August 7, 2025 • 55 mins
I had this fear that I would die without having written a book because I was too scared.... Sara Holifield aka Avalon Griffin admits as she shares about quitting her job to write a paranormal romance novel. Join Sara and Nicole as they discuss:
- Quitting jobs to reset your life
- Sara's books: Unbound by Shadows and To Dwell in Shadows
- Romance novels as a tool for healing and empowerment
- Practical writing advice
- The Enneagram
- Decluttering cords and the stress of throwing things away
Whether you're struggling with a creative project, considering a career pivot, or simply curious about paranormal romance featuring smut-reading demons, this episode offers both practical guidance and permission to pursue what haunts you—before it's too late.
Subscribe now and join this exploration of what it means to live a happy life in an increasingly complicated world.
Host: Nicole Swisher
Guest: Sara Holifield aka Avalon Griffin
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:08):
Welcome to my Crunchy Zen Era.
I'm your host, Nicole Swisher.
My guest today is SarahHolifield.
She writes as Avalon Griffin.
Speaker 2 (00:18):
Welcome, thank you.
Thank you for having me.
I'm excited to be here.
Speaker 1 (00:21):
Same.
What's something crunchy or zenthat you've done lately?
Speaker 2 (00:27):
I recently got one of those spiky acupressure mats.
I had one once.
I love it.
Like they had it at Aldi theyhad it at Aldi on sale and I
just saw so many people like I'man Aldi Facebook group, like
fans of Aldi.
People loved it and I was like,well, it's like nine bucks, I'm
(00:47):
just going to get it.
And it's real spicy at firstwhen you lay down, but then it's
like something happens and youjust go into the zone and I love
it.
Speaker 1 (00:57):
It's great.
Did yours have like the pillowpart too?
Speaker 2 (01:00):
Yeah, it has the pillow.
So at first I did it like witha t-shirt on.
Yeah, I had to work up to likebare skin.
But you're doing a bare skin.
Yeah, how long have you hadthis?
A couple months, wow.
I only do it for like 10minutes, but it's like, I don't
know, something happens whereit's.
I don't know if it's like yourendorphins kick in, but it's
like you, it's real spicy atfirst, like I said, but then it
(01:22):
kind of gets to like this zenzone, a crunchy zen zone, yeah,
like after I don't know aboutlike two or three minutes.
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (01:30):
I wonder if it's kind of like when you first start
doing like saunas or like coldplunges yeah, it could be like
that.
Yeah, it could be yeah, Iordered one from Amazon.
This was years ago and I'mgonna be honest, I don't think I
ever used it.
You need to try it and I'vebeen on a purge and I just
brought it together.
Oh no, I'm sad, I would havetried it oh, shoot, okay, but I
think I like put my hands on it.
Speaker 2 (01:50):
I was like no, don't do that.
Yeah, no, I think it's likeit's like the whole, like your
body weight, like it kind ofdistributes the spikiness of it
a little bit, okay, and what itlooks like for our listeners,
viewers.
Speaker 1 (02:03):
It's like a mat that you lay out on the ground and it
has spikes, little littleplastic spikes, spikes, yeah.
And then there's like a head,that uh pillow that would go
like at your neck right, andit's supposed to hit the um
pressure, not pressure points,what is it called?
Speaker 2 (02:19):
it's like the acupressure points.
I don't know if it really doesthat, but yeah, just the, just
the spikiness of it, and it alsokind of draws all your
attention to your back.
That's like on fire for alittle bit.
So yeah, I've really enjoyed it.
Speaker 1 (02:32):
I could see it like because I have done acupuncture
and I love acupuncture.
Okay, I just find it hard tokeep up with.
Yeah, sure, that is verycrunchy, yeah, so if you could
relive any memory, what would itbe and why?
Speaker 2 (02:49):
Okay, I think so years ago, probably 2023.
So I'm a huge fan of the GoldenGirls and in 2023, they had
their first Golden Girl fanconvention in Chicago that I
went to with my best friend.
It was two days and it hadworkshops that had, like,
(03:10):
blanche's sister spoke andEstelle Getty's assistant and
Bea Arthur's assistant, but atthe end they had all of us in
this big auditorium.
It was probably 3,000 peopleand we all sang thank you for
being a friend together and thenthe woman, the original singer
of the of the theme song, cameout and sang and it was just
(03:31):
this amazing, stupid moment oflike all these, all the girls
and gays here to see the goldengirl convention, we're just all
singing confetti drop from theceiling.
It was just just so much fun.
Speaker 1 (03:43):
That sounds great.
I feel like those memorieswhere you're in a group that
it's like it's this, it's justthis thing that you love and you
just feel that energy and you,it's just so fun to be like
hokey and kitschy and just yeah,there's, there are no stakes
here, like it's right, yeah,yeah.
Speaker 2 (04:01):
We just embrace it, like what we have in common.
Is we like this show from the80s?
Yeah and yeah, it was a lot offun.
Speaker 1 (04:08):
I like that.
I don't.
I haven't gone to like a lot ofconventions about things that I
really like, um, but I am goingto a Bigfoot convention in a
few weeks.
Speaker 2 (04:19):
Oh my gosh, there will definitely.
That will be very interesting.
Yes, absolutely, I find itfascinating.
I can't wait to hear about that.
Speaker 1 (04:26):
Yes, um, all right, so I do a little grab bag.
Okay, I feel like I should getlike a pretty bag and I just
haven't okay, but I'm gonna dothis.
Let's see what we got oh wait,okay, I've got to start putting
these aside.
Speaker 2 (04:40):
I've done that one twice, so we're not doing that
one.
Speaker 1 (04:43):
Okay, I'm getting better at this.
I think, oh, perfect for you.
What's the last book, movie orTV show you hated?
Did you finish it?
Oh my gosh, I said perfect foryou before I finished reading
that sentence.
Speaker 2 (04:57):
I thought it was like you loved.
Speaker 1 (04:59):
I was like oh.
Speaker 2 (05:00):
I hate it.
I tried to watch the new Sexand the City and Just Like that
that has been so manycommercials for that I can't do
it.
Is it a show or a movie?
It's a show, it is, andSamantha's not in it, so it's
just Carrie, miranda andCharlotte.
I watched the first season.
I tried to watch the secondseason and it's just bad.
(05:24):
I don't know.
They've just changed thecharacters.
They have silly storylines.
It's not good, it's sad yeah, Iuh.
Speaker 1 (05:33):
So Sex and the City was a show that I wasn't
supposed to watch, but it was onreruns when I was probably high
school or middle school and myparents finally let me have a tv
in my room.
I think it was black and whiteoh no okay, and I would secretly
like watch sex in the city, soI have like fond memories of
that yeah but then I, I don'tknow.
I was like are they, is thislike a whole show that they're
(05:55):
redoing?
And so I'm disappointed to hearthat yeah, but I have not had
the urge to watch it so good toknow.
Um, all right.
So, sarah, yes, we met, becauseI took a romance novel writing
class at the porch in Nashvilleand you were my teacher.
I was, and it was very fun andas, as you were talking about,
(06:16):
like the golden girls conferenceI was thinking about, I feel
like you talked about going tosome conferences- and part of
what I loved about the class isthat everyone there was very
like passionate about writingand I just feel like you don't
get around a lot of people whohave something like this or I
don't.
Maybe other people do have ashared passion.
(06:38):
It's just like so fun andinspiring to see that yeah.
Yeah, so you wrote a book.
Speaker 2 (06:47):
I did yes.
Speaker 1 (06:48):
So I called it.
Speaker 2 (06:49):
So I write romance under the pen name Avalon
Griffin, and I wrote theparanormal romance unbound by
shadows, and I've just finishedthe sequel to dwell in shadows,
um, which comes out next weeknext week being July.
Speaker 1 (07:04):
July 17th, 17th, okay , this is going to come out
August.
I think.
I said like 7th or something.
Great, that'll be perfect,it'll be out, yeah, cool.
And so when did you decide towrite a book, to start writing?
Speaker 2 (07:17):
So I think I've always I've always been
interested in writing.
I you know, at school peopletell me I'm a great writer, you
know I'm so creative, that sortof thing.
But I think I never took itseriously because I thought it
was be too hard and I alsothought, well, you can't really
make money, so who cares, whyshould you do it?
And then it just kind of got tothe point where I just felt
(07:40):
like I had to do something withwriting.
It just kind of wouldn't leaveme alone.
So I started doing creativenonfiction and then I was also
reading a lot of romance.
I've always read romance, likesince high school I had a Fabio
birthday cake in high school.
Speaker 1 (07:56):
I saw that on your Like in the 90s yeah.
Speaker 2 (08:00):
I've been a longtime romance reader and I just had
this.
I was reading a lot ofhistorical fiction and the kind
of the paranormal romance thatwas that used to be at would be
just kind of vampires, maybe alittle bit of witches, maybe
some ghosts once in a while, andI was really interested in
demons.
So I had this idea of like kindof a fish out of water, like a
(08:23):
woman goes to another dimension,meets a demon there who woman
goes to another dimension, meetsa demon there who's also from
another dimension, and I justfelt like I need to write this
story or it's going to keepbugging me.
So I just kind of started, realsimple, like I didn't know what
I was doing at all.
I went to a conference inAtlanta for romance doing at all
(08:47):
.
I went to a conference inAtlanta for romance just a
romance convention with readersand writers and I took a romance
writers boot camp and that'swhat kind of just set me on this
path of like okay, I'm doingthis, this is what I'm going to
do.
But I still felt a little bitlike I was only kind of doing it
just a few hours every month.
I was kind of messing around alittle bit and I kind of felt
(09:07):
like if I really want to writethis book, I need to raise the
stakes for myself.
So I was in a job I didn't likeand I kind of thought I'm just
gonna live the dream and quit myjob to write a book.
And so I can't like I stillcan't believe I did that right
now, like that's what I did.
So I quit my job, I took abouta year off just just working on
(09:33):
the book and then I startedpicking up.
I have a background innonprofit, so then I started
picking up grant proposalwriting work.
So I was doing kind of halfwayfiction writing and then grant
writing and then that's kind ofbrought me to that's what,
pretty much what I do today.
Speaker 1 (09:50):
And so the job that you quit, like what were you
doing?
Speaker 2 (09:54):
So it was working in event planning, so it was like
planning events for rich people.
Speaker 1 (10:01):
Interesting.
So it's very different.
I don't know if I knew that,because I know now you do grant
writing which.
I'm like well, that's writing.
It goes along with what you'redoing so like when you were in,
say like middle school or highschool.
What job or what did youpicture yourself doing at this
time?
Speaker 2 (10:19):
When I was a kid, I wanted to be a vet.
Speaker 1 (10:21):
Oh, totally.
Speaker 2 (10:25):
I mean, you know, because I love cats.
Speaker 1 (10:26):
A cat-specific vet you know, oh, only cats, only
cats.
Yeah, I feel like that's.
I feel like my niece would dothat, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2 (10:33):
And then I think I don't.
I didn't really know what Iwanted to do.
My degree is in sociology andwomen's studies, so I wanted to
do something kind of with women,with empowerment, kind of that
sort of thing.
So really I got into thenonprofit field.
I worked kind of in the victimservices field.
(10:54):
I worked in health care, youdetails and kind of little,
figuring out lots of littlethings, kind of keeping track of
a lot of little things.
But it wasn't really what Iwanted.
It was sort of one of thosethings that like, once you, you
(11:17):
know you graduate college, youkind of take whatever first job
you can get.
Speaker 1 (11:20):
Oh yeah, yeah, and then you know it kind of.
Speaker 2 (11:23):
Then you know you don't like that job, so you take
this other job and it's notreally that great of a job.
And I just kind of went in thiscycle and then it kind of
realized, like in my mid to late30s, like is this it?
Like is this, this is my?
Speaker 1 (11:35):
this is being an adult, like yeah, and I don't
want to do this so, like whenyou started having like this
idea for the book, is that aboutthe timing of it mid to late
30s?
Speaker 2 (11:45):
yeah, yeah, so it was , um, so I quit my job.
I want to say I was 39, okay,and I think when I, when I in
our class, you know, when weworked together, I had everybody
go around the room and talkabout you know what they wanted
to do, I feel like everybodythere was like I want to write a
book before I'm 40.
So that was a pretty commontheme.
Did you, when did you?
Speaker 1 (12:06):
finish your book.
Speaker 2 (12:06):
I was.
I fit, well it's.
I finished it.
I finished writing it in 2020and then it was published in
2023, so there was a lot of inbetween of like editing.
I tried to query it to gettraditionally published and then
, when I decided to go theself-publishing route the indie
publishing all the work involvedin that took some time as well
(12:29):
so did you have a goal offinishing it by the time you're
40?
I just wanted to do it.
I didn't really have a reallyset goal, like I wasn't.
I wasn't disappointed when Iturned 40 and it wasn't done.
I just I felt good that I wason this path.
Um, I did.
I felt like it took me a lotlonger than I thought.
Like because I think that wasanother thing too is, what was
(12:50):
keeping me from writing the bookis I thought, well, I have this
job.
If I didn't have this job, thenI could just have all this time
, all right, eight hours a day.
And that didn't happen.
Speaker 1 (13:00):
So, with quitting your job, how did you support
yourself for a year?
Speaker 2 (13:05):
if you do you mind me asking, no, I uh my husband was
working a job that paid verywell at the time, which was
great, and then we also had alot of savings.
So because I feel like would.
Speaker 1 (13:18):
Would you tell aspiring authors to do the same?
No, okay, I don't think I wantto clarify.
