try to get back tothat, that baseline yeah, and
you?
Speaker 2 (13:50):
it can so quickly get out of whack that you don't
realize it until you're drawninto a space where your body
calms down, right of like eachtime I go home and I'm around my
family where my mom is justlike let me cook for you, let me
do whatever, and they're sogenerous and kind to me that.
(14:12):
I think I just relax in a waythat's hard to do when you are
self-sufficient on your own andare like I got to get the
groceries I need to work.
And I did read one of your blogposts about burnout and how it
like creeps up on you, yeah, andI'd be curious to hear more
about that if you're willing toshare oh my gosh.
Speaker 1 (14:34):
I mean, I feel like I'm still like learning so much
about my own burnout cycle and Istill get caught up in it.
But something I recentlyrealized for myself like I had
this idea that burnout onlyhappened if I was working too
(14:59):
much.
So I had this idea that, like,if I was, you know, seeing too
many clients, like trying to dotoo many retreats, too many
workshops, like literallyoverloading my schedule, like
that's how my burnout cycle washappening, and so the obvious
solution would be to not put somuch on my schedule, right?
(15:21):
And so I did that and I wasstill burning out and I was like
what is going on?
Like I'm hardly working and I'mstill finding myself in this
burnout cycle?
Um, so it's not as likeclear-cut and straightforward as
I think we would like for it tobe, so that we can like find a
(15:44):
solution.
Like you, you know, you thinkyour burnout is, is just like
your job, you know.
So if I find a different job orif I quit my job which
sometimes that is definitelynecessary um, you know, then I
just won't feel this way anymore.
I won't be burnt out anymoreand exhausted, um, but it's feel
(16:06):
this way anymore, I won't beburnt out anymore and exhausted,
um, but it's.
It's more linked to your traumaloop, like your trauma cycle
and, um, how that gets activated.
So it like, for me personally,it doesn't take too much for
that to be activated.
And then the next thing I know,even though I'm not, you know,
seeing too many clients orworking too much for that to be
activated.
And then the next thing I know,even though I'm not, you know,
(16:27):
seeing too many clients orworking too much.
I'm just like giving my energyout to like anything else that I
that I can find to keep myselfbusy with.
And then I'm just like in thatcycle all over again.
Speaker 2 (16:42):
Yeah, I mean, it can even be friends.
Speaker 1 (16:45):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (16:46):
Or like something totally benign.
Speaker 1 (16:48):
Yeah, yeah, or like doing stand up.
Speaker 2 (16:52):
I enjoyed it a lot and I did over 100 shows and
then I just started dreading theshows I would go to, even
though it's like, oh, it's sofun to watch people laugh and
I'm like I can't believe I'mmaking them laugh.
But then I started likedreading it and I was like I
can't stop, but I but I can, andso I, when I did it was this
(17:16):
relief, even though it wassomething that brought me so
much joy yeah it was the rightdecision to do it right.
Yeah, yeah, I mean.
Speaker 1 (17:26):
I'm just, yeah, I'm finding for myself like I need a
lot.
Uh, I need a lot more likespace and time to continue to
also like heal from years ofburnout yeah and that's the
other thing I think about.
Burnout is like we think thatlike as soon as we like stop
that cycle, we won't feel thatway anymore.
(17:47):
But if you think about likeyears and years of like all of
that stress and what that's doneto your body and to your psyche
and just to, like you know,dredging out those neural
pathways, it's a there's a longrecovery process involved yeah,
it's not like you would break abone and be like, right, oh, I
(18:10):
stopped doing that activity,it'll be fine the next day.
Speaker 2 (18:13):
Yeah, your body had like we internalize so much.
Yes, how did you have you readthe book burnout by emily
nagatsuki?
I have so, have I?
Yes, I like when you're sayinglike stress cycles.
I'm like these sound like words.
Speaker 1 (18:26):
Familiar words.
It's a good book.
Speaker 2 (18:29):
I highly recommend it .
Speaker 1 (18:30):
It is a good book, yeah.
Speaker 2 (18:31):
It's fascinating really.
I think the main thing is likewe get taking work, for example
of like going to work and it'slike as a lawyer, it's like
gotta do this and this and thisand this and you build up, and
traditionally or in the past itwould have been like there's a
lion run, you exert, you're done, but now we're not having that
(18:53):
like completing the stress cycleof right running.
I don't think I'm saying this?
Speaker 1 (18:58):
no, you're saying it.
Yeah, perfectly.
Um, yeah, you're not completingthe cycle.
There's no release.
Speaker 2 (19:04):
Yeah, like the threat is still looming because you
have to go back into work thenext day right, yeah, and some
of the small things that I thinka lot of people know, will work
out or something, or go for awalk or you know, have something
that like completes that yeah,so so something somatic, like
(19:25):
something embodied, yeah, yeahexactly so.
Depth psychology yes.
Can you tell me what that is?
Speaker 1 (19:34):
Like knowing this question is coming.
Speaker 2 (19:37):
I kind of dread it, oh no.
Speaker 1 (19:40):
I've been asked this question, of course, like a
million times, and I never knowwhat I'm going to say.
So I Googled it, I told you,you told me.
Speaker 2 (19:49):
I don't think I can repeat it.
Well, it's.
It's.
It's about like soul work, yes,and what we embody.
I'm slightly using words you'vealready used today and getting
to like the core of the issues.
Speaker 1 (20:04):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, perfectly said, sure.
And getting to like the core ofthe issues, yeah, yeah, yeah,
perfectly said, sure, I.
No, I think it's just like umlike, if I really have to boil
it down, I mean because youcould spend like hours talking
about what depth psychology isand the history of it, um, but I
think when you really boil itdown, it's essentially like
(20:25):
turning towards your unconsciouspsyche, so turning towards your
unconscious material, um seeingthat there's a lot of value in
your unconscious psyche and umdeveloping a relationship with
that part of yourself andallowing that to inform and
(20:49):
guide you.
I'm just going to like stopthere because I'll start to say
things.
Speaker 2 (20:57):
I listen to this podcaster, dr John Deloney, and
he often talks about trauma inchildhood and how things that
they're going through.
Now it's like that child likereacting and controlling and
having that same like fearfulresponse or something, and one
thing he recommends is to writethat child a letter telling them
(21:22):
like you're safe, you're doinga great job, I've got you is
that kind of yeah sure so that'slike you know what you're
speaking to.
Speaker 1 (21:33):
Is um specifically like inner child work, right,
which I think a lot of peopleare probably familiar with, um,
and that's probably a prettygood.
Yeah, that's a great example, Ithink, of how to understand
what depth psychology is,because your inner child is
mostly unconscious, right?
Like we're not walking aroundhaving a conversation with our
(21:55):
inner child every day triggersthat childhood trauma.
The inner child, thatunconscious part of you, that
unhealed childhood trauma,responds essentially, you know,
reacts, and that patterncontinues until you are able to
(22:19):
have a dialogue with thatunconscious part of yourself,
with that unconscious part ofyourself that needs some
reassurance, right, that needsto know that it's safe and that
that trauma is no longerhappening, right?
And what led you to depth um, Ithink, probably my relationship
(22:46):
with my dad.
Um, he, my dad, is like theultimate hippie of all hippies
and he was always veryinterested and involved in his
own dream life and that was verycurious to me.
(23:06):
And as I got older, you know,we would have conversations
about our dreams and heintroduced me to Carl Jung, who
is, you know, like the biggestinfluencer of depth psychology.
And I started reading Carl Jungprobably I read one of his
(23:32):
books, I think, when I was inhigh school, and like none of it
made any sense to me and it wasway over my head, but I knew
that there was something therethat was like very intriguing to
me.
So that's kind of like how, youknow, the ball started rolling
for me and then fast forward.
I got my undergrad in sociology, um, and then I tried to like
(23:57):
work in the real world and hatedit and I was like maybe I'll go
back to school, um, and youknow, in considering what I
might be interested in studying,I did a lot of, like you know,
looking around at differentgraduate schools and I found
Pacifica Graduate Institute,depth.
(24:18):
Psychology is not like a commonthing that people study, like a
common thing that people study.
So anyway, they're out inCalifornia, so I got my graduate
degree in depth psychology withthem.
It was amazing.
Like yeah, I don't, I wouldn't,I wouldn't do it any differently
.
Cool and how did horses comeinto play here?
(24:40):
Even a crazier?
That's a pretty crazy story.
So so I started going tograduate school for depth
psychology.
I thought I was just going, youknow, just for the PhD in
in-depth psychology, and I wasabout halfway through my second
(25:02):
year of studies and I hadnothing to do with horses.
Like I didn't grow up withhorses.
I wasn't currently involvedwith horses like at all.
I was horse obsessed when I wasa little girl.
But that's pretty common, right?
Oh, so common.
My niece, crazy.
Speaker 2 (25:20):
Horse crazy.
Speaker 1 (25:21):
Yeah, so that was me when I was a little girl, but
nothing to do with my adult life.
And so halfway through mysecond year of studies I just
had this like drop of horsedreams, and it just started one
night and it was like everysingle night I was having these
super intense, super vividdreams about horses, and it was
(25:45):
just relentless and it went onfor several months like
literally every single night ohmy gosh and I was like this is
wild, you know like what isgoing on.
And finally I was like, okay,and I was like this is wild, you
know, like what is going on.
And finally I was like, okay,and I was busy, like you know,
doing school and life andworking, but these dreams just
(26:05):
wouldn't shut up or leave mealone.
So I was like, okay, I need toengage with this in some other
way.
It's obviously calling for myattention.
And so I went and found thisbarn where this woman let me,
you know, muck the stalls inexchange for teaching me about
her horses.
And from there you knoweverything just like expanded
(26:28):
and exploded and all of mystudies in depth psychology
started to revolve around theseexperiences that I was now
having with real horses in mywaking life and what was still
happening in my dream life.
So all of my doctoral researchwas about the you know benefits
of the horse-human relationshipfrom a depth psychological
(26:51):
perspective.
Speaker 2 (26:54):
I mean there's a lot of science and research yes,
about horses and how they canhelp us.
Can you tell me more about that?
