October 30, 2025 • 50 mins
If your nervous system has been living on espresso and good intentions, this episode is your gentle nudge to breathe, laugh, and maybe rethink everything you thought you knew about happiness. Nicole chats with Jackie Oña Cascarano — Executive Career and Wellness Coach, and founder of Juno Women’s Collective — about the actual science of feeling good and the surprisingly simple ways to get there.
Jackie breaks down the PERMA model of Positive Psychology (that’s Positive Emotions, Engagement, Relationships, Meaning, and Achievement — basically the five ingredients for a well-balanced brain smoothie). She and Nicole dig into how to weave those elements into real life — especially when your calendar looks like a CVS receipt. Expect fresh takes on gratitude, micro-joys, and why chasing “balance” might be missing the point.
The two also get real about burnout culture, the weird perfectionism epidemic, and how the tools of Positive Psychology can help you rewire your thoughts, reclaim your purpose, and maybe even enjoy your to-do list. Jackie’s story — from courtroom chaos to coaching clarity — is proof that flourishing doesn’t mean having it all figured out; it means learning to thrive, mess and all.
This episode feels like brain science in a cozy sweater — smart, funny, and full of “oh wow, that’s me” moments. If you’ve ever wanted to feel calmer and more alive without quitting your job to move to Bali, this conversation’s your sign.
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Recommendations:
- The Gilded Age on Netflix
- Hidden Holler Farms
Guest: Jackie Oña Cascarano
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
SPEAKER_00 (00:00):
What's something crunchy or Zen that you've done
lately?
So I am really into the pursuitof quiet these days.
Okay.
So I think the world is so loud.
My my world is really loud.
I have three children and a loudhusband and uh two jobs, and I'm
also in grad school.
(00:20):
So there's so much.
And I just feel like for mepersonally, and I do, I think
for women generally, there's somuch stimuli.
So I have been in the pursuit ofquiet.
And whether Nicole, that is inlike quiet time in the morning
on my like rocking chair, that'swonderful.
(00:41):
I've also done a quiet, a quietday.
Have you done a quiet day?
No.
It's insane.
So you I I went, it wasorganized by this ministry, and
you go to someone's house, andit's legit what it sounds like,
which is like you do not speakfor a day.
And they give you um likejournal prompts and whatnot, so
(01:04):
you have something to do, but itis profound.
You feel you, you, you walk outof it feeling really refreshed
and really clear.
SPEAKER_03 (01:14):
Wow.
It's interesting because off thetop of my head, I can think of
two guests recently who havekind of alluded to that as well.
And I feel like it's reallybecoming a theme.
It's definitely a theme in mylife.
I was texting a friend earlierand I was like, how do people do
these slow lives?
Like, right?
Where do like what do they do?
(01:35):
I want that.
She was like, What are youtalking about?
I was like, here's a YouTubevideo.
Yeah, tell me what you thinkthey got here.
But it is, it's kind offollowing that quiet and calm
and like, yes.
I I've heard someone say thatlike in the past, we only got
the news once a day, and then wegot it twice a day, and now we
get it constantly, and we're notmeant to get it constantly.
SPEAKER_00 (01:57):
I mean, I think about the cortisol spikes
throughout the day, just I mean,through that alone, which is
like one component of thebarrage of things we should not
be exposed to at all times.
SPEAKER_03 (02:07):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (02:08):
Okay, I like that quiet day.
So quiet, my pursuit of quiet ismy crunchy zen.
SPEAKER_03 (02:12):
I like it.
Welcome to my crunchy zen era.
Uh, this is a weekly podcastfilled with a little fun, a
little humor, and a whole lot ofcuriosity.
I'm your host, Nicole Swisher,and today I am joined by my
(02:34):
guest, Jackie Onya Cascarano.
Welcome.
Thank you.
Jackie owns two businesses.
Um, your mindset coach, which isa coaching business specifically
for lawyers, and Juno, which iswhy don't you tell me what Juno
is exactly?
SPEAKER_00 (02:52):
So Juno Women's Collective is a network for
women who are seeking clarity.
I would say clarity and momentumin their next professional
chapters.
So it is a mix of women who arecoming from different
backgrounds, but they all sharesomething in common, which is
(03:12):
that they're in a transition ofsome sort professionally.
They're trying to figure outwhat's next.
Or some of them are about tolaunch a business.
They like they know what's next,but they just want support of a
community and more clarity.
SPEAKER_03 (03:26):
Gotcha.
I like that.
I feel like we all need that alittle bit.
For sure.
Yeah.
Yeah.
So tell me what's a memory thatyou wish you could relive and
why.
SPEAKER_00 (03:36):
Yeah.
Um, so I was thinking aboutthis.
I and I was wondering, like,should this be some sort of
profound memory, like my weddingday or something like that?
And then I was like, no, youknow what?
It's um, I go on girls' weekendsonce a year with my two best
girlfriends from high school.
So I have known these girls,these ladies, because I'm 45.
(03:58):
I like to think of myself as agirl.
I've known these girls since wewere like 13 and 14.
And we live in different cities.
And every time we see eachother, we have the most fun.
And like we laugh so hard wecry.
And that those are the memoriesI would love to relive, like on
a like a daily basis.
It's just like the joy and likebelly laughs, and like we don't
(04:21):
even, we don't even sayanything.
It's like a look and we juststart cracking up.
And that's that's joyful andbeautiful.
I would love to relive thatmore.
SPEAKER_03 (04:29):
It's fun when you've had friends for so long that
they know your body language,they know your facial
expressions.
Like you can't really get awaywith anything.
SPEAKER_00 (04:38):
A thousand percent.
And like the jokes persist like30, 30 years later, it's like
the same joke, which isphenomenal.
SPEAKER_03 (04:46):
That's what my sister and I were like.
When we play um catchphrase, weare unbeatable.
Love's amazing.
Love that.
Yeah.
So, Jackie, I'm really excitedto have you here today.
Um, as a lawyer, as a woman whowe all go through like a lot of
career changes, and I'mfascinated by what you've put
(05:07):
together.
Can you tell me more about yourcoaching business?
Yes.
SPEAKER_00 (05:12):
So I'm a la I am a former attorney.
So I used to practice law andpivoted to advising in law
schools.
So, like my coaching, I havelike a coaching counseling bone
that like I was um, it was uhreally neat to use that in a law
(05:32):
school setting.
Um, so I have been doingcoaching in some capacity for 15
years or so.
Um I focus on attorneys in yourmindset coach because of course
I used to be one, so I canreally identify with a what a
lot of female attorneys aregoing through.
And it's it's a toughprofession, like Nicole, you
(05:57):
know this.
It's just it's just a reallytough profession, period, just
like generally.
And then I think that if you areum a woman uh that adds to it.
I think I do think it's morechallenging for women for a
variety of reasons.
And then I think if you're thekind of person who is seeking,
if you're the kind of personwho's seeking balance and
(06:22):
harmony and fulfillmentprofessionally, the the legal
profession can be really hard.
So so I encounter a lot of womenthat want to be good at what
they do.
So they they want to be goodlawyers.
Maybe they they even are goodlawyers, like they're like, I'm
good at this, and they're alsonot particularly happy in their
(06:42):
work.
So they want to be happy intheir work and successful in
their work.
And that's there's a fallacy, Ithink, that lawyers in
particular can't have that.
It's like you gotta like endure.
Like if you want to besuccessful, you have to endure
the lifestyle that comes withit.
Um, or you could just be happyand not be a lawyer, you know?
So it's like there is a sweetspot.
(07:03):
It takes work, uh, but that'swhat that's what I do with a lot
of lawyer, um, lawyer clientswithin my work.
SPEAKER_03 (07:09):
Do you focus more on women or do you take men and
women as your clients?
SPEAKER_00 (07:15):
I work with both men and women.
I naturally just have tended touh have more female clients.
SPEAKER_03 (07:21):
And what do you think it is about women that
makes the legal profession moredifficult?
SPEAKER_00 (07:27):
Um I think there are just systemic issues.
And we've talked about this.
Um I mean I think the thepatriarchy was the answer.
The patriarchy.
Um I think there are systemicissues um that make it more
challenging for for a femalehuman to be, you know, in a in
the legal profession.
(07:48):
I think it's a lot better thanit used to be.
So when I was when I was ayounger, um, when I was a young
associate in the mid-2000s, um,you know, we I mean, there was a
women's committee, I'm sure, butthere there weren't, you know,
uh DEI B initiatives like thereare today.
And of course, some of them aregoing to the way falling to the
(08:10):
wayside uh for politicalreasons, but you know, they
exist and they are people arepaying attention to them.
Belonging is a thing now.
Um and it wasn't like that inthe early to mid-2000s for sure.
So it's certainly gotten better,but I think that just for women,
um, it it can be hard when youknow the majority of partners in
(08:33):
a law firm are men.
And if you are a woman who wantsto have both a career and a
family, it's just challenging inany profession.
But specifically, I think in thelegal profession, it's just
really, really hard.
SPEAKER_03 (08:48):
It is.
I mean, I I don't have children,but I've watched a number of my
female colleagues go throughgoing on maternity leave.
And one thing that I haveobserved is that as they get
closer, I would say like amonth, because now everyone's
thinking, well, the baby couldcome early too.
(09:09):
Everything, everything starts tobe taken off their plate.
Yeah.
And so their hours drop.
And a most of the time, I don'tknow if our listeners know this,
like your hours as a lawyer,your billable hours directly
relate to what you're gonna getpaid, salary, bonus, reviews,
everything, what kinds of umopportunities you get at the
(09:30):
firm, because the higher yourbilling, the more valuable you
are in most firms.
And so they have to like startto wean off projects to the
point where they might havealmost nothing to do for a week
or two.
Then they're gone on maternityleave, and then they come back
and they often don't get theirwork back because somebody else
has now taken over.
(09:51):
And some things I've heard is Imean, it's just easier, the
client's used to it.
And so now they have to likefight to get work back while
also balancing being a new momand all that comes with that.
And so I've I felt I feel verystrongly about that.
I don't know what the answer is.
One thing I've always felt isthat the men have to take
(10:13):
paternity leave.
Yeah.
Like I think friendshiprequires.
But anyway, that when you speakto that, that's something that I
feel very strongly about, eventhough I I've never experienced
it as a woman in that way.
Um, I've just seen it happenover and over again.
And it's I've seen my friendscrying in their offices
repeatedly.
SPEAKER_00 (10:34):
It's hard.
And then and then they'll comeback and there's there's no such
thing as part-time.
No, there's no like like they'llthey'll just pay you half of
what you used to get paid, butbut you're not you're not
working half as much.
It's just so amorphous.
So that's another thing I hearwith people that are trying to
get back and they're trying toreclaim that.
Um I don't, it's it's it'ssystemic.
So I mean there are always theseinitiatives trying to like, you
(10:56):
know, rewire the legalprofession.
And it's like, oh, well, it'sthat's hard.
It's just really hard.
And and the the words you usedwhere it's um basically the more
you bill, the more valuable youare.
I mean, like womp womp.
Like it it's it's true.
