From Ball Speed To Bogey Myths: A Coach’s Playbook For Everyday Golfers

Send us a text

We welcome Coach Ryan to talk speed training, wedge flight, and the stats that set sane expectations, then dig into course management that trades hero shots for lower scores. Mindset threads through it all: reframe misses, practice with feedback, and make boring golf your superpower.

• winter driver speed plan and ball speed goals
• launch, spin, descent angle and carry distance
• PGA benchmarks for 100–160 yards and putting
• expected strokes to hole out and make rates
• low-flight wedge technique and grass effects
• identity, mental coaching and practice habits
• course management at Centennial and tee selection
• Tiger Five scoring rules adapted for amateurs
• par-five second-shot strategy and ego checks
• lag putting targets and three-putt prevention

Episode Transcript

SPEAKER_00 (00:14):
Welcome to the My Golf Source Podcast.
Welcome to My Golf Source.
It's Darren, and uh we're gonnado things a little bit different
today.
Some would say maybe oppositehanded.
Yes, the lefty is in the house.
Ryan uh coach Ryan is sitting infor Noah today because Noah is

(00:35):
uh eating dinner with the familyand playing golf and soaking up
the rays on this on the beach inMexico.
How's he doing?
You talk to him today?
Uh I have not taught.
No hablas.
Uh no hablas is panel on Noah.

SPEAKER_03 (00:48):
No.
No, I have not uh a couple textmessages, but that is about it.
Uh if I was in Mexico, Iwouldn't want to deal with work.
So I'm hoping I'm hoping that heseparates himself.

SPEAKER_00 (01:05):
I I just got a text from him.
Now he's all I'm at dinner.
Who's on the podcast?
Say enjoy dinner and uh have funin Mexico.
So um you spend what 90% of yourtime here at the golf garage
coaching, right?

(01:26):
Yeah, sometimes 99% of my time.
Yeah.
99% and the other 1% uh workingon your own game.
Working on my own game.

SPEAKER_03 (01:34):
Yeah, I like to, I mean, I'll do other things too.
But yeah, I work on my own gamea lot, actually going through
some doing some speed trainingright now.
Um, trying to get some ballspeed numbers up a little bit
throughout the winter.
Where were you at and what'syour goal?
So about I started this programabout five weeks ago with my
trainer Scott Robinson.
Um and uh average, like my gamerswing that I would use on the

(01:58):
course was about 165 ball speed.
If I was cranking it as hard asI could, um 168, 169, 70 on the
absolute top end.
Now I feel like my gamer speedswing is up about four miles an
hour, maybe three and a half,four miles an hour to 168, 169.
And my my max right now has been176 that I've hit.

(02:21):
So I've I've gone up six in thelast five weeks.
What's your goal?
Goal is 180 by the end ofJanuary.
As your game speed.
Uh, game speed I'd like to have75 and full go would be 80.
Now we'll reassess reassess atthe end of January, but that's
where I'm at right now.

SPEAKER_00 (02:37):
With your technology and a hit on the center of the
club face, what does that equateto?

SPEAKER_03 (02:44):
Yeah, so that's uh for me to get 180 ball speed.
If I hit it dead center on theface, I gotta be swinging the
club 120.
Um that's gonna make ball speedgo that's gonna make ball speed
go to 180.
That's the the equation.
It's it's ball speed divided byclub speed.

SPEAKER_00 (02:59):
And this is with the driver.
With the driver, yeah.
What does that equate todistance-wise?
If I so a couple of I mean sealevel conditions, yeah, let's
say say you're hitting a vacuum75 degree day, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 (03:08):
Yeah, in a vacuum.
Uh and it so like if you launchit somewhere around 13 to 14
degrees and you keep the spindown low two thousands.
Uh, if you swing at 120, you hitthe ball speed 180, 180, you're
gonna carry that a little northof 300, uh, somewhere around
305, 310.

SPEAKER_01 (03:24):
Okay.

SPEAKER_03 (03:25):
Yeah.
So, but that that can vary basedon spin, hit location, launch,
and curve.
What type of ball you're using,what type of ball.
What conditions you're in.
Yeah, absolutely.
Wind, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Yeah, launch angle and andattack angles uh do play a lot
of role into that.
So it's been really cool thelast couple weeks, um, you know,
really going after driver swingsand then seeing the results on

(03:47):
the sim, uh, feeling like, allright, what was that golf swing
and what did it produce?
What's that launch and how doesthat spin equate to the carry?
And then try something a littledifferent on the next one.
Try to not hit it as high, forexample.
Um, and then see how the launchangle comes down, if the spin
stays the same, or if itchanges, and then what does that
do to the subsequent carry?

(04:08):
Uh, also how much is the ballcurving?
Because that's gonna, I mean,sometimes eliminate some of the
or minimize some of the currentthe carry.

SPEAKER_00 (04:15):
So you are just a wealth of knowledge, obviously,
in your in your playing abilityand in your coaching ability.
And I know you like to share alot of stats with your students.
Yeah.
Always people eat this stuff up.
Always enlighten us.
Yeah.
Tell us a first of all, tell usa couple stats that make the

(04:36):
average golfer feel good aboutthemselves.

SPEAKER_03 (04:38):
Yeah, I mean, one of my absolute favorites is uh from
2000 to 2002.
This is the tiger stat, uh, from100 to 125 yards, which is a
sand wedge, maybe a gap wedge, alob wedge for Tiger.
For most pros, obviously, butfor Tiger in that 2000 to 2002
year range, he hit the green 80%of the time with a wedge.

(05:02):
And that means that he missedthe green 20% of the time.

SPEAKER_00 (05:05):
So from how far out roughly?

SPEAKER_03 (05:06):
100 to 125.
Wow.
So in that 25 yard range, hemissed the green one out of
five, five times, but then I goout and play with, you know,
your average, you call it afive, call it a 10, call it a 20
handicap.
They miss the green from 100 andthey're upset.
Right.
I mean, it's like you can't be.
You literally can't be.

SPEAKER_00 (05:26):
Uh a lot of people are ups upset if they're more
than five feet outside the pinfrom a hundred yards.

SPEAKER_03 (05:31):
Yeah.
Um, I mean, on the PGA tour froma hundred yards, they average
hitting the ball to abouteighteen feet five inches.
Yeah, they're gonna hit onescloser and they're gonna hit
ones farther, but they're goingto average about eighteen and a
half feet from a hundred yards.
And uh when you when you look atthat, that's just you know,
golfers upset when they hit itto 20 feet from 100 yards.

SPEAKER_00 (05:52):
What percentage of those 18-foot putts go on the
hole on the PGA tour?

SPEAKER_03 (05:57):
From the putts?
From from 18 and a half feet.
I want to say that's somewherein the 15-20% make range.
Um yeah, I mean it's it's not alot.
Um statistically, it's luckywhen you make a putt like that,
right?
Right.
It is uh because you don't makeit very often.
And um yeah, that's just what itis.

SPEAKER_00 (06:16):
I bet those statistics really change at
about the six-foot mark betweenthe PGA players and amateurs.

SPEAKER_03 (06:24):
Yeah, they do.
Um you're talking you're kind ofgoing into like the the strokes
expected to hole out um number,which is a really interesting
number that I think golfersdon't really grasp.
Uh, for example, uh afive-footer on the green, PJ
tour players average 1.26strokes to hole out.

(06:45):
So so what that means is theymake it about 85% of the time.
So they're gonna have a fivefeet.
Yeah, they're gonna have oneshot to hold out, and then
sometimes they're gonna have twoshots to hold out, right?
You average all those times.

SPEAKER_00 (06:56):
Round that up.
So nine out of ten putts arewill go on the hole.

SPEAKER_03 (06:59):
Pretty much, yeah.
Maybe just under nine.

unknown (07:01):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 (07:02):
And then uh the the 15 handicap's gonna average 1.59
strokes to hole out.
So they're only making that putt60% of the time.

SPEAKER_01 (07:12):
Okay.

SPEAKER_03 (07:12):
So there's a huge difference in a five-footer for
the PJ tour and a and a 15handicap golf street.

SPEAKER_00 (07:17):
We're at 18 feet, that gap is probably a little
bit more narrower.