Speaker 2 (13:24):
No, not at all no, this is not writing advice.
Quit your job, and you knowthat's the only way you can
write a book.
Not at all.
That was just.
It was just something for me.
Like I said, I felt I had toraise the stakes, I had to make
it a little bit scary for me.
I had to get rid of all myexcuses for not writing and was
part of quitting your job.
Speaker 1 (13:44):
It wasn't.
I don't want to put words inyour mouth but, but I'm going to
try, okay.
So it wasn't just about writingthe book, was it?
Was it also about the fact thatyou were in this job, that
you're like, how did I get hereand I need a reset, or what?
Yeah, a reset, that's a greatway of putting it.
Yeah, it was it was a reset.
Speaker 2 (14:01):
That's a great way of putting it.
Yeah, it was.
It was a reset.
It was a not just kind ofreacting to whatever job I could
get.
It was more being in thedriver's seat for my life and my
career and figuring out what Iwant to do, where I want to go
and how I want to do it.
Yeah, I.
Speaker 1 (14:23):
I can relate to that because I've I English major
yeah, great life, yeah, yeah andstarting like my first job it
was like I, it was 2009 and Iwas like I just need a job.
And then I went to law schoolbecause I was like, well, now
what do I do?
And so I've been on this pathof like being in like big law
(14:45):
firms, and then, when I moved toNashville, I was at a firm for
four weeks or four weeks thatwould have been even better four
months solid four months and Iquit without a job and it was
just not a fit and it felt likea reset.
And then I moved into working atthese smaller firms that are a
much better fit.
But it was again.
(15:06):
I wouldn't recommend that foranyone, but for me it was very
empowering.
Yeah Of like, yeah.
For me it was also like God'sgot me, like I'm going to be
fine, but just having that likepull the plug, this is not in
alignment with my values or what, where I wanted to be.
Speaker 2 (15:24):
Yeah, so yeah, and it's great and it's like it's,
it's scary and it and it's.
You know, I felt like I hadpeople in my life.
They're like, what are youdoing?
But I, just for me, I felt likeI'm just gonna jump.
And then it turned out reallygood, Like it, and there was
light at the end of the tunneland it turned out okay.
Speaker 1 (15:43):
Yeah, and so one of my goals for this year was to
even just start a podcast.
And I feel like you know, you,it's like what is the goal?
Is it to finish a book at acertain time, or is it to just
start the process?
And so it's like is it for me,like I don't know, having a
(16:03):
certain amount of listeners, or?
Speaker 2 (16:05):
is it?
Speaker 1 (16:05):
just the fact that I started this thing that I've
wanted to for years Did you feelthat of like you.
It was just a big thing tostart.
Speaker 2 (16:15):
Yeah, I was scared, I had this fear that I would die
without having written a bookbecause I was too scared die
without having written a bookbecause I was too scared and I
felt like I didn't want.
I didn't want to live with thatregret and that feeling of like
I could have written a book,only I didn't try hard enough, I
didn't have enough courage, Ididn't, um, really put myself to
(16:37):
it.
So that was, it was more for me, just doing it.
And then, even when it was done, even when the book was done, I
always thought I'd had thismoment of like I did it and I
never really did because therewas so many other steps to do,
there were so many other thingsto learn.
And it wasn't until now thatI've completed the second book,
(16:58):
that I sort of had that momentthat I didn't just write one
book, I wrote two books.
Speaker 1 (17:03):
Yeah, and I mean, did you like the process of it?
I?
Speaker 2 (17:07):
did.
I would say this is I don't saythis to discourage aspiring
writers, but writing the book isthe easiest part.
Really it's the rest of it, themarketing, the figuring out how
to connect with your readers.
It's, you know, doing yoursocial media Like that's, that's
the hard part.
Speaker 1 (17:27):
I've always found writing hard.
It is hard, it is yeah.
One thing you said in the classthat I liked a lot was that
people assume I'm going tobutcher this.
Speaker 2 (17:39):
So you that's okay, that's okay.
Speaker 1 (17:40):
People assume that you just know how to write and
you just write, but like witheverything, you learn that too.
Please rephrase that.
Yeah, that's okay.
People assume that you justknow how to write and you just
write, but like with everythingyou learn that too, please
rephrase that yeah, that's agreat point.
Speaker 2 (17:49):
I feel like writing is one of the things that people
kind of feel like well, I reada lot, so I should be able to
write a lot and I don't need totake any classes or read any
books about writing.
I should just be able to sitdown and just write a bestseller
and that any books aboutwriting.
I should just be able to sitdown and just write a bestseller
.
And it's not.
That's not how it works.
I think one of the one of thethings that stopped me or
(18:11):
discouraged me a lot when Ifirst started writing is I was
writing something and then Iwould compare that to a
published work, a published book, and be like well, my writing
is terrible, like I really suckWithout realizing like that
finished book had been throughwho knows how many drafts, how
many editors, how many tweaks,how many beta readers.
(18:35):
Like there's a whole bigprocess to get to that finished
product.
And so with writing, it's notjust you kind of sit down and do
it.
It's a lot of steps, it's a lotof drafts and it's different
for every person too.
That's kind of why it's reallya learn by doing process that
you just have to start doing itand start doing a lot of
(18:55):
different things.
There's a lot of people that say, well, don't you know, you just
write it all out really roughand then you don't edit as you
go.
And I tried to do that and Igot into a huge mess of plots
that I didn't want to follow.
And so the other, you know,because kind of the other side
of the coin is like edit as yougo, like you can do that.
There are some people that loveto do sprints, like they love
(19:16):
to set a timer I'm going towrite for 20 minutes and they
just go.
That doesn't work for me.
I'm more of a time person, likeI'm more of a.
I want to.
I'm sorry.
More of a, like a, I want tofinish this scene by today, that
sort of thing.
Speaker 1 (19:31):
Do you so?
Do you set yourself like wordcount goals, or is it really
just like?
This is the scene that I'mwriting.
Speaker 2 (19:36):
It's more the scene for me, but there's lots of
people that that do word countgoals yeah.
Speaker 1 (19:40):
And did, did you create an outline for either of
your?
Speaker 2 (19:43):
books, no.
So in kind of the writing world, people put themselves sort of
in two camps plotters andpantsers.
So plotters are more peoplethat kind of know exactly what's
going to happen.
They have a great outline andthen pantsers fly by the seat of
their pants, kind of just writeas they go.
In my life I'm very much aplotter.
(20:03):
I'm very organized, detailoriented, all that.
But in my writing I'm more of apantser, which is harder for me
, because it's like sometimesthere'll be scenes that I know
that'll happen but I don't knowwhat happens in between.
Speaker 1 (20:17):
Do you think part of that is because you're a planner
?
Speaker 2 (20:20):
Maybe.
Yeah, that's a good question,yeah that.
Yeah, maybe you just kind of, sothat you can just like let it
go and so yeah yeah, and thenbecause I found when I planned
my writing I overplanned andthen I was like cheating myself
out of that.
There's a there's sometimes,when you're writing, there's a
really kind of exciting thingthat happens when it's like you
(20:41):
have these loose ends that youdon't know how to fix and you
just get this lightning bolt ahamoment like oh my gosh, this is
how that happened.
And it's like when I wasplotting so much I wasn't
getting as many of those.
And then when I just kind oflet it go and just kind of let
it, you know see what happenedwhen I sat down to write.
Speaker 1 (21:00):
Then things fell into place more like I wanted and so
your book takes place inanother dimension, but they
start in Tennessee.
Yes, and the town?
What's the name of the townwhere they go?
Speaker 2 (21:13):
So it starts in.
So it's about a woman fromNashville who goes on a road
trip with her sister to Rugby,tennessee, which is this funny
little town.
Had you been there I had anddid that kind of inspire some of
that I did yeah, I was lookingfor it because I knew I wanted
the human character to kind offall into a portal somewhere in
Tennessee and I wanted someplace that felt a little odd a
(21:37):
little.
The veil is thin.
Speaker 1 (21:40):
What brought you there?
Speaker 2 (21:41):
A friend of mine had recommended it.
A friend of mine went there andstayed there.
So Rugby is this funny littletown like a Victorian utopia, is
kind of where it was.
It was what it was built to beand it still has a lot of the
same Victorian buildings.
But my husband and I went there.
We went in the winter, when itwas cold, when it was closed,
(22:04):
like it's only really open forthe summer, and we went there
and it was so eerily quiet.
Speaker 1 (22:09):
Weird.
Speaker 2 (22:10):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (22:11):
How far away is that?
Speaker 2 (22:12):
It's maybe like three hours hours.
It's kind of like it's in kindof Scott County, kind of like
north of like Crossville, okay Iknow where that.
Yeah, I was like there's aScott County yeah, yeah, I hope
that's the right county.
I haven't said like I haven'tsmirched rugby's name.
Yeah, yeah that's interesting.
Speaker 1 (22:31):
So there's probably hardly anyone that actually
lives.
Yeah, there's not any there's.
Speaker 2 (22:35):
I think there's less than 100 people that live there,
but in the kind of thesurrounding area there's,
there's some woods that leaddown to a place called the
gentleman swimming hole.
Oh, it's back in the day, justgentlemen only is there a lady?
Swimming hole not that I knowof but there is a witch's cave
down there.
Speaker 1 (22:54):
So when I found that, I was like that's my portal.
Speaker 2 (22:58):
So in that, so in the book I have, the main character
goes on a road trip with hersister.
They go on a hike in rugby, thesister kind of goes off to the
gentleman's swimming hole totake pictures, and the sis the
main character name is selenefalls through this portal, ends
up in a matriarchal society fullof ruled by seven queens who
(23:20):
are also cryptids, and thenfalls in love with a demon I
think you need to clarify whatcryptids, sure, so cryptids are
kind of urban mythology umbigfoot is a cryptid Mothman.
Jersey Devil In Tennessee.
The Wampus cat is kind of ourresident cryptid.
(23:40):
It's just a big scary cat likea mountain lion kind of cougar
that has big yellow eyes and youknow the legend is like if you
hear it scream you'll die.
Speaker 1 (23:53):
Interesting.
That clarifies part of yourbook for me.
Speaker 2 (23:56):
I was like what is that?
Yeah?
Speaker 1 (23:59):
um, I didn't realize they were all called like
cryptids.
Speaker 2 (24:02):
Yeah yeah, so that's kind of like the umbrella term
for all of them.
So so in my book, the, there'sthis dimension where all of
these seven queens rule and theycome into our world, which I
call Gaia in the book, but theyappear differently.
They kind of appear close towhat their sacred animal is.
So the queen in the dimensionin my book it's called Aurelia.
(24:25):
She's like a cat queen.
She has kind of a cat body,like a thundercat kind of thing,
and then when she comes intoour world we kind of see her.
She changes form as the wampuscat.
Speaker 1 (24:41):
Okay, so and did you um?
Are any of your charactersbased off of people you know?
Speaker 2 (24:48):
they're mostly not.
I would say celine, my main isan eldest daughter, which I'm an
eldest daughter, and there's athing called eldest daughter
syndrome, where eldest daughterskind of feel responsible for
their family, kind of as thepeacekeeper, kind of making sure
everybody's kind of okay.
(25:08):
So that part of Selene'spersonality definitely came from
me.
And then other characters Ithink they're just kind of a lot
of just different like popculture, things that I liked,
things kind of you know broughttogether.
There's not really a specificcharacter, I would say that's
(25:28):
based on someone that I know,just kind of a mesh of lots of
different people.
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (25:34):
I feel like that's a good idea yeah, yeah yeah, you
don't want to be like, and thisis your character flaw right,
right, yeah, I wrote a wholecharacter about you, yeah.
I'm not passive-aggressive atall yeah and then the second
book is that about her sister.
Speaker 2 (25:49):
I feel so that'll be the third book, so the second
book is a continuation of thetwo main characters journey.
So the thing about romance isromance always has to end on a
happily ever after or happilyfor now.
So in the first book the femalemain character and the demon,
they, you know, have theirhappily ever after and then they
(26:10):
kind of say let's go to theunderworld where the demon is
from.
So the second book is kind ofwhat happens to them in the
underworld.
And I'm breaking a majorromance rule with this book
because it ends on a cliffhanger.
It doesn't end on a happilyever after.
So it's kind of like the EmpireStrikes Back, you know book in
the series.
And then the third book will beabout the sister and kind of
(26:34):
about what happens after thatcliffhanger Interesting.
Speaker 1 (26:38):
So what drew you to romance in the first place?
Speaker 2 (26:41):
So the thing thing I love about romance is it's about
when.
It's usually about women'sstories.
It's usually about they'reusually written for women,
they're usually written by womenand they're usually about women
getting everything they want.
So I feel like it's the mostkind of empowering genre of
(27:03):
fiction.
It's also since it has to endwith a happily ever after it's
women succeeding.
I think that was part of thereason why I got back into
romance.
Between high school and youknow kind of my 30s, I was
working in the kind of victimservices field.
I was hearing a lot of horrificstories about terrible things
(27:24):
that were happening to women andI just wanted an escape where
women won, where everything goodthings happened to women, women
and they overcame odds, youknow, or they overcame their own
weaknesses to find happinessyeah, I get that like I.
Speaker 1 (27:40):
I've kind of I'm not as much into like romance, but
I'll like some rom-com typeromance sure, yeah it was like
super light-hearted, whatever.
I listen to a lot of audiobooks, though and.
I have to say there's there areparts of romance books that
when you listen on audio it'slike this is interesting oh yeah
(28:01):
, I, yes, yes, agreed yeah.