And then also like, you know,what are we telling ourselves
every day when we go to bed atnight?
(11:17):
The more I the more hours Ibill, the more valuable I am.
Yep.
I mean, you know, obviously thatmeans that pertains to work, but
there's a part of that that Ithink you you just sort of
absorb.
SPEAKER_03 (11:27):
Yeah.
And so the other, I mean, wecould go so far into the legal
profession, but I will I'll saylike the other thing that is
challenging is then if you'reefficient, if you don't bill as
much time because actually thatproject didn't take as much
time, um, you're penalized forit.
And frankly, I've always beenthe type of lawyer that I don't
(11:51):
run the clock.
I get the work done, I get itdone efficiently.
And I know of people who are notthat way.
And so my my bonuses weren't asmuch.
And yeah, we'll stop there withthat.
But I it is it's I I I thinkthere should be a way to change
(12:11):
it.
I just I don't know what it is.
Yeah.
Um anyway, so why why did youswitch from being a lawyer
originally?
SPEAKER_00 (12:19):
Yeah.
Um, so I was an attorney, I wasa litigator.
I practiced in Philly.
Um only for a couple of years,actually.
I was maybe I was an attorneymaybe for four years.
I was not not, I did notpractice for very long.
SPEAKER_03 (12:33):
Did you know your like the first year, did you
know it was like I don't want tokeep doing this, or did it take
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (12:39):
I mean, I think I probably knew in law school.
Okay.
I went to law school.
I had I had a um a sudden deathin the family at the end of
college, and life was just kindof crazy.
And then I was like, oh, I gotinto a good law school.
I guess I'll just go.
Like it was one of thosesituations where, you know, when
you're 22, you are like a baby.
(13:00):
Like part of the brain really islike literally not formed.
Um, so I was dealing withpersonal stuff, and then I got
into a good law school, and mymom was like, Go to law school.
And it was also after 9-11, solike the economy was crazy
pants.
Yeah.
So I was like, Well, I mean,grad school sounds good.
So I went to law school and whenI first started practicing, I
(13:21):
basically kind of fell into apractice area that wasn't really
well suited for my personalitytype.
I'm a I'm a coach counselortype, and I was um a litigator.
I was doing insurance defenselitigation, and I didn't really
feel like I was helping anybodynecessarily.
(13:41):
So I knew it was gonna beshort-lived, or I, or I knew I
needed to pivot.
But as you know, again, and thisis not like an interview on the
legal industry, but this is onefacet of it.
It's really hard to changepractice areas.
Really hard, yep.
Yeah.
Um, and especially and then itwas 2008, and the economy was
also, you know, bananas again uhfor the recession.
(14:02):
So at that point, I was like,I'm just I was like, this is God
telling me to try somethingelse.
Yeah.
So um I then pivoted to work atuh a law school, which was so
fun and really cool.
And I loved working withstudents.
Um and I was I worked in thecareer services office um at two
law schools.
Which law schools were they?
So I worked at Notre Dame.
(14:23):
Okay, and I got my husband, Isaid to my husband, who's an
entrepreneur, we had aone-year-old baby at the time.
I was like, hey, so if I justapply to a bunch of law schools
around the country, would you begame to move somewhere?
And uh and he's like, Yeah,because he could work from
wherever.
So we moved to South Bend,Indiana.
We lived there for two years,and I loved it there.
(14:45):
It was so it was such a greatjob.
Um, but he's from Florida, so hewas really cold.
You get that.
It was so cold.
The man was so cold.
You're from Minnesota, is it?
You get it.
Um the Midwest is is a differentbrand of freezing.
Um, and then we moved toNashville, where I worked at
Vanderbilt Law School.
SPEAKER_03 (15:04):
Okay.
SPEAKER_00 (15:05):
That is how I ended up in.
SPEAKER_03 (15:06):
That's how you ended up here.
Yeah.
Cool.
So with these different hatsthat you've worn over the years,
have you seen like there's kindof this pattern or through line
where you can see how yourstrengths were being used and
kind of evolved to where you aretoday?
SPEAKER_00 (15:21):
Yeah.
I mean, I think the the threadthat ties all of what I do
together and has really, since Istopped being an attorney,
frankly, um, is is reallycounseling and coaching.
So I I see myself as an advocatefor others.
Um, I love to, I feel fulfilledwhen I can take a situation
(15:46):
that's kind of messy and helpsomeone find a path in it.
So that's really fulfilling tome.
And that's what I did when I wasat, you know, the two law
schools.
Um, that's certainly what I docoaching individually with
attorneys.
And then with Juno, um, that'sexactly what we do.
It's it's for Juno, you'reyou're placed in a cohort
(16:09):
essentially, and you have acurriculum and you're working
through, you know, how to getthat clarity.
So again, it's that like guidingsomebody through a situation
that's kind of messy and makingit neater and clearer.
How long has Juno been around?
So Juno's been around for abouta year and a half.
Okay.
Um, so it's relatively new andum it's a startup and um it's
(16:35):
great.
It's growing organically, andit's absolutely the most fun
thing I've done.
And I felt very, I felt verycalled to do it.
I'm not, I'm not theentrepreneur type.
Um my husband is.
I'm not.
I love um, I'm an Enneagram six.
I don't know if you're anEnneagram person.
Yeah.
(16:55):
Um, so we love safety and likestability.
Um so I I don't know how Idecided to launch a business.
Two businesses.
Yeah, two businesses, right?
Yeah.
The one, the your mindset coachis sort of very reliant on me.
Okay.
It's just my coaching practice.
But you're right.
See, I'm not giving myselfenough credit for the fact that
it is a business.
(17:16):
Um, but Juno is more out there.
Um, I mean, there's, you know,we're we're seeking members and
and whatnot.
But I felt very called to do itbecause I knew when I, when I
was going through a career pivotyears ago, I felt very isolated.
And I remember recently before,before launching Juno, I had
(17:38):
coffee.
I was I was networking a lotbecause I was um at that
particular stage of life.
I was like in my networking era,and I kept on coming into
contact with women who weresaying, I'm I'm I'm wanting
something more.
I don't know what I want, but Ifeel a stirring for something
different.
(17:59):
And I feel really alone in thisand I don't know what to do.
And I just kept on running intowomen who were seeking a
community.
And I was like, wow, that thatthat means something.
SPEAKER_03 (18:10):
Yeah.
I feel like we there aredifferent communities for
different times in your life.
Yeah.
And um I've been noticing thatfor myself lately.
And I think it is something youhave to be extremely intentional
about.
That's part of what actuallybrought me to Nashville was I
just felt very isolated inMinnesota.
(18:33):
Um there were a lot of thingsgoing on in Minneapolis, and I
just I just started noticing allmy friends were kind of getting
married, doing their own thing,or they were friends from work,
which to what extent they werelike healthy friendships.
I I mean I could say, but we Idon't want to go into it, but it
just wasn't uplifting,fulfilling, and I just was
(18:57):
feeling called to try somethingdifferent.
And so when I came to Nashville,I was like, I am gonna be very
intentional about this.
And now some of my community Imet in the first year, like
quite a few have left Nashville.
And so now I'm kind of like, allright, I need to search that out
again.
Yeah, yeah.
Community is really important.
Yeah.
(19:18):
Um, so you said you felt calledto start Juno.
Was there any like moment whereit was like, this is it?
Like I have to do this.
SPEAKER_00 (19:28):
Um it was several moments.
So I so Juno runs on a cohortmodel, as I mentioned.
So it's it's a small group ofwomen uh curated um that are in
this group in a group together.
We call them circles.
And the reason I decided tomodel it off um or model it like
(19:51):
that was because I was modelingit off of um an entrepreneurs
group my husband was in.
There's um an entrepreneursorganization.
It's actually nationwide, uh,but he was a part of it in
Nashville called EO, literallyvery kitchen.
Um there's a female um uhversion of that called Brain
Trust.
So they're I am so familiar withBrain Trust.
SPEAKER_03 (20:13):
I've actually like given an award of Brain Trust.
Really?
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (20:16):
Yeah.
So there are these twoorganizations that are um really
incredible and they are theyhave this a similar model where
you're in this group, it's allconfidential, you get together
every couple of weeks.
It's like group therapy, um, andit's very much focused.
Theirs is very much focused onyour business.
SPEAKER_03 (20:36):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (20:36):
Okay.
And my husband was going throughit and he was just thriving.
And I got very incensed one day.
And I was like, why is there notsomething like that for me?
I wasn't an entrepreneur yet.
Um, so I'm like, well, I can'tjoin.
I'm not an entrepreneur.
I don't have a business.
Um, and then even if I were tolaunch a business, there are
(20:57):
these uh revenue thresholds foreach.
So EO is like a million dollars.
Yeah.
Right.
That's that takes a while.
Yeah.
Um, brain trust, I don't, Idon't know what it is off top.
I think it's last time Ichecked, it was$100,000.
It could be less now.
SPEAKER_03 (21:11):
I think that's correct.
SPEAKER_00 (21:12):
Yeah.
But but that's a threshold.
And if you are a woman who isjust launching a business, um
that's gonna, that's gonna takea little bit to get to that
$100,000 threshold for revenue.
So I was very incensed and waslike telling my husband, I was
like, I don't understand why Idon't have access to something
like this.
And I felt like he had such thethings they were doing were so
(21:39):
cool and so focused on personaland professional growth.
And I kind of felt like it wasbeing um gatekeep a little bit.
It's like, well, why don'taverage normal women have access
to all this great material thatyou business owners, you know,
have access to.
SPEAKER_03 (21:59):
Yeah.
And thus Juno was born.
SPEAKER_00 (22:01):
So now I started Juno, yeah.
And and I worked the curriculumfor Juno is different.
I mean, I it's personally it'spersonal growth focused for
professional fulfillment andprofessional momentum.
So the the ethos of Juno isreally you need to figure out
(22:22):
yourself before you can figureout what you want to do next.
You know, that's I think achallenge.
SPEAKER_03 (22:27):
Yeah.
And part of that is involvedinvolves positive psychology,
right?
Yes.
And also in your coachingpractice, you involve that.
Can you tell me more about whatthat is?
SPEAKER_00 (22:38):
Yeah.
So positive psychology is a umit is a type of psychology
different than mainstreampsychology.
It was founded in the early2000s at the University of
Pennsylvania by um a gentlemannamed Martin Seligman.
And he's basically like thegrandfather of positive
(22:59):
psychology.
And it differs from mainstreampsychology in that mainstream
psychology has always focused onkind of the bad stuff in the
human mind, like whatever youmight find in the DSM, right?
So like anxiety or depression orschizophrenia, like all the bad
stuff we hear about when we'reum when you're taking like
abnormal psych in college, likeall the bad stuff.
(23:21):
And positive psychology, thepremise is basically like if you
were to take a human mind andtake all the bad stuff out, like
take the depression and theanxiety and take it out.
Um, would that, you know, humanmind, would that person be a
happy, uh thriving, fulfilledperson?
Not necessarily.
(23:42):
They would just be, you know,kind of a blank slate.
How do you make that person kindof run on all cylinders?