SPEAKER_03 (07:22):
Um, at well, so at 30 feet away from the green, uh,
excuse me, at 30 feet away fromthe green, this is like on or
off the green, but 30 feet away.
Uh PJ Tour player averages 1.98to hold out.
So they're up and down a lot oftimes, right?
Don't make three very often fromthere, but they're chipping it
very close.
And then the 15 handicappedgolfers gonna average two and a

(07:44):
quarter.
So they're getting that ball upand down 25% of the time.
Sometimes they're making four,some but most of the time
they're gonna make three.
Right.
Right.
And so when you look at likenumbers like that, uh basically
I think you consider like how doyou or where are you gonna leave
a ball, right?
Obviously, you want to try tomake everything because then I
think your misses are closer,but you know, are you trying to

(08:08):
fly a shot to the hole and haveit stop fast?
I think a lot of people do thattoo much because it's really
cool, but statistically, you'renot gonna hit that ball very
close.

SPEAKER_00 (08:17):
I was walking through the golf garage
yesterday and watched you pickup your backwards putter or your
backwards wedge and chip oneright in the hole from what,
about 15 yards?
Yeah, yeah.
My backwards wedge, myleft-handed wedge.
Your left-handed wedge.

SPEAKER_03 (08:29):
It took me a second there.
I'm left-handed, it's okay.
Uh yeah, yeah.
I was uh, I think that wasactually I'd had a little
chipping contest with uh withToby the other day with your
son, and uh we we picked alittle anthill hole out there
for our first one, and I cannedthat one with a low shot, just
bounced it up, rode the spine,and and drained it.
And uh I think I crushed hissoul on the first hole there.

(08:49):
That was tough to watch.
That was yeah.
But it was a good littlechipping contest we had.

SPEAKER_00 (08:54):
And uh I'm glad I could be a witness to that.

SPEAKER_03 (08:57):
So yeah, it was um, but yeah, I mean, I think
statistically, like when youstart hitting and seeing shots
lower, uh, which is something Itry to get a lot of students to
do when applicable, hit the shotlow, make the ball roll, right?
Nothing rolls better than aball.
So why do we try to fly shortshots higher than we need to?

SPEAKER_00 (09:15):
Because we don't have confidence in reading the
grain.
Sure, absolutely.
So we want to take theundulation out of the equation
as much as possible.

SPEAKER_03 (09:24):
Yeah, and I think there's a time and a place for
that, right?
Absolutely.

SPEAKER_00 (09:26):
But you see like a triple break going on, you're
like, all right, let's justflight it and take take all
those breaks out of theequation.
Sure.

SPEAKER_03 (09:34):
Yeah, it's I mean, really, it's you know, it's
obviously all shot dependent,but like there are a lot of
things that I think pointtowards, you know, how do people
play smarter golf, uh, and justunderstanding like what the
actual stats are.
Because when we're when we'rewatching golf on TV, they they
only show the leaders.
Right.
Right?
They only show the people thatare hitting it closer than the

(09:55):
averages most of the time,right?
It's the highlights, it's thegood television, but they don't
show the people finishing laston the week, right?
They never show the people, eventhe guys that make the cut, the
guys and gals that make the cut,uh, if they're finishing last of
the people that make the cut onSunday, no one's they're
probably finished up beforecoverage is even started on TV
yet, right?

(10:16):
Right.
So you don't even see the peoplethat are shooting 77 on the PGA
tour every day.

SPEAKER_00 (10:20):
Right.
And it happens every day.
I read the leaderboard and andevery day.
I I you know almost inevitablywhen I look at the leaderboard
and start looking through thepeople who did not make the cut,
there's a plus eighty in there.
Yeah, for sure.
And occasionally I've seen somein the mid in the low mid-90s.

SPEAKER_03 (10:40):
Yeah, on the wildest days.
I mean, I think the theButterfield Championship they
just had, I think it was wasthat Bermuda, I think, in down
in Bermuda the last time acouple of weeks, yeah.
Yeah, last week, yeah.
Adam Shank won it.
Um but he uh but yeah, they werebattling 45 mile an hour wins.
Oh my god.
What's the high score on thattournament night?
I didn't even check.

SPEAKER_00 (11:00):
But that would be uh, I'm sure up there and but
you see this gap of the winneris for the four days is 12 under
par.
And one of the guys who didn'tmake a cut shot an 81 and a 92.
Yeah, right.
On the first two days, andyou're like, wow.
Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 (11:19):
There was uh yeah, it looks like there were some,
yeah, there are some 84s.
Uh some a couple a couple highscores in the in the high 70s,
low eighties every single day.
Yeah.
I mean, that's just yeah, that'swhat it's gonna be.

SPEAKER_00 (11:32):
So you are involved in part of this quest to help me
break 80.
Tell me about what we did withirons.

unknown (11:39):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 (11:40):
Or your evaluation was with me a couple of weeks
ago.

SPEAKER_03 (11:44):
Yeah, we did, we did the one that the first lesson,
the new student assessment.
And uh, you know, I think it'sit's probably something that's
if arguably not the most commonuh call it a swing flaw, it'll
just be brutally right.
It's right, it's uh it's anover-the-top, steeper downswing.
Um and and we address the setupto try to work on some tilts

(12:07):
with the body, specificallyupper body, and get you kind of
set up in a position to be ableto swing it from the inside on
the way down without withoutreally having to try very hard
to do it.
Like that's the goal here.
It's like I don't want to thatswing plane change is arguably
one of the hardest changes youcan make.
And if you're not doing itdaily, uh it becomes something
that is just flat out hard todo.

SPEAKER_00 (12:27):
And if you don't see yourself on video, there's no
way to tell you that you'redoing it.
Absolutely not.
I think uh that that was a toughpill to swallow.
I mean, I yeah, I I feel like Iknow that I don't want to I know
that I want to come inside out.
I know that I don't want to comeover the top.
I'm making a conscious effort tonot come over the top.
And I don't feel like I am,right?

(12:48):
But I see the video and I am.
Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 (12:50):
I think everyone would benefit, you know, saying
this from from experience too,but uh, I think everyone would
benefit from having a reflectivesurface somewhere in their
house, yeah, sliding glass doorat nighttime, uh, obviously a
mirror.
Um, but something where youcould watch yourself make golf
swing motions and not requireyourself to hit a golf ball

(13:11):
while without hitting hittingthe chandelier in your dining
room.

SPEAKER_00 (13:14):
Yeah, yeah, don't ceiling fans.

SPEAKER_03 (13:16):
Yeah.
Make sure your airspace isclear, right?
Yeah.
Um request out, yeah, requestpermission for the flybys.
You need to get those 14 footceilings in the next house you
buy.
100%.
But uh when you can start seeingthose things, you change your
perception in your mind of whatthe swing looks like, which
allows you to generate, I think,some different feels, right?
So then when you see it, youstart to believe it.

(13:38):
When you see it, you connect thevisual to the what's actually
happening.
So you're you're changing yourneuropathways, is what you're
doing when you're watchingyourself do it.
And uh, and I don't think peopledo that enough, right?
Specifically, specifically, ifyou could take the golf ball out
of the equation and you can workon motions at home without
having to hit shots, that's howyou really change your idea of

(14:01):
what the golf swing is.

SPEAKER_00 (14:03):
Now, I'm not the first person to have told you
this.
I just want to know why.
Noah's a big advocate of askingwhy.
I worked on my irons, youliterally added 15 to 20 yards
to my irons.
It's amazing.
When I hit the ball well now,it's I I'm 15, 20 yards further.

(14:23):
Since then, I cannot hit a wood.
Why?

SPEAKER_03 (14:29):
Um well, I would think something along the lines,
you know, maybe it's some ballposition.
Maybe I mean it's a new motionfor you too.
It's a new pattern, right?
So uh I always use the analogythat you've your your golf swing
from what it was, um imaginethat you built a house of
bricks, right?
And every time we do a lesson,or every time that you make a

(14:51):
motion in the new way we'retrying to make it happen, you're
taking one of those old bricksout, you're putting a new brick
in its place.
Now, right now you you built acastle of bricks, right?
And and uh when we did your ironthis is a big remodel.
Well, yeah, when we worked onyour irons, uh it was basically
like taking a cannon andshooting it at your at your

(15:12):
castle, right?
Your cat your castle's inshambles right now a little bit.
So and you kind of havedifferent towers, right?
So it's like we maybe that ironcannon knocked out the uh the
driver tower for for lack of abetter analogy right now.
But um, yeah, I would thinkthere's there's definitely
there's gotta be some ballposition going on.
There's gotta be it's a newpattern that your body isn't

(15:33):
really, you know, oh like superfond of yet, right?
It's just flat out, it's it's ait's chaos in a system when the
body hates chaos.
So uh you're gonna always youknow yours tend to revert,
right?
We're gonna always revert backto tendencies uh unless
otherwise like constantly beingchecked, unless they're
constantly being checked.