I was.
I was like I'm not gonna listento this, while my roommates
yeah, yeah, but I did play himpart of a romance book and he
was like this is fascinating.
Anyway, my sister though.
She would always get romancenovels from the library when we
(28:22):
were in high school, andsometimes I'd read them and I'd
be like I'm not supposed to bereading this, yeah, yeah.
How have you found like thecommunity around romance novels?
Speaker 2 (28:33):
We have a great community here in Nashville.
It's a fairly new community.
I feel like kind of years ago alot of bookstores in the
Nashville area didn't carryromance.
I feel like sometimes peoplecan be a little bit snooty about
romance.
There's kind of this stereotypethat it's trashy, it's not
really a book.
Yeah, that it's trashy.
Speaker 1 (28:54):
you know that really.
Speaker 2 (28:55):
Yeah, it's not real literature, that sort of thing.
But I think with, uh, you know,there's a series of books
called a court of thorns androses.
Speaker 1 (29:04):
I'm familiar okay good, I haven't read them yet,
but I think Mariana on our firstepisode might haveAR.
Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2 (29:13):
So when that got famous, I think it was kind of
TikTok that that brought it, youknow kind of Definitely see
that, yeah, Kind of brought it.
And then fourth wing, which is,you know, which came out a
couple of years ago, which islike fantasy romance.
Speaker 1 (29:26):
Oh, is that different .
Speaker 2 (29:27):
Yeah, yeah, so they're two different.
Why was that?
Yeah, so ACOTAR is like fairiesand royal courts.
Speaker 1 (29:37):
And then Fourth Wing is dragons.
Different, yes, different yeah.
Speaker 2 (29:39):
So when those got popular, I feel like a lot of
especially younger women, likekind of women in their 20s, were
like romance.
This is great, I love this, andso that's what's kind of
brought it more mainstream,which is incredible.
And then here in Nashville justrecently we've gotten several
romance only book trucks, umthat just yeah, like trucks,
(30:02):
like like a trailer, that islike also a bookstore, that they
go around to different events,um which we never had that.
Speaker 1 (30:08):
I'd never like.
What kind of events are theygoing to?
Speaker 2 (30:11):
they just like will park up someplace and you can
just come and shop and find abook.
Speaker 1 (30:17):
Yeah, I've never seen these.
Speaker 2 (30:19):
It's really cool, yeah.
So all that's going on, andthen I run a romance writers
meetup through the porch.
That's just kind of startedrecently.
That's just for you know.
We just get together everyother month and sometimes we
have like a specific topic thatwe talk about, or sometimes we
just write together.
Sometimes it's nice to justhave someone just to write with
(30:41):
them.
When you're a writer and youdon't know a lot of other
writers, it's hard for peoplethat aren't writers to kind of
understand the struggle and kindof understand what your life is
like as a writer.
Speaker 1 (30:52):
Yeah, I think my friends and I.
This is a while ago I did theNana Rhymo challenge which is
like right, is it 50,000?
Words in November, yep, so Ihad some friends that we used to
do like write-alongs and stuffokay so that was always fun
because it's like you're working, but you can take a moment yeah
(31:13):
, whatever, yeah um the.
That writing never saw thelight of day, which well.
I think okay yeah, like I feellike I don't know if I'll ever
put my writing out there.
It's a lot, it's like for meand it's just like a way to
express myself, but it doesn'tneed to go anywhere and.
I think that's what.
Speaker 2 (31:31):
That's sufficient for me yeah, what I get out of it,
that's yeah, I like it, that'stotally okay yeah, absolutely so
, um, okay, uh, what are youdoing differently with your
second book?
Speaker 1 (31:41):
like that you maybe learned from your first book and
you're like yeah.
Speaker 2 (31:45):
So that's a great question.
So with my first book I feltlike when it got hard, I did a
lot.
I looked a lot of out likeexternal sources, like well,
this is hard, maybe I need tobuy a new writing book or a new
keyboard or a new desk chair ortake a class, something like
(32:06):
that, something, anything tojust push through the hard stuff
.
And with this book I've kind ofrealized, like it's just your
butt in the seat, that's thesecret to it.
It's not anything external likeall that stuff can help.
But to really get it done, it'sputting in the hours of doing
it, it's finding time during theday, it's not waiting to.
(32:28):
Oh, I kind of feel like I'm alittle inspired.
I'll write today.
It's kind of setting a schedule.
Like I'm a little inspired,I'll write today.
It's kind of setting a schedule.
I'm going to write, you know,one hour a day or even just 10
minutes a day, just somethingconsistent.
Speaker 1 (32:41):
Yeah, and did you experience writer's block at any
point?
Yeah, oh yeah, absolutely.
What did you do to combat that?
Speaker 2 (32:47):
So there's a lot of different things I tried.
One thing that I like to do isto write a journal entry as my
character.
That kind of helps me focus inon what's happening.
What are they feeling, what arethey hoping for, what are they
wanting to happen?
I'll do that.
Sometimes I'll just skip ahead.
(33:08):
I'm not the type of writer thatstarts at page one and just
writes until the end.
Sometimes I'm like, okay, Iknow, I want this scene to
happen towards the end of thebook.
I'm just going to write thatnow and then I'll connect the
rest up later.
Speaker 1 (33:23):
That's a good idea, because it's like if you're just
stuck on this one thing you'rejust going to keep coming back
to it.
Speaker 2 (33:29):
Yeah, you might as well get some other work done,
and it may be garbage.
Speaker 1 (33:39):
You may not even use that scene, but sometimes just
writing, just getting your headin a different mindset in a
different place can help, and soyou ended up doing the self
publishing route.
Uh huh, I did.
Can you tell me more about howyou ended up getting there?
Speaker 2 (33:48):
Yeah, so I did so.
When you try to gettraditionally published it's
called querying, so it's, youknow, kind of sending your work
out to agents and you knowpublishers.
And I did that for a while andit was right before the kind of
the ACOTAR fourth wing thing hit.
So my timing wasn't the best.
(34:09):
I got told a lot that fantasy.
I got told fantasy romancewasn't a thing.
I got told paranormal romancewasn't a thing.
I got told paranormal romanceis not really popular anymore,
like that happened in twilighttimes and now it's over.
Speaker 1 (34:22):
I was trying to think I'm like wait, when did that
happen?
Speaker 2 (34:24):
yeah, yeah, so kind of around then so I got kind of
told that and I I felt like, no,this, I know there's a market
for this, I know people want toread this.
So I kind of felt like I'm notwaiting for them, for the
publishers to get it, I'm justgonna do it myself.
So that's kind of how.
So when you're an indie author,you do everything yourself.
(34:46):
You do all your marketing, youupload your book to Amazon and
then Amazon it.
If someone orders a paperbackcopy and sends it to you, you do
all your.
You know your social media, allthat kind of stuff which is
hard, is a lot of work.
But then also you get more ofthe money that you make goes to
(35:07):
you rather than a publisher.
Speaker 1 (35:09):
Were you, I mean, was social media marketing like a
challenge that you had to learn?
Yeah, yeah, it was.
It was a real, a real challengefor me.
I mean, was social mediamarketing like a challenge that
you had to learn?
Speaker 2 (35:14):
Yeah, yeah, it was a real challenge for me.
I mean one thing that like whenI first started I did a lot of
marketing just like it's a bookabout a sexy demon and it's fun.
I did a lot of stuff just aboutlike the external plot line.
But it wasn't until I changedkind of my style and I said you
(35:35):
know, this is a book about awoman with eldest daughter
syndrome.
That's when it hit.
Like that's when it got a lotmore popular.
It's like when people could seethemselves in a character and
wanted to read about a character.
That was that was moresuccessful for me.
Speaker 1 (35:51):
Who, would you say, your typical reader is?
Speaker 2 (35:53):
I would say definitely somebody over 30.
That was kind of another thingthat I realized.
I didn't really even thinkanything about it.
But my, you know, my maincharacter is 30.
And there's I would kind of putthat in my marketing as well
like a 30 year old, you know,main character with eldest
daughter syndrome.
That falls for a smut readingdemon um and reading.
(36:15):
Yeah, he loves smut um but yeah, because a lot, because there's
a lot of fantasy romance wherethe main character's 19 yeah, I
have an issue with that yeah,like I've always felt I don't
know.
Speaker 1 (36:27):
Twilight I, I read twilight I enjoyed reading
twilight.
I was probably that age aboutbut like I mean, there's like a
lot of stalkerish tendencies inthat book and she's so young and
suddenly she's becoming likeimmortal forever and ever with
this guy who is actually like ahundred years older right right,
(36:48):
I'm sorry, I have an issue withthat whole concept of like, but
that is not what we hear about.
Yeah, but yeah.
So I'm like I feel like someonein their 30s still wouldn't
want to be immortal but it'smore yeah yeah.
Speaker 2 (37:02):
So I feel like my ideal reader would be a woman in
her 30s, um, maybe an oldestdaughter doesn't have to be
someone that maybe kind ofstruggles with a lot of people
pleasing tendencies, which iswhat kind of what my main
character kind of gets over, um,and then someone who likes a
hero that's not toxic but willalso shocking he beat somebody
(37:26):
up for you, like, yeah, tortureyour ex in the underworld if he
has to okay, I don't want toforget to ask you this because I
feel like I'm very interestedDo you ever feel awkward knowing
that family and friends arereading a romance book that you
wrote with like sex scenes andstuff that you wrote?
100% yes.
Speaker 1 (37:45):
How do you handle that?
Speaker 2 (37:46):
It's awful it's, it's I don't know it's.
I think I'm more worried aboutit than they are.
I mean, they know that's partof the deal with writing romance
, that's just how it goes.
But it just feels likeembarrassing and just it just
feels.
It just feels really weird andit's been hard for me to deal
(38:07):
with that Cause it's like I'm asex positive feminist.
You know, it's like I.
I think this is great, but it'sjust just knowing.
Like, yeah, the people in mylife are reading this and it's
tough, but you got to pushthrough it.
I mean, that's what one of thethings I think I said in this
class is like when you'rewriting spicy scenes, don't
(38:28):
think about your grandma readingthis oh gosh Like just put it
out there.
Speaker 1 (38:32):
Yeah, yeah, we don't want to think about our grandma.
No, you also talked about, likethe Enneagram and how you use
that for like motivation.
I find the Enneagram veryinteresting, so can you tell me
more about that?
Sure, yeah.
Speaker 2 (38:48):
So I use.
So I yeah, I love the Enneagramtoo and I use it for characters
, so I kind of figure, so itkind of gives me like a
blueprint of what thischaracter's, what their fears,
what their hopes are, what theirmotivations are.
So sometimes when I'm writing acharacter I'll know right away
like, oh, you know, my main, mydemon character, he's a four,
(39:09):
he's very, he's a tortured, youknow, artist kind of that's kind
of personality.
But then with other characterswhere I'm not sure, sometimes I
will just take a test, anEnneagram test, as them like
kind of pick the answers that Ithink my character will pick.
And I've been surprisedsometimes, like I'm sure that
they're one number, but thenwhen I get the results back it's
(39:30):
like oh no, they're actually asix or whatever.
Speaker 1 (39:33):
Yeah, which the Enneagram is.
I think it's interestingbecause it it is a personality
test.
It's about like motivations andwhy someone's doing something.
Um, but I think, for in reallife, it's like you don't want
to be, like it's an excuse orwhatever, but I do think it
could be really helpful of likeoh, I don't think this way,
(39:55):
Cause I'm not that, but how do Iget?
Speaker 2 (39:57):
this character to be thinking this way.
Yeah, and it helps.
I think it helps me beconsistent with their reactions.
So I'm not kind of messing up.
You know that I kind of forgetlike, well, this isn't really
their, their character wouldn'treact this way.
But it's like I can kind ofstay like oh, a six would react
this way, or whatever.
Speaker 1 (40:16):
Yeah, I thought I think I'm remembering this right
that your main characteridentifies as an well, she.
I'm using Enneagram.
Yeah, she's a nine.
Speaker 2 (40:24):
She's a nine yeah, so my female main character is a
nine, so she's very much kind ofa people pleaser, kind of um.
You know she doesn't likeconflict.
She doesn't, you know, wants toavoid any kind of tension yeah
and then my main character is avengeance demon who kind of gets
really mad and really full ofrage when people are kind of
(40:45):
doing things they're notsupposed to.
So they kind of clash with himkind of going over the top with
his confrontation and rage andthen, she kind of needs to learn
to kind of stand up for herselfand fight for herself.
Speaker 1 (40:59):
Do you mind if I ask what you identify?
Speaker 2 (41:01):
as Sure, I'm a one, you're a one, yeah, so I'm very.
Speaker 1 (41:05):
Can you remind me what that is?
Speaker 2 (41:06):
Yeah, so one is uh, we're very hard on ourselves.
We want things to be donecorrectly, we want things to be
done, um, in the right way.
We're very efficient and kindof like we like rules, but only
if they make sense.
So we get get really mad, likewhen people don't return their
cart at the grocery store, likethat sort of thing really sets
(41:29):
us off yeah, yeah, what are?
What are you?
What's your?
Do you know what your enneagramis?
Speaker 1 (41:33):
a nine oh, a nine.
Oh, okay, okay, you aired allmy dirty.
Yeah, I did I did.
Speaker 2 (41:39):
Yeah, does that?
Does that ring true for you all?
Speaker 1 (41:41):
that it does, I've definitely struggled with, like
the people-pleasing um conflictlike I can.