How do you help that personthrive and be um a flourishing
human being?
Because why like why else are weon this earth except to thrive
and to be the best versions ofourselves?
So that's that's the approach ofpositive psychology.
(24:03):
And I incorporate it um a lotinto my coaching uh with lawyers
and and with anyone.
Um, and then for Juno, it isreally, you know, the the
curriculum is based on positivepsychology.
So the curriculum piece forevery Juno meeting that each
circle has, there's a differentlike facet of positive
(24:25):
psychology that they dig into.
SPEAKER_03 (24:27):
And is it are there really specific activities or
conversations or way of likechanging how you're framing
things that that is kind of thefocus of the curriculum?
SPEAKER_00 (24:44):
There are there are several.
The the one, I think,foundational um lens through
which to look at um, you know,your life if you're looking at
it from a positive positivepsychology perspective is an
acronym uh called PERMA.
So P-E-R-M-A.
And that's D and it's basicallythe five dimensions of human
(25:06):
flourishing.
So the P is for positivefeelings or positive emotions,
and that's exactly what itsounds like, right?
You're the the experience ofpositivity throughout your day,
right?
Joy, curiosity, awe, wonder.
Um, E is the next one.
E is for engagement or flow,like when you're in that state
(25:28):
where things are um like youdon't even feel time going by,
like you're just really enjoyingwhat you're doing.
Flow happens or engagement, flowhappens when you are equally
matching a strength to achallenge.
And that's that's when you're inreally, a really good flow.
If the challenge is a little toohard for your strength, think
about it, you wouldn't be inflow.
(25:48):
It'd be like too hard.
Yeah.
But if it was also too easy, youwould also not be in flow.
A lot of people, um, I like tosay I'm not sporty, like I'm not
a sporty person, but I hear alot of sporty people tell me
like when they play pickleball,for example, or like basketball,
they they have a lot of flow.
Yeah.
Not anything I would have Iwould know about.
Um the next one is R, and that'sfor relationships.
(26:10):
And that goes back to theconversation about community.
Yeah.
So like the depth ofrelationships really matters.
Um, you know, how authentic youcan be, you know, in a group of
friends, family, um, just thecommunity, having a community
where you can be your authenticself.
Uh the next one is M formeaning, and that's basically
(26:33):
identifying with somethingbigger than yourself.
Uh, that can be faith.
Um, a lot of people will have Mfor meaning in their careers and
in their work, and that's reallycool.
That's a beautiful thing ifyou're able to do that and feel
that on a daily basis.
Yeah.
And then the last one is A.
So for perma, A.
(26:54):
And that's achievement.
And that's basically pursuinggoals, like setting goals for
yourself and pursuing them.
That is like we're wired forthat.
And even I'm not, I'm actuallynot competitive.
I'm I'm my children and myhusband are crazy competitive.
So we play Monopoly.
I'm like, I'm not having fun.
Like you guys, I don't, I don'twanna, this is this is crazy.
(27:16):
And yet I still am driven to seta goal for myself and achieve it
and make progress towards it.
So we're kind of wired for that.
SPEAKER_03 (27:26):
Does it have to be a big goal or can there be like
smaller ones?
SPEAKER_00 (27:32):
Yeah, they can be certainly be smaller ones, yeah.
Um, and I think, and that forJuno, that's something we work
on for sure, is like justidentifying bigger long-term
goals and then also smallerlittle G goals.
Um and then the important thingto know about PERMA is that none
of those dimensions are moredeterminative per se of your
(27:56):
overall flourishing andhappiness, but they all matter.
And it's like the the deficiencyof one is important.
So what we do is, you know, onething we'll do early is just
sort of try to analyze yourperma levels, right?
Like which one is lower.
That's interesting.
(28:16):
And it's and it's good, it'sit's just being aware of it's
actually really good.
SPEAKER_03 (28:20):
Yeah.
I'm like thinking it through.
I'm like, what would what wouldI be low on?
SPEAKER_00 (28:25):
Yeah, and you don't, and sometimes you don't even
realize it, you know, yeah.
Yeah.
Um, wow.
Or my relationships could bebetter.
Or and also sometimes you'rejust in like, you know, like a
chapter of life where maybeyou're not gonna have a lot of
meaning because you're you know,you're focused on something
else.
Like maybe you're maybe it's orit's shifts, like maybe you're
(28:49):
on maternity leave and yourmeaning is now squarely, you
have meaning, but it's it is noit's not professional anymore.
Like you are focused onsomething else.
Um or to give yourself a littlebit of grace in terms of like,
you know, I'm I I just got ahealth diagnosis.
No wonder my positive emotionsare not as high as they would
(29:11):
they could be.
Right.
SPEAKER_03 (29:13):
Yeah.
And do you have examples ofwhether it's from uh Martin
Seligman's work or what you'veobserved personally of how
incorporative psychology insomeone's life has caused a lot
of change for them?
SPEAKER_00 (29:30):
Yeah, I mean, I have so many clients.
I mean, those are those are theexamples.
Um a lot of it it's reallyunique, I think it's like really
unique to the individual andlike what they need.
Um I I worked with a lot of Iworked with one fellow who
wasn't an attorney, but one ofhis um one of his challenges was
(29:57):
basically it was an outlook anda mindset.
Mindset and lim and limitingbeliefs.
So we worked really hard onlimiting beliefs and sort of
arguing against these automaticlimiting beliefs that would have
that would occur when somethingwould happen.
So for example, if if somethingdoesn't go well, if there's a
(30:19):
setback at work, he wouldautomatically and really it's
subcon, it's like subconscious.
I mean, some of these, some ofthese are beliefs that come from
childhood, some of them comefrom prior adult experiences.
But the belief might be like, Istink at public speaking.
Oh my gosh, or I I I stink atthis.
I'm bad at work.
I'm like, I'm not good at this.
(30:40):
I'm gonna get fired.
And that automatic belief willcause consequences in terms of
your behavior and just yourdemeanor and your emotions.
And and usually it's prettyunhelpful.
So arguing against thoselimiting beliefs is incredibly
helpful.
The um going back to our lawyerfriends, like the issue
(31:01):
spotting, like the the fact thatyou're seeing, you're like, oh,
that's a limit, that's a limitedbelief.
Like that, I'm not goingautomatically from like the bad
event to like I am sad.
There's something in between.
And if you can disrupt thatequation, it's actually pretty
profound.
Like the consequences changeprofoundly because you're not as
(31:22):
um, you're not reallycatastrophizing, for example.
So that's just one example ofhow being open to spotting that
can really make a difference inyour everyday life.
And then kind of like over thecourse of your life, uh, it can
make a big difference.
SPEAKER_03 (31:40):
It's so interesting.
So it's like rewiring yourbrain, rewiring the pathways.
That's precisely what it is.
When I went back to workingafter my traumatic brain injury,
I started doing this thing whereI would talk to myself.
And I've actually shared this onthe podcast very early on.
I don't know if exactly what Isaid, but I started doing this
(32:03):
thing where I would look in themirror and just be like, you're
a good lawyer, you're smart,you're healed, um, you're happy,
you're healthy.
And I had heard it on, I think,the Mel Robbins podcast of like
speaking in the present ratherthan I'm going to be healed, I'm
going to be in a year, I'm goingto be.
(32:25):
And I did notice that it startedhelping me pull out of some fear
that I had of like when I wentback, would I would I be able to
process my work is verycomplicated.
And would I be able to handleit?
Would I be able to do, you know,I had a lot of trust and
(32:47):
confidence I had to regain afterwhat happened and what I went
through.
And so it was this funny thingof like I would do it in the
car, I would do it in thebathroom, just like anywhere.
And I truly believe it helpedme.
SPEAKER_00 (33:03):
Oh, I a thousand percent believe it helped you.
Yeah.
I think I think those um I meanit the fun the funny thing about
positive psychology andhonestly, like neuroplasticity,
like it works.
It just sounds so woo thatpeople just don't buy it.
And I heard someone, um, I hearda very well well respected
(33:27):
positive psychologist actuallyuh say, you know, um, you know,
ignore ignore all this at yourown peril.
It really works.
I mean, these are scientificallybacked, this is all empirical,
empirical science with studiesand you know, groups of people
that they have researched, andit actually works.
So you hear mantra and you'relike, oh my gosh, like eye roll.
(33:52):
And then you're like, thatactually helped me in my life.
Yeah.
It works.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_03 (33:57):
I want to talk a little bit.
I want to go back to the legalprofession a little bit.
Um, and I want to talk aboutpositive psychology in the legal
profession, but um, I'm gonnaread some scary statistics from
your book.
Okay.
So you you wrote Mindset Masteryfor Lawyers, and I read it, and
it was very good.
Also short, loved that.
Short, but a mini book.
(34:18):
Yeah.
So I part of the reason I wantto like share these is because a
lot of our listeners are notlawyers, and um, we allude to it
quite a bit on here, given mylife.
But you wrote a 2023 ALM andLaw.com Compass Mental Health
Survey of the legal professionrevealed that 71% of the 3,000
(34:41):
attorneys surveyed experiencedregular anxiety, and roughly 38%
dealt with symptoms ofdepression.
When asked about specificindicators of mental health
challenges, more than 50% ofsurveyed lawyers said they felt
a sense of failure orself-doubt, lost emotion, felt
increasingly cynical andnegative, and had decreased
(35:02):
satisfaction and sense ofaccomplishment.
More than 60% said they feltoverwhelmed, irritable, and
exhausted, or struggled toconcentrate.
More than 76% of surveyedlawyers blamed their work
environment for these problems,citing billiable hour pressures,
the inability to disconnect andlack of sleep.
But 49% of lawyers also reportedfeeling that mental health
(35:25):
problems and substance abusewere at a crisis level in the
legal profession up from about44% in 2022.
And I actually don't know whatthe current substance abuse
stats are.
Um they're very widelyavailable.
We've heard them all.
Um and I I think there's a hugeproblem in the legal profession
(35:46):
of mental health.
I've known multiple attorneyswho've committed suicide.
It is not unusual for us to hearstories.
And I just think I don't knowhow much people outside of the
legal profession, I think theyunderstand like it's a hard
profession.
We all joke about it, we knowabout it, but the actual
(36:07):
statistics are terrifying.
And when people ask me if theyshould go to law school, I
generally say no.
Not unless, one, you can do itdebt-free.
And two, you have a very, veryclear goal of what you're going
to do with it.
Yeah.
And three, if your identity isrooted in something solid.
Yes.
Because I just fear for whatthat can do, especially,
(36:30):
frankly, to women.
I agree.
So I'm curious, I mean, Iobviously I just I have a lot of
thoughts on where it's allcoming from.
There's a lot of other stats,but how do you feel that your
work and like positivepsychology could help start to
create some change in the legalprofession?
SPEAKER_00 (36:51):
Yeah, great question.
Um, and it's interesting becausewhen I when I I will speak at
law firms and um will consultwith law firm leadership
periodically.
Um I speak at law firms quitefrequently.
And no like those stats that youjust recited, like they're not
(37:11):
no one is phased by themanymore.
SPEAKER_02 (37:13):
No.