(15:54):
I know I have certain thingswith my setup with my golf swing
that I will always continue todo if I don't continuously check
them.
Right.

SPEAKER_00 (16:04):
I know at the top of my backswing exactly what's
gonna happen.
Yeah, true.
And where I feel it, where mycheck is on that are knees.
If they're too bent, if at thetop of the backswing I squat too
low to try to build someexplosive power, if if I if my

(16:26):
knees are bent too much, I knowit's I know I'm gonna top it
because I'm gonna push up toohard out of it.

SPEAKER_02 (16:32):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 (16:33):
And where my wrist in the back of my hand is
pointed at the at the top of theback swing, it's gonna tell me
whether I'm gonna hit the ballstraight, whether I'm gonna pull
it or whether I'm gonna sliceit.
You should just But by then it'stoo late.

SPEAKER_03 (16:46):
Yeah, no, you should just when you get to the top,
every time you should just makeit where your wrist is in that
straight position.
I think that'd be a really goodidea.
Easier said than done.
Well, yeah, I know.
Yeah, and and I mean also, youknow, you can have the best day
of your life one day and thenthe worst day of your life the
next day, right?
Like golf doesn't care that youjust had your best round.

SPEAKER_01 (17:04):
No.

SPEAKER_03 (17:05):
So uh, and that's why the game can be uh you can
either look at it like it'sfrustrating or it's challenging
or it's humbling or uh probablya million other adjectives.

SPEAKER_00 (17:14):
But I I just you know when I was in the corporate
world in corporate management, Ihad the I had the CEO, he'd
always say, You're only as goodas last month's financials.
Yeah.
And in golf, you're only as goodas your last round.
Absolutely.
Doesn't matter how great you'vebeen, you know, years before.

SPEAKER_03 (17:37):
Right.
Yeah.
I think no, and I I this issomething I've gotten, I think,
a lot better at.
It's uh I've always tied myselfand self-worth.
I've tied myself worth andidentity to how well I'm
playing, and I'm sure a lot ofpeople do, right?
In golf.
Right.
Absolutely.
You know, golf.

SPEAKER_00 (17:52):
Well, especially when you play at the competitive
level, it's it's your life.

SPEAKER_03 (17:56):
Yeah, absolutely.
I mean, you have you have peoplethat are, you know, they're
they're genuinely asking, theywant to know how you're doing.
Um so if you don't do well, youfeel like sometimes you let them
down, even though you don't, butyou do.
Uh you do feel that way.
And then so I think over thelast couple of years I've gotten
a lot better perspective.
Well, you know, my perspectivehas changed.

(18:17):
Um kind of through the actuallythe some of the mental coaching
that I've done with with Daniel.

SPEAKER_00 (18:22):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 (18:22):
Schuler.
Yep.
Um yeah, super, super smart, uh,really wise, and um can put some
things into perspective thatit's really kind of helped me
reframe identity, which has beenreally nice.
I mean, look at I if I use thatcomparison to how I look at golf
now, and I I feel like most ofthe time I'm a pretty rational

(18:45):
person, um, logical.
And so like when I go play golf,I I play golf, I I play two, I
play golf uh basically for oneof two reasons at this point.
Uh one's in tournaments andcompetitive competitive events.
Uh the second, I'm playing golfwith students, so I'm seeing how
they're doing on the golfcourse, and then I could use
those rounds to analyze and lookat all right, this is how I

(19:08):
think we really need to improve.
Um when I'm playing rounds withstudents, uh you find yourself
playing better because you'remore relaxed and yeah, there's
that.
And I I find that I turn off alot of thoughts, you know what I
mean?
Like I watch my students haveall these swing thoughts, and
they're just you know, so Imean, sometimes people do better

(19:28):
than others, right?
But it's uh they're alwaysthinking so much.
They're actively thinking abouthow to do things because some
might say overthinking.
Oh, absolutely.
You're going through a swingchange, which is a hard thing to
do, and you take that to thegolf course and it makes it even
harder.
So it could be frustrating,which is why I think people, you
know, they get they start takinglessons and they get worse.
They feel like they get worse,right?
Because you go out and play golfand you're only measuring your

(19:50):
score as this, you know, unit ofmeasurement for if it's good or
bad.
And so, yeah, you're goingthrough a change.
You're going through what I saidearlier was chaos in a system,
right?
So your body hates that.
You can't commit to one or theother throughout the round, and
you ultimately probably revertback to what old was, what
comfortable is, right?
And so you never allow thatswing set, that swing change to

(20:13):
actually like set in, right?
I mean, I remember in 2017 Iplayed a season on the Dakotas
tour, and I looked back at mygolf swing in 2017, and I'm just
like, how did that even work?
You know, because it just it wasit was so timing reliant, um,
handsy, vertical, not really onplane, doing whatever it wanted

(20:34):
to do on any given day.
I just had good timing with myhands sometimes, and I would hit
I would shoot good scores.
But then the next day it'd beall over the map.
So I in 2018, um, I dealt with alittle wrist injury.
Once that got better, I decidedthat I'm gonna take a little
time away from competitive golf,rebuild the golf swing.
That was the second half of2018, all of 2019.

(20:58):
I really don't even know.
I know I didn't play anycompetitive golf in 2018.
Might have played one or twoevents in towards the end of
2019, but it was it waseffectively nothing.
So 2020 comes around.
I've been working and grindingon this golf swing for a year
and a half, and all of a suddenI go out and start playing some
tournaments, and I found somepretty good success um here at

(21:18):
the local PGA level.
And you know, it was like, butbut look at the time that that
they put into that, right?
That was a year and a half.
It wasn't just like over thecourse of a winter, over the
course of a month.
And I mean, I can pretty muchguarantee you I was taking more
golf swings and doing moremotions than you know, my 20
handicapped students.
Right, right.
And and I hope that I can likeinspire them.

(21:40):
That's my biggest thing.
I think I I get this a lot fromfrom students and from some of
our other coaches.
They feel like I do a reallygood job at inspiring students
to practice because I know whatit's like to have to practice.
Um, I don't think I was justlike great at this game.
I know I've practiced a lot.
Well, and that will test yourlove of the game.
For sure.
I mean, you hear Scotty say itall the time, which is super

(22:03):
cool, but it's guy loves topractice, loves to get better.
Yeah.
Right.
And obviously that's goeswithout saying you have to have
that with everything.
But like golf is just you watchall these professional athletes
from their from their othersports play golf.
Some of them are terrible,right?
But then they get better andthey start to love it.
And they even love it whenthey're when they're bad, right?
Because it's a humbling thingfor them.

(22:24):
They're so good at their own.

SPEAKER_00 (22:27):
Yeah, you know, maybe enjoying a partake in a
couple of beverages.
Yeah, and you're in some of themost beautiful settings in the
world.

SPEAKER_03 (22:37):
Yeah, no, absolutely.
And so it yeah, golf, golf is areally cool outlet, I think, for
a lot of people.
And uh it is tough when you'regoing through changes to to see
that light, probably at the endof the tunnel.

SPEAKER_00 (22:49):
I think with a lot of student athletes, you see the
burnout factor come in.
Totally.
And and that's you know, whenyou're playing football and
you're practicing twice a day,and then you're in the weight
room once a day, and or you'replaying golf and or or swimming
or whatever, and and the burnoutfactor kicks in.
And that's where a reallytalented athlete goes, This

(23:11):
sport isn't for me.
Because in order to achieve thelevel that I want to achieve,
it's not gonna be fun anymore.

SPEAKER_03 (23:18):
Yeah.
Yeah.
Watched a handful of golfers Igrew up playing against um go
through that, and I heard theydon't really play much golf
anymore.