So I wing eight, okay, whichwhen I first took the Enneagram
test, there was something goingon in my life where it came out
as an eight and I was like thisI don't think this is right yeah
um, but I'm I'm gonna say I hada relationship that was with an
(42:07):
Enneagram four a guy thatidentified as a four, and I
remember being in your class andbe like, oh god, this is so
accurate.
Speaker 2 (42:15):
Yeah, um, but I've definitely struggled with
speaking up for myself inrelationships, so I did identify
with how you're yeah, well see,I'm a one wing nine oh, so that
?
Speaker 1 (42:26):
oh yeah, so I get that.
I totally get when you'rewriting, because that was kind
of I was wondering how did itfeel writing from that
perspective?
Speaker 2 (42:32):
yeah, I mean it was easy because it was kind of like
I know how this feels, I knowhow this, how this goes um yeah.
Speaker 1 (42:40):
I want to do like a whole episode on Enneagram and I
was really into it a few yearsago and I'd have to kind of like
brush up on it but it's, Ithink it's.
Speaker 2 (42:47):
It's a tool, but it's not like an excuse or yeah,
yeah, whatever you can't saylike well, I'm always late
because I'm a seven, like that'snot, that's not cool.
Yeah like yeah, we're notfriends right, yeah, I am not
late, yeah yeah, so what wouldyou?
Speaker 1 (43:04):
any advice that you would give to somebody who's
like I have always wanted towrite a book, but it feels like
harder I start and I can'tfinish, yep.
Speaker 2 (43:13):
So my kind of my go-to advice and I feel like it
sounds kind of cliche like juststart, but do.
Just start, but don't be afraidto write bad, just write
garbage to start with.
Write as terribly as you want,don't use complete sentences,
(43:33):
break all the grammar rules,just get it out and then you can
go back and make it better.
That's the thing that I thinkholds a lot of people back is
they feel like even with and Iwas like this too like I spent
weeks thinking about the firstline of my book because that you
know your first line has allthis, you know it needs to grab
people and it needs to do this,and it was like I didn't do
(43:55):
anything else but that.
So just start writing terriblyand also build a consistent
practice.
Like you don't have to write.
You know there's like advice,like write every day, you don't
have to do that.
But I do think it's good if youcan carve out 10 minutes every
day to just think about yourbook.
Just, maybe you're writing,maybe you're brainstorming,
(44:18):
maybe you're researching.
I think 10 minutes six days aweek is better than one hour one
day a week.
Speaker 1 (44:25):
Do you find like taking an intentional day off is
helpful for you?
Speaker 2 (44:30):
yeah, so I really and that was something too with
being an author and being doingthe grant writing work where I'm
self-employed I would I reallyhad to train myself to take
weekends off yeah because I,because I kind of thought, well,
I'm, you know, I'm at home,like I might as well just do
some work, like it's right there.
But I really realized like Ithink, with your, with a
(44:53):
creative, with anything creative, I think you can do only about
four hours in a day.
Yeah, that's like the sweetspot.
Speaker 1 (45:02):
Yeah, I could see that and I I've tried to be very
intentional about taking a dayoff from honestly like anything
so like I.
Whether it's Saturday or Sunday, I don't really care, but it's
often like it's not that I'm notgonna do anything, but I'm not
gonna plan anything, yeah.
And then it's like oh, I mightgo for a hike.
Or a friend is like hey, wantto grab coffee.
(45:24):
And I'm like, yeah, sure, let'sgo, but it's always like don't
work, Don't have like thepressure of like you have to get
this thing done and it's veryrefreshing and renewing.
Speaker 2 (45:36):
Yeah, and I think once you go back to work you're
better at it.
You can do it more efficientlyafter that break.
Speaker 1 (45:44):
Okay, so is there anything else you'd like to
share before I move us along?
Speaker 2 (45:48):
um, I don't think so.
I think I'm, I think I'm goodyeah cool, so I had.
Speaker 1 (45:54):
This is a random thought that I've been thinking
about because I've been tryingto declutter my house, okay, and
I have like multiple drawersthat are just dedicated to like
orphan courts, okay, yeah andI've definitely gotten rid of
the stuff related to them, butI'm like paranoid that one of
them is going to be like the oneright, yeah, do you experience
(46:15):
this we have a box of cords atour house.
Speaker 2 (46:19):
Yeah, and it's just random cords and it's.
I think we have that.
I have a problem more with likecraft supplies, like just
random boxes, like I might needthis.
You know, one inch piece ofribbon one day, so I need to
save that.
So, yeah, I totally get that.
I have that with yarn toobecause I crochet, but I don't
(46:39):
crochet a lot and I'm like but Ispent money on it, it it's just
like this big thing.
Speaker 1 (46:44):
So I've actually started donating stuff to the
Animal Humane Society.
So I'm like crocheting with allthese old yarn pieces, this
horrible ugly blanket.
And then I just like bring itand they're like thank you so
much.
Speaker 2 (46:59):
Yeah, and the dogs love it.
Speaker 1 (47:00):
Yeah, the dogs love it.
Yeah, that's great.
Yeah, I think I need to setmyself a deadline on the cords,
though, and be like if youhaven't used anything out of
this drawer in like a year justthrow it away?
Speaker 2 (47:11):
yeah, I think so, because you can always buy a new
one too.
Speaker 1 (47:14):
Yeah, it's not that expensive.
Yeah, they're not thatexpensive.
Speaker 2 (47:17):
I know, but it's it's .
It's hard to like when you havethat moment like, oh, I should
have kept it.
Speaker 1 (47:21):
That's the worst feeling and I do that with my
closet a little bit of like.
I've heard that turn yourhangers.
Speaker 2 (47:29):
Oh, your hangers?
I've heard that too.
Yeah, and then after a year, ifyou haven't worn it like get
rid of it.
Speaker 1 (47:34):
Yeah yeah, I've never done that.
Speaker 2 (47:36):
It seems like a good idea yeah.
Speaker 1 (47:38):
I've never actually turned the hangers, but I do try
to go through and be like Idon't think you've worn this in
a year.
Speaker 2 (47:43):
Yeah, yeah, it's not going to change.
Speaker 1 (47:45):
You're going to look the same in it.
Speaker 2 (47:46):
Right, right.
So why are you holding it yeah?
Speaker 1 (47:49):
yeah, so what have you been obsessing over lately?
Speaker 2 (47:57):
I've been really into .
So there's a show it's a coupleyears ago on HBO Max.
It's called Undercover Underageand it's about this team of
like amazing women that goundercover as like teenage girls
and catch like abusers online,like online pedophiles.
Speaker 1 (48:19):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (48:20):
And they work with law enforcement and it's so
satisfying, it's like kind oflike to catch a predator.
But but it's just with thisteam of women that kind of know
the game, that kind of know it'sa reality show oh, wow it's a
real show, it's, it's the um,the it's with a non-profit,
that's it's called so.
So safe from safe from onlinesex abuse.
(48:42):
I think I, oh I just love it.
It's like that's.
That's like asking yourquestion about like, do any
characters based on real people?
Like sometimes the vengeancedemon in me comes out a little
bit, like that kind of like.
It's just so satisfying towatch these predators get taken
down.
So that's what I've beenwatching a lot of that lately
that sounds good.
Speaker 1 (49:02):
Is HBO.
It's on.
Speaker 2 (49:03):
HBO max yeah, okay.
Speaker 1 (49:05):
I've been watching big bang theory on there.
Oh, okay, that's where I'vebeen seeing the um sex in the
city yeah.
So, uh, what I'm obsessing overis my, my sister-in-law and my
mom both got new horses and Imet them for the first time over
the weekend or gosh, I've losttrack of time yeah, yeah, I was
(49:27):
in Minnesota last weekend and,like I, love them so much and.
I I grew up with horses.
I've done like um horse therapy.
But like my mom's horse, albert, is so fun and like he, he's
very green, he's six years oldand he's very playful, whereas
her, her um horse passed thiswinter unexpectedly and he was
(49:50):
super chill, like very serious.
But elbert is just like what'sgoing on and like checking out,
like looking himself in themirror and just very playful.
And then katie, she got three.
Joey is an old man and then,sully, salute to America, he's
thoroughbred.
He used to be a racing horsefrom Kentucky and then Patriot
(50:13):
they call him Pat, pat and Sullyloved me and I found his
scratching spots and he wasshowing me where to scratch him
and he was just stretching hisneck.
Speaker 2 (50:22):
Oh, that's so sweet.
You got your own equine therapyright there.
Speaker 1 (50:26):
Yeah, I'm like I love these guys, yeah, yeah that's
so fun I was.
I'm like wait, how do I govisit the horses more?
Yeah but my friend Philip saidI could come visit his parents
horses.
Oh, there you go, okay.
So yeah, um, do you have anyrecommendations for our audience
?
I do.
Speaker 2 (50:45):
It's totally random, but not book related at all, but
kind of crunchy Zen.
So I have tried every kind ofnatural deodorant that there is
and I the best one is actually alocal company.
It's called Little Seed Farmand their deodorant Like if
you're a person that wants to,you know, I I don't even know
(51:07):
what there's aluminum is bad foryou all there's all these
reasons that you're not supposedto know.
Speaker 1 (51:11):
I'm the person that wants to circle my dishes.
Okay, so little seed farm.
Speaker 2 (51:14):
Little seed is a local uh, I think they're based
in Lebanon, okay, and they dothis amazing um deodorant that
like works.
Speaker 1 (51:22):
Yeah so that's my, yeah, that's my.
Speaker 2 (51:25):
That's the key with saying it from the, you know
from any, everywhere, yeah.
Speaker 1 (51:28):
Yeah, it's like do these organic things work the
aluminum is definitely an issue.
Speaker 2 (51:33):
Right, right.
Speaker 1 (51:35):
We'll link to the recommendations.
Speaker 2 (51:37):
Yeah, I'll ask you to send me that yeah.
Speaker 1 (51:39):
I've definitely tried a couple and I'm like oh, these
don't 100% work, and they'renot cheap either.
Speaker 2 (51:44):
They're not cheap.
Speaker 1 (51:45):
So you're like testing.
Could these places like havethey should give like little
sample tests.
Speaker 2 (51:50):
They should.
Speaker 1 (51:50):
Yeah, that's a great idea, my recommendation I
brought, I'm going to casuallyreach down here and not let
there be a ton of silence.
So teas.
So one thing I've learned isthat there's stuff in teas that
you shouldn't be drinking.
So it's been kind of hard tolike find things that are
(52:12):
healthy, organic.
Um, this one I got from Target.
It's what is it?
Puka, I think that's how it'spronounced, but it's all natural
ingredients.
There's not even the naturalflavoring, cause we can go into
what's in natural flavoring, butwe'll pass on that now.
But I really like this.
Chamomile, vanilla and manukahoney.
Blissful calm.
Speaker 2 (52:33):
Yum, that sounds good , I like it.
Speaker 1 (52:35):
I'm trying to quit my coffee but clearly that's not
working.
And then this one, telka.
This is from Australia.
Okay, I love this tea.
I've been drinking it for a fewyears.
This one's a lavender moon forblessed sleep, ooh.
But you do have to order prettywell ahead of time.
Especially around Christmastime, this gets very delayed,
okay, but I love this tea.
Speaker 2 (52:57):
So good, the tin is adorable, I know it's from
Australia Because again, theyhave better regulations.
Right yeah, Australia Again theyhave better regulations, right,
yeah?
So what are you looking forwardto this week?
So this week, so my new booklaunches and I'm having a zoom
launch party for it.
So that's happening this week.
(53:18):
So readers from all over theworld are registering and then
I'm going to do a little readingon the book and then also my my
first book, I'm Unbound byShadows, came out in audiobook
recently and I'm gonna have thenarrator on the zoom call and
kind of, we're gonna talktogether.
So, yeah, I'm excited aboutthat.
Speaker 1 (53:37):
That's really fun.
Speaker 2 (53:38):
Yeah, I, I like try to promote it, but that's okay,
yeah, yeah this isn't coming outtill after, but when it comes
in august, I'm also having anin-person book launch party in
nashville.
Speaker 1 (53:50):
What do you know?
Speaker 2 (53:51):
what date and time it's august 13th, it'll be at
honey tree meadery and becausethere's hellhounds in this next
book, I'm working with wags andwalks who are bringing puppies I
love them to the event.
Yeah, so it's.
There's a on my Instagram atAvalon underscore Griffin.
There's a link in my bio to forall the details of the
(54:13):
in-person release.
Speaker 1 (54:14):
Okay, We'll share your Instagram.
I was like what's that called?
Speaker 2 (54:18):
Yeah, yeah, we'll share that.
Speaker 1 (54:20):
Yeah, I'm like, as I asked you what you're looking
forward to.
Speaker 2 (54:24):
yeah, I'm like as I asked you what you're looking
forward to, I was like wait,what am I?
I don't even.
I didn't even think about this?
Speaker 1 (54:28):
what am I looking forward to?
Um, I'm prepared just relaxing.
Yes, yeah, I am actually reallylooking forward to.
I have cranial sacral massagethis afternoon, which is always
like very helpful, verydifferent massage from like a
normal massage, um, um.
But I am really looking forwardto it cause it really helps my
(54:49):
neck and my head and everything.
Speaker 2 (54:50):
So that's what I'm excited about.
Speaker 1 (54:53):
Well, um, you shared where we could find you and
we'll definitely link to that.
Thank you so much for beinghere.
Speaker 2 (54:59):
Thank you for having me.
Speaker 1 (55:00):
Yeah, yeah, and we'll um, um, look forward to having
your book come out and yeah.