I, to the extent you canremember, yeah, like I'm more in
the experiential side of things.
Speaker 1 (27:09):
I kind of like all of that.
Um, you know, all of of thescience and all of the studies
that are coming out arefascinating.
But I think when you live withhorses and you do the type of
work that I do with clients andhorses and you're seeing it
happening, you know, in themoment you see these studies and
(27:32):
you're like, well, of course,you know, like we already knew
this.
Yeah, it's great to have youknow the statistics and the
studies and stuff to back it up,um, but also this is something
that's like ancient you know,one thing I I find very
interesting is how they can feelyour energy, and I first kind
(27:57):
of talked to my sister-in-law,katie who will probably be a
recurring theme on this, hey.
Katie.
Speaker 2 (28:05):
But she shared with me that her instructor had had
her go into the pasture with thehorses and they just kind of
ignored her and then she had tocome out and then told her to
breathe like through her nose,like counting, and then step in
and then all the horses likecame up to her right and they
(28:27):
can feel that.
so whenever I approach horseswhich I actually do on a regular
basis, which may be weird, butI do um I do breathing exercises
, like what we did um during oneof my coaching sessions most of
them yeah, and it isinteresting to see how they
respond to me and I've been ingroups of people where I'm doing
(28:49):
that and like the peoplecommented, like all the horses,
like you and I'm like, well it's, they're sensing what I'm doing
and I'm not telling you what.
Speaker 1 (28:57):
I'm doing yeah, totally fascinating.
Yeah, so like such a subtleenergy level that they're
participating in with you yeah,yeah, and the the way that they
feel us like.
Speaker 2 (29:13):
If you're anxious, if you're scared, um, they start
to respond in kind or get alittle jumpy too, right, yeah,
and that's why they're suchgreat therapeutic partners.
Speaker 1 (29:26):
Um, because if you're trying to get this, you know
1200 pound animal to cooperatewith you um, and you're super
anxious, they're going torespond in kind and not be so
cooperative.
So then you have to take apause and consider okay, what do
I need to do, like, how do Ineed to shift my energy in order
(29:48):
to gain cooperation here?
Speaker 2 (29:51):
Yeah, and one thing that comes to mind is when we
were riding I don't rememberwhich horse it was, but we were
riding and we were talking abouta difficult situation.
Speaker 1 (30:02):
I was going through with a friend and I felt the
horse tensing under me and thenI realized I was tensing, and so
we took a moment and everythingjust calmed and we kept going,
and it's just so fascinating howquickly they start to respond
yeah, um, one of the recentstudies that I came across was
(30:25):
um how horses like co-regulatetheir heartbeats in a herd and
um and I think they've knownthis for a long time Like when
it comes to horse and rider,once the rider's heartbeat
starts to accelerate, theirhorse's heartbeat starts to
accelerate immediately.
(30:45):
That's crazy.
Speaker 2 (30:46):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (30:47):
And so, um, yeah, that's just you know, like
scientific proof of what youknow, like you've experienced in
, the difference betweenapproaching a horse not being
aware of your breath versusapproaching like being more in
your body and like intentionallytrying to calm your system the
(31:11):
other experience I reallyenjoyed was with Gator.
Speaker 2 (31:15):
Yeah, so helping him gain confidence, because he
wasn't confident to leave hisherd yeah so you told me he
wasn't rideable because he wouldget too scared, and so you had
me encourage him to get furtherand further away from the herd,
and I'm just curious to explorethat again, of like, why did
(31:39):
helping him build confidencehelp me?
Speaker 1 (31:42):
too, and why was there?
Speaker 2 (31:44):
that connection between us.
Speaker 1 (31:46):
I well, I mean just to paint the the picture for
anyone listening.
Also, gator is a massive horsehe's, I love it.
He's this huge black horse.
I mean, his neck is like thisthick, yeah, but he's so sweet.
And he is a very gentle soul,but you are not going to get him
(32:07):
to cooperate with you unless hewants to, because he's also
figured out that he is bigenough.
You know, if he gets tooanxious anxious he'll just tear
away from you and run back tothe herd.
So you have to like reallyground into yourself and really
(32:29):
make an effort to connect withhim like every step of the way.
You're like checking intogether and he's doing the same
with you, right, like he'schecking in with you and asking
like is she confident?
Like does she know what she'sdoing here?
Because if I sense that she'snot, like I'm out of here.
So doing that exercise reallygives you the embodied
(32:57):
experience of what it feels liketo lead this massive beast
outside of his comfort zone,which requires you to like fully
embody as much confidence asyou can muster.
Right you can muster right andwhat a helpful like experience
(33:21):
to have.
Because we can.
We can talk about like okay,I'm going to go out through my
this week and like I'm going tobe more confident in this
situation, you know, at work orthis relationship, or I'm going
to speak up for myself, but whenyou're actually participating
in that and using your body andyour breath, participating in
that and using your body andyour breath, and you're having
to do it with another being, youknow, you're like really
(33:43):
carving out that, that newneural pathway for yourself,
instead of just talking aboutlike trying to be more confident
yeah, does that make sense?
Speaker 2 (33:51):
yeah, that does, and so who was your first horse?
Speaker 1 (33:56):
well, unfortunately you didn't get to meet him.
He, he passed um two, two-ishyears ago now.
Saltos was his name, cute.
His full name was salto de fe,which means leap of faith, and
he was, uh, andalusian pasifinocross.
He was gorgeous.
(34:17):
He was what you, um people calltheir heart horse.
Like he was my soul.
He was the inspiration for likeeverything that I've done in my
work.
Um, he just meant everything tome.
He was gorgeous, he was.
He was uh white, with like amillion they call it flea bit
(34:38):
like a million tiny little blackspots all over him um, and when
he moved he just looked like hewas like in a parade,
everywhere he was going, uh, buthe was.
He was great with kids, like aslong as I had him on a lunge
line or contained, but he lovedto run like he loved to haul,
(35:01):
and I think my husband got onhim like a couple times and was
like I'm good, he was like afreight train.
But, um, he still comes tovisit me sometimes in my dreams
and I miss him dearly.
Speaker 2 (35:16):
It's, it's hard to lose an animal.
They're, they're just a part ofyou and yeah, yeah, I mean.
Speaker 1 (35:24):
I literally feel like a piece of my soul left when,
when he did.
Speaker 2 (35:29):
Yeah, and so with your herd?
Um, this is actually from Katie, my sister.
Um, do you have specifictraining techniques with your
horses as healers?
Speaker 1 (35:43):
Training techniques with them as far as like getting
them, training them to be liketherapy horses?
Um, oh yeah, that's a goodquestion.
Um, first and foremost, likethey do have to be super safe
and trustworthy to be around.
Um, so they have to be umtraining techniques, though,
(36:08):
specifically, I mean, I I takedefinitely like a natural
horsemanship approach, so I'mnever um trying to force
cooperation from them.
Um, I like to do a lot of likesuper basic groundwork stuff,
like lunging with them, justleading with them, getting them
(36:30):
to respect my space.
Um, I think, probably mostimportantly, like in a therapy
session, they still need tounderstand that the relationship
between them and me is that I'mthe leader, like I am the head
mayor Anytime I step into thepasture with them or the barn or
(36:52):
a therapy session, and that'swhat keeps the container safe
and that just looks like.
As far as training goes, likeevery interaction that I have
with them is like me embodyingthat head mare, like leadership
role, and it's, I mean, training, nothing crazy complicated,
(37:14):
yeah, yeah and so how would youdescribe like coaching versus
therapy?
Speaker 2 (37:22):
yeah, you're not a therapist, no, even though I
call you a therapist.
Yeah, I mean, it feels like it,but sure.
Speaker 1 (37:29):
I mean, it is kind of like a, a mixture yeah right.
But I think, like over the yearsand I, you know, I think I've
been doing this for like 14 plusyears now I have come to more
of a coaching approach, because,you know, clients come because
they want change.
(37:50):
They want to see real change intheir life and I want to help
them get there change in theirlife and I want to help them get
there.
So coaching is more about um,you know, like figuring out what
that looks like, like what isyour ideal?
You know, where do you want tobe, how do you want to feel,
(38:13):
what do you want to be doing,who do you want to be with three
months, six months, a year fromnow.
And then let's break it downand like actually strategize and
like start to make some reallife changes that are really
small and incremental, but likebuild up and give you serious
momentum to actually get to thisnew place that you want to be,
(38:35):
versus therapeutic work, whichis still involved in what I do,
but like I am not going to spendan hour with you just listening
to you and being like well,what does that feel like?
And that sucks, and I'll seeyou next week.
Speaker 2 (38:53):
Like hopefully it gets better.
Speaker 1 (38:57):
Yeah, you know, I really want to like strategize
with you about how we get to thenext step, the next phase.
Speaker 2 (39:06):
Yeah, and I mean, that is definitely why I was
interested.
Because, I have a therapistI've been seeing for a few years
.
I trust her and I I think it'sgood for everyone to have a
therapist whether you'reactually actively going or you
know if something happens, Idon't have to do that work again
of finding someone I trustTotally.
Speaker 1 (39:25):
That can be very hard .
Speaker 2 (39:27):
But I was at a point where I was like I really need
somebody who's going to beintentionally encouraging me and
challenging me and having someaccountability which I don't
find so much in therapy Right, Ifeel like that's a little bit
of a different thing.
So it wasn't like I was comingin and you're like you should do
(39:51):
this and whatever.
It was more like bringing outmy ideas and almost
collaboratively, and thenrevisiting it the next time and
checking it, following up.
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (40:03):
Yeah, I think that.
Yeah, thank you for saying that.
The accountability pieces ishuge, right, yeah, yeah, and I
mean yes, I also have my owntherapist.
I love her, she's amazing, it'ssuper helpful.
Speaker 2 (40:21):
But yeah, coaching is just kind of a different
approach, and so how long didyou say you've been doing
coaching?
Like 14 years.
Speaker 1 (40:27):
Yeah, like 14-ish years, almost 15.
Speaker 2 (40:30):
Has it always taken this form or has your business
evolved?