SPEAKER_00 (23:27):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 (23:27):
I grew up playing three different sports, and
baseball fell to the wayside inmiddle school.
Um more more so because it itwas gonna be the same season as
golf.
It was gonna conflict with golfseason.
So I I probably liked baseballthe most.
Uh I was better at golf and Ihad more opportunities in in
golf.
Um, played basketball in thewinter just to run around a

(23:49):
little bit and growing up on thecoast in Washington.

SPEAKER_00 (23:52):
My my son is obsessed with golf.
Without with golf, absolutely.
Yeah, he lives and breathes it.
With you know, we push him in alot of things.
I am hard on him in a lot ofthings.
Golf is not one of those.
Yeah.
If anything, it's Toby.
You need to do two hours moreschool today than golf today.

SPEAKER_03 (24:12):
I've been throwing the football with him a lot
lately here.
Just you know, just do somethingdifferent than different than
golf a little bit.

SPEAKER_00 (24:18):
Yeah, he's got a good arm with with the football.
Yeah, yeah.
He loves the sport of footballtoo, until it comes down to
actually making hardcorephysical contact with other
people.

SPEAKER_03 (24:29):
Getting leveled.
Yes.
Never played football, and I'mpretty sure my dad's pretty
happy about that.

SPEAKER_00 (24:34):
Yeah, I I I've been there.

SPEAKER_03 (24:35):
It can hurt.

SPEAKER_00 (24:36):
Yeah.
It can hurt.
Yeah.
And sometimes your knee pops orlocks up funny, and you're like,
oh yeah, I played football.
Yeah.
That's why.
That's why it does that.
Yeah.
So getting back to the wedgething, and then I want to get
into more statistics again,because the statistics are are
just cool.
Um you talk about key hittingyour wedges low.

(24:58):
If I have a 60-degree lob wedge,you can open up the club face
and hit a flop shot.
If you hit it with your 60degrees of loft, it's gonna go
in the air.
How do you how do you fly a 60degree wedge low and still

(25:21):
control speed, speed, distance,spin?

SPEAKER_03 (25:26):
Yeah.
Yeah, so uh a good rule ofthumb.
And don't you have a 69-degreewedge, by the way?

SPEAKER_00 (25:32):
I do, and I use it exclusively inside of 30 yards.

SPEAKER_03 (25:35):
You know, that's like my least favorite club.
It's I love it, it's hilarious,but I love it's just it's such a
I think a hard club to hit.

SPEAKER_00 (25:41):
But it's not a hard club to hit.
It's a little putting stroke, itpops it in the air, and the
great thing about it is ifyou're 10 yards off of the green
and the pin is three yards ontothe green, I don't want to be
thinking I need to hit, youknow, I need to hit the rough
and roll onto the green.

(26:03):
I don't need to worry about aton of spin to get it to try to
back up on a flop shot.
I just hit the shot and I knowthe ball's gonna land and it's
gonna stop pretty quick withouthaving to do a lot of
manipulation in the stance, inthe swing with the club.
I just get up there and hit theball, and I know that wherever

(26:23):
wherever it lands, it's gonnastop pretty quick.

SPEAKER_03 (26:27):
I would say your second shot shouldn't have left
you in that short side of thecity.
Of course you wouldn't say that.

SPEAKER_00 (26:32):
Why can't you just admit that the 69 degree wedge
is amazing?

SPEAKER_03 (26:38):
No.
Um, I've never had one left,they don't make that club
left-handed, I don't think.
So I've never had the pleasureof trying one.

SPEAKER_00 (26:44):
Oh, I'm sure they do.

SPEAKER_03 (26:46):
Maybe they do.
I'm sure they do.
Uh Christmas is around thecorner, and my birthday is not
too far after that.
Okay.
If you think if you're thinkingof getting me some.

SPEAKER_00 (26:53):
I'll I'll get you one, I'll get you one of those.
Yes.

SPEAKER_03 (26:56):
Um, but going back to your original question, the
how do you fly to 60?
How do you how do you controlthe distance, the spin, uh keep
it low.
And keep it low.
Yeah.
So I mean, uh, there's a ton offactors that go into this.

SPEAKER_00 (27:07):
First of all, it's obviously close to club face.

SPEAKER_03 (27:10):
Deloft the club face, right?
So different than closing,because closing refers to angles
being left or right.
Um, so de-oft a club face, thatcan happen very naturally by
ball position, by shaft lean atimpact, right?
Um, how much handle is forward,how much more of your handles
forward.
It could you you could you couldvary um height by by grip

(27:31):
pressure.
Those those factors, the amountof the amount of hinge that you
allow, or the amount of call itrelease, how fast your club's
releasing through the shot.
Where where's your club going tofinish when you're done?
Low finishes, generally lowershots, higher finishes, higher
shots.
So, like we have, you know,we're lucky to be able to use
these sims and see the see thenumbers on every shot.

(27:52):
But my my general uh target forgolfers is to be able to launch
their wedges approximately halfof what the loft of the club is.

SPEAKER_00 (28:02):
Noah and I have talked about that before.
That's yeah.

SPEAKER_03 (28:04):
So it's cool.
PGA tour average launch on a ontheir 60 or 58 degrees, about
27, 28 degrees.
And that looks like a I mean,that almost looks like a bladed
shot to the average golferbecause they're launching their
wedges at like 39, 45, or 45degrees.
Like they're hitting theirwedges so high in the air.
And when you do that, it I mean,just flat out the ball's in the

(28:26):
air, and there's gonna be moretime for that ball to do
whatever it wants.
Wind toss it around.
The ball's gonna run up the clubface, it's not gonna shoot
towards the target, it's gonnajust go up.
So the spin's gonna bedifferent.

SPEAKER_00 (28:36):
But that's where amateurs like me go, the wind is
gonna affect my ball a whole lotless than the turf conditions
and the angulation on the green.
The wind is gonna affect, saythat again.
The wind is going to affect myball less than trying to bump it
off of the rough and take thatinto account and the different

(28:56):
um elevations and breaks on thegreen.

SPEAKER_03 (29:00):
Yeah, and I mean, are you talking chipping,
pitching, but kind of the moreof the fuller swing shots, I
think, right?

SPEAKER_00 (29:04):
Like I I'm just talking about your little
20-yard you know, I I'm only youknow, 10 yards off of the green.

SPEAKER_03 (29:12):
Yeah.
So I mean, I think everyone onthe higher level at the higher
level can hit the ball high, butthey try to make it go lower
when the shot allows for it.

SPEAKER_00 (29:20):
Okay, right?

SPEAKER_03 (29:21):
Like, yeah, if they got to pitch it over a bunker to
a short-sided pin, they're notgonna go low because then
they're not gonna get the ballclose, and then they're not
gonna try to just guess on abounce that's gonna, you know,
land in the rough.

SPEAKER_00 (29:31):
Is your ball with a lower flight generally gonna
check up quicker?
It can because you're pinchingthe ball a little bit more.

SPEAKER_03 (29:38):
Depends on depends on turf conditions, depends on
um angle of attack, loft thatyou're maybe delivering uh to
the ball.
But I mean, the the type ofgrass you're playing on is a
widely overlooked aspect of howmuch spin you're gonna be able
to produce on the ball.
Right.
You know, here in the northwest,it's pretty hard for us to get
spin on shots.
Um if you're not on the fairway.

(29:58):
If you're not in the fair, yeah,if you're not in the fairway.
Especially, but even if you arein the fairway, I think in the
northwest, generally speaking,it's it's a little more
difficult to get the ball tocheck.
Um, there's no grain up here forthe most part.
So, you know, you and you go youlook over at Bandon, right?
There's there's zero grain overthere, that's offescu or Polana

(30:18):
at this point.
Um, but those golf balls are alittle harder to check, those
greens are a little firmer, too.
You go to the south, likeFlorida or Texas, and you're
gonna see a lot of grain.
You're gonna see the golf ball,you know, grabbing and stopping
a lot.
Play on Zoja, it's the bestgrass you'll ever play on.
Um, I've only played that alittle bit softer grains, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 (30:38):
A little bit softer, but just they're cut tight, so
they roll fast, but just onimpact, they're very receptive.

SPEAKER_03 (30:44):
I mean, they're just they're just perfect.
There's just nothing to say,nothing else more to say about
them.
Zoja grass is the best.
Um but uh but yeah, it is, youknow, like the flighting shots
is is such a key, I think, to tobeing able to control your
distance.
Like if you're talking more oflike a you know, call it a 50,
60, 80 yard or a full swingshot.