So thank you for listening tomy crunchy zen era.
Um, please tune in next week.
Thanks for listening to mycrunchy zen era.
Please subscribe and leave areview wherever you listen to
your podcasts.
This podcast is produced by me,nicole swisher and my good
(55:22):
friends summer Harkup and LizColter, editing is by Drew
Harrison Media and recording isdone by Lagos Creative in
Nashville, tennessee.
Thanks for hanging out.
We'll be back next week.
Welcome to my Crunchy Zen Era.
I'm your host, Nicole Swisher.
My guest today is SarahHolifield.
She writes as Avalon Griffin.
Speaker 2 (00:18):
Welcome, thank you.
Thank you for having me.
I'm excited to be here.
Speaker 1 (00:21):
Same.
What's something crunchy or zenthat you've done lately?
Speaker 2 (00:27):
I recently got one of those spiky acupressure mats.
I had one once.
I love it.
Like they had it at Aldi theyhad it at Aldi on sale and I
just saw so many people like I'man Aldi Facebook group, like
fans of Aldi.
People loved it and I was like,well, it's like nine bucks, I'm
(00:47):
just going to get it.
And it's real spicy at firstwhen you lay down, but then it's
like something happens and youjust go into the zone and I love
it.
Speaker 1 (00:57):
It's great.
Did yours have like the pillowpart too?
Speaker 2 (01:00):
Yeah, it has the pillow.
So at first I did it like witha t-shirt on.
Yeah, I had to work up to likebare skin.
But you're doing a bare skin.
Yeah, how long have you hadthis?
A couple months, wow.
I only do it for like 10minutes, but it's like, I don't
know, something happens whereit's.
I don't know if it's like yourendorphins kick in, but it's
like you, it's real spicy atfirst, like I said, but then it
(01:22):
kind of gets to like this zenzone, a crunchy zen zone, yeah,
like after I don't know aboutlike two or three minutes.
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (01:30):
I wonder if it's kind of like when you first start
doing like saunas or like coldplunges yeah, it could be like
that.
Yeah, it could be yeah, Iordered one from Amazon.
This was years ago and I'mgonna be honest, I don't think I
ever used it.
You need to try it and I'vebeen on a purge and I just
brought it together.
Oh no, I'm sad, I would havetried it oh, shoot, okay, but I
think I like put my hands on it.
Speaker 2 (01:50):
I was like no, don't do that.
Yeah, no, I think it's likeit's like the whole, like your
body weight, like it kind ofdistributes the spikiness of it
a little bit, okay, and what itlooks like for our listeners,
viewers.
Speaker 1 (02:03):
It's like a mat that you lay out on the ground and it
has spikes, little littleplastic spikes, spikes, yeah.
And then there's like a head,that uh pillow that would go
like at your neck right, andit's supposed to hit the um
pressure, not pressure points,what is it called?
Speaker 2 (02:19):
it's like the acupressure points.
I don't know if it really doesthat, but yeah, just the, just
the spikiness of it, and it alsokind of draws all your
attention to your back.
That's like on fire for alittle bit.
So yeah, I've really enjoyed it.
Speaker 1 (02:32):
I could see it like because I have done acupuncture
and I love acupuncture.
Okay, I just find it hard tokeep up with.
Yeah, sure, that is verycrunchy, yeah, so if you could
relive any memory, what would itbe and why?
Speaker 2 (02:49):
Okay, I think so years ago, probably 2023.
So I'm a huge fan of the GoldenGirls and in 2023, they had
their first Golden Girl fanconvention in Chicago that I
went to with my best friend.
It was two days and it hadworkshops that had, like,
(03:10):
blanche's sister spoke andEstelle Getty's assistant and
Bea Arthur's assistant, but atthe end they had all of us in
this big auditorium.
It was probably 3,000 peopleand we all sang thank you for
being a friend together and thenthe woman, the original singer
of the of the theme song, cameout and sang and it was just
(03:31):
this amazing, stupid moment oflike all these, all the girls
and gays here to see the goldengirl convention, we're just all
singing confetti drop from theceiling.
It was just just so much fun.
Speaker 1 (03:43):
That sounds great.
I feel like those memorieswhere you're in a group that
it's like it's this, it's justthis thing that you love and you
just feel that energy and you,it's just so fun to be like
hokey and kitschy and just yeah,there's, there are no stakes
here, like it's right, yeah,yeah.
Speaker 2 (04:01):
We just embrace it, like what we have in common.
Is we like this show from the80s?
Yeah and yeah, it was a lot offun.
Speaker 1 (04:08):
I like that.
I don't.
I haven't gone to like a lot ofconventions about things that I
really like, um, but I am goingto a Bigfoot convention in a
few weeks.
Speaker 2 (04:19):
Oh my gosh, there will definitely.
That will be very interesting.
Yes, absolutely, I find itfascinating.
I can't wait to hear about that.
Speaker 1 (04:26):
Yes, um, all right, so I do a little grab bag.
Okay, I feel like I should getlike a pretty bag and I just
haven't okay, but I'm gonna dothis.
Let's see what we got oh wait,okay, I've got to start putting
these aside.
Speaker 2 (04:40):
I've done that one twice, so we're not doing that
one.
Speaker 1 (04:43):
Okay, I'm getting better at this.
I think, oh, perfect for you.
What's the last book, movie orTV show you hated?
Did you finish it?
Oh my gosh, I said perfect foryou before I finished reading
that sentence.
Speaker 2 (04:57):
I thought it was like you loved.
Speaker 1 (04:59):
I was like oh.
Speaker 2 (05:00):
I hate it.
I tried to watch the new Sexand the City and Just Like that
that has been so manycommercials for that I can't do
it.
Is it a show or a movie?
It's a show, it is, andSamantha's not in it, so it's
just Carrie, miranda andCharlotte.
I watched the first season.
I tried to watch the secondseason and it's just bad.
(05:24):
I don't know.
They've just changed thecharacters.
They have silly storylines.
It's not good, it's sad yeah, Iuh.
Speaker 1 (05:33):
So Sex and the City was a show that I wasn't
supposed to watch, but it was onreruns when I was probably high
school or middle school and myparents finally let me have a tv
in my room.
I think it was black and whiteoh no okay, and I would secretly
like watch sex in the city, soI have like fond memories of
that yeah but then I, I don'tknow.
I was like are they, is thislike a whole show that they're
(05:55):
redoing?
And so I'm disappointed to hearthat yeah, but I have not had
the urge to watch it so good toknow.
Um, all right.
So, sarah, yes, we met, becauseI took a romance novel writing
class at the porch in Nashvilleand you were my teacher.
I was, and it was very fun andas, as you were talking about,
(06:16):
like the golden girls conferenceI was thinking about, I feel
like you talked about going tosome conferences- and part of
what I loved about the class isthat everyone there was very
like passionate about writingand I just feel like you don't
get around a lot of people whohave something like this or I
don't.
Maybe other people do have ashared passion.
(06:38):
It's just like so fun andinspiring to see that yeah.
Yeah, so you wrote a book.
Speaker 2 (06:47):
I did yes.
Speaker 1 (06:48):
So I called it.
Speaker 2 (06:49):
So I write romance under the pen name Avalon
Griffin, and I wrote theparanormal romance unbound by
shadows, and I've just finishedthe sequel to dwell in shadows,
um, which comes out next weeknext week being July.
Speaker 1 (07:04):
July 17th, 17th, okay , this is going to come out
August.
I think.
I said like 7th or something.
Great, that'll be perfect,it'll be out, yeah, cool.
And so when did you decide towrite a book, to start writing?
Speaker 2 (07:17):
So I think I've always I've always been
interested in writing.
I you know, at school peopletell me I'm a great writer, you
know I'm so creative, that sortof thing.
But I think I never took itseriously because I thought it
was be too hard and I alsothought, well, you can't really
make money, so who cares, whyshould you do it?
And then it just kind of got tothe point where I just felt
(07:40):
like I had to do something withwriting.
It just kind of wouldn't leaveme alone.
So I started doing creativenonfiction and then I was also
reading a lot of romance.
I've always read romance, likesince high school I had a Fabio
birthday cake in high school.
Speaker 1 (07:56):
I saw that on your Like in the 90s yeah.
Speaker 2 (08:00):
I've been a longtime romance reader and I just had
this.
I was reading a lot ofhistorical fiction and the kind
of the paranormal romance thatwas that used to be at would be
just kind of vampires, maybe alittle bit of witches, maybe
some ghosts once in a while, andI was really interested in
demons.
So I had this idea of like kindof a fish out of water, like a
(08:23):
woman goes to another dimension,meets a demon there who woman
goes to another dimension, meetsa demon there who's also from
another dimension, and I justfelt like I need to write this
story or it's going to keepbugging me.
So I just kind of started, realsimple, like I didn't know what
I was doing at all.
I went to a conference inAtlanta for romance doing at all
(08:47):
.
I went to a conference inAtlanta for romance just a
romance convention with readersand writers and I took a romance
writers boot camp and that'swhat kind of just set me on this
path of like okay, I'm doingthis, this is what I'm going to
do.
But I still felt a little bitlike I was only kind of doing it
just a few hours every month.
I was kind of messing around alittle bit and I kind of felt
(09:07):
like if I really want to writethis book, I need to raise the
stakes for myself.
So I was in a job I didn't likeand I kind of thought I'm just
gonna live the dream and quit myjob to write a book.
And so I can't like I stillcan't believe I did that right
now, like that's what I did.
So I quit my job, I took abouta year off just just working on
(09:33):
the book and then I startedpicking up.
I have a background innonprofit, so then I started
picking up grant proposalwriting work.
So I was doing kind of halfwayfiction writing and then grant
writing and then that's kind ofbrought me to that's what,
pretty much what I do today.
Speaker 1 (09:50):
And so the job that you quit, like what were you
doing?
Speaker 2 (09:54):
So it was working in event planning, so it was like
planning events for rich people.
Speaker 1 (10:01):
Interesting.
So it's very different.
I don't know if I knew that,because I know now you do grant
writing which.
I'm like well, that's writing.
It goes along with what you'redoing so like when you were in,
say like middle school or highschool.
What job or what did youpicture yourself doing at this
time?
Speaker 2 (10:19):
When I was a kid, I wanted to be a vet.
Speaker 1 (10:21):
Oh, totally.
Speaker 2 (10:25):
I mean, you know, because I love cats.
Speaker 1 (10:26):
A cat-specific vet you know, oh, only cats, only
cats.
Yeah, I feel like that's.
I feel like my niece would dothat, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2 (10:33):
And then I think I don't.
I didn't really know what Iwanted to do.
My degree is in sociology andwomen's studies, so I wanted to
do something kind of with women,with empowerment, kind of that
sort of thing.
So really I got into thenonprofit field.
I worked kind of in the victimservices field.
(10:54):
I worked in health care, youdetails and kind of little,
figuring out lots of littlethings, kind of keeping track of
a lot of little things.
But it wasn't really what Iwanted.
It was sort of one of thosethings that like, once you, you
(11:17):
know you graduate college, youkind of take whatever first job
you can get.
Speaker 1 (11:20):
Oh yeah, yeah, and then you know it kind of.
Speaker 2 (11:23):
Then you know you don't like that job, so you take
this other job and it's notreally that great of a job.
And I just kind of went in thiscycle and then it kind of
realized, like in my mid to late30s, like is this it?
Like is this, this is my?
Speaker 1 (11:35):
this is being an adult, like yeah, and I don't
want to do this so, like whenyou started having like this
idea for the book, is that aboutthe timing of it mid to late
30s?
Speaker 2 (11:45):
yeah, yeah, so it was , um, so I quit my job.
I want to say I was 39, okay,and I think when I, when I in
our class, you know, when weworked together, I had everybody
go around the room and talkabout you know what they wanted
to do, I feel like everybodythere was like I want to write a
book before I'm 40.
So that was a pretty commontheme.
Did you, when did you?
Speaker 1 (12:06):
finish your book.
Speaker 2 (12:06):
I was.
I fit, well it's.
I finished it.
I finished writing it in 2020and then it was published in
2023, so there was a lot of inbetween of like editing.
I tried to query it to gettraditionally published and then
, when I decided to go theself-publishing route the indie
publishing all the work involvedin that took some time as well
(12:29):
so did you have a goal offinishing it by the time you're
40?
I just wanted to do it.
I didn't really have a reallyset goal, like I wasn't.
I wasn't disappointed when Iturned 40 and it wasn't done.
I just I felt good that I wason this path.
Um, I did.
I felt like it took me a lotlonger than I thought.
Like because I think that wasanother thing too is, what was
(12:50):
keeping me from writing the bookis I thought, well, I have this
job.
If I didn't have this job, thenI could just have all this time
, all right, eight hours a day.
And that didn't happen.
Speaker 1 (13:00):
So, with quitting your job, how did you support
yourself for a year?
Speaker 2 (13:05):
if you do you mind me asking, no, I uh my husband was
working a job that paid verywell at the time, which was
great, and then we also had alot of savings.
So because I feel like would.
Speaker 1 (13:18):
Would you tell aspiring authors to do the same?
No, okay, I don't think I wantto clarify.
Speaker 2 (13:24):
No, not at all no, this is not writing advice.
Quit your job, and you knowthat's the only way you can
write a book.
Not at all.
That was just.
It was just something for me.
Like I said, I felt I had toraise the stakes, I had to make
it a little bit scary for me.
I had to get rid of all myexcuses for not writing and was
part of quitting your job.
Speaker 1 (13:44):
It wasn't.
I don't want to put words inyour mouth but, but I'm going to
try, okay.