Speaker 1 (40:34):
It's definitely evolved Like I have, in the last
several years, taken a moreexplicit coaching approach, um,
just after years of likefiguring out what's most helpful
for people.
Um yeah, my like I said when Istarted like I worked with like
(40:59):
anyone and everyone, like alldifferent issues.
So my practice has definitely,my work has definitely evolved,
and now I'm also getting moreinto we're building a.
So we're building a cabin outon our property Awesome.
I don't know if I told you thatI'm calling it the bunk house,
so it's got like eight bunks init and I'm starting to get into
(41:24):
doing more, just like really funstuff, like camp outs for women
.
That's cool, yeah.
So, like one of the last ones Idid well, I do a cowgirl camp
out where you, you come out andwe like have a trail ride and we
(41:44):
have like a steak dinner aroundthe campfire and we go on like
a night hike and then in themornings maybe we go for another
ride.
We go to the barn feed thehorses have some breakfast hang
out at the campfire.
Speaker 2 (41:58):
Just like a fun time yeah.
Speaker 1 (42:00):
Which is therapeutic?
In itself, just getting peopleoutside and just being with the
horses and meeting other people.
Speaker 2 (42:08):
Yeah.
Yeah, I'm glad you brought thatup, because I would have
forgotten to say something aboutthis.
But I noticed a lot of that.
You use the word playful andfun a lot on your website and I
was just I don't know.
I was just curious where thatwas coming from, Because I mean
I think being playful and havingfun in your adult years is
(42:28):
super important and often lost.
Speaker 1 (42:31):
Totally yeah.
I just think we shouldn't takeourselves so seriously.
Speaker 2 (42:39):
Done.
Speaker 1 (42:41):
It's definitely something like I am guilty of
getting trapped in.
It's like taking things tooseriously, getting caught in
your head, right.
So if you can like find morecreative, playful fun outlets
for yourself, like the healingkind of, just happens naturally.
Speaker 2 (43:00):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (43:00):
Without so much hard work, like it doesn't have to be
so serious.
Speaker 2 (43:05):
It doesn't have to be so serious, it doesn't have to
be so hard yeah, I find I Idon't feel like I laugh as much
as I like I was laughing so hardabout something the other day
and I I don't remember what itwas, but it just felt like this
huge release and I was like whydon't I laugh more?
Yeah, do I not find thingsfunny?
Speaker 1 (43:27):
like I don't know.
I thought I did funny people inmy life anyway, yeah, yeah,
it's definitely not me yeah,like just you know, like I'll
find myself sitting down towatch something on tv and I'm
like I need a good laugh.
Like I haven't really had agood laugh in a while, and so
finding something to make melaugh is like yeah one of the
(43:49):
most therapeutic things you cando for yourself is just to have
a good laugh.
Speaker 2 (43:53):
Yeah, and you have done a retreat in the past with
Roxanne.
I think the Sisters Beloved.
Speaker 1 (44:03):
I have done some work with Roxanne.
Um the retreats.
I've worked with severaldifferent women Okay.
Um, the last retreat that I didon my property um was with a
good friend of mine who was alsoa coach.
Um, christie shots and she's uhlives in Florida, um, and so
I'm hoping to get those back upand running, okay, when the
(44:25):
cabin is done and I cancoordinate with her and we do
these like three night into liketherapeutically intensive
retreats.
Speaker 2 (44:36):
Um, that's essentially like five years
worth of therapy packed into aweekend okay yeah, so those are
very focused um, and there's a,there's a lot involved in those
and and part of that is likefemale friendships right and
(44:57):
totally how important thosereally are for women.
I think a lot of times womenget a bad rap for having these
very toxic female friendships,when a very healthy I mean.
I think it's essential to whowe are and to build community
and to be healthy and have fun.
Speaker 1 (45:20):
Yeah, yeah, that's.
That's a huge element of theretreats, like the camp, just
the fun little camp outs that Ido.
The women that come always haveso much anxiety about being
around other women.
Yeah, Like for an extendedperiod of time and doing deep.
(45:41):
You know work and just how muchvulnerability is involved in
that.
But inevitably what happens is,you know, when we all come
together and people start tokind of let their guards down,
it's just like the it's the mostpowerful medicine that they
didn't know that they needed tohave that female connection.
(46:06):
Yeah, it's beautiful.
Speaker 2 (46:08):
Yeah, and on that I'm going to bring up a new segment
that we might make recurring.
We'll see.
I'm calling it something likewomen killing it.
So my good friend, summerHarkup she's a producer on this
show and she also helps meproduce Cheaper Than Therapy.
Okay, and so I wanted to sharesomething really cool that
(46:31):
happened to her.
She is a defense lawyer atWickersmith in Nashville and
they posted about this on theirLinkedIn.
She recently obtained a defenseverdict in a construction case
in which she was defending ageneral contractor against a
homeowner.
The allegations involved breachof contract, negligent
construction, violations of theTennessee Consumer Protection
(46:53):
Act and of the TennesseeContractors Licensing Act.
She got a partial summaryjudgment and a directed verdict
on others, meaning they went herway by the judge, and then,
after three days of trial, thejury returned a unanimous
defense verdict for theremaining claims.
So her um, her client, won oneverything, and this was in
(47:16):
Memphis, which is a notoriouslydifficult venue in these cases.
So I wanted to give a shout outto Summer and how amazing that
is and she was working so hardand so, yeah, awesome, we'll
just say she's amazing.
Speaker 1 (47:32):
Oh, way to go Summer.
Yeah, Very cool.
Speaker 2 (47:34):
So what are you obsessing over lately?
Speaker 1 (47:38):
Oh gosh what am I obsessing over lately?
Um a lot of things I contend tobe somewhat obsessive uh, me
too.
Speaker 2 (47:49):
That's why I'm really asking this.
Speaker 1 (47:51):
Okay, yeah, oh my gosh, there's so many things um,
I think, like you know, beingreal, uh, with that question, I
think I am very obsessed rightnow with um trying to be a mom
yeah yeah yeah, because you're,do you mind?
(48:13):
no.
I'm going through IVF yeah yeah, I'm going through IVF, have
been for a good while now.
Um, my husband and I have beentrying to build a family and,
you know, get pregnant forseveral years.
It's been a really toughjourney and I think you know if
you're familiar, you've been inthis journey.
On any level.
It's easy to obsess over.
(48:36):
Yeah, so anything likefertility, ivf related, I'm all
over it.
Speaker 2 (48:44):
I've heard.
It's very challenging and justall consuming because you're
having to monitor everything andyou're learning things about
your body you never knew butmaybe you should have learned in
high school or somethingTotally yeah, yeah.
Thanks for sharing that I feellike I believe a lot more women
are going through that than Ithink it's becoming more common
(49:08):
to talk about it, right, um, butI appreciate you sharing that
because I feel like it can giveencouragement to other women.
Speaker 1 (49:15):
Yeah, it's not something that's, um, talked
about a lot.
I think there's some sort oflike taboo around it, like it's
a personal thing you should keepto yourself, um, but I think if
I came on your podcast anddidn't mention that that was a
massive part of my life rightnow, yeah, it would be a bit
disingenuous.
Speaker 2 (49:33):
So, yeah, well, I at least, and probably others, will
be praying for you and yourthank you the family.
There's a uh.
Have you ever heard of MariLlewellyn?
No, I don't think so.
Um, I guess she I don't knowwhat I would call her she's
definitely got some influence.
Speaker 1 (49:51):
I don't want to say influencer, because she does
more than that.
Speaker 2 (49:55):
Um, I listened to her podcast, the pursuit of
wellness, and in the last six toseven months she has stopped
really interviewing peoplebecause she's been going through
IVF and she's shared herjourney and I've learned a lot.
I think it was very helpful to.
That's how I know anythingabout it and it's it's really
(50:16):
interesting to hear howall-consuming and how difficult
yeah, it really is, I will lookher up.
So definitely look her up.
Speaker 1 (50:29):
I've been obsessing over my continuous glucose
monitor?
How often are you checking?
Is it on your phone?
Speaker 2 (50:34):
It's on my phone.
My glucose was very low so Igot this and it's been a little
too fascinating.
But what's really interestingis I was dropping so much that I
almost thought I should go tothe ER, oh my gosh.
And then I did a 24-hour fast,which I was hesitant about
(50:54):
because I was like well, ifyou're dropping, are you gonna
pass out?
But after the 24-hour fastwhich was totally fine it's
changed.
Like I, my glucose is notdropping as often.
So you think that gave you kindof like a reset?
I think so.
Cause 24 hours is about the fastlength you need for your gut to
(51:14):
rebuild and heal.
Speaker 1 (51:16):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (51:16):
And so I had this theory that cause I'm glucose
intolerant, like all thesethings, that I had damaged my
gut and I wasn't absorbingnutrients.
So yeah, I am gonna go see adoctor.
It's just that part of theissue is I couldn't get in until
like September.
Oh my gosh.
Speaker 1 (51:33):
So it's like, anyway, nashville doctors so yeah, how
often are you like looking atthis on your phone?
Speaker 2 (51:39):
I mean more than once an hour.
Speaker 1 (51:42):
Well, that's why, like I, I like tell people, like
I was telling you about the umaura ring, yeah, like I tell
other people to get it, but Iknow if I got it it I would
probably get too obsessed yeah,I think that this I will not be
having this in when I go toscotland, because I'm like we
(52:02):
don't need to be like obsessed,you'll survive yeah and I think
part of it was like every timeit would drop below 70 it would
just like beep, even if yourphone's on silent and so I was
always watching because I waslike, oh, I don't want it to go
beeping.
Speaker 2 (52:16):
And it beeped in the middle of a client meeting.
I was like I'm so sorry, it'smy glucose and the client's like
what?
Speaker 1 (52:25):
Well, I thought about getting one of those too, just
to like pay attention to whatmakes it spike you know, like in
your diet.
Speaker 2 (52:34):
Yeah, it's been interesting for that.
Speaker 1 (52:35):
Yeah, for sure.
Speaker 2 (52:37):
Yeah, let's see.
Do you have any recommendationsfor our listeners?
Speaker 1 (52:42):
Oh, that's a pretty general question.
Any recommendations, Um, Ithink.