SPEAKER_00 (37:14):
That's that's the awful thing, right?
Like everyone's like, yeah, ifyou have spent any time in the
legal profession, you are notsurprised in the least by this.
Um I I am very quick to telllawyers in particular, and
especially when I'm speaking infront of a group, because of
course you you don't want thingsto be taken the wrong way, and
(37:34):
you know, you get a comment atthe end.
I'm very quick to say thatpositive psychology is by no
means like a panacea, like, oh,you know, like just do perma and
everything is gonna be great.
That's that's not at all what Imean.
Um, you know, if you have, well,I think everyone needs a
therapist, like literally.
I think the world would be awonderful place if everyone had
(37:54):
a therapist.
Um, but if you are sufferingfrom depression or anxiety, um
you should seek therapy and youshould seek help for substance
abuse.
Oh my gosh, a thousand percent.
What I think is beautiful aboutpositive psychology and what
gives me hope and a lot of myclients a lot of hope is
(38:16):
honestly the agency that itprovides.
Like the concept that you havethe ability to impact your own
fulfillment to me was likemind-blowing when I when I first
learned about positivepsychology.
Um, I I was I was going througha particularly difficult time.
(38:37):
Um, and I I think it was justjust such a breath of fresh air
to to learn, like, oh, like I Iyou're telling me that I can do
these things, and it's it'sreally all within my control.
Like I to a certain extent, likeI can impact my own happiness um
profoundly by doing certainthings.
(39:00):
Um, I mentioned this in thebook, but there's a positive
psychologist um named SoniaLubermirski, and she wrote a
book called The How ofHappiness.
And she researched, shebasically measured happiness um
over long periods of time withdifferent different groups of
(39:21):
people.
And she came up with somethingcalled the um, I think it's a
40% principle or the 40% theory.
And basically, what she came tounderstand was that if you look
at a person and their and theirmeasurable happiness, meaning
the happiness that they are ableto articulate, and you look at
them over a long period of time,50% of their of their happiness,
(39:45):
of their contentment, theirfulfillment is kind of a genetic
base uh baseline.
It's kind of a set point.
So think about that.
Like, you know, if if you andyour family members all are, you
know, at a they sh you share asimilarity in terms of affect
and fulfillment, that's maybe athing.
(40:07):
Okay.
So a lot of it is heritable.
40% uh 10%, excuse me, 10% ofmeasurable happiness are life
circumstances.
And that I I I'm always like,take a moment to just let that
sink in for a moment.
Because we put so much on lifecircumstances.
So when I get that job, when Iget married, when I get the uh
(40:30):
the house, when I get to buy thehouse, when I get to buy the
vacation home, right?
It's it's like the hedonictreadmill of like always, you
know, need needing more andmore.
Um, that's only 10% of these,this you know, wide swath of
people they they were followingfor years, only 10% of their
happiness was based on the lifecircumstances that they thought
previously was gonna make themso happy, right?
(40:53):
40% if we're doing the math,right?
40% is left.
And that's intentionalactivities.
Okay.
That's crazy to me.
And that's where the hope for mecomes in.
Intentional activities are theway you think.
Yes, that's at that'sintentional.
That's an activity.
That's an intentional activity,how you think.
Um, and then just habits anddifferent things you can do,
(41:14):
interventions, things you can doon your in your daily life to
impact happiness.
So 40% of your happiness you canimpact by the way you think, and
that's where mindsets come in.
Um, and and the activities youdo on a daily basis.
SPEAKER_03 (41:29):
I mean, I think that's very encouraging to hear.
Um, do you have any activitiesthat you could share with our
audience?
Like very just like, hey, youcould go forth, go forth
tomorrow.
SPEAKER_00 (41:40):
Yes, a very brief one, and it's like the best one.
Um, and and positive psychologyfolks love it because it's easy
and um it's the impact is nextlevel.
So it's focused on gratitudebecause gratitude is the one uh
trait, attribute that a personhas that can really impact them
(42:01):
so profoundly.
I mean, it's so profound thateven your like cardiovascular
and immune um system are willwill see a response.
Oh wow.
It's that's how big a dealgratitude is.
Again, this is um, you know,ignore this at your own peril.
That then Barb Barb Fredericksonsaid this on a Zoom call I was
(42:21):
on a couple of days ago.
Um, and she's this amazingpositive psychologist.
Ignore this at your own peril.
Um I and I say this to the folkswho are like a gratitude
journal, so that sounds lame.
Like, okay, well.
Um, so this one particularactivity is called What Went
Well.
And it is literally before yougo to bed every night, write
three things down in a journal.
(42:44):
Three things that went well thatday.
SPEAKER_03 (42:46):
Okay.
SPEAKER_00 (42:47):
And these can be big things, these can be like I
closed the deal, I bought ahouse, or it can be little
things like my pumpkin spicelatte was delicious.
It was the weather was great,that kind of thing.
And you do this um consistentlyover the course of a week or two
weeks, and it's easy.
You want to keep doing it, whichis neat.
(43:09):
Um, it can really impact youroutlook.
Um, I'll say it's hard and it'shard.
Like on days when I'm having abad day in a cole, I'm like, I
don't know what this is not,this is dumb.
This is straight up dumb.
But it really is helpful to gothrough the day and be like,
well, this day was a dumpsterfire.
And yet, you know, I fin I sentthat email that I'd been waiting
(43:31):
to send for like two weeks.
That was that was, you know, oneof the shining moments of my
day.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_03 (43:36):
What went well writing three things each night?
Okay.
I will I will commit to doingthat.
Do it.
And I will report back to theaudience.
Should I do like two weeks?
Do two weeks, two weeks.
Okay.
I will do it.
Good.
Um, what is something you'reobsessing over lately?
Um, I'm obsessed.
SPEAKER_00 (43:56):
Um I am I'm in a I'm in a health mode.
I'm like, I'm in, I'm focusingon health.
So I have been obsessing overlike functional health and sort
of I don't know, vitamins andsupplements.
I'm also, Nicole, 45 and I'm inperimenopause.
(44:18):
So I need all my supplements.
Yep.
And I so I'm in that stage oflife life where this makes so
much sense.
Like I need all my supplementsand I need, you know, th random
things hurt.
So like so I'm like, yeah, I'mgonna focus on my health.
So um, you know, just justnavigating like what I'm eating
that perhaps is not like doingdoing well for me.
SPEAKER_03 (44:40):
Yeah.
I have a book for you offlinenow because I've already shared
it many times.
So that's what I'm obsessingover.
Um that's understandable, yeah.
Um, I am obsessing over how tonot stress as much.
I noticed it this week.
Um I so when I wake up in themiddle of the night and I can't
(45:03):
fall asleep and I startcleaning.
Oh no, it's a sign.
And that happened Friday.
So I was like, uh-oh.
I have some ideas.
So I'm like really trying totake an inventory of what my
next two weeks look like andquiet, get quiet.
Quiet.
Exactly.
The warning signs are going off.
(45:23):
So we'll figure it out.
Um, and do you have arecommendation for our audience?
SPEAKER_00 (45:29):
Yeah.
And I don't know if this isoriginal, but I've been I have
been watching The Gilded Age.
SPEAKER_03 (45:33):
Do you watch Guild?
I have not, but I've heard goodthings about it.
SPEAKER_00 (45:37):
It's really good.
Yeah.
It's it's the first episode isslow and then you're just
hooked.
Okay.
Um, and then I tried to get myhusband into it and he was just
not into it.
So it's it has been my treadmillshow where I don't walk and I
watch it, and it's fantastic.
And the outfits are just nextlevel.
Okay.
SPEAKER_03 (45:54):
I think I heard it like um not Bridgerton for US,
but the because right, it's inthe US.
Yes, right, about likeVanderbilt or something.
No, sexy.
SPEAKER_00 (46:03):
But it's not sexy.
Okay.
Downtown Abbey-esque.
Yes, it's very downtown Abbey.
That's how someone described itto me.
Okay.
Um it's it's but also likethere's like a little bit of
Bridgerton.
It's again, it's not sexy, butit it is like there is um,
there's there's romance andlike, you know, mayhem.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_03 (46:22):
I I'll add it to my list.
So my recommendation is more forour Nashville contingent.
Um, I go to the Richland FarmersMarket almost every week and
Hidden Holler Farms, they are sogood.
I get my eggs from them, and Ican't eat eggs that aren't
local.
And so I I love my eggs.
(46:43):
The guy's super nice.
He started recognizing me, andthen they have really good like
chicken breasts and everything.
Wait, where is so where is it?
Uh Richland, you know, do youknow the Richland Farmers Market
off of Charlotte Saturdays from9 to noon?
I wasn't getting super busy.
SPEAKER_00 (46:58):
Okay, no good to know.
SPEAKER_03 (46:59):
Yep, so they're great.
Someone had recommended it tome, and like there's always a
long line, so I try to get thereearly.
Oh my gosh, I love so I love thefarmers market.
I do too.
Is I like it better in thespring or fall because it was
really hot yesterday and you'rejust like standing in all these
lines.
The weather's not okay.
(47:19):
No, it's it's what'd you say,97?
SPEAKER_00 (47:21):
It was yeah, it was like it was 90.
Well, we did our Christmas cardphotos yesterday, which was
insane.
So we I I got my childrendressed up in um like sweaters
and like corduroy outfits.
And oh, I'm sure they'reliterally not literally, but
that was the vibe.
It was like, okay, we're youknow, it's Merry Christmas, and
it was it was 92 degrees.
Oh my gosh.
(47:42):
Well, what are you lookingforward to this week?
Um, I I'm looking forward to aJuno event that we have on
Friday.
I'm going to.
Oh, I love it.
I'm so excited.
Yeah.
So we have um a speaker seriescoffee event on Friday morning.
And my good friend um and Junoboard member, uh, Nadine Zach,
will be um speaking.
(48:03):
And she is talking about leavingthe corporate life and starting
your own business and her exyeah in that.
It's it's pretty salient to manyJuno members and her experience
um doing that herself.
And she left corporate HR andhas launched her own HR company,
and they are blowing it out ofthe water.
(48:25):
I mean, she is, they are so theyare just doing it really well.
Cool.
She'll have a lot to share.
SPEAKER_03 (48:30):
I'm excited about it.
Yeah, unfortunately for ourlisteners, that will be passed.
So look for other Juno events inthe future.
Yes.
Um, I'm really excited becauseI'm going to a cabin next
weekend with my friend, andwe're going down by South
Cumberland State Park so we cango hiking and everything.
Oh, I love that.
And I love that park.
So it's gonna be very quiet.
Good nature.
(48:51):
Exactly.
Quiet nature waterfalls.
I'm excited.
So um, where can people findyou?
SPEAKER_00 (48:58):
So let's see.
So you're mindsetcoach.com orJunoWomen.com.
And then I'm also on Instagram,and it's Jackie.cascerano.
And my very long Italian lastname, thanks to my husband, is
C-A-S-C-A-R-A-N-O.
So Jackie.cascerano.
(49:19):
Okay.
SPEAKER_03 (49:20):
We'll make sure to link it.