So it wasn't just about writingthe book, was it?
Was it also about the fact thatyou were in this job, that
you're like, how did I get hereand I need a reset, or what?
Yeah, a reset, that's a greatway of putting it.
Yeah, it was it was a reset.
Speaker 2 (14:01):
That's a great way of putting it.
Yeah, it was.
It was a reset.
It was a not just kind ofreacting to whatever job I could
get.
It was more being in thedriver's seat for my life and my
career and figuring out what Iwant to do, where I want to go
and how I want to do it.
Yeah, I.
Speaker 1 (14:23):
I can relate to that because I've I English major
yeah, great life, yeah, yeah andstarting like my first job it
was like I, it was 2009 and Iwas like I just need a job.
And then I went to law schoolbecause I was like, well, now
what do I do?
And so I've been on this pathof like being in like big law
(14:45):
firms, and then, when I moved toNashville, I was at a firm for
four weeks or four weeks thatwould have been even better four
months solid four months and Iquit without a job and it was
just not a fit and it felt likea reset.
And then I moved into working atthese smaller firms that are a
much better fit.
But it was again.
(15:06):
I wouldn't recommend that foranyone, but for me it was very
empowering.
Yeah Of like, yeah.
For me it was also like God'sgot me, like I'm going to be
fine, but just having that likepull the plug, this is not in
alignment with my values or what, where I wanted to be.
Speaker 2 (15:24):
Yeah, so yeah, and it's great and it's like it's,
it's scary and it and it's.
You know, I felt like I hadpeople in my life.
They're like, what are youdoing?
But I, just for me, I felt likeI'm just gonna jump.
And then it turned out reallygood, Like it, and there was
light at the end of the tunneland it turned out okay.
Speaker 1 (15:43):
Yeah, and so one of my goals for this year was to
even just start a podcast.
And I feel like you know, you,it's like what is the goal?
Is it to finish a book at acertain time, or is it to just
start the process?
And so it's like is it for me,like I don't know, having a
(16:03):
certain amount of listeners, or?
Speaker 2 (16:05):
is it?
Speaker 1 (16:05):
just the fact that I started this thing that I've
wanted to for years Did you feelthat of like you.
It was just a big thing tostart.
Speaker 2 (16:15):
Yeah, I was scared, I had this fear that I would die
without having written a bookbecause I was too scared die
without having written a bookbecause I was too scared and I
felt like I didn't want.
I didn't want to live with thatregret and that feeling of like
I could have written a book,only I didn't try hard enough, I
didn't have enough courage, Ididn't, um, really put myself to
(16:37):
it.
So that was, it was more for me, just doing it.
And then, even when it was done, even when the book was done, I
always thought I'd had thismoment of like I did it and I
never really did because therewas so many other steps to do,
there were so many other thingsto learn.
And it wasn't until now thatI've completed the second book,
(16:58):
that I sort of had that momentthat I didn't just write one
book, I wrote two books.
Speaker 1 (17:03):
Yeah, and I mean, did you like the process of it?
I?
Speaker 2 (17:07):
did.
I would say this is I don't saythis to discourage aspiring
writers, but writing the book isthe easiest part.
Really it's the rest of it, themarketing, the figuring out how
to connect with your readers.
It's, you know, doing yoursocial media Like that's, that's
the hard part.
Speaker 1 (17:27):
I've always found writing hard.
It is hard, it is yeah.
One thing you said in the classthat I liked a lot was that
people assume I'm going tobutcher this.
Speaker 2 (17:39):
So you that's okay, that's okay.
Speaker 1 (17:40):
People assume that you just know how to write and
you just write, but like witheverything, you learn that too.
Please rephrase that.
Yeah, that's okay.
People assume that you justknow how to write and you just
write, but like with everythingyou learn that too, please
rephrase that yeah, that's agreat point.
Speaker 2 (17:49):
I feel like writing is one of the things that people
kind of feel like well, I reada lot, so I should be able to
write a lot and I don't need totake any classes or read any
books about writing.
I should just be able to sitdown and just write a bestseller
and that any books aboutwriting.
I should just be able to sitdown and just write a bestseller
.
And it's not.
That's not how it works.
I think one of the one of thethings that stopped me or
(18:11):
discouraged me a lot when Ifirst started writing is I was
writing something and then Iwould compare that to a
published work, a published book, and be like well, my writing
is terrible, like I really suckWithout realizing like that
finished book had been throughwho knows how many drafts, how
many editors, how many tweaks,how many beta readers.
(18:35):
Like there's a whole bigprocess to get to that finished
product.
And so with writing, it's notjust you kind of sit down and do
it.
It's a lot of steps, it's a lotof drafts and it's different
for every person too.
That's kind of why it's reallya learn by doing process that
you just have to start doing itand start doing a lot of
(18:55):
different things.
There's a lot of people that say, well, don't you know, you just
write it all out really roughand then you don't edit as you
go.
And I tried to do that and Igot into a huge mess of plots
that I didn't want to follow.
And so the other, you know,because kind of the other side
of the coin is like edit as yougo, like you can do that.
There are some people that loveto do sprints, like they love
(19:16):
to set a timer I'm going towrite for 20 minutes and they
just go.
That doesn't work for me.
I'm more of a time person, likeI'm more of a.
I want to.
I'm sorry.
More of a, like a, I want tofinish this scene by today, that
sort of thing.
Speaker 1 (19:31):
Do you so?
Do you set yourself like wordcount goals, or is it really
just like?
This is the scene that I'mwriting.
Speaker 2 (19:36):
It's more the scene for me, but there's lots of
people that that do word countgoals yeah.
Speaker 1 (19:40):
And did, did you create an outline for either of
your?
Speaker 2 (19:43):
books, no.
So in kind of the writing world, people put themselves sort of
in two camps plotters andpantsers.
So plotters are more peoplethat kind of know exactly what's
going to happen.
They have a great outline andthen pantsers fly by the seat of
their pants, kind of just writeas they go.
In my life I'm very much aplotter.
(20:03):
I'm very organized, detailoriented, all that.
But in my writing I'm more of apantser, which is harder for me
, because it's like sometimesthere'll be scenes that I know
that'll happen but I don't knowwhat happens in between.
Speaker 1 (20:17):
Do you think part of that is because you're a planner
?
Speaker 2 (20:20):
Maybe.
Yeah, that's a good question,yeah that.
Yeah, maybe you just kind of, sothat you can just like let it
go and so yeah yeah, and thenbecause I found when I planned
my writing I overplanned andthen I was like cheating myself
out of that.
There's a there's sometimes,when you're writing, there's a
really kind of exciting thingthat happens when it's like you
(20:41):
have these loose ends that youdon't know how to fix and you
just get this lightning bolt ahamoment like oh my gosh, this is
how that happened.
And it's like when I wasplotting so much I wasn't
getting as many of those.
And then when I just kind oflet it go and just kind of let
it, you know see what happenedwhen I sat down to write.
Speaker 1 (21:00):
Then things fell into place more like I wanted and so
your book takes place inanother dimension, but they
start in Tennessee.
Yes, and the town?
What's the name of the townwhere they go?
Speaker 2 (21:13):
So it starts in.
So it's about a woman fromNashville who goes on a road
trip with her sister to Rugby,tennessee, which is this funny
little town.
Had you been there I had anddid that kind of inspire some of
that I did yeah, I was lookingfor it because I knew I wanted
the human character to kind offall into a portal somewhere in
Tennessee and I wanted someplace that felt a little odd a
(21:37):
little.
The veil is thin.
Speaker 1 (21:40):
What brought you there?
Speaker 2 (21:41):
A friend of mine had recommended it.
A friend of mine went there andstayed there.
So Rugby is this funny littletown like a Victorian utopia, is
kind of where it was.
It was what it was built to beand it still has a lot of the
same Victorian buildings.
But my husband and I went there.
We went in the winter, when itwas cold, when it was closed,
(22:04):
like it's only really open forthe summer, and we went there
and it was so eerily quiet.
Speaker 1 (22:09):
Weird.
Speaker 2 (22:10):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (22:11):
How far away is that?
Speaker 2 (22:12):
It's maybe like three hours hours.
It's kind of like it's in kindof Scott County, kind of like
north of like Crossville, okay Iknow where that.
Yeah, I was like there's aScott County yeah, yeah, I hope
that's the right county.
I haven't said like I haven'tsmirched rugby's name.
Yeah, yeah that's interesting.
Speaker 1 (22:31):
So there's probably hardly anyone that actually
lives.
Yeah, there's not any there's.
Speaker 2 (22:35):
I think there's less than 100 people that live there,
but in the kind of thesurrounding area there's,
there's some woods that leaddown to a place called the
gentleman swimming hole.
Oh, it's back in the day, justgentlemen only is there a lady?
Swimming hole not that I knowof but there is a witch's cave
down there.
Speaker 1 (22:54):
So when I found that, I was like that's my portal.
Speaker 2 (22:58):
So in that, so in the book I have, the main character
goes on a road trip with hersister.
They go on a hike in rugby, thesister kind of goes off to the
gentleman's swimming hole totake pictures, and the sis the
main character name is selenefalls through this portal, ends
up in a matriarchal society fullof ruled by seven queens who
(23:20):
are also cryptids, and thenfalls in love with a demon I
think you need to clarify whatcryptids, sure, so cryptids are
kind of urban mythology umbigfoot is a cryptid Mothman.
Jersey Devil In Tennessee.
The Wampus cat is kind of ourresident cryptid.
(23:40):
It's just a big scary cat likea mountain lion kind of cougar
that has big yellow eyes and youknow the legend is like if you
hear it scream you'll die.
Speaker 1 (23:53):
Interesting.
That clarifies part of yourbook for me.
Speaker 2 (23:56):
I was like what is that?
Yeah?
Speaker 1 (23:59):
um, I didn't realize they were all called like
cryptids.
Speaker 2 (24:02):
Yeah yeah, so that's kind of like the umbrella term
for all of them.
So so in my book, the, there'sthis dimension where all of
these seven queens rule and theycome into our world, which I
call Gaia in the book, but theyappear differently.
They kind of appear close towhat their sacred animal is.
So the queen in the dimensionin my book it's called Aurelia.
(24:25):
She's like a cat queen.
She has kind of a cat body,like a thundercat kind of thing,
and then when she comes intoour world we kind of see her.
She changes form as the wampuscat.
Speaker 1 (24:41):
Okay, so and did you um?
Are any of your charactersbased off of people you know?
Speaker 2 (24:48):
they're mostly not.
I would say celine, my main isan eldest daughter, which I'm an
eldest daughter, and there's athing called eldest daughter
syndrome, where eldest daughterskind of feel responsible for
their family, kind of as thepeacekeeper, kind of making sure
everybody's kind of okay.
(25:08):
So that part of Selene'spersonality definitely came from
me.
And then other characters Ithink they're just kind of a lot
of just different like popculture, things that I liked,
things kind of you know broughttogether.
There's not really a specificcharacter, I would say that's
(25:28):
based on someone that I know,just kind of a mesh of lots of
different people.
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (25:34):
I feel like that's a good idea yeah, yeah yeah, you
don't want to be like, and thisis your character flaw right,
right, yeah, I wrote a wholecharacter about you, yeah.
I'm not passive-aggressive atall yeah and then the second
book is that about her sister.
Speaker 2 (25:49):
I feel so that'll be the third book, so the second
book is a continuation of thetwo main characters journey.
So the thing about romance isromance always has to end on a
happily ever after or happilyfor now.
So in the first book the femalemain character and the demon,
they, you know, have theirhappily ever after and then they
(26:10):
kind of say let's go to theunderworld where the demon is
from.
So the second book is kind ofwhat happens to them in the
underworld.
And I'm breaking a majorromance rule with this book
because it ends on a cliffhanger.
It doesn't end on a happilyever after.
So it's kind of like the EmpireStrikes Back, you know book in
the series.
And then the third book will beabout the sister and kind of
(26:34):
about what happens after thatcliffhanger Interesting.
Speaker 1 (26:38):
So what drew you to romance in the first place?
Speaker 2 (26:41):
So the thing thing I love about romance is it's about
when.
It's usually about women'sstories.
It's usually about they'reusually written for women,
they're usually written by womenand they're usually about women
getting everything they want.
So I feel like it's the mostkind of empowering genre of
(27:03):
fiction.
It's also since it has to endwith a happily ever after it's
women succeeding.
I think that was part of thereason why I got back into
romance.
Between high school and youknow kind of my 30s, I was
working in the kind of victimservices field.
I was hearing a lot of horrificstories about terrible things
(27:24):
that were happening to women andI just wanted an escape where
women won, where everything goodthings happened to women, women
and they overcame odds, youknow, or they overcame their own
weaknesses to find happinessyeah, I get that like I.
Speaker 1 (27:40):
I've kind of I'm not as much into like romance, but
I'll like some rom-com typeromance sure, yeah it was like
super light-hearted, whatever.
I listen to a lot of audiobooks, though and.
I have to say there's there areparts of romance books that
when you listen on audio it'slike this is interesting oh yeah
(28:01):
, I, yes, yes, agreed yeah.
I was.
I was like I'm not gonna listento this, while my roommates
yeah, yeah, but I did play himpart of a romance book and he
was like this is fascinating.
Anyway, my sister though.
She would always get romancenovels from the library when we
(28:22):
were in high school, andsometimes I'd read them and I'd
be like I'm not supposed to bereading this, yeah, yeah.
How have you found like thecommunity around romance novels?
Speaker 2 (28:33):
We have a great community here in Nashville.