Well, speaking of diet, likeanytime I'm working with a
client, like I go to, like superfoundational things, you know,
and and talk about like exercise, diet, sleep.
(53:02):
So like exercise, diet, sleep.
So like just go back to yourbasics.
Yeah, like I, it's somethingI'm also obsessing over right
now is my own sleep.
It's like my number one priority.
So like clean up your sleephygiene right um clean up your
diet and get some movement inyour life.
(53:23):
It's like the most basic adviceever, but it can totally change
your world.
Speaker 2 (53:29):
I feel like often we try to hack things so much when
it's like that's good, but areyou doing these things first,
Right?
Speaker 1 (53:37):
Yeah, we want a shortcut.
Speaker 2 (53:39):
And it doesn't even have to be a massive shift, but
little baby steps towards,towards something.
Yeah, totally yeah.
My recommendation this week isa book series that I really like
um I was thinking about thisbecause I'm like, I've
recommended non-fiction, solet's go with fiction.
It's called the lunar chronicleseries by marissa meyer and
(54:00):
they're retellings of like fairytale, like Cinderella, oh cool.
And what am I thinking of?
Rapunzel and stuff like that,oh yeah, and it's like five
books, four or five books, butthey're really well written,
okay, and I always love a goodretelling, but these are great.
I'm still I know that somebodybought like the movie rights and
(54:24):
so I'm always just like waiting.
Speaker 1 (54:26):
Yeah, is it coming out?
Speaker 2 (54:27):
But they're very.
They're a fun read and verywell written Awesome.
Highly recommend them.
I love a good bookrecommendation, yeah.
So what are you looking forwardto this week?
Speaker 1 (54:39):
What am I looking forward to this week?
I'm looking forward to gettingour cabin wrapped up.
Are you that close?
It's very close.
Cool, it's so close.
I'm hoping it'll be ready forthe fall and it will be open.
I'll have it listed on Airbnb.
Speaker 2 (54:58):
Nice.
Speaker 1 (54:58):
So you can come and stay and, like, hike the
property, hang out with thehorses.
So I'm not just, it's not justfor my campouts and retreats.
You can just come and stay also.
So yeah, I'm looking forward togetting that done this week.
Speaker 2 (55:14):
So I know your property, I know other people
don't.
Is it going to be like couldthe horses just like come up to
the cabin?
Speaker 1 (55:21):
Yes.
Speaker 2 (55:21):
Oh, that's so cool yeah.
Speaker 1 (55:23):
So, as you know and yeah, people listening don't
know um our 10 horse horses areheard is free roaming on the
entire 93 acres, which includesthe cabin site.
Speaker 2 (55:36):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (55:37):
So, yeah, you can like be hanging out on the porch
, on the cabin, and like, herecomes the horses to graze in the
we call it the twin pastures iswhere it is.
So, yeah, it's a pretty magicallittle spot okay good to know.
Yeah, I'm like, I'm thinkingI'll be looking on Airbnb and if
they're not there, you justlike go for a short little hike
(55:59):
and, you know, find them yeah,they'll show up, they'll find.
Speaker 2 (56:03):
Yeah, they do.
I'm looking forward to liketomorrow just having like a very
quiet morning.
I don't have anything untillike one o'clock and I'm just
like this is, I love those daysCan you actually sleep in?
Yeah, what's weird is that Idon't sleep in very much on the
(56:23):
weekends like or if I'm workingfrom home, I just very naturally
wake up around 6 30 when I haveto go to the office you're like
dead asleep, yeah, and I don'tknow if that's like because of
the commute or just like therush of like okay, we got to get
up, we got to go.
But it's just so funny to me.
I'm like why can I not wake up?
(56:44):
It's like the one time youreally feel like you could sleep
forever, yeah yeah, yeah, it'san ongoing problem.
Um so, ashley, where is thebest place for people to find
you?
Speaker 1 (56:58):
um on my website currently um I'm.
I've been kind of taking asocial media break, so if you
just go to antlerandashcom andfill out my little contact form,
you show up in my email and Irespond to you as a real person
and start a conversation.
Speaker 2 (57:17):
Thank you so much for being here.
This was great.
This was really great.
Thank you, Um, and thank youguys for listening.
Um, please subscribe to myYouTube channel and follow me
wherever you listen to yourpodcast.
We'll see you next week.
The end.
Thanks for listening to mycrunchy zen era.
Please subscribe and leave areview wherever you listen to
(57:37):
your podcasts.
This podcast is produced by me,Nicole Swisher, and my good
friends Summer Harkup and Liz CGolder.
Editing is by Drew HarrisonMedia and recording is done by
Lagos Creative in Nashville,Tennessee.
Thanks for hanging out.
We'll be back next week.
Yeah, it sounds good Like she prescribed um algae for
me.
Speaker 2 (00:05):
Well, I mean that and it actually I've been Taking it
.
I've been taking it.
It has helped, it has helped.
Speaker 1 (00:11):
So yeah, it's been weird.
I want to give her a shot, yeah.
Speaker 2 (00:16):
Yeah, so what's something crunchier than that
you've done lately?
Speaker 1 (00:27):
Oh, I, um, I mean, it's kind of hard to pick Like.
I feel like every day I do lotsof crunchy things.
I would probably say, though,with this weather being so
beautiful, I like to get out onmy pool deck.
I have, you saw, like my littlecowboy pool situation, yes,
(00:52):
situation, and, um, I take alittle psilocybin microdose and
do a hot yoga series that soundsamazing, it's incredible.
Speaker 2 (00:55):
It's like the best therapy ever is it like?
Do you do it in the morning orlike middle of the day or
evening?
Speaker 1 (00:59):
usually like middle of the day, late afternoon, and
I like for it to be like superhot.
So I'm getting like all thedetox.
You know, yeah, sweating goingon Instead of going to hot yoga.
Speaker 2 (01:14):
You can just be out in hot yoga.
Yeah, yeah, I've been trying toget it in walks between one and
two o'clock because I heardthat like it helps you with your
sleep cycle.
Okay, one and two o'clockbecause I heard that like it
helps you with your sleep cycleto cause it's like, yeah, get
out in the morning and then atthe like the highest point of
the day and then in the eveningso that your body like syncs
with how you're supposed to besleeping.
That makes sense.
(01:35):
I've been sleeping well.
Speaker 1 (01:36):
Yeah, I.
Well, when I, when I get outand do my my yoga, I definitely
sleep way better that night.
It totally noticeable.
Yeah, I.
The other thing I did that'ssuper crunchy and zen was I, and
this was like recently, I wasso proud of myself.
Like every once in a while I'llbe inspired to do some sort of
(01:58):
creative, like crafting artproject and I made a um, it's
like a little fairy garden, ohdisplay yeah for my ongoing
feather collection nice, it'spretty hippie.
It's got like little velvetmushrooms in it and and.
(02:22):
I'm just like constantlypicking up feathers on on the
property.
And they needed a place to live.
Speaker 2 (02:28):
Yeah, Well, on that note, welcome to my crunchy zen
era.
This is a weekly podcast filledwith a little fun, a little
humor and a whole lot ofcuriosity.
I'm your host, nicole Swisher,and today my guest is Dr Ashley
(02:53):
Dial Welcome, thank you.
A little bit about Ashley.
She's the owner of Antler andAsh, a wellness-centered retreat
and farm in Cullioca, tennessee.
She's a wellness andempowerment coach with a PhD in
depth psychology.
She works with clients to helpthem reclaim their sense of
purpose and belonging, and oftenincorporates the healing power
(03:15):
of horses into her coachingsessions.
Speaker 1 (03:18):
Yes.
Speaker 2 (03:19):
Did I get that about?
Speaker 1 (03:20):
right, perfect, great .
I couldn't have said it bettermyself.
Speaker 2 (03:24):
Some of that is stuff you said yourself on your
website sounds like you've doneyour research, okay, yeah, if
you could relive any memory,what would it be and why?
Speaker 1 (03:37):
ah, um, I think my first date with my husband Cole.
Oh yeah, Tell me about it.
Yeah, so we've been.
When was it?
It was, like I don't know, 10years ago, which is wild.
So I was living in Florida andI was living on my converted bus
(04:04):
that I called the Cowgirlcaravan.
I don't know if I've ever toldyou about this.
Speaker 2 (04:09):
No, I need to know so much more.
Speaker 1 (04:10):
Yeah, I lived on a bus for like a year, did you?
Speaker 2 (04:13):
convert it or did you buy it?
I had a lot of help.
Speaker 1 (04:16):
My dad like long story short.
My dad essentially got me thebus and I got permission to put
it out on the horse propertythat I was on in Florida, which
was like 100 acres out in thecountry, and so I put this bus
out there.
I had a lot of friends come andhelp me convert it and turning
(04:40):
it turn it into like a tiny homeRight, and turn it into like a
tiny home, right, cool.
So, anyway, I was living on mybus at the time, being about as
crunchy as you can get, and Coleand I met online and he was
going to come and pick me up andwe were going to go to dinner.
But he came and picked me upand I had some boarders who
(05:05):
owned a horse on the propertythat needed some help with their
horse, and so, instead of goingto dinner, cole and I go to
help with this horse situation.
And him, being from a horsefamily, actually knew his way
around a horse and knew what hewas doing, and so we end up like
(05:27):
and I'm like dressed to go todinner yeah, right and we end up
like doing horse trainingtogether and we had just met um,
and then that just turned intolike the best night of my life
and we just stayed on theproperty and paddled the little
paddle boat out on the lake andtotally fell in love yeah, I
(05:49):
feel like the moment he couldwork with horses yeah, you're
like found him.
Yeah, it's like this is gonnawork, yeah that's such a cool
first date it was an.
It was an amazing first date,yeah that's cool.
Speaker 2 (06:02):
All right, I've got my little grab bag of questions
oh gosh, my super random onesthat I don't remember what I put
into it.
So it makes it exciting for metoo.
What is a weird or obscuretalent you have, but hardly
anyone knows about it?
Speaker 1 (06:18):
oh gosh weird or obscure talent that hardly
anyone knows, I think the firstthing that comes to mind.