(31:07):
Um yeah, I would talk in launchangles that that's gonna
influence spin.
Descent angle is a huge is ahuge number to look at too.

SPEAKER_00 (31:17):
Right.
Um I like you can have zerospin, but if it falls straight
down out of the sky, it's notgonna go very far.

SPEAKER_03 (31:22):
Right.
And uh generally speaking, ifI'm doing club fittings, I
actually learned this not that,you know, not that far back, but
um generally speaking, if you'redoing club fittings, like I'm
trying to get people to havetheir clubs with descent angles
of you know no less than 40.
Um, really 44, 45 would beawesome.

(31:42):
It's gonna hold a go, it's gonnahold a green all day.
And uh up here in the northwestin the winter in the winter, we
can get away with probably like38, 39 because it gets softer,
right?
Right?
But if you're playing in in firmconditions, you need something
like 40, 45 for the ball to comedown.

SPEAKER_00 (31:59):
And if you're hit and if you're hitting into
strong wind, dead straight intowind, and you hit a 56 degree
wedge, 105 yards, it's dar neargonna fall straight down out of
the sky.

SPEAKER_03 (32:10):
Might come backwards if you're playing at Bandon.
Yeah, it's gonna happen.
I mean, I you know, I thinktrajectory control is such a
huge thing when it comes tobeing able to learn how to
score.
Learning how high, like how highyou need to hit this ball.
Yeah, it's important to have astock shot, I think, for for all
your clubs.
But um, I mean that's why that'swhy I think you and you hear

(32:31):
this in the in the interviewsand in the announcers talking
about it with the PGA tour rightnow, but that's why Scotty's so
good.
He controls the flight of hisball and the spin of his ball
better than anyone else.

SPEAKER_00 (32:40):
It's funny, he's not the most interesting player to
watch.
Maybe one of the most boring.

SPEAKER_03 (32:45):
Yeah.
But how good is boring when itcomes to golf?
Boring's great.

SPEAKER_00 (32:50):
Well, I mean, you you watched Tiger and the way
that he would shot shape hisball.

SPEAKER_03 (32:55):
Yeah, right.

SPEAKER_00 (32:56):
The way that he would manipulate the ball flight
and and his club was exciting towatch.
Yeah.
More of an artist.
The way the way Phil Mickelsonwould, you know, hole it out of
the out of the craziest bunkershots with a super high lip was
amazing and exciting to watch.

(33:18):
Yeah.
Shuffler's boring because henever puts himself in a position
to have to do that.
He just plays boring, solid,straightforward golf with
literally near zero mistakes.

SPEAKER_03 (33:32):
Yeah.
Yeah.
You call Tiger and Phil maybe acouple of artists in their own
in their own rights, and then Ithink you call Scotty more of a
robot.
Right.
Dead center down the fairway,middle of the green.
Oh, maybe I missed it.
250.

SPEAKER_00 (33:45):
Never has put himself in a position to just
doesn't make a whole lot ofmistakes, right?

SPEAKER_03 (33:49):
And I was talking with a student the other day
about that.
Just, you know, I I went out andplayed with some students with
three with three students forthe first time um on Sunday.
And uh I had a pretty goodround.
I shot 63.
That was a fun day.
Okay.
And it was just didn't doanything special.
I had missed a couple greens.
I got up and down on uh one ofthe two greens I missed, and I

(34:10):
chipped in the other time.
So got lucky on that chip, andthere's there's definitely a
little bit of luck involved on afew of my shots, but it was a
boring day.
Where was this?
At Centennial.
Okay.
Yeah.
Um and uh and the whole time,like you know, I played with all
of them on Sunday and I hadlessons with all of them
yesterday.
And uh kind of a common theme inour conversation at the end of

(34:32):
it during our lessons were um,you know, how did you how did
you manage your shots?
Like, you know, where did youwhere did you hit if you hit a
bad T shot, that's fine.
I did I hit a couple bad Tshots, but then my second shot
got me back in the hole, right?

SPEAKER_00 (34:48):
I was and I was able to look pretty forgiving off of
the T-box.

SPEAKER_03 (34:51):
Absolutely.
So you're not, I mean, unlessyou're 90 yards offline and
you're in the tiled areas,right?
You're gonna be able to findyour ball.
Hopefully you have enough clubthat you can get to the green,
right?
But you know, like watchingwatching them maybe pull it,
because I didn't do any coachingout there, I was just watching.
That's all it was, was justobserving.
And uh watching them pull like athree-wood from uh side hill lie

(35:13):
on the rough from 240.
It's like, okay, well, you'reyou're not gonna get the three
wood to go two forty if you hitit off a T and perfect.
Um, so why are we pulling it offof a side hill lie where the
ball's two feet above your feetand you're in the rough?
You're gonna, I mean, this ballis not gonna go, you know, where
you want it.

SPEAKER_00 (35:29):
What if you hit a five iron and eighty-yard shot
versus uh three wood with a lotof risk to leave yourself a
20-yard shot if you hit itperfect.

SPEAKER_03 (35:38):
If you hit it absolutely perfect, but most of
the time, I mean, that's justgonna be it's a recipe for
disaster.
You know, you got 240 from aspot like that.
Look at it like try to make apar from that 240-yard spot,
like a four, right?

SPEAKER_00 (35:50):
Well, most of us, and I'm guilty of this too, on a
par four, we just think let'sleave our second shot as short
as possible.
On a par five, our first twoshots, we just want to go as far
as possible.
Even if it means, you know, on alot of the par fives, I mean, I

(36:11):
can get within if I if I can'treach it in two, I can get
within 30 yards.
Yeah.
On two.
But there's but there's so manymistakes made on that second
shot in club choice where I go,had I club down a little bit, I
would have left myself a 60 yardshot instead of that 20 yard

(36:32):
shot that I was hoping for.
Yeah.
Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 (36:35):
I mean, I think there there's something there's
a conversation I have probablyat one point or another with
just about every student, andit's when when talking about
scoring, um you know, how far doyou hit your driver on average?
And does that compete with howlong of a course you're playing?

SPEAKER_00 (36:54):
Right.
Okay, that becomes a big onebecause I'll tell you what, in
the last few weeks, since I havenot hit a wood at all.
Yeah.
I'm hitting the four iron off ofthe T-box.
I'm still able to reach italmost every green in
regulation.

SPEAKER_03 (37:10):
In our like sim leagues, or yeah.
And and we play courses that arelike about six thousand yards
most of the time.
Yeah.
You can hit that four iron what?
220?

SPEAKER_00 (37:21):
220 to 235 carry.

SPEAKER_03 (37:23):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 (37:24):
And so if I hit it well, if I if if I if I catch it
a little bit fat, I'll get it,you know, 195 carry, roll out to
210.

SPEAKER_03 (37:32):
Yeah.
And no, this is actuallyperfect, right where I was going
with this was, you know, the thethe PGA tour golfer, they they
average about uh, I mean, nowit's about 300 off the T.
So when they average about 300off the T, they're gonna play
golf courses that are about 730,7400 yards long, about 24 to 25
times longer than their T shots.

SPEAKER_00 (37:54):
So in our area, is Centennial the only golf club
that'll get you that distance?

SPEAKER_03 (37:59):
Um, it is.
I think maybe Eagle Point mightbe out there around 7,000, but I
think Centennial gets you up to74 from the tips.

SPEAKER_00 (38:06):
It does.

SPEAKER_03 (38:07):
So length lengthwise, it would it would
compare to a PJ tour course.

SPEAKER_00 (38:10):
I hear a lot of active golfers, you know, give
you know, shed a lot of youknow, hate on Centennial.
Don't understand why.
I I I don't I mean I mean theysay, oh, it's boring, it's wide
open, it's too forgiving, it'snot challenging, it's boring,
whatever.
What it may what it may beboring and forgiving in that

(38:35):
aspect, it will challenge you inlength.

SPEAKER_03 (38:38):
Yeah, it absolutely can.
I mean, yeah, there's the I meanwith with the exception of what
there's two pawns out there whenone of them's not even in play.
Um three pawns, I guess.

SPEAKER_00 (38:47):
Um whole ten, the pawns in play from the T-box if
you can hit over 220, 230.

SPEAKER_03 (38:52):
How far do you think I hit it off that T-box then?
210.