It's a fairly new community.
I feel like kind of years ago alot of bookstores in the
Nashville area didn't carryromance.
I feel like sometimes peoplecan be a little bit snooty about
romance.
There's kind of this stereotypethat it's trashy, it's not
really a book.
Yeah, that it's trashy.
Speaker 1 (28:54):
you know that really.
Speaker 2 (28:55):
Yeah, it's not real literature, that sort of thing.
But I think with, uh, you know,there's a series of books
called a court of thorns androses.
Speaker 1 (29:04):
I'm familiar okay good, I haven't read them yet,
but I think Mariana on our firstepisode might haveAR.
Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2 (29:13):
So when that got famous, I think it was kind of
TikTok that that brought it, youknow kind of Definitely see
that, yeah, Kind of brought it.
And then fourth wing, which is,you know, which came out a
couple of years ago, which islike fantasy romance.
Speaker 1 (29:26):
Oh, is that different .
Speaker 2 (29:27):
Yeah, yeah, so they're two different.
Why was that?
Yeah, so ACOTAR is like fairiesand royal courts.
Speaker 1 (29:37):
And then Fourth Wing is dragons.
Different, yes, different yeah.
Speaker 2 (29:39):
So when those got popular, I feel like a lot of
especially younger women, likekind of women in their 20s, were
like romance.
This is great, I love this, andso that's what's kind of
brought it more mainstream,which is incredible.
And then here in Nashville justrecently we've gotten several
romance only book trucks, umthat just yeah, like trucks,
(30:02):
like like a trailer, that islike also a bookstore, that they
go around to different events,um which we never had that.
Speaker 1 (30:08):
I'd never like.
What kind of events are theygoing to?
Speaker 2 (30:11):
they just like will park up someplace and you can
just come and shop and find abook.
Speaker 1 (30:17):
Yeah, I've never seen these.
Speaker 2 (30:19):
It's really cool, yeah.
So all that's going on, andthen I run a romance writers
meetup through the porch.
That's just kind of startedrecently.
That's just for you know.
We just get together everyother month and sometimes we
have like a specific topic thatwe talk about, or sometimes we
just write together.
Sometimes it's nice to justhave someone just to write with
(30:41):
them.
When you're a writer and youdon't know a lot of other
writers, it's hard for peoplethat aren't writers to kind of
understand the struggle and kindof understand what your life is
like as a writer.
Speaker 1 (30:52):
Yeah, I think my friends and I.
This is a while ago I did theNana Rhymo challenge which is
like right, is it 50,000?
Words in November, yep, so Ihad some friends that we used to
do like write-alongs and stuffokay so that was always fun
because it's like you're working, but you can take a moment yeah
(31:13):
, whatever, yeah um the.
That writing never saw thelight of day, which well.
I think okay yeah, like I feellike I don't know if I'll ever
put my writing out there.
It's a lot, it's like for meand it's just like a way to
express myself, but it doesn'tneed to go anywhere and.
I think that's what.
Speaker 2 (31:31):
That's sufficient for me yeah, what I get out of it,
that's yeah, I like it, that'stotally okay yeah, absolutely so
, um, okay, uh, what are youdoing differently with your
second book?
Speaker 1 (31:41):
like that you maybe learned from your first book and
you're like yeah.
Speaker 2 (31:45):
So that's a great question.
So with my first book I feltlike when it got hard, I did a
lot.
I looked a lot of out likeexternal sources, like well,
this is hard, maybe I need tobuy a new writing book or a new
keyboard or a new desk chair ortake a class, something like
(32:06):
that, something, anything tojust push through the hard stuff
.
And with this book I've kind ofrealized, like it's just your
butt in the seat, that's thesecret to it.
It's not anything external likeall that stuff can help.
But to really get it done, it'sputting in the hours of doing
it, it's finding time during theday, it's not waiting to.
(32:28):
Oh, I kind of feel like I'm alittle inspired.
I'll write today.
It's kind of setting a schedule.
Like I'm a little inspired,I'll write today.
It's kind of setting a schedule.
I'm going to write, you know,one hour a day or even just 10
minutes a day, just somethingconsistent.
Speaker 1 (32:41):
Yeah, and did you experience writer's block at any
point?
Yeah, oh yeah, absolutely.
What did you do to combat that?
Speaker 2 (32:47):
So there's a lot of different things I tried.
One thing that I like to do isto write a journal entry as my
character.
That kind of helps me focus inon what's happening.
What are they feeling, what arethey hoping for, what are they
wanting to happen?
I'll do that.
Sometimes I'll just skip ahead.
(33:08):
I'm not the type of writer thatstarts at page one and just
writes until the end.
Sometimes I'm like, okay, Iknow, I want this scene to
happen towards the end of thebook.
I'm just going to write thatnow and then I'll connect the
rest up later.
Speaker 1 (33:23):
That's a good idea, because it's like if you're just
stuck on this one thing you'rejust going to keep coming back
to it.
Speaker 2 (33:29):
Yeah, you might as well get some other work done,
and it may be garbage.
Speaker 1 (33:39):
You may not even use that scene, but sometimes just
writing, just getting your headin a different mindset in a
different place can help, and soyou ended up doing the self
publishing route.
Uh huh, I did.
Can you tell me more about howyou ended up getting there?
Speaker 2 (33:48):
Yeah, so I did so.
When you try to gettraditionally published it's
called querying, so it's, youknow, kind of sending your work
out to agents and you knowpublishers.
And I did that for a while andit was right before the kind of
the ACOTAR fourth wing thing hit.
So my timing wasn't the best.
(34:09):
I got told a lot that fantasy.
I got told fantasy romancewasn't a thing.
I got told paranormal romancewasn't a thing.
I got told paranormal romanceis not really popular anymore,
like that happened in twilighttimes and now it's over.
Speaker 1 (34:22):
I was trying to think I'm like wait, when did that
happen?
Speaker 2 (34:24):
yeah, yeah, so kind of around then so I got kind of
told that and I I felt like, no,this, I know there's a market
for this, I know people want toread this.
So I kind of felt like I'm notwaiting for them, for the
publishers to get it, I'm justgonna do it myself.
So that's kind of how.
So when you're an indie author,you do everything yourself.
(34:46):
You do all your marketing, youupload your book to Amazon and
then Amazon it.
If someone orders a paperbackcopy and sends it to you, you do
all your.
You know your social media, allthat kind of stuff which is
hard, is a lot of work.
But then also you get more ofthe money that you make goes to
(35:07):
you rather than a publisher.
Speaker 1 (35:09):
Were you, I mean, was social media marketing like a
challenge that you had to learn?
Yeah, yeah, it was.
It was a real, a real challengefor me.
I mean, was social mediamarketing like a challenge that
you had to learn?
Speaker 2 (35:14):
Yeah, yeah, it was a real challenge for me.
I mean one thing that like whenI first started I did a lot of
marketing just like it's a bookabout a sexy demon and it's fun.
I did a lot of stuff just aboutlike the external plot line.
But it wasn't until I changedkind of my style and I said you
(35:35):
know, this is a book about awoman with eldest daughter
syndrome.
That's when it hit.
Like that's when it got a lotmore popular.
It's like when people could seethemselves in a character and
wanted to read about a character.
That was that was moresuccessful for me.
Speaker 1 (35:51):
Who, would you say, your typical reader is?
Speaker 2 (35:53):
I would say definitely somebody over 30.
That was kind of another thingthat I realized.
I didn't really even thinkanything about it.
But my, you know, my maincharacter is 30.
And there's I would kind of putthat in my marketing as well
like a 30 year old, you know,main character with eldest
daughter syndrome.
That falls for a smut readingdemon um and reading.
(36:15):
Yeah, he loves smut um but yeah, because a lot, because there's
a lot of fantasy romance wherethe main character's 19 yeah, I
have an issue with that yeah,like I've always felt I don't
know.
Speaker 1 (36:27):
Twilight I, I read twilight I enjoyed reading
twilight.
I was probably that age aboutbut like I mean, there's like a
lot of stalkerish tendencies inthat book and she's so young and
suddenly she's becoming likeimmortal forever and ever with
this guy who is actually like ahundred years older right right,
(36:48):
I'm sorry, I have an issue withthat whole concept of like, but
that is not what we hear about.
Yeah, but yeah.
So I'm like I feel like someonein their 30s still wouldn't
want to be immortal but it'smore yeah yeah.
Speaker 2 (37:02):
So I feel like my ideal reader would be a woman in
her 30s, um, maybe an oldestdaughter doesn't have to be
someone that maybe kind ofstruggles with a lot of people
pleasing tendencies, which iswhat kind of what my main
character kind of gets over, um,and then someone who likes a
hero that's not toxic but willalso shocking he beat somebody
(37:26):
up for you, like, yeah, tortureyour ex in the underworld if he
has to okay, I don't want toforget to ask you this because I
feel like I'm very interestedDo you ever feel awkward knowing
that family and friends arereading a romance book that you
wrote with like sex scenes andstuff that you wrote?
100% yes.
Speaker 1 (37:45):
How do you handle that?
Speaker 2 (37:46):
It's awful it's, it's I don't know it's.
I think I'm more worried aboutit than they are.
I mean, they know that's partof the deal with writing romance
, that's just how it goes.
But it just feels likeembarrassing and just it just
feels.
It just feels really weird andit's been hard for me to deal
(38:07):
with that Cause it's like I'm asex positive feminist.
You know, it's like I.
I think this is great, but it'sjust just knowing.
Like, yeah, the people in mylife are reading this and it's
tough, but you got to pushthrough it.
I mean, that's what one of thethings I think I said in this
class is like when you'rewriting spicy scenes, don't
(38:28):
think about your grandma readingthis oh gosh Like just put it
out there.
Speaker 1 (38:32):
Yeah, yeah, we don't want to think about our grandma.
No, you also talked about, likethe Enneagram and how you use
that for like motivation.
I find the Enneagram veryinteresting, so can you tell me
more about that?
Sure, yeah.
Speaker 2 (38:48):
So I use.
So I yeah, I love the Enneagramtoo and I use it for characters
, so I kind of figure, so itkind of gives me like a
blueprint of what thischaracter's, what their fears,
what their hopes are, what theirmotivations are.
So sometimes when I'm writing acharacter I'll know right away
like, oh, you know, my main, mydemon character, he's a four,
(39:09):
he's very, he's a tortured, youknow, artist kind of that's kind
of personality.
But then with other characterswhere I'm not sure, sometimes I
will just take a test, anEnneagram test, as them like
kind of pick the answers that Ithink my character will pick.
And I've been surprisedsometimes, like I'm sure that
they're one number, but thenwhen I get the results back it's
(39:30):
like oh no, they're actually asix or whatever.
Speaker 1 (39:33):
Yeah, which the Enneagram is.
I think it's interestingbecause it it is a personality
test.
It's about like motivations andwhy someone's doing something.
Um, but I think, for in reallife, it's like you don't want
to be, like it's an excuse orwhatever, but I do think it
could be really helpful of likeoh, I don't think this way,
(39:55):
Cause I'm not that, but how do Iget?
Speaker 2 (39:57):
this character to be thinking this way.
Yeah, and it helps.
I think it helps me beconsistent with their reactions.
So I'm not kind of messing up.
You know that I kind of forgetlike, well, this isn't really
their, their character wouldn'treact this way.
But it's like I can kind ofstay like oh, a six would react
this way, or whatever.
Speaker 1 (40:16):
Yeah, I thought I think I'm remembering this right
that your main characteridentifies as an well, she.
I'm using Enneagram.
Yeah, she's a nine.
Speaker 2 (40:24):
She's a nine yeah, so my female main character is a
nine, so she's very much kind ofa people pleaser, kind of um.
You know she doesn't likeconflict.
She doesn't, you know, wants toavoid any kind of tension yeah
and then my main character is avengeance demon who kind of gets
really mad and really full ofrage when people are kind of
(40:45):
doing things they're notsupposed to.
So they kind of clash with himkind of going over the top with
his confrontation and rage andthen, she kind of needs to learn
to kind of stand up for herselfand fight for herself.
Speaker 1 (40:59):
Do you mind if I ask what you identify?
Speaker 2 (41:01):
as Sure, I'm a one, you're a one, yeah, so I'm very.
Speaker 1 (41:05):
Can you remind me what that is?
Speaker 2 (41:06):
Yeah, so one is uh, we're very hard on ourselves.
We want things to be donecorrectly, we want things to be
done, um, in the right way.
We're very efficient and kindof like we like rules, but only
if they make sense.
So we get get really mad, likewhen people don't return their
cart at the grocery store, likethat sort of thing really sets
(41:29):
us off yeah, yeah, what are?
What are you?
What's your?
Do you know what your enneagramis?
Speaker 1 (41:33):
a nine oh, a nine.
Oh, okay, okay, you aired allmy dirty.
Yeah, I did I did.
Speaker 2 (41:39):
Yeah, does that?
Does that ring true for you all?
Speaker 1 (41:41):
that it does, I've definitely struggled with, like
the people-pleasing um conflictlike I can.
So I wing eight, okay, whichwhen I first took the Enneagram
test, there was something goingon in my life where it came out
as an eight and I was like thisI don't think this is right yeah
um, but I'm I'm gonna say I hada relationship that was with an
(42:07):
Enneagram four a guy thatidentified as a four, and I
remember being in your class andbe like, oh god, this is so
accurate.
Speaker 2 (42:15):
Yeah, um, but I've definitely struggled with
speaking up for myself inrelationships, so I did identify
with how you're yeah, well see,I'm a one wing nine oh, so that
?