This is so ridiculous, but I'ma really good arm wrestler.
Speaker 2 (06:39):
Is there a technique or are you just really strong?
Speaker 1 (06:48):
I think I'm just overly confident and I've been
known to like have a coupledrinks and then like challenge a
full-grown man to an armwrestling competition.
That's amazing.
I haven't done it in a longtime.
But, um, yeah, that's withoutoverthinking it.
That's the first thing thatcomes to mind.
That's perfect, yeah.
Speaker 2 (07:09):
I'm pretty darn good at foosball, but I never have
the chance to whip that out.
Speaker 1 (07:13):
Yeah, I'm actually really good at that too.
I recently went on vacationwith my family and there was a
foosball table in the cabin thatwe were staying at and I
totally hustled my brother andsister.
Foosball table in the cabinthat we were staying at and I,
like, totally hustled my brotherand sister foosball.
Speaker 2 (07:30):
That's a good one too .
Yeah, we grew up with it, and Ifeel like I spent hours.
I don't know why it's likepretty, like, do you have a
strategy?
Do I have a strategy?
I mean, I don't know.
You kind of like lull them alittle bit, yeah, and then you
just whip it yeah, you gottalike spin it.
Speaker 1 (07:49):
Yeah, well, so I do it with.
Speaker 2 (07:50):
Like, our rules are, you can't spin oh, so you have
to like set the rules up frontbecause some people do that some
people don't.
So I've got like this wristmovement.
Okay so.
But if you do get the spininvolved, it's like okay, this
is a whole other.
Speaker 1 (08:05):
I would be lost without the spin Like that's
definitely.
Speaker 2 (08:08):
So that's why I set the rules.
No spinning, and then I willtake you.
Speaker 1 (08:14):
So you'd probably beat me then if there was no
spinning involved.
I think so, but you'd beat mein arm wrestling.
Speaker 2 (08:18):
So, yeah, that's fair .
Yeah, so I really want to hearabout more about your coaching
and I feel like full disclosureto our audience.
Like I did, your coachingprogram Loved it.
Would love to just hang withthe horses all the time yeah,
but can you tell me about yourcoaching practice?
Speaker 1 (08:39):
Yeah, so I mostly work with women.
When I first started, I workedwith just everyone and anyone,
but I think I've really found myniche working with women solely
, and some of the typical thingsthat I work with are women that
(09:01):
are going through major lifetransitions.
That I work with are women thatare like going through major
life transitions.
Um, and I do also um invite intrauma work when necessary.
Um, so when I work with clients, it's most of it is in person.
So you come out to my farm inCullioca, tennessee.
(09:23):
We have a beautiful 93 acresout there.
We have 10 horses on theproperty right now.
So just coming out for asession on the farm in and of
itself is such a beautifulcontainer to tend to yourself
and to whatever it is thatyou're, you know, trying to
(09:43):
process or work through.
So just being out out in naturelike I'm a big believer in
getting people outside, um, inengaging with my horses, they're
such a an amazing therapeuticpartner and that they are super
calming your nervous system.
(10:05):
Um, it's a very connectiveexperience and they can also be
really amazing mirrors forwhat's going on with my clients
internally, emotionally, and mysessions can look like really
different depending on whatyou're wanting to work on, how
(10:28):
you're showing up that day,what's going on with the horses,
like they always have their ownagenda.
So a lot of my coaching is veryintuitive and just sensing, like
what you're needing in thathour, you know, like what's're
needing in that hour you know,like what's coming up for you,
how can we best get somemovement through it, like find a
(10:51):
place to shift or find adifferent perspective for you?
And sometimes that looks likeworking with the horses,
sometimes it looks like taking awalk through the property,
sometimes I just sit and have atalk session with my clients.
So, yeah, I think that's justlike a little flavor of my
(11:14):
coaching.
Speaker 2 (11:14):
Yeah, yeah and I think my sessions we definitely
did some just grooming andtalking.
It's very relaxing.
Some riding, yeah, but not allthe time and I was a little
nervous to get back on a horsebecause, um, I I've alluded to
it a few times on the podcast,but I've never outright said
(11:36):
that I had a traumatic braininjury.
Yes, and most likely it wasoriginally from being bucked off
a horse, but then it came backbecause COVID attacked my brain
and so when I came to you I waslooking for I was calling it
(11:58):
horse therapy, yeah, whateveryou want to call it, but my
sister-in-law is going throughthe, um, the whole program to.
That's right.
Uh, do therapeutic work withhorses right um, and so she's
got three horses now, and sothat's what got me looking and
that's how I found you, and ittruly is like each time I would
(12:20):
come down to the farm on the wayback, it was almost like I was
so calm and relaxed that I hadto intentionally be like don't
fall asleep on the drive.
And keep that calm, Keep thatcalm especially driving back
into Nashville I wanted to seeyou is because of the nervous
(12:47):
system side of it is that I hadhealed significantly but the
doctors kept saying my body wasjust stressed and my nervous
system was out of whack and tobe around horses can calm that
all down, and that is exactlywhat I experienced a lot.
Speaker 1 (13:00):
Yeah, well, and I think you know what you're
speaking to, like yourexperiences is um like so much
of of what I, you know, try todo with every client is like
give you that embodiedexperience of what your baseline
can look like and can can feellike in your body.
(13:22):
Yeah, so that you know.
You know, you know when you'restarting, when those stress
levels are starting to rise, youknow that you're not at that
baseline anymore and then youcan consciously, you know, make
some other decisions, you know,grab some other resources, some
other tools that you've umdeveloped, developed for
(13:44):
yourself, and try to get back tothat, that baseline yeah, and
you?
Speaker 2 (13:50):
it can so quickly get out of whack that you don't
realize it until you're drawninto a space where your body
calms down, right of like eachtime I go home and I'm around my
family where my mom is justlike let me cook for you, let me
do whatever, and they're sogenerous and kind to me that.
(14:12):
I think I just relax in a waythat's hard to do when you are
self-sufficient on your own andare like I got to get the
groceries I need to work.
And I did read one of your blogposts about burnout and how it
like creeps up on you, yeah, andI'd be curious to hear more
about that if you're willing toshare oh my gosh.
Speaker 1 (14:34):
I mean, I feel like I'm still like learning so much
about my own burnout cycle and Istill get caught up in it.
But something I recentlyrealized for myself like I had
this idea that burnout onlyhappened if I was working too
(14:59):
much.
So I had this idea that, like,if I was, you know, seeing too
many clients, like trying to dotoo many retreats, too many
workshops, like literallyoverloading my schedule, like
that's how my burnout cycle washappening, and so the obvious
solution would be to not put somuch on my schedule, right?
(15:21):
And so I did that and I wasstill burning out and I was like
what is going on?
Like I'm hardly working and I'mstill finding myself in this
burnout cycle?
Um, so it's not as likeclear-cut and straightforward as
I think we would like for it tobe, so that we can like find a
(15:44):
solution.
Like you, you know, you thinkyour burnout is, is just like
your job, you know.
So if I find a different job orif I quit my job which
sometimes that is definitelynecessary um, you know, then I
just won't feel this way anymore.
I won't be burnt out anymoreand exhausted, um, but it's feel
(16:06):
this way anymore, I won't beburnt out anymore and exhausted,
um, but it's.
It's more linked to your traumaloop, like your trauma cycle
and, um, how that gets activated.
So it like, for me personally,it doesn't take too much for
that to be activated.
And then the next thing I know,even though I'm not, you know,
seeing too many clients orworking too much for that to be
activated.
And then the next thing I know,even though I'm not, you know,
(16:27):
seeing too many clients orworking too much.
I'm just like giving my energyout to like anything else that I
that I can find to keep myselfbusy with.
And then I'm just like in thatcycle all over again.
Speaker 2 (16:42):
Yeah, I mean, it can even be friends.
Speaker 1 (16:45):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (16:46):
Or like something totally benign.
Speaker 1 (16:48):
Yeah, yeah, or like doing stand up.
Speaker 2 (16:52):
I enjoyed it a lot and I did over 100 shows and
then I just started dreading theshows I would go to, even
though it's like, oh, it's sofun to watch people laugh and
I'm like I can't believe I'mmaking them laugh.
But then I started likedreading it and I was like I
can't stop, but I but I can, andso I, when I did it was this
(17:16):
relief, even though it wassomething that brought me so
much joy yeah it was the rightdecision to do it right.
Yeah, yeah, I mean.
Speaker 1 (17:26):
I'm just, yeah, I'm finding for myself like I need a
lot.
Uh, I need a lot more likespace and time to continue to
also like heal from years ofburnout yeah and that's the
other thing I think about.
Burnout is like we think thatlike as soon as we like stop
that cycle, we won't feel thatway anymore.
(17:47):
But if you think about likeyears and years of like all of
that stress and what that's doneto your body and to your psyche
and just to, like you know,dredging out those neural
pathways, it's a there's a longrecovery process involved yeah,
it's not like you would break abone and be like, right, oh, I
(18:10):
stopped doing that activity,it'll be fine the next day.
Speaker 2 (18:13):
Yeah, your body had like we internalize so much.
Yes, how did you have you readthe book burnout by emily
nagatsuki?
I have so, have I?
Yes, I like when you're sayinglike stress cycles.
I'm like these sound like words.
Speaker 1 (18:26):
Familiar words.
It's a good book.
Speaker 2 (18:29):
I highly recommend it .
Speaker 1 (18:30):
It is a good book, yeah.
Speaker 2 (18:31):
It's fascinating really.
I think the main thing is likewe get taking work, for example
of like going to work and it'slike as a lawyer, it's like
gotta do this and this and thisand this and you build up, and
traditionally or in the past itwould have been like there's a
lion run, you exert, you're done, but now we're not having that
(18:53):
like completing the stress cycleof right running.
I don't think I'm saying this?
Speaker 1 (18:58):
no, you're saying it.
Yeah, perfectly.
Um, yeah, you're not completingthe cycle.
There's no release.
Speaker 2 (19:04):
Yeah, like the threat is still looming because you
have to go back into work thenext day right, yeah, and some
of the small things that I thinka lot of people know, will work
out or something, or go for awalk or you know, have something
that like completes that yeah,so so something somatic, like
(19:25):
something embodied, yeah, yeahexactly so.