Get sense if you don't have togo Googling that.
Well, thank you so much forbeing here.
Thank you very much.
This is so fun.
Great.
I always want it to be fun.
So um, and thank you guys forlistening.
Please follow us wherever youlisten to podcasts, and make
sure to subscribe to our YouTubechannel.
I'll see you next week.
The end.
(49:40):
Thanks for listening to mycrunchy zen era.
Please subscribe and leave areview wherever you listen to
your podcasts.
This podcast is produced by me,Nicole Swisher, and my good
friends Summer Harcup and LizCoulter.
Editing is by Drew HarrisonMedia, and recording is done by
Logos Creative in Nashville,Tennessee.
Thanks for hanging out.
(50:00):
We'll be back next week.
What's something crunchy or Zen that you've done
lately?
So I am really into the pursuitof quiet these days.
Okay.
So I think the world is so loud.
My my world is really loud.
I have three children and a loudhusband and uh two jobs, and I'm
also in grad school.
(00:20):
So there's so much.
And I just feel like for mepersonally, and I do, I think
for women generally, there's somuch stimuli.
So I have been in the pursuit ofquiet.
And whether Nicole, that is inlike quiet time in the morning
on my like rocking chair, that'swonderful.
(00:41):
I've also done a quiet, a quietday.
Have you done a quiet day?
No.
It's insane.
So you I I went, it wasorganized by this ministry, and
you go to someone's house, andit's legit what it sounds like,
which is like you do not speakfor a day.
And they give you um likejournal prompts and whatnot, so
(01:04):
you have something to do, but itis profound.
You feel you, you, you walk outof it feeling really refreshed
and really clear.
SPEAKER_03 (01:14):
Wow.
It's interesting because off thetop of my head, I can think of
two guests recently who havekind of alluded to that as well.
And I feel like it's reallybecoming a theme.
It's definitely a theme in mylife.
I was texting a friend earlierand I was like, how do people do
these slow lives?
Like, right?
Where do like what do they do?
(01:35):
I want that.
She was like, What are youtalking about?
I was like, here's a YouTubevideo.
Yeah, tell me what you thinkthey got here.
But it is, it's kind offollowing that quiet and calm
and like, yes.
I I've heard someone say thatlike in the past, we only got
the news once a day, and then wegot it twice a day, and now we
get it constantly, and we're notmeant to get it constantly.
SPEAKER_00 (01:57):
I mean, I think about the cortisol spikes
throughout the day, just I mean,through that alone, which is
like one component of thebarrage of things we should not
be exposed to at all times.
SPEAKER_03 (02:07):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (02:08):
Okay, I like that quiet day.
So quiet, my pursuit of quiet ismy crunchy zen.
SPEAKER_03 (02:12):
I like it.
Welcome to my crunchy zen era.
Uh, this is a weekly podcastfilled with a little fun, a
little humor, and a whole lot ofcuriosity.
I'm your host, Nicole Swisher,and today I am joined by my
(02:34):
guest, Jackie Onya Cascarano.
Welcome.
Thank you.
Jackie owns two businesses.
Um, your mindset coach, which isa coaching business specifically
for lawyers, and Juno, which iswhy don't you tell me what Juno
is exactly?
SPEAKER_00 (02:52):
So Juno Women's Collective is a network for
women who are seeking clarity.
I would say clarity and momentumin their next professional
chapters.
So it is a mix of women who arecoming from different
backgrounds, but they all sharesomething in common, which is
(03:12):
that they're in a transition ofsome sort professionally.
They're trying to figure outwhat's next.
Or some of them are about tolaunch a business.
They like they know what's next,but they just want support of a
community and more clarity.
SPEAKER_03 (03:26):
Gotcha.
I like that.
I feel like we all need that alittle bit.
For sure.
Yeah.
Yeah.
So tell me what's a memory thatyou wish you could relive and
why.
SPEAKER_00 (03:36):
Yeah.
Um, so I was thinking aboutthis.
I and I was wondering, like,should this be some sort of
profound memory, like my weddingday or something like that?
And then I was like, no, youknow what?
It's um, I go on girls' weekendsonce a year with my two best
girlfriends from high school.
So I have known these girls,these ladies, because I'm 45.
(03:58):
I like to think of myself as agirl.
I've known these girls since wewere like 13 and 14.
And we live in different cities.
And every time we see eachother, we have the most fun.
And like we laugh so hard wecry.
And that those are the memoriesI would love to relive, like on
a like a daily basis.
It's just like the joy and likebelly laughs, and like we don't
(04:21):
even, we don't even sayanything.
It's like a look and we juststart cracking up.
And that's that's joyful andbeautiful.
I would love to relive thatmore.
SPEAKER_03 (04:29):
It's fun when you've had friends for so long that
they know your body language,they know your facial
expressions.
Like you can't really get awaywith anything.
SPEAKER_00 (04:38):
A thousand percent.
And like the jokes persist like30, 30 years later, it's like
the same joke, which isphenomenal.
SPEAKER_03 (04:46):
That's what my sister and I were like.
When we play um catchphrase, weare unbeatable.
Love's amazing.
Love that.
Yeah.
So, Jackie, I'm really excitedto have you here today.
Um, as a lawyer, as a woman whowe all go through like a lot of
career changes, and I'mfascinated by what you've put
(05:07):
together.
Can you tell me more about yourcoaching business?
Yes.
SPEAKER_00 (05:12):
So I'm a la I am a former attorney.
So I used to practice law andpivoted to advising in law
schools.
So, like my coaching, I havelike a coaching counseling bone
that like I was um, it was uhreally neat to use that in a law
(05:32):
school setting.
Um, so I have been doingcoaching in some capacity for 15
years or so.
Um I focus on attorneys in yourmindset coach because of course
I used to be one, so I canreally identify with a what a
lot of female attorneys aregoing through.
And it's it's a toughprofession, like Nicole, you
(05:57):
know this.
It's just it's just a reallytough profession, period, just
like generally.
And then I think that if you areum a woman uh that adds to it.
I think I do think it's morechallenging for women for a
variety of reasons.
And then I think if you're thekind of person who is seeking,
if you're the kind of personwho's seeking balance and
(06:22):
harmony and fulfillmentprofessionally, the the legal
profession can be really hard.
So so I encounter a lot of womenthat want to be good at what
they do.
So they they want to be goodlawyers.
Maybe they they even are goodlawyers, like they're like, I'm
good at this, and they're alsonot particularly happy in their
(06:42):
work.
So they want to be happy intheir work and successful in
their work.
And that's there's a fallacy, Ithink, that lawyers in
particular can't have that.
It's like you gotta like endure.
Like if you want to besuccessful, you have to endure
the lifestyle that comes withit.
Um, or you could just be happyand not be a lawyer, you know?
So it's like there is a sweetspot.
(07:03):
It takes work, uh, but that'swhat that's what I do with a lot
of lawyer, um, lawyer clientswithin my work.
SPEAKER_03 (07:09):
Do you focus more on women or do you take men and
women as your clients?
SPEAKER_00 (07:15):
I work with both men and women.
I naturally just have tended touh have more female clients.
SPEAKER_03 (07:21):
And what do you think it is about women that
makes the legal profession moredifficult?
SPEAKER_00 (07:27):
Um I think there are just systemic issues.
And we've talked about this.
Um I mean I think the thepatriarchy was the answer.
The patriarchy.
Um I think there are systemicissues um that make it more
challenging for for a femalehuman to be, you know, in a in
the legal profession.
(07:48):
I think it's a lot better thanit used to be.
So when I was when I was ayounger, um, when I was a young
associate in the mid-2000s, um,you know, we I mean, there was a
women's committee, I'm sure, butthere there weren't, you know,
uh DEI B initiatives like thereare today.
And of course, some of them aregoing to the way falling to the
(08:10):
wayside uh for politicalreasons, but you know, they
exist and they are people arepaying attention to them.
Belonging is a thing now.
Um and it wasn't like that inthe early to mid-2000s for sure.
So it's certainly gotten better,but I think that just for women,
um, it it can be hard when youknow the majority of partners in
(08:33):
a law firm are men.
And if you are a woman who wantsto have both a career and a
family, it's just challenging inany profession.
But specifically, I think in thelegal profession, it's just
really, really hard.
SPEAKER_03 (08:48):
It is.
I mean, I I don't have children,but I've watched a number of my
female colleagues go throughgoing on maternity leave.
And one thing that I haveobserved is that as they get
closer, I would say like amonth, because now everyone's
thinking, well, the baby couldcome early too.
(09:09):
Everything, everything starts tobe taken off their plate.
Yeah.
And so their hours drop.
And a most of the time, I don'tknow if our listeners know this,
like your hours as a lawyer,your billable hours directly
relate to what you're gonna getpaid, salary, bonus, reviews,
everything, what kinds of umopportunities you get at the
(09:30):
firm, because the higher yourbilling, the more valuable you
are in most firms.
And so they have to like startto wean off projects to the
point where they might havealmost nothing to do for a week
or two.
Then they're gone on maternityleave, and then they come back
and they often don't get theirwork back because somebody else
has now taken over.
(09:51):
And some things I've heard is Imean, it's just easier, the
client's used to it.
And so now they have to likefight to get work back while
also balancing being a new momand all that comes with that.
And so I've I felt I feel verystrongly about that.
I don't know what the answer is.
One thing I've always felt isthat the men have to take
(10:13):
paternity leave.
Yeah.
Like I think friendshiprequires.
But anyway, that when you speakto that, that's something that I
feel very strongly about, eventhough I I've never experienced
it as a woman in that way.
Um, I've just seen it happenover and over again.
And it's I've seen my friendscrying in their offices
repeatedly.
SPEAKER_00 (10:34):
It's hard.
And then and then they'll comeback and there's there's no such
thing as part-time.
No, there's no like like they'llthey'll just pay you half of
what you used to get paid, butbut you're not you're not
working half as much.
It's just so amorphous.
So that's another thing I hearwith people that are trying to
get back and they're trying toreclaim that.
Um I don't, it's it's it'ssystemic.
So I mean there are always theseinitiatives trying to like, you
(10:56):
know, rewire the legalprofession.
And it's like, oh, well, it'sthat's hard.
It's just really hard.
And and the the words you usedwhere it's um basically the more
you bill, the more valuable youare.
I mean, like womp womp.
Like it it's it's true.
And then also like, you know,what are we telling ourselves
every day when we go to bed atnight?
(11:17):
The more I the more hours Ibill, the more valuable I am.
Yep.
I mean, you know, obviously thatmeans that pertains to work, but
there's a part of that that Ithink you you just sort of
absorb.
SPEAKER_03 (11:27):
Yeah.
And so the other, I mean, wecould go so far into the legal
profession, but I will I'll saylike the other thing that is
challenging is then if you'reefficient, if you don't bill as
much time because actually thatproject didn't take as much
time, um, you're penalized forit.
And frankly, I've always beenthe type of lawyer that I don't
(11:51):
run the clock.
I get the work done, I get itdone efficiently.
And I know of people who are notthat way.
And so my my bonuses weren't asmuch.