SPEAKER_00 (38:57):
I know you hit an iron off off of that T-box and
hole ten.

SPEAKER_03 (39:01):
I never hit it in the water on that hole, and I
never make double bogey on thathole.
So What do you hit off of theT-box in 10?
Whatever puts me to about 140yards.
Because that's short of thewater.
So I can have a I can have a gapwedge or a pitching wedge coming
into the.

SPEAKER_00 (39:16):
That's true, because I've been right down by the
water and I'm about a pitchingwedge, nine iron in.

SPEAKER_03 (39:21):
Yeah.
But the sec so if I'm playing,you know, if I'm if I'm playing
the white tees, uh, I think it'sI think it's 370 yards total on
the whole.
So I'm gonna hit a 220-yard,230-yard shot.

SPEAKER_00 (39:33):
Okay.

SPEAKER_03 (39:33):
If I'm playing the back tees, it's gonna be, I
think it's around 415 to 425.

SPEAKER_00 (39:38):
Okay.

SPEAKER_03 (39:38):
Then I'm gonna be able to hit a 275 yard shot.
That's gonna put me around 140.
It's not a super long par four.
It's not.
So And it's and there's bunkers.

SPEAKER_00 (39:47):
Maybe driver is not always your best bet off of the
T-box.

SPEAKER_03 (39:51):
No, and I mean, think of your ball flight,
right?
Generally speaking, you hit itleft to right.
So you're aiming at bunkers, andif you hit it straight, you'll
get over them, no problem.
But the second you put any fadeinto it, boom, that water is
just calm.
Yeah, yeah.
Saying, Darren, come here.
So I mean, I it's that'ssomething like it's uh come here
and drop the ball and be gettingthree out of here.

(40:12):
Yeah.
At least you know, bright sideof that is you just hit the
turnstand and you were able torefill your cooler and you know
at the end of the day, we'reokay.

SPEAKER_00 (40:20):
But and then it's then it's stacked up and you're
sitting around waiting anddrinking that drinking that six
pack that you just bought at theturn.
Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 (40:28):
Looking for the cart grill on hold twelve.

SPEAKER_00 (40:30):
But I love I love that course because it's it's
fantastic.
It's always in pristinecondition.

SPEAKER_03 (40:36):
Yeah, golf course is phenomenal.
Yeah, super fastest greens intown.
Yeah, they uh they get themmoving.
Um no, they do uh their wholestaff does a really good job.
I think all the golf coursesaround here do a really good
job.
Southern Oregon, like it'sreally good.

SPEAKER_00 (40:50):
I love Centennial.
It's it's home to a lot of threeputts because the greens are so
big.
Yeah, you could hit a green inregulation and still be 85 feet,
90 feet for the pen.

SPEAKER_03 (41:00):
Yep, yep.
And uh speaking of that,actually, I had when I was
working with with your son theother day, we were talking about
um putting.
We were talking about puttingand putting and distance putting
specifically, and how it's okayto leave certain putts short,
right?

SPEAKER_00 (41:15):
No short putt everyone in the hole, man.

SPEAKER_03 (41:17):
But here you go, here's some stats.
Get your putts inside 10 10 ofthe total first putt length, and
you are going to putt l puttbetter, you're gonna have less
three putts.
But when you have a 30-footer,you hitting that putt five feet
by is worse than leaving itthree feet short.
True.
Okay.
So Toby asked Unless it went inthe hole.

(41:39):
No, it's five feet by.

unknown (41:41):
True.

SPEAKER_00 (41:41):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 (41:42):
You know, I mean, you know how dead center of the
hole you have to hit it if youhit it five feet by with pace,
right?
Your hole is so small.
So understanding, I think whenit's okay to you know have a lag
putt that ends up just short,make your tap in easier than
having to stress over fivefooters all day.
Now all of a sudden you get tothe end of the round, and it's
like, I mean, if there is funny,there's I watched the US Open

(42:03):
back when I was like, it had tohave been 2008, 2009, something
like that, back when JohnnyMiller was still an announcer,
and he said something that juststuck with me.
He said, There's two things thatdon't last in life.
One, uh, dogs that chase carsand long putts for pars.
So I, for some reason, that onejust stuck with me, a Johnny

(42:24):
Millerism.

SPEAKER_00 (42:25):
And uh I heard Tiger Woodson in an interview once,
and and I I'm not gonna quotehim here.
I I don't remember exactly howhe worded it, but essentially he
was saying I would rather on apar four I would rather be in
the crud and leave myself a30-yard shot out of the out of

(42:49):
the crud than be in the middleof the fairway with a hundred
and thirty-yard shot.

SPEAKER_03 (42:57):
What do you mean?
That's that's what he said?

SPEAKER_00 (42:59):
Yeah, he said he yeah, that when when he was
asking like getting himself outof jail?
Well, he he was asked about whywhy he hits his driver so hard
and why he wants to hit his whyhe's focused so hard on hitting
his driver a long ways.
Yeah, is he said I would ratherI would rather be in the rough

(43:21):
or in the sand and have a30-yard shot than be in the
middle of the fairway with a130-yard shot.

SPEAKER_03 (43:29):
Yeah, so okay, I I see what you're saying when it
comes to like his t-shotselection.
Right.
Yeah, so no, that's or on apower five is second shot.
Yeah, that makes a ton of sense.
Tiger's actually got a greatlittle scoring method, if you've
never heard of it, called theTiger Five.
You ever heard of this?
No.
It's basically when you look atrounds of golf, it's what Tiger
would do.
He would go back and after theround, uh, use these five

(43:50):
categories.
And uh, and I'm gonna use kindof six like a tiger, tiger five
plus one, so six categories.
But you can basically pinpointall the strokes that you left
out there.
Um think of a round that maybeone of you know, think of one of
your better rounds that you'veever played.
You're still gonna have strokesthat you think, man, I should
have, I should have saved those.

(44:11):
I didn't need to spend those,right?
I shouldn't have done that.
I should have yeah, yeah.
It's always gonna happen, evenon your best round in your life.
So, number one is of the TigerFive, and here we're gonna do
the Tiger Six rules of scoring,no bogeys on par fives, right?
When you want to start, when youstart getting your scoring down
um to a to a single digithandicap level, and and some of
these are gonna apply to you,even being at what are you right

(44:32):
now?
A 14, 15, 16 handicap.

SPEAKER_00 (44:34):
If if my handicap fluctuates, okay.

SPEAKER_03 (44:37):
Well, we got it fluctuates weekly.
Yes, I'm I'm low teens.
Low teens.
Okay, so so no no bogies on parfives is number one.
Get out of your par fives withpars.
Um play plain and simple.
The better you are, be finishunder par on par fives, but
never bogey.
Uh number two, no double bogeys,right?
So minimizing your big numberstakes two times the amount of

(45:01):
birdies to make up for a doublethan it does for a single bogey,
right?
That's two versus one.

SPEAKER_00 (45:05):
But eagles are few and far between.

SPEAKER_03 (45:08):
Yeah, absolutely.
No, you're very, very rare.
So um yeah, figure out ways toavoid doubles.
Uh number three, no three putts,right?
This goes into distance controlputting.
This goes into good chipping.
Oh, and chipping, but hopefullyyou're not three putting after
after chipping it around thegreen, right?
That'd be a pretty poor chip,but yeah, absolutely.

(45:28):
Uh number four, no bogeys with anine iron or less into the green
in regulation.

SPEAKER_01 (45:35):
Okay.

SPEAKER_03 (45:35):
So be good with your scoring clubs.
Your nine-iron, pitching wedge,eight iron, uh, nine-iron
pitching wedge, gap wedge, sandwedge, lob wedge.
Okay, be great with those clubs.
I don't need you to hit a greenwith a seven iron.
I need you to get a ball aroundthe green with a seven iron.

SPEAKER_00 (45:50):
And I need you to hit a far enough T-box shot on a
par four to not need a seveniron.

SPEAKER_03 (45:55):
Yeah, for sure.
I mean, uh yeah, absolutely.
There's you know, I was I waskind of getting into it earlier,
but like for you to hit uh likefor for the average average
golfer who drives it about 245,for them to play a golf course
where they would have comparableclubs coming into holes as PGA
Tour players would playing from7,400 yards, the guy who hits it

(46:18):
245 should play a 6,000 yardgolf course.