Depth psychology yes.
Can you tell me what that is?
Speaker 1 (19:34):
Like knowing this question is coming.
Speaker 2 (19:37):
I kind of dread it, oh no.
Speaker 1 (19:40):
I've been asked this question, of course, like a
million times, and I never knowwhat I'm going to say.
So I Googled it, I told you,you told me.
Speaker 2 (19:49):
I don't think I can repeat it.
Well, it's.
It's.
It's about like soul work, yes,and what we embody.
I'm slightly using words you'vealready used today and getting
to like the core of the issues.
Speaker 1 (20:04):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, perfectly said, sure.
And getting to like the core ofthe issues, yeah, yeah, yeah,
perfectly said, sure, I.
No, I think it's just like umlike, if I really have to boil
it down, I mean because youcould spend like hours talking
about what depth psychology isand the history of it, um, but I
think when you really boil itdown, it's essentially like
(20:25):
turning towards your unconsciouspsyche, so turning towards your
unconscious material, um seeingthat there's a lot of value in
your unconscious psyche and umdeveloping a relationship with
that part of yourself andallowing that to inform and
(20:49):
guide you.
I'm just going to like stopthere because I'll start to say
things.
Speaker 2 (20:57):
I listen to this podcaster, dr John Deloney, and
he often talks about trauma inchildhood and how things that
they're going through.
Now it's like that child likereacting and controlling and
having that same like fearfulresponse or something, and one
thing he recommends is to writethat child a letter telling them
(21:22):
like you're safe, you're doinga great job, I've got you is
that kind of yeah sure so that'slike you know what you're
speaking to.
Speaker 1 (21:33):
Is um specifically like inner child work, right,
which I think a lot of peopleare probably familiar with, um,
and that's probably a prettygood.
Yeah, that's a great example, Ithink, of how to understand
what depth psychology is,because your inner child is
mostly unconscious, right?
Like we're not walking aroundhaving a conversation with our
(21:55):
inner child every day triggersthat childhood trauma.
The inner child, thatunconscious part of you, that
unhealed childhood trauma,responds essentially, you know,
reacts, and that patterncontinues until you are able to
(22:19):
have a dialogue with thatunconscious part of yourself,
with that unconscious part ofyourself that needs some
reassurance, right, that needsto know that it's safe and that
that trauma is no longerhappening, right?
And what led you to depth um, Ithink, probably my relationship
(22:46):
with my dad.
Um, he, my dad, is like theultimate hippie of all hippies
and he was always veryinterested and involved in his
own dream life and that was verycurious to me.
(23:06):
And as I got older, you know,we would have conversations
about our dreams and heintroduced me to Carl Jung, who
is, you know, like the biggestinfluencer of depth psychology.
And I started reading Carl Jungprobably I read one of his
(23:32):
books, I think, when I was inhigh school, and like none of it
made any sense to me and it wasway over my head, but I knew
that there was something therethat was like very intriguing to
me.
So that's kind of like how, youknow, the ball started rolling
for me and then fast forward.
I got my undergrad in sociology, um, and then I tried to like
(23:57):
work in the real world and hatedit and I was like maybe I'll go
back to school, um, and youknow, in considering what I
might be interested in studying,I did a lot of, like you know,
looking around at differentgraduate schools and I found
Pacifica Graduate Institute,depth.
(24:18):
Psychology is not like a commonthing that people study, like a
common thing that people study.
So anyway, they're out inCalifornia, so I got my graduate
degree in depth psychology withthem.
It was amazing.
Like yeah, I don't, I wouldn't,I wouldn't do it any differently
.
Cool and how did horses comeinto play here?
(24:40):
Even a crazier?
That's a pretty crazy story.
So so I started going tograduate school for depth
psychology.
I thought I was just going, youknow, just for the PhD in
in-depth psychology, and I wasabout halfway through my second
(25:02):
year of studies and I hadnothing to do with horses.
Like I didn't grow up withhorses.
I wasn't currently involvedwith horses like at all.
I was horse obsessed when I wasa little girl.
But that's pretty common, right?
Oh, so common.
My niece, crazy.
Speaker 2 (25:20):
Horse crazy.
Speaker 1 (25:21):
Yeah, so that was me when I was a little girl, but
nothing to do with my adult life.
And so halfway through mysecond year of studies I just
had this like drop of horsedreams, and it just started one
night and it was like everysingle night I was having these
super intense, super vividdreams about horses, and it was
(25:45):
just relentless and it went onfor several months like
literally every single night ohmy gosh and I was like this is
wild, you know like what isgoing on.
And finally I was like, okay,and I was like this is wild, you
know, like what is going on.
And finally I was like, okay,and I was busy, like you know,
doing school and life andworking, but these dreams just
(26:05):
wouldn't shut up or leave mealone.
So I was like, okay, I need toengage with this in some other
way.
It's obviously calling for myattention.
And so I went and found thisbarn where this woman let me,
you know, muck the stalls inexchange for teaching me about
her horses.
And from there you knoweverything just like expanded
(26:28):
and exploded and all of mystudies in depth psychology
started to revolve around theseexperiences that I was now
having with real horses in mywaking life and what was still
happening in my dream life.
So all of my doctoral researchwas about the you know benefits
of the horse-human relationshipfrom a depth psychological
(26:51):
perspective.
Speaker 2 (26:54):
I mean there's a lot of science and research yes,
about horses and how they canhelp us.
Can you tell me more about that?
I, to the extent you canremember, yeah, like I'm more in
the experiential side of things.
Speaker 1 (27:09):
I kind of like all of that.
Um, you know, all of of thescience and all of the studies
that are coming out arefascinating.
But I think when you live withhorses and you do the type of
work that I do with clients andhorses and you're seeing it
happening, you know, in themoment you see these studies and
(27:32):
you're like, well, of course,you know, like we already knew
this.
Yeah, it's great to have youknow the statistics and the
studies and stuff to back it up,um, but also this is something
that's like ancient you know,one thing I I find very
interesting is how they can feelyour energy, and I first kind
(27:57):
of talked to my sister-in-law,katie who will probably be a
recurring theme on this, hey.
Katie.
Speaker 2 (28:05):
But she shared with me that her instructor had had
her go into the pasture with thehorses and they just kind of
ignored her and then she had tocome out and then told her to
breathe like through her nose,like counting, and then step in
and then all the horses likecame up to her right and they
(28:27):
can feel that.
so whenever I approach horseswhich I actually do on a regular
basis, which may be weird, butI do um I do breathing exercises
, like what we did um during oneof my coaching sessions most of
them yeah, and it isinteresting to see how they
respond to me and I've been ingroups of people where I'm doing
(28:49):
that and like the peoplecommented, like all the horses,
like you and I'm like, well it's, they're sensing what I'm doing
and I'm not telling you what.
Speaker 1 (28:57):
I'm doing yeah, totally fascinating.
Yeah, so like such a subtleenergy level that they're
participating in with you yeah,yeah, and the the way that they
feel us like.
Speaker 2 (29:13):
If you're anxious, if you're scared, um, they start
to respond in kind or get alittle jumpy too, right, yeah,
and that's why they're suchgreat therapeutic partners.
Speaker 1 (29:26):
Um, because if you're trying to get this, you know
1200 pound animal to cooperatewith you um, and you're super
anxious, they're going torespond in kind and not be so
cooperative.
So then you have to take apause and consider okay, what do
I need to do, like, how do Ineed to shift my energy in order
(29:48):
to gain cooperation here?
Speaker 2 (29:51):
Yeah, and one thing that comes to mind is when we
were riding I don't rememberwhich horse it was, but we were
riding and we were talking abouta difficult situation.
Speaker 1 (30:02):
I was going through with a friend and I felt the
horse tensing under me and thenI realized I was tensing, and so
we took a moment and everythingjust calmed and we kept going,
and it's just so fascinating howquickly they start to respond
yeah, um, one of the recentstudies that I came across was
(30:25):
um how horses like co-regulatetheir heartbeats in a herd and
um and I think they've knownthis for a long time Like when
it comes to horse and rider,once the rider's heartbeat
starts to accelerate, theirhorse's heartbeat starts to
accelerate immediately.
(30:45):
That's crazy.
Speaker 2 (30:46):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (30:47):
And so, um, yeah, that's just you know, like
scientific proof of what youknow, like you've experienced in
, the difference betweenapproaching a horse not being
aware of your breath versusapproaching like being more in
your body and like intentionallytrying to calm your system the
(31:11):
other experience I reallyenjoyed was with Gator.
Speaker 2 (31:15):
Yeah, so helping him gain confidence, because he
wasn't confident to leave hisherd yeah so you told me he
wasn't rideable because he wouldget too scared, and so you had
me encourage him to get furtherand further away from the herd,
and I'm just curious to explorethat again, of like, why did
(31:39):
helping him build confidencehelp me?
Speaker 1 (31:42):
too, and why was there?
Speaker 2 (31:44):
that connection between us.
Speaker 1 (31:46):
I well, I mean just to paint the the picture for
anyone listening.
Also, gator is a massive horsehe's, I love it.
He's this huge black horse.
I mean, his neck is like thisthick, yeah, but he's so sweet.
And he is a very gentle soul,but you are not going to get him
(32:07):
to cooperate with you unless hewants to, because he's also
figured out that he is bigenough.
You know, if he gets tooanxious anxious he'll just tear
away from you and run back tothe herd.
So you have to like reallyground into yourself and really
(32:29):
make an effort to connect withhim like every step of the way.
You're like checking intogether and he's doing the same
with you, right, like he'schecking in with you and asking
like is she confident?
Like does she know what she'sdoing here?
Because if I sense that she'snot, like I'm out of here.
So doing that exercise reallygives you the embodied
(32:57):
experience of what it feels liketo lead this massive beast
outside of his comfort zone,which requires you to like fully
embody as much confidence asyou can muster.
Right you can muster right andwhat a helpful like experience
(33:21):
to have.
Because we can.