And yeah, we'll stop there withthat.
But I it is it's I I I thinkthere should be a way to change
(12:11):
it.
I just I don't know what it is.
Yeah.
Um anyway, so why why did youswitch from being a lawyer
originally?
SPEAKER_00 (12:19):
Yeah.
Um, so I was an attorney, I wasa litigator.
I practiced in Philly.
Um only for a couple of years,actually.
I was maybe I was an attorneymaybe for four years.
I was not not, I did notpractice for very long.
SPEAKER_03 (12:33):
Did you know your like the first year, did you
know it was like I don't want tokeep doing this, or did it take
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (12:39):
I mean, I think I probably knew in law school.
Okay.
I went to law school.
I had I had a um a sudden deathin the family at the end of
college, and life was just kindof crazy.
And then I was like, oh, I gotinto a good law school.
I guess I'll just go.
Like it was one of thosesituations where, you know, when
you're 22, you are like a baby.
(13:00):
Like part of the brain really islike literally not formed.
Um, so I was dealing withpersonal stuff, and then I got
into a good law school, and mymom was like, Go to law school.
And it was also after 9-11, solike the economy was crazy
pants.
Yeah.
So I was like, Well, I mean,grad school sounds good.
So I went to law school and whenI first started practicing, I
(13:21):
basically kind of fell into apractice area that wasn't really
well suited for my personalitytype.
I'm a I'm a coach counselortype, and I was um a litigator.
I was doing insurance defenselitigation, and I didn't really
feel like I was helping anybodynecessarily.
(13:41):
So I knew it was gonna beshort-lived, or I, or I knew I
needed to pivot.
But as you know, again, and thisis not like an interview on the
legal industry, but this is onefacet of it.
It's really hard to changepractice areas.
Really hard, yep.
Yeah.
Um, and especially and then itwas 2008, and the economy was
also, you know, bananas again uhfor the recession.
(14:02):
So at that point, I was like,I'm just I was like, this is God
telling me to try somethingelse.
Yeah.
So um I then pivoted to work atuh a law school, which was so
fun and really cool.
And I loved working withstudents.
Um and I was I worked in thecareer services office um at two
law schools.
Which law schools were they?
So I worked at Notre Dame.
(14:23):
Okay, and I got my husband, Isaid to my husband, who's an
entrepreneur, we had aone-year-old baby at the time.
I was like, hey, so if I justapply to a bunch of law schools
around the country, would you begame to move somewhere?
And uh and he's like, Yeah,because he could work from
wherever.
So we moved to South Bend,Indiana.
We lived there for two years,and I loved it there.
(14:45):
It was so it was such a greatjob.
Um, but he's from Florida, so hewas really cold.
You get that.
It was so cold.
The man was so cold.
You're from Minnesota, is it?
You get it.
Um the Midwest is is a differentbrand of freezing.
Um, and then we moved toNashville, where I worked at
Vanderbilt Law School.
SPEAKER_03 (15:04):
Okay.
SPEAKER_00 (15:05):
That is how I ended up in.
SPEAKER_03 (15:06):
That's how you ended up here.
Yeah.
Cool.
So with these different hatsthat you've worn over the years,
have you seen like there's kindof this pattern or through line
where you can see how yourstrengths were being used and
kind of evolved to where you aretoday?
SPEAKER_00 (15:21):
Yeah.
I mean, I think the the threadthat ties all of what I do
together and has really, since Istopped being an attorney,
frankly, um, is is reallycounseling and coaching.
So I I see myself as an advocatefor others.
Um, I love to, I feel fulfilledwhen I can take a situation
(15:46):
that's kind of messy and helpsomeone find a path in it.
So that's really fulfilling tome.
And that's what I did when I wasat, you know, the two law
schools.
Um, that's certainly what I docoaching individually with
attorneys.
And then with Juno, um, that'sexactly what we do.
It's it's for Juno, you'reyou're placed in a cohort
(16:09):
essentially, and you have acurriculum and you're working
through, you know, how to getthat clarity.
So again, it's that like guidingsomebody through a situation
that's kind of messy and makingit neater and clearer.
How long has Juno been around?
So Juno's been around for abouta year and a half.
Okay.
Um, so it's relatively new andum it's a startup and um it's
(16:35):
great.
It's growing organically, andit's absolutely the most fun
thing I've done.
And I felt very, I felt verycalled to do it.
I'm not, I'm not theentrepreneur type.
Um my husband is.
I'm not.
I love um, I'm an Enneagram six.
I don't know if you're anEnneagram person.
Yeah.
(16:55):
Um, so we love safety and likestability.
Um so I I don't know how Idecided to launch a business.
Two businesses.
Yeah, two businesses, right?
Yeah.
The one, the your mindset coachis sort of very reliant on me.
Okay.
It's just my coaching practice.
But you're right.
See, I'm not giving myselfenough credit for the fact that
it is a business.
(17:16):
Um, but Juno is more out there.
Um, I mean, there's, you know,we're we're seeking members and
and whatnot.
But I felt very called to do itbecause I knew when I, when I
was going through a career pivotyears ago, I felt very isolated.
And I remember recently before,before launching Juno, I had
(17:38):
coffee.
I was I was networking a lotbecause I was um at that
particular stage of life.
I was like in my networking era,and I kept on coming into
contact with women who weresaying, I'm I'm I'm wanting
something more.
I don't know what I want, but Ifeel a stirring for something
different.
(17:59):
And I feel really alone in thisand I don't know what to do.
And I just kept on running intowomen who were seeking a
community.
And I was like, wow, that thatthat means something.
SPEAKER_03 (18:10):
Yeah.
I feel like we there aredifferent communities for
different times in your life.
Yeah.
And um I've been noticing thatfor myself lately.
And I think it is something youhave to be extremely intentional
about.
That's part of what actuallybrought me to Nashville was I
just felt very isolated inMinnesota.
(18:33):
Um there were a lot of thingsgoing on in Minneapolis, and I
just I just started noticing allmy friends were kind of getting
married, doing their own thing,or they were friends from work,
which to what extent they werelike healthy friendships.
I I mean I could say, but we Idon't want to go into it, but it
just wasn't uplifting,fulfilling, and I just was
(18:57):
feeling called to try somethingdifferent.
And so when I came to Nashville,I was like, I am gonna be very
intentional about this.
And now some of my community Imet in the first year, like
quite a few have left Nashville.
And so now I'm kind of like, allright, I need to search that out
again.
Yeah, yeah.
Community is really important.
Yeah.
(19:18):
Um, so you said you felt calledto start Juno.
Was there any like moment whereit was like, this is it?
Like I have to do this.
SPEAKER_00 (19:28):
Um it was several moments.
So I so Juno runs on a cohortmodel, as I mentioned.
So it's it's a small group ofwomen uh curated um that are in
this group in a group together.
We call them circles.
And the reason I decided tomodel it off um or model it like
(19:51):
that was because I was modelingit off of um an entrepreneurs
group my husband was in.
There's um an entrepreneursorganization.
It's actually nationwide, uh,but he was a part of it in
Nashville called EO, literallyvery kitchen.
Um there's a female um uhversion of that called Brain
Trust.
So they're I am so familiar withBrain Trust.
SPEAKER_03 (20:13):
I've actually like given an award of Brain Trust.
Really?
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (20:16):
Yeah.
So there are these twoorganizations that are um really
incredible and they are theyhave this a similar model where
you're in this group, it's allconfidential, you get together
every couple of weeks.
It's like group therapy, um, andit's very much focused.
Theirs is very much focused onyour business.
SPEAKER_03 (20:36):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (20:36):
Okay.
And my husband was going throughit and he was just thriving.
And I got very incensed one day.
And I was like, why is there notsomething like that for me?
I wasn't an entrepreneur yet.
Um, so I'm like, well, I can'tjoin.
I'm not an entrepreneur.
I don't have a business.
Um, and then even if I were tolaunch a business, there are
(20:57):
these uh revenue thresholds foreach.
So EO is like a million dollars.
Yeah.
Right.
That's that takes a while.
Yeah.
Um, brain trust, I don't, Idon't know what it is off top.
I think it's last time Ichecked, it was$100,000.
It could be less now.
SPEAKER_03 (21:11):
I think that's correct.
SPEAKER_00 (21:12):
Yeah.
But but that's a threshold.
And if you are a woman who isjust launching a business, um
that's gonna, that's gonna takea little bit to get to that
$100,000 threshold for revenue.
So I was very incensed and waslike telling my husband, I was
like, I don't understand why Idon't have access to something
like this.
And I felt like he had such thethings they were doing were so
(21:39):
cool and so focused on personaland professional growth.
And I kind of felt like it wasbeing um gatekeep a little bit.
It's like, well, why don'taverage normal women have access
to all this great material thatyou business owners, you know,
have access to.
SPEAKER_03 (21:59):
Yeah.
And thus Juno was born.
SPEAKER_00 (22:01):
So now I started Juno, yeah.
And and I worked the curriculumfor Juno is different.
I mean, I it's personally it'spersonal growth focused for
professional fulfillment andprofessional momentum.
So the the ethos of Juno isreally you need to figure out
(22:22):
yourself before you can figureout what you want to do next.
You know, that's I think achallenge.
SPEAKER_03 (22:27):
Yeah.
And part of that is involvedinvolves positive psychology,
right?
Yes.
And also in your coachingpractice, you involve that.
Can you tell me more about whatthat is?
SPEAKER_00 (22:38):
Yeah.
So positive psychology is a umit is a type of psychology
different than mainstreampsychology.
It was founded in the early2000s at the University of
Pennsylvania by um a gentlemannamed Martin Seligman.
And he's basically like thegrandfather of positive
(22:59):
psychology.
And it differs from mainstreampsychology in that mainstream
psychology has always focused onkind of the bad stuff in the
human mind, like whatever youmight find in the DSM, right?
So like anxiety or depression orschizophrenia, like all the bad
stuff we hear about when we'reum when you're taking like
abnormal psych in college, likeall the bad stuff.
(23:21):
And positive psychology, thepremise is basically like if you
were to take a human mind andtake all the bad stuff out, like
take the depression and theanxiety and take it out.
Um, would that, you know, humanmind, would that person be a
happy, uh thriving, fulfilledperson?
Not necessarily.
(23:42):
They would just be, you know,kind of a blank slate.
How do you make that person kindof run on all cylinders?
How do you help that personthrive and be um a flourishing
human being?
Because why like why else are weon this earth except to thrive
and to be the best versions ofourselves?
So that's that's the approach ofpositive psychology.
(24:03):
And I incorporate it um a lotinto my coaching uh with lawyers
and and with anyone.
Um, and then for Juno, it isreally, you know, the the
curriculum is based on positivepsychology.
So the curriculum piece forevery Juno meeting that each
circle has, there's a differentlike facet of positive
(24:25):
psychology that they dig into.
SPEAKER_03 (24:27):
And is it are there really specific activities or
conversations or way of likechanging how you're framing
things that that is kind of thefocus of the curriculum?
SPEAKER_00 (24:44):
There are there are several.