SPEAKER_00 (46:21):
White T's at most courses.
Yeah, most, yeah, sure.
Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 (46:24):
And but like you Centennial just up the road, for
example, white T's are about 63,6,400 yards.
So that means just to compareyourself to uh having the same
clubs in the par fours as thetour player, you have to hit the
ball about 260.
But how many players play thewhite tees and they're hitting
it 210 off the T?

SPEAKER_00 (46:41):
Right.

SPEAKER_03 (46:41):
And then they're gonna shoot 92 or whatever
because they're just not gonnaget to par fours and two.
We're not getting up.
There's no par four on the PGAtour where players can't get
the.

SPEAKER_00 (46:48):
The only par four at Centennial that I really
struggle reaching in two fromthe white tees is 18.
That's a hard hole.
Yeah, well, you got bunkers downthe right and you got Drabble up
the left.
I I know they say hole three isthe highest handicapped par four
in the area.

SPEAKER_03 (47:05):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 (47:05):
I I'll take hole three any day of the week over
18.

SPEAKER_03 (47:08):
Yeah.
Yeah, 18's a hard one.
I mean, it always plays it's 440from the white tees.
It's into the wind most of thetime.
Um you're landing a ball.
You're landing the ball.
One of the two, yeah.
See in stars.
Hit two balls, see three balls,hit one.
Um, yeah.
So I mean, there are, yeah,they're and they're, you know,

(47:29):
like that for that.
There's like there are certainholes that just you know set up
to people's eyes poorly orbetter, you know.
Worse or worse or better.
Um, number five on the TigerFive turns into no blown easy
saves.
So that's like an easy chip fromoff the green.
And I know that's a relativething, but so you're chipping
from three feet off the green toa flag that's 20 feet away from

(47:50):
you.

SPEAKER_00 (47:50):
You should get it.
You better walk out that.

SPEAKER_03 (47:52):
Well, you should get the ball up and down, right?
So two shots expected to holdout from there.
That's an easy up and down.
It's not a pitch over a bunker,that's not an easy up and down,
but those would be easy up anddowns to whatever you'd
classify.
And the final one is no penaltystrokes, right?
So, so think about let me let metie a couple things that you
said in a little bit ago, thatlike whole tenant centennial,

(48:14):
right?
Where there is water up theright, it's 220 off the T.
You have bunkers off the leftthat are about 200 off the T.
You can play from the bunkers,that's okay, but you can't play
from the water.
Now, reference what you saidabout Tiger, how Tiger would
hit, he'd rather hit driver andbot and be 30 yards out from the
junk than uh lay back to 135.

SPEAKER_00 (48:33):
In the middle of the fairway.

SPEAKER_03 (48:34):
Yeah.
So that junk must be playable,right?
Maybe that's just longer rough.
It's not water though, right?

SPEAKER_00 (48:40):
And those guys practice out of the junk like
nobody else.

SPEAKER_03 (48:43):
Always, yeah.
And so when you're when you'relooking at how you're breaking
down a hole off the T-box, likeI like to look at, I mean you go
go from the green backwards,right?
Some people go from the Tforwards, but go from the green
backwards.
Where's the flag at?
Maybe what's my angle that Iwant to have coming into this
hole.
If I have bunkers that areguarding the right side of the
green and the pins on the right,I might want to come in from the

(49:04):
left and then be able just tohit it.
A nice safe shot over to theleft, not safe, but a smart shot
over to the left side of the ofthe green, on the green,
hopefully.
But you know, I'm not staring atthose bunkers from the right
side of the fairway if I wasapproaching the green, right?
So now I see the flag on theright, there's bunkers on the
right, I'm trying to hit a Tshot down the left, left center,
maybe, and then you know, if butif there's a bunker down the

(49:26):
left or water down the left,obviously plans will be changed.

SPEAKER_00 (49:29):
So even if you're a 20 handicapped golfer, it is
critically important to look atyour scorecard, look at your
yardage, know the shape of thehole you're on, know the
distance of the par four you'reon, even though you know you're
not gonna reach it from theT-box.
Yeah.
I mean, because that's gonnaplay into the strategy you use

(49:52):
if it's only a 305-yard parfour.
Yeah.

unknown (49:58):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 (49:58):
I mean the job.

SPEAKER_03 (50:04):
Yeah, no, 100%.

SPEAKER_00 (50:05):
It's gonna be it's gonna be a 56 degree or a gap
wedge out.

SPEAKER_03 (50:09):
Yeah.
I mean, I think the uh the youknow, the 20 handicappers got a
you know, they got their own umthey have their own battles uh
that the you know theprofessional golfer doesn't
have.
But but at the same time, youknow, just think if you if you
took the Tiger V and youadjusted it slightly for for the
for the 18 handicap for thebogey golfer.
Say instead of no bogeys on parfives, no doubles on par fives.

(50:31):
Instead of no double bogies, sayno triple bogies, right?
Um instead of no three putts, nomore than one three putt, right?
Like modify it based on onskill.
Um no bogies with nine iron orless into the green.
Maybe that's saying when youhave a a nine iron or less into
the green, your goal should bethe balls in the hole in four

(50:52):
shots from there.
At most, but maybe it's itreally should be three, right?
That would be the goal.
Because but the but the goal, Imean, it being three, that would
be what a PJ tour player woulddo.
If they're making a part with anine iron or less, they're
making a three from the fairway,right?
Um no blow, no, no, no penaltystrokes, that's gonna be a hard
one for the 20 handicapper.

SPEAKER_01 (51:13):
Right.

SPEAKER_03 (51:13):
Um, but at the same time, you know, you can modify
these rules, and uh when you'redone, yeah, look back at that
round.
You know, you last shots.

SPEAKER_00 (51:21):
It's funny too.
When we watch the PGA tour onTV, we're watching highlights,
we're watching little snippetsof each of the you know players
in the top 20.
Um with YouTube now, and some ofthese PGA tour players like
Bryson DeChambo having their ownYouTube channel, and you

(51:43):
literally get to watch them hitevery single shot on 18 poles
head to head with somebody else.
Um you go, wow, they're not asgood as I thought they were.
Well, they're one of the bestgolfers in the world.
Yeah.
But you see their misses wherewhen you're watching the PGA

(52:04):
tour on TV, a lot of thosethings never make it to air.

SPEAKER_03 (52:08):
Yeah, yeah.
I mean, the best players in theworld still hit balls in the
water, they still hit balls outof bounds, right?

SPEAKER_00 (52:13):
They still miss a four foot pot.

SPEAKER_03 (52:14):
They still miss a four foot putt.
Yeah.
Yeah.
So it's, you know, they're justthey're just a lot better at not
doing that, right?
Right.
They're their bad shots are uhare are still very, very good.
And uh I watched a videospeaking, like there was a uh
Max Homa was playing with someYouTube golfers a couple weeks
ago, and I saw a clip where heuh the one of the YouTube guy, I

(52:36):
think he was a uh used to be amini tour player, healed one, he
healed a driver off off the offthe T-box and hit it down the
fairway.
And uh the guy, the the guy waslike upset that he that he hit
the heel.
He was upset that he hit a had apoor strike.
Max Homo goes, dude, that's whyyou never made it.
And the guy looks at him, he'slike, What do you mean?

(52:57):
He's like, Well, if I heal oneoff the driver and it goes down
the fairway, I tell myself, wow,I'm so good that I healed one
and still put it in the fairway,rather than saying, Man, I'm so
bad that I healed it.
And yeah, it's a mental game.
Yeah, it's a reframe.

SPEAKER_00 (53:12):
Walking up to your next shot, no matter how bad
your first shot was.
Yeah, walking up to your nextshot with confidence and focus,
yeah, that you're gonna make thebest of it.

SPEAKER_03 (53:20):
Yeah.
I mean, yeah, the what's in Imean, all the cliches are so
applicable in golf, but likewhat's past is past, right?
Deal with the present.
Um, yeah, last shots in thepast.
And and so yeah, I think peopleobviously they dwell on that way
too much.

SPEAKER_00 (53:35):
Before we wrap this up, um run run through a couple
more statistics that areinteresting.