We can talk about like okay,I'm going to go out through my
this week and like I'm going tobe more confident in this
situation, you know, at work orthis relationship, or I'm going
to speak up for myself, but whenyou're actually participating
in that and using your body andyour breath, participating in
that and using your body andyour breath, and you're having
to do it with another being, youknow, you're like really
(33:43):
carving out that, that newneural pathway for yourself,
instead of just talking aboutlike trying to be more confident
yeah, does that make sense?
Speaker 2 (33:51):
yeah, that does, and so who was your first horse?
Speaker 1 (33:56):
well, unfortunately you didn't get to meet him.
He, he passed um two, two-ishyears ago now.
Saltos was his name, cute.
His full name was salto de fe,which means leap of faith, and
he was, uh, andalusian pasifinocross.
He was gorgeous.
(34:17):
He was what you, um people calltheir heart horse.
Like he was my soul.
He was the inspiration for likeeverything that I've done in my
work.
Um, he just meant everything tome.
He was gorgeous, he was.
He was uh white, with like amillion they call it flea bit
(34:38):
like a million tiny little blackspots all over him um, and when
he moved he just looked like hewas like in a parade,
everywhere he was going, uh, buthe was.
He was great with kids, like aslong as I had him on a lunge
line or contained, but he lovedto run like he loved to haul,
(35:01):
and I think my husband got onhim like a couple times and was
like I'm good, he was like afreight train.
But, um, he still comes tovisit me sometimes in my dreams
and I miss him dearly.
Speaker 2 (35:16):
It's, it's hard to lose an animal.
They're, they're just a part ofyou and yeah, yeah, I mean.
Speaker 1 (35:24):
I literally feel like a piece of my soul left when,
when he did.
Speaker 2 (35:29):
Yeah, and so with your herd?
Um, this is actually from Katie, my sister.
Um, do you have specifictraining techniques with your
horses as healers?
Speaker 1 (35:43):
Training techniques with them as far as like getting
them, training them to be liketherapy horses?
Um, oh yeah, that's a goodquestion.
Um, first and foremost, likethey do have to be super safe
and trustworthy to be around.
Um, so they have to be umtraining techniques, though,
(36:08):
specifically, I mean, I I takedefinitely like a natural
horsemanship approach, so I'mnever um trying to force
cooperation from them.
Um, I like to do a lot of likesuper basic groundwork stuff,
like lunging with them, justleading with them, getting them
(36:30):
to respect my space.
Um, I think, probably mostimportantly, like in a therapy
session, they still need tounderstand that the relationship
between them and me is that I'mthe leader, like I am the head
mayor Anytime I step into thepasture with them or the barn or
(36:52):
a therapy session, and that'swhat keeps the container safe
and that just looks like.
As far as training goes, likeevery interaction that I have
with them is like me embodyingthat head mare, like leadership
role, and it's, I mean, training, nothing crazy complicated,
(37:14):
yeah, yeah and so how would youdescribe like coaching versus
therapy?
Speaker 2 (37:22):
yeah, you're not a therapist, no, even though I
call you a therapist.
Yeah, I mean, it feels like it,but sure.
Speaker 1 (37:29):
I mean, it is kind of like a, a mixture yeah right.
But I think, like over the yearsand I, you know, I think I've
been doing this for like 14 plusyears now I have come to more
of a coaching approach, because,you know, clients come because
they want change.
(37:50):
They want to see real change intheir life and I want to help
them get there change in theirlife and I want to help them get
there.
So coaching is more about um,you know, like figuring out what
that looks like, like what isyour ideal?
You know, where do you want tobe, how do you want to feel,
(38:13):
what do you want to be doing,who do you want to be with three
months, six months, a year fromnow.
And then let's break it downand like actually strategize and
like start to make some reallife changes that are really
small and incremental, but likebuild up and give you serious
momentum to actually get to thisnew place that you want to be,
(38:35):
versus therapeutic work, whichis still involved in what I do,
but like I am not going to spendan hour with you just listening
to you and being like well,what does that feel like?
And that sucks, and I'll seeyou next week.
Speaker 2 (38:53):
Like hopefully it gets better.
Speaker 1 (38:57):
Yeah, you know, I really want to like strategize
with you about how we get to thenext step, the next phase.
Speaker 2 (39:06):
Yeah, and I mean, that is definitely why I was
interested.
Because, I have a therapistI've been seeing for a few years
.
I trust her and I I think it'sgood for everyone to have a
therapist whether you'reactually actively going or you
know if something happens, Idon't have to do that work again
of finding someone I trustTotally.
Speaker 1 (39:25):
That can be very hard .
Speaker 2 (39:27):
But I was at a point where I was like I really need
somebody who's going to beintentionally encouraging me and
challenging me and having someaccountability which I don't
find so much in therapy Right, Ifeel like that's a little bit
of a different thing.
So it wasn't like I was comingin and you're like you should do
(39:51):
this and whatever.
It was more like bringing outmy ideas and almost
collaboratively, and thenrevisiting it the next time and
checking it, following up.
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (40:03):
Yeah, I think that.
Yeah, thank you for saying that.
The accountability pieces ishuge, right, yeah, yeah, and I
mean yes, I also have my owntherapist.
I love her, she's amazing, it'ssuper helpful.
Speaker 2 (40:21):
But yeah, coaching is just kind of a different
approach, and so how long didyou say you've been doing
coaching?
Like 14 years.
Speaker 1 (40:27):
Yeah, like 14-ish years, almost 15.
Speaker 2 (40:30):
Has it always taken this form or has your business
evolved?
Speaker 1 (40:34):
It's definitely evolved Like I have, in the last
several years, taken a moreexplicit coaching approach, um,
just after years of likefiguring out what's most helpful
for people.
Um yeah, my like I said when Istarted like I worked with like
(40:59):
anyone and everyone, like alldifferent issues.
So my practice has definitely,my work has definitely evolved,
and now I'm also getting moreinto we're building a.
So we're building a cabin outon our property Awesome.
I don't know if I told you thatI'm calling it the bunk house,
so it's got like eight bunks init and I'm starting to get into
(41:24):
doing more, just like really funstuff, like camp outs for women
.
That's cool, yeah.
So, like one of the last ones Idid well, I do a cowgirl camp
out where you, you come out andwe like have a trail ride and we
(41:44):
have like a steak dinner aroundthe campfire and we go on like
a night hike and then in themornings maybe we go for another
ride.
We go to the barn feed thehorses have some breakfast hang
out at the campfire.
Speaker 2 (41:58):
Just like a fun time yeah.
Speaker 1 (42:00):
Which is therapeutic?
In itself, just getting peopleoutside and just being with the
horses and meeting other people.
Speaker 2 (42:08):
Yeah.
Yeah, I'm glad you brought thatup, because I would have
forgotten to say something aboutthis.
But I noticed a lot of that.
You use the word playful andfun a lot on your website and I
was just I don't know.
I was just curious where thatwas coming from, Because I mean
I think being playful and havingfun in your adult years is
(42:28):
super important and often lost.
Speaker 1 (42:31):
Totally yeah.
I just think we shouldn't takeourselves so seriously.
Speaker 2 (42:39):
Done.
Speaker 1 (42:41):
It's definitely something like I am guilty of
getting trapped in.
It's like taking things tooseriously, getting caught in
your head, right.
So if you can like find morecreative, playful fun outlets
for yourself, like the healingkind of, just happens naturally.
Speaker 2 (43:00):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (43:00):
Without so much hard work, like it doesn't have to be
so serious.
Speaker 2 (43:05):
It doesn't have to be so serious, it doesn't have to
be so hard yeah, I find I Idon't feel like I laugh as much
as I like I was laughing so hardabout something the other day
and I I don't remember what itwas, but it just felt like this
huge release and I was like whydon't I laugh more?
Yeah, do I not find thingsfunny?
Speaker 1 (43:27):
like I don't know.
I thought I did funny people inmy life anyway, yeah, yeah,
it's definitely not me yeah,like just you know, like I'll
find myself sitting down towatch something on tv and I'm
like I need a good laugh.
Like I haven't really had agood laugh in a while, and so
finding something to make melaugh is like yeah one of the
(43:49):
most therapeutic things you cando for yourself is just to have
a good laugh.
Speaker 2 (43:53):
Yeah, and you have done a retreat in the past with
Roxanne.
I think the Sisters Beloved.
Speaker 1 (44:03):
I have done some work with Roxanne.
Um the retreats.
I've worked with severaldifferent women Okay.
Um, the last retreat that I didon my property um was with a
good friend of mine who was alsoa coach.
Um, christie shots and she's uhlives in Florida, um, and so
I'm hoping to get those back upand running, okay, when the
(44:25):
cabin is done and I cancoordinate with her and we do
these like three night into liketherapeutically intensive
retreats.
Speaker 2 (44:36):
Um, that's essentially like five years
worth of therapy packed into aweekend okay yeah, so those are
very focused um, and there's a,there's a lot involved in those
and and part of that is likefemale friendships right and
(44:57):
totally how important thosereally are for women.
I think a lot of times womenget a bad rap for having these
very toxic female friendships,when a very healthy I mean.
I think it's essential to whowe are and to build community
and to be healthy and have fun.
Speaker 1 (45:20):
Yeah, yeah, that's.
That's a huge element of theretreats, like the camp, just
the fun little camp outs that Ido.
The women that come always haveso much anxiety about being
around other women.
Yeah, Like for an extendedperiod of time and doing deep.
(45:41):
You know work and just how muchvulnerability is involved in
that.
But inevitably what happens is,you know, when we all come
together and people start tokind of let their guards down,
it's just like the it's the mostpowerful medicine that they
didn't know that they needed tohave that female connection.
(46:06):
Yeah, it's beautiful.
Speaker 2 (46:08):
Yeah, and on that I'm going to bring up a new segment
that we might make recurring.
We'll see.
I'm calling it something likewomen killing it.
So my good friend, summerHarkup she's a producer on this
show and she also helps meproduce Cheaper Than Therapy.
Okay, and so I wanted to sharesomething really cool that
(46:31):
happened to her.
She is a defense lawyer atWickersmith in Nashville and
they posted about this on theirLinkedIn.