The the one, I think,foundational um lens through
which to look at um, you know,your life if you're looking at
it from a positive positivepsychology perspective is an
acronym uh called PERMA.
So P-E-R-M-A.
And that's D and it's basicallythe five dimensions of human
(25:06):
flourishing.
So the P is for positivefeelings or positive emotions,
and that's exactly what itsounds like, right?
You're the the experience ofpositivity throughout your day,
right?
Joy, curiosity, awe, wonder.
Um, E is the next one.
E is for engagement or flow,like when you're in that state
(25:28):
where things are um like youdon't even feel time going by,
like you're just really enjoyingwhat you're doing.
Flow happens or engagement, flowhappens when you are equally
matching a strength to achallenge.
And that's that's when you're inreally, a really good flow.
If the challenge is a little toohard for your strength, think
about it, you wouldn't be inflow.
(25:48):
It'd be like too hard.
Yeah.
But if it was also too easy, youwould also not be in flow.
A lot of people, um, I like tosay I'm not sporty, like I'm not
a sporty person, but I hear alot of sporty people tell me
like when they play pickleball,for example, or like basketball,
they they have a lot of flow.
Yeah.
Not anything I would have Iwould know about.
Um the next one is R, and that'sfor relationships.
(26:10):
And that goes back to theconversation about community.
Yeah.
So like the depth ofrelationships really matters.
Um, you know, how authentic youcan be, you know, in a group of
friends, family, um, just thecommunity, having a community
where you can be your authenticself.
Uh the next one is M formeaning, and that's basically
(26:33):
identifying with somethingbigger than yourself.
Uh, that can be faith.
Um, a lot of people will have Mfor meaning in their careers and
in their work, and that's reallycool.
That's a beautiful thing ifyou're able to do that and feel
that on a daily basis.
Yeah.
And then the last one is A.
So for perma, A.
(26:54):
And that's achievement.
And that's basically pursuinggoals, like setting goals for
yourself and pursuing them.
That is like we're wired forthat.
And even I'm not, I'm actuallynot competitive.
I'm I'm my children and myhusband are crazy competitive.
So we play Monopoly.
I'm like, I'm not having fun.
Like you guys, I don't, I don'twanna, this is this is crazy.
(27:16):
And yet I still am driven to seta goal for myself and achieve it
and make progress towards it.
So we're kind of wired for that.
SPEAKER_03 (27:26):
Does it have to be a big goal or can there be like
smaller ones?
SPEAKER_00 (27:32):
Yeah, they can be certainly be smaller ones, yeah.
Um, and I think, and that forJuno, that's something we work
on for sure, is like justidentifying bigger long-term
goals and then also smallerlittle G goals.
Um and then the important thingto know about PERMA is that none
of those dimensions are moredeterminative per se of your
(27:56):
overall flourishing andhappiness, but they all matter.
And it's like the the deficiencyof one is important.
So what we do is, you know, onething we'll do early is just
sort of try to analyze yourperma levels, right?
Like which one is lower.
That's interesting.
(28:16):
And it's and it's good, it'sit's just being aware of it's
actually really good.
SPEAKER_03 (28:20):
Yeah.
I'm like thinking it through.
I'm like, what would what wouldI be low on?
SPEAKER_00 (28:25):
Yeah, and you don't, and sometimes you don't even
realize it, you know, yeah.
Yeah.
Um, wow.
Or my relationships could bebetter.
Or and also sometimes you'rejust in like, you know, like a
chapter of life where maybeyou're not gonna have a lot of
meaning because you're you know,you're focused on something
else.
Like maybe you're maybe it's orit's shifts, like maybe you're
(28:49):
on maternity leave and yourmeaning is now squarely, you
have meaning, but it's it is noit's not professional anymore.
Like you are focused onsomething else.
Um or to give yourself a littlebit of grace in terms of like,
you know, I'm I I just got ahealth diagnosis.
No wonder my positive emotionsare not as high as they would
(29:11):
they could be.
Right.
SPEAKER_03 (29:13):
Yeah.
And do you have examples ofwhether it's from uh Martin
Seligman's work or what you'veobserved personally of how
incorporative psychology insomeone's life has caused a lot
of change for them?
SPEAKER_00 (29:30):
Yeah, I mean, I have so many clients.
I mean, those are those are theexamples.
Um a lot of it it's reallyunique, I think it's like really
unique to the individual andlike what they need.
Um I I worked with a lot of Iworked with one fellow who
wasn't an attorney, but one ofhis um one of his challenges was
(29:57):
basically it was an outlook anda mindset.
Mindset and lim and limitingbeliefs.
So we worked really hard onlimiting beliefs and sort of
arguing against these automaticlimiting beliefs that would have
that would occur when somethingwould happen.
So for example, if if somethingdoesn't go well, if there's a
(30:19):
setback at work, he wouldautomatically and really it's
subcon, it's like subconscious.
I mean, some of these, some ofthese are beliefs that come from
childhood, some of them comefrom prior adult experiences.
But the belief might be like, Istink at public speaking.
Oh my gosh, or I I I stink atthis.
I'm bad at work.
I'm like, I'm not good at this.
(30:40):
I'm gonna get fired.
And that automatic belief willcause consequences in terms of
your behavior and just yourdemeanor and your emotions.
And and usually it's prettyunhelpful.
So arguing against thoselimiting beliefs is incredibly
helpful.
The um going back to our lawyerfriends, like the issue
(31:01):
spotting, like the the fact thatyou're seeing, you're like, oh,
that's a limit, that's a limitedbelief.
Like that, I'm not goingautomatically from like the bad
event to like I am sad.
There's something in between.
And if you can disrupt thatequation, it's actually pretty
profound.
Like the consequences changeprofoundly because you're not as
(31:22):
um, you're not reallycatastrophizing, for example.
So that's just one example ofhow being open to spotting that
can really make a difference inyour everyday life.
And then kind of like over thecourse of your life, uh, it can
make a big difference.
SPEAKER_03 (31:40):
It's so interesting.
So it's like rewiring yourbrain, rewiring the pathways.
That's precisely what it is.
When I went back to workingafter my traumatic brain injury,
I started doing this thing whereI would talk to myself.
And I've actually shared this onthe podcast very early on.
I don't know if exactly what Isaid, but I started doing this
(32:03):
thing where I would look in themirror and just be like, you're
a good lawyer, you're smart,you're healed, um, you're happy,
you're healthy.
And I had heard it on, I think,the Mel Robbins podcast of like
speaking in the present ratherthan I'm going to be healed, I'm
going to be in a year, I'm goingto be.
(32:25):
And I did notice that it startedhelping me pull out of some fear
that I had of like when I wentback, would I would I be able to
process my work is verycomplicated.
And would I be able to handleit?
Would I be able to do, you know,I had a lot of trust and
(32:47):
confidence I had to regain afterwhat happened and what I went
through.
And so it was this funny thingof like I would do it in the
car, I would do it in thebathroom, just like anywhere.
And I truly believe it helpedme.
SPEAKER_00 (33:03):
Oh, I a thousand percent believe it helped you.
Yeah.
I think I think those um I meanit the fun the funny thing about
positive psychology andhonestly, like neuroplasticity,
like it works.
It just sounds so woo thatpeople just don't buy it.
And I heard someone, um, I hearda very well well respected
(33:27):
positive psychologist actuallyuh say, you know, um, you know,
ignore ignore all this at yourown peril.
It really works.
I mean, these are scientificallybacked, this is all empirical,
empirical science with studiesand you know, groups of people
that they have researched, andit actually works.
So you hear mantra and you'relike, oh my gosh, like eye roll.
(33:52):
And then you're like, thatactually helped me in my life.
Yeah.
It works.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_03 (33:57):
I want to talk a little bit.
I want to go back to the legalprofession a little bit.
Um, and I want to talk aboutpositive psychology in the legal
profession, but um, I'm gonnaread some scary statistics from
your book.
Okay.
So you you wrote Mindset Masteryfor Lawyers, and I read it, and
it was very good.
Also short, loved that.
Short, but a mini book.
(34:18):
Yeah.
So I part of the reason I wantto like share these is because a
lot of our listeners are notlawyers, and um, we allude to it
quite a bit on here, given mylife.
But you wrote a 2023 ALM andLaw.com Compass Mental Health
Survey of the legal professionrevealed that 71% of the 3,000
(34:41):
attorneys surveyed experiencedregular anxiety, and roughly 38%
dealt with symptoms ofdepression.
When asked about specificindicators of mental health
challenges, more than 50% ofsurveyed lawyers said they felt
a sense of failure orself-doubt, lost emotion, felt
increasingly cynical andnegative, and had decreased
(35:02):
satisfaction and sense ofaccomplishment.
More than 60% said they feltoverwhelmed, irritable, and
exhausted, or struggled toconcentrate.
More than 76% of surveyedlawyers blamed their work
environment for these problems,citing billiable hour pressures,
the inability to disconnect andlack of sleep.
But 49% of lawyers also reportedfeeling that mental health
(35:25):
problems and substance abusewere at a crisis level in the
legal profession up from about44% in 2022.
And I actually don't know whatthe current substance abuse
stats are.
Um they're very widelyavailable.
We've heard them all.
Um and I I think there's a hugeproblem in the legal profession
(35:46):
of mental health.
I've known multiple attorneyswho've committed suicide.
It is not unusual for us to hearstories.
And I just think I don't knowhow much people outside of the
legal profession, I think theyunderstand like it's a hard
profession.
We all joke about it, we knowabout it, but the actual
(36:07):
statistics are terrifying.
And when people ask me if theyshould go to law school, I
generally say no.
Not unless, one, you can do itdebt-free.
And two, you have a very, veryclear goal of what you're going
to do with it.
Yeah.
And three, if your identity isrooted in something solid.
Yes.
Because I just fear for whatthat can do, especially,
(36:30):
frankly, to women.
I agree.
So I'm curious, I mean, Iobviously I just I have a lot of
thoughts on where it's allcoming from.
There's a lot of other stats,but how do you feel that your
work and like positivepsychology could help start to
create some change in the legalprofession?
SPEAKER_00 (36:51):
Yeah, great question.
Um, and it's interesting becausewhen I when I I will speak at
law firms and um will consultwith law firm leadership
periodically.
Um I speak at law firms quitefrequently.
And no like those stats that youjust recited, like they're not
(37:11):
no one is phased by themanymore.
SPEAKER_02 (37:13):
No.
SPEAKER_00 (37:14):
That's that's the awful thing, right?
Like everyone's like, yeah, ifyou have spent any time in the
legal profession, you are notsurprised in the least by this.
Um I I am very quick to telllawyers in particular, and
especially when I'm speaking infront of a group, because of
course you you don't want thingsto be taken the wrong way, and
(37:34):
you know, you get a comment atthe end.
I'm very quick to say thatpositive psychology is by no
means like a panacea, like, oh,you know, like just do perma and
everything is gonna be great.
That's that's not at all what Imean.
Um, you know, if you have, well,I think everyone needs a
therapist, like literally.
I think the world would be awonderful place if everyone had
(37:54):
a therapist.