Speaker 1 (42:26):
oh yeah, so I get that.
I totally get when you'rewriting, because that was kind
of I was wondering how did itfeel writing from that
perspective?
Speaker 2 (42:32):
yeah, I mean it was easy because it was kind of like
I know how this feels, I knowhow this, how this goes um yeah.
Speaker 1 (42:40):
I want to do like a whole episode on Enneagram and I
was really into it a few yearsago and I'd have to kind of like
brush up on it but it's, Ithink it's.
Speaker 2 (42:47):
It's a tool, but it's not like an excuse or yeah,
yeah, whatever you can't saylike well, I'm always late
because I'm a seven, like that'snot, that's not cool.
Yeah like yeah, we're notfriends right, yeah, I am not
late, yeah yeah, so what wouldyou?
Speaker 1 (43:04):
any advice that you would give to somebody who's
like I have always wanted towrite a book, but it feels like
harder I start and I can'tfinish, yep.
Speaker 2 (43:13):
So my kind of my go-to advice and I feel like it
sounds kind of cliche like juststart, but do.
Just start, but don't be afraidto write bad, just write
garbage to start with.
Write as terribly as you want,don't use complete sentences,
(43:33):
break all the grammar rules,just get it out and then you can
go back and make it better.
That's the thing that I thinkholds a lot of people back is
they feel like even with and Iwas like this too like I spent
weeks thinking about the firstline of my book because that you
know your first line has allthis, you know it needs to grab
people and it needs to do this,and it was like I didn't do
(43:55):
anything else but that.
So just start writing terriblyand also build a consistent
practice.
Like you don't have to write.
You know there's like advice,like write every day, you don't
have to do that.
But I do think it's good if youcan carve out 10 minutes every
day to just think about yourbook.
Just, maybe you're writing,maybe you're brainstorming,
(44:18):
maybe you're researching.
I think 10 minutes six days aweek is better than one hour one
day a week.
Speaker 1 (44:25):
Do you find like taking an intentional day off is
helpful for you?
Speaker 2 (44:30):
yeah, so I really and that was something too with
being an author and being doingthe grant writing work where I'm
self-employed I would I reallyhad to train myself to take
weekends off yeah because I,because I kind of thought, well,
I'm, you know, I'm at home,like I might as well just do
some work, like it's right there.
But I really realized like Ithink, with your, with a
(44:53):
creative, with anything creative, I think you can do only about
four hours in a day.
Yeah, that's like the sweetspot.
Speaker 1 (45:02):
Yeah, I could see that and I I've tried to be very
intentional about taking a dayoff from honestly like anything
so like I.
Whether it's Saturday or Sunday, I don't really care, but it's
often like it's not that I'm notgonna do anything, but I'm not
gonna plan anything, yeah.
And then it's like oh, I mightgo for a hike.
Or a friend is like hey, wantto grab coffee.
(45:24):
And I'm like, yeah, sure, let'sgo, but it's always like don't
work, Don't have like thepressure of like you have to get
this thing done and it's veryrefreshing and renewing.
Speaker 2 (45:36):
Yeah, and I think once you go back to work you're
better at it.
You can do it more efficientlyafter that break.
Speaker 1 (45:44):
Okay, so is there anything else you'd like to
share before I move us along?
Speaker 2 (45:48):
um, I don't think so.
I think I'm, I think I'm goodyeah cool, so I had.
Speaker 1 (45:54):
This is a random thought that I've been thinking
about because I've been tryingto declutter my house, okay, and
I have like multiple drawersthat are just dedicated to like
orphan courts, okay, yeah andI've definitely gotten rid of
the stuff related to them, butI'm like paranoid that one of
them is going to be like the oneright, yeah, do you experience
(46:15):
this we have a box of cords atour house.
Speaker 2 (46:19):
Yeah, and it's just random cords and it's.
I think we have that.
I have a problem more with likecraft supplies, like just
random boxes, like I might needthis.
You know, one inch piece ofribbon one day, so I need to
save that.
So, yeah, I totally get that.
I have that with yarn toobecause I crochet, but I don't
(46:39):
crochet a lot and I'm like but Ispent money on it, it it's just
like this big thing.
Speaker 1 (46:44):
So I've actually started donating stuff to the
Animal Humane Society.
So I'm like crocheting with allthese old yarn pieces, this
horrible ugly blanket.
And then I just like bring itand they're like thank you so
much.
Speaker 2 (46:59):
Yeah, and the dogs love it.
Speaker 1 (47:00):
Yeah, the dogs love it.
Yeah, that's great.
Yeah, I think I need to setmyself a deadline on the cords,
though, and be like if youhaven't used anything out of
this drawer in like a year justthrow it away?
Speaker 2 (47:11):
yeah, I think so, because you can always buy a new
one too.
Speaker 1 (47:14):
Yeah, it's not that expensive.
Yeah, they're not thatexpensive.
Speaker 2 (47:17):
I know, but it's it's .
It's hard to like when you havethat moment like, oh, I should
have kept it.
Speaker 1 (47:21):
That's the worst feeling and I do that with my
closet a little bit of like.
I've heard that turn yourhangers.
Speaker 2 (47:29):
Oh, your hangers?
I've heard that too.
Yeah, and then after a year, ifyou haven't worn it like get
rid of it.
Speaker 1 (47:34):
Yeah yeah, I've never done that.
Speaker 2 (47:36):
It seems like a good idea yeah.
Speaker 1 (47:38):
I've never actually turned the hangers, but I do try
to go through and be like Idon't think you've worn this in
a year.
Speaker 2 (47:43):
Yeah, yeah, it's not going to change.
Speaker 1 (47:45):
You're going to look the same in it.
Speaker 2 (47:46):
Right, right.
So why are you holding it yeah?
Speaker 1 (47:49):
yeah, so what have you been obsessing over lately?
Speaker 2 (47:57):
I've been really into .
So there's a show it's a coupleyears ago on HBO Max.
It's called Undercover Underageand it's about this team of
like amazing women that goundercover as like teenage girls
and catch like abusers online,like online pedophiles.
Speaker 1 (48:19):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (48:20):
And they work with law enforcement and it's so
satisfying, it's like kind oflike to catch a predator.
But but it's just with thisteam of women that kind of know
the game, that kind of know it'sa reality show oh, wow it's a
real show, it's, it's the um,the it's with a non-profit,
that's it's called so.
So safe from safe from onlinesex abuse.
(48:42):
I think I, oh I just love it.
It's like that's.
That's like asking yourquestion about like, do any
characters based on real people?
Like sometimes the vengeancedemon in me comes out a little
bit, like that kind of like.
It's just so satisfying towatch these predators get taken
down.
So that's what I've beenwatching a lot of that lately
that sounds good.
Speaker 1 (49:02):
Is HBO.
It's on.
Speaker 2 (49:03):
HBO max yeah, okay.
Speaker 1 (49:05):
I've been watching big bang theory on there.
Oh, okay, that's where I'vebeen seeing the um sex in the
city yeah.
So, uh, what I'm obsessing overis my, my sister-in-law and my
mom both got new horses and Imet them for the first time over
the weekend or gosh, I've losttrack of time yeah, yeah, I was
(49:27):
in Minnesota last weekend and,like I, love them so much and.
I I grew up with horses.
I've done like um horse therapy.
But like my mom's horse, albert, is so fun and like he, he's
very green, he's six years oldand he's very playful, whereas
her, her um horse passed thiswinter unexpectedly and he was
(49:50):
super chill, like very serious.
But elbert is just like what'sgoing on and like checking out,
like looking himself in themirror and just very playful.
And then katie, she got three.
Joey is an old man and then,sully, salute to America, he's
thoroughbred.
He used to be a racing horsefrom Kentucky and then Patriot
(50:13):
they call him Pat, pat and Sullyloved me and I found his
scratching spots and he wasshowing me where to scratch him
and he was just stretching hisneck.
Speaker 2 (50:22):
Oh, that's so sweet.
You got your own equine therapyright there.
Speaker 1 (50:26):
Yeah, I'm like I love these guys, yeah, yeah that's
so fun I was.
I'm like wait, how do I govisit the horses more?
Yeah but my friend Philip saidI could come visit his parents
horses.
Oh, there you go, okay.
So yeah, um, do you have anyrecommendations for our audience
?
I do.
Speaker 2 (50:45):
It's totally random, but not book related at all, but
kind of crunchy Zen.
So I have tried every kind ofnatural deodorant that there is
and I the best one is actually alocal company.
It's called Little Seed Farmand their deodorant Like if
you're a person that wants to,you know, I I don't even know
(51:07):
what there's aluminum is bad foryou all there's all these
reasons that you're not supposedto know.
Speaker 1 (51:11):
I'm the person that wants to circle my dishes.
Okay, so little seed farm.
Speaker 2 (51:14):
Little seed is a local uh, I think they're based
in Lebanon, okay, and they dothis amazing um deodorant that
like works.
Speaker 1 (51:22):
Yeah so that's my, yeah, that's my.
Speaker 2 (51:25):
That's the key with saying it from the, you know
from any, everywhere, yeah.
Speaker 1 (51:28):
Yeah, it's like do these organic things work the
aluminum is definitely an issue.
Speaker 2 (51:33):
Right, right.
Speaker 1 (51:35):
We'll link to the recommendations.
Speaker 2 (51:37):
Yeah, I'll ask you to send me that yeah.
Speaker 1 (51:39):
I've definitely tried a couple and I'm like oh, these
don't 100% work, and they'renot cheap either.
Speaker 2 (51:44):
They're not cheap.
Speaker 1 (51:45):
So you're like testing.
Could these places like havethey should give like little
sample tests.
Speaker 2 (51:50):
They should.
Speaker 1 (51:50):
Yeah, that's a great idea, my recommendation I
brought, I'm going to casuallyreach down here and not let
there be a ton of silence.
So teas.
So one thing I've learned isthat there's stuff in teas that
you shouldn't be drinking.
So it's been kind of hard tolike find things that are
(52:12):
healthy, organic.
Um, this one I got from Target.
It's what is it?
Puka, I think that's how it'spronounced, but it's all natural
ingredients.
There's not even the naturalflavoring, cause we can go into
what's in natural flavoring, butwe'll pass on that now.
But I really like this.
Chamomile, vanilla and manukahoney.
Blissful calm.
Speaker 2 (52:33):
Yum, that sounds good , I like it.
Speaker 1 (52:35):
I'm trying to quit my coffee but clearly that's not
working.
And then this one, telka.
This is from Australia.
Okay, I love this tea.
I've been drinking it for a fewyears.
This one's a lavender moon forblessed sleep, ooh.
But you do have to order prettywell ahead of time.
Especially around Christmastime, this gets very delayed,
okay, but I love this tea.
Speaker 2 (52:57):
So good, the tin is adorable, I know it's from
Australia Because again, theyhave better regulations.
Right yeah, Australia Again theyhave better regulations, right,
yeah?
So what are you looking forwardto this week?
So this week, so my new booklaunches and I'm having a zoom
launch party for it.
So that's happening this week.
(53:18):
So readers from all over theworld are registering and then
I'm going to do a little readingon the book and then also my my
first book, I'm Unbound byShadows, came out in audiobook
recently and I'm gonna have thenarrator on the zoom call and
kind of, we're gonna talktogether.
So, yeah, I'm excited aboutthat.
Speaker 1 (53:37):
That's really fun.
Speaker 2 (53:38):
Yeah, I, I like try to promote it, but that's okay,
yeah, yeah this isn't coming outtill after, but when it comes
in august, I'm also having anin-person book launch party in
nashville.
Speaker 1 (53:50):
What do you know?
Speaker 2 (53:51):
what date and time it's august 13th, it'll be at
honey tree meadery and becausethere's hellhounds in this next
book, I'm working with wags andwalks who are bringing puppies I
love them to the event.
Yeah, so it's.
There's a on my Instagram atAvalon underscore Griffin.
There's a link in my bio to forall the details of the
(54:13):
in-person release.
Speaker 1 (54:14):
Okay, We'll share your Instagram.
I was like what's that called?
Speaker 2 (54:18):
Yeah, yeah, we'll share that.
Speaker 1 (54:20):
Yeah, I'm like, as I asked you what you're looking
forward to.
Speaker 2 (54:24):
yeah, I'm like as I asked you what you're looking
forward to, I was like wait,what am I?
I don't even.
I didn't even think about this?
Speaker 1 (54:28):
what am I looking forward to?
Um, I'm prepared just relaxing.
Yes, yeah, I am actually reallylooking forward to.
I have cranial sacral massagethis afternoon, which is always
like very helpful, verydifferent massage from like a
normal massage, um, um.
But I am really looking forwardto it cause it really helps my
(54:49):
neck and my head and everything.
Speaker 2 (54:50):
So that's what I'm excited about.
Speaker 1 (54:53):
Well, um, you shared where we could find you and
we'll definitely link to that.
Thank you so much for beinghere.
Speaker 2 (54:59):
Thank you for having me.
Speaker 1 (55:00):
Yeah, yeah, and we'll um, um, look forward to having
your book come out and yeah.
So thank you for listening tomy crunchy zen era.
Um, please tune in next week.
Thanks for listening to mycrunchy zen era.
Please subscribe and leave areview wherever you listen to
your podcasts.
This podcast is produced by me,nicole swisher and my good
(55:22):
friends summer Harkup and LizColter, editing is by Drew
Harrison Media and recording isdone by Lagos Creative in
Nashville, tennessee.
Thanks for hanging out.
We'll be back next week.
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