She recently obtained a defenseverdict in a construction case
in which she was defending ageneral contractor against a
homeowner.
The allegations involved breachof contract, negligent
construction, violations of theTennessee Consumer Protection
(46:53):
Act and of the TennesseeContractors Licensing Act.
She got a partial summaryjudgment and a directed verdict
on others, meaning they went herway by the judge, and then,
after three days of trial, thejury returned a unanimous
defense verdict for theremaining claims.
So her um, her client, won oneverything, and this was in
(47:16):
Memphis, which is a notoriouslydifficult venue in these cases.
So I wanted to give a shout outto Summer and how amazing that
is and she was working so hardand so, yeah, awesome, we'll
just say she's amazing.
Speaker 1 (47:32):
Oh, way to go Summer.
Yeah, Very cool.
Speaker 2 (47:34):
So what are you obsessing over lately?
Speaker 1 (47:38):
Oh gosh what am I obsessing over lately?
Um a lot of things I contend tobe somewhat obsessive uh, me
too.
Speaker 2 (47:49):
That's why I'm really asking this.
Speaker 1 (47:51):
Okay, yeah, oh my gosh, there's so many things um,
I think, like you know, beingreal, uh, with that question, I
think I am very obsessed rightnow with um trying to be a mom
yeah yeah yeah, because you're,do you mind?
(48:13):
no.
I'm going through IVF yeah yeah, I'm going through IVF, have
been for a good while now.
Um, my husband and I have beentrying to build a family and,
you know, get pregnant forseveral years.
It's been a really toughjourney and I think you know if
you're familiar, you've been inthis journey.
On any level.
It's easy to obsess over.
(48:36):
Yeah, so anything likefertility, ivf related, I'm all
over it.
Speaker 2 (48:44):
I've heard.
It's very challenging and justall consuming because you're
having to monitor everything andyou're learning things about
your body you never knew butmaybe you should have learned in
high school or somethingTotally yeah, yeah.
Thanks for sharing that I feellike I believe a lot more women
are going through that than Ithink it's becoming more common
(49:08):
to talk about it, right, um, butI appreciate you sharing that
because I feel like it can giveencouragement to other women.
Speaker 1 (49:15):
Yeah, it's not something that's, um, talked
about a lot.
I think there's some sort oflike taboo around it, like it's
a personal thing you should keepto yourself, um, but I think if
I came on your podcast anddidn't mention that that was a
massive part of my life rightnow, yeah, it would be a bit
disingenuous.
Speaker 2 (49:33):
So, yeah, well, I at least, and probably others, will
be praying for you and yourthank you the family.
There's a uh.
Have you ever heard of MariLlewellyn?
No, I don't think so.
Um, I guess she I don't knowwhat I would call her she's
definitely got some influence.
Speaker 1 (49:51):
I don't want to say influencer, because she does
more than that.
Speaker 2 (49:55):
Um, I listened to her podcast, the pursuit of
wellness, and in the last six toseven months she has stopped
really interviewing peoplebecause she's been going through
IVF and she's shared herjourney and I've learned a lot.
I think it was very helpful to.
That's how I know anythingabout it and it's it's really
(50:16):
interesting to hear howall-consuming and how difficult
yeah, it really is, I will lookher up.
So definitely look her up.
Speaker 1 (50:29):
I've been obsessing over my continuous glucose
monitor?
How often are you checking?
Is it on your phone?
Speaker 2 (50:34):
It's on my phone.
My glucose was very low so Igot this and it's been a little
too fascinating.
But what's really interestingis I was dropping so much that I
almost thought I should go tothe ER, oh my gosh.
And then I did a 24-hour fast,which I was hesitant about
(50:54):
because I was like well, ifyou're dropping, are you gonna
pass out?
But after the 24-hour fastwhich was totally fine it's
changed.
Like I, my glucose is notdropping as often.
So you think that gave you kindof like a reset?
I think so.
Cause 24 hours is about the fastlength you need for your gut to
(51:14):
rebuild and heal.
Speaker 1 (51:16):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (51:16):
And so I had this theory that cause I'm glucose
intolerant, like all thesethings, that I had damaged my
gut and I wasn't absorbingnutrients.
So yeah, I am gonna go see adoctor.
It's just that part of theissue is I couldn't get in until
like September.
Oh my gosh.
Speaker 1 (51:33):
So it's like, anyway, nashville doctors so yeah, how
often are you like looking atthis on your phone?
Speaker 2 (51:39):
I mean more than once an hour.
Speaker 1 (51:42):
Well, that's why, like I, I like tell people, like
I was telling you about the umaura ring, yeah, like I tell
other people to get it, but Iknow if I got it it I would
probably get too obsessed yeah,I think that this I will not be
having this in when I go toscotland, because I'm like we
(52:02):
don't need to be like obsessed,you'll survive yeah and I think
part of it was like every timeit would drop below 70 it would
just like beep, even if yourphone's on silent and so I was
always watching because I waslike, oh, I don't want it to go
beeping.
Speaker 2 (52:16):
And it beeped in the middle of a client meeting.
I was like I'm so sorry, it'smy glucose and the client's like
what?
Speaker 1 (52:25):
Well, I thought about getting one of those too, just
to like pay attention to whatmakes it spike you know, like in
your diet.
Speaker 2 (52:34):
Yeah, it's been interesting for that.
Speaker 1 (52:35):
Yeah, for sure.
Speaker 2 (52:37):
Yeah, let's see.
Do you have any recommendationsfor our listeners?
Speaker 1 (52:42):
Oh, that's a pretty general question.
Any recommendations, Um, Ithink.
Well, speaking of diet, likeanytime I'm working with a
client, like I go to, like superfoundational things, you know,
and and talk about like exercise, diet, sleep.
(53:02):
So like exercise, diet, sleep.
So like just go back to yourbasics.
Yeah, like I, it's somethingI'm also obsessing over right
now is my own sleep.
It's like my number one priority.
So like clean up your sleephygiene right um clean up your
diet and get some movement inyour life.
(53:23):
It's like the most basic adviceever, but it can totally change
your world.
Speaker 2 (53:29):
I feel like often we try to hack things so much when
it's like that's good, but areyou doing these things first,
Right?
Speaker 1 (53:37):
Yeah, we want a shortcut.
Speaker 2 (53:39):
And it doesn't even have to be a massive shift, but
little baby steps towards,towards something.
Yeah, totally yeah.
My recommendation this week isa book series that I really like
um I was thinking about thisbecause I'm like, I've
recommended non-fiction, solet's go with fiction.
It's called the lunar chronicleseries by marissa meyer and
(54:00):
they're retellings of like fairytale, like Cinderella, oh cool.
And what am I thinking of?
Rapunzel and stuff like that,oh yeah, and it's like five
books, four or five books, butthey're really well written,
okay, and I always love a goodretelling, but these are great.
I'm still I know that somebodybought like the movie rights and
(54:24):
so I'm always just like waiting.
Speaker 1 (54:26):
Yeah, is it coming out?
Speaker 2 (54:27):
But they're very.
They're a fun read and verywell written Awesome.
Highly recommend them.
I love a good bookrecommendation, yeah.
So what are you looking forwardto this week?
Speaker 1 (54:39):
What am I looking forward to this week?
I'm looking forward to gettingour cabin wrapped up.
Are you that close?
It's very close.
Cool, it's so close.
I'm hoping it'll be ready forthe fall and it will be open.
I'll have it listed on Airbnb.
Speaker 2 (54:58):
Nice.
Speaker 1 (54:58):
So you can come and stay and, like, hike the
property, hang out with thehorses.
So I'm not just, it's not justfor my campouts and retreats.
You can just come and stay also.
So yeah, I'm looking forward togetting that done this week.
Speaker 2 (55:14):
So I know your property, I know other people
don't.
Is it going to be like couldthe horses just like come up to
the cabin?
Speaker 1 (55:21):
Yes.
Speaker 2 (55:21):
Oh, that's so cool yeah.
Speaker 1 (55:23):
So, as you know and yeah, people listening don't
know um our 10 horse horses areheard is free roaming on the
entire 93 acres, which includesthe cabin site.
Speaker 2 (55:36):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (55:37):
So, yeah, you can like be hanging out on the porch
, on the cabin, and like, herecomes the horses to graze in the
we call it the twin pastures iswhere it is.
So, yeah, it's a pretty magicallittle spot okay good to know.
Yeah, I'm like, I'm thinkingI'll be looking on Airbnb and if
they're not there, you justlike go for a short little hike
(55:59):
and, you know, find them yeah,they'll show up, they'll find.
Speaker 2 (56:03):
Yeah, they do.
I'm looking forward to liketomorrow just having like a very
quiet morning.
I don't have anything untillike one o'clock and I'm just
like this is, I love those daysCan you actually sleep in?
Yeah, what's weird is that Idon't sleep in very much on the
(56:23):
weekends like or if I'm workingfrom home, I just very naturally
wake up around 6 30 when I haveto go to the office you're like
dead asleep, yeah, and I don'tknow if that's like because of
the commute or just like therush of like okay, we got to get
up, we got to go.
But it's just so funny to me.
I'm like why can I not wake up?
(56:44):
It's like the one time youreally feel like you could sleep
forever, yeah yeah, yeah, it'san ongoing problem.
Um so, ashley, where is thebest place for people to find
you?
Speaker 1 (56:58):
um on my website currently um I'm.
I've been kind of taking asocial media break, so if you
just go to antlerandashcom andfill out my little contact form,
you show up in my email and Irespond to you as a real person
and start a conversation.
Speaker 2 (57:17):
Thank you so much for being here.
This was great.
This was really great.
Thank you, Um, and thank youguys for listening.
Um, please subscribe to myYouTube channel and follow me
wherever you listen to yourpodcast.
We'll see you next week.
The end.
Thanks for listening to mycrunchy zen era.
Please subscribe and leave areview wherever you listen to
(57:37):
your podcasts.
This podcast is produced by me,Nicole Swisher, and my good
friends Summer Harkup and Liz CGolder.
Editing is by Drew HarrisonMedia and recording is done by
Lagos Creative in Nashville,Tennessee.
Thanks for hanging out.
We'll be back next week.
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