Um, but if you are sufferingfrom depression or anxiety, um
you should seek therapy and youshould seek help for substance
abuse.
Oh my gosh, a thousand percent.
What I think is beautiful aboutpositive psychology and what
gives me hope and a lot of myclients a lot of hope is
(38:16):
honestly the agency that itprovides.
Like the concept that you havethe ability to impact your own
fulfillment to me was likemind-blowing when I when I first
learned about positivepsychology.
Um, I I was I was going througha particularly difficult time.
(38:37):
Um, and I I think it was justjust such a breath of fresh air
to to learn, like, oh, like I Iyou're telling me that I can do
these things, and it's it'sreally all within my control.
Like I to a certain extent, likeI can impact my own happiness um
profoundly by doing certainthings.
(39:00):
Um, I mentioned this in thebook, but there's a positive
psychologist um named SoniaLubermirski, and she wrote a
book called The How ofHappiness.
And she researched, shebasically measured happiness um
over long periods of time withdifferent different groups of
(39:21):
people.
And she came up with somethingcalled the um, I think it's a
40% principle or the 40% theory.
And basically, what she came tounderstand was that if you look
at a person and their and theirmeasurable happiness, meaning
the happiness that they are ableto articulate, and you look at
them over a long period of time,50% of their of their happiness,
(39:45):
of their contentment, theirfulfillment is kind of a genetic
base uh baseline.
It's kind of a set point.
So think about that.
Like, you know, if if you andyour family members all are, you
know, at a they sh you share asimilarity in terms of affect
and fulfillment, that's maybe athing.
(40:07):
Okay.
So a lot of it is heritable.
40% uh 10%, excuse me, 10% ofmeasurable happiness are life
circumstances.
And that I I I'm always like,take a moment to just let that
sink in for a moment.
Because we put so much on lifecircumstances.
So when I get that job, when Iget married, when I get the uh
(40:30):
the house, when I get to buy thehouse, when I get to buy the
vacation home, right?
It's it's like the hedonictreadmill of like always, you
know, need needing more andmore.
Um, that's only 10% of these,this you know, wide swath of
people they they were followingfor years, only 10% of their
happiness was based on the lifecircumstances that they thought
previously was gonna make themso happy, right?
(40:53):
40% if we're doing the math,right?
40% is left.
And that's intentionalactivities.
Okay.
That's crazy to me.
And that's where the hope for mecomes in.
Intentional activities are theway you think.
Yes, that's at that'sintentional.
That's an activity.
That's an intentional activity,how you think.
Um, and then just habits anddifferent things you can do,
(41:14):
interventions, things you can doon your in your daily life to
impact happiness.
So 40% of your happiness you canimpact by the way you think, and
that's where mindsets come in.
Um, and and the activities youdo on a daily basis.
SPEAKER_03 (41:29):
I mean, I think that's very encouraging to hear.
Um, do you have any activitiesthat you could share with our
audience?
Like very just like, hey, youcould go forth, go forth
tomorrow.
SPEAKER_00 (41:40):
Yes, a very brief one, and it's like the best one.
Um, and and positive psychologyfolks love it because it's easy
and um it's the impact is nextlevel.
So it's focused on gratitudebecause gratitude is the one uh
trait, attribute that a personhas that can really impact them
(42:01):
so profoundly.
I mean, it's so profound thateven your like cardiovascular
and immune um system are willwill see a response.
Oh wow.
It's that's how big a dealgratitude is.
Again, this is um, you know,ignore this at your own peril.
That then Barb Barb Fredericksonsaid this on a Zoom call I was
(42:21):
on a couple of days ago.
Um, and she's this amazingpositive psychologist.
Ignore this at your own peril.
Um I and I say this to the folkswho are like a gratitude
journal, so that sounds lame.
Like, okay, well.
Um, so this one particularactivity is called What Went
Well.
And it is literally before yougo to bed every night, write
three things down in a journal.
(42:44):
Three things that went well thatday.
SPEAKER_03 (42:46):
Okay.
SPEAKER_00 (42:47):
And these can be big things, these can be like I
closed the deal, I bought ahouse, or it can be little
things like my pumpkin spicelatte was delicious.
It was the weather was great,that kind of thing.
And you do this um consistentlyover the course of a week or two
weeks, and it's easy.
You want to keep doing it, whichis neat.
(43:09):
Um, it can really impact youroutlook.
Um, I'll say it's hard and it'shard.
Like on days when I'm having abad day in a cole, I'm like, I
don't know what this is not,this is dumb.
This is straight up dumb.
But it really is helpful to gothrough the day and be like,
well, this day was a dumpsterfire.
And yet, you know, I fin I sentthat email that I'd been waiting
(43:31):
to send for like two weeks.
That was that was, you know, oneof the shining moments of my
day.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_03 (43:36):
What went well writing three things each night?
Okay.
I will I will commit to doingthat.
Do it.
And I will report back to theaudience.
Should I do like two weeks?
Do two weeks, two weeks.
Okay.
I will do it.
Good.
Um, what is something you'reobsessing over lately?
Um, I'm obsessed.
SPEAKER_00 (43:56):
Um I am I'm in a I'm in a health mode.
I'm like, I'm in, I'm focusingon health.
So I have been obsessing overlike functional health and sort
of I don't know, vitamins andsupplements.
I'm also, Nicole, 45 and I'm inperimenopause.
(44:18):
So I need all my supplements.
Yep.
And I so I'm in that stage oflife life where this makes so
much sense.
Like I need all my supplementsand I need, you know, th random
things hurt.
So like so I'm like, yeah, I'mgonna focus on my health.
So um, you know, just justnavigating like what I'm eating
that perhaps is not like doingdoing well for me.
SPEAKER_03 (44:40):
Yeah.
I have a book for you offlinenow because I've already shared
it many times.
So that's what I'm obsessingover.
Um that's understandable, yeah.
Um, I am obsessing over how tonot stress as much.
I noticed it this week.
Um I so when I wake up in themiddle of the night and I can't
(45:03):
fall asleep and I startcleaning.
Oh no, it's a sign.
And that happened Friday.
So I was like, uh-oh.
I have some ideas.
So I'm like really trying totake an inventory of what my
next two weeks look like andquiet, get quiet.
Quiet.
Exactly.
The warning signs are going off.
(45:23):
So we'll figure it out.
Um, and do you have arecommendation for our audience?
SPEAKER_00 (45:29):
Yeah.
And I don't know if this isoriginal, but I've been I have
been watching The Gilded Age.
SPEAKER_03 (45:33):
Do you watch Guild?
I have not, but I've heard goodthings about it.
SPEAKER_00 (45:37):
It's really good.
Yeah.
It's it's the first episode isslow and then you're just
hooked.
Okay.
Um, and then I tried to get myhusband into it and he was just
not into it.
So it's it has been my treadmillshow where I don't walk and I
watch it, and it's fantastic.
And the outfits are just nextlevel.
Okay.
SPEAKER_03 (45:54):
I think I heard it like um not Bridgerton for US,
but the because right, it's inthe US.
Yes, right, about likeVanderbilt or something.
No, sexy.
SPEAKER_00 (46:03):
But it's not sexy.
Okay.
Downtown Abbey-esque.
Yes, it's very downtown Abbey.
That's how someone described itto me.
Okay.
Um it's it's but also likethere's like a little bit of
Bridgerton.
It's again, it's not sexy, butit it is like there is um,
there's there's romance andlike, you know, mayhem.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_03 (46:22):
I I'll add it to my list.
So my recommendation is more forour Nashville contingent.
Um, I go to the Richland FarmersMarket almost every week and
Hidden Holler Farms, they are sogood.
I get my eggs from them, and Ican't eat eggs that aren't
local.
And so I I love my eggs.
(46:43):
The guy's super nice.
He started recognizing me, andthen they have really good like
chicken breasts and everything.
Wait, where is so where is it?
Uh Richland, you know, do youknow the Richland Farmers Market
off of Charlotte Saturdays from9 to noon?
I wasn't getting super busy.
SPEAKER_00 (46:58):
Okay, no good to know.
SPEAKER_03 (46:59):
Yep, so they're great.
Someone had recommended it tome, and like there's always a
long line, so I try to get thereearly.
Oh my gosh, I love so I love thefarmers market.
I do too.
Is I like it better in thespring or fall because it was
really hot yesterday and you'rejust like standing in all these
lines.
The weather's not okay.
(47:19):
No, it's it's what'd you say,97?
SPEAKER_00 (47:21):
It was yeah, it was like it was 90.
Well, we did our Christmas cardphotos yesterday, which was
insane.
So we I I got my childrendressed up in um like sweaters
and like corduroy outfits.
And oh, I'm sure they'reliterally not literally, but
that was the vibe.
It was like, okay, we're youknow, it's Merry Christmas, and
it was it was 92 degrees.
Oh my gosh.
(47:42):
Well, what are you lookingforward to this week?
Um, I I'm looking forward to aJuno event that we have on
Friday.
I'm going to.
Oh, I love it.
I'm so excited.
Yeah.
So we have um a speaker seriescoffee event on Friday morning.
And my good friend um and Junoboard member, uh, Nadine Zach,
will be um speaking.
(48:03):
And she is talking about leavingthe corporate life and starting
your own business and her exyeah in that.
It's it's pretty salient to manyJuno members and her experience
um doing that herself.
And she left corporate HR andhas launched her own HR company,
and they are blowing it out ofthe water.
(48:25):
I mean, she is, they are so theyare just doing it really well.
Cool.
She'll have a lot to share.
SPEAKER_03 (48:30):
I'm excited about it.
Yeah, unfortunately for ourlisteners, that will be passed.
So look for other Juno events inthe future.
Yes.
Um, I'm really excited becauseI'm going to a cabin next
weekend with my friend, andwe're going down by South
Cumberland State Park so we cango hiking and everything.
Oh, I love that.
And I love that park.
So it's gonna be very quiet.
Good nature.
(48:51):
Exactly.
Quiet nature waterfalls.
I'm excited.
So um, where can people findyou?
SPEAKER_00 (48:58):
So let's see.
So you're mindsetcoach.com orJunoWomen.com.
And then I'm also on Instagram,and it's Jackie.cascerano.
And my very long Italian lastname, thanks to my husband, is
C-A-S-C-A-R-A-N-O.
So Jackie.cascerano.
(49:19):
Okay.
SPEAKER_03 (49:20):
We'll make sure to link it.
Get sense if you don't have togo Googling that.
Well, thank you so much forbeing here.
Thank you very much.
This is so fun.
Great.
I always want it to be fun.
So um, and thank you guys forlistening.
Please follow us wherever youlisten to podcasts, and make
sure to subscribe to our YouTubechannel.
I'll see you next week.
The end.
(49:40):
Thanks for listening to mycrunchy zen era.
Please subscribe and leave areview wherever you listen to
your podcasts.
This podcast is produced by me,Nicole Swisher, and my good
friends Summer Harcup and LizCoulter.
Editing is by Drew HarrisonMedia, and recording is done by
Logos Creative in Nashville,Tennessee.
Thanks for hanging out.
(50:00):
We'll be back next week.
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