SPEAKER_03 (53:42):
Yeah, I mean, the uh the ones that we've talked
about, I mean, the putting ones,the uh the the strokes to hole
out, expected strokes to holeout, I think is always such an
eye-opening one because youknow, A, people never really
heard of it.
Um, but when you're when you'relooking at like a 400-yard hole,
for example, 400 yards away onthe T-box, the PJ tour player

(54:05):
averages 3.99 to 4.01.
So call it a four.
15 handicap averages 5.32.
Okay, so on a four-point on a400 yard hole, 15 handicap
averages a 5.32.
That means a lot of doubles inthere.
Yeah, they're gonna make a fewparts, but there's a lot of
fives, and there's a lot ofsixes to skew that to 5.3.
From 160 yards in the fairway,the PJ tour player averages 2.9

(54:29):
strokes to hole out.

unknown (54:31):
Wow.

SPEAKER_03 (54:31):
Okay, so that's them either hitting the green and two
putting or missing the green andgetting up and down, right?
That's what that is, themajority of the time.
But they're just barely betterthan it, right?
They're a couple, you know, theythey very rarely would make a
four because that's their nineiron coming in, right?
But the the 15 handicapper, andthis is maybe one of the bigger
disp uh disparities here, is the15 handicapper from 160 yards

(54:55):
away, which what is maybe aneight iron, a seven iron for the
most of them, uh 3.92 strokes.

unknown (55:04):
Wow.

SPEAKER_03 (55:04):
So if they hit a T shot down the hole, down a
fairway on a par four, leavethemselves with 160, they're
expected to average a 4.92 onthe hole, right?
Including the T shot.
So most of the time they'remaking bogey.
Yeah.
Most of the time they're makingbogey from 160 yards, but then
people look at that as a majorloss, right?
It's the worst thing in theworld that you just made bogey

(55:26):
from 160.
Not really.
That's like the PJ tour playerhitting it from about 200 yards
in the holes, right?
That's what they're doing.
That's from two and from 200yards.
Okay, sometimes a four isn't theworst thing at the end of the
day.

SPEAKER_00 (55:37):
And bogeys are most common in par threes, right?
Uh yeah, for the for thatreason.

SPEAKER_03 (55:42):
Yeah, they they have, I mean, that's why that's
usually why you have the thehighest, or I guess the lowest,
um, the easiest quote unquotehandicap ranks on on holes are
par threes.
Um, that's something actuallythat I think is really
misunderstood.
Um, when you watch scoringdifficulty for holes, like which
holes playing the hardest on thePGA and LPGA tours, they rank

(56:03):
them by scoring average, butthey're just comparing that
scoring average to all of thoseplayers in the tournament.
Right.
That's not how handicap on golfcourses is actually calculated.
Uh, people that do ratings forcourses basically take a poll of
a bunch of scratch golfers and abunch of bogey golfers, and then
they'll average out the scoreson those holes.
So number one handicap holes oncourses are generally par fives

(56:28):
or a long or a long par four.
The scratch golfer is going tohave more pars, you know, a few
bogey pars.
Yeah.
And and on par fives especially,they're gonna make they're gonna
make a lot of birdies too,right?
Right.
But the bogey golfer is gonnamake a lot of bogeys, a lot of
doubles.
So the discrepancy or thedifference in the averages of

(56:49):
this of this of the single ofthe scratch golfer and the 18
handicapped bogey golfer, thatdifference is gonna be wider on
the number one handicap holethan it would be on the number
two and the three and the four.
So the best example of this isBandon Trails, no hole number
12.
It's a 200 anything, dependingon where the flag is, it's a 220

(57:11):
to a 245-yard par three.
It's the 18 handicap hole.

SPEAKER_00 (57:16):
That's saying that the scratch golf That's a hard
green to hit from the T-box.

SPEAKER_03 (57:20):
The green is almost the size of a football field, so
it's really not the green ismassive.
Um, but and everything aroundthe green is short grass, so you
can put it from 30, 40 yardsoff.
But basically, what that'ssaying is if you took a hundred
scratch golfers and a hundredbogey golf, the difference in
those two averages is gonna bevery minimal.

SPEAKER_01 (57:40):
Right.

SPEAKER_03 (57:40):
Right?
Because you're gonna be you'resaying like the 18 handicapper
could hit a driver up there andtwo putt for par, right?
Right.
But the but the bogey golfer,the scratch golfer could easily
you know hit it up thereon upthere.
Yeah, and then they could threeputt from 90 feet, you know, and
make a bogey.
So it's saying that everyone'syou know, just more or less more
likely to make a bogey on thathole, most likely to make a

(58:01):
bogey on that hole than anyother hole.

SPEAKER_00 (58:03):
Because uh the the majority of tour players are
gonna be a closer shot in on apar four for the second shot
than they are from the T-Box onany par three.

SPEAKER_03 (58:13):
A lot of times, yeah.
Yeah, generally speaking.
I mean, you'll you have the500-yard par four nowadays on
the PJ tour, which is crazy howcommon that is.
Uh-huh.

SPEAKER_00 (58:20):
But Bry Bryson DeSambo said something that
really cracked me up he theother day.
He said something along thelines of your second shot on par
fives are what separate the menfrom the from the rest.
For sure.
Your decision making.
Yeah, absolutely.
He said that is the mostcontroversial shot on any golf

(58:40):
course where you're gonnastruggle with balancing ego and
strategy is on your second shoton a par five.

SPEAKER_03 (58:48):
Yeah, that's a good, that's a pretty good comment.
Pretty wise comment, I think.

SPEAKER_00 (58:52):
And and and I never thought of that.
I just that's any other golfshot, you know.
But the when I think about it,I'm like, yeah, he's absolutely
right.
You hit a really good drive,your confidence is high, you're
like, I'm gonna go for this intwo.
Yeah.
And you end up bogeying the parfive because you make a big
mistake and you try too hard andyou take too much club.

SPEAKER_03 (59:12):
Yeah, yeah.
And you hit it somewhere whereyou just flat out can't, you
know, and very versus gun.

SPEAKER_00 (59:17):
Now I think versus the strategy of taking a long
iron and leaving yourself 60yards short.

SPEAKER_03 (59:22):
Yeah.
I mean, it's there's a lot of uhdifferent schools of thought
would say, you know, do one orthe other.
You know, if you could, yeah,that we look, we've been talking
about expected strokes to holeout and uh proximities from
certain distances.
People you're gonna hit itcloser to the hole the closer
you are to the hole.
Right.
So from 20 yards, I'm gonna hitit closer to the hole than I

(59:43):
will from 200 yards.
Um, but even 30 yards, right?
From the from differentdistances, 10 yard increments,
I'll hit it to closer spots.
So if there's no water, ifthere's no trouble, what's your
decision making?
How do you weigh that process?
Yeah, absolutely.
Push it up there if you can, ifyou're not.
Going to lose the ball, push it.
If you're going to lose the ballpotentially, if you try to do

(01:00:03):
that, hit the five iron and thenknock a wedge on.
Make your par that way, or atleast, you know, no doubles.
Or up and down for birdie still.
Yeah, absolutely.
Yeah.
I mean, there's so many ways,like, you know, it's on course
coaching is so much fun becauseuh when I talk things out, I
make people look hopefully at atthe at the game in a different
way.
Um, because I look at it justfrom an aerial, like I try to

(01:00:24):
have like this aerialperspective of how do I see the
hole, how do I visualize where Iwant the ball to go, and then
just try to get the ball to goover there.

SPEAKER_00 (01:00:32):
But sometimes will you join us again this year in
the Davidstrah tournament?

SPEAKER_03 (01:00:35):
Absolutely.

SPEAKER_00 (01:00:36):
All right, 100%.
Where are we playing tonight inleague?

SPEAKER_03 (01:00:39):
We are playing uh Jack's Point.
It's a John Daly designed golfcourse in the south part of New
Zealand.

SPEAKER_00 (01:00:46):
They have a bar at every other hole.

SPEAKER_03 (01:00:48):
They they might.
And if you have a cool, I think,you know, 10k laying around,
jump on a flight and go playthis place because it looks
sweet.

SPEAKER_00 (01:00:56):
It does.

SPEAKER_03 (01:00:56):
Yeah, I'm excited.
All right, Ryan.
Thanks for filling in for Noah.
Thank you, Darren.
Happy to uh bring a littleleft-handed influence to the
podcast.

SPEAKER_00 (01:01:05):
I love it.
Let's go play golf.
Take care.